[Congressional Record Volume 141, Number 25 (Wednesday, February 8, 1995)]
[House]
[Pages H1390-H1400]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]
PERSONAL EXPLANATION
Mr. FLAKE. Mr. Speaker, because of an unavoidable detainment on the
way from the White House, I missed rollcall vote no. 101. Had I been
present, I would have voted ``yes.''
{time} 1340
amendment offered by mr. traficant
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Traficant: Page 3, line 14, strike
the close quotation mark and the period which follows.
Page 3, after line 14, insert the following:
``(d) Limitation.--This section shall not apply with
respect to a search or seizure carried out by, or under the
authority of, the Internal Revenue Service.''
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, I want this amendment to be understood.
I want it to be debated.
The House has evidently reviewed behavior. I want all the Members in
the back to hear this amendment, and I want your vote. The American
people want your vote.
Evidently, we have discussed conditions under which some of us may,
in fact, in some areas support the bill and in other areas where
Congress has some significant reservations.
My amendment is not reactive. My amendment is strictly prevention.
Now, I would like to urge the Members of Congress to consider that an
ounce of prevention is worth a whole pound of cure.
My amendment states that this section shall not apply with respect to
a search or seizure carried out by the Internal Revenue Service.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have an Internal Revenue Service that has
taken license and has, in fact, intruded the kitchens and the family
rooms of the American people on many cases. Those cases are now
legendary.
In the matter of Alex and Kay Council of North Carolina, their
accountant advised them under a windfall profit they made on the sale
of a business that there was a legitimate tax shelter for a specific
investment; they took it. The IRS found difficulty and ruled that the
tax shelter was not allowed.
And the case was finally adjudicated, the notice of deficiency was
sent to the wrong address. The IRS said they have no bounds by the
Congress of the United States to prove they made a proper notice.
In the case of Alex and Kay Council, Alex Council, completely
frustrated, finding no other ways to fight this large agency that he
reported to that was out of control, took his life and left
instructions how his life insurance policy will allow for, in fact,
that death benefit on his suicide, and how she could apply that
insurance policy, that life insurance policy, to fight the Internal
Revenue Service, and she did.
It has come to the point where the Internal Revenue Service is
certainly charged with an important task by our Government, Mr.
Chairman, but Congress, through a lack of oversight, has allowed this
agency to become a little intrusive, even to the point where they enjoy
the only exemption under the burden-of-proof statutes of the Bill of
Rights which I want to commend the majority party for giving an
opportunity for a hearing for that in the future.
My amendment basically says, ``Look, the IRS has so much intrusive
power now that to give any more further license would be not in good
conscience of the Congress of the United States of America,''
understanding the legendary behavior of this agency.
{time} 1350
Now I am not talking about FBI, DEA, ATF, that I recommend to the
Congress that all those agencies be put up under one. There is no
coordination, as a former sheriff, there is no, or very little,
coordination of them anyway. I would not be surprised to have the CIA
and DEA thrown up under the FBI, too, with an international section.
But I am not talking about that now. I am talking about a taxpayer
who is at the mercy, some of them have taken their own lives, and
Congress has been silent for too long.
Now, yes, we have taken these technicalities and these pursuits of
criminals, and we have weighed them heavily on the side of the
criminals, and there is a debate in this House that perhaps was long
overdue regardless of how you will vote on this issue.
But what the Traficant amendment says is this is not normal business,
even under this particular law that is being debated.
If we continue to open up and give more license to an agency that has
already turned their back on the Congress, I believe we will fail each
and every one of our constituents here today. I do not know how many of
your constituents are going to have their door kicked in or are going
to be blown up in Waco, TX, and I certainly do not like that, and I
agree there should be a hearing on what happened to the Weaver family
in Idaho and what happened out there in Waco.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore (Mr. Burton). The time of the gentleman from
Ohio [Mr. Traficant] has expired.
(By unanimous consent, Mr. Traficant was allowed to proceed for 4
additional minutes.)
Mr. TRAFICANT. But what I am talking to you about today is your
mother, your father, your grandparents, your children, your neighbor,
your mailman, the truck drivers, the clearly, and every business, big
or small, in your district. Every American that is afraid, and even
afraid to say they are afraid, for every American who has been
intimidated in some back room, it is legendary.
So I am not here today citing abuses, and I am not taking off on the
IRS. What I am saying to you, though, is there is a reasonable level of
prevention that is necessary when you establish law. And there is a
prevention element that necessitates this amendment.
I am asking for your vote. The American people are looking for some
support from the Congress of the United States, and the American people
in poll
[[Page H1391]] after poll say they cannot recognize and understand or
fathom the thought of Members of Congress wanting to be anonymous,
having made the statement that, ``It does not pay to go after the
IRS.'' If you are a Federal judge, why should you? That is a lifetime
job. Why get the IRS mad?
``If you are a Member of the Congress, why get the IRS mad?'' Well,
damn it, let me tell you the way it is: I am mad as hell. I am prepared
not to stand for it any longer, and I think every one of your
constituents feels that way. And I think there are some justifiable
reasons to vote for this amendment.
So I am asking the gentleman from West Virginia, the gentlemen from
Connecticut and Vermont, the gentlewoman from Colorado, the general,
the gentleman from California [Mr. Condit], the gentleman from Florida
[Mr. McCollum], the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Hyde]--because you can
stand up and probably muster up enough partisan votes to defeat this--I
am asking you not to do that and to make a sincere effort to keep this
amendment in conference. I believe the American people deserve this.
The IRS has taken too much license with regulations that they have
turned their back on already.
So with that, I am going to ask this House to give a vote of
affirmation. I want to place on the record through the legislative
history that I do not want it to be just an exercise on the floor of
Congress, that I do want a commitment on the vote of this Congress, if
it is an affirmation that, as a tenacious bulldog, we will save that
amendment and keep it in that final law if in fact this becomes final
law. No reason to obstruct; that is not my purpose. I believe it makes
good sense. I urge the Members of the Congress of the United States to
do what is right today and to vote for this amendment.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word.
Mr. Chairman, I must reluctantly oppose today this amendment offered
by the gentleman from Ohio.
The reason why is not because I do not think there are problems with
IRS abuses. The Internal Revenue Service is well known to have had its
share of those abuses. I am not here to debate the merits or not of
that question.
But I oppose this amendment because I think, just as on the previous
amendment offered here on the floor, there is a great deal of
misconception about what the effects of the proposed bill and the law
changes that we are offering in this bill that underlies the debate
today does and does not do.
I do not believe that there is any sense whatsoever in making
exceptions for one Federal law enforcement agency or another in respect
to what we are doing today that would make any difference at all in the
conduct of how they carry out the their business.
In fact, the very point and essence of a lot of debate over this
exclusionary rule exception is to make clear that there is absolutely
no change in the constitutional requirements that say that we shall not
engage in any unlawful search and seizures if we are police of any
type; there is nothing in this legislation today that is a bit of a
retreat from that, no relaxation of the general principle of excluding
from evidence anything where a police officer, knowingly or by
anybody's objectively reasonable test of that, as a judge in a court
decides that they violated the Constitution in their proceedings and in
their actions.
The whole point of this today is to say, ``Look, if you have done a
search, whether it is with a warrant or without a warrant, and you with
a reasonable belief really believe, Mr. Police Officer of any type,
that what you were doing was legitimate and not a violation of
someone's constitutional rights, if you believe you followed all the
steps in the rules and you got a warrant and you thought the warrant
was good and the warrant was necessitated or you thought that you were
making a search because on its plain face that that search was
authorized by the clear precedents of the law in cases where warrants
are not required under the fourth amendment of the Constitution, if you
really, according to the judge's view in a case when he is deciding
whether to admit evidence or exclude it, if he says you exercised a
reasonably objective belief that what you were doing was right,'' then
why exclude the evidence? Why exclude the evidence, whether that
evidence is gathered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation or the IRS
or the Drug Enforcement Administration or anybody else?
Everybody should be treated the same. The evidence of somebody's
crime, if they committed a crime or the evidence that would go before a
court or a jury to decide whether a crime has been committed, should be
allowed in in every single case if that is valid evidence on the merits
of the case itself, and let the court decide the guilt or innocence of
somebody unless--unless the exclusion of that evidence would in some
way, in some way deter a police officer, IRS officer, a Drug
Enforcement Administration officer, FBI officer from doing something he
should do. And there is absolutely nothing whatsoever suggested here by
what we are doing today that would modify that in any way, that
principle.
Mr. HYDE. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McCOLLUM. I would be glad to yield to the chairman, the gentleman
from Illinois [Mr. Hyde].
Mr. HYDE. I thank the gentleman from Florida for yielding to me.
Mr. Chairman, I just want to say, implicit in this amendment as well
as in the last one, is a denigration of the Federal bench; an assertion
that they are incapable of judging whether an acquisition of evidence
was in good faith, by an objectively reasonable standard; or whether
the public, the long-suffering, victimized public, is better served by
the admission of this evidence of guilt or not.
But to carve out exceptions for various Federal agencies not only is
insulting to those agencies--and that may or may not be true, but this
is not the place to direct those insults--but it also demeans the
bench, the Federal bench. I do not think we should overlook that.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Reclaiming my time, Mr. Chairman, I believe the
gentleman is right. I would concur wholeheartedly.
The whole point of the exercise today in passing this legislation is
to give relief to the American public in situations where
technicalities have been throwing out evidence where people otherwise
should have been given the chance and court should have been given the
chance to convict the bad guys.
It is not to try to open the door in any way to reduce or relax the
standards of the fourth amendment protections against unlawful search
and seizures. It does not do that. What is good for the goose is good
for the gander, what is good in one Federal district circuit court
should be good in another one in this country. There should be
uniformity. There is not presently.
{time} 1400
Mr. Chairman, for us to come out and make exceptions for one Federal
agency or another is just plain nonsense, so I urge a ``no'' vote on
this amendment. I know it is offered in good faith, but I urge ``no''
vote.
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word.
(Mr. CONYERS asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of the amendment offered
by the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Traficant].
Mr. Chairman, I say to the Members, this amendment, the closer you
scrutinize it, the more you can get to like it, and I would like to ask
my colleagues to look very carefully at this amendment.
Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Ohio is known for his very strong
comments and commentary on the floor, but, if my colleagues examine
this amendment, they will begin to see what I see in here, that he is
attempting a carve-out on the McCollum bill, H.R. 666.
My first amendment to the bill was an attempt at a codification of a
U.S. Supreme Court decision, a very modest one, when we had begun, and
they are both working toward the same objective.
Now the chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary, the gentleman
from Illinois [Mr. Hyde], said that this vote, a vote for this
amendment, would denigrate the Federal bench. The Federal bench never
gets to hear about these
[[Page H1392]] cases of doors being kicked down or IRS harassing people
who are trying to settle their accounts.
Now in my office I have constituents who have been trying to settle
their accounts, admittedly delinquent, and if there is somebody here
that has never heard of this, I say to them, you can share some of my
case load with me. They have been trying to settle their accounts, and
they will get a call from the agent at IRS telling them that, if they
do not pay in full, immediately, in 30 days, they are going to padlock
their dentistry office or they are going to padlock their business,
which of course is the only way that they can possibly ever pay back on
installments. I have had that repeatedly brought to my attention, so
much so that the senior Senator from Michigan has worked with me on
hearings in previous Congresses and meetings with IRS officials in our
region.
So, on behalf of all African-Americans and working class people who
cannot retain a CPA or an attorney, Mr. Chairman, this carve-out to
limit this untrammeled authority for an agent to objectively use
reasonable good faith when he decides whether he is going to padlock
someone or kick their door down is a very late-coming one, and I am
sorry that I had not risen to this occasion earlier. The IRS cannot be
allowed this kind of activity.
Mr. Chairman, I hope this will spur an investigation in the
appropriate committee, and I hope it is the Committee on the Judiciary,
but at the same time let us recognize that if BATF can evade this
amendment by joining with the FBI or the DEA, would it not be logical
that we should extend the carve-outs to those other agencies as well,
because if we do not, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will be getting
around it by merely cooperating with someone else, including, perhaps,
the IRS, perhaps not.
But this amendment on its face, Mr. Chairman, is one that merits our
colleagues' support. It speaks to a history of misconduct and
wrongdoing, and I think that it is a commendable amendment, and as the
ranking member of the Committee on the Judiciary, I am very proud to
attach my support to it.
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the requisite
number of words.
Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of this amendment and yield to the
distinguished gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Traficant].
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman from Louisiana
[Mr. Fields], and I listened to the debate of the distinguished
chairman and subcommittee chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary,
and I saw that we just passed a pretty much politically charged vote,
and I must say the American taxpayers do not have too many powerful
lobbyists down here. Most people are afraid of the IRS, and most
average Americans are more or less at their mercy.
But there is an incident, just occurred here this past month out in
the district of the gentlewoman from California [Ms. Eshoo], and the
IRS basically came to the office of one of the dentists in her
community and said they were with the IRS, and they wanted to see the
doctor. They were asked if the doctor was expecting them, and they
said, ``No, not at all.''
Mr. Chairman, in the midst of the day's business, the dentist
office's business, the IRS completely disrupted it, had taken that
dentist away from where he is doing significant work on the dental
needs of one of his patients. The IRS has almost limitless powers.
There are very few opportunities for the Congress of the United
States to lend a helping hand to these taxpayers. So, Mr. Chairman,
yes, I could see where a lot of people crossed over and voted on that
issue that surrounds guns, but there is just not enough advocates for
the American taxpayer, there is no powerful support for the American
taxpayer, and that is why I say to my colleagues, to the Congress, that
the last center of possible support, the last board of grievance and
appeal, is the Congress of the United States of America, and if the
Congress of the United States of America can make exception for guns,
and the popularity of that issue, and the politics of that issue, then
Congress could do the right thing and support this amendment that in
fact safeguards the interests of all of our taxpayers, each and every
one of them.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the
requisite number of words.
Mr. Chairman, I am not going to give the same speech I gave the last
time, although it would be equally applicable in the context of this
amendment. But we are making a mockery of the Constitution, and we just
did it again when we passed the last amendment. It is not that the
amendment was bad, but now we have got a different standard applying to
one law enforcement agency, constitutional standard presumably, than we
have applying to all other law enforcement agencies, and I have got
nothing against the Internal Revenue Service, but it seems to me that
the Internal Revenue Service makes more sense to be exempted than the
ATF, or whatever it was called, because there are less circumstances
under which they need to go and kick somebody's door in than the other
agency.
The point is it is the underlying bill that is the problem here. It
is not exempting ATF, or the Internal Revenue Service, or the
Immigration and Naturalization Service, or the city of Atlanta, or New
York, or the FBI. The standard ought to be the same, and that standard
was articulated in 1791 when we passed the first 10 amendments to the
Constitution. That is the standard that ought to apply, and that is the
problem that we are into here, and that is the reason that we are
getting all these inconsistencies, because what we did in 1791 was to
make one consistent standard, and what my colleagues on the other side
are trying to do is to get at the bad guys.
{time} 1410
Well, who are the bad guys?
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. I yield to the gentleman from Ohio.
Mr. TRAFICANT. With that, let me say the gentleman makes a point
about bad guys, and this bill is targeted toward bad guys. Keep in mind
that much of the activity covered by this amendment covers civil
procedures. They are not coming for bad guys. They are using an awful
lot of law and a lot of leniency under that law in civil proceedings,
and many times the burden of proof is even on the taxpayer to prove
they are innocent.
This is an unbelievable tenet of opposition. Clearly if there is an
exception, it should deal with the preponderance of the facts that the
civil proceedings involved here are clearly outside of the view of what
the main thrust of this bill deals with. You are concerned about
criminals. We are talking about license in civil process. I think that
goes too far, which lends to a rational for support for the amendment.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. Mr. Chairman, reclaiming my time, the
gentleman makes the very point that I am trying to make. This is not
about bad guys and good guys. What we do when we subvert the
Constitution of the United States to try to get some bad guys is that
we subvert the Constitution of the United States for the good guys
also. We cannot afford to do that. The rules cannot be different for
one group and another group, because then we have to decide which one
falls into each of those groups.
Mr. Chairman, I want to call upon my colleagues to withdraw this bad
bill. Bet us out of this pointing of fingers and talking about who is
bad and who is good. All of the American citizens are good, until the
law says they are bad. We cannot let the police officers on the street
make that determination, whether they are with the Internal revenue
Service, the ATF, the Atlanta police office, the D.C. police office,
whatever. This is about the Constitution. This is not about bad guys
and good guys.
Mr. WISE. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the requisite number of
words.
Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of the Traficant amendment. I do want
to say and to note that while various agencies such as the BATF are
being asked to abide by higher standards, this is not a commentary on
the thousands of good, hard-working employees of many of those
agencies, the DEA, the FBI, the BATF and the Internal Revenue Service,
because indeed there are thousands of well-meaning, hard-working
personnel, many of them in the enforcement divisions.
[[Page H1393]] But unfortunately, occasionally you have a bad apple,
and that bad apple can spoil the whole barrel and can be the one that
brings that agency, despite all the hard work that goes in, can bring
that agency and its employees into disrepute.
So what this tries to do and what the fourth amendment tries to do is
say we do not want to make it harder for those genuinely doing their
work. We also want to make sure there cannot be the occasional abuse,
or at least we try to limit it as much as possible.
The distinguished chairman of the full committee, the gentleman from
Illinois [Mr. Hyde], pointed to Federal judges as being the safeguard
and said why would you denigrate Federal judges? No one is denigrating
the Federal judiciary. As the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Traficant]
pointed out, many of these cases do not even get there.
You are trying to devoid those cases getting to the Federal
judiciary. You are trying to have the occasional Federal judicial
officer have in the back of their mind this is something you don't do,
there are sanctions, and it is something prohibited from the beginning
in the mental process. So that is one reason.
The second thing is you want to set a standard so you do not get
these problems to the judiciary, and that standard is what is trying to
be set here. In the case of the IRS there have been occasional abuses.
There are a lot of people working hard and doing the processes of
raising the revenues of our country the way they should, but there have
been occasional abuses. I have one in my district as well that we have
worked on for 2 years now.
But you are saying because there can be the chance for the abuse and
because it does not handicap the ongoing work of that agency 99 percent
of the time,
then indeed they should abide by that higher standard. This body has
already said there should be a higher standard in the case of BATF. The
IRS, which reaches every one of our constituents in some way, needs to
have that higher standard, not to denigrate the work of the IRS or the
men and women of the IRS, but to say where there are occasionally a few
bringing down the reputation of an agency, that will be reined in and
this Congress will demand that they abide by that higher standard. That
is what this amendment is about, and I would urge its adoption.
Mr. TORRICELLI. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the requisite number
of words.
Mr. Chairman, I rise to share in the sentiments of the gentleman from
North Carolina that it is not a question of this amendment or any
exceptions. The problem is the undermining legislation.
Any nation, Mr. Chairman, can fight crime, can secure its streets and
its cities, if it is prepared to compromise the rights of its citizens.
No totalitarian or authoritarian government has ever feared the
problems of crime on its streets.
But the goal has never been simply to secure the streets. It is also
to have its people secure in their homes, and from their government,
not just from criminals.
So the United States has always been different. We have sought to
protect the innocent while we were prosecuting the guilty. That balance
has made the United States unique. It is also now at question.
The underlying legislation, if it means anything, would violate the
sanctity of the home, the privacy of the family, the right to have a
wall of protection in the front door of your own house between you and
the government, to ensure that the only judgment is not the police
officer as to whether or not your home should be violated, but a judge
issuing a warrant on probable cause. The very Constitution of the
United States. And the irony of it is, is that this was one of the
motivating factors that led to our own revolution, the insistence on
the part of the British Government of breaking down the doors and
violating the property rights of our citizens 200 years ago.
But to add insult to injury, now we are creating two different levels
of privacy and property rights. If your violation is for tobacco,
alcohol, or on guns, your rights will be secured. The BATF will not get
in your home, because the gun lobby would have it be so. But if you are
a citizen of no particular offense, your wall of privacy is being
lowered. What a statement to the American people, and what a violation
of the historic trust and commitment of this institution to our
constitutional principles.
Mr. Chairman, our Republican colleagues in the last election have had
every reason to be proud. They won a tremendous victory. But they did
not receive a mandate to change the Constitution of the United States,
to rearrange its powers, or to make our people less secure from a
government that would abuse their rights.
Mr. Chairman, I cannot claim to ever have been a conservative Member
of this House, but I have always respected tenets of Republican
philosophy, limited government, power in the hands of people,
controlling the excesses of government authority. Allowing a government
to enter a home or seize property without warrant, expanding the police
powers of the government, is an invitation to abuse.
{time} 1420
It is not simply a violation of some of our historic commitments.
Ironically, it is a departure from the conservative philosophy of the
very Members who have now won electoral control of this institution.
Mr. Chairman, our leaders may have failed us in protecting us in
recent years from crime and the problems of our country, but it is our
leaders who have failed, not our Constitution. If the country is in
need, it is our leaders who should change, not our Constitution.
Because if, my colleagues, we succeed in defeating crime on the
streets at the cost of criminal activity by our government, then we
have achieved nothing.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the
gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Traficant].
The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the ayes
appeared to have it.
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote, and pending
that, I make the point of order that a quorum is not present.
The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman insist on his point of order?
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Chairman, I withdraw my point of order and my demand
for a recorded vote.
So the amendment was agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to the bill?
amendment offered by Mr. fields of louisiana
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Fields of Louisiana: Page 2, line
10, after ``United States'' insert ``if the evidence was
obtained in accordance with the fourth amendment to the
Constitution of the United States''.
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. Mr. Chairman, yesterday we debated for some
time the Watt-Fields amendment as it relates to the fourth amendment of
the Constitution. This amendment is similar to that amendment, but, Mr.
Chairman, I want to make a couple of comments about the amendment
before I proceed.
First of all, under the fourth amendment of the Constitution, it says
in no uncertain terms that ``the right of the people to be secure in
their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches
and seizures shall not be violated.''
It does not say ``should not be violated'' or ``ought not be
violated.'' It says in no uncertain terms that it ``shall not be
violated.''
The fourth amendment to the Constitution further states, Mr.
Chairman, that no warrant, not some warrants, not two or three
warrants, but it says ``no warrant shall,'' again, the Constitution
deals with not the permissive language but the mandatory language,
``shall issue but upon probable cause supported by an oath of
affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and
the persons or things to be seized.''
Now, I did a little further research, Mr. Chairman, and Members, to
get a good understanding of what shall actually means. According to the
Webster dictionary, shall is very simple. Shall means will have to.
Shall means must. Shall means used in laws to express what is
mandatory.
So I rise today, Mr. Chairman, to suggest to the House that this
amendment is a very basic amendment. It
[[Page H1394]] simply says that any evidence obtained ``in accordance
with the fourth amendment of the Constitution.''
If we are going to pass this legislation and allow law enforcement
officers to go out into the world and break down people's homes without
a warrant and say, I am operating with reasonable expectations or
reasonable belief that there is something wrong taking place in the
household, then we shoot a big bullet in the center of the fourth
amendment to the Constitution. Not only that, Mr. Chairman, we
basically silence the fourth amendment of the Constitution.
So if Members support the fourth amendment of the Constitution, and I
think we all do, because we all by law, when we took the oath of
office, said we would, we would support this amendment. It is a very
simple amendment. If we want someone, a law enforcement officer, to be
able to walk into our constituent's home by breaking down the doors,
showing, flashing his or her badge or badges and saying, I am the law
enforcement officer of this particular city, move over, I am going to
search all of your personal effects, then vote against this amendment.
It is very simple. Nothing complicated about it, nothing difficult
about it.
But if Members want that law enforcement officer to go to a judge
which is clothed with the responsibility of looking at the probable
cause to see if there is enough evidence to support a warrant to be
issued to search a person's home, then vote for this amendment. It is a
very simple amendment, nothing complicated about it.
If we want to go back to the western days, where people break down
doors and take people's assets and nothing is done about it, then I
would suggest that Members not vote for this amendment.
Let me make another point, Mr. Chairman. Someone made the statement
that, well, if someone breaks in a person's home and they find no
evidence and they have not violated any law, then no harm is done. I
beg to
differ with my colleagues on that.
There is a lot of harm that is being done when you break down a
person's home and go through all their personal effects, finding
evidence or not finding evidence. You have violated somebody's right to
privacy. That is one of the most sacred amendments to this
Constitution. And to allow law enforcement officers to do that and then
exempt one or two agencies to me is asinine, unconscionable,
unbelievable, to say the least.
So I would certainly urge my colleagues, in the interest of justice
and fair play, please, the worst thing we want to do this session of
Congress is to violate our own contract, our own Constitution, the one
we held our hands up before the American people and said we will
uphold. This bill destroys the fourth amendment of the Constitution.
There is no question about that.
I want to be able to leave this institution, leave this Congress and
go home tonight and have a sense of security in my own home and not
worry about some Rambo cop busting down the door and saying this
Congress gave them the right to do it. That is wrong. There is not a
Member on this side or the other side that can argue the fact that this
amendment does not do that.
Now, they may argue, well, if it is unconstitutional, the courts will
hold it to be unconstitutional. Why would we pass a law that we know
good and well is unconstitutional. Why would we even opine the thought
that the American people ought not have the rights that are afforded
them under the Constitution of the United States of America.
I beg of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, if they really
want to do something to secure people in their homes, yes, we have a
crime problem in America. There is no question about it. There is a
crime problem in my own district, in my own State, but it is not to the
extent that we ought to take away people's individual constitutional
rights.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word.
Mr. Chairman, I think the gentleman is onto something we all would
agree with in principle, but I think how he has crafted this amendment
makes it fatally defective or at least it makes it ambiguous enough
that this side cannot accept it.
What I have stated in the past and did yesterday to the gentleman
from Louisiana as well as to others is that I would have no problem
accepting and our side would have no problem accepting what was printed
in the Record as amendment No. 1 by the gentleman from Michigan [Mr.
Conyers] that would read at the end of the bill ``nothing in this
section shall be construed so as to violate the fourth article of the
amendments to the Constitution of the United States.''
That would be perfectly acceptable. This particular amendment being
placed where it is in the context of the lines that read, evidence
which was obtained as a result of a search or seizure shall not be
excluded in a proceeding in a court of the United States, and then with
these words ``if the evidence was obtained in accordance with the
fourth amendment of the Constitution of the United States,'' and then
goes on and on and on and leaves the clear implication that there can
be no exclusionary rule because the very nature of the rule is to apply
in situations where there has been a violation of the fourth amendment.
That is why we need it. That is why we need a good faith exception to
this whole process.
It would in essence nullify the good faith exception in warrant
cases, in my judgment.
{time} 1430
We would have an exclusionary rule that excluded it clearly from day
one, and there would be no exceptions to it. One could go on and read
the rest of it, since it is placed in the middle of it and nothing is
stricken, as saying that it is then further modified. But I would
suggest that the fact that there was such ambiguity here, courts could
interpret this any number of ways, that it makes no sense to posture
this in the location the gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. Fields] that I
presume in good conscience is attempting to do.
I do not understand why we do not offer the original language of the
gentleman from Michigan [Mr. Conyers] if the gentleman wants to do
that, at the end of the legislation where he places it that does what I
think the gentleman wants us to do.
Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that this amendment be withdrawn and
that the other one be substituted in its place, but I am not going to
offer anything out here today to do it. I am going to oppose this
amendment in its present form, but I would accept, as I say, the words
``Nothing in this section shall be construed so as to violate the
fourth article of amendment of the Constitution of the United States''
if it were offered at the end of the bill, as the gentleman from
Michigan [Mr. Conyers] does in what he printed in the Record a few days
ago.
Without that, Mr. Chairman, I just think the gentleman created an
ambiguity that could defeat the whole good faith language that the
courts already adopted for warrant searches, searches with warrants, as
well as searches without them. For that reason, Mr. Chairman, I am
opposed to the amendment.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the
requisite number of words.
Mr. Chairman, almost 24 hours ago I stood in the well of this House
and I talked about an amendment that would take us back to the fourth
amendment to the Constitution. Colleagues on the other side said ``No,
we cannot support you, because you strike the rest of our bill out. If
you would just craft this in such a way that you did not strike the
rest of the bill, this would be acceptable to us.''
They voted against the wording of the fourth amendment to the U.S.
Constitution.
Mr. Chairman, almost 24 hours later, we are back here having
essentially the same debate, different language. This language does not
strike one word out of the underlying bill. All it says is it is going
to be subject to the fourth amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
However, again, my colleagues are back saying ``Oh, no, picky, picky,
picky. I can't agree with that either, it has to be drafted some other
way.''
Mr. Chairman, this is an open rule we are operating under, they say.
Anybody who wants to come in and offer an amendment can offer an
amendment to
[[Page H1395]] say whatever they wanted to say. Yet, my colleagues on
the other side say ``Oh, no, you have not been able to draft it in such
a way that is satisfactory to us yet. There is some language out there
somewhere that will satisfy us,'' but 24 hours almost has passed and
they have not drafted it. All they want to do is come back in and say
``Oh, no, your language is not good enough.''
Mr. Chairman, Madison and Webster drafted the language of the fourth
amendment, or whoever the Founding Fathers were who were working on
that particular portion of it. I wish that these new masters of the
Constitution, these master draftspersons who drafted this artistic
Contract With America, would draft some language that would be
satisfactory to them, that would not trample on the Founding Fathers'
language.
It is not doing my constituents or the American people any good to
say ``Oh, no, this is not good enough, we need a comma here or a period
there, or a T crossed here or an I dotted there.'' If they believe in
the Constitution, draft the language, give it to us. I invited them to
do it yesterday. I have not seen it yet.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. I yield to the gentleman from Florida.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, the language I do not have to draft. I
read it to the gentleman, and it is printed in the Congressional
Record.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. Mr. Chairman, I would say to the
gentleman, offer it. I reclaim my time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman will yield, I will do
it.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. If the gentleman offers it, if he votes
this one down, let him offer some amendment that will make this
constitutional, and then maybe we can talk about supporting it, Mr.
Chairman.
However, do not come in here and say ``Oh, no, yesterday you struck
the rest of my bill.'' This does not strike one iota of his bill, yet
it is still not satisfactory to him. If he wants something, draft it
and put it in and let us talk about it. That is what this House is all
about. That is what we came here for. But do not be picayune with me.
Mrs. COLLINS of Illinois. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the
requisite number of words.
(Mrs. COLLINS of Illinois asked and was given permission to revise
and extend her remarks.)
Mrs. COLLINS of Illinois. Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of the
amendment.
Mr. Chairman, I also rise in vehement opposition to H.R. 666, the
exclusionary rule, and urge my colleagues to reject such a blatant
attempt to eradicate one of the most fundamental constitutional
protections afforded all Americans, the prohibition against
unreasonable searches and seizures by the Government that is so
precisely spelled out in our fourth amendment.
This misguided bill highlights the GOP's disconnect with the American
people, and it is just one more example that the leadership's so-called
contract is, to borrow a phrase from well-known cereal advertisers,
chock full of nuts.
Under this bill, as astonishing and unbelievable as it may seem,
evidence that is illegally obtained by law enforcement officials
without the aid of a search warrant would be admissible in Federal
trial proceedings.
If this not a complete and total affront to both the spirit and
intent of the founding document of our great democracy, I do not know
what is.
Let me give the Members an example of what I am talking about. About
a year or so ago in my district the BATF and some local law enforcement
officials entered into some HUD-owned Chicago Housing Authority
property in my district in the city of Chicago and knocked down the
doors. They said they were looking for guns.
What happened as a result of that? They found a number of assault
weapons that they were looking for, but in addition to that, they went
into the homes of a number of people, and they did not find any weapons
there. What they found instead was terrified children.
Imagine, here you are in your home, little kids running around in
there, somebody comes in and knocks on your door, bursts their way in
with ``ATF'' on the back, with ``Chicago Police'' on their shoulders,
et cetera, guns all ready to be drawn, little kids sitting there
screaming, and law enforcement officers are running through people's
houses, ransacking through their dresser drawers, through their
closets, up under their beds and anyplace else they thought there might
be a weapon to be found.
Mr. Chairman, this is a tremendous amount of terror that you can give
anybody, but particularly to young children. To have this kind of thing
happen without a search warrant, without cause, was beyond all realism
whatsoever. I just could not believe it was happening, but it did
happen. It happened in my district of Chicago.
Mr. Chairman, we are talking about a crime bill here, yes, but we are
also talking about crimes that the Federal Government and others can
perpetrate on people. It is not right for the police to do that. It is
not right for the IRS to do that. It is not right for agencies to do
that.
If it is a crime, it is a crime for them to commit a crime as well,
without probable cause.
Mr. Chairman, the U.S. Supreme Court has continually and consistently
refused to adopt such sweeping exceptions to the exclusionary rule as
those that are embodied in this legislation before us today.
H.R. 666 would not only render the exclusionary rule, and therefore,
the most basic rights of all of our citizens, moot, but also provide a
disincentive for police officers to follow the dictates of the law.
By allowing courts to admit evidence gathered in the case of
warrantless searches, this body would be giving law enforcement
officials the mere option of following legal search and seizure
requirements or not.
In fact, there would be much less incentive on the part of officers
to even obtain warrants, knowing that the courts would be lenient, as
far as they are concerned.
As the high court has so eloquently stated, and as so many of my
colleagues have so eloquently stated on this floor yesterday and today,
a strong exclusionary rule is required to enforce the right of all
Americans ``to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects
against unreasonable searches and seizures.''
{time} 1440
Sweeping exceptions to this rule would, quoting again the Supreme
Court, ``permit that right to remain an empty promise,'' an empty
promise.
Mr. Chairman, the absolute last thing I would want to see is our
Constitution reduced to an empty promise.
It strikes me as peculiar that the GOP, the Republican majority, will
shroud itself in the second amendment as a defense to the weak, tired,
worn-out line that all Americans have an unrestricted right to own a
deadly arsenal of assault weapons, but then will turn right around and
support legislation such as H.R. 666 which so obviously guts the fourth
amendment's civil liberties protections upon which all our citizens
have come to rely.
Mr. Chairman, it is becoming increasingly clear that my Republican
colleagues are quick to invoke the constitutional principles and the
wisdom of the Founding Fathers whenever it suits their political whims
but completely disregard it when the rights of average Americans like
my constituents and like yours, Mr. Chairman, and all the rest of our
constituents are at stake, as in this case. This is no way to legislate
and the citizens of the country I believe clearly see through this
charade.
I would again urge my colleagues to vote no on this turkey, thereby
preventing unfounded invasions of privacy and constitutional rights
violations against all our constituents. We cannot and simply must not
allow this 100-day agenda to undo 200 years of democracy.
amendment offered by mr. mccollum as a substitute for the amendment
offered by mr. fields of louisiana
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment as a substitute for
the amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. McCollum as a substitute for the
amendment offered by Mr. Fields of Louisiana: Page 3, line
12, strike ``Rule'' and insert ``Rules''.
Page 3, line 14, after ``proceeding.'' insert ``Nothing in
this section shall be construed
[[Page H1396]] so as to violate the fourth article of
amendments to the Constitution of the United States.''.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, this does what we said we would do all
along if the gentleman from Michigan [Mr. Conyers] had offered it. It
is what he had printed in the Record a couple of days ago.
It provides what seems to me to be on its face the clear language
that any of us would know is true and, that is, that nothing in this
legislation that we are proposing in any way violates the fourth
amendment to the Constitution. We have no problem with that. That is
all that this amendment says. It does not say anything more, it does
not say anything less. It should not be construed as saying anything
more or anything less, but it is placed in simple language, it is
placed at the end of the bill. It does not mess up the rest of it. It
keep the good faith exception expansion that we want in this bill
intact.
Mr. Chairman, I would encourage my colleagues to accept this, I hope
the gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. Fields] could accept it and we could
move on.
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McCOLLUM. I yield to the gentleman from Louisiana.
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. Can the gentleman explain what is the
difference between the two amendments, because it appears, based on his
dissertation, there is no difference between the amendment that I have
and the substitute amendment that he just introduced.
Would the gentleman please explain?
Mr. McCOLLUM. If I can reclaim my time, I would be glad to. There is
no real difference in intent. I am sure you intend to do exactly as I
have suggested. It is just that where you had placed what you had
written could be construed in my judgment and by others over on this
side of the aisle in a way that you did not intend, in a way that would
actually end, by some court interpretation in the future, those kinds
of good-faith exceptions we already have in search warrant cases. I do
not think you intended that. If you do it this way, then there is no
ambiguity, there is no question for the courts to interpret. It is just
a lot cleaner.
That is what I think the gentleman wants and I do not have a problem
with what you want to do if that is what you want, as I believe it is.
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McCOLLUM. I yield to the gentleman from Michigan.
Mr. CONYERS. I am very appreciative of the accord here. Could this be
known as the McCollum-Fields substitute amendment?
Mr. McCOLLUM. I would be delighted if it were known as the McCollum-
Fields-Conyers substitute amendment.
Mr. CONYERS. I did not suggest that.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Michigan wrote it, so
I would be glad to give him credit.
Does anyone else want time? Otherwise, I hope the gentleman would
accept this.
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield
further?
Mr. McCOLLUM. I yield to the gentleman from Louisiana.
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. I have not had an opportunity to see the
amendment, but it is the exact amendment that we had on this side of
the aisle?
Mr. McCOLLUM. Reclaiming my time, it is the exact amendment that was
published by your side of the aisle under the name of the gentleman
from Michigan [Mr. Conyers] as amendment No. 1 in the Congressional
Record of February 6, 1995.
Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana. I thank the gentleman.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McCOLLUM. I yield to the gentleman from North Carolina.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. Mr. Chairman, I was just looking at the
language, and it refers to section rather than bill. There are several
sections in this bill, and what I am trying to be clear on is that your
language applies to the entire bill, not just to one particular section
of the bill.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Well, this entire bill refers to an entirely new
section of the code, section 3510, and I think that that is the key to
this and that is what this applies to. That is virtually the entire
bill. What we talking about is amendment chapter 223 of title 18 and
this is an entirely new section, section 3510, we are creating by this
piece of legislation. That is what this applies to, the entire new
section.
Mr. WATT of North Carolina. I thank the gentleman for yielding.
Mr. SCHUMER. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that on all
subsequent amendments to this one, for the remainder of the bill, there
be a time limit of 5 minutes of debate on each side.
The CHAIRMAN. On this amendment and any subsequent amendments
thereto?
Mr. SCHUMER. Not on this amendment but on any subsequent amendment.
The CHAIRMAN. And on all amendments thereto?
Mr. SCHUMER. Correct.
The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from
New York?
There was no objection.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the
gentleman from Florida [Mr. McCollum] as a substitute for the amendment
offered by the gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. Fields].
The amendment offered as a substitute for the amendment was agreed
to.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the
gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. Fields], as amended.
The amendment, as amended, was agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to the bill?
amendment offered by mr. serrano
Mr. SERRANO. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Serrano: Page 3, line 14, strike
the close quotation mark and the period which follows.
Page 3, after line 14, insert the following:
``(e) Limitation.--This section shall not apply with
respect to a search or seizure carried out by, or under the
authority of, the Immigration and Naturalization Service.''.
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from New York [Mr. Serrano] will be
recognized for 5 minutes on his amendment, and a Member in opposition
will be recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. McCOLLUM. I claim the time in opposition, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Florida [Mr. McCollum] will be
recognized for that purpose.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New York [Mr. Serrano].
Mr. SERRANO. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Chairman, as we can notice by the amendments that have been
submitted here today, there are two issues that are being discussed.
One is the belief by many of us that in fact the bill presented by the
majority strikes down most if not all of the protections of the fourth
amendment. But in addition, some agencies have been singled out by
these amendments because they are, unfortunately, agencies with either
a reputation of misusing their power or, and in most cases, a
reputation of striking fear into the hearts of hard-working, law-
abiding American citizens and in many cases, or in most cases, both.
There is no reason that one can imagine why an American citizen or a
resident of this country should be afraid of any of its Federal
agencies. Yet that is the case in so many instances. That is why today
you have seen people discussing so many different agencies.
The INS is, in many neighborhoods in this country, at the top of the
list of the kind of an agency that can strike fear into the hearts of
people. Because when the INS decides that it has cause to believe that
there is illegal immigration taking place or has taken place in a
certain neighborhood, the INS does not stop to ask questions and to
determine who they should go after and who should be protected under
our Constitution. What the INS usually does is walk into a neighborhood
where the color of the people's skin or the language they speak appears
to indicate that illegal immigrants could be in fact living in that
community, and they will tear down a business door, they will tear down
a home, they will tear down the privacy of a family or an
[[Page H1397]] individual searching, if you will, searching for illegal
immigrants.
We have seen this throughout our communities, most recently in the
northern Manhattan section of Washington Heights where reports took
place, where bodego owners, grocery store owners were illegally
confronted by the Immigration Department in a desire to determine
whether or not there were illegal immigrants, undocumented immigrants,
in that community.
So for anyone in my community, whether they were born American
citizens or not, this Federal agency is one that strikes fear into our
hearts. And incidentally, someone may say, ``Well, if you've got
nothing to hide, you should not be afraid.''
{time} 1450
That is not the case. If you look like a certain person, if you have
the first name of Jose, you can be sure that you will run into the INS
at one time in your life and they will not give you any way to explain
yourself. They will just ask you some very hard questions.
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. SERRANO. I yield to the gentleman from Michigan.
Mr. CONYERS. If the gentleman will yield, Mr. Chairman, the
Government Operations Committee had hearings on the INS in the last
Congress with harassed African-American and other minorities and women
officers, and the gentleman's amendment and the discussion that
surrounds it flows exactly with what we heard. I would refer every
Member here to the Government Operations hearings on INS in the 103d
Congress. It is a very dangerous instrumentality.
There are a lot of good people. I love the commissioner, the
director, but it still is not under control and the gentleman's
amendment is very good and I accept it on this side.
Mr. SERRANO. I thank the gentleman very much.
The gentleman's comments obviously fall right to the point that there
has been ample proof that this Federal agency has not carried out its
duties in a proper way, and when they do not carry them out in a proper
way, I think it becomes the role of this body to protect our citizens.
I think that is a point that should be made.
In many instances the violation of rights and privileges are
committed upon citizens of the United States, the illegal searches, the
fear, the attacks, the midnight raids, the middle of the night raids,
the lack of respect for individual rights.
If the folks on the other side really believe that their bill is a
good bill, and if they believe that they have not in fact trampled, as
I believe, on the fourth amendment, there should be no problem in
accepting this amendment. This amendment simply will strengthen their
belief that the fourth amendment is still intact, and I would urge a
``yes'' vote on this amendment.
The CHAIRMAN pro tempore (Mr. Hobson). The gentleman from Florida
[Mr. McCollum] is recognized for 5 minutes in opposition to the
amendment.
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may
consume.
Mr. Chairman, I cannot accept this amendment. I did not accept the
other two amendments that were passed that exempted a whole host of
Federal law enforcement officials from the opportunity to have the
Federal court exclude evidence that they obtain which may be in
violation of the fourth amendment but was obtained without any intent
on their part to violate, without any knowledge they were doing it, and
with no good reason that I can think of for us to be excluding it from
court proceedings where convictions could otherwise be obtained for bad
guys and people who have committed major crimes in this country. There
is no reason to want to exempt these folks.
We are not doing anything with this bill that would in any way reduce
protections individuals have from illegal searches and seizures. We may
all be angry at some of these agencies for one reason or another,
because they have overstepped their bounds. I do not think there is a
single police agency in this country that has not had somebody at some
point overstep their bounds in the history of these agencies. It
probably has happened more than once for most of them, and in some too
frequently, and nobody condones that, not good police, not you, not the
President, not the Governors of the States, nobody condones them
overstepping the bounds and violating the protection of our citizenry
under the fourth amendment.
The question is what is the best way to proceed to correct those
problems, and it certainly is not in keeping out evidence of criminals
that will prohibit their being convicted when they should be, when the
evidence is perfectly good itself.
Why do we want to prohibit somebody from going to jail who has
committed a bad crime in the name of stopping something that is not
going to be stopped? If a police officer, INS or anybody else does not
know they are doing anything wrong and a judge decides that they do not
know, and they could not know, and there is no reason for a reasonable
person to ever know they did anything wrong, then there is no deterrent
whatsoever to the behavior they have done. They are going to do it
every time. We need to find other ways to stop it, but the only way we
want to stop is where it is antagonizing being done in violation of the
Constitution and trampling, and as the Founding Fathers wanted us to do
to protect it. It makes no sense to penalize the general public of the
United States by allowing more criminals out on the streets as are now
being allowed on technicalities by the situation that exists today.
We need to carve out an exception to the exclusionary rule that is
even broader than the courts have accepted today. That is what this
bill does. Where a police officer of any type, be he INS or otherwise,
acts in good faith and believes, and reasonably and objectively by a
judge's decision believes, and is determined to believe that what he is
doing is right and correct and not violative of the fourth amendment,
and why in the world would anybody want to exclude any evidence? The
gentleman has every right to protest INS like others protested other
agencies of the Federal Government.
I submit this bill is not the place for that. It does not do us any
good and it does damage to the fundamental underlying principle of this
bill, this effort to create a better protection of our American
citizenry.
I urge a ``no'' vote.
Mr. SERRANO. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McCOLLUM. I yield to the gentleman from New York, the author of
the amendment.
Mr. SERRANO. With all due respect to the gentleman, the reason for
the protection that I try to put forth, a reason that the gentleman may
probably never experience or has ever experienced in his life, is the
fact that there are some Federal authorities that upon looking at some
American citizens determine, assume that that person does not belong in
this country, simply by the way they look, simply by their first name
or their last name or the fact that they may not have fully mastered
the English language. This simply says give me the protection that I
deserve as an American citizen.
Mr. McCOLLUM. If I can reclaim my time, I would simply say to the
gentleman no, fortunately I have not had that personal experience. I do
not doubt for a moment that goes on but that is not a remedy for that.
What the gentleman is doing makes an exception to this bill of a
whole entire agency and their efforts at law enforcement. That makes no
sense whatsoever. It undermines the purposes of this bill and it is not
in the interests, as far as I am concerned, of the general public where
we are trying to get more convictions where somebody commits a crime.
And I do not care, if they have committed a crime, we ought to get them
convicted and we have the evidence to do it. We have no business
excepting an agency, particularly INS, from that, particularly where we
have alien smuggling and all kinds of stuff the Immigration Service is
having to investigate. I would suggest it is not in the best interest
of aliens, legal aliens coming here to have this provision, and those
who would be citizens and would make great contributions to this
country, it is not in their best interests to allow the criminals in
the world to
[[Page H1398]] prey on those who are unfortunately in their midst.
So I urge a rejection of this amendment, and I yield back the balance
of my time.
The CHAIRMAN. All time has expired.
The question is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from New
York [Mr. Serrano].
The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the ayes
appeared to have it.
recorded vote
Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
A recorded vote was ordered.
The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 103,
noes 330, not voting 1, as follows:
[Roll No. 102]
AYES--103
Barrett (WI)
Becerra
Berman
Bishop
Bonior
Boucher
Brown (CA)
Brown (FL)
Bryant (TX)
Clay
Clayton
Clyburn
Coleman
Collins (IL)
Collins (MI)
Conyers
Coyne
DeFazio
Dellums
Dingell
Durbin
Engel
Evans
Farr
Fattah
Fields (LA)
Filner
Flake
Foglietta
Ford
Furse
Gejdenson
Gephardt
Green
Gutierrez
Hastings (FL)
Hefner
Hilliard
Hinchey
Jackson-Lee
Jefferson
Johnson, E. B.
Kennedy (MA)
Kennedy (RI)
Kildee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lofgren
Martinez
Matsui
McDermott
McKinney
Meehan
Meek
Menendez
Mfume
Miller (CA)
Mineta
Mink
Moakley
Mollohan
Nadler
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pastor
Payne (NJ)
Pelosi
Rangel
Reynolds
Richardson
Rose
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanders
Schroeder
Scott
Serrano
Skaggs
Stark
Stokes
Studds
Thompson
Thornton
Torres
Torricelli
Towns
Tucker
Velazquez
Vento
Visclosky
Volkmer
Ward
Waters
Watt (NC)
Waxman
Williams
Wise
Woolsey
Wynn
Yates
NOES--330
Abercrombie
Ackerman
Allard
Andrews
Archer
Armey
Bachus
Baesler
Baker (CA)
Baker (LA)
Baldacci
Ballenger
Barcia
Barr
Barrett (NE)
Bartlett
Barton
Bass
Bateman
Beilenson
Bentsen
Bereuter
Bevill
Bilbray
Bilirakis
Bliley
Blute
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Bono
Borski
Brewster
Browder
Brown (OH)
Brownback
Bryant (TN)
Bunn
Bunning
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Camp
Canady
Cardin
Castle
Chabot
Chambliss
Chapman
Chenoweth
Christensen
Chrysler
Clement
Clinger
Coble
Coburn
Collins (GA)
Combest
Condit
Cooley
Costello
Cox
Cramer
Crane
Crapo
Cremeans
Cubin
Cunningham
Danner
Davis
de la Garza
Deal
DeLauro
DeLay
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Dickey
Dicks
Dixon
Doggett
Doolittle
Dornan
Doyle
Dreier
Duncan
Dunn
Edwards
Ehlers
Ehrlich
Emerson
English
Ensign
Eshoo
Everett
Ewing
Fawell
Fazio
Fields (TX)
Flanagan
Foley
Forbes
Fowler
Fox
Frank (MA)
Franks (CT)
Franks (NJ)
Frelinghuysen
Frisa
Frost
Funderburk
Gallegly
Ganske
Gekas
Geren
Gibbons
Gilchrest
Gillmor
Gilman
Gonzalez
Goodlatte
Goodling
Gordon
Goss
Graham
Greenwood
Gunderson
Gutknecht
Hall (OH)
Hall (TX)
Hamilton
Hancock
Hansen
Harman
Hastert
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Heineman
Herger
Hilleary
Hobson
Hoekstra
Hoke
Holden
Horn
Hostettler
Houghton
Hoyer
Hunter
Hutchinson
Hyde
Inglis
Istook
Jacobs
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (SD)
Johnson, Sam
Johnston
Jones
Kanjorski
Kaptur
Kasich
Kelly
Kennelly
Kim
King
Kingston
Kleczka
Klink
Klug
Knollenberg
Kolbe
LaFalce
LaHood
Lantos
Largent
Latham
LaTourette
Laughlin
Lazio
Leach
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Lightfoot
Lincoln
Linder
Lipinski
Livingston
LoBiondo
Longley
Lowey
Lucas
Luther
Maloney
Manton
Manzullo
Markey
Martini
Mascara
McCarthy
McCollum
McCrery
McDade
McHale
McHugh
McInnis
McIntosh
McKeon
McNulty
Metcalf
Meyers
Mica
Miller (FL)
Minge
Molinari
Montgomery
Moorhead
Moran
Morella
Murtha
Myers
Myrick
Neal
Nethercutt
Neumann
Ney
Norwood
Nussle
Ortiz
Orton
Oxley
Packard
Pallone
Parker
Paxon
Payne (VA)
Peterson (FL)
Peterson (MN)
Petri
Pickett
Pombo
Pomeroy
Porter
Portman
Poshard
Pryce
Quillen
Quinn
Radanovich
Rahall
Ramstad
Reed
Regula
Riggs
Rivers
Roberts
Roemer
Rogers
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Roth
Roukema
Royce
Salmon
Sanford
Sawyer
Saxton
Scarborough
Schaefer
Schiff
Schumer
Seastrand
Sensenbrenner
Shadegg
Shaw
Shays
Shuster
Sisisky
Skeen
Skelton
Slaughter
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Solomon
Souder
Spence
Spratt
Stearns
Stenholm
Stockman
Stump
Stupak
Talent
Tanner
Tate
Tauzin
Taylor (MS)
Taylor (NC)
Tejeda
Thomas
Thornberry
Thurman
Tiahrt
Torkildsen
Traficant
Upton
Vucanovich
Waldholtz
Walker
Walsh
Wamp
Watts (OK)
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
White
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson
Wolf
Wyden
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
Zeliff
Zimmer
NOT VOTING--1
Dooley
{time} 1516
Messrs. MONTGOMERY, ACKERMAN, and de la GARZA, Mrs. LOWEY, and Mr.
GONZALEZ changed their vote from ``aye'' to ``no.''
Ms. FURSE and Mr. FIELDS of Louisiana changed their vote from ``no''
to ``aye.''
So the amendment was rejected.
The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
Ms. PELOSI. Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong opposition to H.R. 666,
the Exclusionary Rule Reform Act. While its supporters would have us
believe that this bill will simply broaden a previously existing
exception to the fourth amendment, it will, in reality, seriously
damage a constitutional amendment that has protected Americans from
unreasonable searches and seizures for over 200 years.
Simply put, Mr. Chairman, the fourth amendment places a check on the
ability of the Government to arbitrarily search a person's home or
person by requiring that a search warrant be issued by a neutral and
detached magistrate. Since 1914, the Supreme Court has held that
evidence obtained as the result of an illegal search must be excluded
at trial.
Mr. Chairman, H.R. 666 removes this important constitutional
safeguard by virtually eliminating the warrant requirement that the
American Colonists demanded of the Constitution's Framers following
their occupation by British soldiers. In spite of these origins, the
fourth amendment has, in no way, lost its historical or legal
relevancy. We need only look at the documented abuses from law
enforcement jurisdictions all over the country to reaffirm the inherent
protective value of the fourth amendment.
If by congressional mandate, the courts begin to admit evidence
gathered in good faith but without a search warrant, there would be
much less incentive for the police to obtain search warrants at all--
thereby undermining the fundamental protection of the fourth amendment
to the Constitution.
Mr. Chairman, the exclusionary rule is what protects all Americans
against unreasonable searches and seizures and the invasion of privacy
by law enforcement officers. It does not undermine the ability of the
police to enforce the law; indeed, it has been part of the training
given to all Federal law enforcement agents since 1914. The Directors
of the FBI have endorsed the exclusionary rule and have stated that the
rule does not hinder the FBI's work.
Mr. Chairman, the exclusionary rule works because it creates an
incentive for law enforcement officers to know legal search and seizure
standards. By passing this bill, law enforcement will actually have an
incentive not to know the law.
In the rush to pass their legislative agenda in the first 100 days,
the authors of this bill are asking us to sacrifice the constitutional
safeguards that have protected all Americans for 207 years.
I urge all of my colleagues to oppose this attack on the fourth
amendment and vote ``no'' on H.R. 666.
Mr. STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong opposition to H.R. 666,
the Exclusionary Rule Reform Act of 1995. Let me state from the
beginning that I recognize the challenge we face in curbing crime in
our Nation. In fact, I have been a longstanding advocate for
substantial congressional action to reduce and prevent violence and
crime. Nonetheless, Mr. Speaker, I cannot support this measure before
us today because the very belief upon which our judicial system was
created--protection of individual constitutional rights balanced with
society's right to be free from harm--has yet to be achieved for many
Americans.
Over the years, I have been a staunch supporter of crime control
measures. I have patrolled our streets as part of Neighborhood Watch
efforts. I have seen firsthand the effects that drugs and violence have
had on our neighborhoods. Before I came to Congress I
[[Page H1399]] was blessed with the opportunity to practice law in this
great Nation. I have litigated civil rights issues before many courts.
One of my most memorable experience is having argued Terry v. Ohio, 392
U.S. 1 before the U.S. Supreme Court in 1968. Because of these
experiences, I feel that I cannot support the unbalanced approach that
H.R. 666 represents.
While I agree that strong measures must be taken to curb the crime
epidemic, I do not believe that such measures should undermine any
individual's basic rights and constitutional liberties. My duty as a
Member of Congress requires that I act in the best interest of the
people I represent and in the best interest of the U.S. Constitution I
have sworn to uphold. We cannot, and should not, in an attempt to
facilitate the prosecution of alleged criminals, be unfaithful to our
responsibility to act in the best interest of the American people by
disrespecting the founding document of this Nation--the fourth
amendment of the U.S. Constitution. This shortsighted legislation will
not only compromise Americans' constitutional rights, but will actually
do very little to reduce crime or enhance the prosecution of crimes.
Mr. Chairman, the exclusionary rule was created in Weeks v. United
States, 232 U.S. 383 (1994), where Justice William Day's opinion for a
unanimous court concluded that the use of illegally obtained evidence
by the Government was a clear ``denial of the constitutional rights of
the accused'' (p. 398). The exclusionary rule was fashioned by the
Supreme Court as the enforcement mechanism of the fourth amendment,
which protects citizens against unreasonable searches and seizures. The
exclusionary rule embodies our national principle of respect for the
fundamental inalienable rights of all our citizens under the U.S.
Constitution.
Since 1914, the exclusionary rule as we know it today is a mere
shadow of the rule envisioned in the Weeks opinion. Over the years, the
U.S. Supreme Court has established exceptions to the rule that have
permitted more and more illegally obtained evidence to be used against
accused criminals. One of the most prominent exceptions to the
exclusionary rule is the good faith exception created by the court in
United States v. Leon, 468 U.S. 897 (1984).
We must all remember that the fourth amendment, working in
conjunction with the exclusionary rule, represents significant
constitutional protection for anyone accused of a crime. As you know,
being accused does not mean that you are guilty. Yet, the drafters of
this current legislation, in their haste to sweep up criminals, have
presented a law that treats the accused as if they were guilty. No
American deserves to be treated as a criminal without the benefit of a
trial.
Contrary to the assertions of the proponents of this legislation, the
application of the exclusionary rule almost never prevents the
prosecution of a case against an accused. A 1983 study by Thomas Y.
Davies, entitled, ``A Hard Look at What We Know (and Still Need To
Learn) About the `Costs' of the Exclusionary Rule'' (1983), estimates
that only 0.6 to 2.35 percent of all felony arrests are lost as a
result of this rule. Thus the challenge to the exclusionary rule based
on the risk of lost arrests is fueled by an ideological agenda that is
hostile to our freedoms ensured by the fourth amendment.
Mr. Chairman, the bill before us today, the Exclusionary Rule Reform
Act of 1995, codifies the good faith exception to the exclusionary
rule, but will also make it more broad. Such an abdication of
congressional responsibility will certainly undermine many of our most
important efforts to protect the Constitutional rights of all
Americans.
The stated purpose of the Exclusionary Rule Reform Act if to provide
a statutory basis for the good faith exception in cases of searches
with and without warrants. Under the good faith exception, evidence
obtained in a search or seizure that violates constitutional
protections would not be excluded if ``the search or seizure was
carried out in circumstances justifying an objectively reasonable
belief that it was in conformity with the fourth amendment'' to the
Constitution.
The legislation to limit citizens' fourth amendment rights warps the
Constitution to such an extent that the constitutionality of this
provision is seriously in question. While I agree that Congress should
continue to make significant strides to reduce crime, this proposed
measure goes well beyond the legitimate objective of crime prevention
and prosecution enhancement. In fact, this bill is specifically
designed to inhibit the constitutional rights of the people of America
by violating their fourth amendment rights. Justice Douglas eloquently
warned us of the dangers involved in compromising the fourth amendment
in his dissenting opinion in Terry versus Ohio:
To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to
take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a
step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness.
But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the
people through a constitutional amendment.
Millions of arrests and searches are carried out by police each year
in the United States. The fourth amendment, with its ban on
unreasonable searches and seizures, is the constitutional provision
that, more directly than any other, governs police conduct. This
amendment is designed to preserve the most cherished values of a free
society by striking a fair balance between society's demand for order,
and individual rights.
It is my belief that our judicial system's major focus should be to
protect its citizens from crime and violence. However, as a nation, we
cannot afford to compromise our Constitutional rights in exchange for
unconstitutional, excessive police state tactics. We all have an
obligation to uphold the Constitution and protect the rights of all
Americans to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. I urge my
colleagues to uphold our Constitution, protect the American people, and
vote down this unconscionable invasion upon one of their most priceless
constitutional guarantees.
The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further amendments, under the rule the
Committee now rises.
Accordingly, the Committee rose; and the Speaker pro tempore (Mr.
Hobson) having assumed the chair, Mr. Riggs, Chairman of the Committee
of the Whole House on the State of the Union, reported that that
Committee, having had under consideration the bill (H.R. 666) to
control crime by exclusionary rule reform, pursuant to House Resolution
61, he reported the bill back to the House with sundry amendments
adopted by the Committee of the Whole.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under the rule, the previous question is
ordered.
Is a separate voice demanded on any amendment?
If not, the Chair will put them en gros.
The amendments were agreed to.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. The question is on the engrossment and third
reading of the bill.
The bill was ordered to be engrossed and read a third time and was
read the third time.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. The question is on the passage of the bill.
The question was taken; and the Speaker pro tempore announced that
the ayes appeared to have it.
recorded vote
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Speaker, I demand a recorded vote.
A recorded vote was ordered.
Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the request for a recorded vote.
{time} 1520
The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Hobson). The Chair advises the gentleman
from Michigan [Mr. Conyers] that a recorded vote has already been
ordered.
The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 289,
noes 142, not voting 3, as follows:
[Roll No. 103]
AYES--289
Allard
Andrews
Archer
Armey
Bachus
Baesler
Baker (CA)
Baker (LA)
Ballenger
Barcia
Barr
Barrett (NE)
Bartlett
Barton
Bass
Bateman
Bentsen
Bereuter
Bevill
Bilbray
Bilirakis
Bliley
Blute
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Bono
Borski
Brewster
Browder
Brownback
Bryant (TN)
Bunn
Bunning
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Camp
Canady
Castle
Chabot
Chambliss
Chapman
Christensen
Chrysler
Clement
Clinger
Coble
Coburn
Collins (GA)
Combest
Condit
Cooley
Costello
Cox
Cramer
Crane
Cremeans
Cubin
Danner
Davis
de la Garza
Deal
DeLay
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Dickey
Dicks
Dooley
Doolittle
Dornan
Doyle
Dreier
Duncan
Dunn
Edwards
Ehlers
Ehrlich
Emerson
English
Ensign
Everett
Ewing
Fawell
Fields (TX)
Flanagan
Foley
Forbes
Fowler
Fox
Frank (MA)
Franks (CT)
Franks (NJ)
Frelinghuysen
Frisa
Funderburk
Gallegly
Ganske
Geren
Gilchrest
Gillmor
Gilman
Goodlatte
Goodling
Gordon
Goss
Graham
Green
Greenwood
Gunderson
Gutknecht
Hall (TX)
Hancock
Hansen
Harman
Hastert
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Heineman
Herger
Hilleary
Hobson
Hoekstra
Hoke
Holden
Horn
Hostettler
Houghton
Hunter
Hutchinson
Hyde
Inglis
Istook
Jacobs
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (SD)
Johnson, Sam
Jones
Kanjorski
Kasich
[[Page H1400]] Kelly
Kim
King
Kingston
Klink
Klug
Knollenberg
LaHood
Largent
Latham
LaTourette
Laughlin
Lazio
Leach
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Lightfoot
Linder
Lipinski
Livingston
LoBiondo
Longley
Lucas
Luther
Manton
Manzullo
Martini
Mascara
Matsui
McCollum
McCrery
McDade
McHale
McHugh
McInnis
McIntosh
McKeon
McNulty
Meyers
Mica
Miller (FL)
Molinari
Montgomery
Moorhead
Moran
Morella
Murtha
Myers
Myrick
Nethercutt
Neumann
Ney
Norwood
Nussle
Ortiz
Orton
Oxley
Packard
Pallone
Parker
Paxon
Payne (VA)
Peterson (FL)
Peterson (MN)
Petri
Pombo
Pomeroy
Porter
Portman
Pryce
Quillen
Quinn
Radanovich
Rahall
Ramstad
Regula
Riggs
Roberts
Roemer
Rogers
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Roth
Roukema
Royce
Salmon
Sanford
Saxton
Scarborough
Schaefer
Schiff
Seastrand
Sensenbrenner
Shadegg
Shaw
Shays
Shuster
Sisisky
Skeen
Skelton
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Solomon
Souder
Spence
Spratt
Stearns
Stenholm
Stump
Stupak
Talent
Tanner
Tate
Tauzin
Taylor (MS)
Tejeda
Thomas
Thornberry
Thurman
Tiahrt
Torkildsen
Traficant
Upton
Volkmer
Vucanovich
Waldholtz
Walker
Walsh
Wamp
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
White
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson
Wise
Wolf
Wyden
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
Zeliff
Zimmer
NOES--142
Abercrombie
Ackerman
Baldacci
Barrett (WI)
Becerra
Beilenson
Berman
Bishop
Bonior
Boucher
Brown (CA)
Brown (FL)
Brown (OH)
Bryant (TX)
Cardin
Chenoweth
Clay
Clayton
Clyburn
Coleman
Collins (IL)
Collins (MI)
Conyers
Coyne
Crapo
DeFazio
DeLauro
Dellums
Dingell
Doggett
Durbin
Engel
Eshoo
Evans
Farr
Fattah
Fazio
Fields (LA)
Filner
Flake
Foglietta
Ford
Frost
Furse
Gejdenson
Gephardt
Gibbons
Gonzalez
Gutierrez
Hall (OH)
Hamilton
Hastings (FL)
Hefner
Hilliard
Hinchey
Hoyer
Jackson-Lee
Jefferson
Johnson, E.B.
Johnston
Kaptur
Kennedy (MA)
Kennedy (RI)
Kennelly
Kildee
Kleczka
Kolbe
LaFalce
Lantos
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lincoln
Lofgren
Lowey
Maloney
Markey
Martinez
McCarthy
McDermott
McKinney
Meehan
Meek
Menendez
Metcalf
Mfume
Miller (CA)
Mineta
Minge
Mink
Moakley
Mollohan
Nadler
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pastor
Payne (NJ)
Pelosi
Pickett
Poshard
Rangel
Reed
Reynolds
Richardson
Rivers
Rose
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanders
Sawyer
Schroeder
Schumer
Scott
Serrano
Skaggs
Slaughter
Stark
Stockman
Stokes
Studds
Taylor (NC)
Thompson
Thornton
Torres
Torricelli
Towns
Tucker
Velazquez
Vento
Visclosky
Ward
Waters
Watt (NC)
Watts (OK)
Waxman
Williams
Woolsey
Wynn
Yates
NOT VOTING--3
Cunningham
Dixon
Gekas
{time} 1537
Mr. NEAL of Massachusetts changed his vote from ``aye'' to ``no.''
Mr. SAM JOHNSON of Texas and Mr. COSTELLO changed their vote from
``no'' to ``aye.''
So the bill was passed.
The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
A motion to reconsider was laid on the table.
____________________