[Congressional Record Volume 141, Number 190 (Thursday, November 30, 1995)]
[House]
[Pages H13856-H13862]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                         U.S. MILITARY POLICIES

  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. White). Under the Speaker's announced 
policy of May 12, 1995, the gentleman from California [Mr. Dornan] is 
recognized for 60 minutes as the designee of the majority leader.
  Mr. DORNAN. Mr. Speaker, I said last night that I would come back 
with some other freshmen Members. Some of them are in their offices 
watching, so they may join me in this continuing special order on 
Bosnia. But I was not here during the Vietnam years. I came right after 
our Bicentennial election in 1976, and I remember my campaign 
consultant, he now is principally doing the best polling I have ever 
seen in the country, although he concentrates mainly on California. His 
name is Arnie Steinberg. That is his company name, Arnie Steinberg & 
Associates. He knew how deeply I felt about the loss of Laos, Cambodia, 
and the southern part of Vietnam south of the 17th parallel to vicious 
Communist conquerors. And he said to me, ``I will consult in your 
campaign, if you will promise me that in this entire year of 1976, you 
will not mention Vietnam.''
  I looked at him. I knew instantly what he meant, that Americans were 
exhausted and did not want to hear any longer about the tragic fate of 
people who wanted freedom so desperately in Southeast Asia. I made the 
promise to him, I would go through the whole campaign without 
mentioning Vietnam, and I did.
  I got elected in November of 1976, and within weeks, days, a House 
select committee voted to shut down their investigation as to whether 
or not Americans were alive in Indochina. Americans were alive in 
Indochina. We had left them behind in Laos, and there was a good case 
there were some left in the north, because we had an ex-Marine CIA 
agent who had been captured in Saigon when it fell to Communist armored 
units on April 30, 1975, named Tucker Gugelman, and he was beaten to 
death, tortured to death, over many weeks in the Saigon prison system. 
His screams were heard by other people that were later released, and he 
was alive when this committee was investigating. The committee for some 
strange reason was an even number of people, 10. It was 6 Democrats and 
4 Republicans, and when they voted whether or not to continue to be in 
existence when I was sworn in on January 4, 1977, the vote split 5-5, 
and the committee shut down.
  Two Democrats came over and voted with the Republicans. One of them 
is still here, Joe Moakley. The other is now a Republican, but he 
retired or was beaten by David Dreier, Jim Lloyd.
  Lloyd and Moakley voted not to shut the committee down. One 
Republican kind of had earned the right to be contrary, had the Navy 
Cross the hard way in hand-to-hand combat as a Marine in Korea, Pete 
McCloskey, left voluntarily in 1988 to run for the Senate seat won by 
Pete Wilson. He finished ahead of me in that 13-man race, I was fourth, 
he was second, Barry Goldwater, Jr., was third. But Pete McCloskey 
voted to should it down with 4 Democrats. One of those Democrats 
announced their retirement yesterday, Pat Schroeder. Another one is 
over in the Senate, fell in love with the Communists in Hanoi and is 
still making a case for them, and the other on Republican side, Tenny 
Guyer is now dead, died while he was chairman of the POW task force. It 
was this strange split. One Republican went one way, two Democrats came 
from this side. We shut it down, and we have been left with an agony 
ever since.
  This morning, here we are almost two decades later, 19 years later, 
and I chaired a committee, subcommittee hearing, my Subcommittee on 
Military Personnel, taking evidence again on what is called the 
comprehensive review of all the missing in Vietnam.
  Now, we have not resolved the missing from the cold war period, with 
all of our Ferret air crews around the periphery of the very, very evil 
empire where they shot down dozens of our planes and captured or killed 
on the ground or killed in the shutdown over 300 of our air crewmen. I 
do not think we ever killed a single Soviet pilot in any of their Bear 
aircraft intelligence-gathering missions or any of their fighters that 
went astray and crossed the border. We never murdered anybody. They 
murdered some of our lost pilots in cold blood and had no compunction 
in shooting down our intelligence pilots. There were Americans with 
Russian or Slavic or Ukrainian surnames that were full American 
citizens that were in camps overrun by the Red army in 1945 that 
disappeared into the gulag camps never to be heard of again.
  Korea is especially painful. In the Hall today in the Rayburn 
Building, while taking testimony on Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and 
about to go in at 2 o'clock to hear the Secretary of State, Warren 
Christopher, Secretary of Defense, Mr. Perry, and the Chairman of the 
Joint Chiefs, the man who came directly after Colin Powell, 
Shalikashvili, I am out in the hall looking at a prison picture, and I 
learned from my wife, Sally last night that the cameras cannot 
cooperate and will not come in for a closeup. But this is a very clear 
photograph, it must be taken with the very biggest cameras we had in 
our RB-29's, slant photographic imagery of a major north Korean prison 
camp called Camp No. 5. It is a huge facility. Across the Yellow River, 
this is the Yellow River I am looking at and it is much wider than I 
had ever expected, is a graveyard. In other words, they buried 
Americans on the Chinese side, and then there is a graveyard in the 
foreground on this side.

  In this camp, like many camps in North Korea, were Americans, called 
category 1 prisoners, known to be alive and healthy that were never 
returned from Korea. The major problem with Korea, and it seems that we 
in the Congress and in the Senate have convinced Clinton not to go into 
Bosnia under U.N. colors or U.N. flags, Specialist Michael Ngu, whose 
father I had the pleasure of meeting last Sunday, Daniel Ngu, he is 
being court-martialed for refusing to wear the U.N. blue beret and blue 
arm patch on assignment to Macedonia, where we have a blocking action 
of 494 Americans by last count. But in Bosnia, the troops that Clinton 
is moving in there as we speak, making a lot of the debate on this 
floor moot, they will go in under NATO colors, not under U.N. colors.
  Here is a haunting, excellent photograph, of very healthy American 
prisoners in this Korean Camp No. 5. Here is a banner in perfect 
English letters, ``soccer ball champions, No. 5 camp,'' and I cannot 
read what it says, It looks like ``united by.'' All of the prisoners 
are at top military weight,they are all laughing and cheering at some 
game. The man who gave me this circles one very clear picture that he 
says is his brother. This was taken in 1953, very close to release. 
They all have full prison uniforms on with scarfs and T-shirts, and 
almost everybody in the picture must have been by order, yes, every 
single person is wearing what I would call a Dutch boy hat or a soft 
garrison hat without grommets, and they all look healthy.
  This brother of a prisoner in this picture told me that not a single 
man in 

[[Page H13857]]
this picture came home. I told him I have no reason to disbelieve you, 
and this is not an insult, but my instinct tells me that just simply 
cannot be true.
  Then I was told by other activists in the POW cause that the 
Pentagon, and I have no way to confirm this until tomorrow, has blown 
this picture up to maximum clarity and size, and has sent it to the 
Veterans of Foreign Wars and the American Legion to ask for 
identification of people in this picture.
  My staff counted about 100 people, including North Korean camp 
workers, many of them women, in the background, and of these 100 at 
least 60 or 70 can be clearly identified by families as their loved 
ones.
  If it turns out nobody from this picture came through, then this is a 
majority of the 389 American soldiers still carried on the books at 8th 
Army Headquarters in South Korea as category 1 prisoners, known to be 
healthy, no amputations, no head wounds, no amoebic dysentery, looking 
as healthy as the men in this picture, never returned from North Korea.
  What is the problem with North Korea? Every time I educate fellow 
Americans, they seem to react in disbelief that the problem is so 
simple. Why, it is worse than Indochina and why did we not get these 
people back? It is simply because the Communists in P'yongyang in North 
Korea said if you want to talk about live American prisoners left 
behind or about all the graveyards that we overran, with Chinese forces 
helping us in November and December of 1953, 42 years ago, then talk to 
us unilaterally.

                              {time}  1715

  Our response for 42 years has been, and this is the part that 
Americans cannot seem to grasp as being true, no, we will not talk to 
you directly, unilaterally, one-on-one, about our prisoners. You must 
go through the United Nations command at P'anmunjom, where they argued 
for 2 years about the shape of the negotiating table. Relived that 
nightmare in 1968, in Paris, while they argued for months while 
Americans died at the rate of 200, 300, 400 a week while we argued 
about the shape of the table in Paris. How many years later would that 
have been? Fifteen years later, same nightmare.
  The North Koreans said no, you fought the war, 98 percent of the 
casualties are yours. Of course. South Vietnamese ROK forces, 
Republican Korean forces, suffered worse than anyone, but of those 
there to help, we took 98 percent of the casualties. You paid for 
almost all of the war. The NATO contingents that were there under the 
U.N. colors, some did not lose a single man and did not have anybody 
wounded. The names of these countries, wonderful little countries, 
Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, they did not have anybody killed or 
wounded, yet their names are carved in the stone leading up to the 
Korean War Memorial that, at its dedication, Clinton talked about the 
armistice. There is no armistice, it is merely a cease-fire between the 
belligerents and could flare up at any moment. And the U.N. command 
there really was the United States, but we keep telling the North 
Koreans you knuckled under to the U.N. command that voted because of 
China being absent on the Security Council, then called Red China.
  Communist China did not have the same powers that they have now to 
influence national debate. They had taken the free China seat of Chiang 
Kai-shek, and the Communist victories in 1949. But because of an 
absentee on the part of one of the five permanent members of the 
National Security Council, we got a vote to go in with the U.N. effort 
in Korea. If we had not gotten that vote, the United States would have 
still gone and done the job alone, taking 100 percent of the casualties 
instead of 98-point something percent of the casualties.
  So all of that, Mr. Speaker, is by way of prologue that the 
nightmares of World War II, the bloody part of the cold war with our 
crews shot down all around the periphery of the very evil empire, and 
then the nightmare of Korea, with missing in action men; and then the 
nightmare of three remains not being returned from Somalia; the 
nightmare of my hearings this morning, all of that is by way of 
prologue to say here we go again in Bosnia, without a definitive exit 
strategy and with very few options left to the United States Congress.

  Now, Mr. Speaker, never, since I came here in 1977, with Vietnam, 
Cambodian and Laotian problems on my mind of our men left in some cases 
behind alive; reliving the nightmare of Korea and remains; expecting us 
to relive the tragedy of what the French went through, paying regularly 
blackmail money to the Communists in Hanoi for all of the remains, 
including Charles de Gaulle's own grandson, who died fighting in 
Indochina in Vietnam. Here we go again.
  Now, at the hearing just now, to the Secretary of Defense, Secretary 
of State, and to the Commander of the Joint Chiefs of Staff I read from 
Gerald Seib's article. He was all wrong on Colin Powell and why he 
should run, and how he thought Bill Bennett had it all figured out, but 
Gerry Seib wrote, I think, the definitive column for this week on 
Bosnia. He said there are only four things we can do in the Congress, 
and I read all four of them slowly just an hour and 15 minutes ago to 
Clinton's first team that had been given the job.
  And I told them, you give new meaning to the word good soldiers. I 
said a triple draft evader is now ordering you to put men in harm's way 
and in his speech deliberately leaves out the word Vietnam. Even put in 
North Ireland, where he is today, but no mention of what Reagan called 
the noble cause of trying to keep freedom in the southern half of 
Vietnam as we bought freedom for the southern half of Korea over the 
last 42 years, including the Olympic Games being in Seoul in 1988.
  Here are the four things, and I could not add a fifth. Imagine you 
are the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State and Chairman of the 
Joint Chiefs listening to this. I do not know if they saw yesterday's 
Wall Street Journal column on the political page, A-16.
  First, we can pass a resolution disapproving of the deployment. We 
have already done that, Mr. Speaker. Forcing Clinton to decide whether 
to send the peacekeeping troops on his own. He is already doing that. 
This is a recipe for disaster, to have another vote and redo the vote 
of a few days ago that was 243 to 171, two people voting present. I do 
not grasp that at all. That is usually reserved for a financial 
interest in some vote. You vote present to clear your conscience. 
Seventeen people missing the vote. We have already had that vote. But 
if we vote again, then Mr. Seib said this is a recipe for disaster. 
Constitutionally it is a disaster, diplomatically and militarily.
  Troops will be sent anyway. They are already on their way. They are 
landing there now. We have had advance units in a different world there 
for a long time. These plans have been drawn up. I know my friends in 
the Pentagon. These contingency plans now being enacted have been drawn 
up for years and discussed in depth. The troops are moving. The trains 
are leaving the stations in Europe. And we are going to stage out of 
Hungary, no matter what they say, because the rail lines go through 
Budapest. Troops will be sent anyway, though with an explicit signal 
that they do not have national support.
  We have sent those signals twice. The calls are coming into my 
office, still not a single call saying to my staff in Garden Grove, CA, 
or here in Washington, the Congressman must support Clinton, let the 
troops go. I have had a few call in saying tell the Congressman to shut 
up. This will probably trigger a few more. Don't waste your time. I 
have earned the right through nine elections, very tough elections, to 
hold a Democrat seat, which some people think should be a safe Democrat 
seat, and I wore the uniform for 22 years and 4 months. Got back in an 
aircraft after they had tried to kill me.

  I deliberately chose the most difficult and dangerous thing you could 
do in peacetime, because after the spasm of killing in Korea, I 
anticipated that I would get to serve under a 5-star general, 
Eisenhower, my years of active duty; over 5 years that there would be 
no one going to take on the man who had driven Hitler to suicide in 
less than 3 years and 5 months. Nobody was going to take on Eisenhower.
  Conversely, if Clinton were to pull the plug on the peacekeeping 
mission, which my sons thought he was going to do up until yesterday, 
Republicans in Congress would find themselves blamed for whatever 
horrors followed in Bosnia. This may have been in the 

[[Page H13858]]
back of their heads in the White House, certainly not the three 
distinguished cabinet people that faced me today.
  Second, avoid a vote entirely. I think that is what we are heading 
toward. This is for all the people that phoned my office during special 
orders or right afterward and that are particularly leaning on all the 
freshmen Members, Mr. Speaker, probably yourself included. They are 
saying you must vote again, you must debate again, you must let Clinton 
know the Nation does not want this.
  But, if we avoid a vote entirely, leaving Clinton out on a limb 
alone, and I think this is what is going to happen, this option appeals 
to some younger lawmakers. Yes, freshmen have told me this is what they 
expect. Some senior Members have told me that we should leave it alone 
now. The train has left; we must support our men in the field. But in 
practical terms this is not much better than the first option.
  Troops are going anyway, without any sense of national support, 
either in the polling data or by their calls to the Senate and the 
House. Worse for Congress, this will look like washing its hands. I 
added the words Pontius Pilate approach, and told the secretaries and 
General Shalikashvili that I added those words Pontius Pilate. It would 
forfeit a chance to influence how the troops are used.
  Third, Pass a resolution, Gulf War style. In other words, repeat the 
vote from a few days ago and switch about 30, 40 Members. Give Clinton 
the support that Bush got that simply endorses the Bosnian mission. 
This is Clinton's best dream. He looks definitive, resolute, masculine, 
macho, changed enough votes through the power of his oratory Monday 
night--not--and his speech in front of the prime minister, parliament, 
Madam Hillary sitting there, that we will not go down the course of 
isolationism again.
  He has referred to the League of Nations, 1919, World War I, Congress 
not supporting Colonel House's dream exorcised through Woodrow Wilson. 
He has changed the image of the campaign, the youthful farm boy 
Arkansas image of biting the lower lip, which some of my Democrat 
friends said drove them nuts, that biting the lower lip and shaking his 
head as though it was early Parkinson's disease, like this, biting that 
lip. That is all gone. Now it is Mussolini style, the jaw muscles 
tensed, the head raised and the chin thrust forward in the air, 
resolute. I am a decisive leader.
  This would be his dream, to get us to debate it again and turn the 
debate and give him a Bush-type resolution. Bush had 250 to 183. Would 
that not be nice, if he could change the 243 to 171 to a victory 
of 250? That is not going to happen, No. 3, because of the phone calls. 
Congressmen do not vote that courageously against their own self-
interest when America is furious that our men are going in by 
Christmas, not being pulled out by Christmas.

  I told General Shalikashvili and Mr. Perry and Mr. Christopher, I 
said, and they flinched, they did not have any comment when I said, 
gentlemen, whether it is the movie ``Gone With The Wind'', truthfully 
reflecting every Civil War year, 1861, the men will be home by 
Christmas. The South said that and the North said that. That was all 
changed by the battle of Bull Run out here in Manassas. The second 
battle of Manassas kind of ruined it in 1862. Even Antietam did not 
help. The troops will be home by Christmas of 1862. Certainly 
Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, did not change optimists from saying the 
men will be home on both sides by Christmas of 1863. 1864 it was a cry 
all year long, in spite of the siege at Petersburg. We were going to 
have those troops home by Christmas of 1864.
  World War I, the troops will be home by Christmas of 1918. We made 
it. Not 1917, though. World War II. 1943, no, they did not. 1944, 
Eisenhower said the troops from Europe will be home by Christmas and 
they were. Eisenhower got elected President. He said if I am elected 
President, if I win, I will go to Korea as president-elect and 
everybody will be home by Christmas of my first year. He won, he did 
go, and he was correct, they were home by Christmas of 1953.
  LBJ. We can get this all done in 1965. All the troops that I am 
putting on the beach, all the Marines in I-Corps that are hitting the 
beach March 8 of 1965, they will all be home by Christmas of 1965. No, 
they were not home by 1965 or 1966 or 1967 or 1968. Tet offensive year. 
He was home in Texas by Christmas of 1968. Humphrey was home by 
Christmas of 1968. Nixon had no secret plan whatsoever, and he was home 
by Christmas of 1974 in California at Casa Pacifica, and the Vietnamese 
were in all of Vietnam, and Americans were rotting in cells and being 
tortured to death in Saigon prison. As I said, ex-marine Tucker 
Googelman.

                              {time}  1730

  By Christmas of 1975, it was a nightmare for the boat people, and by 
Christmas of 1976 and 1977, 2 million people were being slaughtered in 
Cambodia if they wore eyeglasses or had finished the seventh grade.
  Here for the first time in my life I am hearing, and this is what I 
told the Secretaries, I am hearing the most unusual thought I have ever 
heard of in Christendom, we think we can have the troops in by 
Christmas.
  The mines that are there, and General Shalikashvili asked us not to 
say 6 million, because he does not know who created that figure. All 
right. So it is only a million or 500,000, and when the snow covers the 
ground, maybe that will give us a feeling of false security, but we 
will not know where the mines are. Maybe we will not venture off the 
proven road paths.
  Knowing the quality of man and woman that serves, I can hear from 
hero's bed in Ramstein, the Air Force base there, I can see some 
American that lost a leg saying, ``Better I lost this leg. I got to 
play sports as a kid. Better that it happened to me than to some little 
Bosnian boy or girl, no matter that they are Moslem, Serbian, or 
Croatian. I have had most of my youth.''
  Mr. Speaker, I know the heroism of the people that we are sending 
there. To a man, they all want to go. They are all seeing it as a 
humanitarian peace mission to stop atrocities, three-way atrocities, 
but most of them Bosnian-Serbian atrocities.
  So, No. 4, pass a resolution approving the deployment. This is a 
derivation of No. 3, but expressing misgivings and attaching some 
conditions. This final option may seem the coward's way out, but under 
the circumstances it makes a lot of sense.
  There are some legitimate policy questions to be decided. How far 
will America go in arming the Bosnian Moslems so they can defend 
themselves, while also playing the role of peacekeeper? I proposed that 
question on the floor yesterday and put it in the Record the day before 
and proposed that during the debate. That is one of my 50 questions to 
Clinton.
  What are the outer limits on the size, the scope, and the duration of 
an American deployment? What are the outer limits? It has crept up from 
20,000 to 37,000. Some of my colleagues who are becoming experts at 
this say it is more like 40,000 or 45,000. The chain of support is 
generally, if you use Vietnam numbers, 7- or 10-to-1. For every young 
American taking it on the chin in some jungle or snow-covered hill in 
the Balkans, there are 7 or 10 people in a chain of command having to 
be financed to keep that person in the front lines.
  So, there are the four options given to us by the Wall Street 
Journal, and I told the three witnesses in the Committee on National 
Security, ``God bless you. Good luck. I am going to be an optimist and 
expect the people in Bosnia to hunker down and wait for us to leave on 
the election cycle, the Presidential election cycle.''
  I reminded them that Ho Chi Minh, although he died September 3 of 
1969, had planned the Tet offensive; two of them. Big Tet, starting 
January 29 and Mini Tet in September. I was there that whole month, end 
of August and early September of 1968. He planned both of those 
offensives to influence the American Presidential election of 1968. He 
planned some of the terrorist attacks in 1964, and the Tonkin Gulf 
incident in 1964 was all based on American Presidential elections.
  Do not think they did not learn in Somalia, on the third and fourth 
when 18 Americans died, and on the sixth when Sergeant Mike Rearson was 
killed with a direct hit by a mortar shell. At the front door of 
headquarters hangars of Mogadishu and a dud landed at the feet, or we 
would have lost a 2-

[[Page H13859]]
star general named Garrison. Do not think that in Somalia on Columbus 
Day, do not think that those Haitians when they were chanting, 
``Remember Somalia,'' in French and English, do not think that they 
were well aware of the price that Americans put on the sacred, human 
lives of our men in uniform, and our women.
  Gerald Seib goes on to finish: Republicans in Congress should have 
some say on those kinds of decisions, and the resolution of approval 
can give them the opening to do that. But he is recommending we vote 
for it and put conditions on it.
  Clinton is not going to pay any attention to our conditions. He is in 
a full-time, 24-hour-a-day election mode. The one thing he does 
effectively in life is campaign. He is in full campaign mode. 
Everything is geared to what is good for November 5, 1996. No matter 
what conditions we as armchair generals, with or without varying levels 
of experience, including all the 73 freshmen, no matter what we put 
down in open amendment process, which would probably take a week of 8-
hours-a-day debate, he is going to ignore them all.
  He is going to be as smart as George Bush was to leave this in the 
hands of the military people to minimize the risk and be out of there 
in 11 months. And if the Bosnians of all the 3 sides are smart, they 
will do what I predicted they probably will do: Hunker down; tell the 
killers and the terrorists from Iran that are all over that area now 
that want to kill Americans, tell them to, ``Shut up or we will kill 
you,'' the Serbians will tell them. ``Do not touch Americans. Hunker 
down for 11 months. We have been doing this since the Battle of Kosovo 
in the mid-1300's. If we waited 600 years to kill one another, and if 
we hunkered down under a Croatian named Joseph Tito, and hunkered down 
for half a century waiting to kill one another until he died, we can 
wait 11 months.''
  So, I am predicting that Clinton is going to look like he has a 
victory here in time for election, but it will not help him because 
people will remember Somalia, and Haiti will have exploded in his face.
  So, do not worry. He is going to be beaten on domestic issues. 
Republicans in Congress should have some say. Just as a Democratic 
Congress tried to define the limits on American paramilitary activity 
in Central America in the 1980's, a Republican Congress can now try to 
define the limits on American peacekeeping activity in Bosnia in the 
1990's. One idea is to pass a resolution prohibiting troops, but one 
that gives Clinton an escape clause. This seems too cute. The 
Republicans' practical problem is that after 12 years of arguing for 
presidential latitude in foreign policies, they are not well-positioned 
to cut down that latitude.

  Remember, I and about four other senior Members fought our freshmen 
to take away the War Powers Act to give a President, not necessarily 
this President, more latitude in emergency situations, which I do not 
think the Balkans constitutes at this point.
  The case for peacekeepers in Bosnia, while a close call, is 
defensible. I have always conceded that. It is that this particular 
person, Mr. Clinton, makes it exceedingly difficult to send people in 
harm's way when in his own speech he pours salt into the wounds of 
every person who felt Vietnam was a noble cause, however poorly, 
politically, it was fought or not fought, given the political 
constraints on the commanders and the war fighters, to leave that word 
``Vietnam'' out of that speech and then to talk about in a macho way 
under he, the Commander in Chief, ``Fire will be met with fire, and 
then some,'' good grief. What an afront. But a case can be made for 
stopping the killing and for not having any more Jasenovac 
concentration camps. That was the World War II camp with a museum and a 
beautiful memorial that I visited with former Members Helen Bentley and 
Bob McEwen of Ohio, which Tudjman bulldozed months later after the 
Croatians overran this dreaded concentration camp, the biggest in all 
of that area; the only one in what was the former Yugoslavia in which 
hundreds of thousands of Yugoslavian Jewish people were executed, and 
hundreds of thousands of Serbs were executed by Nazi-style Ustasa 
Croatian who had gone psycho with the blood of killing.
  The Republicans' practical problem is we do not have latitude to cut 
down Clinton's power as Commander in Chief. The case for peacekeepers 
is defensible, I can see that. Two arguments count above all others. 
The first is the moral argument. If a great power has the chance to 
stop horrible atrocities, it sometimes has the obligation to do so. I 
accept that on its face. And when my friend, the gentleman from 
California, Tom Lantos, who is the last survivor of the Holocaust to 
serve in this Chamber, when he made that point, I understood that 
point.
  The second is the realpolitik argument. This is a Frederick the Great 
term, ``realpolitik.'' What is the real politics of this? If the United 
States backs out on Bosnia now, it probably means the end of the trans-
Atlantic alliance as we know it. Some may want to take that chance, 
that it is the end of the alliance. Most do not.
  Who is ``most''? I find myself agreeing with the gentlewoman from 
Colorado [Mrs. Schroeder] in her 5-minute question period a few hours 
ago. The gentlewoman who, the day after announcing her retirement 
saying that she was at the top of her game, finally had me agreeing 
with her.
  She was talking about burden sharing. She asked the Secretary of 
State and Secretary of Defense and they did not answer directly. She 
asked what is the percentage of our contribution in the intelligence 
gathering? They kind of equivocated. Strategic is there anyway, Mr. 
Perry said. The fallout of our strategic intelligence is like it is a 
freebie, because we are going to be collecting it anyway. Combining 
tactical and strategic, which is done in a tough situation like this.
  Mr. Speaker, 98 percent of the intelligence comes from us. The Turks 
are flying some photo-recce missions. The Germans, that is their only 
way of helping, because out of guilt, they do not want to fire any guns 
in the name of their once-great, and now-great nation, so they fly 
photo-recce.
  We control the intelligence process there. The gentlewoman asked what 
is the sea power in the Adriatic? She got doubletalk. It is true we 
have our own fleet there. They neglected to name it, the 6th Fleet. We 
have an Adriatic force there. The direct answer was: Mrs. Schroeder, 90 
percent of the naval force at sea is ours, and one of the drawings on 
the briefing paper was a picture of a C-17. It is rescued like a 
Phoenix from the canceled programs. Now we are going to go with a full, 
robust C-17 program. There was a lot of hard management work to get 
over some Douglas Aircraft scandals. McDonnell Douglas now has the 
contract of their dreams. Boeing wants to grab them and swallow them 
into the world's biggest defense company. The two of them alone are in 
the top three, or four, and now they are going to combine into a 
mammoth defense company. Boeing's commercial contracts, combined with 
McDonnell Douglas'. A great breakthrough on C-17 Globemaster III. And 
this was the image of the C-17 on one of the things talking about 
airlift. Mrs. Schroeder did not get a direct answer on that.
  The airlift is 95 percent ours, for pete's sake. What do the Germans 
have? A little Transvaal, 2-engine transport. It is all U.S. airlift. 
Airlift, sealift, air power, sea power, all the sorties flown. The 
French that I mentioned last night, for anybody who did not hear the 
special order last night, I have been around like an annoying 
conscience of Jimminy Cricket showing this picture of the French pilots 
to everybody. Sam Johnson who lived this nightmare, lived this terror 
being captured on the ground, enemy country, his eyes focused in on 
this fast.
  So did Duke Cunningham, who bailed out in combat, hit with a SAM 
missile into the water off of Vietnam and was rescued out of the sea as 
they were coming out on boats to get him.
  Here is the backseater, Souvignet, Jose Souvignet, when they turned 
inside and I showed him the picture. I wish we had the camera 
capability to zoom in. Look at this stern face of the frontseater, 
Captain Frederique Chiffot. Frederique Chiffot, shot down while I am 
over there. I am at Aviano on the phone getting an intelligence 
briefing in the Ops room when he was shot down. Two good parachutes on 
American television that night.
  Mr. Speaker, why is he being held up by these tough-looking Serbian 
fighters? Look at the young Serbian boys in 

[[Page H13860]]
the background. Like the Bosnian Moslems, like the Croatians, they all 
look like Americans, because there are enough Croatian-Serbians and 
Moslem people from that area living over here in the United States. The 
Moslems have blond hair and blue eyes, some of them, and the Croatians 
look like ever single American graduation picture we have ever seen in 
a lot of our high schools.

                              {time}  1745

  The only thing they are lacking is people of African or Asian 
heritage. But there is the picture of the front seater from that Mirage 
2000 state-of-the-art European fighter, giving a face of defiance like 
I am not cooperating, I am going to hang out here.
  Here is another picture of the back seater, Lieutenant Souvignet, S-
O-U-V-I-G-N-E-T, Jose Souvignet. There he is. Neither feet touching the 
ground, being held up by a very young, handsome Serb fighter and an 
older fighter with this beard. Here is a young American looking guy 
with a beautiful ski type sweater tucked into his European camouflage 
fatigues, American probably. His suspenders, their gun belts, their 
weapons of every type.
  Where are these two Frenchmen? Everybody on both sides of the aisle 
in the Committee on National Security agreed with me. I will mention 
Tillie Fowler of Florida by name. She said, I agree with you, Bob. If 
this had been an American shot down with these two pilots missing, 
particularly, as I said, if one of them was 1 of our 14 Air Force 
female pilots now, if we had an American man or woman missing and they 
had not been jerked out of evasion like Captain Scott O'Grady, Clinton 
could not have made the speech Monday night.
  This is only Thursday. Everybody on both sides of the aisle agreed. 
An American air crew missing? No peace negotiations at Dayton, OH at 
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
  Do you know what Sam Johnson said to me, Congressman from Dallas, 7 
years in Hanoi, 3\1/2\ in solitary confinement? He said, why were these 
two allied airmen not brought up at Dayton? Why was not Milosevic, who 
flew there from Belgrade, and a lot of people think he is a war 
criminal. Would the ethnic cleansing have taken place without his OK 
from up in Belgrade, when a lot of the units were all fleshed out and 
the leadership was coming from the former Yugoslavian Army. He said, 
why were they not brought up at Dayton?
  I asked the Secretary of Defense. I asked the Secretary of State. I 
showed him these pictures. I asked General Shali, did not the three 
rescue operations, was not the first rescue operation only Americans? 
Was not a joint French-American rescue operations, this Paris Match 
cover story says it all took place off the Teddy Roosevelt, our biggest 
battle carrier in that area at that time.
  It says in here that two of our men were wounded on the first 
mission. That means Americans. Why is this kept silent? Why are they 
not on the cover of People magazine, Life, Time, Newsweek, U.S. News? 
Why are we not told about the two Americans who were wounded trying to 
get the Frenchmen out? Probably because we want to try again, so it is 
closely held, it is top secret.
  Why was I not informed on my 7th year on the Intelligence Committee? 
What is the fate of these Frenchmen? Two days in August, 30 in 
September, that is 32; 31 in October, that is 53. Today is 30 days in 
November, 83 days missing. On day 52, Karadzic, who is an indicted war 
criminal by an international war tribunal in The Hague in Netherlands, 
says they were kidnaped from the hospital on day 52. Why were they in a 
hospital for 52 days? These minor leg injuries? Their wits are about 
them. There are no battle wounds anywhere but limping. Were they beaten 
to death, as the French foreign minister suspected, when he called it a 
grotesque statement that they were captured by Bosnian Moslems? The 
Moslems would have given us these two men to stay in our good graces 
within hours, if they had kidnaped them.
  Radovan Karadzic says, they were taken maybe by rogue groups. Both 
Mr. Perry and Mr. Christopher used that term, ``rogue groups.'' How we 
are ready to punish rogue groups if they kill Americans, but we are 
ready to accept a lot of casualties, they also said.
  If a rogue group took them, Karadzic said it would be for ransom. Not 
a single ransom request has been put forward or a hostage payoff in 31 
days. If these were Americans, what a different situation it would be.
  I consider them our warrier brothers, French allied pilots flying out 
of Villa Park in Italy a few kilometers between Milan and Venice from 
our bases at Vicenza and Aviano. I visited all of them. Drove by Villa 
Park, asked Congressman Laughlin of Texas, let us go to Villa Park and 
see the French crews. We do not have time, my escort officers said. You 
cannot see it all, Mr. Dornan. We have had an amazing trip. We have 
been to Albania. We have been to Slovenia. We have been to Slavonia. We 
have been to Qatar. We have seen where the Serbians destroyed the 
international airport. You witnessed two secret programs. You have 
witnessed a supposed-to-be-secret-program of the predator unmanned 
aerial vehicles getting us close-in tight intelligence. It has now been 
in all the press. Who leaked that secret program that I thought I had 
as privileged information? We have been all over. The only thing you 
did not get to do was fly into Sarajevo like Charlie Wilson, on a 
Russian airplane, one of our retiring Democrats who served well here, 
helped save Afghanistan from the evil empire, which we won by a vote of 
one person in a secret vote in the intelligence committee. No, you have 
seen plenty. There will be another trip coming up.

  And I told Shalikashvili, and he nodded, in confirmation, and he will 
help me, I said, I know one thing, God bless you, good luck. I know you 
are prepared to take more casualties now than 19. That is what I 
learned at the hearing today.
  I have been saying for weeks that half of the 19 who died in Somalia, 
actually 30 killed over the whole year and a half in hostile fire and 
another 14, including shark bite, suicide, and a drowning in a pool on 
recreation at Mombasa, 44 died in Somalia, 30 in combat, 19 at the end. 
I thought that 8 or 10 would drive us out of there. I said, if you bug 
out of here like Vietnam, if you bug out of here like Somalia, if you 
turn around like the Norton Sound on Columbus Day in Haiti before we 
went in in force later, I said, it is the end of us as a superpower. I 
do not care how big our defense budget is, we are finished.
  But I said, I can see you are conditioning us to take serious 
casualties. So all I will do is move the figure up.
  Do you know what I think the benchmark is now? Desert Storm, not the 
19 or the 30 in Somalia. It is the 148, with one man dying of his 
wounds later, 149, let us throw in the allied, the British and the 
French deaths, that was 99. So let us make it 248. Somewhere between 
149 and 248, this Congress will go ballistic, berserk, and we will 
demand a pullout to the detriment of our standing in the world and to 
the joy of every war criminal in Burma, in East Timor, in Tibet, in 
China, in North Korea, in poor, crushed Communist-controlled Vietnam. 
In Cuba, Fidel Castro will say, I told you the United States are paper 
tigers. I am going to stay in office until I drop dead.
  Every killer everywhere in the world will say, all you have to do is 
what Ho Chi Minh taught us, kill Frenchmen, kill Americans, they will 
both pull out. They have European Judeo-Christian standards. Kill them. 
It is the bloodletting that goes on in the West Bank of Israel, on both 
sides, killing the flower of their youth to see which one is going to 
cave in first.
  Mr. Speaker, let me look at some of the articles here that have come 
out today. Memorandum to me, a seven-page fax from a lawyer named 
Clancey, a good friend in California. Is this not all breaking down 
because of the chickens, interesting word, the chicken coming home to 
roost. I said in committee today that the jokes are out there now. When 
the troops deploy, Clinton goes to England. It is not funny anymore. I 
said then there are the rumors around. I told this to them in private. 
The rumors that Shalikashvili was in the room when Clinton expressed, 
properly, concern about the Hamas and the secret police of Tehran and 
the evil Mujahidin, the Iranian Mujahidin, the bad Mujahidin, there is 
a good Mujahidin, just like there were good 

[[Page H13861]]
and bad Mujahidin freedom fighters in Afghanistan, there is good and 
bad in Iran.
  In spite of all that, Clinton asked, concerned, as he should be, over 
casualties, what are we going to do to keep them tamped down. Then he 
said, do not let the Congress find out about this, try and downplay 
this.
  We have accomplished some things. Chain of command. The top, General 
Joulwon, USA; Sarajevo, Air Force NATO South, Adm. Leighton Smith, 
several Congressmen had met with him at his headquarters in Naples. He 
will probably move his headquarters to Sarajevo, right next to Sniper 
Alley where little boys and girls and mothers have been murdered right 
in front of their children by both sides. In that case the Croatians 
get a pass because they were not in Sarajevo.
  Air South, the beautiful Lion of St. Mark, the evangelist, the symbol 
of southern NATO, General Ryan, he has been there for years. I met with 
him two or three times, great commander.
  Now we have a little joint endeavor, as this mission is called, 
Lieutenant General Walker, British general, land forces, under Admiral 
Smith, the United States admiral. And we let the Italians come in here, 
naval command south, Admiral Angelli, there is the Italian flag.
  Then it comes down to the forces on the ground, gave a very difficult 
area along this Serbian Serb border to the Russians. The commander in 
Bihac, where the fighting has been going on for 600 or more years, the 
point of the Ottoman-Turk penetration into the heart of Europe, when 
they were rolled back from having burned Prague and Buda and Pest to 
the ground but being stopped, no, being stopped at Prague and stopped 
at Vienna, they were pushed back to the arrow shape that is the Bosnian 
part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the tip of the Islamic spear at the 
heart of Europe pointing right at Paris, that is Bihac, the Bihac 
pocket. Not so small a pocket any longer. Who is the commander there? 
Major General Kievenaar, probably a Dutch general.

  Then we have the multinational division at Sarajevo but down at 
Mostar, a beautiful city where I had lunch on the way to Majaguria on 
that trip of March 1991 in beautiful Mostar where they dumped a bridge, 
500 years old, that stone bridge, they are going to try and rebuild it 
with United States and world money through the NATO cultural aspects of 
the U.N. headquarters in New York. This is commanded by Major General 
Rideau, sixth French division. There is a French command.
  Back to another British command, the multinational division, this is 
the rapid reaction force. They do not wear U.N. paraphernalia. Michael 
New would not have had any problem serving in this unit. This is NATO 
and they wear their uniforms.
  Southwest, this is in Gornji Vakuf. I thought they were going to take 
Gornji Vakuf, the Croatians, if we had not told them to back off after 
they had cleaned up the whole Krajina area, Major General Jackson, 
third UK division.
  And then the multinational division northeast, right there in old 
downtown Tuzla, this is going to be one of the big ground headquarters, 
Major General Nash, probably one of the last of our Vietnam combat 
experienced men. He was probably a brandnew second lieutenant out of 
the academy or ROTC in Vietnam. He is the 1st Armored Division. I have 
seen him on television. The last of our combat trained divisional 
commanders. They will all be gone in 2 years or so. He is there in 
Tuzla.
  Here is an interesting thing. I see on the news the operational 
commander of this operation out of the Pentagon is a top notch West 
Pointer named Wes Clark, was the commander of the 1st Cavalry Division 
when he and I were spun in kind of a trap that I detected, probably by 
Carville and Stepha-nopoulos. Listen to this story, Mr. Speaker.
  On Halloween day of 1992, 25 days after the House had adjourned and 
Mary Matalin told me, Bush's principal fighter in his campaign, that 
her then boyfriend, James Carville, was chewing nails with 
Stephanopoulos that war heroes Sam Johnson, Duke Cunningham, and Duncan 
Hunter and this peacetime fighter pilot might cost Clinton the 
election. On or about the 30th or 31st of October, a gentleman calls my 
office, serious voice and says, I never thought it would come to this. 
Congressman Dornan is the only man can handle this. Clinton tried to 
renounce his citizenship in Oslo, Norway and a West Point Rhodes 
scholar, Wesley Clark, was sent up to Oslo to talk him out of it.
  My staff panicked. Congressman, we almost did not tell you. You are 
not going to go public with this without checking it out. Relax, I 
said, smells like a trap to embarrass me. Called the Pentagon to get 
the general officer biography of Gen. Wesley Clark. If he is the 
commander of the first cav, I will call him there. We get his bio 
within the hour.
  I go to a Halloween parade for one of my grandchildren at the Mission 
San Juan Capistrano. I call from the principal's office. Do you have 
the general's bio? Yes. Is he a Rhodes scholar? It does not say 
anything about Rhodes scholar. Does it have Oxford on it? Oh, my God, 
yes, it does. He was at Oxford with Clinton.
  What year does he graduate from West Point? 1966. Does not work, I 
said. It was a trap.
  What year does he graduate from, get his Rhodes scholarship? 1968. 
Where does he go? Sill Artillery School, then to Vietnam. He has the 
Silver Star. He has the Bronze Star. He was in combat so his 2 years as 
a Rhodes scholar set him up for the noble cause of Vietnam.

                              {time}  1800

  I said, ``OK, he left in June. Clinton was on the SS United States in 
August. I have seen the powder blue picture, blown-up, overweight, on 
his way as a Rhodes scholar, has already managed to put the draft board 
off the first time because graduate school didn't count any more, how 
he worked that politically through the Buick dealership, political 
power of his stepuncle; who knows how he did it. He arrives in August 
of 1968.''
  I said, ``Get me Wes Clark on the phone.'' I called Fort Hood in 
Texas.
  ``He's on the golf course.''
  ``Get me his aide-de-camp.''
  I get his aide-de-camp.
  ``Have the general call me when he comes off the golf course. Give 
him my daughter's home number in Capistrano.''
  He calls me.
  ``General, have you gotten any media calls that you or young Rhodes 
scholar, West Point graduate, that went up to Oslo to talk Clinton out 
of renouncing his citizenship? I think it's a trap.''
  ``Yes, Congressman, AP has already called me, I sense it is a trap. I 
never met the man.''
  ``How many other Rhodes scholars were there from Annapolis, Air Force 
Academy?''
  He said, ``Four.''
  He gave me their names. One of them was the skipper of the Kitty 
Hawk.
  I said, ``So they would have overlapped Clinton; right?''
  But I questioned about other things. I said ``What was it like when 
you left Oxford as a young Army second lieutenant on your way to train 
to go to Vietnam?''
  Quote, Wesley Clark, three stars, operational commander of this whole 
operation under the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so when I see him on 
television, do not think I do not have some interesting feelings for 
Gen. Wesley Clark. I have been meaning to have lunch with him for 3 
years now.
  He says, ``Congressman,''--now listen to this, and think of Clinton 
at Oxford 26 years ago: ``Congressman, it was the most hate-America 
environment I have ever been immersed in or witnessed in my life. We 
academy men from the Air Force Academy, West Point, and Annapolis hung 
out together, studied, avoided all this hate-America madness going on, 
got our degrees.'' Clinton, no record of his ever going to classes 
second year. One of 3 in his class of 32 who did not get any degree, 
got an honorary one on the way home from Normandy memorials, could not 
miss that photo op, although Tony Lake and others said:
  ``Don't go. It will recall what you did in England and why you 
couldn't go to Grosvenor Square for the big ceremony with Bob Hope and 
all of the other people before they left for the Normandy beaches.''
  He told me about that hate-America climate and the other academy men 
that were there overlapping Clinton's first year. I will bump into one 
of them. The skipper of the Kitty Hawk is a two-star admiral now. He is 
over 

[[Page H13862]]
there at the Pentagon. I will bump into him someday.
  But this is what makes all of this uncomfortable: Mr. Speaker, 
Roosevelt was 35 years of age when he was Assistant Secretary of the 
Navy and we went to war in World War I. He could name every single ship 
of the line, and after him we had a run of five naval officers, four of 
them back to back, George Bush the last, and we had an artillery 
captain named Harry, like my dad, an artillery captain in World War I 
named Harry, then a five-star general during all of my years of active 
duty, then an Army Air Corps lieutenant who was also, like Roosevelt, 
35. People say, ``Why wasn't John Wayne in combat?'' He was 35 when the 
war started, with three small children.

  After this a long run of military people, I think of Roger Patterson, 
the trooper who told me to my face that Clinton said to him once 
driving around at night when they were out catting around; he said, 
``You know, Roger, why is it that the American people accept somebody 
to have worn the uniform or served? I don't think that is necessary.'' 
And his dream came true.
  And now all the editorials are coming out saying of all people, of 
all people, to be in the commander in chief's job, to be sitting in the 
Oval Office, of all people to be there, it is this man who deliberately 
leaves Vietnam out of his speeches and who is going into what Churchill 
called the tinderbox of Europe, into the Sarajevo area.
  Ironically our headquarters, our ground headquarters, will be in 
Tuzla. What is Tuzla? Tuzla is the last atrocity photographs on 
American television. On Friday, August 25, I met with the Japanese 
envoy, direct representative of Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Secretary 
General of the United Nations, Mr. Akashi. I have Greg Laughlin and 
three military escorts as witnesses. I said, ``Mr. Akashi, you are not 
qualified to pick military targets.''
  ``Oh, I picked good targets back in April.''
  I said, ``You mean an outhouse with some ammunition in it? You must 
let General Ryan and his people, we just left him, we just left Admiral 
Layton; they say they are ready to use severe force if there is another 
atrocity.''
  This is Friday, the 25th; the bombing, the mortaring, of Tuzla was 
the 28th. I said, ``I will do everything I can to get you removed from 
this position if you set yourself up as an armchair general under the 
U.N. chain of command, and you're going to pick out these meaningless 
targets. It's been 14 months since you unleashed the first strikes 
here. We never had but two ships elements ever go in here. We lost a 
British Harrier. It's been a miracle that we got Scott O'Grady back. 
Don't you pick the targets.''
  And I will close on this, Mr. Speaker. Monday the mortars hit the 
marketplace in Tuzla where we are setting up our headquarters and men 
are arriving now. Bodies were blown in every direction, a man draped 
over a railing, children killed, people with their limbs, bones 
sticking out of their limbs. We are there, and I will close with what I 
told Clinton's team:
  God bless you, good luck, we will be tracking the casualties, and may 
they be smart enough to hunker down for 11 months until we are out of 
there.
  Clinton may posture as a winner on this case; we will beat him on 
domestic policy, on balancing the budget.
  I will be back again next week with more special orders.

                          ____________________