[Congressional Record Volume 141, Number 160 (Tuesday, October 17, 1995)]
[House]
[Pages H10129-H10135]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                      THE PROGRAM TO SAVE MEDICARE

  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Gutknecht). Under the Speaker's 
announced policy of May 12, 1995, the gentleman from Florida [Mr. 
Miller] is recognized for 60 minutes as the designee of the majority 
leader.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. Mr. Speaker, we are finally coming down to the 
time we are actually going to be able to vote on the Medicare Program. 
I am excited about the fact that we are finally going to have the 
chance to really vote and pass a good Medicare Program that saves the 
Medicare Program. That is something we are proud of over on this side 
of the aisle.
  All we hear from the other side of the aisle, all we hear are fear 
and scare tactics. You know, the saying is Medicare or mediscare. All 
we are hearing is, ``Oh, my gosh, what are we going to do?''
  Listen to the truth. We are saving Medicare. It is going to become a 
better program. You know, Medicare is a very, very important program. 
It is very important for me in my district in Florida. I have got more 
seniors than any congressional district in the United States. So I have 
large numbers of seniors. It is very important for jobs in my district. 
It is the largest employer in my district. My mother, my 86-year-old 
mother, is on Medicare, and my in-laws, whom I just lost recently, were 
on Medicare. It is very important to me personally. So we have to save 
Medicare. No one wants to get rid of Medicare.
  The simple question is, and I do not understand what they are 
screaming about, Medicare should not be a partisan issue. Everybody on 
both sides of the aisle agree Medicare is going bankrupt. We do not 
disagree with that issue, and Medicare, we need to save it. We agree on 
that.
  We have the plan. We have the only plan, actually. The Democrats are 
saying they want to save Medicare, too. So we are all in agreement on 
that. All we want to do is offer choices.
  What is wrong with offering choices? The previous speakers said we do 
not want to have these choices; this is a bad choice, that is a bad 
choice. What is wrong with choices? As a Federal employee, I have 
choice. You have choice, I say to the gentleman from Arizona [Mr. 
Hayworth]. You have a choice when you choose next month. We are going 
to get a choice next month. As a Federal employee, we have the same 
plan as anybody in the Department of Agriculture and Commerce. We are 
going to get a list of choice, and we choose. Why should not seniors 
get a right to choose?
  Mr. HAYWORTH. If the gentleman will yield, I think that is absolutely 
the key point to this debate, and we have to ask ourselves, realizing 
that good people can disagree, and indeed we come to this Chamber to 
discuss issues of vital importance, such as Medicare preservation and 
Medicare improvement; we have to simply give people choice. You know, I 
listened with great interest, Mr. Speaker, as our friends preceded us 
in this special order, and I noted with interest a couple of remarks 
from my good friend from Washington State, and just to put this in some 
perspective, in my former profession, where I talked a great deal about 
athletics, I think my friend from Washington State offered the improper 
analogy. He was claiming that the new majority was trying to throw a 
Randy Johnson-like fast ball past the American people. I would take 
issue with that. Instead I would say that our friends, who are really 
guardians of the status quo and the old order, the new minority, is 
trying to throw the American people a hanging curve ball, because let 
us make no mistake about it, my good friend from Washington State who 
preceded us here in the well, those who studied the health care debate 
of a year and a half to 2 years ago realize that our friend from 
Washington State was the proponent of a health care plan, a national 
health care plan that can be safely said was even to the left of 
President Clinton's plan.
  It was as if my friend from Washington State wanted to transmogrify 
the United States into the Dominion of Canada to try to bring that type 
of health care to this country, cradle to grave, soup to nuts, State-
sponsored triage that was, in my humble opinion, irresponsible, with a 
massive centralized bureaucracy and putting health care decisions in 
the hands of government.
  What we are trying to do is to change that, to say that the time for 
scaring the American people is over. It is time to provide options. We 
have options in every other walk of life. Why should we change at age 
65 and only have one plan in a one-size-fits-all scenario? That is the 
wrong route.
  Let us provide more choices even as we restrain the rate of growth. 
We still have growth in expenditures.
  But I was also struck by one diagnosis that my friend from Washington 
State, as a psychiatrist, I think, was very appropriate in offering. In 
the early days of this Congress, as things changed, he talked about the 
fact that the guardians of the old order were, to quote him now, ``in a 
state of denial about the way things have changed here, and the new 
philosophies predominant on the Hill.'' I would simply add a footnote 
to that. Not only were members of the new minority in a state of 
denial, that denial has been followed by rage, and one of the lessons I 
have learned here, and I will be very candid with my friend from 
Florida, to my eternal regret, in the wake of the historic shift within 
this body, what we find so often now is that the debate has very little 
to do with policy and everything to do with power from the perspective 
of my friends in the new minority.
  So jealous are they of the change in power that they will do 
anything, say anything, claim anything, to scare people about changes 
that need to take place, and so, again, I think that we ought to 
stretch out a hand and say good people can disagree, but let us suffer 
no illusions or delusions about what is going on here. We have a plan, 
a responsible plan to deal with the sobering realization that the 
trustees' report brought to the floor that Medicare, if we do nothing, 
goes bankrupt in the next 7 years.

  Again, I hear our friends in the mass media, many of them almost 
acting as if in collusion with the new minority to claim it is to pay 
for some sort of tax cut. Nothing could be further from the truth. This 
is, as my friend from Florida knows, through the stewardship of the 
Committee on the Budget, the hard work of the gentleman from Ohio 
chairing that committee, we took care of making sure that all Americans 
could have more of their hard-earned money in their pocket, and this 
instead is in response to a bipartisan trustees' report that compels us 
to act now.

                              {time}  1930

  In fact, as I see here, the gentleman has brought something to the 
floor from a publication not typically sympathetic to conservative 
points of view.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. I just do not understand what the point they 
are making from the other side of the aisle is. They agree we are 
saving Medicare. They say we are having choices. What is wrong with 
choices? They cannot disagree with the fact we are not changing the 
deductibles, we are not changing the coinsurance. They cannot disagree 
with that.
  The premiums are going to continue going up, but at a slower rate 
than they have been going up in the past. So they cannot disagree with 
that. We are going after waste, fraud, and abuse. What is wrong with 
going after waste, 

[[Page H 10130]]
fraud, and abuse? I do not understand what their point is.
  The Washington Post, not known as a Republican paper, says the 
congressional Republicans have confounded the skeptics. Our plan is 
credible, gutsy, and it addresses the genuine problem that is only 
going to get worse.
  Let us see what the Washington Post says about the Democrats. My 
friend from Arizona, look what they are saying about the Democrats.
  Mr. HAYWORTH. This is something. To use the words you have up here 
for us, let me recite it for the folks on what the Post has to say 
about the Democrats' MediScare campaign. ``Crummy stuff.'' 
``Demagoguery, big time.'' ``Scare talk.'' ``Expostulation.'' Finally, 
quoting again, ``It is irresponsible.''
  The fact is, as my good friend from Florida knows, we have yet to 
really see a definitive plan. And this is part of the frustration that 
I am sure the gentleman encounters in his district. As the gentleman's 
experience warrants in Florida, so too is my experience in Arizona. 
Many seniors living in the Sixth Congressional District of Arizona are 
saying to me, ``You know, you are right to try and fix this problem, 
and not wait on a commission or not take a Band-aid approach to say, 
`Okay, there is a problem, but let us just try to solve it through the 
next election.' ''
  Believe me, from the old days of politics, the easiest thing to do 
would be to stick our heads in the sand or try a little change here in 
the hopes that we could paper over it through the next election. But I 
know that is not what the people in Arizona or Florida or Connecticut 
sent us here to do. We are here to make the changes needed, 
responsible, reasonable changes, to improve this system; thus the name, 
Medicare Plus.
  This is one other note we really have to reinforce, despite all the 
scare talk: If people like conventional Medicare, as they have it now, 
they are free to keep it. You mentioned the experience of your mother. 
My granddad is 91. He does not want a lot of things to complicate his 
lifestyle. He may very well want to stay on the program that has served 
him, and that, too, will be his choice.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. Let us define the problem. I am sure everybody 
listening here this evening understands what happened. The fund is 
going broke. It is going bankrupt. There is no dispute of that issue. 
The trustees, most of them are members of the Cabinet of President 
Clinton, but this is not a partisan issue. We are doing it together. 
The fund is projected to be exhausted in 2001. That is not politics; it 
is the facts, folks. We have to do something about saving Medicare. It 
is a simple fact it is going to be totally bankrupt in 7 years.
  We have a trust fund. The only money going into this trust fund is 
payroll taxes. Under the Medicare part A, there is 2.9 percent payroll 
taxes that goes into a trust fund. The only money going out of that 
trust fund is to pay for Medicare part A. Next year, for the first time 
in the history of the Medicare Program, actually this year, which 
started October 1, more money will be going out than going in. For the 
first time in history we are going to spend more money out of that 
trust fund than money coming in in payroll taxes.
  It is going broke. All the reserves, which are about $129 billion, 
are going to be completely gone in the year 2002, and then we have a 
disaster. And the real problem hits in the year 2010, because in 2010, 
that is the baby-boomer year, 65 years after the close of World War II, 
and when the baby-boomers start retiring. Everything blows up. So if we 
just put it off, the decision about Medicare, if we just put it off, 
what happens is it gets worse and worse every year.
  We cannot put our head in the sand to try to solve this problem. We 
need to remember that the spending on Medicare has been going up at 
over 10 percent a year, and the private sector health care costs are 
going up much less. All we need to do is slow the rate of growth in 
spending.
  This always bothers me, when they say we are cutting Medicare. Our 
plan does not cut Medicare. We increase spending every year on 
Medicare. Over the next 7 years we are going to spend $354 billion more 
than we spent on Medicare for the past 7 years. We are increasing 
spending by $354 billion more during the next 7 years than we did for 
the past 7 years.
  It is going up every year. We keep saying only in Washington do you 
call an increase in spending a cut. I just do not understand how you 
keep increasing spending and saying you are cutting spending. The facts 
are the facts. We are increasing spending $354 billion over 7 years.
  Mr. HAYWORTH. I just do not think we can state this enough. Now, I do 
not know by what mathematical gauge we are dealing here in Washington. 
I know George Orwell wrote of a ``Newspeak,'' a different type of 
language that said ignorance is strength, war is peace, and things of 
that nature. I cannot help but see the same type of pattern here with 
what goes on in terms of Washington numbers.
  Now, I know the gentleman has been well respected in the world of 
business. Would the gentleman just review the numbers here again on 
this chart and explain again very slowly, so the American people can 
understand, and especially those who reside inside this Beltway, can 
understand what in essence is going to transpire.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. I am a former statistics professor, I have a 
Ph.D. and taught statistics for many years. It does not take a Ph.D. in 
statistics to understand this. These are simple numbers. The way you 
get these numbers, in 1995, we are spending $179 billion on Medicare, 
which is $4,816 per person for every man and woman on Medicare. The 
total amount of money we are spending right now is $4,816 per person on 
Medicare.
  Now, in 7 years, we are going to spend $6,734 per person on Medicare. 
That is an increase per person, whether we talk about a total amount of 
dollars or on a per person basis.
  Mr. HAYWORTH. An increase of almost $2,000, it appears.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. That is right, per person, almost $2,000 more. 
It is MediScare, fear tactics.

  Mr. HAYWORTH. I notice, without having the privilege of taking one of 
your statistics courses when I was at North Carolina State, but just to 
put it in real terminology, I offered this example before and I think 
it has some validity here, in real live terms. When my daughter asked 
for an increase in her allowance, I gave her $5 a week until junior 
high. By the time she got to high school, we said, Honey, live a 
little. We doubled it to $10. I do not know if it was fiscally 
responsible or not. She did not grouse and complain and say, Daddy, you 
did not take it to $15. Therefore, you cut my allowance by $5. She had 
a genuine increase. Her allowance was doubled.
  I think the point the gentleman is making is this is not rocket 
science, but is, as in the mid-to-late fifties, what Dwight Eisenhower 
used to call the study of government and description of politics, 
``sophisticated nonsense.'' Lost among the sophisticated nonsense and 
fear tactics and rhetoric is this very simple message that is the 
foundation of what it is we are doing.
  Again, I yield to my friend from Florida, because I do not think we 
can repeat this enough.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. One other chart that shows it is, let us look 
at it on a monthly basis over the next 7 years. This is what the 
Federal Government is spending per month for every person, beneficiary, 
on Medicare: In 1995, $401 per month; 1996, $423; $440; $460; $481; up 
to $561 per month per beneficiary on Medicare.
  I just do not understand where you get a cut when you go from $401 a 
month to $561 a month. That is an increase in spending. In fact, when I 
explained it one time at a meeting back in my district in Sarasota, 
somebody got mad at me. Why are we increasing it so much? We can live 
within these numbers. They are live, and we can have a good program. I 
am proud of the program that we have on Medicare. It is an exciting 
program, giving more choices and options.
  I am glad our colleague from Connecticut, Mr. Shays, is with us 
today.
  Mr. SHAYS. Mr. Speaker, I just would like to weigh in on this. I was 
listening to both of you in my office and I felt compelled to join you, 
because this is something that we have been working on for years, 
particularly this last year.
  We are going to spend $675 billion of additional new dollars in the 
next 7 

[[Page H 10131]]
years as opposed to the last 7 years. We spent about $926 billion 
between these last 7 years, and in the next 7 years we expect to spend 
about $1.6 trillion. That is an extraordinary amount of new dollars. 
Those new dollars are going to be used to help beneficiaries.
  What amazes me is that when I listen to the plan, described by some 
of my constituents, that was described candidly by Members on the other 
side of the aisle, I thought, I do not like that Medicare plan.
  They described to me a plan that created new copayments and increased 
existing copayments. That is a not. They described a plan that created 
new deductions and new deductibles and increased the deductibles that 
exist. That is a not. The hospital deductible, the doctor deductible is 
going to stay the same. They described premiums where they were going 
to have to pay more, and the fact is they are going to pay 31.5 
percent, which is exactly what they pay now, and it will stay that way. 
As health care rises that premium cost will go up, as it has during the 
last 7 years.
  I thought, none of that is true. As I talk to my constituents, they 
say it is a not. I have been told it was. It is not true. The bottom 
line is no copayment, no deductible, no increase until premiums. But 
they say, but I have been told I cannot have my doctors. I am going to 
be forced out to get private care. That is a not as well. It is not 
going to happen.

  Beneficiaries can stay in the same program they are in now. If they 
have a doctor for their heart, kidneys, or stomach, or any other ill 
they have, they can keep those doctors. No change whatsoever.
  I am excited about this plan, because it allows people to stay in the 
existing plan, but it then allows them to get into private care plans 
if they want. They can even have a medical savings account and buy a 
large deductible if they want to do that. They have so many options. 
They can stay in fee for service.
  So I look at what we are trying to do, which is slow the growth of 
this program to about 6.3 percent. I would just come back to the 
original point: In the 7th year we are going to spend 54-percent more 
than we spend today. That is a gigantic increase. In the 7th year, 
beneficiaries, per beneficiary, are going to get 40-percent more per 
beneficiary.
  I look at the plan and say this is a job well done. I would defend 
this program anywhere. I would debate anyone on this issue. It simply 
is a plan we can be very proud of. I hope ultimately the American 
people are focused in on what this plan is and not a plan described by 
people on the other side of the aisle who simply want to prevent this 
from happening.
  Mr. HAYWORTH. Mr. Speaker, I think you make such an outstanding 
point, that we have to remember that we are offering again, as our good 
friend from Florida pointed out at the outset of this time together, we 
are offering choices. And the ultimate choice is if people like what 
they have, they can keep it.
  Again, I am struck by the difference. It is interesting to see some 
Members of the fourth estate try to cover this debate and try to draw 
an analogy with the failed soup to nuts, cradle to grave, socialized 
plans that were offered 2 years ago and say that somehow there is a 
synergy between the two things.
  Nothing could be further from the truth. Going back to our analogy of 
the hanging curve ball, how interesting it is that guardians of the old 
order and proponents of socialized medicine are now coming to this 
floor saying that we denied, or that we would deny people their choice 
of their own physician.
  Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no synergy between 
these two episodes in history. We are offering something profoundly 
different, predicated on what is, I believe, the essence of being an 
American, the chance to take a look economically and personally at what 
is best for our future destiny and having an option to determine what 
is best.
  It is so interesting to hear the descriptions, as if latitude in 
personal decisions is something to be feared or as if there is some 
sort of unseen compulsory action that will take place that will force 
people into certain programs.
  Nothing could be further from the truth. We are enlarging choice for 
the American people and renewing freedom that heretofore has been 
denied for the past 30 years, despite the virtues of this program, when 
people magically hit the age of 65.
  Mr. SHAYS. Mr. Speaker, one of the plans we are allowing, we are 
allowing doctors and hospitals to have their own program. In other 
words, they can now compete directly with the insurance industry; they 
can compete with HMO's, health maintenance organizations. They can 
participate in this process. I believe that they will be able to 
provide patients extraordinary care at significant reductions in price.

                              {time}  1945

  One of the things that happens is in this process of choice, they can 
stay in their fee-for-service. The only way they have to leave is they 
have to choose to leave. And the only way they will choose to leave is 
if they can get better health care in one of the private plans.
  So, for instance, if a private plan wants to say that their premium 
will be less, they will get a rebate or, in fact, their deductible, 
which presently is on hospitals and doctors, would be reduced, they can 
get that. Some plans might entice individuals to participate because 
they will get drug care for the first time, or eyeglass care or dental 
care, which they might not get now. The only way that happens is if 
they can convince individuals they should leave their plan.
  Now, if they leave their plan, under our proposal, we are allowing 
Medicare patients every month to go back into their old system. There 
is a 2-year window where they can simply go back the next month. And 
then, in the third year, it would be every year. So we are saying if an 
individual really wants to test it, and they are not sure they will 
like it, they can go right back to what they have.
  I have tremendous confidence a lot will choose to do the private care 
and they will stay there because they will find they will be better.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. I think those are very important points to 
remember. Two important points the gentleman has made. Traditional 
Medicare will be there. My 86-year-old mother is not going to change, 
and that is fine. I think she should have the right to stay in the 
system the way she is. She is not going to want to change. So everybody 
has the right to stay in the system.
  The other important point is, during the first couple years of this, 
with 30 days notice, an individual can change back to the system. They 
can change every month if they want. What is wrong with that? Why would 
someone object to having the chance to choose, and if they do not like 
it, change again? It is their right to choose. Just like as a Federal 
employee we get to choose once a year. That makes sense. What is wrong 
with that? I don't understand what the scare tactics.
  Mr. HAYWORTH. If the gentleman would continue to yield, I know we 
listened to our colleague from Vermont [Mr. Sanders] bemoaning 
prescription costs. Again, the gentleman from Connecticut [Mr. Shays] 
has pointed out what may very well be one of the virtues of these many 
different plans, that there may be copayments and reduced fees for the 
very prescription drugs that my friend from Vermont was so concerned 
about.
  This is really the essence of the debate we are having here. Again, 
good people can disagree. There are some who legitimately believe that 
it is the domain and the responsibility of the Federal Government to 
act not only as the charity of first recourse, but to be the principal 
architect and the principal provider of about every service here in the 
late 20th century. I think, fundamentally, the American people reject 
that notion, but the American people look for a plan that empowers the 
populace, that empowers the citizenry, and that can give them the very 
choice they need to make responsible decisions. Again, those decision 
governed by their particular situations and their particular 
lifestyles. That is what is so important.
  So the very thing that our friend seemed to fear, may, in the final 
analysis, be a phantom.
  Mr. SHAYS. If the gentleman would yield, we basically have a plan 
that has no increase in the deductible, no increase in copayment, keeps 
the same premium cost, allows individuals to keep the present system 
they have, allows them to move into private care, if 

[[Page H 10132]]
they do not like the private care, they can come right back in.
  Someone said, well, why not take the premium, which is 31.5 percent 
and have it go down? What they are saying is, on Medicare part B, which 
is what the premium pays for, all the health care services, we are 
saying the taxpayer is going to continue to pay 68.5 percent. If we 
allow the premium to go down, we are then saying the taxpayers are 
going to have to pay 70 percent and 80 percent and so on.
  So we are saying taxpayers will stay at 68.5 percent for Medicare 
part B, and those who receive the care are going to stay at 31.5 
percent. To me, that is a very honest and straightforward way. The 
taxpayers will have to pay more as health care costs go up, and the 
premium will also go up slightly as well, but we are keeping that bond 
and that protection.
  While we are not always mentioning this, it is something that I think 
should be put on the table. We are trying very hard to make sure that 
there is not a transfer of wealth from families to senior citizens. We 
have to be straight with everyone here; that the Federal Government 
cannot continue to pick up more of the percentage, because, otherwise, 
we will make families poorer and poorer. And it is not easy for a 
family today with two children, that makes $40,000, that now does not 
have the same deduction per child that my parents had. My parents had, 
in today's dollars, the equivalent, $8,000, they could take for each 
child, and a family today has $2500. My parents paid about 20 percent 
of their income in Federal, State and local taxes. A family today pays 
30 to 40 percent.
  We have to, when we talk about what we are doing for our elderly so 
we can protect Medicare, we also have to focus in on what we are trying 
to do for families.
  Mr. HAYWORTH. If the gentleman would yield, I think he makes a very, 
very valid point. And, quite candidly, there have been those seniors 
that have come to me, and perhaps other Members in your respective 
districts have found this to be true as well, and they say, now, wait a 
minute, what about this whole notion of tax cuts? So many of those 
seniors I talk to I ask, and many of them were starting a family in 
1948, maybe had a couple of kids. Back from the war, starting a career. 
And for an average family of four in 1948, 3 percent of that family's 
income went to the Federal Government in terms of taxation. Now, 
compare and contrast that with last year, when a typical family of four 
surrendered almost one quarter, 24 percent, of its income to the 
Federal Government.
  As the gentleman from Connecticut [Mr. Shays] points out, with State 
and local taxes, with the hidden cost, the hidden taxes, if you will, 
of regulation, more and more people are surrendering 40, almost 50 
percent of their income to the Federal Government.
  So, again, what this new majority is trying to do, what we are tying 
to do in the Congress of the United States is empower people, not only 
the seniors but the families, to have more of their hard earned money. 
The people of the 6th district of Arizona last November sent a very 
simple message to Washington through my election, and that is this. We 
work hard for the money we earn. Let us hang on to more of it and send 
less of it to Washington. That is not born of a selfish impulse. Simply 
people realize that the place for charity does not come from the 
Federal Government being the charity of first resort.

  And while there have been many innovative programs designed to 
empower people, we cannot empower people on one hand and yet enslave 
others with the same type of equation. There has to be opportunity 
across the board.
  And I thank the gentleman from Connecticut for bringing up that very 
real challenge, whether it is income tax or payroll tax for part B 
Medicare in that trust fund. We have to understand that the work force 
today is called on more and more to pay taxes and they need to hang on 
to their money, and we have to find a way to get that done.
  And that is why this plan, I believe, offers the best alternative yet 
devised to empower people and to work this problem through.
  Mr. SHAYS. I wonder if the gentleman would yield again. I want to 
point out that we are a family in this place, in terms of our desire to 
take on some very tough issues. I have been here 8 years, and this is 
the first time we have had an honest dialog with our constituents about 
the need to deal with entitlements and control their growth. Slow the 
growth. Allow them to grow faster than any other part of the 
Government, but to slow the growth and to make some very necessary 
spending reductions in domestic spending.
  We have been very honest to say that we have to get our financial 
house in order and balance the budget. That is our first task. Our 
second task is to save our trust funds, particularly Medicare, which 
the gentleman from Florida [Mr. Miller] has focused so eloquently on. 
And our third task is to change the social corporate welfare state into 
an opportunity society.
  We are going to do our best to save this American civilization and 
have a society where people can prosper.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. I am excited about the plan we will vote on on 
Thursday. It really is a great plan, and I am proud to be able to be 
part of the process of being able to introduce it on Thursday.
  When we talk about the process, the gentleman mentioned talking to 
your constituents, and our friend from Arizona also. The thing that 
made our plan I think a successful plan is that we have been talking to 
the people that make the difference, that make the decisions that it 
impacts.
  So often they want to have these hearings and we have all the 
policywonks, and maybe some from your State and my State, that come up 
here and say here is the theory. This is the way it should happen. I 
think that was the mistake in the plans last year. We have had over a 
thousand town hall meetings throughout the country listening to people. 
I am having another one this Saturday in Sarasota. I had one in a 
mobile home park in Ellington, FL, a week ago. I have them all the 
time, listening to the people and getting their input.
  In addition, we have listened to the organizations that are on the 
front line. We have listened to the AARP, we have listened to the 
hospital groups and the physician groups. We have listened to the 
different groups that are on the front line and delivering care, and 
they believe what we are doing is the right direction.
  There may be some differences. They may not wholeheartedly support 
this. They may not like something in it. The trial lawyers may not like 
us, of course. But the thing is we have listened to the people. That is 
the most important thing, the ones on the front line, rather than just 
the policywonks. The message basically is save Medicare and no Band-
Aids. Let us fix it now and let us address the problem.
  Mr. SHAYS. I wonder if the gentleman would continue to yield, so that 
I can point out and use real numbers. One of the points I want to make, 
and the gentleman from Florida, I think, represents an extraordinary 
number of senior citizens and your input, as in my work, as we have 
worked together on the Committee on the Budget on Medicare and 
Medicaid, has helped shape this plan, and that plan has been shaped by 
what we have been hearing.
  My constituents have said, I have to keep my own doctor. Done. I have 
had other constituents say I want some choice. Done. I have had other 
constituents say I would like the opportunity for plans to give me 
eyeglass care or dental care. Done. Or prescription drug care. Done. I 
have had other constituents who have said I want the opportunity to 
have a medical savings account and to buy only catastrophic care. Done.
  I mean we have been listening. That is not the way our plan started 
out. It has been shaped by the constituents we represent.
  Now, I have had a number of constituents, I have had, candidly, I 
went to a funeral last night, where the member who passed away was a 
member of the Republican town committee. And I had one of my best 
supporters walk down the stairs and say, ``Don't you dare. Don't you 
dare make any change in my Medicare plan.'' I said, ``Tell me what are 
you concerned about.'' She said, ``I am concerned you are cutting my 
medicare plan.'' I said, ``Well. We are allowing it to grow at 6.3 
percent.'' ``No, I heard you were cutting. I heard this from the 
AARP.'' I said, ``We are 

[[Page H 10133]]
slowing the growth.'' Then she said, ``Well, AARP told me I cannot have 
my own doctors.'' I said, ``Well, that is not accurate.'' I said, 
``Hold it.'' We just went through the entire plan. And she said, ``If 
that is the plan, I support it.''
  My conviction is that there are a lot of people right now who are 
being told a lot of things. I have had some of my colleagues go to 
nursing homes saying nursing homes will be closed next year. I have had 
some of my colleagues having press conferences with doctors saying they 
will not be able to have their doctor anymore. None of that is true.
  Now, what is my conviction in voting for this plan? We have worked on 
it for an extraordinarily long period of time. We have had the input of 
so many different people who have told us what they want in the plan, 
and that is what we are doing. I am absolutely convinced that next 
year, when people see this plan unfold, and, candidly, that is when I 
have to face the electorate. I would not want to be so stupid as to do 
a plan that is unfolded and then does not work. That does not make 
sense for our country and it certainly does not make sense for anyone 
that has to go back to the electorate.
  I am proud to defend and promote this bill when we debate it on 
Thursday, and I will be proud to defend it and promote it during the 
course of all next year. And I predict that people next year will say 
``What a great plan, and thank you for making sure that I could keep my 
existing health care, and if I want, I can change it and get other 
kinds of health care that meet more of my personal needs.''
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. I agree with the gentleman completely. I think 
5 years from today people will sit back and look at what we had in 
Medicare, the one-size-fits-all model, and people will say, ``Why did 
we wait so long before we made the changes in Medicare; before we gave 
choices?''
  We were criticized that, oh, we had one day of hearing. Wrong. We had 
hearing after hearing. We worked together in the Committee on the 
Budget. We had representatives from industry in and actuaries and 
different groups in at different committees. At least 38 hearings this 
year on Medicare. So we have had the official hearings, lots and lots 
of them. Plus, we have built on all the hearings we have had for years.
  I was lucky to serve on the health care task force that the gentleman 
from Florida [Mr. Mica] had for the past couple of years and, really, 
we had a lot of hearings and worked very hard on the plan there. So we 
listened. And when people came with ideas, we would go and say, ``Can 
we do this?''
  I will tell my colleagues some ideas that senior groups advocated. 
Any plan that is offered under our Medicare choice program has to offer 
benefits at least as good as current Medicare. So any plan they choose, 
they are going to have at least the same benefits or better.
  Mr. SHAYS. Let me get this straight. So if a private plan, when the 
private plan steps forward, they have to tell and make sure that their 
health care plan covers everything that Medicare presently does plus.
  I do not know if the gentleman from Florida was the one who had 
thought of the name of Medicare plus, but it is such an apt description 
of what our health care plan does. It allows them to have their 
existing health care plan plus.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. Right. Because the current Medicare system is 
going to continue. For those that want to stay with it, fine. But why 
not give those choices? As long as any choice they choose has benefits 
as good as the current Medicare, what is wrong with that?

                              {time}  2000

  We are hearing people that have these other options for people that 
are low income. There are some choices out there that are going to be 
less money. It is going to cost them less and they get more benefits, 
if we just allow the marketplace to help bring the costs under control.
  So, I am excited about the options, because we are going to give 
people the choice and they are going to say, ``Great, why did we insist 
that it could not be changed?'' It is exciting, what we are going to 
have, and I look forward to that.
  Let me talk about the some of the choices we have. We always start 
off with the fact that the current Medicare stays. The plan, basically, 
is that every year beneficiaries are going to get some forms and they 
get to choose. If they want to change plans, fine. If they do nothing, 
they stay in current Medicare. If they want to change, they get 
assigned a form to change. But if they want to stay in the current 
plan, they stay in it. It is automatic. Nothing to do but just stay in 
the plan and it continues just the way it is. There are no changes.
  But then we have these choices: Medical savings accounts, or the HMO-
like organizations, or the provider service networks. I think these 
provider service networks are going to be exciting in local 
communities. When you think about it, most health care is local. 
Ninety-eight percent of the health care we receive is our local 
doctors, our local hospital, our local home health care agency.
  Why not encourage the local doctors and the hospitals to go together 
and form their own program? As long as they meet the financial 
standards and they can buy reinsurance to provide those financial 
guarantees to make it sound, why not encourage those local hospitals 
and doctors to go together to form their group? They know their 
patients and communities best.
  What is good in Florida may not be necessarily good in Connecticut or 
Spokane or Arizona. I have hospitals with 80 percent Medicare 
populations because of my high senior population. They are going to be 
most interested in this.
  I am very concerned about Medicare. We cannot let that program go 
bad. We cannot let it go bankrupt. It is job in our community and for 
the senior citizens in our community. My own mother. We have choices 
that are going to bring it under control.

  We have had over a thousand town hall meetings and coming up with 
some great ideas. Our leadership and our committees have listened and 
put the ideas that our Members found in town hall meetings into the 
plan. One of the biggest things they talk about is waste, fraud, and 
abuse. We all agree that we need to get tough on waste, fraud, and 
abuse. This is where a lot of the money is.
  We believe that the marketplace is one area that is going to help 
drive that out. When we have competition for the business and we have 
to satisfy those patients, if they do not like it, they leave and go 
some place else.
  I have a restaurant. If customers do not like my restaurant, they can 
go down the street to the other restaurants. We have to keep people 
satisfied, and if the doctor is not doing a good job, the patients will 
go down the street. That is going to force it out.
  They have to efficiently provide the service at the same time. We are 
going to give seniors an option to help us root out the waste, fraud, 
and abuse. It is hard for the bureaucracy in Washington to discover all 
the waste in the system. It is hard to discover it out here, but 
patients come up to me all the time and tell me about the problems.
  One case was on network news. The lady was talking about being billed 
for an autopsy when she was in the hospital. That is a little bit 
extreme, but if they can locate the problems, let us give incentives to 
seniors to go out and find that waste, fraud, and abuse. So much of 
this is related to defensive medicine where the lawyers have driven up 
the cost. If we can do that, we can have benefits that are going to 
address that issue.
  I am glad that my colleague, the gentleman from Florida [Mr. Mica] is 
here, because he has a large number of seniors in his district just 
north of Orlando.
  Mr. MICA. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding. I cannot 
think of anyone in the Congress who probably represents more seniors 
than the gentleman from Florida [Mr. Miller], and who has been more 
active in trying to bring some fiscal responsibility to this Nation and 
also to the Congress.
  I am also pleased to join the gentleman from Connecticut [Mr. Shays]. 
I know many of the Members, particularly on this side of the aisle, and 
there is no one who has greater sense of compassion for the people of 
this country, their needs, and who cares more about human beings in our 
Nation. I have seen him work in this fashion and toward a compassionate 
solution to 

[[Page H 10134]]
many of the problems that confront us. I am extremely pleased to join 
both of my colleagues this evening to talk about Medicare reform.

  I have really remained somewhat silent. I have held my town hall 
meetings and looked at what the Republican proposal was. Tonight, I am 
here to strongly endorse the House Medicare reform proposals.
  I have looked at them. I have talked with our seniors. The nice thing 
about senior citizens is they were not born yesterday and they have 
seen a lot of water over the dam and heard a lot of rhetoric and they 
have been able to sort through some of the smoke and charges and 
rhetoric from the other side of the aisle.
  It is unfortunate that some of these people have not come up with 
what is a new idea, or some new solutions, in more than three decades 
to some of the mounting problems of this country. I am here tonight to 
say that, in fact, I think the greatest threat to our senior citizens 
is the national deficit and we must do something about it.
  I brought a couple of charts that I blew up. They are not very 
colorful, but one of them I wanted to show to our seniors and other 
Members tonight was the fact that our Federal budget in 1995 now is 
composed of $153 billion in entitlements. That is some of the welfare 
programs; $333 billion in Social Security, and that we hope will stay 
off budget and is not affected by anything that is proposed by our side 
of the aisle; Medicaid is another $90 billion; and you see Medicare 
$176 billion. Then you add in interest on the national debt and we are 
looking at somewhere around two-thirds to three-quarters of our entire 
expenditure for the Nation.
  What this says is that we must do something to bring some of these 
costs into check. The two biggest Government programs are the health 
care programs, Medicare and Medicaid. And even a simple mathematics 
computation will tell us, and the President's own trustees, and I 
brought a copy of that, that basically, that the trust fund is 
projected to become exhausted.
  What I said about simple math is we have been spending somewhere 
between 11 percent, 10.5 percent, and 13 percent per year. And simple 
math will tell us that in about 7\1/2\ years, if we continue at that 
rate, those huge expenditures will bankrupt the system and this chart 
again goes completely awry and we cannot bring the finances of this 
country into order.

  Now, what is even of concern not only to seniors, but what should be 
of concern to working men and women, is the country's population and 
its worker base actually starts to decrease. The ratio of active 
workers to Medicare beneficiaries in 1995, as you can see, is way up 
here on this chart: 3.3. And if you look at the year 2035, it is down 
to 20.
  So, what is going to happen is people who are now concerned about 
what is being taken out for Social Security and other taxes and 
Medicare, there will be a smaller pool to draw from. They will be able 
to take home very little and we will be taxing them to an unheard of 
degree. We will not be able to support the system.
  So, we did not create the mess. We may have been here while the mess 
was created, but, in fact, the other side has had control of both the 
House and the other body here. We see the same thing, whether it is the 
District of Columbia, it is Amtrak, whether it is Medicaid, whether it 
is the pension funds that I oversee for the Federal Government on the 
House side as chair of the House Civil Service Subcommittee. All of 
these programs are basically bankrupt. We have robbed from the cookie 
jars and now we have to face reality.
  But I think that the plan that we have come up with, you have heard 
my colleagues, Mr. Miller and Mr. Shays, outline some of the things 
that we have done. We addressed the real problems here.
  Everyone knows, every senior who has attended any town hall meeting 
that I have held has come forward and said, Mr. Mica, look at the 
waste, fraud, and abuse. Look how much I was charged for this 15 minute 
service. And they hold up a bill. Look how much this item cost, this 
overbilling.
  The Miami Herald in Florida did an article on Medicaid fraud and they 
estimated a $1 billion fraud and abuse of the system in just the State 
of Florida.
  Mr. SHAYS. The gentleman said 1 billion?
  Mr. MICA. Yes, $1 billion in waste, fraud, and abuse. And that is the 
cornerstone of the Republican plan, is to tackle some of that. 
Every senior has seen it when they have sat in an office and seen how 
the system is abused. When they have seen the billing, they see the net 
results.

  We had one individual come to a town hall meeting and talk about what 
he was forced to pay for a wheelchair. He could have purchased probably 
four or five wheelchairs for what the system required him, or the 
system and the taxpayers to pay for under this ridiculous system. So 
waste, fraud, and abuse are an important cornerstone.
  Medicaid is the same thing and we will not get into that tonight. but 
I sit on the subcommittee and we oversaw Medicaid with the gentleman 
from New York [Mr. Towns], and Medicaid in Florida is somewhere in the 
neighborhood of $1 billion in waste just by estimates of the General 
Accounting Office report that our subcommittee received last year. So, 
the cornerstone is doing something about waste, fraud, and abuse.
  Then, the second point is tort reform, and we know we have to face 
tort reform. We sent to the other body litigation and legal and tort 
reform that is so necessary, whether it involves medical expenses. And 
we see that again. Someone said a doctor charged so much for an office 
visit. And I checked with the doctor to see what his liability was. His 
premium is $50,000 a year. That is a thousand dollars a week. If you do 
100 visits, that is tacked on at the front end of every visit.
  We have to do something to bring some of the need for reform into 
place here as far as tort and liability reform. A second major point.
  And then again my colleagues have described the opportunity for 
choices. No one is forced out of Medicare. No one is forced into any 
plans under what we are proposing. Beneficiaries are given choices. 
What is wrong with choices? And choices that we offer will create 
competition. We think we will drive prices down. We are not positive it 
will work, but we think from the models that we have seen, from pure 
logic, that competition and also having various plans such as we have 
in the Federal Health Benefits Program that I oversee, also as chair as 
the House Civil Service Subcommittee, people will have the opportunity 
to choose from a variety of plans which will begin to be self-policing.
  And we have seen that. They bring down costs. They offer more options 
for folks. Things like medical savings accounts, which makes so much 
sense. What is wrong with providing an alternative to bankruptcy?

  It is all done, too, on the House side we say no change in 
copayments. No change in deductible and the premiums remain the same. 
Seniors can stay in Medicare. We can reform Medicare and also offer 
choices, and I think that makes sense. The most important thing is it 
helps bring the finances of the country and the system into some 
balance and we will not bankrupt the system or the country.
  Mr. SHAYS. When the gentleman said not positive it will work, I am 
absolutely as positive as I can be that this system will work 
extraordinarily well. The issue is will the savings be 270? 260? 280? 
How many people will choose private care? Will it be 24 percent that 
the Congressional Budget Office says? My judgment, based on all the 
people that we have interviewed, says that well more than 50 percent by 
the seventh year will have chosen private care. They are going to 
choose it because they get better opportunities.
  The certainty is no one can predict exactly what it will be in the 
seventh year. Is it 45 percent who are in private care? 60 percent? 70 
percent? That is the uncertainty. To what extent will that happen? But 
the one thing we are certain of, we are certain that we will provide 
$4,800, as we do not, per beneficiary. We are certain that we will 
provide $6,700 in the seventh year. That is a 40 percent increase per 
beneficiary.
  There is over $600 billion into the plan. Doctors will get more; 
hospitals will get more; all the people who provide quality service 
will get more, not less.

                              {time}  2015

  There is not anything like an increase in the number of hospitals and 


[[Page H 10135]]
doctors of 40 percent. So those who are in the system now that are 
being told that somehow they are going to have to make extraordinary 
sacrifices, it is just not accurate.
  Mr. MICA. Well, again, Mr. Speaker, nothing is certain. We are trying 
to do our best. We all have relatives. I have aunts who are on Medicare 
and trying to make if from week to week and month to month. We are 
concerned about these people. But our number one concern should be that 
we do not bankrupt the country. And simple math will show you that this 
whole structure we have created, this huge government program is going 
to collapse. Even the President's commission says that.
  So we are willing to work with the other side. We are willing to work 
with the administration. We are willing to work with people who have 
ideas. We have held hundreds of hearings on this and Members have held 
literally thousands of town hall meetings trying to bring together the 
best ideas into a plan that makes sense.
  The last thing we would want to do is hurt any senior citizen, 
someone in need or someone who needs that care. We think we can do a 
better job, and it is not necessarily throwing more money at the 
problem. That seems to be the only solution around here.
  Do we do a better job, as proposed by some folks on the other side of 
the aisle or the administration, just by ignoring the problem or 
letting the waste continue? Well, we will let the waste go to 89 
billion or let the waste go to 100 billion. This does not make sense. 
We need to make the system work and it should operate and function in a 
responsive, accountable fashion and give the people the choices that 
others have. Why confine them to one failed choice?
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. You are chairman of the committee that is 
involved in Federal employee health insurance. We looked at that. That 
is basically what we are going to offer senior citizens, a separate 
system that gives a choice just like all Federal employees have a 
choice.
  The Medicare program is a very complex system. If you are under 
Medicare you have to have three different insurance plans. You have a 
Medicare part A with one insurance company handling that. You have 
Medicare part B, which costs $46.10 that another insurance company 
handles, and then you have a Medigap policy. That is a complicated 
system. That is part of the inefficiencies of Medicare. And as a 
Federal employee, we only have one insurance plan. Anybody in the 
private sector has one insurance plan. That simplifies it. It is going 
to be so much simpler. The benefits are going to be better, and we are 
going to slow the rate of growth. I do not see where the argument is, 
why anyone could disagree. We have more money every year.
  Mr. SHAYS. I would love to just emphasize that point. I had more 
constituents who said, I want the same kind of choices you have, Mr. 
Congressman, hopefully they call me Chris, but the bottom line is, they 
are saying as a Federal employee I get to choose a wide range of 
programs. I have to pay 28 percent of health care costs. But I can 
choose any kind of program. I can choose one that is more expensive, 
less expensive and so on. I just want to emphasize, the gentleman from 
Florida is right on target. We are doing what our constituents have 
asked: Give us the same kind of choices you have.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. I am excited about the plan. I think we have 
been debating health care for almost 3 years. Now we are going to be 
able to do it. We are going to make the changes. We are going to give a 
better system to the seniors of our country. We are going to preserve a 
program that is so essential that we have to have it, and it is going 
to be there and it is going to be a much better plan. I do not 
understand what all this scare rhetoric is. It is politics. People do 
not want politics on this issue. It is too important for politics. I am 
getting tired of the scare tactics that keep coming in from the other 
side.

  Mr. HAYWORTH. I guess it is just a situation where Halloween came a 
little bit early and lasted for the better part of 3 months. The 
chances now for us to expand choices, to offer real reform rather than 
a Band-Aid approach for the American people and preserve this program 
so that we can take the steps necessary in later years, indeed to 
preserve it for future generations, it is summed up in the name 
Medicare Plus. And as both my colleagues from Florida, Mr. Speaker, 
have indicated, it offers choice. And as my good friend from 
Connecticut so articulately phrased it, what is wrong with having that 
type of choice. We will leave it to the American people who duly 
elected us to debate this issue and make the necessary changes to 
preserve, protect, and improve Medicare.
  Mr. SHAYS. I would just like to say, if I could, I compliment the 
President on one issue. He said to the American people, we need to deal 
with health care. It was a big wake-up call for a lot of Members of 
Congress. And what the President did is set in motion a number of us, 
if not all of us, giving this our number one priority and studying this 
issue tremendously. And so for that, it has been extraordinarily 
helpful because this is not something we just started working on.
  You started and others and my colleagues started well before the 
President asked, but the general bottom line is that we have been 
working on this health care issue for over 3 years now and we think we 
have come to a plan that the American people really will find is what 
they want.
  Mr. MICA. In closing, I just want to say again that I do not think 
there is any greater threat to senior citizens or all Americans, if 
this Congress does not act responsibly on the fiscal problems. And they 
are not just Medicare, it is a big item, but it is also providing jobs 
and opportunity for this and future generations. And some of that does 
involve changing our tax policy. So we are going to have to do all of 
this. I think if we work together we can do a better job and we do not 
have to scare anyone in the process. But I think all of us working 
together we can improve what we have.
  Mr. MILLER of Florida. Mr. Speaker, just in closing, for the seniors 
of this country, we have a good program. You are going to be excited by 
this program when it comes out next year. It is going to save a system 
that is essential to keep up.
  Do not get scared by the rhetoric out there. It is going to be a good 
program. You are going to be very pleased with it. It is going to 
continue to exist and that is what we are here for. We are going to 
preserve and protect Medicare.

                          ____________________