[Congressional Record Volume 141, Number 183 (Friday, November 17, 1995)]
[House]
[Pages H13206-H13222]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




  PROVIDING FOR CONSIDERATION OF H.R. 2606, PROHIBITION ON FUNDS FOR 
                           BOSNIA DEPLOYMENT

  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, by direction of the Committee on Rules, I 
call up House Resolution 273 and ask for its immediate consideration.
  The Clerk read the resolution, as follows:

                              H. Res. 273

       Resolved, That upon the adoption of this resolution it 
     shall be in order without intervention of any point of order 
     to consider in the House the bill (H.R. 2606) to prohibit the 
     use of funds appropriated to the Department of Defense from 
     being used for the deployment on the ground of United States 
     Armed Forces in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as 
     part of any peacekeeping operation, or as part of any 
     implementation force, unless funds for such deployment are 
     specifically appropriated by law. The previous question shall 
     be considered as ordered on the bill and any amendment 
     thereto to final passage without intervening motion except: 
     (1) one hour of debate on the bill, which shall be equally 
     divided and controlled by the chairman and ranking minority 
     member of the Committee on National Security; (2) one motion 
     to amend by the minority leader or his designee, which shall 
     be considered as read, and shall be separately debatable for 
     one hour equally divided and controlled by the proponent and 
     an opponent; and (3) one motion to recommit, which may 
     include instructions only if offered by the minority leader 
     or his designee.
       Sec. 2. Notwithstanding any other provision of this 
     resolution, if the minority leader or his designee announces 
     that an amendment will not be offered, there shall be an 
     additional period of one hour of debate equally divided and 
     controlled by the chairman and ranking minority member of the 
     Committee on National Security.

  The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman from New York [Mr. Solomon] is 
recognized for 1 hour.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, for the purposes of debate only, I yield 30 
minutes to the distinguished gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Hall], pending 
which I yield myself such time as I may consume. During consideration 
of the resolution, all time yielded is for debate purposes only.
  (Mr. SOLOMON asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks and include extraneous material.)
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, House Resolution 273 is a modified closed 
rule providing for consideration of the bill H.R. 2606, a bill 
prohibiting the use of funds to deploy United States ground troops in 
Bosnia and Herzegovina unless specifically appropriated by law.
  The rule provides for consideration of the bill in the House, instead 
of the Committee of the Whole, without intervening point of order. The 
previous question is considered as ordered on the passage of the bill 
without intervening motion except as follows:
  First, 1 hour of debate is provided, equally divided and controlled 
by the chairman and ranking minority member of the Committee on 
National Security.
  Second, one minority substitute is allowed if offered by the minority 
leader or his designee--debatable for 1 hour; and
  Third, one motion to recommit is permitted which, if containing 
instructions, may only be offered by the minority leader or his 
designee.
  Finally, the rule provides that if the minority substitute is not 
offered, there shall be an additional hour of debate on the bill, 
equally divided between the chairman and ranking minority member of the 
National Security Committee.
  Mr. Speaker, let me conclude this procedural discussion of the rule 
by thanking the ranking minority member, Mr. Moakley, for suggesting 
the option of an additional hour of debate if the minority chooses not 
to offer a substitute.
  I thought, as did my majority committee colleagues, that this was an 
excellent idea because it will allow this House to have the kind of 
serious debate that this issue deserves, regardless of whether there is 
any alternative proposal from the minority side.
  Moreover, I would point out that the right of the minority to offer a 
further amendment in the motion to recommit with instructions is still 
preserved by this rule. That would be debatable for the usual 10 
minutes.
  On the bill itself, Mr. Speaker, I would like to express my complete 
support for Mr. Hefley's responsible attempt to induce the President of 
the United States to consult Congress before he sends American ground 
troops into Bosnia.
  Let me be clear: this legislation does not bar the President from 
sending troops to Bosnia. What it does is assert the constitutional 
prerogative of the Congress when it comes to the power of the purse.
  This legislation requires the President to come to Congress, make his 
case for the mission, and gain favorable approval of the appropriation 
of funds for the mission.
  Mr. Speaker, this is not only constitutional, but it is wise policy.
  We need more debate here in Congress on the vital issue of Bosnia, 
because once again, (as has been the case several times since this 
administration took over) we stand on the verge of putting our young 
men and women in harm's way in a civil war where America has no vital 
national interest.
  Mr. Speaker, American soldiers should only be deployed to zones of 
conflict when and if vital American national interests are at stake.
  Mr. Speaker, American foreign policy has always been to come to the 
defense of sovereign democratic allies that came under external 
military attack. Bosnia does not meet this test.
  Despite instigation and support from Serbia & Russia, the Bosnian 
tragedy is essentially a civil conflict.
  And Members of this House, we should not get directly involved in a 
civil conflict--especially one that is so complicated and ancient as 
the one in Bosnia--and which occurs in a place where America has no 
vital interests such as oil supply lines or shipping lanes.
  As heart-wrenching as this tragedy has been, and as despicable as the 
Serb aggression and tactics have been, this conflict does not justify 
the loss of American lives, not even one.
  It is certainly not something I can justify to my constituents, who 
have sons and daughters that may not come home.
  Mr. Speaker, the answer to this conflict today, is the same as it has 
always been: to lift the arms embargo, and let the Bosnian victims 
defend themselves against the Serb aggression.
  The problem since 1991 has been a military imbalance of power in 
favor of the Serbs.
  Mr. Speaker, the arms embargo froze the balance in favor of the 
aggressor.
  This was a strategic and moral blunder.
  Only when the Serbs are confronted by an equally capable armed force 
will they negotiate in good faith. Then, the Bosnians, Serbs, and 
Croatians will work out their own deal.
  And in fact, both the Bosnians and the Croatians have proved of late 
that this is the correct strategy.
  Both Bosnia and Croatia have recently scored impressive gains on the 
ground, made possible by weapons they have received through holes in 
the embargo, when we looked the other way, proving that they can take 
care of themselves, if we let them.
  But what does the President want to do? Rather than following this 
scenario to its logical conclusion, and enabling the Bosnians to score 
even more gains, this administration now seeks to rein in the Bosnians, 
lock in the current status quo, which still favors the Serbs, and send 
young Americans to enforce an unjust and inherently unstable ``peace.''

[[Page H13207]]

  And American men and women will be in the middle of this hornet's 
nest, courtesy of the Clinton administration.
  Mr. Speaker, peace could be near in Bosnia. The Bosnians, with a 
little outside support in the form of lifting the embargo, could be a 
match for the Serbs, whose strength has been massively overestimated.
  Let us allow the Bosnian people to do the job that they want to do 
and can do better than we can.
  There is a lot at stake here. If we intervene in this kind of affair, 
what will stop us from doing it again in places like Chechnya, in 
places like even Northern Ireland?
  Ladies and gentlemen, American foreign policy, I will repeat one more 
time, has always been to encourage, support and defend our democratic 
treaty allies around this world against outside military aggression. 
That is what we need to continue to do and not get into this business 
of Nation building and country building. We have no business risking 
American lives doing that.

  THE AMENDMENT PROCESS UNDER SPECIAL RULES REPORTED BY THE RULES COMMITTEE,\1\ 103D CONGRESS V. 104TH CONGRESS 
                                            [As of November 17, 1995]                                           
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  103d Congress                        104th Congress           
              Rule type              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                       Number of rules    Percent of total   Number of rules    Percent of total
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open/Modified-open\2\...............                 46                 44                 54                 65
Modified Closed\3\..................                 49                 47                 20                 24
Closed\4\...........................                  9                  9                  9                 11
                                     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Total.........................                104                100                 83                100
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\This table applies only to rules which provide for the original consideration of bills, joint resolutions or 
  budget resolutions and which provide for an amendment process. It does not apply to special rules which only  
  waive points of order against appropriations bills which are already privileged and are considered under an   
  open amendment process under House rules.                                                                     
\2\An open rule is one under which any Member may offer a germane amendment under the five-minute rule. A       
  modified open rule is one under which any Member may offer a germane amendment under the five-minute rule     
  subject only to an overall time limit on the amendment process and/or a requirement that the amendment be     
  preprinted in the Congressional Record.                                                                       
\3\A modified closed rule is one under which the Rules Committee limits the amendments that may be offered only 
  to those amendments designated in the special rule or the Rules Committee report to accompany it, or which    
  preclude amendments to a particular portion of a bill, even though the rest of the bill may be completely open
  to amendment.                                                                                                 
\4\A closed rule is one under which no amendments may be offered (other than amendments recommended by the      
  committee in reporting the bill).                                                                             


                          SPECIAL RULES REPORTED BY THE RULES COMMITTEE, 104TH CONGRESS                         
                                            [As of November 16, 1995]                                           
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                 Disposition of 
    H. Res. No. (Date rept.)         Rule type           Bill No.              Subject                rule      
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H. Res. 38 (1/18/95)...........  O................  H.R. 5...........  Unfunded Mandate        A: 350-71 (1/19/ 
                                                                        Reform.                 95).            
H. Res. 44 (1/24/95)...........  MC...............  H. Con. Res. 17..  Social Security.......  A: 255-172 (1/25/
                                                    H.J. Res. 1......  Balanced Budget Amdt..   95).            
H. Res. 51 (1/31/95)...........  O................  H.R. 101.........  Land Transfer, Taos     A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Pueblo Indians.         1/95).          
H. Res. 52 (1/31/95)...........  O................  H.R. 400.........  Land Exchange, Arctic   A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Nat'l. Park and         1/95).          
                                                                        Preserve.                               
H. Res. 53 (1/31/95)...........  O................  H.R. 440.........  Land Conveyance, Butte  A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        County, Calif.          1/95).          
H. Res. 55 (2/1/95)............  O................  H.R. 2...........  Line Item Veto........  A: voice vote (2/
                                                                                                2/95).          
H. Res. 60 (2/6/95)............  O................  H.R. 665.........  Victim Restitution....  A: voice vote (2/
                                                                                                7/95).          
H. Res. 61 (2/6/95)............  O................  H.R. 666.........  Exclusionary Rule       A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Reform.                 7/95).          
H. Res. 63 (2/8/95)............  MO...............  H.R. 667.........  Violent Criminal        A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Incarceration.          9/95).          
H. Res. 69 (2/9/95)............  O................  H.R. 668.........  Criminal Alien          A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Deportation.            10/95).         
H. Res. 79 (2/10/95)...........  MO...............  H.R. 728.........  Law Enforcement Block   A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Grants.                 13/95).         
H. Res. 83 (2/13/95)...........  MO...............  H.R. 7...........  National Security       PQ: 229-100; A:  
                                                                        Revitalization.         227-127 (2/15/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 88 (2/16/95)...........  MC...............  H.R. 831.........  Health Insurance        PQ: 230-191; A:  
                                                                        Deductibility.          229-188 (2/21/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 91 (2/21/95)...........  O................  H.R. 830.........  Paperwork Reduction     A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Act.                    22/95).         
H. Res. 92 (2/21/95)...........  MC...............  H.R. 889.........  Defense Supplemental..  A: 282-144 (2/22/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 93 (2/22/95)...........  MO...............  H.R. 450.........  Regulatory Transition   A: 252-175 (2/23/
                                                                        Act.                    95).            
H. Res. 96 (2/24/95)...........  MO...............  H.R. 1022........  Risk Assessment.......  A: 253-165 (2/27/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 100 (2/27/95)..........  O................  H.R. 926.........  Regulatory Reform and   A: voice vote (2/
                                                                        Relief Act.             28/95).         
H. Res. 101 (2/28/95)..........  MO...............  H.R. 925.........  Private Property        A: 271-151 (3/2/ 
                                                                        Protection Act.         95).            
H. Res. 103 (3/3/95)...........  MO...............  H.R. 1058........  Securities Litigation   .................
                                                                        Reform.                                 
H. Res. 104 (3/3/95)...........  MO...............  H.R. 988.........  Attorney                A: voice vote (3/
                                                                        Accountability Act.     6/95).          
H. Res. 105 (3/6/95)...........  MO...............  .................  ......................  A: 257-155 (3/7/ 
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 108 (3/7/95)...........  Debate...........  H.R. 956.........  Product Liability       A: voice vote (3/
                                                                        Reform.                 8/95).          
H. Res. 109 (3/8/95)...........  MC...............  .................  ......................  PQ: 234-191 A:   
                                                                                                247-181 (3/9/   
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 115 (3/14/95)..........  MO...............  H.R. 1159........  Making Emergency Supp.  A: 242-190 (3/15/
                                                                        Approps.                95).            
H. Res. 116 (3/15/95)..........  MC...............  H.J. Res. 73.....  Term Limits Const.      A: voice vote (3/
                                                                        Amdt.                   28/95).         
H. Res. 117 (3/16/95)..........  Debate...........  H.R. 4...........  Personal                A: voice vote (3/
                                                                        Responsibility Act of   21/95).         
                                                                        1995.                                   
H. Res. 119 (3/21/95)..........  MC...............  .................  ......................  A: 217-211 (3/22/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 125 (4/3/95)...........  O................  H.R. 1271........  Family Privacy          A: 423-1 (4/4/   
                                                                        Protection Act.         95).            
H. Res. 126 (4/3/95)...........  O................  H.R. 660.........  Older Persons Housing   A: voice vote (4/
                                                                        Act.                    6/95).          
H. Res. 128 (4/4/95)...........  MC...............  H.R. 1215........  Contract With America   A: 228-204 (4/5/ 
                                                                        Tax Relief Act of       95).            
                                                                        1995.                                   
H. Res. 130 (4/5/95)...........  MC...............  H.R. 483.........  Medicare Select          A: 253-172 (4/6/
                                                                        Expansion.              95).            
H. Res. 136 (5/1/95)...........  O................  H.R. 655.........  Hydrogen Future Act of  A: voice vote (5/
                                                                        1995.                   2/95).          
H. Res. 139 (5/3/95)...........  O................  H.R. 1361........  Coast Guard Auth. FY    A: voice vote (5/
                                                                        1996.                   9/95).          
H. Res. 140 (5/9/95)...........  O................  H.R. 961.........  Clean Water Amendments  A: 414-4 (5/10/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 144 (5/11/95)..........  O................  H.R. 535.........  Fish Hatchery--         A: voice vote (5/
                                                                        Arkansas.               15/95).         
H. Res. 145 (5/11/95)..........  O................  H.R. 584.........  Fish Hatchery--Iowa...  A: voice vote (5/
                                                                                                15/95).         
H. Res. 146 (5/11/95)..........  O................  H.R. 614.........  Fish Hatchery--         A: voice vote (5/
                                                                        Minnesota.              15/95).         
H. Res. 149 (5/16/95)..........  MC...............  H. Con. Res. 67..  Budget Resolution FY    PQ: 252-170 A:   
                                                                        1996.                   255-168 (5/17/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 155 (5/22/95)..........  MO...............  H.R. 1561........  American Overseas       A: 233-176 (5/23/
                                                                        Interests Act.          95).            
H. Res. 164 (6/8/95)...........  MC...............  H.R. 1530........  Nat. Defense Auth. FY   PQ: 225-191 A:   
                                                                        1996.                   233-183 (6/13/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 167 (6/15/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1817........  MilCon Appropriations   PQ: 223-180 A:   
                                                                        FY 1996.                245-155 (6/16/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 169 (6/19/95)..........  MC...............  H.R. 1854........  Leg. Branch Approps.    PQ: 232-196 A:   
                                                                        FY 1996.                236-191 (6/20/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 170 (6/20/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1868........  For. Ops. Approps. FY   PQ: 221-178 A:   
                                                                        1996.                   217-175 (6/22/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 171 (6/22/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1905........  Energy & Water          A: voice vote (7/
                                                                        Approps. FY 1996.       12/95).         
H. Res. 173 (6/27/95)..........  C................  H.J. Res. 79.....  Flag Constitutional     PQ: 258-170 A:   
                                                                        Amendment.              271-152 (6/28/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 176 (6/28/95)..........  MC...............  H.R. 1944........  Emer. Supp. Approps...  PQ: 236-194 A:   
                                                                                                234-192 (6/29/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 185 (7/11/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1977........  Interior Approps. FY    PQ: 235-193 D:   
                                                                        1996.                   192-238 (7/12/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 187 (7/12/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1977........  Interior Approps. FY    PQ: 230-194 A:   
                                                                        1996 #2.                229-195 (7/13/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 188 (7/12/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1976........  Agriculture Approps.    PQ: 242-185 A:   
                                                                        FY 1996.                voice vote (7/18/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 190 (7/17/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2020........  Treasury/Postal         PQ: 232-192 A:   
                                                                        Approps. FY 1996.       voice vote (7/18/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 193 (7/19/95)..........  C................  H.J. Res. 96.....  Disapproval of MFN to   A: voice vote (7/
                                                                        China.                  20/95).         
H. Res. 194 (7/19/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2002........  Transportation          PQ: 217-202 (7/21/
                                                                        Approps. FY 1996.       95).            
H. Res. 197 (7/21/95)..........  O................  H.R. 70..........  Exports of Alaskan      A: voice vote (7/
                                                                        Crude Oil.              24/95).         
H. Res. 198 (7/21/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2076........  Commerce, State         A: voice vote (7/
                                                                        Approps. FY 1996.       25/95).         
H. Res. 201 (7/25/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2099........  VA/HUD Approps. FY      A: 230-189 (7/25/
                                                                        1996.                   95).            
H. Res. 204 (7/28/95)..........  MC...............  S. 21............  Terminating U.S. Arms   A: voice vote (8/
                                                                        Embargo on Bosnia.      1/95).          
H. Res. 205 (7/28/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2126........  Defense Approps. FY     A: 409-1 (7/31/  
                                                                        1996.                   95).            
H. Res. 207 (8/1/95)...........  MC...............  H.R. 1555........  Communications Act of   A: 255-156 (8/2/ 
                                                                        1995.                   95).            
H. Res. 208 (8/1/95)...........  O................  H.R. 2127........  Labor, HHS Approps. FY  A: 323-104 (8/2/ 
                                                                        1996.                   95).            
H. Res. 215 (9/7/95)...........  O................  H.R. 1594........  Economically Targeted   A: voice vote (9/
                                                                        Investments.            12/95).         
H. Res. 216 (9/7/95)...........  MO...............  H.R. 1655........  Intelligence            A: voice vote (9/
                                                                        Authorization FY 1996.  12/95).         
H. Res. 218 (9/12/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1162........  Deficit Reduction       A: voice vote (9/
                                                                        Lockbox.                13/95).         
H. Res. 219 (9/12/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1670........  Federal Acquisition     A: 414-0 (9/13/  
                                                                        Reform Act.             95).            
H. Res. 222 (9/18/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1617........  CAREERS Act...........  A: 388-2 (9/19/  
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 224 (9/19/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2274........  Natl. Highway System..  PQ: 241-173 A:   
                                                                                                375-39-1 (9/20/ 
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 225 (9/19/95)..........  MC...............  H.R. 927.........  Cuban Liberty & Dem.    A: 304-118 (9/20/
                                                                        Solidarity.             95).            
H. Res. 226 (9/21/95)..........  O................  H.R. 743.........  Team Act..............  A: 344-66-1 (9/27/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 227 (9/21/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1170........  3-Judge Court.........  A: voice vote (9/
                                                                                                28/95).         
H. Res. 228 (9/21/95)..........  O................  H.R. 1601........  Internatl. Space        A: voice vote (9/
                                                                        Station.                27/95).         
H. Res. 230 (9/27/95)..........  C................  H.J. Res. 108....  Continuing Resolution   A: voice vote (9/
                                                                        FY 1996.                28/95).         

[[Page H13208]]
                                                                                                                
H. Res. 234 (9/29/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2405........  Omnibus Science Auth..  A: voice vote (10/
                                                                                                11/95).         
H. Res. 237 (10/17/95).........  MC...............  H.R. 2259........  Disapprove Sentencing   A: voice vote (10/
                                                                        Guidelines.             18/95).         
H. Res. 238 (10/18/95).........  MC...............  H.R. 2425........  Medicare Preservation   PQ: 231-194 A:   
                                                                        Act.                    227-192 (10/19/ 
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 239 (10/19/95).........  C................  H.R. 2492........  Leg. Branch Approps...  PQ: 235-184 A:   
                                                                                                voice vote (10/ 
                                                                                                31/95).         
H. Res. 245 (10/25/95).........  MC...............  H. Con. Res. 109.  Social Security         PQ: 228-191 A:   
                                                    H.R. 2491........   Earnings Reform.        235-185 (10/26/ 
                                                                       Seven-Year Balanced      95).            
                                                                        Budget.                                 
H. Res. 251 (10/31/95).........  C................  H.R. 1833........  Partial Birth Abortion  A: 237-190 (11/1/
                                                                        Ban.                    95).            
H. Res. 252 (10/31/95).........  MO...............  H.R. 2546........  D.C. Approps..........  A: 241-181 (11/1/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 257 (11/7/95)..........  C................  H.J. Res. 115....  Cont. Res. FY 1996....  A: 216-210 (11/8/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 258 (11/8/95)..........  MC...............  H.R. 2586........  Debt Limit............  A: 220-200 (11/10/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 259 (11/9/95)..........  O................  H.R. 2539........  ICC Termination Act...  A: voice vote (11/
                                                                                                14/95).         
H. Res. 261 (11/9/95)..........  C................  H.J. Res. 115....  Cont. Resolution......  A: 223-182 (11/10/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 262 (11/9/95)..........  C................  H.R. 2586........  Increase Debt Limit...  A: 220-185 (11/10/
                                                                                                95).            
H. Res. 269 (11/15/95).........  O................  H.R. 2564........  Lobbying Reform.......  A: voice vote (11/
                                                                                                16/95).         
H. Res. 270 (11/15/95).........  C................  H.J. Res. 122....  Further Cont.           A: 229-176 (11/15/
                                                                        Resolution.             95).            
H. Res. 272 (11/16/95).........  MC...............  H.R. 2606........  Prohibition on Funds    .................
                                                                        for Bosnia.                             
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Codes: O-open rule; MO-modified open rule; MC-modified closed rule; C-closed rule; A-adoption vote; D-defeated; 
  PQ-previous question vote. Source: Notices of Action Taken, Committee on Rules, 104th Congress.               


  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may 
consume.
  (Mr. HALL of Ohio asked and was given permission to revise and extend 
his remarks.)
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, House Resolution 273 is a modified 
closed rule which will allow consideration of H.R. 2606, a bill to 
prohibit funds appropriated to the Department of Defense from being 
used to deploy United States ground forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina 
for peacekeeping operations.
  As my colleague from New York, the chairman of the Rules Committee, 
Mr. Solomon, described, this rule provides 1 hour of general debate, 
equally divided and controlled by the chairman and ranking minority 
member of the Committee on National Security.
  Under this modified closed rule, the minority leader or his designee 
may offer one motion to amend, debatable for 1 hour.
  Mr. Speaker, this is more than a vote on sending troops overseas. It 
is a vote on whether this Nation stands behind a peace process that has 
a chance to stop the terrible war in Bosnia which has raged for 4 
years.
  Now is not the time to take up this issue. As we speak, the leaders 
of Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia are engaged in peace talks at Wright-
Patterson Air Force Base outside Dayton, OH. These talks, under the 
sponsorship of the U.S. Government, are the best and last chance for 
peace in the Balkans.

  This bill, coming at this time, will seriously undermine the peace 
negotiations in Dayton and could lead to renewed bloodshed in Bosnia.
  Securing peace in Bosnia is in the national interest. The conflict in 
this region represents the most dangerous military threat to Europe in 
the last 50 years. Two world wars during this century were the result 
of failing to secure the peace in Europe and we must take every 
reasonable step to prevent this from happening again for the sake of 
our own national security.
  Earlier this year, I traveled to Bosnia and Herzegovina and saw first 
hand the savage war that is tearing that region apart. I met women and 
children who were forced out of their homes and who were petrified that 
their missing fathers, husbands, and sons had ended up in some mass 
grave. I saw pain, suffering, and tragedy. That trip convinced me more 
than ever the importance of establishing peace in the region and the 
possibility of the United States serving as an essential link in the 
peace process.
  It also convinced me that the United States can play a pivotal role 
in establishing humanitarian assistance to the people of this region as 
part of a negotiated peace settlement.
  Nobody denies that Congress has a critical role in approving use of 
United States Armed Forces for peacekeeping in the Balkans. We have 
found from experience that a successful U.S. military action requires 
the approval of the American people and their representatives in 
Congress.
  The President shares this view. In a November 13, 1995, letter to 
Speaker Gingrich, the President promised that he will ask Congress for 
an expression of support for United States participation in a NATO-led 
implementation force in Bosnia promptly if and when the parties have 
initialed a genuine peace agreement. After initializing an agreement, 
he assured us and I quote:

       There will be a timely opportunity for Congress to consider 
     and act upon my request for support before American forces 
     are deployed in Bosnia.

  During my term as a House Member, one of the great moments in this 
Chamber was the debate over sending U.S. troops to participate in the 
Gulf war. After lengthy and sincere debate, the House supported 
President Bush's request.
  The House action came in response to a specific request by President 
Bush for congressional approval after the President had developed his 
objectives in the Gulf. Congress didn't jump the gun by forcing a vote 
before the President was ready.
  Congress did not even take up the issue until President Bush had 
already deployed a half million U.S. troops to the Persian Gulf. 
Congress waited. Congress gave the President a chance. Congress even 
let the President send a half million troops, ready to fight a war, and 
then and only then did Congress debate the issue. We waited because we 
didn't want to tie the President's hands.
  By contrast, President Clinton has promised Congress that he will 
come back to us before any troops are deployed.
  We need to wait until the President has had time to reach a peace 
agreement. Then and only then can we carry out the kind of serious 
debate of which this body is capable.
  I have faith in the President and his negotiating team led by 
Assistant Secretary Richard Holbrooke. I believe that a peace agreement 
can be reached. But that won't happen if Congress gets in the way too 
early.
  Passage of this bill will hurt the peace process. If we pass this 
bill now, we will tie the President's hands and reduce his ability to 
negotiate a peace with the warring factions.
  My community of Dayton, OH, has a special interest in this process. I 
represent a portion of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which is the 
site of the proximity talks between the Balkan leaders.
  We are honored that the State Department chose our community as the 
site of the talks. We have a great deal of pride in hosting the talks. 
We would like the Dayton talks to be remembered as a pivotal moment in 
world peace, not a footnote to the history of warfare in this turbulent 
region.
  Mr. Speaker, the modified closed rule sets fair conditions for 
debating this critical issue of war and peace. My objection is directed 
toward the bill and its consideration at this time.
  We must vote to give peace a chance. We must not jeopardize the 
opportunity to end the fighting. Vote against the bill, against the 
suffering and tragedy in Bosnia.

[[Page H13209]]


                FLOOR PROCEDURE IN THE 104TH CONGRESS; COMPILED BY THE RULES COMMITTEE DEMOCRATS                
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                          Process used for floor   Amendments in
            Bill No.                    Title           Resolution No.         consideration           order    
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H.R. 1*........................  Compliance........  H. Res. 6            Closed................           None.
H. Res. 6......................  Opening Day Rules   H. Res. 5            Closed; contained a              None.
                                  Package.                                 closed rule on H.R. 1                
                                                                           within the closed                    
                                                                           rule.                                
H.R. 5*........................  Unfunded Mandates.  H. Res. 38           Restrictive; Motion               N/A.
                                                                           adopted over                         
                                                                           Democratic objection                 
                                                                           in the Committee of                  
                                                                           the Whole to limit                   
                                                                           debate on section 4;                 
                                                                           Pre-printing gets                    
                                                                           preference.                          
H.J. Res. 2*...................  Balanced Budget...  H. Res. 44           Restrictive; only              2R; 4D.
                                                                           certain substitutes.                 
H. Res. 43.....................  Committee Hearings  H. Res. 43 (OJ)      Restrictive;                      N/A.
                                  Scheduling.                              considered in House                  
                                                                           no amendments.                       
H.R. 2*........................  Line Item Veto....  H. Res. 55           Open; Pre-printing                N/A.
                                                                           gets preference.                     
H.R. 665*......................  Victim Restitution  H. Res. 61           Open; Pre-printing                N/A.
                                  Act of 1995.                             gets preference.                     
H.R. 666*......................  Exclusionary Rule   H. Res. 60           Open; Pre-printing                N/A.
                                  Reform Act of                            gets preference.                     
                                  1995.                                                                         
H.R. 667*......................  Violent Criminal    H. Res. 63           Restrictive; 10 hr.               N/A.
                                  Incarceration Act                        Time Cap on                          
                                  of 1995.                                 amendments.                          
H.R. 668*......................  The Criminal Alien  H. Res. 69           Open; Pre-printing                N/A.
                                  Deportation                              gets preference;                     
                                  Improvement Act.                         Contains self-                       
                                                                           executing provision.                 
H.R. 728*......................  Local Government    H. Res. 79           Restrictive; 10 hr.               N/A.
                                  Law Enforcement                          Time Cap on                          
                                  Block Grants.                            amendments; Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           preference.                          
H.R. 7*........................  National Security   H. Res. 83           Restrictive; 10 hr.               N/A.
                                  Revitalization                           Time Cap on                          
                                  Act.                                     amendments; Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           preference.                          
H.R. 729*......................  Death Penalty/      N/A                  Restrictive; brought              N/A.
                                  Habeas.                                  up under UC with a 6                 
                                                                           hr. time cap on                      
                                                                           amendments.                          
S. 2...........................  Senate Compliance.  N/A                  Closed; Put on                   None.
                                                                           Suspension Calendar                  
                                                                           over Democratic                      
                                                                           objection.                           
H.R. 831.......................  To Permanently      H. Res. 88           Restrictive; makes in              1D.
                                  Extend the Health                        order only the                       
                                  Insurance                                Gibbons amendment;                   
                                  Deduction for the                        Waives all points of                 
                                  Self-Employed.                           order; Contains self-                
                                                                           executing provision.                 
H.R. 830*......................  The Paperwork       H. Res. 91           Open..................            N/A.
                                  Reduction Act.                                                                
H.R. 889.......................  Emergency           H. Res. 92           Restrictive; makes in              1D.
                                  Supplemental/                            order only the Obey                  
                                  Rescinding                               substitute.                          
                                  Certain Budget                                                                
                                  Authority.                                                                    
H.R. 450*......................  Regulatory          H. Res. 93           Restrictive; 10 hr.               N/A.
                                  Moratorium.                              Time Cap on                          
                                                                           amendments; Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           preference.                          
H.R. 1022*.....................  Risk Assessment...  H. Res. 96           Restrictive; 10 hr.               N/A.
                                                                           Time Cap on                          
                                                                           amendments.                          
H.R. 926*......................  Regulatory          H. Res. 100          Open..................            N/A.
                                  Flexibility.                                                                  
H.R. 925*......................  Private Property    H. Res. 101          Restrictive; 12 hr.                1D.
                                  Protection Act.                          time cap on                          
                                                                           amendments; Requires                 
                                                                           Members to pre-print                 
                                                                           their amendments in                  
                                                                           the Record prior to                  
                                                                           the bill's                           
                                                                           consideration for                    
                                                                           amendment, waives                    
                                                                           germaneness and                      
                                                                           budget act points of                 
                                                                           order as well as                     
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           concerning                           
                                                                           appropriating on a                   
                                                                           legislative bill                     
                                                                           against the committee                
                                                                           substitute used as                   
                                                                           base text.                           
H.R. 1058*.....................  Securities          H. Res. 105          Restrictive; 8 hr.                 1D.
                                  Litigation Reform                        time cap on                          
                                  Act.                                     amendments; Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           preference; Makes in                 
                                                                           order the Wyden                      
                                                                           amendment and waives                 
                                                                           germaneness against                  
                                                                           it.                                  
H.R. 988*......................  The Attorney        H. Res. 104          Restrictive; 7 hr.                N/A.
                                  Accountability                           time cap on                          
                                  Act of 1995.                             amendments; Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           preference.                          
H.R. 956*......................  Product Liability   H. Res. 109          Restrictive; makes in          8D; 7R.
                                  and Legal Reform                         order only 15 germane                
                                  Act.                                     amendments and denies                
                                                                           64 germane amendments                
                                                                           from being considered.               
H.R. 1158......................  Making Emergency    H. Res. 115          Restrictive; Combines             N/A.
                                  Supplemental                             emergency H.R. 1158 &                
                                  Appropriations                           nonemergency 1159 and                
                                  and Rescissions.                         strikes the abortion                 
                                                                           provision; makes in                  
                                                                           order only pre-                      
                                                                           printed amendments                   
                                                                           that include offsets                 
                                                                           within the same                      
                                                                           chapter (deeper cuts                 
                                                                           in programs already                  
                                                                           cut); waives points                  
                                                                           of order against                     
                                                                           three amendments;                    
                                                                           waives cl 2 of rule                  
                                                                           XXI against the bill,                
                                                                           cl 2, XXI and cl 7 of                
                                                                           rule XVI against the                 
                                                                           substitute; waives cl                
                                                                           2(e) od rule XXI                     
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendments in the                    
                                                                           Record; 10 hr time                   
                                                                           cap on amendments. 30                
                                                                           minutes debate on                    
                                                                           each amendment.                      
H.J. Res. 73*..................  Term Limits.......  H. Res. 116          Restrictive; Makes in           1D; 3R
                                                                           order only 4                         
                                                                           amendments considered                
                                                                           under a ``Queen of                   
                                                                           the Hill'' procedure                 
                                                                           and denies 21 germane                
                                                                           amendments from being                
                                                                           considered.                          
H.R. 4*........................  Welfare Reform....  H. Res. 119          Restrictive; Makes in         5D; 26R.
                                                                           order only 31                        
                                                                           perfecting amendments                
                                                                           and two substitutes;                 
                                                                           Denies 130 germane                   
                                                                           amendments from being                
                                                                           considered; The                      
                                                                           substitutes are to be                
                                                                           considered under a                   
                                                                           ``Queen of the Hill''                
                                                                           procedure; All points                
                                                                           of order are waived                  
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendments.                          
H.R. 1271*.....................  Family Privacy Act  H. Res. 125          Open..................            N/A.
H.R. 660*......................  Housing for Older   H. Res. 126          Open..................            N/A.
                                  Persons Act.                                                                  
H.R. 1215*.....................  The Contract With   H. Res. 129          Restrictive; Self                  1D.
                                  America Tax                              Executes language                    
                                  Relief Act of                            that makes tax cuts                  
                                  1995.                                    contingent on the                    
                                                                           adoption of a                        
                                                                           balanced budget plan                 
                                                                           and strikes section                  
                                                                           3006. Makes in order                 
                                                                           only one substitute.                 
                                                                           Waives all points of                 
                                                                           order against the                    
                                                                           bill, substitute made                
                                                                           in order as original                 
                                                                           text and Gephardt                    
                                                                           substitute.                          
H.R. 483.......................  Medicare Select     H. Res. 130          Restrictive; waives cl             1D.
                                  Extension.                               2(1)(6) of rule XI                   
                                                                           against the bill;                    
                                                                           makes H.R. 1391 in                   
                                                                           order as original                    
                                                                           text; makes in order                 
                                                                           only the Dingell                     
                                                                           substitute; allows                   
                                                                           Commerce Committee to                
                                                                           file a report on the                 
                                                                           bill at any time.                    
H.R. 655.......................  Hydrogen Future     H. Res. 136          Open..................            N/A.
                                  Act.                                                                          
H.R. 1361......................  Coast Guard         H. Res. 139          Open; waives sections             N/A.
                                  Authorization.                           302(f) and 308(a) of                 
                                                                           the Congressional                    
                                                                           Budget Act against                   
                                                                           the bill's                           
                                                                           consideration and the                
                                                                           committee substitute;                
                                                                           waives cl 5(a) of                    
                                                                           rule XXI against the                 
                                                                           committee substitute.                
H.R. 961.......................  Clean Water Act...  H. Res. 140          Open; pre-printing                N/A.
                                                                           gets preference;                     
                                                                           waives sections                      
                                                                           302(f) and 602(b) of                 
                                                                           the Budget Act                       
                                                                           against the bill's                   
                                                                           consideration; waives                
                                                                           cl 7 of rule XVI, cl                 
                                                                           5(a) of rule XXI and                 
                                                                           section 302(f) of the                
                                                                           Budget Act against                   
                                                                           the committee                        
                                                                           substitute. Makes in                 
                                                                           order Shuster                        
                                                                           substitute as first                  
                                                                           order of business.                   
H.R. 535.......................  Corning National    H. Res. 144          Open..................            N/A.
                                  Fish Hatchery                                                                 
                                  Conveyance Act.                                                               
H.R. 584.......................  Conveyance of the   H. Res. 145          Open..................            N/A.
                                  Fairport National                                                             
                                  Fish Hatchery to                                                              
                                  the State of Iowa.                                                            
H.R. 614.......................  Conveyance of the   H. Res. 146          Open..................            N/A.
                                  New London                                                                    
                                  National Fish                                                                 
                                  Hatchery                                                                      
                                  Production                                                                    
                                  Facility.                                                                     
H. Con. Res. 67................  Budget Resolution.  H. Res. 149          Restrictive; Makes in          3D; 1R.
                                                                           order 4 substitutes                  
                                                                           under regular order;                 
                                                                           Gephardt, Neumann/                   
                                                                           Solomon, Payne/Owens,                
                                                                           President's Budget if                
                                                                           printed in Record on                 
                                                                           5/17/95; waives all                  
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against substitutes                  
                                                                           and concurrent                       
                                                                           resolution; suspends                 
                                                                           application of Rule                  
                                                                           XLIX with respect to                 
                                                                           the resolution; self-                
                                                                           executes Agriculture                 
                                                                           language.                            
H.R. 1561......................  American Overseas   H. Res. 155          Restrictive; Requires             N/A.
                                  Interests Act of                         amendments to be                     
                                  1995.                                    printed in the Record                
                                                                           prior to their                       
                                                                           consideration; 10 hr.                
                                                                           time cap; waives cl                  
                                                                           2(1)(6) of rule XI                   
                                                                           against the bill's                   
                                                                           consideration; Also                  
                                                                           waives sections                      
                                                                           302(f), 303(a),                      
                                                                           308(a) and 402(a)                    
                                                                           against the bill's                   
                                                                           consideration and the                
                                                                           committee amendment                  
                                                                           in order as original                 
                                                                           text; waives cl 5(a)                 
                                                                           of rule XXI against                  
                                                                           the amendment;                       
                                                                           amendment                            
                                                                           consideration is                     
                                                                           closed at 2:30 p.m.                  
                                                                           on May 25, 1995. Self-               
                                                                           executes provision                   
                                                                           which removes section                
                                                                           2210 from the bill.                  
                                                                           This was done at the                 
                                                                           request of the Budget                
                                                                           Committee.                           
H.R. 1530......................  National Defense    H. Res. 164          Restrictive; Makes in      36R; 18D; 2
                                  Authorization Act                        order only the            Bipartisan.
                                  FY 1996.                                 amendments printed in                
                                                                           the report; waives                   
                                                                           all points of order                  
                                                                           against the bill,                    
                                                                           substitute and                       
                                                                           amendments printed in                
                                                                           the report. Gives the                
                                                                           Chairman en bloc                     
                                                                           authority. Self-                     
                                                                           executes a provision                 
                                                                           which strikes section                
                                                                           807 of the bill;                     
                                                                           provides for an                      
                                                                           additional 30 min. of                
                                                                           debate on Nunn-Lugar                 
                                                                           section; Allows Mr.                  
                                                                           Clinger to offer a                   
                                                                           modification of his                  
                                                                           amendment with the                   
                                                                           concurrence of Ms.                   
                                                                           Collins.                             
H.R. 1817......................  Military            H. Res. 167          Open; waives cl. 2 and            N/A.
                                  Construction                             cl. 6 of rule XXI                    
                                  Appropriations;                          against the bill; 1                  
                                  FY 1996.                                 hr. general debate;                  
                                                                           Uses House passed                    
                                                                           budget numbers as                    
                                                                           threshold for                        
                                                                           spending amounts                     
                                                                           pending passage of                   
                                                                           Budget.                              
H.R. 1854......................  Legislative Branch  H. Res. 169          Restrictive; Makes in        5R; 4D; 2
                                  Appropriations.                          order only 11             Bipartisan.
                                                                           amendments; waives                   
                                                                           sections 302(f) and                  
                                                                           308(a) of the Budget                 
                                                                           Act against the bill                 
                                                                           and cl. 2 and cl. 6                  
                                                                           of rule XXI against                  
                                                                           the bill. All points                 
                                                                           of order are waived                  
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendments.                          
H.R. 1868......................  Foreign Operations  H. Res. 170          Open; waives cl. 2,               N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          cl. 5(b), and cl. 6                  
                                                                           of rule XXI against                  
                                                                           the bill; makes in                   
                                                                           order the Gilman                     
                                                                           amendments as first                  
                                                                           order of business;                   
                                                                           waives all points of                 
                                                                           order against the                    
                                                                           amendments; if                       
                                                                           adopted they will be                 
                                                                           considered as                        
                                                                           original text; waives                
                                                                           cl. 2 of rule XXI                    
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendments printed in                
                                                                           the report. Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority (Hall)                      
                                                                           (Menendez) (Goss)                    
                                                                           (Smith, NJ).                         
H.R. 1905......................  Energy & Water      H. Res. 171          Open; waives cl. 2 and            N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          cl. 6 of rule XXI                    
                                                                           against the bill;                    
                                                                           makes in order the                   
                                                                           Shuster amendment as                 
                                                                           the first order of                   
                                                                           business; waives all                 
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendment; if adopted                
                                                                           it will be considered                
                                                                           as original text. Pre-               
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority.                            
H.J. Res. 79...................  Constitutional      H. Res. 173          Closed; provides one              N/A.
                                  Amendment to                             hour of general                      
                                  Permit Congress                          debate and one motion                
                                  and States to                            to recommit with or                  
                                  Prohibit the                             without instructions;                
                                  Physical                                 if there are                         
                                  Desecration of                           instructions, the MO                 
                                  the American Flag.                       is debatable for 1 hr.               
H.R. 1944......................  Recissions Bill...  H. Res. 175          Restrictive; Provides             N/A.
                                                                           for consideration of                 
                                                                           the bill in the                      
                                                                           House; Permits the                   
                                                                           Chairman of the                      
                                                                           Appropriations                       
                                                                           Committee to offer                   
                                                                           one amendment which                  
                                                                           is unamendable;                      
                                                                           waives all points of                 
                                                                           order against the                    
                                                                           amendment.                           
H.R. 1868 (2nd rule)...........  Foreign Operations  H. Res. 177          Restrictive; Provides             N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          for further                          
                                                                           consideration of the                 
                                                                           bill; makes in order                 
                                                                           only the four                        
                                                                           amendments printed in                
                                                                           the rules report (20                 
                                                                           min each). Waives all                
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendments; Prohibits                
                                                                           intervening motions                  
                                                                           in the Committee of                  
                                                                           the Whole; Provides                  
                                                                           for an automatic rise                
                                                                           and report following                 
                                                                           the disposition of                   
                                                                           the amendments.                      
H.R. 1977 *Rule Defeated*......  Interior            H. Res. 185          Open; waives sections             N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          302(f) and 308(a) of                 
                                                                           the Budget Act and cl                
                                                                           2 and cl 6 of rule                   
                                                                           XXI; provides that                   
                                                                           the bill be read by                  
                                                                           title; waives all                    
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the Tauzin                   
                                                                           amendment; self-                     
                                                                           executes Budget                      
                                                                           Committee amendment;                 
                                                                           waives cl 2(e) of                    
                                                                           rule XXI against                     
                                                                           amendments to the                    
                                                                           bill; Pre-printing                   
                                                                           gets priority.                       
H.R. 1977......................  Interior            H.Res. 187           Open; waives sections             N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          302(f), 306 and                      
                                                                           308(a) of the Budget                 
                                                                           Act; waives clauses 2                
                                                                           and 6 of rule XXI                    
                                                                           against provisions in                
                                                                           the bill; waives all                 
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the Tauzin                   
                                                                           amendment; provides                  
                                                                           that the bill be read                
                                                                           by title; self-                      
                                                                           executes Budget                      
                                                                           Committee amendment                  
                                                                           and makes NEA funding                
                                                                           subject to House                     
                                                                           passed authorization;                
                                                                           waives cl 2(e) of                    
                                                                           rule XXI against the                 
                                                                           amendments to the                    
                                                                           bill; Pre-printing                   
                                                                           gets priority.                       

[[Page H13210]]
                                                                                                                
H.R. 1976......................  Agriculture         H. Res. 188          Open; waives clauses 2            N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          and 6 of rule XXI                    
                                                                           against provisions in                
                                                                           the bill; provides                   
                                                                           that the bill be read                
                                                                           by title; Makes Skeen                
                                                                           amendment first order                
                                                                           of business, if                      
                                                                           adopted the amendment                
                                                                           will be considered as                
                                                                           base text (10 min.);                 
                                                                           Pre-printing gets                    
                                                                           priority.                            
H.R. 1977 (3rd rule)...........  Interior            H. Res. 189          Restrictive; provides             N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          for the further                      
                                                                           consideration of the                 
                                                                           bill; allows only                    
                                                                           amendments pre-                      
                                                                           printed before July                  
                                                                           14th to be                           
                                                                           considered; limits                   
                                                                           motions to rise.                     
H.R. 2020......................  Treasury Postal     H. Res. 190          Open; waives cl. 2 and            N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          cl. 6 of rule XXI                    
                                                                           against provisions in                
                                                                           the bill; provides                   
                                                                           the bill be read by                  
                                                                           title; Pre-printing                  
                                                                           gets priority.                       
H.J. Res. 96...................  Disapproving MFN    H. Res. 193          Restrictive; provides             N/A.
                                  for China.                               for consideration in                 
                                                                           the House of H.R.                    
                                                                           2058 (90 min.) And                   
                                                                           H.J. Res. 96 (1 hr).                 
                                                                           Waives certain                       
                                                                           provisions of the                    
                                                                           Trade Act.                           
H.R. 2002......................  Transportation      H. Res. 194          Open; waives cl. 3 0f             N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          rule XIII and section                
                                                                           401 (a) of the CBA                   
                                                                           against consideration                
                                                                           of the bill; waives                  
                                                                           cl. 6 and cl. 2 of                   
                                                                           rule XXI against                     
                                                                           provisions in the                    
                                                                           bill; Makes in order                 
                                                                           the Clinger/Solomon                  
                                                                           amendment waives all                 
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the amendment                
                                                                           (Line Item Veto);                    
                                                                           provides the bill be                 
                                                                           read by title; Pre-                  
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority. *RULE                      
                                                                           AMENDED*.                            
H.R. 70........................  Exports of Alaskan  H. Res. 197          Open; Makes in order              N/A.
                                  North Slope Oil.                         the Resources                        
                                                                           Committee amendment                  
                                                                           in the nature of a                   
                                                                           substitute as                        
                                                                           original text; Pre-                  
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority; Provides a                 
                                                                           Senate hook-up with                  
                                                                           S. 395.                              
H.R. 2076......................  Commerce, Justice   H. Res. 198          Open; waives cl. 2 and            N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          cl. 6 of rule XXI                    
                                                                           against provisions in                
                                                                           the bill; Pre-                       
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority; provides                   
                                                                           the bill be read by                  
                                                                           title..                              
H.R. 2099......................  VA/HUD              H. Res. 201          Open; waives cl. 2 and            N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          cl. 6 of rule XXI                    
                                                                           against provisions in                
                                                                           the bill; Provides                   
                                                                           that the amendment in                
                                                                           part 1 of the report                 
                                                                           is the first                         
                                                                           business, if adopted                 
                                                                           it will be considered                
                                                                           as base text (30                     
                                                                           min); waives all                     
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the Klug and                 
                                                                           Davis amendments; Pre-               
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority; Provides                   
                                                                           that the bill be read                
                                                                           by title.                            
S. 21..........................  Termination of      H. Res. 204          Restrictive; 3 hours               ID.
                                  U.S. Arms Embargo                        of general debate;                   
                                  on Bosnia.                               Makes in order an                    
                                                                           amendment to be                      
                                                                           offered by the                       
                                                                           Minority Leader or a                 
                                                                           designee (1 hr); If                  
                                                                           motion to recommit                   
                                                                           has instructions it                  
                                                                           can only be offered                  
                                                                           by the Minority                      
                                                                           Leader or a designee.                
H.R. 2126......................  Defense             H. Res. 205          Open; waives cl.                  N/A.
                                  Appropriations.                          2(l)(6) of rule XI                   
                                                                           and section 306 of                   
                                                                           the Congressional                    
                                                                           Budget Act against                   
                                                                           consideration of the                 
                                                                           bill; waives cl. 2                   
                                                                           and cl. 6 of rule XXI                
                                                                           against provisions in                
                                                                           the bill; self-                      
                                                                           executes a strike of                 
                                                                           sections 8021 and                    
                                                                           8024 of the bill as                  
                                                                           requested by the                     
                                                                           Budget Committee; Pre-               
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority; Provides                   
                                                                           the bill be read by                  
                                                                           title.                               
H.R. 1555......................  Communications Act  H. Res. 207          Restrictive; waives        2R/3D/3 Bi-
                                  of 1995.                                 sec. 302(f) of the          partisan.
                                                                           Budget Act against                   
                                                                           consideration of the                 
                                                                           bill; Makes in order                 
                                                                           the Commerce                         
                                                                           Committee amendment                  
                                                                           as original text and                 
                                                                           waives sec. 302(f) of                
                                                                           the Budget Act and                   
                                                                           cl. 5(a) of rule XXI                 
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendment; Makes in                  
                                                                           order the Bliely                     
                                                                           amendment (30 min) as                
                                                                           the first order of                   
                                                                           business, if adopted                 
                                                                           it will be original                  
                                                                           text; makes in order                 
                                                                           only the amendments                  
                                                                           printed in the report                
                                                                           and waives all points                
                                                                           of order against the                 
                                                                           amendments; provides                 
                                                                           a Senate hook-up with                
                                                                           S. 652.                              
H.R. 2127......................  Labor/HHS           H. Res. 208          Open; Provides that                N/A
                                  Appropriations                           the first order of                   
                                  Act.                                     business will be the                 
                                                                           managers amendments                  
                                                                           (10 min), if adopted                 
                                                                           they will be                         
                                                                           considered as base                   
                                                                           text; waives cl. 2                   
                                                                           and cl. 6 of rule XXI                
                                                                           against provisions in                
                                                                           the bill; waives all                 
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against certain                      
                                                                           amendments printed in                
                                                                           the report; Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority; Provides                   
                                                                           the bill be read by                  
                                                                           title.                               
H.R. 1594......................  Economically        H. Res. 215          Open; 2 hr of gen.                 N/A
                                  Targeted                                 debate. makes in                     
                                  Investments.                             order the committee                  
                                                                           substitute as                        
                                                                           original text.                       
H.R. 1655......................  Intelligence        H. Res. 216          Restrictive; waives                N/A
                                  Authorization.                           sections 302(f),                     
                                                                           308(a) and 401(b) of                 
                                                                           the Budget Act. Makes                
                                                                           in order the                         
                                                                           committee substitute                 
                                                                           as modified by Govt.                 
                                                                           Reform amend                         
                                                                           (striking sec. 505)                  
                                                                           and an amendment                     
                                                                           striking title VII.                  
                                                                           Cl 7 of rule XVI and                 
                                                                           cl 5(a) of rule XXI                  
                                                                           are waived against                   
                                                                           the substitute.                      
                                                                           Sections 302(f) and                  
                                                                           401(b) of the CBA are                
                                                                           also waived against                  
                                                                           the substitute.                      
                                                                           Amendments must also                 
                                                                           be pre-printed in the                
                                                                           Congressional record.                
H.R. 1162......................  Deficit Reduction   H. Res. 218          Open; waives cl 7 of               N/A
                                  Lock Box.                                rule XVI against the                 
                                                                           committee substitute                 
                                                                           made in order as                     
                                                                           original text; Pre-                  
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority.                            
H.R. 1670......................  Federal             H. Res. 219          Open; waives sections              N/A
                                  Acquisition                              302(f) and 308(a) of                 
                                  Reform Act of                            the Budget Act                       
                                  1995.                                    against consideration                
                                                                           of the bill; bill                    
                                                                           will be read by                      
                                                                           title; waives cl 5(a)                
                                                                           of rule XXI and                      
                                                                           section 302(f) of the                
                                                                           Budget Act against                   
                                                                           the committee                        
                                                                           substitute. Pre-                     
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority.                            
H.R. 1617......................  To Consolidate and  H. Res. 222          Open; waives section               N/A
                                  Reform Workforce                         302(f) and 401(b) of                 
                                  Development and                          the Budget Act                       
                                  Literacy Programs                        against the                          
                                  Act (CAREERS).                           substitute made in                   
                                                                           order as original                    
                                                                           text (H.R. 2332), cl.                
                                                                           5(a) of rule XXI is                  
                                                                           also waived against                  
                                                                           the substitute.                      
                                                                           provides for                         
                                                                           consideration of the                 
                                                                           managers amendment                   
                                                                           (10 min.) If adopted,                
                                                                           it is considered as                  
                                                                           base text.                           
H.R. 2274......................  National Highway    H. Res. 224          Open; waives section               N/A
                                  System                                   302(f) of the Budget                 
                                  Designation Act                          Act against                          
                                  of 1995.                                 consideration of the                 
                                                                           bill; Makes H.R. 2349                
                                                                           in order as original                 
                                                                           text; waives section                 
                                                                           302(f) of the Budget                 
                                                                           Act against the                      
                                                                           substitute; provides                 
                                                                           for the consideration                
                                                                           of a managers                        
                                                                           amendment (10 min) If                
                                                                           adopted, it is                       
                                                                           considered as base                   
                                                                           text; Pre-printing                   
                                                                           gets priority.                       
H.R. 927.......................  Cuban Liberty and   H. Res. 225          Restrictive; waives cl           2R/2D
                                  Democratic                               2(L)(2)(B) of rule XI                
                                  Solidarity Act of                        against consideration                
                                  1995.                                    of the bill; makes in                
                                                                           order H.R. 2347 as                   
                                                                           base text; waives cl                 
                                                                           7 of rule XVI against                
                                                                           the substitute; Makes                
                                                                           Hamilton amendment                   
                                                                           the first amendment                  
                                                                           to be considered (1                  
                                                                           hr). Makes in order                  
                                                                           only amendments                      
                                                                           printed in the report.               
H.R. 743.......................  The Teamwork for    H. Res. 226          Open; waives cl                    N/A
                                  Employees and                            2(l)(2)(b) of rule XI                
                                  managers Act of                          against consideration                
                                  1995.                                    of the bill; makes in                
                                                                           order the committee                  
                                                                           amendment as original                
                                                                           text; Pre-printing                   
                                                                           get priority.                        
H.R. 1170......................  3-Judge Court for   H. Res. 227          Open; makes in order a             N/A
                                  Certain                                  committee amendment                  
                                  Injunctions.                             as original text; Pre-               
                                                                           printing gets                        
                                                                           priority.                            
H.R. 1601......................  International       H. Res. 228          Open; makes in order a             N/A
                                  Space Station                            committee amendment                  
                                  Authorization Act                        as original text; pre-               
                                  of 1995.                                 printing gets                        
                                                                           priority.                            
H.J. Res. 108..................  Making Continuing   H. Res. 230          Closed; Provides for    ..............
                                  Appropriations                           the immediate                        
                                  for FY 1996.                             consideration of the                 
                                                                           CR; one motion to                    
                                                                           recommit which may                   
                                                                           have instructions                    
                                                                           only if offered by                   
                                                                           the Minority Leader                  
                                                                           or a designee.                       
H.R. 2405......................  Omnibus Civilian    H. Res. 234          Open; self-executes a              N/A
                                  Science                                  provision striking                   
                                  Authorization Act                        section 304(b)(3) of                 
                                  of 1995.                                 the bill (Commerce                   
                                                                           Committee request);                  
                                                                           Pre-printing gets                    
                                                                           priority.                            
H.R. 2259......................  To Disapprove       H. Res. 237          Restrictive; waives cl              1D
                                  Certain                                  2(l)(2)(B) of rule XI                
                                  Sentencing                               against the bill's                   
                                  Guideline                                consideration; makes                 
                                  Amendments.                              in order the text of                 
                                                                           the Senate bill S.                   
                                                                           1254 as original                     
                                                                           text; Makes in order                 
                                                                           only a Conyers                       
                                                                           substitute; provides                 
                                                                           a senate hook-up                     
                                                                           after adoption.                      
H.R. 2425......................  Medicare            H. Res. 238          Restrictive; waives                 1D
                                  Preservation Act.                        all points of order                  
                                                                           against the bill's                   
                                                                           consideration; makes                 
                                                                           in order the text of                 
                                                                           H.R. 2485 as original                
                                                                           text; waives all                     
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against H.R. 2485;                   
                                                                           makes in order only                  
                                                                           an amendment offered                 
                                                                           by the Minority                      
                                                                           Leader or a designee;                
                                                                           waives all points of                 
                                                                           order against the                    
                                                                           amendment; waives cl                 
                                                                           5 of rule                 
                                                                           XXI (\3/5\                           
                                                                           requirement on votes                 
                                                                           raising taxes).                      
H.R. 2492......................  Legislative Branch  H. Res. 239          Restrictive; provides              N/A
                                  Appropriations                           for consideration of                 
                                  Bill.                                    the bill in the House.               
H.R. 2491......................  7 Year Balanced     H. Res. 245          Restrictive; makes in               1D
H. Con. Res. 109...............   Budget                                   order H.R. 2517 as                   
                                  Reconciliation                           original text; waives                
                                  Social Security                          all pints of order                   
                                  Earnings Test                            against the bill;                    
                                  Reform.                                  Makes in order only                  
                                                                           H.R. 2530 as an                      
                                                                           amendment only if                    
                                                                           offered by the                       
                                                                           Minority Leader or a                 
                                                                           designee; waives all                 
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendment; waives cl                 
                                                                           5 of rule                 
                                                                           XXI (\3/5\                           
                                                                           requirement on votes                 
                                                                           raising taxes).                      
H.R. 1833......................  Partial Birth       H. Res. 251          Closed................             N/A
                                  Abortion Ban Act                                                              
                                  of 1995.                                                                      
H.R. 2546......................  D.C.                H. Res. 252          Restrictive; waives                N/A
                                  Appropriations FY                        all points of order                  
                                  1996.                                    against the bill's                   
                                                                           consideration; Makes                 
                                                                           in order the Walsh                   
                                                                           amendment as the                     
                                                                           first order of                       
                                                                           business (10 min); if                
                                                                           adopted it is                        
                                                                           considered as base                   
                                                                           text; waives cl 2 and                
                                                                           6 of rule XXI against                
                                                                           the bill; makes in                   
                                                                           order the Bonilla,                   
                                                                           Gunderson and                        
                                                                           Hostettler amendments                
                                                                           (30 min); waives all                 
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendments; debate on                
                                                                           any further                          
                                                                           amendments is limited                
                                                                           to 30 min. each.                     
H.J. Res. 115..................  Further Continuing  H. Res. 257          Closed; Provides for               N/A
                                  Appropriations                           the immediate                        
                                  for FY 1996.                             consideration of the                 
                                                                           CR; one motion to                    
                                                                           recommit which may                   
                                                                           have instructions                    
                                                                           only if offered by                   
                                                                           the Minority Leader                  
                                                                           or a designee.                       
H.R. 2586......................  Temporary Increase  H. Res. 258          Restrictive; Provides               5R
                                  in the Statutory                         for the immediate                    
                                  Debt Limit.                              consideration of the                 
                                                                           CR; one motion to                    
                                                                           recommit which may                   
                                                                           have instructions                    
                                                                           only if offered by                   
                                                                           the Minority Leader                  
                                                                           or a designee; self-                 
                                                                           executes 4 amendments                
                                                                           in the rule; Solomon,                
                                                                           Medicare Coverage of                 
                                                                           Certain Anti-Cancer                  
                                                                           Drug Treatments,                     
                                                                           Habeas Corpus Reform,                
                                                                           Chrysler (MI); makes                 
                                                                           in order the Walker                  
                                                                           amend (40 min) on                    
                                                                           regulatory reform.                   
H.R. 2539......................  ICC Termination...  H. Res. 259          Open; waives section    ..............
                                                                           302(f) and section                   
                                                                           308(a).                              
H.J. Res. 115..................  Further Continuing  H. Res. 261          Closed; provides for               N/A
                                  Appropriations                           the immediate                        
                                  for FY 1996.                             consideration of a                   
                                                                           motion by the                        
                                                                           Majority Leader or                   
                                                                           his designees to                     
                                                                           dispose of the Senate                
                                                                           amendments (1hr).                    
H.R. 2586......................  Temporary Increase  H. Res. 262          Closed; provides for               N/A
                                  in the Statutory                         the immediate                        
                                  Limit on the                             consideration of a                   
                                  Public Debt.                             motion by the                        
                                                                           Majority Leader or                   
                                                                           his designees to                     
                                                                           dispose of the Senate                
                                                                           amendments (1hr).                    
H. Res. 250....................  House Gift Rule     H. Res. 268          Closed; provides for                2R
                                  Reform.                                  consideration of the                 
                                                                           bill in the House; 30                
                                                                           min. of debate; makes                
                                                                           in order the Burton                  
                                                                           amendment and the                    
                                                                           Gingrich en bloc                     
                                                                           amendment (30 min.                   
                                                                           each); waives all                    
                                                                           points of order                      
                                                                           against the                          
                                                                           amendments; Gingrich                 
                                                                           is only in order if                  
                                                                           Burton fails or is                   
                                                                           not offered.                         
H.R. 2564......................  Lobbying            H. Res. 269          Open; waives cl.                   N/A
                                  Disclosure Act of                        2(l)(6) of rule XI                   
                                  1995.                                    against the bill's                   
                                                                           consideration; waives                
                                                                           all points of order                  
                                                                           against the Istook                   
                                                                           and McIntosh                         
                                                                           amendments.                          

[[Page H13211]]
                                                                                                                
H.R. 2606......................  Prohibition on      H. Res. 273          Restrictive; waives                N/A
                                  Funds for Bosnia                         all points of order                  
                                  Deployment.                              against the bill's                   
                                                                           consideration;                       
                                                                           provides one motion                  
                                                                           to amend if offered                  
                                                                           by the Minority                      
                                                                           Leader or designee (1                
                                                                           hr non-amendable);                   
                                                                           motion to recommit                   
                                                                           which may have                       
                                                                           instructions only if                 
                                                                           offered by Minority                  
                                                                           Leader or his                        
                                                                           designee; if Minority                
                                                                           Leader motion is not                 
                                                                           offered debate time                  
                                                                           will be extended by 1                
                                                                           hr.                                  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Contract Bills, 67% restrictive; 33% open. **All legislation, 56% restrictive; 44% open. ***Restrictive rules  
  are those which limit the number of amendments which can be offered, and include so called modified open and  
  modified closed rules as well as completely closed rules and rules providing for consideration in the House as
  opposed to the Committee of the Whole. This definition of restrictive rule is taken from the Republican chart 
  of resolutions reported from the Rules Committee in the 103rd Congress. ****Not included in this chart are    
  three bills which should have been placed on the Suspension Calendar. H.R. 101, H.R. 400, H.R. 440.           



                              {time}  1545

  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from 
Florida [Mr. Goss], an outstanding Member, who has not only served with 
the Central Intelligence Agency in a former career, but has also been 
an important Member in intelligence matters in this House.
  (Mr. GOSS asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. GOSS. Mr. Speaker, I thank the distinguished chairman of the 
Committee on Rules from Glens Falls, NY, Mr. Solomon, for yielding me 
this time, and for his very strong leadership on this issue.
  Mr. Speaker, today we have seen history made when Congress voted to 
balance the budget for the first time since the first year of the Nixon 
Presidency. However, as extraordinary as that is, H.R. 2606 is perhaps 
more immediately important. I say that because this legislation 
directly concerns the lives of 25,000 Americans, their families, and 
friends.
  More than any other issue that has come before this Congress, the 
question of whether or not we send troops to Bosnia has evoked a 
spontaneous and heartfelt response across America and from my district 
in southwest Florida. The message is clear, and the message is, ``Do 
not send our young men and women to Bosnia,'' and I agree strongly.
  This Member has not forgotten that just over 1 year ago the 
administration brought us to the brink of war in Haiti, a tiny, 
friendly Caribbean neighbor, before cooler heads outside the 
administration prevailed. And while I now applaud the efforts to reach 
a diplomatic solution to the war in Bosnia, I wish the President had 
learned from his earlier disaster in Somalia and near disaster in 
Haiti, you cannot put troops in harm's way in a foreign country without 
a clear, achievable objective and a clearly defined exit strategy. It 
is a recipe for disaster. We certainly cannot put those lives on the 
line without an American chain of command in a European country whose 
intense internal feuds date back to before our country was even 
founded.
  The former Secretary General of NATO, Willie Class, has not been 
replaced since his indictment, in part because of some clumsy diplomacy 
on our part, I believe.
  Last night in the Committee on Rules we heard testimony further on 
what some would call the Michael New issue or the chain of command 
issue, concerning the uniform to be worn by American soldiers serving 
in missions overseas. I agree that this is part of our no-foreign-
chain-of-command issue that needs to be debated and needs attention, 
but I do not think today is the day for it.
  Mr. Speaker, we have a good rule before us, it is fair. We have a 
mightily important subject before us, and I urge support for the rule 
and support for the very important bill behind it.

  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from 
Colorado [Mr. Skaggs].
  Mr. SKAGGS. Mr. Speaker, I have serious doubts, and many of us have 
serious doubts, about sending troops to Bosnia. But I do not want to do 
anything to get in the way of peace. And this bill would certainly do 
just that.
  After years of conflict and atrocities, it is hard to see how the 
parties to the Bosnian war find the ground for an enforceable peace. 
Any agreement coming out of the Dayton talks will require careful 
scrutiny and debate before we make the decision about sending troops.
  But this is not the day for that debate or decision. We will have 
that day, if and when there is an agreement. The President has made it 
clear there will be a vote.
  The President deserves a chance now to move ahead on the road toward 
peace. This proposal is nothing but a transparent effort to embarrass 
the President in that effort and to make political points, while 
putting the peace talks at grave risk.
  Defeat the rule, defeat the bill.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the distinguished 
gentleman from San Diego, CA [Mr. Cunningham].
  Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Speaker, there are almost as many African-
Americans murdered on the streets of the United States as are being 
killed in Bosnia today. That does not make it less of a problem. But I 
would ask and the real question is, Would it be more harmful for this 
body to vote today or tomorrow?
  I contend that it would be much worse. Do I want this President to be 
President? Absolutely not. But I think it would be more harmful for 
this country and for the President if we waited. If we vote today, I 
would tell my friend that it would send a message to Ohio that the 
agreement should not include Americans troops. It does not mean that 
they cannot still have an agreement. But if we wait until after, or if 
an agreement is signed, then can you imagine how it would embarrass the 
President and the leadership prestige of this country?
  I think it would be devastating, and I do not think most Members of 
this House would be willing to do that. We would have to do that. Why? 
It would cost, and it has been given in testimony, over $3 billion for 
1 year. We just talked on this floor about a balanced budget, Mr. 
Speaker. We would, and General McKenzie and General Boyd, who are in 
charge of forces over there, said we will lose troops.
  I take a look at what our history has been. Look at Somalia, look at 
Haiti. Those are small areas. This area since 600 years ago in the time 
of Yugo, and then look at World War II, when the Chetniks were 
controlled by Maholovich and the partisan with Tito and the Ustasa with 
Nazi Germany.
  This is a question about nationalism, and if you take a look, since 
the beginning of this time, Belgrade had all the cards. That has 
changed a little bit, in the fact that most of the fundamentalist 
Moslem groups like Iran and Pakistan, and so forth, have been funneling 
arms into that portion of the world. That allowed them to execute the 
latest offensive. Belgrade knows it is going to get a bloody nose if it 
engages. It would bring them closer to the peace table.
  I ask for the vote today, Mr. Speaker. I think it is very important 
for this country and the lives of our men and women.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman 
from Michigan [Mr. Levin].
  (Mr. LEVIN asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. LEVIN. Mr. Speaker, I am going to vote against the Hefley 
proposition. It is not a vote to send troops, it is a vote to let the 
parties in Dayton develop a peace agreement, if they can, and then we 
will take a look.
  I voted to lift the arms embargo. I voted twice, as I remember, maybe 
it was three times. I felt, like those who voted to lift the arms 
embargo, deeply about what was happening there, not to send American 
troops, but to take steps that we could to try to help end the conflict 
there.
  I do not understand really how people could vote for lifting the 
embargo and now vote for Hefley. If we had succeeded at that point and 
arms had been sent there, no one thought that it was likely that the 
Moslems would overcome and win on an unconditional basis.

[[Page H13212]]

  We thought there would be a negotiation eventually if the Moslems 
could defend themselves, and if we had succeeded and there had been a 
negotiation, then they probably would have said to NATO, we need 
somebody to enforce it, and they would have said, ``Look, you sent us 
arms. Now help us enforce it.'' We would not have been a neutral party 
then under those circumstances. We are not one now.

                              {time}  1600

  So, look, my colleagues, let us give negotiations a chance and then 
take a look. Do not pull the rug out from under those negotiations.
  We have been on this floor talking about the tragedy, the tragedy of 
Bosnia, and that it is. Do not make that tragedy worse.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman 
from West Virginia [Mr. Wise].
  Mr. WISE. Mr. Speaker, I do not think I take a back seat to anybody 
in this Chamber for speaking out against the introduction of United 
States troops in Bosnia. I voted to lift the arms embargo. I voted for 
the resolution 2 weeks ago putting the President on notice that this 
Congress would not automatically presume to sent troops whatever the 
outcome of peace talks. I have written letters to the White House, and 
two times in the last 2 days I have talked directly to White House and 
State Department officials raising my objections.
  But, Mr. Speaker, I oppose this resolution. I oppose it because today 
there are delicate negotiations in Dayton, OH, that may bring peace. To 
go further in this unprecedented matter pulls the rug out from under 
those negotiations. I am not aware of previous attempts in the history 
of this body to so bind a President's hands.
  Furthermore, the President of the United States has pledged in 
writing to every Member of Congress and the Speaker of the House that 
before he will commit troops to Bosnia he will come to this House to 
seek approval. This Congress will have a chance to have its final say.
  I did not vote in any way to undercut President Reagan in delicate 
negotiations such as this; I did not vote in any way to undercut 
President Bush in delicate negotiations such as this; and I will not 
vote to undercut President Clinton in delicate negotiations such as 
this.
  Two weeks ago this House sent a powerful message to the President of 
the United States and to the warring parties negotiating saying do not 
presume there will be troops. We cannot get much louder than that. It 
was an overwhelming majority. The President of the United States has 
pledged that he will come to this House to seek approval before he 
commits troops.
  Mr. Speaker, I would just urge the warring parties are doing the 
talking right now. That is who should be doing the talking today and 
not the Congress of the United States. We have enough to be talking 
about in the well of this House.
  Mr. ROTH. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. WISE. I yield to the gentleman from Wisconsin.
  Mr. ROTH. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman is making a good statement but 
it is completely off the mark. The President did not say he will come 
to Congress and ask for a vote.
  Mr. WISE. Mr. Speaker, reclaiming my time, the President has written 
and said exactly that.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman 
from Tennessee [Mr. Clement].
  Mr. CLEMENT. Mr. Speaker, we have a real opportunity for a peace 
settlement. These peace talks in Dayton, OH, are a major breakthrough 
for all of us.
  I know all of us have had the opportunity to watch TV at night and 
see the atrocities and see the children and the families and the 
civilians being destroyed. So many people in my district and all over 
the United States have said what can we do to help; how can we help? 
What can we do to really make a difference? Well, we can make a 
difference by supporting our President and by supporting the peace 
policy.
  We are not declaring war. We are not going through the process of 
what we did in World War I and World War II. What we are saying is we 
want peace to have an opportunity to work. I do not think that is too 
much for our President to ask. All he is saying to us is that let us 
give these peace talks an opportunity. Do not interfere with the 
process prematurely.
  We have already voted once and we should not have voted then, and now 
we are having to walk the plank once again. I hope all of us, whether 
we be Democrat or Republican, will vote no on the Hefley amendment. It 
serves no useful purpose, it complicates the process, and it surely 
does not bring about peace in the area.
  We want peace. Sure, these people have been fighting for thousands of 
years and maybe they want to fight that much longer, but maybe not. I 
think a lot of the leaders that are meeting in Dayton, OH, have 
realized maybe we have gone too far, maybe we have seen too much, maybe 
this is an opportunity for peace once and for all. So when we vote in 
just a little while, I hope we will all consider all those factors 
before we vote for the Hefley amendment.
  Give the peace process a chance because the President has already 
said we will have another opportunity to participate and vote once and 
for all.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from 
California [Mr. Rohrabacher], a member of the Committee on 
International Relations, someone who has served on the Committee on 
National Security for many years, and who is one of the most 
knowledgeable Members of this House.
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. Mr. Speaker, the Bosnians are not asking for the 
deployment of American troops. They never have asked for the deployment 
of American troops. The Croatians are not asking for the deployment of 
American troops. They have never asked for if deployment of American 
troops. Whose nutty idea is this to send 25,000 Americans into a meat 
grinder down in the Balkans? It is the same global strategists who 
formulated our failed policy that has turned the Balkans problem into a 
holocaust of historic signifiance and a nightmare to the people of 
Bosnia. Their policy was an arms embargo which left the victims totally 
at the mercy of a heavily armed aggressor.
  This body voted, and we have spoken time and again and pleaded to 
lift the arms embargo because it does nothing but hurt the victim. 
Those people that turned down our request, turned a blind ear to our 
cries as well as the cries for help in Bosnia, are now telling us we 
are going to send 25,000 Americans there. That is our only option. 
Baloney. And we should not let it happen. It is a sin against our own 
people and it is not even what the Bosnians and the Croatians want.
  Do not tell me give peace a chance. We are playing a game, a cruel 
game with those people in Dayton if we are letting them move forward on 
their negotiations based on the idea that 25,000 American young people 
are going to be deployed there. We should make it clear right now to 
those people that they should negotiate, they should do whatever they 
can to bring peace, but in an atmosphere of reality.
  What if somebody was telling us that the peace plan depends on 
$250,000 grants to each and every citizen of the Balkans from the 
people of the United States? Would we be pulling the rug out from under 
peace negotaitions by saying we are not going to give those grants? 
Well, we are not going to give those grants and we are not sending 
those young people there. And we are the ones for reality and peace in 
the world.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman 
from Connecticut [Mr. Gejdenson].
  Mr. GEJDENSON. Mr. Speaker, those in this chamber who claim that 
there can be no peace in the Balkans have clearly been in isolation 
over the last year and a half. At the White House Yasser Arafat and 
Yitzhak Rabin shook hands over a chasm that lasted for 5,000 years, 
speaking of peace and having the courage to take a step forward.
  It takes some courage here today as well, because, yes, there is a 
risk out there, Mr. Speaker. Casualties are very tough, tough on the 
families, tough on the politics of America. None of us want to take 
that risk. On our side we have always been resistant to the use of 
force. But to take this action today is an outrage. It is not about the 
politics of the Presidency, it is not about 

[[Page H13213]]
whether this President succeeds or not, it is about what happens in the 
Balkans.
  Now, for a moment there is not a lot of fighting going on there. Some 
of the graves of children are now being uncovered. Let me tell my 
colleagues what happened to my family as the world debated about 
whether this was a regional problem or an international problem. This 
is the story of my father's village in World War II. This paragraph was 
written by a Nazi, not by some pacifist sympathizer or those who were 
victims.

       Early the next morning we suddenly heard the ghetto was 
     surrounded by the SS. The Jews were herded together, forced 
     out of the ghetto into an open area. There they had to take 
     off their shoes, their coats and their jackets. They began to 
     weep loudly. A boy of 14 tried to run away but was shot 
     immediately. In response, a Jewish man became extremely angry 
     and rebuked the SS. However, he was brutally beaten on the 
     spot so that he had to be transported in a vehicle. The men 
     of the village were forced to dig a large hole. Everyone, 
     children and women, young and old, had to lie face down. 
     Among these miserable creatures there was a woman who had 
     only the day before given birth to a child. That woman was 
     the first who had to stand up and go to her grave and the 
     grave of all. I saw how this woman tottered and reeled, 
     clutching her almost naked infant and crying bitterly, asking 
     for her life. She was pushed brutally into a hole and then 
     shot.

  For one moment, the killing has stopped. To give the President and 
the peace process the patience of several weeks is not too much to ask. 
To end this brutality that has killed children and women is not too 
much to ask. Give this peace process some time. The solution is not to 
rearm people and start the fighting on an even keel so more children 
and more women will die.
  This is a simple request. The President has assured the Speaker he 
will give him a vote before he asks Americans to risk their lives. Have 
the courage to give him some time, I would say to the gentleman from 
New York [Mr. Solomon], have the courage to give this President time to 
achieve peace.
  Mr. Speaker, I include the document I quoted from for the Record.

               Chapter 9--Small Hills Covered With Trees

       Rudolf answers my ad in the local newspaper: ``Children 
     whose parents witnessed or took part in the persecution or 
     extermination of Jews and/or Gypsies and who are willing to 
     participate in a research project by an Israeli psychologist 
     at the local university, please . . .'' He calls and says he 
     will speak only to the Israeli interviewer. We set up a time 
     for the interview, and I agree to meet him at the bus 
     station.
       Compared to the interviewees I seek out, about whose 
     parents, and their role during the war, I have detailed 
     information, the ad respondents are a mystery to me until 
     they tell their stories. I usually reach the meeting place a 
     few minutes ahead of time in order to see the person 
     arriving--how he approaches the station, what he looks like, 
     if he seems troubled or at ease, if his expression changes 
     when he recognizes me. But Rudolf is already waiting, 
     glancing impatiently at his watch (although I am not late). 
     He is tall and looks like a manager in some local firm. A 
     strong handshake. I can sense his excitement. He starts 
     talking immediately, but I steer him into small talk because 
     I want to reach my office, where the tape recorder is set up. 
     When we finally reach my room and I invite him to sit down, 
     he pulls a yellowed sheaf of papers from his briefcase.
       R: I was born April 4, 1930, in Wuppertal, the son of an 
     unemployed textile worker. My father was out of work at the 
     time. Before he lost his job, he was employed as a master 
     craftsman in a textile plant. But there was a great deal of 
     unemployment in the area, and he was laid off too.
       B: Are you the only son?
       R: I was the only son until 1940, when my brother was born. 
     He's still alive. He was born on January 14, 1941, in 
     Wuppertal. I spent those very early years more or less 
     pleasantly until my dad found work again. He found a job 
     later, I'm not sure exactly when. We were living in quite 
     a primitive little house. Although he was out of a job, my 
     father built himself a small house in a garden. He was 
     very enterprising, but the thing about him--right up until 
     he died he was a very pious and believing Christian. And 
     that has accompanied me through my entire life--
     Christianity, being a Christian. At home we would pray--
     have a Bible hour and sing together. There were also 
     others who'd come over to our place in order to read the 
     word of God together.
       I experienced National Socialism right from the start. OK, 
     not from the very beginning, the years before 1930, but after 
     Hitler came to power in 1933 it began to be a reality for me. 
     For me it was something I was born into, I couldn't question 
     it. It was something quite normal. When I'd see the soldiers 
     marching outside, the Hitler Youth marching past, for me that 
     was something: I wanted to march too. My mother would say to 
     me, ``Just wait, see what happens, you don't know . . .'' 
     ``Mama, I'd like to be in the Hitler Youth too!'' ``Just wait 
     and see first.'' Well, I joined the Hitler Youth in 1940. The 
     war had already begun. I advanced through the ranks very 
     quickly, went to a leadership school, and became a squad 
     leader (Jungenscharfuhrer). Later I became a platoon leader 
     with a group of thirty boys under my command. That's one side 
     of it. I experienced all that directly and with a feeling of 
     joy. Now I finally had what I'd been longing for. Now I was a 
     leader, I was able to command, although I was still just a 
     child.
       There is something very theatrical in his way of talking. I 
     wonder if this is his usual manner or if it is due to his 
     excitement in recalling and relating the events of the past.
       B: How old were you then?
       R: I was only eleven when I went to the course where young 
     leaders were trained. I was twelve when I became a squad 
     leader and thirteen or fourteen when I made platoon 
     commander. In any event, something very peculiar happened at 
     that time . . . well, not peculiar, but something that had a 
     powerful formative influence on me. My father had found work 
     again even before that, but he wasn't happy. He tried to find 
     a position that was more challenging. So he went to work with 
     the railroad. It was called the Reichsbahn then. He laid 
     track at first, then he was a station conductor, and later on 
     he worked with the signal box. He always felt attracted to 
     the track gang, the guys who laid track, but he was also 
     preaching sermons as a member of a Protestant congregation of 
     the Free Church, a congregation that was independent but 
     still Protestant. So he was a preacher. The railroad was his 
     job and being a preacher his love. And his family--his 
     children--were his pride and joy, his great love. He did a 
     lot of Sunday school lessons with small children, taught them 
     about the Bible. Actually he lived just for the family, for 
     his congregation.
       Naturally he had to work, and he had this enormous garden. 
     My father was a very believing and religious person, as I 
     said, and he was filled with a great deal of love. I felt 
     protected in his love. Whatever my father said was right. 
     Then the day came when my father was approached by the Nazi 
     Party, by the National Socialist German Workers' Party. He 
     was already a member of the NSV, the National Socialist 
     Welfare Association. He collected money for the Party and 
     distributed ration cards--those cards were quite common at 
     that time. So he was already active in the NSV and was asked 
     to join the Party. I can recall that this had been discussed 
     once at home. I had listened and thought about it. I myself 
     was in the Hitler Youth and my view was ``Dad, you have to 
     join the Party!'' First he resisted. Then he thought that 
     maybe it would be a good idea after all if he joined up: 
     maybe he could advance more quickly, make headway in his 
     profession and--just maybe--be in a position to shield his 
     congregation. At that time, they didn't want such Christian 
     congregations--I think it was a passing phase for National 
     Socialism at the time. After the war they would have done 
     away with the church congregations anyhow. I oscillated back 
     and forth between the Hitler Youth and the congregation. I 
     was undecided and psychologically unfulfilled. I loved the 
     Hitler Youth more and more. Religion became more and more 
     unimportant to me. I felt invigorated and full of life. They 
     knew how to do that. The Hitler Youth leaders were good at 
     animating young people, motivating and preparing them 
     psychologically for tasks they would carry out later on, It 
     went without question in my eyes that what the Fuhrer said 
     and did, that was the truth. He was almost more of a god for 
     me than the real God . . .
       B: Could you give an example of how the leaders did that?
       R: We used to have evening get-togethers when all the boys 
     would sit in a large room. The room had black wallpaper, 
     completely black. The benches were dark red. Up front there 
     was a picture on the wall, not of the Fuhrer but of a famous 
     Germanic king, along with two lamps that shed a dim light on 
     the picture. It was quite dark in the room. Then we were told 
     stories about the ancient Germans, our Germanic forefathers. 
     The Aryan race, which has the sole right to lead. We would 
     sing songs in a minor key. It penetrated very deeply into our 
     souls. We felt this very deeply. We believed everything, and 
     we were very proud to be members of this Germanic race and 
     leaders to boot. Young leaders, tribal leaders within this 
     race, this new Germanic race. Young people who were not 
     setting out to rule the world--they really wanted to rule 
     the world. So for us what was predominant was what engaged 
     our feelings. That wasn't the only thing though, not just 
     such evening gatherings. Marching out on the street, 
     marching like soldiers . . . we youngsters already felt 
     like grown-up soldiers. The music that accompanied us, 
     played by the Hitler Youth, with flags and drums through 
     the streets--everyone had to salute our flags, and we were 
     proud to be full members! The fact that we were children 
     was used to prepare us for what was to come. I say for 
     what was to come, but what was that going to be? We were 
     as yet unable to grasp what ``later on'' might be. We 
     didn't know what was really involved. Who had told us? No 
     one spoke about it.
       [Sighs] But now I have to return to the subject of my 
     father. My father was inducted 

[[Page H13214]]
     as a railroad man and sent to Russia, to Poland. To be more precise, my 
     father was sent to Parafianovo.\1\ That's between Vilna and 
     Smolensk. He worked as--what they called during the war an 
     adjunct work-squad leader. He had a section of track to take 
     care of. It was between Parafianovo and Smolensk, maybe three 
     hundred to five hundred kilometers. I can't give you a 
     definite figure. It was his job to maintain this section of 
     track, which was frequently attacked by partisans. They blew 
     up the tracks so the trains would be derailed. But the most 
     important thing, the thing that had such a formative 
     influence on him--which is why I'm here--and on me, was an 
     experience he told me about after he returned. He came back 
     earlier than expected. There was a Jewish ghetto in 
     Parafianovo. A lot of Jews had been brought together and 
     concentrated there in one area, where they were allowed to 
     live. These Jews also worked for the German railroad. A large 
     number were used to help maintain the tracks. For example, 
     there was--I just can't forget their names--there was Aaron 
     Katz, Maria, and the cook for the men my father worked with. 
     This cook was Jewish. I can't recall her name. I think Dolla 
     was her first name, or people called her that. My father 
     could go into the ghetto and speak with the Jews there.
     \1\Placenames appear in their Russian form; these are small 
     villages in Belorussia, between Vilna and Smolensk.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Since he was a convinced and religious Christian, he also 
     spoke with them about the Talmud and the Scriptures, our Holy 
     Bible. And they saw that they both believed in a common God, 
     except that, for the Jews, Jesus is a kind of strange chapter 
     inserted in between. In any event, they understood that they 
     were equal. And basically, we Germans are also a tribe of 
     Israelites. If you assume that certain tribes developed up 
     north and that the Germanic tribes, the so-called Germanic 
     tribes, are a conglomerate of many peoples, they are also a 
     tribe of Israelites. Not that this is important, it's 
     something secondary. [Very agitated] Well, the day arrived 
     when the ghetto was surrounded by the SS. They asked my 
     father, ``How many do you need?'' And he told them, ``I need 
     all of them.'' ``No, I need a few heads,'' the officer said, 
     ``they're all to be shot.'' So now you have this Christian, 
     with a soft and childlike heart. He stands there and can do 
     nothing! What should he say, ``Shoot me too''? He had 
     children and a wife of his own . . . What was he to do? 
     [almost shouting at me] He didn't have such great courage. He 
     couldn't resist. He was unable to save his Jews--after all, 
     they were his brothers, he had lived with them. First, a 
     woman was shot. She had given birth the day before. She was 
     tossed down into the grave. [Crying] Whether they also shot 
     the baby, he doesn't know, he didn't know that. Then he ran 
     away and cried bitterly. And a young SS soldier ran after him 
     and said, ``I can't go on either! I've killed so many, I just 
     can't go on!''
       In any case, he was criticized after that. I could read you 
     a letter written by my father to make things clearer, a 
     letter he wrote right after the end of the war. He became 
     very ill and was released from service too, following this 
     experience. He wrote the letter only after the war because he 
     was afraid to put anything at all down in writing during the 
     war, during the National Socialist period. Let me show you. 
     It's an old letter, and here is also the confirmation that my 
     father was in the east and had been given an early release.
       His hands shaking, Rudolf hands me the two documents he has 
     brought with him. He is sweating. I can see that the 
     documents are old and have been carefully kept in a nylon 
     bag. I can also see that they are written in an old-fashioned 
     hand and that on one, the words Our Guilt appear at the top. 
     I offer Rudolf a glass of water and suggest that he read the 
     documents to me himself, since I would have difficulty with 
     his father's handwriting. He starts with the one that carries 
     the swastika, a former certificate of the Nazi railroad 
     authority. Then he reads his father's letter, dated May 16, 
     1945.


                               our guilt

       Finally now, after many weeks of a serious illness that 
     almost robbed me of my senses, I find myself able to commit 
     to writing those things that (so soon) made me ill and have 
     so completely shattered my nerves. I intend to narrate events 
     one after the other in the course of writing and to present a 
     reason for having chosen the above title.
       Until 1941 I had been active for many years as the director 
     of a Sunday school for children. Our parish served in 
     external and internal missionary activities in China. It 
     was my favorite task to be involved in service to 
     children. Since I generally had a great many friends 
     (through my work with the children), the Party believed it 
     had found the right man for its National Socialist Welfare 
     Program (NS-Volkswohlfahrt, NSV) activities. At the same 
     time I was working for the National Railways (Reichsbahn) 
     and had a very low income. On the basis of my work as 
     block chairman of the NSV and as an employee of the 
     Reichsbahn, I became a member of the National Socialist 
     German Workers' Party on June 1, 1941.
       I was also promised that I could retain my faith, but 
     shortly after I became a member of the Party, I was forbidden 
     to hold Sunday school classes. That was the first blow. I had 
     to keep silent and put aside my favorite activity.
       I was transferred to the town of Parafianovo in Poland to 
     work as head of an auxiliary work squad on February 9, 1942. 
     Among others, there were also some 247 Jews--men, women, and 
     children--living in the town. The Jews were put to work at 
     all kinds of jobs but generally lived in a closed ghetto. We 
     Germans (four men) were assigned a Jewish cook by the name of 
     Dolla, a sweet young girl with red hair, who was very, very 
     clean. My fellow soldiers did not treat her with much 
     respect, since she was, after all, Jewish. But she soon 
     noticed that there was someone there who treated her with 
     love, and we became friends, though no one was supposed to 
     notice. I became sick one week, a bad cold, and Dolla called 
     the Jewish pharmacist Belzik, who procured excellent 
     medicines for me. My fellow soldiers began to taunt me about 
     this friendship with a Jew, and even started to criticize and 
     complain. When I regained my health, I visited the ghetto for 
     the first time. Visiting the ghetto was forbidden and a 
     punishable offense. Due to my illness, I was allowed to go to 
     the pharmacy that was located in the ghetto.
       So I visited the pharmacist in the ghetto for the first 
     time, and I was pleased to meet several wonderful human 
     beings: the Jewish women Maria (Mr. Belzik's daughter), Rita 
     (a teacher), and Lilli (a piano teacher), as well as the 
     Aaron K. family. These people proceeded to tell me all their 
     cares and worries. I was confronted with one tale of woe 
     after another. These Jews, whether young or old, were each 
     given a ration of three hundred grams of bread week after 
     week, this and nothing else, month after month. The great 
     misery among these poor people now became evident to me. I 
     then tried in every possible way to help them, and since I 
     knew that they were God's own people, I began to beseech him 
     and to help where I could.
       I was very happy when we were joined by a new fellow 
     soldier who shared my view, Mr. S. from Munich, who 
     faithfully pitched in, helping these poor people wherever 
     help was needed. We had to go about it very cautiously and 
     could only pay visits to people late in the evening, though 
     each time, the Jews were overjoyed when we came. I noticed, 
     however, that their troubles were growing from day to day, 
     because everywhere there was talk about Jews being shot. 
     Their questions became ever more pressing and urgent: What 
     will become of us? I tried then to explain to them that the 
     living Lord would not abandon them, and at home, in my room, 
     I myself engaged in a fervent struggle with God and asked him 
     for help. Yes, in my distress I said, ``Lord, I will serve 
     you faithfully forever, but please let these people live.'' 
     As a result of this terrible distress and misery, our 
     relationship became very, very close. It went so far that we 
     even knelt down together to ask our Father for strength in 
     all these matters. One evening, when I was visiting them 
     again and we were all sitting together, I quietly sang the 
     song ``Gutten Abend, gut, Nacht'' [Brahms's Lullaby], 
     accompanied on the guitar. When we came to the words 
     ``Tomorrow, God willing, you'll be awakened once again . . 
     .,'' Rita broke out in sobs and said, ``I feel so strange.'' 
     The rest of what she said was lost in sobbing. That was the 
     last night of her young life.
       Rudolf is crying and searches desperately for his 
     handkerchief while continuing to read.
       Early the next morning, we suddenly heard that the ghetto 
     was surrounded by the SS. The Jews were herded together and 
     forced out of the ghetto into an open area. There they had to 
     take off their shoes, coats, and jackets, and they began to 
     weep loudly. A boy of about fourteen tried to run away but 
     was shot immediately. In response, a Jewish man became 
     extremely angry and began to rebuke the SS; however, he was 
     brutally beaten on the spot, so that he had to be transported 
     in a vehicle. The men of the village were forced to dig a 
     large hole, and everyone--children and women, young and old--
     had to lie down face to the ground. Among these miserable 
     creatures there was a woman who only the day before had given 
     birth to a child. That woman was the first who had to stand 
     up and go to her grave (and the grave of all). I saw how this 
     woman tottered and reeled, clutching her almost naked infant 
     and crying bitterly, asking for her life. She was pushed 
     brutally into the hole and then shot.
       Rudolf is unable to go on reading and sobs heavily. I am 
     stunned, distressed, and wait until he regains enough control 
     over his tears to continue.
       I went as fast as I could to my room, heard shots again and 
     again, and collapsed at the foot of my bed. Now I lost 
     everything. I had followed the Lord faithfully for twenty-
     eight years, and now this horrible thing occurred. I had 
     believed right to the last hour that the Lord would preserve 
     these people as a result of my prayer, but then I cursed God 
     and all men.
       Rudolf stops again, bursting into tears.
       I wanted total oblivion (ich wollte von nichts mehr 
     wissen). Apparently abandoned by God and all of humankind, I 
     carried out my duties in total apathy and hardly knew in 
     subsequent days what was happening.
       My fellow soldiers--except for S.--called me a coward and a 
     ``lover of Jews.'' Jews were being shot everywhere, in 
     Glubokoe, Dokshitsy, Vileika, Budslav, and Krulevshchyzna. I 
     had one small consolation when I came to Dokshitsy ten or 
     twelve days later and met the captain. His first question 
     was, ``Where is Maria?'' (Maria was the pharmacist's daughter 
     in Parafianovo, liked everywhere as a result of her 
     universally respected love for human beings.) I said, 

[[Page H13215]]
     ``Maria is dead.'' The captain began to cry. He grabbed my hand and 
     said, ``It's a rotten shame!'' (Schweinerei). I didn't see 
     him again after that, but I knew that his heart was also 
     bleeding with grief. Eighteen hundred Jews had been shot in 
     this village. There was great commotion and shouting. I ran 
     over to see what was happening, and to my horror I saw Jews 
     emerging from subterranean caves, some eighty to a hundred 
     people, a terrible picture of misery and suffering. They were 
     crying for water, emaciated, their faces white as chalk. 
     Hardly able to utter a sentence, they dropped to their knees 
     and begged for their lives. Without receiving anything, they 
     were pushed and herded into a barn. I watched as a girl about 
     the age of ten, who had hidden herself in a hay shed and was 
     now almost completely emaciated, was carried past me. This 
     poor girl looked more like a pile of bones than a human 
     being, and this bundle of misery and agony, it too was 
     carried into the barn. As long as I live, come what may, I 
     will never forget this horrible sight. I can't help myself. 
     It was just too horrible and made me sick for the rest of my 
     life. I just can't comprehend how human beings can be such 
     beasts. These images haunted me day and night.
       After a few weeks I was sent to a field hospital in Vileika 
     because of hypertension. But then I collapsed completely, 
     since I was not allowed to tell anyone of my suffering. And 
     this suffering became even more intense when I realized that 
     I was a member of such a band of murderers and criminals, a 
     band that would not have spared my life if I had objected. So 
     I got sicker and sicker and was sent to Vilna. There, for the 
     first time, I had fainting spells and mental disturbances. 
     They didn't know the cause, and they asked me all kinds of 
     questions, but I didn't tell them a thing, since I couldn't 
     trust anyone, including the doctors. After that I was 
     released and sent home to Germany accompanied by a soldier. 
     Back home my condition got worse, to the point that I could 
     hardly walk without someone to accompany me, since I was 
     suffering from the enormous weight of the events I had 
     experienced. After some time, I was reproached by the local 
     section of the Party for not having (as they saw it) a 
     National Socialist outlook on things. My general outlook was 
     more religious in orientation than anything else. When I 
     subsequently wanted to talk about my experiences, I had to be 
     so careful and cautious (pretending as if I thought this and 
     not that) that I became very sick and Dr. D. considered it 
     advisable for me to be placed in an institution. I was afraid 
     they were going to get rid of me there. Shortly after this, I 
     had to enter City Hospital for observation. It was there that 
     I revealed all my suffering to Dr. L. and explained 
     everything to him. Dr. L. did not belong to the Party. He 
     understood me completely and advised me to try to forget 
     things--something that was, and is, impossible.
       On April 14, 1945, I was suddenly approached by a man in 
     the street, who came up to me and said, ``We know who you 
     are. You've been undermining the work of the Party now for 
     some time. You're a dirty saboteur and that's going to cost 
     you your life!'' I did't know what was happening. What had I 
     done? I took a few steps and must have collapsed on the spot. 
     Witnesses say I was going on about ``common murderers, brown 
     bandits, and shootings of Jews.'' People thought I was 
     insane. I remained in this condition for several days. I had, 
     in any case, been sick and unable to work since December 17, 
     1944, but now I was completely finished. Dr. G. and Dr. S. 
     were at my bedside. When I regained my senses a bit, I asked 
     myself, ``What have I done!''
       I had confided in several families and told them about this 
     crime in Russia. Whether they remained silent I don't know. 
     In addition, I had also not given away the presence of a man 
     who had been living away from his unit for a year and a half, 
     about whom I was often questioned. I covered for him whenever 
     I could. I couldn't allow him--someone who quite early on had 
     seen through all the lies--to fall into the hands of that 
     pack, who wanted to build a so-called ``workers' paradise'' 
     on the blood and bones of the dead.
       I can't understand that there are those who wish to kill me 
     because of this, since anyone who has a fairly just view of 
     things must admit that if we had won the war, then there 
     couldn't be a just God in heaven, one who could give his 
     blessing to such bloody deeds.
       On May 3 or 4 when he visited me I told Dr. S. about 
     everything, particularly about Russia. And I can say that he 
     cried bitterly and was ashamed of his * * * [document 
     illegible]. When I asked him, ``Can God * * *'' [document 
     illegible], he replied resolutely and with determination: 
     ``Never!''
       I doubted God in Parafianovo, but ask him today for 
     forgiveness. He was not on the side of those who perpetrated 
     such injustices, and he expiated those bloody deeds.
       R: So that is the end of the letter. That was the 
     experience. And let me tell you that this man suffered right 
     up until the end, until he died, and if you want to know when 
     that was, I can tell you. He's been dead now some eight 
     years. He wasn't able * * * and was given early retirement. 
     He was a bit absentminded. But you must understand: the thing 
     that shaped and molded me, what influenced me, was that I was 
     unable to comprehend what my father was talking about. I had 
     been so fanatic about this idea of National Socialism * * * 
     But when he returned from Poland and told me these things--I 
     was able to understand various things by this time--I was 
     unable to go on believing in it. A cause I was ready to 
     sacrifice my life for--these people had done such a thing? 
     First I accused him of being a deserter! I did not believe 
     his story, I could not believe it. [Agitated] So then I was 
     bothered by doubts. What should I do? I was a leader in the 
     Hitler Youth, but what should I do? I lived in a constant 
     state of inner tension. I didn't know what I should do. 
     Though I must say that in the course of time, that feeling 
     disappeared, it dissipated. My father spoke less and less 
     about it, he withdrew more and more into himself. More and 
     more, the only person he spoke to was my mother. He turned 
     away from me, because I was unwilling to take off that 
     uniform. He turned away from me, and I could see that he was 
     extremely ill, seriously so, because of it. Yet I couldn't 
     follow in his direction. But then there was an experience 
     that actually opened up once again the wound he caused in me 
     by what he'd said.
       B: What was that?
       R: Well, it was in '43 or '44 I think. They showed the 
     movie Jud Suss. It was a film against the Jews, but I didn't 
     recognize it as an inflammatory film. For me it was a simple 
     fact: that's how Jews are. The film portrayed them as the 
     dregs of humanity. So there was this contradiction in my 
     mind. There was ``Jud Suss,'' this carefully polished 
     character in this horror film--that's the expression you 
     could use today--which destroyed young people spiritually and 
     prepared them to * * * something they could never vindicate: 
     to pass judgment on a people I had never experienced directly 
     or seen. [Gets up and walks around restlessly] OK, I had seen 
     some Jews with yellow stars. For me they were just people 
     wearing a yellow star--the Poles had a P and the Ukrainians a 
     U--for me these were second-class people. And I used to hear 
     remarks, during those years you could hear again and again 
     shouts of ``Jew!'' ``Lousy Jew!'' ``Criminals!'' 
     ``Vultures!'' ``Bloodsuckers!'' Or ``The Jews are responsible 
     for the war!'' The Jews were guilty of everything. There was 
     nothing the Jews weren't responsible for. Then this film Jud 
     Suss was made.
       I forgot one thing: Kristallnacht in 1938. I hadn't been a 
     witness to that. I didn't see what happened, I only heard 
     about it. I heard them talking about a shoe store, a Jewish 
     shoe store--I think it was called Rosenthal's--and that it 
     had been smashed and shoes were lying all over the street. 
     They carried out a child wrapped in a lamp shade. Everything 
     was gone, the Jews were gone. But those events occurred on 
     the periphery of things as far as I was concerned. At that 
     time, for me the Jew was someone so small and inconsequential 
     * * * They weren't an independent people, didn't have an 
     independent state. Jews were nothing, just nothing.
       Once my father came to me and said, ``Rudolf, Rudolf, 
     listen.'' He noticed that we were drifting farther and 
     farther apart. I was also aware that we were growing more and 
     more distant. Then he said, ``Rudolf, we have to sit down and 
     have a serious talk.'' That was during the war, but at times 
     he had very clear, sane moments (lichte Momente). ``We've 
     talked so often about the Bible. You've read the Bible 
     yourself, and I've read both the Old and New Testaments. You 
     know that the Jewish people are in fact a people in their own 
     right, God's chosen people. It is so and will remain that 
     way. You can't, we can't deny that. No matter how many 
     Christians curse them, the Jews are the chosen people. The 
     Jew is the hand on the clock of history: whatever happens to 
     him, from that you can read the course of history and time. 
     Just remember one thing: if you lift a finger against the 
     Jews, you can cut off that finger because you are going to 
     lose it! Never attack a Jew. Be careful, cautious, and have 
     respect for the Jews.'' Then he told me a few more things 
     from Jewish history, from the Old Testament. After that I was 
     filled with a sense of fear. He said to me, ``Do you believe 
     in Jesus?'' I said, ``Yes, Dad, I do believe in Jesus 
     Christ.'' ``But you know who he was, don't you?'' and I said, 
     ``Yes, he was a Jew, right?'' ``OK, so do you believe in Jews 
     now?'' and I said, ``Yes, Dad, I do. I'm sorry.'' And then I 
     started to cry. I cried a lot. I was so sorry that I had been 
     so blinded by this idea, that I had been led astray, led 
     astray again and again. But even what my father said to 
     me--said to me in tears, and I noticed that he was sick--
     even what he said to me, I didn't believe, so profound was 
     the influence of the National Socialists, of their 
     propaganda.
       A long pause. Rudolf sits down and wipes his forehead with 
     a handkerchief.
       And then I was apprenticed in 1944, I got an apprenticeship 
     in the railroad, the Reichsbahn. I wanted to be a locomotive 
     engineer and in '44, I was sent as an apprentice to a plant 
     where locomotives were rapaired. This plant had its own fire 
     brigade, since such plants were often attacked and bombed 
     during the war. Now because I was the only one who had been 
     in a leadership position in the youth movement--I was the 
     only Hitler Youth leader among the sixty apprenticed 
     trainees--I was given the job of getting them to assemble in 
     formation in the early morning; I had leadership status once 
     again. I also had to join the fire brigade at the same time 
     and went out with this brigade a few times after heavy air 
     raids.
       I was involved during the last big raid--it was the end of 
     '44 or the beginning of '45, I can't remember. There was a 
     raid and we were called out to see what we could save. The 
     buildings were on fire. And then I saw something. As a young 
     man, I was a runner, 

[[Page H13216]]
     a messenger--we didn't have any radio equipment. I had to supervise the 
     inspection of hoses, make sure the hoses were laid properly 
     and weren't leaking. And I noticed that under a hose lying on 
     top of some debris, there was something dark red, shining 
     there underneath. I said, ``Mr. B.''--he was the chief at the 
     time--``Mr. B., there's something over there!'' He had the 
     debris cleared away and I could see a woman lying there. She 
     had run downstairs and out the front door, and a bomb had 
     exploded right in front of her. Shrapnel and a lot of debris 
     went flying, and this woman was killed. They lifted her out, 
     and then I felt sick; her lower body was ripped open, and 
     everything inside came tumbling out. Now I had seen a great 
     many dead people those months, but this was the worst thing 
     I'd witnessed. I started to feel sick, and Mr. B. said to me, 
     ``OK, go on home.'' Well, that was the end of my activity in 
     the fire brigade. That was shortly before the end of the war. 
     What I did after that was . . . But I was no longer filled 
     with such conviction. Now I understood what my father had 
     told me at the end: you can't justify and accept it.
       During the last half hour, Rudolf has been very agitiated, 
     and I actually start to worry. But he wants to go on, as if a 
     hidden volcano has finally erupted.
       R: Though I must admit that I felt split and divided. After 
     the Americans marched in, people said, ``Now the Hitler Youth 
     is finished.'' I felt a certain sadness, not because of the 
     fact that the Hitler Youth was done for, but because I was no 
     longer able to meet all my friends. That camaraderie was 
     something I missed.
       Those were actually the main experiences. I wanted to tell 
     you that, well, that a family can be destroyed during a war 
     by these things. My father passed away, but before he died, 
     he lived in a kind of twilight, a constant twilight, 
     psychological and mental. He would only work with clay. He 
     used to have this clay brought in and . . . Now I want to 
     mention something that once again concerns those two 
     religions, where you can see the schizophrenia . . . He had a 
     board, and on this board he fashioned and shaped mountains 
     and small hills covered with trees. Down below, at the foot, 
     he made a creche with Jesus lying there inside, and there was 
     a path that led up to a synagogue above. So he wanted to make 
     this connection (in his unconscious) between Christianity and 
     the Jews. He was unable to cope with the notion that a 
     Christian had been able to do such things against a Jew. In 
     his state of mental twilight, he wanted to restore this 
     connection. And he died with that. He didn't die as a 
     Christian or as a Jew: He was something in between.
       In front of me I see the son of an exceptional father, the 
     only person I've heard of who lost his mind because he could 
     not go on living a normal life after he witnessed the 
     massacre of Jews. I hug Rudolf and thank him for talking with 
     me. As we walk out, he says that he has never told anyone 
     about it before, but when he was the ad in the newspaper, he 
     knew the time had come to bring his father's letter out into 
     the open, to tell his father's story--which is now his own.
       We arrange to meet again a few days later. Rudolf arrives 
     with two heavy folders in which he has carefully collected 
     the songs from his days in the Hitler Youth. He looks more 
     relaxed, ready to go on.
       R: I had certain other experiences in the Hitler Youth that 
     were especially memorable and important for me--for example, 
     when I was promoted. Those were moments when my soul was 
     lifted up again. They'd make a campfire in the evening, 
     although it was prohibited on account of the air raids, but 
     they would let us know: OK, no enemy aircraft in sight. 
     Promotions were usually announced on Hitler's birthday, April 
     20, and on November 9.\2\ It was all done in a very military 
     atmosphere, with torches and songs . . . [Singing] ``Holy 
     Fatherland in danger, your sons gather in around you . . .'' 
     And this was sung in a minor key, which makes you feel a bit 
     melancholy, and it would rouse our spirits. Then they would 
     announce the promotion: Comrade so-and-so is now promoted to 
     the rank of squad leader, effective as of such-and-such a 
     date. They would pin on the special ribbon, and you'd go home 
     through the streets swelling with pride. You already felt 
     like a young representative of National Socialism.
     \2\November 9 marked the anniversary of the failed 1923 
     Munich Putsch; it was a sacred day on the National Socialist 
     calendar.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Later on--I have to say, not at that time but later on--I 
     had this thought: What would have happened if my generation 
     had been sent to carry out these murderous acts? OK, people 
     were killed during air raids, but we never killed, we didn't 
     get that far, thank God. But just imagine, what if this 
     generation, which had been psychologically trained and geared 
     up for it, what if this generation had been let loose on 
     mankind? Then what occurred with the Jews, why it would pale 
     in comparison--it would have been nothing. So that's what I 
     have to tell you: we would have been worse. We could have 
     done it without any doubts whatsoever. [Agitated] We were 
     trained to hate from a very early age.
       B: Did you have any friends at school who were Jewish, or 
     were there any Jews in your school?
       R: No, no, none. Wait a second, there was one: she was 
     half-Jewish. I started school in 1936, and there was a girl--
     we didn't know this at first--who was half-Jewish. She told 
     me after the war that they had--I was no longer at that 
     school then--that the other children had stripped her naked 
     in the street, because they heard she was half-Jewish. Even 
     young children had been indoctrinated to the point where they 
     could pull the clothes off a classmate and shout, ``Jew! Jew! 
     Jew!'' She told me this after the war. She still lives here. 
     She's married to an Englishman. She said she wouldn't want to 
     marry a German.
       And there was something here in town, not very long ago, at 
     the zoo. I don't know whether you heard about it. There's a 
     large hall at the zoo where meetings are held, and it was 
     hired out by the police. The police had a celebration there, 
     and a police officer, who was functioning as a kind of master 
     of ceremonies, said, ``What do you answer to `Sieg'?'' And a 
     few young men shouted, ```Heil'!'' That was the salute the 
     Nazis used to use. The policeman really didn't mean any harm 
     by it, I know that. They had all been drinking a little . . . 
     But this Jewish woman was there and she filed a complaint 
     against the policeman. He was temporarily suspended from 
     service, and then there was some sort of punishment. I don't 
     know exactly how it turned out. Anyhow, it was in the paper. 
     She was a classmate of mine. Her brother and father--or her 
     brother and mother, one of them died before that--
     were murdered in the camps. Aside from that, I had no 
     other Jewish classmates. There weren't any left. It is 
     astonishing, but I didn't actually have any direct 
     experience of Jews being sent to concentration camps. I 
     didn't know about it. I only knew that Jews had to wear a 
     yellow star--I knew that later on--a yellow star. They 
     were marked and singled out so that you could recognize 
     them as Jews. Though I must emphasize again and again, it 
     was also true for the Poles, the Ukrainians . . . it 
     wasn't anything . . .
       B: After your father told you his story, did you ever 
     discuss it with friends?
       R: I wasn't able to discuss it with my friends. That would 
     have endangered my father.
       B: What happened between you and your friends after your 
     father came back?
       R: Actually, there was no break, no rupture between me and 
     my friends. I think you have to view it in this way: the 
     overriding, all-embracing concept was the Hitler Youth. 
     National Socialism was a phenomenon that accompanied this 
     organization. Only in a subconscious way was all this 
     hammered into us: National Socialism and Adolf Hitler. 
     Basically, in terms of our behavior, we remained young 
     children, only that, via our subconscious, they attempted to 
     prepare us for the later phase. After all, we were still 
     immature, still under the age of eighteen. You couldn't get 
     rid of our childlike character. That was something that 
     remained.
       Maybe I should tell you about one more experience. I told 
     you that I was a trainee with the Reichsbahn, and that I was 
     a youth leader there. I wasn't all that good as a student, 
     and I wasn't the best among the apprentices, but I was the 
     leader. So we young guys--you can see from this just how 
     young we still were--we got up on a hill during recess and 
     started throwing stones, as boys sometimes like to do, a kind 
     of game. There were two sides, two groups, and we were 
     throwing stones at each other. The winner was supposed to get 
     a bottle of soda water or something. So I heaved a heavy 
     stone and hit a boy right in the stomach. He got really 
     angry, and he shouted, ``You goddamn Nazi pig!'' And that was 
     during the war! I ran over to him and said, ``What did you 
     say?'' ``You goddamn Nazi pig!'' Whammo, I gave him a left 
     and right to the nose, and he dropped to the ground. Then I 
     told him, ``Just you wait. I won't forget this.'' I told this 
     kid, ``You watch out!'' Now what comes is like the seed that 
     has been sown in a child and begins sprouting unconsciously . 
     . . [Stands up and walks around the room waving his arms] I 
     threw a stone at him and hurt him, he felt pain and shouted 
     at me, ``You Nazi pig!'' His father had been in a 
     concentration camp as a Communist, and he always stressed the 
     fact that he wasn't a Nazi. He said this spontaneously, even 
     though the Nazis were in power. And I told him, ``Just you 
     wait, I won't forget this!'' Now that tiny seed began to 
     sprout. It was still very small. But if it had grown, I 
     probably would have turned out to be one of those who could 
     have killed someone for saying such a thing . . .
       [Sits down again, trying to calm himself] I recall that 
     when I was a leader in the Hitler Youth, I . . . in Germany 
     we have people who, as you would say in slang, are ``brown 
     noses,'' people who want to make trouble. Well, I loved to go 
     around dressed in my uniform. I even went to school in 
     uniform, to work--I was very proud. And at that time Russian 
     civilian laborers weren't allowed to drink any alcohol. Then 
     an incident occurred that I have to tell you about. There was 
     this Russian civilian laborer. I was out with a lot of boys, 
     and this drunken Russian laborer came along. I asked him, 
     ``Where are you coming from?'' Me, just a child. And he 
     stammered something in his drunken stupor. I said, ``Do you 
     want to have a fight?'' He said, ``Yeah.'' So I slugged him. 
     He smashed his face into the big window of a grocery store. 
     There was a pointed grille covering it, and his whole face 
     was cut and scratched. No one did anything to me, though. 
     After all, they couldn't hit me. If anyone had done such a 
     thing to me while I was wearing that uniform, he'd have ended 
     up in concentration camp. Terrible, right? Anyhow, my father 
     found out about this incident and he gave me 

[[Page H13217]]
     the worst spanking I ever had. He really walloped me! It was the right 
     punishment. But, as I said before, the small seed had started 
     to germinate, to grow and sprout: ``I won't forget that, 
     you'll see!'' ``You Russian, listen, you're not worth a damn 
     thing! I can do something to you, even though I'm much 
     smaller, and you can't defend yourself, you can't do 
     anything!''
       Rudolf is in a kind of trance. He is staring at the 
     ceiling, trying to bring out the memories that have plagued 
     his conscience all these years. I listen carefully, wishing I 
     had a camera to film this interview. The stories continue to 
     pour forth, however disjointedly, one after another.
       R: Then there was this Frenchman . . . My uncle lived 
     between Brandenburg and Berlin, and he had a fruit farm--he 
     made a living growing strawberries, apples, and tomatoes--and 
     a Russian, a Pole, a Serb, a Frenchman . . . these were the 
     people who had to work for him. Early in the morning there 
     was the ``funeral procession.'' That's what we called it. 
     There was this old German soldier who could hardly stand on 
     his legs, and he led the French POWs off to the various fruit 
     farms. And when they would pass a farm where one of them 
     worked, he'd leave the group and go on in. They walked very 
     slowly, took a lot of time, this German soldier and that 
     French POW. Once I spoke with the Frenchman, whose German 
     was rather good. I was actually quite surprised that I 
     didn't react differently. We were sitting together between 
     the rows of strawberries, and he told me something about 
     his attitude toward the German people and National 
     Socialism. I let him talk and didn't react at all, 
     although I was very bothered by what that Frenchman was 
     saying. He said, ``Pay attention to your own history, the 
     history of Germany. Don't always go on carping about the 
     Jews, the French (because the French had been our 
     archenemies). Just take a long, sober look at your own 
     history, without rose-colored glasses. Take your history 
     as it really is, what really happened, and then form an 
     opinion. How much hatred do you Germans have in 
     yourselves? How far do you expect to go with it? How many 
     more do you plan to exterminate in the name of this 
     hatred?''
       So, as you can see, that idea stayed with me, what he said, 
     though I myself was deeply indoctrinated. OK, if you place 
     all these little piles of impressions one next to the other, 
     you can understand my reaction--the way I experienced it 
     later on, the way I reacted to myelf. I almost felt like 
     Judas in the Bible, that disciple who committed suicide. Yes, 
     well, more than that I . . . I have such a modest heart, 
     wouldn't harm a fly . . . But they had swelled up my heart. 
     They were able to deform a person's heart.
       Then the war ended. If it hadn't ended, I don't know, I'm 
     not sure I would have forgotten all that. I mean, it's 
     especially easy to manipulate children at that age, and where 
     you can get at the children, that's where--at least this is 
     what I think--that's the history of the people. If you can 
     drill the notion into their heads: you are from a tribe, a 
     race that is especially valuable. And then you tell them 
     something about the Germanic tribes, their loyalty, their 
     battles, how Germanic women let themselves be hitched up to 
     carts to fight against the Romans. You, you're a child of 
     this race, a people that dealt the Romans a destructive blow 
     in the year 9 A.D., all that sort of thing. Then there were 
     the songs. I'm especially affected by songs. When they would 
     sing those songs glorifying the deeds of the Germanic tribes, 
     such as [singing] ``The sons of the people ride on silvery 
     stallions, born from a divine multitude, warrior of the 
     Nordic people, they ride in silence to the far fields of the 
     Northern lights, on secret paths they greet elves at the 
     shore of the pounding sea.'' Or ``Holy Fatherland, your sons 
     crowd in around you.'' How does it go on? ``What we swear is 
     written in the stars, he who directs the stars will hear our 
     voice . . . before the foreigner robs you of your crown, O 
     Germany, we would prefer to fall side by side.'' Or ``The 
     flag is dearer than death.'' Death was nothing. The flag, the 
     people--they were everything. You are nothing, your people 
     everything. Yes, that's how children were brought up, that's 
     how you can manipulate a child . . .
       He is singing, talking, and crying, shifting back and forth 
     between one memory and another.
       We meet again a year later. Rudolf is willing to be 
     interviewed on videotape: he will do it for me, for the 
     research; for humanity. When he reads his father's letter 
     during the filming at the studio, he cries again, and this 
     time too, he does not seem able to find his handkerchief.
       We walk out together when the taping session is over, and I 
     thank him for coming. He tells me that his own children did 
     not want him to come. They do not want to have anything to do 
     with this chapter of the family's past. Their motto is ``past 
     is past.'' They want a life of their own. Outside the studio, 
     we shake hands warmly, and Rudolf walks slowly away into the 
     darkness. I suddenly realize how lonely he must be, carrying 
     his father's letter: ``Our Guilt.''

  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself 15 seconds to say, yes, 
there are many tragic stories and our hearts go out to people. If we 
had not put the embargo there in the first place, none of this would 
have happened. Lift the embargo and let those people protect themselves 
and they will do it. That is what they want.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the very distinguished gentleman 
from Colorado [Mr. Hefley], a member of the Committee on National 
Security, who is the sponsor of this legislation.
  Mr. HEFLEY. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from New York [Mr. 
Solomon] and commend the President on getting these combatants together 
to talk about this and to try to strike a deal. That is important and 
that is his role. That is the role that the President of the United 
States should play.
  But the President should not commit U.S. forces without Congress' 
approval, except in unusual circumstances. And what are those unusual 
circumstances? They are circumstances where we need secrecy, for 
instance. Or they are circumstances where there is an emergency. And 
this is neither of those. The President committed these forces 2 years 
ago, in an offhand manner. Committed these forces without knowing what 
kind of peace agreement there would be. Just offered 25,000 troops 2 
years ago.
  We had Ambassador Kirkpatrick before our Committee on National 
Security a few days ago, and let me quote from her statement on page 5. 
She said when asked if we should send 25,000 troops there, she said, 
``Not unless President Clinton makes a persuasive case for this 
deployment.'' She further went on to say, ``Bill Clinton should make 
his case to the people and take his case to the Congress.''
  Now, there will be a lot of people today talking about the fact that 
the President said he will come to the Congress. Just moments ago, on 
the telephone in the Cloakroom, when I asked the President if we 
postpone this vote and he brings his case to the Congress, will he 
abide by the will of the Congress, he said, no, no, I would not give up 
the prerogative that I have.
  I do not know that I blame him for telling me that answer, but I just 
want to put it in perspective that, yes, he will bring the case to the 
Congress, but the further along we go down the road, the more difficult 
it will be, if we decide to say no. We do not know we will say no. 
Maybe he will make a persuasive case, as the Ambassador said. Telling 
the President that we want and need careful consideration before we 
take action that will cost American lives seems intimately reasonable 
to me. We want answers.
  Mr. Speaker, we tried the soft approach. We gave the resolution that 
says do not make troops a part of the agreement. The next day Secretary 
Christopher was saying we do not care what Congress says, we are going 
to do it anyway.
  So this says to the President to include us in this situation before 
the fact and not after the fact, if he really wants the Congress and 
the American people behind him on this. This is an important thing. We 
should be a part of it up front not after the fact.
  Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the gentleman from New York [Mr. 
Solomon] once again, and the Committee on Rules for this rule. This is 
something that I think all of us feel on both sides very passionately 
about, and I appreciate the amount of time that they allotted for this 
very important debate this afternoon.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman 
from New Mexico [Mr. Richardson].
  (Mr. RICHARDSON asked and was given permission to revise and extend 
his remarks.)
  Mr. RICHARDSON. Mr. Speaker, let me read the language of this 
provision. ``It will prohibit the use of funds appropriated to the 
Department of Defense from being used for the deployment on the ground 
of United States forces in Bosnia as part of any peacekeeping 
operation, unless such funds or such deployment are specifically 
appropriated by law.''
  Do my colleagues know what this means? This means no support for the 
peace process. It means no money and it means no troops. But this is 
not a vote about troops. This is a vote that signals the end of 
bipartisanship in our foreign policy.
  Mr. Speaker, this weekend there may be a peace agreement in Dayton, 
yet here we are taking a vote like this that could totally derail that 
effort. It is as if Begin and Sadat were at Camp David, and the weekend 
that they are negotiating a peace agreement, the Congress passes an 
initiative saying, 

[[Page H13218]]
``No matter what you do, we are not going to support you.'' We never 
did that under Presidents Reagan and Bush, yet precisely 1 day before a 
potential peace agreement, we are taking this action.
  If I were Milosevic, Izetbegovic or Tudjman, I would say, ``What 
gives? Is the United States behind us?''
  Mr. Speaker, this is irresponsible. It is a destructive amendment. We 
should vote it down on a bipartisan basis.
  There is a lot to be determined in these peace talks. The status of 
Sarajevo, the composition of the government, access to the sea for 
landlocked Bosnians, the width of the corridor connecting Serb-held 
territories, the removal of the leadership of Milosevic and Karadzic, 
possibly training the Bosnians, refugees, and a massive number of human 
rights issues.
  Mr. Speaker, I am convinced that the reason we are here a few days 
before a peace agreement is that there are some who do not want to see 
the President of the United States succeed in a foreign policy 
initiative.
  Two months ago, this policy was not working. Two months ago, this 
policy was not working, and the President and his negotiators came up 
with a plan, and this plan may work. This President is not going to 
commit any U.S. troop unless there is a peace agreement. Let us give 
him a chance to have a peace agreement. Let us wait and see what this 
peace agreement says.
  The President, in a letter to the Speaker, has stated that he will 
come to the Congress for an expression of support. Why do we have to 
have this vote today? Why can it not be a day after, if there is such 
urgency for a peace agreement?
  Mr. Speaker, the news out of Dayton makes this the absolutely wrong 
time to vote on this bill.
  Reports coming out of Dayton indicate that an agreement could be 
reached as early as this weekend.
  Congress should not undercut the administration at this sensitive 
stage. Within the next few days opportunities exist for progress in 
some of the most difficult areas of negotiation. The warring parties 
have indicated they will not sign a peace agreement unless they believe 
the United States will help implement it. If this bill passes, the 
negotiations could break down and this real opportunity for peace would 
be lost.
  Congress should wait until it is asked to appropriate money before it 
prohibits the appropriation of money. Congress should not interfere in 
the peace talks at this critical juncture. The time to vote on sending 
troops to Bosnia is after a peace agreement has been reached.
  If this bill passes, the peace talks could fail. That would be a 
tragic occurrence since the Dayton peace talks represent the best 
opportunity to achieve peace in nearly 4 years of war.
  Several of you who support this bill have been critical of the 
administration in the past for not taking action on Bosnia. Now that it 
has taken decisive action, we should not tie the hands of the 
administration as it works to find a solution to this nightmare.
  We should give the administration our support to negotiate peace. 
Presidential politics should never jeopardize the future of stability 
in Europe.
  Many say that the United States does not have a vital national 
security interest in Bosnia. I disagree. The United States has seen the 
consequences of turning its back on Europe twice this century with 
tragic consequences for the United States. The future security of the 
United States depends on a NATO that continues to remain strong and 
unified. If the United States does not act with its NATO allies to 
enforce a peace in Bosnia, the NATO alliance itself is placed in 
jeopardy, and consequently the security of the United States.
  Let me stress this most important point: The United States will not 
commit troops to Bosnia unless and until there is a strong commitment 
to peace by all the warring sides. Once a peace agreement is reached, 
President Clinton has said he will come to Congress to request an 
expression of support.
  There has already been significant progress at the peace talks. The 
leaders of Croatia and Serbia have reached an agreement on the 
contentious issue of control of Eastern Slavonia. Further the 
Federation between Bosnian Moslems and Bosnian Croats has been 
implemented. Both of these occurrences are major steps along the way to 
a full peace.
  Passage of this bill seriously undermines the ability of the 
administration to work with the parties involved. It says that the 
United States is not prepared to be a leader in the peace process or in 
NATO. This is the wrong time to be considering this legislation.
  Mr. Speaker, I oppose this bill because it is premature and seriously 
undermines the ability of the President to carry out foreign policy.
  Mr. Speaker, I submit the following for the Record:

               [From the Washington Times, Nov. 17, 1995]

                         Bosnia: A Vote Too Far

       If ever there was a need for Solomonic wisdom, it would 
     have to be in Dayton, Ohio. Negotiations are not going 
     smoothly, nor would one expect them to after the horrors of 
     four years of warfare. It is doubtful that Secretary of State 
     Warren Christopher, who is rushing back from Japan and will 
     likely be monumentally jet-lagged, will be able to resolve 
     the current impasse. And what will surely not make the 
     negotiations any easier are the votes coming up in Congress 
     today on troop deployment.
       What's more, with delicate negotiations on-going, with most 
     of official Washington in the grips of a massive migraine 
     headache and general pique over the federal budget battle, 
     and with relations between Capitol Hill and the White House 
     as poisonous as can be, this is simply the wrong time and the 
     wrong way to make decisions about the most pressing foreign 
     policy issue of the day.
       The Republicans used to know this. From Richard Nixon to 
     Ronald Reagan, they complained bitterly about Democratic 
     interference with the prerogatives of the president as 
     commander in chief. Principled Republicans tried earlier this 
     year (but failed) to repeal the unconstitutional War Powers 
     Act. A more responsible course would have been for the 
     Republican leadership to hold off this vote until there was 
     actually something like a Bosnian peace plan that could be 
     judged on its merits. There is, after all, a great deal more 
     at stake here than one-upmanship.
       Two bills will come up for vote today. The House bill, 
     introduced by Rep. Joel Hefley, could not be more unambiguous 
     and straightforward. It will ``prohibit the use of funds 
     appropriated to the Department of Defense from being used for 
     the deployment on the ground of United States Armed Forces in 
     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as part of any 
     peacekeeping operation, unless funds for such deployment are 
     specifically appropriated by law.'' No support, no money, no 
     troops--that is what this boils down to. Chances are that 
     this bill will pass and be promptly vetoed by the president.
       The other bill will be offered in the Senate by Majority 
     Leader Bob Dole, and will apparently take a less drastic 
     approach. The Dole bill instead will contain a set of 
     conditions to be met before Congress approves funding for 
     troop deployment. At least this bill provides a way for 
     Republicans to influence the process and the decision made in 
     the White House.
       Now, there are very good reasons to be skeptical that 
     anything viable will come out of Dayton, no matter how much 
     pressure is applied by Assistant Secretary of State Richard 
     Holbrooke, a man who may himself be driven by the biggest 
     migraine of them all. The differences over issues are 
     daunting--the status of Sarajevo, the composition of the 
     government, access to the sea for the landlocked Bosnians, 
     the width of the corridor connecting Serb-held territories, 
     the removal from leadership and prosecution of Serbian war 
     criminals Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic, etc., etc. It is 
     by no means a foregone conclusion that the end result is 
     something that the American Congress will want to support. 
     Nor should President Clinton expect Congress to follow 
     blindly in any direction he chooses to march.
       Nonetheless, to vote preemptively, before there is even 
     something to vote on, is inappropriate. The fact is that the 
     United States, which is bigger than this administration, has 
     committed its prestige to an effort to halt the Balkan 
     tragedy. Abandoning that commitment in this way will have 
     repercussions among our allies, our foes and our trading 
     partners. The Republicans should ask themselves, is that 
     really what they want?

  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself 15 seconds to say it once. 
No one on this side of the aisle is accusing the President of partisan 
politics, but we have heard now two speakers from the other side of the 
aisle make that claim. That does not improve this debate.
  Let us keep it the way we had it during the Persian Gulf, and I would 
admonish the gentleman from New Mexico who happens to be a friend of 
mine, to let us keep it on the issue.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from New Mexico [Mr. 
Schiff].
  Mr. SCHIFF. Mr. Speaker, in 1993, as a Reserve Air Force officer, I 
served at Aviano Air Base for a number of days on a reserve assignment. 
It is in northern Italy next to Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is where our 
military action started from against the Serbs recently.
  I want to say, I rise in support of the rule and the bill. I am not 
an isolationist. European events can affect Americans; in fact, they 
already have. But, although I support logistical support for allies, 
there is no justification at all for thousands of U.S. ground troops to 
be placed on the ground in Bosnia.
  There is no reason why the Europeans cannot provide themselves all of 


[[Page H13219]]
the ground troops we need, and I believe it is a mistake to let the 
negotiations proceed without putting the negotiators on notice about 
our feelings in regard in this effect. Saying that we are a superpower 
should not make us a superpatsy to do the Europeans' job for them.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman 
from Rhode Island [Mr. Reed].
  Mr. REED. Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to the Hefley amendment. 
The most charitable thing I can say about this amendment is that it is 
ill-timed.
  Mr. Speaker, today we are hosting the peace negotiators from the 
various factions in the United States. Because of diplomatic 
activities, and these peace negotiations, we have seen the level of 
violence in the former Yugoslavia decrease immensely. Now is not the 
time to derail that process or to take up these issues.
  Now, there are significant issues to be debated prior to the 
commitment of American forces in the former Yugoslavia. I have visited 
Yugoslavia, Sarajevo, the Krajina, Macedonia. There are difficult 
issues we must address. The first issue is whether any agreement that 
is reached in Dayton is worthy of enforcement. We will not know that 
until the details have been hammered out and announced.
  The second issue is whether or not our participation with NATO 
requires the commitment of American ground forces. Is there some other 
significant contribution we can make that will aid NATO without 
committing ground forces?
  These are all legitimate questions. These are questions that should 
be debated, but now is not the time nor is this resolution the 
appropriate vehicle to do that.

  Mr. Speaker, we have to, I think, give the negotiators a chance to 
reach an agreement and then consider our participation.
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. REED. I yield to the gentleman from California.
  Mr. ROHRABACHER. Mr. Speaker, I ask the gentleman, is it better for 
these negotiators that we are trying to protect, and I will assume that 
the gentleman is absolutely sincere when he says he wants these 
negotiations to succeed, is it better to have them negotiating on 
grounds that have nothing to do with reality?
  Mr. Speaker, if the American people are not willing to send 25,000 
troops, does it not hurt the peace process for them to go on and on 
talking about an agreement predicated on that?
  Mr. REED. Mr. Speaker, reclaiming my time, I think the most critical 
aspect of this vote today is that it would derail that process, because 
the interpretation of the negotiators would be not that there will be 
fair consideration of our involvement, but that this Congress 
peremptorily shut down the negotiations. I think that would be wrong.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1\1/2\ minutes to the 
gentleman from Maryland [Mr. Hoyer].
  (Mr. HOYER asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. HOYER. Mr. Speaker, I agree with the Chairman of the Committee on 
Rules. This is not a partisan debate. In fact, the Washington Times 
today, which is not known as a partisan advocate of the President's 
position, said in an editorial today, ``A vote too far.'' They said 
about this bill that is before us, ``This is simply the wrong time and 
the wrong way to make decisions about the most pressing foreign policy 
issue of the day.'' They then went on to say, ``The Republicans used to 
know this.''
  Mr. Speaker, this is a nonpartisan debate. Jeane Kirkpatrick 
testified before the Committee on National Security, and at page 36 of 
the Reuters transcript, so that all of my colleagues will not think I 
selectively quote, in answer to a question by the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania [Mr. McHale], Jeane Kirkpatrick, in the Reagan 
administration our ambassador to the United Nations, an advocate, with 
me, of lifting the arms embargo said this: ``I guess I think that the 
President's initiative, or his response in this letter,'' referring to 
the November 13 letter to the Speaker, ``makes it unwise for the 
Congress to pass a binding resolution in advance of the completion of 
an agreement.''
  In a bipartisan way, I ask my colleagues to reject this rule, so that 
we do not debate the substance of this, but say that this rule ought to 
be rejected because the timing is not now, as the Washington Times so 
aptly stated.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 30 seconds to the gentleman from 
Indiana [Mr. Buyer].
  Mr. BUYER. Mr. Speaker, I say in response to the gentleman from 
Maryland [Mr. Hoyer], I was there to listen to Jeane Kirkpatrick in her 
testimony, and the gentleman is accurate when he quotes her as saying 
that it was not wise for us to move prior to a product.
  She was also then went on in the testimony, and I do not know how 
much of it the gentleman has there, but she went on to say, ``I cannot 
believe I am saying that.'' She said she could not believe she was 
saying that, because she knows what the end product is going to be, 
that this body voted overwhelmingly, 315 to 103, to say, do not use 
troops as the precondition. We know what the product is going to be.
  Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to share that with the gentleman.
  Mr. HOYER. Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman would yield, but the quote 
was accurate. Am I correct?
  Mr. BUYER. Mr. Speaker, the quote was accurate; I just wanted to give 
``the rest of the story.''
  Mr. HOYER. Thank you, ``Paul.''
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, how did Paul Harvey get into this?
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentlewoman from New York [Ms. 
Molinari], one of the very, very distinguished Members of this body. We 
all greatly admire and respect her, because the gentlewoman is one of 
the most level-headed people that I know in this body.
  Ms. MOLINARI. Mr. Speaker, I rise today in support of the rule and in 
support of the amendment. Up until this week, I was going to oppose it. 
I have always questioned ground troops used as peacekeepers in this 
region, but I, too, did not want to be accused of jeopardizing peace 
talks. These peace talks are moving in a dangerous direction and they 
are revealing just how tenuous this pending agreement may be.
  Mr. Speaker, let me begin at the beginning. I have been to the region 
twice, and I do not believe this is a civil war. I believe it is, and 
has been, a war of terror and of land-grabbing and undocumented 
atrocities. I have historically advocated air strikes against the 
Serbian guerrillas and believe that we still have the need to end the 
arms embargo against the Bosnians and the Croatians. I believe we have 
a moral obligation to stop the Nazi-like reign of terror that has 
occurred to innocent victims.
  But, Mr. Speaker, the question is: Does sending peackeepers do this? 
Right now, today, the answer appears to be no. The peacekeepers cannot 
erase the pain of torture and of concentration camps and killings and 
rapes. Peacekeepers cannot keep the peace currently being discussed at 
Dayton.
  President Milosevic of Serbia has asked as a precondition of peace 
that General Mladic and Radovan Karadzic be allowed to leave office 
through the electoral process. Mladic and Karadzic have been indicted 
as war criminals, criminals who authorized mass executions and mass 
rapes, buried people alive, and killed children before their mothers, 
and forced a grandfather, reported by The New York Times, to eat the 
liver of his own grandson.
  Milosevic, a party at the peace table, refuses to turn these men in. 
Peace in the region is important, but peace without justice is 
impossible. Maybe I am wrong; maybe justice will be served at Dayton, 
but I must be convinced first. I must be educated first. I must be so 
sure that I can look a parent in the eye and promise them that their 
children are fighting for a noble cause and not justifying a three-year 
reign of terror, not protecting boundaries drawn with the blood of 
innocent children.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman 
from Florida [Mr. Peterson].
  Mr. PETERSON of Florida. Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to the 
Hefley amendment. The question is: Why now? Why now?
  Mr. Speaker, I am not convinced that we need to send troops to 
Bosnia. I do not think the case has been made for that yet. But I think 
we are going down an interstate right now and we are getting off at the 
wrong exit.

[[Page H13220]]

  Mr. Speaker, we do not have all of the signs yet. We do not know what 
this peace process is going to give us. We have already had success in 
the peace talks. East Slovenia has been solved, and we may not actually 
have hostilities there. They are making progress.
  But one thing is certain. We should not be doing anything in this 
body to destabilize those peace talks. It does not make any sense. What 
do we get out of it? What is constructive about it? What is the end 
product? What is the message?
  Mr. Speaker, let us give peace a chance. Let us gamble. Let us gamble 
on peace. Is there any cost to that? Absolutely not.
  Mr. Speaker, we have before us today a resolution whose time has not 
come. There will be a time. Let the President, let the administration, 
let our negotiators, let them work for peace.
  Mr. Speaker, I have been in combat. I know the alternative here. I 
did not fight for war. I fought for peace.

                              {time}  1630

  Let us let those negotiators fight for peace. Let us not derail this 
process. Vote no on this rule. Vote no on this resolution.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio, Mr. Speaker, I yield 2\1/2\ minutes to the 
gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Skelton].
  Mr. SKELTON. Mr. Speaker, there is an old saying, the more emotion 
the less reason. Today I call for reason and I call for defeating this 
rule and put an end to the discussion of a very difficult issue whose 
time has not come.
  I do not speak today of sending troops. I am not yet convinced that 
that is the case. I have serious reservations. As a matter of fact, I 
have told the administration that I have eight specific conditions 
before I would even consider it, not the least of which is whether 
there will be training of the Moslems and equipment and ammunition 
given to them.
  What we are doing today is completely out of context. It is untimely. 
It is premature. Let us look at the history of this body.
  This body, when it comes to foreign affairs, matters of national 
security, other countries, we have stopped at the water's edge and 
spoken through the administration, whoever the President may be. Both 
sides of the aisle have spoken together, worked with the administration 
and said to all people from other countries, we are Americans. We 
believe in cooperation; we believe in working together. We speak with 
one voice.
  I was here. I had the first 2 hours of the debate in my control on 
the resolution to send the troops to the gulf. That was a bipartisan 
effort. As a matter of fact, the President, at that time a Republican, 
requested of this Democratic-controlled Congress that we not take up 
the issue prematurely. We did not.
  This rule should be voted down so we may not prematurely take this 
issue up. We must do this in reasoned manner and in a timely manner. 
Let us not rush to judgment. Let us do what is right for our country. 
Let us do what is right for foreign affairs. Let us do what is right 
for the Americans.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, when I came here 17 years ago, I came with 
this next speaker. He is from Green Bay, WI. He is an outstanding 
member of the Committee on International Relations for many years.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from Wisconsin [Mr. 
Roth].
  Mr. ROTH. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding time to me.
  The question comes up repeatedly, why now? Let me tell my colleagues 
why now. This is the last chance we have, all of us in this body, to 
vote on whether we want to send troops into Bosnia. Why? Because we 
have all read this letter from the President, a nine-page letter to the 
Speaker. I want to read to my colleagues just two sentences, because we 
have to read this carefully.
  The President says, ``There will be timely opportunity for Congress 
to consider and act upon the request to send troops into Bosnia.''
  But, listen to this next sentence: ``However, there is a requirement 
for some early prepositioning of small amounts of communication and 
other support personnel.''
  The news media tells us it is 2,000 people. My friends, my friend 
from Florida, the next time you come into this well and this is up for 
a vote, it is not whether you want to send troops to Bosnia. It is 
whether you are going to support the 2,000 troops that are there. That 
is the issue.
  Read this letter and read this carefully, because that is the issue. 
Today you are going to vote whether you are going to send troops to 
Bosnia or not. This is the Gulf of Tonkin resolution here in this 
particular war.
  Mr. WISE. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. ROTH. I yield to the gentleman from West Virginia.
  Mr. WISE. Mr. Speaker, is the gentleman aware that during the Persian 
Gulf lead-up that we prepositioned 500,000 troops before that took 
place?
  Mr. ROTH. Mr. Speaker, the point is that we are voting today on 
whether we are going to put troops into Bosnia.
  Santayana said those who cannot remember the past are condemned to 
repeat it. When President Clinton sent Christopher to Capitol Hill, he 
said there are four questions that have to be answered before we send 
troops overseas. The first question: Is there a clear mission?
  I want to ask my colleagues, is there a clear mission in Bosnia? If 
there is, I would like to hear about it. I hear all these emotional 
speeches about the peace process in Dayton. We are not stopping them 
from having a peace process in Dayton.
  There are four questions, and those are the questions we have to 
consider today.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from 
Maryland [Mr. Gilchrest], a former marine and a great Congressman.
  Mr. GILCHREST. Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the rule and the 
Hefley resolution.
  Does the United States have a responsibility in the international 
arena? The answer is yes. Does the United States have a role to play, a 
significant role to play in the Bosnia crisis? The answer is yes. Do 
the warring parties in Bosnia have a responsibility to come to a 
peaceful resolution? The answer is yes.
  Can and should the United States with NATO forces bring to an abrupt 
end the butchery that we have witnessed over the past so many years? 
Should we support the peace process? We must.
  But consider, was Congress fully informed of the consequences of the 
Tonkin Gulf resolution in 1964, of Somalia, of Haiti, et cetera, et 
cetera, et cetera? Should we commit troops before we are fully 
informed? The answer is no.
  I urge support of the rule.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of good Democrats. I used 
to be one. One of those is Gene Taylor.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. 
Taylor].
  Mr. TAYLOR of Mississippi. Mr. Speaker, when I was a Mississippi 
State Senator, our secretary of the senate was a former Congressman by 
the name of Charlie Griffin who served up here during the Vietnam 
years. And I remember asking Charlie, how could you serve up there 
during the whole Vietnam war and there was never an effort made to 
declare it a war? How can you send kids off to what you know will be a 
war and not vote on war?
  Charlie's in heaven. And Charlie, I want you to know that I remember 
that conversation. I want you to know that we are getting ready to send 
kids into what is clearly a war. I am going to demand that we vote on 
it, because that is our job. Read the Constitution. It is not the 
President's. It is our job. We cannot run away from it.
  If you think we ought to do it, vote for it. I think we should not do 
it. I am going to vote against it.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from 
Georgia [Mr. Kingston], another outstanding Member of this body.
  Mr. KINGSTON. Mr. Speaker, the folks back in my district do not 
understand all the history of the Balkans. They do not understand 
everything that is going on in Dayton, and they do not understand all 
the boundaries and all the players. But they do understand the many 
questions that we have to answer to them, and I think the gentleman 
from Wisconsin [Mr. Roth] alluded to these.
  Is there a clear peril, an American peril? Is there a clear mission? 
Is there 

[[Page H13221]]
a clear plan to achieve it? How will we accomplish it? Who will help us 
with it and to what extent? Who are our allies, who will be in the 
foxhole with your sons and daughters? What will determine when the 
mission is accomplished? How will we withdraw once that mission is 
accomplished? And what will we do to keep a lasting peace?
  Winston Churchill said nothing that ever starts in the Balkans ever 
ends there. Bismarch said, there is nothing that could happen in the 
Balkans that is worth one drop of German blood. That was before World 
War I.
  This is not a peace process. This is a war process. I do not think at 
this time we should send our sons and daughters to Bosnia, and I am 
going to support the rule and vote no on sending troops there.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from 
Indiana [Mr. Buyer], an outstanding member of the Committee on National 
Security, a veteran of the gulf war.
  Mr. BUYER. Mr. Speaker, most of us here today are in agreement. Three 
weeks ago 315 of my colleagues joined in a bipartisan manner to urge 
the President not to send ground troops to Bosnia. Ground troops were a 
bad idea then, and it is a bad idea today. Some of my colleagues 
disagree with this next step that we have here right now to cut off the 
funds for a troop deployment to Bosnia before a peace agreement is in 
fact signed. I can understand that. I think we should probably perhaps 
wait to see what the President's product is. But let us not kid 
ourselves. We know what that product is.
  Based on all of the hearings and all of the meetings that I have 
attended, those of us that have taken interest in this issue have 
attended, the troops, it is down range. It is happening. It is in a 
plan of action. Do not kid yourself. If you are going to just sit back 
here today and wait, and say, well, I just want to see the product, I 
am going to vote against this today but I do not want to send troops, 
you are only kidding yourself. The troops are going. It is a serious 
and valid question, though, and I believe we should ask it.
  Significant questions though remain about the purpose and execution 
of the President's plan. That is the clear and concise mission? What is 
the desired end state? How do we define success? What is our exit 
strategy, based on that definition of success? How can we maintain our 
neutrality while we arm and equip and train Bosnian Moslems? What are 
the vital national security interests? Are they at stake?

  If we are going to go in because of vital national security 
interests, do not say we will only be there for a year because a date 
certain is not an exit strategy. If you have vital national security 
interests to go in, then they must match your success. And that depends 
on how long you stay.
  Mr. President, you should not hide from the tough questions for fear 
of the answers. Mr. President, the only thing I ask is, please remove 
the blinders and listen and see what you will see and what you will 
hear is that the American people, through this Congress, disagree that 
U.S. ground troops should be used as a precondition or a predicate to a 
peace agreement.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Speaker, I yield such time as he may consume to the 
gentleman from Maryland [Mr. Bartlett].
  (Mr. BARTLETT of Maryland asked and was given permission to revise 
and extend his remarks.)
  Mr. BARTLETT of Maryland. Mr. Speaker, I rise against sending troops 
to Bosnia without congressional approval and against requiring our 
military to wear U.N. insignia.
  Mr. Speaker, I rise today in support of this rule, however, I am very 
disappointed that the Rules Committee did not make my amendment in 
order. Today, this House will vote on whether or not we send young 
American men and women as ground soldiers in Bosnia. While I do not 
believe the President has made a sufficient case for us to send our 
troops into harm's say, I do believe there is another side issue which 
needs to be addressed and that this bill is the proper vehicle.
  No doubt you have heard the story of our brave soldier, Army 
Specialist Michael New. Specialist New is an Army medic serving his 
country while stationed in Germany. He was recently told that his unit 
would be ordered to serve as part of the U.N. operation in Bosnia and 
would be required to wear blue berets and a U.N. insignia on their 
uniforms. As I am sure you are aware, Specialist New has refused to 
wear a U.N. uniform and is now awaiting court martial for disobeying an 
order.
  I fully understand that Specialist New will face the charges because 
he disobeyed an order. I do not mean to imply that soldiers should be 
free to disobey their commanders. But there is an overriding issue: 
Specialist New believes this order was unlawful.
  Specialist New as well as a large number of Members of this body 
believe that our young men and women who serve our country take an oath 
to honor and defend the Constitution of the United States. They do not 
take an oath to defend the Charter of the United Nations, and they 
believe that when they wear the insignia of the U.N. that they transfer 
their allegiance to the U.N. Charter.
  The amendment that I intend to offer today is of great importance and 
is very timely. If this House is going to debate whether to send troops 
to Bosnia, we must raise the issue of whether U.S. troops should be 
required to wear a uniform that signifies allegiance to the United 
Nations.
  My amendment is very simple. It would not have prevented the U.S. 
military from participating in U.N. activities but it would have 
prohibited the requirement of the Armed Forces to wear the uniform or 
any insignia of the United Nations. This amendment will in no way 
affect Specialist New's case because it only applies to the future 
wearing of such uniforms. The language of my amendment is identical to 
H.R. 2540 which was introduced by the House majority whip, Tom Delay.
  The timing of this issue could not be any more appropriate. 
Specialist New will be arraigned today for his court martial. This 
House should send the message that it will not tolerate our soldiers 
being given which may be unlawful orders. It is my sincere hope that 
this House will bring H.R. 2540 to the floor in the very near future.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I yield the remaining 3 minutes to the 
gentleman from California [Mr. Dellums], former chairman of the 
Committee on Armed Services.
  Mr. DELLUMS. Mr. Speaker, there are those rare moments in this body 
that require the best of us, that require that we rise above our 
ideological perspectives, beyond partisanship, that lift us to a very 
high place. I think this is one of those moments.
  Mr. Speaker, before he died, Prime Minister Rabin said to a number of 
us on the Committee on National Security that peace is a very difficult 
proposition. You do not have to make peace with your friends. Peace is 
difficult. The context of this debate is going forward in an era that 
has now been referred to as the post-cold war era, where I believe the 
enemy is war itself and the great challenge of the post-cold war is 
indeed peace.

                              {time}  1645

  Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, just a few short months ago many 
of my colleagues in the highly charged debate, with a great deal of 
hand wringing, suggested that the slaughter and the ethnic cleansing, 
the savagery that was taking place in former Yugoslavia needed to end, 
and thee was a great deal of frustration, and people decided that the 
moral thing to do was to lift the arms embargo and put more arms into 
that part of the world and allow the savagery, the death and the 
destruction to continue on moral grounds.
  But now we find that this moment, Mr. Speaker and Members of this 
House, that that was not the only option. People are now at this very 
moment, in a Herculean effort, moving from the bloodiness of the 
battlefield of Bosnia to the negotiating table in the United States, 
trying to achieve that difficult thing called peace.
  Now whether one is for or against the American involvement and 
implementing such a peace plan is a legitimate question; and we should, 
because I stand second to no one in this institution, jealously 
guarding the prerogatives of the Congress of the United States when it 
comes to the deployment of troops overseas. I went to the courts of the 
United States to take that stance. So we have a right to debate that, 
should be involved as a practical, political, moral and philosophical 
issue.

  But this is not that moment. We must be rational, intelligent, and 
responsible human beings. There is a time and a moment for everything. 
This is not such a moment. To make a decision before we see a plan is 
absurd, ludicrous, ridiculous, premature, and I would suggest to my 
colleagues, Mr. Speaker, potentially devastating. What then becomes the 
moral implications 

[[Page H13222]]
of our action if based on this prematurity that the peace talks fall 
apart, and the ethnic cleansing, the death, the destruction and the 
savagery go forward? We then have unclean hands.
  I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we rise to this lofty moment. At 
the end of the day, whether one is for or against the President, take 
that stance, but do not perpetrate this kind of effort that would 
prematurely deal with this issue. I underscore the challenge of the 
post cold war. The challenge is one of peace.
  Mr. SOLOMON. My Speaker, I yield myself the balance of the time and 
say there are three issues at stake here. One is cost. We cannot drain 
our military of billions of dollars annually which causes massive 
layoffs of our military personnel. That is not right.
  Second, American foreign policy has always been to defend our treaty 
allies against outside military aggression. That is not the case here. 
We cannot now begin to participate in a NATO event that is going to go 
out of area, go away from this concept and start trying to settle 
internal issues of civil strife. We must not do that; that is wrong.
  Third and most importantly, my colleagues say, ``Why do it today?'' 
Because it may be our last chance to save the lives of American 
soldiers and Marines that might have to go in there and lose their 
lives in a place they have no reason being.
  Lift the embargo, give them money, give them weapons, and let them 
defend themselves without putting an American serviceman in harm's way.
  Mr. Speaker, I move the previous question on the resolution.
  The previous question was ordered.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. LaHood). The question is on the 
resolution.
  The question was taken; and the Speaker pro tempore announced that 
the ayes appeared to have it.
  Mr. HALL of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I object to the vote on the ground 
that a quorum is not present and make the point of order that a quorum 
is not present.
  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Evidently a quorum is not present.
  The Sergeant at Arms will notify absent Members.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--yeas 239, 
nays 181, not voting 12, as follows:

                             [Roll No. 813]

                               YEAS--239

     Allard
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bateman
     Bereuter
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cox
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Davis
     Deal
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Durbin
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Evans
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Hastert
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Inglis
     Istook
     Jacobs
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Linder
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Lucas
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     Menendez
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Molinari
     Moorhead
     Morella
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pombo
     Porter
     Portman
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Skeen
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Stearns
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Traficant
     Upton
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weldon (PA)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wolf
     Wyden
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                               NAYS--181

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Andrews
     Baesler
     Baldacci
     Barcia
     Barrett (WI)
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bevill
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Boucher
     Browder
     Brown (CA)
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Bryant (TX)
     Callahan
     Cardin
     Chapman
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     Cramer
     Danner
     de la Garza
     DeFazio
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Dooley
     Doyle
     Edwards
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
     Frost
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Green
     Gunderson
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hamilton
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Holden
     Hoyer
     Jackson-Lee
     Jefferson
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, E. B.
     Johnston
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     Klink
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lincoln
     Lipinski
     Lofgren
     Longley
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McCarthy
     McHale
     McKinney
     McNulty
     Meehan
     Meek
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Minge
     Mink
     Moakley
     Mollohan
     Montgomery
     Moran
     Murtha
     Nadler
     Neal
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Orton
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Payne (VA)
     Pelosi
     Peterson (FL)
     Pickett
     Pomeroy
     Poshard
     Rahall
     Rangel
     Reed
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Roemer
     Rose
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Schumer
     Scott
     Serrano
     Sisisky
     Skaggs
     Skelton
     Slaughter
     Spratt
     Stark
     Stenholm
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Tanner
     Tejeda
     Thompson
     Thornton
     Thurman
     Torres
     Torricelli
     Towns
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Visclosky
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Williams
     Wilson
     Wise
     Woolsey
     Wynn
     Yates

                             NOT VOTING--12

     Brewster
     Collins (IL)
     Fields (LA)
     Harman
     Hefner
     Hyde
     Largent
     McDermott
     Neumann
     Smith (MI)
     Tucker
     Volkmer

                              {time}  1708

  Ms. KAPTUR changed her vote from ``yea'' to ``nay.''
  So the resolution was agreed to.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  A motion to reconsider was laid on the table.

                          ____________________