[Congressional Record Volume 141, Number 18 (Monday, January 30, 1995)]
[House]
[Pages H861-H879]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]


                          PERSONAL EXPLANATION

  Ms. HARMAN. Mr. Chairman, during rollcall vote Nos. 60 and 61 on H.R. 
5, I was unavoidably detained. Had I been present I would have voted 
``nay'' on both.

                              {time}  1920

  The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to section 4?


                     amendments offered by mr. clay

  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I offer two amendments, amendment No. 39 and 
amendment No. 41.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendments.
  The text of the amendments is as follows:

       Amendments offered by Mr. Clay: At the end of paragraph (6) 
     of section 4 strike ``or'', at the end of paragraph (7) 
     strike the period and insert ``; or'', and add after 
     paragraph (7) the following:
       (8) is necessary to protect children from hunger or 
     homelessness.
       In section 422 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974, 
     strike ``or'' at the end of paragraph (6), strike the period 
     and insert ``; or'', at the end of paragraph (7), and add 
     after paragraph (7) the following:
       (8) is necessary to protect children from huger or 
     homelessness.

  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that the amendments 
be considered en bloc.
  The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from 
Missouri?
  There was no objection.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay].
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to offer these amendments along 
with the gentlewoman from Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee].
  Mr. Chairman, I yield 3 minutes to the gentlewoman from Texas [Ms. 
Jackson-Lee].
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding me 
this time.
  I am very proud today to offer this amendment today with my good 
friend and colleague from Missouri [Mr. Clay].
  As chairman of Houston's task force on homelessness, for many years I 
have worked on the issues of hunger and homelessness in the State of 
Texas. In my home city of Houston, we have over 10,000 homeless and 
many thousands of families who are perhaps only one paycheck away from 
losing their homes.
  On any given night in this country, even though we have a roof over 
our head, we will find 600,000 people are homeless in the United 
States. Ne'er-do-wells? I do not think so. People who want a chance or 
an opportunity, people who have been one paycheck away from maintaining 
their home and are now out on the street; these people have children. 
It is estimated that 10 times that number have been homeless at some 
time during the past 5 years. Clearly homelessness is increasing, 
impacting more and more lives.
  I think it is important for this body to acknowledge that 
homelessness in the United States has reached epidemic proportions. We 
must, as Members of Congress and as private citizens, take time to look 
beyond our own experience so that we may fully understand the magnitude 
of the crisis.
  The majority in this new Congress have said the community at large 
can handle this problem of homelessness. Oh, I truly appreciate 
charitable institutions in my district, but we all must break the cycle 
of homelessness. The Children's Defense Fund estimates over 5 million 
children go hungry at some point during the month, and over 6 million 
children live in severely inadequate housing. Clearly a child's 
nutritional, educational, and overall general health needs are all 
compromised when subjected to a life that shuffles them from shelter to 
shelter.
  By ignoring the need for greater Federal involvement, we are placing 
more children at risk for abuse and neglect. The time is now, and I am 
very grateful to have joined with the gentleman from Missouri in order 
to effect a bipartisan effort in fashioning a program to address the 
issue of child hunger and homelessness that should not be eliminated 
through unfunded mandates.
  Although I support abolishing unfunded mandates, I think we must 
protect our children. I urge my colleagues to seriously consider the 
ramifications this legislation will have on homeless children and their 
families.
  Realize that literally 10,000 homeless are in the city of Houston; 
1,500 of them are children; 150,000 are marginally homeless, doubling 
up, living with families, friends, and relatives; 30,000 are children; 
250,000 are at risk of becoming homeless, living paycheck to paycheck. 
Any layoff, downsizing, or illness will affect them, and throw a family 
into a homeless condition. Without safeguards such as our amendment, we 
put at risk every program that is designed to help the homeless and 
near homeless to self-sufficiency. Remember, what we are looking 
forward to is unfunded mandates not to burden our cities, counties, and 
towns. Then we need to look forward to assisting those who are seeking 
independence to go from dependence in order to make sure we avoid the 
homeless cycle.
  Mr. Chairman, I am proud to offer this amendment today with my friend 
and colleague from Missouri, Mr. Clay. As chairman of Houston's task 
force on homelessness, for many years I have worked on the issues of 
hunger and homelessness in the State of Texas. In my home city of 
Houston, we have over 10,000 homeless and many thousands of families 
who are perhaps only one paycheck away from losing their homes.
  On any given night, as many as 600,000 people are homeless in the 
United States. It is also estimated that 10 times that number have been 
homeless at some time during the past 5 years. Clearly, homelessness is 
increasingly impacting more and more lives. For this Congress to 
acknowledge that homelessness in the United States has reached epidemic 
proportions is only a small step in the right direction. We must, as 
Members of Congress and as private citizens, take time to look beyond 
our own experiences so that we may fully understand the magnitude of 
their crisis.
  The majority in this new Congress has said that the community at 
large can handle the problem of homelessness. I respectfully disagree 
with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle. As the chairperson 
of the task force on homelessness for the city of Houston, I have 
learned first hand that the Federal Government must play a greater role 
in breaking the cycle of poverty and homelessness. I have great 
admiration for the charitable institutions of my district. However, 
even with the good-heartedness of local communities, our cities cannot 
and should not be expected to respond to a problem of this magnitude.
  More importantly, no longer can we overlook the fact that far too 
many children are affected by hunger and homelessness. The Children's 
Defense Fund estimates that over 5 million children go hungry at some 
point during the month, and over 6 million children live in severely 
inadequate housing. Clearly, a child's nutritional, educational, and 
overall general health needs are all compromised when subjected to a 
life that shuffles them from shelter to shelter. By ignoring the need 
for greater Federal involvement, we are placing more children at risk 
of abuse and neglect.
  The time is now--we must work together in a bipartisan fashion in 
addressing the issue of child hunger and homelessness. We must work 
together to assist our communities in their efforts. We must work to 
provide a coordinated effort to create a system that will help move 
homeless people from the street, to transitional support, and then to 
permanent housing.
  I urge my colleagues to seriously consider the ramifications that 
this legislation will have on homeless children and their families. 
Without safeguards such as our amendment, we 
[[Page H862]] put at risk every program that is designed to help the 
homeless and near homeless to self-sufficiency.
  I look forward to working with my colleagues on this important issue 
and strongly urge their support for this amendment.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the gentleman's amendments for 
the same reasons that I opposed the amendment by the gentleman from 
Vermont. [Mr. Sanders], the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Kanjorski], and the gentlewoman from New York [Mrs. Maloney], all of 
which dealt with some phase of children's concern.
  So I must oppose the amendments.
  Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I yield such time as she may consume to the 
gentlewoman from California [Ms. Roybal-Allard].
  Ms. ROYBAL-ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, on any given night there are 9,000 
hungry and homeless children in California.
  I rise in strong support of the Jackson-Lee/Clay amendments.
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  (Mr. CLAY asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to offer this amendment along 
with the gentlewoman from Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee]. Sponsors of the 
unfunded mandates bill wisely decided that certain laws and regulations 
are too vital to the national interest to be subjected to the cost-
benefit and procedural hurdles mandated under this bill. The exclusions 
already in section 4 acknowledge that we should not engaged in cost-
benefit analysis and procedural fights when it comes to civil rights, 
national emergencies, or international treaties.
  Well I think America's children deserve the same protection from the 
cost-benefit analysis that lies at the heart of this bill. The Federal 
Government has the responsibility to ensure that the States protect 
America's children from malnutrition and homelessness. A point of order 
should not stand in the way of Federal laws that protect our children. 
America's children are at least as important as international treaties.
  One out of four children in this country live in poverty. Millions of 
children go to bed at night hungry. Too many children have no home to 
go to. The problems
 generated by the way this society treats children cross State lines; 
there are national problems that require national solutions, as set 
forth in Federal laws. There are housing problems that demand Federal 
solutions. When we consider laws designed to protect our children from 
these harms, let us not subject those laws to the obstacles created by 
this legislation.

  Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.


amendment offered ms. jackson-lee to the amendments offered by mr. clay

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment to the 
amendments.
  The Clerk read as follows:

       Amendment offered by Ms. Jackson-Lee to the amendments 
     offered by Mr. Clay: Page 1, line 1, insert ``and adults'' 
     after ``children.''

  The CHAIRMAN. The amendment to the amendments offered by the 
gentlewoman from Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee] is not debatable.
  The question is on the amendment offered by the gentlewoman from 
Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee] to the amendments offered by the gentleman from 
Missouri [Mr. Clay].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the ayes 
appeared to have it.


                             Recorded Vote

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The CHAIRMAN. This is a 15-minute vote.
  The Chair may reduce the next vote to 5 minutes.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 142, 
noes 285, not voting 7, as follows:

                              [Roll No 62]

                               AYES--142

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Baldacci
     Barrett (WI)
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Bryant (TX)
     Cardin
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     Danner
     de la Garza
     DeFazio
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Durbin
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
     Frost
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Holden
     Hoyer
     Jackson-Lee
     Jacobs
     Jefferson
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, E. B.
     Johnston
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Laughlin
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lipinski
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McDermott
     McHale
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Mink
     Moakley
     Mollohan
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Olver
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Poshard
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Rose
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Scott
     Serrano
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Thompson
     Torres
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Volkmer
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Williams
     Wise
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn
     Yates

                               NOES--285

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Ballenger
     Barcia
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bateman
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Boucher
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clement
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cox
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Davis
     Deal
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Dicks
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Doyle
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Edwards
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klink
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Luther
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCarthy
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Menendez
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Minge
     Molinari
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Murtha
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Ortiz
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Pomeroy
     Porter
     Portman
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Schumer
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skaggs
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Tejeda
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thornton
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Torricelli
     Upton
     Visclosky
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer
                      [[Page H863]] NOT VOTING--7

     Brown (CA)
     Farr
     Gilman
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Neal
     Weldon (PA)

                              {time}  1946

  Messrs. THORNTON, McDADE, and BEVILL changed their vote from ``aye'' 
to ``no.''
  Mr. BALDACCI changed his vote from ``no'' to ``aye.''
  So the amendment to the amendments was rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
                         parliamentary inquiry

  Mr. VOLKMER. Mr. Chairman, I have a parliamentary inquiry.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it.
  Mr. VOLKMER. If the gentleman from Missouri, myself, had an amendment 
to the amendment of the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay], would it 
now be in order to offer that amendment to the amendment of the 
gentleman from Missouri?
  The CHAIRMAN. A nondebatable amendment could be offered.
  Mr. VOLKMER. Mr. Chairman, I do not plan to do it; I just wanted to 
be sure.
  The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendments offered by the 
gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I demanded a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to clause 2(c) of rule XXIII this will be a 5-
minute vote.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 151, 
noes 277, not voting 6, as follows:

                              [Roll No 63]

                               AYES--151

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Baldacci
     Barcia
     Barrett (WI)
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Boucher
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Bryant (TX)
     Cardin
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     Danner
     de la Garza
     DeFazio
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Durbin
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
     Frost
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Holden
     Hoyer
     Jackson-Lee
     Jacobs
     Jefferson
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, E. B.
     Johnston
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lipinski
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McCarthy
     McDermott
     McHale
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Menendez
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Mink
     Moakley
     Mollohan
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Poshard
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Roemer
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Scott
     Serrano
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Tejeda
     Thompson
     Torres
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Volkmer
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Williams
     Wise
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn
     Yates

                               NOES--277

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bateman
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cox
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Davis
     Deal
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Doyle
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Edwards
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klink
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Minge
     Molinari
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Murtha
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Pomeroy
     Porter
     Portman
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Rose
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Schumer
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skaggs
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thornton
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Torricelli
     Upton
     Visclosky
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--6

     Brown (CA)
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Houghton
     Neal
     Weldon (PA)

                              {time}  1954

  So the amendments were rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to section 4?


                     amendments offered by mr. clay

  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I offer two amendments, numbered 40 and 42, 
and I ask unanimous consent that they be considered en bloc.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendments.
  The text of the amendments is as follows:

       Amendments offered by Mr. Clay: At the end of paragraph (6) 
     of section 4 strike ``or'', at the end of paragraph (7) 
     strike the period and insert ``; or'', and add after 
     paragraph (7) the following:
       (8) is necessary to protect the health and safety of those, 
     including children and discouraged workers, who, through no 
     fault of their own, receive welfare assistance.
       In section 422 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974, 
     strike ``or'' at the end of paragraph (6), strike the period 
     and insert ''; or'', at the end of paragraph (7), and add 
     after paragraph (7) the following:
       (8) is necessary to protect the health and safety of those, 
     including children and discouraged workers, who, through no 
     fault of their own, receive welfare assistance.

  The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from 
Missouri [Mr. Clay] that the amendments numbered 40 and 42 be 
considered en bloc?
  There was no objection.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. Clinger].
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, this amendment adds a much needed exemption to this 
bill. It provides that this act shall not apply to Federal laws or 
regulations that protect the health and welfare of children, 
discouraged workers, and others, who, through no fault of their own, 
need welfare assistance.
  We as a nation have a duty to ensure that no one is left without the 
means to provide for the basic necessities of life. In a society as 
wealthy as ours, we have a moral responsibility to lend aid to the most 
vulnerable members of our society, including those who cannot find 
decent work for decent pay.
  [[Page H864]] Our Nation's unemployment rate is approximately 5\1/2\ 
percent, and while that rate signifies better times for many, it still 
leaves almost 8 milion unemployed. Hidden from that number are half a 
million others who no longer are counted as unemployed because they 
have given up hope of finding gainful employment. They have become 
discouraged workers.
  There are tens of millions of others, including children, the aged, 
and the infirm, who cannot work. They don't have organized lobbyists 
pressing their case before Congress. They don't have the resources to 
contribute to political campaigns. And, too often, when they are not 
being ignored and forgotten, they are being blamed for circumstances 
which are as much of our making as their own. The best way to protect 
these vulnerable members of our society from the onerous and cost-
benefit provisions under this bill is to shield them from these 
provisions.
  I disagree with those who claim that this welfare crisis is the fault 
of the poor. We have a minimum wage today that does not support a 
family of three above the poverty line. We have a fiscal policy that 
encourages unemployment to curb inflation. We have a trade policy that 
encourages the exporting of low skilled jobs.
  Solving this crisis is the greatest challenge we face today.
  Without my amendment, H.R. 5 will discourage the Congress from 
meeting its moral and constitutional responsibilities to ``provide for 
the general welfare'' of the poor, the infirm, and the helpless. While 
the Federal Government clearly has a large role in solving the welfare 
crisis, State and local governments have significant responsibilities 
as well. We, as elected Representatives to the national Government, are 
ultimately responsible for ensuring that governments at all levels meet 
their responsibilities to the weak and the poor.
  Hubert Humphrey said ``The moral test of government is how it treats 
those in the dawn of life--the children; those in the twilight of 
life--the old; those in the shadow of life--the sick and the 
handicapped.'' To adopt H.R. 5 without this amendment is to turn our 
backs on our highest responsibility.
  Mr. Chairman, I urge adoption of the amendment.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I must oppose this amendment for the 
reasons that have been repeated here so often this evening and over the 
last 5 days.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. 
Portman].
                              {time}  2000

  Mr. PORTMAN. Mr. Chairman, it will not come as a surprise that I rise 
again to oppose yet another amendment excluding whole areas of the law 
from the very reasonable cost analysis provided in the legislation, 
H.R. 5.
  It might be of interest to know this is the eighth amendment to 
section 4 relating to health, the fifth amendment relating to safety, 
and the seventh amendment relating to child welfare.
  The reason these amendments went down, they were all voted down with 
solid bipartisan votes, the last one was 277 to 155, is that the bill 
before us in no way precludes Congress from acting responsibly in these 
areas to protect the very important national interests that are the 
subject of these amendments.
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  I have no further requests for time, Mr. Chairman. One of the reasons 
that those amendments have been going down is precisely what I said in 
my remarks, that the people that we are attempting to protect here do 
not have the benefit of lobbyists and other organizational protections 
on their side. It does not have to be that it is a bipartisan effort 
that is defeating this. It is a lack of compassion, in my opinion, on 
the part of some who do not realize the suffering of the people that we 
are trying to exempt.
  Mr. Chairman, I have no further requests for time, and I yield back 
the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Just in closing, I would say that I think the reason that those 
amendments have gone down is not for the reason the gentleman stated 
but because the majority of this body recognized that all of the 
interest groups that have been the subject of these amendments are not 
going to be affected by this law adversely.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
  The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendments offered by the 
gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay]
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 138, 
noes 284, not voting 12, as follows:
                              [Roll No 64]

                               AYES--138

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Barcia
     Barrett (WI)
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Brown (FL)
     Bryant (TX)
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     Danner
     de la Garza
     DeFazio
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doyle
     Durbin
     Edwards
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hinchey
     Jackson-Lee
     Jacobs
     Jefferson
     Johnson, E.B.
     Johnston
     Kanjorski
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lipinski
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McCarthy
     McDermott
     McHale
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Menendez
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Mink
     Moakley
     Mollohan
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Poshard
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Scott
     Serrano
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Tejeda
     Thompson
     Torres
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Volkmer
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Williams
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn
     Yates

                               NOES--284

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Baldacci
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bentsen
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Boucher
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brown (OH)
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Cardin
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cox
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cunningham
     Davis
     Deal
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Doggett
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Frost
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Holden
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klink
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Minge
     Molinari
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Murtha
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Obey
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Pomeroy
     Porter
     Portman
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     [[Page H865]] Rose
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Schumer
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skaggs
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thornton
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Torricelli
     Upton
     Visclosky
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Weldon (FL)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wise
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--12

     Bateman
     Brown (CA)
     Cubin
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Hilliard
     Hoyer
     Neal
     Roybal-Allard
     Watts (OK)
     Waxman
     Weldon (PA)
                              {time}  2017

  Mr. WISE changed his vote from ``aye'' to ``no.''
  So the amendments were rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to section 4?
                          personal explanation

  Ms. ROYBAL-ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, I was unavoidably detained during 
rollcall No. 64. Had I been present I would have voted ``aye.''


                     amendments offered by mr. clay

  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I offer two amendments which are numbered 43 
and 44, and I ask unanimous consent that they be considered en bloc.
  The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from 
Missouri?
  Mr. VOLKMER. Reserving the right to object, Mr. Chairman, and I do 
not plan to object, but I rise to ask the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. 
Clay] to explain briefly why he is wishing to put these amendments en 
bloc, together.
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. VOLKMER. I yield to the gentleman from Missouri.
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding to me.
  Mr. Chairman, I would just say this is a very important amendment 
that would exempt the schoolchildren of this Nation, some 44,000 of 
them who are suffering from or endangered by asbestos.
  Mr. VOLKMER. Mr. Chairman, further reserving the right to object, the 
gentleman has two amendments to two sections or titles of the bill.

                              {time}  2020

  Mr. CLAY. Yes, one of them is purely a technical amendment.
  Mr. VOLKMER. But if the gentleman really wanted to delay this bill, 
he could not offer to put them together and could offer them separately 
as the bill progresses as other Members could have done who have put 
their amendments together; is that correct?
  Mr. CLAY. That is correct. One of the reasons I might say to the 
gentleman that it is necessary for us to offer these amendments on the 
floor is that individuals who were going to offer them in committee 
were precluded from offering those amendments. There were no public 
hearings on these and, as I understand, only one public witness was 
permitted to testify. That is why we are going through the procedure 
that we are going through, and Members of Congress who want to be heard 
on important issues like this have to and are forced to rely on these 
kinds of procedures.
  Mr. VOLKMER. Mr. Chairman, with that understanding, and with the 
clear understanding that the gentleman by offering these amendments en 
bloc is not trying to delay the progress of this bill, I withdraw my 
reservation.
  Mr. CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from 
Missouri?
  There was no objection.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendments.
  The text of the amendments is as follows:

       Amendments offered by Mr. Clay: At the end of paragraph (6) 
     of section 4 strike ``or'', at the end of paragraph (7) 
     strike the period and insert ``; or'', and add after 
     paragraph (7) the following: (8) is necessary to protect 
     school children from exposure to dangerous conditions in 
     schools, including exposure to asbestos and lead paint.
       In section 422 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974, 
     strike ``or'' at the end of paragraph (6), strike the period 
     and insert ``; or'', at the end of paragraph (7), and add 
     after paragraph (7) the following: (8) is necessary to 
     protect school children from exposure to dangerous conditions 
     in schools, including exposure to asbestos and lead paint.

  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and a Member opposed, the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania [Mr. Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay].
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  (Mr. CLAY asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, this amendment exempts from the requirements 
of the unfunded mandates bill protections for children from exposure to 
environmental hazards in school.
  We have heard an awful lot these past few days about concerns Members 
have about the future and especially about the future of our young 
people. We have been told that we have to reduce the deficit because if 
we do not, our children and grandchildren will bear a terrible price.
  I think this concern about our young and their future is legitimate. 
The amendment I offer goes right to the heart of that concern.
  This amendment is a children's protection amendment. It is based on 
the simplest of objectives, namely that our children within the 
classroom deserve the safest possible environment in which to learn. 
That means clean water to drink, clean air to breathe. It means not 
being exposed to asbestos, lead and radon. Exposure to these 
contaminants is making our children sick from one end of this Nation to 
the other. As many as 15 million children attend more than 44,000 
schools containing friable asbestos. Children who are exposed to 
asbestos on a daily basis are up to 10 times more likely to develop 
lung cancer and other diseases than an adult.
  The terrible effects that lead exposure has on children have been 
well-documented. They are much more vulnerable to lead exposure that 
adults and lead-related losses of intellectual capacity is 
irreversible. Lead exposure can damage the brain and the central 
nervous system. It is estimated, Mr. Chairman, that 3 million children, 
one out of every six, have significant blood lead levels.
  The Centers for Disease Control found that 67 percent of the children 
tested in Oakland schools were lead poisoned. Sixty percent of low-
income children tested in Chicago were lead-poisoned. In Philadelphia, 
29 percent of the children tested at inner-city hospital emergency 
rooms had blood levels that were 50 percent above the lead poisoning 
threshold. Six Midwestern States alone have close to 200,000 children 
who suffer from lead poisoning.
  Finally, Mr. Chairman, my amendment addresses the issue of radon. 
This is a radioactive gas which has been linked to numerous lung cancer 
deaths. Young people are more susceptible than adults to the risks of 
cancer caused by radon, and the sad reality is that the source of much 
of this radon is in the public schools. Half of the schools recently 
surveyed by the EPA contained radon that exceeded acceptable levels.
  Mr. Chairman, if that notorious butcher of Baghdad, Saddam Hussein, 
invaded our country and contaminated our schools with poisonous levels 
of lead, asbestos and radon, we would be up in arms. It is no less of a 
threat because it is happening unintentionally.
  All unfunded mandates are not inherently bad. Some of them are worth 
standing up and fighting for. To me an unfunded mandate that rids our 
schools of poison is worth that fight.
  Mr. Chairman, I urge my colleagues to stand up for children and our 
future and support this amendment.
  Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  I rise in opposition to this amendment as well. But I want to first 
of all express my appreciation to the other side and the gentleman for 
the expeditious way in which we handled the previous amendment without 
an amendment to the amendment and also to the gentleman for offering 
his amendments en bloc. I think that is very helpful.
  [[Page H866]] But again I would oppose the amendment because of the 
reasons previously stated.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield such time as he may consume to the gentleman 
from Virginia [Mr. Davis].
  Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, I thank my colleague from Pennsylvania for 
yielding me the time.
  Mr. Chairman, first of all by defeating this amendment, we do not 
affect in any way the current law and current regulations affecting 
lead paint or asbestos. Those regulations, those rules, stay intact. 
This amendment does not even prohibit this House or this Congress from 
affecting future mandates and future laws governing these areas as 
well. We maintain that flexibility. All we do is we get those costs in 
front of us before we act, so that we can understand what the true 
costs of the regulations are going to be before we send the bills down 
to our State and local governments who are going to have to carry them 
out.
  Let me give a couple of examples of how sometimes the best intentions 
from this body end up having the opposite effect that we intend by the 
time they filter down to the State and local governments who we are 
supposedly trying to work with and help.
  On asbestos removal we had a project over in my county and it cost 
the county $7 million in renovations of an old school because of the 
asbestos removal, that we had originally hoped to put up as a senior 
citizens activity center and a home for the elderly. But the costs 
became very, very high in stretching that out. In one case we were able 
to build the center. In the other we had to abandon our plans to build 
housing for seniors. We could not do it because the costs were so great 
that had been sent down to us.
  Asbestos removal, unleaded paint, we will have the flexibility under 
this law to move ahead, but the unintended effects have been that we 
have put untold costs on localities, we have made construction of 
homeless shelters, senior housing, community centers too expensive in 
many cases because of these removal costs that we have put onto the 
localities. So in an adverse and unintended way, instead of protecting 
our children, it hampers local and State governments' ability to 
provide these services.
  I have been in local government for 15 years, Mr. Chairman. This 
sounds great but I can tell you it holds so many unintended 
consequences that have the adverse effects that work contrary to how we 
want them to by the time it gets down to local governments.
  I think this is an amendment that should be defeated.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, this amendment is important. Without the kind of 
protection that this amendment offers, while we will be debating points 
of order under the legislation, children will continue to be exposed to 
life-threatening conditions. Under the language of this bill, we will 
not be able to reauthorize legislation to protect the children if we do 
not pass this kind of legislation without going through the dilatory 
kinds of things that are required and the time-consuming estimation of 
costs. We will not be able to reauthorize those protections that we now 
have in the law for children who are exposed to these kinds of 
contaminants.
  I urge my colleagues to support the amendment.
  Mr. VOLKMER. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. CLAY. I yield to the gentleman from Missouri.
  Mr. VOLKMER. Mr. Chairman, in listening to the gentleman and the 
gentleman on the other side, I come to a conclusion that concerns me a 
great deal. That is, under the provisions of the bill which is said 
that if a reauthorization for one of these matters comes up and it 
costs a certain amount, that it is very likely that those people who 
are now voting against children and the handicapped and everybody else, 
that they probably would not vote in the future for those same people, 
and as a result you would not see anything. Is that your concern?

                              {time}  2030

  Mr. CLAY. I agree; that is my concern.
  The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay] has 
expired.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from 
Oklahoma [Mr. Coburn].
  Mr. COBURN. Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to this amendment for 
the very clear reason that had this bill been in fact in force, the 
problems with asbestos removal as we know today would not be there. We 
have in fact come close to $100 billion in the costs associated with 
asbestos removal.
  There are some very significant studies now coming forth in the 
medical community that would say that we have in fact increased the 
risks to the children through our removal programs with asbestos rather 
than decreased their risks. As a physician, my concern is for the 
children in the schools and the results of that.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
  The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendments offered by the 
gentleman from Missouri [Mr. Clay].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Mr. CLAY. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 127, 
noes 297, not voting 10, as follows:
                             [Roll No. 65]

                               AYES--127

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Barcia
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Brown (FL)
     Bryant (TX)
     Cardin
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     de la Garza
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Doyle
     Durbin
     Edwards
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frost
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Hoyer
     Jackson-Lee
     Jefferson
     Johnson, E.B.
     Johnston
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     McDermott
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Menendez
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Mink
     Moakley
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Rangel
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Rose
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Scott
     Serrano
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Thompson
     Thornton
     Torricelli
     Towns
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Volkmer
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Williams
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn
     Yates

                               NOES--297

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Baldacci
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Barrett (WI)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Boucher
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brown (OH)
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cox
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Danner
     Davis
     Deal
     DeFazio
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Frank (MA)
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Holden
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Jacobs
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Kleczka
     Klink
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     [[Page H867]] LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Lipinski
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Maloney
     Manzullo
     Martini
     Matsui
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHale
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Minge
     Molinari
     Mollohan
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Murtha
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Obey
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Pomeroy
     Porter
     Portman
     Poshard
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Reed
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Schumer
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skaggs
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Tejeda
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Torres
     Traficant
     Upton
     Visclosky
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wise
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--10

     Bateman
     Brown (CA)
     Ganske
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Luther
     McCarthy
     Neal
     Ward
     Weldon (PA)

                              {time}  2047

  Messrs. MOLLOHAN, BALDACCI, and OLVER changed their vote from ``aye'' 
to ``no.''
  So the amendments were rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to section 4?
                  amendment offered by ms. jackson-lee

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendment.
  The text of the amendment is as follows:

       Amendment offered by Ms. Jackson-Lee: In section 4, strike 
     ``or'' after the semicolon at the end of paragraph (6), 
     strike the period at the end of paragraph (7) and insert ``; 
     or'', and after paragraph (7) add the following new 
     paragraph:
       (8) pertains to Medicaid.

  The CHAIRMAN. The gentlewoman from Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes in opposition.
  The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee].

                              {time}  2050

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I offer this amendment because for 
those who are the least among us, they have little voice sometimes in 
the halls of Congress. The Medicaid program fulfills a promise to 
provide much needed health services to over 20 million Americans. This 
is a promise that must be honored. Without question, we must reduce 
waste and inefficiency in this program. I support that. I want 
efficiency and no waste. But I fear that as we visit this legitimate 
concern this Congress will use a tactic of not fully funding the 
program as an excuse to extremely limit its scope and potential. In 
effect, such tactics could even serve to paralyze the program under the 
current unfunded mandates legislation.
  Medicaid serves the crucial health needs of children, disabled 
adults, families and the elderly, all of whom may be indigent. I do not 
expect this to be a popular issue, yet it is one that cannot be 
ignored.
  Many State Governors have voiced dissatisfaction with the Medicaid 
program. I want to work with them to make it better. I think their 
dissatisfaction stems from the frustration surrounding the inability to 
control the costs of health care and the continued increase in the 
number of people who are not covered by insurance.
  What I fear though, is the notion that Medicaid could crumble under 
the tide of programs that are unable to be fully funded. The success of 
this program is directly tied to the idea of cost sharing between the 
Federal Government, States and localities. We cannot let the indigent 
down. It is not an unrealistic idea to expect the States to financially 
contribute to a program which serves the health needs of its citizens.
  The States should realize that Medicaid is an investment into the 
value of the health of its people and Medicaid helps to serve the 
indigent. Healthier citizens translate into to more hours worked on the 
job, if able, more income generated and higher productivity rate.
  In sum, everyone in the State becomes better served when the health 
of its residents, including the indigent, becomes a priority.
  Let us today make the health of America's economically disadvantaged 
a national priority and vote in favor of the Jackson-Lee amendment to 
H.R. 5.
  Mr. Chairman, the Medicaid program fulfills a promise to provide much 
needed services to over 20 million Americans. This is a promise that 
must be honored. Without question, we must reduce waste inefficiency 
within this program. But I fear that as we visit this legitimate 
concern, this Congress will use the tactic of not fully funding the 
program as an excuse to extremely limit its scope and potential. In 
effect, such tactics could even serve to paralyze the program under the 
current unfunded mandates legislation. Medicaid serves the crucial 
health needs of indigent children, disabled citizens, indigent families 
and indigent elderly.
  I do not expect this to be a popular issue, yet it is one that cannot 
be ignored. Many State Governors have voiced their dissatisfaction with 
the Medicaid program. I think their dissatisfaction stems from the 
frustrations surrounding the inability to control the costs of health 
care and the continual increase in the number of people who are not 
covered by insurance. I am not unsympathetic to their frustrations. 
What I fear, though, is the notion that Medicaid could crumble under 
the tide of programs that are unable to be fully funded.
  The success of this program is directly tied to the idea of cost-
sharing between the Federal Government and the States and localities. 
It is not an unrealistic idea to expect the States to financially 
contribute to a program which serves the needs of its citizens. The 
States should realize that Medicare is an investment into the value of 
the health of its people. Healthier citizens translates into more hours 
worked on the job, more income generated, and higher productivity 
rates. In sum, everyone in the State becomes better served when the 
health of its residents becomes a priority.
  Let us today make the health of America's economically disadvantaged 
a national priority and vote in favor of the Jackson-Lee amendment to 
H.R. 5.
  Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I must rise in opposition to the gentlewoman's 
amendment. This is a sweeping amendment which would exempt all of 
Medicaid from any future consideration of what the costs might be.
  But again I would stress it is not in any sense retroactive, will not 
affect Medicare or Medicaid as it exists today.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield such time as he may consume to a Member who has 
had a great many dealings with this matter, the gentleman and former 
governor from Delaware, Mr. Castle.
  Mr. CASTLE. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding to me.
  Mr. Chairman, I have listened carefully to the argument of the 
gentlewoman from Texas. She makes, I think, some valid points. But the 
bottom line is that of all the unfunded mandates that probably are a 
source of a problem for the governors of the various States and some 
local officials, Medicaid probably tops the list. As the gentlewoman 
has stated so clearly, there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with 
this program as it comes from Washington. There is huge inflexibility 
in the Medicaid program as you deal with the indigent, long-term care. 
There are a lot of problems that need to be addressed, that we are 
asked to address more than possibly could be. This is a shared program 
with the States depending on the wealth of the States. It is a budget 
breaker.
  There is tremendous inflation built into Medicaid to begin with, 
probably more than any other Federal program that exists out there. In 
addition to that, you add the new coverage to it and you mandate it 
back to the States, and governors trying to put together their budgets 
have one after another gone broke dealing with this particular issue. 
The medical needs in particular 
[[Page H868]] differ by States. Some States need to take care of 
children because they are not doing a very good job. Other States have 
particular procedures they are concerned about. The States may be 
adjusting some of these procedures by a charity or some other way, and 
yet the Federal Government comes along and mandates that this is ``what 
you must do.'' It adds to the cost unnecessarily. It is very much like 
the Safe Drinking Water Act and others which are getting to the point 
beyond the reasonable in the requests that we are making back to the 
States.
  I think it also important to assert the arguments made all along here 
on the other amendments which we have heard. We are not going back and 
undoing anything at this point. In time of real need we could waive a 
point of order and enact measures if indeed other Medicaid procedures 
are found which are not yet discovered. But this is another unfunded 
mandate, this is a number one unfunded mandate out there, and this is 
probably the one that has triggered this bill as much as anything else. 
While we need to continue to work together as the gentlewoman from 
Texas has stated, the States and the Federal Government to provide 
medical care, unfunded mandates are not the answer.
  I would urge defeat of this amendment.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I yield 45 seconds to the gentleman 
from California [Ms. Roybal-Allard].
  Ms. ROYBAL-ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentlewoman for yielding 
this time to me.
  Mr. Chairman, I rise in strong support of the Jackson-Lee amendment. 
Medicaid is the Nation's safety net for our children and families 
throughout this country. One-half of all Medicaid recipients are 
children and three-fourths of Medicaid recipients are mothers of 
children who depend on Medicaid for important health services such as 
prenatal care.
  Mr. Chairman, in 1994, Medicaid helped meet the medical care needs of 
an estimated 34 million men, women, and children in this country. 
Protecting Medicaid is critical to low-income people in this country 
because without it they would be unable to receive necessary and 
critical health care.
  Mr. Chairman, I ask my colleagues to support the Jackson-Lee 
amendment.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may 
consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I simply ask the question of my colleagues whether or 
not they have gone out into the nursing homes of this country and seen 
the elderly indigent not being able to represent themselves, needing 
Medicaid and Medicare in particular, and finding the frustration when 
some, without any family support, for the slightest of reasons have 
been denied their Medicaid benefits.
  Mr. Chairman, I respect the gentleman from Delaware [Mr. Castle] and 
appreciate that sometimes we must fix a broken system. I welcome that. 
But I clearly think that as the States begin to address this issue of 
Medicaid they must look into the nursing homes of this Nation and look 
at the indigent elderly who have no one to speak on their behalf but 
this Congress who can protect a Medicaid system that can be fixed. I 
support fixing the Medicaid system, but I am clearly concerned about 
the potential of not having a system to protect the indigent elderly 
and the children in need, the indigent poor, as health care is 
something we have advocated in this Congress and yet today we are 
asking for those individuals to be abandoned.
  Look into the Nation's nursing homes, look at the elderly indigent; 
they cannot speak for themselves. They need our support. They need the 
support of Medicaid for their health needs. I ask my colleagues to 
support the Jackson-Lee amendment.
  Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. Clinger] has the 
right to close. If the gentlewoman from Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee] has 
further speakers, she should yield at this time.
  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of my time.
  Mr. Chairman, again I would offer to say that Medicaid serves now 
some 20 million Americans. The wide range of those constituents and 
those individuals cross all States in this country, and in particular 
it hits those who are least able to speak for themselves, the children 
and the elderly.
  Mr. Chairman, I ask for support of this amendment.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  I think we all agree that the Medicaid system is broken and certainly 
needs fixing. I think we are all committed to doing that. That is going 
to happen, I think, because we have general recognition that there are 
egregious problems with the Medicaid system.
  But 20 million people will continue to be served when this bill 
passes. We are not in any way affecting existing law with respect to 
Medicaid.
  Mr. Chairman, I would again urge a no vote on this amendment.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
  The CHAIRMAN. All time has expired.
  The question is on the amendment offered by the gentlewoman from 
Texas [Ms. Jackson-Lee].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Ms. JACKSON-LEE. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 131, 
noes 295, not voting 8, as follows:

                             [Roll No. 66]

                               AYES--131

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Bryant (TX)
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     de la Garza
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Durbin
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
     Frost
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hinchey
     Hoyer
     Jackson-Lee
     Jefferson
     Johnson, E. B.
     Johnston
     Kanjorski
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McCarthy
     McDermott
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Mink
     Moakley
     Murtha
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Poshard
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Rivers
     Rose
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Schroeder
     Schumer
     Scott
     Serrano
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Tejeda
     Thompson
     Thornton
     Torres
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Volkmer
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Williams
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn
     Yates

                               NOES--295

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Baldacci
     Ballenger
     Barcia
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Barrett (WI)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bentsen
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Boucher
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Cardin
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cox
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Danner
     Davis
     Deal
     DeFazio
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Doggett
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Doyle
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Edwards
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hilliard
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Holden
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     [[Page H869]] Istook
     Jacobs
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Kleczka
     Klink
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Lipinski
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHale
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Menendez
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Minge
     Molinari
     Mollohan
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Obey
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Pomeroy
     Porter
     Portman
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Richardson
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Sawyer
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skaggs
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Torricelli
     Upton
     Visclosky
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wise
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--8

     Bateman
     Brown (CA)
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Neal
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Solomon
     Weldon (PA)

                              {time}  2116

  Mr. MOLLOHAN changed his vote from ``aye'' to ``no.''
  So the amendment was rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to section 4?


                   amendments offered by mr. becerra

  Mr. BECERRA. Mr. Chairman, I offer two amendments, numbered 28 and 
29, and I ask unanimous consent to have the two amendments considered 
en bloc.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendments.
  The text of the amendments is as follows:

       Amendments offered by Mr. Becerra: At the end of paragraph 
     (6) of section 4 strike ``or'', at the end of paragraph (7) 
     strike the period and insert ``; or'', and add after 
     paragraph (7) the following: (8) is necessary to protect 
     children from exploitation in the workplace.
       In section 422 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974, 
     strike ``or'' at the end of paragraph (6), strike the period 
     and insert ``; or'' at the end of paragraph (7), and add 
     after paragraph (7) the following:
       (8) is necessary to protect children from exploitation in 
     the workplace.

  The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from 
California [Mr. Becerra] that the amendments be considered en bloc?
  There was no objection.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from California [Mr. Becerra] is 
recognized for 5 minutes, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Clinger] is recognized for 5 minutes in opposition.
  Mr. BECERRA. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, we have been debating for quite some time amendments 
that would try to protect children from all sorts of calamity that may 
result from this unfunded mandate legislation unless we exempt certain 
laws and regulations from this particular bill's enforcement.
  My amendments merely do the following: They would exempt laws that we 
currently have on our books that are there to protect our children who 
work right now. They are there to protect our labor laws that protect 
children from aggressive employers who would work them beyond the 8 
hours. It is to protect them against employers who would have them 
working under conditions that would amount to what many would consider 
slave conditions. It is an effort to keep us from going back to the bad 
old days when we saw children doing the work of adults, not going to 
school, not having an opportunity to learn, and ultimately not being 
productive members of society once they became adults.

                              {time}  2120

  This is an effort to make sure that in passing reasonable unfunded 
mandates legislation, that we do protect our children from enforcement 
of a law that I do not believe has the intention of denying children 
basic rights of protection. That unattended consequence of denying 
protections to our children in the workplace is something that we must 
fear in this legislation because as of now it does not provide those 
protections. So I would urge Members to consider this amendment closely 
and ultimately vote for it.
  Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I, again, rise in opposition to the gentleman's 
amendment for the same reason, which is that this should not be exempt 
anymore than any of these others should be exempt from consideration of 
what costs would be involved.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute and 30 seconds to a prime cosponsor of 
this legislation, the gentleman from California [Mr. Condit].
  Mr. CONDIT. Mr. Chairman, I just rise to hopefully once again add a 
little perspective to this debate in the quick 1-minute time I have 
here.
  This amendment I oppose and all amendments that come on this floor to 
weaken this bill I want Members to know, I oppose, and I am encouraging 
my colleagues to oppose. Not because we are against this amendment or a 
lot of the amendments that have been offered in terms of their 
substance. We think they are good programs, and we ought to have an 
opportunity to look at those programs in a more lengthy and substantive 
way.
  We can do that with this bill, by the way. This bill does not say we 
cannot do these things. It just simply says that we have to pay for 
them if we mandate the costs on local and state government.
  Once again, this bill is prospective. It does not do anything to 
these past programs. Does not mean we cannot do these good programs. It 
just says that we have to take the responsibility and accountability to 
pay for them. So let us not weaken this bill. Let us keep this bill 
strong. And let us defeat these amendments.
  I want to say, if Members look at the tally up here tonight, there is 
a bipartisan support in defeat of these amendments. We have 60 to 70 
Democrats voting with my colleagues, the Republicans, in defeating 
these amendments. This is a bipartisan effort.
  Let me tell Members, we need to be at the business of putting a stop 
to unfunded mandates. We do not need to send out of this House a weak 
version. We need to have a strong bill. We can still do the kinds of 
things we want to do, but we just need to take the accountability and 
responsibility for them.
  Let me tell Members, let us bring this thing to a close.
  Mr. BECERRA. Mr. Chairman, I yield the balance of my time to the 
gentlewoman from California [Ms. Pelosi].
  Ms. PELOSI. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding time to 
me and commend him for his leadership in bringing this very reasonable 
amendment to this legislation to the floor.
  Indeed, the gentleman from California, [Mr. Condit] deserves a great 
deal of credit for his leadership in subjecting this legislation and 
the mandates, the unfunded mandates to the scrutiny which they are 
receiving by this House of Representatives.
  And he has a chance for us to give him exactly what he wants, a 
stronger unfunded mandate bill. Stronger because it protects the rights 
of children. It makes children a first priority.
  The gentleman from Pennsylvania, [Mr. Clinger] in his remarks 
contended that he rose in opposition to this amendment ``for the same 
reason as I have opposed all the others,'' the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania, [Mr. Clinger] said, the distinguished gentleman from 
Pennsylvania. He said, it should not be exempt anymore, the children in 
the work place should not be exempt any more than any other amendment 
should be exempted.
  I say children should be our first priority. Let me read Members what 
this amendment says. The amendment says, and I read from the bill so 
they see where it fits in, ``this act shall not 
[[Page H870]] apply to any provision in a Federal statute or a proposed 
or final Federal regulation that is necessary to protect children from 
exploitation in the work place.''
  ``That is necessary to protect children from exploitation in the work 
place.''
  This is not preferred, better, this or that, is necessary to protect 
children in the work place.
  So, my colleagues, I urge support for the Becerra amendment, because 
exploitation of children in the work place is a real and present danger 
in our country. We, the United States of America, should be the leader 
on this issue. Indeed, the Governors themselves asked for Federal child 
labor protection laws. That is how they got on the books in the first 
place.
  Child labor violations have been on the rise in our country each 
year. Work related injuries to children cause more than 100 deaths and 
20,000 compensation claims. Children often skip school to work 12 hours 
a day as migrant farm workers or in sweatshops. Since 1983, there has 
been a 150 percent increase in reported child labor violations.
  The unfunded mandate legislation takes away the mechanism for 
regulating and prohibiting these violations. The amendment of the 
gentleman from California [Mr. Becerra] does indeed strengthen the 
legislation of the gentleman from California [Mr. Condit] the unfunded 
mandate bill. It does indeed improve it, because it says, no, when it 
is necessary, as the amendment says, to protect children from 
exploitation in the workplace, then we the Congress of the United 
States will not, will not prohibit that from happening.
  In the course of this debate on unfunded mandates there has been a 
great deal of discussion about the impact on children. And really, it 
is just always great to hear the Members rise to their feet to protect 
children in this body. But this one should not even be a debate because 
this legislation calls for what is necessary. It has been requested 
originally by the Governors. It would improve the legislation.
  I commend the gentleman from California [Mr. Becerra] for offering 
it.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania [Mr. Fox].
  Mr. FOX of Pennsylvania. Mr. Chairman, all Members of this body, 
Republicans and Democrats alike, are concerned about the exploitation 
of children. Existing State and Federal laws provide protection and 
H.R. 5 will in no way abrogate those laws.
  As a former prosecutor, I can tell my colleagues there are 
outstanding prevention programs like child lawyers, which address this 
issue, as well as those sponsored by the National DA's Association and 
the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
  We want to protect children not only from problems that could happen 
in the workplace or in schools but from mandating them into oblivion.
  The H.R. 5 unfunded mandates bill will give State and local 
governments the kind of relief they deserve and under that bill we will 
know up front the costs of any new program, and then the Congress can 
agree to pay for them instead of passing the buck onto other 
governments.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield the balance of my time to the 
gentleman from Connecticut [Mr. Shays].
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Connecticut [Mr. Shays] is 
recognized for 2\1/2\ minutes.
  Mr. SHAYS. Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of any legislation that 
would prevent the exploitation of children. I also rise in support of 
the unfunded mandate bill and in opposition to this amendment. I rise 
in opposition to this amendment because it simply is not needed, 
because the concerns of the gentleman from California and the 
gentlewoman from California have been addressed.

                              {time}  2130

  This bill, the mandate bill, says very simply that there has to be an 
estimate of cost to the private sector and to the public sector. If 
there is not an estimate of cost, then a point of order can be raised.
  If there is an estimate of cost, and it is over $100 million for the 
private sector and $50 million for the public sector, a point of order 
can be raised if no money is provided, but a simple majority can 
override the point of order. The same majority that is needed to pass 
the bill, the same simple majority, can also be the same simple 
majority that can override the point of order.
  This amendment is not needed, Mr. Chairman, as were many of the 
amendments that preceded this. The concerns of the gentleman have been 
protected in this mandate bill.
  The CHAIRMAN. All time has expired.
  The question is on the amendments offered by the gentleman from 
California [Mr. Becerra].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Mr. BECERRA. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The CHAIRMAN. This is a 15-minute vote.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 156, 
noes 269, not voting 9, as follows:

                             [Roll No. 67]

                               AYES--156

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Baldacci
     Barcia
     Barrett (WI)
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Bryant (TX)
     Cardin
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Coyne
     Danner
     de la Garza
     DeFazio
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Doyle
     Durbin
     Edwards
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Frank (MA)
     Frost
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Gordon
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Holden
     Hoyer
     Jackson-Lee
     Jacobs
     Jefferson
     Johnson, E. B.
     Johnston
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McDermott
     McHale
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Menendez
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Minge
     Mink
     Moakley
     Mollohan
     Murtha
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Pomeroy
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Rose
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Schumer
     Scott
     Serrano
     Skaggs
     Slaughter
     Spratt
     Stark
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Tejeda
     Thompson
     Thornton
     Torres
     Torricelli
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Visclosky
     Volkmer
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Wise
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn

                               NOES--269

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Boucher
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Costello
     Cox
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Davis
     Deal
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klink
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Lipinski
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCarthy
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHugh
     McInnis
     [[Page H871]] McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Molinari
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Porter
     Portman
     Poshard
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Upton
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--9

     Bateman
     Brown (CA)
     Ford
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Neal
     Weldon (PA)
     Williams
     Yates

                              {time}  2146

  So the amendments were rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to section 4?


                  amendments offered by mr. kanjorski

  Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment No. 78, which has 
been printed in the Record pursuant to clause 6, rule XXIII.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendment.
  The text of the amendment is as follows:

       Amendment offered by Mr. Kanjorski: In section 4, strike 
     ``or'' after the semicolon at the end of paragraph (6), 
     strike the period at the end of paragraph (7) and insert ``; 
     or'', and after paragraph (7) add the following new 
     paragraph: (8) pertains to Medicare.

  Mr. CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. Kanjorski] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and a Member in opposition, the gentleman 
from Pennsylvania [Mr. Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. Kanjorski].

                              {time}  2150

  Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Chairman, in order to expedite the work of the 
House, I ask unanimous consent that it be considered en bloc with an 
identical amendment to section 301 of the bill which creates an 
identical section 422 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974.
  The CHAIRMAN. Would the gentleman indicate which numbered amendment 
he refers to?
  Mr. KANJORSKI. Seventy-eight.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Chair had reference to the other one.
  Mr. KANJORSKI. I ask that this be considered as an identical 
amendment to the other action. In other words, I am trying to 
facilitate a single amendment to apply to all sections of the bill 
where appropriate.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the second amendment.
  The Clerk read as follows:

       Amendment offered by Mr. Kanjorski: In section 301, in the 
     proposed section 422 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974, 
     strike ``or'' after the semicolon in paragraph (6), strike 
     the period at the end of paragraph (7) and insert ``; or'', 
     and after paragraph (7) add the following: (8) pertains to 
     medicare.

  Mr. KANJORSKI (during the reading). Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous 
consent that the amendment be considered as read and printed in the 
Record, and that they be considered en bloc.
  The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania?
  There was no objection.
  Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may 
consume.
  Mr. Chairman, this is an important amendment. It was brought up at 
committee but not brought to a vote because at committee we ran the 
first amendment which was exempting Social Security, and that amendment 
received a vote of 39 yeses and 3 noes, and as a result is part of this 
bill as it appears on the floor. And now what I would like to do is 
have Medicare exempted as Social Security is exempted from the 
implications of this bill.
  I am particularly asking that because we all know that the Medicare 
fund is in difficulty. As the bill is presently constituted, if we are 
called upon to increase taxes to shore up the Medicare fund, this bill 
will say to the States and municipalities that this is an unfunded 
mandate.
  If on the one hand the Congress does not provide the funds or 
override the point of order, the increase in funding would not apply to 
the States and municipal governments across this land and they would 
not have to contribute to the Medicare fund, and that additional 
taxation necessary to bring the Medicare fund up to its actuarial 
soundness would thereby fall on the private sector of our economy.
  In order to see that that does not happen, and further in order to 
see that each individual State or municipality could not ask for 
judicial review to hold up the promulgation of the rules and 
regulations, I ask that we now exempt Medicare as we have exempted 
Social Security so this question cannot arise.
  Mr. Chairman, I think we all know why we should exempt Medicare, and 
I can only assume that we will have opposition on the other side, as we 
have had to every amendment thus far on the floor.
  I am not going to prolong this debate other than the fact that I am 
suggesting this: What it appears to me tonight, and we have heard 
several statements from the majority that we are being dilatory and 
taking up the time of this Chamber in what appears on our side to be 
legitimate debate, but as it appears as each amendment has been offered 
I do not think we have had the benefit of even one Member of the 
majority breaking, so it is very clear that 230 votes reside on the 
majority side of the House, and they will be able to accomplish all of 
the legislation they have intact.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Chairman, will my good friend yield on that point?
  Mr. KANJORSKI. Surely; I yield to the gentleman from Pennsylvania.
  Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Chairman, I think it is necessary to point out that 
maybe 230 Republicans did vote the same, but a great number of 
Democrats voted with us, and that is worth mentioning here. I think it 
says something about the November 8 election.
  Mr. KANJORSKI. I do not want to suggest it is only, but we do have a 
solid block that is clearly a majority. They are going to prevail.
  Let me suggest maybe we can save a lot of frustration and time, and 
that is why do we not take the next 2 weeks on the entire Contract With 
America, bring it here on the floor. Why should we offer any amendments 
if they are not going to be considered as substantive and changing the 
legislation to perhaps meet the needs of the American people, but 
recognize the power of the majority, and it is all here and we have 
that majority, why do not we just run through the entire contract for 
America in 2 weeks, get that behind us, and then get to the substantive 
action?
  I would like to suggest to my friends in the majority that they set 
aside, maybe beginning next week, a 10-day period, bring every piece of 
legislation that they have to the floor, let us put it up to a vote. 
And I would recommend to my friends on the Democratic side who may 
think they can make a substantial contribution that they can offer 
their substantial contribution as a matter of extension in the Record 
so the Record is quite clear where Members stand on these issues, but 
we move by this incredible piece of legislation that we are about to 
enact anyway, but probably are boring the devil out of people who may 
persevere and may be seeing this. But I think we are making a record 
that a deliberative body does not have to be deliberative once an 
election is held. If, in fact, we can come to the conclusion that the 
contract for America should be put into legislation, and passed as 
statute in its entirety, let us do it, let us save time. Maybe we can 
do it to all of the appropriations bills and maybe we can get out of 
here and adjourn by March 1 and let the Government operate.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the amendment, and 
I yield 1 minute to the gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. Tauzin].

[[Page H872]]

  Mr. TAUZIN. Mr. Chairman, I thank my friend for yielding me this 
time. I too have read the Contract With America. I want to tell my 
friend on the other side, while it did talk about doing all of this in 
100 days, it did not mention 100 nights; and this may take more than 
100 nights if we continually debate the same issue over and over again 
and again.
  The issue is not the merits of a particular Federal program. You can 
bring to this floor an amendment that tries to exempt the most 
meritorious of Federal mandates. That is not the issue. That is not the 
issue at all.
  The issue is whether or not in the future this Congress decides to 
continue mandating programs upon local governments and State 
governments, whether we believe in those mandates or not enough to fund 
them. And if we do not believe in them enough to fund them, this 
legislation asked us to think seriously about whether we ought to 
mandate them in the first place. That is what this is all about.
  The reason why my good friend Gary Condit rose to the floor tonight 
is, this has been his issue for some many years. And the reason why so 
many Democrats are rising in opposition to all of these amendments that 
address indeed good and meritorious programs is because to exempt these 
programs with the coverage of this act is to say in the future it is OK 
to continue mandating whatever program they think is important and 
necessary on State and local government and worry about somebody else 
raising the money to pay for them.
  Let me tell you the taxpayers of America have had enough of this 
business of one government telling another government what to do and 
also instructing another government to raise their taxes to pay for it. 
That is wrong, it ought to end.
  That is what this unfunded mandate bill will end and we ought to 
adopt it right tonight.
  Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. TAUZIN. If I have additional time, I am happy to yield to the 
gentleman from Pennsylvania.
  Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Chairman, I think the gentleman from Louisiana has 
a good idea. Over the weekend I saw where the Governors unanimously 
agreed with the proposition we should bail out Mexico. I think since 
they think that is so great, my suggestion is let us not have the 
Congress take up that resolution, let us ask the 50 States to bail out 
Mexico.
  The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired.
  Mr. TAUZIN. My time has expired, but I will agree with the gentleman.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield 3 minutes to the gentlewoman from 
Connecticut [Mrs. Johnson].
  (Mrs. JOHNSON of Connecticut asked and was given permission to revise 
and extend her remarks.)
  Mrs. JOHNSON of Connecticut. Mr. Chairman, there is not anything in 
this bill that will prevent us from passing unfunded mandate 
legislation. Nothing in this bill prevent us from passing laws that 
will mandate costs on States that we do not pay for. The only 
difference is that 51 percent of us will have to vote to do that. But 
this bill is about accountability.

                              {time}  2200

  It will force us to write good law that says specifically whose 
responsibility is what and who is going to pay. I, for one, am going to 
be perfectly proud to stand on this floor and force States to pay 10 
percent of a child-support system; absolutely, we pay 90, they pay 10, 
and we all benefit. I will vote to force States to pay 25 percent of 
water-treatment plant costs; absolutely a good deal.
  But I ought to be voting for that. I ought to be accountable for 
that, and I ought to go home and take the rap for that and argue with 
my folks about that being a square deal and a sound partnership.
  Now, on Medicare, frankly, if the unfunded-mandate law had been in 
place, our Congress would not have been able to underfund Medicare 
payments to hospitals and physicians. Do you know who takes the rap 
because we do not fund Medicare? It is all of those little guys out 
there who pay their own health care premiums.
  Their premiums in Connecticut are one-third higher because we 
underfund Medicaid and Medicare reimbursement rates. That is a 
disgrace.
  All this bill will do is make us publicly accountable to say what is 
important, who is going to pay, and what portion we are going to take 
and what portion we are going to push on anybody else.
  This is just honesty.
  Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Chairman, will the gentlewoman yield?
  Mrs. JOHNSON of Connecticut. I yield to the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania.
  Mr. KANJORSKI. I think the gentlewoman from Connecticut has clearly 
said what my amendment will do. Suppose, if you will, when Medicare has 
to be refunded, the point or order is overcome here. It is directed 
that the proper Federal agency promulgate rules and regulations to 
increase Medicare. It will go on all employers across America, but 
under this bill, if the States or any municipality in America disagrees 
with the promulgation of that rule or regulation, they will have 
because they have judicial review the capacity to go in and tie up that 
portion of the increased funding for Medicare for years in court, and 
what that would necessitate is to make the fund sound, that the 
increase would have to go out to the private employers of America to 
make up for those 3 million employees.
  Mrs. JOHNSON of Connecticut. Reclaiming my time, if we write 
legislation as sloppily as we have been writing legislation in the last 
few years, you bet they will be in court and they will tie it up 
forever. But if we write precise law, that clarifies responsibilities 
on both sides, if we do our job well, then it will be perfectly clear 
who is to pay for what, and I for one will be proud to stand on that 
territory.
  The CHAIRMAN. All time has expired.
  The question is on the amendments offered by the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania [Mr. Kanjorski].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Mr. KANJORSKI. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 161, 
noes 266, not voting 7, as follows:
                             [Roll No. 68]

                               AYES--161

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Barcia
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Boucher
     Brown (CA)
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Bryant (TX)
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     Danner
     de la Garza
     DeFazio
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Doyle
     Durbin
     Edwards
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
     Frost
     Furse
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Gordon
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Holden
     Jackson-Lee
     Jefferson
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, E.B.
     Johnston
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     Klink
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lincoln
     Lipinski
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McDermott
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Menendez
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Mink
     Moakley
     Mollohan
     Moran
     Murtha
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Pomeroy
     Poshard
     Rahall
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Schumer
     Scott
     Serrano
     Skaggs
     Slaughter
     Spratt
     Stark
     Stokes
     Studds
     Stupak
     Tejeda
     Thompson
     Thornton
     Thurman
     Torres
     Torricelli
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Visclosky
     Volkmer
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Wise
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn

                               NOES--266

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Baldacci
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Barrett (WI)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Brewster
     [[Page H873]] Browder
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Cardin
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cox
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Davis
     Deal
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hoyer
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Jacobs
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Linder
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCarthy
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHale
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Minge
     Molinari
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Morella
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Porter
     Portman
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Rose
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Upton
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weldon (PA)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--7

     Bateman
     Dooley
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Neal
     Williams
     Yates

                              {time}  2219

  Mr. SPRATT changed his vote from ``no'' to ``aye.''
  So the amendments were rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
                              {time}  2220

  The CHAIRMAN. Are there further amendments to section 4?


                   amendments offered by mr. martinez

  Mr. MARTINEZ. Mr. Chairman, I offer two amendments, numbered 93 and 
19, which have been printed in the Record, and I ask unanimous consent 
that they be considered en bloc.
  The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from 
California?
  There was no objection.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendments.
  The text of the amendments is as follows:

       Amendments offered by Mr. Martinez:
       In section 4, before ``This Act'' insert ``(a) In 
     General.--'',and at the end of the section add the following:
       (b) Requirements Under Other Laws.--This Act shall not 
     apply to any requirement in effect on December 31, 1994, 
     under--
       (1) the Older Americans Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 3001 et 
     seq.); or
       (2) the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act of 
     1974 (42 U.S.C. 5601 et seq.).
       In section 301, in the proposed section 422 of the 
     Congressional Budget Act of 1974, before ``This part'' insert 
     ``(a) In General.--'', and at the end of the section add the 
     following:
       ``(b) Requirements Under Other Laws.--This part shall not 
     apply to any requirement in effect on December 31, 1994, 
     under--
       ``(1) the older Americans Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 3001 et 
     seq.); or
       ``(2) the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act 
     of 1974 (42 U.S.C. 5601 et seq.).

  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from California [Mr. Martinez] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes in opposition.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California [Mr. Martinez].
  (Mr. MARTINEZ asked and was given permission to revise and extend his 
remarks.)
  Mr. MARTINEZ. Mr. Chairman, I rise not because I have a great hope 
for success but because I have great hope. The people on this side have 
raised a lot of concerns about what we are doing here. I have many of 
the same concerns for the thing that we are doing and the way we are 
doing it, not necessarily for the concept.
  Mr. Chairman, I am one who comes from local government and have had 
to suffer under unfunded mandates. Let me tell my colleagues the 
reality of serving at a local level?
  When you have to deal with budgets, especially in California after 
the devastation of Proposition 13, when you have a constrained budget 
like that, you have a tendency to want to do those things that you feel 
are of the highest priorities and of the greatest necessity to your 
constituency, and so if there are some things that should be done and 
are mandated by the Federal Government because of the responsibility of 
doing it, we would rather not do it, and if it were not mandated, we 
would not do it.
  That is one of the concerns that I have, and the way we pass this 
legislation has not taken into consideration those things that deal 
with particular
 issues concerning people's civil rights, concerning the well-being of 
those people. Those protections and medications, I believe, far 
outweigh--the benefit far outweighs the cost. The problem is in many of 
those instances they are humane, compassionate things and responsible 
things to do, but there is no way to measure the benefit other than if 
we have a sense of compassion.

  My amendment would specifically exempt from this legislation and any 
current or future requirement of this law anything that would nullify 
the protections of the health, and safety and well-being of senior 
citizens under two specific acts: The Older Americans Act and juveniles 
under the Juvenile Justice Delinquency Prevention Act.
  Mr. Chairman, today, out of concern for my bill, I called the 
legislative counsel's office and asked for an opinion. I raised the 
questions that I just raised. I raised the question about the 
provisions to establish new points of order in H.R. 5. He told me, ``As 
H.R. 5 stands now, when the measure comes up for reauthorization,'' and 
these two acts that I am referring to do come up for reauthorizations 
and, at some point in time, have to be adjusted in those 
reauthorizations. When he said that they would come up, they would be 
subject to a point of order if there would be a net increase in duties 
mandated by the legislation, or there is a net decrease in funding, or 
assistance, or if in any way that bill is changed. ``What it does in 
effect,'' he said, ``is that if the bill is changed in any way in any 
one part of the bill, the whole bill is open to that same point of 
order.''
  Now I understand that we can, by a simple majority, waive the point 
of order. The problem is that we allow for a lot of mischief to be done 
if we do not exempt these two things.
  In the case of nutrition programs for children and a nutrition 
program for the older Americans in the Older Americans Act, these 
things have to be adjusted on a regular basis because of the cost of 
living increases. If we were to then adjust it, we would subject the 
whole act to the point of order.
  Additionally, I have some concern for how we are going to determine 
that benefit of that particular cost. Like I said before, it is very 
hard to determine a cost, a benefit--rather it is very hard to 
establish what the value of a benefit of a compassion to act is versus 
the cost of it.
  Mr. Chairman, let me tell my colleagues about the Older Americans 
Act. Not too long ago we passed the Older Americans Act off this floor 
without one dissenting vote. That means that almost every Member--well, 
in fact it means every Member in this legislature who was here at the 
time voted in the affirmative for the Older Americans Act, improving 
the conditions of that act. In there, there was an ombudsman. I doubt 
very much that that ombudsman could stand the scrutiny of this bill as 
we are passing it 
[[Page H874]] today, and we know what that ombudsman was for. It was to 
protect the frail and the elderly in the Older Americans Act.
  For many years the frail and elderly have been abused in nursing 
homes where they are there for long-term care. Just last Friday ABC, 
the program ``20-20,'' contained a piece on the continuing abuse that 
has taken place in care facilities across the Nation, and over the past 
30 years this body, in the past 30 years this body, has developed a 
significant array of programs and protections for senior citizens. I, 
for one, would hate to see those damaged in any way. In 1992 that Older 
Americans Act was signed into law by Bush, and, like I say, it went on 
without a dissenting vote.
  I am equally concerned about, Mr. Chairman, the Juvenile Justice 
Delinquency Prevention Act. When I was chairman of the Human Resources 
Subcommittee we conducted a wide range of hearings all over the 
country. In fact we visited--at the request of the gentleman from 
Nebraska [Mr. Barrett], my colleague on the other side--Nebraska, and 
held a hearing there.
  Mr. Chairman, I rise tonight because I, like others on this side, 
have real concerns about what we are doing here. H.R. 5 is a concept 
that I generally support.
  Having served as a councilman, mayor, and in the State legislature, I 
know how Federal mandates that are not accompanied by Federal funding 
can wreak havoc on already strained local budgets.
  But there are some protections that are mandated by the Federal 
Government that are necessary for the protection of specific classes of 
people, and I believe that the costs of such protections are far 
outweighed by the benefit.
  Specifically, my amendment would exempt from this legislation any 
current or future requirement that nullifies any rule or law that 
protects the health, safety, or well being of senior citizens under the 
Older Americans Act, and juveniles, under the Juvenile Justice and 
Delinquency Prevention Act.
  Mr. Chairman, under the Older Americans Act, there is a mandate that 
States establish a State ombudsman to handle complaints about treatment 
of the elderly who are in long-term care in nursing homes.
  The ombudsman is there to ensure that complaints of abuse and 
negligence are handled.
  In the past, we have seen that they have been shrugged off, and frail 
elderly have been subjected to inhuman treatment.
  Just last Friday, the ABC program ``20/20'' contained a piece on the 
continuing problem of elder abuse taking place in some long-term care 
facilities.
  Over the past 30 years, this body has developed a significant array 
of programs and protections for senior citizens.
  In 1992, in reauthorizing the Older Americans Act, an act that passed 
this Congress on its first vote on the floor without a dissenting vote, 
Congress added the ombudsman requirements.
  While I am sure that this particular section would meet the terms of 
the legislation under consideration today, how do you fix the value of 
a humane compassionate act.
  Mr. Chairman, I am equally sure that changes in the reauthorization 
will open it to a point of order at which time we will see a demise of 
this program and others like it.
  Yet, most Members of Congress who considered that issue found it 
worthy of support and the 1992 amendments were approved by a wide 
margin and signed by President Bush in September 1992.
  Mr. Chairman, similarly, in reauthorizing the Juvenile Justice and 
Delinquency Prevention Act in the 102d Congress, the Human Resources 
Subcommittee conducted a wide ranging series of hearings around the 
country with respect to the needs of vulnerable children in the 
juvenile justice system, and especially those who are homeless or have 
run away from home.
  In fact, we held a hearing in Nebraska at the request of my 
colleague, Mr. Barrett, and we visited Boy's Town while we were in 
Nebraska * * * authorizing legislation were developed in consultation 
with community groups serving these vulnerable children, with local 
juvenile authorities with the Department of Justice's office of 
juvenile justice programs, with the National Association of Family 
Court Judges and others, knowledgeable in dealing with children at risk 
of delinquency or other problems.
  Under the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act, States and 
localities are mandated to provide `sight and sound' separation for 
juveniles in the justice system.
  Prior to the imposition of that mandate, young children who were in 
the juvenile justice system--regardless of the reason for being there--
were housed in the same facilities as hardened adult criminals and, we 
were told, subjected to abuse by those adult prisoners.
  Very often, the reason a child is in custody is for his or her 
protection, in cases such as child abuse, desertion, or abandonment by 
a parent or guardian.
  Such protective incarceration must be in a safe environment, and the 
additional costs to ensure that are certainly worth the effort.
  In addition, certain activities and programs are required to be put 
in place to assist vulnerable children.
  Whether the cost of those programs is a significant burden on the 
State or locality, and the extent to which those costs are not being 
met by Federal dollars allocated to those programs, is not the issue.
  The question is, ``Do we and the States have a moral obligation and a 
responsibility for these children?''
  If we do, should we mandate specific actions?
  I say the answer is yes.
  Further, I would point out that the great majority of the juvenile 
justice cases are non-Federal cases, and, therefore, the expense is a 
State expense, not a Federal responsibility.
  I believe that the need for protecting these vulnerable children is 
so great, and the potential for inaction is so significant, that 
specific exception to the terms of the unfunded mandate legislation 
should be modified to specifically exclude mandates under this 
particular legislation.
  I would also point out that these mandates were not as strict as some 
would have us believe--because States were allowed to request waivers 
for implementation, and where it was shown that the State had 
justification for a waiver, such as in Nebraska, those waivers were 
granted.
  I urge all of my colleagues, as we rush to judgment on the issue of 
unfunded mandates, to consider whether the specifics of a mandate are 
not such that the benefit to the specific population on whose behalf 
the mandate exists do not outweigh the need for lessening the 
restrictions on local and State government or on private concerns.
  These are people without an effective voice at the ballot box or in 
the budget committees of State or local legislative bodies.
  These are people, who, without federally mandated protections, will 
suffer the most in our society.
  I urge an aye vote and yield back the balance of my time.
  Mr. Chairman, I contacted the Legislative Council office regarding 
the concerns we raised about the provisions to establish new points of 
order, in H.R. 5.
  As H.R. 5 stands now, when measures come up for reauthorization, they 
would be subject to a point of order if there is a net increase of 
duties mandated by the legislation, if there is a net decrease in the 
funding or assistance authorized for the legislation, and if they did 
not have the required CBO analysis. The legislation would not be 
subject to this point of order if it contains increased funding for the 
newly mandated duties. If the authorizing legislation passed with the 
increased funding, but the appropriations legislation did not contain 
the required funding, then the mandate would be reduced to match the 
provided funding.
  In the case of children's nutrition programs and senior programs 
where we know there has to be increased funding to keep up with 
inflation, then if there is funding the act is subject to a point of 
order in fact. If any part of the legislation is adjusted in any way 
that does increase net duties or decrease net funding then the whole 
bill would be subject to a point of order, not just that particular 
section.
  Additionally, there is some concern that the legislation that will be 
coming up for reauthorization has never been subject to a CBO cost 
analysis. This could be quite a time-consuming process for some of the 
major programs such as OAA.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the amendment 
offered by the gentleman from California [Mr. Martinez].
  Mr. Chairman, the definition of Federal intergovernmental mandate 
contained in H.R. 5 would not apply to voluntary nonentitlement 
programs. Both of the programs which the gentleman seeks to exempt here 
are voluntary, nonentitlement programs.
  Mr. Chairman, State participation in the Older Americans Act or in 
the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act, which the 
gentleman seeks to exempt, is voluntary, and funding for this program 
is provided through annual appropriations which are made on a 
discretionary basis. The bill that we have before us, H.R. 5, clearly 
defines a Federal intergovernmental mandate to mean a provision that, 
and I am quoting, would impose an enforceable duty upon States, local 
governments or private governments except, except, a condition of 
Federal assistance or duty 
[[Page H875]] arising from participation on a voluntary Federal 
program.
  Mr. Chairman, specifically these two programs fall within that 
definition. Therefore, H.R. 5 does not apply to the Older Americans Act 
or the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Act. The amendment is really 
rhetorical in nature, and I think it is misleading as to what the 
intent of this bill is.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield such time as he may consume to the gentleman 
from Pennsylvania [Mr. Goodling], chairman of the Committee on Economic 
and Educational Opportunities.
  Mr. GOODLING. Mr. Chairman, I, too, want to indicate that this 
amendment is not necessary because these programs are already exempt. I 
have worked with the gentleman who has offered the amendment this 
evening to perfect these programs and to enact these programs and 
certainly would not be here today trying to do anything to take away 
from the programs. They are voluntary on the basis of the State 
participation and, therefore, are not mandates as this legislation 
calls for.

                              {time}  2230

  I would not want the public to think that we are trying to do 
something in H.R. 5 that would erode protection for vulnerable 
populations. Therefore, I believe, and sincerely believe, that the 
amendment is unnecessary, because they are already protected.
  Mr. MARTINEZ. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. GOODLING. I yield to the gentleman from California.
  Mr. MARTINEZ. I thank the gentleman for yielding.
  Mr. Chairman, there are two particular things in each of those 
programs that I will remind the gentleman of that are unfunded 
mandates. One is a sight and sound separation of juveniles in adult 
lockups. Recently we passed that because there were young people being 
put in the same cell with and in the same area with, even at times 
people who had committed crimes against juveniles, and that is why they 
were in. Some of these juveniles were taken into custody because they 
were deserted by their parents, not necessarily because they did 
anything wrong.
  The only thing I am telling the gentleman is there is an unfunded 
mandate within the juvenile justice delinquency program, and there is 
one within the Older Americans Act. The ombudsman was an unfunded 
mandate.
  Mr. GOODLING. Mr. Chairman, reclaiming my time, our colloquy will 
make it clear they are not unfunded mandates and therefore will not be 
part of H.R. 5.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, in conclusion it is the opinion of this 
gentleman and the chairman of the committee that these would not be 
covered by H.R. 5. But if in fact there might be some exception that 
would cover them, they would still be subject to debate in terms of 
what are the costs we are imposing. We could well decide that we might 
want to pass that through without paying for it.
  Mr. Chairman, yield back the balance of my time.
  The CHAIRMAN. All time has expired.
  The question is on the amendments offered by the gentleman from 
California [Mr. Martinez].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Mr. MARTINEZ. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 126, 
noes 296, not voting 12, as follows:

                             [Roll No. 69]

                               AYES--126

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Boucher
     Brown (CA)
     Brown (FL)
     Bryant (TX)
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Coyne
     de la Garza
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Doyle
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gibbons
     Gonzalez
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Holden
     Jackson-Lee
     Jefferson
     Johnson, E. B.
     Johnston
     Kanjorski
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     Klink
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Lewis (GA)
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McDermott
     McKinney
     Meek
     Menendez
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Mink
     Moakley
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Schroeder
     Schumer
     Scott
     Serrano
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stokes
     Tejeda
     Thompson
     Thornton
     Torres
     Torricelli
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn

                               NOES--296

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Baldacci
     Ballenger
     Barcia
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Barrett (WI)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brown (OH)
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Cardin
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clement
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Costello
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Danner
     Davis
     Deal
     DeFazio
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Durbin
     Edwards
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Frank (MA)
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Frost
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hoyer
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Jacobs
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Levin
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Lipinski
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCarthy
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHale
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Meehan
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Minge
     Molinari
     Mollohan
     Montgomery
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Murtha
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Pomeroy
     Porter
     Portman
     Poshard
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Rose
     Roth
     Roukema
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Sawyer
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Sisisky
     Skaggs
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stump
     Stupak
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Upton
     Visclosky
     Volkmer
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weldon (PA)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wise
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--12

     Bateman
     Cox
     Furse
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Herger
     Neal
     Rangel
     Stockman
     Studds
     Williams
     Yates

                              {time}  2247

  Mr. GORDON changed his vote from ``aye'' to ``no.''
  So the amendments were rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
                              {time}  2250


                    amendment offered by ms. pelosi

  Ms. PELOSI. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
  The Clerk read as follows:

       Amendment offered by Ms. Pelosi of California: In section 
     4, strike ``or'' after the semicolon at the end of paragraph 
     (6), strike 
     [[Page H876]] the period at the end of paragraph (7) and 
     insert ``; or'', and after paragraph (7) add the following 
     new paragraph:
       (8) establishes a minimum wage.

  The CHAIRMAN. The gentlewoman from California [Ms. Pelosi] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes in opposition.
  The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from California [Ms. Pelosi].
  Ms. PELOSI. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I have submitted this amendment for the consideration 
of our colleagues because I think it is very important. Even though the 
hour is late, and the debate has gone on a long time, and indeed, we 
have even addressed the minimum wage in the course of debating some 
other amendments en bloc, I think it is very important that the House 
speak to this issue.
  What my amendment does, and I will read it, it says ``This act shall 
not apply to any provision in a Federal statute or proposed for final 
Federal regulation that establishes a minimum wage.'' That is what the 
amendment is.
  The purpose of the amendment, Mr. Chairman, is to remove all doubt 
from where we go from here in establishing a minimum wage.
  I will not go into, because the hour is late, all the reasons why we 
need an increase in the minimum wage and how low the purchasing power 
is. However, Mr. Chairman, I think it is important for Members to know 
that if this amendment does not pass, a situation will exist that 
includes the following.
  Mr. Chairman, just to reiterate for a moment the purpose of this 
amendment, what this amendment does is to say that unfunded mandate 
legislation will not affect the establishment of a minimum wage. The 
purpose of the amendment is to remove all doubt that when this body 
addresses the subject of an increase in the minimum wage, there will 
not be an additional barrier to increasing that minimum wage.
  If this legislation, the unfunded mandate legislation, passes without 
this amendment, the following situation will prevail: When we come to 
the floor with an increase in the minimum wage, it will be necessary 
for us to have a point of order called on the bill. We would have to 
have a majority to override the point of order, and therefore throw up 
a higher bar for an increase in the minimum wage.
  Mr. Chairman, we are sent here to make tough decisions about how we 
legislate. We are not sent here to hide behind process.
  The simple fact of the matter is that without this amendment, if the 
unfunded mandate legislation wins, which it appears to do, we can 
count; and if we strive to increase the minimum wage on this floor, and 
we do not win on the point of order, and so far we have not had the 
votes to win on any of them, then the Federal Government cannot 
increase the minimum wage unless the Federal Government pays for the 
entire increase in the minimum wage, because it most certainly will 
exceed $50 million, point No. 1.
  Point No. 2 is that this is an intergovernmental mandate. That would 
mean that what I just described would apply to the public sector, but 
the private sector would not be affected by the legislation, so it 
would differentiate between the public and private sector, giving an 
increased burden to the private sector, something I do not think any of 
our colleagues want to do.
  So, Mr. Chairman, I think this amendment is very important because it 
says in order to increase the minimum wage: First, we do not have the 
additional barrier of a point of order vote requiring a majority; and, 
second, we do not assume all of the cost of the increase in that 
minimum wage.
  The working poor in our country deserve this opportunity. The minimum 
wage, people working full time, they make less than $9,000 a year. We 
are all familiar with those figures. I just bring them to the floor to 
once again demonstrate: A, how necessary it is to raise the minimum 
wage; B, to not throw up any
 further obstacles to doing so; and, C, to not increase the cost to the 
Federal taxpayer for the increase in that minimum wage.

  Right now today States have that responsibility. Some States, as 
Members know, including the State of New Jersey, which was pointed out 
by Governor Whitman, have a minimum wage of $5.10 which they enforce. 
Therefore, why are we making it more difficult for the working poor in 
our country to earn a living wage by hiding behind process?
  The fact, Mr. Chairman, is that last week we voted for one of the 
mandates. Almost every Republican except the gentleman from Alaska [Mr. 
Young], and every Democrat voted for the amendment addressing age 
discrimination, so we did exempt already one amendment that was 
presented. I am sorry that we could not say children are a priority, 
too, in addition to the elderly. I hope that the working poor will be 
given a fair shot by this body as well.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to this amendment. The gentlewoman 
is right, Mr. Chairman, this issue has been discussed prior to this 
time, on the 23d, in the amendment proposed by the gentleman from 
Vermont [Mr. Sanders] which included minimum wage along with 
occupational safety and others. We did fully debate the matter at that 
time for about 1 hour and 20 minutes, and the vote was 161 in favor and 
263 opposed.
  The only point I would make to the gentlewoman is that she did 
indicate that we would not be able to do this under this existing 
legislation. There is nothing, nothing in this bill that would prevent 
us from in fact imposing the mandate without funding that.
  Ms. PELOSI. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
  Mr. CLINGER. I yield to the gentlewoman from California.
  Ms. PELOSI. Mr. Chairman I appreciate the gentleman yielding to me.
  First of all, Mr. Chairman, I said we had debated on this issue as 
part of an en bloc amendment before. We did not vote on this particular 
minimum wage amendment alone, because I believe that there were Members 
in the body who did not want to support some of the other amendments.
  Mr. CLINGER. I understand, Mr. Chairman.
  Ms. PELOSI. It was in the interest of saving time that we rolled some 
of those amendments.
  Mr. CLINGER. I understand. Reclaiming my time, Mr. Chairman, we will 
not this evening have a vote on this specific issue. The gentlewoman is 
right.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield such time as he may consume to the gentleman 
from Texas [Mr. Pete Geren].
  Mr. GEREN of Texas. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding 
time to me.
  Mr. Chairman, the debate tonight is not about the merits of the 
programs that are the subject of these amendments. The debate is about 
a very simple principle, the principle that any program that is 
important enough to pass is important enough to pay for. On the last 
amendment I am pleased to report that 72 Democrats voted to uphold that 
principle.
  Mr. Chairman, I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment, and 
continue to vote against unfunded mandates.
  The CHAIRMAN. All the time has expired.
  The question is on the amendment offered by the gentlewoman from 
California [Ms. Pelosi].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.


                             recorded vote

  Mrs. COLLINS of Illinois. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  The CHAIRMAN. This is a 15-minute vote.
  The vote was taken by electronic device, and there were--ayes 159, 
noes 260, not voting 15, as follows:
                             [Roll No. 70]

                               AYES--159

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Barcia
     Barrett (WI)
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Bentsen
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Borski
     Boucher
     Brown (CA)
     Brown (FL)
     Brown (OH)
     Bryant (TX)
     Cardin
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clement
     Clyburn
     Coleman
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Costello
     Coyne
     Danner
     de la Garza
     DeFazio
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doggett
     Doyle
     Durbin
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Frank (MA)
      [[Page H877]] Frost
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Gonzalez
     Gordon
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Harman
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Holden
     Hoyer
     Jackson-Lee
     Jacobs
     Jefferson
     Johnston
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     Klink
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lipinski
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Luther
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Martinez
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McDermott
     McHale
     McKinney
     McNulty
     Meehan
     Meek
     Menendez
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Minge
     Mink
     Moakley
     Mollohan
     Moran
     Murtha
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Olver
     Owens
     Pallone
     Pastor
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Pomeroy
     Poshard
     Rahall
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Richardson
     Rivers
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Sawyer
     Schroeder
     Schumer
     Scott
     Serrano
     Skaggs
     Slaughter
     Spratt
     Stark
     Stokes
     Stupak
     Thompson
     Thornton
     Thurman
     Torres
     Torricelli
     Towns
     Traficant
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Visclosky
     Volkmer
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Wise
     Woolsey
     Wyden
     Wynn

                               NOES--260

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Baldacci
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Davis
     Deal
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Edwards
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCarthy
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Molinari
     Moorhead
     Morella
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Ortiz
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Parker
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Porter
     Portman
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Rose
     Roth
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Tejeda
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Upton
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weldon (PA)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wolf
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--15

     Bateman
     Cox
     Furse
     Gibbons
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Johnson, E. B.
     Montgomery
     Neal
     Roukema
     Sisisky
     Stockman
     Studds
     Williams
     Yates

                              {time}  2314

  Ms. HARMAN changed her vote from ``no'' to ``aye.''
  So the amendment was rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
                    Amendments Offered by Mr. Vento

  Mr. VENTO. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendment.
  The text of the amendment is as follows:

       Amendment offered by Mr. Vento: In section 4, strike ``or'' 
     after the semicolon at the end of paragraph (6), strike the 
     period at the end of paragraph (7) and insert ``; or'', and 
     at the end add the following new paragraph:
       (8) applies to life threatening public health and safety 
     matters.

  Mr. VENTO. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment numbered 161 with the 
amendment numbered 137. They are similar amendments in different 
sections of the bill. I ask unanimous consent they be considered en 
bloc.
  The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the second amendment.
  The text of the amendment is as follows:

       Amendment offered by Mr. Vento: In section 301(2), in the 
     matter proposed to be added as a new section 422 to the 
     Congressional Budget Act of 1974, strike ``or'' after the 
     semicolon at the end of paragraph (6), strike the period at 
     the end of paragraph (7) and insert ``, or'', and at the end 
     add the following new paragraph:
       (8) applies to life threatening public health and safety 
     matters.

  The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the unanimous consent request of 
the gentleman from Minnesota that the amendments be considered en bloc?
  There was no objection.
  The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. Vento] will be 
recognized for 5 minutes, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. 
Clinger] will be recognized for 5 minutes in opposition.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. Vento].
  Mr. VENTO. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, this is a relatively straightforward amendment. It 
applies to life-threatening public health and safety matters. I am 
certain that the Members of the House can enumerate many examples of 
life-threatening health and safety actions and laws that we might be 
called upon to consider in this House.
  Second, of course, while the proponents of this bill have argued that 
this is entirely prospective, they are not looking at the entirety of 
the legislation they have before them because indeed on page 16 through 
page 22 it requires any new rules that are put out that come within the 
scope of the language. The point I am trying to make is that it is not 
just a matter of information on unfunded mandates. Much like the CBO 
process that we would go through today, I think there would be much 
less controversy and, in fact, I think I would laud the fact of having 
more information before the House on measures that we are considering.
  Indeed, I think that very often we are subjected or are left with 
subjective information concerning
 unfunded mandates, much as we are with other issues about the impacts 
of legislation.

  Unfortunately, we have no track record to guide us with regards to 
what the nature of the quality of that information will be on unfunded 
mandates. But this bill reaches far further than most bills we have 
considered.
  For instance, although we require a CBO report, we have no separate 
vote on that with regards to authorizing legislation. And I might add, 
ironically this legislation completely exempts the appropriations 
measures from its consideration, Mr. Chairman, so there are many facets 
to this that concern me.
  I think the issue with regard to the straightforward basis with 
regards to unfunded mandates is that whenever we have any matter that 
would be of any controversy we would be subjected to a process vote. 
That is to say that the vote would not come on the issue before us, but 
simply on the discussion or on the debate of an unfunded mandate 
clearly building a hurdle to the consideration of important 
legislation.
  Here again I would point out that my amendment deals with life-
threatening health and safety, Mr. Chairman.
  Furthermore, of course, the legislation reaches into laws already 
enacted, puts in place a procedure whereas new rules or modifications 
have to be considered under the scope of this particular bill. So it 
does affect every law that affects life-threatening health and safety.
  I would not enumerate. I could point out the safety laws that affect 
auto traffic, helmet laws, laws that affect health and safety such as 
water treatment systems in terms of microsporin or other micronisms 
which have in fact 
[[Page H878]] caused problems or the myriad of new problems we have had 
with infectious agents that have appeared on the scene sadly in the 
last many decades, Mr. Chairman.

                              {time}  2320

  I think this is a sensible amendment that speaks really to 
circumstances that should not be subjected to an extra vote, that 
should not be subjected to a whole new rule and regulation process as 
is outlined in this bill.
  This bill is not just prospective. It is retroactive, affecting many 
of the rules and regulations and the laws we would pass.
  Finally, Mr. Chairman, I think this cuts at the heart of what the 
Federal Government does in terms of reaching out. This legislation 
proposes to build in confrontation rather than building on cooperation, 
which I think should be the hallmark of the Federal system, the States 
and the National Government working together.
  The fact of the matter is the Federal Government did not take these 
actions independently. Many of the States, many political subdivisions, 
had decades, hundreds of years, to deal with some of the problems they 
did not deal with through compacts, through their States, because they 
could not deal with them. We need a national policy.
  Mr. Chairman and Members, one of the things that I
   think should come to our attention is we live in a country that has 
the strongest economy the world has ever seen. It has great advances in 
terms of culture and education and the sciences and has made great 
strides, greater than almost any other nation on the face of this 
Earth. We are taking that Government today, the Federal Government, 
that has been a part of that particular system and putting it at great 
risk. I know the greatness of this country is in the people of this 
country, Mr. Chairman, but I also understand that the governing 
structure that we have had has served us quite well.

  I think we should be very careful in moving to make the modifications 
such as we see in this legislation and on an experimental basis. I 
think it is an experiment that may well go awry, and I think in the end 
cause great injustice and great harm to the people we represent.
  Mr. Chairman, this is a good amendment. Eliminating health and safety 
is a sensible and common step, and a thread that has run through many 
of the amendments we have heard on this floor.
  I hope we could vote for it and I think we could move on from this 
section of the bill.
  Amidst the current fervor to pass the Unfunded Mandate Reform Act of 
1995 (H.R. 5) important impacts--often passed off as just information 
that we should be mindful of--have been trivialized. The advocates are 
either naive or misinformed because this proposed law before the House 
will significantly impair the Federal Government's ability to govern. 
The traditional cooperative relationship between State, local and 
Federal Governments would be dramatically altered by the bill before 
us, replaced with confrontation and denial. This legislation will leave 
the Federal Government without the ability to enact laws to protect 
workers in the workplace, to stop pollution from transcending the 
boundaries of one State to pollute the air and water of another, to 
help the elderly receive proper care in nursing homes, and to protect 
the health and safety of the people and of this Nation. These are but a 
small sample of the changes inherent in the policy espoused by this 
measure.
  H.R. 5 as now drafted will unravel decades of public policy that 
established common national standards and intergovernmental cooperation 
with regards to public health and safety and the environment. If 
enacted, State and local governments could no longer be obligated to 
follow national programs unless 100 percent of the funding is assured. 
That is the goal and most likely the result. Regardless of common sense 
and the benefits of these programs and policies for a local area they 
would be frustrated by the provision of this measure. In the absence of 
national standards, State and local governments will establish, or 
worse yet, not establish, their own health, safety and pollution 
standards possibly without even the consideration of their neighboring 
States. In short, the Federal Government
 would be hamstrung in its ability to respond to the needs of the 
people we represent, and subject them to an untested and unverified 
policy prescription. Now the proponents suggest that a single vote 
requirement would save the essence of this Federal-State fabric of law 
so carefully woven throughout our history. This belies the dynamics and 
impact of the required votes in the congressional process. Today it is 
difficult to pass a bill, tomorrow this measure's design is to make it 
far more difficult and darn near impossible to pass legislation steeped 
in controversy, as without doubt proposed life threatening law and 
policy would be. If it were simple, the States acting alone or 
collectively would have accomplished many of these policies--the fact 
is that Federal law and policy in such arena in by necessity, default, 
or denial by the States and political subdivisions.

  But, the unintended consequences of H.R. 5 are worsened by the quick 
pace at which it is being pushed, and the lack of deliberation and 
proper consideration by the House today and the Congress. This bill has 
reached the floor of the House without one hearing being held on its 
merit, intent, or consequence. This is a very significant piece of 
legislation and should be considered with careful analysis--but 
politics and instant gratification seem to be the order of the day and 
the demand by the majority Republicans in this House.
  For these reasons, I am offering an amendment to H.R. 5 to address 
one of the problems that has been both overlooked and continues to be 
ignored by the proponents of this bill. My amendment will exempt 
legislation applying to ``life threatening'' public health and safety 
matters. I have carefully chosen this language, ``life threatening,'' 
which addresses health and safety matters of the utmost significance. 
``Life threatening'' is very specific--it means that which endangers 
one's life.
  Surely the Federal Government, the Congress, must be able to fulfill 
its obligation to protect ``life threatening'' health and safety 
matters of the people we represent without being subject to the 
limitations inherent in this proposal. Look at the list of exceptions 
already in this bill: President declared emergency, individuals 
constitutional rights, discrimination laws, accounting and auditing 
procedures, and national security. Certainly ``life threatening'' 
health and safety matters could and should be a recognized exception.
  This amendment will ensure that the Members of this chamber will be 
able to carry out the responsibility that our constituents have 
entrusted to us. I strongly urge my colleagues to support this 
amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. Vento] 
has expired.
  The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. Clinger].
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
  Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the amendment, which is truly a 
gutting amendment.
  I think all of the measures we have had considered as possible 
exemptions under this bill throughout the last 5 days could easily be 
considered encompassed within the parameters of this particular 
amendment. It is a much broader amendment than anything we have dealt 
with thus far. I think it would truly gut the essence of the bill, 
because it could be argued it could be exempting everything out from 
under the coverage of this bill.
  Mr. Chairman, I yield such time as he may consume to the gentleman 
from California [Mr. Condit].
  Mr. CONDIT. Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the amendment, with 
all due respect to my colleague from Minnesota.
  This amendment, above all the amendments we have heard here this 
evening, will destroy this bill, and once again, this bill is about 
accountability. It is about if we want to do the kinds of things that 
the gentleman from Minnesota wants to do, it is fine and well, and I 
probably would support many of those things.
  This just puts some accountability in it and simply says if we are 
going to do these things, then we ought to figure out a way to pay for 
it.
  I would urge, once again, all of my colleagues, my Democratic 
colleagues who have been so faithful in opposing these amendments, to 
oppose this amendment.
  We have one more after this, and then we move hopefully to the next 
section of the bill. I ask for a no vote on the amendment.
  Mr. CLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
  The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendments offered by the 
gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. Vento].
  The question was taken; and the Chairman announced that the noes 
appeared to have it.

                             RECORDED VOTE

  Mr. VENTO. Mr. Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
  A recorded vote was ordered.
  [[Page H879]] The vote was taken by electronic device, and there 
were--ayes 109, noes 308, not voting 17, as follows:
                             [Roll No. 71]

                               AYES--109

     Abercrombie
     Ackerman
     Barcia
     Barrett (WI)
     Becerra
     Beilenson
     Berman
     Bishop
     Bonior
     Brown (CA)
     Brown (FL)
     Bryant (TX)
     Cardin
     Clay
     Clayton
     Clyburn
     Collins (IL)
     Collins (MI)
     Conyers
     Coyne
     DeLauro
     Dellums
     Deutsch
     Dicks
     Dingell
     Dixon
     Doyle
     Engel
     Eshoo
     Evans
     Farr
     Fattah
     Fazio
     Fields (LA)
     Filner
     Flake
     Foglietta
     Ford
     Gejdenson
     Gephardt
     Green
     Gutierrez
     Hall (OH)
     Hastings (FL)
     Hilliard
     Hinchey
     Jackson-Lee
     Jacobs
     Jefferson
     Johnston
     Kennedy (MA)
     Kennedy (RI)
     Kennelly
     Kildee
     Kleczka
     LaFalce
     Lantos
     Levin
     Lewis (GA)
     Lofgren
     Lowey
     Maloney
     Manton
     Markey
     Mascara
     Matsui
     McDermott
     McKinney
     Meehan
     Meek
     Mfume
     Miller (CA)
     Mineta
     Minge
     Mink
     Moakley
     Nadler
     Oberstar
     Obey
     Owens
     Payne (NJ)
     Pelosi
     Pomeroy
     Rangel
     Reed
     Reynolds
     Rivers
     Roybal-Allard
     Rush
     Sabo
     Sanders
     Schroeder
     Scott
     Slaughter
     Stark
     Stokes
     Stupak
     Thompson
     Torres
     Towns
     Tucker
     Velazquez
     Vento
     Ward
     Waters
     Watt (NC)
     Waxman
     Woolsey
     Wynn

                               NOES--308

     Allard
     Andrews
     Archer
     Armey
     Bachus
     Baesler
     Baker (CA)
     Baker (LA)
     Baldacci
     Ballenger
     Barr
     Barrett (NE)
     Bartlett
     Barton
     Bass
     Bentsen
     Bereuter
     Bevill
     Bilbray
     Bilirakis
     Bliley
     Blute
     Boehlert
     Boehner
     Bonilla
     Bono
     Borski
     Boucher
     Brewster
     Browder
     Brown (OH)
     Brownback
     Bryant (TN)
     Bunn
     Bunning
     Burr
     Burton
     Buyer
     Callahan
     Calvert
     Camp
     Canady
     Castle
     Chabot
     Chambliss
     Chapman
     Chenoweth
     Christensen
     Chrysler
     Clement
     Clinger
     Coble
     Coburn
     Coleman
     Collins (GA)
     Combest
     Condit
     Cooley
     Costello
     Cramer
     Crane
     Crapo
     Cremeans
     Cubin
     Cunningham
     Danner
     Davis
     de la Garza
     Deal
     DeFazio
     DeLay
     Diaz-Balart
     Dickey
     Doggett
     Dooley
     Doolittle
     Dornan
     Dreier
     Duncan
     Dunn
     Durbin
     Edwards
     Ehlers
     Ehrlich
     Emerson
     English
     Ensign
     Everett
     Ewing
     Fawell
     Fields (TX)
     Flanagan
     Foley
     Forbes
     Fowler
     Fox
     Frank (MA)
     Franks (CT)
     Franks (NJ)
     Frelinghuysen
     Frisa
     Frost
     Funderburk
     Gallegly
     Ganske
     Gekas
     Geren
     Gilchrest
     Gillmor
     Gilman
     Gonzalez
     Goodlatte
     Goodling
     Gordon
     Goss
     Graham
     Greenwood
     Gunderson
     Gutknecht
     Hall (TX)
     Hamilton
     Hancock
     Hansen
     Harman
     Hastings (WA)
     Hayes
     Hayworth
     Hefley
     Heineman
     Herger
     Hilleary
     Hobson
     Hoekstra
     Hoke
     Holden
     Horn
     Hostettler
     Houghton
     Hoyer
     Hunter
     Hutchinson
     Hyde
     Inglis
     Istook
     Johnson (CT)
     Johnson (SD)
     Johnson, Sam
     Jones
     Kanjorski
     Kaptur
     Kasich
     Kelly
     Kim
     King
     Kingston
     Klink
     Klug
     Knollenberg
     Kolbe
     LaHood
     Largent
     Latham
     LaTourette
     Laughlin
     Lazio
     Leach
     Lewis (CA)
     Lewis (KY)
     Lightfoot
     Lincoln
     Linder
     Lipinski
     Livingston
     LoBiondo
     Longley
     Lucas
     Luther
     Manzullo
     Martini
     McCarthy
     McCollum
     McCrery
     McDade
     McHale
     McHugh
     McInnis
     McIntosh
     McKeon
     McNulty
     Menendez
     Metcalf
     Meyers
     Mica
     Miller (FL)
     Molinari
     Mollohan
     Moorhead
     Moran
     Morella
     Murtha
     Myers
     Myrick
     Nethercutt
     Neumann
     Ney
     Norwood
     Nussle
     Olver
     Ortiz
     Orton
     Oxley
     Packard
     Pallone
     Parker
     Pastor
     Paxon
     Payne (VA)
     Peterson (FL)
     Peterson (MN)
     Petri
     Pickett
     Pombo
     Porter
     Portman
     Poshard
     Pryce
     Quillen
     Quinn
     Radanovich
     Rahall
     Ramstad
     Regula
     Richardson
     Riggs
     Roberts
     Roemer
     Rogers
     Rohrabacher
     Ros-Lehtinen
     Roth
     Royce
     Salmon
     Sanford
     Sawyer
     Saxton
     Scarborough
     Schaefer
     Schiff
     Schumer
     Seastrand
     Sensenbrenner
     Shadegg
     Shaw
     Shays
     Shuster
     Skaggs
     Skeen
     Skelton
     Smith (MI)
     Smith (NJ)
     Smith (TX)
     Smith (WA)
     Solomon
     Souder
     Spence
     Spratt
     Stearns
     Stenholm
     Stockman
     Stump
     Talent
     Tanner
     Tate
     Tauzin
     Taylor (MS)
     Taylor (NC)
     Tejeda
     Thomas
     Thornberry
     Thornton
     Thurman
     Tiahrt
     Torkildsen
     Torricelli
     Traficant
     Upton
     Visclosky
     Volkmer
     Vucanovich
     Waldholtz
     Walker
     Walsh
     Wamp
     Watts (OK)
     Weldon (FL)
     Weldon (PA)
     Weller
     White
     Whitfield
     Wicker
     Wilson
     Wise
     Wolf
     Wyden
     Young (AK)
     Young (FL)
     Zeliff
     Zimmer

                             NOT VOTING--17

     Bateman
     Cox
     Furse
     Gibbons
     Hastert
     Hefner
     Johnson, E.B.
     Martinez
     Montgomery
     Neal
     Rose
     Roukema
     Serrano
     Sisisky
     Studds
     Williams
     Yates

                              {time}  2339

  So the amendments were rejected.
  The result of the vote was announced as above recorded.
  

                          ____________________