[Congressional Record Volume 141, Number 83 (Thursday, May 18, 1995)]
[Senate]
[Pages S6837-S6838]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]



                      RUBY RIDGE, ID, AND WACO, TX

  Mr. SPECTER. Mr. President, I have asked for a period of time to be 
reserved this morning to speak about the incidents at Ruby Ridge, ID, 
and Waco, TX. And there are a number of other Senators who have stated 
to me their intention to come to speak.
  My remarks at the moment will be relatively brief, and I want to 
thank my distinguished colleague from Colorado for yielding to me 
because he was on the floor before I arrived. It is a little unusual to 
find Senators here in advance of the opening of the Senate session. But 
Senator Campbell has time reserved as well.
  I hope to return later during the period for morning business to 
speak at greater length and also other Senators will come to speak on 
the subjects of Ruby Ridge, ID, and Waco, TX, as well. But I have a 
commitment to appear before the Finance Committee at 9:30 to testify on 
the flat tax.
  (Mr. DeWINE assumed the chair.)


                             Ruby Ridge, ID

  Mr. SPECTER. Mr. President, I think it is important that there be a 
positive showing by the Senate of our concerns about what happened at 
Ruby Ridge, ID, on August 21, 1992, and the days thereafter, and what 
happened at Waco, TX, on April 19, 1993, and the days which preceded to 
assure the American people that appropriate congressional oversight 
will occur and that there will be accountability at the highest levels 
of the U.S. Government.
  The House of Representatives has scheduled a hearing on the events at 
Waco, TX, and an announcement has been made by the distinguished 
chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee that the Judiciary Committee 
will hold hearings on Waco, TX, and Ruby Ridge, ID, as well.
  As I said last week on the Senate floor, it is my hope that we will 
do these hearings sooner rather than later because of my strong view 
that the American people need reassurance that there will be proper 
oversight. I say that I do not know what the answers are to the 
questions which have been raised, but I do see many important and 
profound questions. And I do think it is absolutely necessary that a 
full effort be made with congressional oversight to find answers.

[[Page S6838]]

  Mr. President, with respect to the incidents at Ruby Ridge, ID, back 
on August 21, 1992, I have talked to FBI Director Freeh; FBI Deputy 
Director Potts; Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Director John 
Magaw; Jerry Spence, Esq., the attorney who represented Mr. Randy 
Weaver in the criminal proceedings in the Federal court; Randy Dade, 
the county attorney of Boundary County; and have attempted contact, 
traded calls with Special Agent Glenn, who is the agent in charge in 
Salt Lake City.
  My preliminary findings--and these are obviously preliminary--show me 
that there are very important questions which require congressional 
oversight on the appropriate use of force in taking someone into 
custody and on the initiation of investigations by Federal agencies 
like the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
  In discussing the incidents at Ruby Ridge, ID., and in taking them up 
in a preliminary way with the Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, 
Tobacco, and Firearms, John Magaw, there is a serious question as to 
how that matter all began.
  Last Saturday, when I was in Des Moines, IA, I had occasion to talk 
at some length with Mr. Randy Weaver, who was tried and acquitted on 
murder charges. I had a chance to talk to his daughters Sarah and 
Rachel, ages 19 and 13. His 3-year-old daughter Elisha was present as 
well but was not in a position to shed any light on what occurred.
  Picking up just one strand in the few moments that I am able to speak 
on the issue now, Mr. Weaver recounted how he had been contacted by a 
man who had asked him about acquiring sawed-off shotguns. Mr. Weaver 
advised that he thought that the individual was an undercover agent for 
the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. And that was later 
confirmed by Director Magaw, who told me that it was a confidential 
informant who had gone to contact Mr. Weaver on the subject of 
purchasing sawed-off shotguns.
  When that matter was tried, according to the information given to me 
by Mr. Magaw, Mr. Weaver was acquitted, on what Mr. Magaw said were 
borderline entrapment circumstances. When I questioned Mr. Magaw about 
what he meant by borderline entrapment--I know when I talk about this 
with the Presiding Officer, the distinguished Senator from Ohio, Mr. 
DeWine, knowing what entrapment is, it is really not borderline; it is 
either entrapment or not. And if it is a matter of acquittal, there is 
no entrapment.
  For those who do not know the details of entrapment--and it is a 
complex situation--that is when the idea comes from law enforcement and 
it is planted in the mind of the individual who ultimately does the 
conduct, undertakes the action which is the cause of an indictment.
  I think we need to focus on the specifics as to what happened there 
to give congressional oversight from some of us who have had more 
experience along that line so that we do not become engaged in the law 
enforcement agency, the Government itself, setting up circumstances 
which begin the chain of conduct which results in the indictment and 
look what happened beyond that in the Weaver matter because the law 
will not support a conviction if it is entrapment by the law 
enforcement agencies.
  I am going to have to speak at length to this later, Mr. President. 
But one other matter that I wanted to touch upon in the Ruby Ridge 
incident was the question of the use of force and the question of 
whether it was excessive. I do not want to come to any conclusions. 
There has been considerable comment about whether the rules of 
engagement were changed and whether that was what led to the censure of 
Special Agent Larry Potts, who has since become the Deputy Director of 
the FBI. And in my discussions with Mr. Potts, which were relatively 
limited because we were scheduled to meet at a later time when he will 
have an opportunity to have his attorney present, Mr. Potts advised me 
that there had been no change in the rules of engagement. And that 
raises a very fundamental question as to the conduct and the use of 
force by Federal law enforcement when Mr. Weaver was taken into custody 
in a very sad situation where a U.S. marshal was killed, where 14-year-
old Sam Weaver was killed, and where Mrs. Randy Weaver was killed. That 
is a tough subject but certainly deserves and requires our attention.
  I touch upon those matters only briefly at this point, Mr. President, 
because I had said I would be making an inquiry, a preliminary inquiry, 
and I wanted to report on that. We had scheduled the hearings initially 
for the Terrorism Subcommittee for this morning, and those have been 
deferred until the full committee will take up the matter at a later 
date.
  I had wanted to touch on the Waco incident again to at least refer 
preliminarily to the report by Dr. Allen Stone, of Harvard, who was a 
panelist selected to help in that inquiry, but since it is almost 9:30 
and I am due in the Finance Committee--and I have already taken the 
time of my distinguished colleague from Colorado--I am going to 
conclude these very brief remarks with the hope of being able to come 
back a little later in morning business to talk additionally, to report 
further on my preliminary inquiry. I thank the Chair and I again thank 
Senator Campbell.
  Mr. President, before my colleague starts, may I just add, perhaps 
unnecessarily, that I reserve the remainder of my time.
  I thank the Chair and yield the floor.
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. Under the previous order, the Senator from 
Colorado [Mr. Campbell] is recognized to speak for up to 15 minutes.
  (The remarks of Mr. Campbell pertaining to the introduction of S. 817 
are located in today's Record under ``Statements on Introduced Bills 
and Joint Resolutions.'')
  Mr. DOLE. Was leader time reserved?
  The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator is correct, leader time was 
reserved.


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