[Senate Prints 107-84]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Prt. 107-84
EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
=======================================================================
VOLUME 4
__________
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
1953
MADE PUBLIC JANUARY 2003
Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs
______
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
107th Congress, Second Session
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
Richard A. Hertling, Minority Staff Director
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii, SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois TED STEVENS, Alaska
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Kim Corthell, Minority Staff Director
Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
83rd Congress, First Session
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas \1\
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington \1\
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri \1\
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
assistant counsels
Robert F. Kennedy Donald A. Surine
Thomas W. La Venia Jerome S. Adlerman
Donald F. O'Donnell C. George Anastos
Daniel G. Buckley
investigators
Robert J. McElroy
Herbert S. Hawkins James N. Juliana
G. David Schine, Chief Consultant
Karl H. W. Baarslag, Director of Research
Carmine S. Bellino, Consulting Accountant
La Vern J. Duffy, Staff Assistant
----------
\1\ The Democratic members were absent from the subcommittee from
July 10, 1953 to January 25, 1954.
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Volume 4
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 23.......... 2729
Testimony of Sidney Glassman; David Ayman; Lawrence Friedman;
Elba Chase Nelson; Herbert S. Bennett; Joseph H. Percoff;
Lawrence Aguimbau; and Perry Seay.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 26.......... 2777
Statements of Benjamin Zuckerman; Hans Inslerman; Thomas K.
Cookson; Doris Seifert; Lafayette Pope; Ralph Iannarone;
Saul Finkelstein; Abraham Lepato; Irving Rosenheim; and
Richard Jones, Jr.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 27.......... 2815
Statements of Edward Brody; Max Katz; Henry Jasik; Capt.
Benjamin Sheehan; Russell Gaylord Ranney; Susan Moon; Peter
Rosmovsky; and Sarah Omanson.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 30.......... 2851
Statements of Harold Ducore; Stanley R. Rich; Nathan Sussman;
Louis Leo Kaplan; Carl Greenblum; Sherrod East; Jacob
Kaplan; James P. Scott; Bernard Lee; and Melvin M. Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 2.......... 2893
Statements of William Johnstone Jones; Murray Narell; Samuel
Sack; Joseph Bert; Raymond Delcamp; Leo Fary; and Irving
Stokes.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 3.......... 2919
Testimony of Abraham Chasanow; Joseph H. Percoff; Solomon
Greenberg; Isadore Solomon; William Saltzman; and Samuel
Sack.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 4.......... 2953
Testimony of Victor Rabinowitz; Wendell Furry; Diana Wolman;
Abraham Brothman; Norman Gaboriault; Harvey Sachs; Sylvia
Berke; and Benjamin Wolman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 5.......... 3033
Testimony of Harry Hyman; Vivian Glassman Pataki; Gunnar
Boye; Alexander Hindin; Samuel Paul Gisser; Stanley
Berinsky; Ralph Schutz; and Henry Shoiket.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 16......... 3083
Testimony of Rear Admiral Edward Culligan Forsyth; Samuel
Snyder; Ernest Pataki; Albert Socol; Joseph K. Crevisky;
Ignatius Giardina; and Leon Schnee.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 17......... 3125
Testimony of James Weinstein; Harry Grundfest; Harry
Pastorinsky; Emery Pataki; and Charles Jassik.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 25......... 3151
Testimony of Morris Savitt; Albert Fischler; James J. Matles;
Bertha Singer; and Terry Rosenbaum.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10......... 3171
Testimony of Michael Sidorovich; and Ann Sidorovich.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10......... 3175
Statement of Samuel Levine.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 14......... 3199
Testimony of Albert Shadowitz; Pvt. David Linfield; Shirley
Shapiro; and Sidney Stolberg.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 15......... 3221
Testimony of Ezekiel Heyman; Lester Ackerman; Sigmond Berger;
Ruth Levine; Bennett Davies; John D. Saunders; Norman
Spiro; Carter Lemuel Burkes; John R. Simkovich; Linda
Gottfried; Joseph Paul Komar; John Anthony DeLuca; and Sam
Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 16......... 3273
Testimony of Wilbur LePage; Martin Levine; John Schickler;
David Lichter; Albert Burrows; Seymour Butensky; and
Kenneth John Way.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 17......... 3309
Statements of Irving Israel Galex; Harry Lipson; Seymour
Janowsky; Harry M. Nachmais; Curtis Quinten Murphy; Martin
Schmidt; and David Holtzman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 18......... 3349
Statements of Joseph John Oliveri; Philip Joseph Shapiro;
Samuel Martin Segner; Joseph Linton Layne; and Harry
William Levitties.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase,
October 19..................................................... 3403
Testimony of William H. Taylor; and Alvin W. Hall.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase,
October 21..................................................... 3425
Testimony of Elizabeth Bentley.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, November
10............................................................. 3431
Statement of Walter F. Frese.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 12.................................................... 3445
Testimony of Jean A. Arsenault; Sidney Friedlander; Theresa
Mary Chiaro; Albert J. Bottisti; Anna Jegabbi; Emma
Elizabeth Drake; Henry Daniel Hughes; Abden Francisco;
Joseph Arthur Gebhardt; Emanuel Fernandez; Robert Pierson
Northrup; Lawrence Leo Gebo; William J. Mastriani; Gordon
Belgrave; Arthur Lee Owens; John Sardella; and Rudolph
Rissland.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 13.................................................... 3545
Testimony of Lillian Krummel; Dewey Franklin Brashear; Arthur
George; Higeno Hermida; Paul F. Hacko; Alex Henry Klein;
Harold S. Rollins; and John Starling Brooks.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 18.................................................... 3585
Testimony of Karl T. Mabbskka; James John Walsh; Nathaniel
Mills; Robert Goodwin; Henry Canning Archdeacon; Donald
Herbert Morrill; Francis F. Peacock; William Richmond
Wilder; Donald R. Finlayson; Theodore Pappas; George Homes;
Alexander Gregory; Witoutos S. Bolys; Benjamin Alfred; and
Witulad Pierarski.
Transfer of the Ship ``Greater Buffalo,'' December 8............. 3607
Testimony of Paul D. Page, Jr.; and George J. Kolowich.
Personnel Practices in Government--Case of Telford Taylor,
December 8..................................................... 3637
Testimony of Philip Young.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Sidney Glassman testified in public
session on December 16, 1953. Joseph H. Percoff (1908-1986) and
Louise Sarant (1923-1997) testified in public on December 11.
David Ayman (1907-1999), Lawrence Friedman, Elba Chase Nelson
(1889-1967), Herbert S. Bennett, Norman Levinson (1912-1975),
Lawrence Aguimbau, and Perry Seay did not testify in public.]
----------
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 23, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met at 10:30 a.m., pursuant to recess, in
room 29, Federal Building, New York, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy
(chairman) presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr,
staff director; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel; Harold
Rainville, administrative assistant to Senator Dirksen; and
Robert Jones, research assistant to Senator Potter.
Present also: John Adams, counselor to the Secretary of the
Department of the Army; and Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton.
The Chairman. Will you stand and be sworn? In this matter
now in hearing before this committee, do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Glassman. I do.
The Chairman. Will you give the reporter your full name?
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GLASSMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
VICTOR ABRAMOWITZ)
Mr. Glassman. Sidney Glassman.
The Chairman. And how long since you worked in the Signal
Corps Lab?
Mr. Glassman. Excuse me. Where?
The Chairman. How long since you worked for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Glassman. For the Signal Corps?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Glassman. I am sorry.
The Chairman. Have you ever worked for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I worked for the Signal Corps Procurement
District.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Glassman. In 1942.
The Chairman. You started in 1942?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder? I can not
hear you.
Mr. Glassman. I started in February 1942.
The Chairman. And you worked from February '42 until when?
Mr. Glassman. Until about October 1942.
The Chairman. And then did you quit, or were you
discharged?
Mr. Glassman. I quit to go into the army.
The Chairman. And what branch of the army were you in?
Mr. Glassman. I was in the Signal Corps.
The Chairman. In the Signal Corps in the army. And were you
in as a civilian employee?
Mr. Glassman. I don't quite understand.
The Chairman. Were you a civilian, when you were in the
army?
Mr. Glassman. No. I was a member of the armed forces.
The Chairman. What was your rank?
Mr. Glassman. You mean my last rank, I presume?
The Chairman. When you went in.
Mr. Glassman. Sergeant. I was a sergeant when I was
discharged.
The Chairman. You went in as what?
Mr. Glassman. As a private.
The Chairman. You were discharged as a private?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. And when were you discharged?
Mr. Glassman. In December of 1944.
The Chairman. Where were you stationed?
Mr. Glassman. For most of my time, I was stationed in
England, and the last part of my army career prior to the time
I was wounded was in Normandy.
The Chairman. And you were wounded in 1944, were you?
Mr. Glassman. That is right, in July.
The Chairman. In July. And you were discharged in December
of '44?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. An honorable discharge?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, it was a CDD.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Glassman. A CDD.
The Chairman. What is a CDD?
Mr. Glassman. Because of my wounds.
The Chairman. And then where did you go to work?
Mr. Glassman. I went to school.
The Chairman. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Glassman. I went to school at Columbia University.
The Chairman. Columbia. And what courses did you take
there? What did you major in?
Mr. Glassman. Economics and statistics.
The Chairman. Economics and statistics. And when did you
leave Columbia?
Mr. Glassman. I left in about August of 1946, though I
still took a course or two at night after that.
The Chairman. Did you go back to work for the government
then?
Mr. Glassman. No, I did not. I worked for about a month
during the summer for a professor, doing some statistical work
for him. I think he was doing some labor statistics for the
government.
The Chairman. That was professor who?
Mr. Glassman. His name was Hsu, I believe.
The Chairman. How do you spell that?
Mr. Glassman. H-s-u.
The Chairman. What is his first name?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall. I think it was Francis.
The Chairman. Was he Chinese?
Mr. Glassman. I think so.
The Chairman. He was Chinese?
Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
The Chairman. Was he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis----
The Chairman. Will you speak up a little louder?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Then was this professor doing work for the
government?
Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
The Chairman. Do you know what branch of the government he
was working for?
Mr. Glassman. No. He was doing some labor work, labor
research statistics, for something, but I don't recall exactly
for what branch.
The Chairman. And you worked for him for about one month,
in 1946?
Mr. Glassman. No, I think it was 1945.
The Chairman. That is while you were still going to school?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. What did you get paid for that work?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall the exact amount, but I think
the rate was at a P-2 salary at that time.
The Chairman. And after you left school, where did you go
to work?
Mr. Glassman. I went to work for the United Nations.
The Chairman. And what branch, what department, what
agency?
Mr. Glassman. I was in economic affairs.
The Chairman. Who recommended you for that job?
Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Certainly.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. I don't know if I had any direct
recommendations. I had a number of letters from various
professors that one normally gets when you get out of school.
The Chairman. What professors?
Mr. Glassman. Professor Goodrich.
The Chairman. He is from Columbia?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. Professor Mills.
The Chairman. Mills?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I think there was also one--I don't know
whether he was a professor. Eastwood.
The Chairman. Eastwood.
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall any others.
The Chairman. What was Goodrich's first name?
Mr. Glassman. Carter, I believe.
The Chairman. C-a-r-t-e-r?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. And what was Mills' first name?
Mr. Glassman. I don't know, I think it was F.
The Chairman. And Eastwood? Where does he work?
Mr. Glassman. He is at Columbia, too.
The Chairman. He is a teacher?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I believe he is.
The Chairman. You do not know his first name, do you?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall his first name.
The Chairman. Now, was Goodrich known to you to be a member
of the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of the
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. How about Mills?
Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
The Chairman. How about Eastwood?
Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
The Chairman. Then how long did you work in the UN?
Mr. Glassman. About six years.
The Chairman. From '46 until when? '52?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I believe it was until '52.
The Chairman. What time in '52 did you leave the UN?
Mr. Glassman. I think it was in December.
The Chairman. December of last year?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. What salary were you getting in the UN?
Mr. Glassman. In '52? I think it was about $8,500 gross.
The Chairman. Was that tax-exempt?
Mr. Glassman. No. Well, my net salary was around $6,000-
something, on which I paid taxes, and for which the UN
reimbursed me.
The Chairman. In other words, the UN paid you for whatever
taxes you paid; is that right? So that when you arrive at a
figure of $8,500, you take your $6,000 and add to that whatever
they reimbursed you? Is that how you arrived at the figure of
$8,500?
Mr. Glassman. No, there was a UN tax assessment, that
brought you down to $6,000.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist party
while you were in the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage while you were
in the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I was not.
The Chairman. You were not engaged in any espionage?
Mr. Glassman. I was not.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove any classified material
from the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. First of all, what do you mean by
``classified material''?
The Chairman. What do you think I mean? You have been in
the Signal Corps handling it.
Mr. Glassman. I never said that I handled any material. I
don't know what you mean, but if you mean secret material----
The Chairman. Then we will explain to you. Either secret,
confidential, or restricted.
Mr. Glassman. No, I don't think I ever did.
The Chairman. You do not think you ever handled any
classified material?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. How about when you were preparing the
material for the Chinese Communist professor? Did you handle
classified material there?
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I never testified that anybody was a Chinese
Communist professor.
The Chairman. Well, let us drop the ``Communist'' and say:
when you were working for the Chinese professor, Francis Hsu.
Mr. Glassman. I never was aware of any confidential
material.
The Chairman. You did not see anything that was stamped
``confidential,'' ``secret,'' ``restricted''?
Mr. Glassman. Not that I can recall.
The Chairman. When you were working in the UN, did you have
access to any confidential, secret, or restricted material?
Mr. Glassman. I don't know of any confidential material at
the UN.
The Chairman. I did not get your answer.
Mr. Glassman. I said, I don't know of any confidential
material at the UN. Most all the stuff I worked on were public
reports.
The Chairman. Why did you leave the UN?
Mr. Glassman. I was terminated, in December.
The Chairman. I see. And what were the grounds of your
termination? I am not asking you whether the charges against
you were true or not. I am just asking you what the charges
were, the basis upon which you were terminated.
Mr. Glassman. I was terminated for declining to answer
certain questions before a congressional committee.
The Chairman. Did you refuse to answer whether you were an
espionage agent at that time?
Mr. Glassman. I don't think I was ever asked that question.
The Chairman. If you were, you answered that question, did
you?
Mr. Glassman. I am sorry. I didn't quite understand.
The Chairman. If you were asked whether you were an
espionage agent, did you answer the question?
Mr. Glassman. I think you asked me something similar to
that previously, just before.
The Chairman. We are not talking about the grounds for your
being discharged from the UN. You said you refused to answer
certain questions before a congressional committee.
Mr. Glassman. That was not one of the questions that was
asked me.
The Chairman. I see. Okay, were you engaged in espionage at
any time over the past ten years?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. The answer is ``no''? Did you ever associate
with individuals whom you knew or had reason to suspect were
engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Certainly.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
The Chairman. You don't think so?
Mr. Glassman. As far as I know.
The Chairman. Your answer is that as far as you know, you
have not been associated in the past ten years with anyone whom
you knew or had reason to suspect was engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Is that correct?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know anyone who has been engaged in
espionage, to your knowledge?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. The answer is ``no''?
Mr. Glassman. ``No.''
The Chairman. Do you know anyone that you suspect might
have been engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. No. I don't think I would.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
basis of the privilege of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the Communist party
advocates the overthrow of this government by force and
violence?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
same grounds.
The Chairman. Have you ever engaged in any activities
which, in your opinion, were a violation of any of our laws,
the laws of this country, in connection with any Communist
party activities or membership in the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
basis of my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. Mr. Glassman, are you a citizen of the United
States?
Mr. Glassman. I am.
Mr. Jones. As a citizen, would you oppose any group
advocating the overthrow of this government?
Mr. Glassman. I would decline to answer that question, on
the grounds of the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. You served in the army?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I did.
Mr. Jones. While a member of the army, you opposed a group
advocating the overthrow of this government.
Mr. Glassman. Do you mean Nazi Germany?
Mr. Jones. The enemy, yes.
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I fought in the war.
Mr. Jones. Now, you say under the Fifth Amendment you
refuse to answer at the present time whether you would oppose
any group that would overthrow the government?
Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. Does the Communist party, in your mind, advocate
the violent overthrow of this government?
Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever, to your knowledge, see or
handle any classified material, government documents? By
``classified,'' I mean restricted, secret, or confidential.
Mr. Glassman. Not that I can remember.
The Chairman. After you left the UN, where did you go to
work?
Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
The Chairman. What business is that?
Mr. Glassman. Furniture manufacturing.
The Chairman. Furniture? What is the name of that company?
Mr. Glassman. It is the Herrschaft Products.
The Chairman. How do you spell that?
Mr. Glassman. H-e-r-r-s-c-h-a-f-t.
The Chairman. Who were your partners in that, if any?
Mr. Glassman. Well, it is a corporation. I suppose you
would like to know the officers of the corporation?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Glassman. Mr. Herrrschaft, myself, and my wife are the
officers of the corporation.
The Chairman. Do you have a family?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
The Chairman. How old is the oldest one?
Mr. Glassman. The oldest? You mean child, I suppose?
The Chairman. The oldest child.
Mr. Glassman. About four.
The Chairman. Has your wife ever worked for the government?
Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. Except that she was in the armed forces.
The Chairman. Was she a WAC?
Mr. Glassman. She was a WAC.
The Chairman. You took an oath when you entered the army to
uphold the Constitution of the United States. Did you feel then
that you would uphold the Constitution, or did you feel that
this government should be destroyed by force and violence?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
The Chairman. Will you name them?
Mr. Glassman. I have two sisters.
The Chairman. And what are their names?
Mr. Glassman. Sylvia and Doris.
The Chairman. Is their last name the same as yours now?
Mr. Glassman. No, they are not.
The Chairman. What are their names?
Mr. Glassman. Doris Lesansky----
The Chairman. Let me ask you first: Is either of them now
working for the government?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. Have either of them worked for the
government?
Mr. Glassman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Are they married now?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. You need not bother with their names. You are
pretty sure they have not worked for the government. They have
not worked for the government to your knowledge?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. And how many brothers do you have?
Mr. Glassman. I don't have any brothers.
The Chairman. Are your mother and dad living?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. Are they working for the government, or have
they?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. Is your wife a member of the Communist party
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. Was she a member before you married her?
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer, on the basis of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. On the basis of the Fifth Amendment. I assume
you declined to answer the first question on the basis of the
marriage relationship. Is that correct? Or the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Glassman. Both, I think.
The Chairman. Both. You had no connection with the Signal
Corps, then, since December of 1944?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Would you stand and be sworn?
In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
TESTIMONY OF DAVID AYMAN
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. May we have your full name for the record?
Mr. Ayman. David Ayman, A-y-m-a-n. 1612 Lincoln Place,
Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Ayman, were you ever in the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In what year?
Mr. Ayman. 1942 to 1946. Let me clarify that. I was in the
Signal Corps but in the last year I was attached to the air
force.
Mr. Cohn. You were in the Signal Corps but from 1945 to
1946 you were attached to the air force?
Mr. Ayman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Were you stationed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Ayman. Two years: 1942 to 1944.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you stationed when in the air force?
Mr. Ayman. Hawaii.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work down at Monmouth?
Mr. Ayman. I was working in Officer Candidate School.
Mr. Cohn. For two years?
Mr. Ayman. I was drafted in April 1942. I took my basic
training, three or four weeks specialized training, then was
sent to Officers Candidate School and I got a commission in
October, approximately, 1942 and then I was assigned to
instruct at OCS. That was the first assignment.
Mr. Cohn. What do you do now?
Mr. Ayman. I am a school teacher.
Mr. Cohn. Do you teach at the Samuel Tilden High School?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Ayman. I have been at Samuel Tilden since 1936.
Mr. Cohn. You have taught there continuously since 1936?
Mr. Ayman. Except time in the army or leave of absence for
official business.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Teachers Union? \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ Accused of Communist leanings, the Teachers Union of New York
was expelled from the American Federation of Teachers in 1940 and
affiliated with the United Public Workers of America, a CIO union. In
1952 and 1953 it was investigated by the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been associated with any Communists
in the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. Bella Dodd is a Communist.\2\ That is the only
one officially I would know. I know no other one of my own
knowledge.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ Dr. Bella V. Dodd (1904-1969) served as legislative
representative for the Teachers Union from 1938 to 1944, before
formally joining the Communist party and being elected to its national
committee. She was expelled from the party in 1949, and later discussed
her experiences in testimony before the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee and in an autobiography, School of Darkness (New York:
P.J. Kenedy, 1954).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Cohn. Do you have reasonable grounds to believe there
are others who are Communists?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, with the exception of Bella Dodd,
you have never known a person you believed to be a Communist in
the Teachers Union. Is that right?
Mr. Ayman. That is right, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever represent any teachers, Teachers
Union members, with the New York Board of Education in any
respect?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Ayman. I represented some people before Moskoff, who
does some work for the Board of Education. He is the counsel
for the committee for the Board of Education interrogating
individuals, I presume, on the basis of information he has
about them.
Mr. Cohn. And you represented some of those persons?
Mr. Ayman. As teacher-advisor.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of those persons Communists?
Mr. Ayman. None of them ever told me they were Communists
and I never asked them.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of them claim the Fifth Amendment when
questioned?
Mr. Ayman. No. The Fifth Amendment was not claimed in my
presence.
Mr. Cohn. Was the Fifth Amendment ever claimed?
Mr. Ayman. No, not while I was there.
Mr. Cohn. I don't care whether you were there. Did you ever
hear that any of those persons you represented as teacher-
advisor claimed the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I never heard it.
Mr. Cohn. How many people did you so represent?
Mr. Ayman. Eight or ten.
Mr. Cohn. What are their names?
Mr. Ayman. Let's see. The last one was Lee Naguid. That is
the last one I represented. The one before that was Louis
Auerbach. Another one I represented was Samuel Chapman. The
other names don't occur to me at the moment. Those are the last
three.
One other, Mr. Klein. I don't know what his first name is.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of those teachers suspended as a result
of the hearing before Mr. Moskoff?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. One, Auerbach. I didn't represent Mr.
Auerbach before Mr. Moskoff, when he appeared. I represented
Mr. Auerbach before Mr. Perch.
Mr. Cohn. Now, how many of these were suspended as a
result----
Mr. Ayman. The only one I know, can think of, is Mr.
Auerbach. The others have not been suspended.
Mr. Cohn. Why was Mr. Auerbach suspended?
Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer any questions that Mr.
Perch asked him.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't he claim the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership.
Mr. Cohn. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did that give you reasonable grounds to believe
he was a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You don't think somebody who refuses to answer
the question of whether or not they are a Communist, you don't
think that furnishes reasonable grounds to believe that person
is a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. It is hard for me to make a judgment of a thing
like that. There are things a person may believe in. He may
feel this type of thing doesn't involve this type of activity.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe Communists should teach in the New
York school system?
Mr. Ayman. I believe a person ought to be judged.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe a Communist party member should
teach in the New York City school system? That is a very simple
question. Just answer ``yes'' or ``no.''
Mr. Ayman. Well, my own feeling about this, that answer is
not quite as simple as you put it.
Mr. Cohn. Answer ``yes'' or ``no,'' then you can make any
explanation you care to give us.
Mr. Ayman. My answer would be ``yes,'' provided, of course,
this person did not engage in activities in the school system
in which he used his position to officially propagandize for
the Communist party or any other group.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think that a member of the Communist party
would not use any position he held to propagandize and attempt
in every way to aid the cause of the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Well, I would say this. Any person who believed
strongly in any position he held, it might be possible for him,
not necessarily and I believe necessarily that he would not
actually use his position to do that. It is possible for him to
do that.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe it is possible for a Communist
party member not to use any position he holds?
Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that?
Mr. Cohn. I think you should be. You are teaching children
in the public schools in New York.
Mr. Ayman. My function as advisor was to see that these
people don't get rattled. I am not legal counsel. I can give
them no legal advice. They wanted somebody to go up there and
make sure they were represented.
The Chairman. Is it your position that a man who is a
member of the Communist party should not be barred from a
teaching job unless it is first proven that he is using his
membership-unless it is proved he is teaching communism to his
students?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. That was not my position.
The Chairman. Do you think that mere membership in the
Communist party and nothing else should bar him from teaching?
Mr. Ayman. Off-hand, I would say no.
The Chairman. You would say it takes more than that?
Mr. Ayman. That is my opinion. My feeling is this.
The Chairman. What more would it take?
Mr. Ayman. Some act, some either technical act as a teacher
in the classroom or in connection with the school system which
he used to actually propagandize in one form or another about
this proposition that should cause him to be eliminated.
The Chairman. You realize the more clever the Communist is,
the less possibility of catching him in the acts?
Mr. Ayman. That is possible.
The Chairman. You might catch the dumb ones, but the clever
ones you wouldn't catch. You would say that unless you catch
the Communist, know that he attended Communist meetings, unless
you catch him in the overt act of propagandizing, unless you
catch him doing something like that, you should keep him on as
a teacher?
Mr. Ayman. Not only Communist, anybody else. Fascists. I
believe in some other kinds of systems, the same thing is true
about those individuals as well.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the Communist
movement?
Mr. Ayman. Not enough to make judgment about it.
The Chairman. Do you know what is meant by being under
Communist party discipline?
Mr. Ayman. Well, in my mind, under discipline, he accepts
the dictates from the Communist party. I assume it means----
The Chairman. Do you mean in good standing of the party and
must obey orders?
Mr. Ayman. I can't make such a statement. I am not a
member.
The Chairman. If you were told now--witnesses have
testified over and over, witnesses the government considers
reliable men, who were active in the Communist party--Bella
Dodd whom you knew testified such is the case; that a member in
good standing is under Communist discipline and obeys orders.
Would you have any reason to doubt that? Do you have any
information to the contrary?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I do not have information to the
contrary.
The Chairman. Don't you think a teacher, regardless of how
good a teacher he might be, should be a free agent and should
not be under the discipline of any organizations, particularly
the Communist party dominated by Moscow?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I believe that not only about those
but everybody else.
The Chairman. Do you still say someone under Communist
party discipline should be allowed to teach, realizing they are
not free agents, no freedom of expression but expression of the
Communist line. Do you still say you think such a man should be
teaching our children unless he is caught in the overt act?
Mr. Ayman. My own feeling is, as I said before, that is a
belief I have. Whether it is a good belief or a bad one, it
would be a question of somebody besides myself to be able to
answer.
The Chairman We are not trying to change your beliefs. We
are just curious as to what your beliefs are on communism. We
are not concerned with your other beliefs. We are concerned
with your belief or attitude toward the international
conspiracy.
Mr. Ayman. The international conspiracy, I am not in a
position to make judgment. I am not sufficiently well
acquainted with it. It is not in my field. If it is, I think
government officials knowing these facts, being aware of it,
they ought to take appropriate action. If they can show that
persons have performed acts as part of this conspiracy, well,
obviously they ought to do something about it.
Mr. Jones. Are you married?
Mr. Ayman. No, not now.
Mr. Jones. You were before?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
Mr. Jones. Was your wife a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Jones. Do you have any children?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Jones. I assume if you did have children you would not
object to them receiving their entire education under a
Communist teacher?
Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Jones. You said it.
Mr. Ayman. If these people were Communists and if they did
not use their position to propagandize for their beliefs, I
would have no objection to them any more than a person who is a
Fascist not using his position. I would say it was perfectly
all right, American principal. If they were using that
position, then I would say that person should not be permitted
to teach my children or anybody else's.
The Chairman. In other words, you wouldn't object to having
a Communist teacher teach your children?
Mr. Ayman. No.
The Chairman Would you have any objection to having a man
convicted of rape a number of times, even though be was not
caught committing rape in the classroom----
Mr. Ayman. I don't think you can make that comparison. I
assume a man convicted of rape would be sentenced to jail for a
number of years and not permitted to get a license. I don't see
how those two things are relevant.
The Chairman. Suppose he did not advocate rape in the
classroom, but had been convicted several times; that he was
not in jail. Would you have any objection?
Mr. Ayman. I don't know how he would get a license. If he
didn't use his position in the classroom, I don't see what the
objection would be.
The Chairman. If you were looking for a babysitter, you and
your wife were going out----
Mr. Ayman. I would think twice before using him as a
babysitter.
The Chairman. Do you still have a reserve commission in the
army?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been in the Reserves?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were never in the army?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I was in the army. I was in what is
called AUS.
The Chairman. What is AUS?
Mr. Ayman. Army of the United States as distinguished from
the United States Army--people commissioned through the ranks
through OCS or some such things.
The Chairman. Did you have a commission?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman What was your rank?
Mr. Ayman. I came out as a 1st lieutenant.
The Chairman You no longer have the reserve commission?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman No connection with the army?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Jones. What do you teach at Samuel Tilden?
Mr. Ayman. Mathematics.
Mr. Jones. Would you agree with this statement; that the
Communist party is a conspiracy to accomplish the violent
overthrow of this government?
Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment of this.
I don't know enough about this business.
Mr. Jones. Sir, you have been a teacher a good number of
years. Don't you read the newspapers?
Mr. Ayman. Yes. I know people believe it. I know it is
possible to believe it. On the basis of my own knowledge, my
own analysis of this thing, I don't have information to be able
to make such a judgment.
Mr. Rainville. How would you determine whether they were
using their position to propagandize on your children or any
children in your care.
Mr. Ayman. Somebody would have to observe these
individuals.
Mr. Rainville. But this individual would not be you? Who is
going to do that?
Mr. Ayman. It is the supervisor's function to observe the
teacher's fitness to teach.
Mr. Rainville. But your particular job while you are a
teacher was to represent those teachers against such
supervisory controls? You said you were a Teachers Union
representative.
Mr. Ayman. I was advisor to those people, and as such I
appeared before the supervisory body, Mr. Moskoff, to help the
teachers. I didn't come to protect these people. My function
was, if I thought or they thought, the individual, that he was
being asked questions which he felt wasn't appropriate, he had
a right to ask me my reaction. My reaction in almost ever case
was: ``This is your job here.''
The Chairman. Did you advise Auerbach?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I didn't advise him.
The Chairman. The question was: Did you advise Auerbach to
answer in regard to his Communist connections?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did he discuss that with you?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were there as his advisor?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, I was his advisor. As a matter of fact, I
met him five minutes before we went in to see Mr. Perch. In
other words, here is what happened. Somebody would call and ask
me if I would be willing to appear with this individual and I
would say, ``Well, this person is entitled to be represented,
to get some person who will represent them, and I will be
willing to go.'' In most cases I hadn't seen some of these
people. Met them maybe five minutes before we went into Mr.
Moskoff's office.
The Chairman. After Mr. Auerbach made his statement, did
you make any statement in his behalf before Mr. Moskoff or
whoever was there?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do I understand that you did nothing
whatsoever in the hearing of Mr. Auerbach?
Mr. Ayman. Nothing officially.
Mr. Auerbach, when he was questioned he called me aside and
asked me if he should answer. My answer to him was: ``You are
involved. You have to decide for yourself what you are going to
do.'' The word advisor, in this case, is not technically
correct verbiage. I can't really give a person advice which
might involve a legal question. I am not qualified.
The Chairman. In any event, when he called you aside and
asked you whether he should answer these questions about
alleged Communist activities, you didn't advise him to answer
or not to answer?
Mr. Ayman. That is correct.
The Chairman. So you didn't feel he should answer?
Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I wasn't in a position to make judgment.
The Chairman. Do you think now that teachers should tell
Mr. Moskoff when they are called before him whether or not they
are Communists?
Mr. Ayman. If these people feel they want to tell him.
The Chairman. I am asking you whether you think they
should?
Mr. Ayman. For myself, I would answer.
The Chairman. You are an advisor-teacher and I am asking
you a simple question. Do you think teachers who are called
before Mr. Moskoff should tell him truthfully about their
Communist party activities? Do you think that a teacher called
before Mr. Moskoff or any responsible member of the Board of
Education should truthfully tell about any Communist activities
in which they have been engaged or do you think they should
refuse?
Mr. Ayman. Each one must decide. It is a very hard thing to
tell somebody. Each person must decide on the basis of his own
convictions as to what answer he should give. I can't put
myself in the position of telling these people what they should
or should not do.
The Chairman. Do you still think you are a competent
advisor to these teachers if you don't know?
Mr. Ayman. I am a competent advisor only in the sense that
I would go and appear before Mr. Moskoff to give advice. As to
whether or not they should answer or not, that I am not
qualified to do.
The Chairman. As of today you can't decide whether all
teachers should be required to honestly tell about their
Communist activities to responsible superiors?
Mr. Ayman. That is substantially what I said before.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings of the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Were you ever asked to attend meetings of the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend meetings then or later
that you thought were Communist party meetings or dominated by
Communists?
Mr. Ayman. I don't believe so.
The Chairman. Would you say that the Teachers Union is
Communist dominated?
Mr. Ayman. Some people say it is. From my own knowledge I
am not prepared to make such a statement.
The Chairman. You are a member of that union?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you hold any office?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. And the general feeling is that the greater
part of the teachers are Communists in the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. There are a number of people who believe that.
The Chairman. That is the general feeling, isn't it?
Mr. Ayman. I would say ``yes.''
The Chairman. Do you know that teachers who are anti-
Communist do not join that union?
Mr. Ayman. Probably so, although there are people in it who
are anti-Communist. I don't know.
The Chairman. You are still a member?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you been a member?
Mr. Ayman. I have been a member of the union since 1932 or
1933.
The Chairman. Do you intend to retain your membership?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, unless it is declared illegal. From my
point of view it represents the best interests of teachers.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask Mr. Auerbach whether he was
a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask him whether he taught
communism in the schools?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. But you still felt you should represent him
and not ask him whether he was a Communist or not and not ask
him whether he taught Communism in the schools?
Mr. Ayman. It is a difficult problem in the school system.
People who are called up before Mr. Moskoff have to have
someone represent them. They are asked to bring along a
teacher-adviser for any reason. If you struck some child you
have a right to be represented by a teacher-advisor. It is
obvious that lots of people would not go up as an advisor,
because as you can gather from this, it is implied that one who
goes up is himself a Communist.
The Chairman. You said you went up as advisor, yet you did
not advise them. The man called you back and asked you for your
advice as to whether he should tell the truth about his
Communist activities, and you say you refused to advise him.
What did you advise him on?
Mr. Ayman. I gave no advice. My function is if there is any
difficulties.
The Chairman. What kind of difficulty?
Mr. Ayman. Suppose they would say, ``Are you a member of
the Communist party?''
The Chairman. He did, didn't he?
Mr. Ayman. Either he would turn to me and say, ``Should I
answer that question'' and I would say, ``That is up to you.''
The Chairman. So you wouldn't advise him?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. So you weren't there to advise?
Mr. Ayman. The technical term they used was ``advisor.''
That is the term they used. If they said teacher-
representative, it would be more in keeping with the meaning of
the way the person does.
The Chairman. Did you talk to Mr. Moskoff in his behalf?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you talk to anyone in his behalf?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. In all cases where you represented people as
advisor, were they accused of Communist activities?
Mr. Ayman. Well, what they were accused of, Mr. Moskoff and
in one case Mr. Perch, that was Mr. Auerbach, the statement was
made that there was reason to believe they were connected with
the Communist party or Communist activities.
The Chairman. In other words, all cases represented by you,
they were accused of Communist activities.
Mr. Ayman. The statement was made that there was reason to
believe. There was not an overt statement in some cases that
they were actually engaged in Communist party activities.
The Chairman. Did you ask them before you advised them
whether the statements were true?
Mr. Ayman. They weren't given any charges----
The Chairman. Call it statement, allegations----
Mr. Ayman. No, sir, I did not.
The Chairman. So you felt you could advise them without
knowing if the charges were true?
Mr. Ayman. The word advise--I was simply a representative
not to perform technical duties.
The Chairman. How could you advise then if you didn't ask
them?
Mr. Ayman. That is not the function of the so-called
representative.
The Chairman. You say you have never been solicited to join
the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Maybe Bella Dodd may have solicited me.
The Chairman. Don't you remember?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever pay any money that went to the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Do you subscribe to the Daily Worker?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any Communist papers?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you belong to any Communist fronts, other
than the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever belonged to any organizations
that have been listed by the attorney general as subversive or
Communist fronts?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
Mr. Rainville. It is my understanding you did not think it
was objectionable to have Communist teachers so long as he
didn't use his position to propagandize, so if these teachers
said they were Communists, you would still have defended them
since you think that is all right?
Mr. Ayman. If they did not use their position in any way.
Mr. Rainville. Then that is the reason you didn't ask them.
You didn't care?
Mr. Ayman. I certainly wasn't going to ask them.
The Chairman. Weren't you interested in whether they were
teaching their students communism?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You weren't interested?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I thought you said that was the one condition
under which Communists should not be allowed to teach and you
didn't even ask.
Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment. I don't
watch them as teachers. I am a classroom teacher myself. That
is the function of those who are supervisors.
Mr. Cohn. The Teachers Union is Communist-dominated?
Mr. Ayman. That is what people say. I think it isn't. I
think I made that clear. The Teachers Union represents the best
interests of teachers and as long as it does that, I think it
is a good organization.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Rose Russell?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. I don't know whether she is or not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is?
Mr. Ayman. You can ask me about anybody. Unless I know
whether they are or not I have no evidence, no way of judging.
Mr. Cohn. Unless you have evidence of your own you never
pronounce judgment on anything?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You didn't answer counsel's question as to
whether or not you think the Communist Teachers Union is
Communist-dominated?
Mr. Ayman. I say people believe----
The Chairman. Do you think it is? You have been in it a
long time?
Mr. Ayman. From my experience I don't think so. My own
opinion. As long as it represents the best interest of
teachers----
Mr. Rainville. You have been in the Teachers Union since
1932 but I thought you said you didn't become a teacher until
1936?
Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I didn't say that. I started to teach in
1927. They asked me about Tilden High School. I don't think I
started to teach there until 1936.
The Chairman. You can consider yourself under subpoena and
we will notify your counsel when you are to return.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE FRIEDMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSELS,
WILLIAM A. CONSIDINE AND JACK FISHER)
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? In the matter
now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Friedman. I do.
The Chairman. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Considine. William A. Considine, 744 Broad Street,
Newark.
The Chairman. Will the witness give his full name for the
record?
Mr. Friedman. Lawrence Friedman.
The Chairman. Who is the other gentleman?
Mr. Considine. Associate counsel.
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Considine. Jack Fisher.
The Chairman. I don't think either of you gentlemen have
appeared before the committee before, so I will run over the
rules of the committee briefly.
The witness can advise with counsel any time he cares to.
He can interrupt the testimony. If you want a confidential
meeting with your client, we will arrange a room for that at
any time during the meeting.
Mr. Cohn. Are you at Belock Instrument Corporation now?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
there?
Mr. Friedman. Almost three years.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
Mr. Friedman. Reeves Instrument Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. For how long?
Mr. Friedman. Five years.
Mr. Cohn. And what did you do before that?
Mr. Friedman. I was in the navy, sir, for two years. I
worked at Camp Evans Signal Corps Laboratory for two years.
The Chairman. What kind of work did you do in the navy?
Mr. Friedman. I was an electronics technicians mate in the
navy.
Mr. Cohn. When were you at Evans?
Mr. Friedman. 1942 to 1944.
Mr. Cohn. When you were at Evans who were you living with?
Mr. Friedman. Ralph Dunn.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
Mr. Friedman. I was living at a rooming house in Ashbury
Park and I also lived in a dormitory at the camp installation.
Mr. Cohn. Who else lived at that rooming house?
Mr. Friedman. Nobody associated with the laboratory. There
were several other girls and boys, but nobody associated with
the lab.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir. I met him when I was working at
Reeves.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Friedman. I worked at Reeves from 1946 to 1951 and it
was during that period.
Mr. Cohn. You had not known him before?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work?
Mr. Friedman. I worked on the third floor in the tool
design department and he worked on the second floor in the main
engineering office.
Mr. Cohn. And did you know him socially at all?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir, not at all.
Mr. Cohn. How frequently did you see him around Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Very infrequently. We were not associated on
the same project.
Mr. Cohn. While Sobell was at Reeves were you handling any
project for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Any classified?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did they involve radar?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work on any of those projects?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you do any work on the same project Sobell
was working on?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Are you familiar with the projects in general
terms?
Mr. Friedman. I know what the projects are, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know the project Sobell worked on?
Mr. Friedman. I only knew it by name. I was not closely
associated with those projects.
Mr. Cohn. What do you recall?
Mr. Friedman. I believe it was a plotting board program for
the Air Corps. As far as I know, that is the only project he
was associated with.
Mr. Cohn. What else did they have there at the time you
were there?
Mr. Friedman. Well, of course we had many programs. We were
doing the Mark 5 Bomb Site for the navy. Of course, we had
these Signal Corps programs and the plotting board program.
Mr. Cohn. What is the plotting board program?
Mr. Friedman. Sir, I am not too familiar with it, just in
general terms. It was plotting the inside of a trailer.
May I ask one question? Some of this information may be
classified.
It was associated with 584 Signal Corps Radar. That is just
about all I know about the program, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did it have anything to do with 527 and 627?
Mr. Friedman. I don't know what that means. I am not
familiar with those designations.
Mr. Cohn. Now, in connection with the Signal Corps project,
would people come from time to time from Evans Laboratory down
to Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of them speak with Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You can recall no instance where anyone came from
Monmouth and spoke with Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. No, I don't, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Friedman. Aaron Coleman was the project engineer on the
414A project. I was on the 414A program. I was one of the
mechanical engineers on the program.
The Chairman. As you perhaps know, the army intelligence
raided Coleman's home and picked up some forty-three secret
documents which would be of great value to the enemy.
Do you have any knowledge of his having removed those
documents?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir. No knowledge whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Friedman, do you know a man by the name of
Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When did you meet Mr. Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. I would say 1949. He was associated in some
fashion with the 414A program and 414A Signal Corps project.
During the demonstration of the program I recall he did come up
to Reeves Instrument Corporation to witness the demonstration.
Mr. Cohn. When he came to Reeves did you see him in the
company of Morton Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. Did Sobell witness the demonstration?
Mr. Friedman. I don't think so.
Mr. Cohn. How many people worked at Reeves then?
Mr. Friedman. I think, at that time, around one thousand.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether Greenblum was associated
with Sobell up there?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir. I do not.
Mr. Cohn. That was the first time you met Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him better?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the only time you saw him?
Mr. Friedman. Subsequent to that time I have met him twice.
At the present time the Belock Instrument Corporation is about
to complete a Signal Corps contract and Greenblum was in some
small fashion associated with this program, associated with one
phase of the program. I believe I had occasion to meet him
twice.
Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Belock, head of your company, formerly
with Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he the one who hired Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. I can't answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Is this Belock Company doing classified work with
the Signal Corps now?
Mr. Friedman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I don't have anything more of this
witness.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never attended Young Communist League
meetings?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Never contributed to it?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. I may say in your presence that we will not
give you to the press or anyone else unless you give it
yourself. We have got to call people who are loyal in order to
pick up the loose ends. If your name is given out some people
might assume that you are guilty, so for that reason unless you
give them your name, it will not be given out.
Mr. Friedman. I would like to say, sir, that I think the
committee is doing a wonderful job and I hope you continue to
do so.
TESTIMONY OF ELBA CHASE NELSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
HAROLD I. CRAMMER)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Nelson. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get the name of counsel?
Mr. Crammer. Harold I. Crammer, of Witt and Cammer.
Mr. Cohn. May we have your name?
Mrs. Nelson. Elba Chase Nelson.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mrs. Nelson. Winter, New Hampshire.
Mr. Cohn. What is your address?
Mrs. Nelson. The address is Hillsboro Post Office.
Mr. Cohn. Are you an organizer for the Communist party?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Cohn. On what grounds?
Mrs. Nelson. It is my privilege to decline to answer under
the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. If you feel a truthful answer might tend to
incriminate you?
Mrs. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in 1936 an organizer for the Communist
party in New England?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Did you at that time know a man by the name of
Haym Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to tell us whether or not you know Dr.
Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. So the record will be clear, Yamins was the
liaison between the Signal Corps and MIT and other labs on
radar until this investigation started.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins spend time in your home on
frequent occasions between 1936 and 1949.
Mrs. Nelson. I invoke the Fifth Amendment and I decline
answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins attend Communist party meetings at
your home in New Hampshire?
Mrs. Nelson. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the
same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present at meetings attended by Mr.
Yamins and Dr. Miriam Udins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard Mr. Yamins discuss classified
radar material?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Has he discussed that in the presence of members
of the Communist party?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen Mr. Yamins recently?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for the information. One
other question; I assume you will decline to answer it. Isn't
it a fact that your home was used as headquarters for Communist
cell meetings at which certain members of the Signal Corps
discussed the work they were doing?
Mrs. Nelson. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to say
that I know absolutely nothing about Fort Monmouth. I had never
heard of the town, didn't know where it was located until I
read it in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about Mr. Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about any of the men
working in the Signal Corps Laboratory?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer. As I said, I had never
heard of Fort Monmouth or Evans Laboratory before I read it in
the newspaper.
The Chairman. You had never heard Yamins mention the
laboratory at Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that. You just got
through telling us you had never heard the name Fort Monmouth
or Evans Laboratory, so we can ask you some questions.
Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else in your home
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Nelson. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you sure of that?
Mrs. Nelson. Very sure.
The Chairman. I want to tell you for your benefit that we
have evidence to the contrary so you will be fully protected
and can't claim at some future time that you were trapped into
this.
Having that information, will you tell us again that you
never heard Yamins or anyone else mention Evans, the Evans
Laboratory or Fort Monmouth? Is that correct.
Mrs. Nelson. Will you repeat that.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else ever
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth? By Evans I refer to Evans
Laboratory at Fort Monmouth.
Mrs. Nelson. I want to repeat that I have never heard of
Fort Monmouth until I read it in the newspapers.
The Chairman. What is the answer to my question? Yes or No?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever see any material brought into
your home by anyone either stamped secret, confidential or
restricted?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear radar discussed in your
home?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Are you on the payroll of the Communist party
as of today?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist in 1950?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Jones. Mrs. Nelson, if anyone stated to the contrary
that Professor Yamins had discussed radar material and
information in your home, would they be lying?
Mrs. Nelson. They would be lying, sir.
The Chairman. You may step down. You will consider yourself
under subpoena. We may want you later. We will give your lawyer
sufficient notice.
Mrs. Nelson. I would like to say to the committee, I wasn't
served with the subpoena until yesterday morning at 9:30 and I
live over three hundred miles from New York and my husband is
ill. I would like a little more notice, although I see no
reason why I was called here in the first place.
The Chairman. May I have the record clear at this time that
apparently you weren't found by the marshal up there until
yesterday, but you had notice a week ago that you were being
called and made a statement to the press at that time about it.
If the marshal can't find you, if you absent yourself from your
home, that is not the fault of the committee.
Let me ask you this?
Is it correct that you made a statement to the papers in
regard to being called?
Mrs. Nelson. I did not make a statement. The reporter
called me and informed me I had been subpoenaed.
Do you imply that the marshal was at my home trying to
serve the subpoena?
The Chairman. The marshal had been looking for you a week.
Mrs. Nelson. I beg your pardon. You are absolutely
incorrect. I was home. I want to make that very clear.
The Chairman. Ask the officer to remove the witness.
Mrs. Nelson. I can walk.
The Chairman. We will notify your counsel when we want you
back here for public sessions.
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT S. BENNETT
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Bennett. I do.
The Chairman. Your name is Herbert Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. Herbert S. Bennett.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed Mr. Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. Dynamic Electronic Corporation of New York.
Mr. Cohn. And do they do any government work there?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Any classified work?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. For what branch of the service?
Mr. Bennett. We have classified contracts with the U.S. Air
Force.
Mr. Cohn. Does any of it involve radar?
Mr. Bennett. Not radar as such, no. It is electronic
communications would be closer I think.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Bennett. Since March 1952.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work before that?
Mr. Bennett. Signal Corps. Electronic Warfare Center, Fort
Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you working at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Bennett. Since August 1950. I am not sure of the month
but it was 1950.
Mr. Cohn. What did you do before that?
Mr. Bennett. I was an engineer at the U.S. Air Force,
Watson Laboratories in Eatontown, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you at Eatontown?
Mr. Bennett. Since June 1946.
Mr. Cohn. And where did you work before June of 1946?
Mr. Bennett. In the Armed Service Signal Corps from October
1942 until June of 1946 except for terminal leave which
actually ended in August.
Mr. Cohn. Were you station at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Bennett. For a period of, I think, approximately
February 1943 until May 1943.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you from 1940 to 1942?
Mr. Bennett. That would probably cover three phases, I
imagine. I was with New York Signal Corps Procurement District
from March 1939 and I think that whole outfit moved to
Philadelphia.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever part of Signal Corps Inspection?
Mr. Bennett. I was in the New York Signal Corps Procurement
Division, Inspection Division.
Mr. Cohn. During the time you were working in the Signal
Corps did you have access to classified material?
Mr. Bennett. Certainly while in the service.
Mr. Cohn. Is there any point which you were not cleared for
classified material?
Mr. Bennett. I think at the very beginning I filled out
some forms which were probably for clearance.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Bennett. Well, I was told he was at CCNY. I actually do
not remember him from there. He was in inspection. I vaguely
remember him from inspection.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him when you were in Signal Corps
Inspection?
Mr. Bennett. I probably came into contact with him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any recollection of coming into
contact with him?
Mr. Bennett. I have not. There were many inspectors.
Mr. Cohn. You don't remember him being there at all?
Mr. Bennett. I remember a name. I came there in March 1939
and----
Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether you knew him there?
Mr. Bennett. I want to explain that it is rather vague in
my mind.
Mr. Cohn. I would just rather have you tell me whether or
not you knew him?
Mr. Bennett. I can't honestly say I knew him. I remember a
name. There were three Rosenbergs on the roster.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Bennett. I would say vaguely. I don't think I remember
him from there.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember him from any place?
Mr. Bennett. That would be the only place for even a casual
contact as far as I know.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work with you at any time?
Mr. Bennet. He never worked directly with me.
Mr. Cohn. You mean on your assignment as inspectors?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he ever under your supervision?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. He did not?
Mr. Bennett. I was assistant to the chief of the inspection
division and in that sense if he was under my supervision, it
would be in a very vague way.
Mr. Cohn. Now, in as far as you recall-you don't recall
ever having met him?
Mr. Bennett. I cannot truthfully recall having met him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Bennett. Morton Sobell I recall from school. He was in
electrical engineering school at the same time I was at CCNY. I
knew him there.
Mr. Cohn. You knew him there?
Mr. Bennett. Yes. I think I was definitely in classes that
he was in at that time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I had no relations with him that
would even tend to bring that to my attention.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know any of your classmates as
Communists?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I knew of no classmates who were
Communists. I would like to explain why.
Mr. Cohn. Don't explain why if you don't know.
Were you ever asked to go to a meeting of the Young
Communist League?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever asked to go to Communist meetings
of any kind?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. None of the people in school with you or at the
Signal Corps at Fort Monmouth did anything or said anything
which might lead you to believe that they might be Communist?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I have nothing further.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. You are excused.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN LEVINSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WALTER N. KERNAN)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Levinson. Yes. I do.
The Chairman. Could we get the name of counsel for the
record?
Mr. Kernan. Walter Kernan, Walter N., associated with
Choate, Hall and Stewart, 30 State Street, Boston,
Massachusetts.
The Chairman. Now, will the witness give his name for the
record?
Mr. Levinson. Norman Levinson.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Levinson. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been at
MIT?
Mr. Levinson. Since February 1937.
Mr. Cohn. What type of work have you been doing?
Mr. Levinson. Mathematics.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing before you began teaching
there?
Mr. Levinson. I am an academic appointee.
Mr. Cohn. Now, have you ever done any laboratory work?
Mr. Levinson. At MIT? I have not.
Mr. Cohn. At any place?
Mr. Levinson. Laboratory work, no.
Wait a while. I was associated with someone who did some
laboratory work at one time, at Worchester.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. I do not. I have never met him. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know who he is?
Mr. Levinson. I read about him in the newspapers. I heard
about him from Mr. [Stuart C.] Rand, who I know as an attorney
and who is the attorney of Mr. Yamins. I heard about him
yesterday when I went to the office of Choate, Hall and
Stewart.
Mr. Cohn. I assume that Mr. Rand advised you of the fact
that Mr. Yamins who is under inquiry by this subcommittee
testified here that you were one of the persons he had grounds
to believe was a Communist? Was that called to your attention?
Mr. Levinson. Do you want me to say what Mr. Rand told me?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. I don't care particularly what Mr. Rand told
you. I want to know if he communicated to you the fact that Mr.
Yamins has testified that you were one of the persons he
believed to be a Communist.
Mr. Levinson. Mr. Rand told me Mr. Yamins had said that he
had reason to believe that my sister was a Communist. Mr. Rand
wasn't sure whether he knew I was a Communist or not.
Mr. Cohn. Is your sister named Pauline Levinson?
Mr. Levinson. That was her maiden name. Her name is Nobel
now.
Mr. Cohn. What does she do now?
Mr. Levinson. She is a housewife.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever worked at MIT?
Mr. Levinson. No.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever done any work for the government?
Mr. Levinson. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about her husband?
Mr. Levinson. He is a physician.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever followed any calling, done anything
other than being a housewife?
Mr. Levinson. At what date would you like me to begin?
Mr. Cohn. Just give it to me in general terms.
Mr. Levinson. She was a student at Radcliffe, graduated in
1934, majored in mathematics. She decided she didn't like
mathematics and went to the New York School for Social Work.
She took the course there and was a social worker in New York.
I don't know exactly what agencies. Several, I believe, and she
got married sometime, I believe, in the early forties.
Mr. Cohn. Has your sister ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. When Mr. Rand told me her name had come up I
phoned her and talked with her. She doesn't recall ever meeting
Mr. Yamins. However, Mr. Rand mentioned that Mr. Yamins had
passed by the home of my parents where my sister and I lived
with a man by the name of Wechsler, Harry Wechsler. I remember
Mr. Wechsler. He was a corrector for a professor at Harvard and
I took some courses as an undergraduate. I do know the name
Wechsler. This was the phone conversation. Mr. Kernans was in
the office of Mr. Rand upstairs and I gathered Mr. Yamins was
in the room with him. Mr. Yamins told him there was a bulldog
in the house and there was a Boston Terrier there. There is
that evidence. That was the summer of 1937.
Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether your sister has
ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. Yes. She told me on the phone that she joined
the Communist party sometime after she came to this New York
School of Social Work, sometime after the fall of 1937. In the
first year of that school she joined the Communist party. In
about 1942 she began to drift away.
Mr. Cohn. What was she doing when she joined the party?
Mr. Levinson. She was a student at the New York School for
Social Workers.
Mr. Cohn. Was she a member of the party in New York City?
Mr. Levinson. Presumably.
Mr. Cohn. From 1937 to 1942?
Mr. Levinson. Either 1937--she wasn't clear. She didn't
remember exactly. In September 1937 she went to the New York
School and in her first academic year there, 1937 or 1938, she
joined the Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever talked with the FBI? Do you know?
Mr. Levinson. I don't know but I think she probably hasn't.
The Chairman. Would she be willing? I know you can't speak
for your sister, but do you think she would be willing to talk
to the bureau and give them all the information she might have,
even though the information would be rather old?
Mr. Levinson. I'd be willing to call her up and try to
persuade her.
Mr. Cohn. But you have no recollection of Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. No. I remember Harry Wechsler. Mr. Yamins can
describe the place. He remembered the dog. In all probability
he had been at the house. I got the impression from Mr. Rand
that Mr. Yamins is an honest man. It seems quite likely. My
sister was a good looking girl and any number of men passed by
to see her.
Mr. Cohn. You do not know Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. I don't believe I met him.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, I was a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. When did you join the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. I joined the Communist party in the fall of
1931.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you join?
Mr. Levinson. Boston, Massachusetts.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing at the time you joined?
Mr. Levinson. I was an instructor in mathematics at MIT.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you remain in
the party?
Mr. Levinson. About eight years, a little less. 1937 to
1945. I think I was all out by the spring of 1945.
Mr. Cohn. Have you talked to the FBI?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Levinson. Several times.
Mr. Cohn. When was the first time?
Mr. Levinson. The first time was early in April, I think,
of this year and I didn't say much to them then. I had been
subpoenaed before the Velde committee [House Un-American
Activities Committee] and sort of wanted to get that off my
mind. They arranged for subsequent appointments. After that I
had some sessions with the FBI agent. Do you want his name?
Mr. Cohn. No.
The Chairman. You didn't take the Fifth Amendment before
the Velde committee?
Mr. Levinson. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you testify before the Velde committee in
open session or closed session?
Mr. Levinson. Open session.
The Chairman. Who recruited you into the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. Well, I sort of went over this a little bit
with the FBI. It is pretty complicated and it will sound a
little weird.
Nobody recruited me. I actually walked into the
headquarters of the Communist party of Boston and met Mr. Phil
Frankfeld and signed up.
The Chairman. Was there anybody you knew while in the
Communist party who is today working for the United States
government?
Mr. Levinson. No.
The Chairman. Is there anybody whom you knew in the
Communist party who has worked for the Army Signal Corps or any
related organization?
Mr. Levinson. No.
The Chairman. Or any laboratory where they might have been
doing work on radar or for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Levinson. Let's see. This goes back to the war period.
Let's see. Wendell Furry.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\3\ Wendell Furry later testified in executive session on November
4, 1953.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Chairman. Did he have anything to do with radar?
Mr. Levinson. He was in the radiation lab. He was a
theoretical physicist.
The Chairman. What is Mr. Furry doing now?
Mr. Levinson. He is a professor of physics at Harvard. He
was also before the Velde committee.
The Chairman. Did he testify?
Mr. Levinson. He gave fairly long testimony except on
certain questions he invoked the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. He is teaching at Harvard now?
Mr. Levinson. That is right.
The Chairman. What did he do in connection with radar?
Mr. Levinson. Well, all the work of the radiation
laboratory has been published. He wrote part of the volume of
theories of antennas.
The Chairman. At MIT? The Signal Corps project at MIT, was
it?
Mr. Levinson. Gentlemen, I don't know that. I don't think
so. This was during the war. It was not electronic radar. It
was NDIC, which he was interested. I think there were a lot of
people interested, but as I say, various stuff was published
after the war. It was rather theoretical, considerably
theoretical.
The Chairman. And he is now teaching at Harvard and he
appeared before the Velde committee? Now, is he the only one
you can think of?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I think that will be all. I don't think we
will need you again.
Just one other question. You say that in 1945 or
thereabouts you broke off connections with the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. I had certain differences, disputes with the
New Masses with them in 1944 and stopped attending meetings and
I sort of split away. Arguments with local leaders, etc.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Your name will not be
given to the press or anyone else unless you give it to them.
Mr. Levinson. I think that will not only help me but MIT.
The Chairman. The reason we don't give out names of
witnesses, we have got to call a lot of good, loyal Americans
and if we give the names of witnesses, there is always the
impression that they must have been guilty of something, which
is not true.
Thank you very much. That is all.
Mr. Kernan. Is Mr. Levinson discharged from the subpoena?
The Chairman. We will let you know if we want him again.
TESTIMONY OF LOUISE SARANT
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Sarant. I do.
The Chairman. Could we get your full name for the record
please?
Mrs. Sarant. Louise Jacqueline Sarant.
The Chairman. Where do you reside?
Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
The Chairman. What is the street address?
Mrs. Sarant. RD No. 3.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mrs. Sarant. Housewife.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mrs. Sarant. No, divorced.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name of your husband?
Mrs. Sarant. Alfred?
Mr. Cohn. When were you divorced from your husband?
Mrs. Sarant. We were divorced in 1952.
Mr. Cohn. When were you married?
Mrs. Sarant. 1945.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Sarant ever work for the Signal Corps out
at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey?
Mrs. Sarant. Not when I knew him.
Mr. Cohn. If he did it was prior to your marriage. Is that
right?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Was it in the years 1942 and 1943, approximately?
Mrs. Sarant. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Now, at the time--when did you see Mr. Sarant
last by the way?
Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago, 1950. July of 1950.
Mr. Cohn. Now, coming to the first of 1945, in that year
was Mr. Sarant an espionage agent?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You understand that unless you were involved,
the fact that he was an espionage agent would not incriminate
you, unless you, yourself, were involved. You understand that,
don't you?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe I do. I believe I understand what I
am doing when I refuse to answer a question on the ground it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mrs. Sarant, from what Mr. Sarant told you
do you know that he was engaged in espionage while working for
the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever present when Mr. Sarant, Joel Barr
and Julius Rosenberg were discussing plans concerning espionage
against the United States?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party yourself?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Are you today a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Has Mr. Sarant left this country and gone to the
Soviet Union?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you last see Mr. Sarant?
Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Was he your husband then?
Mrs. Sarant. [No answer]
The Chairman. Has he left the country?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he is in the United
States?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. When did you get your divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. 1952. A year ago.
The Chairman. Where did you get the divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. Florida.
The Chairman. In what court down in Florida?
Mrs. Sarant. I have no idea. Miami.
The Chairman. And where did they serve the papers on your
husband or did they serve them by publication?
Mrs. Sarant. Publication.
The Chairman. Do you know what address they gave in the
publication notice?
Mrs. Sarant. I think it was our last home address.
The Chairman. I believe you have got to sign an affidavit
that this is the last known address of your husband. Is that
right?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe so.
The Chairman. Is that actually the last address you know he
stopped at?
Mrs. Sarant. That is the last place I saw him.
The Chairman. Is that the last address that you know that
he had, regardless of where you saw him? In other words, did
you learn from someone else a different address he had
subsequent to that time?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Are you married now?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. What do you work at?
Mrs. Sarant. I take care of my children.
The Chairman. How many children do you have?
Mrs. Sarant. Two.
The Chairman. How old is the oldest child?
Mrs. Sarant. Seven in December.
The Chairman. Are you working at all yourself or just
taking care of your children?
Mrs. Sarant. Pardon?
The Chairman. You aren't holding down any job at all?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. How do you support yourself?
Mrs. Sarant. My father supports me.
The Chairman. You get no income from the Communist party at
this time?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I may say you waived the privilege when I
asked you about support and you stated your father supported
you.
Mr. Cohn. Is your father a Communist?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Was your father's name Victor Ross?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Where does he reside?
Mrs. Sarant. Utica, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Same address?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
The Chairman. When Mr. Sarant left did he take any
belongings with him?
Mrs. Sarant. I don't remember what he took with him.
The Chairman. Did he just walk out of the house with his
hat or did he take clothes?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe he had a suitcase. I can't tell you
what was in it.
The Chairman. What were the grounds for divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. Desertion.
The Chairman. Have you heard from Mr. Sarant in the last
three years, directly or indirectly?
Mrs. Sarant. No, I have not.
The Chairman. Not one word?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. As far as you know he disappeared from the
face of the earth?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know Joel Barr?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know Vivan Glassman?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know Joseph Levitsky?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know a man by the name of Carl
Greenberg?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Were you present at a restaurant on 34th
Street in New York with your husband and Joel Barr when
Levitsky and with him William Perl on an occasion when Joseph
Levitsky brought Carl Greenberg to that restaurant?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know William Perl?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that such
answer might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Were you yourself engaged in espionage?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Was your husband a part of the Rosenberg spy
ring while he worked for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. That will be all for the time being, Mrs.
Sarant. We will want you at a future date, so consider yourself
under subpoena.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Aaron Copland?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rainville. I had occasion in 1932 to interview some of
the Brown Shirt leaders in Chicago and at one of their homes
they had a seven-year-old boy of whom they were very proud of
the way which he talked about Hitler. He would run in the front
room and salute before Hitler's picture.
May I ask, are you teaching your children the principles of
the Communist party?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You understand that you are still under
subpoena and you will be notified when to return.
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH H. PERCOFF (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEONARD E. GOLDITCH)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that in the matter now
in hearing the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Percoff. I do.
Mr. Golditch. I'd like to enter my appearance.
Mr. Cohn. We'd like you to.
Mr. Golditch. My name is Leonard E. Golditch, 25 Broad
Street, New York 4, New York.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask for an adjournment at this
time. I understand from my client that he was served this
subpoena at 1:30 yesterday afternoon. He consulted me yesterday
evening about 4:30. I haven't had the opportunity to really
prepare for the hearing or ascertain what the facts are or what
the hearing is about. I would, therefore, respectfully ask the
Chairman for an adjournment so I may be able to prepare for the
hearing and the witness will be ready to reappear at any time
you telephone. Call either his office or mine.
The Chairman. I think that is a reasonable request.
Mr. Golditch. In other words, when do you expect to be back
in the city?
The Chairman. I think I will be back a week from next
Tuesday or Wednesday. We will let you know.
Mr. Golditch. My number is Hanover 2-7550.
The Chairman. I might suggest counsel, that it will save
you considerable work if you let counsel ask some questions and
if it requires further study, you can ask for an adjournment
then.
Mr. Golditch. I would appreciate it very much if we could
have the adjournment. I might make unnecessary objections and
we may be able to save you a lot of time when I ascertain what
the hearings are about.
The Chairman. We will notify you then, perhaps a week from
Tuesday or Wednesday.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE AGUIMBAU (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
OSMOND. K. FRAENKEL)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Aguimbau. I do.
The Chairman. May we have your full name?
Mr. Aguimbau. Lawrence Baker Aguimbau.
The Chairman. And your counsel?
Mr. Fraenkel. Osmond K. Fraenkel, 120 Broadway, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Aguimbau, where do you reside?
Mr. Aguimbau. Foxboro, Massachusetts.
Mr. Cohn. And what is your occupation?
Mr. Aguimbau. I am a teacher at MIT.
Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
Mr. Aguimbau. Radio engineering.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Aguimbau. Since 1939.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever done any work for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not directly, only through MIT.
Mr. Cohn. What was the work you have done?
Mr. Aguimbau. I have worked for MIT, work that was under
government contract.
Mr. Cohn. Such as?
Mr. Aguimbau. Such as the research laboratory of
electronics.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of that work involve radar?
Mr. Aguimbau. No. It involved electronic frequency
moderation.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come across any classified information in
the course of that work?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the only project you worked on?
Mr. Aguimbau. Except for teaching. I was teaching army
specialized training. That was not under direct government
auspices.
Mr. Cohn. At MIT?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is difficult to say in detail. I know I
met him as early as 1937, casually, and I may have met him
before that. I read in the papers that we were both students at
Harvard and I assume I may have met him there.
Mr. Cohn. What year were you working on the electronic
program?
Mr. Aguimbau. 1945 until the present.
Mr. Cohn. You are working on it now?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, at the present time you don't happen
to be on government payroll, do you?
Mr. Aguimbau. That isn't government contribution.
Mr. Cohn. When did the government contribution cease?
Mr. Aguimbau. July 1.
Mr. Cohn. When were you teaching this army training?
Mr. Aguimbau. During the war.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you say you met Mr. Yamins in 1937?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him well?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not well. It is so difficult to remember in
detail. I have been trying to think of it since I saw his name
in the papers. I met him in that period a total of a half dozen
times.
Mr. Cohn. When did he come to MIT?
Mr. Aguimbau. A year or so ago. I wouldn't know that.
Something of that sort.
Mr. Cohn. And from the time you met him until he came to
MIT, you had been with him about a half dozen times?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is very hard to time with precision back
about fifteen years ago. I did meet him occasionally.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of these contacts socially?
Mr. Aguimbau. I casually met him on the street in Cambridge
while he was a graduate student at Harvard.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever at any social gathering where he
was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. On one occasion, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Aguimbau. 1937.
Mr. Cohn. Who else was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I don't know. It is a long time back
and I don't really know.
Mr. Cohn. You recall nobody who was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. No. It was a left-wingish sort of social
gathering but I had the impression he was not attending the
gathering as such but was a casual visitor. He remarked on that
to me.
Mr. Cohn. You recall that?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall anybody present besides you and
Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. The people living in the house and I think
there were others present but I don't know. I have been
thinking of this during the time and it was the first time to
the best of my knowledge that I met him and he came up and
introduced himself and apparently he knew me because he said he
had seen me at electrical meetings.
Mr. Cohn. You say it was a leftish gathering-under whose
sponsorship?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir. A school that I had attended.
Mr. Cohn. Can you be specific?
Mr. Aguimbau. Progressive Labor School.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a Communist school?
Mr. Aguimbau. Under influence, I would say.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a party member at that time?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not at that time. I was from 1937 to sometime
between 1949 and 1950. I am not sure of the exact date.
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the party?
Mr. Aguimbau. Late 1949 or early 1950.
Mr. Cohn. During part of the time you were working on the
electronics project you were a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody you met in the Communist party
or in the Communist movement who is today working directly or
indirectly for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not that I know of. I can't think of anyone
who is.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody who did any work for the
government, directly or indirectly----
Mr. Aguimbau. It has been testified that Yamins of MIT did.
He testified to that effect himself but I was not aware of
anyone in the project in which I was active being a member of
the Communist party.
The Chairman. Is this the first time you were before a
committee?
Mr. Aguimbau. I was before the Velde committee.
The Chairman. Did you ever see Mr. Yamins at leftish
gatherings?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
The Chairman. Now, when he came to MIT, did you have
occasion to know Mr. Yamins better?
Mr. Aguimbau. Only as far as business was concerned. I
never talked with him about anything other than business
matters.
Mr. Cohn. Not at all. You never had a social acquaintance?
Mr. Aguimbau. No, sir. I was at one leftish meeting with
him socially. I have the impression that I met him at the Radio
Institute at a radio engineers meeting in New York. I can not
be certain of that.
Mr. Cohn. Did he attend this Progressive Labor School?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. You did not see him there?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know who brought him to the party? What he
was doing at the party?
Mr. Aguimbau. He told me he had come by with someone; that
he was attending as a friendly matter and was not interested in
the matter himself.
Mr. Cohn. What was the matter? Was it fund raising?
Mr. Aguimbau. No, it wasn't that. Some sort of celebration.
Mr. Cohn. In connection with the school?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Having searched your memory and having thought
about it, do you still say you don't know anybody who worked
for the government, we are particularly interested in
electronics and radar, who are now or ever have been in the
government and whom you knew in the Communist movement?
Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I was in the laboratory--where I was
working I have no knowledge of anyone who was a member of the
Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. How about any place, anywhere, who was in the
Communist movement and now works for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is a very difficult thing to answer. I
wouldn't know of their government employment. I do believe that
there was one case I knew of where a man was working for the
government fifteen or twenty years ago, not in recent years.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mr. Aguimbau. I had rather not give that.
Mr. Cohn. Would you direct the witness to give that, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. I may say that I understand your feeling that
you don't want to name someone who worked in the government
fifteen or twenty years ago. It may seem very unimportant and
most likely will be unimportant. However, we are investigating
a situation concerning espionage of very startling evidence,
the Rosenberg spy ring extending into the Monmouth plant. Under
those circumstances, it is difficult to know whether or not the
man you knew as a Communist could furnish some very important
information, which might be a minor link. I think I will have
to very reluctantly order you to answer that.
Mr. Aguimbau. May I say a word. He was not--he was working
a long time back on a project of rivers or something of that
sort, nothing connected with electrical matters. It is not at
all connected. I am reasonably certain he has not worked for
the government in the last fifteen years.
The Chairman. What is he doing now?
Mr. Aguimbau. I don't know. I haven't had contact with him
in five or ten years.
The Chairman. Then how do you know he is not back in the
government? Do you know that he left the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, I could say that because he was asked to
leave that project as a security matter. He was asked to leave
that project as a security matter.
The Chairman. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't give
us the name. If you want to consult with counsel, you have a
right to at any time you'd like.
Mr. Cohn. I'd like the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. As I said before, I feel very strongly that
he is not connected with this.
Mr. Cohn. The trouble with that is this: You can't judge
that. You don't know what happened. You don't know who his
friends are in the Communist movement. You could give us a
chance to call him in executive session and he might be
perfectly friendly and happy to cooperate. You don't have the
picture the committee has and you can't take it upon yourself
to judge whether or not he can help.
The Chairman. If we hear of anybody who is a Communist in
the government we have to get the name and call him in. Unless
you feel the answer might tend to incriminate you and I'm sure
it wouldn't as you have freely answered the other question, we
ought to have the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. The situation is, he did tell me that he was
discharged on a security basis and on this basis you must have
his name.
Mr. Cohn. That isn't going to be too much help to me.
Mr. Aguimbau. You put me in a very embarrassing situation.
The Chairman. I will have to order you to give the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. I will have to refuse.
The Chairman. Well, we will have to hold you in contempt if
you refuse. You have no legal basis.
I may say, as long as the witness has competent legal
counsel, have the record show that the witness refused to
answer the question; that the chairman ordered him to answer
and he persisted in refusing and states that if he were to
answer the question, the answer would not tend to incriminate
him.
Mr. Aguimbau. I might say this. I am thoroughly willing to
cooperate with the committee as far as knowledge of the present
situation is concerned and I regard on the technical matter at
hand that this happens to be non-pertinent. If it were
pertinent, I would bring it out.
Mr. Rainville. You have already been proved wrong once. The
government discharged him as a security risk.
Mr. Aguimbau. The government discharges people as security
risks from all kinds of positions.
Mr. Rainville. They did think he was a security risk. They
found out about his Communist activities and discharged him.
The Chairman. Give us the names of every other individual
you have known as a member of the Communist party? Do you
refuse to do that too?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. I would say that in this respect I
thought this matter over. I had the same situation in the Velde
committee. The reason for doing so is that I searched my
conscience very carefully and decided there were many courses
open to me and that in particular use of the Fifth Amendment
would be appropriate but I didn't wish to do that. I wanted to
give the committee there and this committee as much information
as I can that will be of use to them in the problem at hand. I
am willing to be of help and I have forgone the use of the
privilege of the Fifth Amendment because I wished to be of
maximum assistance to the committee consistent with what I felt
was an honorable stand. If I had known of any activities that
in my opinion constitute espionage or anything of that nature,
I wouldn't use that for this purpose. This was the best thing I
honorably could do for the committee.
The Chairman. Let me say this for your information.
The committee, as you understand, has jurisdiction to
investigate anything having to do with the government,
expenditure of government funds. It is not confined solely to
the Signal Corps Laboratory, you understand, and we have been
going into the question of Communists, espionage in various
branches of the government.
Mr. Jones. As a member of the Communist party you my have
known of no espionage activities on his part. We may have other
evidence indicating that he was part of the Rosenberg spy ring.
The Chairman. It may be possible that the unimportant
evidence, unimportant to you, it may seem completely irrelevant
to you but it might be an important link in uncovering and
exposing the espionage ring which has been operating or is
operating at Fort Monmouth. For that reason I am going to order
you to give the committee (1) the names of all members of the
Communist party known to you as such who are now to your
knowledge working in the government.
Mr. Aguimbau. I know none.
The Chairman. Number two, anyone known to you who is a
member of the Communist party who has in the past been in or
worked in the government.
Mr. Aguimbau. I know only one instance of that.
The Chairman. That is the one on which we have your refusal
already. Number three, I am going to ask you to give the names
of all those known to you as members of the Communist party and
whose occupation you do not know at the present time. That is
on the theory that he may or may not be working in the
government, may or may not be doing government work.
I assume you refuse to answer that?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is so.
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered
to answer the question and still refused. Last and finally is
the request for the names of any other individuals other than
those who have subsequently been deceased who were known to you
or are known to you as members of the Communist party.
Mr. Aguimbau. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered
to answer the question and refused and the basis for refusing
was not on the Fifth Amendment but for the reason as stated by
the witness.
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
The Chairman. May I suggest that you go back and think this
matter over and if you change your mind, let us know. We have
no desire to take the time of the courts and the time of the
Senate to punish people for contempt. There is nothing gained
as far as the committee is concerned and nothing gained as far
as you are concerned.
Mr. Fraenkel. Counsel and the witness have talked this over
quite sometime.
The Chairman. Maybe when he thinks over the grounds on
which we feel we need this, he will. If he doesn't, it is up to
him.
TESTIMONY OF PERRY SEAY
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Seay. I do.
Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name?
Mr. Seay. Perry Alexander Seay. The last name is spelled S-
e-a-y.
Mr. Cohn. You are employed at the Reeves Instrument
Corporation?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Since when?
Mr. Seay. 1947, November 1947. However, I was away for
about an eight months period.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before you went to Reeves?
Mr. Seay. University of Texas.
Mr. Cohn. While at Reeves, did you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Seay. Not at the time I was employed there, after his
indictment.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well when there?
Mr. Seay. I knew him as a business acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work in the same office with you?
Mr. Seay. For a period he did.
Mr. Cohn. Who were the people that would come in to see
him?
Mr. Seay. He had dealings primarily with the air force and
was only on the air force job during the time I was there.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a classified job?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any of his social acquaintance that
would drop in on him in the office?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Cohn. You don't recall the name of anyone who ever came
to see him in the office?
Mr. Seay. Not a social acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Anyone with whom he was particularly friendly?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about the names of anyone who would come to
the office to see him regardless of the relationship?
Mr. Seay. [No answer]
The Chairman. Would business people from various companies
come there in connection with the work under way?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Would you name all the people you recall?
Give us the names of all those?
Mr. Seay. Mr. Lesley Cornell.
The Chairman. Where is Mr. Cornell?
Mr. Seay. Army air force, Rome air force.
The Chairman. Was he a civilian or an army officer?
Mr. Seay. He was a civilian employee of the air base.
The Chairman. How often would he come in to see Sobell?
Mr. Seay. In frequently. It is difficult for me to say. I
wasn't directly associated with the project Mr. Sobell was on.
The Chairman. You may think it is unimportant to give us
the names, but it is important that you give us the names of
everyone who came in to see Sobell. Out of ten nine might not
be important but the tenth one might be important.
Mr. Seay. I will do my best. You will have to remember that
was over two years. I believe there was a Mr. Duncan.
The Chairman. Who is he?
Mr. Seay. He is head of the Helipot Corporation.
The Chairman. Was he doing business with Reeves?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. He still does business with Reeves.
The Chairman. As far as you know he would just come in on
business?
Mr. Seay. I'd like to retract that statement. I don't know
of any specific time he came to see Sobell.
The Chairman. How about Cornell? Was that the first name
you gave, Cornell?
Mr. Seay. Cornell was head of the project at Rome, which
was then Watson Laboratories. Sobell was project engineer at
Reeves.
The Chairman. Did Cornell see Sobell in the course of his
work?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Only in the course of his work?
Mr. Seay. That was the only information I had.
The Chairman. Keeping in mind that he was committing
espionage at that particular time, I wish you would search your
memory a little more carefully for these names?
How about Greenblum, Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Seay. I don't believe he had occasion to visit Sobell.
The Chairman. Do you know Greenblum?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. You have only given me the name of one person
who visited Sobell. I am going to ask you when you leave here
to try and make a list of other people who visited Sobell and
give the description of who they are, in business as far as you
know and who visited him socially. You will be considered
giving that under oath.
Do I understand at this time that the only man you know of
who visited Sobell was this man Cornell?
Mr. Seay. It has been two years since this incident. At the
time I was not directly associated with the project involved. I
only know Mr. Cornell visited there; that he was the project
engineer--
The Chairman. Did you ever see him talk to Sobell?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. You didn't assume he talked to him?
Mr. Seay. I know he was there in connection with the
project and with Sobell.
The Chairman. How large was this office you and Sobell
worked in?
Mr. Seay. The office was about--approximately eight people,
eight desks.
The Chairman. Was it as big as this room?
Mr. Seay. About as big as this end.
The Chairman. You worked there how many years?
Mr. Seay. I was in that office--It is difficult to say. I
have been in six or eight different offices. Probably a year at
the least.
The Chairman. It seems with Sobell in there you could think
of a few more people who visited him?
Mr. Seay. I concur.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: When Sobell was indicted
for espionage, where were you working?
Mr. Seay. I was at Reeves.
The Chairman. How long before that had Sobell been at
Reeves?
Mr. Seay. He had been at Reeves, let's see, this was
possibly two or three years. I don't know. I believe he came to
Reeves about 1947 or 1948. If I am not mistaken he was there at
the time I came in 1947.
The Chairman. Now long before he was indicated did he leave
Reeves?
Mr. Seay. Possibly a couple of weeks before on vacation.
The Chairman. A couple of weeks before he was indicted he
was working in the office where you were?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. When you heard he was indicted didn't it make
some impression on you, and didn't you go over in your mind the
people who were visiting him?
Mr. Seay. Not to any great extent. I was concerned about
the problem, highly concerned.
The Chairman. Didn't you stop to think who had been
visiting in the office? He is a man accused of espionage,
punishable by death. You were working in the same office with
him, had been there up to the week before over a period of a
year. Didn't you stop and say to yourself: Is it true? Who was
at the scene? Who was involved?
Mr. Seay. I would like to put in one comment. We have
complete records at Reeves indicating who was there to see
Sobell all during that period. I think that would be much more
factual.
The Chairman. Reeves keeps a record of anyone who comes in
the place?
Mr. Seay. Yes. Reeves is doing classified work.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: If I went to Reeves and
I had secret clearance and was allowed to pass through the
gate, would there be some record of who I was going to see?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. After I was in the plant could I see someone
other than the people I was instructed to see? Couldn't I say I
was coming to see you and end up talking to Sobell.
Mr. Seay. You would be the responsibility of the individual
whom you went to see during the time you were in the plant. He
would turn you over to Sobell or someone else.
The Chairman. But if someone came to see you who had secret
clearance you wouldn't object to them going over and talking to
Sobell who is working in the same office, would you? That
emphasizes the importance of your trying to remember. There
wouldn't be a record in all cases. There is no reason you can't
give us the names. Do you have an awful bad memory?
Mr. Seay. I wouldn't say I have a bad memory, average
memory.
The Chairman. And you can't think of a single other person
that came in to see Sobell?
Mr. Seay. I am sure there were other people there. There
were manufacturers' representatives there and people associated
with that particular project.
The Chairman. How well did you know him?
Mr. Seay. Business acquaintance.
The Chairman. Do you know a man by the name of Levitsky?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You never heard of him?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever visited Sobell's home?
Mr. Seay. Once.
The Chairman. How long was that before the indictment?
Mr. Seay. It was a considerable time before that.
The Chairman. Roughly. A considerable time doesn't mean too
much.
Mr. Seay. It is difficult to say on that. Possibly a year.
The Chairman. Roughly. One month, two months, three months?
Mr. Seay. I said possibly a year. I gave that information
before the grand jury which indicted Sobell.
The Chairman. Was that a dinner you attended in his home?
Mr. Seay. I believe so, yes.
The Chairman. Was your wife there too?
Mr. Seay. I am single.
The Chairman. Who else was there?
Mr. Seay. I was there alone. His wife was there and I
believe an acquaintance came in during the time.
The Chairman. Do you know who the acquaintance was?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't. That specific question was asked at
the grand jury hearing and I wasn't able to give it then.
The Chairman. Were you introduced to the acquaintance?
Mr. Seay. I believe so.
The Chairman. Was it a man or a woman?
Mr. Seay. It is very vague in my mind. I believe some other
people came in--one other person. It is very vague.
The Chairman. You know that a person came in but you don't
know whether it was a man or a woman?
Mr. Seay. There was no significance attached to this visit.
The Chairman. Do you know whether it was a man or a woman?
Mr. Seay. No, I do not.
The Chairman. You have no idea?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You don't know whether they were old or
young?
Mr. Seay. I believe it was a young person.
The Chairman. Did you take this person home after the
dinner?
Mr. Seay. No, I did not.
The Chairman. How late did you stay in his home that night,
roughly?
Mr. Seay. I wasn't there late.
The Chairman. How late? Undoubtedly you can't give the
exact time but was it nine o'clock, twelve o'clock or two
o'clock?
Mr. Seay. I would say it was in the order of nine or ten
o'clock.
The Chairman. Did the four of you have dinner?
Mr. Seay. I don't believe the fourth person ate dinner.
The Chairman. The fourth person came after dinner?
Mr. Seay. If at all.
The Chairman. Now, you say if at all.
Mr. Seay. I told you I believed there was a fourth person.
The Chairman. Now you say you don't believe there was a
fourth.
Mr. Seay. No, I did not. I believe there was a fourth
person but I can't say positively.
The Chairman. Do you believe the fourth person was there
for dinner?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't think so.
The Chairman. Do you think the fourth person came after
dinner?
Mr. Seay. If anyone was there, they dropped in for a few
minutes only. The only thing I remember was he showed us some
pictures of his trip to Canada.
The Chairman. Let's get it down to the fourth person. You
were very positive until we started questioning you. You say
you do know if someone came in it was for a few minutes or half
an hour.
Mr. Seay. I think you asked me if it was an older person. I
think if it had been an older person I probably would have
remembered it.
The Chairman. Do you know that they were only there for a
few minutes or half an hour?
Mr. Seay. I don't remember them being there at the time he
showed the pictures of his trip to Canada.
The Chairman. Now, it is rather important for us to know
this fourth person. Mr. Sobell was engaged in espionage at this
time. Do you know that this person was only there for a few
minutes or half an hour?
Mr. Seay. Sir, I wasn't there so very many hours myself. I
know there was a time when there was no one there. At least I
don't believe there was anyone there. I said he showed us some
pictures.
The Chairman. Who do you mean by ``us''?
Mr. Seay. His wife and I.
The Chairman. Is that what you had in your mind when you
said ``us''?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Pictures of what?
Mr. Seay. Scenic trips through Canada and sections of
Canada and he had pictures of his family, I believe.
The Chairman. Did you ever take any classified material out
of the laboratory?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I had occasion to take classified material
from the laboratory at Reeves also.
The Chairman. Did you take it to your home?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. I had material in my home at times.
The Chairman. Secret material?
Mr. Seay. I don't believe I had secret material. I have had
material classified confidential.
The Chairman. Did you sign a pass to get that or did you
have to sign a pass over there?
Mr. Seay. We sign passes to take material out.
The Chairman. You sign the passes yourself?
Mr. Seay. I wouldn't say positively we signed to take
material out at that time. During the past couple of years we
have more rigorous security arrangements. I couldn't say
positively when that went in process.
The Chairman. About how many times have you taken
confidential material home?
Mr. Seay. A number of times. It is difficult for me to say.
I took material home on quite a few occasions to do work at
night on.
The Chairman. Did you have a safe in your home?
Mr. Seay. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever give it to anyone who was not
working at Reeves Laboratory?
Mr. Seay. Only when a receipt was signed for it. I don't
know of any instances I gave material to other people. I have
never given material to anyone whom I felt was not cleared for
the project on which I was working.
The Chairman. How long have you been married?
Mr. Seay. I have not been married.
The Chairman. Who were you living with when you and Sobell
were working together?
Mr. Seay. I had a private apartment.
The Chairman. Now, would you leave this confidential
material in your apartment from day to day?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't believe so.
The Chairman. You would always take it back the next day?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. You are sure of that?
Mr. Seay. I can't say positively, sir.
The Chairman. Did you take care of your own apartment?
Mr. Seay. No one entered it. I had no maid service.
The Chairman. You did all of your own cleaning?
Mr. Seay. Everything.
The Chairman. Did anyone else have a key to the apartment?
Mr. Seay. I don't know, sir. Undoubtedly the management may
have had a key to the apartment.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Communist party?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Young Communist League?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You never gave money to the Communist party?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You never belonged to any organizations
listed as Communist fronts?
Mr. Seay. Not if I had any inkling that was their
disposition. I do not in general believe in giving money to any
organization.
The Chairman. Did you ever join an organization which you
learned later or knew at that time had been cited by the
attorney general as a front for the Communist party?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Are you quite sure of that?
Mr. Seay. I am not a joiner in general. The only
organizations in which I have ever held membership to my
knowledge are fraternities at college and business
institutions. American Institute of Engineering and the
Institute of Radio Engineering. I have never been a member of
any type political organization other than Republican and
Democratic parties.
The Chairman. So then your testimony in closing is, correct
me if I make any errors, that one you never belonged to the
Communist party; you were never solicited to join the Communist
party; you never joined the Young Communist League; never
solicited to join the Young Communist League.
Did you ever attend any Communist meetings or any meetings
of the Young Communist League?
Mr. Seay. No. That I am quite positive about.
The Chairman. You never joined any organization which you
either knew then or learned later was on the attorney general's
list as subversive or a Communist front?
Mr. Seay. Correct.
Mr. Rainville. You say you are not a joiner, so if you ever
belonged to such organizations you would remember?
Mr. Seay. I think I would remember.
Mr. Rainville. Actually you do have some difficulty
remembering things which occurred two years ago?
Mr. Seay. I have difficulty remembering instances that
occurred in business, acquaintances with whom I was not
connected in any way. I have many business acquaintances at the
plant and at various government laboratories. I don't in
general visit in their homes. I have a number of fellows in the
plant who are friends.
Mr. Rainville. You did have great difficult remembering
whether there was anyone else present at this dinner or not.
You couldn't remember whether it was a man or woman. You do
think they were young but you are not sure there was anybody
there.
Mr. Seay. He had a child. It is possible I am thinking of
the child. I can't say. It has been several years and it was a
mere drop.
Mr. Rainville. Do you remember who was president of your
fraternity in college?
Mr. Seay. I was never a member of a social fraternity. I
was a member of a professional fraternity.
Mr. Rainville. Do you remember who was president of your
fraternity in college?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't.
Mr. Rainville. You can't remember the president of your
fraternity in school?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Rainville. Do you keep a diary?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Rainville. You must have some means of reminding
yourself of things when the year is gone?
Mr. Seay. I frequently keep notes stacked up on my desk.
The Chairman. Did you tell the FBI about this dinner you
attended at Sobell's home?
Mr. Seay. I did.
The Chairman. Did you tell them that there was a fourth
person present?
Mr. Seay. I told them I didn't know. I believe it must have
been a couple of years. I said it was about a year, but I
believe it must have been a couple inasmuch as I wasn't able to
remember at the time it came up before the grand jury.
The Chairman. Didn't you tell them there was only three
persons, only you and the two Sobells? Didn't you tell the FBI?
Mr. Seay. I believe at the grand jury hearing I didn't know
whether there was a fourth person present.
The Chairman. Did you mention the fourth person?
Mr. Seay. I know I did not mention a fourth person's name.
I tried to recollect and could not.
The Chairman. Did you mention that a fourth person was
there?
Mr. Seay. I believe I did.
The Chairman. How about the FBI?
Mr. Seay. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Isn't it a fact you never mentioned to the
FBI that there was a fourth person?
Mr. Seay. If they asked me about it I did I am sure.
The Chairman. They asked you all about that dinner. In
fact, they considered it a rather important item, didn't they?
Mr. Seay. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Mr. Seay, do you have secret clearance now?
Are you handling any classified work?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I am.
The Chairman. And they are doing work for the Signal Corps
Lab?
Mr. Seay. I am not currently handling work from the Signal
Corps Laboratory.
[Off record discussion.]
The Chairman. You may go. You my consider yourself under
subpoena and counsel will notify you when you are to return.
Mr. Seay. Sir, I'd like to add one comment. I am very
anxious to cooperate with you on any matters. If I have sounded
very vague on some of the matters brought up, it is because
they occurred a long time ago and at the time under
insignificant conditions.
The Chairman. Just for your benefit I think you should know
how I view it. I think, frankly, it is worse than vague. I
think you know more than you are telling us. You have told us
absolutely nothing.
You could not tell us the persons who came in to see
Sobell. We would like to get the name of the fourth person who
came to his home. We would like to get anything you might have
which would be of some benefit to us; anything Sobell did to
indicate he was a Communist espionage agent; anything anyone
else did.
Think that over and if you want to come back and talk to
us, we will be more than glad to hear you. You may be able to
refresh your recollection.
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. Am I supposed to try to make up a list
of who visited Sobell in his office?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Seay. May I use the files of Reeves?
The Chairman. I assume you can. I assume you have secret
clearance and I assume you can see the files.
Mr. Seay. But that is permissible with you?
The Chairman. I have no control over Reeves files. Get it
from any source you can.
Mr. Seay. Is there anything else you'd like for me to get?
The Chairman. No, I think that is all.
[Whereupon the hearing adjourned.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--None of the witnesses in the staff
interrogatory on October 26, 1953, Benjamin Zuckerman, Hans
Inslerman (1909-1997), Thomas K. Cookson, Doris Seifert (1915-
2001), Lafayette Pope (1907-1979), Ralph Iannarone (1916-1996),
Saul Finklestein (1901-1908), Abraham Lepato, Irving Rosenheim,
Richard Jones, Jr., testified in public session.]
----------
MONDAY, OCTOBER 26, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr,
staff director; G. David Schine, chief consultant; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel; C. George Anastos, assistant
counsel.
Present also: Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, commandant, Fort
Monmouth.
STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN ZUCKERMAN
Mr. Cohn. Will you state your full name for the record.
Mr. Zuckerman. Benjamin Zuckerman.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a woman by the name of Esther
Gershon?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You have never met her or heard of her?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Jasik?
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes, I do; there are two of them.
Mr. Cohn. Henry Jasik.
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes, and I know his brother very slightly.
Mr. Cohn. What is his brother's first name?
Mr. Zuckerman. His brother's first name I can't even
remember.
Mr. Cohn. Did Henry work down at Monmouth?
Mr. Zuckerman. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. What did Henry do?
Mr. Zuckerman. I met Henry when he worked at the Bureau of
Ordnance at Washington, D.C.
Mr. Cohn. That was back in----
Mr. Zuckerman. Way back in 1938.
Mr. Cohn. Did you see him thereafter?
Mr. Zuckerman. I did. Yes, I did see him thereafter. I want
to get this straight. Now, I saw him in Boston right at the end
of the war. He was still in uniform at that time, and as I
recall it, he was recruiting people for the Cambridge Field
Security Office of the air force. He was still in uniform at
the time I talked with him. That was after the war--right after
the war. Then I saw him at the Airborne Instruments Laboratory.
He worked there. I went there on business. I was pretty
friendly with Jasik in Washington.
Mr. Cohn. Did he marry?
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What is the name of his wife?
Mr. Zuckerman. His wife's first name, I think, was Esther,
and she was in Washington at the time.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember her maiden name? Could it have
been Gershon?
Mr. Zuckerman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. When was he married?
Mr. Zuckerman. He was married, I believe, possibly around
1939 or 1940.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the last you saw of Jasik?
Mr. Zuckerman. In New York I saw him.
Mr. Cohn. Well, when did you see him last?
Mr. Zuckerman. I saw him at the Airborne Instruments
Laboratory. I believe I visited him once at his home since that
time.
Mr. Cohn. Where was that?
Mr. Zuckerman. I believe it is around Flushing somewhere. I
have the address.
Mr. Cohn. What is he doing now?
Mr. Zuckerman. Jasik, I believe, is a consultant engineer.
Mr. Cohn. For whom?
Mr. Zuckerman. The last time I saw him he told me he was
taking his doctorate and thought he was going to finish, but he
was not going back to Airborne consultant work. I last saw his
name in the IRP directory as a consultant engineer.
Mr. Cohn. Is he doing government work?
Mr. Zuckerman. I don't know. He may be.
Mr. Cohn. What is his brother's name?
Mr. Zuckerman. Charles.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever work at Monmouth?
Mr. Zuckerman. I don't know anything about his brother.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Simon Gershon?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You have never met him?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Carr. You went to the University of Michigan for a
short time?
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes, for approximately two months.
Mr. Carr. Taking graduate work?
Mr. Zuckerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Did you room with Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Zuckerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Did you assist in any way Coleman's financial
condition while he was there?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Did your family?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Carr. He did not borrow money from you or from your
father?
Mr. Zuckerman. Not that I can remember. He may have
borrowed a dollar or two at one time.
Mr. Carr. What is your father's name?
Mr. Zuckerman. Jacob.
Mr. Carr. Jacob Zuckerman?
Mr. Zuckerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Was he ever connected with the Communist party in
any way?
Mr. Zuckerman. No. My father was always violently opposed
to the Communist party.
Mr. Carr. Where does he live?
Mr. Zuckerman. He isn't living.
[Mr. Zuckerman returned to the hearing room and made the
following statement.]
Mr. Zuckerman. I have been thinking about my testimony I
gave at the previous time [October 15, 1953], and one question
was asked to which I could not remember the answer. If you may
remember that I said I met Sobell once in Schenectady. You
people asked me what I went to inspect there and after thinking
it over, I remember I inspected cells and motors and
generators. We had been having trouble with them and I was sent
up to check on them.
Mr. Cohn. Did you meet anybody with Sobell at any time?
Mr. Zuckerman. I knew people he thought highly of. He spoke
to me about Sid Godet. He spoke very highly of Godet. I knew
his name too. He was very well known, being a very high class
engineer. He spoke very highly of Dushman, and that name is
well known in scientific circles. He is an older man now.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know any of his friends at Schenectady?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
STATEMENT OF HANS INSLERMAN
Mr. Schine. Will you give your name for the record?
Mr. Inslerman. Inslerman. I-n-s-l-e-r-m-a-n, Hans.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed?
Mr. Inslerman. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties there?
Mr. Inslerman. Section chief, Research Study Section.
Mr. Schine. Are you cleared for classified work?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. And do you handle classified work?
Mr. Inslerman. I do.
Mr. Schine. Ranging up to top secret?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You are cleared for top secret?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, I am.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr. Inslerman. I do. I have a brother.
Mr. Cohn. What is his name?
Mr. Inslerman. Felix A. Inslerman.
Mr. Cohn. Where does he reside?
Mr. Inslerman. He lives in upper New York State.
Mr. Cohn. Exactly what location?
Mr. Inslerman. Near Cambridge, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the Felix Inslerman mentioned in
connection with the Hiss case?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. And he is a photographer? Is that right?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I think he is an electrical engineer. He
studied to be an electrical engineer.
Mr. Cohn. But he was mentioned in the Hiss case in
connection with photography. When called in the Hiss case did
he claim the Fifth Amendment as to his Communist affiliations?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't know. I haven't got the details.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see your brother?
Mr. Inslerman. In the fall of 1950.
Mr. Cohn. What was the occasion for having seen him then?
Mr. Inslerman. That was after the case came up, and he
requested assistance--financial assistance. He indicated that
his family was very hard put and asked for help.
Mr. Cohn. Did you give it to him?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been in touch at all with him since?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Not directly nor indirectly?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Is he married?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, he is.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen his wife since then?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Has your wife been in touch with him, or his
wife?
Mr. Inslerman. I think we did receive a Christmas card, as
I recall. There is another incident connected with your
previous questions--we made arrangements to have him repay his
loan, and he has been sending periodically the payments on the
loan.
Mr. Cohn. But you have not had any contact on the basis of
the loan?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Schine. Your brother is Felix A. Inslerman?
Mr. Inslerman. Felix A. Inslerman.
Mr. Schine. Is he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no knowledge whatsoever that he is.
Mr. Cohn. Well, but then you have not seen his party card?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not.
Mr. Schine. Have you had any reason to believe he is
connected with the Communist movement?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I haven't--or hadn't until this case
came up in early 1950.
Mr. Schine. Up until 1950 you had no reason to suspect he
was connected with the Communist movement, but from 1950 on you
felt that he was?
Mr. Inslerman. I am afraid that I did have to infer that
from all published reports. I was told twice after the Hiss
case came up, once, I think after--in the fall of 1950. I was
called before our commanding officer and he indicated to me----
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mr. Inslerman. Colonel Cassevant.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Inslerman. C-a-s-s-e-v-a-n-t. He indicated to me that
my brother was a Communist.
Mr. Schine. How do you mean he indicated it to you? He told
you that he had information that your brother was a Communist?
Mr. Inslerman. Right. That is right.
Mr. Schine. What else did he tell you?
Mr. Inslerman. I was told absolutely not to have any
contact with him, my brother.
Mr. Schine. At that time, were you handling top secret
work?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't think so. I think I was cleared for
secret at that time, or either in another status because my
clearance was reduced to restricted as I recall when the Hiss
case came up.
Mr. Schine. Then after Colonel Cassevant told you not to
have any contact with your brother, of course, you heard from
your brother and he asked you to give him help.
Mr. Inslerman. No, that occurred afterwards.
Mr. Schine. You had no contact with him after Colonel
Cassevant instructed you to have no contact with him?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right. Actually, I first recall,
back to 1946, I believe that is correct, in 1946 is the last
time I saw my brother until 1950, and I told Colonel Cassevant
about the incident and he warned me to have no further contacts
with him.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true that you did have further contact
with him after this time? After talking with Colonel Cassevant?
Mr. Inslerman. No, that is not true. What do you mean by
contact?
Mr. Schine. Weren't you in contact with your brother after
that?
Mr. Inslerman. By seeing him personally, or by letters? By
mail, yes; I think that there was a Christmas card incident. I
don't know whether my wife may have sent a Christmas card.
Mr. Schine. Didn't he borrow money from you, and weren't
you in contact about the money?
Mr. Inslerman. There was a one-way contact. He merely sent
a check, which I signed and sent back.
Mr. Schine. How much money did you loan your brother?
Mr. Inslerman. $1,400.00
Mr. Schine. Did you know at the time you loaned this money
to your brother you were loaning it to help the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I had no indication whatsoever. When he
requested assistance, I asked him. He made the request by
phone. I asked him if he had cleared himself with the
government, and he gave me to understand that, at least I
understood that there were no charges against him; however, he
also indicated that his security clearance had been suspended.
Mr. Schine. What was he doing at that time for the
government?
Mr. Inslerman. He worked at the General Electric Company at
the time that this case came up.
Mr. Schine. Where is your brother now?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't know. I assume he is still living up
at his place near Cambridge.
Mr. Schine. What is his address?
Mr. Inslerman. I think the last address he had was the
Cambridge post office.
Mr. Schine. Cambridge, Massachusetts?
Mr. Inslerman. Cambridge, New York.
Mr. Schine. Is he still working for the government?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't really know.
Mr. Schine. What was he doing the last time you knew what
he was doing?
Mr. Inslerman. He was an engineer at the General Electric
Company.
Mr. Schine. You mean he has been out of work since he left
General Electric?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't really know.
Mr. Schine. Is this Cambridge, Massachusetts?
Mr. Inslerman. No; Cambridge, New York State.
Mr. Schine. Is there a General Electric plant there?
Mr. Inslerman. This is some distance from the General
Electric plant. This is some distance from Schenectady. It is
towards the northeast side of Schenectady.
Mr. Schine. As far as you know he is still working for
General Electric? Is that correct?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't know. I think so.
Mr. Schine. Do you know what his means of living is?
Mr. Inslerman. When he contacted me, he told me he was
having trouble finding work, and I think he had obtained
private employment somewhere else.
Mr. Schine. When was this?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, about 1950, I believe, when the loan
was made. That, incidentally, was my only contact, physical
contact, or for that matter mail or letters or phone calls or
any other means of communication.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us some information concerning
individuals with whom your brother associated that you believe
are or were a part of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Inslerman. I'll do my best. I can't say I knew of any
connections with the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Schine. Would you try to give us the names of some of
his friends and associates that you think were connected with
the Communist movement.
Mr. Inslerman. I would prefer that you ask a leading
question.
Mr. Schine. All right. What were the names of some of his
associates that you believe are or were in the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
Mr. Schine. What were the names of some of your brother's
close friends?
Mr. Inslerman. That is going to be rather difficult to
answer, in view of the time which has gone by. I think the
record would probably indicate that since he was so thoroughly
investigated--the record would show which people he associated
with. My association goes back to roughly 1934, when we
separated from our common household. I think he got married
about that date, and the year after that I obtained my job at
Fort Monmouth, and came over here.
Mr. Schine. Thinking up to this time, 1934, now that you
suspect that he is connected with the Communist party, do you
believe he was connected with it in 1934?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. When do you think he first joined the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no indication that he has joined.
When I saw him in November of 1950, he very strenuously
indicated his innocence.
Mr. Schine. How did he explain the fact that he refused to
answer questions.
Mr. Inslerman. He didn't. He didn't explain anything. The
interview was unsatisfactory so far as I was concerned. In
fact, I felt very badly about it because he seemed to be a
changed man from the man of a few years ago--or at least five
years ago--which was the last time I saw him for any length of
time.
Mr. Schine. Do you have any ideas how he may have been
dragged into the Communist movement?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Schine. You say that you loaned him about $1,400. Has
he paid all of that money back?
Mr. Inslerman. He has paid seven hundred dollars, with
interest.
Mr. Schine. When was the last payment made?
Mr. Inslerman. Sometime last year. I believe last November
or some date like that.
Mr. Schine. How did he pay you?
Mr. Inslerman. By check.
Mr. Schine. Do you remember the name of the bank that he
used?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, I think it was the Chase National Bank.
Mr. Schine. Where is it located?
Mr. Inslerman. New York City. A branch here in New York
City.
Mr. Schine. Has he made any effort to contact you in the
last several months?
Mr. Inslerman. No, absolutely none. I haven't heard from
him since 1950, I believe that is the correct time.
Mr. Schine. Has anybody else who may be associated with him
in his work with the Communist party attempted to contact you,
or to talk with you?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no knowledge of any individual
associated with the Communist party, and so far as your
questions, there are no friends of his who have made any
contact with me, or any people referring back to him.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever signed out any classified documents
at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes. Well, by that I think you mean have I
taken any out?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. Have you ever taken any documents out and
been unable to reproduce them when directed to do so?
Mr. Inslerman. I believe you are referring to the June 1952
incident.
Mr. Cohn. All right, let's take that.
Mr. Inslerman. I think that was the only incident.
Mr. Cohn. Did you return them after being directed to do
so?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, after searching for several weeks, I
would say. It took perhaps a month or more.
Mr. Cohn. Did you return all of them?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a fact that there were some missing?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not. I returned every document I
was requested to.
Mr. Cohn. Were there any documents missing?
Mr. Inslerman. None whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. Were there any which you were not specifically
requested to return which you did?
Mr. Inslerman. Will you re-phrase your question?
Mr. Cohn. When I ask you a question, resolve it out in
favor of giving us the most information.
Mr. Inslerman. I would be glad to do that, but I am not
sure I understand the question right now.
Mr. Cohn. Were there any documents unaccounted for in any
way?
Mr. Inslerman. None that I know of.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have possession of any now?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir. I have some signed out, secret
documents, now.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you have them?
Mr. Inslerman. At my location of work.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any at your house?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely none.
Mr. Cohn. When was the last time you took any home or out
of the plant?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I haven't taken classified
documents home.
Mr. Cohn. Where were the eighteen documents?
Mr. Inslerman. At my place of work.
Mr. Cohn. What had you done, just mislaid them?
Mr. Inslerman. No, they weren't mislaid. In fact, the
situation was that I wasn't even unaware they were charged out
to me, some of them.
Mr. Cohn. Where was they? You were ordered to produce them
in two days and you couldn't do that.
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir. That is right. That is a rather
involved question. It ties in with our procedure at the
laboratory, and I was not asked to produce any documents. I was
asked to produce certain route slips.
Mr. Cohn. Did you produce them within two days?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I couldn't do that.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Inslerman. Because I couldn't identify the routing
slips.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Inslerman. There was a whole bunch of numbers
beginning--the group that I was asked to produce was merely a
series of numbers beginning with the letter ``S,'' indicating
that the documents were secret. In other words, a list of
numbers that the gentleman who came down gave me.
Mr. Cohn. Did you sign out for these documents?
Mr. Inslerman. I found out subsequently I didn't sign for
some of them.
Mr. Cohn. Who did sign out for them?
Mr. Inslerman. The people who were in charge of the section
before me.
Mr. Cohn. What had they done with them?
Mr. Inslerman. Apparently, they had merely put them in file
and left them there and the charge was carried over to my name
by having a card in mail and records transferred to my name.
Mr. Cohn. Did this apply to all eighteen?
Mr. Inslerman. Many of the eighteen I withdrew myself, at
least I signed.
Mr. Cohn. Were you able to produce all of those you signed
for?
Mr. Inslerman. I never segregated the documents. I couldn't
tell.
Mr. Cohn. You were asked to produce eighteen documents in
two days. You say you signed out for some of them and others
were transferred to you as described. How about those signed
out by you, were you able to produce them immediately?
Mr. Inslerman. I could very safely say I was not.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Inslerman. For one thing, I had to identify the
documents from the number given me, which was an ``S'' number.
It took me at least several days. Actually, at the time I was
quite overloaded with work that I didn't realize that
implication when the gentleman came in the branch. I didn't
even know for the first few days they were looking for the
documents charged out to me. I was given to understand by my
chief we were having these people in the plant to look at our
mail and records system and I was assistant to my chief and
took that as a routine function, which is the expected type of
task we are called upon to do from time to time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever reproduce any classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not.
Mr. Cohn. You never made copies for any use in the section
or any other reason?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, we may--perhaps I'd better correct
that.
Mr. Cohn. I think you'd better.
Mr. Inslerman. And indicate that carbon copies are made of
classified documents.
Mr. Cohn. By whom?
Mr. Inslerman. Secretaries in the section or branch.
Mr. Cohn. Now, is it a fact you directed the making of five
copies of certain classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. What is this about five copies?
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have reproduced five copies of
classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. The number of copies are reproduced
according to the requirements.
Mr. Cohn. Well, did you ever direct that any be reproduced?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, I think I directed many copies to be
reproduced.
Mr. Cohn. Was the figure five? Were you ever asked about
five copies of any documents you ordered reproduced?
Mr. Inslerman. I couldn't pinpoint five copies.
Mr. Cohn. You were never asked about that by Captain
Sheehan or Lt. Bromberg?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, wait a minute. Captain Sheehan, Lt.
Bromberg, I don't recognize the captain or lieutenant.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody from CIC, the security end up at
Monmouth, ever ask you whether or not you had reproduced any
classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Did you say CIA?
Mr. Cohn. CIC. Were you ever asked by anybody in security
whether you had ever reproduced classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't recall any such question at any
time.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you say there have been occasions, you have
had occasions in your section to make carbon copies. Is that
right?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. What records do you keep of the fact that carbons
are made?
Mr. Inslerman. There is no record of carbon copies in the
past. We have a new procedure now.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, you have a document classified
secret and signed out by number and everybody is very careful
of that. They want it back; you signed it out and they order
you to produce it and they know everything is safe; the
document is there; and you have a secretary in the office take
the thing and make five carbons of it and no record is kept of
the carbons. How could you keep track of the secret document?
Mr. Inslerman. I think that is being corrected with the new
procedure.
Mr. Cohn. When did this happen?
Mr. Inslerman. The new procedure? Fairly recently. I can't
exactly pinpoint it, but it would be within the last year.
Mr. Cohn. And prior to that time you made carbon copies of
these documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes. That was the normal procedure.
Mr. Cohn. Who authorized the making of carbon copies?
Mr. Inslerman. That was determined by each supervisor to
necessitate getting the work done.
Mr. Cohn. Who was the supervisor who said it was all right
for you to make carbon copies of these documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, normally, in the course of working,
the past procedure has not even been to, on typewritten copy,
to request permission from the supervisor. The supervisor
determines himself whether copies are necessary for the file.
Mr. Cohn. Who was the supervisor in your section who
authorized the making of carbon copies of secret documents
without keeping records of it?
Mr. Inslerman. I have been recently transferred. I actually
am the supervisor myself and I would authorize the making of
carbon copies.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever authorized the making of carbon
copies before the new regulation went into effect?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, it has been sometime, as I recall. You
see, I acted in the capacity of assistant and in that
capacity----
Mr. Cohn. You only did it when the supervisor wasn't there?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, no, not necessarily. It more depended
upon the specific need for a document.
Mr. Cohn. I want to know what the name was of the
supervisor in your section who would from time to time
authorize the making of carbon copies of secret documents
without keeping a record of the carbons?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I was second in command and I
would go to the branch chief----
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mr. Inslerman. M. Kaiser.
Mr. Cohn. Morris Kaiser?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. I see.
By the way, I was going to ask you if there were carbon
copies of any of these eighteen documents unaccounted for. I
assume you would have no accurate way of knowing whether the
carbon copies were accounted for or not since no records was
kept of the carbons. Is that right?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I think the nature of the eighteen
documents were such that normally we would not have carbon
copies made. These eighteen documents were enclosures generally
to letters and were charged out with the route slip number on a
letter, not by the documents.
Mr. Cohn. But if carbon copies were made, you would have no
way of knowing whether all carbons were accounted for. Is that
right? Under the old procedure?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't think there was a specific way of
accounting for carbon copies.
Mr. Cohn. What would be done with the carbon paper after
the copies were made?
Mr. Inslerman. On all classified correspondence, it would
be disposed of as classified material.
Mr. Cohn. Did you see it disposed of regularly in your
section?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir. That would be a very serious
security violation if it wasn't.
Mr. Carr. Where did you live in the year 1933?
Mr. Inslerman. I think it was uptown, 122nd Street.
Mr. Carr. Here in Manhattan?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall having signed a pledge for the
support of Communist candidate in that year?
Mr. Inslerman. That was a subject of the investigation and
I was asked that question. I have been trying to resolve that
ever since in my mind.
Mr. Carr. Did you ever resolve it?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, I did. It was quite a shock to me to
know that such an incident apparently took place.
Mr. Carr. In studying the thing in your own mind, did you
come to any conclusion about it?
Mr. Inslerman. The conclusion I have come to is when I
graduated from school, I had made up my mind regarding
communism and the Communistic system and I had resolved against
it.
Mr. Cohn. What did you object to in it?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, many, many, many, many, matters.
Mr. Cohn. What was your principal objection?
Mr. Inslerman. It seemed to be a very militant and very
aggressive type of movement which runs over people's liberties.
Mr. Cohn. How did you feel about government ownership of
property?
Mr. Inslerman. My feeling is that what we have is
satisfactory.
Mr. Cohn. What was your feeling back then?
Mr. Inslerman. As far as I know, I still say--for instance,
it is hard to recall going back, but take the case of railroads
for instance. Certainly, actually when I really think about the
specific answer, I really didn't have very strong political
feelings at that time. My intentions were engrossed with other
things.
Mr. Carr. But you don't deny in 1933 you voted the
Communist party ticket?
Mr. Inslerman. What I was accused of was that I voted in
the primary election and I was directly that, and I have not
been able to recollect that I voted in such an election.
Mr. Carr. You don't recall signing anything with the
Communist party name across the top and a symbol of the hammer
and sickle?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall voting in any primaries?
Mr. Inslerman. No. That is the thing. I don't recall ever
having voted in the primary. I think I could be fairly certain
on that.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall all the times that you have voted?
Can you recall each year, each election that you have voted?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I should say not, but lately I think I
have been voting rather steadily. I am not sure how steadily I
voted many years ago. At the time you are asking questions
about goes back twenty years.
Mr. Carr. But in 1933 you may have voted for the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I can't say because I have no recollection
on the matter.
Mr. Carr. You have no recollection as to whether or not you
did vote for the Communist party in 1933?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. It is possible you did?
Mr. Inslerman. I won't say anything on the possibility.
Mr. Carr. If presented with your name on a petition or
ballot or official register, would you deny that it was yours?
Is it that uncertain in your mind?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, when I was shown the register when
the matter first came up a number of years ago, I could not
recall the circumstances behind this registry whatsoever.
Mr. Carr. What did you see on the registry?
Mr. Inslerman. As I recall right now, I believe my name was
listed there.
Mr. Carr. Your name, your occupation?
Mr. Inslerman. Among many other things listed on the
registry.
Mr. Carr. Wasn't you name signed in your own writing?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, as I recall, it did seem to be my
own handwriting, but I can't certify to it.
Mr. Carr. It appeared to be your handwriting?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right, but that is about the only
thing I could say.
Mr. Carr. And it was in support of the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. I think the question leads us astray. From
what I could make out, I believe that was a primary ballot, not
ballot, but primary registration which I don't recall having
accomplished.
Mr. Carr. But you did align yourself with the Communist
party according to what you were shown?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't believe so.
Mr. Carr. You don't believe that the paper which you were
shown indicated to you you had aligned yourself with the
Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. Would you repeat that?
Mr. Carr. You don't believe that the paper which you were
shown, containing what looked like you signature, signified you
had aligned yourself with the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I have been trying to figure out
what the papers meant ever since.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall what they looked like?
Mr. Inslerman. [Indicating] Rather long document.
Mr. Carr. [Indicating] Like that?
Mr. Inslerman. Not that long. One third as long.
Mr. Carr. Did it have your name signed?
Mr. Inslerman. I think it had a lot of names on it, among
them my own name.
Mr. Carr. It was a column affair and your name was one and
it ran across your address, occupation, number of years in the
state, number of years in the county, district, etc., and your
name was signed on that?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, it was signed.
Mr. Carr. Now, do you recall anything on that sheet which
indicated what your selection of party was?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes. I think it indicated an abbreviation
which I interpreted to mean Communist.
Mr. Cohn. When were you first asked about this? When did
this matter first come up?
Mr. Inslerman. That was early in 1950 when the Hiss case
was being investigated very closely.
Mr. Cohn. Now, neither at that time or at this time were
you or are you able to say that is your signature?
Mr. Inslerman. It looks like it is. That is about all I
could say. I don't recall having signed it, no.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever been called to appear before a
loyalty board?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I have not.
Mr. Carr. In 1950, when asked concerning this registration,
was this by the army officials at Fort Monmouth? Who asked you
concerning this?
Mr. Inslerman. No, that was, I recall the man's name, Mr.
Donohan. I think he is connected with the district attorney's
office, U.S. federal district attorney.
Mr. Carr. Donohan?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Were you called to testify in the Hiss case?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. What did Mr. Donohan do, interview you?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man named Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I don't know an individual by that name.
Mr. Cohn. How about Alfred Sarant?
Mr. Inslerman. No. I'd like to see a photograph.
Mr. Cohn. Fred Kitty?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I don't know anyone.
Mr. Cohn. Hy Sigman?
Mr. Inslerman. Seems to be first names, no.
Mr. Carr. When were you first approached by the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I was never approached by the Communist
party.
Mr. Carr. Were you approached by the Young Communist
League.
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not.
Mr. Carr. How did it happen you signed your name on this
registry?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't recall having--that is rather easy
to explain to me, is that actually going through my school
days, I was never too much interested in politics and
consequently, political affiliations never came up as a
critical item in my mind.
Mr. Carr. You just said by the time you left school you had
decided against communism. What year did you finish school?
Mr. Inslerman. 1930.
Mr. Carr. Then in 1933 your name shows up favoring
communism?
Mr. Inslerman. That is an incident which is difficult for
me to explain because my personal viewpoint is, I have worked
on an individualistic basis entirely and the Communistic
viewpoint is such that the individual has no being in that
viewpoint.
Mr. Carr. Having that feeling, how could you make a mistake
in registering? Doesn't it seem a little unusual that you would
turn up in the Communist party rather than some other political
party so designated at the time, since you had this feeling
concerning communism, had had it at least three years.
Mr. Inslerman. Well, actually, the problem wouldn't have
appeared in the Republican category at that time.
Mr. Carr. Would you say socialistic?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I had no definite set of views
but----
Mr. Carr. You were opposed to communism?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. I say, ``You were opposed to communism.''
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Carr. So that the best you can say now is that what
appears to be your own signature on this registry indicating
you supported the Communist party in this election in 1933.
Other than that, you are at a loss to understand. How your name
happened to get on there under the emblem of the Communist
party, you are at a loss to understand?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall registering in 1933 at all?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Did you ever join the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Or the Young Communist League?
Mr. Inslerman. No, absolutely no reason. Actually, it goes
against my personal convictions.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Inslerman, where were you born?
Mr. Inslerman. New York City.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Inslerman. I spent more of my time going to school in
Middlesex County, Century, New Jersey. I graduated through
senior high school. Most of my public school I spent in
Brunswich and Trenton on a farm.
Mr. Schine. What college did you go to?
Mr. Inslerman. Cooper Union and also Brooklyn Polytechnic.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Clarence Hiskey?
Mr. Inslerman. No. I don't recall that name at all.
Mr. Schine. When you first went to work at Fort Monmouth,
what are the names of the reference you gave on your
application form?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, the one reference I would most likely
have would be Mr. Howell, a civil engineer.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Inslerman. H-o-w-e-l-l.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any of the other names?
Mr. Inslerman. I would assume that the people I worked for
would be on that. I would also give them as references. Mr.
George Houck, also Mr. George Uszmann.
Mr. Schine. What are the other names?
Mr. Inslerman. I can't recall any more.
Mr. Schine. That was in what year? 1934?
Mr. Inslerman. 1935, when I came to work.
Mr. Schine. Now, you have told us that you have been
against communism as far back as you knew about it and that it
was against your basic principles and also that you believed in
individualism.
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Surely then you would recognize any Communists
with whom you had been in contact, or any Communists you may
have known over the years, either in your work, associates that
work with you----
Mr. Inslerman. No, that is a very difficult thing to do. I
didn't even recognize my brother as having any connection.
Mr. Schine. Are there any people that you have suspected of
being Communists who have worked with you or who are connected
with the army?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Schine. Can you tell us the names of any individuals
that you have thought were Communists who don't work with you
or haven't worked with you?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't recall any names whatsoever.
Mr. Schine. Can you recall any individuals?
Mr. Inslerman. In connection with what?
Mr. Schine. That you believe were or are Communists,
disregarding their names for the moment?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I don't recall any such individuals.
Mr. Schine. Has any other member of your family ever been
connected with the Communist party besides your brother?
Mr. Inslerman. The only other member was my father who is
deceased.
Mr. Schine. I have no more questions. Thank you very much.
Mr. Cohn. Was your father a Communist?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I could very surely say he wasn't. He
was a very great believer in individualism and I think he was a
great follower of the Golden Rule too, and I don't believe
while he did have it very difficult, I don't think he ever
lifted his hand against his country.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much, Mr. Inslerman.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS K. COOKSON
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name for the record?
Mr. Cookson. Thomas K. Cookson.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Cookson. C-o-o-k-s-o-n.
Mr. Schine. You work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. Yes.
Mr. Schine. How long have you worked for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. Eleven years.
Mr. Schine. And what did you do before you went to work for
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. I had my own business, sign painter.
Mr. Schine. Is it true that you are a Socialist?
Mr. Cookson. Well, I have views I suppose----
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about your Socialist views?
Mr. Cookson. Well, my father was a member of the
Independent Labor party, Eidenberg, Scotland, and he educated
me in the way of that line, and I became a member of the
Independent Labor party, oh, way back in 1922, I believe.
Mr. Schine. When did you first come to the United States?
Mr. Cookson. November 13, 1928.
Mr. Schine. What are your views about the Communist system?
Mr. Cookson. I don't care about it.
Mr. Schine. At times you have been in favor of some of
their ideas, haven't you?
Mr. Cookson. Nationalization and such things as that.\4\
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\4\ The transcript read ``Naturalization.''
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Mr. Schine. Would you elaborate on some of the Communist
forms of government that you are in favor of, or have been in
favor of.
Mr. Cookson. Communist forms of government?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Cookson. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Schine. Could you tell us some of the phases of the
Communist type of government or society you favor?
Mr. Cookson. I don't think I favor any of them.
Mr. Schine. You don't favor any of the Communist society?
Mr. Cookson. No. Their form of government or economy.
Mr. Schine. You have in the past, haven't you?
Mr. Cookson. I would say that.
Mr. Schine. You said you favored nationalization?
Mr. Cookson. I would say the Socialist point of view.
Mr. Schine. Haven't you believed the Communists have a
better form of the government than the United States?
Mr. Cookson. I wouldn't say that, no, sir.
Mr. Schine. Weren't you against our going into the Korean
War?
Mr. Cookson. Well, I didn't like the idea of any war.
Mr. Schine. Did you make the statement on several occasions
that ``The Communists will win the war.''
Mr. Cookson. Oh, no.
Mr. Schine. You have been under investigation, haven't you?
Mr. Cookson. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any Communist party members, had
discussions with them?
Mr. Cookson. Oh, when I was a pretty young man in the
Independent Labor party, we use to have debates.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any in the United States.
Mr. Cookson. Never.
Mr. Schine. You never came in contact with any?
Mr. Cookson. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you belonged to some political
associations in the United States?
Mr. Cookson. No, sir, never have.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. I am a leader in the Sign Painting Section of
the Graphic Branch.
Mr. Schine. When did you become a citizen of the United
States?
Mr. Cookson. I am not quite sure of the date, but I think
it would be around 1934.
Mr. Schine. And you voted the Socialist ticket all the way
through?
Mr. Cookson. No, that is a peculiar thing. I am a
registered Republican.
Mr. Schine. You have never voted the Socialist ticket here?
Mr. Cookson. I don't think I have, no.
Mr. Schine. But you----
Mr. Cookson. Is it Fabian Socialism?
Mr. Cohn. Do you think the Republican party stands for
Fabian Socialism?
Mr. Cookson. No.
Mr. Schine. I have no further questions. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF DORIS SEIFERT
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name, please, and spell it?
Mrs. Seifert. Doris Seifert, S-e-i-f-e-r-t.
Mr. Schine. And where are you currently employed?
Mrs. Seifert. Field Training Department, Signal School.
Mr. Schine. When did you first join the Communist party?
Mrs. Seifert. I have never been a member of the Communist
party.
Mr. Schine. When did you first attend Communist party
meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. I have never to my knowledge attended
Communist party meetings.
Mr. Schine. Did you live with Communist party members?
Mrs. Seifert. May I explain.
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mrs. Seifert. When our home broke up, I was a little bit
younger, and there was a girl working in the same office--I was
working in an attorney's office at the time--who knew I had to
find another place to live. She offered to let me stay at her
house; that her mother would have no objection and I did.
Mr. Schine. What was her name?
Mrs. Seifert. Leader, Diana Leader.
Mr. Schine. And her mother and father's names?
Mrs. Seifert. William and Stephanie. He was separated from
the family and they were in the course of getting a divorce.
When I stayed there he visited there several times but he
didn't live there.
Mr. Schine. Did you know they were members of the Communist
party?
Mrs. Seifert. I can't say that from anything I heard her
say.
Mr. Schine. You suspected it?
Mrs. Seifert. I was told by someone else that they
suspected it.
Mr. Schine. How long did you live with them?
Mrs. Seifert. Approximately three months.
Mr. Schine. When did you first go to work for the Signal
Corps?
Mrs. Seifert. In October 1941.
Mr. Schine. I see. You were living with these Communists at
that time?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. I had my own apartment.
Mr. Schine. In other words, you left the Leader's home
prior to your going with the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Seifert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. You were in touch with William and Stephanie
Leader after you left their home?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. Well, not in any continuous touch. I
may have seen them on occasions.
Mr. Schine. You saw them from time to time?
Mrs. Seifert. Perhaps I did.
Mr. Schine. You remained friends with the daughter?
Mrs. Seifert. Acquaintances. We weren't close friends. I
thought it was a generous idea that she or her mother had.
Mr. Schine. What was the daughter's first name?
Mrs. Seifert. Diana.
Mr. Schine. She was working for the government at that
time?
Mrs. Seifert. She wasn't then, definitely.
Mr. Schine. When did she first take a position with the
government?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know exactly. I have not been in
close contact with the family.
Mr. Schine. Were William and Stephanie Leader employed by
the government?
Miss Seifert. I don't think so. She stayed at home. He was
a jeweler.
Mr. Cohn. What branch of the government did Diana go to?
Mrs. Seifert. I have no idea.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true you were associated with members
of the Communist party from time to time?
Mrs. Seifert. Not to my knowledge, sir. If I did associate
with other than Mr. Leader--at the time I had no intentions, I
didn't move there knowing they were Communists; I didn't stay
there knowing they were Communists. It was a necessary move at
the time.
Mr. Schine. Didn't you discuss communism with the Leaders?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Didn't you talk about government?
Mrs. Seifert. We may have talked socially about communism.
We didn't discuss it at any length.
Mr. Schine. They didn't specify any sympathy for the
Russian form of government?
Mrs. Seifert. They may have had sympathies for such as
wanted that form of government. That is as far as I ever
thought about it.
Mr. Schine. You can't recall any conversations about
communism?
Mrs. Seifert. That was ten years ago, more than ten years
ago.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have a loyalty hearing?
Mrs. Seifert. I asked for one. I'd like to know why they
haven't been able to clear me. I had a clearance withdrawn in
1938. I couldn't find out why. I couldn't get anybody to face
me with the charges or anything.
Mr. Schine. Would you give us the names of the individuals
that you know to be Communist party members that you have known
over the years?
Mrs. Seifert. I know of no one other than Mr. Leader.
Mr. Cohn. Who met with Mr. Leader? Did you meet any of his
friends?
Mrs. Seifert. I worked with an attorney who was his
attorney.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mrs. Seifert. Samuel Epstein.
Mr. Cohn. Where was that?
Mrs. Seifert. The location of that was 701 Mattson Avenue,
Ashbury.
Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Epstein a Communist?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know that he was. To my knowledge, he
was not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear that he was?
Mrs. Seifert. No.
Mr. Schine. Is any member of your family connected with the
Communist party?
Mrs. Seifert. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Schine. Are you married?
Mrs. Seifert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Does your husband work for the government?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you were in touch with
Miss Leader?
Mrs. Seifert. I met them on the boardwalk this summer. They
happened to be on the same stretch of the boardwalk that we
were on. Mrs. Leader was sitting with some friends of hers. I
think Diana was there also.
Mr. Schine. You say Mr. Leader has a jewelry store. Is Mrs.
Leader employed?
Mrs. Seifert. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. What was the address of their home?
Mrs. Seifert. I can't give you the exact number, 700
something Brinley Avenue, Bradley Beach.
Mr. Schine. Where was this located?
Mrs. Seifert. Bradley Beach.
Mr. Schine. Did they have frequent visitors to their home?
Mrs. Seifert. They had very little company, no.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us the names of some of the
individuals that came to see them regularly?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know of anyone, sir, during the time
I was there. I wouldn't remember a single person. They were
quite retirish, not much socially. They were separated at the
time.
Mr. Schine. Both were in the party?
Mrs. Seifert. I didn't make that statement. Someone who
suspected it told me that. I have no knowledge about either one
of them.
Mr. Schine. Who told you that?
Mrs. Seifert. Mr. Epstein, the attorney. He said they were
fools or some sort of eccentrics. He said it just like that. He
may have been kidding. I say he told me that is the truth.
Mr. Schine. Did they express sympathy for the Russian form
of government?
Mrs. Seifert. I never discussed politics with them.
Mr. Schine. Aside from what Mr. Epstein told you, you had
no reason to believe they were connected with the Communist
movement?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you any reason in your mind why your
security was lifted?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. I have no idea, sir. I have tried to
find out. I have no idea at all. I will admit I have had poor
associates. I will confess that, but I got away as soon as I
found out they were bad. I don't feel that I have ever done
anything disloyal which makes me a security risk.
Mr. Schine. Tell us about your poor associations.
Mrs. Seifert. Well, first of all, there is a former
associate, he used to work for the government but has been
dropped. When I was single I worked very close to him and he
invited me home to dinner.
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mrs. Seifert. Louis Kaplan.
Mr. Schine. That is the Communist Louis Kaplan? He was
discharged for being a Communist?
Mrs. Seifert. I heard rumors.
Mr. Schine. Was he working at Watson Laboratories?
Mrs. Seifert. I knew him at the standards agency, where we
both worked at the time.
Mr. Schine. When was that?
Mrs. Seifert. 1946 or 1948, I believe.
Mr. Schine. What did he look like?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know. Medium light, very ordinary
looking person. Dark hair, I think.
Mr. Schine. You spent some time with Louis Kaplan?
Mrs. Seifert. I had dinner at his house a couple of times.
At that time he was mixed up with an organization known as the
National Council for American-Soviet Friendship.
Mr. Schine. He was at that time associated with the
National Council for American Soviet Friendship?
Mrs. Seifert. It was just after the war and I guess some
people got carried away--rather not go to war with Russia. He
had organization meetings at his house. I attended two of them.
They were entirely not in my line.
Mr. Schine. You did attend some of these meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. Two, yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Will you give us the names of some of the
individuals you saw there?
Mrs. Seifert. I know this sounds funny but I don't remember
a single one. Mr. Kaplan and his wife and that is all. I
wouldn't know them if I saw them.
Mr. Schine. Did any of them work at Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Schine. Kaplan and his wife were connected with the
organization?
Mrs. Seifert. I couldn't say ``yes'' or ``no.'' I was at
their home and they had meetings.
Mr. Schine. You say that you worked together?
Mrs. Seifert. Well, not in the same office; in the same
agency.
Mr. Schine. At that time he was handling classified
material was he not?
Mrs. Seifert. I believe he was. Almost everybody was in
that agency.
Mr. Schine. Will you tell us about your other poor
associations?
Mrs. Seifert. Well, I don't again know that there was
anything wrong but I feel there is. They had a CIO union trying
to organize in the Federal Employees Union and I went to one or
two meetings. Again, I didn't like the smell and left.
Mr. Schine. Who asked you to attend?
Mrs. Seifert. I can't remember, frankly.
Mr. Schine. With whom did you go?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't remember. I may have gone alone.
Mr. Schine. You don't remember being asked to attend this
meeting?
Mrs. Seifert. It may have been Mr. Kaplan. I can't tie that
in my mind.
Mr. Schine. Tell us about your other poor associations.
Mrs. Seifert. Those are the only two that I consider
questionable--the union meeting and Louis Kaplan.
Mr. Schine. With whom was Louis Kaplan friendly?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know who his friends were, sir.
Mr. Schine. Will you try and think. It could be of great
value to us.
Mrs. Seifert. I want to think. I don't want to mention
people casually and get them in trouble. I know who he worked
with. I don't know that he saw them socially. I have never seen
anybody I knew or knew the names of in his home.
Mr. Schine. You have had recent contact with Mr. Kaplan,
have you not?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. I have not.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you were in contact with
him?
Mrs. Seifert. At least 1948 when he left the government
agency. I have never had further contact with him at all.
Mr. Schine. Try and think of the names of individuals who
worked with you and also mingled with them socially, if you
can.
Mrs. Seifert. Really, I don't know that there was one
actually. I want to help.
Mr. Schine. When you had dinner at his home, who else was
present?
Mrs. Seifert. His wife and I believe that is all.
Generally, when they had the meetings, it was after supper that
the other people came. I didn't pay too much attention.
Mr. Schine. You attended dinners at his home several times?
Mrs. Seifert. I might suggest only dinner once and perhaps
two meetings in all.
Mr. Schine. With whom did you attend meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. Just myself.
Mr. Schine. They talked about the Communist party at the
meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. Not that I remember, sir. I don't remember
parliamentary things, only something about membership.
Mr. Schine. Weren't you asked to join the party?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Do you feel the party was making overtures to
you?
Mrs. Seifert. I did not then feel so. I don't know now how
I feel about it. I think maybe they thought I was the kind of
person they could lure into the party that way.
Mr. Schine. Do you think you were being sized up by the
party?
Mrs. Seifert. Do I now think so? It is hard to say. I don't
know Kaplan to be a Communist. I don't want to implicate
anybody unless I have the facts.
Mr. Schine. At these meetings, what happened?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't even remember. I didn't get very
interested. As I say, I don't remember what happened. I wish I
could help you with something more, but I don't know anymore.
Mr. Schine. You say Louis Kaplan was the only poor
association you feel you had. Can you think of any associates
you feel the committee might think to be poor?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. From a loyalty standpoint?
Mrs. Seifert. I will try to think. I honestly can't.
Mr. Schine. Anybody you have come in contact with?
Mrs. Seifert. I really don't know. You can know a person
socially and still not know their politics are something.
Mr. Schine. Have you had some access to classified material
since your security clearance was lifted?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You haven't seen classified material?
Mrs. Seifert. I have seen it, but I have not been near it.
Mr. Schine. You have seen it?
Mrs. Seifert. Do you mean seen the outside cover or the
contents?
Mr. Schine. You probably could have seen it if you wanted
to?
Mrs. Seifert. I doubt it. The place I work they are very
careful. Nobody handles them unless they are cleared.
Mr. Schine. All right. Thank you very much for coming here
and you may go. If we need you again, we will call you.
Mrs. Seifert. Do I have any right to ask what is to become
of me? From all of the evidence, is there any reason to believe
I will be suspended?
Mr. Schine. That is up to the army. We are just gathering
material as you read in the newspapers. It is up to the army
what they do with you. We will turn some of the material over
to the army but it is their decision.
Thank you.
STATEMENT OF LAFAYETTE POPE
Mr. Schine. Will you please give us your name?
Mr. Pope. Lafayette Pope.
Mr. Schine. And you are currently employed where?
Mr. Pope. At Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. In what department do you work?
Mr. Pope. Instructor, export branch.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties?
Mr. Pope. Warehouseman.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. Pope. At this position?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Pope. Oh, about a year.
Mr. Schine. What were you doing before that?
Mr. Pope. I was a laborer at Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been employed at Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Pope. Since I started?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Pope. Since 1942.
Mr. Schine. And what did you do before that?
Mr. Pope. I was a laborer.
Mr. Schine. Where did you work?
Mr. Pope. At Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. Before you went to work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Pope. I started at Camp Evans.
Mr. Schine. How long have you worked for the army
altogether?
Mr. Pope. I started December 1942, to the present.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been under investigation at Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Pope. I think once.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about that. What happened?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir. I was just called down for a loyalty
test, I think they called it.
Mr. Schine. What did they tell you there?
Mr. Pope. They didn't say anything to me personally.
Mr. Schine. Didn't they ask you some questions? Did they
tell you some charges had been made against you?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. What did they ask you?
Mr. Pope. They asked me something about my car being in a
certain place. I told them ``no'' I didn't know anything about
that.
Mr. Schine. Do you know that your car was parked where a
Communist party meeting was being held?
Mr. Pope. I told them that time that was wrong. My car
wasn't there.
Mr. Schine. You checked the date that they said your car
was parked near the meeting and you knew it had been parked
somewhere else?
Mr. Pope. That is right.
Mr. Schine. What did they reply to that?
Mr. Pope. That was all they asked about that.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true you loaned your car to somebody
from time to time?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. You never loaned your car out to anybody?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. Do you know anyone who might have used your car
to get transportation to this place?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you drop anybody off at this place?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been near this place?
Mr. Pope. No. I don't even know where it is at.
Mr. Schine. How do you think they could have come to the
conclusion this was your car if it wasn't?
Mr. Pope. I don't know. There must be some mistake
somewhere.
Mr. Schine. You are a member of some organizations?
Mr. Pope. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us the names of those
organizations?
Mr. Pope. Can I hand them to you?
[The witness handed a paper to Mr. Schine.]
Mr. Schine. Do you belong to any other organizations?
Mr. Pope. That is all.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why you might be
under investigation?
Mr. Pope. No, I haven't.
Mr. Schine. You haven't known any Communist party members?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. Nor associated with any?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever attended any meetings?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever discussed communism with anyone?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to any front organizations?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. We appreciate your coming here today, and we
wont need you anymore. If we do, we will let you know.
Thank you very much.
STATEMENT OF RALPH IANNARONE
Mr. Schine. State your name for the record, please?
Mr. Iannarone. I-a-n-n-a-r-o-n-e.
Mr. Schine. Where are you employed?
Mr. Iannarone. At the Field Engineering Branch, Signal
Corps Engineering Laboratory, Watson Area, Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know someone named Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Iannarone. No, I do not. There use to be a girl working
there, Eleanor Glassman.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Eleanor's sister?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Cohn. But you knew Eleanor?
Mr. Iannarone. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When did she work with you?
Mr. Iannarone. Approximately 1941 and 1942, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. And did you know she was a Communist?
Mr. Iannarone. No, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. How did she get that job with you?
Mr. Iannarone. As I remember, she was one of a group of
girls that were hired back at the beginning of the war as
professional assistants, JPAs. She was one of a half a dozen
girls that came to the section out of tens of hundreds that
might have been employed at that time.
Mr. Schine. Were you friendly with this lady?
Mr. Iannarone. Only as a business associate, not outside
the laboratory. She was one of several girls that worked either
for me or in the section at that time.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have an argument or fight with
her?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why she would want
to hurt you?
Mr. Iannarone. No, I can't.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why she would want
to get you into trouble? We have testimony from her concerning
you and when the chairman of the committee asked whether or not
you were a member of the Communist party to her knowledge, she
refused to answer that question on the grounds that if she
answered it truthfully, she might tend to incriminate herself.
Can you tell us anything about her, her associates, her
activities?
Try and think back and give us all the information you can,
if you will please.
Mr. Iannarone. No, I have difficulty even remembering the
girl. I have a vague recollection of what she looked like,
except I couldn't picture her face at all. I remember she was
just there for a short time. The little bit of recollection I
have of her, she was a very pleasant person. I can't remember
anything about the work, whether she was among the best or
poorest of people we had. I remember she resigned in perhaps
1942; then she used my name as a reference going to school. I
got two letters, one from the Columbia School of Social Science
and another from Smith College, and there was a form letter
saying she had used my name as a reference and would I please
reply by answering certain questions.
I replied to both letters saying I knew her during her
employment in the laboratory; that she was in my section; and
as far as I knew--the usual words. Nothing against her or I
wasn't trying to build her up particularly. My acquaintance was
fairly short, perhaps six months or a year. I have copies of
those letters, routine type of thing.
Mr. Schine. What year was this?
Mr. Iannarone. I would guess 1942. Perhaps late 1941.
Mr. Schine. Could you tell us about your association?
Mr. Iannarone. I have never met her outside the office. I
never had anything to do with her outside the office.
Mr. Schine. What department were you in at the time?
Mr. Iannarone. Well, I was in the P. L. and M. Section,
Parts Lists and Maintenance Parts Section.
Mr. Schine. Did you handle classified work in your office?
Mr. Iannarone. Probably so, although in parts work there is
very little classified work.
Mr. Schine. She would have access to any classified work
you did handle?
Mr. Iannarone. Probably so. I think everybody that came in
had clearance and she could have handled it.
Mr. Schine. Did you know at any time after that that she
was tied up with the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I never heard her name mentioned again until
last week in the paper I saw Vivian Glassman. I looked it up in
the file not remembering whether it was Vivian or Eleanor. That
is the first time I had heard the name. In discussions I
learned that Eleanor might have been Vivian's sister.
Mr. Schine. Did Julius Rosenberg ever have occasion to
visit your office?
Mr. Iannarone. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. Did she ever talk about her friends or anything
to you?
Mr. Iannarone. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Carr. What information can you give for her taking the
Fifth Amendment as to whether or not you were a member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I can't possibly conceive of why she would
do it.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever sympathetic?
Mr. Iannarone. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever a member of any organization which
has been designated as a Communist front?
Mr. Iannarone. Never, not to my knowledge. I am not a
joiner. I belong to three organizations, Knights of Columbus,
Holy Name Society--I went into the service in October 1942 and
I think this association must have been before. I was out of
the laboratory about three months and came back in a different
section. Although I am just guessing now, it might have been
after I was in the service. The contact was no more than
supervisor over fifteen or thirty girls.
Mr. Carr. There were thirty people in the section and she
was one of the thirty people. She used your name as a reference
on two occasions after her leaving.
Mr. Iannarone. Immediately after leaving she used my name
on two occasions, both at the same time, evidently she applied
for college graduate work. I haven't seen her since.
Mr. Carr. Maybe you can give us some help on one further
point here, that is regarding the name of individuals you have
known who were tied up with the subversive movement.
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Would you repeat the question? The only other name I can
think of was another fellow who was fired named Joel Barr.
Mr. Carr. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. Iannarone. He was, I believe, in the same section about
the same time, and I remember he was suspended one day, much to
everyone's surprise. This is the only other person, besides
this girl if you say she was mixed up with Communists, that I
know about.
Mr. Carr. Could you tell us any more about this incident
with Joel Barr?
Mr. Iannarone. No, nothing except it came as a complete
surprise to everyone at the time.
Mr. Carr. You can't tell us anything more?
Mr. Iannarone. I can tell you a little more. He was one of
those people that everybody in the section liked. He was a
likable fellow. It was the first incident which ever came to my
knowledge and most everybody else's of somebody being picked
out of the place and suspended. Everybody's sympathy went to
the fellow. We couldn't understand on what basis the man was
suspended. At that time half a dozen or perhaps a dozen
petitions were circulating around the place. I signed a
petition to the commanding officer of the laboratory to please
very carefully consider whether he had done the right thing, to
review the situation. My name wound up on one of the petitions.
I signed one of them. I am sorry I ever did. It has been
bothering me ever since. Evidently that was the only petition
that ever got in. The rest of them got torn up or something.
Some of the people got hold of them and got their names off.
Mr. Carr. This petition was originated by whom?
Mr. Iannarone. I don't remember.
Mr. Carr. Do you know who the main circulator of the
petition was?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Carr. You don't know who wrote it or what----
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Carr. What happened to Joel Barr?
Mr. Iannarone. I never heard of him until the other day
someone said Joel Barr's name was in the papers and he is
possibly behind the iron curtain.
Mr. Carr. Do you know why he was suspended?
Mr. Iannarone. I have no idea.
Mr. Carr. He was a close friend of Glassman's, was he not?
Mr. Iannarone. I didn't know that.
Mr. Carr. Just one more question. Before, we had a girl who
refused to answer whether or not she knew you were a member of
the Communist party. This girl was one of thirty employees of
yours. It could be that she was frightened, afraid, scared,
maybe not answering any questions, but now we have a girl who
was closely associated with the Rosenberg spy trial, closely
associated with Joel Barr; we have your statement that you
signed a petition for Joel Barr's behalf; we have a girl
refusing to say whether or not you are a member of the
Communist party.
Mr. Iannarone. I was one of perhaps one hundred people who
signed the petition.
Mr. Carr. But you were the one she refused to say whether
or not you were a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I can't explain why she would do that. As I
said, I only knew her when she worked there as an employee. I
had no relationship socially or other than right in the office.
Mr. Carr. It is your statement now that you have never been
a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I have never been a member of the Communist
party or any party looked upon as subversive or even close to
subversive. I am categorically not a Communist.
Mr. Carr. Do you remember other individuals who signed this
petition?
Mr. Iannarone. Yes, I do. I have a copy of the petition.
Mr. Carr. Oh, fine. That will help us quite a bit.
Mr. Iannarone. I am sorry I put my name on it. Most of the
petitions were torn up at the time. People learned somewhere or
other that this was a Communist thing. I didn't know it at the
time I signed it.
Mr. Carr. Do you know Robert Ullmann?
Mr. Iannarone. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. He has a brother----
Mr. Iannarone. I didn't know he had a brother.
Mr. Carr. Did you know he was any relation to Marcel
Ullmann? Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you originate this petition?
Mr. Iannarone. I don't think so.
Mr. Cohn. I asked that because your name is the first one.
Mr. Iannarone. Unfortunately my name got on the top of one.
There were about ten around at the time.
Mr. Carr. Weren't you a friend of Barr's?
Mr. Iannarone. Not any more so than Eleanor Glassman's.
Mr. Carr. How was it you were so happy to go to bat for
him?
Mr. Iannarone. It came as a complete surprise. The fellow
was a likeable fellow. He had been with us a year and got along
well with people. It was a complete shock to everyone and their
sympathy went with the fellow.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know where he is now?
Mr. Iannarone. I heard the other day he is behind the Iron
Curtain.
Mr. Schine. May we have this copy. We have no further
questions. If we need you again we will ask you to come back.
Mr. Cohn. You can't tell us who hired this Eleanor
Glassman?
Mr. Iannarone. The personnel department does all the
hiring.
Mr. Cohn. Who was head of the personnel department at that
time?
Mr. Iannarone. I don't remember at that time.
Mr. Schine. Have you some other papers with you?
Mr. Iannarone. That is the only thing. I didn't know at the
time whether I was a friendly or unfriendly witness. You might
say something to a person what it is all about. I spent a
couple of miserable nights after being called. I went through
the files after I remembered that thing. I thought that might
be the reason and pulled it out of the file.
Mr. Schine. We appreciate your coming in. We call a lot of
people in an effort to find out all of the facts.
Mr. Iannarone. I will help in any way I can.
STATEMENT OF SAUL FINKELSTEIN
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name, please?
Mr. Finkelstein. Saul Finkelstein.
Mr. Schine. Where are you working?
Mr. Finkelstein. I work at Watson, Area A.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Finkelstein. At Watson Area or the general Signal
Corps?
Mr Schine. The Signal Corps?
Mr. Finkelstein. Sixteen years.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties?
Mr. Finkelstein. Chief of the Radar Metan and General
Equipment Section of the Field Engineering Branch.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties there?
Mr. Finkelstein. Briefly stated, our section is in charge
of the initiation of production guiding, initiation production
of Signal Corps equipment.
Mr. Schine. You have access to classified material?
Mr. Finkelstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. You have been cleared for top secret?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir up to secret.
Mr. Schine. You have been handling secret material for a
number of years?
Mr. Finkelstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Do you know someone by the name Glassman?
Mr. Finkelstein. What is the first name?
Mr. Schine. Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Eleanor Glassman?
Mr. Finkelstein. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about your acquaintance with
Eleanor Glassman, please?
Mr. Finkelstein. About 1941 or 1942, I don't remember the
exact year, the laboratory hired a number of girls and called
them JPAs, Junior Professional Assistants. Their duties were to
help in the preparation of specifications.
Mr. Schine. Now, did you know Eleanor Glassman well?
Mr. Finkelstein. Just in the work.
Mr. Schine. Did you have a fight with her?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why she might want
to harm you?
Mr. Finkelstein. No.
Mr. Schine. When she was asked whether or not you were a
member of the Communist party, she refused to answer on the
grounds if she did, she might tend to incriminate herself. Can
you think of any reason she may have done that?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been connected with the Communist
party?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any Communists?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Eleanor Glassman was a Communist?
Mr. Finkelstein. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. You never knew she was?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been tied up with any front
organizations?
Mr. Finkelstein. I would say, between 1932 and 1938, I
belonged to what is now called a front organization. It was a
fraternal organization in which I took out insurance.
Mr. Schine. What was the name of the organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't know the name it was called at
that time. It has since been called the International Worker's
Order.
Mr. Schine. You belonged to that group for six years?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't remember the exact time.
Mr. Schine. Up to about 1938 you attended meetings?
Mr. Finkelstein. My recollection is one or two meetings to
pay dues.
Mr. Schine. At that time you were working for the army?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't remember when I left the
organization, probably either the end of 1937 or 1938. I was
probably working for the army.
Mr. Schine. Did you know that was a Communist-dominated
organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. No.
Mr. Schine. Do you know that now? Have you ever known it
since?
Mr. Finkelstein. I understand that organization has now
been declared subversive.
Mr. Schine. Who got you to join that organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. My recollection is that it was some
friends who advised me. I needed some insurance and also
medical advice.
Mr. Schine. Do you know his name?
Mr. Finkelstein. To the best of my recollection, I can't
say who asked me to join.
Mr. Schine. What was the name?
Mr. Finkelstein. Rubinowitz.
Mr. Schine. Sol Rubinowitz?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, he was a man that came from the same
town with me. His name was George Rubinowitz.
Mr. Schine. Was he working for the Signal Corps.? Where was
he working?
Mr. Finkelstein. He either had a grocery or something.
Mr. Schine. Would you spell his name?
Mr. Finkelstein. To the best of my recollection, R-u-b-i-n-
o-w-i-t-z.
Mr. Schine. Was he an active member of this organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't know whether he was a member.
Mr. Schine. He advised you to join----
Mr. Finkelstein. He advised me--we were discussing my
financial situation. I needed medical advice and he said, ``Why
don't you join this organization.''
Mr. Schine. Any other organizations listed as subversive by
the attorney general?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us any information on Eleanor
Glassman's associates, people she mingled with socially?
Mr. Finkelstein. Frankly, I don't know. All the girls were
friendly with each other.
Mr. Schine. Did they go out socially with some of the men
working in the office?
Mr. Finkelstein. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. You wouldn't know?
Mr. Finkelstein. No.
Mr. Schine. Was she particularly friendly with any of the
girls working in the office?
Mr. Finkelstein. I frankly can't remember whether she was
or not. They were all together, came from one school. They were
all friendly together. I couldn't tell.
Mr. Schine. I have no more questions. Thank you very much.
We will call you if we need you.
STATEMENT OF ABRAHAM LEPATO
Mr. Carr. Would you give us your name, please?
Mr. Lepato. Abraham Lepato.
Mr. Carr. Any middle initial?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. What is your address?
Mr. Lepato. 1317 Evergreen Avenue, Wanamassa, New Jersey,
Allenhurst 31237R.
Mr. Carr. Are you employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Lepato. Evans.
Mr. Carr. In what capacity?
Mr. Lepato. Technician.
Mr. Carr. What particular branch?
Mr. Lepato. Thermionics.
Mr. Carr. Who is your supervisor?
Mr. Lepato. Right now Harry Owens is section chief.
Mr. Carr. Are you cleared for secret work?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir. I haven't been for two years.
Mr. Carr. Can you explain your relationship with Louie
Kaplan?
Mr. Lepato. There are two. Which one do you mean?
Mr. Carr. Louie Kaplan, who left the Signal Corps, I think,
in 1947.
Mr. Lepato. Yes, sir. I believe he lived right next door.
He moved into 27 Washington Village in 1943. I moved in in 1943
and they moved in right after. I don't remember when; a few
months later. I moved from Washington Village in December of
1949. From 1943 to 1949 we were neighbors at Washington
Village.
Mr. Carr. What is his wife's name?
Mr. Lepato. Ruth.
Mr. Carr. And your wife's name is Sadie?
Mr. Lepato. Yes.
Mr. Carr. During the period that you were neighbors, how
close were you?
Mr. Lepato. Well, as close as neighbors. We visited back
and forth and talked across the fence. We did go into their
house. They came into our house. Living together for five years
you get to know a person next door.
Mr. Lepato. Could I say something?
Mr. Carr. Yes
Mr. Lepato. I volunteered testimony to the FBI for two and
a half hours concerning this.
Mr. Carr. Could you tell us a little something about
Kaplan. When did you first discover he had Communist
affiliations?
Mr. Lepato. Well, I can't remember dates. They are very
vague. I know his wife was always sending envelopes to the
Soviet Friendship Committee or something during the war and
doing Russian war relief. She was always a person to push
herself ahead in anything that happened. They use to have
meetings in her house continuously, night after night and she
was always going all over.
Mr. Carr. Did you and your wife attend any of these
meetings?
Mr. Lepato. I will tell you exactly what I did attend with
him. After he moved in he asked me to attend a union meeting
with him. He had no car. I drove him to the union meeting on
Springwood Avenue, Ashley Place, Murry Cardinals Athletic Club.
I never went again. That is the only time I went to the union
meeting. I didn't join the union.
Mr. Carr. What union?
Mr. Lepato. To tell you the truth, I don't remember.
Mr. Carr. Could it have been the Federal Workers--United
Federal Workers?
Mr. Lepato. I think so. I went there with him.
Mr. Carr. That is the only meeting you went to with him?
Mr. Lepato. In 1948, presidential elections, we use to have
a community hall in Washington Village and whoever wanted to
could get it if they asked for it. They had a meeting of the
Progressive party. My wife and I--we lived right across from
it--went to see what it was all about. Seeing that Ruth and Lou
Kaplan were involved, both of us refused to join. We left the
meeting.
Mr. Carr. Did you discontinue your association with them
once you knew they were Communists?
Mr. Lepato. I never had any political association with
them. We were social with them.
Mr. Carr. Your wife was very friendly with his wife, wasn't
she?
Mr. Lepato. Neighbors, not political.
Mr. Carr. She never attended any of the women's socials of
the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship?
Mr. Lepato. Never belonged; never attended.
Mr. Carr. She didn't help out with the Russian war relief?
Mr. Lepato. I don't believe she did.
Mr. Carr. When you say you did give this information to the
FBI, did you mean you were giving it to the FBI during the
period you lived there?
Mr. Lepato. No, they never came to me. In December they
called me down. The FBI security officer asked me about
Coleman, Ducore, Yamins, and that is all he wanted to know. I
asked did he have any time to spend with me; if he would please
sit down and listen to what I had to say. He listened to me and
I spoke to him for over two hours, I think. He asked me
questions and I told him everything I knew what I told him was
a small part of what had happened over five years. I invited
him to my house to see my wife since she knew them well also
and she could give them more information and he said they would
come but they never did.
Mr. Carr. You say you didn't join this Progressive party in
1948?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir. I never did. They had a meeting. I
think Wallace spoke at Gimbel's place. They asked me to go
along.
I refused to go along. I knew he didn't have a chance and I
wanted to vote for somebody else.
Mr. Carr. Since the Kaplans moved from their residence next
door to you, have you had contact with them?
Mr. Lepato. Well, I walked into Sears and Roebuck a year
ago and saw Ruth Kaplan and walked out. I walked into
Steinbeck's and saw her and turned around and went to the floor
below. I dread them like the worst disease, like cholera.
Mr. Carr. The situation appears that you were very friendly
at one time.
Mr. Lepato. As neighbors, nothing but neighbors.
Mr. Carr. The part I don't quite understand, when did you
start avoiding them?
Mr. Lepato. A few years before we moved.
Mr. Carr. Was that after you found out they were
Communists?
Mr. Lepato. Well, let me say this. Louis Kaplan worked for
the government up until 1947. From what I understand now, he
wasn't suspended or anything. He was allowed to resign. They
gave him a party when he left. He got a briefcase or something
as a gift when he left. Also, I understand he got a civilian
meritorious award while he worked for the government.
Mr. Cohn. Which government?
Mr. Lepato. The Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. Is he the only Communist you know?
Mr. Lepato. I believe so. I know his brother-in-law. I know
his sister-in-law, Sokel.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Lepato. I figured he married into that family and he
knew what he was doing.
They asked me about a fellow, Bennet Davis. I didn't
remember the name. I knew a fellow, Ben Davis, who was a friend
of Kaplan. I understood he was the same way.
Mr. Cohn. Who else did you see around Kaplan's place?
Mr. Lepato. I did meet her sister, I think it was.
Mr. Cohn. What was her name?
Mr. Lepato. I don't remember.
Mr. Cohn. How about people from Fort Monmouth or Watson?
Mr. Lepato. The only one I had pointed out to me worked at
Evans was Ullmann.
Mr. Cohn. Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Lepato. Yes. They were pretty friendly. I saw him there
a few times.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Ullmann?
Mr. Lepato. Not on the outside. I may have spoken to him in
the place.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Lepato. Not until I saw he knew the Kaplans.
Mr. Carr. Mr. Lepato, your association with Kaplan did not
continue after he moved away?
Mr. Lepato. I moved away before him.
Mr. Carr. You never called him?
Mr. Lepato. I never saw him since. I was never in his new
home after he moved away.
Mr. Carr. You never visited with Ullmann?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir. I never knew where he lived and never
visited him.
Mr. Carr. How about Ben Davis, the friend of Kaplan's?
Mr. Lepato. I never visited his house.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Lepato. I don't believe he worked for the government,
no. I walked into a radio store in Ashbury Park and I saw him
in there and I turned around and walked away. Honestly I did.
Mr. Carr. That is all, I guess. Thank you,
STATEMENT OF IRVING ROSENHEIM
Mr. Cohn. Give us your full name.
Mr. Rosenheim. Irving L. Rosenheim.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work?
Mr. Rosenheim. Armed Service Electrical Standards Agency.
Mr. Cohn. At Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Rosenheim. At Monmouth, off the reservation.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you worked for the Armed Services
Electrical Standards Agency?
Mr. Rosenheim. Since February 16, 1943. It has had various
names but it is basically the standards agency.
Mr. Cohn. Does it have any connection with the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Rosenheim. At present, no. It started as the original
Signal Corps Standards Agency handling that type of work. It
became the Army Electrical Standards Agency; then it became the
Army-Navy Electrical Standards Agency and then the Armed
Services. It seemed an independent agency sponsored by the
three departments.
Mr. Cohn. Now, what are the three departments?
Mr. Rosenheim. Army, navy and air force.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do some work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Rosenheim. We don't work directly for them, sponsored
by them.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do work on classified material?
Mr. Rosenheim. I was before I was declassified and
suspended authorized to handle it but never used----
Mr. Cohn. When were you suspended?
Mr. Rosenheim. Tuesday. Just last week, Tuesday.
Mr. Cohn. Did you get a letter of charges?
Mr. Rosenheim. No, I did not. They said it would be mailed
to me.
Mr. Cohn. You have not been given any information as to the
exact nature of the charges on which you were suspended?
Mr. Rosenheim. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever a registered member of the American
Labor party?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Rosenheim. Quite a few years back. I got out when the
left-wing took over. I guess that was about six years ago.
Mr. Cohn. That was the United Federal Workers of America?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You say you were a member until six or seven
years ago?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Louie Kaplan?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know that he is a Communist?
Mr. Rosenheim. I was told that by the executive officer
about six months after he quit.
Mr. Cohn. You had no reason to suspect it before?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes, when he got declassified I got
suspicious.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you know him?
Mr. Rosenheim. I knew him at work, and, I believe, in
Brooklyn. He lived out there.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ride back and forth to work when he lived
out there?
Mr. Rosenheim. I may have met him on the train
occasionally. I don't recall definitely yes or definitely no.
We did work together. That was basically the full contact.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever say anything during your work which
led you to believe he was a Communist or Communist sympathizer?
Mr. Rosenheim. The only thing he said something about you
can't blame me for what my wife does. He quit in a hurry after
he was declassified. I figured that his wife was doing
something.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Consumer's
Union?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Rosenheim. I don't know when I started. I quit it about
six or seven years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that was under Communist domination?
Mr. Rosenheim. No, and I will tell you why I quit. About
that time, before I quit, the president refused to take the
loyalty oath. I couldn't see why. He worked for the government
and I couldn't see why he didn't, so I said, ``To hell with
it.'' I didn't want to get tied up and quit.
Mr. Cohn. When you were with the United Federal Workers of
America, did you participate in a speaking program?
Mr. Rosenheim. I never attended meetings. All I did was pay
dues when they asked me.
Mr. Cohn. You never had anything to do with arranging for
any speakers?
Mr. Rosenheim. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you acquainted with any other Communists,
either at your work or outside?
Mr. Rosenheim. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Any people you believe or had reason to believe
or grounds to suspect----
Mr. Rosenheim. I leave the house at five and get home at
7:00, so you see how much social life I have outside.
Mr. Cohn. There is nobody in addition to Kaplan you can
tell us about?
Mr. Rosenheim. Wait a minute. There was a guy by the name
of Lavene. He worked at the agency for a few months. I didn't
know him. He wasn't in my section. He was caught in reduction-
in-force and at an agency staff meeting, he made a crack which
led me to believe he was one of those guys.
Mr. Cohn. What was his first name?
Mr. Rosenheim. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Outside of those, you don't know of anybody.
Mr. Rosenheim. Let me think if I can be suspicious.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody you had reasonable grounds to believe?
Mr. Rosenheim. No.
Mr. Cohn. You testimony is that you left the Consumer's
Union and the American Labor party and United Federal Workers
when you discovered the group--had reason to believe they were
Communist dominated?
Mr. Rosenheim. Not Communist necessarily, but I didn't like
the way they were going on. I left the AFL when the left-wing
took over. They had a big fight and that is when I quit.
[Doris Seifert returned and stated that she desired to add
to her testimony, in response to a previous question asked her,
that she knew a man by the name of, ``Galler'' through Lou
Kaplan.]
STATEMENT OF RICHARD JONES, JR.
Mr. Carr. Your name is Richard Jones?
Mr. Jones. Jones, Jr.
Mr. Carr. What is your address?
Mr. Jones. 949 Woodgate Avenue, Elberon.
Mr. Carr. What is your telephone number?
Mr. Jones. Long Branch 6573W.
Mr. Carr. Are you presently employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Carr. You have security clearance?
Mr. Jones. I think so. I am sure----
Mr. Carr. What is your position now?
Mr. Jones. More or less the bookkeeper, Department of
Finance.
Mr. Carr. Did you know a man named George W. Good?
Mr. Jones. No, I don't.
Mr. Carr. You are sure you don't know a man named George
Good of Wanarnassa, New Jersey?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. Your address is 949 Woodgate, Elberon?
Mr. Jones. Right.
Mr. Carr. What kind of automobile do you have?
Mr. Jones. 1952 Ford.
Mr. Carr. How long have you had that?
Mr. Jones. About two weeks, I guess.
Mr. Carr. What is the license plates on the car?
Mr. Jones. I think it is 296, I am not sure.
Mr. Carr. What number do you think it is?
Mr. Jones. 296, I think.
Mr. Carr. MS296?
Mr. Jones. MS, I know.
Mr. Carr. Are you married?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Carr. What does your car look like?
Mr. Jones. Blue. I guess it is called--blue anyway.
Mr. Carr. Let me ask you this. Were you working in July of
1953 or were you on leave?
Mr. Jones. This past summer, I took my vacation in August.
Mr. Carr. Then you probably were working?
Mr. Jones. Probably. I took every Thursday and Friday in
August. That is how I took my vacation.
Mr. Carr. What are your regular working hours?
Mr. Jones. Well, regular hours are from eight to a quarter
of five. We had them changed a while in August from 7:30 to a
quarter after four and a half hour lunch.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall on August 8, 1953, driving your
car, at approximately five o'clock in the evening, and stopping
where you met another car; you met a young woman; getting out
and exchanging packages?
Mr. Jones. It could be my wife. She had the use of my
father-in-law's car. She stays there in the summer.
Mr. Carr. What is your father-in-law's name?
Mr. Jones. Graham, but I don't ever remember. She was
usually down at the beach with the kids, I mean.
Mr. Carr. Is your wife a blond?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Carr. On July 8th of this past summer, you, or someone
driving your car--the description fits you--drove your car to
the intersection of Rosen Avenue and Monmouth Drive in Deal,
New Jersey. You were met by another car, license number I have,
who stopped your car, opened the utilities base in the rear of
the car; the other car stopped; a young woman got out and you
transferred briefcases.
Mr. Jones. No, not me.
Mr. Carr. Do you have a brother who drives your car?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. Does anybody else have access to your car?
Mr. Jones. No, I always had the car.
Mr. Carr. Any other driver of your car other than your
wife?
Mr. Jones. She is the only one.
Mr. Carr. You don't loan your car to anyone?
Mr. Jones. Occasionally.
Mr. Carr. Your license number is MS296?
Mr. Jones. MS296 or 293. 296 I am pretty sure.
Mr. Carr. In July did you have a white Ford, 1950 Ford.
Mr. Jones. Light grey.
Mr. Carr. What was the make of it?
Mr. Jones. Ford, 1950, two door.
Mr. Carr. Did it look like a Ford or was it whittled down
or supped up or anything?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. This is your car all right. You have no
explanation for it. You say it couldn't possibly have been you?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Cohn. Who else could it have been?
Mr. Jones. That I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. To whom have you loaned your car?
Mr. Jones. No one. That is it.
Mr. Cohn. On July 8, 1953, apparently just at the time you
finished work--did you drive your car to work?
Mr. Jones. Sure, every day.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever lend it to a fellow employee?
Mr. Jones. [The witness shook his head negatively.]
Mr. Carr. Does your car have a Fort Monmouth identification
tag?
Mr. Jones. Certainly.
Mr. Carr. You don't know a man by the name of George Good?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. You have never heard of him?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. What was your old car before you got the new one?
Was that a 1950 Ford?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Carr. A white one?
Mr. Jones. Yes. The only one I ever picked up with a
briefcase was my father-in-law from the train and that is at
the station at Allenhurst.
Mr. Carr. This is not picking up. This is just transferring
from one car to another.
Mr. Jones. I don't know.
Mr. Carr. There was a young man driving the other car and a
young woman got out and made the transfer.
Mr. Jones. It doesn't even ring a bell.
Mr. Carr. Okay, we will have to let it go for now. We will
talk to you again. We will let you know when to come back.
Thank you.
[Whereupon the hearing adjourned.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--None of the witnesses at this staff
interrogatory, Edward Brody, Max Katz, Henry Jasik, Capt.
Benjamin Sheehan, Russell Gaylord Ranney (1911-1987), Susan
Moon, Peter Rosmovsky, and Sarah Omanson, testified at a public
hearing.]
----------
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 27, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: G. David Schine, chief consultant; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr, staff director; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel; James Juliana, investigator.
Present also: Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, commandant, Fort
Monmouth; Lt. Richardson McKinney.
STATEMENT OF EDWARD BRODY (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, IRA J.
KATCHEN)
Mr. Schine. Would you give your name for the record?
Mr. Brody. Edward Brody.
Mr. Schine. And will counsel give his name?
Mr. Katchen. Ira J. Katchen, 156 Broadway, Long Branch, New
Jersey.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed, Mr. Brody?
Mr. Brody. At present I am unemployed.
Mr. Schine. Were you employed by the government?
Mr. Brody. That is right.
Mr. Schine. State the circumstances of your employment.
Mr. Brody. I worked at Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What year to what year?
Mr. Brody. May 1951 to October 1953.
Mr. Schine. What was the reason for your departure?
Mr. Brody. I haven't been informed yet.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mr. Brody. Belmont, New Jersey most of the time.
Mr. Cohn. What is the exact address?
Mr. Brody. I have had quite a few. The last one is 603 10th
Avenue.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever live on Eaton Terrace?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know another man by the name of
Brody who worked at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. There may be. I don't recall. I never met him.
Mr. Schine. During your work at Fort Monmouth what were
your duties?
Mr. Brody. Physicist.
Mr. Schine. And you were cleared for classified work?
Mr. Brody. That is right.
Mr. Schine. You had access to classified work?
Mr. Brody. That is right.
Mr. Schine. What were you exact duties?
Mr. Brody. In the last two years, research group, south
state physics. That work there was not classified.
Mr. Schine. And you say you have not been informed of the
circumstances of your suspension?
Mr. Brody. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. Were you suspended or dismissed?
Mr. Brody. Suspended.
Mr. Schine. Are you still on the payroll?
Mr. Brody. I am on leave without pay, I believe.
Mr. Schine. Have you been able to think of any reason why
Fort Monmouth would suspend you?
Mr. Brody. Possibly.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about the reason?
Mr. Brody. At school I belonged to the American Veterans
Committee. I registered ALP on occasions.
Mr. Cohn. What years?
Mr. Brody. 1947 and 1950.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that ALP was under Communist
domination at that time?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't know that?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you read the newspapers?
Mr. Brody. I read a few.
Mr. Cohn. Haven't you read the fact that ALP was very
plainly under Communist domination at that time?
Mr. Brody. Some of the papers claimed that. Others didn't.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Brody, what are the other reasons you
thought were the causes for your suspension from Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. I believe they made some mention of my brother's
activities. They didn't like the fact he registered ALP.
Mr. Schine. Is your brother ``Seymour''?
Mr. Brody. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Where does he live?
Mr. Brody. Manhattan.
Mr. Schine. What is the address?
Mr. Brody. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. What does he do?
Mr. Brody. He works as a waiter here in the city.
Mr. Schine. Has he ever worked for the government?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell the other reasons that you have
in mind that were cause for your dismissal?
Mr. Brody. That is all.
Mr. Schine. Have you belonged to some organizations which
you feel were subversive?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. You feel you never belonged to organizations
which were subversive. Will you tell us what organizations you
belonged to?
Mr. Brody. I belonged to the American Veterans Committee at
Brooklyn College, the school chapter. It started out as an
independent veterans group and, I think, after it had been
organized approximately a year and a half or two, it was
affiliated with the American Veterans Committee.
Mr. Schine. What other organization?
Mr. Brody. That is the only organization I was a member of
except the Physics Society in school and that was non-
political.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to any other front
organizations?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever live in Brooklyn?
Mr. Brody. That is where I lived most of my life.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever belong to the Neptune Branch of
the Communist party?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. Has your wife been connected with some----
Mr. Brody. I am not married.
Mr. Schine. You say you know of no other Brody employed at
Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. I have heard of another Brody. This was in
connection with some equipment and they thought I was somebody
else. I don't know where he works or what he does. I have never
met him.
Mr. Schine. Have you heard that that Brody is a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Brody. I don't know anything about him.
Mr. Schine. Any relatives of yours working for the
government?
Mr. Brody. Not my immediate family.
Mr. Schine. Any cousins, aunts----
Mr. Brody. My kid brother is in the air force.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever live at 17 Eaton Place?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You were never married? Correct?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. Where did you get your college training?
Mr. Brody. Brooklyn College.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any members of the Communist
party?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. You have never been acquainted with any of
them, talked with any of them?
Mr. Brody. Not to my knowledge--that they were members of
the party.
Mr. Schine. Is there any information that you would care to
give the committee that you feel would be of value to us?
Mr. Brody. In my family there are four males. All four
served the government in service, three of us in the last war,
approximately nine years of service, five overseas. My younger
brother is still in the air force, just got back from Korea. He
was there approximately a year. My older brother was with the
marines three and a half years, two and a half in the Pacific.
Mr. Cohn. Which brother registered in the American Labor
party?
Mr. Brody. Seymour.
Mr. Cohn. When was the last year of his registration?
Mr. Brody. Approximately the same time as mine.
Mr. Cohn. It is inconceivable to me that you didn't know
the ALP was under Communist domination. If you remember in 1943
it broke up and the liberal party broke away, formed an anti-
Communist segment. From then on it has been a Communist outfit
and officially listed as such, very widely publicized.
Where did you see any statement that the ALP was not under
Communist domination?
Mr. Brody. I am not a member of the Communist party so I
will have to presume. Some of the papers violently stated that
it was and others didn't make mention of it.
Mr. Cohn. Did it disturb you when it was alleged that it
was?
Mr. Brody. I thought about it but not to the point I got
excited.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing in 1950?
Mr. Brody. I graduated from school at that time.
Mr. Cohn. When did you start working for the government?
Mr. Brody. I started in 1951.
Mr. Cohn. You did not register in ALP in 1951?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You say it did not disturb you enough to do
anything about it in 1950 when you heard it was under Communist
domination?
Mr. Brody. I thought it might have been but I wasn't
convinced at the time.
Mr. Cohn. Prior to your suspension from Fort Monmouth you
were questioned, weren't you?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You were never questioned?
Mr. Brody. No, I received an interrogatory--written.
Mr. Cohn. You filled that out and it was after that they
suspended you?
Mr. Brody. No, that was in May approximately I sent back
the interrogatory.
Mr. Schine. You have never been questioned or asked to
appear at a hearing or anything of that sort?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. What have you been doing since you left Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. It has only been two weeks. I haven't been doing
anything.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much for coming. If we need you
again we will get in touch with you.
Mr. Cohn. Did he give you his address where he can be
reached now?
Mr. Brody. 2363 18th Street, Brooklyn, New York.
STATEMENT OF MAX KATZ
Mr. Schine. Will you give us your name for the record?
Mr. Katz. My name is Max Katz.
Mr. Schine. Are you connected with Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Katz. I work there.
Mr. Schine. What is your job at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Katz. I am a chemist.
Mr. Schine. And your duties as such?
Mr. Katz. I work in the field of surface chemistry measure
of powdered material.
Mr. Schine. You are cleared for classified work?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Schine. And you have access to classified material?
Mr. Katz. I very rarely see classified information although
I am cleared.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Katz. City College.
Mr. Schine. When you were at City College did you know
Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Katz. No. The only time I knew he went to City College
was when I read it in the newspapers recently.
Mr. Schine. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. When did you leave City College?
Mr. Katz. 1941.
Mr. Schine. You have belonged to a number of organizations
in the past years. Would you give us the names of those
organizations? We'd like to know the names of the organizations
and when you joined them?
Mr. Katz. Well, the only organization I can recall is the
American Veterans' Committee. I don't remember the date but
probably 1946 or 1947.
Mr. Schine. What were the circumstances under which you
joined the American Veterans Committee?
Mr. Katz. Well, I don't recall exactly except I had heard
that there was such an organization. I went down to some of the
meetings.
Mr. Schine. You were a member of some other organizations,
weren't you?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to any other organizations?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to an organization listed as
a front organization by the attorney general?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Or any front organization?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did you know the American Veterans Committee
was Communist dominated?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Which chapter did you belong to?
Mr. Katz. Monmouth County chapter.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the time Barry Bernstein was the
chairman?
Mr. Katz. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't the Communists get control of that chapter
and wasn't it dissolved?
Mr. Katz. Not to my knowledge. It folded up.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present when a vote was taken up as to
whether or not Communists should be barred?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. How did you vote?
Mr. Katz. I voted not to bar them.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't that a pretty straight vote along
Communist lines?
Mr. Katz. No, I don't think that. I felt that it was better
to stand up and be counted rather than to have them dig under
without being aware of them.
That was the reason for my vote. There were about two
people out of a total membership of better than two hundred who
admitted to being Communist.
Mr. Cohn. Was one of them Bennett Davis?
Mr. Katz. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Albert Saltz?
Mr. Katz. The name sounds familiar.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know Bernstein?
Mr. Katz. Casually. I have met him in the laboratories
occasionally.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have any discussions with him about
politics?
Mr. Katz. Not about politics. We happen to belong to a book
club, the Great Books Club.
Mr. Cohn. That is another organization. Where did that
meet?
Mr. Katz. I think that was in the Long Branch YMCA.
Mr. Cohn. Now, during those discussions did you discuss
such documents as the Communist Manifesto?
Mr. Katz. No, we never discussed that.
Mr. Cohn. Well, it was discussed there. Maybe you weren't
present at the meeting.
Mr. Katz. I don't recall it.
Mr. Cohn. How about Civil Disobedience?
Mr. Katz. I don't recall any such.
Mr. Cohn. From your observation of Bernstein tell us
whether or not you think he is a Communist?
Mr. Katz. To my knowledge he is not a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear him say anything which would
indicate that he was against Communism?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What?
Mr. Katz. I can't recall any specific comment but my
impression is he is a liberal Democrat. I don't know, but I
imagine he probably liked the ADA, groups of that kind.
Mr. Cohn. Now, do you know whether or not he believed in
our form of government?
Mr. Katz. I would believe that he did.
Mr. Cohn. You believe but you don't have any way of
knowing. Have you ever seen a pamphlet entitled ``Brass Hat and
the Atom''?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you called as a witness in the Bernstein
loyalty board proceeding?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ask you for an affidavit?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work in the same section as Bernstein?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know William Saltzman?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. William Johnston Jones?
Mr. Katz. Jones I believe was a member of the American
Veterans Committee.
Mr. Cohn. How did he vote on the issue of barring
Communists?
Mr. Katz. I don't recall.
Mr. Schine. You stated that only two of the two hundred
members were known to be Communist and you can't remember their
names?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. Could you find out their names?
Mr. Katz. I have had no connection with the group or with
anyone in the group in years.
Mr. Schine. When were you in the group?
Mr. Katz. 1946.
Mr. Schine. Nobody you knew in 1946 might be familiar with
these names?
Mr. Katz. Well, I suppose Bernstein would know them.
Mr. Schine. What were the names of the other individuals
who belonged to the Great Books Club?
Mr. Katz. I don't remember--Mrs. Banister who was a nurse.
I don't remember too many. I don't remember the names of the
members. It has been quite a while ago.
Mr. Schine. You went to a number of these meetings, didn't
you? Is there any way you could find out?
Mr. Katz. I remember another name. There was Maurice
Distell.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Katz. Maurice Distell. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Was he employed by the government?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Schine. What job?
Mr. Katz. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. You don't know in what capacity?
Mr. Katz. I believe he is at Camp Evans with the Applied
Physics Branch.
Mr. Schine. Do you know him well?
Mr. Katz. Casually.
Mr. Schine. Are you still a member of the Great Books Club?
Mr. Katz. I don't think it is still functioning. I don't
think it has been functioning for years.
Mr. Schine. Was he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Katz. I don't know any members of the Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know a Communist?
Mr. Katz. Other than the two people in the American
Veterans Committee. I didn't know them. I know we had two
members who admitted they were. Maybe more, I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of these individuals express sympathy for
the Communist form of government?
Mr. Katz. The individuals mentioned? No.
Mr. Cohn. Could you think of any names of Communist at all?
Mr. Katz. I don't think I know any Communists.
Mr. Schine. Do any other members of your family work for
the government?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. Have they worked for the government?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. Has any member of your family belonged to any
subversive organizations?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You still have access to classified material?
Mr. Katz. Yes. In other words, as I said, my duties have
rarely involved contact with classified material.
Mr. Cohn. Is Barry Bernstein a close friend of yours?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last talk to him?
Mr. Katz. It happens by coincidence that I saw him a few
days ago. I was up there in connection with some work and I ran
into him quite by accident.
Mr. Cohn. What was the nature of your conversation?
Mr. Katz. Very general. I don't recall that we discussed--
--
Mr. Cohn. What did he say he is doing now?
Mr. Katz. He didn't say anything about what he is doing. We
didn't discuss his work.
Mr. Cohn. Did he talk about these hearings?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. What do you think of the American Legion?
Mr. Katz. I don't think much of the American Legion. From a
political standpoint it is possibly a little right of the way I
would think. I think it is a little bit on the conservative
side.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been out of this country?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You have never traveled away from the United
States?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. What do you think of the Literary Digest?
Mr. Katz. I am not familiar with the Literary Digest.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much, Mr. Katz. If we need you
we will get in touch with you. We appreciate your coming down.
STATEMENT OF HENRY JASIK
Mr. Schine. Would you give your name for the record?
Mr. Jasik. Henry Jasik.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed?
Mr. Jasik. I am self-employed, private consultant.
Mr. Schine. What do you do as a consultant?
Mr. Jasik. Study work, development work in the electronics
field.
Mr. Schine. Have you had any connection with the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, sir. I have worked for it and I have been a
member of the navy. I worked for the Civil Aeronautics
Administration and spent a year with the Bureau of Ordnance.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever with the Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever done any consultant work for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Indirectly as a subcontractor.
Mr. Schine. What is the name of your firm?
Mr. Jasik. Henry Jasik Consulting Engineer.
Mr. Schine. What is your wife's name?
Mr. Jasik. Esther A. Her maiden name was Gershon.
Mr. Schine. Is she a sister of Simon Gershon?
Mr. Jasik. I believe his name is spelled without the ``H.''
Mr. Schine. She is a sister?
Mr. Jasik. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been married?
Mr. Jasik. Since 1941. Over twelve years.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you saw your brother-in-
law?
Mr. Jasik. Sometime back in 1950 at a family reception.
That is my wife's family.
Mr. Schine. Are any other of your in-laws members of the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. I have no knowledge of such. Now, they may very
well be. I know definitely Sy is, having read about it in the
newspapers.
Mr. Schine. Is your wife in contact with him more than you
are?
Mr. Jasik. She possibly visits there once every six months
or so, very infrequent intervals. She takes the children there
to visit with their children. The last time she went there he
wasn't around.
Mr. Schine. Did she ever discuss his Communist party
activities with you?
Mr. Jasik. Well, obviously I can read the papers.
Mr. Schine. Would you like to tell us whatever you can that
would help in the problem of subversion and espionage?
Mr. Jasik. Well, she told me, I remember, back in the early
forties that he had been stationed at Albany as a political
correspondent for the Communist newspaper and after the war my
recollection is that he ran for office. I am not sure what
office it was, some public office in the City of New York, and
she has spoken of his current activities.
Mr. Schine. Where is he now?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Is he still in Albany?
Mr. Jasik. I have not had contact with that part of the
family actually prior to 1940. In my total married life I might
have seen him a half dozen times. I don't agree with his
political philosophy although he seems to have a nice
personality. I am afraid that is about as far as it goes.
Mr. Cohn. A Communist can be very charming.
Mr. Jasik. I know very few.
Mr. Schine. Is your wife in disagreement with her brother?
I am referring to his Communist party views. Is your wife in
agreement with his Communist party activities and views?
Mr. Jasik. Well, if she is in agreement she never tried to
convince me of it.
Mr. Schine. Has she ever denied that she was in agreement
with him?
Mr. Jasik. Has she ever denied that she was in agreement?
Mr. Schine. I will rephrase the question. Has she ever said
she isn't in agreement with him?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't remember.
Mr. Cohn. Now look. Here is a man whose wife is the sister
of one of the top Communists in the country. A man who has been
the subject of public controversy for the past fifteen years,
as you know very well; was one of the second string Communist
leaders recently indicted and tried here in federal court and
it is inconceivable, unreasonable, that there wouldn't be
frequent discussions between Mr. and Mrs. Jasik on the question
of whether or not they were in agreement or disagreement with
him. He was one of the top leaders in the Communist party. We
certainly don't want any views of hers except so far as it goes
into other things we want to cover later. You would have to go
a long way to convince me that this hasn't been a source of
frequent discussions, Mr. Jasik.
Mr. Jasik. We seldom discuss politics at home. I will be
very frank.
Mr. Cohn. The question was: Has your wife been in
disagreement with her brother's Communist activities or views?
Mr. Jasik. From my discussions with her, I don't think she
is in agreement with his views.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever indicated outright that she is in
disagreement?
Mr. Jasik. Not directly.
Mr. Cohn. She knows he is a top Communist?
Mr. Jasik. I think that is obvious from reading the
newspapers.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Jasik, you have done some work for a
consulting firm, subcontractor for the government?
Mr. Jasik. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Would you tell us what work you have done for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Indirectly?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Jasik. I don't know whether some of it is of a
classified nature. I can give it to you generally. I have done
one bit of consulting work for Dorne and Margolin.
Mr. Cohn. What were they doing?
Mr. Jasik. They are a much larger firm of engineers also
doing antenna work located at Westbury.
Mr. Cohn. What branch of the government?
Mr. Jasik. Bureau of Aeronautics.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, your firm, Henry Jasik Consulting
Firm has acted as subcontractor for a larger firm who has done
work for the Aeronautics Bureau?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. I have also done other work for the
government.
Mr. Cohn. Will you name the various branch of the
government for which you have done work?
Mr. Jasik. Bureau of Aeronautics; navy; I have done work
recently for the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. Will you tell us about that work?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. This was done as a sub-contract for the
Smith Company and they came to me back last June or July. No, I
guess it was May or June and they stated they had been directed
to obtain a consultant to carry out the development and
production contract. They had been referred to me, I think, by
the organization by which I was formerly employed, and I wasn't
quite so sure as to whether I could take it on and do any good.
They pressed me on it and as a result we went down to, I
believe, the Watson area of the Signal Corps to discuss my
qualifications with the Signal Corps.
Now, after we got the contract, they turned over a
development portion of the job--apparently the work which had
been carried out by the Signal Corps was incomplete before it
was let out for production.
Mr. Cohn. What was the nature of the work you did for the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. What do you mean by nature?
Mr. Cohn. Was it classified?
Mr. Jasik. Restricted, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did they take any steps to clear you for access
to restricted material?
Mr. Jasik. Well, the initial clearance which they checked
was with the Bureau of Aeronautics in Bethpage, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Did the Bureau of Aeronautics take any steps to
clear you for classified material?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, yes. When I first left Airborne Instruments
Laboratory in 1952 I got in touch with the Bureau of
Aeronautics and asked them if I could set up as a facility. I,
at that time, signed a security agreement.
Mr. Cohn. I'd like to rephrase the question. We haven't got
too much time. Were you ever investigated?
Mr. Jasik. Many times.
Mr. Cohn. By whom?
Mr. Jasik. By the FBI among others.
Mr. Cohn. Did you receive security clearance from the
Bureau of Aeronautics?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. Secret at the time I left Airborne
Instruments. I have been told up in Boston I had top secret
clearance.
Mr. Cohn. After being investigated by the FBI?
Mr. Jasik. After being investigated by the FBI? No, Well, I
maintain--Let me see. Well, what do you mean being investigated
by the FBI? I assume to get initial clearance in 1946, or for
that matter 1944 when I went on active duty as an officer of
the navy that at that time I was cleared.
Mr. Cohn. Now, are you currently doing work for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Jasik. I am. Well, I was until my clearance was stopped
as of last week.
Mr. Cohn. Did they tell you why your clearance was stopped?
Mr. Jasik. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Did you receive a suspension on your security
clearance or was it taken away?
Mr. Jasik. By the Bethpage representative in New York.
Mr. Schine. Did this automatically lift your clearance or
suspend your clearance for the work you are doing for the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I am not quite sure. I got the thing
recently enough that I have not had a legal interpretation. For
one thing it is a contractual agreement and the question is: Do
I stop immediately doing work I already know about.
Mr. Schine. What other government agencies are you doing
work for at this time besides the Signal Corps and the Bureau
of Aeronautics?
Mr. Jasik. I am no longer doing work for the Bureau of
Aeronautics.
Mr. Schine. What other agencies?
Mr. Jasik. I had been doing work for the Bureau of Ships,
Navy Department.
Mr. Schine. Are you still doing that?
Mr. Jasik. I advised these people just as soon as I got
notice, ``Here is the state of affairs. What would you like me
to do?''
Mr. Schine. Did you notify the Signal Corps too?
Mr. Jasik. Not as yet.
Mr. Schine. What other government outfits are you doing
work for?
Mr. Jasik. These are the only two organizations.
Mr. Schine. The Bureau of Ships and the Signal Corps.
Mr. Jasik. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Jasik, has your wife ever been a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. If she has, it was certainly prior to the time I
married her. When I have asked her she has not given me a
direct answer.
Mr. Schine. She never denied that she was a member?
Mr. Jasik. She put it in such an ambiguous way that I am
not certain.
Mr. Schine. Did she ever tell you that she left the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. Well, the way I gather is that she attended a
number of meetings. That was prior to my having met her.
Mr. Schine. Did she tell you anything about these meetings?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. In other words, your wife told you she attended
Communist party meetings but she didn't tell you anything about
them?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Nor who was there?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. And she never told you she left the Communist
party?
Mr. Jasik. In trying to elicit a more direct response from
her, her contention is that she merely attended these meetings
and that ``What constitutes membership''?
Mr. Schine. Did she attend meetings with her brother?
Mr. Jasik. This I don't know. That was before I met her.
Mr. Schine. In the past ten years?
Mr. Jasik. Not in the past ten years. We have been married
since 1941, twelve years ago. At the time we got married I
worked for CAA, unclassified, on Air Navigational Aid and we
moved to Indianapolis. We moved back and forth so much had she
engaged in outside activities I would have known about it. As a
matter of fact, I would have been very definitely against it.
Mr. Schine. What is your personal feeling about the
situation? Do you think your wife is still a Communist party
member?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think she is.
Mr. Cohn. Is she still in sympathy with Communists?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think she is.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been in sympathy with communism?
Mr. Jasik. I have looked into what they have to say but I
have never agreed with them since my upbringing and philosophy
of life is completely at variance.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever tell anybody that you believed in
the results which the Communists sought to achieve but you
didn't like the way in which they were going about it?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think I ever have.
Mr. Schine. Are you sure that you never did?
Mr. Jasik. Well, would you be more specific as to what
results they are trying to achieve.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever expressed sympathy for Communist
objectives?
Mr. Jasik. Specify objectives.
Mr. Schine. I will rephrase the question. Have you ever
professed a sympathy toward what you believe to be Communist
objectives?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I am not quite certain what the
Communist objectives are since they have changed so many times
and I have more or less lost interest as a subject as early as
1940.
Mr. Schine. When you were interested in the Communist
philosophy isn't it true that you felt that there were virtues
to some of the Communist objectives and so stated?
Mr. Jasik. Well, let me state it this way. Insofar as the
Communist objectives are in common with those of the democracy
of the United States, I am afraid I have to be in agreement
with them. You must remember that in a good many cases they
claim to be for liberty, for democracy, and for all the things
that our philosophy of the United States, the United States
philosophy, so that I don't want to be picayune but I want to
get your phrasing a little clearer. If you are asking me if I
believe in the overthrow of this government violently, I do not
believe that.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever at one time openly say that you were
sympathetic with--what amounts to sympathy towards the
Communist objectives? I exclude force and violence. Was there
ever a period in your life when you were sympathetic towards
communism?
Mr. Jasik. That is a hard question to answer. Sympathetic
in the sense that we were both fighting to defeat the Germans
during the last war, yes. Very definitely.
Mr. Cohn. Let's go back to the time when you were with the
Bureau of Ordnance. Were you in sympathy with communism then?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in sympathy before that?
Mr. Jasik. No. As a matter of fact, I never heard of it
until I came down to Washington on a Civil Service job. I had
been brought up in a small town in New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever work with a man named Benjamin
Zuckerman?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Would you say he was sympathetic towards
communism?
Mr. Jasik. Judging from some of the arguments he had with
some of the other people, I would say he was not.
Mr. Cohn. With whom did he have arguments?
Mr. Jasik. With some of the various members of the group
there, one of whom you of course know, Morton Sobell.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, sir. I did.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you know Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, not as well as I knew Zuckerman. I met him
on a number of occasions and I lost contact with him in 1942 or
1943, something of that sort, possibly even earlier and I did
not see him again until 1949.
Mr. Cohn. Who are some of the other individuals you put in
Sobell's class?
Mr. Jasik. I don't know what you mean class.
Mr. Cohn. The group that lived together. Who were they? Max
Elitcher? Do you know Mr. Elitcher?
Mr. Jasik. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember him as sympathetic towards
communism?
Mr. Jasik. He spoke so very little it was hard to tell, but
I would gather from his close association with Sobell he
probably was.
Mr. Cohn. Zuckerman had a closer association with Sobell,
did he not?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, but he voiced his opposition openly.
Mr. Cohn. Did Zuckerman disagree with the substance or
form?
Mr. Jasik. I am afraid I am not a lawyer.
Mr. Cohn. I will phrase it in a little plainer language.
Did he object to the whole idea of communism or certain
methods, the way in which they are trying to do things?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think you can divorce them.
Mr. Schine. Would you continue to give us the names of the
individuals who lived with Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. Stanley Rich, who, as I recall, was violently in
disagreement with Sobell personally as well as politically.
Mr. Cohn. How about Mr. Danziger? William Danziger?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, Bill. There may have been some others. Mr.
Rich's wife lived there, I believe. Sobell's wife.
Mr. Schine. Were you ever present when they held Communist
meetings?
Mr. Jasik. I was not aware they held Communist meetings at
that house.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present at any dinners?
Mr. Jasik. I was present at one or two dinners.
Mr. Cohn. Who else were at those dinners? Were there any
other Communists present besides Rich, Sobell, Danziger,
Elitcher and yourself?
Mr. Jasik. Please do not put me in the same category. I
attended several times at their invitation.
Mr. Cohn. Did anybody else attend?
Mr. Jasik. Mrs. Danziger. I think she was there also. Now,
there are some other people that I frankly can't remember. This
goes back fourteen or fifteen years.
Mr. Cohn. Who first tried to get you interested in the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. I would say probably Mr. Sobell.
Mr. Schine. When did he first make overtures to you?
Mr. Jasik. Possibly as a result of having met me at the
Bureau of Ordnance.
Mr. Schine. When did he first make overtures to you?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, it was probably in 1938 or 1949.
Mr. Schine. Did you know you were being sized up?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I was nineteen years old at the time
and a little naive. They handed me a number of pamphlets and
propaganda. I generally argued with them about it and I think
that was as far as it went.
Mr. Schine. Who besides Sobell handed you this material and
made overtures to you?
Mr. Jasik. I would say Danziger made some mild attempts at
it. Actually, he didn't get very far. I might tell you the
attitude they had towards me. I had a strictly bourgeois
outlook on life, as phrased by Mr. Sobell, and while I did go
so far as to read what they had to say, I certainly didn't
subscribe to it. I might say that I find nothing wrong in that.
Anyone with any amount of intellectual curiosity would want to
decide for himself.
Mr. Schine. When did you first meet your wife?
Mr. Jasik. It was sometime in 1940, I believe
Mr. Schine. Did her brother know this same group of people?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Did your wife?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, I think so. I am trying to remember. I
believe she may have gone to school with Mrs. Danziger.
Mr. Schine. What was the name of the school?
Mr. Jasik. Hunter College.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Mrs. Danziger was a member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. No, in the sense I never did see any direct
evidence. It might have possibly been true judging from her
reaction towards some of the issues in the news.
Mr. Schine. Now, wouldn't you say your wife was more or
less in agreement with Mrs. Danziger on these issues?
Mr. Jasik. Well, the general attitude of my wife was, she
was out to have a good time and enjoy life and such politics as
she might have been interested in were forced on her by her
associations and her family.
Mr. Schine. Did she tell you Mrs. Danziger was a member of
the Communist party? By her family, you mean her brother?
Mr. Jasik. Her brother, perhaps, possibly her mother,
although I guess more directly she was influenced by her
brother.
Mr. Schine. Was her mother a member of the party?
Mr. Jasik. I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Schine. Do you think she might be?
Mr. Jasik. I suspect she was probably more in sympathy with
some of the objectives but she is well along in years. She is
about seventy-five or eighty now.
Mr. Schine. When did you last see your mother-in-law?
Mr. Jasik. Some several months ago.
Mr. Schine. Was she born in the United States?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Where was she born?
Mr. Jasik. Poland.
Mr. Schine. When did she come to this country?
Mr. Jasik. That I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Was your wife born in the United States?
Mr. Jasik. So far as I know, yes.
Mr. Schine. Now, getting back to this association of yours
with Sobell and that group, can you give us any more names
before you go on--individuals in that group?
Mr. Jasik. I am trying to refresh my memory. I went through
all this some months ago for the Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. Schine. Which bureau?
Mr. Jasik. The Federal Bureau of Investigation. At which
time I spent close to eight hours with them. There may be other
names but frankly it would take a little more time. Actually,
they were able to refresh my memory by furnishing direct leads.
Mr. Schine. Did it ever occur to you you may have been used
by the Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. How would I have been used?
Mr. Schine. I am asking you a question. Did it ever occur
to you that you may have been used by the Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. I have never given them any information. I have
never given them any money.
Mr. Schine. Can't you think of any way they might have used
you or your company?
Mr. Jasik. Well, in the little over a year that I have been
trying to get started in business, I don't think I have had any
contact with anyone that I know or might suspect of being a
member of the Communist party.
Mr. Schine. What about prior to your starting your own
company? Did it ever occur to you they might have used you?
Mr. Jasik. Well, yes. This was something that happened to
me in 1949 or 1950 and here again I have given the actual story
on this to the FBI. I bumped into Sobell quite accidently in
one of the shopping markets where I live in Flushing.
Mr. Schine. That was in 1949?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, it was in 1949. I returned to the New York
area in 1949.
Mr. Schine. Approximately when in 1949?
Mr. Jasik. Here again--it would be sometime around the
middle if I am not mistaken. At that time he told me that he
was working at Reeves Instrument Company and I must say that
his personality had changed somewhat from the time I knew him
in Washington. When I knew him in Washington he was very much
of a bore and he had improved somewhat. Now, I didn't know
whether it was due to being married or what but he also did not
express the same political views or at least if he had
political views, he didn't express them to me at that time. At
one time he met my wife in the Food Fair and took her bundle
home.
Well, this was some reason for being polite to him and I
saw him a total of possibly two or three times over a period of
a year. At one time he told me he was unhappy in his job at
Reeves and wanted to know if I could get him on at Airborne
Instruments Laboratory. Well, he, as I say, his personality
left much to be desired. I let a little time elapse and told
him they were not taking on people at the time and it dropped
at that point. If he were trying to use me in order to get in
on that end, this may have been a possibility. As it happened I
did not recommend him and it went no further.
Mr. Schine. Did you live with Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. In the same area?
Mr. Jasik. I lived several miles from him in Washington. I
can't remember what the house number was. It was somewheres, I
think, in the end of the second alphabet or something in that
general area of Washington.
Mr. Schine. You knew he was a Communist in 1949?
Mr. Jasik. In 1949, no. I thought perhaps he might have
changed.
Mr. Schine. You thought he had left the party by 1949?
Mr. Jasik. As I say, when I bumped into him his actions did
not indicate that he had any sympathy towards communism.
Mr. Schine. So when you say his personality had changed----
Mr. Jasik. He treated me no differently than I am sure he
treated all the people he worked with.
Mr. Schine. You knew he had been a Communist prior to that?
Mr. Jasik. This, again, I am not sure of. I knew his views
were sympathetic.
Mr. Schine. Now, if he asked you to get him a job for the
government----
Mr. Jasik. It probably would have been a factor.
Mr. Schine. If he had asked you to get him a job in the
government and you knew he had been a Communist----
Mr. Jasik. This was not a job with the government. It was a
private laboratory.
Mr. Schine. Was it doing work for the government?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. He told me he was already doing work for
the government at Reeves. Assuming their clearance procedures
were thorough, the only conclusion I could draw was that he was
not a Communist, otherwise he would not have been working for
them.
Mr. Schine. What does your wife do?
Mr. Jasik. She takes care of our two children Stephen, ten
and Harriet, seven. At least they will be in two months. She
takes care of our house.
Because of her past associations, I have never allowed her
to do anything in connection with my business. As a matter of
fact, while we have a joint personal checking account, I am the
only one who can sign signatures on the business account.
Mr. Schine. In other words, you feel that because of her
associations with Communists, you wouldn't want her to be
involved in your business in any way?
Mr. Jasik. Because of what remote association there may
have been. Because of what association there may have been, I
certainly would not clear her to work in my organization. Even
though there are times I could have used somebody to answer
telephones or do typing.
Mr. Schine. Who else works for you?
Mr. Jasik. One young man and Mr. Milton Brenner.
Mr. Schine. What about him?
Mr. Jasik. He worked for the Airborne Instruments
Laboratory from 1951 to 1952 and at the time I left to set up
my own business he left to finish up his master's degree at the
New York University. When he got through I offered him a
position.
Mr. Schine. Was he connected with this group in any way?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Has he ever been a member of any subversive
organization?
Mr. Jasik. So far as I know, no.
Mr. Schine. Have you?
Mr. Jasik. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever join any organizations listed as
subversive by the attorney general?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think the Institute of Radio Engineering
is listed as subversive and the only organizations are
professional organizations or in one case an honorary society.
Mr. Schine. You never joined any front organizations?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Let the record show that the witness appeared
voluntarily.
Mr. Jasik. I am at your disposal as long as you need me,
any time you wish.
Mr. Schine. There is one other question I would like to ask
you. Can you give us the names of any people who have expressed
a sympathy for communism who are currently working for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. No, sir. I frankly can't. Actually, I can't
imagine of anybody who wanted to keep their job making such an
expression.
Mr. Schine. Let's put it this way. Taking this whole crowd
around Sobell, do any of them currently work for the
government? Directly or subcontractors, either way?
Mr. Jasik. Well, I believe Mr. Rich does.
Mr. Schine. You said he was against communism.
Mr. Jasik. He expressed very strong opinions against it.
Mr. Schine. For the record, what does he do for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't know. All he mentioned was that
he had done some work for them off and on.
Mr. Schine. What about some of the other individuals in
this group?
Mr. Jasik. So far as I know, Mr. Zuckerman is not working
with the government and as far as some of the other people are
concerned, I have had no contact with them with the one
exception of Sobell who I bumped into in 1949 and 1950.
Mr. Schine. Have you heard or did you hear that any of
these other individuals were employed by the government?
Mr. Jasik. No. Zuckerman was at one time.
Mr. Schine. Zuckerman and Sobell. Anybody else?
Mr. Jasik. As I say, Rich was or had been doing some work
for them.
Mr. Schine. How about friends of your wife that you know
were sympathetic towards communism. Have you heard that any of
them are working for the government or have worked for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. I don't know of any friends of my wife--any
friends she had before we were married and in the last several
years, I believe, the main friends are those who are local
neighbors. So far as I know, none of them are working for the
government.
Mr. Schine. What part of the Signal Corps does your firm
sub-contract for?
Mr. Jasik. I sub-contracted work from the Smith Company who
in turn is working for the Countermeasures Branch of the Signal
Corps.
Mr. Schine. Is that at Evans Laboratory?
Mr. Jasik. I am not quite familiar with the organization it
is. I think it is three or four different laboratories.
Mr. Schine. And the Smith Company's full name is what?
Mr. Jasik. James H. Smith Manufacturing Company.
Mr. Schine. Is that classified work?
Mr. Jasik. Restricted, yes, although I was told some of the
individual antennas are unclassified and I am quite sure I am
not sure whether the overall job is classified or some of the
components in addition.
Mr. Schine. The Smith Company asked you to do some of this
work. Do you have to pass any kind of security clearance?
Mr. Jasik. Well, at the time I got into serious discussion
of the technical problem. I referred them to the Bethpage and I
believe they checked on that.
Mr. Schine. The Smith Company checked?
Mr. Jasik. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Who did you deal with in the Smith Company?
Mr. Jasik. Billet. Dan Billet.
Mr. Schine. Did he work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Has he worked for the government in the past?
Mr. Jasik. Aside from the contract work, I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. What is his function at the Smith Company?
Mr. Jasik. Project engineer on this project if I am not
mistaken.
Mr. Schine. You did not report directly to the two Smith
brothers who owned the corporation?
Mr. Jasik. As a matter of fact, I have had dealings with
them too. It is not a large company.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any relatives who are working for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. What do you mean by relatives?
Mr. Cohn. Cousins? First cousins?
Mr. Jasik. Let's see. The only one, I have a brother who is
doing work for an organization who in turn----
Mr. Cohn. Is that Stan?
Mr. Jasik. Charles. He is working on Olympic Radio and
Television, I believe, and doing some work for the government.
I am not too familiar with what he is doing.
Mr. Cohn. Was your brother sympathetic towards communism?
Mr. Jasik. If he was he never expressed such a sympathy
towards me.
Mr. Cohn. Was he anti-Communist or was it just something
you don't recall having come up?
Mr. Jasik. It has never come up. I know he is sympathetic
towards unions.
Mr. Cohn. Well----
Mr. Jasik. I am not. First of all, I am trying to start a
business and I am not sympathetic towards unions.
Mr. Cohn. That is absolutely no reflection. In recent trial
the Daily Worker was unsympathetic toward a union trying to
increase the wages for people working there.
Mr. Cohn. Where does your brother live, Mr. Jasik?
Mr. Jasik. Great Neck.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know his exact address?
Mr. Jasik. Overlook Road. I am not quite sure of the
number. It is on the border between Great Neck and Little Neck.
Mr. Cohn. And you last saw Mr. Gershon in 1950, is that
right?
Mr. Jasik. Around then. To my remembrance that is right.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever discussed your work?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, no.
Mr. Cohn. Does he know where you work?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Cohn. The kind of work you do?
Mr. Jasik. No. He has never expressed any interest.
Mr. Carr. Does your wife have any relatives presently
employed by the government or very recently employed by the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Gee, I am trying to remember who some of her
relatives are. I have had very little contact with her side of
the family. If she does have any in the first cousin group, I
don't know of them.
Mr. Carr. Do you know whether Simon Gershon has any
relatives or in-laws presently employed by the government?
Mr. Jasik. That would come in the same category. As I say,
I have not had any recent contact with Gershon.
For the record I might state that in all my life I have met
him at the most a half dozen times and these have been mainly
on social occasions. Just a matter of one family visiting
another, so that my association with him has been not what you
call close by any means. I am not in sympathy with his views or
ways of achieving them. I certainly don't have any knowledge of
what his part of the family is up to, that is, beyond what I
read in the newspapers.
Mr. Carr. You have no knowledge of his relatives working
for the government?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't know who all his relatives are
aside from his wife and his mother, and my wife, who is his
sister.
Mr. Carr. Do you have any knowledge of his wife's
relatives?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Thanks very much for appearing here today. If
we need to get in touch with you, we will do so. You are
excused, at least for the moment.
Mr. Jasik. I trust you are satisfied with what evidence I
have been able to tell.
Mr. Schine. We don't evaluate testimony.
Mr. Jasik. Anytime you would like further testimony, I will
be glad to appear.
STATEMENT OF CAPTAIN BENJAMIN SHEEHAN
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name for the record?
Capt. Sheehan. Benjamin Sheehan.
Mr. Schine. Where do you live?
Capt. Sheehan. 946 Cherry Lane, Franklin Square, New York.
Mr. Schine. What is the general nature of your duties at
the present time?
Capt. Sheehan. My duties are classified.
Mr. Cohn. What is your assignment?
Capt. Sheehan. I am in the army.
Mr. Cohn. You are with CIC, aren't you? We are awfully good
security risks.
Could we get your name?
Colonel Segolis. Colonel Segolis. I am with the 108th CIC
and again, that is classified.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Capt. Sheehan, the reason we asked you to
come in here as a witness to testify before this committee is
that you did supervise an investigation of certain activities
at Fort Monmouth, particularly relating to certain documents
which were missing and subversive connections of certain
persons there. Are you that Captain Sheehan?
You can consult with counsel anytime you want too.
Capt. Sheehan. The only thing I can say is I am governed by
Army Regulations 380-5 and 380-10.
Mr. Cohn. Who is your commanding officer?
Capt. Sheehan. Colonel Huckins.
Mr. Cohn. He is G-2?
Capt. Sheehan. Again it is classified.
Mr. Cohn. He is commanding officer of the detachment?
Capt. Sheehan. Commanding officer of the 108th CIC
Detachment.
Mr. Cohn. Who is your superior at Governor's Island?
Capt. Sheehan. Colonel Johnson.
Mr. Cohn. Did you talk to Colonel Johnson before you came
over here today?
Capt. Sheehan. I did not.
Mr. Carr. Did you answer the question of whether or not you
conducted an investigation----
Capt. Sheehan. I am governed by Army Regulation 380-25.
Mr. Carr. In other words, you feel you are not able to tell
us whether or not you conducted such an investigation.
Mr. Cohn. What is your name?
Col. Thomas. Colonel Ronnie F. Thomas, chief, Counter-
Intelligence Division, G-2, Section, First Army.
Mr. Cohn. Do I assume that if I asked you the same type of
question, your answer will be the same?
Col. Thomas. If you ask me information which is classified,
I am not at liberty to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this. What exactly are you in a
position to tell the Senate committee? What type of information
is not covered by any directive?
Capt. Sheehan. Anything not classified information.
Mr. Cohn. How about matters pertaining to personnel files?
Capt. Sheehan. Are you speaking about intelligence files?
That is the only kind we have. Any information which does not
come under directives. 95 percent of the information in our
office is classified at least confidential.
Mr. Cohn. What is the 5 percent?
Capt. Sheehan. Matters pertaining to industrial security
program which is largely not classified.
Mr. Cohn. What is the industrial security program?
Capt. Sheehan. That is clearance of defense contractors and
contractor's employees.
Mr. Cohn. You say that is not classified?
Capt. Sheehan. No. All except the intelligence facts.
Mr. Cohn. How large is your district?
Capt. Sheehan. All of the First Army area.
Mr. Cohn. That is what?
Capt. Sheehan. New York, New Jersey and all of New England.
Mr. Cohn. Does that include the General Electric plant at
Schenectady?
Capt. Sheehan. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What can you tell us about security there?
Capt. Sheehan. The General Electric plant is a defense
contract, but under security cognizance of one of the other
services.
Mr. Cohn. Not army?
Capt. Sheehan. The army may have some contracts that comes
under technical service they are administering. The agency has
security cognizance with one of the other services.
Mr. Cohn. Is that navy?
Capt. Sheehan. I am not sure. I think it is navy.
Mr. Cohn. You have no concern with the security up there?
Capt. Sheehan. Yes, we do.
Mr. Cohn. To what extent?
Capt. Sheehan. The commanding general, First Army, is
responsible for security in every agency throughout the entire
First Army area.
Mr. Cohn. Specifically, how does that apply to the General
Electric plant at Schenectady?
Capt. Sheehan. If a violation of security was known or
reported, we would be required to take necessary action to see
that the deficiency was corrected.
Mr. Cohn. How would that be reported to you?
Capt. Sheehan. Various ways. It might be reported as an
incident by one of the reporting agencies or it should be
reported directly by the security officer of the General
Electric plant at Schenectady.
Mr. Cohn. Would you take direct action yourself? Would you
make a report to the security officer?
Capt. Sheehan. We would report it to G-2, Department of the
Army, and they would take it up through channels, Colonel
Johnson.
Mr. Cohn. Who is the security officer at the General
Electric plant in Schenectady? Do you know him?
Capt. Sheehan. I am not sure. I have never met him.
Mr. Cohn. What other installations are under this system?
Capt. Sheehan. Every civilian concern that has a classified
contract.
Mr. Cohn. Which are the most important ones at the present
time; I mean to army?
Capt. Sheehan. Well, I am not in the contracting end of the
business. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. I meant from the standpoint of sensitivity?
Capt. Sheehan. I couldn't answer without revealing
classified information. The minute you ask me specific
questions----
Mr. Cohn. Frankly, I think this entire interpretation is
carrying it much too far.
Capt. Sheehan. We are bound by the orders. If the secretary
of the army gives us written permission.
Mr. Cohn. Colonel Johnson has seen the secretary of the
army. I was present when he was present and he should know what
the secretary's position is on this thing. This entire
interpretation was stated two months ago when we had Colonel
Howie. I thought there had been a great deal of liberalization,
but apparently there hasn't.
Capt. Sheehan. I have not seen anything in writing changing
the existing regulations.
STATEMENT OF RUSSELL GAYLORD RANNEY
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name for the record,
please?
Mr. Ranney. Russell Gaylord Ranney.
Mr. Schine. Where are you employed?
Mr. Ranney. I work for Headquarters, SCEL, Signal Corps
Engineering Laboratory, Fort Monmouth, New Jersey.
Mr. Schine. How was it you said it?
Mr. Ranney. Headquarters SCEL. I should have said Signal
Corps Engineering Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Ranney. For the laboratory? Since August 1950.
Mr. Schine. Where did you work before that?
Mr. Ranney. Before that I worked for the Fort Monmouth
Signal School a little over a year. I have been at Fort
Monmouth since June 1949. Before that I was supervising
principal of rural schools in that area, Shrewsburg Township
Schools.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Ranney. Well, I am the chief of a small section called
inspection instructions and the primary responsibility of that
section is to further in service training, primarily to
civilians and engineers and other civilians employed. We have
put on courses intended to improve the reading skill of the
civilians, although we have some engineering officers who
attend, but primarily civilians, to improve their
comprehension. We ran a series of programs for stock record
clerks to improve their ability to recognize stock record
numbers. Now, we are carrying on a series of programs intended
to train them to write simply and clearly and logically.
Mr. Schine. Do you handle classified work?
Mr. Ranney. No. No classified material at all.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever handled classified material?
Mr. Ranney. No, I haven't.
Mr. Schine. Where did you get your college training?
Mr. Ranney. New York University. I also served on the staff
there doing this work as associate director, New York
University Reading Institute.
Mr. Schine. Would you sum up the functions of this section?
Mr. Ranney. Well, the function of this section is intended
to make the civilian employees more efficient because in
reading and writing, correspondence reports and memoranda,
etc., all sorts of material they have to read they have
occasion to read--those essential elements of the job engineers
and other people have, and basically it is supposed to save
them time. They maintain we have.
Mr. Schine. You use a number of texts in conjunction with
this instruction program?
Mr. Ranney. No, not in the reading course. In the reading
course we prepare our own material. I want to have the work
directed solely toward their problems. I have been able to get
permission to reproduce articles from Fortune, articles on
management, etc. As far as the writing course is concerned,
yes. Each student has a standard text. It is Taft, McDermott
and Jensen and you know I can't remember the exact title. It is
an English grammar book, a composition book. I can only think
of the author. Then we have a workbook by J. E. Norwood, I
think it is called English Composition Workbook.\5\ Those are
the only books used.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\5\ J. E. Norwood, Concerning Words; A Manual and Workbook (New
York: Prentice-Hall, 1938.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Schine. Have you ever used a pamphlet known as ``Brass
Hat and the Atom.''
Mr. Ranney. I am afraid not. Show it to me.
[The pamphlet ``Brass Hat and the Atom'' was handed to Mr.
Ranney.]
No.
Mr. Schine. You never saw that?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. You never used it as far as you know?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. You would know about it if it were used in your
section?
Mr. Ranney. Oh yes. I can't imagine that I wouldn't. I am
the only instructor, except for a period last spring I had
another instructor teaching reading training. I don't imagine
he would have introduced it.
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mr. Ranney. Dale Van Winkle. He resigned and is going to
law school at the University of Michigan Law School now. We
started writing training programs last spring and that is why I
had to turn over three of the reading courses to Mr. Van
Winkle. He had been with me for two years as a soldier and then
when his period was up, a civilian position was set up for him.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever belonged to a subversive
organization or front organization?
Mr. Ranney. I will mention all that I belong to and you can
tell me which ones they may be.
First Presbyterian Church, Red Bank. American Legion, Tent
Falls Chapter, Shrewsburg Township. Masons, Abacus Chapter in
Long Branch. I belonged to Phi Delta Kappa, which is an
honorary fraternity. I belong to the Fort Monmouth Officers
Club.
Mr. Schine. Does any member of your family work for the
government?
Mr. Ranney. Yes, my wife is in Squires Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What is her job?
Mr. Ranney. She is in the materials section of the C & M
Branch. She is a chemist. She works with plastics.
Mr. Schine. Has your wife ever been connected with any
subversive organizations?
Mr. Ranney. We have been married nineteen years and I know
pretty well what she has done in that time.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever known any Communist party
members?
Mr. Ranney. Not as far as I know. There could have been
when I was in college, someone in my class, but no one I ever
recall having mentioned such a thing. I took most of my
schooling at night and it was kind of a busy time.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Ranney. Never.
Mr. Schine. Were you ever approached by the Communist
party?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have any students in your
classroom whom you felt might be Communistically inclined?
Mr. Ranney. No, I wouldn't have had an opportunity to find
out. It is a pretty intensive two-hours session and all we
talked about was improving reading skills. It wasn't a course
which would lead to broad discussions. It wasn't that sort of
thing at all. Perhaps in a history class or something like that
you might have that sort of thing come out, but not in the work
I have been doing.
Mr. Schine. Does your class have in it as students, or also
army personnel?
Mr. Ranney. No, we have a few officers but not many at
present. We have always had a few.
Mr. Schine. When they enter your class, on what basis do
they become a student? Any specific reason?
Mr, Ranney. Yes. Yes, because the heads of their agencies
ask the commanding officer of the laboratory for a quota for
these separate agencies. Our function is to train only
laboratory personnel, but I know the deputy chief of the Signal
Corps asked for a quota. In Signal Corps supply that is also
true, in Electronics Warfare Center and a couple of others.
Would you like for me to describe the procedure?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Ranney. They ask for a quota and I try to make the
membership of the classes homogeneous so as to give benefit to
everybody. I am also requested to test fifteen or twenty people
if they plan to send three to five. I give them a preliminary
grammar test to see where they stand according to the plans of
that particular training program and according to the decision
of the commanding officer of the agencies, they send the
people, the best selection for their quota.
Mr. Schine. Have you been following the current
investigation of this committee?
Mr. Ranney. Of course, yes.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever had in your classroom any of the
individuals under investigation?
Mr. Ranney. No. I was interested, naturally enough, and I
went through my records. I think I have read so far three
names; Ducore, Coleman and Yamins, and I looked them up and I
noticed that two of them three years ago took the preliminary
reading test at Evans Laboratory. Ducore was one of those I
think. I don't know of the other two. After the first series of
reading courses, there was so much interest on the part of the
base chief that they requested we plan the course on a long
range training basis. With that in mind I thought it advisable
to give reading comprehensive tests to a lot of people. There
are fifteen hundred in the files and we have trained five
hundred already in reading. We tested two of these people at
Evans. I know Ducore was on the list. I don't know which of the
other ones.
Mr. Schine. What was the nature of the test?
Mr. Ranney. The test is the standard one that we give
everybody. It is a test put out by the American Council on
Education. It is a reading comprehensive test, college graduate
level. These two people were both in the middle group. That is
all the information I have.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been personally acquainted with
any of the individuals under investigation?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever discussed the investigation with
anybody at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Ranney. Well, let me see. I want to be honest about
this. I think I have probably heard people say, ``Are they
still suspending people?'' Something of that sort.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any of the individuals who have
been suspended?
Mr. Ranney. No, I am in sort of a bystander's situation
because of the fact although I give this service to all
laboratories, I have no connection with them otherwise--their
work or anything highly specialized. I don't have these
contacts with laboratory personnel that other people would
have.
Mr. Schine. What do you do besides working at the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Ranney. I do a little consulting work. I carried on at
the New York University night section for one year until that
was too much and gave that up. Now, I am in a situation which I
have to give a certain amount of evening time in a separate
building, Camp Wood, and the reading course is being given
after hours and since I give a certain amount of evening time I
am given one-half day compensatory time. I get off every
Wednesday afternoon at twelve o'clock. Right now every
Wednesday from three to five o'clock, I teach in Philadelphia a
group of editors of the Protestant Church owned presses, the
Westminister Presbyterian Group, Anglican Reform Group, all re
the reading training program. I leave there and in the evening
I go to the Philadelphia Office of IBM and teach there. That is
the only outside work I do.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever express sympathy for Communist
activities?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. The Communist form of government?
Mr. Ranney. No, never.
Mr. Schine. You never attended any meetings?
Mr. Ranney. Never.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Ranney, you say you never had any sympathy
toward Communist activities of the Communist party objectives
or toward Russia?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever profess any sympathy? Can you
think of any statements you have ever made?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Praising Russia?
Mr. Ranney. Never.
Mr. Schine. Is it true you have quite a bit of literature?
Mr. Ranney. No, it isn't true at all that I have Communist
literature. I don't have any Communist literature.
Mr. Schine. Did anybody ever say you had Communist
literature?
Mr. Ranney. In my hearing? Not in my hearing. Not that I
know of.
Mr. Schine. Let me ask you this? At your hearing, what were
the charges they made against you?
Mr. Ranney. Nobody ever made any charges against me.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have a hearing?
Mr. Ranney. I have never had any hearing at all.
Mr. Schine. Is your middle name Gaylord?
Mr. Ranney. Yes. G-a-y-l-o-r-d. It is a family name. My
father's mother was a Gaylord.
Mr. Schine. May I say, Mr. Ranney, I have quite a bit of
Communist literature myself and am reading it.
Mr. Ranney. Your work calls for it. Mine doesn't.
Mr. Schine. We appreciate your coming in and the fact that
you are here would not indicate we have any charges against you
or anything. We are in the middle of an investigation which
required a great deal of spade work. We have talked to a great
many individuals. Thank you for your cooperation and if we need
you again, we will call you.
STATEMENT OF SUSAN MOON
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name for the record?
Miss Moon. Susan Moon.
Mr. Schine. Where are you employed now?
Miss Moon. In Watson Area, Fort Monmouth at commercial
transportation.
Mr. Schine. How long have you worked there?
Miss Moon. Going on four years.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties?
Miss Moon. I am a transportation agent. I take care of
shipments from Evans, Squire and Cole into Watson.
Mr. Schine. Do you have access to classified material?
Miss Moon. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Are you a member of the Communist party?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You never have been a member?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You were never made any approaches?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Were you employed at the Soviet Purchasing
Commission in 1942 and 1943?
Miss Moon. Back there sometime. It was a long time ago.
Mr. Schine. Tell us about the circumstances of that
employment?
Miss Moon. I don't know how it happened. I was working for
the Treasury Department; then I went home; then I came back and
they were getting ready to start letting people off. I must
confess that at the time the segregation policy down there was
kind of messy and I hadn't been used to it. I decided to look
for another job. Somebody told me the Soviet Purchasing
Commission had a job handling American records and I went down
there and applied for the job and got it.
Mr. Schine. What were your duties?
Miss Moon. I was a typist. I did reports and stuff. We kept
the American records. At that time we were involved in the
lend-lease. That was when Russia and the United States were
allies.
Mr. Schine. Did you read some of the agreements?
Miss Moon. I didn't get involved in that. I was on the
purchasing end. They bought the material from us and we took
care of the records on the American side.
Mr. Schine. Did you learn of a transaction which involved
the sale of American cruisers to Russia?
Miss Moon. Do you mean boats?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Where were you geographically located?
Miss Moon. On 16th Street and Park Road.
Mr. Schine. In Washington?
Miss Moon. Yes.
Mr. Schine. And who was your employer? Whom did you report
to?
Miss Moon. The only one I remember I worked for was Major
Polak.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Miss Moon. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. How do you pronounce it?
Miss Moon. Major Polak.
Mr. Schine. Was he a Russian?
Miss Moon. Yes. Then my immediate supervisor was an
American.
Mr. Schine. What was his name--your immediate supervisor?
Miss Moon. It was a woman. I don't remember.
Mr. Schine. This was some of the purchasing commission?
Miss Moon. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Did Major Polak hire you?
Miss Moon. No, personnel. The American side of the
personnel division sent me to his division.
Mr. Schine. What was the name of the individual who hired
you?
Miss Moon. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. And what was the name of your immediate
supervisor?
Miss Moon. I can't think of that.
Mr. Schine. Was this office located near the Russian
embassy?
Miss Moon. The Russian embassy was down on 16th Street and
Connecticut Avenue, about a mile away.
Mr. Schine. Did you have occasion to visit the Russian
embassy?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Did officials from the Russian embassy come to
this office?
Miss Moon. Yes, people from the Pentagon. Everybody was in
and out of there. Official people from the Pentagon and embassy
both.
Mr. Schine. Did anybody there try to get you to join the
Communist party?
Miss Moon. No, they had a segregation policy. They wouldn't
let the Americans fraternize with the Russians, wouldn't talk
to them practically. If they got too friendly, they would be
among the missing.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Doxey Wilkerson?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You never knew him?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever know Doris Walters Powell?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. And you say your present job is what?
Miss Moon. Transportation agent, Signal Corps, First Army,
detailed to Watson, in the Watson area.
Mr. Schine. And your duties are that of a clerk?
Miss Moon. Traffic clerk, handling all incoming and
outgoing shipments. It is freight. We handle all of the
freight.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any Communist party members?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You know Major Polak?
Miss Moon. Well, I thought you meant Americans. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Did you think he was a member of the Communist
party?
Miss Moon. I don't know, he was a funny character. I will
tell you a funny story. He said to me, ``Miss Moon, I am an
engineer by mistake.'' He said he didn't want to be an
engineer. I said, ``If you don't want to be an engineer, why
don't you be something else?'' He said they wouldn't like it.
``You don't understand.'' Then he wouldn't talk any more. Then
when I looked up he was gone.
Mr. Schine. Was he still in charge there when you left?
Miss Moon. No, he left. Went back to Russia.
Mr. Schine. Who replaced him?
Miss Moon. I don't know. He was the only one that tried to
be friendly. He was more American than any of them. He tried to
be sociable.
Mr. Schine. Surely you thought some of the American
employees were tied up with the Communist party?
Miss Moon. I never thought about it. It never entered my
mind. At that time we seemed to be working together.
Mr. Schine. Think back to that situation, can you remember
the names of some of your fellow-workers who you thought were
tied up with the party. It has only been ten years.
Miss Moon. Ten years. Good Heavens! That is a long time.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been working for the Signal
Corps?
Miss Moon. I went there in June 1950. This is going on the
fourth year.
Mr. Schine. Where were you employed before that?
Miss Moon. Before that I was with the National Bureau of
Standards in Washington.
Mr. Schine. For whom did you work there?
Miss Moon. Dr. Cannon.
Mr. Schine. And how long did you work at the Bureau of
Standards?
Miss Moon. I worked there three and a half to four years.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Dr. [Edward U.] Condon?
Miss Moon. I was there during that investigation. I know
all of them big shots there.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Doxey Wilkerson?
Miss Moon. No, I don't.
Mr. Schine. What other branch of the government have you
worked for?
Miss Moon. Well, the Treasury Department and the Bureau of
Standards.
Mr. Schine. Who hired you for the Treasury Department?
Miss Moon. I took a Civil Service examination and they
called me off the list.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been sympathetic towards communism?
Miss Moon. No, indeed.
Mr. Schine. Did you like working in the Russian----
Miss Moon. No, it was too high powered.
Mr. Schine. How did they happen to hire you?
Miss Moon. At that time it was during the Lend-Lease
program and they needed Americans to handle the American side
of the records. We were giving them our money and Americans
were put in there to protect the records on the American side.
There was a definite distinction. They were there and we were
here.
Mr. Schine. Was there anybody who worked with you who you
thought was a Communist?
Miss Moon. No, I never thought about it.
Mr. Schine. Is there anything you feel you should tell the
committee at this time?
Miss Moon. No, not in particular. I never even thought
about anything like that.
Mr. Schine. In the Condon investigation what part did you
play. You said you were----
Miss Moon. Oh, no. I was down there while the furry was
going on. Nobody called me for anything. I was working down
there then.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much for coming in, Miss Moon.
We call a great many people and we make no evaluation of them
one way or another. We will call you if we need you again.
STATEMENT OF PETER ROSMOVSKY
Mr. Juliana. Mr. Rosmovsky, where do you live now?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Bradley Beach, 108 Second Avenue.
Mr. Juliana. What is your present position?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Radio engineer, Signal Corps Engineering
Laboratory, headquarters staff.
Mr. Juliana. And how long have you been there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Since January 1951.
Mr. Juliana. Were you ever employed at Los Alamos, which I
believe is in New Mexico?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No.
Mr. Juliana. No.
Mr. Rosmovsky. No. I was in New Mexico, Alamagordo Air
Base.
Mr. Juliana. What did you do there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I was on a project for the air force. I used
to work at Watson Laboratories at the time which was the air
force installation.
Mr. Juliana. When were you in New Mexico?
Mr. Rosmovsky. August 1946. I was there around Thanksgiving
of 1946. I came back east and went out again around January and
stayed there until July of 1947.
Mr. Juliana. And can you tell us specifically what you did
while you were there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I was working with one specific radar
section. I was on a special radar set tracking V-2 missiles
from White Sands.
Mr. Juliana. While you were in New Mexico did you know of
any individuals who were implicated in espionage activities?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Were you associated with officers of the
Canadian air force?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Oh, yes. I knew a Flight Lieutenant McLean.
Mr. Juliana. Was he at any time ever involved in any
Canadian espionage activities?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever been a member of a subversive
organization?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Including the Communist party?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Are you familiar with the organizations that
have been declared subversive by the attorney general?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes, I have seen the list quite a few times.
Mr. Juliana. And you have never been associated in any way
with any of those organizations?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever have any knowledge at all that
any espionage activities were going on while you were in New
Mexico, particularly among Canadian officers?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't think I do, no.
Mr. Juliana. Your associations with these people were
purely business associations?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Well, Flight Lieutenant McLean was assigned
there from the Canadian army, assigned to the air force. After
working hours we probably had drinks together at the Officers'
Club. We may have been in town together a couple of times, the
town of Alamorgordo.
That is the extent of it.
Mr. Juliana. It was more of a business association?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Oh, yes.
Mr. Juliana. Is that near Los Alamos?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Not that I know of. I don't know where Los
Alamos is exactly.
Mr. Juliana. It is near Albuquerque.
Mr. Rosmovsky. It must be 400 miles, 350 miles at least.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever have any knowledge of subversive
activities going on at Fort Monmouth--now or in the past?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
I want to add something there. Something out at Alamorgordo
Air Base. You asked me whether I had heard of any espionage. I
think when I was out there, there was some kind of rumor or
something about espionage out there.
Mr. Juliana. You knew it only as a rumor?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Can you recall any of the individuals that
were involved?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't think I know anything about
individuals. I just heard somebody say something about
espionage.
Mr. Juliana. Could it have been this fellow [Donald]
McLean?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know.
Mr. Juliana. Did he mention this to you?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't think so.
Mr. Juliana. What were his duties there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Liaison officer, Canadian army. His job, I
believe, he was attached to the air force and also communicated
between there and White Sands, about forty miles or so. As such
he had access to V-2 data.
Mr. Juliana. Were there other Canadians there also?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't remember. I don't think so.
Mr. Juliana. He is the only Canadian you recall?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. And other than hearing about this espionage
rumor, you can't elaborate?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I just remember something being said about
spies.
Mr. Juliana. Over at Fort Monmouth, do you know Aaron
Coleman?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How well do you know him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. He came to work at the laboratory and I met
him then and I knew him when he lived in our apartment house at
108 Second Avenue. I have known him ever since.
Mr. Juliana. Were you ever a member of a car pool which
Coleman was a member of?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know him socially?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Does that mean frequent visits to his home?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How frequent?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Well, it might have been two or three times
a week. We used to drop in there. We probably ate together.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever seen a classified document in
Aaron Coleman's possession, either at his home or in his
personal possession? In his personal possession, on his person,
either inside or outside of the laboratory--outside of the
laboratory areas?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, not that I know of.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know him in 1947?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes, sir. Except I was away at Alamorgordo
most of 1947, at least until July and from July on, the rest of
1947, I was back at Watson Laboratories. I had very little
contact with Coleman during that period. I believe he was
married and I didn't see him too often and I didn't see him at
work.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know that Aaron Coleman allowed his
apartment to be searched and numerous classified documents were
found by the G-2 officers?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes, sir. I heard it.
Mr. Juliana. What was your reaction to that?
Mr. Rosmovsky. At the time?
Mr. Juliana. At the time.
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't particularly remember any reaction
except I didn't think that it was anything unusual. People
would take home stuff for study quite frequently.
Mr. Juliana. Who else besides Coleman you know of took
classified material home to study very frequently? You say it
was the usual procedure?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know that he took it home. I only
found that out afterwards.
Mr. Juliana. You never actually saw the material in his
apartment?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Bernard Martin?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How long have you known him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I can't remember very well. I knew about him
in the Signal Corps and I knew of him in the air force.
Mr. Juliana. Would you say you have known him a number of
years?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Very slightly. I know him to see him. I knew
him professionally as an employee at the Watson Laboratories.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know Bernard Martin socially?
Mr. Rosmovsky. A little bit, I guess.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know Jerome Corwin?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How did you know him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I met him when he came to work at Camp Evans
at the Signal Corps.
Mr. Juliana. When did you meet him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know exactly, probably around 1942,
something like that.
Mr. Juliana. You say you have no knowledge of any espionage
activities at Fort Monmouth or at any of the laboratories?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No direct knowledge, no.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Haym Yamins?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How well do you know him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Well, I know him from work. I worked--I
believe I was under him, I think, at Evans for a while doing
some of the organizational changes and undoubtedly mostly from
work.
Mr. Juliana. You did not know him socially?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I knew him socially. I was to his house once
or twice.
Mr. Juliana. Did any individual ever ask you to remove
classified material from any of the laboratories when you were
working?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever take any of the classified
material home for study or any other purpose?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I may have. I probably took classified
material home when I was working at Watson Laboratories for the
Signal Corps. When we had to make trips we had to carry papers.
We would take classified material with us.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever take classified material merely
to do your work at home, study it and then return it the next
day or within the next few days?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, I am not exactly a student.
Mr. Juliana. All right, Mr. Rosmovsky, if we should need
you again we will be in touch with Fort Monmouth authorities
and they can advise you.
Mr. Rosmovsky. I am taking a couple of days leave beginning
Wednesday, would that make any difference?
Mr. Juliana. No, that is all right. Thanks very much.
STATEMENT OF SARAH OMANSON
Mr. Juliana. What is your name please?
Miss Omanson. Sarah Omanson.
Mr. Juliana. What is your address?
Miss Omanson. 240 State Street, Perth Amboy, New Jersey.
Mr. Juliana. What is your present position?
Miss Omanson. I am a librarian at Squire Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Juliana. You are the librarian.
Miss Omanson. I am not the librarian. I am a librarian at
Squires Laboratory.
Mr. Juliana. Where is that located?
Miss Omanson. At Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Juliana. How long have you been there?
Miss Omanson. I have been there since September 1949--I had
been there a number of years but I was transferred from the air
force.
Mr. Juliana. When did you first become employed at Fort
Monmouth?
Miss Omanson. March 1942.
Mr. Juliana. What do your present duties entail?
Miss Omanson. At the present time I do cataloging. That is
not classified material. I do have access to classified
material. I do some circulation work. You see, the present set
up, the libraries were actually one unit--Evans, Coles and
Squire, prior to moving to the new building. I have been
permanently assigned to Squires since last year. I did work two
days at Evans.
Mr. Juliana. Miss Omanson, have you ever been a member of
the Communist party?
Miss Omanson. Never.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever been a member of any
organization which has been cited as a Communist front
organization by the attorney general?
Miss Omanson. Never to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Juliana. Are you familiar with the organizations that
have been cited by the attorney general?
Miss Omanson. Yes. I have seen the Department of Army
civilian personnel pamphlet and in laboratories.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know of any of your associates who may
be members of the Communist party?
Miss Omanson. Not to my knowledge. I wouldn't have anything
to do with them.
Mr. Juliana. Have any of your friends or anyone asked you
to remove classified material where you work?
Miss Omanson. Never.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever removed any classified material
for studying purposes or any reason?
Miss Omanson. Never. I do not study the material.
Mr. Juliana. Who is your immediate superior?
Miss Omanson. My immediate superior at Squire is Mr. Thomas
J. Lilli, the head of all three is Helen Devore.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Miss Omanson. No, I don't.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know a Bernard Martin?
Miss Omanson. There was a Bernard Martin who was employed
in Watson. I knew him as a library patron. Later on, about a
year after he came to Monmouth. I knew he was employed there
because he came to the library at Squire.
Mr. Juliana. Since you have been employed at Fort Monmouth,
have all your duties centered around library work?
Miss Omanson. That is correct.
Mr. Juliana. What type of classified work do you handle?
Miss Omanson. As high as secret. This is for the library.
Mr. Juliana. For the purpose of laboratory personnel?
Miss Omanson. The library keeps a file.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Miss Omanson. I remember him as a library patron in Watson.
As I remember, he was suspended sometime in the forties, late
forties.
Mr. Juliana. And most of your associations with these
people is strictly business--in connection with your work?
Miss Omanson. My duties. I do not know any of them
personally.
Mr. Juliana. Do you have access to the laboratories as
such? Are you allowed to go into the laboratories?
Miss Omanson. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Your clearance includes that.
Miss Omanson. Secret, yes.
Mr. Juliana. Do you have any knowledge of any subversive
activities at Fort Monmouth or any of the laboratories?
Miss Omanson. None whatsoever. My first inkling came with
the publicity in the newspapers.
Mr. Juliana. If you had been asked to join an organization
in Perth Amboy or had been asked to maybe sign some petition,
do you think you would have recognized it had it been a
Communist organization?
Miss Omanson. I think I would. I think so, I don't know.
Mr. Juliana. Do you have any brothers and sisters who live
in Perth Amboy?
Miss Omanson. I only have my father and mother.
Mr. Juliana. What are their names?
Miss Omanson. My father's name is Samuel and my mother's
name is Rebecca.
Mr. Juliana. Have they ever been members of any subversive
groups?
Miss Omanson. Goodness, no. Never.
Mr. Juliana. All right, Miss Omanson, I think that is
sufficient for now. If we need you in the future we will be in
touch with you through the Fort Monmouth authorities. Thanks
very much for coming.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Mounting contention developed between the
subcommittee and the United States Army over the Eisenhower
administration's refusal to make available for testimony
members of the army's loyalty and security hearing boards,
screening boards, appeals or review boards. Eisenhower relied
on a 1948 executive order by his predecessor, Harry Truman,
barring officials from discussing specific loyalty board cases.
One of the few loyalty board members to testify was Sherrod
East (1910-1999). A graduate of the University of Denver, East
came to Washington in 1933 as an aide to Colorado
Representative Lawrence Lewis. He joined the staff of the
National Archives in 1937 and during World War II was
transferred to the War Department as an archivist of military
records. Between February 1952 and March 1953, he served on the
army's loyalty screening board panel. A related issue was
East's role as an original occupant and member of the town
council of Greenbelt, Maryland, one of the planned towns that
the New Deal's Resettlement Administration had created in the
1930s. In 1958 East returned to the National Archives along
with the army's records; and retired in 1967 as chief archivist
of World War II military documents.
Nathan Sussman testified in public session on December 8,
1953. Harold Ducore, Stanley R. Rich (1917-1993), Carl
Greenblum (1916-1997), Sherrod East, Jacob Kaplan, James P.
Scott, Bernard Lee, and Melvin M. Morris did not testify in
public. Louis Leo Kaplan did not appear in public session;
instead the Louis Kaplan who testified in executive session on
October 13 was called to testify publicly on December 17,
1953.]
----------
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: G. David Schine, chief consultant; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr, staff director; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel.
Present also: John Adams, counselor to secretary of the
army.
STATEMENT OF HAROLD DUCORE (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, HARRY
GREEN)
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name for the record,
please?
Mr. Ducore. Harold Ducore.
Mr. Schine. Will counsel state his name?
Mr. Green. Harry Green.
Mr. Schine. And your firm?
Mr. Green. No, I practice individually. 16 Church Street,
Little Silver, New Jersey.
Mr. Schine. We called you back today to ask you some
questions in light of some additional material which has turned
up.
I believe when you first appeared before us you listed all
of the references that you gave when you took a position with
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Ducore. No, I didn't. I wasn't asked that question. I
couldn't do it. It is so long ago, twelve years ago. Since then
I have filled out any number of forms with new references. When
I first filled out an application for a position, is that it?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Ducore. I don't remember that.
Mr. Green. Mr. Schine, do you mean when he first made
application for the position?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Ducore. I don't even have a copy of that at home.
Mr. Schine. Were you in the class of 1938?
Mr. Ducore. I was graduated actually in 1941. I entered in
January 1935 but I switched to night school when I was going to
school and it took me five and a half years to get through.
Mr. Schine. About how many of your classmates that attended
City College at the time you did would you say were members of
the Communist party?
Mr. Ducore. I have no idea of that. I went to get an
education. I don't know if you are aware of the situation, but
that is a subway school. You go to school by subway, train, and
go home when you are finished. All during the time I was going
to school I was also working, at the beginning in my father's
restaurant and after that for the New Jersey Broadcasting
Corporation, and I had no time for outside activities.
Mr. Schine. About how many did you know when at City
College?
Mr. Ducore. I had no outside interest at the school other
than belonging to the Radio Club.
Mr. Schine. Didn't you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Ducore. I don't remember him from school at all.
Mr. Schine. You can't remember any of the names of the
references that you gave when you took a position with the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Ducore. I don't remember any specific names. The only
possibility would be that I gave names of some of the people I
worked with at the New Jersey Broadcasting Corporation.
Mr. Schine. Give us those names?
Mr. Ducore. The chief engineer was my brother-in-law, Wayne
Allison Burnham. The other engineers that were there at the
same time were William Fairclough, Harold McCambridge, Theodore
Gemp.
Mr. Schine. Now, when did you first meet J. Robert
Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. I never met him. Are you talking about the
physicist, the scientist?
Mr. Schine. Did you ever know an Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. I knew a--I can't think of his first name. He
was married to a girl my wife knew up in New Rochelle, New
York.
Mr. Schine. Did you know him very well?
Mr. Ducore. I knew him while he was over at Fort Monmouth.
He was stationed there.
Mr. Schine. Did you meet him after you went to Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Ducore. Oh, yes. After he was stationed at Fort
Monmouth his wife came down and she knew my wife and we saw
them several times after he was discharged.
Mr. Schine. Did you give him as a reference?
Mr. Ducore. I gave him as a reference but not in the
beginning.
Mr. Schine. When did you give him as a reference?
Mr. Ducore. I can't think of the date. Five, six, seven
years ago.
Mr. Schine. You knew him?
Mr. Ducore. That was at the time at Fort Monmouth or
shortly after he left. This Oppenheimer I am talking about, I
can't think of his first name. I gave him as a reference.
Mr. Schine. J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. This is not J. Robert I gave as a reference.
Mr. Schine. In other words, you never knew J. Robert
Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. But you did know a man by the name of
Oppenheimer who was a friend of your sister's?
Mr. Ducore. Married to a friend of my wife.
Mr. Schine. When did you give him as a reference?
Mr. Ducore. I gave him as a reference sometime when I was
employed at Fort Monmouth in connection with a promotion, or
something. No, I think it was one of the Civil Service forms.
It may have been a new security form.
Mr. Schine. Were his initials J. R.?
Mr. Ducore. Gee, I can't think of his first name.
Mr. Schine. Was he any relation to J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. That I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Will you try and think of his name?
Mr. Ducore. I will try.
Mr. Schine. Or his address or where you first met?
Mr. Ducore. I first met him at Fort Monmouth while he was a
2nd lt. there.
Mr. Schine. What was his job?
Mr. Ducore. At that time I think he was in the publications
agency, I am not sure.
Mr. Schine. Approximately what year was this?
Mr. Ducore. Well, this would have been after I was married;
probably I would say, 1945.
Mr. Schine. Could you find out from your wife what his name
is?
Mr. Ducore. Oh, yes. I know his wife's name was Emily and
her maiden name was Lowenfeld.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Ducore. I think L-o-w-e-n-f-e-l-d.
Mr. Schine. Now, will you get that information to the
committee as soon as you can?
Mr. Ducore. Would you like for me to call Mr. Buckley?
Mr. Schine. Yes, if you would call.
Mr. Schine. Did you take out secret documents last year
which you didn't return?
Mr. Ducore. No, I never took out any secret documents for
my own private use.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true that you took out two secret
documents and instead of returning them you destroyed them?
Mr. Ducore. No. I never knew anything about that.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been asked about that?
Mr. Ducore. No, I have never been asked. That is something
I wouldn't do.
Mr. Schine. You never destroyed secret documents?
Mr. Ducore. Never outside the laboratory.
Mr. Schine. Did you destroy two secret documents in the
laboratory?
Mr. Ducore. Any number in the laboratory, yes.
Mr. Schine. Did you take out secret documents which you
didn't return?
Mr. Ducore. No, never.
Mr. Schine. Or which were unaccounted for?
Mr. Ducore. Never.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you took secret document
out?
Mr. Ducore. I can't give you any specific dates, but I
think approximately a year ago. I can't be sure of this. I took
some material to Washington with me.
Mr. Schine. Which material was this?
Mr. Ducore. I can't even remember the particular trip.
Mr. Schine. You didn't take any secret material between
that time and between the time your security clearance was
lifted?
Mr. Ducore. I know I needed it but other people accompanied
me on the 538 who were allowed to take documents out.
Mr. Schine. What was the approximate date of this trip to
Washington when you took out secret material?
Mr. Ducore. The best I can give you would be a year ago.
Mr. Schine. That would be around October 1952?
Mr. Ducore. Roughly. I have no way of really remembering.
Mr. Schine. And you never to the best of your knowledge
took secret material out since October 1952?
Mr. Ducore. To the best of my knowledge I never took
anything on a trip since that time. I have had material out but
other people would carry it.
Mr. Schine. Who carried it?
Mr. Ducore. Colonel Gaither, director of Evans Signal Corps
and John J. Slattery, who is the acting chief of the technical
division, Evans Signal Corps.
Mr. Schine. What was this material, secret?
Mr. Ducore. Oh, yes.
Mr. Schine. They went to Washington with you?
Mr. Ducore. Not necessarily to Washington but on trips that
I needed material they gave it to them to carry.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go?
Mr. Ducore. With Colonel Gaither I went to Fort Sill,
Oklahoma. With Mr. Slattery, I am not positive but I think it
was Washington.
Mr. Schine. Was anybody else on that trip?
Mr. Ducore. With Colonel Gaither, yes. Mr. Lowenstein,
Allan J.
Mr. Schine. Has his security been lifted?
Mr. Ducore. Yes, it was.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any reason?
Mr. Ducore. No, I don't think he has had any charges yet.
Mr. Schine. I don't think we have any more questions to ask
you now. If we need you we will get in touch with you. We
appreciate your coming up today.
We will appreciate it if you will get that name----
Mr. Ducore. Oh, Philip. I don't know his middle initial. He
was a 2nd lt. When he got out of the army he worked for a
chemical company, Merck, but it wasn't too long after that that
we stopped seeing each other.
Mr. Schine. Did you know him very well?
Mr. Ducore. I knew him as a pleasant fellow. We use to go
out together. We would go to the movies together.
Mr. Schine. You don't know whether he is related to J.
Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. I have no idea.
Mr. Schine. You don't know that he isn't related?
Mr. Ducore. No, I don't.
Mr. Schine. All right. Thank you very much.
STATEMENT OF STANLEY RICH
Mr. Schine. Will you give us your name for the record?
Mr. Rich. Stanley R. Rich.
Mr. Schine. And where do you live?
Mr. Rich. I live in West Hartford, Connecticut.
Mr. Schine. What is your current occupation?
Mr. Rich. I am co-director of the Rich-Roth Laboratories of
Hartford.
Mr. Schine. Is that a private company?
Mr. Rich. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever worked for the government?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I have.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about the jobs you have had
with the government?
Mr. Rich. My first position out of school was with the
Bureau of Ordnance, Navy Department, Torpedo Design Section in
Washington, D.C., which I held from October 24, 1938 to
February 1, 1940; then I was transferred to the Radio Material
Office, New York Navy Yard, Brooklyn, New York, where after
various titles, the last one I had was outside supervising
engineer in charge of installation and maintenance of
electronic equipment of various kinds. Those are the only
government jobs I have had.
Mr. Schine. When did you start the last job?
Mr. Rich. February 1, 1940. That was a transfer and it
terminated in April 1943, when it was requested by the Bureau
of Ships that I transfer to Harvard University because I had
developed a new type sonar system and proposed it to the bureau
and I have a commendation for that.
Mr. Schine. Your second job was ordnance. That was navy?
Mr. Rich. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Rich. City College, New York and two other schools.
Mr. Schine. You knew Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Rich. In school.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about your association with
Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Rich. Rosenberg was a classmate of mine. I believe he
either graduated at the same time I did, which was June 1938,
or not too differently thereafter. I was also a member, for a
period of about eight months of a club which is called
``Steinmetz Club'' which was affiliated with the Young
Communist League. Rosenberg was an officer of that club. I
attended several meetings of the club myself.
Mr. Schine. Do you know some of the other individuals who
were in that club?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I do. Sobell, Elitcher, Danziger, Sussman.
Mr. Schine. Which Sussman?
Mr. Rich. This is Nathan, the fellow I met for the first
time in fifteen years out here. He looks different without his
hair.
Mr. Schine. The Sussman in the waiting room?
Mr. Rich. Yes. Now, that was the total extent of my
knowledge of Rosenberg, sir.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us any other names of Communists
you knew in that period of your life?
Mr. Rich. Well, I would say that almost everyone in the
graduating class that I was in, while not a Communist by any
means, nor would I go on record as accusing people which I have
no proof of, was undoubtedly interested in these things and
probably on one or more occasions attended a meeting or so.
Mr. Schine. Do you know who was the main instigator of
Communist activities at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. I don't know who for sure but I would say that
the ring-leader, without a question in my mind, was Rosenberg.
Mr. Schine. Do you know who lead Rosenberg?
Mr. Rich. No, sir, that I don't.
Mr. Schine. We know he was quite active during the class of
1938, that period around there, but we have been trying to
ascertain who indoctrinated Rosenberg if that is possible to
find out.
Mr. Rich. That I don't know, sir.
Mr. Schine. Do you know where you could find that out?
Mr. Rich. No. That has been fifteen and a half years and my
interest in those things ceased when I graduated.
Mr. Schine. I understand there is a professor there who is
quite radical. Can you think of any professor that might have
been the main advocate of communism?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't know the main advocate would be. There
is only one professor whose name sticks in my mind and I think
he was bounced the year after I graduated. Somebody name
Schappes.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Cohn. S-c-h-a-p-p-e-s, Morris.
Mr. Rich. I personally had no contact with this fellow.
This is a recollection from things that happened around this
school.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any names of other professors
who had leftist leanings?
Mr. Rich. Really not for the reason in the engineering
school there were practically none. By none, I am not as
certain of that as the day I was born. In the engineering
school I don't think any of the professors exhibited it openly.
Mr. Cohn. How about Professor Lehrman in the chemistry
department?
Mr. Rich. No, I didn't know him. I had one course in
chemistry, general chemistry.
Mr. Schine. Did any professors try to get you to join the
Communist party?
Mr. Rich. Never did.
Mr. Schine. Did anybody else?
Mr. Rich. No. Incidentally, never in my life. I think
possibly I was a much to independent person to be lead by the
nose.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any individuals working at Fort
Monmouth or working for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Rich. I know now that classmates of mine are out there.
I visited that area once in the company of Dr. Alfred G. Ennis
as a representative from the Submarine Signal Company as a
representative to an electronic conference there and met a
whole lot of people, including people who were some of my
classmates. I couldn't tell you who or how many.
Mr. Schine. What about Harold Ducore?
Mr. Rich. I don't recall him.
Mr. Schine. Coleman?
Mr. Rich. Coleman I do recall. His name is familiar to me.
I didn't see him when I visited Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. Do you remember Ducorsky?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. What about Jerome Corwin?
Mr. Rich. That doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Schine. Jerome Rothstein?
Mr. Rich. The name is slightly familiar but I'm sure I
wouldn't know him.
Mr. Schine. William P. Goldberg?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Edward J. Fister?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Allan J. Lowenstein?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Paul Seigal?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Can you remember any individuals who were in
your class end who associated with the Rosenberg crowd that are
now working for the United States government?
Mr. Rich. Frankly, no. In this recent investigation of
yours names have come into the press. Sussman whom I have just
met here for the first time in fifteen and a half years use to
know Rosenberg. I don't know what he has done since then. If
you could tell me some more names.
Mr. Schine. How about Sorwitz, Jerome. Do you remember him?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. You do recall Coleman?
Mr. Rich. Oh, yes.
Mr. Schine. Do you remember any of Coleman's friends?
Mi. Rich. I don't think Coleman ran with the Rosenberg
crowd more or less while at school.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether or not Coleman was a
Communist then?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't be able to say. My recollection would
be that I would doubt it. He was a very studious kid as I
remember. That doesn't have anything to do with it I know.
Mr. Cohn. Was he in the Steinmetz Club?
Mr. Rich. I don't believe he was but I wouldn't be
surprised if he attended a meeting.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him at a meeting?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't be able to recall.
Mr. Cohn. Don't you have any recollection?
Mr. Rich. I am trying to dredge my memory. That is pretty
much of a blur now.
Mr. Schine. Do you know if it would be possible to get a
list of the members of the Steinmetz Club?
Mr. Rich. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Continue.
Mr. Rich. The people I have named are the people I recall.
A couple I have left out. I guess Perl attended more meetings,
whether he was a member or not, I don't know. I think he
attended more meetings than Coleman on a qualitative basis. I
would say Perl was certainly friendlier to Sobell and Elitcher
than was Coleman.
Mr. Schine. But Coleman was quite friendly with them?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't say he was overly friendly, no.
Mr. Schine. Do you have any recollection of Coleman being
at any of these meetings?
Mr. Rich. Not specifically. I do have recollection that
damn near everybody attended a meeting or so. The trouble was
the campus atmosphere of those days was what I now would
consider to be poison.
Mr. Cohn. How about Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Rich. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Samuel Pomeranz?
Mr. Rich. I recall him.
Mr. Cohn. Was he at any of these meetings?
Mr. Rich. I would doubt it.
Mr. Cohn. How about Sam Lavine?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't really be able to say. Maybe yes and
maybe no.
Mr. Cohn. Louie Volp?
Mr. Rich. I don't know him.
Mr. Cohn. Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Rich. No.
In answer to one of your earlier question as to whether I
knew people working out there or not, I can tell you this: I
wouldn't know whether they are working out there or not.
Mr. Schine. Would you answer this please. You say that the
climate of CCNY--in fact, would you say the entire school was
leftist?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I would definitely say that.
Mr. Schine. Now, communism was a pretty openly discussed
ideology?
Mr. Rich. Unfortunately there was a situation I would not
want to tolerate when I send my children to school. There was a
situation where younger people, like myself, what amounts to a
fertile field for ideas in the midst of people who are telling
lies.
Mr. Schine. Was Julius Rosenberg openly a Communist at that
time?
Mr. Rich. I would say almost more than anybody else in the
engineering school.
Mr. Schine. Do you think that everybody who knew Julius
Rosenberg knew he was a Communist?
Mr. Rich. I would be surprised if anyone said opposite.
Mr. Schine. Would you think Aaron Coleman knew that Julius
Rosenberg was a Communist?
Mr. Rich. I would say so. I'd be surprised if he didn't
recognize that.
Mr. Schine. Do you think he would have known at that time
that Julius Rosenberg was a Communist?
Mr. Rich. That is what you just asked me.
Mr. Schine. I mean Morton Sobell?
Mr. Rich. He might or might not have. I think the answer is
less definite but still positive.
Mr. Schine. In other words, Sobell and Rosenberg were both
open Communists?
Mr. Rich. We will put it this way: There seemed to be a
group of people who socialized a lot together. They lived--
actually, I don't know where they lived.
Mr. Cohn. Who?
Mr. Rich. Sobell, Elitcher, Danziger and a fellow named
Barr.
Mr. Cohn. Joel Barr?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I think that was his first name.
Mr. Cohn. How about Benjamin Zuckerman?
Mr. Rich. I knew him quite well. If he has gotten into
trouble, poor kid, he has been terribly mislead. At school he
was not leftist in the slightest degree. Maybe he was but I
didn't think of him in those terms. Actually, I wasn't
particularly friendly with Zuckerman at school, but we moved to
Washington, various of us accepted positions in Washington and
Zuckerman was not what anybody would classify as leftist.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a fellow by the name of Mark
Pogarsky?
Mr. Rich. I don't know anything about him except I remember
the name it is so unusual.
Mr. Schine. Was there anyone to whom Julius Rosenberg
reported?
Mr. Rich. That, sir, I would not know.
Mr. Schine. Did there seem to be individuals or places that
Julius Rosenberg as the so-called ring leader of this group
went for instructions?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't know, sir. Just how these things
happened is still something of a mystery to me.
Mr. Cohn. How about a fellow named Sam Greenman?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Cohn. Can you recall the names of any other persons who
attended the Steinmetz Club?
Mr. Rich. Not as such. I do recall another individual who
worked for the government. I think one of the fellows phoned
me, Mr. Juliana, and asked me about a fellow named Bennet. I
did recall there was a Bennett. The reason I remember that, did
he have another name?
Mr. Cohn. Benowitz. What about him did he attend these
meetings?
Mr. Rich. I would say not. He wasn't particularly
interested anyway. All of these remarks essentially are
recollections of impressions.
Mr. Schine. What about Jack Okun?
Mr. Rich. I don't remember him.
Mr. Schine. I asked you before to give us the names of any
individuals who attended City College, New York, who you
thought were affiliated with the Communist movement and who
since have taken positions and worked for the U.S. government.
Can you give us anymore names?
Mr. Rich. Beyond those I have mentioned, I am sort of a
blank. I will be thinking about it a little bit.
Mr. Schine. Which names have you mentioned already?
Mr. Rich. Well, I think the people are apparently friends
of Rosenberg. I think that is about it, actually. I find out
Sussman had been with the government. I say I find out, he just
told me.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever come in contact with any of these
individuals after college days?
Mr. Rich. With some of them when various people at the
school took the Civil Service examination and some of us were
offered positions in Washington and at the Bureau of Ordnance,
I found myself arriving at approximately the same time as
Elitcher, Sobell, Danziger, Ben Zuckerman, a fellow named
Solberg, incidentally, who was a graduate of a few years before
that. He was not even contemporary with us but he later took a
position. I knew those people in Washington.
Excuse me. I don't want to be too loose. I knew those
people at work and for a period of three months I lived with
them while preparing to get married. After I was married we
moved off on Delafield Place. This has been well documented.
Mr. Schine. Were there any other Communists you haven't
told us about?
Mr. Rich. No. I want to say, if I may, my wife and I had
taken a distinct dislike to these particular people and after
that three months period we did not socialize with them at all
in Washington or ever after. I am a reasonably mild mannered
fellow but I called Sobell a swine once when I had supper with
him.
Mr. Schine. Why did you call him that?
Mr. Rich. He is personally piggish in his habits, an
irascible person. Just a louse.
Mr. Schine. Did these people have Communist meetings at
this residence?
Mr. Rich. This I would not know. To the best of my
knowledge they did not. I spent most of my weekends courting my
wife in New York City.
Mr. Schine. Did they ever have visitors--foreigners from
Russia?
Mr. Rich. Not that I know of.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of anyone these individuals
contacted that they took orders from?
Mr. Rich. I never knew these individuals in any later
years, thank God. At the time I went to ordnance, after moving
into my own place I lost contact with them and saw an entirely
different group of people.
Mr. Schine. You can't think of anyone they contacted and
took orders from when you lived with them?
Mr. Rich. No, sir. I can't, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did these people talk about the overthrow by
force and violence of our government?
Mr. Rich. Not in my earshot, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did they ever talk about espionage or hint that
they might be interested in obtaining information for a foreign
government?
Mr. Rich. No. At least not while I was around.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever see them with any confidential,
secret or classified information they shouldn't have had?
Mr. Rich. No, I must say in the three months I lived with
them we were junior engineers doing extremely menial work. I,
myself, at that time worked on torpedoes. Nothing that I was
given to do was of any nature where you would want to even
study it.
Mr. Schine. Now, when you took this job with the ordnance
division, how did you happen to become interested in it?
Mr. Rich. Jobs were kind of hard to get--engineers. I took
a Civil Service examination in June, the same month I
graduated. I had a grade of, I don't know, somewheres in the
nineties, and I was very pleased.
Mr. Schine. Do you think it was coincidental that they took
these positions or do you think somebody in ordnance was trying
to get people of that following in government?
Mr. Rich. I personally feel it must have been coincidental.
I believe it was entirely according to position on the list.
For example, I have no proof and wouldn't know the power behind
the screen, but there are some fact which lead me to feel it
was random and those are that, as I recall, I don't know what
the grades were, the various grades made by various individuals
were in a point or so of each other. I suspect it must have
been random. I certainly had no inkling of any of this.
Mr. Schine. Were all of the individuals examined quite
capable in their work at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. That was one of the toughest exams I have ever
had the displeasure of encountering in my life. It was a mess.
A six-hour examination. It was really comprehensive and anybody
who got a good grade knew his studies.
Mr. Schine. Were these individuals known for their good
grades while at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. Not particularly. I say that for the following
reason: CCNY is, of course, a free college and there are a
tremendous number of students who were flunked out of the
school. Of an engineering class of over two thousand, about one
hundred graduated. Those who graduate are all pretty good.
Mr. Schine. That is what I am trying to ascertain. We have
this group of Communists who attended CCNY and went with the
government. They had to take a very tough examination to go
with the government.
Mr Rich. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Now, were they actually capable to your
knowledge, capable enough to pass this examination?
Mr. Rich. Oh, yes.
Mr. Schine. Or do you think there might have been something
wrong with the Civil Service----
Mr. Rich. With the examination? I doubt that, sir. I doubt
that very much. The curriculum at CCNY--I think the reason a
student at CCNY got good grades on the examination, by and
large, has not so much to do with the types of individuals but
the extreme thoroughness of the curriculum.
Mr. Schine. In other words, all individuals if they
graduated from CCNY had to be at least intelligent enough to
pass these Civil Service examinations?
Mr. Rich. Yes.
Mr. Schine. I have nothing more that I'd like to ask you
now, unless you can think of further information you'd like to
give us.
Mr. Rich. No, except to say I am extremely pleased not to
have had anything to do with these people since I graduated. If
I can be of further help--my time is difficult. I do appreciate
you getting to me now.
Mr. Schine. Did many people fail the examination at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. I don't believe so. I think the entire graduating
class did a very good job on the examination and I know that
other colleges did not. I know there was something like several
hundred who passed out of six or seven thousand, that is vague
figures, who took the examination.
Mr. Schine. All right. Thank you very much for cooperating
with us. We will call you if we need you again.
STATEMENT OF NATHAN SUSSMAN
Mr. Schine. Will you give us your full name, please?
Mr. Sussman. Nathan Sussman.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you very much for coming up Mr. Sussman.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed?
Mr. Sussman. I am currently employed at Amuco American
Electronics Company.
Mr. Schine. And have you worked for the government in the
past?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us the various jobs you have had
with the government--federal government?
Mr. Sussman. From October 1940 to April 1942 I was employed
by the inspector of naval materiel.
Mr. Schine. What was your function?
Mr. Sussman. Radio employee.
Mr. Cohn. In the navy?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. And where did you go to college?
Mr. Sussman. City College, New York.
Mr. Schine. Now, when at CCNY, you knew Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Would you give us the names of all individuals
you can think of who were tied up with the Communist movement?
Mr. Sussman. You mean the Young Communist League in
particular?
Mr. Schine. Yes, members of the Young Communist League.
Mr. Cohn. Not only members but people you saw in meeting,
differentiating as you go along.
Mr. Sussman. Morton Sobell, Max Elitcher, Abe Emmer.
Mr. Cohn. What ever happened to him? Do you know?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You never heard of him after that?
Mr. Sussman. I don't think so. Joseph Goldfield, Stanley
Rich, Irvin Rosenblum, Henry Shoiket, Aaron Coleman.
Mr. Cohn. Was he a Communist?
Mr. Sussman. Member of the Young Communist League. There
are others. I will have to think about.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any other now?
Mr. Sussman. Morris Savitsky.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear of a man by the name of Morris
Savitt?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Schine. Do you recall Coleman being at more than one
meeting of the league?
Mr. Sussman. My recollection is he was a member. I don't
particularly recall any meetings of the league.
Mr. Schine. You knew Coleman?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Rather well?
Mr. Sussman. I wouldn't say that. I think he was behind me
in school. He was a relatively lower-classman.
Mr. Schine. Who do you associate him with at college?
Mr. Sussman. Coleman?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Sussman. I couldn't say.
Mr. Schine. How did you know him? You knew him together
with whom? Was there anybody else who knew him along with you?
Mr. Sussman. I imagine there must have been, but I can't
remember at this date. That was so long ago. I believe he was
behind me maybe two years or so.
Mr. Schine. Did you meet him at Young Communist League
activities?
Mr. Sussman. Probably.
Mr. Schine. Is that your best recollection?
Mr. Sussman. That is.
Mr. Schine. Would you continue giving us the names? Can you
think of some others?
Mr. Sussman. Matthew Reliz. Did I give Sobell?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Sussman. Joel Barr.
Mr. Cohn. Was Barr likewise a member?
Mr. Schine. All of these were members, weren't they?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, they were.
Mr. Cohn. What ever happened to Goldfield?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Rosenblum?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. How about Shoiket?
Mr. Sussman. Well, Shoiket, I heard, was out in California.
Mr. Cohn. What was he doing out there?
Mr. Sussman. I heard he was working at the navy yard.
Mr. Cohn. About when was that? You probably heard that when
the FBI and all those people were talking to you about the time
of the Rosenbergs.
Mr. Sussman. Yes. Apparently he had been employed there
during the current period. That was my guess.
Mr. Cohn. Where in California? Do you know?
Mr. Sussman. I think Mare Island in San Francisco.
Mr. Cohn. How about Reliz? Do you know what, happened to
him?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any individuals who got jobs
with the government?
Mr. Sussman. I have a vague notion that Coleman may be
working at Fort Monmouth. I don't know what gives me that
impression.
Mr. Schine. Did Coleman join the Communist party?
Mr. Sussman. I have no idea.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether he belonged to the party?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Not in your section in any event?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see Coleman at Communist
meetings?
Mr. Sussman. I would say when I left school or earlier. I
did not see him afterwards.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether he went on into the party?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe I saw him. Another name is
Alexander Farkas. Another is Harry Pastorinsky.
Mr. Cohn. What type of Communist activities in connection
with--in connection with what would you meet these people?
Mr. Sussman. Meetings, most of these people. I don't
believe they did much more than meetings.
Mr. Cohn. The Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did the Young Communist League put out a little
newspaper?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, the technology group did which it has
been recollected to me the name was ``The Interrogator.''
Mr. Schine. Would it be possible for us to get a copy of
the members of the Young Communist League at that time?
Mr. Sussman. Well, what do you mean? From what source?
Mr. Schine. I don't know.
Mr. Sussman. Well, the only source I have is my memory.
There is nothing written. There is no list that I know of.
Mr. Schine. How about that publication? Do you know where
we might get copies?
Mr. Sussman. No. Other people might know but I don't.
Mr. Schine. Was Julius Rosenberg the ringleader of this
group?
Mr. Sussman. He was president of the technology group.
Mr. Cohn. Technology group of the Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Were all these people in the technology group?
Mr. Sussman. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Cohn. We have got Emmer, Sobell, Goldfield, Rosenblum,
Shoiket, Coleman, Reliz, Barr, Pastorinsky. Were everyone of
those including Pastorinsky engineering students?
Mr. Sussman. I don't recollect that he was there. I presume
he was there.
Mr. Cohn. You said you did not know whether Coleman joined
the party?
Mr. Sussman. No, I don't.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see any evidence of a break with
Coleman?
Mr. Sussman. I haven't seen him. I last saw him there. I
don't know what happened. He might have gone on to the party or
he might have become anti-Communist.
Mr. Schine. Who was the main canvasser for the party?
Mr. Sussman. I was fairly active. Rosenberg was active.
There were many people active.
Mr. Schine. Was some faculty member the outside contact?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, there was a faculty representative of the
Communist party to the Young Communist League.
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mr. Sussman. Morris Foner.
Mr. Cohn. That couldn't be Phillip?
Mr. Sussman. No. There was four brothers. All of them were
teaching.
Mr. Schine. Is he still there?
Mr. Sussman. This man was in the registrar's office. He was
not a teacher.
Mr. Schine. And his job was to more or less run the thing
from the top?
Mr. Sussman. No, I wouldn't say that. He didn't run it. He
gave advice.
Mr. Schine. Who did run it. Where did the orders come from?
Mr. Sussman. The directives came from the next higher
authority. Yes, that is true.
Mr. Schine. What was the next higher authority?
Mr. Sussman. It varied at different times. At one time it
was the County Student Commission, I believe. It wasn't
commission. Committee, I guess. County Student Committee.
Mr. Schine. Who was on that committee?
Mr. Sussman. The one I remember was Ruth Watt. I believe
she died a long time ago.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall that it was Julius Rosenberg who
brought Coleman into the Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Was he already in there at the time you joined?
Mr. Sussman. Coleman, I think he came in afterwards.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any other names on the higher
authority?
Mr. Sussman. No, after I graduated for a short time I was
on the County Student Committee.
Mr. Schine. Anybody else on that? Can you give us their
names?
Mr. Sussman. I don't think it had any names.
Mr. Cohn. You made some mention of Reliz, Savitsky,
Pastorinsky--do you know whether any of those individuals work
for the government now?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether any of them ever worked for
the government?
Mr. Sussman. Savitsky worked for the Navy Yard in Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. Did you think he was a member of the Communist
party at the time he was at the Brooklyn Navy Yard?
Mr. Sussman. I guess I know that he was.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know what sort of work he did?
Mr. Sussman. He was some sort of technical clerk in the
stock room?
Mr. Cohn. How about Pastorinsky?
Mr. Sussman. He was an inspector. It could have been the
Signal Corps. I don't know. Some army group at the same time I
was inspector for naval materiel.
Mr. Cohn. Here in New York? An army group here in New York?
Mr. Sussman. No, I ran into him at the RCA plant in
Harrison, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think this was something having to do with
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sussman. It was inspector of a group similar to the
Inspector of naval materiels but army.
Mr. Cohn. Who was this Pastorinsky?
Mr. Sussman. Harry.
Mr. Cohn. How about Goldfield?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about Emmer? Do you know whether he worked
for the government?
Mr. Sussman. No. I don't.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you some questions about Coleman and
your knowledge of his membership in the Young Communist League.
Did you ever see him at meetings that you can specifically
remember?
Mr. Sussman. Not that I remember.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him at meetings of the Steinmetz
Club?
Mr. Sussman. That was the same thing.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him at meetings of a club
similar to that--Communist?
Mr. Sussman. Probably did. I can't recall that right now.
Mr. Cohn. You have stated that from your memory Coleman was
a member of the Young Communist League. Can you place him at
any meetings?
Mr. Sussman. Among other things, there were so many
meetings and so many other things.
Mr. Cohn. But you don't have definite recollection of his
being at meetings?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any recollection of personal
conversations which would place him in the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have recollection of Julius Rosenberg
including Coleman in conversations as a Communist or a Young
Communist League member?
Mr. Sussman. It is a feeling. I have a definite
recollection of a feeling that he was member of the Young
Communist League.
Mr. Cohn. How long?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe that it was very long because
I think he was an under-classman.
Mr. Cohn. You had only known him a year or so but you had
the feeling he belonged?
Mr. Sussman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. So you did see him in connection with some of
these activities?
Mr. Sussman. I must have seen him to carry that memory
fifteen years later. What I could do is pick his face out, at
least his face at that time.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen him in the last ten years?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Schine. Did most of those individuals go on to the
Communist party?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know what most of those individuals
did.
Mr. Cohn. Now, let me ask you this: Does that about exhaust
your recollection of the Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. There would be more.
Mr. Cohn. Let me throw some names at you. Harold Ducorsky?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Samuel Pomeranz?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe so.
Mr. Cohn. Samuel Lavine?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you associate him with the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What did he look like?
Mr. Sussman. Fat fellow, sort of stout with round jaws and,
I believe, he had black hair. I am not sure of that.
Mr. Cohn. Louie Volp?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Jack Okun?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe so.
Mr. Cohn. Jerome Zorwitz?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Jerome Corwin?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Brody?
Mr. Sussman. Not particularly.
Mr. Cohn. Herbert Bennet?
Mr. Sussman. He was not a member.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody named Goldberg?
Mr. Sussman. No, I don't think so. Lots of Goldbergs there.
Mr. Cohn. How about Benjamin Zuckerman?
Mr. Sussman. He was not also. I believe he associated with
some of the boys like Perl.
Mr. Cohn. Was his name mentioned?
Mr. Sussman. No, you forgot Perl.
Mr. Cohn. Did you go on from the Young Communist League and
become a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Sussman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. What cell did you join?
Mr. Sussman. Well, I am told number 16B.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the industrial section of the Communist
party?
Mr. Sussman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Who were some of the people?
Mr. Sussman. Well, Barr, Sarant, Schoiket, Savitsky,
Rosenberg, Sol Tenenbaum.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever work for the government?
Mr. Sussman. That is a question. I don't know. I think he
did.
Mr. Cohn. Who else?
Mr. Sussman. There was some young fellow named Arthur, I
think, something or other.
Mr. Cohn. How long did you remain in section 16B?
Mr. Sussman. Until January or February of 1944.
Mr. Cohn. Were you transferred to some other section?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, Sunnyside Queens.
Mr. Cohn. Who was in that section?
Mr. Sussman. In Sunnyside?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Sussman. Gee, I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Any of these CCNY people?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody who worked for the government?
Mr. Sussman. Not that I know of.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody connected with the names thrown at you?
Mr. Sussman. Not that I know of.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you in that section?
Mr. Sussman. Until January 1945. I took a transfer but I
didn't get there until three or four months later. When I got
there, it was CPA, Communist Political Association, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. What happened in 1945?
Mr. Sussman. We resigned, my wife and I.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Schine. We are very much interested, of course, in
knowing the names of individuals who were connected or are
connected with the Communist movement who are working currently
for the United States government, and if you try to think about
this and remember some of the names it would be very helpful.
Mr. Sussman. I can't if I don't know anything about them.
This was years ago, and I wouldn't know among other things
whether they are working for the government.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Schine. We will certainly appreciate your cooperation
and help. If you think of some of the names, it will be of even
greater value to us.
[Off-record discussion.]
STATEMENT OF LOUIS LEO KAPLAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
SYLVESTER S. GARFIELD)
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name for the record,
please?
Mr. Kaplan. Louis Leo Kaplan.
Mr. Schine. Will your counsel please give his name?
Mr. Garfield. Sylvester S. Garfield.
Mr. Schine. And the name of your firm?
Mr. Garfield. Gross, Garfield, Redbank, 29 Mechanic Street,
Redbank, New Jersey.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell your last name?
Mr. Garfield. G-a-r-f-i-e-l-d.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Kaplan, what is your current occupation?
Mr. Kaplan. I have been suspended from the Signal Corps
Engineering Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. When were you suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. The 20th at about 1:20 in the afternoon.
Mr. Schine. 1953?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
Mr. Schine. How long had you been employed there?
Mr. Kaplan. Eleven and one half years, since April 1942.
Mr. Schine. What department.
Mr. Kaplan. Thermionics Branch.
Mr. Schine. Could you tell us briefly what your duties
consist of?
Mr. Kaplan. Group leader of three groups, one mechanic
group, one group specializing in planar iron tubes. The other
group did what amounted to qualification approval testing of
receiving tubes.
Mr. Schine. Was this classified material?
Mr. Kaplan. Almost all of it was not.
Mr. Schine. But some of it was.
Mr. Kaplan. In the past year or so there has been some.
Mr. Schine. Were you cleared for classified work?
Mr. Kaplan. I was cleared up to secret.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Kaplan. Brooklyn College.
Mr. Schine. When did you first go to work for the
government?
Mr. Kaplan. April 1942.
Mr. Schine. For the Signal Corps?
Mr. Kaplan. Same position.
Mr. Schine. Before that?
Mr. Kaplan. Silver Holloware.
Mr. Schine. Now, what was your position there?
Mr. Kaplan. Supervisor of the assembly department. We did a
certain amount of electrical engineering and some safety work.
A generalized story.
Mr. Schine. Have you any ideas as to why you were
suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us why?
Mr. Kaplan. I believe I have been confused with another
Louis Kaplan whose wife's name is identical to my wife's and
who has been plagued with me since 1942.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about this other Louis
Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. Do you want me to go back to 1942?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Kaplan. In 1942, approximately a week after I got to
the laboratories, I was notified that I was being transferred
to Dayton, Ohio. This happened three times. Each time the
orders were rescinded. I found at that time that there was
another Louis Kaplan employed by the laboratories.
Mr. Schine. Was this Signal Corps?
Mr. Kaplan. Signal Corps Engineering Laboratory. Oh, I
guess it was a year later the other Kaplan came back from
Dayton and picked up my check and gave me another fit; claimed
that the check had been cashed, a few odds and ends. Finally,
about a week later, I got it back again. At that time and up
until this time I have not been known as Louis Kaplan but Leo.
At that time, at the request of personnel group at the
laboratories I adopted Leo as my middle name.
About two years later, maybe a little bit longer than that,
there were rumblings about a lot of confusion between the
records of myself and this other chap and Major Gothney, then
branch chief of the Thermionics Branch and who had previously
been in personnel, requested the then personnel to go through
the records, 201 files, at which time they found six or eight
items misfiled between files. Each file having about six items
wrongly filed. The most outstanding error was that I had signed
both patent releases.
I understand that we are both products of the New York
school system and the handwriting is very much alike, although
I imagine it can be told apart by somebody who knows what he is
doing. We went through the files and cleared them up to my best
knowledge.
I'd say in late 1944, after I was married, I attempted to
get in a rooming house development in Ashbury Park. I was
refused the thing because there was not enough room. However,
in visiting friends of ours down there I did meet Mrs. Ruth
Kaplan, and found out my wife's name was the same.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever had any contact with the other
Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. None whatsoever. That was the sole contact I
had with him.
Mr. Schine. Did you know he was a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Kaplan. It has been--well, let's put it this way: He
has published a number of things in the Ashbury Park Press,
letters to the editor, and they definitely had a flavor of
communism.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever save any of these letters to the
editor?
Mr. Kaplan. No, but I checked with the Ashbury Park Press
and they have the originals all on file with them at the
request of the FBI. I have been, I wouldn't say accused, that I
was writing these particular letters and in discussing this
with Wayne McMurray, who happens to be the editor of the
Ashbury Park Press, he promised me he would always put in the
address of this individual when he published anything. Mr.
McMurray offered to put a scribe in the newspaper, which at the
request of the commanding officer at Fort Monmouth I didn't do,
that there were two Kaplans. I tried to remain as anonymous as
possible, realizing I had a position in the laboratory of some
trust.
Mr. Schine. Where did you meet Mrs. Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. I met her in Washington Village.
Mr. Schine. Whose apartment?
Mr. Kaplan. Abraham Lapato's apartment. I don't know what
the number was at the time. It was right next to the Kaplans.
Mr. Schine. They lived right next to the Kaplans. Were they
good friends?
Mr. Kaplan. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Do you recall the names of individuals who Mrs.
Kaplan was very friendly with?
Mr. Kaplan. I don't know. I never met him. I know he had a
brother-in-law in the laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What was his brother-in-law's name?
Mr. Kaplan. I am sorry. I am awfully bad at names.
Mr. Schine. Could you find out that name?
Mr. Kaplan. I am sure I can.
Mr. Schine. Would you try and do that for us?
Mr. Kaplan. How could I get the information to you?
Mr. Schine. When do you think you can have the information?
Mr. Kaplan. I can tell you right now what happened--give
you the remainder of the story and that will include the other
chap.
In 1947 I learned that I was being investigated very
thoroughly by Army G-2. A Captain Freedman was checking every
one of the references that I had given until he finally covered
all of my acquaintances. It seems as if the primary objective
was after information about my wife more so than they were
about me. There were many of my friends who had not met my
wife. We were married after I left New York and they supplied
as much as they could. I knew that I was being investigated.
However, the thing seemed to have died out and I heard nothing
more about it.
One day I was discussing this thing with a friend in the
cafeteria, a Lt. Art Skinner, now back at the laboratory, then
adjutant, and he kidded me about not telling the whole story. I
said, ``What is the whole story?'' He said, ``How you were
canned.'' I said, ``What is the rest of the story?'' I got
worried. I said, ``What is behind this?'' An order had come
through at the close of the investigation to let Louis Kaplan
go, but the other Louis Kaplan who worked at the time in the
Standards Agency, in the meantime had resigned, and being the
only Louis Kaplan, I was supposedly let go. However, Lt.
Skinner discussed it with army G-2 and the orders were
rescinded.
At that time the brother-in-law, who was a mathematician,
was let go from the service. I am trying to think what group he
was in. He was----
Mr. Schine. He was working for Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Kaplan. He was in the agency and let go at that time.
Since 1947 I have had the shirt kidded off me about Lou
Kaplan, not realizing I lived in Belmore. I have lived in
Belmore except for a period of nine months since I came to the
laboratory, since October of 1942. I have lived in Belmore
since then and no where else.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any other reason why you might
have been suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. Honestly, no.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any organizations you have
been affiliated with?
Mr. Kaplan. I have never joined any organization I
considered subversive. I consider myself a violent anti-
Communist. I have argued with people until I have been blue in
the face. That was before I came to the laboratory.
Mr. Schine. You never subscribed to any petitions?
Mr. Kaplan. I never signed any petitions, Oxford Pledge,
Stockholm Pledge or anything of that sort. Never went along
with them. Never had any feeling for them.
Mr. Schine. Did your wife ever have any connection?
Mr. Kaplan. No, my wife is an extreme homebody. She worked
for the Universal Camera Company before the war. That was her
first and last job.
Mr. Schine. Does she have any relatives who are Communists?
Mr. Kaplan. None she knows of.
Mr. Schine. Any Communist connections?
Mr. Kaplan. None we know of.
Mr. Schine. She never belonged to any subversive
organizations?
Mr. Kaplan. None whatsoever. She is not a joiner except
religious organizations.
Mr. Schine. We certainly appreciate your coming over. You
are going to give us the name of the brother-in-law of the
other Kaplan.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't it Sokel?
Mr. Kaplan. Sokel.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever known any Communists?
Mr. Kaplan. Back in 1937, I don't remember the chaps name.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Kaplan. No.
Mr. Cohn. Has your wife?
Mr. Kaplan. No.
Mr. Cohn. No affiliation whatsoever with anything
Communistic?
Mr. Kaplan. I did know a Communist back in the place I
worked, in Continental Silver Company, now located at 68 33rd
Street in Brooklyn in the Terminal Building. They had a chap
working there. We had violent arguments. I will never forget
once I was coming back from an interview at the Ford Instrument
Company, wherein I was to be employed if everything worked out.
I was one of three, of course, as inspector for the navy. At
this point the interviewing officer, a navy officer and I
forget his name, asked me if I ever signed the Oxford Pledge in
college. I came back and mentioned this to that chap. I said,
``I am sure now you can't get a job with the government. Didn't
you sign the Oxford Pledge?'' He said he never signed it. I
said, ``Well, didn't you take it around to be signed?'' He
started to laugh and it never went any further. That was the
other fellow. This was one example. He and I were continuously
in arguments. After the place unionized there was a question of
all supervisor going into the union. They didn't want me. He
and his brother-in-law were afraid of me.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name? The one that was a Communist?
Mr. Kaplan. Harry. Again I say my memory on names is very
poor. He worked in this company from 1938, approximately, and
there there after I left for awhile. In 1942, I left there and
came right with the company.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Kaplan, of course our committee is
interested in obtaining information on government departments
and agencies' efficiency, that means efficiency in both
directions. Therefore, we would be just as much concerned with
the firing of a capable person unjustly as we would be
interested in the retention of one who was a security risk.
Mr. Kaplan. If you want to build some morale, check my case
rapidly. I think it will help considerably.
Mr. Schine. You have our assurance that we will get Mr.
Adams, counselor to the Department of Army, to check on this
matter and it is going to be resolved very quickly.
Mr. Kaplan. I met Mrs. Kaplan not in the home but outside
the home of Lapato.
Mr. Cohn. At that time the Communist Louis Kaplan lived
next door?
Mr. Kaplan. That is right. Mr. Lapato and I worked
together. We worked together for ten years.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any Communists at Fort Monmouth now?
Mr. Kaplan. I can assure you if I had, I'd be the first to
come in here and tell you about it.
Mr. Cohn. You do not?
Mr. Kaplan. Definitely not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any contact with the other
Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. Never.
Mr. Cohn. How about the other Mrs. Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. The answer to that you have.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kaplan. Mr. Cohn, I feel a whole lot better right now.
If you need me again----
Mr. Schine. Let the record show that Mr. Cohn will preside
for the rest of the afternoon because I have to talk to some
witnesses out of the hearing room.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
STATEMENT OF CARL GREENBLUM
Mr. Cohn. Is there anything you told us the last time you
want to add to first?
Mr. Greenblum. Well, when I was here the last time I was in
a somewhat distressed state.
Mr. Cohn. What I wondered is this: Have you recalled, with
the help of the FBI any names you could not recall when down
here the last time?
Mr. Greenblum. I have gone over this thing in great detail
with the FBI. I have gone into a tremendous amount of detail
with them. I can't think, at the moment, of any additional
information.
Mr. Cohn. How about these people like Fred, Lucille, Leo?
Mr. Greenblum. I haven't been able to place them.
Mr. Cohn. Who do you recall being present in the restaurant
in New York where Levitsky took you?
Mr. Greenblum. Well, with great assuredness I recall Perl.
I am fairly certain that he was there.
Mr. Cohn. How about the two other couples? How about Barr?
and Sarant?
Mr. Greenblum. After thinking it over, I doubt if Barr was.
I discussed the timing of this thing with the FBI and they seem
to think Barr was probably not there.
[Off-record discussion.]
STATEMENT OF SHERROD EAST
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your name for the record?
Mr. East. Sherrod East.
Mr. Cohn. And where do you live, Mr. East?
Mr. East. Falls Church, Virginia, 316 East Greenway
Boulevard.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mr. East. I am by profession an archivist, Chief
Departmental Records Branch of the Adjutant General's Office.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you stationed?
Mr. East. Alexandria, Virginia.
Mr. Cohn. How many men do you have working under you?
Mr. East. One hundred and forty-six civilians and seventeen
military detail. The military doesn't work for civilians except
special circumstances.
Mr. Cohn. What is your salary?
Mr. East. GS-16, $9,600.00 a year.
Mr. Cohn. That is gross?
Mr. East. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
employed with the Department of the Army?
Mr. East. Ten years. As of December 1 it will be ten years
exactly.
Mr. Cohn. What positions have you held in the Department of
the Army?
Mr. East. I was hired in December, 1943, from National
Archives----
Mr. Cohn. Who got you the job?
Mr. East. I don't know that anybody got me my job. I was
hired, I presume----
Mr. Cohn. Who hired you?
Mr. East. Well, the chief of the branch into which I was
hired was then Hugh M. Flick.
Mr. Cohn. Whom did you see about getting the job?
Mr. East. Well, they came, to me.
Mr. Cohn. Who?
Mr. East. Captain Flick.
Mr. Cohn. Did he come to you cold?
Mr. East. No; he knew of me by reputation. He had known of
me before I came in the army as an archivist for the State of
New York. Also, another member of National Archives staff who
had gone into the army records program knew me.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been an archivist during your entire
period with the army?
Mr. East. During my entire period with the army I have been
in work that calls for that MOS, as we would say in the
military.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any dealings with the loyalty
board? \6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\6\ A memorandum regarding Sherrod East, from Thomas W. LaVenia to
Francis P. Carr, October 30, 1953, stated:
Subject is a member of the Greenbelt Housing Association and the
Greenbelt Health Association, the latter has been found to be
Communist-dominated. He was instrumental in the appointment of Dr.
Samuel Berenberg as a member of the Board of the Health Association.
The Dr. is a known Communist sympathizer and is reported to be a member
of the Communist party. The Dr. also had Communist literature in his
home.
Subject is a close associate of Abraham Chasanow, a member of the
National Lawyers Guild who was suspended on July 30, 1953, from his
position as Director of the District Control Office at the U.S. Navy
Hydrographic Office as a result of security charges. Subject is also a
close friend and former co-employee of Thurman Wilkens, a former War
Department employee who was dropped from the rolls as a security risk
because he was an associate of Samuel Witzcak, who was mentioned as a
member of the Canadian Spy Ring on the atomic bomb. Subject stated in
the presence of witnesses that Witzcak should have fought the charges
against him because he saw nothing wrong in it. In 1941-1942 subject
had a lawn party at his home to raise funds for the Spanish Loyalists.
It is suggested that subject be asked if he was an associate of and
friendly with Max H. Salzman who resigned July 31, 1953, from the U.S.
Navy Hydrographic Office while under charges involving security.
Subject is a member of the Panel from which the Security Screening
Board of the Department of the Army is drawn. He has for several years
sat on that board until very recently when he was not called up from
the Panel.
The derogatory information contained in this memorandum is known to
G-2 and is part of the subject's official file. None of this derogatory
information was made known to the Secretary of the Army. The
appointment to the Panel and to the board is made by the Secretary of
the Army.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In what respect?
Mr. East. In February of 1952 I was informed that I had
been chosen to be representative of my agency on the loyalty
screening board panel. I received, in April 1952, notification
of my designation as a member of the loyalty screening board
panel, who is designated by the secretary of the army.
Mr. Cohn. 1952?
Mr. East. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have access to classified material?
Mr. East. Have I ever had? Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, for how long a period of time did you serve
in any capacity on the screening board?
Mr. East. From April 1952 until, I think, the last panel I
sat on was along in February or March of 1953. I have not sat
on a panel since February or March 1953.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been eligible to sit on the panel since
that time?
Mr. East. I have never been informed that I was not still a
member of the screening panel.
Mr. Cohn. You have not been designated to sit on any
specific----
Mr. East. But I have not been called on a panel, no, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What are the general term or duties of this
loyalty screening board?
Mr. East. Well, the loyalty screening board sitting as a
panel considers cases referred to them through channels. They
make recommendations to the secretary of the army as to the
apparent justification for preferring charges or not preferring
charges.
Mr. Cohn. Where does the board get its information from?
Mr. East. Different armies. First Army, Second Army--I am
assuming this is all right to speak on procedural matters.
Mr. Adams. I see no reason why not.
Mr. Cohn. Where do they get the information?
Mr. East. The information is in the form of investigative
reports prepared by investigative agencies, and they are
forwarded with recommendations of the echelons through which
the recommendation----
Mr. Cohn. Where do these recommendations originate? Give us
a typical case. Where does a case start?
Mr. East. Well, a case could start at an installation, or a
case could start at higher echelons. If, I assume, information
came to higher echelons there was a reason.
Mr. Cohn. How would your board get a case? Where would it
come from?
Mr. East. As far as the panel, it comes from--it is
assigned by the permanent secretariat of the board, the loyalty
screening board. We didn't select cases. We were called
together and assigned to certain cases.
Mr. Cohn. How would the secretariat get the cases?
Mr. East. Those are referred through channels to the
secretary of the army's screening board.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, see if I am right; if a case
initiates at Fort Monmouth, of derogatory information, the
initial question is whether or not the secretary should suspend
the individual, or prefer charges----
Mr. East. The individual may already be suspended for that,
matter,
Mr. Cohn. In other words, he is already suspended or there
might be grounds on which to suspend him, and the files go to
the secretariat, who parcels them out to different panels. The
panel considers it and makes recommendations as to what action
the secretary of the army should take?
Mr. East. That is essentially right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you participate in any cases of employees in
the Army Signal Corps? I am not asking you names.
Mr. East. Well, I have participated in a number of
installations, and a number of agencies, and I believe that I
am precluded from going any further than that in answering a
question as to places of cases or not.
Mr. Cohn. I am not asking him to reveal individual cases. I
am only asking him if he has had any from the Signal Corps.
What do you think?
Mr. East. I have sat on panels that have considered cases
from a number of agencies and I believe I have handled cases
that originated in the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. Now, I will ask you this next question. I want to
ask you whether you recall names in the Signal Corps. I am not
going to ask you for names. Do you recall----
Mr. East. I would not be able to answer if I did recall. I
could assure you that if I were able to answer I do not recall
any names.
Mr. Cohn. Your recollection would have to be refreshed?
Mr. East. Yes, it certainly would. I would like to say in
these panels I sat on, I tried to give them everything I had
then. At least, I tried to make it a point not to retain
information as to specific cases or names.
Mr. Cohn. Now, during the entire time you have been in the
Department of Army you have had full clearance?
Mr. East. As far as I know, yes.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, Mr. East, I think this is a matter of
open regulation, what is the standard you used on the board in
making a recommendation to the secretary? Were you looking for
security risks, loyalty?
Mr. East. Well, I don't pretend to be a specialist in
procedure or any of this. I haven't sat on enough panels. I
suppose people doing this a lot longer than I--of course, there
are different types of cases involving loyalty cases, involving
security risks that don't involve loyalty.
Mr. Cohn. In a case involving a security risk, the
objective of the panel is to look over the file and to make a
determination as to whether or not that individual, based on
his activities, associates, the sum total of it, is or is not a
security risk?
Mr. East. We are briefed by the permanent secretariat of
the board to determine what category of cases we are to handle.
We are supposed to know, of course, by the information or
material given to us to study what category the case falls
into. If it is a security case, we evaluate the facts,
activities of the individual, background, associates and decide
whether or not he is a security risk, depending on what he
does, what degree of classified matter he may handle, etc. And
we, of course, have to start off with the proposition that if
he is found to be a security risk he should not be employed in
any job.
Mr. Cohn. In any job where he could do damage?
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Of course, and I suppose in loyalty cases, the
test in recent years, if there is reasonable doubt as to the
loyalty of an individual, he is not to be employed by the army
at all.
Mr. East. That is right. I would like to make a point. I
have handled no cases since the change in procedure, if I
remember, as of May of this year when there was a little change
I am not familiar with.
Mr. Cohn. You mean since the Eisenhower directive?
Mr. East. I have not been on any board since.
Mr. Cohn. Have you, yourself, ever been connected with
Greenbelt Housing or Health Association?
Mr. East. Those are two organizations.
Mr. Cohn. Let's take Greenbelt Health?
Mr. East. Yes, I was at one time a member of the board of
directors of the Greenbelt Health Association and a member of
it.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. East. I was a member of that organization from about
1948 when it was formed, shortly after the town of Greenbelt
was opened, until about 1942 or 1943 during the war. I severed
my connection with it, withdrew my membership from it.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have any connection with the Greenbelt
Housing Association?
Mr. East. I was one of the organizers of the Greenbelt
Housing Association and served on the board of directors of the
Greenbelt Mutual Home Owner's Corporation, which eventually
bought the town of Greenbelt.
However, that took place after I left the community. From
1945 I worked quite diligently in the community to try to
effect the sale of the community to a Veteran Resident
Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. Now, was this Greenbelt Health Association under
Communist domination or heavily infiltrated by Communists?
Mr. East. I don't think so. I never thought so.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard that alleged?
Mr. East. Not specifically, no, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard that alleged unspecifically?
Mr. East. Well, I know that there were some people perhaps
connected with the health association at one time who some
people have since assumed--the thing, I thought, was never
Communist dominated. That was a consumer-controlled health
organization.
Now, there was a doctor perhaps connected with the
association at one time who I can understand, looking back,
might have been considered to be a sympathizer. I don't think
he was a Communist. I think, looking back now, that his wife
may have been but at the time there was certainly no----
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a Dr. Samuel Berenberg?
Mr. East. Yes, sir. He is the doctor I referred to.
Mr. Cohn. What is his wife's name?
Mr. East. His wife's name, I believe, was Frederica Martin
Berenberg.
Mr. Cohn. Was Dr. Berenberg a pretty well-known Communist
sympathizer?
Mr. East. As I say, looking back I think he was.
Mr. Cohn. What was his connection with the health
association?
Mr. East. He was one of the three doctors hired by the
association to practice medicine.
Mr. Cohn. Did you in your official capacity have anything
to do with his employment?
Mr. East. Not originally. It does happen I was on the
board. He was in Greenbelt two different times. It does happen
I was on the board when he was hired the second time. He had
left the first time to go to the Pribilof Islands to work for
the Department of Interior. When the war came on the Pribilofs
were evacuated, I believe, and Greenbelt was without a
physician. We were very anxious to get one doctor and they were
very scarce. He was available and I was on the board that hired
him back.
Mr. Cohn. Who contacted him and asked him to come back?
Mr. East. I don't know whether I had a hand in it or not. I
may well have. I can't answer specifically yes or no. I don't
remember what my official position was but I think I was
president, therefore, I may well have written or answered a
letter which he wrote us letting us know he was available.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. East, did you know at that time that Dr.
Berenberg was a Communist?
Mr. East. I certainly did not.
Mr. Cohn. Had he ever said anything to lead you to believe
he was?
Mr. East. Only to this extent. He left about 1939 and up
until that time it had never entered my head that he was a
Communist sympathizer. I observed later that his attitude
towards the war was quite different after he came back from the
Pribilofs.
Mr. Cohn. During the Hitler-Stalin Pact he was not as
anxious to have the United States go in?
Mr. East. That is my distinct impression, yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know he was circulating Communist
literature?
Mr. East. He never circulated any to me. He would have
known, I hope, better.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Abraham
Chasanow?
Mr. East. Yes, sir. I know him quite well. That is, I know
him quite well in that both of us lived twelve or thirteen
years in the same community and worked for the same
organizations.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him socially?
Mr. East. Casually. We were not close friends in the sense
that our families saw each other frequently or any thing of
that kind.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever in his home?
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he ever in yours?
Mr. East. Yes, sir. I am sure he has been over a period of
thirteen years but I am sure not frequently.
Mr. Cohn. When did you see Mr. Chasanow last, by the way?
Mr. East. As far as I know I have not seen him since I
moved from Greenbelt in June of 1951.
Mr. Cohn. Have you spoken with him?
Mr. East. I have not talked to him on the phone or
otherwise since then as far as I know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. East. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist sympathizer?
Mr. East. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In any of your discussions with him----
Mr. East. Never by any slight indication, act or word.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any members of the National Lawyer's
Guild?
Mr. East. No, sir. I knew he was a lawyer. I don't know
what fraternal or legal organizations he might have belonged
to.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Thermond
Wilkens?
Mr. East. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you know Mr. Wilkens?
Mr. East. I knew Mr. Wilkens quite well.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him socially?
Mr. East. Only casually.
Mr. Cohn. You both worked together at the War Department?
Mr. East. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever in his home?
Mr. East. No, sir. He is a bachelor and he didn't have a
home. He only had a room.
Mr. Cohn. Was he ever in your home?
Mr. East. Yes. Not frequently, however.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you ever know a man by the name of
Samuel Witzcak?
Mr. East. Never.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that Wilkens knew him?
Mr. East. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. There came a time when you found out?
Mr. East. I have heard the name mentioned since Mr. Wilkens
left the War Department in conversations with security officers
in the department.
Mr. Cohn. You have been advised of the fact that Mr.
Witzcak was a member of the Canadian atomic spy ring?
Mr. East. I learned that for the first time.
Mr. Cohn. I assume you have been advised he was a close
associate of Mr. Wilkens?
Mr. East. I was advised of that within the last six months,
yes, sir. I never knew it before that time.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Wilkens was suspended was he not?
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did he discuss his suspension with you?
Mr. East. I was, of course--in the sense that I was working
in the same office.
Mr. Cohn. When was this?
Mr. East. It was either in late 1947 or prior to June of
1948. In that six months period.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever advise him that he should fight the
suspension because there was nothing wrong with him having
associated with Witzcak?
Mr. East. Bear in mind that the name Witzcak was never
known to me until six months ago--in the last six months. At
the time Mr. Wilkens was suspended, I, of course, was aware of
the published regulations informing employees of their rights
in such matters, and knowing nothing whatsoever about the case,
I was amazed that he did not take advantage of it, at least
insofar as I know. That is why, I presume, he did not take
advantage of his privilege of appeal of his separation.
Mr. Cohn. You knew that the grounds for his suspension was
his close association with----
Mr. East. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Why did you think he was suspended?
Mr. East. I understand that he had been during the war
approached by an agent and that he did not report the approach.
That is what he told me about it.
I would like to make it clear that insofar as Wilkens is
concerned, it is apparent now that Wilkens knew what the
trouble was he was in but the rest of us did not. He knew how
deep he was in; the rest of us did not, and he deliberately
avoided telling us or bringing any of us into it, probably out
of a feeling that he did not want any of us to be implicated,
so that he told me very little and I certainly did not inquire,
did not want to know any more about it than he was willing to
tell. The fact that he was suspended and he did not choose to
avail himself of his prerogatives, I did not understand why
that was.
Mr. Cohn. Getting back a minute to the doctor, when was it
the doctor went back to Greenbelt? When did you re-employ Dr.
Berenberg at Greenbelt?
Mr. East. Well, it must have been fairly early in 1942, to
the best of my recollection.
Mr. Cohn. How long did he remain?
Mr. East. He did not remain very long. He was not popular.
Mr. Cohn. About how long?
Mr. East. I really would almost hesitate to hazard a guess.
I would say less than a year. I just don't know whether it was
a little under or over.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have anything to do with his leaving?
Mr. East. I believe that I had resigned--no, I think I was
still on the board when he left. I didn't have anything to do
with his leaving in that I invited him to leave. He resigned of
his own free will, except we had one other physician at the
time and they did not get along and I assume that is one of the
reasons.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man by the name of Max Salzman?
Mr. East. Yes, sir, substantially the same way, the same
connection, the housing association in Greenbelt, as Chasanow.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that Salzman was a Communist or
Communist sympathizer?
Mr. East. No, sir. In no way, shape, manner, or form did I
ever suspect that he had any such leanings whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see Mr. Salzman?
Mr. East. I last saw Mr. Salzman in June of 1951.
Mr. Cohn. Had you known him socially?
Mr. East. Not even as much as I knew Chasanow.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you, yourself, ever give a lawn party
for the benefit of the Spanish Loyalists?
Mr. East. No, I did not.
I was living in a farm house instead of right in the town
of Greenbelt and I allowed my premises to be used by Mrs.
Berenberg to hold such a benefit for Spanish refugees. She had
been a nurse with the Spanish Loyalists.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. East. I am afraid I can't fix the date exactly. I think
that it was sometime in 1949 or 1950 but I don't know for sure.
Mr. Cohn. Did you attend that party?
Mr. East. Well, I didn't attend as a guest but I was there
since I allowed it to be held on my premises.
Mr. Cohn. Under the auspices of what organization?
Mr. East. I did not know it was held under the auspices of
any organization and still don't if it was. She simply said she
would like to do something, having been in Spain, she said she
would like to do something for the Spanish refugees. As far as
I knew it was a personal thing with her.
Mr. Cohn. Now, let me ask you this, Mr. East. Based on the
facts we have gone over here in connection with your
appointment of Dr. Berenberg and your associations with other
people, would you have considered yourself a good security
risk?
Mr. East. I most certainly would have then and I would now.
Mr. Cohn. In connection with some of the cases you passed
on on the loyalty board--I am not asking you for any names or
about any individuals, but in what percentage of cases you
passed on where the allegation was Communist activities did you
recommend suspension?
Mr. East. I don't know. I mean Communist activities is a
very broad term. I have no idea but all I know is that I acted
on some cases where we did recommend some suspensions. I acted
on a greater number where I did not recommend suspension. When
I say I acted, I acted as a member of the panel.
Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a matter of fact that you recommended
against suspension in the vast majority of cases?
Mr. East. [To Mr. Adams] Well, is that legitimate?
Mr. Cohn. Mr. East, taking everything you say here at face
value today, I think it still might suggest that one who was
fooled as you were by Communist and Communist sympathizers
might not be in a position to evaluate these cases with
understanding and perspicacity. For instance, suppose the case
of Dr. Berenberg and Mrs. Berenberg had come up. They
apparently fooled you once, you according to your own statement
and you might have an unfortunate result if those and other
people were in sensitive positions.
Mr. East. They did not fool me in the sense you are using
the term. Secondly, Berenberg was hired as a doctor. He was a
good one no matter what his political complexion was then, now
or ever was, and his position as a doctor was certainly not a
sensitive position, and I resent, if I may say so, the
implication that I can't judge when a man's political
complexion, if political is the right word, has a bearing on
his duties.
As I say, I saw, and I said this earlier in the testimony,
I saw the change in Berenberg after the attack of Germany was
abandoned, of the Russian-German pact and attack on Russia. As
a matter of fact, I used to bait the man. That was one of the
reasons he would never consider giving me any literature, if he
was passing out literature. He knew dag-gum well where I stood.
Mr. Cohn. Are you saying now that in exercising your
position you knowingly employed a Communist doctor?
Mr. East. One, I did not know and do not know now is a
Communist. I recognized a sympathy there and I also made it
quite clear that the town needed a doctor and one of the
reasons I resigned from the board was that I didn't want the
town to go without a doctor. It might have had I stayed on the
board. It so happened that the doctor who was left after
Berenberg left simply didn't want to work in a consumer health
organization. He wanted a private practice and I had a trust,
as a matter of fact, to live up to because the government had
granted a monopoly of medical practice in Greenbelt to the
Greenbelt Health Association and I could not allow an
individual doctor to make use of that in setting himself up in
private practice in a monopoly situation. In that case I had a
responsibility not only to the community but I had a
responsibility to the government.
Mr. Cohn. Did you disclose to the community and the
government your knowledge of the Communist sympathies of this
Dr. Berenberg?
Mr. East. They were not an issue at the time. If that
situation were repeated today, it would be different, I think,
than it was at that time. The fact remains that Berenberg's
feelings or views towards Russia or communism were not a factor
as far as his medical practice in Greenbelt was concerned.
Mr. Cohn. Were there a good many government employees
living at Greenbelt?
Mr. East. There always has been a high percentage.
Mr. Cohn. And a lot of them would be in sensitive
positions? Would you agree on that?
Mr. East. Greenbelt is a low-income community. I don't know
how sensitive their positions were. I think we might assume
taking that large a group of government employees you would
have a good many in sensitive positions, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Would you note on the record that following the
off-record discussion I suggested to Mr. Adams and to Mr. East
in regard to the information in the possession of the committee
that in the overwhelming majority of cases passed on by Mr.
East as a member of the secretary's screening board, in an
overwhelming majority of cases where charges were Communist
activity or Communist affiliation Mr. East had voted against
suspension. I asked Mr. East to confirm that information for us
and he raised the point concerning the regulations which Mr.
Adams supported, at least to the extent that he felt the matter
should be put to the secretary first to determine whether or
not it would be violative of the executive order, the Truman
blackout order, protecting various steps of their procedure.
Mr. East stated as far as he was concerned he would personally
be perfectly willing to have the committee examine each one of
the cases which he passed on and his vote.
Mr. East. I didn't quite say it that way. I said I was
perfectly willing to give the committee an answer to the
question you raised.
Mr. Cohn. Would you be willing to go further and discuss
individual cases?
Mr. East. I am precluded----
Mr. Cohn. I am assuming the secretary would be willing to
waive that.
Mr. East. If the secretary is willing, I'd love to come in
and talk about each case to show how right I was.
Mr. Adams. The secretary will not permit this individual or
any other individual who is a member of the screening board or
a hearing board or appeals board to discuss anything about any
case or his pattern of decision on any cases because the
secretary not only has the obligation to protect the loyalty
and security procedures and program but to protect the rights
of each individual whose case was considered, so this
individual, in my opinion, has no right to waive that
responsibility.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Cohn. On the record, as far as that is concerned, I
think the attitude of the committee on the rights of
individuals is crystal clear as was evidenced by an individual
case which took place this afternoon when the committee joined
with Mr. Adams and asked the reinstatement of an individual
where it might have been a case of mistaken identity.
I will further say that this committee has been confronted
with evidence of suspensions of a number of people with long
records of Communist activities and affiliation and the
reversal of that suspension by the screening board and panel
that Mr. East sat on, and combining that with Mr. East's
testimony here today concerning his knowingly or unknowingly,
and the record speaks for itself, taking answers at face value,
his connection with people who were Communist sympathizers or
Communists, as the case might be, I think in view of that that
the American people are entitled to protection in this matter
because some of these individuals concerned might still be in
positions by virtue of Mr. East's vote in their cases, and I
think this is a grave abuse of the intent of these directives
when an issue such as this is raised.
I am certainly going to recommend to the committee, and Mr.
Carr just told me he agrees with me on that, that the committee
press its position in regard to this situation.
Mr. Adams. I think this is a matter of protecting the
integrity of the whole loyalty system, the individuals and the
program.
Mr. East. Of course, I am very much disturbed that anyone
would take this situation that developed in the community which
I lived and tie it together with my supposed actions on the
loyalty screening board, and assume from that that I have a
softness for Communists or Communist activities or Communist
affiliated organizations.
In view of the statement you have made, I wish to make a
categorical statement now that I do not so consider myself, and
that disturbs me a great deal as you can well appreciate. I
consider myself qualified, otherwise I would not have accepted
the responsibility. I know, even with all the protection the
secretary is giving us, in these matters, I know a man is only
asking for trouble when he accepts this kind of extraneous
duty. All of us on these loyalty boards have our hands full
doing the job for which we are being paid and it is out of a
sense of duty that we are willing to accept these additional
responsibilities.
Mr. Cohn. Right. I might say on that score, Mr. East, I
understand your position. I think you can also understand the
committee's position. We have been confronted with a series of
cases, suspensions, and I have personally read the record where
the suspensions were upheld at various steps along the line,
and then the suspensions were reversed, recommended to the
secretary that they be reversed. I will say that the actions of
the screening board and some of its panels, each one of the
cases that I have read is something which defies explanation--
in cases where they recommended reinstatement.
Mr. East. Are you speaking in terms of the present
standards?
Mr. Cohn. I am speaking in terms of the standards under
which the case was reviewed. I am speaking of any standards
which ever existed. Cases where you directed reinstatement to
positions dealing with top secret material of people with
uncontroverted evidence in the record of Communist affiliation,
disloyalty to objectives of the United States government, and I
would certainly say, Mr. East, that you are certainly entitled
to any opinion you might want to have about anything.
If the information this committee has received concerning
the consistent pattern of your evaluation of individual's cases
is correct, and combine that with your willingness to appoint a
doctor with Communist sympathies in a community in which
resided government employees in sensitive positions and give
him free access to them and the opportunity to develop
acquaintances and abuse that position, if he sought to do so, I
think the matter is of the utmost importance to the committee
to get the facts.
I am hopeful that the secretary of the army, in fairness to
you and in fairness to us, will allow a thorough review of this
entire matter. Don't you think so, Frank?
Mr. Carr. I think so.
Mr. Cohn. I might say further, Mr. East, we have had a
situation where loyalty board and loyalty panels in other
government agencies have cleared people the FBI has furnished
incontrovertible evidence of Communist party membership and
when the people were called before this committee and question
about Communist activities claimed the Fifth Amendment. That
situation is very alarming. I think it is something that we
have to go into.
Mr. East. I say now that I think I acted properly on any
cases that came before me, and I thought so at the time the
case was before me on the basis of evidence present, and I--I
think that is sufficient on that. As I say, I have done the
best job I know how to do.
STATEMENT OF JACOB KAPLAN
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name for the record?
Mr. Kaplan. Jacob Kaplan.
Mr. Cohn. Are you presently employed at Monmouth?
Mr. Kaplan. I was until two weeks ago.
Mr. Cohn. Were you suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. I was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. Were you given a letter of charges?
Mr. Kaplan. I was given a letter of suspension with no
charges.
Mr. Cohn. What did they tell you?
Mr. Kaplan. That the charges would be submitted later,
twelve to fourteen days. They said the charges would be
submitted in twelve to fourteen days. I have not received that
as yet.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know of any reason why you were suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. I have not the remotest idea.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any Communist connections?
Mr. Kaplan. Never.
Mr. Cohn. Ever belonged to any Communist organizations?
Mr. Kaplan. Never in my life.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever associated with any Communists?
Mr. Kaplan. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you employed?
Mr. Kaplan. Countermeasures Branch at Evans Signal Corps,
assistant branch chief.
Mr. Cohn. Who is the branch chief?
Mr. Kaplan. Morris Kaiser.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man by the name of William
Saltzman?
Mr. Kaplan. No. I have heard of him. I don't know him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mr. William Johnstone Jones?
Mr. Kaplan. I don't know him either. I have heard of him.
Mr. Cohn. Barry Bernstein?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, I know Mr. Bernstein.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever a member of the American Veterans
Committee?
Mr. Kaplan. I am not a veteran and I didn't belong to any
veterans' organizations.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Great Books Club?
Mr. Kaplan. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mr. Bernstein socially?
Mr. Kaplan. Well, I know him to speak to.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been in his home?
Mr. Kaplan. Once. My daughter used to be friendly with his
daughter and I went to pick her up.
Mr. Cohn. You have never been known as Louie Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. No.
Mr. Cohn. Maybe they are suspending everybody with the name
of Kaplan.
Mr. Kaplan. That is what it seems like to me.
Mr. Cohn. That will be all for the time being, Mr. Kaplan.
STATEMENT OF JAMES P. SCOTT
Mr. Cohn. You are Mr. James P. Scott?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been suspended?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I have.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been given any reason?
Mr. Scott. No, I haven't.
Mr. Cohn. When was it effective?
Mr. Scott. October 27th.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had Communist connections of any
kind?
Mr. Scott. No, sir. I was never a Communist, not now, and
don't expect to be.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any front
organizations?
Mr. Scott. No, I haven't. I am of this opinion that there
was union down there and I believe that is----
Mr. Cohn. United Federal Workers of America?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
M. Cohn. Do you belong to that?
Mr. Scott. I belonged to that.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that was Communist dominated?
Mr. Scott. At the time I did not know it.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Marcel Ullmann.
Mr. Scott. Yes, I know him.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. Scott. Just more like an acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist?
Mr. Scott. I didn't know it at the time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Albert Sokel?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Scott. Not at that time.
Mr. Cohn. When did you find that out?
Mr. Scott. I suspected him of being a Communist about two
years after the union formed.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody else you suspected later of
being a Communist?
Mr. Scott. Joe Percoff.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
Mr. Scott. There was a fellow by the name of Kaplan.
Mr. Cohn. Louie Kaplan?
Mr. Scott. That is the name.
Mr. Cohn. Could you identify Louie Kaplan? Do you know what
he looks like?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen him today in the witness room?
Mr. Scott. No, I haven't seen him in years.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been in the witness room most of the
day?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I have.
Mr. Cohn. That will be all for the present, Mr. Scott.
STATEMENT OF BERNARD LEE
Mr. Cohn. Could we have your name, please?
Mr. Lee. Bernard Lee.
Mr. Cohn. Are you working at Monmouth, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee. No, I am not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever work there?
Mr. Lee. Yes, I have been suspended.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Lee. October 21st.
Mr. Cohn. Have you received the specifications yet?
Mr. Lee. The charges? No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know why you were suspended?
Mr. Lee. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any Communist
organizations?
Mr. Lee. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever associated with any Communists?
Mr. Lee. Inadvertently, perhaps.
Mr. Cohn. Which ones?
Mr. Lee. Unfortunately, I believe that my sister-in-law,
while I do not know whether she is a member, in my opinion has
followed those kind of ideas.
Mr. Cohn. What is her name?
Mr. Lee. Ruth Stein.
Mr. Cohn. What is her husband's name?
Mr. Lee. She is not married.
Mr. Cohn. She is your sister-in-law?
Mr. Lee. My wife's sister.
Mr. Cohn. Where does she live?
Mr. Lee. 1127 Grant Avenue, Bronx.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been friendly with her?
Mr. Lee. Friendly?
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see her?
Mr. Lee. Well, the last time I saw her was at a family
gathering. To say I am friendly isn't so. Occasionally we are
in the same household. That last occasion was sometime early in
September.
Mr. Cohn. How old is she?
Mr. Lee. About twenty-nine.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever been in your home?
Mr. Lee. Yes, she has been in my home.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been in hers?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. That is my mother-in-law's home.
Mr. Cohn. What leads you to think she is a Communist or
party line follower?
Mr. Lee. Why, over the years I have my own way of
determining who is a Communist. I think they are pretty obvious
people. For instance, who followed the Moscow-Berlin pact in my
opinion were Communists. I never was sure of the things which
caused me to think about it and really feel she was a loyal
follower. For a period she was working for a union in
Philadelphia, and I was distressed to find the union was one
which had acceded to the requirement for officially signing the
loyalty oath or whatever it was at that time. To me that meant
that the union was very deep Red.
Mr. Cohn. Have you worked on classified material?
Mr. Lee. Recently you mean or over my entire career with
the government?
Mr. Cohn. Let's say recently?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. It is necessary in my job to have access
to classified material.
Mr. Cohn. Does your wife think your sister-in-law is a
Communist?
Mr. Lee. [No answer.]
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever discussed it with your wife?
Mr. Lee. Not clearly that way. It is kind of a subtle
thing. Something I have to piece out myself. It hasn't come out
clearly on any occasions. What I hear about my sister-in-law
comes from what I hear from my wife.
Mr. Cohn. Does it distress your wife?
Mr. Lee. Yes, she is very distressed about the whole aspect
of it. It is a very distressing thing, unwholesome thing for a
girl to be doing.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Lee. Missoula School of Mines and Metallurgy.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Lee. I might know him. I am trying to think of what he
looks like.
Mr. Cohn. Harold Ducore?
Mr. Lee. I saw Harold Ducore and now realize I have seen
his face. I do not know him.
Mr. Cohn. Yamins?
Mr. Lee. I know him only in connection with his having been
at the laboratory. We have never had any occasion to even do
business together.
Mr. Cohn. Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Lee. Was Louis Kaplan the one in the witness room?
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any other Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Lee. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joe Levitsky?
Mr. Lee. That doesn't seem like anybody I know.
Mr. Cohn. You have not received the specifications?
Mr. Lee. I have not received any charges.
Mr. Cohn. That is all we want now.
Do you think your suspension is unjustified?
Mr. Lee. Well, I don't know what the rules are for
determining what a security risk is. I unfortunately cannot
help it if my sister-in-law is Red. I am sorry about it.
Mr. Cohn. Can't you avoid associating with her?
Mr. Lee. I have avoided associating with her for years.
Mr. Cohn. When was she last in your house?
Mr. Lee. It must have been over a year and a half ago or
two years.
Mr. Cohn. When did you form the opinion that she was a
Communist or a Communist sympathizer?
Mr. Lee. About the time that I learned the union to which
she belonged, to which she was shop stewardess, when I learned
they had not gone along with the requirements of signing a
loyalty oath.
Mr. Cohn. What does Ruth V. Stein do for a living?
Mr. Lee. Presently?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Lee. She is a librarian, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mr. Lee. I don't know the name of the company. The firm
specializes in medical type of advertising. They write
advertising copy for the drug business, etc.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever worked for the government?
Mr. Lee. Yes, she did.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mr. Lee. She worked in the library at Camp Cole.
Mr. Cohn. For the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Where is Camp Cole?
Mr. Lee. That is one of the three laboratories at Fort
Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. How long did she work there?
Mr. Lee. I guess she worked there from 1943, or possibly
1942, until the end of the war in Europe, whenever that was.
1945.
Mr. Cohn. Did you help her obtain employment there?
Mr. Lee. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Were you married at that time?
Mr. Lee. Yes, I was. If she used me for a reference, it is
unbeknowing to me.
Mr. Cohn. Thanks very much for coming in. We will let you
know if we need you again.
STATEMENT OF MELVIN M. MORRIS
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name?
Mr. Morris. Melvin M. Morris.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been suspended?
Mr. Morris. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Morris. 21 October.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Morris. I don't know. It says on here.
Mr. Cohn. Did you get any specifications?
Mr. Morris. Not yet.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any Communist
organizations or associated with any Communists?
Mr. Morris. Would you put that in two questions.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any Communist
organizations?
Mr. Morris. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever associated with any Communists?
Mr. Morris. I am not refusing to answer this question. I
use to work in the Department of Welfare as a social
investigator and one of my relief clients was a Communist and
tried to recruit me into the Communist party. At that time it
was illegal in the State of New York to give information on
relief clients.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name?
Mr. Morris. Elizabeth Ray. I don't want to violate----
Mr. Cohn. That is all right.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know her?
Mr. Morris. Strictly professional basis. At that time the
Unemployment Council, which was said to be a Communist
organization was in my territory. I had the territory around
Bleeker, Thompson Street. She lived on Thompson Street and the
Unemployment Council was right downstairs from where she lived.
I have no knowledge that the Unemployment Council was
Communist. She tried to recruit me.
Mr. Cohn. What made her think you would be susceptible?
Mr. Morris. I think she was nuts.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any sympathy for communism?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir, to some extent I have.
Mr. Cohn. What year was that?
Mr. Morris. I am not sure of the exact year it started. I
can sure tell you when it stopped. I can trace back. I got
completely disillusioned with the claims of the Communists at
the German-Soviet pact which would be about 1939. It would
probably be 1936 or 1937 somewhere around there.
Mr. Cohn. Did you attend any Communist meetings?
Mr. Morris. One time. At that time I was an active union
member of the union, Department of Welfare, and they invited me
to a Communist party meeting and offered me a Communist party
card. I took the card and gave some consideration as to whether
I should join or not. I thought this might be the answer to
some of my troubles. I finally decided against the idea,
although I still investigated and looked into it thoroughly--
read an awful lot.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a couple of years before the pact?
Mr. Morris. I would say so. I am a little hazy.
Mr. Cohn. And your complete break came at the time of the
pact?
Mr. Morris. I don't know about what you mean. I lost all
faith in any statements made by the Communist, Daily Worker, or
anything of that sort. Prior to that I was skeptical but that
was the final score.
Mr. Cohn. Have you known any Communists since that time?
Mr. Morris. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. Where have you worked at Monmouth most recently?
Mr. Morris. Headquarters.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever work at Evans?
Mr. Morris. One year. Applied Physics Branch.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever worked on any classified material?
Mr. Morris. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had a clearance for classified material?
Mr. Morris. I have had a clearance through secret.
Incidentally, these questions I have answered were
previously asked me sometime back and I answered them in the
same way.
Mr. Cohn. By whom were they asked?
Mr. Morris. I was given one of those interrogatories from
the intelligence division.
Mr. Cohn. On that basis, was a hearing held?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Morris. I have it here. I can refresh my memory.
January 1948.
Mr. Cohn. And you haven't heard anything since then?
Mr. Morris. I was told I was cleared. The FBI did a
complete field investigation on me, spent about two years on my
case. Everything I said was verified and I was cleared for
secret. I have never had occasion to have top secret clearance.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anything else you want to tell us?
Mr. Morris. I would like to know why I was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. The suspensions are not the territory of the
committee, but I would imagine that it is because of the facts
you have stated here.
Mr. Morris. Except I was cleared after investigation. That
is what I don't understand.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Morris. I met him one time at a conference and that is
the extent of my knowledge. I am quite sure that several years
ago I met him once.
Mr. Cohn. Harold Ducore?
Mr. Morris. I never saw him before today.
Mr. Cohn. Yamins?
Mr. Morris. Yamins worked across the hall from me in the
same division for the director of engineers for I'd say about a
year. I had considerable professional dealings with Mr. Yamins
at that time and since at MIT in my field of responsibility. He
had to send me considerable information from MIT. I had to get
in touch with him.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever consider that Yamins was connected
with the Communist party?
Mr. Morris. At this point, if you want my opinion, I would
say I haven't any belief that he is.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any colleagues at Monmouth that you
have associated with that you think might be Communist or
Communist sympathizers?
Mr. Lee. No, sir, if I did, I would have turned them in.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Morris. Not until today.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know another one?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Joe Levitsky?
Mr. Morris. Never heard the name.
Mr. Cohn. That is all. Thanks very much.
[The hearing adjourned at 5:00 p.m.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--None of the witnesses at the staff
interrogatory on November 2, 1953, William Johnstone Jones,
Murray Narell (1923-1991), Samuel Sack (1911-1977), Joseph
Bert, Raymond Delcamp (1922-1979), Leo Fary (1919-1975), or
Irving Stokes, testified in public session.]
----------
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: G. David Schine, chief consultant; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr, staff director; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel; James Juliana, investigator.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM JOHNSTONE JONES
Mr. Carr. Your name is William Johnstone Jones?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Carr. And you are currently employed where?
Mr. Jones. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Mr. Carr. In what capacity?
Mr. Jones. Engineer.
Mr. Carr. How long have you been there?
Mr. Jones. About a year and two or three months. I went to
work in August, I think it was August 1952.
Mr. Carr. Prior to that you worked where?
Mr. Jones. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Carr. And you were attached to Evans?
Mr. Jones. During the later portion. When I first went
there, I was assigned to Fort Hancock and then later
transferred down to Evans.
Mr. Carr. You now have clearance for classified work?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. Up to and including secret?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. Or top secret?
Mr. Jones. Secret.
Mr. Carr. Are you handling classified work at the present
time?
Mr. Jones. The particular equipment I am working on is
unclassified at the present time.
Mr. Carr. But you do, according to the job you are assigned
to, work on classified material? In other words, you have
clearance up to secret. At the present time you are working on
a particular assignment which is unclassified?
Mr. Jones. The equipment is unclassified. If we get data,
that may be classified. I am placed in a position that if we
get data, it will be classified and I am cleared to look at it.
Mr. Jones. May I ask you something?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Mr. Jones. I don't know your name.
Mr. Carr. Carr.
Mr. Jones. I'd like to know--what goes on my wife and my
mother and brother would like to know--if it is secret.
Mr. Carr. If you want to tell them, that is entirely up to
you. It is secret in the sense that we keep the identity of the
people who come here quiet. It is entirely up to you. This is
not a secret hearing. It is a staff interrogatory to develop
whether or not you should be called before the senators. If you
want to tell your wife or your family anything that goes on, it
will be entirely up to you.
Mr. Jones. Could I have a copy?
Mr. Carr. No, I am sorry you can't have a copy. However,
you can arrange to look at it at any time.
Mr. Jones. Can I take notes?
Mr. Carr. Certainly.
Mr. Jones. Just a matter of curiosity.
Mr. Carr. When did you first go to work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Jones. I went to work at Fort Monmouth. I was hired by
the Signal Corps in June 1941, June 24th, I think, to be exact.
Mr. Carr. In what capacity?
Mr. Jones. Junior engineer.
Mr. Carr. What college did you go to?
Mr. Jones. Tufts College, Massachusetts.
Mr. Carr. And did you go there right after college? Was
that your first job?
Mr. Jones. That was the only place I could get a job.
Mr. Carr. Now, you stayed at Monmouth until 1952?
Mr. Jones. I was employed by the Signal Corps, Fort
Monmouth until, don't hold me to the date, the 21st or
something 1951 when I was suspended and the 24th of June 1951,
I was released. I had an appeal hearing in September of 1951 in
Washington and I was reinstated in March 1952, and I stayed
there until it was indicated to me I had secret clearance and
then I resigned. I resigned in July, I think, of 1952.
Mr. Carr. Now, why were you suspended in 1951?
Mr. Jones. The charges were listed 1 and 2. The first
charge was, that I had--I am paraphrasing--permitted
conversations to take place in the section--I was section
chief--in which communism was praised and discussed; and that I
had permitted the Daily Worker to be circulated in that
section.
Mr. Carr. That is at the post?
Mr. Jones. At the post; right within the restricted area.
There are several individual buildings, outside buildings, and
one of the buildings housed the section of which I was chief.
That is charge 1. Charge 2 said when I was elected to the vice
presidency of my union, I had as supporters two reported or
reputed Communists. That was all.
Mr. Carr. Now, you were suspended in 1951 on those charges;
you took an appeal and you were subsequently reinstated.
Mr. Jones. I should go back further. In May 1950 or 1949, I
am not sure which date, I was placed on a restricted status.
All clearances were withdrawn up to restricted. I saw no
confidential or secret material. My name was placed on a list
in the library as one who couldn't receive documents that were
classified material. All mail coming to my section was
censured. That went on about a year, I think, maybe a year. It
was 1949 or 1950. I can determine that accurately.
I was placed in a restricted status and I could handle no
classified material. I was suspended in January. I was
presented formal charges in January. I had a hearing exactly
thirty days later in February. I had a hearing at Fort Monmouth
before a hearing board; and in January 1951, I was called down
and presented a letter dismissing me from government service.
It indicated there that I had a right to appeal.
I requested an appeal and it was granted and I was heard in
Washington, Pentagon Building, and in March of 1952 I was
called back and reinstated, but I didn't receive secret
clearance immediately. That is, my name was still on the
restricted list in the library and other places where this
material circulated. It was my intention to leave the
laboratory, leave the employee of the government. Subsequently,
I think it was maybe two or three weeks after I was cleared for
secret, I resigned and left the government service.
Mr. Carr. That is when you went to MIT?
Mr. Jones. Right after that, yes. I did some circulating
around and chose MIT. I had some other offers.
Mr. Carr. Now, these charges, the first charge that you had
allowed in your section the Daily Worker to be--I shouldn't say
distributed--at least circulated; that there had been Communist
statements made and such, what was your answer to that charge?
Mr. Jones. I denied the charge. That was charge 1. I
considered charge 1a the discussion and charge 1b, the Daily
Worker, and I denied in effect all of charge 1a and 1b.
Mr. Carr. In denying charge 1, was it a categorical denial
or did you state anything in your defense or concerning the
charges?
Mr. Jones. Well, the charges named no people, no time, no
place, no occasion. Also, all throughout the hearings and
procedures and questioning, they never said who brought the
Daily Worker in. I never heard of anyone being suspended for
bringing in the Daily Worker. It was just like, ``Who killed
Cock Robin?'' I saw him killed and I was a security risk. I
don't know who the interrogatory said brought the Daily Worker
in the section. They named nothing and all through the hearings
held in Fort Monmouth in February--It was a two day hearing;
started at 9:00 one morning and ended at 10:00 p.m. I came back
the next day and it started at 9:00 and ended at 5:00.
During the questioning period, it became apparent, I
assume, that the derogatory information was from people who had
worked in my section, but I presented witnesses in my behalf in
connection with charge 1a and 1b that were present. People that
were present in 1949 at the Signal Corps at Fort Monmouth came
to the hearing board and made statements that they had never
seen the Daily Worker in my section and had never heard any
conversations on communism or that the Communistic form of
government was considered superior.
Mr. Carr. Did you testify that you had never seen or heard
this activity either?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. What happened was after the
unfavorable decision in June, I wrote the commanding officer of
the Signal Corps and he sent me a list signed by the chief
intelligence agent of everyone who ever worked for me. I
started out with the first name and ran all the way through of
all the people in my section at the time the charges were
reported to have occurred, and I couldn't get affidavits from
four people.
One of them was Ross E. Edgett. He is working for the
Watson Air Force Laboratories up in Rome. He would tell me he
never saw the Daily Worker, knew I was not a pro-Communist or
Communist sympathizer, and didn't hear any conversations. When
I asked him for an affidavit he hemmed and hawed and said he
was still working in the government and he couldn't help me. I
finally made a telephone recording of a conversation and even
though I don't have an affidavit, I have a telephone recording
of a conversation. It had to be traced through to identify the
person and there was no question.
The second fellow was Edward Blackwell. Ed Blackwell, I had
considerable trouble within the section when he was assigned to
me. He reported as an engineer and I assumed he was an
engineer. I had given him tests at an engineering level, at
least the engineering level P-3, which he was. He was sent to
White Sands, etc., and consistently he failed to perform. I
tried every means possible to push him up and offered him
raises if he would work. He just claimed that I expected
performance too fast. He went to my supervisor and was finally
transferred out of my section. I spoke to him and he denied
having heard anything relative to the charges, denied anything
about charge 1 and he wouldn't know about charge 2. He didn't
want to be involved.
That left two others--James C. Chappel. James Chappel was a
radio mechanic who had been assigned to me in a reshifting of
the organization. He claimed when he went to work he had a bad
leg and he would be out frequently due to this bad leg. He had
a pass to bring his car onto the grounds, and further he said
he didn't want to work in the building; that he had rather work
outside in a shed. He worked there by himself. He worked for
about six months and then he asked for a transfer to his home
in Florida, to an agency which existed near his home in
Florida.
Within the period of his employment, I had two unfavorable
circumstances with him, not unfavorable, disagreeable. Once I
walked into the shed with a number of people and he was saying
something about Negroes. On the second occasion my twin
brother, who was an officer in the marines, Third Division,
came over to tell me goodbye. He was going to Guam. Everyone
was interested to know that I had an identical twin who could
pass for me. I introduced him to Chappel and he refused to
shake his hand.
I run a section. If a man doesn't like me because I am a
Negro, I have to rate him on his ability to prepare the jobs
assigned to him. I gave him a good or very good efficiency
rating, but when he requested the transfer to Florida, I made
sure he got it. I wrote a friend of mine, fellow worker, who
was responsible for them and this man requested him and took
him down. I tried to find Chappel after the unfavorable
decision to get an affidavit from him and I didn't know where
he was.
His landlady told me--I called her--don't hold me to these
little things, and she told me he was away. She told me I might
see his Minister, Reverend J. K. Holms of the Old First
Methodist Church in Long Branch, and I did and told him my
story.
He told me I wouldn't get very much; that Chappel disliked
Negroes; that he was a very ignorant person. I mentioned his
sickness and he told me that both Chappel and his wife were
alcoholics; that he had heard the story about Chappell's leg
and he got a physician in his congregation to see him and the
physician said he couldn't help him; that his trouble was
alcohol; that Chappel stayed drunk and could not come out of
the house and finally his landlady asked him to move; that
Chappel went to live in another town and his wife committed
suicide.
He wrote to Chappel and asked Chappel to write to me, but
he didn't give me much help. I got in touch with people who
worked with him in that building at that time and they told me
that Chappel hated my guts. He was always preaching what he and
his group would do when he got out of the Army, etc. He
resented working for me. I supplied that information in the
form of correspondence at the hearing in Washington concerning
Chappel.
The third person was a secretary in the section, Julia
Paulson. She was a middle-aged woman and had worked as
secretary to the chief scientist, I think, at Fort Monmouth and
he in that office had dismissed her.
We had a need for a secretary at that particular time and
she was assigned to the group. She was very inefficient,
incompetent, and in a highly excitable stage. We were always in
a hassle or controversy with other mail and records people on
how many copies she had typed properly, etc., and I tried to
iron it out. She was one of those persons--She said, ``The
first thing I know I will be in the state hospital with my
brother.'' At that time I said, ``This is something far more
fundamental than I am equipped to cope with,'' and I let it
ride. I tried to leave the situation as it was.
I was away on a trip on some duties outside the laboratory
and when I returned I was informed that she had been reassigned
somewhere else. She had been shifted out of the section, but I
was happy to get rid of the woman. I pursued it no further. She
was gone.
When I tried to complete the list of affidavits for each
person, I wrote to the branch chief, Dr. Anderson, and asked
him if he would tell me something about the circumstances of
the firing of this particular secretary. He told me he did not
know the exact details; to get in touch with his administrative
assistant, who at that time was Nagel O'Brien.
Nagel O'Brien wrote to me and sent an affidavit, a letter
to whom it may concern, which I submitted in Washington, in
which he stated she resented being assigned to work for a
Negro, and she was very upset and he had transferred her out of
the branch at the request of Dr. Anderson because of her
attitude and general inefficiency and incompetency.
This completed the list of all the people that ever worked
for me as indicated by the chief of intelligence agency to me
in a letter. I had affidavits from all the people in my section
during the time the Daily Worker was supposed to be there and
these conversations took place where communism was praised or
advocated.
Now, I don't know for a fact whether it was one of the four
people who refused to send letters or appear. I eliminated
Edgett. He said over the phone that it wasn't so. I assume that
it was one of the other three. I guess the only thing you can
do if you have a witness is to prove he is lying or
incompetent. If some thirty-five or forty people says those two
are lying, that is the best I can do. Some people working in
the outside shed with Chappel. He did not work in the building
proper.
Mr. Carr. Let me ask you this: To your knowledge there were
no Daily Workers in the area that you were responsible for?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. To my knowledge there were no Daily
Workers. It appears to be ludicrous that someone would be so
bold and stupid as to bring Daily Workers past the military. At
that time we had such an atmosphere that people were aware of
the threat.
Mr. Carr. It is also your statement that to your knowledge
there has never been any conversations favoring communism going
on in the area that you had personal knowledge of?
Mr. Jones. In my section? I want you to understand one
thing. Barry Bernstein, the assistant section chief at that
time, was very much interested in the Great Books Club. He
would argue or discuss Aristotle, Socrates, Freud during rest
periods. These are the only conversation I can say were
different from or different to the normal bull sessions such as
whether the Yankees would beat the Dodgers which took place in
the section. I don't ever remember having heard any discussions
of communism. I have heard discussions of the philosophy of
Aristotle, Socrates, and Freud. This I am mentioning to show
any or all things which could have been interpreted one way or
another by anyone. He was active in this club and that is about
the only thing that, shall we say, one could index, other than
who won the fights last night.
Mr. Carr. Concerning the other charge that you accepted
Communist support in your union, for your union post----
Mr. Jones. I just want to bring in this other point. Miss
Paulson, when assigned to my section, Captain Kerns, who was
the officer in charge of the section at that time, he was my
superior, and immediately upon her assignment he recognized the
difficulty and placed her in an office well removed from where
I was within the building because as long as she was near me
she was complaining or interfering and he placed her away so
the trouble with her was recognized earlier. During her period
in the section, Captain Kerns was discharged from the army and
had no replacement and I assumed responsibility for the
section.
I can review the history of my association with the union.
When I went to work for the Signal Corps, as I mentioned
earlier, that was the only place I could go to work and the
labs have always been spread out among different places, Fort
Hancock, Red Bank, Belmont, and Long Branch, etc., and it was
extremely embarrassing when we had an inventory to do. If I
were at Fort Hancock and we were asked to go to the field
station at Belmont, and if we had to eat anywhere in Monmouth
County, I couldn't. I couldn't go to any theaters, unless I sat
in the balcony in the reserved section, and couldn't attend any
bowling alleys, bowling meets, roller skating meets with the
fellows on the job. If a fellow said, ``Let's get a cup of
coffee,'' I sat in the car.
You don't maintain much respect with your co-workers and
people working for you if you have to live under those
circumstances.
In the next town, I lived in Fair Haven, there were two
schools, one for the Negro children and one for the white
children, and it didn't make any difference where you lived
they had to cross over. I got in touch with the NAACP. This was
legal in the state of New Jersey.
There was an organization at Fort Monmouth still in
existence, the National Federation of Federal Employees and at
the particular time that I first went about it, I went to the
president, a Mr. Heller who later was a captain in the army,
and I asked him what could be done about it. He said that this
was an internal organization and they didn't have anything to
do with outside activities; that I would have to go somewhere
else.
It costs a lot of money to fight a case. The NAACP was not
strong enough to do that. They said we can't help you, so I had
to live with the situation until 1944.
Someone mentioned at that time that there was a CIO Union
organized within Evans Signal Corps. This was the latter part
of 1944 and at that time the CIO was very active in promoting
anti-discrimination policies or programs. I went to a meeting
and determined that it was affiliated in fact with the CIO and
learned that the state headquarters of the CIO was affording
legal assistance for a very nominal fee to any local who needed
it, and to prosecute for discrimination cases before the court
was perfectly in order for the CIO, for a local union to do it.
So I joined the union and as a member there wasn't too much
interest in discrimination and I decided the only way to get
this anywhere was to become an officer, and I became an officer
by very elementary means--go to a meeting and wait until they
bring up an item for discussion. Let everybody argue about an
hour or so, recognize the trend of opinion and then get up and
say, ``We ought to do such and such.'' Do that three or four
times.
I had had some training in arguing against each other about
the same things, so it was comparatively simple to make them
feel ``This fellow knows what he is doing.'' I was elected
unanimously to vice president. The president resigned and I
became president to fill out his term, and the second term I
was reelected to the president.
We then had a situation occur against the Rockwell Diner in
Long Branch. It was and still is my opinion that if you have a
court decision against anyone particular diner, then any and
all other diners in the county and state abide by the rule. So
this situation occurred. We set up this case of discrimination
against the Rockwell Diner and then wrote to the headquarters
of the state union and they assigned a lawyer. Do you want the
name?
Mr. Carr. Might as well have it.
Mr. Jones. Harris Oxfeld and Rothbard, 1060 Broad Street,
Newark.
I am going to get this quickly.
Then we waited for him to file and he filed suit in Long
Branch District Court and a year and a half later nothing still
was done about it, so we wrote to the State CIO and asked why
didn't this fellow do something and a representative of the CIO
came down and spoke with us. He said they had unions elsewhere
and had thousands of people and our local had twenty-five or
twenty-six people in it and he couldn't see that it merited too
much attention unless we could increase the membership, and he
told the causes of things that drive people into unions and
none of those reasons existed at Fort Monmouth. Our chances of
becoming a stronger local to warrant attention in the matter of
anti-discrimination cases were slim.
I resigned from office and stopped paying dues because at
the same time the State of New Jersey revised the constitution
and set-up mechanism within the constitution to take care of
discrimination. It was no longer necessary to hire lawyers.
That is the end of my membership.
Mr. Carr. What about the allegation that you accepted
Communist support, specifically?
Mr. Jones. First of all, anybody who was in the union was
cleared secret in the laboratories. There isn't any reason to
suspect anyone unless you lose association with that person
outside of work.
Secondly, when they say support, I have no recollection of
anyone getting up and making a speech in my behalf; no
knowledge of anyone circulating petitions; electioneering among
members that ``Jones is the man we want for president.''
I said I was elected unanimously, and that is the best of
my recollection. If someone were to say there were ten
Communists in there, I couldn't say whether these people had
done anything particular to support me.
Mr. Carr. Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Jones. Yes, and Albert Sokel. I assume they were the
ones referred to, the reputed or alleged Communists, who
supported me in my candidacy for the presidency.
Mr. Carr. Did you know Ullmann was a Communist or reputed
to be Communist at the time ?
Mr. Jones. No, sir. I have no information on that. I have
never been told but I assumed Ullmann to be a Communist and
from the statements at hearings and from rumors about his
refusing or disinclination to answer any questions against him
upon his suspension from Watson Laboratory is the only
information I have he is a Communist. The same goes with Albert
Sokel.
Let me go further. I have never been to Sokel's home or
Ullmann's. I don't know Marcel Ullmann's wife. My wife doesn't
know her. They haven't been to our home. My wife has never been
to either character's home.
Mr. Carr. How about Barry Bernstein?
Mr. Jones. Barry Bernstein, I have associated with. I have
no reason to suspect that he is a member of the Communist party
or Communist sympathizer.
Mr. Carr. Were you a member of the American Veterans
Committee?
Mr. Jones. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Let me ask you this: Had you known that some of
your supporters in the union were Communists, would you have
accepted their support'?
Mr. Jones. Had I known that members of the union were
Communists, I would not have joined the union. That is to begin
with. There was a fellow in the union at that time named Albert
Strong and I knew Strong outside. He was aware of my interest
in the problem of discrimination in Monmouth County. He had a
daughter in New Jersey State College and she was taking a
position against discrimination against Negroes. Strong was in
the union. Strong also told me he had been sent to Washington
by the American Legion and he had taken a course in the FBI
auditorium at which they told how to spot and detect and report
communism. There was a fellow named Ralph Patterson, who
subsequently received an award from the American Legion. Ralph
Patterson I knew in the laboratories and he told me to be on
the lookout for Communists. If I knew Communists were in the
union, I would not have joined the union no matter what my aims
were of having been in the union. These men had been cleared by
experts and all men in the laboratories had been cleared for
secret.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever belonged to the Communist party?
Mr. Jones. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever belonged to any organization which
has been designated by the attorney general as a Communist
front?
Mr. Jones. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. You never attended meetings of the Communist
party?
Mr. Jones. I never attended meetings of any organization
declared subversive by the attorney general.
I don't know whether the attorney general called these men
subversive. I am referring to the list the Herald Tribune
published.
Mr. Carr. Your association with Marcel Ullmann was how
extensive?
Mr. Jones. We had little or no professional association
within the laboratory. On the outside we had association in the
union trying to get this case brought before the court. I did
not live in Monmouth County all during my period of employment.
I had an apartment at my mother's house here in New York. My
wife taught in nursery school in New York City during the
winter. She came down when school was out for the summertime.
We had a pair of twins we lost after they were born. They were
born in New York. The doctor who attended my wife was from New
York and they died in a New York hospital. If you will examine
the water bill record for the house, you will find that the
water was turned off over the winter and turned on again in the
spring. I did not stay in Monmouth County to socialize with
these people.
Secondly, I was going to school nights up here at Newark
College of Engineering, New York University. I got my masters
and half work towards my doctorate.
Thirdly, they sent me, and I requested from the Signal
Corps a list of all the travel orders I had stating the days I
was out and the travel order number, and that indicated I was
not in Monmouth County at least ten days out of the month. I
was in the field primarily. I was not in the laboratory an
average of ten days a month. It petered off toward the end.
Mr. Carr. Concerning these discussions that Bernstein would
engage in, could he have been discussing Marxism in these
discussions?
Mr. Jones. He could have. I did not enter the discussions.
As a section chief you have to maintain--once you become
involved in bull sessions, then you are no longer supervisor,
but one of the boys. If you have to redress a fellow
immediately afterwards, you are in an awkward position. I also
recognized as a Civil Service employee supervisor you don't
have any right of giving people raises, firing them, letting
them go, or anything. The only thing you can do is make them
like you if you have them working for you. You have no
administrative powers as is normal outside. To get people to
like you, you can't get into disagreements as to views on
religion, and then the next day ask him to make a measurement
or put himself to some inconvenience. You have to keep above
the people in that respect to get ahead.
Mr. Carr. So that I have this straight, your only problem
that you were interested in joining the union, the only problem
you had was the question of racial discrimination?
Mr. Jones. Outside the organization; none within the
laboratory.
Mr. Carr. It was for the purpose of trying to get something
done about this that you entered into the union activities?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. Now, you left when it became obvious the union
wasn't going to do anything about it, or when the state decided
to handle it themselves, in other words, changed the law?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Carr. You maintain your only activity while associated
with the laboratories down there was one concerning fighting
racial discrimination and that you had no connection whatsoever
with any Communist activity to your knowledge?
Mr. Jones. That is right. The union, during my membership
and while I was an officer, did not endorse any political
candidates, did not recommend any cessation of wars,
particularly did not endorse the Marshal Plan or speak against
it during my association with it. If members were outside,
doing it elsewhere, they didn't do it with the official
sanction of any meeting that this fellow was going to represent
local so and so at this organization.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Joseph Percoff?
Mr. Jones. He was the fellow that was president of the
union when I was vice president and he left. I don't know
whether he had ulcers or what. I was elected vice president. He
was president. I saw him at the meeting he was elected and I
don't remember ever seeing him at union meetings after that.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know him as a Communist?
Mr. Jones. No, I don't know him at all other than working
at the laboratory. I have no information about him.
Mr. Juliana. You had no knowledge that the union was
infiltrated by Communists?
Mr. Jones. At the time of my membership up to 1948 I had no
inkling. After 1948, after Sokel's discharge from the
laboratory. Sokel and Ullmann. One person said they were
Communists. They never got in touch with me to tell me they
were fired for Communistic reasons and they never challenged
it. I was no longer a member of the union and had no
association with them.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever attend meetings of the Walt
Whitman Club?
Mr. Jones. No, sir. The only time I heard of the Walt
Whitman Club was after Jack Okun was suspended and his lawyer
came to see me at Evans, saw me at Evans in the reception room
and asked if I would appear as a witness. He mentioned the Walt
Whitman Club and that was the first time I had ever seen the
name or heard of it. I went back and asked Strong and he told
me it was a Communist front organization.
Mr. Carr. Did you appear for Okun?
Mr. Jones. I didn't appear for Okun. I appeared as a
witness at the hearing and they said the union held joint
meetings with the Walt Whitman Club and I said this is false in
as far as I know and I made this statement at this hearing.
There were some arguments with his lawyer as to whether he was
operating a mimeograph machine. I still don't think he thinks I
was a witness for him.
After his lawyer questioned me to his satisfaction, I told
them I wanted to make a statement that not to my knowledge or
within my administration and under my authority of any
endorsements, any joint meetings held with the union and any
other organization, particularly the Walt Whitman Club; that I
had learned the name for the first time yesterday.
Mr. Carr. Have you known any persons known to you to be
Communists?
Mr. Jones. No. I know people that I say, ``I think that guy
is left-wing.''
Mr. Carr. You mean Communist sympathizers.
Mr. Jones. No, I know of persons you read about.
Mr. Carr. Did you appear for anybody else in the hearings
at Monmouth?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. Do you know anybody else at Monmouth who, in your
opinion was Communist or extremely left-wing? When I say left-
wing, I mean actually pro-Communist. Let's not view a situation
with the knowledge we have now.
Mr. Jones. There was a fellow named Louis Kaplan in the
union. I know now this man had Communist sympathies, at least I
suspect now from statements made at hearings and comments of
other people. You can't judge a situation--up to the time when
they first made the first break exposing Communist in the
Signal Corps, I knew of none of these people.
Mr. Carr. You were entirely unaware that Kaplan, Ullmann,
and some of the other people were Communists or procommunists?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
How would you determine this? I didn't discuss union
activities on the job. This was part of the policy. No one who
worked for Monmouth and belonged to the union solicited on the
job.
The union meetings were held very infrequently, primarily
because there were very few people, and secondly, I wasn't
there all the time. I was not in Monmouth County sufficient
time to hold regular meetings. If I were at a meeting, it was
my object to get in and out of it as quickly as possible to get
a late train back to New York or get to school. There was no
social contact with any of these individuals.
Let me make this exception. I went to the home of Louis
Kaplan once for dinner. We had a meeting and some woman was
talking. He said, ``Shut her up.'' I said, ``No, she is
talking. The woman has a right to talk.'' He blew up.
He asked me to come to dinner and I went to his house at
seven o'clock and left about 8:30, and all the time he was
trying to be very gracious with me, trying to get me to direct
the conversation at meetings and put any policy across.
As soon as the meal was over, I said ``Goodbye'' and left.
That is the only time I have been to his house. He has not been
to mine. My wife does not know him.
Mr. Carr. At that dinner meeting, Marxism was not discussed
at all?
Mr. Jones. No. I don't know if he were trying to direct the
conversation in any channels. I made a point to keep quite in
trivial matters, so I could get this thing over and get out. I
had no suspicion that he was a Communist or anything or trying
to direct anything in any Communist way. My objection I had was
of people who deny others the right to speak up and to be as
independent of that person as much as possible.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever in Marcel Ullmann's home?
Mr. Jones. No, sir. I was never in Sokel's home.
Mr. Juliana. When you were reinstated did you receive back
pay and allowances for the period----
Mr. Jones. I received a portion of back pay. In a sense
what I computed I should have gotten and what he computed were
different. I received no legal fees, no expenses and there were
regular in-grade, etc. I was supposed to have gotten, and
promotion which would have taken place, and also annual leave
losses, etc. It amounted to a considerable amount of money,
thousands of dollars.
Mr. Carr. Thank you very much.
Mr. Jones. Have I answered all your questions frankly and
openly and as completely as you want. I have held one hearing.
I don't want to leave any doubt in anybody's mind. I want to
make sure everyone is satisfied.
Mr. Carr. There were some Negroes in the union?
Mr. Jones. Jim Scott was in there. He was in there
primarily for this purpose. He was seldom at any meetings. He
was at one meeting the whole time I was there.
Mr. Carr. That is all.
Mr. Jones. I didn't get your name.
Mr. Carr. Carr and Mr. Julian and Mr. Cohn.
Thank you very much for coming.
Mr. Jones. Should I expect to be called again?
Mr. Carr. I don't believe so, Mr. Jones, but I can't say
definitely.
Mr. Jones. The point is, when I go back, do I have to tell
my supervisor I was here?
Mr. Carr. I don't believe so. We have to call in a lot of
people to straighten out some of the things we have heard. I
don't believe we will need you back again. If we do, we will
try to give you ample notice to get down here. We appreciate
your coming.
STATEMENT OF MURRAY NARELL
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name?
Mr. Narell. Murray Narell.
Mr. Cohn. N-a-r-e-l-l.
Mr. Narell. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside?
Mr. Narell. 20-23 Utopia Parkway, Whitestone 57, New York.
Mr. Cohn. What is your telephone number?
Mr. Narell. Bayside 4-3844.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you for coming in, by the way.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Narell. Yes, I was.
Mr. Cohn. When did you join the party?
Mr. Narell. 1945.
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the party?
Mr. Narell. 1952.
Mr. Cohn. In October 1952?
Mr. Narell. About then. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you join?
Mr. Narell. New York, Manhattan.
Mr. Cohn. And while you were in the Communist party did you
come across a woman named Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Narell. I think so, if it is the same one.
Mr. Cohn. Would you tell us the circumstances.
Mr. Narell. If I am not mistaken, I think there was a young
woman by that name who attended Columbia University, in the
department of economics or something like that.
Mr. Cohn. Studying there?
Mr. Narell. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What year would that be?
Mr. Narell. Roughly 1946.
Mr. Cohn. What did she look like?
Mr. Narell. As I recall, she had reddish hair, frizzly
hair. She was about 5,6" or 7" or something, middle height.
Above average for a woman. I think she wore glasses.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know where she lived?
Mr. Narell. She lived in Queens, I think.
Mr. Juliana. Was she single at the time?
Mr. Narell. Yes. I am quite sure.
Mr. Buckley. Was she ever engaged in social work? Do you
know?
Mr. Narell. I don't know. I didn't know her that well.
Mr. Cohn. About how old would she be today?
Mr. Narell. Twenty-eight, twenty-nine. That would be rough
because I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. If you saw a picture of her, you could identify
her. Is that right?
Mr. Narell. I think so. I haven't seen her in six or seven
years. I am not positive that I would.
Mr. Cohn. I think that will do it. Thanks very much for
coming in.
STATEMENT OF SAMUEL SACK
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Sack. Samuel S-a-c-k.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work now?
Mr. Sack. Espey Manufacturing Company.
Mr. Cohn. Where is that located?
Mr. Sack. 528 East 72nd Street.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
employed there?
Mr. Sack. A little over five years.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
Mr. Sack. In my own company, Supreme Transmitter
Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you have your
own company?
Mr. Sack. Two years.
Mr. Cohn. Before that?
Mr. Sack. Transmitter, Incorporated, 240 Hudson Street.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you with that company?
Mr. Sack. Approximately five years.
Mr. Cohn. Have you worked for the government?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I have.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mr. Sack. Fort Hancock, 1940 to 1941.
Mr. Cohn. By what department were you employed?
Mr. Sack. I was employed by the Department of Army,
Department of Defense, by the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sack. Assistant engineer in the Radar Position Finding
Division Group.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have access to any classified material?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Do you now?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I do.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work do you do at Espey? Do you do
any Signal Corps work?
Mr. Sack. Yes, we do.
Mr. Cohn. About how many contracts do they have at the
moment, do you know?
Mr. Sack. I would judge--with whom?
Mr. Cohn. With the Signal Corps.
Mr. Sack. With the Signal Corps I believe we have one
contract still running.
Mr. Cohn. Does that involve radar?
Mr. Sack. No, it does not.
Mr. Cohn. What does it involve?
Mr. Sack. Communication equipment.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a Communist?
Mr. Sack. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been affiliated with the Communist
movement in any way?
Mr. Sack. No.
Mr. Cohn. No way, shape, manner or form?
Mr. Sack. No way, shape, manner or form, except in 1936 I
registered Communist.
Mr. Cohn. This certainly qualified for affiliation, doesn't
it?
Mr. Sack. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What was your purpose in registering Communist?
Mr. Sack. I don't know that either.
Mr. Cohn. Now, was that the only time you registered
Communist?
Mr. Sack. Yes, it was.
Mr. Cohn. Under what circumstances did you register
Communist?
Mr. Sack. I believe that was the first time I ever
registered.
Mr. Cohn. Did you believe in communism?
Mr. Sack. I probably was just a misguided fool at the time
and though it is rather difficult to attempt to explain my
attitude at that time, I probably thought that everybody had a
right to be on the ballot or some such thing as that. I believe
that was probably the reason if there was a reason.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Who induced you to register Communist?
Mr. Sack. Nobody I know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know any Communists?
Mr. Sack. I don't believe I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know a Communist?
Mr. Sack. I really don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know anybody that you have had reasonable
grounds to believe was a Communist?
Mr. Sack. No, I do not.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know one person in your life who you
think was a Communist?
Mr. Sack. Whom I now think was a Communist?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Sack. Through his wife.
Mr. Cohn. What is the name?
Mr. Sack. Joel Barr.
Mr. Cohn. Now, tell us when you first met Joel Barr?
Mr. Sack. Sometime in the latter part of 1940.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you meet Mr. Barr?
Mr. Sack. I met him as far as I can recall--we had an
apartment together at 140 Broadway in Long Branch for a period
of, I think, approximately two months.
Mr. Cohn. What do you mean when you say you had an
apartment together?
Mr. Sack. Approximately the middle of 1940 or somewhere in
1940, I was employed as assistant engineer by the Signal Corps.
I moved to Long Branch, in a furnished room. We lived in a
furnished room. Of course, that was only a temporary
arrangement, this furnished room, as far as my wife and I were
concerned.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't know Barr at this point?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. I did not. We attempted to get an
apartment. It appears that my wife in hunting for an apartment
met the presumed wife of Barr.
Mr. Cohn. That was Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Sack. I don't know her name.
Mr. Cohn. What did she look like?
Mr. Sack. Fairly tall girl. I think she wore glasses,
brunette. I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. Would you know her if you saw her?
Mr. Sack. I might.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether her name was Vivian?
Mr. Sack. No, I do not. Apparently she had located an
apartment and asked if my wife would be willing to share one to
cut expenses down and apparently they both looked at the
apartment and my wife felt that the apartment was better than
living in a furnished room.
Mr. Cohn. Barr was working for the Signal Corps then. Is
that right?
Mr. Sack. Yes, he was.
Mr. Cohn. You did not meet him then?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Had you seen him around?
Mr. Sack. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Your wife met the girl he was supposed to marry?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Cohn. Then your wife told you about this possibility?
Mr. Sack. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. What happened next?
Mr. Sack. Then we rented this apartment together and we
learned after we were in the apartment after a month or so that
they were not married and we requested that they leave, which
they did leave.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Barr in relation to your
moving into that apartment?
Mr. Sack. I think the only time I met him was when we
actually moved into the apartment.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you know Barr was a Communist?
Mr. Sack. No, I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't it pretty obvious from the conversation of
current events.
Mr. Sack. We never had conversations on current events.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you talk to him?
Mr. Sack. As a matter of fact, we had practically nothing
to do with Barr. I think the reason they were willing to move
when we requested it, apparently he personally didn't care for
us.
Mr. Cohn. Don't you recall the name of the woman?
Mr. Sack. No, I do not. I may recognize a photograph. I
don't remember the name.
Mr. Cohn. Did they ever have Communist literature around,
the Daily Worker?
Mr. Sack. No. I am pretty positive. At least none I saw.
Mr. Cohn. Who were their friends, people who would come to
see them?
Mr. Sack. I don't think they had any friends come to see
them, at least none that I ever saw.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work was Barr doing for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Sack. I don't know exactly what work he was doing,
although I know he was interested in the transmission of
intelligence by infra-red rays.
Mr. Cohn. How did you find out he was interested in that?
Mr. Sack. From what he said.
Mr. Cohn. From what he said?
Mr. Sack. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever have papers that he was working on,
studying?
Mr. Sack. None I ever saw.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him studying?
Mr. Sack. I never saw him studying any papers myself.
Mr. Cohn. You never saw him studying papers?
Mr. Sack. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. How often did he discuss this transmission of
intelligence by infra-red rays?
Mr. Sack. I only remember once.
Mr. Cohn. What do you recall he said?
Mr. Sack. I don't recall the exact nature of the
conversation. He stated that he was interested in that type of
transmission.
Mr. Cohn. He was interested in----
Mr. Sack. That type of transmission.
Mr. Juliana. Mr. Sack, when you registered with the
Communist party; when you registered a Communist, were you
living in Brooklyn?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I was.
Mr. Juliana. What was the address?
Mr. Sack. 4704 13th Avenue in Brooklyn.
Mr. Juliana. Is that in the 16th election district? Do you
know?
Mr. Sack. I am not sure.
Mr. Juliana. You had no other affiliation with the
Communist party or any Communist front organizations that you
can recall?
Mr. Sack. That I can recall.
Mr. Cohn. Did your wife ever register Communist?
Mr. Sack. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did she ever have any connection with the party?
Mr. Sack. None at all.
Mr. Cohn. Tell me what else Barr told you about his work?
Mr. Sack. That is all. That is the only thing I remember
discussing with him.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married now?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I am.
Mr. Cohn. Have you talked to your wife? What does she
recall? Doesn't she recall her first name?
Mr. Sack. I never asked her.
Mr. Cohn. Go back and talk to your wife. We want to know
her first name and everything about her. Your wife will
probably recall the people that came to see them and anything
that was said or done around the apartment, and come back in to
see us.
Where do you live?
Mr. Sack. In Brooklyn at 4520 Twelfth Avenue.
Mr. Cohn. And what about tomorrow? Is tomorrow convenient?
Mr. Sack. It is.
Mr. Cohn. Come in tomorrow around 2:00 p.m.
Mr. Sack. All right.
Mr. Cohn. All right. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF JOSEPH BERT
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Bert. Joseph E. Bert, B-e-r-t.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Bert. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
employed there?
Mr. Bert. I have been employed by Fort Monmouth for a
little over three years and at Evans a little over two and a
half years.
Mr. Cohn. And where were you before you went to Evans?
Mr. Bert. At the Micro Air Force Research Institute, which
is part of the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have clearance?
Mr. Bert. I have had my clearance removed.
Mr. Cohn. On what grounds?
Mr. Bert. I have no grounds.
Mr. Cohn. They have not supplied you with any grounds? You
are still employed there but you have no clearance--do you have
any idea why your clearance was lifted?
Mr. Bert. Yes, I think it is because of a discussion I had
in the laboratory one day about whether instructors, and
particularly in an engineering school, should be questioned as
to whether or not they were Communists. I had taken the stand
they should be.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Bert. About a year ago.
Mr. Cohn. How do you feel about that now?
Mr. Bert. I have been thinking about that a lot since this
happened. In my experience, in engineering school, I feel that
the question isn't relevant. As I read in the New York Times
yesterday, I didn't have any engineering classes that I thought
the instructors could color my thinking and as such, I thought
the question was rather irrelevant. I think some instructors
would refuse to answer the question even though they weren't
Communists on the basis it obstructed freedoms.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you read in that same article by Professor
[Sidney] Hook when anyone resorted to the Fifth Amendment as a
subterfuge, that would be just as much defense of
Constitutional authority?
Mr. Bert. I don't think the question at the time it came
up--at the time I didn't think they should be question at all
or not----
Mr. Cohn. Do you think we ought to have Communist working
at Evans?
Mr. Bert. [No answer.]
Mr. Cohn. Suppose he was just teaching technical subjects,
they don't teach communism, do you think if they just teach
technical subjects----
Mr. Bert. I don't really know.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know what you are talking about. Look,
my friend, if you get a Communist teaching some kind of higher
mathematics or chemistry where he can't possibly color the
courses, he still has access to the students in his classes and
gets to know them and other people on the faculty. If he is a
Communist, he will take advantage of the relationship and
attempt to recruit them into the Communist party and that isn't
a healthy situation. If you think about it----
Mr. Bert. I think I agree it would not be a healthy thing
at the laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had affiliation with the Communist
movement?
Mr. Bert. So far as I know, no.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever known a Communist?
Mr. Bert. If the people you are questioning here; if any of
them, so far as I know, they aren't and I haven't known any.
Mr. Cohn. You have never been friendly with a person you
had reasonable grounds to believe was a Communist. Is that
right?
Mr. Bert. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And you never belonged to any Communist front
organizations?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about the United Federal Workers of America?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. American Veterans Committee?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. No organizations whatsoever?
Mr. Bert. I belong to IRE, Institute of Radio Engineering.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mr. Bert. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Any children?
Mr. Bert. Two children.
Mr. Cohn. Would you like them to be taught by a Communist
teacher?
Mr. Bert. I wouldn't like for them to be taught by a
Communist teacher in grade school or high school or in any
school where they could color the thinking.
Mr. Cohn. Suppose you had a Communist professor just
teaching a course he couldn't color the thinking of children,
but he could get to know them after hours as faculty advisor
and things along those lines, worked his trade on them in that
way, would that be all right with you?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. That is all.
STATEMENT OF RAYMOND DELCAMP
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Delcamp. Raymond William Delcamp.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mr. Delcamp. Long Branch, New Jersey, 643 Westwood Avenue.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work?
Mr. Delcamp. Evans Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. You have clearance?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, how long have you been working at Evans?
Mr. Delcamp. I came to work at Evans in July of 1947.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a fellow named Barry Bernstein?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. William Saltzman?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. William Johnstone Jones?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever observe any indication of communism
on the part of those three?
Mr. Delcamp. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see the Daily Worker around the
place?
Mr. Delcamp. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear any of them make pro-Communist
statements?
Mr. Delcamp. No, not that I can remember.
Mr. Cohn. You never heard them make pro-Communist
statements?
Mr. Delcamp. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever called to testify at a loyalty
hearing in any of those cases?
Mr. Delcamp. No. I knew they were having one. I knew that.
Mr. Cohn. How did you know that?
Mr. Delcamp. I learned he was under investigation about
four weeks before he was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know your name was mentioned in any way?
Mr. Delcamp. Only after Mr. Bernstein told me. He told me
in trying to answer one of the charges he had mentioned my name
as being aware of what his politics were.
Mr. Cohn. Were, you aware of what his politics were?
Mr. Delcamp. Only generally. Only in a very general sort of
way.
Mr. Cohn. You had no specific information?
Mr. Delcamp. No.
Mr. Cohn. I have nothing more.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever see Bernstein distribute a piece
of literature entitled ``The Atom and the Brass Hat,'' a little
pamphlet?
Mr. Delcamp. I don't recall it.
Mr. Juliana. You never saw it?
Mr. Delcamp. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. That is all.
STATEMENT OF LEO FARY
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please.
Mr. Fary. Leo Fary. Leo Asa Fary
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Fary. Camp Evans.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. Fary. I have been with the government twelve years.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have a clearance?
Mr. Fary. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, where do you reside?
Mr. Fary. 26 LaFatra Avenue in Eatontown.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work do you do at Evans?
Mr. Fary. Photography.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you have your training?
Mr. Fary. I started off as an apprentice about twelve years
ago. I spent three years in the navy working practical work to
where I am now.
Mr. Cohn. Was there ever a time when you went down to
Aberdeen Proving Ground to take any pictures?
Mr. Fary. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Fary. I couldn't give you the dates. I have been two or
three times. No, I have been two times--maybe three times.
Mr. Cohn. Which time was it it turned out you had the
``Atomic Cannon''?
Mr. Fary. What was that?
Mr. Cohn. About when was that--that it turned out you had
pictures of the ``Atomic Cannon?''
Mr. Fary. A year and a half or two years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Who instructed you to go down there?
Mr. Fary. Mr. Catelli, my supervisor.
Mr. Cohn. Was he the only one who discussed the trip before
you went?
Mr. Fary. I discussed it with Lovenstein.
Mr. Cohn. Who else?
Mr. Fary. He was the only one.
Mr. Cohn. Now, what did Mr. Lovenstein tell you?
Mr. Fary. I was to go down there and take a photographic
record of radar stock and radar equipment they had down there
and take movies of this gun.
Mr. Cohn. The ``Atomic Cannon''?
Mr. Fary. Right.
Mr. Cohn. Who told you to take pictures of the ``Atomic
Cannon''?
Mr. Fary. Mr. Lovenstein and Mr. Catelli.
Mr. Cohn. Did you think it unusual that they told you to
take picture of that?
Mr. Fary. No, all they talked about was the gun. I didn't
know what it was. I didn't know what kind of gun it was. They
didn't speak of it as the ``Atomic Cannon.''
Mr. Cohn. Is the thing you took a picture of the thing you
were referring to?
Mr. Fary. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. You took a picture and came back?
Mr. Fary. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you subsequently find out you should not have
taken that picture?
Mr. Fary. I ran into difficulties down there before the
pictures were taken. This Mr. Stewart, who was the engineer in
charge at Aberdeen on this particular project, asked me to get
authority from the people at Aberdeen before I did take
pictures and that I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that subsequently an issue arose----
Mr. Fary. Yes, I know.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't do it on your own?
Mr. Fary. That is right. I was told to take pictures. I
have been questioned before.
Mr. Cohn. You are very sure Mr. Lovenstein told you to take
pictures of the gun, the same one you photographed?
Mr. Fary. He didn't describe it. I just thought it was
another gun.
Mr. Cohn. How did you know the one you took pictures of was
the one he meant?
Mr. Fary. It was the only one there they were doing radar
work on.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Harold Ducore?
Mr. Fary. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did Ducore ever tell you to go to Aberdeen?
Mr. Fary. He is the section chief. Lovenstein worked under
him.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever talk to Mr. Ducore before you went
on this occasion?
Mr. Fary. No.
Mr. Cohn. You never had any contact direct?
Mr. Fary. Not on this particular project.
Mr. Cohn. On any other project?
Mr. Fary. Yes, I have projected movies for him and a lot of
other work we have done for him.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever ask you to take any pictures for him?
Mr. Fary. No.
Mr. Cohn. Never on any occasion?
Mr. Fary. No.
Mr. Cohn. When was your last trip to Aberdeen?
Mr. Fary. I am rough on the dates. I can't remember the
last trip on another project down there. I would say about a
year ago.
Mr. Cohn. Under whose instructions did you go then?
Mr. Fary. Wally Jones.
Mr. Cohn. Who else?
Mr. Fary. Mr. Catelli, my supervisor.
Mr. Juliana. What happened to the film of the ``Atomic
Cannon'' you took at Aberdeen?
Mr. Fary. We had to turn film over to the authorities at
Aberdeen. They had the film processed and classified and it was
a long time later before they sent the film back to us. They
held it.
Mr. Juliana. Why did Lovenstein want a picture of the
cannon, do you know?
Mr. Fary. He had a way of explaining it to me. We have a
lot of other films which belong to that section and he wanted
to make over all film of work the section was doing. He wanted
that included.
Mr. Juliana. What was this movie to be used for?
Mr. Fary. We have visitors, official brass comes through
and they come in and movies projected for them. Movies lots of
times will tell more than a speaker can with pictures and
everything.
Mr. Cohn. That is all. Thank you for coming in.
STATEMENT OF IRVING STOKES
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Stokes. Irving Stokes.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside?
Mr. Stokes. I can give you my mailing address in a rural
area. RFD #1, Box 184A, Keyport, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Stokes. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have a clearance?
Mr. Stokes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Up through what?
Mr. Stokes. Top secret.
Mr. Cohn. What is the nature of your duties?
Mr. Stokes. Chief of the Radar Branch and in this capacity
I have to do radar development for the army.
Mr. Cohn. What is your grade?
Mr. Stokes. GS-15.
Mr. Cohn. What is your salary?
Mr. Stokes. $10,800.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been at Evans?
Mr. Stokes. It was thirteen years in August of this year.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did Mr. Coleman work under you?
Mr. Stokes. Yes, he did.
Mr. COHN Before we get to that, have you ever been a
Communist?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had any connection with the Communist
movement?
Mr. Stokes. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. In any way?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Directly or indirectly?
Mr. Stokes. To the best of my knowledge the answer is
``no.''
Mr. Cohn. Nothing you want to tell us?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Any associations you then believed to be or you
now believe to be Communists?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You never belonged to any Communist organizations
or fronts?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't belong to the American Veterans
Committee chapter?
Mr. Stokes. No, I am not a veteran.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you say Mr. Coleman did work under you?
Mr. Stokes. Yes, he did.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work under you in 1946?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir. Shall I expand on that?
Mr. Cohn. Well, I get frightened when someone wants to
expand.
Mr. Stokes. I don't want to expand too much. I got to the
position as assistant branch chief. Prior to that time Coleman
did not work under me. He worked on the same general level. He
was a section head and I was.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work with him in 1946?
Mr. Stokes. In 1946 I would say, in effect, no.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him in 1946?
Mr. Stokes. Very generally as an employee in the
laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear that there was a search
conducted of his home and documents found there?
Mr. Stokes. I heard about it but not in very great detail.
I know of the fact that there was a search made and some
documents found and that was about all.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't hear it officially?
Mr. Stokes. Through gossip.
Mr. Cohn. You had no part in that or the steps taken?
Mr. Stokes. No, that was completely independent from my
operation.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have any knowledge of any documents
being missing from Evans Signal Laboratory?
Mr. Stokes. Now.
Mr. Cohn. Or at any time in the past?
Mr. Stokes. From time to time there has been the need to
clear up people leaving the laboratory at which time charges
were reviewed and maybe a document was initially missing.
Whether they are found later on, I do not know.
Actually, I want to say through this large number of years
and with all of the documents handled, there is a certain
measure of difficulty deciding whether documents are lost at
the present time or misplaced.
Mr. Cohn. Is there any situation which concerned you
particularly?
Mr. Stokes. The closest situation concerns my membership
research and development board. I had a lot of documents I
wanted to burn in the proper manner. I had a long list made out
of documents to burn which I turned over to an officer and he
unwittingly burned the list of the documents as well as the
documents. I sent letters to the appropriate G-2 channels.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Stokes. I would say that was in order, less than two
years ago. Since I have been in the top position in the branch.
Maybe it is a year and a half, maybe a year.
And we attempted at that time immediately to recall or
remember all of the documents we had on that list. There were
three officers involved. Since then there has been a change in
technique.
We do not let all of the copies of the list go with the
destroying officer any longer.
Mr. Cohn. Are there any situations concerning current
missing documents which you are disturbed with?
Mr. Stokes. The one disturbing factor, because of the large
volume, we have not had people sign for every individual sheet
of paper. We have had to, because of administrative factors,
attempted to inventory our material in folders, groups of
folders. However, with the current operation day to day, it has
been exceedingly difficult to keep these things current. Sheets
going into folders and sheets going out. We are doing business
in the field every day, contractual business, letter from
Washington and the like. I do have a feeling now that we
haven't got every single sheet of paper tied down and assigned
every individual.
Mr. Cohn. Has there ever been instances of papers destroyed
without authority which has come to your attention?
Mr. Stokes. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. Not at any time?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you authorize the making of carbon copies of
classified documents?
Mr. Stokes. Specifically, no; generally, yes. There are
certain rules of behavior for all top officials.
Mr. Cohn. If someone gets a secret document, can he have
five carbon copies made and not make any record of that?
Mr. Stokes. Not at the present time. There was a time when
there were no restrictions against the making of copies of
secret material.
Mr. Cohn. Then what is the purpose of keeping close track
of secret documents if you can make carbon copies and make no
record of the carbon copies?
Mr. Stokes. I agree with what you are leading up to, but
they shouldn't make carbon copies--I have known of no instances
where carbon copies were made except for official purposes. In
answering a secret letter you make a carbon copy and the copy
forms a complete----
Mr. Cohn. We had a witness, Mr. Inslerman, who testified
his secretary would make five or six carbons of different
secret documents and keep no record of the number of carbons
made.
Mr. Stokes. That was true. It isn't true any longer.
Mr. Cohn. That seems to defeat the whole purpose.
Mr. Stokes. That is so. As a matter of fact, for the
longest time they did not serialize secret documents and if
five copies were made and one gets lost, you have no idea whose
copy you recover.
Mr. Cohn. Up until when? When were the final corrective
steps taken?
Mr. Stokes. The issuance of 380-5-1.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Stokes. I am guessing in the order of a couple of
months ago.
Mr. Cohn. Has there been any further communication since
that time?
Mr. Stokes. I would say the advent of the committee's
operation has caused a considerable tightening up.
Mr. Cohn. Are you now satisfied with things over there?
Mr. Stokes. Not at the moment satisfied, but we are moving
in the proper direction. I feel in the near future we will have
every single sheet of paper tied down. We are now in the
process of clearing out dusty files, destroying them,
inventorying everything else.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you working from 1940 to 1943?
Mr. Stokes. At the laboratories at Sandy Hook. This was
when radar was in its infancy. I came to the laboratory in
1940.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you get your education?
Mr. Stokes. Newark College of Engineering.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joel Barr?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Alfred Sarant?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Eleanor Glassman?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Stokes. I knew of him. I didn't know him.
Mr. Cohn. You knew him when he was connected with Watson?
Mr. Stokes. No. I think he was at Evans at one time, tied
in with the CIO union activities. That was when the union
attempted to get a foothold in the laboratory. I did not know
him except to see him once or twice.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you in 1944 and 1945?
Mr. Stokes. I was at Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Now, would it have been proper in 1944 for
someone who had worked at Evans, then out on military leave, to
have people who were working at Evans send him classified
information through the mail? Would it be proper for them to
receive classified information from Evans?
Mr. Stokes. Only through appropriate channels, not outside
of appropriate channels.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, if I were working at Evans and
went into the service, I couldn't write a letter to a friend
and tell him to get me such and such and such and such and mail
them to me?
Mr. Stokes. Not for classified material. Not unless it is
through channels. We had had an officer who was at the Army War
College and he had to give a talk on radar and he asked me for
radar information. Once again, this was well documented and
sent properly.
Mr. Cohn. You wouldn't just pull it out and send it? You
would make an official record and get approval?
Mr. Stokes. Absolutely. No question about it.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Fred Kitty?
Mr. Stokes. I am not sure. I served on a Civil Service
Commission board at one time and I think Mr. Kitty was on
there. I would have to see the man.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a loyalty board?
Mr. Stokes. The Civil Service Commission was overloaded on
marking test papers of people trying to get jobs and we were
helping.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had any connection with the loyalty set
up?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you very much.
[Whereupon, the hearing adjourned.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Joseph H. Percoff (1908-1986) testified in
public session on December 11, 1953. Abraham Chasanow (1910-
1989), Solomon Greenberg (1916-2001), Isadore Solomon (1921-
1982), William Saltzman (1917-2000); and Samuel Sack (1911-
1977), did not testify publicly.]
----------
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met (pursuant to Senate Resolution 40,
agreed to January 30, 1953) at 2:00 p.m., room 36, Federal
Building, New York City, N.Y., Senator Joseph R. McCarthy,
presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; G. David Schine, chief consultant; Daniel
G. Buckley, assistant counsel; James Juliana, investigator.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM CHASANOW (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH A. FANELLI)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn,
please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in the matter now in hearing will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Chasanow. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get counsel's name for the record?
Mr. Fanelli. Joseph A. Fanelli. I am a member of the
District of Columbia Bar, 736 Wyatt Building, Washington, D.C.
The Chairman. Mr. Fanelli, in view of the fact that you
haven't appeared before the committee before, let me briefly
run over the committee rules. As far as counsel is concerned,
his client can consult with him at any time he cares to and you
may advise him at any time you care to. If at any time you feel
you want a private conference, we will arrange for that. The
only restriction is that counsel cannot take part in the
proceedings. You can speak as freely as you care to through and
to your client.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your name?
Mr. Chasanow. Abraham Chasanow.
Mr. Cohn. And where do you reside?
Mr. Chasanow. 11 T Ridge Road, Greenbelt, Maryland.
Mr. Cohn. And you are an attorney by profession?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When and where were you admitted?
Mr. Chasanow. I was admitted to the District of Columbia
Bar in 1934.
Mr. Cohn. And have you ever worked for the U.S. government?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Chasanow. Since April 16, 1930.
Mr. Cohn. With what agencies?
Mr. Chasanow. First I was with Census Bureau on a temporary
job and with the War Department as a permanent employee; then I
went to work for the Hydrographic Office as a permanent
employee. Hydrographic Office of the navy.
Mr. Cohn. What were your duties, very briefly?
Mr. Chasanow. My job was primarily inventory control.
Mr. Cohn. For the Navy Hydrographic Office?
Mr Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What was your salary?
Mr. Chasanow. $8,360 a year.
Mr. Cohn. On what grounds were you suspended?
Mr. Chasanow. Do you want me to enumerate those?
The Chairman. Do you have the letter of charges with you?
Mr. Fanelli. What we have is in his answer. We repeated
each charge. That letter gave the answers. That is not an
official document but it is an exact copy. If you get down
beyond the background consideration, we repeat each charge and
response by Mr. Chasanow.
Mr. Cohn. Now, let me ask you this: Do you know the
Rothschilds and the Solomons?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir. I do know a Morris Solomon just very
slightly, but apparently the Morris Solomon mentioned in the
charges is not the one I know. They mentioned a Morris and
Linda Solomon in the charges and according to the newspapers
which have been referring to Morris, they mention his wife as
Miriam Solomon.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morris Solomon?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, very slightly.
Mr. Cohn. How about the Rothschilds?
Mr. Chasanow. I don't recall the Rothschilds at all.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know the Rothschilds at all?
Mr. Chasanow. I may have seen them at a public meeting, but
they are not listed in the Greenbelt directory.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Henry Prelman?
Mr. Chasanow. I do know Henry Prelman.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mrs. Prelman to be a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anything they ever said or did which
gave you reasonable grounds to believe they were Communists?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now, what connection have you had, if any, with
the United American Spanish Aid Group?
Mr. Chasanow. None, except that one which may possibly be
sponsored by the Spanish Aid Committee, which is mentioned in
my answer.
Mr. Cohn. Did you go to any party given by that?
Mr. Chasanow. No, the party I speak of in my answer was
purely a social gathering.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you ever subscribe to the Communist
newsletter, In Fact? \7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\7\ In Fact was a weekly newsletter published by George Seldes. See
his executive session testimony in State Department Information
Service-Information Centers, July 1, 1953.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Chasanow. I believe that that was around 1939 or 1940
for a short while.
The Chairman. Did you know that was a Communist organ at
that time?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir. There was nothing in it to indicate
that it was. The only thing was it was a cheap little newspaper
and after reading it I found that I didn't agree with what they
said and I threw it in the waste basket and never removed my
subscription.
The Chairman. You said you did not agree?
Mr. Chasanow. I did disagree with what they said.
The Chairman. In other words, see if I understand you. You
recognized that it was something with which you couldn't agree
and quit reading it. Did you ever subscribe to it after that?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now, do you know a man by the name of Ziecheck
Mr. Chasanow. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. Would you repeat that question?
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mr. Ziecheck to be a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. Not at the time that I had met him but as I
stated in the answer, several years later I heard that he was
and that was the occasion I mentioned when I would not permit
him in my house.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Arenz?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know him to be a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know Mr. Arenz?
Mr. Chasanow. He was an attorney for the corporation which
I was suggested on behalf of a client. I had one dealing with
him.
Mr. Cohn. And have you yourself ever belonged to the
National Lawyer's Guild?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When did you join?
Mr. Chasanow. It must have been in 1939 and checking back
through the records I found my card which expired in March of
1940.
Mr. Cohn. How long did you remain in the National Lawyers
Guild?
Mr. Chasanow. I never renewed my membership.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you know that the National Lawyers Guild
was under Communist domination?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir. There was nothing to indicate that
it was.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't that after the time that it was learned
that virtually the entire leadership and a large group of the
membership were Communists--Justice Jackson publicly resigned
from the organization?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I am positive that was in 1937 or 1938. We can
check the record on that.
The Chairman. Do you recall when he resigned in protest
saying it was Communist controlled?
Mr. Chasanow. I had no particular interest in the
organization and dropped out in 1940. I don't recall reading
much about it after that.
The Chairman. Do you recognize that now as a completely
Communist-dominated organization?
Mr. Chasanow. I don't know of my own knowledge. I have read
quite a bit about it in the papers.
Mr. Cohn. What is your thought? You are a lawyer and should
be somewhat of an expert on that?
Mr. Chasanow. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Well, do you think it was Communist dominated
as the attorney general says it was?
Mr. Chasanow. To be honest, Senator, I'd have to say I
don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Sherrod East?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know Mr. East?
Mr. Chasanow. I know him fairly well.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet him?
Mr. Chasanow. I first met him shortly after he moved to the
town of Greenbelt in 1949.
Mr. Cohn. Now, were you active in the affairs of the
Greenbelt Health Association?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir, for a short period of time.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Chasanow. I believe it was about late 1939 or early
1940.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Dr. Samuel Berenberg?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. No.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you know him?
Mr. Chasanow. Not very well except through professional
relationship. He was one of the three doctors on the staff.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Dr. Berenberg when he came back
after he left Greenbelt and came back and was rehired in 1942?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir. I think he paid several
professional visits to us after that time.
The Chairman. I gather from the questioning--I haven't seen
the letter of charges--that the principal charge against you
was close association with a sizable number of Communists. Is
that correct? Is that the gist of it?
Mr. Chasanow. Apparently so, Senator.
The Chairman. And were you handling classified material
when you worked at the hydrographic office?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How high was that classified?
Mr. Chasanow. Some of it was classified secret.
The Chairman. Was that material of such a nature--I am not
saying or intimating you were--if you were a Communist and were
a Communist and were passing that over to some espionage agents
it could be of great value to the Communists in case of war
with the United States?
Let's put the question this way. Let's say that someone
other than you was handling the same type of material. Let's
say he is a Communist and handing it over to Communists agents,
would you say that would be of great value to the Communist in
case of war with the Soviet Union?
Mr. Chasanow. I don't know. I am not trying to hedge. Ours
was a pretty technical office. It would be of very limited
value in most cases.
The Chairman. Would it be of some value to the enemy?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the definition of secret? You say it
was secret. Do you recall the definition of secret?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir. I don't.
The Chairman. I think the definition of secret is material
which the unauthorized disclosure of would be of great value to
the enemy and could do a like amount of damage to the United
States. Would you say that is a correct description of the type
of material you were handling?
Mr. Chasanow. Probably so, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now did you have anything to do with Dr.
Berenberg's re-employment at Greenbelt?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And you say at no time during your association
did you come to know he was a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever discuss Dr. Berenberg with Mr. East?
Mr. Chasanow. In what manner?
Mr. Cohn. In any manner that you recall?
Mr. Chasanow. We probably have because I was on the board
of directors for a short while and I'm sure his name must have
come up when we would be discussing contracts and things of
that sort.
Mr. Cohn. When did the fact that Dr. Berenberg was a
Communist come to your attention?
Mr. Chasanow. It has never come to my attention.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. East never told you that?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever suspect that he was a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir. I had no reason to.
Mr. Cohn. You had no reason whatsoever?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear anyone accuse Dr. Berenberg
of being a Communist before today?
Mr. Chasanow. I can't say that I have, Senator. Of course
the word is loosely banded around in Greenbelt. It is a small
community and when people get mad at each other they call each
other names. It may have been. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Is it general knowledge at Greenbelt that
there is a small group of Communists out there.
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. Strike the word small.
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever heard that claim made?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. You say you never have heard the claim or
accusation made that there is a group of Communists at
Greenbelt?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir, I don't recall it.
The Chairman. Do you think there are any Communists out
there?
Mr. Chasanow. I don't know of any, Senator.
The Chairman. Do you think there are any there?
Mr. Chasanow. Speaking purely of my own knowledge, I would
say no, sir.
The Chairman. Not of your own knowledge? Any information
you have got?
We are dealing with a very important matter. We have the
testimony of any number of witnesses that there is an espionage
ring working within our Signal Corps laboratories. If that is
true, it means this country is in considerable danger; it means
the Russians have our top most secrets concerning our radar,
our radar changes and electrical equipment--almost everything.
You have been handling that secret material in one branch of
the government. You have had security clearance. You have been
living in a project where a great number of witnesses tell us
there was a hard core of Communist organizations, and I just
wonder if you yourself could shed any light about that. You are
not here as a defendant. You are here to be of help to the
committee and try to give us information.
Mr. Chasanow. I want to be of as much help as I can.
Honestly, Senator, if there has been that, they have certainly
steered clear of me. They haven't said anything in my presence.
I know personally no one who ever said anything in my presence
to indicate he was a Communist.
The Chairman. Did Mr. East ever tell you he found out Dr.
Berenberg was a Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. Is that something you would be inclined to
remember?
Mr. Chasanow. I think so.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. I am going to ask you that question again.
Did you and East ever discuss the fact that Dr. Berenberg was a
Communist?
Mr. Chasanow. Senator, I honestly do not recall ever
discussing that with him.
The Chairman. Let me run over your employment again. You
started to work with the government in 1930, Bureau of Census,
wasn't it?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you worked there how long?
Mr. Chasanow. About seven months until December of 1930.
The Chairman. Then where did you go?
Mr. Chasanow. War Department on a Grade 1 permanent
appointment.
The Chairman. What type of work did you do with the War
Department?
Mr. Chasanow. Filing.
The Chairman. And were you handling the personnel files,
security files, or what type of files?
Mr. Chasanow. As I recall, they were jackets of deceased
enlisted men.
The Chairman. And how long did you work there?
Mr. Chasanow. Until March of 1931.
The Chairman. Then where did you go?
Mr. Chasanow. Then I received a Grade 2 permanent
appointment to the hydrographic office.
The Chairman. And you worked in the hydrographic office in
the army----
Mr. Chasanow. In the navy.
The Chairman. And have you worked in that office ever
since?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Up until you were suspended?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What action has been taken upon your
suspension?
Mr. Chasanow. I received a copy of the decision of the
board. I have it here if you'd like to have it.
The Chairman. May I see that?
[The witness handed a paper to the chairman.]
The Chairman. Have they reinstated you?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have a copy of the hearings--in other
words, the testimony taken?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who appeared against you at that time?
Mr. Chasanow. There were no witnesses against me that I
know of, Senator.
The Chairman. Do you know the names of the witnesses who
appeared?
Mr. Chasanow. At the hearing?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Chasanow. Yes.
The Chairman. Could you give us those?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir. There was Major Frank J. Lastner,
director of public safety, George J. Panagoulis, Rabbi Morris
A. Sandhaus, Adelbert C. Long, Simon Ratner and then the board
called two more, Mrs. Winfield McCamy, city clerk of Greenbelt
and Anthony Madden, who is Farm Bureau Insurance representative
in Greenbelt.
Mr. Fanelli. They called two more from your office.
Mr. Chasanow. I am sorry. They called Commander W. G.
Knopf, and Vincent A. Corello.
The Chairman. Did they call any of these individuals who
are alleged to be Communists and whom you are alleged to have
been extremely friendly with?
Mr. Chasanow. I don't know who else they might have called.
The Chairman. You were present at the hearing at all times?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir. No, we were excused from the room
when they had executive conferences.
The Chairman. You were there and heard all of the witnesses
testify?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As far as you know they didn't call any of
the individuals named in the letter.
Mr. Fanelli. Senator, in that connection, as to people
named in one connection or another, we filed affidavits from
them. We filed an affidavit from Arenz in which he denied any
membership in the party any time and we also filed an affidavit
from a Mr. Cooper who is mentioned in these charges in which he
made the same denial.
The Chairman. How many witnesses did you ask them to call?
Mr. Chasanow. Five.
The Chairman. And they called those five and called others
that they themselves wanted?
Mr. Chasanow. Four.
The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that they
recommended that you be reinstated?
Mr. Chasanow. Right.
The Chairman. The board recommended that you be reinstated?
Mr. Chasanow. That is correct.
The Chairman. How long will it be before that is acted
upon?
Mr. Chasanow. We don't know. I wish we knew.
The Chairman. How well do you know Don Burdett?
Mr. Chasanow. I had never met him before.
The Chairman. Did you know who he was before he sat on the
board?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. How about the colonel?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. You had a board of three men that you had
never met before.
Mr. Fanelli. I might say, Senator, I understand their
rules--I understand this is true everywhere; the board members
are drawn from other agencies. None of these people were navy
men. One of them I think was from the air force. I am not sure
about the colonel. The other two came from elsewhere.
The Chairman. I understand those are the new rules since
the Eisenhower order.
Were all the witnesses sworn?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I don't want to take the time to read this
now. We have other witnesses, but I wonder if you could make a
copy for us.
Mr. Chasanow. You may have that, sir.
The Chairman. It is not classified at all?
Mr. Chasanow. No, sir.
The Chairman. If you have another copy, I would appreciate
that.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. East consult with you at all in
connection with your suspension?
Mr. Chasanow. I haven't seen or talked to East in a year or
two, possibly longer.
The Chairman. You are excused. I don't think we will need
you again.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH H. PERCOFF (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEONARD E. GOLDITCH) (RESUMED)
The Chairman. Have the record show that the witness has
been sworn before. Also let the record show that this is the
same witness who appeared ten days or more ago and wanted an
adjournment so he could fully discuss his problems with his
attorney. That adjournment was granted and he is now before the
committee.
Mr. Golditch. Before you question the witness I would like
to make a statement.
The Chairman. You may.
Mr. Golditch. Objection is made to the hearing on the basis
that the hearing exceeds the power given to the committee by
the Constitution, the enactments of the Congress and
resolutions of Congress; further that a quorum of the committee
is not present and further that the committee is not
constitutionally set up as provided by the laws applicable
thereto because of the fact that the members of the committee
just constitute the majority party and has no members of the
minority party in Congress; also that the witness by reason of
the fact that an objection has not been stated for the record
thereby isn't considered to waive any of the objections that he
might have taken under the Constitution, the enactments of
Congress or the resolutions of Congress.
The Chairman. May I say if we ask any questions of the
witness which goes beyond the power of the committee, we will
be glad to get your objection.
Under the rules of the committee you must enter that
objection through your client.
Mr. Golditch. Thank you.
The Chairman. There is a quorum present. Under the rules of
the committee one person constitutes a quorum. Just for your
own information, so you will have that in mind when you advise
your client, the third objection which you made that the
committee is not properly constituted by reason of the fact
that it only has majority members, that question was raised in
the case, I believe, of Mr. [Harvey] O'Connor when he refused
to answer any questions. We took it up before the committee as
a whole after the three Democrats stated they would not serve
and those three members were not serving on the committee, and
the full committee voted contempt. We then took that to the
Senate floor and there again a unanimous vote of contempt of
the witness, which was approved by the Senate as a whole, the
jurisdiction of the committee and the fact that the
subcommittee was properly constituted. Mr. O'Connor's case was
turned over to the grand jury in Washington and two or three
weeks ago he was indicted for contempt. I give you that
information as a courtesy. Have that in mind when you advise
your client.
Have the record show that the objections of counsel were
heard and have been overruled.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Percoff, could we have your full name?
Mr. Percoff. Joseph H. Percoff.
Mr. Cohn. Have you worked for the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Percoff. Are you referring to Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. This is just general questions.
Mr. Percoff. I understand that. I think I am going to have
to refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. The grounds of refusal is what?
Mr. Percoff. The grounds of refusal is as follows: At my
last appearance here my attorney was informed that this
committee was conducting an investigation of Communist
activities at Fort Monmouth. Under those circumstances I
believe it is my duty to refuse to answer the question on the
ground that any investigation of political activities in any
place, including Fort Monmouth, is a violation of the rights
guaranteed by the First Amendment, including the freedom of
speech, freedom of association and freedom of belief. I also
refuse to answer the question on the grounds that there have
been reports in the papers in the last three weeks that there
has been evidence of espionage at Fort Monmouth and, therefore,
I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that a witness
cannot be compelled to place himself at the scene of a crime
under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. If that is your only objection, you will be
ordered to answer the question. You can confer with counsel as
freely as you care to. You have not stated a valid ground for
refusal as of this point.
Mr. Percoff. I further refuse to answer the question on the
grounds that the question violates the provisions of the Ninth
and Tenth Amendments of the Constitution and the Fifth
Amendment which states a witness cannot be compelled to testify
against himself.
The Chairman. May I say your objection to answer on the
grounds of the First, Ninth and Tenth Amendments would not be
honored but your refusal on the ground that a witness cannot be
forced to incriminate himself, using the Fifth Amendment, is
considered a valid reason for your refusal, so you will not be
ordered to answer. The previous order of the chair to answer
the question is withdrawn because at that point you did not
avail yourself of the Fifth Amendment. You will not be ordered
to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Percoff, while you were employed by the
Signal Corps were you one of the organizers of the Shore Branch
of the Communist party?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it assumes a state of facts not proven and on all
the other grounds I have stated to the other questions.
Mr. Cohn. Do you refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate you under the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Percoff. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Now, while you were employed by the Army Signal
Corps were you engaged in espionage against the United States?
Mr. Percoff. Again you are assuming--I would like to answer
the last part of the question.
The Chairman. May I say; Mr. Witness, we are assuming
nothing. You understand if you have not engaged in espionage it
would not incriminate you if you said, ``No, I have not engaged
in espionage.''
If we asked you whether you had robbed a bank, you could
merely say ``no'' and that wouldn't incriminate you. If you
robbed it, you could rightfully use the Fifth Amendment and
refuse to send yourself to jail. Counsel asks you these
questions assuming nothing. We ask questions of many witnesses
covering a great range of subjects. May I say we often inform a
witness before we ask him whether he is a member of the
Communist party that the mere asking of the question does not
indicate a pre-decision or pre-thought on the part of the
committee. We have this very important job to do. We have
evidence establishing that there was espionage going on at Fort
Monmouth. We have evidence that you were an organizer for the
Communist party, evidence you were working with known espionage
agents. We have evidence here that you were a close friend of a
man whose apartment was raided where there was picked up secret
material, material which could be of infinite value to the
enemy. We have you here for two reasons. One is to attempt to
get information, a picture of what occurred at Fort Monmouth.
The other reason is so that you will know what you are going to
be asked in public session so you can prepare yourself for it.
You will be called in public session when we get through. This
is a courtesy to you to have you here and also will give you an
opportunity to say, ``No, I was not handing things over to
Communist agents.'' We are not assuming anything at all.
Mr. Percoff. Will you repeat the question?
Mr. Cohn. When working for the Army Signal Corps were you
engaged in espionage against the United States?
Mr. Percoff. In view of what the chairman has already told
me, I will state that I have never committed espionage at any
time at any place.
The Chairman. Then your answer to that question is ``No.''
Mr. Percoff. No, that isn't my answer to the question. My
answer I have already given. My answer is that I never
committed espionage at any time, any place.
Mr. Cohn. I'd like a ``yes'' or ``no'' answer.
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer on the grounds the answer
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The witness will be ordered to answer because
you have waived the privilege when you stated you had not ever
committed espionage. When you waive the privilege, you waive it
not merely to a single question, you waive it in that
particular area of inquiry; so you will be ordered to answer
counsel's question on the grounds that you have waived the
privilege of the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Percoff. I still refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the committee has no authority under the Constitution,
under the laws of the United States, or under congressional
resolutions for only one member of the committee to make such a
ruling; and on the further ground that the question asked and
the answer to be solicited would still incriminate me so far as
placing me at a place where Communist activities were.
The Chairman. Have the record show that the witness refused
to answer the question; that the chair ordered him to answer
and that the witness still refused to answer the question.
Mr. Cohn. On January 12, 1945, did you transmit classified
information by word of mouth to a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds already stated.
The Chairman. The witness will be ordered to answer that
question on the ground he has waived his privilege under the
Fifth Amendment previously. I assume you still refuse.
Mr. Percoff. Yes, I do.
Mr. Cohn. Now, were you working at Watson Laboratories in
February of 1945?
Mr. Percoff. On the basis of the information that I have
learned here I will have to refuse to answer that question on
all the grounds already stated.
Mr. Cohn. That includes the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Percoff. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you state on February 7, 1945, that you
were being transferred to Watson Laboratories and would be able
to obtain valuable information from there?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds already stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you engaged in transmitting classified
information--were you and Aaron Coleman engaged in the
transmission of classified information to unauthorized persons?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer the question on all the
grounds previously stated in view of the information that the
chairman has given me.
The Chairman. This again would have to do with violation of
the espionage act. In view of the statement that the witness
has never engaged in espionage, the chairman has ruled that he
has waived his privilege under the Fifth Amendment and you will
be ordered to answer the question. I assume you still refuse?
Mr. Percoff. I would like to take exception to the
chairman's ruling on the ground I do not believe the chairman
has authority, sitting as a committee of one, to rule on
questions concerning the propriety of questions; that the only
authority with which he is endowed with is to interrogate
witnesses and not to make rules as to propriety of questions.
The Chairman. May I say this is a waste of time and I am
not going to argue with you. You have a lawyer and I happen to
be a lawyer too. I merely for your information give you the
chair's position and it will be up to the subsequent tribunals
to determine whether you have the right to refuse or not.
You are still refusing to answer?
Mr. Percoff. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Now, were you engaged in the transmission of
classified information to a member of the Communist party
operating as a Soviet espionage agent and using the name
yourself of Joseph Herbert?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on all the
grounds already stated.
Mr. Cohn. Including the ground that the answer might tend
to incriminate you under the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Percoff. Yes.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer the question. I
assume you still refuse on the grounds stated the previous
time?
Mr. Percoff. That is right, plus the objection to the
ruling of the chairman as a committee of one.
Mr. Cohn. Have you used the name Joseph Herbert----
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds already stated.
The Chairman. What is your correct name?
Mr. Percoff. Joseph H. Percoff.
The Chairman. Were you baptized Joseph Percoff?
Mr. Percoff. That is correct.
The Chairman. Have you used that as your name ever since?
That was your given name?
Mr. Percoff. Given name.
The Chairman. Have you used the name of Joseph Percoff ever
since?
Mr. Percoff. In view of the fact of the previous questions
asked me, I will have to refuse to answer that question on the
same grounds already stated.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever visit in the fall of 1949 the home
of Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that I have already stated.
The Chairman. You are entitled to refuse if you include the
Fifth Amendment. I assume you do.
Mr. Percoff. [Witness nods head affirmatively.]
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on all the
grounds stated including the First, Fifth, Ninth and Tenth
Amendments.
The Chairman. What provisions of the Ninth and Tenth
Amendment do you have in mind?
Mr. Percoff. The provisions that limit the powers given by
the Constitution wherein that it limits the powers given to the
national government, and any powers that are not enumerated in
the Constitution cannot be assumed by any congressional
committee.
The Chairman. In other words, you feel the committee does
not have authority to investigate alleged espionage in defense
plants? Is that correct?
I am just trying to get your reason for your refusal. Your
refusal is a bit unique.
Mr. Percoff. I believe that the question violates my rights
under the First, Ninth, Tenth Amendments. Also, I refused to
answer the question under the Fifth Amendment and at that point
I don't want to get into a legal discussion on the question.
The Chairman. I am not trying to bring about an argument. I
ordered you to answer certain questions and I would like to be
sure I have your position in mind before I have that order
stand. You say it would be violating your rights under the
First, Ninth and Tenth Amendments. I understood previously that
you thought we were exceeding our authority. If you'd like to
tell me, I'd like to hear what you have in mind.
Mr. Percoff. At this point I wouldn't care to convince
anybody.
The Chairman. Are you currently in contact with anyone
working at Fort Monmouth or Evans Signal Corps Laboratories?
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. Have you been in contact with anyone at Fort
Monmouth who to your knowledge has never been a Communist,
never engaged in any unlawful activities either directly or
indirectly.
Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds already stated in that that places me at Fort Monmouth
or in contact with employees at Fort Monmouth.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer that. You are
not asked whether you were in contact with criminals or in
contact with Communist agents. You are asked if you were ever
in contact with anyone at Fort Monmouth who has never been
engaged in illegal activities as far as you know, or not
Communist espionage agents as far as you know. You are ordered
to answer that question because that answer would in no way
incriminate you.
Mr. Percoff. I will still have to refuse to answer the
question on the grounds that all newspaper publicity implies
that almost everybody who has come before this committee has
been connected with espionage, and certainly I wouldn't know
whether anybody else was engaged in espionage.
The Chairman. That will be all. You may step down. You will
consider yourself still under subpoena and we will contact your
lawyer when we want you. How much notice will you have to have?
Mr. Golditch. I don't expect to be out of town any time.
The Chairman. We follow the practice of trying to
accommodate counsel as much as possible. If your client is
notified to appear and you are tied up with court work, we will
try to accommodate you. We have so many witnesses we can shift
them around.
TESTIMONY OF SOLOMON GREENBERG (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
FREDERICK P. HAAS)
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn.
In the matter now in hearing before this committee do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Greenberg. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get counsel's name?
Mr. Haas. Frederick P. Haas, firm of Webster, Shepfield and
Christy, 15 Broad Street.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Greenberg, what is your full name?
Mr. Greenberg. Solomon Greenberg.
Mr. Cohn. G-r-e-e-n-b-e-r-g?
Mr. Greenberg. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been employed at the Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir. I have been.
Mr. Cohn. From when until when?
Mr. Greenberg. From 1943 to 1952.
Mr. Cohn. During that period of time were you working on
any classified material?
Mr. Cohn. Did any of it involve radar?
Mr. Greenberg. Well, radar is such a nebulous quantity. May
I answer this way. I worked on microwave equipment, not a radar
set in itself. I worked on a communications system.
Mr. Cohn. Microwave radar would certainly come into it,
wouldn't it?
Mr. Greenberg. [No answer.]
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever deal with information concerning
radar?
Mr. Greenberg. I never worked on a radar set specifically.
Yes, sir, I did once work on a radar set.
Mr. Cohn. And have you not worked with radar indirectly?
Mr. Greenberg. I worked on radar indirectly.
Mr. Cohn. Now, have you ever been a Communist?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Mr. Levitsky?
Mr. Greenberg. I first met Mr. Levitsky when he came to
work in the laboratory between six and nine months after I did.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you come to know Mr. Levitsky?
Mr. Greenberg. If I may, sir, I will trace my
acquaintanceship with Mr. Levitsky.
When he came to work we were assigned to the same division-
Mr. Cohn. I'd like to save a little time.
Did you know him socially?
Mr. Greenberg. I never visited his home. The only social
engagements were company functions and at a specific time we
worked together in Washington, D.C.
Mr. Cohn. Has he ever been to your home?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been to any social gatherings other
than company functions at which he was present?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you see Mr. Levitsky following your
suspension from the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You did not?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. The last time you saw him was when you left
there?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. The last time I saw him was one
evening when he called me and asked that we get together.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Greenberg. I cannot give you exact dates.
Mr. Cohn. Approximately?
Mr. Greenberg. It was sometime prior to November 3rd of
last year, between September 12 and November 3rd last year.
Mr. Cohn. About a year ago?
Mr. Greenberg. About a year ago.
Mr. Cohn. What happened at that meeting?
Mr. Greenberg. I met him at the bus terminal, the Port
Authority bus terminal. We journeyed from the Port Authority
bus terminal to the Waldorf Astoria Hotel and there purchased a
drink and sat in full view of everyone in Peacock Alley, I
think it is called, I am not sure--in the Waldorf Astoria--and
after about an hour we left and we walked over to the west side
of town and stopped in a Howard Johnson's ice cream place and
had ice cream and coffee and then went home.
Mr. Cohn. Why did he want to see you?
Mr. Greenberg. He wanted to know specifically why I left
Federal Telecommunications. He wanted to know what plans I had
made for the future. That, sir, is about the sum and substance
of what he wanted to know and what we discussed. We discussed a
few other things such as the job we worked on in Washington,
D.C.
Mr. Cohn. What job?
Mr. Greenberg. A contract, CXJY, Communications System.
Mr. Cohn. Was anything connected with that classified?
Mr. Greenberg. I think it had a minor classification
number. I don't recall.
Mr. Cohn. What did he want to know about that job--what
progress had been made since?
Mr. Greenberg. He and I worked on the job and it was
canceled, the offer termination. Neither of us worked on it
since 1949 insofar as I know. I do not know what happened to
that job after that.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ask anything about anything you were
working on or anything going on at the laboratory?
Mr. Haas. Now, let's make it clear. Greenberg left there--
--
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave there?
Mr. Greenberg. September 12th.
Mr. Cohn. Now, he had left sometime before that, hadn't he?
Mr. Greenberg. He left in February.
Mr. Cohn. Was Levitsky then employed in the Laboratory?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Greenberg left in September 1952. Levitsky was
still there?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. And he called you up?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't that rather unusual when you had had no
social relationship at all that all of a sudden he calls you
up? Doesn't it strike you as unusual?
Mr. Greenberg. Lots of people called me up when I left and
I didn't think it was specifically unusual. I was so concerned
with myself I didn't think anything unusual about anyone else.
The Chairman. Had the final action been taken on your case
when you discussed the matter with Levitsky?
Mr. Greenberg. Could you define----
The Chairman. You were suspended by the commanding officer.
Did you have a hearing?
Mr. Greenberg. When I left Federal Telecommunications? I
resigned.
The Chairman. Were you not suspended?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. And Levitsky left after you did?
Mr. Greenberg. He was still working there.
The Chairman. And you had not been a friend of Levitsky
before that?
Mr. Greenberg. Well, sir, I knew him as a man to work with.
I wasn't intimate friends. I never went out with him. Our
relationship was not the type of social billing. If I saw him
in the laboratory I stopped to talk with him and knew him.
The Chairman. Did he call you up and arrange for this
meeting?
Mr. Greenberg. He called me. He also called me the night my
mother died a year ago today.
The Chairman. Originally when you were interviewed about
this meeting, is it correct you said it was just a chance
meeting and not arranged by Levitsky? Is that correct?
Mr. Greenberg. His calling me.
The Chairman. Do you understand the question?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir, I don't.
The Chairman. Have you been questioned about this before?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. By whom?
Mr. Greenberg. Mr. Cahill.
The Chairman. Who is Mr. Cahill? Mr. Cahill of the FBI?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is it correct that you first told Mr. Cahill
that this was merely a chance meeting with Levitsky?
Mr. Greenberg. I do not recall.
Mr. Haas. I was present. I don't recollect that having been
said.
The Chairman. Let me ask the witness. Is it your testimony
today that you do not recall having first told Cahill that the
meeting with Levitsky was just a chance meeting and
subsequently changed that story and said that it had been
arranged by Levitsky.
Mr. Greenberg. Could you repeat that?
[The reporter reread the question.]
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. I do not recall having said that.
The Chairman. Did he suggest where you might get another
job?
Mr. Greenberg. Who, sir?
The Chairman. Levitsky?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. I didn't tell Levitsky that I left
for any security reason whatsoever.
The Chairman. Just try and tell me what he said.
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. We did not discuss going to work,
where I should go to work.
The Chairman. You were out of a job and he called you up
and asked you why you left and what your plans were for the
future. Is that right?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you tell him where you were going to
work?
Mr. Greenberg. I told him, sir, that I had considered going
into business with my family but it had not worked out and I
did not quite know what I was doing. I was unemployed.
The Chairman. This was how long after you quit?
Mr. Greenberg. It was between the period.
The Chairman. About how long?
Mr. Greenberg. About three weeks.
The Chairman. Just try and answer these questions. They are
very simple.
And that is the last time you have seen him?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Just a few other questions. I wish you'd quit
acting as though you were under suspicion or a defendant in a
lawsuit.
Mr. Greenberg. I am just scared.
The Chairman. We are just trying to get the complete story
of what occurred at Fort Monmouth and piecing it together. We
are interested in this man Levitsky. We would like to get any
information from you you can give us about him. With his
background he must have had some reason to contact you. He
contacted you once and apparently you weren't suitable for what
he had in mind. Therefore, we'd like to know what he asked you,
what the conversation was. If you had been suitable for his
purpose, I assume he would have contacted you more times.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any idea why Levitsky called you and
took you out and asked you these questions?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. I have none at all because nothing
was said that night to give me any indication of any wrong
doing whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't it seem somewhat unusual to you?
Mr. Greenberg. As I told you before, I was so befuddled and
worried about myself the only thing I thought unusual was on
myself.
Mr. Cohn. Why did you resign from Telecommunications
Laboratory?
Mr. Greenberg. I was forced to resign by the president of
the company as a result of an alleged security break that
supposedly was my fault.
Mr. Cohn. What security break?
Mr. Greenberg. I removed a document one day to work on
because I was specifically ordered to complete a certain report
on the document for the following day.
Mr. Cohn. Was it a graph showing the results of guided
missile tests?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. The answer is ``No?''
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. What happened to the document?
Mr. Greenberg. I brought it back the next day.
The Chairman. They found out you had taken it and asked you
to resign?
Mr. Greenberg. I told them I had taken it. I went to the
personnel man and told him exactly what happened and
approximately six weeks later Admiral Holman, president of the
company, asked me to resign.
The Chairman. Were any other classified documents ever
found in your house? Did you ever have any other classified
documents in your house?
Mr. Greenberg. I did have a document, sir, that I was
working on that became classified and that I, myself, had
written and I worked on them at home in various stages of
preparation.
The Chairman. Was your apartment or room ever searched by
anyone from the Signal Corps or from army intelligence?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir, by the FBI.
The Chairman. Your apartment was searched by the FBI?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. And the material which counsel handed us in a
brown envelop is the only material found in your apartment?
Mr. Greenberg. That isn't quite so.
Mr. Haas. They still have a notebook and still have a roll
of what my client thinks is unexposed film and, I believe, that
graph.
Mr. Cohn. They picked up a graph, didn't they, having to do
with guided missiles?
Mr. Greenberg. They picked up a graph but I do wish you
wouldn't overrate that scrap of paper. That entire situation
has caused me much grief and has shamed and hurt me greatly. I
do hope that these hearings ultimately bring out the truth of
the situation.
You see, sir, our projects at the Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory was always pushed and on
practically advance moments we would have to go out and take
data because for some reason we were always faced with
cancellation of the project from the government for some
reason; and we used to go out on flight tests and didn't finish
on time and would work until all hours of the night trying to
get data and in getting this data we would allow a recorder to
flow on continuously taking the data of this. Maybe one foot in
ten to twenty yards might be worthwhile data. This would then
be gathered and brought back in the laboratory the next day and
soldered. We would then select the pertinent data and the rest
was stored in a big envelop and later when I left I turned it
over to A. M. Lavine. This one little thing neatly wrapped up
and contained no useful data, I am sure, must have been left in
my brief case and when I put it in the closet it fell out and
fell to the floor. I had no idea it was there. Had I known so,
I would have returned it to the lab.
The Chairman. Could you tell us why the FBI came and
searched your apartment?
Mr. Greenberg. Mostly because of documents--there was also
another item in the case. A man named Sarant. Now, one day when
Mr. Cahill approached me, he asked me if I knew a man by the
name of Sarant.
The Chairman. Alfred Sarant?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes. I thought a great deal. I have no
recollection of him. He showed me a picture. The picture did
not ring a bell. I do not know him. Mr. Cahill then informed me
that this man was in some of my classes when I attended
Brooklyn Polytech, going for my master's degree, 1943 to 1947.
He asked me if that helped my remembrance. I have no
recollection of this man.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question. When you took
this document, were you using it in connection with your work?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir. I had finished 80 percent of the
work on the document. That 80 percent was left in the place.
The part I was working on had to do with packaging and marking
crates and cartons this would be shipped in.
The Chairman. Was this a document you yourself prepared?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. I was making a revision of it I was
making a revision which in turn was acted upon by my superiors,
Mr. Grig and Mr. Lavine.
The Chairman. One other question. I am curious about why
you went back and reported that the documents were out. Would
that be a normal thing to do?
Mr. Greenberg. I thought it would, sir. I thought if I had
got the company in some difficult situation I owed it to them
to inform them of the situation, so I did so the following day.
The Chairman. Had there been some difficult situation
before you informed them?
Mr. Greenberg. The difficult situation, Mr. Cahill
approached me the evening before.
The Chairman. He approached you before you informed your
superiors?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how he found out?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. The FBI man contacted me while I
was walking home from work.
The Chairman. And you had been working at the Signal Corps
how long?
Mr. Greenberg. I never worked for the Signal Corps
Laboratory. I worked for a private concern, telecommunications
laboratory, which is a subsidiary of IT&T.
The Chairman. You had worked there how long at that time?
Mr. Greenberg. Nine and a half years.
The Chairman. Do you know why they came up to you that
particular night?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. I have no idea.
The Chairman. Did he ask you about the documents you had
with you?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir. That was the one I had with me.
The Chairman. Could you tell us what happened?
Mr. Greenberg. Mr. Cahill came up and asked me to come with
him. I said, ``Surely.'' My father was waiting for me. My
father came along with me. We both went down to the FBI office
and had a talk with Mr. Cahill and Cahill asked if he could
search the house and I said, ``Surely, come along,'' and that
is what he found.
The Chairman. At what time was this document you had with
you, under your arm, handed over to Cahill?
Mr. Greenberg. During the questioning Cahill didn't ask me
immediately about the document. He asked me about Sarant.
The Chairman. How did he find out about the document?
Mr. Greenberg. He asked me what I had in my envelop.
The Chairman. I'm sure your counsel will agree with me that
it is very unusual for a man from the FBI to come along--to ask
you to come down to FBI headquarters. They don't normally
contact you that way. He must have known you were taking
classified material home.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. Getting back to the record, were you
suspended then?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir. I was never suspended.
The Chairman. Did you quit then?
Mr. Greenberg. Six or seven weeks later.
The Chairman. Did you go back and work in the plant?
Mr. Greenberg. I continued working and doing my job to the
best of my ability.
The Chairman. And one final question. Where are you working
now?
Mr. Greenberg. Lambda Electronic Corporation.
The Chairman. Do they do classified work?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir, none whatsoever.
The Chairman. Do they do any work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Greenberg. We make commercial products. The Signal
Corps possibly buys this equipment. We make power supplies for
electrical equipment. They are open to all people who desire to
buy them. I do hope the Signal Corps does.
The Chairman. They are open to anyone?
Mr. Greenberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Nothing secret?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have never joined the Communist party?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any Communist meetings?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to join?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Young Communist League?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never belonged to anything which you knew
had been listed as a front for the Communist party?
Mr. Greenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Haas. Senator, may I say this. I took great care to
show Greenberg the list. I have three supplements of the
federal register of subversive organizations as listed by the
attorney general and he will tell you, if you wish, under oath,
that he never did associate with any of them at any time. That
is correct, isn't it?
Mr. Greenberg. That is correct. I have never had
association with any of them.
The Chairman. That is all. May I say, in accordance with
our regular custom, your name will not be given to the press.
No one will know you were here unless you tell them you were
here. If you see the newspaper men outside you can tell them
``yes'' or ``no'' or whatever you want to. I just want to make
it clear, to keep from embarrassing whoever appears here.
Unfortunately, the mere fact that you appeared before this
committee might create the impression that you are guilty of
improper conduct. It is merely that we are trying to piece
together the picture which now appears to be a very serious and
dangerous one, that an espionage ring is operating at Fort
Monmouth. The fact that we call a witness doesn't mean that we
think they are part of that ring. We merely call in everyone we
can to get the picture fitted together. Unless you tell the
press, they will not know you are here.
TESTIMONY OF ISADORE SOLOMON
The Chairman. In the matter now in hearing, do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. I do.
The Chairman. Where are you working now?
Mr. Solomon. Fort Monmouth Publications Agency.
The Chairman. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Solomon. Since I came out of service in 1946. November
1946-the 6th of November was my reinstatement date.
The Chairman. Had you worked there prior to being in
service?
Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you tell us when you first worked there?
Mr. Solomon. June 8, 1942, I started Civilian Training
School in Long Branch, which was part of Fort Monmouth.
The Chairman. In other words, you started to work there in
1942 and you worked there until when?
Mr. Solomon. I reported for induction April 2nd and entered
on active duty May 6, 1943.
The Chairman. And have you been handling classified
material? How high?
Mr. Solomon. Secret.
The Chairman. Not any top secret?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. How many children do you have?
Mr. Solomon. Two children. One is fourteen months and the
other is six and a half.
The Chairman. Your wife doesn't work for the government?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. Has she ever worked for the government?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Mr. Solomon. One brother and one half brother and one half
sister.
Wait now. I understand that my mother has remarried and the
man she remarried has two daughters, I believe.
The Chairman. Do you have a full brother?
Mr. Solomon. One full brother.
The Chairman. Is he working for the government?
Mr. Solomon. He was in the marine corps, a lieutenant. I
understand now that he has been discharged. I haven't seen him.
I don't know.
The Chairman. You don't know whether he is working for the
government?
Mr. Solomon. The last I heard through my father he was
going to school.
The Chairman. Your father is not working for the
government?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. How about your two half sisters?
Mr. Solomon. I don't know what they are doing. I don't even
know them.
The Chairman. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Solomon. I went to school at Patterson, New Jersey.
The Chairman. When did you graduate from school?
Mr. Solomon. I didn't graduate.
The Chairman. When did you leave?
Mr. Solomon. I believe it was 1939. I was in the third year
of high school.
The Chairman. Where did you start to work?
Mr. Solomon. I worked for Spevak Electric Supplies and
worked for myself as an electrical contractor.
The Chairman. Have you been suspended?
Mr. Solomon. Yes.
The Chairman. When?
Mr. Solomon. October 19th. I have the suspension notice in
my pocket.
The Chairman. Could I see that?
You are in the publications branch, now, that has to do
with the publication of the----
Mr. Solomon. Text books, TMs and FMs. Field manuals and
technical manuals.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Communist party?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Solomon. Yes.
The Chairman. Roughly how many and when?
Mr. Solomon. Well, they were prior to 1938 or 1939. I will
say that. It was before I met my wife and before I went to work
for Spevak so it was quite a ways back. In other words, about
the time I was going to high school.
The Chairman. Did you attend any after you left high
school?
Mr. Solomon. No.
The Chairman. The answer is no?
Mr. Solomon. No.
The Chairman. When did you graduate from high school?
Mr. Solomon. I didn't graduate.
The Chairman. You did not go to college? This is high
school you are talking about?
Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many years did you attend high school?
Mr. Solomon. I had a broken career in high school. I went
two years and left school for a year and then returned for a
while. Three years.
The Chairman. When did you say you left high school?
Mr. Solomon. Finally, I think it was in 1939. I don't know
the exact dates. I entered Central High School in February of
1936 and I went until 1938. I imagine I fulfilled two years and
then I was out for a year. I went back in 1939, about eight
months.
The Chairman. Would you care to tell us the occasion of
your quitting high school?
Mr. Solomon. I had a job with Spevak Electric and I would
fall asleep doing my homework. I wasn't doing satisfactory. I
couldn't keep up both.
The Chairman. You were going to school and working at the
same time?
Mr. Solomon. Yes.
The Chairman. How old are you now?
Mr. Solomon. Thirty-two. Thirty-three in February.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Young Pioneers?
Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was that a Communist group?
Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know that was a Communist group while
you were a member?
Mr. Solomon. Yes, but I was too young to realize much. I
was under my mother's influence.
The Chairman. Is your mother a Communist?
Mr. Solomon. She is a Communist as far as I know.
The Chairman. This was back in 1933 and 1934 when you were
rather young?
Mr. Solomon. I was only about twelve years old.
The Chairman. And being only twelve years old, not of your
own free will, your mother told you to join?
Mr. Solomon. That is right.
The Chairman. When was the last time you went to Communist
meetings with your mother, if you recall?
Mr. Solomon. I couldn't say, sir. I can't recall.
The Chairman. Well, if there were testimony that you went
to a Communist meeting in 1941, would you say that was a
mistake or would you think that might be true?
Mr. Solomon. It is possible it might be true but I don't
recall it.
The Chairman. You were in service in 1945?
Mr. Solomon. I came home from service in April of 1945.
The Chairman. Did you go to any Communist meetings in 1945?
Mr. Solomon. No.
The Chairman. You are quite sure of that?
Mr. Solomon. I am quite certain of that.
The Chairman. None since 1945?
Mr. Solomon. Oh, no.
The Chairman. Was your wife a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Solomon. Definitely not.
The Chairman. Did your wife take a rather great interest in
the Judy Coplon case?
Mr. Solomon. Well, we were both interested as far as news
value is concerned, but that is all.
The Chairman. Did she express the opinion that Judy Coplon
was a nice young lady and was framed?
Mr. Solomon. No, not to me. I don't recall it.
The Chairman. Well, if we have witnesses who testified to
that, would you say they were telling the truth or not?
Mr. Solomon. I don't know how to answer that, sir. That is
rather difficult. I mean if she did make a statement of that
type expressing a personal opinion from what she gathered in
the newspapers, my wife is not too clear a reader.
The Chairman. I understand the mere fact that she thought
Judy Coplon was framed doesn't label her as a Communist.
Mr. Solomon. That is right.
The Chairman. Your mother, I understand, has worked for the
election of Communist party candidates.
Mr. Solomon. She also ran on the ballot at various times,
as I recall, when I was a kid more or less.
The Chairman. Do you see your mother regularly?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. When was the last time you saw her?
Mr. Solomon. Approximately four years ago. We had a little
difficulty with the man she later married and at that time we
broke off complete relationship, nor have I seen any of her
family.
The Chairman. Your stepfather is a Communist too, I gather?
Mr. Solomon. He has Communist leanings. I couldn't say
honestly that I know him to be a member of the party or not. I
do know he is inclined towards communism.
The Chairman. May I say, Mr. Solomon, that your situation
creates, I think you realize, a difficult one for the army. I
am personally impressed by your testimony. I think I would
personally be willing to give you a job if I were handling out
jobs.
However, with it, I can see they would have a great deal of
difficulty passing in your case. Here you have both a mother, a
brother, and a stepfather who are Communists, both active in
Communist organizations?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. Is this incorrect?
Mr. Solomon. That I will contradict. I don't ever recall my
brother having had any connection with communism. In fact, in
our youth we were both active in the YMCA. I know from having
lived with my brother that when he went away to college he was
definitely opposed to it.
The Chairman. Is he in college now?
Mr. Solomon. I understand so. I haven't seen him since my
oldest son was born. He is six and a half now.
The Chairman. So you wouldn't have any knowledge as to
whether or not your brother is a Communist?
Mr. Solomon. I recall our youth.
The Chairman. We have statements that your brother is
active in Communist movements. I am trying to give you a
picture of the difficulty. Your mother is a Communist; your
stepfather is a Communist.
Mr. Solomon. I don't see him as a stepfather.
The Chairman. Let me go over this, then you can comment if
you want to. Your brother--we have information that your
brother is active in the Communist movement. The family home
was in effect a Communist headquarters in the middle thirties.
Your uncle was district leader in the Communist party in New
York State, active in the Communist party. The latest report I
have on him is 1950, 1949 or 1950. I don't know which. Your
aunt has been a ward leader of the Communist party. In handling
secret material they have got to give people the benefit of the
doubt. Also, the testimony here that your wife defended Judy
Coplon, said she was framed by the FBI I am giving that as one
part of the picture.
They would have great difficulty reinstating you even if
you are being as honest as you appear. You do appear to be a
very honest young man.
Mr. Solomon. I hope I am.
The Chairman. I merely mentioned that, not as a part of the
hearing but to give you a picture of the tremendous difficulty.
I realize a man isn't responsible for what his mother does, his
sister, aunts and uncles. If so, all of us would be in jail.
Mr. Solomon. Does the fact I have completely broken off
relationship with my mother's family have any bearing on it. I
have felt for a long, long time that she was wrong and, well, I
couldn't conscientiously associate with her or her family
because of it.
One reason is that my political leanings are of another
personal description, which is natural to happen, and I can
produce witnesses to the fact that I have not had any
association with them since about four years and I can also
produce witnesses as to what my actions have been in the last
few years in Red Bank and Red Bank vicinity where people got to
know me.
The Chairman. When did you get married?
Mr. Solomon. 1941.
The Chairman. Did you live in your mother's home until that
time?
Mr. Solomon. I lived home, yes. We got married and had our
own apartment.
The Chairman. You set up your own apartment?
Mr. Solomon. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you ever removed any classified material
from the Signal Corps?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know of anyone removing any of that
material?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. I believe you have testified you were not a
member of the Communist party and never belonged to it?
Mr. Solomon. That is right.
The Chairman. Were you solicited to join the party?
Mr. Solomon. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you solicited to join the Young
Communist League?
Mr. Solomon. Yes.
The Chairman. Who solicited you to join that?
Mr. Solomon. Well, Abe Bart or Maxie Bart.
The Chairman. Do you know where they are now?
Mr. Solomon. The last I saw of them they were living in
Patterson at, I believe, 22 Carrol Street.
The Chairman. Have you ever given the FBI any information
about the people who attended these Communist meetings?
Mr. Solomon. At one occasion I was spoken to by someone
from the FBI. It was pertaining to a man classed as my
stepfather. At that time in the discussion we did mention a few
of the people, a few of the fellows and girls I grew up with
who were then and still probably are now Communists.
The Chairman. Would you have any objection to sitting down
with someone from the bureau and giving them all the
information you can?
Mr. Solomon. I'd be glad to sit down with anyone. Having
been away so long from Patterson and not having any connection,
I don't know what value it might be.
The Chairman. Some of it might seem unimportant to you.
Ninety percent of it probably would be of no importance.
Mr. Solomon. I would be glad to sit down if information I
have is useful.
The Chairman. I wonder if you will do this. You gave us Abe
and Maxie Bart at 22 Carrol Street in Patterson.
Mr. Solomon. I believe that is the address.
The Chairman. I wonder if you would go home and give us a
list of everyone you know or that you knew back in those days
when you use to attend Communist party meetings.
Mr. Solomon. I will do my best.
The Chairman. If you would, that will be helpful.
We will notify you if we want you again. No one will know
you are here unless you tell them. It is a rule of the
committee not to give out names of witnesses. If you meet the
press, you can tell them ``yes'' or ``no'' or whatever you want
to. Sometimes they drift down the hall.
Mr. Solomon. If there is information you want? Do you want
those statements?
The Chairman. No, you will want that yourself, I imagine.
Thank you very much. That will be all.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM SALTZMAN
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand?
In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Saltzman. I do.
The Chairman. Your name is Saltzman, William?
Mr. Saltzman. S-a-l-t-z-m-a-n, and the first name is
William.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Saltzman, were you employed by the
Signal Corps at any time?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. From when to when?
Mr. Saltzman. December 1941 until the present.
Mr. Cohn. You are working there now?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work?
Mr. Saltzman. I work at the Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. What clearance do you have?
Mr. Saltzman. My clearance was up to secret.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever suspended?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes, I was.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Saltzman. In 1951.
Mr. Cohn. On what charge?
Mr. Saltzman. A charge that I was alleged to have said that
I favored the Russian form of government to that of the United
States.
Mr. Cohn. Did you deny that?
Mr. Saltzman. I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you favor it in any way?
Mr. Saltzman. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever say that?
Mr. Saltzman. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know how that came to be reported?
Mr. Saltzman. I didn't have the slightest idea at the time
and still don't.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the only charge?
Mr. Saltzman. Well, that the economic system--it was a
split charge.
Mr. Cohn. It was a split charge?
Mr. Saltzman. It was favoring the Russian form of
government and their economic system.
Mr. Cohn. Anything else?
Mr. Saltzman. That is all.
Mr. Cohn. What happened to your suspension when you
appeared before the first loyalty board?
Mr. Saltzman. What happened? I was separated and it was
appealed.
The Chairman. Do I understand that your commanding officer
first suspended you?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes.
The Chairman. Then you went before the First Army loyalty
board and they approved the suspension in order to separate
you?
Mr. Saltzman. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know who was sitting on that board?
Mr. Saltzman. There were three. Colonel Mattox was the
chairman. I don't recall the civilians.
The Chairman. What witnesses appeared against you?
Mr. Saltzman. No witnesses. Two were called. One did not
appear at all and one wrote a letter to the board saying he
would not appear.
The Chairman. What were the names of those two witnesses?
Mr. Saltzman. I don't know.
The Chairman. That wasn't divulged to you?
Mr. Saltzman. No.
The Chairman. You don't know who they called?
Mr. Saltzman. No.
The Chairman. Did they tell you they called two witnesses?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes.
The Chairman. Did they show you the letter they had
written?
Mr. Saltzman. No, they didn't.
The Chairman. So no one appeared before the board except
you yourself?
Mr. Saltzman. That is right.
The Chairman. What did you tell the board?
Mr. Saltzman. Well, I told them that these charges against
me were false and I never made such statements.
The Chairman. Do you know Barry Bernstein?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes.
The Chairman. Was he a Communist?
Mr. Saltzman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Were his views pro-Communist?
Mr. Saltzman. I can't say. I don't believe so, no.
The Chairman. Did he believe in our form of government?
Mr. Saltzman. I think he did.
The Chairman. He never said anything to you which lead you
to believe that he was?
Mr. Saltzman. He didn't, no.
The Chairman. Did you ever see the Daily Worker in the
laboratory?
Mr. Saltzman. No.
The Chairman. Did you get a copy of your loyalty hearing?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes, sir, I did. It is with my attorney.
The Chairman. I wonder if you could procure that and submit
it to us and we will return it to you?
Mr. Saltzman. I will contact him.
The Chairman. Either you or your attorney can contact Mr.
Buckley.
Just so there will be no question, you will be ordered to
produce a copy of your loyalty board hearing. Who is your
attorney?
Mr. Saltzman. Mr. Katchen of Long Branch.
M. Cohn. Do you know a Mr. William Johnstone Jones?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes, I do. I worked in his section.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have any reason to think at any time he
was a Communist?
Mr. Saltzman. No, I have no reason.
The Chairman. Your testimony is that you are not now a
Communist and have never been. Is that right?
Mr. Saltzman. That is right.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to join the Communist
party?
Mr. Saltzman. Never solicited.
The Chairman. And you never saw the Daily Worker in the
laboratory.
Mr. Saltzman. That is right. I never saw it there.
The Chairman. You never took the Daily Worker to the
laboratory?
Mr. Saltzman. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you ever live with Bernstein?
Mr. Saltzman. No.
The Chairman. Just a social acquaintance?
Mr. Saltzman. No. Just employer-employee relationship. He
was assistant section chief.
The Chairman. Is he your boss?
Mr. Saltzman. Well, he was above me, yes.
The Chairman. Do you handle classified material?
Mr. Saltzman. I do not handle classified material.
The Chairman. You have not been suspended?
Mr. Saltzman. I am suspended now.
The Chairman. When were you suspended?
Mr. Saltzman. October 21st.
Mr. Cohn. When did you go to work at Fort Monmouth, the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Saltzman. December 1941.
Mr. Cohn. Have you worked there continuously ever since?
Mr. Saltzman. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Cohn. And you had access to secret material until you
were suspended in 1951?
Mr. Saltzman. No, my clearance was up to secret. However,
the type of work I happened to be doing was either unclassified
or restricted.
Mr. Cohn. When you were reinstated you were reinstated at
your old salary but you no longer had clearance to handle
classified material?
Mr. Saltzman. I was reinstated at my old salary and up to
the clearance I had up to the date I was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. You still have that clearance?
Mr. Saltzman. I had it until the date I was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work were you doing at Evans Signal
Laboratory just before you were suspended?
Mr. Saltzman. I was doing work on commercial tube testers,
accumulating tube test data.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. Will you have your lawyer get in touch with
Mr. Buckley and submit that.
Incidentally, your name will not be given to anyone unless
you tell them. You can tell them if you want to.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL SACK
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?
In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Sack. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Your name is Samuel Sack?
Mr. Sack. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Sack, just to bring the senator up to date,
you work for Espey Manufacturing Company, which is a contractor
for the Signal Corps. You, in 1936, registered as a Communist
and in 1940 and 1941 you lived with Joel Barr?
Mr. Sack. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Now, I asked you to see whether or not you could
recall certain things such as people who visited Barr etc. Have
you been able to recall? Have you talked to your wife?
Mr. Sack. I did speak to my wife and apparently they had no
friends visit them.
Mr. Cohn. Nobody at all came to see them?
Mr. Sack. [No answer.]
Mr. Cohn. Are there any other questions which I asked that
you can give fuller answers to?
Mr. Sack. You wanted to know if I could recall the name of
presumably Mrs. Barr. I wasn't able to and I asked my wife. She
said the name was Layne or Elaine. She was not sure. We
presumed the last name was Barr. She does not know the last
name.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever belong to the Ninth A.D. Communist
Party Club?
Mr. Sack. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. There isn't anything else you recall you want to
tell us?
Mr. Sack. Nothing I can recall now, sir.
The Chairman. You say you did not belong to this Communist
club?
Mr. Sack. That is true.
The Chairman. You did?
Mr. Sack. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Communist party?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, I did not.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party
today?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. I am not.
The Chairman. How long did you live with Barr?
Mr. Sack. Approximately two months, sir.
The Chairman. And where was that?
Mr. Sack. That was in Long Branch, New Jersey.
The Chairman. What year was that?
Mr. Sack. I believe it was the latter part of 1940.
The Chairman. Do you know where Barr is now?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, I do not.
The Chairman. When did you last see him?
Mr. Sack. The latter part of 1940 was the last time I ever
saw Mr. Barr.
The Chairman. Do you know Barr's wife?
Mr. Sack. No. I did not, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings of the
Communist party?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, I have not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to attend any?
Mr. Sack. Have I ever been solicited to attend any?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sack. Not that I recall.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to join the Communist
party?
Mr. Sack. Not that I recall.
The Chairman. Before you leave, one other question. We have
the affidavit here that you were a member of the Communist
party in the Ninth A.D., Assembly District, 16th Election
District, Brooklyn, New York. The date, time and place is here.
I am not saying this is true and you are not telling the truth.
I merely tell you this for your protection in view of the
conflict. If what you say is true, it means that somebody is
not telling the committee the truth and we will, of necessity,
have to run it down. If there is any doubt in your mind as to
whether or not you belonged to the Communist party, you have
the right to refuse to answer any questions, if you do not care
to answer. Seeing that you have no lawyer, I would like to
advise you of this. I would say that either you answer the
questions truthfully or refuse to answer. We have got in this
investigation--I don't know so far how many people, who will be
brought before the grand jury for perjury, a number of others
for contempt. If you want to think this over and change your
answer, okay.
Your answer is that you never belonged to the Communist
party?
Mr. Sack. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. And you never attended Communist party
meetings?
Mr. Sack. Not to my knowledge, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have any friends whom you know or have
reason to suspect are Communists?
Mr. Sack. The only one I have reason to suspect is a
Communist that I knew was Barr.
The Chairman. He is the only one?
Mr. Sack. Yes.
The Chairman. You never went to any Communist meetings with
him?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, never.
The Chairman. He never asked you to attend any?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, he did not.
The Chairman. How did it happen that you started rooming
with Barr?
Mr. Sack. As I stated previously, at the time we moved to
Long Branch, New Jersey, we obtained a furnished room which
was, as far as we were concerned, temporary. My wife in her
attempts to find an apartment met presumably Mrs. Barr who
stated she had located an apartment and she would be interested
in having somebody share that apartment with her in order to
share the expenses. My wife looked at the apartment and thought
it was satisfactory and we took it.
The Chairman. In other words, two families lived in the
same apartment?
Mr. Sack. That is true, sir.
The Chairman. How many rooms did the apartment have?
Mr. Sack. Three rooms and bath, if I remember.
The Chairman. Two bedrooms?
Mr. Sack. That is right.
The Chairman. And this was in 1940, you say?
Mr. Sack. The latter part of 1940, if I remember.
The Chairman. I assume there was a housing shortage at that
time?
Mr. Sack. I believe there was, sir.
The Chairman. How much did you pay?
Mr. Sack. I don't recall the exact amount but I think it
was in the neighborhood of $75.00.
The Chairman. Had your wife been a friend of Mrs. Barr's
prior to that time?
Mr. Sack. Never knew her before that time.
The Chairman. You don't know how she happened to meet her?
Mr. Sack. Only by virtue of the fact she was looking for an
apartment.
The Chairman. You did not know Barr before?
Mr. Sack. Never knew Barr before.
The Chairman. Was Barr working with you at the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. He was not to my knowledge. At least
that it what I was told.
The Chairman. What is his first name?
Mr. Sack. Joel.
The Chairman. When did you first have any reason to believe
or suspect that Barr was a Communist or espionage agent?
Mr. Sack. I think it was approximately--I don't recall the
exact time--it was approximately a year ago, I believe, when
the FBI questioned me as to my knowledge regarding Barr. That
was the first time that I had any information to the fact that
he was a Communist.
The Chairman. Why were you discharged from the Fort
Monmouth Laboratories? Do you know?
Mr. Sack. I understand that I was discharged for being a
Communist. That is what I understand.
The Chairman. And do you know why they thought you were a
Communist?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I do. Because I registered as a Communist in
1936.
The Chairman. And were you a Communist when you registered?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, I was not.
The Chairman. When you registered you pledged to support
the Communist party?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. What did you think you were doing? Registry is
indication that you believe in membership, in the party which
you registered.
Mr. Cohn. When you registered Communist, did you intend to
support the Communist party?
Mr. Sack. No, sir, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. Did you intend to support any other party?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. As I attempted to explain previously, it
is rather difficult to explain away a rather idiotic move.
The Chairman. Can you tell us now why you registered
Communist? In other words, if I go down and register Democrat,
which I did at one time, I am now happy to be a Republican, I
had a reason for doing it, a very good reason. It was a very
important move but not nearly as important in my mind as your
registering as a Communist. Can you give us a reason why you
happened to register as a Communist?
Mr. Sack. I may have had a little mistaken idea they had a
right to be a legal party. That is all.
The Chairman. How old were you then?
Mr. Sack. I believe I was twenty-four years old at the
time.
The Chairman. Twenty-three?
Mr. Cohn. Twenty-four he said.
The Chairman. Did you vote the Communist ticket?
Mr. Sack. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever vote or register in any
political party?
Mr. Sack. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What party?
Mr. Sack. Democratic party, Republican party.
The Chairman. I am not interested in how you vote. I am
only asking so we can check. I am not interested in what your
politics are.
The Chairman. When did you last register either Democrat or
Republican?
Mr. Sack. I registered this last year and the year before
Republican. Prior to that I registered as a Democrat.
The Chairman. I want you to understand, I don't care
whether you are a Democrat or Republican. I am only curious to
know whether you dropped out of the Communist party and
registered in what we call a different party. When did you
first register in a party other than the Communist party, if
you recall?
Mr. Sack. I believe that----
The Chairman. Did you recall the first year, roughly, when
you registered in some party other than the Communist party?
Mr. Sack. I believe the next year.
The Chairman. Would you remember where you registered so
that can be checked?
Mr. Sack. Yes, sir. In Brooklyn, I believe.
The Chairman. Could that be Ninth Assembly District, 16th
Election District, County of Kings?
Mr. Sack. I can't remember the election district but I
think it was the County of Kings.
The Chairman. I think we have no further question.
Incidentally, unless you tell someone you were here they
won't know. If you care to tell anyone you have appeared, you
have a right to do it. The committee does not tell the press
the names of any witnesses that appear in executive session. If
he cares to discuss his being here, if he cares to discuss
anything at all, he has an absolute privilege to do it.
[Whereupon, the hearing adjourned at 5:00 p.m.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Following the testimony of Professor
Wendell H. Furry (1907-1984), Senator McCarthy sent a telegram
to Harvard President Nathan Pusey--a prominent critic of the
senator's tactics--asking the university's attitude toward
faculty who ``refuse to state whether they are Communists.''
When Furry again declined to testify at a public hearing in
January 1954, a Boston grand jury indicted him and a Harvard
research assistant, Leon J. Kamin, for contempt of Congress.
Senator McCarthy was subpoenaed to testify at Kamin's trial,
but after crowds cheered the senator's arrival, federal judge
Bailey Aldrich (an Eisenhower appointee) dismissed the jury and
heard the case himself. Judge Aldrich held that the
subcommittee had no right to engage in a ``fishing expedition''
in the hope of turning up something discreditable, and he
acquitted Kamin on January 5, 1956. In June 1956, the
government dropped its prosecution of Professor Furry, who
remained at Harvard until his retirement in 1977. Leon Kamin
later chaired the psychology department at Princeton
University.
Wendell Furry testified in public session on November 1,
1953 and January 15, 1954; Sylvia Berke (1920-1977) testified
publicly on December 14; Diana Wolman and Benjamin Wolman on
December 15, 1953; Vivian Glassman Pataki, Abraham Brothman
(1913-1980), Norman Gaboriault (1914-1979), and Harvey Sachs
did not testify in public.]
----------
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met (pursuant to Senate Resolution 40,
agreed to January 30, 1953) in room 36, Federal Building, New
York, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman) presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; G. David Schine, chief consultant; George
Anastos, assistant counsel; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant
counsel; James Juliana, investigator.
STATEMENT OF VICTOR RABINOWITZ
Mr. Cohn. Is Vivian Glassman [Pataki] here?
Mr. Rabinowitz. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You are her counsel and you know she is under
subpoena?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Why isn't she here?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Because the notice she received was not in
my opinion or hers reasonable.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to have a contempt
meeting. We have a telegram acknowledging that the notice was
received.
Mr. Rabinowitz. She called me at midnight last night. She
received a telegram at 7:00 p.m. for an appearance at 11:00
this morning.
Mr. Cohn. Where does she live?
Mr. Rabinowitz. In the city.
Mr. Cohn. How far is it?
Mr. Rabinowitz. It is certainly not too far to get here.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of period do you think she should get
when she is under continuing subpoena; when her husband is
dodging service?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I would say a reasonable time would be
seventy-two hours.
Mr. Cohn. I think we should direct Mr. Rabinowitz to
produce the witness by two o'clock, otherwise we should have
her cited for contempt.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I am perfectly willing to advise and tell
her she ought to----
The Chairman. What is her address?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I don't know that I have her address with
me. Yes, I have. It is 443 East Eighth Street.
The Chairman. She got the telegram?
Mr. Rabinowitz. She told me she got it.
The Chairman. Do you know where Mr. Pataki is?
Mr. Rabinowitz. No.
The Chairman. You are not his lawyer?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Well, I did represent him about nine months
ago, perhaps a year ago. I have not represented him since.
The Chairman. You have no idea where he is?
Mr. Rabinowitz. At the moment?
The Chairman. Or yesterday?
Mr. Rabinowitz. No, I have not seen him for some weeks.
The Chairman. Do you have any idea where he is?
Mr. Rabinowitz. No.
The Chairman. Did Mrs. Pataki tell you where he was?
Mr. Rabinowitz. No, I didn't ask her.
The Chairman. When did you last see him?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I believe at the time she testified here
which must have been two or three weeks ago.
The Chairman. You saw him then?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I think they came down to the office
together. I have not seen or heard from either of them since,
until last night.
The Chairman. That was two weeks ago?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Whenever it was.
The Chairman. As far as you know they are living together?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I don't think I will answer that, sir. Any
information I have is a result of communications from my
client.
The Chairman. You said he was not your client.
Mr. Rabinowitz. He was my client once upon a time and she
is my client today.
The Chairman. Was he your client two weeks ago?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I had no conversation with him two weeks
ago on this subject. The subject did not come up.
The Chairman. You said you saw him two weeks ago?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know where he was living at that time?
Mr. Rabinowitz. No. There was no occasion for that subject
to arise.
The Chairman. Mr. Rabinowitz, we usually extend every
courtesy to counsel. In this case you are not counsel for Mr.
Pataki. Therefore, you are not here in the position of his
lawyer. Therefore, we shall demand that you tell us anything
about his whereabouts that you know.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I have told you, I know nothing about his
whereabouts.
The Chairman. Do you have any idea where he was living two
weeks ago?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Well, I don't know whether I had any idea.
He did not tell me where he was living and I did not ask him.
If you want Vivian Pataki down here tomorrow----
Mr. Cohn. Don't do us any favors. She is under subpoena and
was given notice and you are her counsel and an officer of the
court and you received notice to produce your client.
Mr. Rabinowitz. She was given entirely inadequate notice. I
do not feel seven o'clock was adequate notice. I know this
committee constantly does it.
The Chairman. Do you have any idea where Pataki was living
when you saw him two weeks ago?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I don't know what you mean by any idea. I
did not ask the man. He came down with his wife and I don't
believe I exchanged ten words with him.
The Chairman. Where do you think he was living at that
time?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I have no idea. I have no reason to believe
they were not living together. Nobody suggested they were
broken up. They seemed to be on friendly terms and I had no
reason to believe they were not living as man and wife.
The Chairman. Her reason for not appearing was not because
she could not get counsel?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I told her I would not represent her today.
I have three witnesses. That is all I am willing to handle
before this committee.
The Chairman. You are willing to represent her tomorrow?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. It is bad enough to have Communists walking
around the street. I don't think the committee--she is under
subpoena, and I don't think she should tell us when she can
come in. I don't feel like waiting for their convenience.
The Chairman. I may say, you are chief counsel and if you
feel the witness is clearly in contempt. She is under subpoena
and her lawyer is here. If you want to cite her, I have no
strong feeling about it. If you want me to order counsel to
produce her this afternoon.
How many witnesses do you have this afternoon?
Mr. Cohn. He has three other witnesses. Lots of lawyers
would be glad to have three witnesses.
The Chairman. My point is, he has three witnesses and he
might have difficulty in locating her.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I don't know where she is.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know what her phone number is?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I have no reason to believe she would be
home.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been in communication with her since
yesterday afternoon?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I told you if you'd listen to what I say
instead of talking so much. I said at twelve o'clock last night
I received a phone call from her.
Mr. Cohn. Did you tell her she was directed to appear here?
Mr. Rabinowitz. She told me that she had received the
telegram; that she had tried to get me earlier in the evening.
Mr. Cohn. The situation is we have a woman we want to
question as to whether or not she is an espionage agent against
the United States. She is under lawful service by this
committee, under continuing subpoena, both she and counsel
lives a few minutes away; her husband is dodging service and we
have information that he was a Communist spy, and he is dodging
process while we sit here and wait and Mr. Rabinowitz tells us
she will come in when she feels like coming in.
The Chairman. If she is not her at two o'clock I will ask
for contempt citation.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I will call her number and if I can reach
her I will tell her what you said. I can tell the committee
that I think it will be perfectly reasonable to come tomorrow.
By that time she would have received two days' notice, and
while I think that is a little short, I am willing to recommend
her appearance at that time. I will not represent her at two
o'clock. She will have to get another lawyer.
The Chairman. We will give her until tomorrow at ten
o'clock.
Make that 10:30, Mr. Rabinowitz.
Mr. Rabinowitz. Can we make it 11:00?
The Chairman. Sure.
TESTIMONY OF WENDELL FURRY (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, OSMOND
FRANKEL)
The Chairman. Mr. Furry, will you raise your right hand and
be sworn?
In this matter now in hearing, do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Furry. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Who is your counsel?
Mr. Furry. Osmond Frankel.
Mr. Cohn. Now, counsel for the Harvard Corporation has
requested that he be allowed to sit in. The chairman granted
him that permission. He now says that he won't.
Could we get your name?
Mr. Furry. Wendell Hinkle Furry.
Mr. Cohn. Your last name is spelled F-u-r-r-y?
Mr. Furry. Right. My middle name is spelled H-i-n-k-l-e.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Furry. Harvard University.
Mr. Cohn. What to you do?
Mr. Furry. Teach.
Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
Mr. Furry. Physics.
Mr. Cohn. Professor of physics?
Mr. Furry. Associate professor.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you taught at
Harvard?
Mr. Furry. I began nineteen years ago. I have had leave of
absence for two and a half years during that time.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Furry. I had half a year's leave in 1950, sabbatical,
and two years' leave of absence from 1943 to 1945 when I was
employed at the Radiation Laboratory, MIT.
Mr. Cohn. Did that laboratory deal with radar?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you do any work for the U.S. government?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Directly or indirectly?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Any for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Furry. I was not aware what the connections were.
Mr. Cohn. Was it classified material?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have access to classified material?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you then a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Furry. On the grounds that this is irrelevant to the
purpose of this committee to investigate my associations and
beliefs under the First Amendment and my privileges under the
Fifth Amendment, I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. Do you feel that answer might tend to
incriminate you?
Mr. Furry. I stand on the ground I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. Is it on the grounds that your answer might
tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Furry. On the Fifth Amendment, sir.
The Chairman. Is it on the grounds that your answer might
tend to incriminate you? That is the ground on which you can
refuse to answer. I am going to order you to answer that
question.
I think you should understand the chair's position. You
see, you can invoke the Fifth Amendment if you feel your answer
might tend to incriminate you. It is up to the chair in each
instance to determine whether or not you are properly invoking
the Fifth Amendment before a committee. I cannot tell whether
you are properly invoking the Fifth Amendment unless you tell
me whether you feel your answer might tend to incriminate you.
I asked you if you feel that your answer to the question of
whether or not you were a Communist while handling classified
material for the U.S. government would tend to incriminate you.
Mr. Frankel. I'd like to suggest that the word ``would''
was inadvertent.
The Chairman. Might. Thank you.
Mr. Furry. With the amendment to the question as provided
by Mr. Frankel and accepted by you, the answer is ``Yes.''
The Chairman. Then you are entitled to the privilege.
When you were on six months' leave in 1950, what did you do
during that time?
Mr. Furry. I traveled to Denmark and worked at the
Institute of Theoretical Physics in Copenhagen.
The Chairman. Now, in your work at Harvard do you handle
any classified government material?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. When was the last time you handled classified
material?
Mr. Furry. Just before I left the Radiation Laboratory.
The Chairman. That was in 1945?
Mr. Furry. 1945.
The Chairman. Did you know any Communists who were working
at the laboratory at that time and handling classified
material?
Mr. Furry. On the same grounds that I have mentioned
before, I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. Did you know of anyone who was removing
classified material from the laboratory and giving that
material either to espionage agents or any other personnel who
were not authorized to receive it?
Mr. Furry. I did not, sir, and I would like to add a
factual statement to that. That I have never had any connection
with espionage or plans for espionage myself and I have never
known of any other person having any connection with such
things.
The Chairman. Did you ever engage in any illegal activities
of any kind in violation of any law, to your knowledge, in
connection with Communists or the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. I decline to answer that on the same
constitutional grounds, except as I stated in the last answer.
The Chairman. Except you say--you refuse to say whether you
were engaged in any illegal activities with the exception of
engaging in or knowing that espionage----
Mr. Furry. Or having any knowledge of any plans on the part
of other persons.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove any classified material
from the laboratories at Fort Monmouth or the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cohn. He said MIT.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Furry. I am perfectly willing to testify that I have
never been at the laboratories at Fort Monmouth.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove classified material from
the MIT laboratories?
Mr. Furry. I can remember only one instance, sir. The
instance in question was when I left the employ of the
laboratory in August 1945. There was a document classified
restricted, which as you know is the lowest brand of
classification, and I would, of course, be entitled to remove
that at any time for my own study. I think the material, this
document, was of general scientific interest and copies of it
have been made available to lots of people since. I took a copy
of it home. I was told the next day by my group leader that had
been improper; that I should wait until the time it was made
available as it was later.
The Chairman. With the exception of this one document
marked restricted, did you ever take home any document marked
confidential or secret?
Mr. Furry. Certainly not to my memory.
The Chairman. And to your knowledge you never had any
confidential or secret material in your home? Is that correct?
Mr. Furry. No, sir, not in my home, only in my office.
The Chairman. Your office is right within the MIT
buildings?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
The Chairman. All of the radar material was in the office
in the MIT buildings?
Mr. Furry. There were one of two classified documents sent
to me on other bases while at Harvard that remained in Harvard.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss radar or your work with
anyone known to you to be a Communist?
[The witness confers with counsel.]
Mr. Furry. I decline the privilege in refusing to answer
that question but I will add that I never discussed the work
outside the laboratory.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer the question.
For the benefit of counsel, I will tell you why I order the
witness to answer that question. As counsel knows, the
privilege under the Fifth Amendment can be waived. When it is
waived, you waive it as to an area, not to a specific question.
You said you never engaged in espionage of any kind and
discussing secret material with a Communist would come under
that field, within that area of investigation. Therefore, you
are ordered to answer the question for the reason that you have
waived your privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Furry. The answer I already gave to that question
covers everything which I am not entitled to the privilege on
and I still stand on the privilege.
The Chairman. Just to let you know the possibility of the
claim so you can't say you misunderstood the question at some
future legal proceeding, I will ask the question again.
While you were working on classified material for the
government, did you discuss that material with anyone known to
you to be a member of the Communist party.
Mr. Furry. My answer as given previously was that I did not
discuss it with anybody outside the laboratories. At least that
is my impression that was the answer given. Beyond that, I
refuse to answer.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer whether you
discussed it with people known to you to be Communists either
in or out of laboratory.
Mr. Furry. My statement to that is that I discussed it only
in the laboratory, which means I only discussed it with
authorized personnel and beyond that answer----
Mr. Cohn. Did you discuss it with any persons in the
laboratory known to you to be members of the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. On that question I claim the privilege.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Furry. I stand on the privilege.
The Chairman. I do that as a courtesy to you. You are
informed that you will be cited for contempt. If you want to
cover up for Communists you may do that. If you want to cover
up espionage agents getting information, you may do that. You
have to take the consequences. We intend to see that any
witness who does anything to destroy this nation will take the
consequences.
Did you ever discuss classified work with anyone whom you
had any reason to believe might be an espionage agent?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you feel that a Communist, a member of the
Communist party, is under such discipline and loyalty to the
Communist party, if the Communists want classified information
he is bound as a Communist to give them that information?
Mr. Furry. I know essentially nothing of the nature of
membership in the Communist party at the present time or what
it might imply.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party
today?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a member last year?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you the years before that?
Mr. Furry. I will testify that I have not been a member of
the Communist party since March 1, 1951.
The Chairman. March 1, 1951? Is that correct?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a member in February 1951?
Mr. Furry. I claim the privilege on that question.
The Chairman. You understand if you were not a member of
the Communist party you can merely say ``No'' and it would in
no way incriminate you?
Mr. Furry. I stand on the privilege on the question, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever give the FBI any information as
to your fellow members of the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. That question has obvious implications and I
will refuse to answer it under the basis of the privilege.
The Chairman. Under the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever voluntarily give the FBI any
information?
Mr. Furry. The word ``voluntarily.'' I have never given it
except when asked.
The Chairman. Did you ever give the FBI information about
the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the basis of
the privilege.
The Chairman. Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that. You cannot
incriminate yourself by giving the FBI information. You are
ordered to answer the question.
[Off-the-record discussion.]
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, if you want my personal opinion,
I don't think he waives any right by answering that question. I
am not in a position to suggest to him what rights he does or
does not waive. I have said that I was going to have him cited
for contempt. This will be submitted to the attorney general
for indictment before a grand jury. I think it would be highly
improper for me to advise him ahead of time as to what rights
he can waive. I merely take the position that the question of
whether or not he gave any information to the FBI, the answer
to that question could in no way incriminate him, and,
therefore, he is not entitled to the Fifth Amendment. For that
reason, I ordered him to testify.
Mr. Frankel. I understand the chairman's position. I don't
know whether the chairman would like my reaction to his
comment.
The Chairman. It would be a little unconventional.
Mr. Frankel. I don't mind being unconventional at times.
It seems if a person is asked whether he has given
information about the Communist party, it puts him in the
position of knowing something about the Communist party.
The Chairman. Not necessarily. I have given the FBI
unlimited information about the Communist party. One way we
have of determining whether a Communist has broken with the
party completely is whether they gave the proper law
enforcement agencies any information he may have.
Mr. Frankel. May I suggest that is outside of the function
of this particular committee.
The Chairman. Keep in mind that while we are primarily
investigating espionage in the Signal Corps and in other
government installations, the committee would have the
jurisdiction to call this man as an employee of an institution
that is partially supported by the government and inquire as to
whether or not he is an espionage agent of a foreign power, a
Communist agent, so that we would have the complete authority
to call him entirely separate and apart from his radar work and
Communist activities.
[Off-the-record discussion.]
Mr. Frankel. I think the witness can answer this particular
question.
Mr. Furry. The answer is ``No, sir.''
The Chairman. Did you ever attend Communist meetings with
your students?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever try to indoctrinate your
students in the Communist philosophy?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the same
grounds.
The Chairman. Did you ever solicit any of your students to
join the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Did you ever hold Communist meetings in your
home?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that and as in the previous
question and this, I would like to claim that it is beyond the
scope of the committee and irrelevant to this investigation.
The Chairman. And you are also invoking the Fifth Amendment
privilege?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know any professors teaching at
Harvard who are members of the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. As of the present, I will answer that I do not.
The Chairman. After it became known around Harvard that you
would be called before this committee, did the president of the
university discuss the matter with you?
Mr. Furry. That is entirely outside the scope of this
committee.
Mr. Cohn. Does Harvard obtain any grant in any way from the
federal government?
Mr. Furry. I am completely unacquainted with that.
Mr. Cohn. They definitely do.
The Chairman. Let's not argue. You will be ordered to
answer the question.
Mr. Furry. I have not, sir. I have forgotten how it was
worded.
The Chairman. Did the president call you in and ask you
whether or not you were a Communist?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. As far as you know, he has expressed no
interest in whether or not you were a member of the Communist
party? As far as you know?
Mr. Furry. As far as I know?
The Chairman. He didn't discuss your appearance here today,
didn't discuss any of the testimony you would give?
Mr. Furry. I believe this is completely irrelevant to the
purpose of the committee. The answer is ``no.''
The Chairman. He didn't discuss your appearance before
other committees investigating communism?
Mr. Furry. You mean the president of the university?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who is the president?
Mr. Furry. Mr. Pusey.
Mr. Cohn. Professor, following any appearance you made
before the House Un-American Activities Committee, were you
suspended from your post at Harvard University?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. No action has ever been taken against you.
Mr. Furry. Yes. Certainly action has been taken against me.
Mr. Cohn. Up at Harvard?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Trace that very briefly.
Mr. Furry. Well, I was, so to speak, placed on trial. My
case was considered.
Mr. Cohn. By whom?
Mr. Furry. By the Harvard Corporation for a number of
weeks. At the end of that time I was rather severely censured
and placed on probation.
Mr. Cohn. You were censured?
Mr. Furry. And placed on probation. Again I will say these
things seem to have nothing to do----
Mr. Cohn. When was it you were placed on probation?
Mr. Furry. Last May.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Furry. Three years.
Mr. Cohn. You still go on teaching your classes?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do any work for the government, directly
or indirectly?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. No research work?
Mr. Furry. I do research work for the university, the sort
of problems chosen by me.
Mr. Cohn. None of it reaches the government directly or
indirectly?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know anybody on the faculty at Harvard who
ever was a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege in answering that.
Mr. Cohn. The same question, MIT?
Mr. Furry. Claim the privilege.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody who worked on radar at the laboratory at
MIT and is now working for the U.S. government, who you then
knew to be a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. I have already claimed the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. You don't think that is information you can give
us. Is that right?
Mr. Furry. Right.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the party in November 1947?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege on that.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Hyman Yamins?
Mr. Furry. I believe I must have known him when we were
students at Harvard. To the best of my knowledge, I haven't
seen him since.
Mr. Cohn. Was he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege on that, sir.
The Chairman. You said you were not a Communist since March
1, 1951. Have you ever attended any Communist party meetings
since that time?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you since that time ever attempt to
indoctrinate your students with the Communist philosophy?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you believe in the Communist system?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you in February of 1951 believe in it?
Mr. Furry. [No answer.]
The Chairman. What is your answer to that question?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege on that, sir.
The Chairman. Would you care to tell us at what period of
time you no longer believed in the Communist system?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege and not answer that,
sir.
The Chairman. Did you drop out of the Communist party, drop
your formal membership for the sole reason that you felt that
to keep your job you could no longer formally associate with
the Communist party? Is that correct?
Mr. Furry. That question contains an implication and I
would claim the privilege under the Fifth Amendment. It does
contain the implication that I was an active Communist.
The Chairman. If that is not a correct implication you can
answer the question. If it is incorrect you can answer.
Mr. Furry. There is no question about that.
The Chairman. Have your beliefs in regard to communism
changed over the past four years, let's say?
Mr. Furry. My beliefs on many subjects, including this,
have gone through changes.
The Chairman. In other words, your beliefs on communism
have changed in the last few years?
Mr. Furry. On that and other subjects.
The Chairman. Do you have a lower opinion of communism than
you had four years ago?
Mr. Furry. I think that is probably true, sir. I have a
lower opinion than I had four years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Professor, one thing here troubles me very much.
You undoubtedly know the committee is investigating subversion
and espionage in the radar field. You are an expert in that
field undoubtedly and know what the transmission of various
secrets to anyone seeking to destroy the United States might
mean to the American people.
In view of that, I wonder if you don't feel you could tell
us the Communist party members who were working on radar
secrets at MIT.
Mr. Furry. I would like to make a comment on that, if I
may; that is that a shelf of something like twenty volumes has
been published which contains all of the work that I have heard
of being done at MIT, so far as I know----
Mr. Cohn. When was that published?
Mr. Furry. As rapidly as possible after the fall of 1945.
Mr. Cohn. How about prior? Was there anything secret that
you were working on prior to the publication after 1945?
Was there anything you were working on that was marked
secret at that time? Don't you think it would be of value to
know who was giving out things when they were secret and see
where they are today and what they are doing today? You are
blocking us in that, Professor.
Mr. Furry. I would like to say that to the best of my
knowledge and memory I have never known--other than the case of
Mr. Yamins--anyone who had employment with the Signal Corps or
Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know that. You don't know where
everyone is who was working with you. You don't want to
undertake to represent the exact whereabouts, occupations,
directly and indirectly, the activities of people who worked
with you at MIT laboratory, do you?
Mr. Furry. There may be some of them about whom I don't
know.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this, professor. Let's take a
hypothetical case of John Jones who knew of someone working in
our secret laboratories on secret work. If John Jones knew
Communists who were there working on this secret work and would
not give that information to a government committee, which is
investigating espionage, would you consider John Jones a
traitor?
Mr. Furry. I am a little bit lost in this hypothetical
question.
The Chairman. Let me give you a real question. If Professor
Furry was a member of the Communist party in 1945 and under
Communist party discipline; if Professor Furry was working on
secret material having to do with the defense of this nation;
and if Professor Furry now knows that Communists were getting
that information, made it available to them; if Professor Furry
now knows of the Rosenberg's case, for example, knows this
information was passed on to Communist Russia, and an espionage
ring attempted to get that information; if Furry is called
before a committee and asked to give us the names of Communists
with whom he himself discussed this secret information and he
refused to give us the names of those Communists or any others
known to him who worked in the laboratory at that time, would
you say Furry is a traitor to the United States or not?
Mr. Furry. Well, this question claims to be a hypothetical
question but it uses the name which sounds a little like mine,
although it wasn't exactly like mine. I refuse to answer on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
[Off-the-record discussion.]
The Chairman. You will consider yourself under subpoena. We
will want you in public session.
May I say, Mr. Furry, we have the committee rule that the
committee does not give the names of any witnesses to the
public.
The witness himself can give his name if he wants to. You
can discuss with anyone what went on in this room as it affects
you. I may say in your case someone gave the press in Boston,
either you or your lawyer--we don't care. We didn't give the
press anything. Someone told the press you were going to be
here. I assume they know you are here. I wasn't criticizing you
for doing it. I merely wanted to state we did not.
Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF DIANA WOLMAN
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Wolman. I do.
The Chairman. I may say we are calling this witness first
because we understand she would like to get home.
Mrs. Wolman. I have a small child getting home from nursery
school.
Mr. Cohn. Could we have your full name?
Mrs. Wolman. Diana Wolman.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside?
Mrs. Wolman. 505 Albany Avenue, Brooklyn, New York.
Mr. Cohn. And have you ever worked for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mrs. Wolman. I am not certain. I think it was probably 1942
to 1943
Mr. Cohn. And where were you stationed?
Mrs. Wolman. I was living at home.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mrs. Wolman. You mean where I was working?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mrs. Wolman. I worked in Carney during the summer months
and then I transferred to New York and worked at Brooklyn and
White Plains.
Mr. Cohn. What was the nature of your duties?
Mrs. Wolman. I did what they call mechanical inspection. I
inspected equipment, counted it to make sure it was counted
right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have access to classified equipment
or material?
Mrs. Wolman. I don't remember having heard that word
before. I have been reading it in the papers. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have access to material not open to the
public?
Mrs. Wolman. I imagine so. I don't know. This was wartime.
Mr. Cohn. At that time, when employed by the Signal Corps,
were you a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Wolman. Well, I understand that a person may not be
compelled to be a witness against himself and I would like to
avail myself of that.
Mrs. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mrs. Wolman. Teacher.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mrs. Wolman. Thomas Jefferson High School, Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
Mrs. Wolman. Sight conservation. My license is teacher of
sight conservation.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party today?
Mrs. Wolman. I want to avail myself of the privilege of not
being a witness against myself.
Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
Mrs. Wolman. Sight conservation. I help students with poor
vision. I don't teach any particular subject. These students
take all the same subjects. I read aloud to them or whatever
their homework is. That is a special kind of license.
Mr. Cohn. That goes across whatever subjects they might be
taking?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes. We try to get talking records from the
library for the blind ones so they won't strain their eyes. We
give them help to get their work done. We type large copies of
examinations.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do any actual instructing?
Mrs. Wolman. One English class, yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have an opportunity of saying you are or
you are not a Communist. If you are not, it is to your benefit
to say so. You see, you could not incriminate yourself to say
you are not if you are not. If you are, you should avail
yourself of the Fifth Amendment. This refusal to tell us
whether or not you are a member of the Communist party will
most likely result in the loss of your job. You have an
opportunity, if you have broken with the party to tell us when
you broke with it and all the facts.
Mrs. Wolman. I believe I will use the opportunity of
availing myself of the privilege on whether or not I am a
Communist.
The Chairman. If you are not a Communist, you couldn't
incriminate yourself by saying ``no.'' It is only if you think
a truthful answer could incriminate. If we ask you, ``Are you a
Communist today'' and you say the truth would incriminate you,
that is notifying your superiors in the school system that you
are a Communist.
Mrs. Wolman. I don't want to go into a long detailed
discussion. I have a small child. That is the thing I said.
That is what I'd like it to remain.
The Chairman. You avail yourself of the Fifth Amendment?
Mrs. Wolman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you born?
Mrs. Wolman. Russia.
Mr. Cohn. How old were you when you left Russia?
Mrs. Wolman. I think three.
Mr. Cohn. Do you speak Russian?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. After you left the Signal Corps where did you go
to work?
Mrs. Wolman. I want to avail myself of the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to answer that question?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. As a matter of fact, didn't you go to work for
the Four Continent Book Corporation?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. And you were in charge of distributing Soviet
publications in the United States and giving the money to the
Communist party, weren't you?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. When you were in the Signal Corps, did you
participate in Communist activities with other people employed
in the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know of anyone working in the Signal Corps
who you knew in there when you were there who is a Communist?
Mrs. Wolman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, there was nobody working with you
in the Signal Corps who you knew to be a Communist who is still
working there?
Mrs. Wolman. I don't know.
The Chairman. In other words, you don't know whether any of
those people are still working there?
I am just trying to get it clear whether you are saying
none of those you knew as Communists are working for the Signal
Corps or whether you don't know.
Mrs. Wolman. There are two questions in one.
Mr. Cohn. Let's break it down. Did you know any Communists
in the Signal Corps when there?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Any person that you knew to be working there that
is still working for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Now, tell me, are there any teachers in the New
York School system who are Communists today, to your knowledge?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Do you indoctrinate any of your pupils in
communism or anything to do with it?
Mrs. Wolman. No, I don't.
Mr. Cohn. How old are the students you teach?
Mrs. Wolman. From fifteen to eighteen.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attempt to recruit any of them into
the Young Communist League?
Mrs. Wolman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever attempted to recruit any of them
into any organization----
Mrs. Wolman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever consulted with any representatives
of the Young Communist League?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Have you consulted with any member of the Young
Communist League concerning their program for recruiting
students?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you ever instructed by the Communist
party to indoctrinate your students in the philosophy of
communism?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. I think, Mr. Cohn, she has waived the
privilege. She has answered the question as to whether she
indoctrinated any.
Were you ever instructed by anyone to indoctrinate your
students in the Communist philosophy?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. I will order you to answer the question for
the reason you have waived the Fifth Amendment in that general
area when you stated you did not attempt to indoctrinate----
Mrs. Wolman. I still stand on the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any Communist party
meetings where some of your students were also present?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss communism with your
students?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Who got you the job in the Signal Corps?
Through whom did you get the job?
Mrs. Wolman. I went there and applied.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know anybody working there at the time
who assisted you in applying or obtaining the position?
Mrs. Wolman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Who did you give as references?
Mrs. Wolman. It is such a long time ago, I don't know. I am
sure you can find out.
Mr. Cohn. You were single?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Your maiden name was Moldever?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you are married now to Benjamin Wolman?
Mrs. Wolman. Un huh.
Mr. Cohn. What does he do?
Mrs. Wolman. Assistant principal in an elementary school.
Mr. Cohn. Is he a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had Communist meetings in your home?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Is that an elementary school in the City?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes. PS 3, I believe, Brooklyn.
The Chairman. What does PS mean?
Mrs. Wolman. Public School 3 in Brooklyn.
The Chairman. What is the age range of the pupils at that
school? Approximately?
Mrs. Wolman. I have nothing to do with my husband's job.
The Chairman. You talk to him, don't you? You know what the
age range is.
Mrs. Wolman. Seventh and eighth year. I guess normally
twelve to fourteen.
The Chairman. And you refuse to tell us whether your
husband is a Communist on the grounds that your answer might
tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Wolman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman [To Mr. Buckley]. Would you notify the head of
the school system about that also.
How long have you been married?
Mrs. Wolman. Yesterday was seven years.
The Chairman. This is your first husband you are married
to?
Mrs. Wolman. That is right.
The Chairman. Have you ever engaged in espionage?
Mrs. Wolman. No, I have not.
The Chairman. Did you ever give any secret information or
information about the material you were working on to people
you knew were Communists?
Mrs. Wolman. No, I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever discuss any of the work you were
doing at the Signal Corps with any member of the Communist
party?
Mrs. Wolman. I never discussed it with anybody.
Mr. Cohn. The questions is: Did you ever discuss it with
any member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Wolman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you attending Communist party meeting at the
time you were working for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Who got you the job at the Four Continent Book
Corporation?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a functionary of the Communist
party?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. I see. Now, when you filed an application for the
employment with the New York City Public School System, you
filed two, one on February 5, 1946 and February 18, 1948, and
on both you answered ``no'' as to whether or not you were a
member of the Communist party. Were you telling the truth?
Mrs. Wolman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to notify the committee if
and when you are suspended from your job and if and when your
husband is suspended. The School Board, Board of Education,
have apparently wisely taken the position that Communists
should not teach their children. Communists are not free
agents. Obviously they are under orders of the Communist party.
There is not such thing as academic freedom as they are told
what they must teach by the International conspiracy. I assume
they will discharge you immediately and rightly so. I assume
they will discharge your husband and rightly so. You will
inform the committee when you two are suspended.
Mrs. Wolman. Do you want me to write you a letter?
The Chairman. You can do it either by phone or registered
mail. If you do it by phone you can make a collect call to the
committee. If you do it by registered mail, the committee will
pay for any expenses connected with it.
Mrs. Wolman. Am I excused?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM BROTHMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM ROSSMOORE)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn,
please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in the matter now in hearing will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Brothman. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get the name of counsel?
Mr. Rossmoore. William Rossmoore, Newark, New Jersey. May I
state for the record my protest of the short notice given. My
client was advised at five o'clock to appear at 11:00 this
morning. He did not succeed in contacting me until 11:00 this
morning when Mr. Buckley directed us to get here in an hour. I
don't think he had due process in time to consult with counsel
and prepare for this hearing.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever represented Mr. Brothman before?
Mr. Rossmoore. No, I haven't. Is that question material?
Mr. Cohn. I am trying to arrange for more time.
Mr. Rossmoore. No, I haven't represented him before.
Mr. Cohn. I am trying to see how much time you need to talk
to him.
Mr. Rossmoore. I feel in order to----
The Chairman. In other words, you feel you would like to
have additional time to consult with your client?
Mr. Rossmoore. I am willing to start now, but if questions
come up I want the record to show----
The Chairman. If we arrive at a point in the questioning
that you think you would like additional time, we will give you
additional time.
I think that is a reasonable request. I think a lawyer
should have sufficient time to consult with his client and also
to get up on the particular law involved himself.
If at any time you want more time, we will accommodate you
on it.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Brothman give us your full name?
Mr. Brothman. Abraham Brothman.
Mr. Cohn. And where do you reside?
Mr. Brothman. I claim 4108 42nd Street, Long Island City as
my official home address. It is not, however, the address I am
to be found at all times.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you to be found at other times?
Mr. Brothman. Sixty-seven Ball Street, Port Jefferson, New
York.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege of not testifying
against myself.
Mr. Cohn. As to where you are employed?
Mr. Brothman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Do you work at the Techniflex Corporation?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege of not testifying
against myself.
Mr. Cohn. Do you work on radar now?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege against testifying
against myself on that question.
Mr. Cohn. Now, does this company for which you work
directly or indirectly do any work for the government?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege of not testifying
against myself on that question.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Brothman, are you engaged in espionage
against the United States at this time?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege under the Fifth
Amendment, my right not to testify against myself.
Mr. Cohn. Were you convicted in the U.S. District Court for
the Southern District of New York in November of 1950 for
conspiracy to obstruct justice in that you advised Harry Gold
to lie to a grand jury concerning espionage activities? \8\
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\8\ In 1947 Abraham Brothman, who ran an engineering firm in
Queens, New York, and his former employee Harry Gold, were called
before a federal grand jury. Elizabeth Bentley had testified that
Soviet agents had used Brothman's firm as a conduit for industrial
espionage, with Gold acting as intermediary. In 1950, Gold repudiated
his earlier testimony and revealed that he and Brothman had agreed to
coordinate their earlier testimony and provide each other with alibis.
Brothman was then convicted for obstruction of justice and served two
years of a seven-year sentence. Roy Cohn had assisted in Brothman's
prosecution.
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Mr. Brothman. I was convicted on that charge.
Mr. Cohn. And you were sentenced to what term?
Mr. Brothman. [No answer].
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, is his employer here?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
The Chairman. Tell him to consider himself under subpoena.
Mr. Cohn. He is under subpoena. I don't think the witness
is particularly cooperative.
The Chairman. How many years were you sentenced to?
Mr. Brothman. I was originally sentenced to seven years.
The Chairman. And was that cut down subsequently?
Mr. Brothman. It was.
The Chairman. What was that cut down to?
Mr. Brothman. Two years.
The Chairman. And you got some time off for good behavior,
did you?
Mr. Brothman. Yes, sir, I did.
The Chairman. How much time did you actually serve?
Mr. Brothman. Twenty-three days short of two years.
The Chairman. And when did you leave the penitentiary?
Mr. Brothman. November 5, 1952.
The Chairman. Have you been pardoned yet? In other words,
have you got your pardon so you have regained your citizenship?
Mr. Brothman. I have not received a pardon.
The Chairman. Where were you last night?
Mr. Brothman. I am sorry. I didn't quite catch that.
The Chairman. I said, where were you last night?
Mr. Brothman. I claim the privilege under the Fifth
Amendment, my privilege not to testify against myself.
The Chairman. Were you engaged last night in any activities
that were illegal, either in direct or indirect violation of
the laws, of the state or federal government last night?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege under the Fifth
Amendment, my right not to testify against myself.
The Chairman. Were you in charge of the task of getting the
Communist vote for a man who ran for office yesterday?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege under the Fifth
Amendment, my right not to be made to testify against myself.
The Chairman. Were you at Democratic headquarters last
night with a man who you campaigned for?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege under the Fifth
Amendment and my right not to be caused to testify against
myself.
The Chairman. Were you last night at Democratic
headquarters?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privilege under the Fifth
Amendment.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer the question.
There is nothing incriminating about being in a public
headquarters.
Mr. Brothman. I was not at Democratic headquarters last
night.
The Chairman. You were not?
Mr. Brothman. I was not. I give this answer upon advice of
counsel.
The Chairman. I guess you are entitled to the privilege of
refusing to answer whether you were engaged in any illegal
activities.
Who is your boss in your job?
Mr. Brothman. I claim my privileges.
The Chairman. Have him step in here, will you, Dan.
How old are you?
Mr. Brothman. Forty years old.
The Chairman. Are you married?
Mr. Brothman. Yes.
The Chairman. Where does your wife work?
Mr. Brothman. Dominion Products.
The Chairman. Is that in New York City?
Mr. Brothman. Yes, it is.
The Chairman. And how old is your family--any sons and
daughters?
Mr. Brothman. Oh, I have a daughter who will be nine in
December, December 31st, and a daughter who will be thirteen
next July.
The Chairman. They are not, of course, working any where?
Mr. Brothman. No, they are not.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers and sisters working
for the government?
Mr. Brothman. I have not.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers and sisters?
Mr. Brothman. I have a sister.
The Chairman. What is her name?
Mr. Brothman. Beatrice.
The Chairman. And her last name now?
Mr. Brothman. Schnee.
The Chairman. And where is she working?
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Brothman. I am sorry.
The Chairman. The question is: What does your sister, Mrs.
Schnee, work at?
Mr. Brothman. She is a housewife.
The Chairman. Not working, of course. Does your brother-in-
law work for the government?
Mr. Brothman. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Are you answering that question?
Mr. Brothman. I have to confess that I am not too familiar
with what my brother-in-law is doing at this time nor can I
even be certain of what his work record has been.
The Chairman. When did you last see him? Roughly?
Mr. Brothman. I am sorry to have to take that time. I
believe it was about eight weeks ago, maybe a bit more, maybe a
bit less.
The Chairman. Did you know where he was working at that
time?
Mr. Brothman. I say, I believe it was eight weeks ago.
The Chairman. Was he working for the government at that
time?
Mr. Brothman. I can't honestly say.
The Chairman. Did you have any idea where he was working at
that time?
Mr. Brothman. I vaguely believe, I can't be certain, but I
think that he has for the last few years been in photography.
The Chairman. You don't know if he has done work for the
government or not?
Mr. Brothman. I am not certain.
The Chairman. Don't you have any idea?
Mr. Brothman. Frankly, I can't really be certain of that.
The Chairman. What is his address?
Mr. Brothman. I can't give you the actual street address. I
can confine it for you on the block where he does live.
The Chairman. Will you do that?
Mr. Brothman. It is Westside, Townsend Avenue between Mount
Eden Avenue--that is on the north and what street bounds it on
the south-going street on the other side.
The Chairman. Is his name not in the telephone book, if you
know?
Mr. Brothman. I don't really know.
The Chairman. And he spells his last name?
Mr. Brothman. S-c-h-n-e-e.
The Chairman. And his first name is what?
Mr. Brothman. Lee.
The Chairman. Lee Schnee. Is that right?
Mr. Brothman. Yes. I am not sure that that is not just an
abbreviation. It may stand for Leon.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party
today?
Mr. Brothman. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that I will not testify against myself.
The Chairman. Is the Communist party paying for your
attorney's fees?
Mr. Rossmoore. I would like my personal objection to that
question to be noted on the record.
The Chairman. Is the Communist party paying your attorney?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question under my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You understand that you are telling the
public that the Communist party is paying your lawyer? If not,
that is very unfair to him. If they are not paying him, you can
merely say ``no.''
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer the question under my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Will you have the record show that after the
witness declined and I informed him of the affect of invoking
the Fifth Amendment, that he had a conference with counsel and
reiterated his position that he would decline to answer.
Do you know Norman Gaboriault?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, invoking
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Is Gaboriault a Communist?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, invoking
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Have you and Gaboriault jointly engaged in
espionage?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question under my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Gaboriault is doing secret work for the
government, isn't he?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, invoking
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you with Gaboriault yesterday?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, invoking
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. When Gaboriault hired you, did he know you
had been convicted as a traitor and spy? Did he know that?
Mr. Brothman. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Counsel, are you representing Mr. Gaboriault?
Mr. Rossmoore. No, I don't represent Mr. Gaboriault.
The Chairman. What is your answer to that question?
Mr. Brothman. The record shows what I was convicted of and
I furthermore decline to answer the question, invoking my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Is your wife a Communist?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question on the
grounds that I cannot be compelled to give testimony against my
wife.
The Chairman. Was your wife a Communist before you married
her?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question on the
grounds that I cannot be compelled to give testimony against my
wife.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. Gaboriault just
entered the room.
I now ask the witness: Do you know this man--Mr. Norman
Gaboriault?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, invoking
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. So there will be no question, the man who
stands here wears glasses--who has been identified as Mr.
Norman Gaboriault--the gentleman with the grey suit on.
Mr. Rossmoore. Make the record show that there has been no
identification of the gentleman other than the Chairman's own
statement.
The Chairman. Counsel, I think I failed to instruct you
what the committee rules are: I will instruct you now. You can
consult with your client at any time you see fit. If you come
to something of sufficient importance that you want a private
conference with him, you can have that. Counsel is not allowed
to take any part in the proceedings. If you have any counsel,
you can consult with your client and have him object to it. We
will not hear your statement. We will not hear your objection.
Mr. Rossmoore. I have heard your statement without acceding
to the rules you have announced.
The Chairman. I just got through telling you, we will not
hear from you. You can freely discuss matters with your client.
We will hear from you no more.
Getting back to the question, have you looked at the
gentleman with the grey suit on and glasses, the man named
Norman Gaboriault, and I ask you if you ever saw him before?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, claiming
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you feel it might tend to incriminate you
if you tell us whether you have seen Mr. Gaboriault before?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, claiming
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. In view of the fact that you have declined to
tell us whether you think it would incriminate you if you
answered the last question, you are ordered to answer that
question.
Just so you can't claim ignorance of this at some future
legal proceeding, you can only refuse to answer this question
if you feel your answer might tend to incriminate you. You now
tell us you won't say whether it will incriminate you,
therefore, you are not entitled to the privilege under the
Fifth Amendment. Therefore, you are ordered to answer the
question of whether you saw Mr. Gaboriault before.
Do you understand the chair's order?
Mr. Brothman. I am afraid I don't know which question is
being put to me.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question of
whether or not you have seen Mr. Gaboriault, before. If you
don't understand the reason for the chair's ruling, just say so
and I will explain it again.
Mr. Brothman. I'd like to hear your explanation, Senator.
The Chairman. You are entitled to refuse to answer any
questions if you honestly feel your answer might tend to
incriminate you, otherwise you must answer the question.
I asked you whether or not you had seen Mr. Gaboriault
before. You refused to answer that and invoked the Fifth
Amendment. I then asked you the question, ``Do you feel if you
were to answer that question as to whether or not you know Mr.
Gaboriault, that would tend to incriminate you?'' You have to
answer that before the chair can determine whether you are
rightfully invoking the Fifth Amendment. You then refused to
tell me whether you thought the answer might tend to
incriminate you. Therefore, you don't have the privilege under
the Fifth Amendment as to the question.
If you didn't understand the question and want to change
your answer, you may do so. As it now stands, you are ordered
to answer the original question.
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer the question, invoking my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Your counsel is properly informed that you
will be cited for contempt and your case will be submitted to
the grand jury.
I believe this question has been asked before. Have you
been engaged in espionage within the last week?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question, invoking
my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you feel that if you were to answer that
question, the answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Brothman. Regardless of the form of the question, I
must again invoke my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You are then ordered to answer the question
as to whether or not you engaged in espionage in the past week.
In view of the fact you have refused to tell us whether or not
the answer to that question might tend to incriminate you, you
are not entitled to any Fifth Amendment privilege. You are,
therefore, ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Brothman. I refuse to answer that question, invoking my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You are again notified for your information,
so you can retain counsel, that you will be cited for contempt
and the case will be submitted to the grand jury on this count
also.
I am going to give you a chance to run up as many counts as
you want to. You have spent some time in the pen and I am going
to give you a chance to get as many years as you want to.
Have you engaged in espionage at any time you worked for
the Techniflex Corporation?
Mr. Brothman. I must answer all such questions with refusal
to testify against myself.
The Chairman. Do you feel if you answer that question, your
answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Brothman. I have already claimed the privilege against
self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Will you speak louder?
Mr. Brothman. I have already claimed the privilege against
self-incrimination and that continues to be my answer on that
question.
The Chairman. You refuse to tell me whether you feel if you
answer that it might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Brothman. I have already stated that I am claiming the
privilege against self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Do you feel if you answered that question it
might tend to incriminate you?
I cannot grant you the privilege of the Fifth Amendment
unless I know you feel the answer might tend to incriminate
you.
[Off-record discussion.]
You can have a private conference.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN GABORIAULT
The Chairman. Mr. Gaboriault, will you take the stand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in the matter now in hearing will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Gaboriault. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Gaboriault, could we get your full name for
the record?
Mr. Gaboriault. Norman G-a-b-o-r-i-a-u-l-t.
The Chairman. Mr. Brothman, before you leave--Mr.
Gaboriault, do you know this man?
Mr. Gaboriault. I do.
The Chairman. Is this Mr. Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. How do you pronounce it?
Mr. Gaboriault. ``Gaboro.''
The Chairman. And the first name is Norman?
Mr. Gaboriault. Right.
The Chairman. Mr. Gaboriault, what office do you hold with
the Techniflex Corporation?
Mr. Gaboriault. President and general manager.
The Chairman. About how many people do you employ?
Mr. Gaboriault. About seventy-five.
The Chairman. Does the Techniflex Corporation do any work
for the government?
Mr. Gaboriault. One contract now.
The Chairman. What is the nature of that contract?
Mr. Gaboriault. Commercial type heater.
The Chairman. Do you do any classified work?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever done any?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever done any work in connection
with radar?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Nothing in connection with radar?
Mr. Gaboriault. No. I'd like to have that clarified a bit.
I have done work on radar personally. My interpretation of
radar work is of a certain type.
The Chairman. What type of radar work do you do?
Mr. Gaboriault. The reason I am saying that is this: The
heater we have now is a small commercial heater for the Signal
Corps. We don't know where it goes or how it is used and I
wouldn't want it to be interpreted at a later date that that
has any connection with radar.
The Chairman. Do you know whether that does have any
connection with radar?
Mr. Gaboriault. No. I don't.
The Chairman. What kind of heater is it?
Mr. Gaboriault. It is made in the shape of a tube about two
inches long and about two and a half inches in diameter. The
principle of construction is much the same as a household
toaster.
The Chairman. And you got the specifications from the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Gaboriault. Correct.
The Chairman. And is that the only work you are doing for
the government?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is the only work we are doing for the
government on prime contract.
The Chairman. On any contract?
Mr. Gaboriault. Sub-contract, we have a machine shop. It is
a jobbing type machine shop as much as any other machine shop.
We do get parts of machinery related to the defense effort.
The Chairman. Machinery related to defense effort?
Mr. Gaboriault. The type work, it is related to defense in
that their components required--none of it is of a classified
nature.
The Chairman. In other words, the general public could come
in and buy any of that?
Mr. Gaboriault. It is not a classified plant. Anybody can
see anything we are doing.
The Chairman. Including this little heater that you are
talking about?
Mr. Gaboriault. Everything in our plant is open to the
public. As a matter of fact, we invite the public in the form
of school children, teachers.
The Chairman. Have you ever done any work for the
government not open to the general public?
Mr. Gaboriault. Never.
The Chairman. Do you do any work for anyone other than the
government?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes. We have the commercial industrial----
The Chairman. The total work done by you, what percent is
government work on prime contracts or sub-contracts?
Mr. Gaboriault. The percentage on prime contracts is less
than 10 percent. That is the one Signal Corps job which we
have. That job amounts to roughly $2,500 and that is a very
approximate figure. I'd say the maximum amount would be $4,000.
The Chairman. Give me, if you will, the percentage of your
total work which is done for the government either on prime or
sub-contracts. Just lump it all together.
Mr. Gaboriault. Right now I would guess at less than 50
percent involves work of a defense nature.
The Chairman. In other words, less than 50 percent is work
for the government--any kind of work for any part of the
government?
Mr. Gaboriault. I am trying to evaluate the question. We
don't run a static business. We have a dynamic business. I am
trying to evaluate it thinking in terms of current business
open on the books, and I would estimate it at under fifty
percent.
The Chairman. That includes every branch of the government?
Mr. Gaboriault. That includes anything of defense work of
any type which is machine shop work.
The Chairman. I don't care whether it is defense work--any
work for the government regardless of whether it is defense
work?
Mr. Gaboriault. Now, you are including prime contracts and
sub-contracts.
The Chairman. All work you do for the government, directly
or indirectly, regardless whether it is defense work or any
other kind of work.
Mr. Gaboriault. Every order I have would have to be
searched for that, the reason being machine parts of a
commercial nature are assembled into equipment and we don't
know whether the government is going to be a customer or not. I
would say that less than 50 percent of the work we do is
essentially paid for by government funds, based on my knowledge
of what is happening to the equipment we work on.
The Chairman. Do you make any machine tools for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Gaboriault. None.
The Chairman. Any parts for radio equipment?
Mr. Gaboriault. None.
The Chairman. Any parts for army devices of bombs?
Mr. Gaboriault. The closest--the answer to that is ``no.''
The Chairman. Any parts of airplanes?
Mr. Gaboriault. We make parts of airplanes.
The Chairman. What parts of airplanes do you make?
Mr. Gaboriault. Fittings of a type similar to an elbow in
piping, hydraulic piping, valves of rather simple construction.
The Chairman. Would any of that material be of any benefit
to an enemy of ours who is about to wage war on us, if they had
access to all equipment in your shop or all material to be
manufactures?
Mr. Gaboriault. It is unclassified. It is for special
application. It's value to anybody else would be nil in my
opinion.
The Chairman. Do you do any electronic work? Anything
having to do with electrical equipment?
Mr. Gaboriault. Electrical equipment--we are working on
automotive accessory equipment.
The Chairman. You started to say something in answer to the
question as to whether you made any army devices for bombs.
What were you going to tell us?
Mr. Gaboriault. What I had in mind was a gun sight--I was
scheduled to do for estimation purposes, and we are equipped to
do that job. It is a matter of working up the details with the
prime contractor.
The Chairman. Would that be classified?
Mr. Gaboriault. No, that is not classified. That design and
print has been available and anyone has access to it that wants
access to it to the best of my knowledge. It is not marked
classified.
I have tried to stay away from classified work of any
extreme nature because it would cost me too much to set the
plant up with guards and fences and all that.
The Chairman. When did you hire Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. November 5th. The day after election day
last year. That is from memory. I think November 5th. It may
have been later.
The Chairman. He testified that was the date he was
released--November 5, 1952.
Mr. Gaboriault. That is probably the date that I remember.
I hired him afterwards. I did not hire him November 5th if that
is the date he was released. Perhaps the 6th or 7th. Sometime
subsequent to that.
The Chairman. Who recommended him for the job?
Mr. Gaboriault. Mr. Freidus.
The Chairman. How do you spell that?
Mr. Gaboriault. F-r-e-i-d-u-s.
The Chairman. What is Mr. Freidus' first name?
Mr. Gaboriault. Jacob.
The Chairman. Does he work for you?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Where does he live?
Mr. Gaboriault. He is, I believe, in Washington right now.
He is serving a term for income tax evasion.
The Chairman. He is in jail now?
Mr. Gaboriault. Washington, yes, sir.
The Chairman. Washington State?
Mr. Gaboriault. Honestly, I don't know where he is.
The Chairman. Was he serving a term at that time?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Pardon me?
Mr. Gaboriault. Was he serving a term at what time?
The Chairman. At the time he recommended Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Had he been convicted at that time?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Was he doing work for the government or
private work?
Mr. Gaboriault. I honestly couldn't say what he was doing
as a means of earning a livelihood or occupation if that is
what you are endeavoring to find out. The reason I don't know,
he was my employer at the time. He was my employer in that he
owned or controlled the stock of the corporation.
The Chairman. Of the Techniflex Corporation?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. Did he own the controlling interest in the
stock?
Mr. Gaboriault. At that time he did.
The Chairman. And did you have the right to either take
Brothman on or refuse?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is solely my responsibility.
The Chairman. Were you informed that Brothman was in jail
in connection with espionage activities?
Mr. Gaboriault. That all depends on what the word
connection means. I was informed----
The Chairman. Did you know that he was in jail in
connection with espionage?
Mr. Gaboriault. I believe the exact charge was obstructing
justice for advising an espionage agent to lie to the grand
jury.
The Chairman. Were you aware of that at the time?
Mr. Gaboriault. I was aware of something. My honest answer
to it is that I cannot recall what it was. It meant nothing to
me at the time.
The Chairman. This was in 1950. We were at war with Korea
in 1950. November 5, 1950 was shortly after the Communists,
Chinese Communists, entered that war so that all of us, I
believe, were quite painfully aware of Communist espionage
agents, I assume. You said it didn't mean anything to you?
Mr. Gaboriault. It had no connection with what I was doing.
I don't want you to misunderstand. I did not hire him at that
time.
You asked me a question back a ways that I answered in this
fashion. Mr. Freidus----
The Chairman. When did Freidus break his connections with
the company if he has broken it?
Mr. Gaboriault. Either during or shortly after his trial. I
don't recall.
The Chairman. How long ago was that? Roughly?
Mr. Gaboriault. Roughly, I would say the end of 1950 or the
early part of 1951.
The Chairman. In other words, it was within a matter of
months after you hired Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. No. We have gone off some place. We are
mixing one year ago and three years ago.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon. I think I have been mixing
these dates up.
Mr. Gaboriault. That goes back to some prior question about
me being indifferent regarding communism or something of that
nature.
The Chairman. You are right. I am referring to 1952. Was
Jacob Freidus connected with the company November 6, 1952?
Mr. Gaboriault. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. When did he recommend Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. I had already answered that.
The Chairman. When he recommended him to go to work for
you, he was not your boss and did not have any control over the
company. Is that right?
Mr. Gaboriault. Now, we have got to straighten something
else out. He did not recommend that Mr. Brothman go to work for
me in that sense.
The Chairman. What did he recommend?
Mr. Gaboriault. He recommended that I try to evaluate for
myself whether or not work that Mr. Brothman had been doing was
worthy of my consideration in the plant.
The Chairman. Now, I will ask you a question. When he made
this recommendation, did he control the stock of the
corporation? Was he your boss?
Mr. Gaboriault. At that time Mr. Freidus was.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Gaboriault. 1950, I believe.
The Chairman. He made the recommendation in 1950. Is that
correct? That was when Brothman was in jail. Correct?
Mr. Gaboriault. To the best of my knowledge he was.
The Chairman. He recommended that you hire a man who still
had a number of years to serve in jail. Is that correct?
Mr. Gaboriault. The recommendation was not to hire.
The Chairman. Let's forget the technicalities----
Mr. Gaboriault. The technicalities make a big difference.
The Chairman. The recommendation he made to you, regardless
of what it was, was made when Brothman was in jail, when he had
over a year's time to serve. Is that correct?
Mr. Gaboriault. Recommendations were in regard to products
rather than in regard to an individual at the time. The
commercial industrial product, which had been designed by Mr.
Brothman, was recommended. It centered around that. There I am
speaking of something tangible rather than an individual.
The Chairman. I am going to ask you again. You will have to
answer sooner or later.
When this recommendation was made, Brothman was still in
jail and he still had in excess of a year to serve.
Mr. Gaboriault. That part, yes.
The Chairman. Did you contact Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. How did you get in touch with him?
Mr. Gaboriault. When he was released. His wife had been in
touch with me and I had him picked up at Atlanta.
The Chairman. In other words, you sent a car down to pick
him up?
Mr. Gaboriault. I picked him up for the purpose of
interviewing him to see what could be done on the products.
The Chairman. Did you ask him why he had been in jail?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ask him if it was in connection with
the Gold part of the Rosenberg spy ring?
Mr. Gaboriault. Not the latter question.
The Chairman. Did you ask him about his connection with the
Gold part of the Rosenberg spy ring?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Did you ask him about his connection with
Gold?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ask him if he had worked with
Rosenberg?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Did you ask him if he was a Communist?
Mr. Gaboriault. I would not ask that question of anybody. I
try to evaluate people myself.
The Chairman. You did not ask him if he were a Communist?
Mr. Gaboriault. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ask him if he were an espionage
agent?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Did you ask him about his appearance before
the grand jury?
Mr. Gaboriault. [No answer.]
I have no intention, Senator, of evading any questions.
The Chairman. I will sit this out. It is a simple question.
Did you ask him about his appearance before the grand jury?
Mr. Gaboriault. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Did you have any interest in whether or not
this man that you were hiring directly from the pen was a
Communist or espionage agent?
Mr. Gaboriault. An extreme interest.
The Chairman. You were interested?
Mr. Gaboriault. Extremely so.
The Chairman. But you didn't ask him about it? You picked
up a man from the jail doors of Atlanta who had been sentenced
in connection with treason, espionage, and you say you were
extremely interested in knowing whether he was an espionage
agent, extremely interested in knowing whether he was a
Communist, but you say you never asked him about it. Is that
right?
Mr. Gaboriault. As a specific question? You are asking a
specific question. I did not ask specific questions as such. I
asked what the entire story was. From the entire story I tried
to decide for myself.
The Chairman. Did you ask whether he had broken with the
Communist party?
Mr. Gaboriault. To the best of my knowledge he was never a
member of the Communist party.
The Chairman. Did he tell you he was not?
Mr. Gaboriault. He has so stated.
The Chairman. He told you he was not a Communist?
Mr. Gaboriault. Correct.
The Chairman. When was the last time he told you that?
Mr. Gaboriault. The last time, I believe, was possibly
yesterday.
The Chairman. And how well do you know his wife?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is a comparative question. I know her
fairly well.
The Chairman. Do you visit at their home?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. You and your wife go to their home, do you?
Mr. Gaboriault. No. My wife and I do not go there. She has
visited my home.
The Chairman. Mr. and Mrs. Brothman have visited your home?
Mr. Gaboriault. Correct.
The Chairman. Roughly, how many times?
Mr. Gaboriault. Mr. and Mrs. Brothman together?
The Chairman. Together or alone.
I am just trying to find out how well you knew these
people. You went down and picked up Brothman at the doors of
Atlanta and brought him back and put him in government work. He
was convicted in connection with treason. What was the occasion
of this? How well do you know them?
Mr. Gaboriault. How well I know them, I can explain very
easily. I spend an average of maybe twelve hours a day working
very closely with Mr. Brothman. That involves when he gets up
in the morning, which is around 9:30, until around midnight
when we stop working on what we are working on.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet him before you hired him?
Mr. Gaboriault. Once.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Gaboriault. That was when he was--there is my memory
again. That was either here or it was here in this building.
The Chairman. While he was being tried?
Mr. Gaboriault. I do not know whether he was being tried at
the time or not.
The Chairman. You never met him before that?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Who introduced you?
Mr. Gaboriault. That I do not recall.
The Chairman. You don't have any idea? You didn't just run
into him in the halls here, did you?
Mr. Gaboriault. It may have been his wife that introduced
us.
The Chairman. How long had you known his wife?
Mr. Gaboriault. I met his wife a few times because there
were simultaneous trials going on.
The Chairman. How did that occasion your meeting his wife?
Were you involved in any law suits at the trials?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Were you interested in the trial in which she
was involved?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. So you were over here in the courthouse. What
were you doing?
Mr. Gaboriault. That was at the time Mr. Freidus' trial was
going on.
The Chairman. At that time was the criminal trial of
Brothman going on too?
Mr. Gaboriault. That I do not remember.
The Chairman. You met his wife. Is that the first time you
met her?
Mr. Gaboriault. In that----
The Chairman. Is that the first time?
Mr. Gaboriault. In that period of time.
The Chairman. I asked you when you first met his wife. That
is a very simple question. We are going to get this
information. I want to know why a man handling government work
hires a traitor out of Atlanta and I want to get the
information from you.
Mr. Gaboriault. I am trying to give it to you.
The Chairman. You will.
Mr. Gaboriault. I am trying. If I might cite this one
instance. I am not trying to be evasive.
I had a little experience a few days ago with an
individual. We were going to a house and he asked me how to get
there. I said, ``You know, drive me. You have been there
before.'' He said he didn't know. I said we had both been
there. I found out he hadn't been there. It took twenty minutes
for me to remember. My memory is a little bit off.
The Chairman. When did you first meet his wife?
Mr. Gaboriault. While the trial was going on.
The Chairman. That was the first time you met her?
Mr. Gaboriault. Right. I mean Mr. Freidus' trial.
The Chairman. You did not know her before?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Gaboriault. Late 1950, I believe, around December.
The Chairman. Then you started to visit their home?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Did you visit their home while Brothman was
in Atlanta?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Did you see the wife while he was there?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. You never did see her when he was in Atlanta?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. Good. Tell us about it. Where was it--her
home, your home or where?
Mr. Gaboriault. She was bringing the children back from
summer vacation and they stopped by the factory on the way
through.
The Chairman. That is the only time you saw her?
Mr. Gaboriault. That may have happened twice.
The Chairman. Did she ever come to your home?
Mr. Gaboriault. She never came to my home.
The Chairman. Did you ever phone her?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Which of the two times that you saw her did
you arrange to hire him?
Mr. Gaboriault. I did not arrange it with her.
The Chairman. Then I must have misunderstood you. I thought
you said you did.
Mr. Gaboriault. I arranged with Mr. Brothman after I met
him and heard his complete story.
The Chairman. You understand my complete question. You sent
a car down to pick him up at the gate of Atlanta.
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. All right. Get back to the question. You say
you only saw her twice when she stopped in the plant. Which of
those two times did you make the arrangements?
Mr. Gaboriault. The gap in here is not due to evasiveness.
It is due to trying to answer the questions and the gap in the
questioning, as I see it.
A former employee of Mr. Brothman came to work for
Techniflex. That, I believe, was in early 1951 or late 1950,
shortly after I spoke to Mr. Freidus. The object of that
employment was primarily to try to work on products which
primarily centered around a valve, at the time, which Mr.
Brothman had designed a few years prior.
The Chairman. You heard my question. You said you arranged
with his wife to pick him up at the gate of Atlanta. I asked
when you made the arrangements. You saw her twice while he was
in the pen. Which of these two times you saw her did you make
the arrangements?
Mr. Gaboriault. Neither.
The Chairman. Did you make the arrangements with her?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. So when you said you made the arrangements
with her, you were mistaken?
Mr. Gaboriault. I did not personally make the arrangements.
That was done through Mr. Goldfarb.
The Chairman. Does he work for you?
Mr. Gaboriault. He currently works for me--sales engineer.
The Chairman. What is his first name?
Mr. Gaboriault. Herman.
The Chairman. Did he ask you to hire Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. He did not.
The Chairman. Did he recommend him? Was he in favor of
hiring him?
Mr. Gaboriault. No, he did not recommend him.
The Chairman. Was he in favor of hiring him?
Mr. Gaboriault. He was in no position--he was my employee.
The Chairman. He made the arrangements. Did he approve of
those arrangements?
Mr. Gaboriault. He made the arrangements to go down to
Atlanta. He made those arrangements, to the best of my
knowledge, with Mrs. Brothman, so he would go down and pick up
Mr. Brothman and bring him back to me for an interview.
The Chairman. You are dealing here with a man convicted in
connection with treason. You are going to hire him. Goldfarb is
making the arrangements to pick him up at Atlanta. I ask you,
was Goldfarb in favor of that?
Mr. Gaboriault. He was agreeable.
The Chairman. You may step down. We will call you back. You
understand you are under subpoena and we will call you back in
about a half hour. In the mean time, think it over and try to
refresh your recollection.
[The witness returned to the stand in approximately a half
hour.]
Mr. Carr. Mr. Gaboriault, we seem, for some reason to be
having difficulty in understanding each other--the committee
and you. There seems to be some hesitancy on your part to
answer fully. At the same time you state you feel you want to
and are cooperating fully with the committee in telling
everything you can that will be of help. It seems to me a
simple story and if you would just tell us how you happened to
hire Brothman. You seem to be afraid we are trying to lead you
into questions and answers. All we want is the story on how you
happened to hire Brothman and your connection with him. It is
obvious that your connection with him has some explanation.
We'd like to know about it.
Maybe you could just tell the story in your own words
briefly. Maybe the questions tend to throw you off your line of
thinking.
Mr. Gaboriault. They do. The questions definitely throw me
off because of this: A man does not live that can remember
details accurately.
Mr. Carr. I think that is your problem. You have probably
been afraid.
Mr. Gaboriault. I have been afraid of perjury. I will
remember something as I remember it. I cited one instance that
happened a couple of days ago when someone else comes along and
proves I am wrong.
Mr. Carr. What we are interested in is getting the full
picture and it seems to me you could tell us the story if you
want to tell us the story in such a way as to protect yourself.
In other words, we just want to the best of your recollection
how it happened. You can protect yourself. You say you are
afraid of perjury. We are not trying you or trying to give you
questions which will lead you to perjury. All we want to do is
get the story as to how you happened to hire this man Brothman
and your connection with him.
The question comes down to this. You stated that you had
met his wife here in this building during the course of Mr.
Freidus' trial. How did you happen to meet her here? There
shouldn't be any problem. Don't involve yourself with making
this too difficult, too technical.
Mr. Gaboriault. That is technical, isn't it?
Mr. Carr. It is, but you are making it more so.
Mr. Gaboriault. To the best of my recollection, I don't
know how I met her. I was in the courthouse.
Mr. Carr. You seem to be making it difficult.
Mr. Gaboriault. I don't live this stuff every day.
Mr. Carr. Why don't you just tell us the story. I am sure
if you were engaged in some conversation with some of your
friends or business acquaintances and they asked you how
something came about, you could say so. You could say to the
best of your recollection this is what happened. If your
recollection is wrong, I am sure you would correct it at such
time as you thought something was refreshed in your memory.
How did you happen to hire Brothman, in as simple language
as you can give it to the best of your recollection?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is already in the record. I will
repeat it. First, Mr. Freidus was on trial simultaneously with
Mr. Brothman. I was asked the details pertaining to that and I
do not remember. Mr. Freidus, having met Mr. Brothman had
conversed with him and I understood from him that he had some
products, if worked on, which had some commercial value if
exploited.
Mr. Freidus told me if I wanted to look into it I could get
the information, details of the transaction being vague. It was
Mr. Goldfarb who had been a former employee of Mr. Brothman
that brought the design data to me. I reviewed it. I liked it.
I thought the program was worthwhile entering upon. This was
around the end of 1950 or the first of 1951.
In 1952, November, when Mr. Brothman was to be released,
Mr. Goldfarb was requested to go down and get him and bring him
back to me. He was the one who had designed the product
initially. Mr. Goldfarb went down to get him. He was not hired
at that time. I did not hire Mr. Brothman as a member of the
company. He came back to my plant in Port Jervis, the plant I
run. I run it in Port Jervis. I would never think of hiring
anybody that I was convinced was a Communist.
Would you care, for the senator's sake, for me to repeat
the same things I have said before?
Mr. Carr. Why don't you continue to tell us this part of
it.
Mr. Gaboriault. I didn't know anything about the trial in
detail. I run a business. My job is not that. You fellows have
the job of investigating. It is up to you to see that the
country is kept straight.
When I sent Mr. Goldfarb down to get Mr. Brothman, at that
time I didn't know in detail what had transpired. I wanted to
speak to Brothman and find out from him. I spoke to him and I
was satisfied he was entitled to make a living.
The Chairman. Did you think he had been unfairly convicted?
Mr. Gaboriault. Based on discussions we had--we have had
very lengthy discussion--I did not want to gamble. The
discussions were very lengthy. Based on those and based on
someone else who got the transcript of the trial, in my opinion
I did not think he was justly accused. Some of the details of
the trial, the transcript, and what happened in details that he
gave me himself----
The Chairman. Did you read the transcript?
Mr. Gaboriault. I mentioned that was through a third
person.
The Chairman. Who is the third party?
Mr. Gaboriault. Bill Ruben.
The Chairman. Who is he?
Mr. Gaboriault. He is a lawyer.
The Chairman. Does he work for you also?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Do I understand that he got a transcript for
you and studied it?
Mr. Gaboriault. He didn't study it for me. He studied it
for other reasons.
The Chairman. Do you know what reason he studied it for?
Mr. Gaboriault. I believe he is a journalist.
The Chairman. You mean in school?
Mr. Gaboriault. That I couldn't answer. I have met the
fellow and I can't go much beyond that.
The Chairman. You must have known him fairly well?
Mr. Gaboriault. I can develop confidence in a person after
a certain amount of conversation. I have made mistakes.
The Chairman. Did he come in to see you in regard to
Brothman? How did you meet this fellow? Did he come to Port
Jervis for that reason?
Mr. Gaboriault. Excuse me one moment, please. I don't want
to get in a situation----
When I came back in this room, you mentioned that there was
certain confusion and an apparent lack of desire on$my part to
cooperate. That is not a lack of desire. It is a matter of
sequence of questions, in answering questions regarding
individuals, time, places, which are to me as a business man of
inconsequential nature. Details I don't try to remember. That
is when my vagueness is going to come in.
The Chairman. You mean you don't remember when you met
Ruben?
Mr. Gaboriault. I could say five months ago and it could be
ten months ago.
The Chairman. In other words, it was long after you hired
Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. I don't believe it was long after I hired
Brothman.
The Chairman. Was it after your hired Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. After I hired Brothman.
The Chairman. Ruben came to you to give you his conclusions
after he had made a study of Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. He was interested in the case being a
journalist.
The Chairman. Where does he work?
Mr. Gaboriault. That I couldn't tell you. I have no idea. I
have never contacted him.
Mr. Carr. You don't know what paper--what magazine?
Mr. Gaboriault. I didn't question him on details as to his
employment.
The Chairman. You knew he was a writer, journalist----
Mr. Gaboriault. I know he----
The Chairman. But you relied on his judgment in this case?
Mr. Gaboriault. I can spend several hours with you and I
don't have to question your background to make up my opinion as
to what kind of fellow you are. If I want to go into a lot of
details, all right, I can do it. I got married without checking
the entire history of my wife. There are lots of things in her
life I know nothing about and don't care about.
The Chairman. How about this fellow Bill Ruben who came to
see you?
Mr. Gaboriault. He is from New York City.
The Chairman. Beyond that you know nothing.
Mr. Gaboriault. He writes.
The Chairman. And how long did he stay with you?
Mr. Gaboriault. I believe it was pretty close to twelve
hours the first time.
The Chairman. When I asked you whether or not Brothman had
convinced you that he had been improperly convicted, you said
``Yes'' and you based that partly upon Ruben's report to you.
Mr. Gaboriault. Partly on that.
The Chairman. I find now that Ruben saw you after you hired
Brothman. My question is: After talking to Brothman, were you
convinced that he was innocent?
Mr. Gaboriault. I felt that he was.
The Chairman. You didn't ask him whether he was a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Gaboriault. I didn't ask him as a direct question. I
was satisfied from the statement from him it was very definite.
I did not ask the question. The reason it was was this: I made
it very plain to him that I was not interested in anybody that
was involved in Communist activities and in no sense would I be
interested in keeping--now, he understood before he talked to
me----
The Chairman. Did you send your own car to Atlanta?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. How far is that, roughly? How many hundred
miles? You sent a car to pick him up. That is before you talked
to him?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is correct. I had said ``hello.''
The Chairman. At that time I assume you felt the jury that
convicted him were honest or they probably wouldn't have
convicted him? Did you have a chance to talk to him?
Mr. Gaboriault. Until I spoke to him I drew no conclusion
regarding the individual.
The Chairman. At this point may I say I don't think any man
of ordinary intelligence in listening to your testimony would
believe that you were trying to be truthful. It is a very
unusual procedure, you see. I say a man of ordinary
intelligence couldn't be convinced that you are trying to be
truthful.
You have a man in the penitentiary whom you have met once,
whom you do not know. You met his wife here during the trial.
You say you saw her twice during the two years when she stopped
at your office. On the basis of that, you go to all the expense
of sending a car down to the gates of the penitentiary to pick
up a man convicted of something which, while not called treason
technically, certainly would constitute treason. I assume you
would agree on that. You go to the expense of bringing him
back. You would think it was your long lost uncle. If you want
to tell us the rest of the story----
Mr. Gaboriault. That is why I asked if I shouldn't repeat
the story from the beginning. [To Mr. Carr] From what I have
related to you, as to how this took place, do you feel the same
way as the senator does?
Mr. Carr. Senator, he said he had seen work of designs laid
out by Brothman that he was interested in. Is that correct?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is correct.
Mr. Carr. And because he liked these designs he became
interested in Brothman; he thought that he might want to hire
Brothman. He also said that he had no interest in hiring
anybody connected with communism. However, in order to decide
that, he wanted to talk to Brothman himself. He had talked to
this man Ruben.
Mr. Gaboriault. If I can inject something so we don't get
out of chronological sequence, my decision was made to hire
Brothman, but it was subsequent to that I had discussions with
Ruben. A man goes through his entire life with certain doubts
in his mind.
The Chairman. You were convinced after you talked to
Brothman that the judge and jury and the grand jury that
indicted him were wrong and that the witnesses against him were
lying. Is that correct?
Mr. Gaboriault. I was convinced that the fellow was
entitled to a job working for me on the program that had been
laid out that I had had two years to think about.
The Chairman. All right. If you thought he was guilty; if
you thought that he advised an espionage agent to hold back the
truth, to lie to the grand jury; if he knew this espionage
agent so well that his advice was sought and accepted, assume
all those facts to be true, would you still think he should be
entitled to a job doing government work or work in which fifty
percent of it was government work?
Mr. Gaboriault. Don't misunderstand something.
The Chairman. That is a simple question.
Mr. Gaboriault. He is not working on government work. He is
on development work, on a program which he has----
The Chairman. He has access to the plant the same as
anybody else, doesn't he?
Mr. Gaboriault. He has free access to all the work.
The Chairman. It is a corporation, isn't it?
Mr. Gaboriault. It is a corporation.
The Chairman. Half of your income is from the government,
is it not? Roughly?
Mr. Gaboriault. At this time----
The Chairman. So that he is getting government money, isn't
he? You get the money from the government and it goes into the
corporation till. The government work is what helps to make the
company prosperous.
Mr. Gaboriault. Everything helps.
The Chairman. If you believed he had been properly
convicted; if you believed that he had the confidence of an
espionage agent, so close to him his advice was sought and he
advised this espionage agent to lie, to commit perjury about
something that affects the life and death of this nation; if
you believed that all those things were true, do you still
think he should have had this job?
Mr. Gaboriault. In other words, to put it bluntly, if I
were to believe he were active in the Communist party, should
he have the job?
The Chairman. If you believe he was properly convicted. You
know what the charge was. The charge was obstructing justice in
having advised an espionage agent to keep the truth about his
espionage activities from proper government officials.
Mr. Gaboriault. That is not what I was told.
The Chairman. What were you told?
Mr. Gaboriault. My understanding was that there was
something in the form of an alibi he was supposed to have
provided.
The Chairman. Did you ever check to see?
Mr. Gaboriault. I didn't check, no.
The Chairman. When you went to the expense of sending a car
to Atlanta, hiring a driver, did it ever occur to you you
should get the charge?
Mr. Gaboriault. [No answer.]
Mr. Carr. You see the position--it may be clear to you but
it does seem somewhat unusual that you should go to the trouble
of hiring this man.
Now, there is nothing wrong with hiring a man who has been
convicted of a crime after he has served his rightful sentence,
but you went to a good deal of trouble to hire him. You went to
what seems unusual trouble--sent a car down, all because you
thought the designs submitted for him, in his name, were of
such exceptional potential value to you you thought he was
worth the trouble and expense to get hold of this man?
Mr. Gaboriault. Definitely.
Mr. Carr. And you thought this man's background was such
you were willing to consider it, even after this expense, and
talked to him concerning his background and you were willing to
hire him. You were willing to expend the money to bring him up
here to talk to him. His designs were so good that you thought
it worth your time and trouble and money to bring the man up
for an interview and you were satisfied with his explanation.
You then hired him. Is that the story?
Mr. Gaboriault. Correct.
Mr. Carr. You say that you believe he was not justly
convicted? That is your belief after hearing what you have
heard about his case?
Mr. Gaboriault. Hearing what I have heard, reading in the
trade journal what I have read, understanding what is available
in literature of the contributions he made for which he got
nothing. One in particular was the contribution on the
synthetic rubber program for which he got nothing. He is as
much if not more American than I am. I have lived with the
fellow for over a year. He goes home at night to sleep when the
work is done. Once in a while on Sunday we are separated. We
put in twelve good months in this program. I have faith in him
and I know he has engineering ability to finish up the designs
he has got started.
The Chairman. Could I get back to my question? You said you
were never informed fully as to the charges against him; that
you thought it was because he gave the improper alibi. Is that
it?
Mr. Gaboriault. Initially it was extremely vague. Today my
understanding is that it had something to do with providing
something in the form of an alibi.
The Chairman. For an espionage agent?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. All right, if you believed that he furnished
an alibi for an espionage agent, a false alibi, do you feel
that he should have a job there?
Mr. Gaboriault. I do not believe he furnished the alibi.
The Chairman. Answer my question. You said that is what he
was charged with. If you felt that was true, that he gave a
false alibi, supplied a false alibi for an espionage agent,
would you think then that you should send a car to Atlanta and
bring him down and give him a job?
Mr. Gaboriault. If I believed it were true, what would have
happened would have been--the story--if I subsequently believed
it was true--the story that was relayed to him when he was
picked up was to the effect that I wasn't the kind of a guy
that would have anything to do with anyone involved in
communism.
The Chairman. Will you answer my question? I am going to
bring you back tomorrow and the day after that. I am getting
awfully sick of you giving us these evasive speeches. I asked
you a very simple question. I asked you whether or not you feel
this man had furnished a false alibi for an espionage agent and
if you felt then that you should have brought him back from
Atlanta.
Mr. Gaboriault. Gentlemen, if I felt he had furnished a
false alibi, I would have brought him back and given him the
job.
The Chairman. I thought that was the way you felt, but it
has taken a long time to get it out of you.
Do you think that a man who gives a false alibi to an
espionage agent is guilty of a serious crime against his
country?
Mr. Gaboriault. If he does it knowingly, yes.
The Chairman. Do you think that a man who is guilty of such
a crime against his country should be drawing pay, money which
is supplied by the citizens of his country?
Mr. Gaboriault. I have had an influx of loans to pay for
our development.
The Chairman. Will the reporter read the question?
[The question was read by the reporter.]
Mr. Gaboriault. I have no fixed----
The Chairman. Do you think that a contractor, a man in your
business, who would say, ``Yes, I would hire a man even though
I knew he gave a false alibi, supplied a false alibi for an
espionage agent,'' do you think such a man should ever again
get one cent in government contracts? That is a pretty simple
question.
Mr. Gaboriault. It does go back to another one where you
said ``false alibi.'' If a man knowingly furnished an alibi----
The Chairman. No, the question involves you now, not the
man who furnished the alibi. Do you think that a man in your
position, doing your type of business who say, ``I would hire a
man even though I knew that he had given a false alibi for an
espionage agent, do you think such a man should ever again get
another cent in government contracts?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Thank you, and I agree. I hope the government
refuses to.
The Chairman. Have you ever been asked to join the
Communist party?
Mr. Gaboriault. Never.
The Chairman. Have you ever gone to any Communist meetings?
Mr. Gaboriault. Never.
The Chairman. You never attended any meetings at all of the
Communist party?
Mr. Gaboriault. Never.
The Chairman. You are sure of that?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes, I am sure. I have never been
interested to any extent in any Communist activities.
The Chairman. No. The question is: Did you ever attend
Communist meetings?
Mr. Gaboriault. [No answer.]
The Chairman. I am advising you to either tell the truth or
refuse to answer.
Mr. Gaboriault. I am here to tell the truth. I am not going
to refuse to answer any questions you ask.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any Communist party
meetings?
Mr. Gaboriault. The answer to that is ``no.''
The Chairman. Did your wife ever attend any?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Were there ever any meetings of the Communist
party in your home?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Do you know any Communists?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. You say that in your opinion Brothman is not
a Communist?
Mr. Gaboriault. Right.
The Chairman. Are you related to Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Is your wife related to him?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Are you or your wife related to his wife?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Did you know why a man serving time for
income tax evasion wanted to do something for Brothman? Is he
related?
Mr. Gaboriault. The reason was purely industrial.
The Chairman. Had he known Brothman?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. He had never met Brothman before?
Mr. Gaboriault. My understanding was he had never met
Brothman until the trial took place.
The Chairman. You say you never talked to Mrs. Brothman
about giving Brothman a job; that the arrangements were made by
someone else.
Mr. Gaboriault. That is the best of my memory. That is the
way it transpired.
The Chairman. You say you only saw her twice while Brothman
was in jail and on those two occasions she came to the plant.
Is that right?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is right.
The Chairman. And Herman Goldfarb, I believe you said he
worked for you. Is that correct?
Mr. Gaboriault. Right.
The Chairman. Is he still working for you?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. Had he been a friend of Brothman's?
Mr. Gaboriault. Employee.
The Chairman. Employee of Brothman's?
Mr. Gaboriault. Yes.
The Chairman. What type of business did Brothman have?
Mr. Gaboriault. He had a chemical processing plant of some
sort. I believe it was a methylic plant.
The Chairman. Is he a chemist? Is that his profession?
Mr. Gaboriault. Right.
The Chairman. Does he work with the chemists in your plant?
Mr. Gaboriault. Equipment development involving knowledge
of chemistry as well as mechanical knowledge.
The Chairman. And how often did you say you have visited
his home since he has been working for you?
Mr. Gaboriault. Half a dozen times.
The Chairman. In other words, you are very close friends.
Is that right?
Mr. Gaboriault. I don't think I have a closer friend. I say
close friend because in the past year we have had to work
closely together. I have come to know him fairly well.
The Chairman. What is your feeling about a man who refuses
to state, has of today, whether he is committing espionage
against his country--refusal on the ground that a truthful
answer might tend to incriminate him?
Mr. Gaboriault. Fear.
The Chairman. Fear of what?
Mr. Gaboriault. Fear of distortion.
The Chairman. Well, now. What were the distortions?
Mr. Gaboriault. [No answer.]
The Chairman. If he were not committing espionage today and
says ``no,'' is that more dangerous than if he said, ``I refuse
to answer because if I told the truth it would incriminate
me''?
I am curious to know what distortions you have in mind.
Someone says, ``Are you a traitor?'' If he says, ``No,'' that
cannot be distorted.
Mr. Gaboriault. I am a businessman. I do not try to be a
lawyer. I answered with the simple word ``fear.'' To go beyond
that, the fear involved is something which is not in an
individual. It is in people. The fear even gets down to this. I
have been very civic minded all my life. I am buying a house in
Port Jervis. The woman I am buying it from was called by a
neighbor and told that she shouldn't sell the house. Then this
woman I was buying the house from called my wife and told my
wife she understood the sale was being made to a bunch of
Communists.
When I get back to Port Jervis--I am a member of the
Kiwanis, board of directors of the Y, Elks Club, and to have
been just called in front of a group has a certain amount of
stigma. That is not solely with me. That is something that
prevails. There is nothing I can do about it. The truth is
there. It is discussed amongst the people. This is a free
country. The people talk about it.
The Chairman. You said the man refused to tell whether he
is an espionage agent because of fear. If he were not an
espionage agent, can you think of any reason why he wouldn't
frankly say ``no.''
Mr. Gaboriault. I am scared. I am full of fear.
The Chairman. Are you an espionage agent?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Were you afraid to answer that?
Mr. Gaboriault. Why should I be afraid? I have never gone
through anything like this before.
The Chairman. If you were an espionage agent, then you
would be afraid to answer. If you were an espionage agent, you
would refuse to answer. Not being one, you can say ``no.''
Mr. Gaboriault. I have been through nothing.
The Chairman. In other words, if he is not an espionage
agent he can say ``no''?
Mr. Gaboriault. Correct.
The Chairman. When a man comes in and says he can't tell
you whether he is an espionage agent because if he were to tell
you the truth he might go to jail, when he refuses to answer on
the grounds that his answer might tend to incriminate him, is
that an indication to you that he is an espionage agent?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. You think it doesn't indicate that?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. If he says, ``If I told the truth, it would
tend to incriminate me'' and he is not an espionage agent, then
he must be lying and should answer the question ``No.''
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. If he is not an espionage agent, how would
that incriminate him?
Mr. Gaboriault. Different individuals react differently to
fear.
The Chairman. Do you agree that if he is not an espionage
agent and answers ``No,'' his answer would not incriminate him?
Mr. Gaboriault. That is my feeling. That is the way I feel
about it. I am not involved politically or any fashion. I am
involved in nothing.
The Chairman. But you have no objection to keeping a man on
in government work if he refuses to state whether he is an
espionage agent on the grounds that his answer might tend to
incriminate him?
Mr. Gaboriault. In this case I would do a lot of thinking
about it.
The Chairman. Let's take a situation. Let's assume Mr. John
Jones is working on government work and he refuses to state
whether he is committing espionage against the government. He
says, ``If I tell you that, my answer might tend to incriminate
me.'' Would you have to do a lot of thinking before you decided
to fire him?
Mr. Gaboriault. I'd be afraid of him.
The Chairman. Would you let him go?
Mr. Gaboriault. If I didn't think I knew him.
The Chairman. What if you knew him?
Mr. Gaboriault. If I knew him, I'd want to do a lot of
thinking about it.
The Chairman. The mere fact that a man would not tell
whether or not he is committing espionage would not be grounds
to fire him. You would want to go further than that?
Mr. Gaboriault. Right.
The Chairman. I think we have got the complete explanation
of why he hired him.
Mr. Carr. Why would there be any thought in the mind of
anybody there in the community which would lead someone to say
to your wife or to some of your people in the neighborhood that
a bunch of Communists were moving in?
Mr. Gaboriault. Because of what came out in the newspaper
and in the news. I have seen it. I have seen it happen in the
papers. I have friends who are anti-Communist who, in my
opinion, are fanatical. I try to be fanatical about nothing. I
have heard them talk. I haven't felt as sorry for some poor guy
who might have been mislead as I have felt sorry for them.
The Chairman. In other words, it is the anti-Communists who
get you disturbed when----
Mr. Gaboriault. When they are extremely fanatical.
The Chairman. You say you think a man who is misled into
becoming a Communist----
Mr. Gaboriault. In Salem, Massachusetts, they use to burn
witches.
The Chairman. That is a simple question.
Are you saying that the people who get excited about a
criminal and want to expose him are worse than the criminal?
Mr. Gaboriault. No, I don't.
The Chairman. Do you think the people who get excited about
communism, do you think they are worse than the Communists?
Mr. Gaboriault. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Let's assume they get fanatical about
communism. Do you think they are worse than the Communists are?
Mr. Gaboriault. No, I don't feel they are worse than the
Communists. Don't twist that answer around.
The Chairman. I thought that is what you said. I thought
you said persons who were misled----
Mr. Gaboriault. They are in a position to do no good and a
lot of harm. I am not speaking about you people on these
committees.
The Chairman. How about a layman who gets excited about a
Communist teacher teaching your children? How about a layman up
in your town who gets concerned about a Communist teacher
teaching his and your children. He can do some good.
Mr. Gaboriault. It is up to him to turn it over to the
right authority. The proper authorities should handle those
problems. When an individual goes around slandering people,
saying he is a Communist because of personal prejudice, there
is a certain amount of unfairness. When it is handled by
competent authorities, that becomes a different story.
The Chairman. I think we are gaining nothing by prolonging
this.
Who is the man that said you were a bunch of Communists,
when you were buying this home?
Mr. Gaboriault. I'd rather not repeat it. I don't want to
get individuals involved. I have lived my life in a small town
and I have a lot of friends. I hope I have friends when I get
back.
The Chairman. I think we have nothing further. You will be
called for public session.
I may say that your name will not be given to the press
unless you give it to them.
Mr. Gaboriault. I won't give it to them.
The Chairman. You are perfectly free. This is executive
session. No one else here discusses what went on--what the
witness said or what he didn't say.
If you want to examine your testimony to correct it for
typographical errors, you can do that by contacting counsel.
Mr. Gaboriault. Who is counsel?
The Chairman. You can write the committee at 101, Senate
Office Building.
Mr. Gaboriault. There is one thing I would like to say,
which to me I don't care to say but I feel I have got to.
Yesterday afternoon, in fact all day yesterday I was out. I got
back just a little after five o'clock to vote. After voting I
tried to get your Mr. Buckley and I couldn't do it. I started
on down to Jersey City and on the way I called back to the
plant to find out whether or not any calls had come in.
I can understand the type of people you run into, but you
intimidated, they felt intimidated, one of my employees and my
wife. There was no need of it.
Mr. Buckley. I tried for a period of eight hours to get in
touch with Mr. Gaboriault personally and was unable to do so.
His wife informed the telephone company that she didn't want to
be annoyed with the committee. He may feel intimidated.
The Chairman. What do you claim he did to intimidate your
wife? If any of my staff has intimidated your wife, I want to
know about it.
Mr. Gaboriault. The office employee that was called has no
right to talk to anybody about anything. I am an officer of the
company. He was threatened with government action, over the
phone, and things of that nature. What you said was
unimportant.
How he took it was extremely important. What you said to my
wife was unimportant.
Mr. Buckley. Tell us why your wife over a period of eight
hours refused to tell where you were?
Mr. Gaboriault. She did not know where I was. At election
time I told her I was out around the town, around the polls,
newspaper office, lawyer's office, where we were supposed to
meet. I told her I would be out; that I would not be available;
that I would be back later. She did her best to contact me. The
United Press and A.P. were all calling.
The Chairman. What was said to her to intimidate her? Was
it the repeated calls to get you?
Mr. Gaboriault. It was the repeated calls to get me.
The Chairman. Is that improper, do you think?
Mr. Gaboriault. The intimidation is in the words you used
when you called. You were accusing her of evading you.
Mr. Buckley. I said to you wife, ``I think your husband may
be attempting to avoid these telephone calls.'' I said, ``I
think he would do himself a service if he returned the calls.''
We had a very pleasant telephone conversation.
The Chairman. Just one question. Were you with Brothman
last night and yesterday?
Mr. Gaboriault. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Were you both together at Democratic
headquarters?
Mr. Gaboriault. We went over to the firehouse where I voted
and we did not go to Democratic headquarters. We then went back
to my office.
The Chairman. You were not at Democratic headquarters?
Mr. Gaboriault. No.
The Chairman. Okay. You will be released for the time
being. Consider yourself under subpoena. We will notify you if
and when we want you again.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM BROTHMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WILLIAM ROSSMOORE) (RESUMED)
The Chairman. Mr. Brothman, is it correct that Mr.
Gaboriault had a car and chauffeur pick you up at the
penitentiary at Atlanta when you were released?
Mr. Brothman. Excuse me, Senator. Before I left I was given
time to consult on some questions and I believe that you can
reformulate those questions again.
The Chairman. In view of the fact the witness did not have
what we consider sufficient time to consult with counsel before
he appeared here today, the chair will extend to him the
privilege of changing his answers after consulting with
counsel.
I am not asking you each individual question.
You were asked previously when you refused to answer
certain question whether you felt if you were to answer those
questions your answer might tend to incriminate you. You
previously refused to say ``Yes'' or ``No.'' If you care to
change your answer, you may.
Mr. Brothman. Yes.
The Chairman. In other words, your answer now is you feel
that may tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Brothman. Yes.
The Chairman. Then the chair will cancel the order to
answer those questions.
Mr. Brothman. Would you mind? There were three questions,
as I recall. Could I hear them?
The Chairman. In all cases where you took the Fifth
Amendment, unless you felt that your answer would tend to
incriminate you, you were not entitled to take it. I am just
trying to give you a chance to have one blanket answer to those
question. I don't want to trap you into any indictment,
criminal activity. I merely give you a chance to go over them
in blanket.
In all cases where you took advantage of the Fifth
Amendment and refused to answer on the basis of the Fifth
Amendment, is it your testimony if you had answered, you answer
to those various questions would tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Brothman. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, if you want to answer some of those
questions, that is a different situation?
Mr. Brothman. No, I would just like to answer those three.
The Chairman. Could you recall what they were about?
Mr. Brothman. They had to do with Gaboriault.
If I may consult.
Mr. Rossmoore. I don't think the witness understood that
you had removed the direction to answer those particular
questions. I am not sure what they were. You removed the
direction because of his recent answer and there is no point in
going back to those questions.
The Chairman. I just feel that he has a right to change his
answer to that because he didn't have a chance to consult with
counsel at sufficient length. If he says his answer might tend
to incriminate him, he is entitled not to answer. If after
thinking it over, he wants to answer, we will be glad to re-ask
those.
Did Norman Gaboriault send a car to Atlanta with a
chauffeur and pick you up and bring you here?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer that question on the
grounds of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Just to save time, I assume that you will
decline to answer any questions having to do with Gaboriault on
the grounds of the Fifth Amendment. Is that correct?
Mr. Brothman. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. You didn't want to change your answer as to
whether you engaged in espionage in the last week?
Mr. Brothman. I don't want to change that.
Mr. Cohn. Where is Miriam Moskowitz these days?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer on the grounds of
possible self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Do you know Herman Goldfarb?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. What salary do you draw?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer, invoking my privilege
under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you have free run of the plant at which
you are now working?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Have you removed any material from the plant
and given it to an espionage agent in the last year?
Mr. Brothman. I decline to answer, invoking my privilege
under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you feel that a man who refuses to tell
the committee whether he is committing espionage against the
country should be drawing money from a company supported by the
government?
Mr. Brothman. I don't think I care to express an opinion on
that, Senator.
The Chairman. You may step down. He is excused for the time
being. We will let you know when we want him again.
Do we have your address?
Mr. Rossmoore. 60 Park Place, Newark, Mitchell 2-2051.
TESTIMONY OF HARVEY SACHS (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, SHERMAN
LAWRENCE) (RESUMED)
Mr. Cohn. You have been sworn.
Did we get your counsel's name?
Mr. Lawrence. Sherman Lawrence, 645 Madison Avenue, New
York, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Sachs, where are you employed now?
Mr. Sachs. Shore Television Corporation in Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. And does that company do any work for the
government?
Mr. Sachs. We have two contracts at the present time.
Mr. Cohn. From where?
Mr. Sachs. One with the Signal Corps and one with the air
force.
Mr. Cohn. Any classified material at all?
Mr. Sachs. No, there is not.
Mr. Cohn. How large are those contracts?
Mr. Sachs. The Signal Corps contract is approximately
$3,000 and the air force contract is in the amount of $5,000.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever done any classified work for the
government while with the Shore Television Company?
Mr. Sachs. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever worked for the government?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. For the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I worked for the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. And before you went to the government, did you go
to Cooper Union?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I attended Cooper Union.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Young Communist League
at Cooper Union?
Mr. Sachs. I believe you asked that question when I was
here before and I stated to the best of my recollection I was
not.
Mr. Cohn. What is your answer tonight?
Mr. Sachs. Well, it was brought out to me I had attended
some meetings, which were stated to be Young Communist League
meetings. I stated that I recollected attending meetings that I
thought were American Student Union meetings. They might have
been Young Communist League meetings for all I know. When I
went to school I attended many meetings and I can't possibly
recall whether they were specifically American Student Union
meetings or Young Communist League meetings or what have you.
Mr. Cohn. Now, whatever the organizations were that
sponsored those meetings, were you a member of those
organizations, or don't you know?
Mr. Sachs. Well, I'd like to know what membership
constitutes.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of any organization?
Mr. Sachs. If attending a meeting constitutes membership, I
would be described as a member.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever contribute any money?
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall. I might have.
Mr. Cohn. Who was at these meetings? Name the people.
The Chairman. I think that was a good suggestion.
Mr. Sachs. You mean generally speaking.
Mr. Cohn. Specific people you recall.
Mr. Sachs. I stated to the committee the last time I was
here I specifically remember having attended with one, perhaps
two persons. I remember two people in the class at that time.
Mr. Cohn. What are their names?
Mr. Sachs. Ralph Cricker and Alfred Sarant.
Mr. Cohn. Was Sarant a Communist?
Mr. Sachs. That is something I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. You wouldn't know?
Mr. Sachs. I wouldn't know for a fact.
Mr. Cohn. I am not talking about party membership. I am
asking you whether or not he was a Communist. Did you have any
discussions with Mr. Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. From those discussions couldn't you form an
opinion as to whether or not he was a Communist?
Mr. Sachs. From those discussions I would say he was
idealistically inclined towards the Communist viewpoint.
The Chairman. May I interrupt? As a courtesy to the
witness, I think we should tell you that we have considerable
testimony here to the effect that you belonged to the Young
Communist League; that you attended meetings, paid dues and
that sort of thing. I am not saying that we believe that over
your testimony, but I think you should know that the testimony
is here. This is executive session and you haven't heard it.
There is also testimony that a number of times in your
presence, Sarant made it completely clear he was a Communist.
Again I say, I am giving you this material to help refresh your
recollection.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anyone you recall other than Mr. Sarant
and Mr. Cricker?
Mr. Sachs. No one in particular.
Mr. Cohn. Anyone at all?
Mr. Sachs. I have searched my memory on these matters and
truthfully, I can't recall anyone outside those two people.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall a man named Fred Kitty?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I do.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall him at any of these meetings?
Mr. Sachs. He might have been. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any recollection of him having been
there?
Mr. Sachs. I wouldn't recall.
Mr. Lawrence. I'd like, for the purpose of the record, to
provide the committee with the information that you are talking
about something that happened fifteen years ago when this
individual was eighteen years of age.
The Chairman. I know that.
Mr. Lawrence. I'd like to put on the record the fact the
time limitation and his age--I do not regard his not
remembering as any lack of cooperation on his part inasmuch as
it might be lapse of memory.
The Chairman. Do you have a poor memory?
Mr. Sachs. No.
The Chairman. You are the only one we have had who doesn't
remember more names.
Mr. Sachs. I am sorry.
The Chairman. I am not setting up a quantity of names of
this group of people who you should remember were in attendance
at these meetings.
Mr. Sachs. As stated, I discussed this with counsel and
have gone over this and tried to recall additional names of
people and I do not recall them.
Mr. Cohn. Where is Mr. Cricker now?
Mr. Sachs. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you went to work for the Signal Corps. Is
that right?
Mr. Sachs. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. And you worked in Evans Signal Laboratory?
Mr. Sachs. For a time, yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you see Mr. Sarant after you left Cooper
Union?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you see Mr. Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. I saw him at various times. Is there some
specific period you are interested in.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. Back in 1946 was the last time.
Mr. Cohn. What were the circumstances of that?
Mr. Sachs. The circumstances of that was that it was
sometime after I came out of the navy. I had gotten married and
I was living in Ashbury Park at the time and had returned to
New York to visit my mother-in-law with my wife, and by chance
Sarant called there when we were there and invited us over to
say ``hello.''
Mr. Cohn. What year was that?
Mr. Sachs. That was in 1946.
Mr. Lawrence. Have you seen Mr. Sarant since then?
Mr. Sachs. I did see him about three weeks after that time
briefly in the company of his wife. He suggested that I meet
her. It was a strictly social visit. I have never seen them
since.
Mr. Cohn. Did you see Mr. Sarant during the period you were
working for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Was he working there?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, sir. He worked for the Fort Monmouth Signal
Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. What was he doing?
Mr. Sachs. He was an engineer.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work? Do you recall?
Mr. Sachs. I wasn't in the same section he was in.
Mr. Cohn. From anything he said, would you recall
generally?
Mr. Sachs. Well, it is hard to recall specifically.
Electrical engineering work.
Mr. Cohn. Was he working on radar?
Mr. Sachs. I believe he was assigned to the meteorology
section. I don't think he was doing work on radar. I don't
know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist at the time he
was working at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sachs. I would like at this time to distinguish between
membership in the Communist party or someone addicted to the
idea.
Mr. Cohn. The fact that he has a party card means nothing.
Mr. Sachs. At that time I believe that he was
idealistically inclined towards communism.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think he should have been working for the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Lawrence. Do you know he was working on classified
material?
Mr. Sachs. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know anybody in his category not working
on some classified material? Do you know an electrical engineer
doing the work Mr. Sarant was doing who didn't have access to
classified material?
Mr. Sachs. That is a broad question. I wouldn't know. I
haven't worked for them in a long time.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know other persons Communistically
inclined or addicted that worked down at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sachs. That is a broad field. I haven't associated with
people of that type for a long time.
Mr. Cohn. Sarant is one you recall. Think back. Were there
others?
Mr. Sachs. You mean specifically?
Mr. Cohn. That were idealistically inclined as Sarant was?
Mr. Sachs. One other fellow whose name I brought up.
Mr. Cohn. Who is that?
Mr. Sachs. Joel Barr.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Joel Barr?
Mr. Sachs. The best I recall, it was probably in the very
early part of 1942, through Sarant.
Mr. Cohn. And what were the circumstances, as best you
recall?
Mr. Sachs. As best I recall, Barr came to visit Sarant. I
think they worked in the same section together.
Mr. Cohn. Did you say Barr came to visit him? Where did he
come to visit him?
Mr. Sachs. In a house where I lived with Sarant.
Mr. Cohn. When did you live with Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. From October of 1941 until the end of March of
1942.
The Chairman. I didn't get the last?
Mr. Sachs. The end of March 1942. At the end of March 1942,
I was assigned to Baltimore, Maryland to work at the--if you
are interested in that detail?
Mr. Cohn. No. The other interests me more. For a period of
six months you lived with Sarant. Who else?
Mr. Sachs. One other fellow lived there to.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mr. Sachs. Benjamin Lewis.
Mr. Cohn. Was that Benjamin G. Lewis?
Mr. Sachs. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Now, was Mr. Lewis a Communist or Communistically
inclined?
Mr. Sachs. I would state he certainly was not.
Mr. Cohn. Did he argue with Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. I would say he did.
Mr. Cohn. Did he?
Mr. Sachs. Oh, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, was Barr pretty friendly with Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. Apparently. Apparently they were on friendly
terms.
Mr. Cohn. Barr came to see Sarant. Did he come to see you?
Mr. Sachs. Not particularly, no.
Mr. Cohn. Who would you say he came to see?
Mr. Sachs. Probably more to see Sarant than myself.
Mr. Cohn. Barr was also working down at Fort Monmouth,
wasn't he?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I believe he was.
The Chairman. Did the witness say Barr had come to see him?
Mr. Sachs. To see me specifically?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sachs. He came to see Sarant probably. He may have seen
me if I was there.
The Chairman. Was he a good friend of yours too?
Mr. Sachs. I wouldn't think he was a particularly good
friend, no.
The Chairman. Were you friendly?
Mr. Sachs. We weren't enemies.
The Chairman. Did Barr ever stay overnight there?
Mr. Sachs. At that time that I lived there?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall that he stayed there overnight.
The Chairman. Actually he stayed there on four different
occasion, didn't he, overnight?
[Off-record discussion.]
Isn't it true that Barr stayed at your place on at least
four different occasions?
Mr. Sachs. He may have, sir.
The Chairman. But you don't recall that?
Mr. Sachs. No.
The Chairman. Now, would you describe the apartment? How
many rooms were in it?
Mr. Sachs. It wasn't an apartment. It was a house.
The Chairman. Oh. How many rooms in the house? If you know?
Mr. Sachs. [No answer.]
The Chairman. If you don't know--did you have a separate
bedroom?
Mr. Sachs. I think there were six rooms in the house.
The Chairman. And were they all rented out?
Mr. Sachs. Well, the three fellows who lived there, we
rented the house. It was ours at that time.
The Chairman. There was a kitchen too?
Mr. Sachs. Yes.
The Chairman. There was a dining room----
Mr. Sachs. There was a dining room, a living room, a
kitchen and three bedrooms upstairs.
The Chairman. Did you cook in the kitchen at times?
Mr. Sachs. I suppose we did. Yes, we did.
The Chairman. Who was the man who used to make cooking
somewhat of a hobby in the evenings? Was that Barr?
Mr. Sachs. No, I don't recall him having had much to do
with that aspect.
The Chairman. Now, when you were living with Sarant, did
you ever have any reason to think he was either a Communist or
sympathetic to communism?
Mr. Sachs. Well, based on the discussions that we had
together, I would say, as I have said before, that he was
idealistically inclined towards communism.
The Chairman. Did you agree or disagree?
Mr. Sachs. At that time I probably agreed with him a
considerable portion of the time.
The Chairman. How about Barr? Did you have any reason to
believe he was an espionage agent?
Mr. Sachs. I certainly wouldn't have any reason to believe
it at that time.
The Chairman. You were working where when you roomed with
Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. During the period of October 1941 until the end
of March of 1942 when I lived with them, I was working at the
Fort Hancock Section of the Fort Monmouth Signal Laboratories.
However, about the beginning of March, I started doing some
field trips and at the end of March I was transferred to
Baltimore, Maryland.
The Chairman. When Barr would come to the house did he ever
ask about the work you were doing in the signal laboratories?
Mr. Sachs. That is something I can't recall.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever discussed it with him?
Mr. Sachs. Possibly, but I can't recall specifically.
The Chairman. Do this if you will. Don't think you are a
defendant here accused of anything at all. You have been named
as one of the people who could give us information about Joel
Barr who has now gone to Russia, is behind the Iron Curtain,
and clearly an espionage agent, clearly an espionage agent at
that time. We realize to be successful, an espionage agent must
be able to deceive a lot of fine people. This committee does
not take the position that because you or anyone else happens
to be a friend of Joel Barr that you are guilty of any
misconduct. One of the principal reasons you were called in was
that we know the close association between you and Sarant.
Sarant according to all testimony, is a Communist.
You know Joel Barr. He use to come to your house and visit.
The testimony is that he stayed overnight there, and I hoped
that you might be able to give us some information that would
be helpful. Don't take the attitude that you are on trial. You
are in here to give us information. I know that it is an
unusual experience for most people to come before a Senate
committee. We know that sometimes your memory is not as good as
normal, but I wish you would try and remember what happened. We
know that Barr was an espionage agent at that time. You were
handling secret material. It would be unusual if he didn't try
to get the information from you. The fact that he tried doesn't
make you guilty of any crime.
I wish you'd search your mind and tell us what Barr did
when there. Here is Barr, an espionage agent, and Sarant,
apparently a Communist. What would the discussions be about?
Would they attempt to get information about what you were
doing?
Mr. Sachs. Frankly, Senator, I don't recall that they did.
I would like to say again that I have really gone over this
with my counsel. I have had time to search my memory and put
down on paper all the things I could recall, to the best of my
ability, and details like this you bring up are things which,
frankly, I don't recall. Certain things I can recall. That was
truthfully thirteen years ago or actually twelve years ago and
it is hard for me to remember except some salient details stand
out.
The Chairman. What kind of work were you doing in the
Signal Corps at that particular time?
Mr. Sachs. At that particular time I was doing life test
work for a while. I was recording data on various processes.
The Chairman. What is life test work?
Mr. Sachs. Studying performance data on equipment failures
and, I think, right after the beginning of 1942 I was
reassigned to another section where I was doing special
writing, something like this. I think I testified to this
already.
The Chairman. How long did you work in the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sachs. I worked for the Signal Corps from July of 1941
until April of 1944, when I was drafted into the navy.
The Chairman. And after you and Sarant were no longer
living together, who did you live with then?
Mr. Sachs. Well, I moved to Baltimore, Maryland and lived
there about two months and then I went to Sunberry,
Pennsylvania.
The Chairman. Who did you live with in Baltimore?
Mr. Sachs. I roomed in a rooming house. I don't recall
having lived with anyone in particular, just a rooming house.
The Chairman. What kind of working were you doing there?
Mr. Sachs. I was the inspector in charge of the group
inspecting material from the Westinghouse Electric
Manufacturing Company.
The Chairman. Was that classified material?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, it was.
The Chairman. Did you ever see Barr while over in
Baltimore?
Mr. Sachs. You mean in Baltimore?
The Chairman. Yes. When you were in Baltimore doing this
job inspecting?
Mr. Sachs. I don't think so.
The Chairman. I may say the report here indicates you did.
Again I am not saying the report is right and you are wrong. I
give you that information to refresh your memory.
Mr. Sachs. That he saw me in Baltimore?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sachs. I can't recall.
The Chairman. Do you recall having had dinner at a
restaurant called Miller's Restaurant with Barr?
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall anything like that.
The Chairman. You were in Baltimore in 1945? Right?
Mr. Sachs. 1942.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon. 1942 it is.
Mr. Sachs. I was just in Baltimore for two months in 1942.
The Chairman. In 1942 you were there?
Mr. Sachs. That is right.
The Chairman. Were you inspecting equipment which the mill
was purchasing?
Mr. Sachs. That is right.
The Chairman. And what type of equipment was that?
Mr. Sachs. That was radar equipment.
The Chairman. And is it your testimony that you did not see
Barr, never had dinner with him in a restaurant in Baltimore?
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall having had dinner with him.
The Chairman. You went into service in 1944. When did you
come out?
Mr. Sachs. 1946.
The Chairman. Then where did you go to work?
Mr. Sachs. I went to work for the, I think it is called,
Watson Laboratories. The Air Force Division.
The Chairman. And how long did you work there?
Mr. Sachs. I stayed there one month.
The Chairman. Then where did you go?
Mr. Sachs. I resigned. I decided to go into business with
another man--to start my own business.
The Chairman. Did you go into business then?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. Are you still in that business?
Mr. Sachs. No.
The Chairman. How long did you stay in that business?
Mr. Sachs. We had that business for a little over two
years.
The Chairman. And then did you quit?
Mr. Sachs. Yes.
The Chairman. Who was the other man?
Mr. Sachs. Joseph Risner.
The Chairman. Then what did you do?
Mr. Sachs. Then both he and I joined the formation of
another company in Red Bank.
The Chairman. What was the name of that company?
Mr. Sachs. Video Products Corporation.
The Chairman. How long were you in that business?
Mr. Sachs. About fifteen months.
The Chairman. Then what did you do?
Mr. Sachs. Then I went to work for Shore Television.
The Chairman. Are you still working for them?
Mr. Sachs. I still am.
The Chairman. Does this company you are now working for do
any work for the government?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, they do.
The Chairman. Classified?
Mr. Sachs. No, it is not.
The Chairman. When you were at Watson Laboratories did you
know a man called Coleman?
Mr. Sachs. At Watson Laboratories?
The Chairman. While you were at Watson Laboratories?
Mr. Sachs. Yes I did.
The Chairman. Did you ever furnish him any material?
Mr. Sachs. Of what nature?
The Chairman. Classified material?
Mr. Sachs. At that time?
The Chairman. At that time.
Mr. Sachs. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Cohn. Did you remember Coleman as being a Communist?
The Chairman. Can you tell us whether you thought Coleman
was Communistically inclined?
Mr. Sachs. In my personal opinion, I don't believe that he
was, but I can only say that as a matter of personal opinion.
The Chairman. Did he ever visit Barr or Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. I don't think he did, although I wouldn't know
it.
The Chairman. Who were some of the people who visited
Sarant, in addition to Barr, when you and Sarant were living
together?
Mr. Sachs. Individual names? I can recall that we probably
had some of the other employees, but it is hard to recall
individual people.
The Chairman. You don't recall any other names?
Mr. Sachs. Not off-hand.
The Chairman. You can't recall anybody else besides Barr?
How about Julius Rosenberg? Do you know him?
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall knowing him.
The Chairman. Didn't Rosenberg visit the apartment also?
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall it.
The Chairman. How about Morton Sobell?
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall.
The Chairman. You don't recall whether Rosenberg did or did
not?
Mr. Sachs. No.
The Chairman. How about Morton Sobell?
Mr. Sachs. I don't think he did.
The Chairman. Do you know Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Sachs. It doesn't sound familiar.
The Chairman. Did you know Joseph Levitsky at Cooper Union?
Mr. Sachs. I might have but it doesn't sound familiar to
me.
The Chairman. You knew Fred Kitty, did you not?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. Did you see him down at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. Did he ever visit Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. That is something I wouldn't know.
The Chairman. Did Sarant ever have documents at home in the
apartment, documents which he had brought from the Laboratory?
Mr. Sachs. Again that is something I wouldn't know. I can't
recall.
The Chairman. You don't have any mental picture of Sarant
with any papers he would bring home from work?
Mr. Sachs. None in particular.
The Chairman. Do you have any recollection of Sarant and
Barr exchanging any papers?
Mr. Sachs. None in particular that I can recall.
The Chairman. What makes you say Sarant and Barr were
Communistically inclined--from things they said?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I would say so.
The Chairman. Anything else?
Mr. Sachs. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Did Sarant get the Daily Worker?
Mr. Sachs. He might have. That is a detail I can't recall.
The Chairman. Wouldn't that have made an impression on
you--if a fellow you were rooming with was getting the Daily
Worker every day?
Mr. Sachs. If it were now I would get a definite impression
but that was sometime ago. At that time my interests were quite
diverse.
The Chairman. Did you know Sarant and Barr were Soviet
espionage agents at that time?
Mr. Sachs. At that time I wouldn't know.
The Chairman. Do you know it now?
Mr. Sachs. I know it because I was told that by this FBI
agent who interviewed me last year who told me that they were.
The Chairman. Did you ever visit Coleman's apartment?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. Did you see any classified material in the
apartment when you visited him?
For your information, army intelligence raided the
apartment and picked up a vast amount of secret material.
Coleman has testified the material was lying around there for
months and months. I wonder if you saw any of it?
Mr. Sachs. I might have but it doesn't definitely make any
impression.
The Chairman. Wouldn't it make an impression if you had
seen material there marked secret? It would shock the average
man. I am wondering what your reaction would be.
Mr. Sachs. If I can't specifically recall that I saw it, I
would not have an impression of it and I can't form an opinion.
The Chairman. When did you visit the apartment? What years?
Mr. Sachs. That is probably sometime in the period I was at
Fort Monmouth. It could be anywhere from the time I started to
work there until the time I left--stopped living in that area.
Mr. Cohn. What years?
Mr. Sachs. Between 1941 and 1950.
Mr. Cohn. How close to the time you left there in 1950 did
you visit Coleman's apartment?
Mr. Sachs. At the time that he was living there?
The Chairman. Naturally, you wouldn't visit him there
unless he lived there. You know what we mean.
Mr. Sachs. I am trying to recall to the best of my ability,
Senator. People lived there subsequently.
The Chairman. When was the last time you visited Coleman
while he was in the apartment or home or anything else.
Mr. Sachs. The last time that I was with Coleman or visited
Coleman in the apartment which he lived, as I recall, was at
the time that he went into the Marine Corps which was----
Mr. Cohn. 1944?
Mr. Sachs. No, it was the end of 1943.
The Chairman. Now, when did you last work for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Sachs. In April of 1944.
The Chairman. That is the last time you worked for the
Signal Corps? You worked for Watson Laboratories after that?
Mr. Sachs. For one month. That is right.
The Chairman. When at Watson Laboratories did you ever give
to Coleman any classified material?
Mr. Sachs. Not that I can recall.
The Chairman. You say not that you can remember?
Mr. Sachs. Not that I can remember.
The Chairman. Do you have any idea whether you did or not?
Some of the documents found in his apartment were from Watson
Laboratories?
Mr. Cohn. Wouldn't you remember if you took secret
documents, classified documents, and handed them to somebody?
Mr. Sachs. I don't think I would take the documents.
The Chairman. Do you have any doubt about it?
Mr. Sachs. Not in my mind.
The Chairman. Well, then, why don't you say so?
Mr. Cohn. Did Coleman know Barr or Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. Not that I know of.
Mr. Cohn. You never saw Coleman in the company of Barr or
Sarant?
Mr. Sachs. I don't believe I did.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know from conversations with Barr and
Sarant whether Coleman knew either one of them?
Mr. Sachs. I don't think they did know each other.
Mr. Cohn. Did you say you visited Coleman's apartment after
he moved out?
Mr. Sachs. I moved in.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Sachs. That was, I think, about September of 1943.
The Chairman. Who roomed with you?
Mr. Sachs. Myself and Coleman until the time he went into
the Marines and Jack Okun.
Mr. Cohn. Was Jack Okun Communistically inclined?
Mr. Sachs. [No answer.]
The Chairman. You didn't think Okun was Communistically
inclined?
Mr. Sachs. I don't think he was.
The Chairman. How long did you live with him?
Mr. Sachs. I lived with him until the time----
The Chairman. How long? A year, two years?
Mr. Sachs. I guess about six months.
The Chairman. How long did you live with Coleman?
Mr. Sachs. About two or three months.
The Chairman. I asked you before if you ever visited
Coleman. Why don't you come through and say, ``Yes, I visited
him. I lived with him.'' You don't tell me anything until I
drag it out of you.
Mr. Sachs. I am trying to answer specific questions. I am
willing to tell you even if I were not asked.
Mr. Cohn. After you lived with Sarant and Lewis, where did
you move to?
Mr. Sachs. Down to Baltimore.
Mr. Cohn. When you came back from Baltimore?
Mr. Sachs. I went to Sunberry, Pennsylvania.
The Chairman. Who did you live with at Baltimore?
Mr. Sachs. I don't remember living with anyone. I lived in
a rooming house.
The Chairman. Who lived in the rooming house?
Mr. Sachs. That is something I wouldn't know.
The Chairman. What was the address?
Mr. Sachs. I don't know.
The Chairman. Do you know who the landlady was?
Mr. Sachs. I can't remember.
The Chairman. What part of Baltimore? Do you know the
street?
Mr. Sachs. I can't remember that.
The Chairman. You don't know the street; don't know the
landlady; don't know what part of the city it was in; don't
know anyone in the rooming house?
Mr. Sachs. I can't remember those details.
The Chairman. Are you quite sure you never saw Julius
Rosenberg? I assume you have seen his picture in the paper?
Mr. Sachs. I can't state definitely I never saw him.
The Chairman. What is your impression?
Mr. Sachs. I don't think I ever saw him. I am not certain.
The Chairman. Who did you have your car pool with? You were
in a car pool, weren't you, at one time?
Mr. Sachs. No.
The Chairman. Going to Fort Hancock from Long Branch?
Mr. Sachs. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Who was in the car pool? Can you think of
anybody that was in the car pool?
Mr. Sachs. There was one fellow I can possibly recall.
The Chairman. What was his name?
Mr. Sachs. Gene Scheleman.
The Chairman. Where was he working?
Mr. Sachs. At Fort Hancock.
The Chairman. Whose car was it?
Mr. Sachs. I think it was his car.
The Chairman. Where were you living then?
Mr. Sachs. Long Branch.
The Chairman. Who did you live with in Long Branch?
Mr. Sachs. Well, I lived in Long Branch from the end of
July 1941.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you when. Who did you live with?
Mr. Sachs. In Long Branch?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sachs. From October of 1941 until I left Long Branch in
March of 1942, I lived with Sarant and Lewis.
The Chairman. Who else did you live with in Long Branch?
Mr. Sachs. Before I moved into the house, I roomed with a
private family for a while and then I roomed----
The Chairman. What was their names?
Mr. Sachs. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Do you know the address?
Mr. Sachs. Not off-hand.
The Chairman. How many people were in the family?
Mr. Sachs. I wouldn't recall that.
The Chairman. You have no idea how many?
Mr. Sachs. No.
The Chairman. Did you eat there?
Mr. Sachs. Where I roomed?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sachs. No.
The Chairman. Who else did you live with in Long Branch?
Mr. Sachs. Then I moved into a room with this fellow Lewis.
Mr. Cohn. Fred Lewis?
Mr. Sachs. Yes, for about a month and then into the house.
The Chairman. I am going to order you--we won't spend any
more time to get this information with pliers. I am going to
order you to prepare a list of places where you stayed, people
with whom you roomed and the first date you went to work with
the Signal Corps and the addresses. That will be given to the
committee and given under oath.
Mr. Sachs. Would you repeat that?
The Chairman. The places you stayed and any other
information which you think might be beneficial to the
committee, we will ask you to give it.
I may say for your benefit, and I think in fairness to you,
what the committee or just what the chairman thinks. I think
you have been completely evasive. We have testimony about you,
a great deal of it. I am not saying that testimony is true and
that you are lying. The point is that either you are not
telling us the truth or your memory is extremely bad or someone
else has perjured themselves. I don't think you have been frank
with the committee.
I asked you if you had ever visited Coleman and you said,
``Yes, I visited him once in a while'' but you don't bring out
the fact you lived with him until you are forced. At any
subsequent proceedings I doubt whether I am going to be
convinced too much by your truthfulness.
You had just better go home and give us a list of the
people you lived with and any other information that the
committee is looking for. We are investigating a very serious
matter. We are investigating espionage in one of the most
sensitive areas you will find, espionage that can well mean we
might lose the war, espionage affecting the lives of 160
million Americans. We are not playing. I may say this time you
are not through with the committee.
Consider yourself under subpoena and you will compile that
list. Your counsel can send that to us. Don't think we picked
you out of a hat. We have a good reason for your being here.
[Off-record discussion.]
TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA BERKE (ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, VICTOR
RABINOWITZ)
The Chairman. Will the witness stand and be sworn.
In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Berke. I do.
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was before
the committee some ten days or two weeks ago. At that time she
felt she had to have sufficient time to hire counsel and
prepare herself to testify. At her request, the matter was
adjourned.
Have the record show that the witness is here with Mr.
Rabinowitz.\9\
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\9\ In his autobiography, Unrepentant Leftist, A Lawyer's Memoir
(Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1996), 111-112, Victor
Rabinowitz recalled that he volunteered to serve as counsel for Sylvia
Berke when he met her at the courthouse and learned that she had no
attorney. ``She decided to refuse to answer the inevitable questions as
to her membership in the Party by pleading the Fifth Amendment. She
knew, and I knew, that she would lose her job with the board of
education as a result, since it was then the declared policy of the
board to dismiss anyone with 'took the Fifth Amendment' before a
congressional committee. There was not much I could do for her except
attend the hearing with her and provide whatever support I could.
However, I did promise to see if I could appeal to McCarthy's sympathy
to get her excused from testifying. . . .
``I waited in the hall to catch McCarthy as he came up in the
elevator, and a few minutes before ten o'clock he stepped out of an
elevator car, saw me, and with his usual geniality, which he exhibited
only in personal relations, threw his arms around me, shouting, `Hello,
Vic! What can I do for you?' There were perhaps fifty people in the
hall, and I did not relish the greeting. I told him I wanted to see him
about one of the witnesses, and he took me to a room adjacent to the
courtroom.
``I asked him whether he would excuse Sylvia from testifying. I
pointed out that it seemed unnecessarily cruel to this young woman to
deprive her of employment in a situation that made it possible for her
to work and raise a child, albeit on a very low salary. She was going
to take the Fifth Amendment anyhow, so the committee would get no
information from her.
``McCarthy's answer was typical: `It's all right with me, but you'd
better take it up with Roy.'
``Roy Cohn was standing ten feet away, and when I put the problem
to him, his answer was quick and peremptory. `Nonsense,' he said. `We
can't withdraw the subpoena. This woman possesses a great deal of
information concerning subversive activity at the Signal Corps. She's
one of the most important witnesses in this investigation.' I told him
that since she was going to plead the Fifth Amendment, the only result
of the investigation would be that she would lose her job. It made not
the slightest impression on Cohn.''
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Rabinowitz, let me ask you something. Is Mrs.
Pataki going to be here tomorrow morning?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I have called and left word for her to meet
me here at 10:00 a.m. I assume she will.
Mr. Cohn. I can suggest that an awful lot of trouble will
be saved if Mr. Pataki is produced.
Can we have your full name?
Mrs. Berke. Sylvia Berke.
Mr. Cohn. And where are you employed?
Mrs. Berke. Public School 50 in the Bronx.
Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
Mrs. Berke. I don't teach. I am the school clerk.
Mr. Cohn. What do you do as the school clerk?
Mrs. Berke. Take care of transfers to make sure that
addresses are right; attendance records of students.
Mr. Cohn. Now, were you ever employed by the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mrs. Berke. Either December 1942 or January 1943 to
September of 1943, I believe it was.
Mr. Cohn. Were you working out at Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Berke. You mean in the laboratories at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mrs. Berke. I am not sure. I know I was at the Eatontown
Laboratories. I may have been there for a while.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work were you doing?
Mrs. Berke. I was going to school three days a week and
three days a week I was testing meters for the most part.
Mr. Cohn. And in 1944 were you with the Federated
Television and Radio Group?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a radar tester there?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. What did you do there?
Mrs. Berke. Half the time I tested coils, tested direction
finders and half of the time I worked on seeing that blood was
donated, seeing that war bonds were sold for the firm.
The Chairman. The witness said she had not worked on radar?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Didn't you say you worked testing direction
finders?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Were direction finders part of the radar
equipment?
Mrs. Berke. To be quite honest, I don't know. We were given
a kind of ordnance test which we were put through.
The Chairman. When you applied for your position with the
Board of Education, you listed your occupation as a radar
tester?
Mrs. Berke. [No answer.]
The Chairman. We will have the application made a part of
the record at this point.
Now, did you have access to any classified material?
Mrs. Berke. What do you mean classified material?
The Chairman. Material not available for public inspection.
Could anybody walk in down at Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Berke. They couldn't walk in unless they were working
there.
The Chairman. Would you call the material public material?
Mrs. Berke. Anybody working there could have seen the
material I was working on.
The Chairman. What clearance did you have?
Mrs. Berke. I don't know what that means.
The Chairman. Were you cleared to see secret material,
confidential material, restricted material?
Mrs. Berke. I don't know. I don't think I worked on any
secretive. They never told me I was cleared.
The Chairman. Did you have a badge?
Mrs. Berke. I had a badge. Everybody had a badge with their
picture on it.
The Chairman. It allowed you to go any place in the plant?
Mrs. Berke. There was no block secretive while I was
working there--no place restricted.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mrs. Berke. I will have to cite the Fifth Amendment on that
and refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party today?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member last year?
Mrs. Berke. I have to cite the Fifth Amendment on that and
refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Communist party
yesterday?
Mrs. Berke. I have to cite the Fifth Amendment and refuse
to answer.
The Chairman. You say you are not a member today, but you
cite the Fifth Amendment as to yesterday?
Mrs. Berke. I cited it yesterday.
The Chairman. On the grounds that if you told the truth it
might incriminate you?
Mrs. Berke. That is what the Fifth Amendment is supposed to
mean.
Mr. Cohn. Did you drop out of the Communist party so you
could come here--upon instructions of Communist party
officials--so you could come here today and say you were not a
member?
Mrs. Berke. I will say ``no.''
Mr. Cohn. Who instructed you to drop out of the Communist
party?
Mrs. Berke. On the grounds of the Fifth Amendment----
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to tell us who ordered you to drop out
of the party?
Mrs. Berke. I am not saying anybody did. I am not saying I
ever was a member.
The Chairman. On the grounds of the Fifth Amendment you
refuse to say whether you have ever been a member of the
Communist party?
Mrs. Berke. I am saying I am not a member here and now.
The Chairman. If you were not a member yesterday, you
realize that would not incriminate you? You realize if you say
you were not a member of the Communist party yesterday----
Mrs. Berke. Then you are going to say were you a member the
day before yesterday.
The Chairman. You are not going to play with the Fifth
Amendment, madam.
Mrs. Berke. I don't intend to, sir.
The Chairman. I don't intend that you will.
Do you realize that if you were not a member of the
Communist party yesterday, then you cannot use that? You would
not incriminate yourself by answering the question. You merely
say no.
You merely say ``no'' and that answer could not incriminate
you. Do you realize that?
Mrs. Berke. I just stand on the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer that question.
Mrs. Berke. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer?
Mrs. Berke. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. On the grounds that your answer might tend to
incriminate you?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you drop out of the Communist party last
night?
Mrs. Berke. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did someone order you to drop out of the
Communist party?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that too.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist party when
you appeared before this committee a week or two ago?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. Did you believe in the Communist form of
government?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. Do you believe in it today?
Mrs. Berke. I will cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist when you worked for the
Signal Corps?
Mrs. Berke. I will cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. Did you engage in espionage when you worked
for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Berke. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever give any information to a member
of the Communist party in regard to your work at the Signal
Corps?
Mrs. Berke. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss your work in the Signal
Corps with a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Berke. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend Communist party meetings
while you were working in the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Berke. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend any Communist party meetings
in the year 1944?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
Mr. Cohn. Did you specifically attend a Communist party
meeting on September 7, 1944?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. You were working for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Berke. That was September 1943 that I left the Signal
Corps.
Mr. Cohn. When did you go to the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Berke. Either December 1942 or January 1943.
Mr. Cohn. And you left there in September of 1943.
The Chairman. Did you in August of 1943 attend a Communist
party meeting?
Mrs. Berke. When was that?
The Chairman. August of 1943?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. You are sure of that?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. That is to include July. July or August 1943?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Well, let's refresh your recollection. Did
you on July 27 and again on August 14, 1943, attend Communist
party meetings?
Mrs. Berke. [No answer.]
The Chairman. If it will help you, we can give you some of
the names of the people who were with you.
The question is: Did you attend a Communist party meeting
on July 27 and August 14, 1943?
Mrs. Berke. All I can say is to the best of my
recollection, I did not.
The Chairman. How about the balance of 1943, did you attend
any Communist party meetings?
Mrs. Berke. Again, to the best of my recollection, I did
not.
Mr. Cohn. How about 1944?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
Mr. Cohn. Do you go from the Signal Corps to the Federated
Television and Radio Company in Newark?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you go after you left the Federated
Television and Radio Company?
Mrs. Berke. I went to work for the Veterans Administration,
Insurance Division, in New York.
Mr. Cohn. When working for the Veterans Administration were
you a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Berke. I will cite the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you go after you left the Veterans
Administration?
Mrs. Berke. I went to work for the finance office, Local 65
of the Distributive Processive Workers of America.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Communist party when
working there?
M. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. When were you working there? What years?
Mrs. Berke. I think it was late 1946 and 1947, something
like that.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mrs. Berke. It might have been a year.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know David Livingston?
Mrs. Berke. He was president or vice president of the
union.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him?
Mrs. Berke. Certainly I knew him.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend a Communist meeting with him?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Jack Pailey?
Mrs. Berke. Yes, he was president of the union.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend a Communist meeting with him?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Nor Mrs. Rosenberg?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Perl?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. When you were working at the Signal Corps, did
you know a Mr. Coleman?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Alfred Sarant?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joel Barr?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Vivian Glassman?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Eleanor Glassman?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joseph Levitsky?
Mrs. Berke. No.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you go when you left Local 65?
Mrs. Berke. I worked for a very short time as a bookkeeper
with an installment house.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name of that?
Mrs. Berke. I can't remember the name, quite honestly. I
was pregnant at the time and it was just a part time job for
just two or three months.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you go after that?
Mrs. Berke. I had the baby and stayed home for a while and
then worked as a bookkeeper about two years ago in a wholesale
hardware firm downtown.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name of that.
Mrs. Berke. General Screw and Specialty Company.
Mr. Cohn. Now, where did you go after that? Board of
Education?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Who obtained your position with the Board of
Education for you?
Mrs. Berke. I took an examination.
Mr. Cohn. Who obtained your position for you with the Board
of Education?
Mrs. Berke. I took a Civil Service examination.
Mr. Cohn. Did you consult any member of the Communist party
when applying for your position with the Board of Education?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any member of the Communist party
teaching in the New York public schools today?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. How many pupils attend that school?
Mrs. Berke. One hundred and fifty.
The Chairman. Do you have access to all their records?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. What is your salary?
Mrs. Berke. I was just appointed.
The Chairman. When were you appointed?
Mrs. Berke. I started to work September 14th.
The Chairman. Of this year?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. What did you do directly prior to that?
Mrs. Berke. Nothing, the bookkeeping job.
The Chairman. Now, you were appointed on September 14th, is
that right?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. At the time of your appointment were you a
member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Now, we have it that on September 14th you
weren't a member of the Communist party; on November 3rd you
refused to say whether or not you were a member on November
3rd, but you aren't today.
Mrs. Berke. Can I change my answer with respect to November
3rd?
The Chairman. Yesterday?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. What do you want to change your answer to?
Mrs. Berke. ``No.''
The Chairman. How about during the year 1952?
Mrs. Berke. Now, I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Up until when do you stand on the Fifth
Amendment, to save time? Up until the time you got your job?
Mrs. Berke. No, that is not completely true.
The Chairman. You will not be allowed to change your answer
as to yesterday. Communists come in here and tell us they are
not Communists today to protect their jobs. If you were honest
when you told us that--if you were perjuring yourself, then
that must stand. If you were telling the truth, that must
stand. Tell me this: Where do you reside?
Mrs. Berke. 1545 Leland Avenue in the Bronx.
The Chairman. You are married?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. What does your husband do?
Mrs. Berke. He is an accountant.
The Chairman. With what firm?
Mrs. Berke. Well, I am separated from my husband. I have
been for three years.
The Chairman. Do you know what firm he is with?
Mrs. Berke. It is a firm called Active Machine Shops.
The Chairman. Is your husband a member of the Communist
party?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Now, when you filed your application, any
applications or any of the papers in connection with this
school, Board of Education, were you asked any question as to
whether or not you were or ever had been a member of the
Communist party?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. I see. In what manner did you answer that
question?
Mrs. Berke. I said ``no.''
The Chairman. Is that a truthful answer?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. You refuse to say whether or not that is a
truthful answer.
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you feel now that if you were to tell us
whether you were a Communist yesterday, that would tend to
incriminate you or not?
Mrs. Berke. I'd answer ``no'' with respect to yesterday.
The Chairman. Just a few minutes ago you refused to answer
whether you were a Communist yesterday. You told us that if you
were to answer that, it would tend to incriminate you. Do I
understand now you feel that would not tend to incriminate you
to answer?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. What caused you to change your mind in the
last twenty minutes?
Mrs. Berke. I don't think I have an answer for that.
The Chairman. Did you lawyer remind you that teachers who
refuse to tell you whether they are Communist or not get fired?
Mrs. Berke. No, my lawyer did not remind me of that.
The Chairman. You do not know what caused you to change
your mind?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. In September of last year were you a
Communist? Any time in September?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Sure.
What is your answer?
The question was: Were you a Communist in any of the month
of September last year?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Where did you go to college?
Mrs. Berke. I went to Hunter at night for a short while.
The Chairman. How long?
Mrs. Berke. For about a year.
The Chairman. Did you graduate from Hunter?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. At the time you entered Hunter how old were
you?
Mrs. Berke. About seventeen or eighteen.
The Chairman. When you entered Hunter were you a Communist?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you favor the Communist system?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you think we should have anyone in our
school system who favors the Communist system?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any Communist meetings at
any of the schools?
Mrs. Berke. I beg your pardon.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any Communist meetings
with any students?
Mrs. Berke. May I ask whether that question is directed to
students in the school I now work or at students at any time,
any place?
The Chairman. Any students, any school system. I would like
to know if you ever attended any Communist meetings with
students?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. When you say you cite the Fifth Amendment, do
you mean you are refusing to answer on the grounds your answer
might tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Berke. Right.
The Chairman. Do any of your brothers or sisters work for
the government?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Which ones?
Mrs. Berke. I have one brother.
The Chairman. What is his first name?
Mrs. Berke. William. The last name is Martasa.
The Chairman. Where does he work?
Mrs. Berke. He is in the army.
The Chairman. As military personnel?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. When did he go into the army?
Mrs. Berke. He has been in a long time.
The Chairman. About how long?
Mrs. Berke. I think since about 1944.
The Chairman. Was he drafted then?
Mrs. Berke. No, he enlisted.
The Chairman. What is his rank?
Mrs. Berke. He is a major.
The Chairman. In what branch of the army?
Mrs. Berke. I think he is in personnel. I think he is in
the Pentagon.
The Chairman. Is he a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Has he ever been?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. How do you know? Did you and he discuss it?
Mrs. Berke. We haven't discussed it. Perhaps I shouldn't
say it.
The Chairman. Has he ever asked you whether you were a
Communist?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Have you and he ever discussed Communism?
Mrs. Berke. Not to the best of my knowledge.
The Chairman. When did you see him last?
Mrs. Berke. I saw him for about two hours in the spring
sometime. He came back from overseas.
I hadn't seen him for years before that.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist at that time?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. And how long since you and he had lived in
the same home?
Mrs. Berke. I think he left home in about 1939.
The Chairman. And at that time there was only you and your
brother in the home--and your mother and father?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Was your mother or father a Communist at that
time?
Mrs. Berke. No, not to the best of my knowledge.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any Communist meetings
with either your mother or father?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend Communist meetings with
your brother?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. This is your only brother?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist when you and your
brother were living in the same home in 1939?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. Were you attending Communist party meetings
at the time you and your brother were living in the same home?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did your brother know you attended Communist
party meetings?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. Did you ever tell him you were attending
Communist party meetings?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Berke. Did you say had I ever told my brother I
attended Communist party meetings?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Did your brother know you were a Communist?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did your brother ever object to Communist
activities in your behalf?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did your brother, in conversation, approve of
your Communist activities?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. What kind of work does he do in the army?
Mrs. Berke. I think it is personnel work.
The Chairman. Can you be any more specific?
Mrs. Berke. We have never discussed it.
The Chairman. Do you write to him?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. You don't write to him at all?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Is he married?
Mrs. Berke. Yes.
The Chairman. Living in Washington?
Mrs. Berke. He is living in Virginia, I believe.
The Chairman. Did your mother or father ever work for the
government?
Mrs. Berke. No.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this one final question: In
view of the fact that the Communist half and our half is at
war, and a great number of our young men have died in the
shooting part of that fight, do you think any good American
should keep from the proper government officials his or her
knowledge of the members of the Communist conspiracy?
Mrs. Berke. I cite the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. I'd like to see some of these Fifth Amendment
cases in Russia and see them cite the Fifth Amendment.
You will be released for tonight. Consider yourself under
subpoena and you will be called, most likely, in Washington. In
the meantime, if you decide to come in and give the committee
what you have about the Communist conspiracy, we will be glad
to receive it.
TESTIMONY OF BENJAMIN WOLMAN (RESUMED)
The Chairman. You are Benjamin Wolman?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
The Chairman. You have appeared before this committee
before?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mr. Wolman. I am assistant principal, Public School 3,
Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is your wife a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Wolman. I have a statement, Senator----
The Chairman. Will you submit it to us?
Mr. Wolman. Will it be put in the record?
[The witness handed a paper to the chairman, which the
chairman read.]
[I wish to object to further examination by this Committee
on the following grounds:
1. Further examination of me along the lines indicated by
my first examination is not within the jurisdiction of this
committee. The committee's jurisdiction is limited to the
efficiency and economy of Government operations. An
investigation into matters such as subversive activities,
espionage and related subjects is specifically reserved to
other committees of the Senate, and particularly the Committee
on the Judiciary. I have never been a civilian employee of the
United States; my only connection with either the Signal Corps
or with Fort Monmouth was as a member of the Army during the
war. Such connection is now almost ten years old and cannot
have any possible current bearing on the efficiency and economy
of government operations.
2. Even if it be assumed that this committee does have the
right to examine into matters such as subversive activities in
government departments, I have already testified before the
committee that I engaged in no such activities during my
service in the Army and that I have had no connection at all
with the Signal Corps or with Fort Monmouth since that time.
3. Most of the questions asked by the committee at my last
examination cannot possibly have any relevance to any
legislative inquiry, whatever the jurisdiction of this
committee might be. Questions as to whether prior to my
marriage I suspected that my wife might be sympathetic to
communism relates only to my state of mind prior to 1946, and
could not possibly be relevant to a legislative investigation.
Moreover, the tenor of the questions asked and the manner in
which the investigation was conducted was more akin to that of
a grand jury investigation than that of a legislative inquiry
and was, in the opinion of counsel, highly improper.
4. I have already testified at length before this committee
and my testimony has established my lack of familiarity with
any of the subjects into which, according to the press, the
committee is now investigating. Any further examination on the
subjects will therefore be a repetition of what I have already
been asked and will result in unnecessary harassment and
annoyance of me.
5. Not only is this questioning a matter of personal
inconvenience and expense, but it is also an interference with
the administration of the school where I am employed in a
position for which no substitute is available. I have come to
school ill, as have some of our teachers, because I knew that
my absence would work a hardship on the rest of the staff and
the 600 children in the building of which I am in charge. I
have been excused from jury duty because of the nature of my
assignment and duties.]
The Chairman. Lots of boys in Korea were inconvenienced
very badly by Communists and espionage agents.
Mr. Wolman. Will that be put in the record?
The Chairman. That will be put in the record.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I don't know whether or not you answered the
question as to whether or not your wife is a member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Wolman. Except to conversation of my wife, which I
plead the privilege, the answer is ``no.''
Mr. Cohn. You mean you refuse to tell us whether you
learned she was a Communist in conversation with her claiming
the privilege of the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What was your wife doing when you married her?
Mr. Wolman. Teaching, probably. I am trying to think back
when she went to Thomas Jefferson High School.
Mr. Cohn. Maybe I can refresh your recollection, Mr.
Wolman. As a matter of fact, your wife was teaching at a
Communist training school, wasn't she?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you wife ever teach at the Jefferson School
of Social Science?
Mr. Wolman. I believe she has taught Russian there.
Mr. Cohn. Don't you know that is a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. I think that was before my marriage.
Mr. Cohn. I don't care when it was.
All right. Don't you know that is a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is this the first time you have heard that the
Jefferson School is a Communist School?
Mr. Wolman. I have seen accusations in the newspapers to
that effect.
Mr. Cohn. What do you think of those accusations?
Mr. Wolman. I have no way of knowing how true the
accusations might be.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard anybody deny that it was a
Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. No, I don't recall seeing any such denial.
The Chairman. When did you get married?
Mr. Wolman. 1946.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask your wife if that was a
Communist school before you married her?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You didn't?
Mr. Wolman. I don't recall that the subject ever came up.
The Chairman. But you knew that she had been teaching at a
school that was alleged to be a Communist school. Is that
right?
Mr. Wolman. Let's say has been alleged.
The Chairman. You knew at that time it had been named as a
Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. This would have to be before 1946. I don't know
whether it was alleged before that time.
The Chairman. You knew your wife was teaching at this
school which was publicly named as a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. I don't know that it was publicly alleged. I
don't know that.
The Chairman. How long have you been teaching?
Mr. Wolman. Since I got out of the army in 1945.
The Chairman. You say you never had any knowledge that the
Jefferson School was a well-known Communist training school?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
The Chairman. When did you first learn it?
Mr. Wolman. When did I first learn what?
The Chairman. That it was a well-known Communist training
school?
Mr. Wolman. I don't know that it is well-known.
The Chairman. Did you ever teach social studies in New
York?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What did you teach?
Mr. Wolman. American history.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever teach anything about communism?
Mr. Wolman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the Jefferson School
is not a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. I have no opinion on that.
The Chairman. None whatsoever?
Mr. Wolman. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever talked to your wife about
whether it is a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. Husband and wife privilege.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer whether you talked to
her about whether it was a Communist School?
Mr. Wolman. Husband and wife privilege.
The Chairman. Were you interested in knowing whether your
wife had been teaching at a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. The question never came up.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
Were you interested in knowing whether your wife ever
taught at a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. The answer has to be ``no'' because the
question didn't come up.
The Chairman. You were not interested in knowing whether
she had taught at a Communist school?
Mr. Wolman. It didn't come up so the answer would have to
be ``no.''
The Chairman. I am not asking you whether the question came
up. I asked you whether when getting married you were
interested in whether or not your wife had taught at a
Communist school, or was then teaching at a Communist school?
Were you interested in knowing that?
Mr. Wolman. The question never came up.
The Chairman. You are going to answer that. I am asking you
whether you were interested----
Mr. Wolman. I will have to say ``no.'' The question never
came up.
The Chairman. Is ``no'' the truthful answer?
Mr. Wolman. No is a truthful answer.
The Chairman. Were you interested in whether or not your
wife was a Communist when you married her? Did you have any
interest in that?
Mr. Wolman. I would say ``no.'' That is ridiculous. The
question never arose. How could I show interest in it.
The Chairman. Were you interested in knowing whether your
wife was a Communist, a woman who was then teaching at a
Communist school? You are ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Wolman. Which one do you want me to answer--the one
whether I was interested?
The Chairman. The question I asked you.
Mr. Wolman. Answer now?
The Chairman. Yes. This is a very good time.
Mr. Wolman. First of all, I said I didn't know it was a
Communist school. I said the question never arose, and,
therefore, the answer would be ``no.''
Mr. Cohn. What was your wife doing when you married her?
Was she teaching?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Was she teaching at the Jefferson School?
Mr. Wolman. Teaching in the public school system, I think,
at that time.
Mr. Cohn. Public school system?
Mr. Wolman. Public high school.
Mr. Cohn. I would like to enter in the record the catalogue
of the Jefferson School for 1945 and 1946, reflecting the name
of Diana Molover as instructress in Soviet literature for the
fall of 1946 and for the February to April term of 1945.
Now, did you know that your wife had worked as head of the
export department of the Four Continent Book Shop?
Mr. Wolman. I knew she worked at the Four Continent Book
Shop.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that bookshop was completely owned
and controlled by the Communist party?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When did you hear that for the first time?
Mr. Wolman. A couple of weeks ago when here.
Mr. Cohn. That is the first inkling you had of that?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of David Flacz?
Mr. Wolman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. You don't have any idea?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You know you are under oath?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend a Communist meeting in his
home at 144 Carrol Street, Brooklyn?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a woman by the name of Florence
Jacobs, known as Frommie Jacobs?
Mr. Wolman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is she a Communist?
Mr. Wolman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend a meeting at her home at 729
East Fourth Street, Brooklyn?
Mr. Wolman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Leon Portnoud?
Mr. Wolman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is he a Communist?
Mr. Wolman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever meet a Communist, as far as you
know, in your life?
Mr. Wolman. Not personally. I have known people who have
names, I would say, were Communist, but not that I know
personally.
To my knowledge, the answer to that question, whatever they
were, was ``no.''
The Chairman. Are you including your wife in that answer or
not including her?
Mr. Wolman. As to my knowledge, the answer has to be ``no''
to these last couple of questions. As for my wife, I use the
husband and wife privilege.
The Chairman. You use the privilege?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe that the Communist form of
government is superior to ours?
The Chairman. Is that a tough question for an assistant
principal of a public school in New York?
Mr. Wolman. It is not a question of a tough question. I
would say ``no.''
The Chairman. Did you have difficulty in arriving at that?
Mr. Wolman. The reason is that is a system established in
Russia and may not fit American conditions, American history,
American background development of the American people, or for
that matter, the English people.
The Chairman. You say it may not. Do you think it might
fit?
Mr. Wolman. Well, I can't prophesy.
The Chairman. What do you think? What is your personal
opinion?
Mr. Wolman. My personal opinion in terms of the philosophy
of American historical development, it does not seem likely;
certainly in any foreseeable future that such a situation could
be established.
The Chairman. I am not asking you if they will succeed. I
am not talking about your predictions but your wishes, what you
would like to see happen. Is that right, Mr. Cohn?
Mr. Cohn. That is exactly right.
The Chairman. In other words, whether you believe it or
not, whether you believe in the likelihood of the Communist
form of government, we want to know whether you believe in the
desirability of the Communist form of government?
Mr. Wolman. The answer is ``no.''
The Chairman. You are against the Communist form of
government?
Mr. Wolman. Certainly for the United States.
The Chairman. How about Russia?
Mr. Wolman. That is for them to decide.
The Chairman. Do you think that is a pretty good system for
them?
Mr. Wolman. I don't know.
The Chairman. With respect to what we are talking about
right now, do you think the Communist system is a good system
for any country to have?
Mr. Wolman. Maybe I ought to make it straight. It is not
the job of a teacher to present his opinion pro or con on any
of those major subjects. It is the job of the teacher to get
the kids to arrive at a conclusion.
The Chairman. We are interested in knowing whether a
teacher, teaching communism, feels that is a desirable form of
government. Do you think that is a good system of government
for any country, for Russia, or any country other than the
United States, or don't you know?
Mr. Wolman. I frankly wouldn't know. I wouldn't take enough
interest in it to decide for the Russian people. May I point
out, in any history course the whole question would be a small
part of the whole discussion. If we spent a period or two
periods of forty minutes each on that, it would be a lot.
The Chairman. I am going to ask you the question again. We
had your wife here and she refused to tell us whether or not
she was a Communist on the grounds that it would incriminate
her. You refused to tell us whether she is a Communist. You are
teaching school. Do you think the Communist system would be a
good system for China, we will say?
Mr. Wolman. That is some doubt I had. I would say the same
opinion as far as Russia.
The Chairman. In other words, you don't know?
Mr. Wolman. I think it is a decision for them to make.
The Chairman. I know it is a decision they should make. The
question is: Do you think that is a good system of government
for them? You are a teacher, Mr. Wolman.
Mr. Wolman. I don't know the background that led to the
Russian Communist system so well.
The Chairman. I am asking you a simple question. Do you
think the Communist system would be good for Red China, good
for China?
Mr. Wolman. I have no opinion on that.
The Chairman. Do you think it would be good for the world
if communism were to engulf all of Asia or would that be bad
for the world?
Mr. Wolman. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Do you have any opinion on that? Would it be
bad if all of Asia became Communis?.
Mr. Wolman. [No answer.]
The Chairman. The question is: Do you think it would be
good or bad if all of Asia became Communist?
Mr. Wolman. I would say, ``no,'' sir.
The Chairman. Do you mean it would be good or bad?
Mr. Wolman. I am sorry. I think it would be bad.
The Chairman. How about England--if England and France were
to be Communist dominated, do you think that would be bad for
the world?
Mr. Wolman. I think you are asking me to prophesy again.
The Chairman. You have some difficulty with that question?
Mr. Wolman. Yes, because it has to assume once it takes
place what will be the repercussions in France, England, or
whatever.
The Chairman. In other words, you can't decide whether it
would be good or bad if France and England were Communist
dominated?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir. I have no opinion on it.
The Chairman. Is that what you tell your students if they
ask you the question?
Mr. Wolman. Again, if I had the time I would explain the
nature of a class discussion.
The Chairman. If one of your students comes up to you after
class and says, ``I have been hearing about this communism.
Some people think it is a world conspiracy; some people think
it is a vicious thing, enslaves people. Do you think it would
be good or bad, teacher, if the Communists were to dominate
England and France?'' what would your answer be?
Mr. Wolman. I would ask the kid to decide for himself on
the event, just as if he had placed it another way--not on that
topic but many other topics.
The Chairman. If a student came up to you and said, ``Some
people think it is wrong to murder other people. What do you
think, teacher? Is it right or wrong.'' Would you say decide
for yourself or would you say it is wrong?
Mr. Wolman. Murder is not in political development. I think
I would have to find out what was wrong with the kid on a
question of murder.
The Chairman. You mean you would not answer the question?
Mr. Wolman. I think I would certainly want to know what led
to the question on the part of the kid.
The Chairman. What would your answer be? Would you say it
was wrong or would you say it was all right?
Mr. Wolman. My first thought would be that the kid was
pulling my leg. Then after I decided the kid was serious, I
would try to find out why the question arose. I think that
would be part of my job.
The Chairman. Would you answer whether it would be right or
wrong?
Mr. Wolman. I would tell him I can think of no
circumstances where murder is correct.
The Chairman. What if he asked you about stealing? ``Do you
think it is wrong to steal?'' Would you tell him it is wrong to
steal or would you tell him to decide for himself?
Mr. Wolman. No, I would say in the case of stealing, that
is wrong. That is illegal.
Mr. Cohn. Who started the Korean War?
Mr. Wolman. There are various opinions.
Mr. Cohn. What is your opinion?
Mr. Wolman. I don't know that all the evidence is in.
Mr. Cohn. On the basis of all the evidence now, who do you
think started it?
Mr. Wolman. I don't think I can come to a decision on the
basis of the evidence now.
Mr. Cohn. Now, how many students attend this school of
which you are principal?
Mr. Wolman. About six hundred.
Mr. Cohn. You are assistant principal?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What are your duties as assistant principal?
Mr. Wolman. Setting up programs, assigning duties, pupil
discipline.
Mr. Cohn. Do you assign any teachers courses?
Mr. Wolman. Do I assign teachers any courses? Oh, no. They
are pretty well fixed by the city.
Mr. Cohn. Do you still do any teaching yourself?
Mr. Wolman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When was the last time you taught?
Mr. Wolman. About a year ago or so.
Mr. Cohn. Then you became assistant principal?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What did you teach before that--social studies?
Mr. Wolman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Would you assign any duties from books during the
course?
Mr. Wolman. Textbooks or reference material?
Mr. Cohn. That is other books?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you assign any reference material in regard
to communism?
Mr. Wolman. Except what appeared in the textbooks, once.
M. Cohn. What textbook did you use?
Mr. Wolman. The last one used was Graphic World History, I
think was the title of it. The authors, I don't remember. Oh,
yes. Evans and Sankowsky.\10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\10\ Jesse Campbell Evans and Suzanne Harris Sankowsky, Graphic
World History (Boston: D.C. Heath & Company, 1945).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Cohn. How do you spell that name?
Mr. Wolman. Probably S-a-n-k-o-w-s-k-i or y. One of them.
The Chairman. Do you think that members of the Communist
party should be allowed to teach in the public school system?
Mr. Wolman. I think if they do no wrong in the classroom or
anything improper, I think they should.
The Chairman. What if they do wrong outside the classroom?
Mr. Wolman. There are certain rules in our Board of
Education.
The Chairman. What if they attend Communist party meetings
outside the classroom?
Mr. Wolman. At the present time you know what the Board of
Education policy is. I think the Board of Education is wrong. I
can't agree with them.
The Chairman. You think Communists who engage in Communist
activities outside the classroom should be allowed to teach?
Mr. Wolman. Yes, assuming there is no effort made to bring
to the children their ideas on this.
The Chairman. All right. Now, what if they asked the
children outside the classroom to attend Communist meetings. Do
you think that should bar them?
Mr. Wolman. I have never heard of such an instance. It is
the first time I have heard of such a question.
The Chairman. Then you have heard it for the first time, so
answer it for the first time?
Mr. Wolman. Perhaps that is improper because they are
presumably using their influence they may have gotten with the
children in a non-school situation.
The Chairman. In other words, you think they should be
fired?
Mr. Wolman. Let's say tried.
The Chairman. Well, tried and they find they do; that they
have invited their students to attend Communist meetings,
invited them outside the classroom and attended outside the
classroom?
Mr. Wolman. I think that would be using influence gained in
the classroom to carry over to a non-school situation.
The Chairman. Do you think they should be fired?
Mr. Wolman. They should be tried.
The Chairman. What happens if they found they did?
Mr. Wolman. The point is, the decision is to be made by the
trial examiner, superintendent.
The Chairman. Let's say you are the trial examiner. Do you
think they should be fired if that is the offense?
Mr. Wolman. Yes.
The Chairman. Have the record show the witness conferred
with counsel at length and hesitated and was instructed by
counsel to say ``yes.''
Mr. Wolman. I asked counsel if I had to answer that
question and he said ``yes go ahead,'' then I gave the answer.
The Chairman. Just so the record is clear, let the record
show I am sitting about ten feet from the witness and that I
heard him say ``yes,'' and counsel nodded his head. He then
turned to me and said, ``yes.''
If that is incorrect you go ahead and correct it.
Mr. Rabinowitz. May I state I am sitting twelve inches away
from the witness and he turned to me and said, ``Do I have to
answer that question?'' And I answered, ``I don't think you
have to, but go ahead and answer it anyhow.''
The Chairman. Do you think someone who is before a school
board or congressional committee and says, ``I will not tell
you whether I attended Communist meetings with my students''
should be discharged; says ``I will not tell you because if I
tell you the truth, the answer will tend to incriminate me.''
Mr. Rabinowitz. Is the question here whether a teacher who
pleads the Fifth Amendment privilege should be fired?
The Chairman. If you don't understand the question, I will
repeat it.
Do you think that a teacher who goes before the school
board in a trial or before this committee or any other
congressional committee and is asked whether or not he or she
has attended Communist, meetings with his or her students and
refuses to answer and gives as a reason that the answer might
tend to incriminate him or her, do you think such a person
should be retained in the school system?
Mr. Wolman. I think an individual has a right to use the
Fifth Amendment for such a question.
The Chairman. That wasn't the question. I know they have
the right. My question was whether or not----
Mr. Wolman. My answer is that a person who uses the Fifth
Amendment should not be fired on those grounds at all. There
may be other things.
The Chairman. You think the school board is wrong in
deciding that teachers who refuse to state whether they are
Communist or not, using the Fifth Amendment, should be fired?
Mr. Wolman. I disagree with the board on that. The matter
is on appeal.
The Chairman. In other words, you think teachers should be
retained----
Mr. Wolman. Otherwise, the privilege would have no meaning.
Mr. Cohn. Do you regard communism as a world conspiracy?
Mr. Wolman. I have heard the expression, if that is what
you mean.
Mr. Cohn. What is your opinion?
Mr. Wolman. I have no opinion on that, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Buckley, will you transmit this testimony
to the Board of Education. I assume with this testimony they
will discharge this man.
Mr. Counsel, do you want to go over the testimony to check
it for any typographical errors before it is transmitted to the
Board of Education, so there will be no question about the
accuracy of the report.
I may say, your wife's testimony is being transmitted to
the Board of Education also. I assume she will be discharged
also.
If counsel would care to, we will be glad to have him go
over that testimony.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I would also like to look at the first
testimony of this witness. I would like to examine that.
When will the second transcript be ready?
The Chairman. I will say the middle of next week.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I can get the first volume in the meantime.
The Chairman. You can get that from somebody in 1402, Mr.
Buckley.
Mr. Rabinowitz. Thank you.
The Chairman. I am sorry we had to work you this late.
Mr. Rabinowitz. Not as sorry as I am.
[Whereupon, the hearing adjourned at 10:00 p.m.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Outlining the anticipated public hearings
for the Army Signal Corps investigation, subcommittee counsel
Roy Cohn informed the army's counsel, John Adams, of plans to
call as a witness Harry Hyman. Although not an employee at Fort
Monmouth, Hyman had made numerous telephone calls to the
installation during the investigation. Hyman, who worked at the
Federal Telecommunications Laboratory in Nutley, New Jersey,
was president of the local union of the Federation of
Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians, which aimed
to organize shop workers and engineers in defense industries.
The Congress of Industrial Organizations had expelled the union
for being Communist dominated. Citing records of these
telephone calls, Senator McCarthy, in a public hearing on
November 25, 1953, said that Hyman ``would appear to be one of
the most active Communist espionage agents that we have run
down to date.''
Peter A. Gragis (1913-2001) testified at a public hearing
on March 5, 1954 that he had been a member of the Communist
party while working for Federal Telecommunications Laboratories
from 1945 until his suspension in 1950. Gragis identified Hyman
as an active member of a small Communist cell that also
included Ernest Pataki, Frank McGee, Ruth Levine, John
Saunders, Leo Kantrowitz, Harriman Dash, and Albert Shadowitz.
In public testimony on March 11, 1954, Harriman Dash and John
Saunders confirmed their past Communist party membership, but
described their mission as union building rather than espionage
or sabotage.
In a letter to Attorney General Herbert Brownell on
December 24, 1953, Senator McCarthy requesting that a grand
jury investigate Hyman's alleged espionage activities. In the
Senate on February 2, 1954, he pledged that ``These `Fifth
Amendment' agents, espionage agents like Hyman, will go to jail
and they will be removed from circulation by way of a contempt
proceeding and under the Smith Act.'' The Justice Department,
however, did not pursue the case.
Harry Hyman testified publicly on November 25 and December
17; and Henry Shoiket on December 10, 1953. Vivian Glassman
Pataki, Gunnar Boye (1903-1970), Alexander Hindin (1909-1978),
Samuel Paul Gisser (1912-1999), Stanley Berinsky (1923-1985),
and Ralph Schutz did not testify in public session.]
----------
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 5, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met (pursuant to Senate Resolution 40,
agreed to January 30, 1953) at 11:00 a.m., in room 36, Federal
Building, New York, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; G. David Schine, chief consultant; George
Anastos, assistant counsel; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant
counsel.
TESTIMONY OF HARRY HYMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, LEONARD
BOUDIN)
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand?
In the matter now in hearing, do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Hyman. I do.
Mr. Boudin. Could I ask a question for the record?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Boudin. The nature of the inquiry and, second, the
specific jurisdiction of the committee.
The Chairman. The nature of the inquiry has to do with
Communist influence, Communist infiltration of government
agencies or any agency in which the U.S. government or any
agency which is being supported in any way by government funds.
The jurisdiction of the committee extends over that wide area.
Mr. Hyman will be questioned about any knowledge he has
which may be of benefit to the committee, and any activities of
his own which may have had any affect upon any agency of the
government, particularly in the Signal Corps.
Mr. Boudin. What I had really meant is there a specific
resolution, rule or statute which gives the committee
jurisdiction?
The Chairman. I wouldn't go into a long legal discussion
with you. I think that would be up to you. You have been before
the committee before. I am not going to take the time to
explain the Reorganization Act, how the committee was set up. I
have seven witnesses waiting. I think in your experience before
this committee you have got a fairly good knowledge of the
background.
Mr. Boudin. I just want to make it clear, senator, before
proceeding that we are reserving our rights to object to
jurisdiction.
The witness is here involuntarily, the witness having been
subpoenaed by the subcommittee.
The Chairman. Your name is Harry Hyman?
Mr. Hyman. Yes.
The Chairman. What is your address?
Mr. Hyman. 719 East Ninth Street, New York City.
The Chairman. Will the reporter note he is accompanied by
counsel, Mr. Leonard Boudin.
Where are you working now, Mr. Hyman?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional protection of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You decline to tell where you are working
now?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional provision of the Fifth
Amendment.
The Chairman. In your work are you engaged in any illegal
activities of any kind?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional protection of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. When did you work for the U.S. Signal Corps?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional protection of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Did you ever work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional protection of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party
today?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional protection of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. All of your refusals so far are based upon
the Fifth Amendment, the provision that if you tell the truth,
your testimony might incriminate you.
Mr. Hyman. The provision--based on the privilege that a
witness shall not bear witness against himself.
The Chairman. Do you feel that to answer those questions it
might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional protection of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You refuse to tell me whether or not you
think your answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the same reason.
The Chairman. Then you are ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Hyman. I don't understand.
The Chairman. Well, we will start over, so there will be no
question.
Did you work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional privilege of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer might tend to
incriminate you?
Mr. Hyman. Under the constitutional privilege of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Then you are ordered to tell us whether or
not you worked for the Signal Corps.
So you can't plead ignorance at any future legal
proceedings, let's have it very clear you were asked a question
about your employment and you refused to answer. I asked you
whether you thought your answer might tend to incriminate you
and you refused to tell me whether you thought it might
incriminate you. Therefore, you are not entitled to any
privilege under the Fifth Amendment. Therefore, you are ordered
to answer the question of whether or not you worked for the
Signal Corps.
Mr. Boudin. Let the record be clear that I have informed
the witness he need not adopt the rules of the committee.
The Chairman. I do not want to hear from counsel.
[Witness consulted with counsel.]
Mr. Boudin. I think the witness can answer now.
The Chairman. You have been ordered to.
Mr. Hyman. I would like to state when I use the
constitutional privilege of the Fifth Amendment, I refer to the
privilege which affords me the right not to testify against
myself, self-incrimination.
The Chairman. You can advise your client as much as you
want to. I have asked you a very simple question. That is,
whether or not you feel your answer might tend to incriminate
you. Unless I get an answer to that, I will have to order you
to answer the question.
I must determine, as the chairman, whether you are
rightfully taking the privilege or this is a frivolous abuse of
the privilege. I can't determine that until you answer this
simple question.
Do I understand now you are refusing to tell me whether or
not you think your answer to the question, as to your
government employment in the Signal Corps might tend to
incriminate you? You are refusing to answer that?
Mr. Hyman. If you insist I answer it, I will answer the
question.
The Chairman. I don't insist but you cannot have the Fifth
Amendment privilege until you do.
You are not being ordered to answer that question about
self-incrimination. You understand that, don't you?
Mr. Hyman. I am not sure I do.
The Chairman. I asked the question about your employment in
the Signal Corps. You refused to answer that. Then the next
question, I asked you if you felt an answer to that question
would tend to incriminate you. You can either answer that or
not. I am not ordering you to answer that question. Unless you
tell me whether or not the question about your employment would
tend to incriminate you, I will have to order you to answer the
question about your employment.
Mr. Hyman. I am asserting the privilege--I am doing it on
the basis that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. How old are you?
Mr. Hyman. Thirty-one.
The Chairman. And your address is what?
Mr. Hyman. 719 East Ninth Street, New York City.
The Chairman. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Hyman. New York.
The Chairman. What college?
Mr. Hyman. City College, New York.
The Chairman. And when did you graduate from City College?
Mr. Hyman. I did not.
The Chairman. How many years did you attend City College?
Mr. Hyman. It was a period of months, perhaps three months,
two months.
The Chairman. Do you remember when you left there? What
year?
Mr. Hyman. 1939.
The Chairman. What was the occasion of your leaving?
Mr. Hyman. Pardon me.
The Chairman. What was the occasion of your leaving?
Mr. Hyman. It was financial problems.
The Chairman. You are thirty-one now, and you left college
when you were about how old?
Mr. Hyman. Eighteen or nineteen.
The Chairman. You were only about seventeen years old,
right?
Mr. Hyman. I was sixteen.
The Chairman. Where did you go to high school?
Mr. Hyman. Seward Park High School.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist party when
you entered college?
Mr. Hyman. Under the Constitutional privilege of the Fifth
Amendment, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. We are going through it again. Is it correct
that when you invoke the Fifth Amendment, you are invoking it
because you feel your answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Hyman. That is correct.
The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage while you were
working at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment
The Chairman. Have you engaged in espionage in the past
several weeks?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you steal radar secrets from the Signal
Corps Laboratory and turn them over to Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you acquainted with members of the
Julius Rosenberg spy ring?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you a part of that ring?
Mr. Hyman. What was that?
The Chairman. Were you a part of that spy ring?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you know a Mr. Coleman at the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Hyman. What is the name?
The Chairman. Mr. Coleman, if you remember.
Mr. Hyman. May I ask you to identify him.
The Chairman. Mr. Coleman was a man working in the Signal
Corps Laboratory at the time you worked there. His first name,
I believe, is Aaron.
Mr. Hyman. You say Signal Corps Laboratories?
The Chairman. Fort Monmouth Signal Laboratory and Evans
Laboratory?
Mr Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Who was your immediate superior?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. I don't know if you gentlemen have any
questions to ask this witness. He has taken the Fifth Amendment
on everything as to his employment, whether he is a Communist
party member, as to whether he was committing espionage when
working for the Signal Corps Laboratory, as to whether he was
part of the Rosenberg spy ring, as to whether he stole radar
secrets.
In the questioning he has answered so far his age, address,
schooling, where he went to school, City College for several
months, high school.
Mr. Carr. Do you know a man named Howard Stretch Johnson?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Boudin. Let it be indicated who is asking these
questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Carr.
Mr. Carr. You answered that Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Hyman. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Have you been associated with Howard Stretch
Johnson in the Communist party?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. Have you been functioning in the Communist party
underground as of the last month?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. When was the last time you were at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. When was the last time you telephonically
communicated with anybody at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Hyman, where do you work now?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. Now, do you know a man by the name of Harold
Cole?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. Is he a business associate of yours?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. Is it true that you have affiliated yourself with
the American Labor party?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. Have you within the last six months made any
trips down to Fort Monmouth for the purpose of picking up
classified material from people working there?
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Carr. Have you had meetings of the Communist
underground in your home, attended by Stretch Johnson,
including other people?
Mr. Boudin. Those questions have been covered.
The Chairman. We will not hear from counsel.
Mr. Hyman. Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You will remain here until we call you back,
Mr. Hyman.
Mr. Boudin. Will you call me if you need him today. He came
down in response to a telegram, even though he wasn't
subpoenaed.
The Chairman. How much notice?
Mr. Boudin. We will accommodate you if given adequate
notice.
The Chairman. I want to know if you want a half hour, an
hour?
Mr. Boudin. I think after two hours.
The Chairman. That won't be sufficient.
Mr. Boudin. The witness won't be able to be accompanied by
counsel. I have to be at my office. I'm sure Mr. Cohn can give
me two hours notice.
Mr. Cohn. I want the witness to remain here.
The Chairman. How long would it take you to get down here?
Mr. Boudin. Give us an hours notice and I will come down
here with the witness.
Mr. Hyman. Does that mean I have to stay in the building?
The Chairman. As long as your lawyer says he will produce
you in one hours notice, go wherever he lets you go.
Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF VIVIAN GLASSMAN PATAKI (ACCOMPANIED BY HER
COUNSEL, VICTOR RABINOWITZ)
Mr. Rabinowitz. Senator, I have a statement to make on Mr.
Pataki, if you'd like to have it.
I spoke to Mr. Pataki last night and to Mrs. Pataki this
morning. I am advised that for the last seven months certainly,
Mr. Pataki has been carrying on a perfectly normal existence.
He comes home every night and no one has ever made an effort to
serve him with a subpoena. No one has called up. No one has
indicated they wanted to serve process.
I think Mr. Cohn said Mr. Pataki was attempting to evade
service and I feel that is merely an attempt to shift the
incompetence of the one serving process on Mr. Pataki. As far
as availability for service, if process server comes he will
accept service. He is not going to come down without service of
a subpoena.
Mr. Cohn. Did you notify him that he was to appear this
morning?
Mr. Rabinowitz. No, I did not.
Mr. Cohn. You were told last night to notify him.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I know. I am not a messenger for the
committee.
Mr. Cohn. You did not notify him to appear this morning?
Mr. Rabinowitz. He told Mrs. Pataki, and I have no reason
to doubt that it is true, that he had no desire to evade
service. He works tonight and will be home about----
Mr. Cohn. Is he at home?
Mr. Rabinowitz. As to that, you had better ask Mrs. Pataki.
Mr. Cohn. Is he at home now?
Mrs. Pataki. I really wouldn't know.
The Chairman. Counsel will be held in contempt for failing
to notify Mr. Pataki to be here this morning.
Mr. Rabinowitz. Well, I'd like to see----
The Chairman. He was told yesterday to tell Mr. Pataki to
be here this morning. Counsel says he talked to Mr. Pataki.
Mr. Rabinowitz. And does the senator care to cite the
provision of law under which he can cite me because I failed to
act as a process server for the committee, if there is such a
provision?
Mr. Cohn. I think the issue goes a lot deeper than that.
You appeared before this committee yesterday without Mrs.
Pataki. You were directed to have her here yesterday. I think
the record on the whole thing, as far as your conduct----
The Chairman. Mrs. Pataki, where is he right now? Where
does he work?
Mrs. Pataki. Cooper Union.
The Chairman. Does he teach there?
Mrs. Pataki. Yes, he does.
The Chairman. Is he there all day long?
Mrs. Pataki. He has a varied schedule. He goes in at
different hours each day and so I can't say where he is.
The Chairman. Is he teaching there today sometime?
Mrs. Pataki. I believe so, yes.
The Chairman. Morning or afternoon?
Mrs. Pataki. I believe sometime this afternoon.
The Chairman. I understood counsel to say he goes to work
at 11: 00?
Mrs. Pataki. He won't be home tonight until about 11:30.
That I know.
The Chairman. Is he teaching?
Mrs. Pataki. No. He goes to school.
The Chairman. Where does he go to school?
Mrs. Pataki. City College.
The Chairman. What kind of courses does he take there?
Mrs. Pataki. He is taking courses leading to his master's
degree in engineering.
The Chairman. What does he teach at Cooper Union?
Mrs. Pataki. Engineering.
The Chairman. Did anyone come to your home looking for your
husband within the last week?
Mrs. Pataki. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Did this committee ask you where your husband
was?
Mrs. Pataki. No.
The Chairman. Did the U.S. marshal ask you where your
husband was?
Mrs. Pataki. At the time he came to me originally, do you
mean?
The Chairman. At any time in the last two or three weeks?
Mrs. Pataki. No.
The Chairman. You had no knowledge that the committee was
attempting to find your husband?
Mrs. Pataki. No, as a matter of fact, when the telegram was
delivered to me Tuesday night, my husband was home with me. The
telegram was addressed to me.
The Chairman. Is it your testimony that your husband has no
knowledge the committee wants him to appear?
Mrs. Pataki. That would be correct.
The Chairman. In other words, you say, as of now, your
husband has no knowledge that he is wanted by the committee?
Mrs. Pataki. I would say that is satisfactory.
The Chairman. You say Mr. Rabinowitz talked with him and
after he discussed matters with him, your husband still had no
knowledge of any kind?
Mrs. Pataki. I wasn't at home when Mr. Rabinowitz called. I
do know Mr. Rabinowitz called and my husband gave me the
message he had left for me, and that is the extent of my
knowledge of the conversation.
The Chairman. Did the committee tell you the committee
wanted to serve subpoena on him?
Mrs. Pataki. [No answer].
Mr. Cohn. There has been no discussion between you and your
husband about the fact the committee is looking for him?
Mrs. Pataki. To my knowledge and from what I understand, my
husband is neither aware the committee is looking for him or
wanting him at any time for the simple reason that he has been
home right along with me and when I have been home to receive a
subpoena, either the first time, or telegram which came, my
husband has been there with me.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Rabinowitz never said we wanted your husband
down here to testify? Is that your testimony under oath?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I think it is privilege clearly.
Mr. Cohn. About producing her husband?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I think she ought to.
Mrs. Pataki. It was my understanding that there was a
comment made yesterday about the fact that the committee had
been looking for my husband and that he was attempting to evade
service. I said to Mr. Rabinowitz that I found it very
difficult to believe that.
Mr. Rabinowitz. When did you say that to me?
Mrs. Pataki. This morning after I left home. This was the
first time I had discussed it with Mr. Rabinowitz and I said
that it was hardly possible for me to believe it inasmuch as my
husband has been home and he has been there on both occasions
when I was served with a subpoena the first time and the
telegram. Since he is home, well, as often as he normally would
be, I couldn't believe somebody couldn't reach him if they
wanted him.
Mr. Cohn. Why didn't you appear yesterday when you were
served the day before?
Mrs. Pataki. The telegram came about 7:00 or shortly
thereafter, I believe, Tuesday night and I did not have time to
confer with Mr. Rabinowitz, which I feel is necessary. I had
had arrangements before for yesterday which I found unable to
break.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you confer with Mr. Rabinowitz before you
appeared last time? This is not the first time you have been
called before this committee. You were temporarily excused with
the understanding that you were still under subpoena and would
be back when directed by the committee to come. It is not your
option to decide whether you are coming or not on a particular
notice. If given notice, you are to be here or be in contempt
of the committee.
Mrs. Pataki. Mr. Cohn, I understand. I am agreeable to
cooperating to come down, as far as I do feel that I should be
given a reasonable amount of notice so I could make
preparations to appear.
The Chairman. I am not asking what you said to your lawyer.
When did you confer with him after you got the wire? Was it
about midnight before last by phone?
Mrs. Pataki. Yes, it was, Senator.
The Chairman. When did you next confer with him, either by
phone, or otherwise?
Mrs. Pataki. Today.
The Chairman. On the way down?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I think the record might show that I was
here all day yesterday.
Mrs. Pataki. We were going to make arrangements----
The Chairman. When did you next confer with him?
Mrs. Pataki. Early this morning.
The Chairman. You mean on the way down here?
Mrs. Pataki. Well, it wasn't on the way. I had met him an
hour before we were due to come in here today.
The Chairman. Did he tell you he wasn't available for such
a conference yesterday?
Mrs. Pataki. He had told me he was tied up; that he had
clients who were scheduled to appear here yesterday and that he
would not have time to confer with me, yes.
The Chairman. What time does your husband normally leave
the house in the morning?
Mrs. Pataki. It varies, depending on the classes he is
teaching.
The Chairman. Is that the only occupation he has--teaching
at Cooper Union?
Mrs. Pataki. Yes.
The Chairman. What is the correct name of the high school?
Mrs. Pataki. It is called the Cooper Union.
The Chairman. And is your husband a Communist?
Mrs. Pataki. I don't wish to answer that question on the
basis of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Is your husband an espionage agent?
Mrs. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the basis
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. When you say on the basis of the Fifth
Amendment, are you refusing on the grounds that your answer
might tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Pataki. Yes, I am.
The Chairman. When did your husband leave the Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mrs. Pataki. I really don't know when.
The Chairman. Approximately?
Mrs. Pataki. I would say seven years ago. I am really not
clear on the date.
The Chairman. Was it prior to your marriage?
Mrs. Pataki. Yes.
The Chairman. When were you married?
Mrs. Pataki. January 1952, so it was prior to that.
The Chairman. How long prior to that?
Mrs. Pataki. I am not sure, perhaps a year, perhaps two
years. I really don't know. I don't remember.
The Chairman. 1950 or 1951?
Mrs. Pataki. It might have been.
The Chairman. What was he doing when you married him?
Mrs. Pataki. He was teaching at Cooper Union.
The Chairman. When did you see Joel Barr last?
Mrs. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the basis
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. When did you see Alfred Sarant last?
Mrs. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the basis
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with forging the
passport for espionage agents?
Mrs. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the basis
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever, on instructions of the
Communist party, take forged passports to people known to you
to be Communist agents?
Mrs. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the basis
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. When you refuse to answer in regard to your
husband, you are not invoking the marital privilege but the
Fifth Amendment. Is that correct?
Mrs. Pataki. Yes, I am.
The Chairman. Do you know what your husband teaches at
Cooper Union?
Mrs. Pataki. Yes. He teaches engineering.
The Chairman. Does he solicit his students to join the
Communist party?
Mrs. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the basis
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You will consider yourself under subpoena.
You will be notified when you will be needed. That will
undoubtedly be the latter part of next week. Unless you are
notified to the contrary, you will be in Washington at ten
o'clock next Thursday in room 318 in the Senate Office
Building.
Mrs. Pataki. A week from today?
The Chairman. A week from today.
I may say, it is entirely possible it may not be.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I understand you are merely making certain
she is getting adequate notice this time.
May I just have that again?
The Chairman. A week from this Thursday, which is the 12th
at 318 in the Senate Office Building. Now, if that hearing is
postponed for a day or two, as it may be, your counsel will be
notified.
Mrs. Pataki. Senator, it becomes a little difficult for me
to afford a trip to and from Washington. Is it possible to work
out some provision to take care of that?
The Chairman. Yes, you are entitled to your cost of travel
and if you do not have funds to advance the cost yourself, the
committee will take care of that through your attorney.
Mrs. Pataki. I can manage it temporarily.
Was there a time?
The Chairman. Ten o'clock.
You understand, one, that if you cannot advance money for
travel, it will be advanced by the committee. Otherwise, if you
can buy the ticket, you will be given a check when you get to
Washington. Counsel should ask the clerk down there, otherwise
there is a waiting period. There is no reason why you can't
have the check immediately upon arrival in Washington.
Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF GUNNAR BOYE
The Chairman. In the matter now in hearing, do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Boye. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Can we have your full name?
Mr. Boye. May I say that I have laryngitis and my voice is
not very clear. I will try to speak as loud as I possibly can.
My name if Gunnar Boye.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mr. Boye. Machinist.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Boye. Arma Corporation, Garden City, Long Island.
Mr. Cohn. What is your title?
Mr. Boye. I am a Leadman.
Mr. Cohn. What are your duties as such?
Mr. Boye. Well, when the foreman isn't there, I take charge
of the department.
Mr. Cohn. How many people work in it?
Mr. Boye. Ten, eleven.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work is done in the department?
Mr. Boye. Well, machine instrument parts--parts for
instruments.
Mr. Cohn. Is any of that in connection with any government
contracts?
Mr. Boye. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. For which branch of the government?
Mr. Boye. I think for army and navy and air force, I
believe, too.
Mr. Cohn. What part of the army?
Mr. Boye. That I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Has any Signal Corps work ever been done at Arma?
Mr. Boye. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Has any work on radar, electronics, been done
there?
Mr. Boye. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Does any of the work you do involve radar in any
way?
Mr. Boye. I do not think so but I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any access to classified
material?
Mr. Boye. By that I suppose you mean restricted, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a Communist?
Mr. Boye. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Boye. About twenty years ago. Eighteen or twenty years
ago----
Mr. Cohn. Do you know David Greenglass?
Mr. Boye. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work with David Greenglass?
Mr. Boye. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know David Greenglass at Armas?
Mr. Boye. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you tell David Greenglass you were then a
Communist?
Mr. Boye. I did not. I have been trying to forget that many
years.
Mr. Cohn. For how long have you been trying to forget it?
Mr. Boye. I would say as long as I have been working for
the government.
Mr. Cohn. How long is that?
Mr. Boye. About 1939. I was only what you might say a
Communist in the understanding that I joined, somebody asked me
to join the Communist party and I went to one or two meetings.
That is all.
Mr. Cohn. Who asked you to join the Communist party?
Mr. Boye. It was a man who worked in the Pisto Corporation,
but his name I really do not know because he worked there only
a very short time. I believe it must have been around 1934 or
1935.
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the Communist party according
to what you say?
Mr. Boye. When did I leave? I just didn't go there any
more. Just a year. It must have been 1934 or 1935.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a Communist in 1938?
Mr. Boye. No, I was not.
Mr. Cohn. Now, were you a Communist without being a member
of the party and tell people you were a Communist?
Mr. Boye. No, I do not.
Mr. Cohn. When was the last time you told anyone you
believed in communism?
Mr. Boye. That is very hard for me to say because----
The Chairman. May I tell you for your protection, in view
of the fact that you do not have a lawyer, we have sworn
testimony that you did tell various people at a time much later
than you indicate you were a Communist, you told them without
qualification you were a Communist and believed in communism.
Understand I am merely telling you this for your own
information. I am not making any decision as to whether they
were telling the truth or you are.
Mr. Boye. I understand. I don't think that I have said and
meant that I was a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. Why did you say that--something they could have
misunderstood?
Mr. Boye. That I do not know because I have been a citizen
since 1941, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. When you applied for citizenship, did you
disclose that you had been a Communist?
Mr. Boye. I did not. I do not think that question was in
the application that I filled out. At that time there was no
question.
Mr. Cohn. Did you disclose to your employers at Arma that
you had been a Communist?
Mr. Boye. There was no question. I did mention the fact I
had been a member of the International Workers Order.
Mr. Cohn. When you started to work on classified work, did
the FBI come to you and ask you questions?
Mr. Boye. No, sir. Ever since 1938 when I started to work
for the Norden Company which was making, at the time, the
Norden bomb site.
Mr. Cohn. As far as you know, no one ever investigated you?
Mr. Boye. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. And as far as you know, no one investigated you
up to this time?
Mr. Boye. Yes, sir. I was up for a hearing sometime ago.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Boye. Don't pen me down. I think it is four months ago.
Mr. Cohn. What happened?
Mr. Boye. I told exactly what I am telling you now on the
same questions asked by you.
Mr. Cohn. Who did you have a hearing before?
Mr. Boye. It was on Columbus Avenue, New York.
Mr. Cohn. You mean the Immigration Service?
Mr. Boye. The Immigration Service.
Mr. Cohn. Now, when did you leave the International
Workers' Order?
Mr. Boye. I believe I was a member to 1936.
Mr. Cohn. You left in 1936?
Mr. Boye. I believe so, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What other Communist organizations do you belong
to?
Mr. Boye. No.
Mr. Cohn. When did you come to this country?
Mr. Boye. 1923.
Mr. Cohn. And where were you born?
Mr. Boye. Copenhagen, Denmark.
Mr. Cohn. Will you tell us how it happened that you joined
the Communist party?
Mr. Boye. Well, at that time, of course, the Communist
party wasn't looked upon as it is looked upon today, so
somebody asked me to join it, so I said, ``Okay, I will join''
and I believe I paid dues twice and that is about nineteen or
twenty years ago. Just around 1933 or 1934. I do not exactly
remember.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember who asked you to join?
Mr. Boye. No, I do not remember his name. I believe he only
worked there a short time. I do not even know the meeting place
at that time.
Mr. Cohn. Roughly, how many meetings did you attend?
Mr. Boye. Roughly, I suppose two.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know the names of anybody else?
Mr. Boye. I do not and I am telling you the truth.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know the names and have forgotten?
Mr. Boye. I suppose I know them by first name.
Mr. Cohn. Were they people who also worked with you in this
plant? Did people attending Communist meetings with you, were
they people who worked with you at that time?
Mr. Boye. Yes, one of them was.
Mr. Cohn. You were working where?
Mr. Boye. Presto Lock Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. And then you worked for Norden?
Mr. Boye. No. Let's get this straight. I worked for a
manufacturing machine and tool company. We were making the
Norden bomb site then.
Mr. Cohn. That was what year?
Mr. Boye. I started there in 1938.
Mr. Cohn. How long did you work there?
Mr. Boye. Then I was sent to Indianapolis, Indiana, to be a
general foreman in the Lucas Herold Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. What were they manufacturing?
Mr. Boye. We were making the Norden bomb site.
Mr. Cohn. What year was that?
Mr. Boye. It was a month before the war started.
Mr. Cohn. How long did you work there?
Mr. Boye. Two years. I then came back to Manufacturing
Machine and Tool Company.
Mr. Cohn. And how long did you work for them then?
Mr. Boye. May I look at my card?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, certainly.
Mr. Boye. 1949.
Mr. Cohn. And during that time, what type of work were you
doing?
Mr. Boye. Well, as I said, the Norden bomb site. I was a
foreman.
Mr. Cohn. Up until 1949 you were still working on the bomb
site?
Mr. Boye. Not all the time. After the war we were doing
different jobs.
Mr. Cohn. But it had nothing to do with defense work?
Mr. Boye. Well, some did.
Mr. Cohn. Off and on you were working on the bomb site in
1949?
Mr. Boye. After the war I did not work on the bomb site
anymore. The bomb site was eliminated. They had no use for it
anymore.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Boye. After that we worked a wire recorder. They had
some other instruments too. Just what they were, I do not know.
Mr. Cohn. Are you working on defense work now?
Mr. Boye. I am working on defense work now.
Mr. Cohn. What type of equipment?
Mr. Boye. That I don't know. We don't know what goes on the
assembly----
Mr. Cohn. In other words, it is highly secret and you do
not make the entire instrument, only parts?
Mr. Boye. I don't think I would put it that way. My job is
not assembling the instrument itself.
Mr. Cohn. Is this highly secret work?
Mr. Boye. Well, it is restricted work.
Mr. Cohn. What do you mean by restricted?
Mr. Boye. It is a word stamped on in paint.
Mr. Cohn. Is the general public excluded from where you
work?
Mr. Boye. Oh, yes.
Mr. Cohn. There are guards at the gate?
Mr. Boye. Oh, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have anything stamped secret--the word
secret?
Mr. Boye. I think I do have. I am not sure but restricted
is on most of it.
The Chairman. Now, again I want to inform you, just so you
will have the information, we have the positive testimony of
what appears to be reliable witnesses as late as 1949 and 1950,
that you said, without any qualification, that you were a
Communist; that you were a member of the Communist party at
that time.
As I say, it is not my function to cite the other
witnesses. We are dealing with such a tremendously important
matter. It means that somebody is lying or you have perjured
yourself. I wish you'd search your mind.
Mr. Boye. I told you I would tell the truth and nothing but
the truth. That is a fact.
The Chairman. Your testimony is that under no circumstances
since 1946, we'll say, did you ever tell anyone you are a
Communist or a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Boye. That is correct.
The Chairman. And did you ever register as a member of the
American Labor Party?
Mr. Boye. Oh, yes. I was going to volunteer that
information that I registered American Labor party, maybe 1940
and then on until the present time. Not the last time or the
time before.
The Chairman. That is three or four weeks ago?
Mr. Boye. That is correct. I was a member of the American
Labor party.
The Chairman. Did you go to the meetings?
Mr. Boye. I have never been to one meeting for the reason I
worked nights.
The Chairman. You knew that the American Labor party has
been generally known to be a completely Communist dominated
party in the last number of years?
Mr. Boye. In the last number of years, yes.
The Chairman. Do you recall when the more conservative
elements broke away because it was Communist dominated and
started the liberal party? Do you know what year that was?
Mr. Boye. I do not.
The Chairman. You were aware of the fact?
Mr. Boye. I was aware of the fact in the American Labor
party.
The Chairman. And you knew that the--we will call them the
more conservative--anti-Communists withdrew from the party?
Mr. Boye. I don't know all the Communists who stayed in the
American Labor party.
The Chairman. You continued on in the American Labor party
after that split?
Mr. Boye. I did. I continued after the split. I took notice
of' the split but I continued, yes.
The Chairman. Would you care to tell us why you continued
on as a member of the party which was publicly named, publicly
known to be completely Communist dominated. Why did you lend
your support to that if you were no longer a Communist?
Mr. Boye. Well, I have never gone to any of the meetings as
far as belonging to a party. A lady came around and I gave her,
I believe, a dollar a year. I have no reason. I can't give you
a concrete reason why I kept on and on, except I wanted to
belong to a party.
The Chairman. Did you ever register in either of the two
parties; did you ever register either Republican or Democrat?
Mr. Boye. I have never. In other words, to the best of my
recollection, I have never registered Democrat or Republican.
The Chairman. You are still a regular member of the
American Labor party?
Mr. Boye. I am not now. I was up to two years ago.
The Chairman. You did not vote in the last two years?
Mr. Boye. Oh, yes, I voted every year. I think it is two
years ago I last registered.
The Chairman. Did you vote Tuesday?
Mr. Boye. Yes.
The Chairman. Well, now, in order to do that you would have
to register.
Mr. Boye. I beg your pardon. I did register but I didn't
designate any party when the primaries----
The Chairman. But you registered as a voter?
Mr. Boye. Yes, positively, yes. It was my misunderstanding.
I hope you understand. It is part because of lack of knowledge
of the rules of registering. I registered to vote.
The Chairman. Am I correct? I know nothing about the New
York elections. You go down and register either Democrat,
Republican, American Labor party, or you go down and register
and leave your party affiliation blank?
Mr. Boye. Yes. So I did register. I have voted in all the
elections since I became a citizen.
The Chairman. Up until two years ago when you registered
you designated the American Labor party. Since then you have
registered and left your party designation blank?
Mr. Boye. I believe that one year ago I did not put any
name down.
The Chairman. Did you do some campaigning for Mark Antonio?
Mr. Boye. I never did.
The Chairman. You didn't carry his literature?
Mr. Boye. Never had his literature in the house.
The Chairman. You didn't.
Mr. Boye. Never did.
The Chairman. Let's revise that question. Did you carry
campaign literature or campaign for American Labor party
candidates?
Mr. Boye. I never visited any people for the American Labor
party and never given out any inferences.
The Chairman. Around the plant didn't you urge workers, co-
workers, to vote ALP?
Mr. Boye. I mentioned the fact I was voting American Labor
party, but I did not urge anybody to do that.
The Chairman. In the year 1949, were you not asking the
other workers to vote the American Labor party ticket?
Mr. Boye. I might have said, ``Vote American Labor Party.''
I have never--my voice is getting worse.
The Chairman. I think in view of the fact that you have
laryngitis----
Mr. Boye. I'd like to get it over with. I have nothing to
hide.
The Chairman. Just one other question. Did you tell the
hearing board that you had been in the American Labor party
after the split in the party, but you knew it was Communist
dominated or did they ask you?
Mr. Boye. They did not ask me.
The Chairman. Do you still support the American Labor
party?
Mr. Boye. I am not a regular member of the American Labor
party.
The Chairman. Do you still consider yourself a member of
the American Labor party?
Mr. Boye. No, I do not consider myself a member of the
American Labor party.
The Chairman. Do you consider yourself a member of some
other party?
Mr. Boye. I do not and am not a member of any political
party whatsoever.
The Chairman. Did you support American Labor party
candidates this year?
Mr. Boye. I did not.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
Mr Cohn. Who is the head of the company for which you work?
Mr. Boye. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Who is your immediate superior?
Mr. Boye. A Mr. Fred Geodian.
Mr. Cohn. Spell his name.
Mr. Boye. G-e-o-d-i-a-n.
Mr. Cohn. Who was on the hearing board when you were called
on it? Do you know?
Mr. Boye. I do not know.
Mr. Cohn. Did they give you a copy of the proceedings,
testimony?
Mr. Boye. No, they did not.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, you didn't get anything from them
at all?
Mr. Boye. They asked me similar questions as you are asking
me.
Mr. Cohn. Did they serve a paper setting forth the charges
against you?
Mr. Boye. No, they did not. They asked me to come.
Mr. Cohn. Was this the Immigration Department?
Mr. Boye. Department of Justice, I believe. I do think it
is at immigration. I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know what type security clearance you
have? Are you cleared to handle secret or top secret material?
Mr. Boye. I could not say.
Mr. Cohn. You say you have seen stuff stamped secret at
times?
Mr. Boye. I believe I have.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a Communist in Denmark?
Mr. Boye. No, I was not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever belong to a Marxist Society there?
Mr. Boye. No, I was only a young fellow, nineteen years
old.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mr. Boye. Divorced.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Boye. I do not. I have never seen him.
The Chairman. Do you know David Greenglass?
Mr. Boye. He worked right alongside of me.
The Chairman. Was he a Communist?
Mr. Boye. He has never spoken about him being a Communist.
The Chairman. Did he ever visit your home?
Mr. Boye. Yes, one time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever visit his home?
Mr. Boye. I never visited his home.
The Chairman. You say he only visited your home one time?
Mr. Boye. I can tell you the reason if you want to know.
His wife had a very bad accident. She was burned and he tried
to put the flames out with his hands. While he had his hands
bandaged, I asked him to come home with me for dinner. They
gave his wife twenty pints of blood.
The Chairman. He is a good friend of yours?
Mr. Boye. No, a fellow-worker.
The Chairman. Was he an enemy? He would have no reason to
lie about you?
Mr. Boye. None whatsoever.
The Chairman. You worked right next to him?
Mr. Boye. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you tell him you had been a Communist?
Mr. Boye. I did not. I have not told any people I have been
a Communist. That is something so far in the past----
Mr. Cohn. You were in the American Labor party only last
year?
Mr. Boye. That is something that I cannot--I don't want to
argue the point.
Mr. Cohn. Your view is that the American Labor party is
Communist dominated?
Mr. Boye. No.
Mr. Cohn. You found out it is a more radical party than
either the Republican or Democratic parties?
Mr. Boye. I think it probably is. I felt I should belong to
a party and I didn't see why I shouldn't belong to the American
Labor party. As far as Communist activities, I have never gone
to any of them.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. I wish you would consider yourself under
subpoena. I don't know whether we will call you again or not.
Mr. Boye. I will be willing to appear any time you want me
to appear.
The Chairman. Where is your company?
Mr. Boye. Garden City.
The Chairman. It is spelled A-r-m-a?
Mr. Boye. A-r-m-a. Arma Corporation, Engineering
Corporation.
The Chairman. Do you happen to know the telephone number?
Mr. Boye. No, I do not.
The Chairman. What position does Fred Geodian hold?
Mr. Boye. He is my foreman.
The Chairman. Of what section?
Mr. Boye. We call it the Model Shop. It is usually called
the Model Shop.
The Chairman. All right. Thank you very much.
Mr. Boye. I am the leadman.
The Chairman. Just one final question. Will you tell us why
you didn't register in the American Labor party two years ago?
Mr. Boye. For no apparent reason. I just didn't want to be
bothered with people coming around.
The Chairman. You didn't change your ideas about the
American Labor party?
Mr. Boye. I had no ideas about the American Labor party. I
didn't want to belong to the other parties so I belonged to the
American Labor party. So far as political opinion is concerned,
I could have belonged to the Democrat or Republican.
The Chairman. In other words, you feel about the American
Labor party today as you did when you registered?
Mr. Boye. I had no special feeling for it. I wanted to
belong to a party, so I can say ``yes'' to that.
The Chairman. I thank you.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER HINDIN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
MONTAGUE CASPER)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn.
In the matter now in hearing, do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Hindin. I do, sir.
The Chairman. The witness is Alexander Hindin, H-i-n-d-i-n?
Mr. Hindin. Yes.
The Chairman. Would counsel identify himself?
Mr. Casper. My name is Montague Casper, C-a-s-p-e-r, 30
Pine Street, New York 5, New York.
The Chairman. Mr. Casper, if you have not been before the
committee before, I will give you a quick run-down on the
committee rules. Counsel may consult with his client at any
time he cares to, whenever you think he needs your advice or he
thinks he needs your advice. If the time comes you want to have
a private conference, we will give you a private room. If at
any time we come to matters that you think you want to check
into the facts and laws and you want an adjournment to discuss
the matter with your client, will try and accommodate you on
that. We have a rule that counsel himself cannot take part,
cannot enter objections, cannot make statements. He can only do
that through his client.
Mr. Carr. Mr. Hindin, would you give us your address?
Mr. Hindin. Box 298, R.F.D. 1, Byport, New Jersey.
Mr. Carr. Your attorney is Mr. Casper, whose office address
is 20 Pine Street, New York?
Mr. Hindin. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Mr. Hindin, where are you employed?
Mr. Hindin. I am employed at the Coles Signal Laboratory,
which is part of Fort Monmouth, New Jersey.
Mr. Carr. What is your position there?
Mr. Hindin. I am a mechanical engineer, GS-12.
The Chairman. Have you been suspended?
Mr. Hindin. That is right. I have been suspended as of
October 20th.
The Chairman. Have they served you with a letter of
charges?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir. They have not.
The Chairman. In other words, you have not been informed as
to the reason for the suspension?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir. I have not.
The Chairman. And your supervisor is whom?
Mr. Hindin. The immediate supervisor is Mr. Norman Lee.
The Chairman. Were you suspended prior to this suspension
in October?
Mr. Hindin. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Hindin. October 20, 1948.
The Chairman. At that time you were charged with a number
of charges, I think it was as high as five, weren't they?
Mr. Hindin. I can't recall the exact charges, sir. There is
a record of them.
The Chairman. Do you have the copy of the charges?
Mr. Hindin. Not with me.
The Chairman. Do you have them at home?
Mr. Casper. I can be helpful. I have his records in my
office. I represented Mr. Hindin at that time. There were two
charges, one was broken up into many parts. They all concerned
his alleged sympathy for the Communist ideology and the second
was a member of his family.
The Chairman. Mr. Hindin, were you a member of the
Communist party in 1944?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a member in 1930?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a member between any of the years
between 1930 and 1944?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have never been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been asked to join the party?
Mr. Hindin. Not that I recall, Senator.
The Chairman. Were you ever asked to join the Young
Communist League?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Young Communist League?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir, I did not.
The Chairman. For your information and for the information
of your attorney, I will give you a quick run down on the
information which the committee has. Keep in mind when I give
you this information it is no indication on my part that I
think you are not telling us the truth or that the other
parties that testified are not. I just think you should have
the information as a courtesy to your attorney so he can
properly advise you.
We have testimony here that you were identified as a
Communist at various times. I won't go over the date, from 1930
to 1944; that you attended meetings and that you paid money. I
don't have the complete report. I have a resume of it.
I gather from the report, the nature of it, that it must be
from an agent of the FBI, who was allegedly in your cell in the
Communist party. We are informed that the witnesses are
available to testify against you. As I say, I don't know, but I
assume from this that they are no longer undercover agents of
the bureau or they are willing to pull themselves up for this
case.
Again, I have no way of knowing whether you are the
Alexander Hindin described in this or whether those people are
telling the truth. They have not been before me. All I can say,
if reliable witnesses come here and swear that you are a member
of the party, saw you paying dues--sometimes the bureau has men
collecting dues.
If you testify to the contrary, then your case would be
submitted to the Justice Department for the grand jury. I am
not intimating that your man is lying, Mr. Casper. We, here on
the committee, try very hard not to trap anyone into a position
where he is guilty of criminal activities.
I may say, this seems about the most positive report you
could get. It includes your wife.
What is your wife's first name?
Mr. Hindin. Pauline.
The Chairman. How do you spell it?
Mr. Hindin. P-a-u-l-i-n-e.
The Chairman. That would conform with this. They have P-a-
u-l-i-n. That may be a typographical error.
Was your wife a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Hindin. Not to my knowledge, sir.
The Chairman. Did she ever in your presence and the
presence of others admit membership in the Communist party?
Mr. Hindin. Not in my presence, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Casper, I would like to suggest, I think
you should, in order to intelligently advise this man, take him
out and talk to him. I have given clients bad advice because I
didn't know the facts. I have given clients advice extremely
bad for which they have served time because they were reticent
about telling me the truth. If I had had the truth, I could
have done a much better job for them.
There is a detailed report on a man who has worked as
Alexander Hindin has, same name, his wife has the same name,
and I think you should go out and talk to him.
Mr. Casper. Senator, may I say for the record, I have
talked to Mr. Hindin. I represented him in 1948 and 1949 and I
know him and have seen him ever since. I know his wife. I know
his family. I have advised him on many occasions that if there
was any truth to these charges, I wanted to know about it. He
has assured me since the first time I met him that he has never
been a member of the party, as late as this morning.
The Chairman. I will call a brief witness in the meantime.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL PAUL GISSER
The Chairman. Will you stand and raise your right hand.
In the matter now in hearing, do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Gisser. I do.
Mr. Carr. Mr. Gisser, where are you employed?
Mr. Gisser. Right now in Lakewood for Jack People.
Mr. Carr. What is the address, please?
Mr. Gisser. Tenth Street in Lakewood, New Jersey.
Mr. Carr. What business?
Mr. Gisser. Delicatessen.
Mr. Carr. What is your home address?
Mr. Gisser. 346 Ocean Avenue, Lakewood.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Gisser. I was.
Mr. Carr. From what period to what period?
Mr. Gisser. I was there twice. I was there from 1940 to
1942, I believe, and then I was there from 1951 to 1952.
Mr. Carr. And when did you leave?
Mr. Gisser. 1952, in July.
Mr. Carr. What was the occasion of your leaving?
Mr. Gisser. They claimed that I--they proved that when I
filed my application for Civil Service I didn't put down I had
been a member of IWO, International Workers Order.
Mr. Carr. How long had you been a member?
Mr. Gisser. I had been a member of the IWO about three
years.
Mr. Carr. What years were they?
Mr. Gisser. I believe I dropped out in 1948.
Mr. Carr. What lodge were you a member of?
Mr. Gisser. I don't believe it had a name. Just Lakewood
Lodge.
Mr. Carr. Did it have a number?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, but I wouldn't know that. Although it had
a number and I was president, I wouldn't know the number. I
dropped out and forgot everything I ever knew about it at that
time.
Mr. Carr. Was that the only Communist front organization
you belonged to?
Mr. Gisser. That is all.
Mr. Carr. How did you happen to belong to the IWO?
Mr. Gisser. When I joined IWO, I joined as an insurance
member. In fact, I helped organize the insurance group and when
they started getting other ideas, I dropped out.
Mr. Carr. What did you say the last year was?
Mr. Gisser. About 1947.
Mr. Carr. You joined it for the insurance benefits; you
were active in promoting the Lakewood Lodge, building it up,
then you learned that there were other ideas involved besides
insurance benefits?
Mr. Gisser. That is right.
Mr. Carr. These ideas were to promote communism?
Mr. Gisser. No, not as far as I could see, although the
chairman brought up different points on the floor. I remember
they asked for donations for something for the foreign born.
Mr. Carr. American Committee for the Protection of the
Foreign Born?
Mr. Gisser. Something. They asked donations for that. They
asked for donation, if I am not mistaken, for Scottsboro case,
if I am not mistaken. All those things had nothing to do in my
opinion with our lodge. They couldn't see it my way and I
wouldn't see it theirs.
The Chairman. In 1945, either March 30th or April 13th, I
don't know which, did you attend a meeting at which a
collection was taken up for the Daily Worker?
Mr. Gisser. I can't honestly say that I ever remember.
The Chairman. Can you give me an idea where it was held?
Mr. Gisser. I don't know.
The Chairman. Where did you hold your lodge meetings?
Mr. Gisser. In Carpenter's Hall.
Mr. Carr. In Lakewood?
Mr. Gisser. Yes.
The Chairman. At how many meetings you attended, if any
were collections taken up for the Daily Worker, these IWO
meetings?
Mr. Gisser. You mean from the lodge that I was at myself?
None there. I must admit I didn't go to all the lodge meetings.
The Chairman. Any meeting?
Mr. Gisser. I was at an affair in the Tom's River Community
Center where they made a drive for the collection of the Daily
Worker, but I wouldn't know the dates.
The Chairman. That was a Communist party meeting?
Mr. Gisser. No, it was either a movie or an entertainment
group.
Mr. Carr. Do you know who sponsored that?
Mr. Gisser. IWO Lodge of Tom's River.
Mr. Carr. This was IWO sponsored meeting?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, it was.
Mr. Carr. How many other times did they have meetings,
sponsor meetings where collections were taken up for the Daily
Worker?
Mr. Gisser. I couldn't say, sir. I wasn't that active in
it. I was chairman and went to meetings.
Mr. Carr. Were you chairman of the meeting when they took
up a collection for the Daily Worker?
Mr. Gisser. I am almost positive. I won't swear to it
because I can't recall the particular incident.
Mr. Carr. When they had that drive, weren't you chairman of
that meeting?
Mr. Gisser. I don't think so.
Mr. Carr. In other words, if you were chairman of the group
at that time, you were present?
Mr. Gisser. I was present, I think.
Mr. Carr. Is there any reason you would not if chairman?
Mr. Gisser. I know Tom's River, another lodge, I went down
as a guest.
Mr. Carr. I didn't ask you your name. It is Samuel Paul
Gisser?
Mr. Gisser. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Is that the name you assumed after birth?
Mr. Gisser. That is the name on my birth certificate.
Mr. Carr. Have you traveled under other names than Sam
Gisser, Sam P.?
Mr. Gisser. Samuel without the P.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever been known as Samuel Paul?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, I was.
Mr. Carr. Why did you assume that?
Mr. Gisser. I assumed that while in business.
Mr. Carr. What business?
Mr. Gisser. Dress business.
Mr. Carr. Were you known to the public as Samuel Paul?
Mr. Gisser. To about ten or fifteen people, I would say.
Mr. Carr. Did you have a bank account in the name of Samuel
Paul?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, in Freehold National Bank, if I am not
mistaken. First National Bank of Freehold or Freehold National
Bank. There are two banks there.
Mr. Carr. What state is that?
Mr. Gisser. New Jersey. Pardon me, sir. I had made a loan
from a loan company and I wanted to start an account in
Freehold. I also had an account in Lakewood in the Peoples Bank
and under the W.T. Shop and I figures if I ran short, I could
take it from another.
Mr. Carr. Well, did you ever join the Communist party?
Mr. Gisser. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. Carr. You are sure of that?
Mr. Gisser. I am positive.
Mr. Carr. Would it be possible to join without knowing it
yourself?
Mr. Gisser. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Did you have a card in the IWO?
Mr. Gisser. I believe I did.
Mr. Carr. Membership card?
Mr. Gisser. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Do you know what the number of that card was?
Mr. Gisser. No, I don't, sir.
Mr. Carr. You are sure that wasn't a Communist party card?
Mr. Gisser. I will almost swear to that although--may I
interrupt--when I was called up to the Civil Service Board,
they showed me a photostatic copy of a card made out to Samuel
Paul and I explained to them if that was a Communist party
card, when I'd get home, if you know what I mean, they were out
electioneering, and I would take a card and put it in my
pocket. There was no signature, nothing I ever wrote myself. If
I did see it was a Communist card, I merely destroyed. I
wouldn't join no Communist party at that time, although stress
was made, put on me, I was active in IWO to get members into
it. In fact, IWO use to come out and fraternalize. I was cited
for signing up twenty members, just to give you an example. I
signed up twenty fellows as insurance members, colored fellows,
and they turned around and they brought the papers in to me
Morning Freiheit. All those colored families got a Morning
Freiheit. Of course, none of them could read it. I said,
``Well, throw them away.''
Mr. Carr. Was that a Communist paper?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, it is.
Mr. Carr. In other words, you signed them up for IWO as an
insurance member only? Did you collect money from them?
Mr. Gisser. The only thing I collected was $1.00 initiation
fee, or whatever rate they had. They have a regular rate for
insurance. They also had what is known as a cemetery, whatever
you call it.
Mr. Carr. And you say after you signed them up they started
to get the Communist paper.
Mr. Gisser. They got the Jewish paper, that is right.
Mr. Carr. You say you were acknowledged for signing up
twenty Communists?
Mr. Gisser. I was honored for signing up twenty Communists?
No, not Communists. Twenty members into the IWO, not as
Communists.
Mr. Carr. Did you think at the time you belonged to it that
the IWO was a Communist dominated organization?
Mr. Gisser. I swear I never did.
Mr. Carr. When did you first think it might be Communist
dominated?
Mr. Gisser. Well, when all this propaganda was coming out
and this fraternalizing and we went down to the school--well, I
will say it this way: The IWO was running a series of concerts
in Lakewood. We had a speaker, a singer and a lecturer. I mean
on three different groups. We went down to the school, which is
the only public hall we have in town to rent it and they
refused to rent it to us because they claimed the IWO was a
Communist affiliation.
Mr. Carr. Was that the first time you had any suspicion of
this?
Mr. Gisser. That is the first time I got any suspicion and
started looking around and questioning.
Mr. Carr. That was what year?
Mr. Gisser. I am afraid I don't recall.
Mr. Carr. How long was that before you dropped out?
Mr. Gisser. I dropped out about seven or eight months
later. I still wanted the insurance. I tried to find out if I
could have the insurance and not be a member.
Mr. Carr. When were you elected chairman?
Mr. Gisser. I was elected chairman as soon as it was
formed.
Mr. Carr. In other words, when IWO was formed, you were
elected chairman?
Mr. Gisser. That is right
The Chairman. How did you drop out, by letter?
Mr. Gisser. I stopped paying dues and the insurance dropped
and everything else.
The Chairman. What town?
Mr. Gisser. Lakewood. I have been living in Lakewood
fourteen years.
The Chairman. And you continued living there?
Mr. Gisser. Yes.
The Chairman. You didn't change your employment?
Mr. Gisser. Yes.
The Chairman. At the time you dropped out did you change
your employment?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, I believe I did. I believe when I dropped
out I did change my employment. I couldn't give you the exact
year. I sold liquor for about four years. I was a liquor
salesman.
The Chairman. As a liquor salesman could you belong to the
IWO?
Mr. Gisser. Yes.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. Do you know Eva Silver?
Mr. Gisser. I can't honestly say I do.
The Chairman. She was in Open Road, Inc.
Mr. Gisser. No, I am afraid I don't, sir. Maybe if I'd see
her. I don't know the name.
The Chairman. Did you know anyone in that particular
outfit--Open Road, Incorporated?
Mr. Gisser. No.
The Chairman. Was your wife ever a Communist party member?
Mr. Gisser. No, sir. She was at that same affair, by the
way, where cards were given out.
The Chairman. Well, what was that affair where cards were
given out?
Mr. Gisser. That was a party, somebody had a birthday and
one of these days I will remind myself and drop into the FBI
and give them this name. We went to a birthday party and
everybody started talking communism. If you want to look up the
record, not Selective Service, Civil Service. If you want to
look up the record which I recorded there you will find
everything I told you here is repetition. The fact is, my
father-in-law was a leaner towards the Communist party. He
begged us to join. I made this statement then: ``It will be
over your dead body.'' I said, ``I don't believe in it.'' They
always held it against me. I never joined the Communist party.
I did belong to the IWO and I will admit that I went in there
with my eyes wide open.
The Chairman. About this party. Tell us more about that.
Mr. Gisser. If I can recall. I believe I even had a small
son who played the organ. They had an organ. It was just a
birthday party. How I was invited, they just said, ``Come on
over and have some fun.'' The first thing I knew we were
sitting around the table and got to talking. This fellow Bob--
this is going back to 1941. This fellow came down to the house
one night and he sat there from ten o'clock until almost three
o'clock in the morning trying to convince us, my wife and I, to
join the Communist party, and we definitely refused.
The Chairman. Then were the cards issued there?
Mr. Gisser. The cards were issued there. They said, ``What
do you care? Take a card.'' I never gave any money to the
Communist party or Communist cause knowingly.
The Chairman. Do you remember where this house was located?
Mr. Gisser. Well, we went down County Line Road about a
mile; then turned to the right. It was a chicken farm. I didn't
know too much about Lakewood then. That much I do know. It was
a farm. These people had just started to farm. You welcome a
new friend, so we called on them to welcome them into the area.
The Chairman. Who else was at the party?
Mr. Gisser. Oh, God. I wouldn't know that, sir.
The Chairman. Were any of your friends there?
Mr. Gisser. Of my age, no. That is what got us so mad. We
left long before the party broke up. They were all elderly
people.
The Chairman. What time did you leave the party?
Mr. Gisser. I'd say around 10:30 or eleven o'clock.
The Chairman. When was it that you sat up until three
o'clock in the morning?
Mr. Gisser. That I don't know. This was even prior to the
party.
The Chairman. It was prior to the party that he tried to
get you to join?
Mr. Gisser. Yes.
The Chairman. How did you happen to go out and see him on
the other occasion?
Mr. Gisser. We were invited to a birthday party.
The Chairman. Apparently, I am not clear. You were at his
home on two occasions?
Mr. Gisser. On one occasion he was at my home. This
happened in my home that he came down and tried to convince us
to join the Communist party.
The Chairman. Had you known him before that?
Mr. Gisser. No, I had never met him before.
The Chairman. You don't know his last name?
Mr. Gisser. No, I don't, believe me. I am going to look for
it.
The Chairman. You lived in what city?
Mr. Gisser. Lakewood.
The Chairman. And you went out County Line Road you said?
Mr. Gisser. Maybe a mile. It might have been a half mile.
As I say, I didn't know too much about the area at that time.
The Chairman. And you turned right?
Mr. Gisser. From where I live, County Line Road runs
identical to Ocean Avenue. You make a left hand turn on County
Line Road and then make a right and it was in-between.
The Chairman. What direction would you be going on County
Line Road when you leave town?
Mr. Gisser. County Line Road going towards Monmouth County.
The Chairman. You weren't working at the Signal Corps at
that time?
Mr. Gisser. I never worked at the Signal Corps. I worked at
Fort Monmouth. I worked only in the commissary. I never worked
for the Signal Corps. All I ever worked for was the commissary
or quartermaster.
The Chairman. Do you know whether this fellow Bob was
working at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Gisser. No, he never did, as far as I know. He wasn't
there too long until he was drafted. That is all I remember
about him.
The Chairman. Did he have a wife?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, he had a wife and no children.
The Chairman. About how old a man was he?
Mr. Gisser. Roughly, I would say in comparison to my age at
the time, I'd say about two or three years younger than myself.
I am forty-four now, going on forty-four. Roughly, I'd say he
would be twenty-eight or twenty-nine at the time.
The Chairman. Did you give the FBI this information?
Mr. Gisser. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And he invited your wife out to the birthday
party?
Mr. Gisser. That is right.
The Chairman. How many people?
Mr. Gisser. Fifty or sixty.
The Chairman. Was there a general attempt to get them to
join the Communist party?
Mr. Gisser. They tried to get everybody to join the
Communist party.
The Chairman. Besides Bob and his wife, were other people
there Communists?
Mr. Gisser. I couldn't answer that. I don't know whether
they had joined. All I know is they tried like the devil to get
us to join. They gave us two cards and I refused. I said I
wouldn't take them under any circumstances. They shoved them in
my pocket.
The Chairman. Do you know who issued them?
Mr. Gisser. I can't honestly say.
The Chairman. Are you sure you didn't give any money to
anyone there?
Mr. Gisser. For the Communists, to the Communists? Under
what circumstances?
The Chairman. Did you give anybody money?
Mr. Gisser. They may have made a drive for something and I
may have donated something. I won't swear to that. I can't
recall, being honest, sir, whether we did or not.
The Chairman. You can't recall how small or large?
Mr. Gisser. No, it couldn't be large. I have never been in
a position to give a large amount.
The Chairman. Do you know whether you gave anyone any money
at the time you got the card, in that transaction.
Mr. Gisser. What was it supposed to be--fifty cents or a
dollar? Possibly, I wouldn't know, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know whether it was for the card?
Mr. Gisser. That I wouldn't know.
The Chairman. You never worked on any classified work?
Mr. Gisser. No.
The Chairman. In other words, you worked in the commissary
or quartermaster?
Mr. Gisser. Quartermaster, I will say, in the Second World
War. I worked at the quartermaster during the war for almost
three years. I left there to go to work for Eastern Aircraft,
Linden, mainly because I had two children at the time and
wasn't making a living.
The Chairman. What work are you doing now?
Mr. Gisser. Driving a delicatessen truck.
The Chairman. I think that is all. You are excused. I don't
know if we will want you again. If we do, we will notify you.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Gisser. I'm glad I met you, Senator. I hope all the
information I gave you will do some good. Anything I know of, I
will drop a line to the FBI as I promised my word.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER HINDIN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
MONTAGUE CASPER) (RESUMED)
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question now that you
have had a chance to consult with your lawyer. Did you ever
join the Communist party?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were never solicited to join?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. And your wife never joined?
Mr. Hindin. To the best of my knowledge, no, sir.
The Chairman. You never heard her admit that she was a
member of the Communist party?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir. I have not.
The Chairman. Then if anyone says they saw you at various
meetings from 1930 to 1944, they would either be mistaken or
lying?
Mr. Hindin. I'd like to explain I was a member of the IWO,
International Workers Order.
The Chairman. You were an official of it?
Mr. Hindin. No, I say I was a member of the International
Workers Order, which was a fraternal organization, to the best
of my knowledge. It was certainly not classified subversive at
the time I was a member.
The Chairman. When were you a member?
Mr. Hindin. I believe it was sometime between 1937 and
1942. When I got my position with the Signal Corps, I dropped
my membership because I could afford medical payments of my
own. Of course, it may have been construed to be Communist.
The Chairman. Where were you living at the time you joined
the IWO?
Mr. Hindin. Well, it could have been on Kelly Street and it
could be on Sumter Street. I don't remember exactly. It is
quite a ways back.
Mr. Carr. Let me ask you this, Mr. Hindin, you have
consulted with counsel for a few moments. We asked you to
recall if you had been in the Communist party from 1930 through
1944 or any part thereof. Your answer is ``no.'' Now, let me
ask you if it isn't possible you did attend meetings at which
Communist party activities were going on? Is it possible that
you may have been at Communist party meetings without knowing
it?
Mr. Hindin. Well, I attended--I belonged to the electrical
workers' union.
Mr. Carr. Is that the UE?
Mr. Hindin. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Let me explain briefly and it might help you to
come out with what we are trying to get out.
As the senator said, it is no crime to belong to the
Communist party. We have witnesses here who say they never
belonged, deny belonging and then we prove they did belong. We
have even had witnesses here who finally admitted that they
accepted cards and membership in the Communist party. They
first said they didn't have any idea of it. Perhaps you
attended one of these meetings. We would like to get the record
clear as to why it is said you belonged during these years.
Mr. Hindin. I will be glad to explain anything that I can.
I am trying to cooperate with you folks any way I can. As I
said, I was a member of the electrical workers' union. I
attended meetings regularly, which was once a month.
The Chairman. During what years did you attend their
meetings?
Mr. Hindin. I would say about 1936 to approximately--those
are not exact dates. It is almost impossible for me to fix
exact dates.
The Chairman. So you belonged to the IWO and the UE until
you got your job with the Signal Corps?
Mr. Hindin. No, in 1940 I established my own business. I no
longer belonged to the union when I was in business for myself.
The Chairman. Can you tell us when you started to work at
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Hindin. March of 1942.
The Chairman. March of 1942?
Mr. Hindin. Right, sir.
The Chairman. Have you been handling classified material?
Mr. Hindin. Up until 1943, I believe I had access to some
classified material. After 1943 I have handled restricted
material. I believe, from about 1946, I haven't handled any
classified material to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Have you had security clearance to handle
secret and confidential material?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. You didn't get that clearance?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Could you go any place in the laboratory that
you wanted to?
Mr. Hindin. At Coles?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Hindin. Yes, I could go any place.
The Chairman. You were handling secret material?
Mr. Hindin. Yes.
The Chairman. If you wanted to, you could have seen
classified material?
Mr. Hindin. No, that isn't quite so. Classified material
was generally locked up, marked as classified and generally
there was somebody in the offices at all times supposedly
protecting it. I made it my business not to get close to
classified material.
The Chairman. Where were you working when you were
suspended--Coles?
Mr. Hindin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You worked there all the time?
Mr. Hindin. Yes.
The Chairman. How far is that from Evans?
Mr. Hindin. Fifteen miles.
The Chairman. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Hindin. No.
The Chairman. Levitsky?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Barr?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Harold Ducore.
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. You weren't married then, were you?
Mr. Hindin. When was that?
The Chairman. When you got your job?
Mr. Hindin. Oh, yes. I was married.
The Chairman. Did you have any roomers in the house?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you think you might be able to give us any
idea why people would say that you belonged to the Communist
party from 1930 to 1944, that your wife belonged to the party?
Mr. Hindin. Well, I was a good member in the UE, which was
the electrical workers' union. I was a member of it, attended
all the meetings that they had, which was approximately one a
month. I was a member of the IWO.
The Chairman. Did you consider the UE a Communist dominated
union?
Mr. Hindin. I wouldn't say it was Communist dominated at
the time I was in there. I would say there were Communists in
it, yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who are those you thought were Communists?
Mr. Hindin. I couldn't answer that. People I knew would get
up on the floor and make statements which sounded on the
pinkish side. No particular individual I can mention.
The Chairman. Do you know any of the names?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any of them work for the Signal Laboratory?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir, not that I know of.
The Chairman. Did you attend a conference of the Shore
Branch of the Communist party?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you attend a conference of the Shore
Branch of the Communist party on atomic energy?
Mr. Hindin. I didn't know such a branch was in existence
and I never attended.
The Chairman. How do you spell your first name?
Mr. Hindin. A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r.
The Chairman. How do you spell your last name?
Mr. Hindin. H-i-n-d-i-n.
Senator, maybe I could shed a little more light if it would
be of any value--I may as well bring it in. I spent two weeks
at Camp Unity, which I believe is known as a Communist camp.
The reason I spent two weeks there, somebody suggested that
they needed a radio repairman for a radio-phonograph
combination. I did not have to pay for my vacation. That is the
only time I recall having been there.
The Chairman. Where is that located?
Mr. Hindin. I believe it is around Wingdale.
The Chairman. That was what year?
Mr. Hindin. I couldn't tell you, 1936 or 1935. I am not
sure.
The Chairman. Weren't you there again in either 1940 or
1941?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you sure you weren't out there, not even
to do repair work?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir. I was only there one year, as far as I
remember.
The Chairman. Are you sure it couldn't have been 1940?
Mr. Hindin. Definitely not.
The Chairman. Aside from yourself, was everyone out there
Communists?
Mr. Hindin. All I know, all the people were having
lectures. All I was interested in was in handball, swimming.
That is all I did.
The Chairman. This was a Communist camp; they were having
Communist lectures, you did some work and they gave you a week
at the camp?
Mr. Hindin. Two weeks.
The Chairman. Did your wife attend also?
Mr. Hindin. I wasn't married at that time.
The Chairman. Where did you meet your wife?
Mr. Hindin. At a theater party, I think.
The Chairman. What year did you get married?
Mr. Hindin. 1939.
The Chairman. You didn't meet her at this Communist camp?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. I think you have been asked this question.
Did you ever give any classified material to any member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir, definitely not.
The Chairman. You never removed any from the laboratory?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir.
The Chairman. I have nothing further.
Mr. Carr. Mr. Hindin, you understand it is difficult for us
to believe you were not a member of the Communist party when we
have this information in which you yourself confirm that you
were a member of the IWO, member of a union which has been
alleged to be Communist dominated and controlled. You were very
active in that union. You, at one time, spent two weeks at the
Communist party--one of their summer camps, training groups. It
is difficult for us to discount the information which says that
you were a member of the Communist party in view of your
association with these fronts. As you say, the two fronts and
the labor union. You cannot explain the fact that you were
alleged to be a member of the Communist party between 1930 and
1944?
Mr. Hindin. I'd like to make several statements. First of
all, the term very active, I don't think, is quite correct. I
was a member of the union.
Mr. Carr. You said you were active.
Mr. Hindin. Active in the respect that I attended meetings,
paid dues, which is general activity of any member of the
union. As far as IWO is concerned, I have explained that I
never tried to hide the fact that I was a member. I have
admitted that.
Mr. Carr. The only question is: Have you any explanation
for this Communist party allegation?
Mr. Hindin. I haven't, sir, with the exception of perhaps
inference since I was a member of the IWO, they thought I was a
member of the Communist party.
At the time I was a member of the IWO, it was, as far as I
was concerned, a fraternal organization, helping me take care
of medical needs.
Specifically, I'd like to point out something. When I got
my position at Fort Monmouth, I traveled a whole year. I wasn't
home. My wife had a baby and I wasn't home when the baby was
born. The IWO paid the medical expenses. I didn't have the
money to pay it. The moment I was able to pay my own way
through, I was happy to drop it. I wanted to belong to New
Jersey Blue Cross or whatever you would call that.
Mr. Carr. You were an officer in the union?
Mr. Hindin. I was not an officer in the union either. I
meant to bring out also when talking about it, at one meeting I
attended, union meeting, someone said, ``let's go over to this
fellow's house.'' I don't remember the place or names and a
group of fellows were there and they were discussing general
union policy. Now, there was nothing specific put in there that
that was a Communist meeting. Nevertheless, it was a meeting
not part of the union.
The Chairman. Let's assume you had no knowledge regardless
of whether it was or not. You had no knowledge that it might
have been a Communist meeting at the time; in retrospect
looking back now, do you think that could be one of the
meetings you were accused of attending?
Mr. Hindin. I couldn't say, sir.
The Chairman. Would you think, in retrospect, that was a
Communist meeting?
Mr. Hindin. It is hard for me to answer the question. It
was about fifteen years ago. It is a meeting I recall. Perhaps
that was one of the meetings in question. The reason I
mentioned it is because it was an extra meeting; it wasn't a
regular union meeting. One fellow said, ``Let's go over to this
fellow's house and talk things over.''
The Chairman. Do you remember the names of anyone
attending?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir. That was fifteen or sixteen years ago.
The Chairman. Do you remember whose house it was?
Mr. Hindin. I don't remember the section except it was in
Brooklyn.
The Chairman. Do you remember the people who attended the
Communist camp?
Mr. Hindin. No, sir. That was quite a while ago.
The Chairman. Did you attend lectures?
Mr. Hindin. I wasn't interested. I was interested primarily
in swimming----
The Chairman. Did you attend any lectures? Keep in mind
that there were members of the FBI at that camp.
Mr. Hindin. Keeping in mind everything I have, Senator, I
am doing everything I can to help you and myself, naturally.
The Chairman. Did you attend any lectures?
Mr. Hindin. Not that I remember.
The Chairman. And you don't remember the names of anyone
there?
Mr. Hindin. Not that I can remember. Strictly a vacation
was all I was interested in.
The Chairman. May I make a suggestion? Before you come up
before the loyalty hearing, if you want to convince the board
you are being truthful and above board--I am not accusing you
of not being truthful--but I would suggest that you remember
the names of some of those people. The average person won't
believe you lived for two weeks at a Communist camp and can't
give the name of a single person. If you or I go out to a
Communist camp and spend two weeks, we get curious to know who
the people are and get to know the people. It would be
impossible to stay in a camp two weeks without developing
friendships or knowing some people. I am giving you this
advice.
Mr. Hindin. I appreciate it, Senator.
The Chairman. I think that would shed considerable doubt on
the rest of your testimony.
Mr. Hindin. Let me give you an example. I appreciate the
things you say. I know it sounds kind of peculiar. For example,
there was a girl I was playing around with, Florence, and I
don't remember her last name. I wasn't interested in
personalities. I was interested in having a good time. I was a
youngster having a good time.
The Chairman. Was the girl staying at the camp?
Mr. Hindin. She came some place from Connecticut.
The Chairman. Do you know her name?
Mr. Hindin. Florence is the best I can remember.
The Chairman. I don't think we have any more questions.
Mr. Hindin. I will be glad to answer anything you wish,
sir.
The Chairman. I think that is sufficient.
I wish you would consider yourself under subpoena. We may
want you again. We are opening public hearings in about ten
days to try and give a complete picture of the Signal Corps
situation and we will have the witnesses that the staff decides
to call.
Mr. Hindin. All right, sir, anything I can do to help, I
will be very happy to do so.
TESTIMONY OF STANLEY BERINSKY
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in the matter now in hearing will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Berinsky. I do.
The Chairman. Your name is Stanley Berinsky?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you also known as Simon? Is that part of
your name?
Mr. Berinsky. Simon is on my birth certificate but it was
changed two weeks after birth.
The Chairman. Are you presently employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Berinsky. No, I am not.
The Chairman. When were you last employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Berinsky. June of 1952.
The Chairman. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Berinsky. Steam engineer, Stavid, in Plainfield, New
Jersey.
The Chairman. What is your home address?
Mr. Berinsky. 191 Rod Street, Metuchen, New Jersey.
The Chairman. When you left Fort Monmouth in 1952 were you
suspended?
Mr. Berinsky. No, I was not.
The Chairman. Did you resign?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you in effect forced to resign or did
you resign of your own volition?
Mr. Berinsky. I resigned of my own volition.
The Chairman. Were you accused of any improper conduct,
Communist connections prior to your resignation?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. Berinsky. Prior to the time that I left, I was told
that my security clearance had been lifted pending
investigation, and I don't know, the period may be about a year
or more.
The Chairman. In other words, the investigation was pending
for about a year?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. What were you accused of?
Mr. Berinsky. I don't think I was accused of anything in so
many words. I gathered from the discussions I had with the FBI,
the matter concerning the fact my mother had been a member of
the Communist party.
The Chairman. Did they serve a letter of charges on you?
Mr. Berinsky. You mean a formal notice of charges?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Berinsky. I don't recall anything like that.
The Chairman. Your mother's name was Mary, was it?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes, that is correct.
The Chairman. And her last name is?
Mr. Berinsky. B-e-r-i-n-s-k-y.
Mr. Carr. Is she also known as Mona?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Was she a member of the party?
Mr. Berinsky. I don't know.
The Chairman. How long since you lived with her?
Mr. Berinsky. I lived with her, since--oh, it would be 1940
when I went away to college.
The Chairman. In other words, you lived at your mother's
home until you went to college?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Your mother was a member of the Communist party
for fifteen years and you don't know it?
Mr. Berinsky. I don't know.
Mr. Carr. Secretary of the community branch in your town
and you didn't know?
Mr. Berinsky. I knew she belonged to various organizations.
What they were----
Mr. Carr. How old were you when you left home?
Mr. Berinsky. Seventeen in 1940. I went away to college.
Mr. Carr. Even now you don't know that she is?
Mr. Berinsky. I know now she is not. She told me she had
resigned because of me mainly.
Mr. Carr. She has resigned from the Communist party?
Mr. Berinsky. She told me she had resigned.
The Chairman. Let's get this straight. I know it is unusual
to appear before a committee. So many witnesses get nervous.
You just got through telling us you did not know she was a
Communist; now you tell us she resigned from the Communist
party? As of when?
Mr. Berinsky. I didn't know this until the security
suspension came up at Fort Monmouth.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Berinsky. That was in 1952.
The Chairman. Then did your mother come over and tell you
she had resigned?
Mr. Berinsky. I told her what happened. At that time she
told me she had been out for several years.
The Chairman. You went to your mother's home after the
security hearing?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. And up to that time you had no knowledge of
any kind that she was a Communist?
Mr. Berinsky. No, sir.
The Chairman. You went to see her sometime in 1952?
Mr. Berinsky. Probably earlier because this thing started
in 1951. Right after they first spoke to me. The reason I went,
I directed the people who spoke to me to see her personally, so
I told her about that coming up.
The Chairman. You told her they were coming? In other
words, you knew the FBI had been to see your mother. You told
them to go there. You told the FBI to go see your mother. Did
you then ask your mother, ``Are you a Communist?''
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Well, did you ever ask her if she was a
Communist?
Mr. Berinsky. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did the FBI ask you if she was a Communist?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes, I believe they did.
The Chairman. What did you tell them?
Mr. Berinsky. I said I didn't know.
The Chairman. When you went to see her, weren't you
curious? If somebody told me my mother was a Communist, I'd get
on the phone and say, ``Mother is this true?''
Mr. Berinsky. We discussed the thing and she brought up the
fact that she had resigned.
The Chairman. When you discussed it, did you ask her if she
had been a Communist?
Mr. Berinsky. Not directly in so many words.
The Chairman. Did she tell you how long she had been a
member of the party?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. You didn't ask her?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did she tell you when she resigned?
Mr. Berinsky. Probably did. I am trying to recall. 1945 or
1946, something in that order.
The Chairman. Did she tell you why she resigned?
Mr. Berinsky. It seems to me she probably did it because I
held a government job and she didn't want to jeopardize my
position.
The Chairman. In other words, it wasn't because she felt
differently about the Communist party, but because she didn't
want to jeopardize your position?
Mr. Berinsky. Probably.
The Chairman. Was she still a Communist at heart in 1952?
Mr. Berinsky. Well, I don't know how you define that.
The Chairman. Do you think she was a Communist, using your
own definition of communism?
Mr. Berinsky. I guess my own definition is one who is a
member of the party. No.
The Chairman. Let's say one who was a member and dropped
out and is still loyal to the party. Taking that as a
definition, would you say she is still a Communist?
Mr. Berinsky. Do you mean in an active sense?
The Chairman. Loyal in her mind.
Mr. Berinsky. That is hard to say.
The Chairman. Is she still living?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you ever asked her whether she still
believes in communism?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. How often did you get home?
Mr. Berinsky. Well, once a week or every two weeks,
something like that.
The Chairman. You have got no thought one way or the other
as to whether she is still loyal to the Communist party?
Mr. Berinsky. No, it is something we don't discuss. We
never have discussed it.
Mr. Carr. There is no doubt in your mind that she was a
Communist in the sense that she was a member of the Communist
party, active in it, and no doubt in your mind that she retains
a sympathy towards the Communist party?
Mr. Berinsky. That is probably true.
Mr. Carr. She is still your mother and you are finding it
difficult to say this, but she is still sympathetic towards the
Communist party. She dropped out merely to make it easier for
you?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
Mr. Carr. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Mr. Berinsky. None.
Mr. Carr. Is your dad living?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Where is he working?
Mr. Berinsky. Trenton, New Jersey. He is a wholesale meat
dealer.
Mr. Carr. He is not doing any government work?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
Mr. Carr. Has he ever done any government work?
M. Berinsky. No.
Mr. Carr. Is your mother working?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
Mr. Carr. Has she ever done government work?
Mr. Berinsky. No, not outside army service, being on active
duty with the army. I think she was there about a year or a
little more.
Mr. Carr. What year would that be?
Mr. Berinsky. 1945.
Mr. Carr. What kind of work was she doing in the army?
Mr. Berinsky. To my knowledge she was at Fort Monmouth and
part of the time with the Quartermaster Corps, secretarial work
and base hospital receptionist.
The Chairman. She was with the Signal Corps at Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Berinsky. For a while.
The Chairman. Then I missed the duties?
Mr. Berinsky. I know she was working in the quartermaster
department and also as a receptionist in the base hospital.
That is what she told me.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss communism with your
mother?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did she ever urge you to join the party?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. You had no knowledge, no suspicion she was a
member of the Communist party until 1951 or 1952?
Mr. Berinsky. That is right. When she told me she had
resigned.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend a Communist meeting?
Mr. Berinsky. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. I will re-ask the question. Have you attended
Communist party meetings?
Mr. Berinsky. If I did attend, I didn't know it was a
Communist party meeting. The only thing I can think of, perhaps
when I was a youngster my mother dragged me down to some
organization or something in town and if that would be
considered a Communist meeting, I was there sometime before the
age of seventeen.
The Chairman. Do you know whether your mother took you to
Communist meetings?
Mr. Berinsky. [No answer.]
The Chairman. In retrospect, do you think any of those
meetings were Communist meetings?
Mr. Berinsky. Some of those organizations may have been
those organizations that would be Communistic now.
The Chairman. Not Communistic meetings of the Communist
party, Communist cell meetings.
Just to refresh your recollection, weren't there cell
meetings in your home at which you were present? Were you
present?
Mr. Berinsky. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. And you say at this time you can't think of a
single Communist meeting you attended?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Berinsky. MIT.
The Chairman. How many years?
Mr. Berinsky. Four years interrupted with three and a half
years of service.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Young Communist League?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to join?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. You say you never joined the Communist party?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever give any money to the Communist
party?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. You were never solicited to join?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. When did you first work at the Signal Corps
Laboratory?
Mr. Berinsky. I started in July of 1948, a month after I
got out of college.
The Chairman. And you had access to classified material?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. During the time you were working in the
Signal Corps Laboratories, did you visit your mother regularly?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes, or she visited us.
The Chairman. Are you married now?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. You say you started working for the Signal
Corps in 1948?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Where were you working in 1946?
Mr. Berinsky. In 1946 I was still in service until the end
of the year, November. I re-entered MIT in January of 1947, the
end of that term.
The Chairman. When did you graduate?
Mr. Berinsky. I graduated in June of 1948.
The Chairman. You went directly from MIT to the job at Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. What kind of work were you doing in the
service?
Mr. Berinsky. In service I was radio officer in charge of
fixing station radio equipment, communication work.
The Chairman. You went in the army what year?
Mr. Berinsky. Active duty was 1943, I believe, March of
1943.
The Chairman. And do you call yourself an engineer now,
electrical engineer?
Mr. Berinsky. Right.
The Chairman. You had access to classified material while
at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove classified material from
the post itself?
Mr. Berinsky. No
The Chairman. Did you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes, he was my section chief when I came
there.
The Chairman. Did you ever have any reason to believe he
was a Communist or espionage agent?
Mr. Berinsky. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Did you know Levitsky?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did you know Mr. Rosenberg?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. You didn't know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did you know Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes, he was my boss at the time I left.
The Chairman. You never considered him a Communist?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did you know a man named Okun? Jack Okun?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever give any classified material to
Coleman?
Mr. Berinsky. Aaron Coleman?
The Chairman. Yes. Did you ever give classified material to
him?
Mr. Berinsky. We both had access to it. It was just sitting
in the files. Just in the course of our business.
The Chairman. In other words, he had access to the same
material you could get, so there would be no occasion?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever give any classified material to
anyone not connected with the signal laboratory?
Mr. Berinsky. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever suspect that there might be
Communists working in the Signal Corps?
Mr. Berinsky. No. I would have no reason to suspect it.
The Chairman. In other words, you thought all the people
were good loyal Americans and there were no Communists there?
Mr. Berinsky. That is right, except I was aware lots of
people were having their security clearances suspended for
different reasons.
The Chairman. You felt they were good loyal people and not
Communists?
Mr. Berinsky. I didn't know the reason they were suspended.
Mr. Carr. What is your mother's present address?
Mr. Berinsky. 1494 Stevenson Avenue in Trenton.
Mr. Carr. Does she have a telephone?
Mr. Berinsky. Yes.
Mr. Carr. What is that?
Mr. Berinsky. 26009.
The Chairman. That is all.
I might ask you this so it will be in the record. Did you
know that in 1946 your mother's Communist party card was
numbered 69604?
Mr. Berinsky. No, I didn't know that at all.
The Chairman. That is all. You will consider yourself under
subpoena. We will want you back later.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH SCHUTZ
The Chairman. In the matter now in hearing, do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Schutz. I do.
The Chairman. Your name is Schutz?
Mr. Schutz. Ralph Schutz. S-c-h-u-t-z, 1892 Evers Street.
The Chairman. And where are you employed?
Mr. Schutz. Arma Engineering, Incorporated.
The Chairman. Are you acquainted with Mr. Gunnar Boye?
Mr. Schutz. Yes, I am.
The Chairman. Does he work with you?
Mr. Schutz. He works in the same department as I do.
The Chairman. Were your formally acquainted with Mr. David
Greenglass?
Mr. Schutz. Yes.
The Chairman. He worked in the same department?
Mr. Schutz. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, were you closely associated with
Greenglass?
Mr. Schutz. I knew him at work as a working acquaintance
and I went out with him once or twice and I believe I picked
him up once or twice to take him to work. We were coming from
New York. I would say he came over to my house once.
The Chairman. What type of work do you do at the Arma
Corporation?
Mr. Schutz. Machinist.
The Chairman. Are you cleared to work on classified
material?
Mr. Schutz. You mean am I worked with classified material?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Schutz. Well, some of the prints have on them
``restricted.''
The Chairman. Have you ever seen any classification higher
than restricted--I should say other than restricted?
Mr. Schutz. Off-hand, I don't think so.
The Chairman. You worked on parts rather than the full
product?
Mr. Schutz. That is right. I make parts for instruments.
The Chairman. Do you know what instruments?
Mr. Schutz. No, I only make parts for them.
The Chairman. You formerly worked at Reeves?
Mr. Schutz. That is right.
The Chairman. What did you do there?
Mr. Schutz. I made parts, bread board models.
The Chairman. Was that secret material?
Mr. Schutz. Not to my knowledge. I never had a blueprint or
anything.
The Chairman. Getting back to Arma Engineering Corporation,
is the work you are doing for the U.S. government?
Mr. Schutz. I would say so, yes.
The Chairman. Is it for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Schutz. I don't think so. I really don't know.
The Chairman. Do you know what type of instruments it is
for?
Mr. Schutz. I don't follow that. What do you mean by what
type of instruments?
The Chairman. You don't make the complete instrument. Do
you know what type instruments the parts you are making are
for?
Mr. Schutz. No.
The Chairman. Were you ever a member of the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Schutz. I was not
The Chairman. Were you ever asked to join the Young
Communist League?
Mr. Schutz. No.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the AYD, American Youth
for Democracy?
Mr. Schutz. I never even heard of it.
The Chairman. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Schutz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Why would it be reported that you had
associated with Communists?
Mr. Schutz. To my knowledge, if a man is a Communist, I
don't know about that. As far as I know, all the people I have
associated with were not Communists, at least they have never
told me so.
The Chairman. You don't know of anybody who could be a
Communist that you are associated with now?
Mr. Schutz. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. You know Greenglass, did you suspect him of
being a Communist?
Mr. Schutz. I did not know that.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Schutz. No, I did not
The Chairman. Did you ever meet Mrs. Rosenberg?
Mr. Schutz. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet Mrs. Greenglass?
Mr. Schutz. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. Were you ever in their home?
Mr. Schutz. Yes, I was.
The Chairman. How frequently did you visit with them?
Mr. Schutz. Maybe twice perhaps, at the most.
The Chairman. In what year would that be?
Mr. Schutz. That was just before Mr. Greenglass was picked
up as being a spy.
The Chairman. Did he ever at any time ask you to procure
anything for him?
Mr. Schutz. He did not.
The Chairman. Your association with him was that of fellow
worker. You worked in the same shop, in the same section. You
occasionally rode back and forth to work with him. Did you eat
lunch with him?
Mr. Schutz. In the department we would eat lunch together.
The Chairman. You occasionally visited his home?
Mr. Schutz. Twice I think.
The Chairman. Did he visit your home?
Mr. Schutz. Once I believe.
The Chairman. What was the purpose of those visits?
Mr. Schutz. Well, I was moving and I asked him if he would
help me move. That was the only time I could recall he had ever
been over at my house.
The Chairman. At the time you were associated with him were
you working on classified material?
Mr. Schutz. I am sorry. I wouldn't recall that now.
The Chairman. Well, it was only 1949.
Mr. Schutz. I would say, being Arma is regular governmental
work to the point it would probably be classified.
The Chairman. You say you are not now a member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Schutz. I said I never was a member of the Communist
party.
The Chairman. What was the answer. Have you ever been a
member of the Communist party?
Mr. Schutz. I have not.
The Chairman. Have you ever been a member of any
organization declared to be a Communist front?
Mr. Schutz. Not to my knowledge. I never belonged to any
organizations.
The Chairman. You have never belonged to any organizations
at all?
Mr. Schutz. Not that I recall.
The Chairman. Do you belong to any clubs or societies now?
Mr. Schutz. I don't belong to any clubs or societies now.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to any?
Mr. Schutz. No. I would say no.
The Chairman. You never belonged to any neighborhood clubs
or anything like that?
Mr. Schutz. I went down to the ALP Club once. That is about
all. I think I went there. I went down as far as that went.
That was all.
The Chairman. Did you then associate yourself with the ALP?
Mr. Schutz. No.
The Chairman. Did you register a vote with the ALP?
Mr. Schutz. I believe I did at the time Mr. Wallace was
running.
The Chairman. Is that the only time you registered to vote
with the American Labor party?
Mr. Schutz. That is correct.
[Off-record discussion.]
The Chairman. That is the only connection you have had with
ALP was during the 1948 elections you voted with the ALP for
Wallace?
Mr. Schutz. To my knowledge, yes.
The Chairman. You can say that as a fact, can't you?
Mr. Schutz. I can say to the extent, as far as I am
concerned, I had had no connection.
The Chairman. Were you ever a member of the Young
Progressives?
Mr. Schutz. No, I was not.
The Chairman. That will be all and I thank you very much.
[The following telegram was received during the testimony
of Mr. Schutz. The chairman directed that it be copied into the
record at this point.]
NEW YORK N.Y. 330P Nov 5, 1953
SENATOR JOSEPH MCCARTHY, CHAIRMAN:
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS FEDERAL COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE NYK
HAVE JUST BEEN ADVISED AT 3:10 P.M. THAT ERNEST PATAKI HAS BEEN
SERVED WITH A SUBPOENA RETURNABLE AT 4:00 THIS AFTERNOON. I AM
AUTHORIZED BY MR. PATAKI TO STATE THAT THE TIME IS INSUFFICIENT
TO PERMIT HIM TO MAKE THE NECESSARY PERSONAL ARRANGEMENTS AND
TO PERMIT HIM TO CONSULT COUNSEL. IF I AM TO REPRESENT PATAKI I
COULD NOT DO SO UNTIL MONDAY BECAUSE, AMONG OTHER THINGS, MY
PERSONAL HEALTH WILL NOT PERMIT IT. THE CONDITION OF MY HEALTH
INCIDENTALLY IS DUE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY TO THE FACT THAT I WAS
COMPELLED TO ATTEND A NIGHT SESSION BEFORE YOUR COMMITTEE LAST
NIGHT AFTER HAVING WAITED IN THE ANTEROOM OF THE COMMITTEE ALL
DAY. IF YOU WISH PATAKI TO APPEAR ON MONDAY HE WILL DO SO
PROVIDED I RECEIVE NOTICE OF YOUR DESIRE BEFORE NOON TOMORROW.
VICTOR RABINOWITZ, 76 BEAVER STREET NY 5
TESTIMONY OF HENRY SHOIKET (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, SIDNEY
L. KATZ)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in the matter now in hearing will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Shoiket. I do.
The Chairman. Your name is Henry Shoiket, S-h-o-i-k-e-t?
Mr. Shoiket. Yes.
The Chairman. What is your present address?
Mr. Shoiket. 337 East 16th Street, Brooklyn, New York.
The Chairman. Has counsel identified himself?
Mr. Katz. Sidney Katz, 20 Broad Street, New York 5.
The Chairman. Any telephone number?
Mr. Katz. Whitehall 42888.
The Chairman. Mr. Shoiket, where are you presently
employed?
Mr. Shoiket. At Lawson Machinery Corporation.
The Chairman. What is the address of that?
Mr. Shoiket. 36 West 33rd Street, Manhattan.
The Chairman. Is this company doing any work for the
government?
Mr. Shoiket. No. They are manufacturers of paper cutting
machinery.
The Chairman. It may be that they have sold machinery to
the government, I don't know, but they make, sell and build
paper cutting machines.
The Chairman. Is there any classified work?
Mr. Shoiket. None whatsoever.
The Chairman. And your schooling, where did you go to
college?
Mr. Shoiket. College of the City of New York.
The Chairman. What year did you graduate?
Mr. Shoiket. I graduated in 1939.
The Chairman. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Shoiket. He went to school at the same time as I did.
The Chairman. How well did you know him?
Mr. Shoiket. I will refuse to answer that on the grounds of
possible self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Did he ever take you to a Young Communist
League meeting?
Mr. Shoiket. I will refuse to answer this.
The Chairman. On the same ground?
Mr. Shoiket. Also on the grounds of the First Amendment, in
that I do not believe you should be inquiring into my political
beliefs.
The Chairman. Do they do government work--the company you
work for?
Mr. Shoiket. No.
The Chairman. Are you quite sure of that?
Mr. Shoiket. I believe they have sold one or two paper
cutting machines to the Government Printing Office or something
like that. This is merely a matter of sales.
The Chairman. Have you ever had any connection with the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Shoiket. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever worked for the government?
Mr. Shoiket. Yes, I worked for the navy, civilian engineer,
Brooklyn, first, then I worked for Mare Island Navy Yard in
California.
The Chairman. When did you start working for the navy in
California?
Mr. Shoiket. 1940, I believe.
The Chairman. How long did you work for them?
Mr. Shoiket. Seven years.
The Chairman. What type of work?
Mr. Shoiket. Engineer.
The Chairman. Handling what type of work?
Mr. Shoiket. Electrical work. I was involved in elimination
of vibration, largely mechanical work, on diesel engines and
ship structures.
The Chairman. Was any of your work of a classified nature?
Mr. Shoiket. I can't remember that any was but there may
have been something.
The Chairman. Did you at times work on a project of such a
nature that the general public would not be entitled to know
what you were doing?
Mr. Shoiket. Certainly, all work, navy yard work, is of
restricted nature. That is obvious.
The Chairman. Then you worked there until 1947?
Mr. Shoiket. That is right.
The Chairman. Where did you go then?
Mr. Shoiket. I worked at Boeing Aircraft Company.
The Chairman. How long did you work for them?
Mr. Shoiket. Until 1951, I think it was. Three and a half
years.
The Chairman. What type of work were you doing at Boeing?
Mr. Shoiket. Engineer in vibration.
The Chairman. Were you working on new designs, advances in
aircraftery?
Mr. Shoiket. Well, I had the speciality of vibration
elimination and I was called on for people who needed
vibration--designers who had vibration problems consulted with
me.
The Chairman. You were working on the new designs for
fighter ships?
Mr. Shoiket. Boeing does not make fighters.
The Chairman. New jets?
Mr. Shoiket. That is correct.
The Chairman. And then where did you go after 1951?
Mr. Shoiket. I returned to New York City and I worked for
a--you are asking me where I worked?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Shoiket. I worked for a commercial testing laboratory
called Sam Tour and Company.
The Chairman. What is the address of that?
Mr. Shoiket. 44 Trinity Place.
The Chairman. Were you doing any work for the government
then?
Mr. Shoiket. Not directly. I was not doing any work for the
government directly. I believe there may have been some
projects. They were doing some sub-contract work.
The Chairman. How long did you work for the Sam Tour
Company?
Mr. Shoiket. Approximately a year and a half, something of
that sort.
The Chairman. That would bring you up to 1953?
Mr. Shoiket. At the beginning of 1953 or the end of 1952.
The Chairman. Then from there you went over to the present
company?
Mr. Shoiket. With a brief period of sort of working for
myself.
The Chairman. Were you discharged from the navy, Boeing
Aircraft or Sam Tour?
Mr. Shoiket. I was, to be exact, left the navy of my own
volition. I was asked to resign from Boeing.
The Chairman. Why were you asked to resign?
Mr. Shoiket. Because I was questioned by FBI agents who
then recommended to Boeing I be asked to resign. I was fired at
Sam Tours.
The Chairman. For what reason?
Mr. Shoiket. For similar reasons.
The Chairman. And the navy, were you under any pressure of
claims that you were a security risk or claims that you were a
Communist?
Mr. Shoiket. None at all.
The Chairman. Is there anything of a remotely secret or
confidential nature about that?
Mr. Shoiket. Not in the least.
The Chairman. The general public can walk in?
Mr. Shoiket. Anyone can.
The Chairman. I don't know if you were asked this question.
Do you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Shoiket. I said he went to school at the same time I
did.
The Chairman. You knew David Greenglass?
Mr. Shoiket. No.
The Chairman. You are sure of that?
Mr. Shoiket. As far as my memory serves me, I do not.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Communist party?.
Mr. Shoiket. I will not answer questions of a political
nature.
The Chairman. Are you claiming the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Shoiket. Fifth Amendment. Both the First and the Fifth
Amendments.
The Chairman. The first wouldn't be effective.
Did you ever see Rosenberg after you left school?
Mr. Shoiket. I will not answer this question on the grounds
of remote possible self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Did you ever engage in espionage?
Mr. Shoiket. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever give information of a classified
nature to a Communist?
Mr. Shoiket. I never gave information of a classified
nature to anyone. That would include anyone.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss any of the classified
work you were doing with a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Shoiket. I never discussed with anyone any classified
work, whom I knew to be a member of the Communist party.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss any classified work with
anyone whom you had any reason to believe might be a member of
the Communist party?
You may want to discuss this with your counsel first, I
don't know. I want you to know, your name wasn't picked out of
a hat. We do have a fairly complete report on some of your
activities, so I am not anxious to run up the list of perjury
cases I have got to submit to the attorney general.
Mr. Shoiket. May I answer it this way. I never discussed
work of a classified nature with anyone except those involved
in the same work, at the same place, with whom I was authorized
and told to discuss those questions by superiors. I never
inquired into the political beliefs of those with whom I have
been working.
The Chairman. That is not sufficient. I want to know
whether or not you ever discussed work of a classified nature
with anyone whom you had reason to believe might be a member of
the Communist party. Either on the job or off the job, either
working with you or not working with you?
Mr. Shoiket. Sir, upon advice of counsel, I will say ``no''
because I have no knowledge of what your investigations are or
what they show.
Mr. Katz. May I interrupt?
[Witness conferred with counsel.]
Mr. Shoiket. Gentlemen, excuse me. This was a gross error.
Withdraw that please. I will refuse to answer the question for
what I started to explain, the Fifth Amendment, because I have
no----
The Chairman. I will order you to answer the question
because you have waived the privilege of the Fifth Amendment
when you said you did not engage in espionage at any time. You
said you did not give any material to Communists outside. You
no longer have the Fifth Amendment as far as that area is
concerned. You have waived it and I order you to answer that
question. If you refuse, obviously the case will be submitted
for contempt.
Mr. Shoiket. I will say it the same way. I still refuse to
answer.
The Chairman. You still refuse to answer?
Mr. Shoiket. I still refuse to answer.
The Chairman. So there can be no question of a
misunderstanding at a subsequent date, I will restate it and
you can get a chance to refuse again if you want to.
While you were working for the U.S. government, handling
classified material, did you ever discuss any of that material
or any of the classified work which you were doing with anyone
whom you knew to be a member of the Communist party; you
thought to be a member of the Communist party; or had valid
reason to believe was a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Shoiket. I will refuse to answer this question on the
grounds of possible self-incrimination.
The Chairman. What grounds?
Mr. Shoiket. Fifth Amendment, possible self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Have the record show the chair ordered the
witness to answer the question for the reason that he has
waived the Fifth Amendment privilege by his answer to previous
questions.
I assume you still refuse to answer?
Mr. Shoiket. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss classified material with
Julius Rosenberg?
[Witness consulted with Counsel.]
Mr. Shoiket. Sir, I have told you before that I discussed
with no one unauthorized and Julius Rosenberg is included. I
did not discuss classified information with Julius Rosenberg.
The Chairman. Did you discuss classified information with
William Perl?
Mr. Shoiket. I did not discuss classified information with
William Perl.
The Chairman. Did you ever associate with anyone whom you
knew or had reason to believe was engaged in espionage?
Mr. Shoiket. No. Definitely.
The Chairman. Did you ever associate with anyone you later
discovered had been engaged in espionage?
Mr. Shoiket. I don't know who has been discovered.
The Chairman. Did you ever associate with anyone other than
Julius Rosenberg at any time whom you later learned was accused
of espionage by an official agency of the U.S. government?
Mr. Shoiket. Yes. I knew Morton Sobell when at City
College.
The Chairman. Did you see him after he left City College?
Mr. Shoiket. I will refuse to answer that question on the
grounds of possible self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Did you ever engage in any illegal activities
in connection with any association with Sobell at any time?
Mr. Shoiket. No.
The Chairman. The answer is ``no.''
Mr. Shoiket. The answer is ``no.''
The Chairman. Then you will be ordered to answer that, if
you knew him after he left City College and you engaged in no
illegal activities in connection with him, the answer can in no
way incriminate you.
You will be ordered to answer the previous question about
any contacts with Sobell after he left City College for the
reason, if as you state, you engaged in no illegal activities
in connection with your association with Sobell, you are not
entitled to any Fifth Amendment privilege because you could not
possibly incriminate yourself. Therefore, you are ordered to
answer.
Mr. Shoiket. I have been advised to make a formal request
that the previous answer be withdrawn and that I may instead
refuse to answer on the basis of the Fifth Amendment possible
self-incrimination.
The Chairman. Was the previous answer untrue. If it was a
truthful answer you can't withdraw it.
When were you subpoenaed?
Mr. Shoiket. Day before yesterday.
The Chairman. You haven't had much chance to talk to your
lawyer. This is a very serious matter--being involved in
contempt citation. I think you are entitled to sufficient time
to go over and make your decision.
Let's put it this way. If you want to--I intend to go into
detail as to your waiver as to espionage and your waiver as to
Sobell and question you at some length. The same problem will
come up each time I ask the question. I think it is only fair
to you, and if you want to, I will give you an adjournment.
The only trouble is, I doubt if we will be having hearings
in New York and it will mean coming to Washington.
Mr. Shoiket. It will be a hardship coming down to
Washington.
The Chairman. Let's skip this question for the time being.
We will see what we can do about that.
Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Shoiket. I don't know. I have read the name in the
newspapers. I believe he was at City College when I was. I
don't know.
The Chairman. Let's say on this other question, the order
that he answer will stand. He will not be required to answer at
this moment. Discuss this with your lawyer and if you decide
that you refuse to answer, let us know by letter with your
signature, that you refuse to answer. If you decide to answer,
then give us all of your association, contacts with Sobell,
since he left City College and you will not have to come to
Washington. That will save you the trouble of coming to
Washington.
I am all through, Frank. I have no further question.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever a member of the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Carr. On the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Shoiket. First and Fifth Amendments.
The Chairman. How about as of today?
Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
[Whereupon the hearing adjourned at five o'clock.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Albert Socol (1918-1984) testified
publicly on December 14; and Ernest Pataki (1915-1998) on
December 15, 1953. Rear Admiral Edward Culligan Forsyth (1900-
1990), Samuel Snyder, Joseph K. Crevisky, Ignatius Giardina
(1902-1982), and Leon Schnee-(1907-1994), did not testify in
public session.]
----------
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 16, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, N.Y.
The subcommittee met at 2:30 p.m., pursuant to recess, in
room 36 of the Federal Building, Foley Square, New York,
Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman) presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel; C. George
Anastos, assistant counsel, Francis P. Carr, staff director;
Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel; and Robert Jones,
executive assistant to Senator Potter.
The Chairman. We will proceed.
I will ask you to raise your right hand. In this matter now
in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly swear that you
will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Adm. Forsyth. I do.
TESTIMONY OF REAR ADMIRAL EDWARD CULLIGAN FORSYTH
The Chairman. May I say first I very much appreciate your
taking the time off to come all of the way down here to be of
help in what we consider an extremely important matter, and
apparently you do, too, or you would not be here.
Adm. Forsyth. I do, indeed, and I am very pleased to be
here, in fact, and I want to be of every possible assistance to
your committee and to you personally that I can. As you know,
in accordance with navy regulations, I am required to ascertain
that this is an executive session, and I am required to
ascertain definitely that everyone here is cleared to receive
classified information.
The Chairman. I will identify all of the people here,
Admiral. They are all members of the staff, and all have been
cleared.
Adm. Forsyth. I am also required to respectfully request,
Senator, that nothing that I say will be printed, either in
substance or in word, in the Congressional Record or in any
other material that is available for public inspection.
The Chairman. Let me say this, Admiral, with regard to
abiding by your wishes on this. Normally we give the press a
resume of the testimony without giving the name of the witness
or any information about him which will identify him.
The reason we have done that is this: Ordinarily you have a
representative of another senator here, and so on, and we have
found in the past that newsmen contact the administrative
assistant, and representatives of Karl Mundt, and members of
the staff, and sooner or later they get a piece of evidence
from this man, and a piece of evidence from this man, and we
get a completely distorted picture of the hearings. To avoid
that, and to avoid the newsmen constantly contacting the staff,
we have been following a practice, after a hearing, of giving a
resume--as I say, without identifying the witness.
Now, if you think that will violate the rules under which
you are here, we will refrain from doing that in this case.
Adm. Forsyth. Senator, you have as much discretion as I
have in this matter, sir, and I just have to make the request,
as I am still bound by navy regulations, as you realize, sir.
The Chairman. Let me say this to you, that nothing at all
will in any way disclose the fact that you testified on any
specific matter, and if we give the press any resume, they will
have no idea of who testified.
Adm. Forsyth. I hope you realize, Senator, that this is not
personal. I am required to do it.
The Chairman. I was in the military for a while, and I know
that a good military man observes all of the rules and
regulations. Sometimes we do that even though we do not approve
of it.
Adm. Forsyth. That is not within my jurisdiction to approve
or disapprove, sir.
Mr. Anastos. Admiral, will you state your full name?
Adm. Forsyth. Edward Culligan Forsyth, Rear Admiral,
Retired, U.S. Navy.
Mr. Anastos. How do you spell the last name?
Adm. Forsyth. F-o-r-s-y-t-h.
Mr. Anastos. What is your present address, please?
Adm. Forsyth. Monterey Peninsula Country Club, Pebble
Beach, California.
Mr. Anastos. Admiral, when were you first assigned to duty
at Schenectady, New York?
Adm. Forsyth. I reported for duty as inspector of
machinery, and navy inspector of ordnance, General Electric
Company, Schenectady, New York, on 15 May 1949.
Mr. Anastos. And how long were you on duty there?
Adm. Forsyth. Until 30 June 1953, at which date I retired
from active duty in the navy.
Mr. Anastos. Can you very briefly state what your duties
were there?
Adm. Forsyth. Yes. I was in general charge of all navy
business with the General Electric Company at their plants in
Schenectady and Pittsfield, which came under my immediate
jurisdiction, and I also had certain other duties generally
throughout the whole General Electric Company; specifically,
armed services planning and procurement officer as the
mobilization planning function, which extended throughout the
whole organization of the General Electric Company. That is for
all armed services and not just the navy, but all armed
services, and that included the Atomic Energy Commission and
various other branches of the government.
The Chairman. You said that your job was in connection with
all armed services. Did that have to do with security?
Adm. Forsyth. Then in connection with security, I of course
had charge of security matters directly for the navy, and I was
also later, not on the date of reporting, designated to
coordinate all security matters for all services in the General
Electric plants under my immediate supervision, namely,
Schenectady and Pittsfield. That did not, however, include, and
in fact it specifically excluded, the Knolls atomic power
laboratory.
Mr. Anastos. When you first reported for duty, Admiral, how
did you find security conditions at the General Electric plant
in Schenectady?
The Chairman. Admiral, you have made a number of notes over
the weekend. Instead of our asking you specific questions, we
will ask you to just run over your notes and give us all of the
general information you can.
Adm. Forsyth. Yes, sir.
Item 1. I was asked for a resume of the security situation
in the General Electric Company as I found it and as it
developed and as I left it.
Specifically, when I went there in the beginning, 15 May
1949, I considered that security was practically nonexistent.
The officer whom I relieved, for example, took me to the
Aeronautics and Ordnance Systems Division, in which practically
all of the work was classified in one degree or another, and
said, ``Now, everybody in here is supposed to have a badge
which lets them in, but I want you to count the number of
people around here that you see without badges.''
Well, I should say approximately 50 percent were without
badges. He was very displeased with that situation. We went
then further to the office of Mr. H. V. Erben, who at that time
was not operating that division but above the operations of
that division, and he promised to do a lot about it, but
pointed out that he couldn't do it all alone. I found out what
he meant by that when I went back to my office, and I found
sitting in a corner of a very stuffy little office a new
officer, relatively new, and he had been there about a month,
who was an ex-warrant carpenter in the navy--an excellent man,
as far as his talents were concerned, but not particularly
suited for that. But he had been designated as security
officer. He had on hand some fifteen hundred applications for
personnel clearances. That is as I remember the number; it
might be a little one way or the other. They were in stacks on
his desk and in chairs alongside his desk, and the office in
general was crowded and confused. And I wondered how the
General Electric Company could be expected to have cleared
people when, frankly, a lot of the trouble was right at home.
Mr. Anastos. What was his name?
Adm. Forsyth. McDonough and he is now long since retired, I
believe. I think so; I am not too sure.
In any event, Mr. McDonough, M-c-D-o-n-o-u-g-h--John
Aloysius McDonough--is a man close to sixty years old. I took
it upon myself to clear that situation up, and I got him a
proper office and I got him some help, and we turned on to the
clearances and we got the clearances pretty well stable.
I also found, among other things, that there was no badge
system generally applying throughout the plant. Anyone could
walk in and out as they pleased, and the only requirement for
badges was, they were supposed to have them in order to get
into these classified areas. That wasn't enforced, as it was
plain to be seen.
Mr. Anastos. May I interrupt again, please? Do I understand
conditions to be somewhat as follows: that you did need a badge
to enter the area itself, and you didn't need a badge to enter
the A & O plant itself, the building?
Adm. Forsyth. A badge was required on the books, that is to
say, the regulations required badges; and I should say 50
percent of the people that I saw in there that day that Captain
Ward took me over, had no badges on them. They might have had
them in their pockets, but that did no good. So that was one
situation.
I did, after working with Mr. Erben, who was most helpful,
get a badge system instituted there, and every person that
enters the gate now has to have a badge of one kind or another.
The badges were set up with a color system to indicate the
clearance of the holder. They were picture-type badges, sealed
in by being laminated; and, as badges, were pretty good. But,
at first in any event, we had a terrific epidemic of lost
badges, and although I asked repeatedly for disciplinary action
in case of lost badges, it was very difficult to get. Finally,
they made the people who lost the badges pay fifty cents for a
new one, which wasn't too much.
In any event, no badge system is perfect. These little
pictures don't mean anything.
The Chairman. If there are a lot of lost badges, I assume
that any potential espionage agent could pick up one of those
lost badges and put his picture in it and pin it on.
Adm. Forsyth. He didn't need to put his picture in it. Most
of those pictures are very difficult to identify, anyway. They
are little pictures about one inch square. You have really got
to put a microscope on them.
There is also the matter of the facility clearance, that is
to say, the physical capability of the plant to maintain
security and to be guarded against sabotage. At that time it
was, in my opinion, very poor, if it was worth anything. I set
about getting a facility clearance fixed up, and it took a long
time to do, although I had the utmost cooperation in that from
Mr. Louis J. Male, who was the plant manager at Schenectady. He
is a man that I don't think he talked to, and if you have an
opportunity again, I think that you should. He is an excellent
man.
I found that our clearance files in our office were not in
good condition, and I found that the clearance files in the
General Electric Company were in worse condition, if anything,
and maybe they weren't in any condition. As far as I know, at
the time I went there they had no security officer, plant wide,
there at all. There was a Mr. John Logan, who was a sort of an
assistant to Mr. H. V. Erben, vice president, who handled
security matters. But that was only part of his duty, and a
very incidental part as far as he was concerned, as far as I
could see. They had no security coordinator for the company,
and security was a pretty sketchy thing.
These things had to be taken up one by one, Senator, and
they couldn't all be accomplished at once, but I think that
within two years we had some fair degree of security. However,
there were a number of things that happened which I will come
to a little later.
The Chairman. I hate to keep interrupting while you are
going through this, but I would imagine, not knowing anything
about handling a security set-up myself except what we get here
in the committees, you take over as a security officer and you
have some forty thousand people, and a small staff, I assume,
and it must be just about an impossible job to bring some order
out of that chaos at that point. If, as the situation built up,
you had a good, tight security set-up, you would never be faced
with the chaotic situation you were in. I could easily
understand how, no matter how competent a security officer
might be, we will say, who came in in 1949 or 1951, by 1953 he
could not possibly catch up to every potential espionage agent.
Adm. Forsyth. No, sir. It was impossible to do, of course.
But I do think that the security officers who I had, who worked
for me, did a remarkably good job in that, and I had three
while I was there. One was Lieutenant Commander J. A.
McDonough; and the second one was D. L. Whyte; and I have given
your staff the address and telephone number of Lieutenant
Commander Whyte, who is now in civilian life, and he lives
nearby here, and he is an excellent man, and outstandingly
good.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: Would Whyte be bound by
military regulations?
Adm. Forsyth. Yes, sir, he is still in the Naval Reserve,
but I am sure that he would be glad to come over on just a
telephone call, and I have arranged clearance.
The Chairman. For that matter, I am bound by them, too. I
am a lieutenant colonel in the Marine Corps.
Adm. Forsyth. Yes, sir, you are.
Then the third security officer that I had after White went
back to inactive duty was Commander Otteson, O-t-t-e-s-o-n, who
is there now. He is there now as security officer.
All three of them really worked at it. As I say, I think
McDonough's capacity was limited, but he certainly worked hard
enough, and I had no kick about the way he worked.
We did get them to set up and establish a security officer
for the plant under the office of the plant manager, Mr. Male.
That security officer they finally settled on to be Mr.
LaForge, who was a former member of the New York State police
organization, and I think you probably know Mr. LaForge's
background pretty well.
Then, the next thing to do was to try to get a security
coordinator for the plant, who, as you say, should sit at the
right hand of the president and speak with his authority. We
kept after them about that, and finally they secured a Mr.
Russell White, a former FBI agent and a lawyer. But, as you
say, they did not place him next to the president, nor did he
have any authority within any operating division.
The Chairman. Would you say, Admiral, that has been one of
the big difficulties in getting a good tight security
organization, that even though you apparently have had some
good, competent security officers out there, they just have not
been given the authority which they need if they are to do the
job as they are supposed to do it?
Adm. Forsyth. Senator, Mr. White drew up a very fine set of
security regulations promulgated throughout the company, and
had they been mandatory, I believe they would've done a good
job. On the first page, however, it said, ``The following
security regulations are recommended,'' and they might just as
well not have been sent out.
The Chairman. He should have been high enough in the
organization to substitute ``ordered'' instead of
``recommended.''
Adm. Forsyth. It should have gone out over the president's
signature, stating ``The following security regulations will be
uniformly placed in effect in all divisions.'' That is the only
way to do that. They weren't. Mr. White and Mr. LaForge both
sit there with both their hands and their feet tied, in my
opinion.
Mr. Anastos. Is there also a security officer in a
division?
Adm. Forsyth. Each division has its own security officer
yes, civilian, of course.
Mr. Anastos. Does the security officer of a division have
any practical power?
Adm. Forsyth. None that I know of.
Mr. Anastos. What are his duties, that you know of?
Adm. Forsyth. Again, to recommend.
The Chairman. Incidentally, I assume that the security
officer must also belong to the UE?
Adm. Forsyth. Oh, no.
The Chairman. He would not?
Adm. Forsyth. No, not a single security officer that I know
of belongs to any union. In that connection, however, there is
a point there that I would like to bring out right now, since
you mentioned it, Senator. As you know, they have a large
number of uniformed guards around the plant. Those uniformed
guards are all deputy sheriffs of Schenectady County, and they
all belong to a union. That, I believe, is illegal.
The Chairman. Do you think they belong to the UE?
Adm. Forsyth. No, sir, they have their own union, which was
represented, I believe, as was brought out by one of your staff
members here, by a man named Silverman.
The Chairman. George, will you check with the attorney
general in New York, and ask him whether or not there is a law
providing it is illegal for deputy sheriffs to belong to a
union, and what, if any, laws cover a strike by deputy
sheriffs? It could be a tremendously dangerous situation if we
had a strike of all of the armed guards. It would be an
impossible situation.
Adm. Forsyth. This went along for the whole four years I
was there, Senator, and it required my personal constant
attention, as well as the undivided time of some other people
on my staff. There isn't a thing that I will say here today
that I haven't said to some responsible person in the General
Electric Company organization at one time or another.
I frankly am sorry that Mr. [Ralph] Cordiner isn't here
now, because I have written a lot of these things to him, and I
am perfectly willing whatever criticisms I have to say to be
made known to Mr. Cordiner, and I will tell him myself again if
he so desires.
The Chairman. Who is Mr. Cordiner?
Adm. Forsyth. President of the General Electric Company,
sir.
The Chairman. Is he the president of the entire
corporation, or is Schenectady a separate company?
Adm. Forsyth. His office is here in New York, right across
from the hotel I am staying in.
At the time that I left, we had approximately twenty
thousand clearances on record of various and sundry kinds. By
that time, I should say approximately eighteen months before I
left, the requirement that we clear for confidential was
removed, and it was placed with the company, which placed quite
a burden on them because they weren't equipped to conduct the
investigations and had to equip themselves.
The Chairman. Incidentally, did you have available the
facilities of the FBI in conducting investigations?
Adm. Forsyth. Yes, sir, but generally speaking, through the
intelligence officer of the Third Naval District, our matters
were conducted through DIO. However, the FBI did enter into it.
The Chairman. I assume, as is usually the case, even though
you got the stuff from ONI, much of it originated with the FBI.
Adm. Forsyth. I should judge it did, yes, sir. As I said,
when we left there, we had approximately twenty thousand
clearances on record, and we had a number of cases on file
where clearances were denied and were revoked and were
suspended, and I found that it was much easier to suspend a
clearance than to revoke a clearance, because if I tried to
revoke a clearance, even under emergency procedures, it was up
to me to explain why. If I suspended it, it placed the burden
of proof on the other hands, because I did it that way. Maybe
it was a dodge, but it worked.
I would like to go on from that to another point which a
member of your staff brought up, Senator, and which caused me a
lot of thought. I still am not very clear on it. They brought
up a matter that some time before I left, I had taken action or
intended to take action, and I myself don't know which it was,
to suspend clearance on several people because they signed
Communist petitions. It is not that particular incident, which
must have been an isolated instance--it is not clear in my
mind. However, in thinking back over it, it appears to me that
some months before I left, and it was early in 1953, I received
a report either from Mr. LaForge's office or through him, that
certain persons had signed Communist petitions. Frankly, I am
prone to take somewhat hasty action upon occasion, and so
offhand I said, ``Suspend their clearances.'' Whereupon, Mr.
LaForge--and I don't remember the occasion clearly, but Mr.
LaForge came right over to my office very quickly, and he said
that he wasn't sure of what he had reported, that there was
nothing sure and certain about that, and asked me if I would
delay action. He presented a very strong argument, and so I did
delay it. As I said at the time, I didn't know whether any
letters in connection with that were signed by me, or by
Commander Otteson as my security officer, but I should like it
clearly understood if Otteson signed any letters, it was at my
direction, and I alone am responsible.
Mr. Anastos. Admiral, can you remember what reasons were
advanced by the General Electric security officer to you to
suspend action or to retract your suspension of the clearance
of people, these people signing a Communist party petition?
Adm. Forsyth. As I say, it is a little hazy in my mind, but
all I can remember is that he presented pretty strongly that
the report that I got, he wasn't sure of at all, and he wasn't
certain, and he felt it might be doing it considerable
injustice.
Mr. Anastos. To whom?
Adm. Forsyth. To the people concerned.
Mr. Anastos. Why?
Adm. Forsyth. Well, you must understand that a person
working in the plant, with the clearance, was plainly evident
to everyone from the badge that he wore; and if all of a sudden
that badge was taken away and a white badge was given them,
that was a non-cleared badge, first, he generally would have to
be moved from the position he was in, and secondly, this white
badge was an immediate indication to everybody that he had gone
wrong. That often created quite a stir.
So as I remember, and as I talked to him in the meeting we
had, I am particularly very vague, and I would be glad to tell
you anything I know about it, and if I could see any letters
perhaps I would remember more about it, but it is pretty vague
in my mind. But if I did, as I say, that is the reason why I
did it.
That is all I had on that particular one, and as I say, I
sat around the whole weekend trying to remember these things. I
just plain can't remember them all.
I am coming now to the missing documents matter. When I
first went there, as I told you, there was a seventeen-page
piece of copy work, classified, as I remember it, confidential,
which disappeared from a stenographer's desk when she
carelessly, and in strict violation of the security rules, went
off to cash her pay check and left it lying by her typewriter.
It was lying by her typewriter. Every possible kind of a search
was made for that seventeen-page document, which was just a
part of the whole, incidentally, and it was never found.
Mr. Cohn. You reached the conclusion it was stolen?
Adm. Forsyth. I feel very sure in my own mind that it was
definitely stolen. As far as I know, nothing ever happened to
anybody involved in that.
Mr. Anastos. Admiral, from what plant or division was that
document missing?
Adm. Forsyth. It was the Aeronautics and Ordnance System
Division work, and whether the girl was actually sitting in an
O & AS office, I can't recall.
Mr. Anastos. Briefly, what type of work was done in A&O?
Adm. Forsyth. Practically all of it was classified in some
degree, and it was work in the manufacture of torpedoes,
gunfire control systems, airplane control systems, and guided
missiles.
Mr. Cohn. That was that one instance. There was another
incident involving an inventory that was taken, is that
correct?
Adm. Forsyth. I have them all listed.
Mr. Cohn. All right.
Adm. Forsyth. That was in the middle of 1949.
In 1951 and 1952, we got the General Electric Company to
hold an inventory of all classified material in the way of
documents, drawings, and so on, in the A&OS Division. You must
realize, as I said, that the General Electric Company has no
central filing system, and they don't use file numbers, and it
is very difficult to locate papers. It is very difficult to
track them. As a result of that inventory, a large number--
originally it was several hundred--were found to be missing. We
went back and required that a search of the files, file-by-file
and folder-by-folder, and the desks drawer-by-drawer, be made,
and a large number of these papers were found. However, at the
time that I left there, it was reduced to what even the General
Electric Company considered an irreducible number, and as I
remember, the number was in the neighborhood of twenty to
thirty documents that were found to be missing and just could
not be located, no matter where.
Mr. Cohn. Did those documents follow some kind of a pattern
and deal with the same subject matter?
Adm. Forsyth. The major portion of those documents dealt
with the torpedo. I had an evaluation of those documents made
by my torpedo engineer, by ordnance engineers, and they
reported to me in their opinion on the missing material, the
torpedoes had been definitely compromised and must be
considered compromised.
Mr. Cohn. There is a final incident involved there.
Adm. Forsyth. We can go on, if you wish to, and there was a
standing instruction, again on torpedoes, which was a document-
sort of a descriptive specification of settings for certain
portions of the torpedo, which was supposed to have been
shipped from the General Engineering Laboratory to the A&OS
Division at Pittsfield, in a box of equipment, and the man who
sent the box swore it was in there, and the man who received
the box said it wasn't received, and I know definitely it was
not received. Those documents were never found.
Then there was the matter--and this is one of the most
amazing things--of the package of documents, again concerning
the torpedo, which were lost, stolen, or strayed from A&OS
within a time after I left. A girl messenger, properly cleared
and all, had been given this bundle to take from one man to
another man near the quitting time, and when she got there it
was so near the quitting time that the man who was to receive
them didn't want to take them, and said he couldn't do anything
with them that night, and told her to take them back and put
them in the vault.
This vault was a special vault in the A&OS Division for the
storage of classified material. It was in a room which was
locked, and to which, as I was told, only four people had the
key, and only one man was supposed to know the combination to
the vault. They were put, the girl says, in the vault, and she
gave them to the man and he put them in the vault. The next
morning when she came to get the papers and take them to the
person to whom she was to deliver them, they were missing.
That was investigated by the proper investigative agencies,
not once but, to my knowledge, at least twice, and possibly
three times, and they dropped everything and started all over
again, because they said or told me they were right up against
a blank wall, and those papers have never been found.
There were other isolated instances occurring practically
all of the time. I should say on the average of once every two
weeks, some----
Mr. Cohn. Did you find a reluctance on the part of the
company to take action against those guilty of security
violations?
Adm. Forsyth. I tried again and again to get proper
disciplinary action, and the company was very reluctant to take
it, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, what do we have after the documents?
Adm. Forsyth. One thing I would like to cover with regard
to documents was that I had an inventory, a similar inventory
made in the General Engineering Laboratory, which is a highly
sensitive location, and to the best of my knowledge and belief
there wasn't one single paper missing there. It was really
outstanding.
You asked me the other night for divisions where such an
inventory should also be made, and I couldn't remember it, but
one definitely is the Tube Division, where they make electronic
tubes of all kinds.
The next item was the manner or reason that the UE union is
permitted in the plant, the main plant at General Electric
Company, when the Knolls Atomic Laboratory bars them; and as
you indicated from part of a letter you read me, that was done
by reason of Mr. Lillienthal's action.
I should like to point out that in so far as the main plant
is concerned, that this is done strictly because of the
provisions of the law. The major portion of the workers, the
majority of the workers in that plant, voted that they wanted
the UE to represent them; and there is nothing under the law
that I know of, or that the General Electric Company knew of,
to bar UE from the plant. They had to accept the
recommendation.
Mr. Cohn. Do you regard it as a dangerous security
situation having members of UE who work on classified material,
responsible in their union activities in connection with
grievances to known Communist leaders, who can discover
indirectly just what these people assigned to classified
material have been working on?
Adm. Forsyth. I do, and I do consider that a very dangerous
situation. Again, it is questionable as to whether or not,
under the law, that can be prevented. However, I do believe
that if it can be definitely proved that a worker in the plant
revealed to an unauthorized person classified information, that
the espionage law would cover them.
Mr. Cohn. There is no doubt about that.
Adm. Forsyth. It would have to be definitely proven.
Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a dangerous situation?
Adm. Forsyth. It is an extremely dangerous situation.
Mr. Anastos. Isn't it true that according to the security
regulations at General Electric in Schenectady, nobody was
allowed to work in A&O and General Laboratory Division, or
General Engineering Laboratory Division, unless that person had
a clearance of some sort?
Adm. Forsyth. I was coming to that, too. There were places
in A&OS, and also in the general engineering laboratory, where
no classified work of any nature whatever existed. But, it was
my desire, more often than not expressed to the managers of
those divisions, that no person who didn't have a proper
clearance be admitted. However, when they tried to remove some
people who either did not have a clearance or whose clearance
had been revoked, suspended, or whatever you call it, then they
again ran squarely against the union and the seniority rules.
The union immediately screamed, actually and physically, that
these people would lose seniority, and that their seniority
would be taken away from them. And so, the General Electric
Company was actually forced to retain those people in the place
where they were, because of the seniority rules.
Mr. Anastos. Do you remember the particular persons who had
no clearance but were allowed to work in those two divisions?
Adm. Forsyth. Offhand I cannot, and if I saw their names I
would click on them, probably.
Mr. Anastos. Would you remember whether or not there was
derogatory information against those particular persons?
Adm. Forsyth. I think so. I am not too sure of that. If any
of--and there were, yes, of course there must have been,
because after all, the man was denied a clearance, or if his
clearance was revoked it was done for cause and not for fun.
Mr. Cohn. Admiral, is it a fact that approximately one-
quarter to one-third of the work done by the whole General
Electric Company is government work and government contracts?
Adm. Forsyth. Approximately so, yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. One more thing I will ask you. In view of this
situation of this Communist-dominated union being up there, and
the other things you have outlined, do you regard the presence
of Communists who are there at that plant as a danger or threat
to national security?
Adm. Forsyth. Definitely.
Mr. Cohn. In what respect?
Adm. Forsyth. Because they are in a position, first, to
conduct espionage; and, second, sabotage. And that plant, as
well as certain other GE plants, are vital to the national
defense, and there is no way you can get around that.
The Chairman. We had a witness before us the other day, a
young man who worked in GE for quite a long time. He told us
that he joined the Communist party as a dues-paying member in
September of 1948 or 1949, and he dropped out as a dues paying
member in February of 1953, this year. He indicated he was
sympathetic to the Communist cause before that. He was
completely cooperative, and I am convinced the break is
complete. He gave us the names of thirteen people who were in
effect in his cell, known as Communists, and a great many of
them were shop stewards. He related the fact that while a shop
steward who had a Communist record might be denied clearance,
he said on a grievance committee and that sort of thing there
was no difficulty getting secret information and a complete
picture of the operations.
He went on to say from the knowledge he had as a member of
the Communist party, there was nothing about all of the GE
operations, and nothing they manufactured, no matter what the
classification was, that is secret from the Communist party.
Would you think that that could be classified as a fairly
accurate statement?
Adm. Forsyth. Yes, sir, under the circumstances, I do.
Unfortunately, I must admit it.
I have some other things here which I would like to bring
out. I am still talking about the UE union in the plant, and as
I say, that is provided for by law, and it would require, I
believe, a change in the Taft-Hartley Act----
Mr. Cohn. Couldn't the government just come in and put a
provision in its contracts that they will not permit-
Adm. Forsyth. That would be contrary to the Taft-Hartley
law, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. For the government to make that provision in its
contracts?
Adm. Forsyth. Yes, because the majority of the workers of
the plant vote they want UE to represent them, and how can you
stop it?
Mr. Cohn. Can't they invoke the provision, I think in the
National Security Act, giving the Defense Department the power
to declare something as a restricted area, and exclude
Communists from it?
Adm. Forsyth. I can come to that in very short order. I was
coming right down to this: that the AEC can, by virtue of
certain provisions of the Atomic Energy Act, require the
exclusion of subversives, of people of known subversive
affiliation or of organizations to which people who are
subversives belong, even though the organizations might not be
proved to be so themselves. The AEC can do that under the
Atomic Energy Act. I don't believe anybody in the Defense
Department has any such legal authority.
Mr. Cohn. I don't agree with that at all.
Adm. Forsyth. I have a way out of it in any event. I speak
now of the General Electric Company approach, which had certain
points of weaknesses. First, their organization has recently
been completely done over. They have decentralized to a degree
almost unheard of. Every division in the General Electric
Company operates as a separate business. It is excellent from a
business viewpoint. But it should be a means to an end, and not
an end in itself. Some things can only be realized by strongly
centralized authority, and good security is one of them.
Now, the security coordinator, who is the top security man
in the General Electric Company, has no real authority. He
reports to a relatively low level. The security officers,
similarly, within the various divisions, generally speaking,
particularly in the case of the A&O Division, report again to a
relatively low level. The security officer in the A&OS
Division, for a specific example, reports to the manager of
engineering, one Mr. Carroll--and why he should do that is just
beyond my ken. I just can't understand it. If I were sitting in
his position, I wouldn't allow it for a minute, for my own
safety.
He is required, as you have brought out here before, to
just sit in a corner and do nothing except what he is told. For
instance, in this room which contained the vault that I spoke
of, no security officer in the A&O Division is allowed in that
room. They are not allowed to have keys to it, and they are not
allowed to have anything to do with it.
The Chairman. It sounds like a fantastic situation, does it
not?
Adm. Forsyth. It is, indeed. Security instructions written
by Mr. Russell White in my opinion, are excellent, but they are
only recommended. They are not mandatory. They are sent to all
division managers, and the interpretation and the application
is left up to a variety of individuals, and so the carrying out
of those instructions varies just with the individual who
interprets them and applies them. There is no uniformity, and
there is no compulsion to it at all. There is no strictly
applied disciplinary action for violations.
That is just, again, a situation that I can't understand.
We in the navy, if I lost a confidential book, I know precisely
what is going to happen to me, and it is going to happen fast
and long. I will have thirteen solemnly looking at me.
The Chairman. I want to ask you a question. I just wonder
if it wouldn't be extremely important to see if we could not
get clearance to have you testify in a public session. I think
it is just so important for the American people to know what is
going on, because as J. Edgar Hoover once said, once the people
know the facts, they will take care of the situation. I am just
wondering what you would think about our attempting to get
clearance.
Adm. Forsyth. Senator, I would like to help this committee
just all I can, but I am really very loath to appear in a
public session.
Mr. Cohn. If the navy clears it, if the secretary of the
navy approves it; wouldn't that be a matter of policy for the
navy?
The Chairman. We will talk with the admiral further on
that.
Adm. Forsyth. I like to sit in a place like this and let it
all go.
Mr. Cohn. It doesn't do much good.
Adm. Forsyth. It is going to do some good, because I think
I can tell you how to do some good. After all, I sat on this
job for four years. I went lots of times, several times, many
times, to highly placed officials in the General Electric
Company, vice presidents and executive vice presidents, and to
the president himself, and every time they would say to me,
``You tell me where there is something wrong, and I will do
something about it.'' And as I pointed out to them, on every
such occasion, that was only putting out the fires, and I
wanted to prevent the fires. That is the whole thing that is
wrong with their work. They are willing to put out fires, but
they don't prevent them ahead of time.
Mr. Anastos. Isn't the reason for this laxity in security
measures the fact that the General Electric plant has assumed a
decentralization policy?
Adm. Forsyth. The decentralization is definitely
responsible in large measure for it, because the president
feels if he is going to hold a division general manager
responsible for his profits, and make or break him on it, he
can't tell him how to conduct his business, and he has so told
me in writing, that is, Mr. Cordiner has told me.
Mr. Anastos. Carrying that a little further, do you mean
that the General Electric Company is more concerned with making
a profit than in taking proper security measures?
Adm. Forsyth. No, I would find that very difficult to say.
I would hate to say that. I just say that they are so imbued
with the profit motive, they find it hard to do anything that
will break it the least little bit. After all, they have lived
their lives with it.
The Chairman. Admiral, I wonder if you would do this for
us: I have some very disagreeable witnesses out here who have
attorneys with them, who have been kept here for four hours. I
wonder if you would take a chair over here and listen to their
testimony.
Adm. Forsyth. These points are mostly written, so I can
read them off whenever you are ready, and I have some definite
recommendations.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. In this
matter now in hearing before the committee. Do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Snyder. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL SNYDER, (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEONARD BOUDIN)
Mr. Cohn. Could we have your name, please?
Mr. Snyder. Samuel Snyder.
Mr. Cohn. For the record, Mr. Leonard Boudin appears for
the witness.
Where do you reside?
Mr. Snyder. 2141-34th Avenue, Long Island City.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mr. Snyder. I am a patent attorney.
Mr. Cohn. You are a patent attorney?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You are admitted to the bar in New York?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir; in Washington, D.C.
Mr. Cohn. Do you practice before any government agencies?
Mr. Snyder. Not now.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever practice before the Patent Office?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You do not now, though, do you?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir. I might on something I am qualified
on.
The Chairman. And if the occasion arose, you would appear
before the Patent Office?
Mr. Snyder. I could, yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Snyder, have you ever worked for the
government?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mr. Snyder. Well, first in the Patent Office, and then in
the Bureau of Standards, and the last time in the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. When did you go to work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Snyder. April 1949.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you work for
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Snyder. From April 1949, to, I think it was, March 3 or
March 6, 1951.
Mr. Cohn. And where were you stationed?
Mr. Snyder. In New York.
Mr. Cohn. Where in New York?
Mr. Snyder. Well, our office moved once, and most of the
time I guess it was on LaFayette Street.
Mr. Cohn. What type of work did you do?
Mr. Snyder. Really the same thing. I was a patent attorney,
although my title was patent adviser.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have any access to any classified
information, patent or otherwise?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You did?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now, up to what classification?
Mr. Snyder. Up to secret.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Snyder, are you now or have you ever
been a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Snyder. No I have never been; I am not now.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, you are free to confer with counsel,
you understand, at any time.
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever committed espionage?
Mr. Snyder. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever transmitted any classified
information to any member of the Communist party?
Mr. Snyder. Well, not knowingly.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever known any member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Snyder. Well, I would rather you ask me specifically.
Mr. Cohn. Just answer the questions as I put them to you.
Mr. Snyder. Well, I have to plead the Fifth Amendment,
then.
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to answer on the ground the answer
might tend to incriminate you, under the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I did not get the answer to your other
question.
Did you ever discuss any classified material with anyone
who was known to you as a Communist or whom you had reason to
believe was a Communist?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
The Chairman. At no time?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a woman named Eleanor Nelson?
Mr. Snyder. I plead the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. The Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever discuss any Signal Corps work of
yours with Eleanor Nelson? You can talk to Mr. Boudin any time
you want to.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. The answer is no.
Mr. Cohn. You did not? Your testimony under oath is that
you never discussed any of your work at the Signal Corps with
Eleanor Nelson?
Mr. Snyder. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend a Communist party meeting
with Eleanor Nelson?
Mr. Snyder. I plead the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Did you attend any Communist party meetings with
Eleanor Nelson while you were employed by the Signal Corps?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. I plead the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Are there any persons who worked with you for the
Signal Corps who are members of the Communist party?
Mr. Snyder. Well, I might take a normal understanding. No,
I knew of nobody at the Signal Corps.
The Chairman. I am having difficulty hearing you.
Mr. Snyder. The answer is ``no.''
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend a Communist party meeting
with anybody who worked with you at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Snyder. No.
Mr. Boudin. Excuse me a second.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Cohn. What was his answer? Could we have the question?
[The question was read by the reporter.]
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend any Communist party meetings
with any person who worked with you at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Snyder. No.
The Chairman. I did not quite get his answer to the last
question. Did you ever know anyone at the Signal Corps whom you
either knew to be a Communist, or had reason to believe was a
Communist or member of the Communist party?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, I include people whom you
knew to be Communists at that time, or people whom you
subsequently learned were Communists. Do you understand my
question?
Mr. Snyder. I think that I understand your question, and I
am just trying to think, but there might have been people that
I have read about since; and certainly no one that I knew, in
the sense of having met or something like that, no one like
that was a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. Did Eleanor Nelson live in your home while you
were working for the United States government?
Mr. Snyder. I will plead the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Did Eleanor Nelson use your home as a mail drop
in connection with espionage activities?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. I have no knowledge of that.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear that she had?
Mr. Snyder. Pardon me?
The Chairman. Did you ever hear anything to that effect?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did she ever tell you that she expected to
receive certain mail at your home----
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn [continuing]. That was of great importance?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever believe Eleanor Nelson to be an
espionage agent?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever believe her to be a member of the
Communist party?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. I plead the Fifth Amendment on that.
The Chairman. Were you ever engaged in any illegal
activities in connection with Eleanor Nelson, either directly
or indirectly?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. It might be that we don't understand, or I
don't at least, what would be comprehended by ``illegal
activities.''
The Chairman. Well, were you ever engaged in any activities
in connection with Eleanor Nelson either directly or
indirectly, which you thought were illegal, or violations of
the laws?
Mr. Snyder. Which I thought were illegal?
The Chairman. Yes.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. Could you be more specific, because there seems
to be some doubt as to what we are to understand by the
question?
Mr. Cohn. You are a member of the bar. You know what
``illegal activities'' are.
The Chairman. I am asking you whether, to your knowledge,
you have ever engaged in any activities in connection with
Eleanor Nelson, either directly or indirectly, which you
considered a violation of the law? Either you did or you did
not, and either you thought you were in violation of the law in
connection with your activities which concerned her, or at this
time you feel that you never violated the law in any activities
in which she was involved.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. I feel that I can't answer the question because
of its general character. I therefore plead the Fifth
Amendment.
The Chairman. That is not grounds for pleading the Fifth
Amendment, because of the general character of the question. If
you feel the answer to the question might tend to incriminate
you, you can refuse to answer; but you cannot refuse because of
the general character of the question. Do you feel the answer
might tend to incriminate you?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. I have to plead the Fifth Amendment, then.
Mr. Cohn. Now, the last point I want to cover is this:
While you were working for the government, did you ever have a
loyalty hearing?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For whom were you working when you had the
loyalty hearing?
Mr. Snyder. The Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. The hearing was initiated by your being served
with a letter of charges, is that correct?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Were you suspended at the time the letter was
served?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. That isn't quite so, and let me make it clear--
--
The Chairman. Could you speak a little louder?
Mr. Snyder. There was a loyalty hearing, and that,
technically, was not initiated by the Signal Corps but by the
Civil Service Commission, and I was not suspended at that time.
Mr. Cohn. What was the result of that hearing?
Mr. Synder. I was cleared.
Mr. Cohn. By whom were you cleared?
Mr. Synder. By the Civil Service Commission.
Mr. Cohn. By the regional board, or on appeal?
Mr. Synder. By the regional board.
Mr. Cohn. You were cleared by the regional board?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. There was never an appeal by either side?
Mr. Synder. No, sir.
The Chairman. Let us make it clear. You mean the first army
loyalty board, or do you mean the final board in the Pentagon?
Mr. Synder. No, I mean first there was a loyalty hearing by
the Second Civil Service region.
The Chairman. What did they find; against you?
Mr. Synder. No, sir, they found for me.
Mr. Cohn. They were acting for the Signal Corps, which was
your employer; is that right?
Mr. Synder. That is not my understanding. My understanding
is that the procedure at that time was that when you took a
Civil Service job, you were first either cleared or not
cleared, as a result of a hearing, if there was information, by
the Civil Service Commission.
Mr. Cohn. This was not at the time of your employment; this
was after you had been employed?
Mr. Synder. Yes, but it was still by the Civil Service
Commission, and it was not a Signal Corps thing.
The Chairman. You started working there in April of 1949?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When did you have this hearing?
Mr. Synder. I had it in February of 1950.
The Chairman. And the commanding officer did not suspend
you?
Mr. Synder. No, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, you were never out of work,
is that correct?
Mr. Synder. No, I am not saying that.
The Chairman. Were you working every day?
Mr. Synder. The loyalty hearing----
The Chairman. Were you ever suspended from your job?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For how long?
Mr. Synder. From March 1951 until I was reinstated, October
1952.
The Chairman. So you were out for about a year and a half?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir, not as a result of that loyalty
hearing, but as a result of a security loyalty hearing.
The Chairman. How long did you work in 1952, then? How long
did you continue to work in 1952?
Mr. Synder. I did not really work, and I resigned after
reinstatement.
The Chairman. Did you get all of your back pay?
Mr. Synder. I didn't ask for back pay.
The Chairman. Did you get your pay from March of 1951 to
October of 1952?
Mr. Synder. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never received back pay?
Mr. Synder. You see, one has----
The Chairman. Did you ever receive the pay?
Mr. Synder. I did not get paid for that period, no, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For any part of that period, did you get paid?
Mt. Synder. No, sir, but I have to qualify it. You may not
understand me.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Synder. I did not get paid for that period. I waived
payment for that period.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Synder. Because the rule is that you are paid for that
period, you are entitled to pay for that period unless your
earnings were so much, and I figured my earnings were probably
so close I didn't ask for pay.
The Chairman. But the board did order that you be
reinstated and receive your back pay, is that correct?
Mr. Synder. I think ordered or authorized it.
The Chairman. Now, can you tell us why it took from March
of 1951 to October of 1952, about a year and a half, to pass on
your case? Do you have any way of knowing that?
Mr. Synder. The reason is, I believe, that I had a hearing,
and this is a second hearing, by the Signal Corps----
The Chairman. Who held the first hearing?
Mr. Synder. The first one was held by the Civil Service
Commission.
The Chairman. And what happened as a result of that
hearing? Did they clear you?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They cleared you?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Let us start at the beginning. Your
commanding officer recommended you for a loyalty hearing, is
that right?
Mr. Synder. Well, I don't know how it is initiated.
The Chairman. When did you first get notice that you were
accused of being either disloyal or a bad security risk?
Mr. Synder. About December of 1949.
The Chairman. December of 1949?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you had started working in April of 1949,
is that right? In what way did you get this information?
Mr. Synder. Pardon me?
The Chairman. How did you get the information? By letter?
Mr. Synder. By letter, yes, sir.
The Chairman. From whom?
Mr. Synder. From--I am assuming, I know from, I think, the
Civil Service Commission of the second region.
The Chairman. The second region?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were there charges in that letter, and did
they tell you why you were being accused?
Mr. Synder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Why did they say you were accused?
[The witness conferred with his counsel]
Mr. Synder. According to my recollection----
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Synder. There were questions as to my membership in the
Communist party, and some allegations of that kind, and
allegations of association with certain persons.
Mr. Cohn. Eleanor Nelson?
The Chairman. Were you accused of associating with Eleanor
Nelson in these charges?
Mr. Snyder. That allegation was made.
Mr. Cohn. The charges were made, is that correct?
The Chairman. Were you not charged with being part of an
espionage network?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you charged with having in your home a
person who belonged to an espionage network, and who was the
maildrop for an espionage network?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
The Chairman. Anything of that nature?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have the charges yet?
Mr. Snyder. I don't have them.
The Chairman. Who has them?
Mr. Snyder. My attorney has them.
The Chairman. You are ordered to produce them. Now, it is
not necessary for you to bring them down, Mr. Boudin. If you
will send a photostat of the charges, that will be sufficient.
Mr. Cohn. There is other material I want to get, so why
don't you hold that up.
The Chairman. Let us have the record show that he is
ordered to produce the charges.
Mr. Cohn. After these charges were made, Mr. Snyder, you
had a hearing, is that correct?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You were suspended, and you were out of a job
with the Signal Corps, and you went to this hearing before the
Civil Service Commission, is that right?
Mr. Snyder. That is right, except that I was not suspended
at that time.
Mr. Cohn. You kept right on working. And you had a hearing?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Who were the members of the board at that
hearing?
Mr. Snyder. I don't think that I can recall their names.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall any of the names?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. How many people were on the board?
Mr. Snyder. There were three.
Mr. Cohn. Now, as a result of that hearing, did you testify
at that hearing?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did any witnesses testify against you?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have a transcript of that hearing, or were
you furnished with a transcript of that hearing?
Mr. Snyder. I was not.
Mr. Cohn. Was your attorney furnished one?
Mr. Snyder. My attorney was.
Mr. Cohn. Who was your attorney?
Mr. Snyder. Mr. Boudin is my attorney.
Mr. Cohn. He has a copy of it?
The Chairman. The witness is directed to produce that.
Mr. Cohn. You are going to get three or four requests. Now,
the next thing is this: You received a written notice from the
Civil Service Commission that you were cleared, is that right?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now, when did you get notice of the next hearing,
the loyalty security board of the army? When did you get notice
of that?
Mr. Snyder. Well, roughly, say, in February of 1951.
Mr. Cohn. About how long after you had been cleared by the
Civil Service Commission was that?
Mr. Snyder. Well, approximately half a year.
Mr. Cohn. About half a year?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. At that time were you suspended?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Then you were suspended?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Up to this time, had you continued to work with
classified material?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You had?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When you were suspended and you left the job, did
you have another hearing, a hearing before the security loyalty
board?
Mr. Snyder. Excuse me, may I correct that answer. Something
just occurred to me. You asked, did I continue to work with
classified material. Yes, I did, but at some time during that
half-year, my security rating was lowered to restricted.
Mr. Cohn. It was lowered, but continued as lowered to
restricted?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you are now suspended, and you have your
second hearing, is that correct?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. This is before the army security loyalty board?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the First Army?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where was that?
Mr. Snyder. Where was it held, you mean?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Snyder. It was held at an army installation on Varrick
Street.
Mr. Cohn. Who were the members of that board?
Mr. Snyder. There was a Mrs. O'Connor, I believe--and I am
giving you my best recollection--and there was a colonel--his
name escapes me--and a Mr. Bragaw, B-r-a-g-a-w, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. Now, what was the ruling, or what was the finding
of that regional board?
Mr. Snyder. That board found against me.
Mr. Cohn. And did you take an appeal from that finding?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was that finding reversed, on appeal, by the
screening board to which the appeal was taken?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. It was reversed?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Who were the members of the screening board which
reversed that appeal?
Mr. Snyder. I believe there were five men, but I am not too
sure, again.
Mr. Cohn. Was one of them named Mr. East, E-a-s-t?
Mr. Snyder. I don't remember Mr. East.
Mr. Cohn. Who do you remember?
Mr. Snyder. I remember Mr. Gordon D. Taft. He was the
chairman. And the name Clement occurs to me, but I am not too
sure of it, and there is a lieutenant colonel, or there was a
lieutenant colonel.
Mr. Cohn. Now, before----
The Chairman. You said there was a Gordon Taft, and you are
not sure and there was a lieutenant colonel. Do you know what
the lieutenant colonel's last name was, or first name?
Mr. Snyder. I don't remember, I don't recall.
The Chairman. How about the other two members of the board?
Mr. Snyder. I am pretty vague on it, but I also have been
thinking of the name White, and I wouldn't be sure of that.
That might be one of the names. I am not sure of that.
The Chairman. Do you know whether Mr. East was on the
board?
Mr. Snyder. I don't remember that name.
The Chairman. We have four now, and can you think of the
fifth one?
Mr. Snyder. I don't know whether there were five, and it
seems to me now, sort of coming back a bit, that there were
four members and one observer.
The Chairman. You do not know who the other observer or
member was?
Mr. Snyder. I don't think so.
The Chairman. Now, the appeal board reinstated you, is that
right?
Mr. Snyder. Yes.
The Chairman. Why did you not go back and work for the
Signal Corps then? You were ordered reinstated at that time.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. I think that the reason was, I just considered
I was having too much trouble.
The Chairman. Where were you working then?
Mr. Snyder. I was working at the Western Electric Company.
The Chairman. Was Western Electric doing any government
work?
Mr. Snyder. It is a big company, and I suppose they were.
The Chairman. Were you handling any classified material
there?
Mr. Snyder. No, sir.
The Chairman. What kind of work were you doing there?
Mr. Snyder. I was doing foreign patent work.
The Chairman. Foreign patent work?
Mr. Snyder. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Having to do with mechanical equipment?
Mr. Snyder. Well, almost anything that might come through.
The Chairman. What are you doing now?
Mr. Snyder. The same kind of work.
The Chairman. When you were before either the army board or
the appeal board, were you asked whether or not you knew
Eleanor Nelson?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Snyder. I plead the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You of course have the transcript of what
went on at both of those two loyalty hearings, I assume.
Mr. Snyder. Again, I don't have them, but my attorney does.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to produce the minutes of
those two hearings, also, and I think that that is all. We will
order those produced--Mr. Boudin, what time in the morning will
those be produced?
Mr. Boudin. I will say the witness will decline to produce
those papers, on the ground the hearing procedure, we
understand, is confidential under the Civil Service and army
rules; and, if you will not accept that, on the further ground,
which I think you will, the witness' privilege under the Fifth
Amendment. Those are the two grounds.
The Chairman. You will decline to produce the official
record?
Mr. Boudin. The hearings, in which there is testimony of
the witness himself, and the Fifth Amendment applies to all
documents in which the witness may have made any statement or
which was the basis of it. For those reasons, the witness will
decline to produce it.
I take it that you will adopt my statement.
Mr. Snyder. I adopt my attorney's statement.
The Chairman. The chair does not recognize the first
grounds cited by counsel, namely, that this is privileged
because it is the army and Civil Service regulations, because
he was accused of wrongdoing at the time, and he is no longer a
member of any government bureau and no longer working for the
government, and this would not apply to him; and if there is
anything secret about the documents, he would not be entitled
to have them. The chair thinks we have a perfect right to
subpoena them.
As to the second ground, that he has a privilege under the
Fifth Amendment not to produce them, the chair differs with
counsel on that, and will order the witness to produce the
material by two o'clock tomorrow afternoon.
May I say for counsel's benefit, however, that I will go
over, with my legal staff, this question you have raised, and
if they agree with you that he is entitled to refuse to produce
the documents under the Fifth Amendment, then we will get in
touch with you by phone by twelve o'clock tomorrow.
Mr. Boudin. Senator, thank you. And in the event that you
were not to agree with my contention, I can submit a memorandum
to you in support of the cases when you are ready to receive
it; and then I would prefer a subpoena at the proper time being
issued to the witness, so that we can make a motion to vacate
the subpoena.
I take it that that is satisfactory.
The Chairman. I may say that normally we would not serve a
subpoena. If you feel that it is necessary, in order to avail
yourself of a legal right that you think your client has, I can
see no objection to serving a subpoena duces tecum.
Mr. Boudin. Thank you.
The Chairman. Will you stand up and raise your right hand.
In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Pataki. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ERNEST PATAKI, (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, VICTOR
RABINOWITZ)
The Chairman. I may say for your benefit that the chair has
already made a record to the effect I am going to recommend
your case to the Senate and the grand jury for contempt for
having failed to appear. If at this time you want to tell us
why you did not appear when you were subpoenaed the last time
and your ground appears valid to me, number one, I will not
submit it to the Senate; and number two, regardless of whether
I think it is valid ground or not, I will submit it to the
Senate. If I think it is not a valid ground and I still
recommend you for contempt, I will still give the Senate the
excuse you give today so that they will be able to evaluate
your case. If you care to tell us--and you may want to consult
your counsel first--why you did not appear, we will be glad to
hear from you.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
The Chairman. Give your full name.
Mr. Pataki. Ernest Pataki P-a-t-a-k-i. My reasons for not
answering the subpoena was that I had about an hour's notice
between receiving the subpoena and the appearance, and I found
it impossible to arrange to be represented by counsel within
that hour.
The Chairman. Had you known before that that the committee
was looking for you?
Mr. Pataki. I had information that day, the same day.
The Chairman. Whom did you get the information from?
Mr. Pataki. From my wife.
The Chairman. What time of the day was that?
Mr. Pataki. I don't recall the time. She was here and
testifying.
The Chairman. She was at her home. Did she tell you?
Mr. Pataki. I am sorry, I can't hear you.
The Chairman. She was ordered to go home, as I recall, and
if she saw you to tell you that you were wanted here before the
committee. Did she tell you that?
Mr. Pataki. She told me after she got home--and I don't
recall the time--that the committee was interested in my
appearance.
The Chairman. In other words, your excuse is that you were
subpoenaed too late and you had only an hour's time to appear,
and you felt that the charges against you were of such a nature
you wanted a lawyer and you felt you did not have time to get a
lawyer and to consult with him, is that it?
Mr. Pataki. I didn't understand the first part.
The Chairman. I said, in other words--if I can recapitulate
what I have said--you say the subpoena was served upon you so
late that there was only one hour's time between the time you
were served and the time you were to appear, and you felt that
that did not give you time to consult with a lawyer and that
you should have additional time, and for that reason you did
not appear?
Mr. Pataki. That is correct.
The Chairman. I think that is a valid ground.
Counsel has pointed out that this might be a valid ground
to come down and ask for a continuance on the ground that you
did not have time to get counsel, but that there would be no
grounds for refusal to appear, especially in view of the fact
that you previously knew that you were wanted here before the
committee. I will call this to the attention of the full
committee and let them decide what to do in the matter.
Now, your wife's name is what?
Mr. Pataki. Mrs. Vivian Pataki.
The Chairman. And her name before that was Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Pataki. That is correct.
The Chairman. When did you get married?
Mr. Pataki. January 1952.
The Chairman. How long had you known Miss Glassman before
you were married?
Mr. Pataki. I can't give the exact time; about four years.
The Chairman. During that four years' time, was your wife
involved in espionage, to your knowledge?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Where do you work now?
Mr. Pataki. Cooper Union.
The Chairman. Cooper Union high school?
Mr. Pataki. College.
The Chairman. Cooper Union College?
Mr. Pataki. The name is, the Cooper Union.
The Chairman. That is a college, is it?
Mr. Pataki. An engineering and art college.
The Chairman. How many students do you have?
Mr. Pataki. I don't understand.
The Chairman. How many students do you teach in the course
of a week, different individuals?
Mr. Pataki. All classes?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Pataki. Approximately sixty.
The Chairman. Have you ever discussed espionage with anyone
whom you had reason to believe was an espionage agent?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. On the grounds of the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever work at the Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work on any project involving radar,
directly or indirectly?
Mr. Pataki. To the best of my knowledge and recollection,
no.
Mr. Cohn. What did you work on?
Mr. Pataki. Design and development of electronic equipment.
Mr. Cohn. Well, radar of course is an integral part of
electronic equipment.
Mr. Pataki. Not all electronic equipment is part of radar.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you worked on electronic equipment?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was any of it classified?
Mr. Pataki. I don't know what the official classification
was.
Mr. Cohn. Was it classified or was it public information,
anything you work on?
Mr. Pataki. It wasn't public information.
Mr. Cohn. It was classified but you don't know what the
exact classification was, is that right?
Mr. Pataki. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And you had permission to work on such classified
material?
Mr. Pataki. I was given access to it.
Mr. Cohn. When did you work for the Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Pataki. From the middle of 1944 to the middle of 1950.
Mr. Cohn. To the middle of 1950?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work on government work during that
entire time?
Mr. Pataki. I worked on contracts from the government.
Mr. Cohn. Were some of those contracts from the Army Signal
Corps?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you go after you left the Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Pataki. I have worked in a television factory.
Mr. Cohn. On any government work?
Mr. Pataki. No.
The Chairman. What television factory?
Mr. Pataki. Tele-King Corporation.
The Chairman. Did you know a Mr. Levitsky there?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. You worked with Levitsky at the Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory on Signal Corps work, did you
not?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the ground of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that Levitsky got you your
job at Tele-King?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Mr. Pataki, when you were working on Signal
Corps contracts at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory,
were you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the ground of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage at that time?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the ground of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Julius Rosenberg
espionage ring?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the ground of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Do you feel that if you were to answer that,
your answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Pataki. It might tend to.
The Chairman. Do you feel it might tend to?
Mr. Pataki. Yes.
The Chairman. That is true of all of these questions that
you refuse to answer on the ground of the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Pataki. That is right.
The Chairman. You understand that you do not have any right
to refuse unless you honestly feel that the answer might tend
to incriminate you?
Mr. Pataki. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, does Cooper Union do any government work of
any kind, research or anything else?
Mr. Pataki. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party today?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the
Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of an espionage ring today?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Are you in contact with the remaining members of
the Rosenberg spy ring today?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Did you participate in the distribution of money
from the Soviet Union to members of the Rosenberg spy ring
following Rosenberg's arrest?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present and in Vivian Glassman's
apartment when Julius gave her money to distribute to members
of that spy ring?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with the
distribution of fake passports to people known to you to be
espionage agents or whom you had reason to believe were
espionage agents?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Joel Barr?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Albert Sarant?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. Who is your immediate superior at Cooper
Union?
Mr. Pataki. Professor Starr S-t-a-r-r.
The Chairman. As far as you know, he is not a Communist?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer that?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You feel the answer to that might tend to
incriminate you?
Mr. Pataki. That is correct.
The Chairman. Is your wife engaged in espionage as of
today?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. On the ground of the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know your wife's sister, Eleanor Glassman?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is she engaged in espionage, to your knowledge?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Did you while you were working at the Army Signal
Corps take classified contract information to which you had
access and give that to members of the Rosenberg espionage ring
for transmission to the Soviet Union?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. What are some of the major contract projects you
worked on when you were with the Federal Telecommunications
Laboratory?
Mr. Pataki. In almost all cases, I didn't know the final
use of the equipment I worked on.
Mr. Cohn. You worked on electronic equipment?
Mr. Pataki. Yes, sir; small parts.
Mr. Cohn. For the Signal Corps and other government
departments?
Mr. Pataki. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of them involve work in connection with
guided missiles?
Mr. Pataki. To the best of my knowledge and recollection,
no.
Mr. Cohn. Fire control?
Mr. Pataki. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't some of them involve fire control?
Mr. Pataki. As I have stated before, I seldom knew what the
ultimate use was.
Mr. Cohn. You knew it was classified ``Electronic, Pursuant
to Government Contract,'' but you didn't know the end use?
Mr. Pataki. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You will not tell us whether or not you were
stealing these secrets and giving them to the Rosenberg spy
ring?
Mr. Pataki. No, sir.
The Chairman. On the ground of the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Pataki. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. When in 1950 did you leave the laboratory?
Mr. Pataki. I believe it was in August.
Mr. Cohn. Under what circumstances? Did you resign or were
you fired?
Mr. Pataki. I resigned.
Mr. Cohn. Was there ever a loyalty charge brought against
you?
Mr. Pataki. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Not of any kind?
Mr. Pataki. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever visit the Evans Signal Laboratory at
Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Pataki. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever visit Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Pataki. No, not to my recollection.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in contact with members of the Communist
party working in the Evans Signal Laboratory at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Are you now in contact with persons working at
the Evans Signal Laboratory at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you think communists should be allowed to
teach in our schools, unless they admit that they are
Communists so that their students will know that they are being
taught by a Communist teacher?
Mr. Rabinowitz. May I have just a moment?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Pataki. I have never formed an opinion on that.
The Chairman. You do not have any opinion on that?
Mr. Pataki. No.
The Chairman. If the Communist party were to order you to
sabotage our defense or any of our defense installations in
case of war with Communist Russia, would you obey such an order
or would you refuse to obey it? By this question I am not
asking whether or not you are a Communist, but I am merely
asking you what you would do in case you got such an order from
the Communist party and you knew you were getting it from the
Communist party.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Pataki. May I have the question?
[The pending question was read by the reporter.]
Mr. Pataki. Without indicating any possibility of such an
order, as far as I am concerned I would not obey it.
The Chairman. You would refuse to obey it? Let me see if we
have this straight: You would refuse to obey any order from the
Communist party ordering you to sabotage any of our defense
installations in case of war with Communist Russia?
Mr. Pataki. Yes. As I said, I would like to be understood
that this answer does not mean that any such order would be a
possibility.
The Chairman. Do you think the Communist system of
government is better than ours?
Mr. Pataki. I haven't formed opinions on that subject,
either.
The Chairman. Have any of your students asked you questions
along that line, whether or not you thought our republican form
of government is better than the Communist form?
Mr. Pataki. I teach electrical engineering, and no other
subject ever comes up.
The Chairman. You haven't answered my question.
Mr. Pataki. I don't see the possibility of the question to
exist.
The Chairman. Well, have they or have they not?
Mr. Pataki. I beg your pardon?
The Chairman. Have they asked the question?
Mr. Pataki. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever discussed communism with your
students?
Mr. Pataki. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever solicited any of your students
to join the Communist party?
Mr. Pataki. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever attended any Communist meetings
which were also attended by your students?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. What is the answer?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer this last question.
The Chairman. Do you know any of your students who attend
Communist meetings?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. Who is the principal at Cooper Union? Who is
the principal of the school?
Mr. Pataki. There is no principal.
The Chairman. Who is the dean?
Mr. Pataki. Professor Towle, T-o-w-l-e.
The Chairman. We will call Professor Towle and tell him we
have a Fifth Amendment case here who refuses to tell whether he
is engaged in espionage today, whether he is still in contact
with the Rosenberg spy ring, and whether he is a Communist. If
he wants the record taken here today, that will be available to
him. He will have to pay the reporter the usual fee to get the
transcript.
We will tell him also that we are not asking this as an
order at all, but if he has no objection, we would appreciate
knowing whether or not he will take action against Fifth
Amendment cases of espionage and sabotage.
Does your wife work in Cooper Union also?
Mr. Pataki. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters living?
Mr. Pataki. Yes.
The Chairman. How many?
Mr. Pataki. One brother in this country.
The Chairman. Pardon me?
Mr. Pataki. One brother in this country.
The Chairman. What is his first name?
Mr. Pataki. Emery.
The Chairman. And his last name is Pataki?
Mr. Pataki. That is right.
The Chairman. What does he do?
Mr. Pataki. He is an engineer.
The Chairman. Who does he work for?
Mr. Pataki. Maxson's.
The Chairman. Do they do government work?
Mr. Pataki. I can't say for sure.
The Chairman. Where is that located?
Mr. Pataki. I don't know the exact address.
The Chairman. Is it in New York City?
Mr. Pataki. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know where, roughly?
Mr. Pataki. Around 34th Street.
The Chairman. That is the Maxson Corporation?
Mr. Pataki. That is right.
The Chairman. You don't know if they manufacture defense
material?
Mr. Pataki. I don't know for sure; I would say yes.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the company that makes machine guns?
Mr. Pataki. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Is your brother a Communist?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Is he a spy?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Where does his wife work?
Mr. Pataki. I don't believe she works.
The Chairman. Are your mother and father dead?
Mr. Pataki. My mother isn't.
The Chairman. She does not work, does she?
Mr. Pataki. No.
Mr. Cohn. Where does your brother reside?
Mr. Pataki. 257 West 86th Street, I believe.
The Chairman. Do you have any sisters?
Mr. Pataki. Not in this country.
The Chairman. Where were you born?
Mr. Pataki. In Hungary.
The Chairman. When were you naturalized?
Mr. Pataki. In 1944.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist then?
Mr. Pataki. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. You were asked whether you were a Communist.
Mr. Pataki. I don't believe so.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to consider yourself
under subpoena. There was some difficulty in contacting you the
last time, and your lawyer has indicated that that was not your
fault. It might have been the fault of the marshal. I do not
know whose fault it was, but in any event you are ordered to
contact your lawyer once a day so that we can merely call him
and make arrangements with him for you to appear.
Mr. Rabinowitz, may I say that since we have so many
witnesses in this case that if the day he is called it is
difficult for you to be here, let us know.
The Chairman. Will you stand up and raise your right hand.
In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Socol. I do.
The Chairman. I assume you are Samuel A. Neuburger, 76
Beaver Street, New York City.
TESTIMONY OF ALBERT SOCOL (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS ATTORNEY, SAMUEL
A. NEUBERGER)
Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name, Mr. Witness?
Mr. Socol. Albert Socol.
Mr. Cohn. How is your last name spelled?
Mr. Socol. S-o-c-o-l.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mr. Socol. 419 West End Avenue, Long Branch, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever worked for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the ground of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to answer whether you ever worked
there?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the ground of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Socol, during what years would the public
records indicate that a man named Albert Socol worked for the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Neuburger. It is understood that this would not be a
question that would be a waiver; you just want it for the
record.
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Socol. I worked about five and a half years.
Mr. Cohn. During what years?
Mr. Socol. 1942 to 1947.
Mr. Cohn. Was the work at Evans Signal Laboratory?
The Chairman. I understand he is answering these with the
understanding that this is merely to establish the public
record, and this will not be considered a waiver of his
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Socol. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Was the work at Evans Signal Laboratory?
Mr. Socol. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And the last question I want to ask is this: Up
to what classification were you cleared? What would the public
records indicate as to up to what classification you were
charged?
Mr. Socol. I believe that the only type of material I
handled was restricted.
Mr. Cohn. I wanted to know what his clearance was up to.
Now we will get to this: While you were working, Mr. Socol when
you were working for Evans Signal Laboratory, were you a member
of the Communist party?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. When working for Evans Signal Laboratory at Fort
Monmouth, were you engaged in espionage against the United
States?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. While working at the Evans Signal Laboratory,
were you a member of the Communist spy ring?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer, on the ground of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the ground of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the ground of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Were you engaged in espionage activities with
Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the ground previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Socol. I refuse to answer on the ground of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work, by the way?
Mr. Socol. I work in New Jersey; Farmdale, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. What type of work?
Mr. Socol. I am an office manager.
Mr. Cohn. In what kind of a company?
Mr. Socol. It is a poultry association.
Mr. Cohn. Do they have any government contracts?
Mr. Socol. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. They do no business with the government directly
or indirectly?
Mr. Socol. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have refused to answer a sizable number
of questions under the Fifth Amendment. I assume you are
refusing because you feel that your answers to those questions,
if you made an answer, might tend to incriminate you.
Mr. Socol. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Neuburger, the witness will remain under
subpoena, and we will get him not by bothering you but by
calling you.
Mr. Neuburger. Are these for public hearings, Mr. Cohn?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. In this
matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Crevisky. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH K. CREVISKY (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
FRANK SCHIENER)
Mr. Cohn. May we get the name of counsel.
Mr. Schiener. Frank Schiener, S-c-h-i-e-n-e-r, 401
Broadway, New York City. My phone number is Worth 2-6851.
Mr. Cohn. I don't think that you have appeared before the
committee before, Mr. Schiener. The rules of the committee are
that you may not participate in the proceedings. However, any
time that your client desires to confer with you, he may do so.
He may confer with you after any question is asked. At any time
he may confer with you in strict privacy.
You understand that, Mr. Crevisky?
Mr. Crevisky. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, may we have your name?
Mr. Crevisky. Joseph Crevisky C-r-e-v-i-s-k-y.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside?
Mr. Crevisky. 45 MacDougal Street, New York City.
Mr. Cohn. Were you born in this country?
Mr. Crevisky. I was.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Crevisky, were you ever connected with the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Crevisky. I wish to decline to answer that question,
and I would like to state the reasons for that. In answer to
any question that I decline to answer before this committee, I
think that I am standing on my constitutional rights. When I
say that I am referring to each and every part of the
Constitution, including each and every right and privilege
accorded me or available to me under the First, the Fifth, and
the Ninth Amendments to the Constitution. I regard this hearing
with apprehension for my own liberty and my own freedom, and I
feel not only for myself as a person but for my right of
freedom of expression and freedom of speech for myself and for
my associates and the people as a whole.
Mr. Cohn. Do you feel that an answer to this last question
might tend to incriminate you under the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Crevisky. I have stated the reasons for refusing.
Mr. Cohn. The position of the chair has been that the
committee does not recognize and the law does not recognize any
privilege other than the privilege to refuse to answer under
the Fifth Amendment if you feel, honestly, that the answer
might tend to incriminate you. If you assert that privilege,
that will be recognized by the chair. Otherwise, you will be
directed to answer the question.
Mr. Crevisky. No, I will stand on the previous answer which
states the reasons for my refusal to answer.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer. You are
ordered to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Unless you assert the Fifth Amendment privilege.
You can confer with counsel.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Crevisky. Well, I wish to stand on the answer which
includes the assertion of the Fifth Amendment, as I chose to do
so, and also the First and Ninth Amendments. I have asserted
the Fifth Amendment in a manner in which I intended to do.
The Chairman. The chair must determine whether or not you
are entitled to the Fifth Amendment privilege, and I must
determine whether or not you will be ordered to answer. I
cannot make that determination unless you first tell me whether
or not you feel that the answer to the question might tend to
incriminate you. I will now ask that very simple question: Do
you feel that if you were to answer counsel's question that the
answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Crevisky. I can only stand on my statement of my reason
to decline to answer the question, which includes invoking my
rights--all of my rights--under the First, the Fifth, and the
Ninth Amendments.
The Chairman. You are refusing to tell me whether or not
you feel that an answer to counsel's question might tend to
incriminate you?
Mr. Crevisky. I wish to stand on my previous reason for
declining to answer.
The Chairman. Are you refusing to tell me at this time
whether you feel that an answer to counsel's question might
tend to incriminate you? Either you are refusing to tell me
that or you are not. I would suggest that you consult with
counsel. [The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Cohn. Would you answer the question?
Mr. Crevisky. Just a moment.
Well, if you mean by that question am I invoking my
constitutional right in a criminal case not to be a witness
against myself, then the answer is yes.
The Chairman. I will ask you this question: Do you feel
that the answer to counsel's question might tend to incriminate
you?
Mr. Crevisky. I can only stand on the previous answer that
I gave, and the one that I have just stated.
The Chairman. May the record show that the chair has given
the witness an opportunity and a sizable number of occasions to
tell the chair whether or not he feels that an answer would
tend to incriminate him. The chair's position is that unless he
answers that question, he is not entitled to the privilege of
the Fifth Amendment, and especially so in view of his rather
garbled reliance upon provisions of the Constitution which can
have no conceivable connection to his testimony here today.
He has relied, for example, on the Volstead Act, among
other things, and he says all of the provisions of the
Constitution. Therefore, in view of this garbled and confused
statement he has made about relying, as I say, upon all
provisions in the Constitution, before I can know whether or
not he is entitled to the Fifth Amendment privilege I must have
an answer to the simple question of whether or not he feels his
answer would incriminate him. He has refused to give me that
answer. He is therefore ordered to answer counsel's question.
So that the witness cannot plead ignorance at a subsequent
legal proceeding or before a grand jury, and so he cannot claim
he was entrapped before this committee, I will inform him at
this time that if he fails to answer, I will submit the case
for contempt proceedings and for an indictment.
What is the next question, counsel?
Mr. Schiener. May I be heard?
The Chairman. You cannot be heard. You may consult with
your client.
This is a committee rule passed unanimously by all of the
members of the committee: that counsel will not be heard and
take part in a proceeding. If he has anything to say to the
committee or to the chair, he can do it through his client. If
you have any objection, you can do it through your client. For
that reason, you can very freely discuss with him at any time.
May I also say, Mr. Counsel, that you need not wait for him
to call upon you for advice. If you feel that he needs advice,
you just proceed to tap him on the shoulder and give it to him.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Schiener. May I suggest that if you ask your question
again, Senator, you will get an answer perhaps that will
satisfy you.
The Chairman. Mr. Witness, the question is whether or not
you feel an answer to counsel's question might tend to
incriminate you.
Mr. Crevisky. I will answer that question.
The Chairman. You are entitled to the privilege. Can we
assume without going through this long, drawn out procedure
that just takes up your time and your counsel's time and our
time--can we operate on the assumption that whenever you invoke
the Fifth Amendment that you are doing so on the ground that
you yourself feel that your answer might tend to incriminate
you? Is that correct?
Mr. Schiener. That is right, if you ask me.
You had better make the record clear that that is your
answer.
Mr. Crevisky. All right, that is right.
Mr. Cohn. When you were with the Signal Corps, were you a
member of the Communist party?
Mr. Crevisky. I decline to answer that question on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Cohn. When you were with the Signal Corps, were you
engaged in espionage for the Communist party?
Mr. Crevisky. I will discuss that with my counsel.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Crevisky. I decline to answer that question on the
grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. You worked from 1942 to when?
Mr. Crevisky. I decline to answer that question on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Crevisky. I decline to answer those questions on the
grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. You may be refusing under the fear that you
may waive the privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
We will have the record show that the witness has been
asked questions about the years of his employment at the Signal
Corps and that he has expressed some concern for fear he may be
waiving the Fifth Amendment. The chair has assured him that if
he answers those questions, there will be considered no waiver
of the privilege.
Mr. Schiener. I thought that you mentioned the years of his
employment in the army, or rather, service in the army. He has
not admitted being employed by the Signal Corps. I might state
off the record that I don't think you have any understanding--
----
Mr. Crevisky. Am I answering the question off the record or
with my constitutional privilege?
The Chairman. It is on the record. I merely assured you
that in case your lawyer was disturbed for fear you would be
wavering the Fifth Amendment privilege by answering the
question as to the years of your employment and where you
worked, that you now have the chair's assurance that that will
not be considered any waiver of any Fifth Amendment privilege.
I might say----
Mr. Crevisky. I would appreciate it if you would clarify
it.
The Chairman. In the first place, you don't have a Fifth
Amendment privilege as to that--it is a matter of public
record--and I was trying to save some time. The question is,
Did you ever work in the Signal Corps?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Crevisky. Well, I am not familiar with what is a matter
of public record. I will assert my privilege.
The Chairman. You are refusing to answer whether you ever
worked for the Signal Corps, the Army Signal Corps? You are
refusing to answer that?
Mr. Crevisky. Yes, I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. On the grounds that you feel that your answer
might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Crevisky. I include that among my reasons, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Are you at this time a paid functionary of the
Communist party?
Mr. Crevisky. I decline to answer that question.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
The Chairman. During the past week, have you been in touch
with any espionage agents?
Mr. Crevisky. I will consult my counsel.
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Crevisky. I will decline to answer that question on the
grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. Have you been in contact with any espionage
agents within the past three months who are presently working
at the Signal Corps Laboratories at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Crevisky. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds stated.
The Chairman. You are not teaching school anywhere now, are
you?
[The witness conferred with his counsel.]
Mr. Crevisky. No, I am not teaching school now.
The Chairman. That is all. You will consider yourself under
subpoena, and your counsel will be notified when you are wanted
again.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. In this
matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Giardina. I do.
TESTIMONY OF IGNATIUS GIARDINA
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Giardina, do you work at Arma Company?
Mr. Giardina. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What is your position?
Mr. Giardina. I am a supervisor.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you worked
there?
Mr. Giardina. About six years.
Mr. Cohn. Does that company handle any government work?
Mr. Giardina. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What branch of service?
Mr. Giardina. We do all types of instrument work.
Mr. Cohn. For the army?
Mr. Giardina. For the army, navy, and air force.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do any Signal Corps work?
Mr. Giardina. No.
Mr. Cohn. You do work for the army?
Mr. Giardina. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know David Greenglass?
Mr. Giardina. Well, he was one of my men.
Mr. Cohn. You knew him?
Mr. Giardina. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. He worked under you?
Mr. Giardina. As a mechanic I knew him.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him socially at all?
Mr. Giardina. No, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man by the name of Gunnar Boye, G-
u-n-n-a-r B-o-y-e?
Mr. Giardina. He is my lead man.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether or not Gunnar Boye now or
ever was a Communist?
Mr. Giardina. No.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know that, to this day?
Mr. Giardina. No.
Mr. Cohn. Does he have security clearance, and can he work
on classified material?
Mr. Giardina. No; only security material and not
classified.
The Chairman. You mean security material would mean
classified material?
Mr. Giardina. Yes. I am sorry, I am a bit hard of hearing.
Mr. Carr. How well did you know Boye, or do you know Boye?
Mr. Giardina. I think he is a mechanic.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever known him outside of the shop?
Mr. Giardina. No.
Mr. Carr. How long has he been there?
Mr. Giardina. He has been with me since 1949, July of 1949.
Mr. Carr. You didn't have any idea he was a Communist or
had been a Communist?
Mr. Giardina. No.
Mr. Carr. Did he ever indicate during the period he worked
in your shop that he was active in the American Labor party?
Mr. Giardina. Well, the only time I heard that is when he
mentioned it to me. He told me he was here, and that is all.
Mr. Carr. Before that, you had never heard it?
Mr. Giardina. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. This is only a week or so ago?
Mr. Giardina. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Before that, you never heard anything about it?
Mr. Giardina. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Would you say what type of material he does work
on, and what physical type of material, and what does he make?
Mr. Giardina. Machine parts, that is all.
Mr. Carr. None of it is classified?
Mr. Giardina. No.
Mr. Carr. You do not know what the parts are for?
Mr. Giardina. The parts aren't classified; I think they are
not.
The Chairman. Apparently, you may not understand what we
mean by ``classified.'' Is the general public entitled to come
in and look at the work he is doing?
Mr. Giardina. Oh, no.
The Chairman. They can't?
Mr. Giardina. No.
The Chairman. Then it is classified.
Mr. Giardina. Then it is classified.
Mr. Carr. Well, do you know what the ultimate use of these
parts is? Do you yourself know what happens to these parts and
what they are for?
Mr. Giardina. No, I do strictly machine work; that is all.
Mr. Carr. That is, strictly making parts?
Mr. Giardina. We manufacture parts, that is all.
Mr. Carr. You don't know what happens to them?
Mr. Giardina. I don't know what happens to them.
Mr. Carr. Is this on government contract?
Mr. Giardina. It is a government contract. It is all work
for the government.
The Chairman. You don't know whether those parts are parts
of bomb sights or parts of guns or parts of radar equipment;
all you know is that you get the specifications and you
manufacture the article, is that right?
Mr. Giardina. That is right.
The Chairman. And the defense material that you manufacture
is of such a nature that the general public is excluded from
the plant, is that right?
Mr. Giardina. That is right.
The Chairman. Are there guards at the doors of the gates?
Mr. Giardina. Yes, we have gates; and we have a very
efficient plant guard system.
The Chairman. Did you ever see anything stamped secret or
top secret or confidential?
Mr. Giardina. No, never.
Mr. Carr. You say you don't know Gunnar Boye very well?
Mr. Giardina. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. You never associated with him outside?
Mr. Giardina. No, sir; I never have time for myself. Let us
put it that way.
Mr. Carr. And your association with Greenglass was the
same?
Mr. Giardina. Yes.
Mr. Carr. That is, you knew Greenglass only in the plant?
Mr. Giardina. That is right.
Mr. Carr. You never visited at his home at all?
Mr. Giardina. Never.
Mr. Carr. Are you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Giardina. No, of course not.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever been a member of the American Labor
party?
Mr. Giardina. No.
Mr. Carr. Did Boye have in the plant American Labor party
material? Did you ever find that in his plant?
Mr. Giardina. I am sorry, I can't hear.
Mr. Carr. Did Boye ever bring into the plant literature of
the American Labor party?
Mr. Giardina. Not to my knowledge, never. As a supervisor,
I never permit any intermingling or discussions to take place.
I execute that down. In fact, as far as I know, there has never
been any discussions while I have been there because I forbid
it.
Mr. Cohn. That is all.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand. In this
matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Schnee. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LEON SCHNEE
Mr. Cohn. Could we have your full name?
Mr. Schnee. Leon Schnee, S-c-h-n-e-e.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Schnee. Litho-Print Company.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you worked there?
Mr. Schnee. I am there for about f