[Congressional Record Volume 140, Number 138 (Wednesday, September 28, 1994)]
[House]
[Page H]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Printing Office [www.gpo.gov]


[Congressional Record: September 28, 1994]
From the Congressional Record Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]

 
       PRESIDENT CLINTON AND GOVERNOR JIM GUY TUCKER OF ARKANSAS

  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Scott). Under a previous order of the 
House, the gentleman from Indiana [Mr. Burton] is recognized for 30 
minutes.
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to dedicate 
another 10 minutes to this discussion, if you would like. I am going to 
need about 20 minutes.
  Mr. CRANE. If the gentleman will just yield to me for a parting 
statement that I would like to make, and I concur with the remarks of 
my colleagues tonight, the ultimate responsibility and the buck stops 
at the President's doorstep. The President made the decision to put her 
in. It was not like she was a total stranger, that he knew nothing of 
her background, put her in that position. He has been written to, as I 
indicated at the outset, on two different occasions with multiple 
colleagues calling for him to seek her resignation.

                              {time}  1750

  So my resolution, House Resolution 545, as I indicated, has 25 
cosponsors right now. I would urge my other colleagues to get on board 
and hopefully we can get the President's attention and replace Dr. 
Jocelyn Elders with someone qualified for that job.
  I thank the gentleman for yielding.
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I thank the gentleman for taking the 
initiative on that resolution. I would be more than happy to be a 
cosponsor if I am not already.
  Mr. DORNAN. May I ask a question?
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Certainly.
  Mr. DORNAN. What was the subject of the gentleman's special order?
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. The subject of my special order is President 
Clinton and Gov. Jim Guy Tucker of Arkansas and their possible 
nefarious activities in Whitewater and some other development 
corporations down in Arkansas.
  Mr. DORNAN. I will listen attentively. I thought that it might be 
Haiti because the gentleman from Indiana is a renaissance man like Mr. 
Hancock and Mr. Crane, and we are all concerned about this--it is not a 
briar patch anymore, it is a tar pit. We are like a big wooly mammoth 
stuck in a tar pit down there, only it is not going to be Chelsea who 
is going to be sniped at, it is going to be some women in uniform down 
there. All of our men are targets down there now. It should not be 
called Mission Restore Democracy, it should be called Mission Creep. 
But I have a perfect dovetail subject where our health services in the 
military are worried about our young men in Haiti.
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Because of the AIDS virus.
  Mr. DORNAN. You got it. The gentleman and I started this discussion 
in 1985. it is not just AIDS, not just AIDS which has permeated the 
whole prostitute class down in Haiti, but, get this: A bigger sampling 
than anybody would have dreamed for to get a percentage rating on the 
whole nation of Haiti was available at Guantanamo from this cross-
sample of people with the strength to get out of the country on a raft 
and out into the hurricane season of the Windward Passage. Seven 
percent of the people of Haiti are infected with the HIV/AIDS, always 
fatal, virus.
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. You are talking about 1 out of 12 people.
  Mr. DORNAN. 1 out of 12 people.
  Now, AIDS is bad enough, but hepatitis B, that is the one that 
changes your life--I had hepatitis A in the Air Force once, and they 
should not have even called both of them hepatitis. Hepatitis A is 
nothing. I just could not give blood anymore because I have it forever. 
But B is the killer, the one that has permeated the whole homosexual 
activist groupings in the United States. hepatitis B is medium to high 
level worldwide standards. Now, get this next line that I am reading in 
all these reports out of Haiti: Penicillin-resistant syphilis 
penicillin-resistant gonorrhea, real virulent strains, and penicillin-
resistant two or three other sexually transmitted diseases, are by 
worldwide standards medium to high in Haiti. The truth is everybody 
should watch everybody else down there. Nobody should get a 3-day pass. 
When it settles down, if ever, nobody should go on leave and nobody 
should go near any prostitute back in the bushes. This is going to 
cause Americans to be curled up in a prenatal position on a bed, 
holding their mother's and dad's hand, brothers and sisters around 
them. Not homosexuals, GI's. And 5, 10 years, even as late at 15 years 
from now, dying in the prime of life because of one moment of weakness, 
dying in the prime of life when they are supposed to be restoring 
democracy.
  Now, Mission Creep, a daily evolving, dangerous mission with no 
direction, is going to cause a major health problem. Now, we released 
all the haitians in the early waves that came to Guantanamo into the 
United States where by a court order of one Florida judge who had more 
regard for this country, some flakey liberal judge, how many Americans 
are going to come back form Haiti?
  I am going to tell you this, Dan: Does the gentleman know that I 
affected the CBS news one night by calling Dan Rather? I had had an 
acquaintance with him, sponsored a dinner for him in the Speaker's 
dining room once, with Bill Dannemeyer, a pal of mine who has retired. 
I said would he take my call? So he took my call. This is like 1985 or 
early 1986.
  I said, ``Dan, Bob Dornan.'' And he said, ``Yes, Congressman, what 
can I do?''
  I said, ``Dan, you just said something on the air tonight that is not 
true. You said the major categories for AIDS,'' this is in the 1985-
1986, 8 years ago, maybe 8\1/2\ years, ``still are 
homosexuals, hemophiliacs, and Haitians. And that is a nice 
alliteration, but Haitians had nothing to do with hemophelia or 
activism in homosexuality. There is no genetic coding in Haitians that 
make them susceptible to AIDS or makes them have AIDS more than any 
other nation in the world. You are not only slandering a country, it is 
historically inaccurate, and you are causing a terrible social problem 
for every decent Haitian, whether they are naturalized American 
citizens or not.''

  And he said, ``Well, Congressman, what is the answer?''
  I said, ``Are you broadcasting from New York this week?''
  He said, ``Yes.'' I said, ``Check it out, check it in the homosexual 
community in New York. New York homosexual activists have discovered 
Haiti as a vacation port of call. They took AIDS to Haiti. And when 
health people interviewed Haitians''--and I know of what I speak, Dan, 
because I am a loyal Catholic. People of French Catholic culture, when 
asked if they took money for homosexual services, they deny it. So 
every Haitian, whether he is into voodoo or practicing Catholic or some 
Protestant faith, will say, ``I have had no homosexual contact.''
  So you think it is something genetic. I said, ``Dan, it is New York 
homosexuals taking it to Haiti, and it spread in that country because 
they are impoverished and when tourists come down there with a lot of 
money, it breaks down people's moral ethos.''
  And he said, ``Congressman, I am going to check it out, get into 
that.''
  He never again said Haitians as a category. NBC and ABC were not into 
that. And nobody was heard in this Nation about Haitians.
  Now, where did I get all of that brilliant dialog? Down at the 
Centers for Disease Control, up at the National Institutes for Health, 
out at my friend Tony Fauci. So here I am defending the honor of Haiti 
by explaining how they got this disease. Now it is up to 7 percent.
  Now, I do not want to take any more of the gentleman's time, but what 
I would like to do, because I have my 30 minutes, is to tell people 
that I have been trying to get a special order here for 2 or 3 weeks to 
document carefully with every statement. I put it in the Record before, 
and there were some misprints. I want to go through this on Jocelyn 
Elders, following the gentleman's special order. I will truly, as I do 
every time the gentleman is talking about all of these scandals bottled 
up in the press----
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. So there will be some consistency, we can let 
the gentleman go and I will just follow up with mine afterward because 
I think we ought to have some consistency for the record. I would be 
happy to take an interruption here.
  Mr. Speaker, we understand that the gentleman from Michigan has a 
special order between the two of us. Is that correct?
  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Scott). The gentleman from Michigan [Mr. 
Bonior] has a 1-hour special order, and the order after that would be 
the gentleman from California and then the gentleman from New York 
after that.
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. How much time do I have left on my special 
order, Mr. Speaker?
  The SPEAKER pro tempore. Twenty minutes.
  Mr. DORNAN. I will tell you what I will do----
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. I would be happy to yield to the gentleman.
  Mr. DORNAN. If you let me do my prolog, I will then put in all of our 
statements in the Record. I agree continuity is important.
  Now, here is good news for Mr. Bonior: I will then sit and listen to 
the gentleman's special order and then waive my 30 minutes and then he 
goes. So usually I try to be extemporaneous because I think through the 
C-SPAN television cameras you grab people more, grab the feeling that 
it is from your heart--tell it as you see it from your heart. I want 
this just right.


                   why jocelyn elders should be fired

  Now, that is my title. Now the prolog: the overall mission of the 
office of the U.S. Surgeon General is the protection, improvement, and 
advancement of the health of all American people.
  The primary responsibility of our Surgeon General is to advise the 
Nation on public health matters. As the Nation's top spokesperson on 
issues of public health, the American people look to the person who 
serves as the Surgeon General for guidance and leadership on such 
matters.
  Now, my statement: Clearly, our current Surgeon General, Jocelyn 
Elders, has failed in the mission of her office. She has demonstrated 
hostility toward mainstream American values and mocked American 
citizens who want public policy to reflect the Judaeo-Christian ethical 
standards of our culture.

                              {time}  1800

  Elders has also abused the public trust and compromised her ability 
to unify the American people under the common goal of sound public 
health policies. Moreover, her policies and pronouncements are 
dangerous to the health and well-being of families in America.
  Now what I will do is just give paragraph titles, and then they can 
find it in the Record.
  Joycelyn Elders on Teenage Sexuality: three extremely offensive and 
harmful statements.
  I just got a message from my staff. AIDS figures will not be updated 
until October. We used to get them every month. Now we have to sit with 
December 21 figures. Since this is the middle of September I said 217 
were dead. It was really more like 250. We are already up to 275,000 
given the death rate.
  So, I put in those on teenage sexuality:
  Joycelyn Elders continues to taunt and ridicule Americans who 
advocate principles of sexual restraint and responsibility as a means 
of preventing unwanted pregnancies and/or sexually-transmitted 
diseases.
  Elders disregards and disdains that abstinence is the only proven 
method of preventing unplanned pregnancies and sexually-transmitted 
diseases and should be part of any education program. In fact, Elders' 
prescription for dealing with the problem of teenage pregnancy includes 
free condoms in grade and high schools; explicit and graphic sex 
education beginning as early as kindergarten and; unrestricted, tax-
funded abortion.
  Elders even went so far as to say, ``We have driver's ed for our 
kids. We've taught them what to do in the front seat of the car, but 
not what to do in the back seat.'' (Evening Times, 3/4/92). Yet during 
her previous tenure as Arkansas health director, the incidence of 
teenage pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases actually rose 
steadily--even after posting steady declines in the years before her 
appointment (Alan Guttmacher Institute and Arkansas Department of 
Health).
  Next on homosexual activity, one, two, three extremely offensive 
statements:


                         ON HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY

  Joycelyn Elders continues to advocate a re-definition of the 
traditional family structure by supporting the adoption of children by 
homosexuals (USA Weekend Interview, 6/2-5/94).
  Elders has said, ``Yes [Boy Scouts should admit homosexuals]. I also 
think girls who are lesbians should be allowed to join the Girl 
Scouts.'' (USA Weekend Interview, 6/3-5/94).
  Regardless of documented evidence that shows homosexual behavior is 
associated with communicable venereal diseases such as hepatitis and 
the always fatal AIDS, Elders has endorsed homosexual sex as 
``healthy,'' ``wonderful,'' and ``normal'' (The Advocate, 3/94). This 
has given a false sense of security to all those who engage in high-
risk sexual behavior.
  On abortion, one, two, three, four amazingly offensive, bigoted and 
anti-Catholic specific statements:


                              on abortion

  Joycelyn Elders is a relentless advocate for abortion on demand for 
any or no reason. She has even said that, ``Abortion has reduced the 
number of children with severe birth defects * * * The number of Down's 
syndrome infants in Washington State in 1976 was 64 percent lower than 
it would have been without legal abortion * * * Abortion was the single 
most important factor in the significant decrease in neonatal mortality 
between 1964 and 1977.'' (Testimony before Senate Labor Committee on 
FOCA, 5/23/90).
  Elders continues to insult and demean Americans who believe pre-born 
children are human beings worthy of constitutional protections as well, 
telling pro-life advocates to ``get over their love affairs with the 
fetus.'' (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette 1/19/92).
  Elders has also characterized people who oppose abortion as ``non-
Christians with slave-master mentalities'' who want ``to keep people 
poor, ignorant, and enslaved.'' (American Medical News, 1/11/93).
  Regarding those who are morally opposed to taxpayer financed 
abortion, Elders claimed, ``If Medicaid does not pay for abortions, 
does not pay for family planning, but pays for prenatal care and 
delivery, that's saying: I'll pay for you to have another good, healthy 
slave.'' (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette 1/19/92).
  On religious bigotry, this is a category she has publicly demonized 
and marginalized Americans whose values are rooted in religious tenents 
and who advocate public policies that reflect those values. One, two, 
three, four statements on that:


                           religious bigotry

  Joycelyn Elders has publicly demonized and marginalized Americans 
whose values are rooted in religious tenets and who advocate public 
policies that reflect their values.
  Elders has characterized those who hold moral and religious values as 
harmful to our Nation's children and has said, ``We've got to be strong 
to take on those people who are selling our children out in the name of 
religion.'' (June 22, 1994, Lesbian and Gay Health Conference).
  Elders has also criticized how religious leaders view human sexuality 
and has called those who oppose sex education the ``un-Christian 
religious right'' (June 22, 1994 Lesbian and Gay Health Conference).
  When asked why there was such a sharp rise in teen pregnancy in 
Arkansas during her tenure as Arkansas Health Director, Elders claimed 
it was, ``poverty and ignorance and the Bible-Belt mentality.'' 
(National Review, ``Life and Death in Arkansas,'' 4/26/93).
  Furthermore, Elders continues to wage a non-stop, public attack on 
Roman Catholics by saying, prior to her appointment, ``Look who's 
fighting the pro-choice movement: a celibate, male-dominated Church.'' 
(Address to Arkansas Coalition for Choice, 1/18/92).
  Reckless judgment calls, what a category, one, two, three, four, 
five, and I think those will cause people to die in this country 
because the statement from the bully pulpit, in uniform, combat, 
decorations to the Public Health Service emblazoned across her 
uniform.:


                        reckless judgment calls

  Joycelyn Elders has demonstrated reckless judgment on serious 
societal problems with statements such as, ``I would hope that we would 
provide them [drug-abusing prostitutes] Norplant, so they could still 
use sex if they must to buy their drugs.'' (CNBC ``Talk Live'', 6/19/
93); and
  In addition, despite strong evidence that illegal drug use is on the 
rise, Elders has said that ``We would markedly reduce our crime rate if 
drugs were legalized'' (National Press Club Luncheon) and recommended 
that ``we have doctors or clinics set up were addicts can get their 
drugs free or pay $1.'' (USA Weekend, 6/3-5/94).
  When Elders was asked about her son Kevin's recent conviction for 
selling cocaine, she replied, ``I don't feel that was a crime.'' 
(Houston Chronicle, 9/3/94)
  Elders has even justified higher Federal spending on AIDS research 
rather than on cancer and heart disease because, ``most of the people 
that die with heart disease and cancer are our elderly population, you 
know, and we all will probably die with something sooner or later'' and 
that ``we are losing the people that's going to be paying my Social 
Security, and that bothers me.'' (Senate committee hearing, 5/11/94).
  And while claiming to care about the health of our children, Elders 
recklessly refused to notify the public about defective condoms 
dispensed by the State of Arkansas to school-based clinics.
  In conclusion, and then I am finished:
  Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders continues to exploit her privileged 
position and compromise her ability to unite the American people under 
the common goal of improving the health of the general public.
  More importantly, Elders is failing to carry out the overall mission 
of the Office of the United States Surgeon General and is therefore 
failing to protect, improve, and advance the health of all Americans.
  Joycelyn Elders' unrelenting, insulting statements demean our 
Nation's top public health post and common decency demands that the 
President ask for her resignation.
  If we were earlier in the session, I would draw up articles of 
impeachment, and I found out through our top Parliamentarians that I 
would have been able to get a little earlier in the year a vote whether 
or not to table that as a privileged motion, and that vote, to smart 
people all across the country, would have been an up or down vote on 
Joycelyn Elders. We will just have to wait and see what the election 
results are. I am sure my friend, the gentleman from Michigan [Mr. 
Bonior], will be back. I will try and recruit him, and, if that does 
not work, another solution:
  Fire Mr. Clinton and the co-President.
  Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague, the 
gentleman from California [Mr. Dornan], for his remarks, and I am glad 
we got that information into the Record.
  I would like to, in the remaining time I have, talk about the 
continuing saga of Arkansas. Arkansas is a great State, but, boy, they 
have got a history of all kinds of allegations against government 
officials down there that just boggles the mind. Right now there is an 
investigation going on by the independent counsel that is probably 
going to take 6 months or longer because of Whitewater, and Morgan 
Guarantee Savings & Loan, and all of these alleged nefarious activities 
that took place under the Clinton administration in Arkansas.
  Now tonight I want to talk about a related subject that parallels 
what happened under Bill Clinton's administration in Arkansas with the 
Whitewater Development Corp. Jim Guy Tucker, who is now the Governor of 
Arkansas, was the Lt. Gov. of Arkansas under Bill Clinton. He became 
Governor when Clinton was elected President. They are very close 
political allies. He is running for reelection this year against 
Republican Sheffield Nelson.
  Governor Tucker, as I said, is a close political ally of President 
Clinton. Like President Clinton, Mr. Speaker, he has been involved in 
several questionable business deals with James McDougall that 
contributed to the bankruptcy of Madison Guarantee Savings and Loan at 
a cost to the taxpayers of $47 million.
  According to press reports, Mr. Speaker, the Resolution Trust 
Corporation, the RTC, has subpoenaed documents from Governor Tucker's 
businesses going back over a decade, and the RTC is pursuing fraud 
claims against him. These same kinds of allegations have been made 
against President Clinton and Whitewater, and these are being 
investigated as well. The RTC has named Governor Tucker in a criminal 
referral to the Justice Department. Governor Tucker is a possible 
target for indictment in the independent counsel's investigation into 
the failure of Madison Guarantee Savings and Loan.
  Now Jim Guy Tucker borrowed over $1\1/4\ million from Madison 
Guarantee Savings & Loan. When Madison was taken over by Federal 
regulators in 1986, Governor Tucker's $1 million loan for a sewer 
system was one of the largest delinquent loans on the books. According 
to the Wall Street Journal, Governor Tucker never filled out, never 
filled out, loan applications or put up a down payment. He told the 
Little Rock Democrat Gazette, ``I called up Jim McDougall if I wanted 
to borrow money.'' He did not even fill out applications for $1 
million. It would be kind of nice for Americans to be able to go and do 
that anytime they needed money.
  So, Mr. Speaker, this raises serious questions. How can a thrift 
savings institution whose deposits are insured by the Federal 
Government, by the taxpayers, loan hundreds and thousands of dollars 
without getting so much as a written loan application? How could a 
federally insured savings and loan give out hundreds and thousands of 
dollars in loans without getting even a small down payment? Could it be 
because of the political influence of President Clinton, or then-
Governor Clinton, and now Governor Jim Guy Tucker? To what extent did 
Jim Guy Tucker's bad loans at Madison contribute to Madison's $47 
million tax-funded failure?
  Governor Tucker also borrowed over three-quarters of a million, and 
this is a different one, over three-quarters of a million dollars from 
David Hale's Capital Management Services Co. Jim Guy Tucker was a 
millionaire primarily because of his investments in cable television. 
However Capital Management Services was licensed by the Small Business 
Administration to loan to people only, quote, ``who are socially or 
economically disadvantaged small business people.'' Now, if he was a 
multimillionaire as a result of his cable television industry, how 
could he borrow money from the SBA when they were supposed to only loan 
money to people who are socially or economically disadvantaged? This is 
because, obviously, of the political influence.
  One of Tucker's companies defaulted on $100,000 of those loans, and 
Capital Management Services also went bankrupt. David Hale has pled 
guilty to fraud and is now cooperating with Federal investigators. 
David Hale has accused both Bill Clinton and Jim Guy Tucker of applying 
political pressure to get him to make inappropriate loans.
  So, this raises more serious questions. No. 1, why would a 
millionaire like Jim Guy Tucker go to David Hale's company to borrow 
money when he could borrow from any bank in Arkansas? No. 2, Jim Guy 
Tucker represented both David Hale and Capital Services as an attorney, 
Capital Services Management in legal matters, and borrowed from Capital 
Services Management repeatedly. He was a legal counsel, and he borrowed 
from them all the time. How could he be unaware that they were supposed 
to make loans only to disadvantaged people and still go ahead and get a 
loan himself? No. 3, to what extent did Jim Guy Tucker's bad loans 
contribute to the failure of Capital Management Services? No. 4, did 
Jim Guy Tucker and Bill Clinton pressure David Hale to make loans that 
the law prohibited him from making, as David Hale claims?

  Mr. Speaker, that, we believe and hope, is being investigated by the 
independent counsel. But it also ought to be investigated by the 
Congress of the United States, and, if we get a majority next year, you 
can rest assured that we will have these investigations that are now 
being stonewalled by the Democrat majority in this House.
  Now two examples of Jim Guy Tucker's tangled financial transactions: 
One was the Castle Sewer and Water Co. In 1986 Jim Guy Tucker formed 
the Castle Sewer and Water Co. to purchase the water utility associated 
with a new development called Castle Grande. He purchased the utility 
from Madison Financial Co., a subsidiary of Madison Guarantee Savings 
and Loan, both owned by Jim McDougall, Bill Clinton's partner in 
Whitewater. Tucker's company borrowed $1.2 million from Madison 
Guarantee Savings and Loan to purchase the water company. He put up a 
down payment with $150,000 that he borrowed from David Hale's Capital 
Management Co.
  Now think about that. He borrowed $1.2 million, and how did he make 
the down payment? He borrowed $150,000 with no collateral, evidently no 
collateral, from Capital Management Services, David Hale's company. An 
appraiser with close financial ties to Madison Guarantee put the 
utility's value at $1.3 million.

                              {time}  1810

  When the RTC, the Resolution Trust Corporation, took over the loan a 
year later, an independent appraiser placed the true value of that 
property at only $640,000, about half of what they said it was worth a 
year earlier. This is one of several known instances of appraisers with 
ties, with ties, to Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan, inflating the 
value of the properties. And when you get into this, you find that 
these people who are making these appraisals have financial dealings 
with these institutions as well. And one questions whether or not they 
were being twisted or blackmailed into raising the appraised values of 
these properties. It sure raises one's hair a little bit to think that 
sort of thing was going on.
  Tucker's company made payments on the note for only 5 months. He only 
made payments for 5 months. When the RTC ousted Jim McDougall from 
Madison Guaranty in July, the Castle Sewer note was one of the largest 
delinquent notes in the Madison Guaranty portfolio, which cost the 
taxpayers $47 million.
  In 1989, the Resolution Trust Corporation negotiated a settlement 
with Jim Guy Tucker's lawyers and reduced the amount of the loan from 
$1.2 million to $525,000. That is a pretty good deal. They lowered it 
by more than half. However, a year later they were still missing 
payments even on the $525,000. The $150,000 loan that he used to get 
the $1.2 million loan from Capital Management Services was never 
repaid. That $150,000 just went out the window. Instead, Capital 
Management Services had to settle for a one-third stake in the 
worthless sewer company. So, for the $150,000, they got one-third 
ownership in a sewer company that was defunct, and that contributed to 
the failure of David Hale's company.
  In 1989, Jim Guy Tucker sold his stake in the company, $1.2 million, 
he sold his stake in the company for $10, and he walked away from the 
whole mess.
  Questions: How could Jim Guy Tucker, a millionaire with extensive 
holdings in several companies, just walk away from a legitimate 
business debt and saddle the taxpayers of America with it?
  Two: How could Jim McDougall get away with a conflict of interest 
like approving a million dollar loan when the transaction involved his 
own company?
  Three: How could Jim McDougal get away with basing a million dollar 
loan on an appraisal performed by an appraiser with a serious conflict 
of interest?
  Four: How could Jim Guy Tucker get away with borrowing over $1 
million without putting up a cent of his own money?
  Five: Why, after the RTC cut the loan amounts by $600,000, was 
Tucker's company still unable to make regular payments?
  Six: Why was the $150,000 loan from Capital Management Services never 
repaid?
  Now, let us talk about the Castle Grande Development. Also in 1986, 
Jim Guy Tucker borrowed $260,000 from Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan 
to invest in 34 acres of the Castle Grande land development deal being 
put together by Jim McDougal. This is very similar to Whitewater, what 
Bill Clinton was doing. They parallel each other. If you put them on 
the chart and go down, they did almost the same thing, like almost they 
learned from one another. As everyone knows, Jim McDougal was Bill 
Clinton's partner in the Whitewater Land Development deal.
  Half of the $260,000 was to be used to purchase the land, and the 
other half was to pay for improvements on the land. According to the 
Associated Press, Federal investigators are investigating whether Jim 
Guy Tucker committed bank fraud by misrepresenting what he would use 
the loan for. The funds were never spent on the land, they were never 
spend on land improvements. They were spent to pay off a loan Tucker 
guaranteed for a friend.
  So the money he borrowed, the $260,000 was for land purchases and 
improvements. He took the money for the land improvements, and instead 
of using it for that purpose, he committed what many believe is bank 
fraud by paying off a loan for a friend.
  A second appraiser with financial ties to Madison Guaranty valued the 
land at $350,000. Here again we have somebody who was tied to Madison 
Guaranty, had financial ties, who appraised this land at $350,000. Yet 
when the RTC took over the land, they appraised it for one-third of 
that value, $120,000. Once again, the taxpayer gets the shaft.
  Jim Guy Tucker quickly turned around and sold the land to Southloop 
Construction Co. which he coowned, for $350,000, which was a $200,000 
profit for him. Southloop Construction Co. funded this purchase partly 
with a $100,000 loan from Capital Management Service. Again, David 
Hale's company was never repaid.
  Southloop Construction never paid off the loan from Madison. After 
becoming seriously delinquent, it was paid off in 1993 by another one 
of Tucker's companies.
  Qestion: Once again, how could an inflated appraisal be accepted from 
an appraiser who was indebted to Madison Guaranty? The appraiser 
evidently owed over $200,000 to them. He made the appraisal and 
obviously was going to do what they said, because he was owing them 
$200,000 at the time.
  Again, why was Jim McDougal allowed to approve a loan in which he had 
a personal financial stake? This is a serious conflict of interest and 
a violation of the law.
  Third, after Jim Guy Tucker made a $200,000 profit by selling the 
land to his own corporation based on an inflated appraisal, why was he 
allowed to walk away from the $100,000 he still owed to Capital 
Management?
  To reiterate some previous questions to what extent did Jim Guy 
Tucker's bad loans at Madison Guaranty contribute to that S&L's 
downfall, which cost the taxpayers $47 million, you and me and all of 
the country. To what extent did Jim Guy Tucker's bad loans at Capital 
Management Services contribute to its downfall? And did Jim Guy Tucker 
and Bill Clinton both exert political pressure on David Hale to make 
loans not allowed under its license with the Small Business 
Administration?
  We need answers to all of these questions, and we need a complete 
investigation. Not like that which the Committee on Banking, Finance 
and Urban Affairs had in this House, or they had in the other body. 
Those investigations were a whitewash of Whitewater.
  What they ended up doing was saying when we started to question 
people about things like what happened with Whitewater and Vince 
Foster's death, they gave the Republican Members and all Members 5 
minutes to question 10 people and get answers. You cannot question one 
person and get answers in 5 minutes. They had them questioning 10 
people at one time, and they had 5 minutes to get both the questions 
and the answers in. Even everybody watching across the country came to 
the conclusion, anyone paying attention, that this certainly was 
inefficient and not a complete investigation.
  We have millions and millions and millions of dollars of taxpayers' 
money that has been stolen, literally, by people involved in these 
corporations. Bill Clinton, it is alleged, used his political 
influence, and many people believe that documents we need to prove that 
have been shredded. We can go into that, and that would take more time 
than I have tonight.
  Now, we find that Lieutenant Governor Jim Guy Tucker, his Lieutenant 
Governor and colleague in politics down there, is accused of doing the 
same thing, and there is documentation that proves there is merit to 
these arguments. That is why the independent counsel is investigating 
this.
  But even through we have an independent counsel looking into these 
allegations and looking into these cases very thoroughly, the defraud 
of this country of millions and millions of dollars from the taxpayers, 
we still need a complete and thorough investigation by the Congress of 
the United States.
  We have not been able to get the majority party to go along with 
that. We have had a whitewash of Whitewater. We are probably now going 
to have a whitewash of this Castle Grande Development Corp. And the 
people of this country should not tolerate it.
  All of these things I have been talking about on the floor for the 
past month or month and a half should be investigated thoroughly, not 
only by the independent counsel, but by a selected committee, of both 
Democrats and Republicans in this House. We are talking about honesty 
and integrity in government, and taxpayers' money, and the Congress of 
the United States is charged with responsibility of spending taxpayers' 
money in the right way.
  Since taxpayers have been defrauded in these cases, we need to have 
congressional investigations. So as we come close to adjourning sine 
die in this session of Congress, I just would like to say to my 
colleagues, when we come back in January, one of the first orders of 
business should be complete and thorough hearings into Whitewater and 
all related matters, even if it involves the President of the United 
States and Hillary Clinton.

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