    [Senate Hearing 119-384]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                          S. Hrg. 119-384

                     PROGRAMS FOR JUSTICE-INVOLVED VETERANS
    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                 APRIL 15, 2026

                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    63-515 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2026
    =======================================================================

                     SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         Jerry Moran, Kansas, Chairman
    John Boozman, Arkansas               Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut,
    Bill Cassidy, Louisiana                  Ranking Member
    Thom Tillis, North Carolina          Patty Murray, Washington
    Dan Sullivan, Alaska                 Bernard Sanders, Vermont
    Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee          Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii
    Kevin Cramer, North Dakota           Margaret Wood Hassan, New
    Tommy Tuberville, Alabama                Hampshire
    Jim Banks, Indiana                   Angus S. King, Jr., Maine
    Tim Sheehy, Montana                  Tammy Duckworth, Illinois
                                         Ruben Gallego, Arizona
                                         Elissa Slotkin, Michigan

                         David Shearman, Staff Director
                    Tony McClain, Democratic Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                 April 15, 2026

                                    SENATORS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Jerry Moran, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Kansas.............     1
    Hon. Richard Blumenthal, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from
      Connecticut....................................................    11
    Hon. Thom Tillis, U.S. Senator from North Carolina...............    13
    Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii...................    15
    Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.......    16
    Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine.................    19
    Hon. Jim Banks, U.S. Senator from Indiana........................    30

                                   WITNESSES
                                    Panel I

    Clyde ``Butch'' Tate II, Major General, U.S. Army (Ret.), Chief
      Counsel, All Rise..............................................     3

    The Honorable Lawton Nuss, Chief Justice (Ret.), Kansas Supreme
      Court..........................................................     5

    Corey Schramm, Veteran, U.S. Army................................     6

    David ``Mac'' MacEwen, Brigadier General, U.S. Army (Ret.),
      Director, Veterans Justice Commission, Council on Criminal
      Justice........................................................     8

    Rose Carmen Goldberg, Associate Teaching Professor and Director
      of the Veterans Clinic, University of Washington School of Law.     9

                                    Panel II

    Dana DiGiacomo, Assistant Director, Reentry Services Division,
      Federal Bureau of Prisons, U.S. Department of Justice..........    26

    Thomas O'Toole, MD, Acting Assistant Under Secretary for Health
      for Clinical Services, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.....    27

                                    APPENDIX
                              Prepared Statements

    Clyde ``Butch'' Tate II, Major General, U.S. Army (Ret.), Chief
      Counsel, All Rise..............................................    39

    The Honorable Lawton Nuss, Chief Justice (Ret.), Kansas Supreme
      Court..........................................................    44

    Corey Schramm, Veteran, U.S. Army................................    47

    David ``Mac'' MacEwen, Brigadier General, U.S. Army (Ret.),
      Director, Veterans Justice Commission, Council on Criminal
      Justice........................................................    49

    Rose Carmen Goldberg, Associate Teaching Professor and Director
      of the Veterans Clinic, University of Washington School of Law.   131

    Dana DiGiacomo, Assistant Director, Reentry Services Division,
      Federal Bureau of Prisons, U.S. Department of Justice..........   139

    Thomas O'Toole, MD, Acting Assistant Under Secretary for Health
      for Clinical Services, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.....   142

                            Questions for the Record

    Department of Veterans Affairs response to questions submitted
      by:

      Hon. Richard Blumenthal........................................   147

                            Statement for the Record

    Manuel ``Manny'' Gomez, U.S. Navy Veteran, IAVA Cavalry Member...   151

                                  PROGRAMS FOR
                           JUSTICE-INVOLVED VETERANS

                                  ----------

                           WEDNESDAY, APRIL 15, 2026

                                           U.S. Senate,
                                Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:38 p.m., in
    Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Jerry Moran,
    Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

        Present: Senators Moran, Tillis, Banks, Sheehy, Blumenthal,
    Hirono, Hassan, and King.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,
                   CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS

        Chairman Moran. Everyone, welcome to the Senate Committee
    on Veterans' Affairs hearing today. I'm excited about the
    hearing that we're having. It's one I don't think we've--this
    topic is not one that has received a lot of attention. I'm glad
    it is at least receiving more today, and I thank our witnesses.
    Got enough room? Everybody good? Okay. I thank our witnesses
    for being here.
        I especially want to welcome two of my friends from my law
    school days. Both have had significant careers since we
    graduated. Major General ``Butch'' Tate, who is one of our
    witnesses today, and is one of the drivers of veterans courts
    in our state, along with the former chief justice of the Kansas
    Supreme Court, Lawton Nuss. Again, these two are the folks I
    know best when it comes to these issues, and they are
    relentless on behalf of veterans and veteran justice.
        All of our witnesses provide examples of why we should work
    to support veterans when they transition out of the military,
    and the value they add to communities and our country. After
    their service, when their transition goes well, all of us do
    that. We need to make certain that the veterans who carry scars
    of unhealed wounds, of visible and invisible, are not
    forgotten. When left untreated, these can often lead or
    contribute to veterans' involvement in the criminal justice
    system. According to the Veterans Justice Commission,
    represented today by General MacEwen, 31 percent of veterans
    report having been arrested at least once in their lives,
    compared to only 18 percent of the general population. Veterans
    with PTSD or TBI diagnosis are more than 50 percent more likely
    to experience criminal justice involvement.
        While there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this
    problem, I am encouraged by the array of community-based
    programs supporting justice-involved veterans and their
    families. I'm particularly supportive of the Veterans Treatment
    Court (VTC) models since Johnson County, a Kansas--it's a
    suburb of the Kansas side of Kansas City, opened its first
    veteran treatment court in 2016, and an additional five Kansas
    counties have followed suit. And I'm looking forward to hearing
    about the impressive journey that one Kansan, one veteran court
    graduate, Corey Schramm, who's with us here today, I'm
    interested in hearing his story. Thank you, Corey, for making
    the trip, and thanks to your team from Johnson County in
    joining you here today.
        According to All Rise, represented here by Chief Counsel
    General Tate, the average national completion rate for
    treatment courts is nearly 60 percent. Approximately, two-
    thirds higher than probation, and more than twice the rate of
    probationers with substance use disorders. This data
    demonstrates that the cases of justice-involved veterans are
    best handled by experts who understand that a veteran's
    experience is different than that of a civilian.
        Veterans Treatment Courts are tangible investments in those
    who served our country, and the results that we've seen speak
    for themselves. I will continue to prioritize federal support
    for Veterans Treatment Courts in this Committee, as well as my
    role in the Senate Appropriations Committee. This year, the
    annual CJS appropriation, we provided--that bill provided $4
    million to the Department of Justice to establish the National
    Center for Veterans Justice. Through the National Center, I
    hope to see veterans in Kansas and across the country benefit
    from a coordinated DOJ resource designed to improve the
    outcomes of justice-involved veterans by closing the gap
    between research, policy, and the front line of practice.
        This afternoon, we'll discuss where Congress, DOJ, VA, and
    local communities where they've made strides in delivering on
    these promises that we've made to those who served. We'll also
    discuss where the improvements are needed to make programs
    stronger, more sustainable, and more successful by putting the
    veteran first.
        I was encouraged to see DOJ's March release of a notice of
    funding availability for Veteran Treatment Courts, followed by
    their commitment to brief the Committee on both their plans for
    the establishment of the National Center and the technical
    assistance funding to support the training of treatment court
    staff and their partners nationwide. These developments reflect
    a welcome focus on justice-involved veteran community. I look
    forward to hearing from federal, state, and local partners that
    are here with us today, and to learn more about how this
    Committee can support them.
        I'm going to--at this point, I normally yield to the
    Ranking Member, Senator Blumenthal. He's on his way. He will be
    here. He'll say his opening statement for that arrival. And let
    me introduce the panel. Testifying on today's first panel is
    Major General Clyde ``Butch'' Tate, retired, chief counsel of
    All Rise; Kansas Supreme Court Chief Justice Lawton Nuss,
    retired--there's a message here to me----
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman Moran [continuing]. As well as Corey Schramm, a
    veteran of the U.S. Army; Brigadier General David MacEwen,
    retired, director of Veterans Justice Commission; and Rose
    Carmen Goldberg, associate teaching professor, and director of
    the Veterans Clinic at the University of Washington School of
    Law.
        General Tate, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                                PANEL I

                                  ----------

          STATEMENT OF CLYDE ``BUTCH'' TATE II, MAJOR GENERAL,
               U.S. ARMY (RET.), CHIEF COUNSEL, ALL RISE

        General Tate. Chair Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and
    distinguished Members of the Senate Committee on Veterans'
    Affairs, it's an honor to testify today.
        Senator Moran, we thank you and the Committee for
    recognizing that while saying, ``Thank you for your service,''
    is important and appreciated, as a Nation, we must follow those
    words with the actions necessary to meet our core national
    obligation to care for our veterans. I'm honored to be here
    with this panel of veterans, innovators, thought leaders in our
    justice system, and especially Mr. Corey Schramm, an Army
    veteran who has witnessed our justice system at its very best.
        I'm a proud Army veteran, and equally proud to be the son
    of a 36-year combat-wounded Army infantryman who taught me how
    to take care of soldiers and their family members. It's a
    lesson that I hope I took both into the Army, and my life after
    the Army. A few months after joining All Rise as its chief
    counsel, I was visiting courts, training on best practices,
    speaking with stakeholders, and listening to veterans and their
    families, I realized then, and to this day strongly believe,
    that Veterans Treatment Courts showcase our government,
    judiciary, and communities at their very finest.
        To be sure, the vast majority of veterans thrive because of
    their military service. For many of us, it was the most
    rewarding time of our professional life, despite--or maybe
    because of its hardships and sacrifices. Yet, for a small
    percentage of our veterans, however, their experiences; the
    sights, the sounds, the events, the memories, the resulting
    trauma, the attempts to bury that trauma, are too much to
    overcome without help. Without our help, they are left behind,
    and some who straggle behind engage in increasingly risky
    behavior that puts them at the crossroads of the criminal
    justice system. In society, just like any military formation,
    you can only move as fast as your slowest runner. And like the
    military, we cannot and should not accept leaving someone
    behind.
        Today, as we move toward programs that provide solutions,
    let's be mindful that those veterans challenged by their
    service do not want to be seen as a percentage on a
    spreadsheet. They and their families are real people, who are
    in that very small segment of society, who chose to serve us,
    but who have experienced circumstances that altered who they
    are, how they think, and how they act.
        So, what do we do? I submit that as a Nation, we have a
    choice, and I hope we can learn from how we chose to treat my
    father's generation of Vietnam War and Vietnam-era veterans,
    and do better. That is, choose to implement programs structured
    to consider and address the unique experiences and
    circumstances of veterans, including those in our criminal
    justice system.
        The choice we make must be multifaceted and include
    Veterans Treatment Courts with the person-centered care they
    provide. Veterans Treatment Courts transform the way our system
    identifies, assesses, and treats veterans in the justice
    system, and assembles the resources and parties to directly
    serve veterans--and these courts work. Beyond the dedication
    and commitment of all involved, these courts work because they
    are multidisciplinary and non-adversarial, merging resources
    and stakeholders into a singular effort. They work because they
    are trained to follow key components and evidence-based
    practices. They are treatment- and accountability-focused.
    Public safety matters.
        Now, the community partners: housing, employment,
    counseling, transportation, education, pro bono legal clinics,
    and others are as key to making these courts work as the
    judges, prosecutors, defense counsel, law enforcement,
    probation supervision clinicians, veterans justice outreach
    (VJO) employees of the VA, and importantly, volunteer veteran
    mentors, the latter being our secret sauce.
        Now, like many complex challenges, there's no one solution
    fits all. That's why we are excited that today, in addition to
    Veterans Treatment Courts, there's yet another path forward to
    improve outcomes for our veterans, because of the congressional
    support for the National Center for Veterans Justice. We are
    excited at the possibilities of the Center. We are also excited
    about the synergy when current and future programs, such as
    Veterans Treatment Courts, law school veterans support clinics,
    and university-wide student veteran centers are located in
    proximity to each other, to make it less challenging for a
    veteran to receive the support they need.
        As I conclude--and I hope you'll indulge me one final
    military analogy to highlight the critical aspect of the path
    forward for current and future programs. There's a theme
    running through each of the programs and participants I've
    mentioned, including court teams, law enforcement, veteran
    mentors, VJOs, and that is the importance of training and
    expert assistance to the overall success of each. Military
    units, for example, may have personnel who are mission-
    focused--the best equipment and technology, SOPs, tactics,
    skilled and experienced leadership, but to succeed, all units
    must be trained.
        And the proficiency gained from training can't be one and
    done. Success must be sustained. If we leave success to chance,
    we are not making the choice that will improve outcomes. As the
    data shows, training and technical assistance will improve
    graduation rates, which leads to decreased recidivism, and to
    the very reason that we are all assembled here today, and that
    is to improve the outcomes for justice-involved veterans.
        Chair, thank you again for your time, for convening this
    hearing, and for helping ensure that as a Nation, we make the
    right choice. Thank you.

        [The prepared statement of General Tate appears on pages
    39-43 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Chief Justice Nuss.

      STATEMENT OF HON. LAWTON NUSS, CHIEF JUSTICE (RET.), KANSAS
                             SUPREME COURT

        Mr. Nuss. A combat veteran told me he would have been
    better off being killed in Afghanistan, instead of coming home
    and being arrested for committing a civilian crime. As he
    described his shame to me, ``I went from hero to villain.''
    This justice-involved veteran suffered from unhealed PTSD. As
    has been said about such veterans, the painful paradox is, that
    fighting for one's country can render one unfit to be its
    citizen. Fortunately, this veteran later became one of the
    first graduates of the Veterans Treatment Court, VTC, in
    Johnson County, Kansas. And I'll talk more about this and other
    Kansas VTCs, because our experience could be a model for how
    other jurisdictions establish new VTCs and enhance existing
    ones.
        Before doing that, let me say I'm a Marine Corps veteran,
    and, as was mentioned, I'm the former Chief Justice of the
    Kansas Supreme Court. What has not been said is that I left the
    court with three years remaining in my term, so I could devote
    more time to help my fellow veterans. Chairman Moran, Ranking
    Member Blumenthal, and Members of the Senate Committee on
    Veterans' Affairs, I'm honored to speak before you today in
    both of those capacities.
        Now, to begin, in 2015 Kansas had no VTCs. Today, we have
    six, and we are working to establish more. Johnson County was
    our first one. Now, some people insisted that because it is our
    state's wealthiest county, that only a few of its veteran
    residents could possibly have committed crimes. Until the
    sheriff was called, and he said 60 of his inmates were
    veterans. That fact helped expose the need for a VTC.
        Another VTC obstacle was funding. I had to tell judges the
    judicial branch had no funds available, but these and other
    creators agreed to take on extra, unpaid work and opened the
    first Kansas VTC in 2016. It has been thriving ever since,
    thanks in substantial part to later grants from the Bureau of
    Justice Assistance (BJA). So, we thank Congress for these
    appropriations.
        How do we know this VTC has been thriving? Well, consider
    that 89 veterans have graduated from this program, and only
    five of them have been arrested for committing later crimes.
    That means 84 have been rehabilitated, a nearly 95 percent
    success rate. 84 people who returned to being contributing
    members of their families, local communities, and American
    society.
        So, how did Kansas get five more VTCs? Well, for starters,
    this VTC encourages all those who are considering one, to come
    watch their court proceedings. There, the visitors also talk
    one-on-one with their peers, for example, the VTC judge with
    the visiting judge, and the VTC probation officer with the
    visiting probation officer. Along with that, this VTC tells
    these visitors just how beneficial All Rise's training and
    technical assistance had been for it, and will be for their
    future VTCs. I participated in three of those training sessions
    years before joining the All Rise board of directors, and I can
    independently confirm their worth.
        Also, BJA funding is helping to expand our VTCs statewide.
    The judicial branch's specialty court program manager gets All
    Rise's notices of BJA funding opportunities and, after
    informing all courts, she and her grant writer help the
    responding courts apply for these grants to establish and
    enhance VTCs. The judicial branch also hosts a statewide
    specialty court conference each fall. Additionally, a Supreme
    Court justice serves as liaison to the specialty courts. Either
    she, or I, or both attend the opening and graduation ceremonies
    of our VTCs, and people like Chairman Moran and Congresswoman
    Sharice Davids accept our speaking invitations there. So, word
    spreads of the Supreme Court's ongoing support of VTCs.
        We also emphasize the obvious money saved by avoiding
    incarceration and keeping a veteran in the community under
    court supervision, which promotes their rehabilitation. Without
    this opportunity, we face the resultant financial costs of
    future incarceration for their new crimes. We also face the
    hidden costs of these new crimes, such as the extra time and
    burdens imposed on those working in the criminal justice
    system.
        In response to such information, last fall our newest VTC
    was created in Douglas County, the home of the University of
    Kansas, also known as KU. And there, the VTC joined two
    existing KU veteran-helping entities to form the Kansas
    Trifecta. One is the KU Law School's Veterans Legal Support
    Clinic, and thanks to your Committee chair, this clinic was
    created with federal funding and provides free legal services
    to veterans across the state.
        The third in the trifecta is the Lt. Gen. William K. Jones
    Military-Affiliated Student Center where students, including
    current and former military and their families, can come for
    services such as support from the VA's VetSuccess on Campus
    program, and guidance and answers regarding the GI Bill and VA
    benefits, all while enjoying the camaraderie of a familiar
    military-connected environment. The trifecta entities can share
    information and refer clients to one another when necessary.
        To conclude, I thank you all again on behalf of my fellow
    veterans.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Nuss appears on pages 44-46
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Justice, thank you very much. Now, to Mr.
    Schramm.

             STATEMENT OF COREY SCHRAMM, VETERAN, U.S. ARMY

        Mr. Schramm. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and
    Members of the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs, thank you
    for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Corey
    Schramm, I'm a husband and a father of two great kids, and I'm
    a proud veteran of the United States Army. Today, I serve as an
    adult case manager at the Johnson County Mental Health Center,
    and a member of the Johnson County Criminal Justice Advisory
    Council. I am also a grateful graduate of the Johnson County
    Veterans Treatment Court.
        After 9/11, I joined the Army and deployed to Iraq three
    times. I am proud of my service. In Iraq, we had structure and
    routine. We knew we had each other's backs, and the mission
    kept us focused. Back home, I was still learning how to be a
    husband and a father. Just when I felt I was beginning to build
    a relationship with my daughter, I would have to leave again. I
    understand now that my drinking and drug use was my way of
    coping with a life I didn't know how to live. In June 2020,
    things came to a breaking point. I spent five hours in a
    destructive episode at my house involving a weapon. I have no
    memory of the incident, but I woke up charged with a felony and
    facing incarceration. I didn't know if I would even be welcome
    back in my home again.
        This is where my story of recovery begins. A Veterans
    Justice Outreach specialist with the VA is who introduced me to
    the Veterans Treatment Court. Veterans Treatment Court changed
    my life and the life of my wife and children. My first day in
    Veterans Treatment Court happened to be a graduation ceremony.
    I watched veterans with similar backgrounds as mine hug the
    judge and thank the police officers who had arrested them. They
    were applauded and thanked for their service. It was like
    nothing I'd ever seen.
        The program gave me structure, accountability, and support.
    I knew where I needed to be and what was expected of me, and
    for the first time since leaving the military, I felt like part
    of a unit again. I received community-based services and VA
    care, including treatment and group therapy, and I started to
    see a future for myself and my family. The Veterans Treatment
    Court was with me every step of the way. When I needed help,
    they were there to provide it. When I stumbled, they held me
    accountable. One of the most important parts of my journey was
    my mentor, Navy veteran and retired Rear Admiral Ed Phillips,
    who is here with me today. He stood by me every step of the way
    and showed me what recovery could look like.
        Through the VA Vocational Rehabilitation Program, I went
    back to school and got an associate's degree in addiction
    counseling. I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my
    daughter doing our homework together, it was one of the small
    moments that helped us rebuild our relationship. This year, my
    wife and I will celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary, and we
    will also be taking our daughter to college at K-State, Kansas
    State University. My son and I are about to attend our sixth
    consecutive year attending NASCAR races at the Kansas Speedway.
        I was nervous to graduate, but the program prepared me for
    this challenge. I am sharing my story today because there are
    countless veterans who do not have access to Veterans Treatment
    Courts. Veterans Treatment Courts are not a shortcut; these
    programs are rigorous. They demand honesty, discipline, and a
    willingness to change. But they work.
        As you consider the future of Veterans Treatment Courts, I
    urge you to continue supporting and expanding these programs,
    because behind every statistic is a veteran like myself;
    someone who served, who struggled, and who, with the right
    combination of accountability and support, can find their way
    back. Or, as Ed would say, ``Get your good name back.''
        Thank you for the opportunity to share my story. I look
    forward to your questions.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Schramm appears on pages 47-
    48 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. On the anniversary and off to college, and
    gratitude and expression of our support and thanks to the
    Admiral. General MacEwen, you are now recognized.

      STATEMENT OF DAVID ``MAC'' MACEWEN, BRIGADIER GENERAL, U.S.
    ARMY (RET.), DIRECTOR, VETERANS JUSTICE COMMISSION, COUNCIL ON
                            CRIMINAL JUSTICE

        General MacEwen. Thank you, Chairman Moran, Ranking Member
    Blumenthal, and Members of the Committee. I'm Matt MacEwen, I
    served in the Army for 33 years, and retired 11 years ago as
    the Adjutant General of the Army. I'm here today representing
    the Council on Criminal Justice, where I serve as the Director
    of the Veterans Justice Commission. The Council is an
    independent, nonpartisan think tank and invitational membership
    organization that advances the understanding of the Nation's
    criminal justice policy choices and builds consensus for
    solutions.
        In 2022, the Council assembled the Commission to figure out
    why so many men and women who have served our country are
    winding up in the criminal justice system. It issued 11
    recommendations and several research publications. I've
    submitted the details of all the recommendations in my written
    testimony. Each year, about 200,000 service members leave the
    military. Most transition successfully, but some face
    challenges.
        Veterans are more likely than nonveterans to be arrested,
    and tens of thousands are incarcerated. This involvement is
    often driven by combat-related trauma, traumatic brain injury,
    loss of benefits, and gaps in identification and intervention.
    The way we currently manage struggling veterans undermines
    recruitment, jeopardizes the health and safety of our veterans,
    their families, their communities, and ultimately, national
    security.
        The Commission made several recommendations for changes at
    the Pentagon. One, creating an Under Secretary of Transition to
    mitigate the issues of fragmented delivery of services and
    creating accountability in one office. Two, creating a
    validated risk-needs assessment that identifies service members
    at the highest risk for post-transition problems, and
    incorporating evidence-based rehabilitative practices into the
    management of disciplinary and other performance issues. And
    three, establishing a network of joint transition centers,
    residential programs aligned with VA facilities to assist
    higher-risk service members before they leave service.
        A critical element of the Commission's plan addressed what
    we refer to as the ``commanders dilemma'', the tension
    commanders face between maintaining unit readiness versus
    supporting underperforming service members or supporting
    transition. To prioritize operational readiness, commanders
    look for the fastest way to replace service members who are not
    available for unit transition, disciplinary, or medical
    reasons. A commander may not have the flexibility to allow an
    individual to participate in congressionally mandated TAP, or
    receive evidence-based support for the kinds of minor
    disciplinary infractions seen in the civilian justice system.
        Instead, the system defaults to granting administrative
    discharges. An other-than-honorable discharge is an
    administrative death sentence, locking service members out of
    benefits that support a smooth transition. I speak from
    experience on this: I recommended or approved without knowing
    the full impact those kinds of discharges, and I regret that to
    this very day.
        The Commission made several recommendations for changes at
    the VA. First, Congress must direct a return to the plain text
    of the 1944 GI Bill, providing VA eligibility to all former
    service members not discharged under dishonorable conditions.
    Second, repeal of the 1999 rule change, and return to providing
    VA healthcare to incarcerated veterans. VA medical services are
    more appropriate and effective than standard correctional care.
    And third, eliminate administrative barriers to housing
    eligibility and prevent benefit arrearages.
        When veterans do enter the criminal justice system, they
    confront a patchwork of interventions. These programs vary
    substantially across jurisdictions, and many fall through the
    cracks. VTCs have been pioneering life-saving interventions for
    thousands of veterans. Yet, despite their expansion, we found
    that only about 15 percent of the veterans were able to take
    advantage of these courts. We developed a complementary policy
    framework for those without access to a VTC. It's been adopted
    by the American Legislative Exchange Council, and is under
    consideration in several states.
        Finally, regarding the National Center on Veterans Justice
    proposed by the Commission, Congress authorized $4 million for
    the Center in January, and we're grateful for that. The Center
    should act as a hub for improving the success of justice-
    involved veterans by identifying and replicating best practices
    across the country and establishing proper program evaluation,
    so we can invest in what works. If implemented properly, it
    will revolutionize how the system treats the unique cases of
    our veterans.
        Most veterans return stronger from their service, but too
    many still need our help. It's nothing short of tragic that
    those who once wore the cloth of our Nation, now wear the cloth
    of incarceration. We sent them, we used them, now we must do
    better and stand by them, ensuring that we have the support to
    return them to their families, their communities, and their
    country. Thank you.

        [The prepared statement of General MacEwen appears on pages
    49-130 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Thank you, sir. Professor Goldberg.

    STATEMENT OF ROSE CARMEN GOLDBERG, ASSOCIATE TEACHING PROFESSOR
     AND DIRECTOR OF THE VETERANS CLINIC, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON
                             SCHOOL OF LAW

        Professor Goldberg. Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members
    of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify
    today on the pressing topic of how we can better serve justice-
    involved veterans. The veterans clinic I teach at, the
    University of Washington School of Law, provides free legal
    services to low-income veterans. Many of our clients are
    justice-involved veterans. In this role, and my decade in
    veterans law, I have seen firsthand the significant harms and
    barriers that justice-involved veterans face, and how this too
    often results in incarceration.
        While these barriers are many, I will use my time to focus
    on three main points. First, while Veterans Treatment Courts
    are a highly effective intervention that improves outcomes for
    justice-involved veterans, not all veterans are allowed to
    participate. In some jurisdictions, veterans with less-than-
    honorable discharges are locked out. This runs counter to the
    spirit of Veterans Treatment Court, which recognize that post-
    service criminal conduct often stems from mental health
    conditions during service stemming from service traumas. The
    same is often true for military misconduct that results in a
    less-than-honorable discharge.
        In addition, veterans with less-than-honorable discharges
    stand to gain the most, in many instances, from the integrated
    and structured treatment that Veterans Treatment Court provide.
    They have higher rates of incarceration, higher rates of
    homelessness, and are at higher risk of suicide than other
    veterans.
        While many Veterans Treatment Courts connect veterans with
    VA services, there are a variety of options available for
    veterans with less-than-honorable discharges who the VA has not
    recognized as VA-eligible. VA provides care to other-than-
    honorably discharged veterans for military sexual trauma-
    related conditions, service-connected conditions, and to
    veterans who served at least 180 days and served in combat
    regardless of discharge status, with some very limited
    exceptions. Mental healthcare may also be available through
    local, state, and community sources.
        Second, justice-involved veterans are deprived of earned
    benefits. VA is supposed to reduce incarcerated veterans'
    benefits under certain conditions. For instance, for veterans
    convicted of a felony who are incarcerated for more than 60
    days, starting on day 61, if they are rated at 20 percent or
    more, their benefits are reduced all the way down to 10
    percent.
        However, VA does not consistently make these reductions.
    This results in what is known as an overpayment. Upon release,
    a veteran may receive the surprising news that they are
    indebted for these overpayments, and that VA is garnishing
    their benefits. Overpayments thus threaten veterans' successful
    reentry into society. In addition to preventing overpayments,
    VA should liberally waive overpayment debts linked to
    incarceration under its existing authority to waive debt as a
    matter of equity.
        Third, incarcerated veterans are urgently in need of VA
    mental healthcare. Veterans with service-connected mental
    health conditions are more likely to be incarcerated, and
    confinement aggravates their conditions. VA's current position,
    however, is that it cannot provide this care. This exclusion
    from basic care is inequitable and harmful.
        I was therefore pleased to see the Get Justice-Involved
    Veterans BACK HOME Act introduced recently and strongly support
    it.
        Senator King. By Senator King.
        Professor Goldberg. By Senator King, yes. The most
    important part.
        [Laughter.]
        Professor Goldberg. This bill would create a pilot program
    under which VA provides telemental health treatment to
    incarcerated veterans. This would fill an important gap as
    mental healthcare in correctional facilities is inadequate. And
    only VA provides specialized treatment for conditions unique to
    military service, such as post-traumatic stress disorder and
    traumatic brain injury linked to military sexual trauma or
    combat. I encourage the expansion of this important program to
    include veterans with less-than-honorable discharges. They
    stand to benefit greatly given their higher rates of
    incarceration and mental health conditions, and as noted, VA
    has options for providing this care.
        I also applaud Senator King's bill for requiring automatic
    resumption of VA benefits after incarceration ends. Timely
    resumption of benefits can mean the difference between living
    on the streets and a high risk of recidivism, versus safe
    housing as a launchpad for a healthy life. Yet, it can take
    many months and much advocacy for veterans to get their full
    benefits back.
        Finally, I enthusiastically support the launch of the
    National Center for Veterans Justice by DOJ as a hub for
    collecting and disseminating best practices. I hope this
    mission will encompass the different areas of policies that
    impact justice-involved veterans. I thank the Committee for
    your commitment to addressing the root causes of justice
    involvement by veterans. By focusing on building programs that
    heal veterans' service traumas instead of punishing them, we
    can truly achieve justice for veterans.

        [The prepared statement of Professor Goldberg appears on
    pages 131-138 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Professor, thank you as well.
        I'm going to turn to Senator Blumenthal, the Ranking Member
    of the Committee, for his opening statement and the beginning
    of his questions.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
             RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT

        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize
    that I was late being here, and I have to leave to go to the
    floor to speak there. But I want to thank all of our witnesses
    for being here and your leadership on this critically important
    issue. Special thanks to Professor Goldberg, who served on my
    staff for a while. Thank you for your continued service.
        You know, I became involved in this issue very hands-on
    through a veteran in New Haven. His name is Conley Monk.
    Conley, a Marine Corps veteran who served in Vietnam, got into
    trouble with his sergeant because he suffered from PTSD. Nobody
    knew what PTSD was at that time. Nobody had any idea that
    shell-shock, as it was called, or whatever the terminology of
    the time, might cause people to get into trouble. Conley got
    into a lot of trouble. He received a less-than-honorable
    discharge, and so he was ineligible for treatment.
        When he had a drug problem, he was unemployed. He was on
    the streets. And he turned his life around, and then brought a
    lawsuit against the Department of Defense through the Yale Law
    Clinic. I partnered with the Yale Law Clinic, trying to help
    him with that action, and went through several secretaries of
    defense who were sympathetic but felt they couldn't do anything
    about a ``bad paper'' discharge--even though it was factually
    and morally unjust--until Chuck Hagel. And Secretary Hagel did
    the right thing: he established that people could more easily
    and more accessibly come to the boards of review. And Conley
    upgraded his discharge, and he is now an advocate for all
    veterans. I saw him just a week or so ago.
        But there are probably thousands of Conley Monks out there
    who messed up. You know, they got into trouble. Maybe it was
    caused by trauma from their service, underlying risk factors
    that were never treated, obstacles to successful transition, or
    lack of structured environment. Everybody thinks veterans are
    these paragons of virtue, and many are. But there are also a
    lot of guys who just, you know, they come out of the service,
    and they had problems before they went in, and those problems
    may not have manifested then.
        So, my question to this panel is: how do we create more
    awareness about these opportunities? Because I find even now,
    years later, most veterans are unaware of the possibilities,
    the opportunities, to upgrade their discharges from less-than-
    honorable. Obviously, we're not talking about dishonorable
    discharge. We're talking about bad paper, less-than-honorable
    discharges. And one of my hopes is that we can create more
    awareness. So, I'll just maybe turn that question over to the
    panel. I don't know who might want to start the answer.
    Professor Goldberg?
        Chairman Moran. Answer your former boss, please.
        [Laughter.]
        Professor Goldberg. Yes. I must, yes. Thank you for the----
        Senator Blumenthal. She was my boss.
        [Laughter.]
        Professor Goldberg. No, no. Definitely not. Thank you for
    the great question, Senator. My clinic works on a lot of
    discharge upgrades. So, first, I want to confirm that there is
    a great need for increased awareness. There are, unfortunately,
    a lot of rumors going around that are quite prevalent. One is
    the automatic 6-month discharge upgrade. I've heard this from
    veterans discharged decades ago. I've heard this from recently
    discharged veterans. They are put through the administrative
    separation process, they're told, ``Oh, don't worry, just sign
    on the line. No need to go to a hearing or anything. It'll be
    automatically upgraded. You'll get your benefits back.'' In
    fact, it was so prevalent--I'm not sure if it's still there--
    but for a while on the Navy Discharge Review Board website, it
    had a big notice ``Beware. There is no automatic 6-month
    discharge upgrade.'' I have found that a lot of veterans are
    not aware that, as you mentioned, there are liberalized rules.
    There are memos known as the Hagel memo and the Kurta memo that
    require the discharge upgrade boards to provide liberal
    consideration to veterans who were discharged consequent to--
    say, an undiagnosed mental health condition, or who experienced
    military sexual trauma, and the effects of that resulted in
    what was misinterpreted as misconduct. So, I think there is a
    great need to spread awareness about both the availability of
    discharge upgrades and the fact that there have been
    improvements under the law, as you said, thanks to the Yale Law
    School Veterans Legal Clinic, in large part, such that veterans
    who may not have had hope now have some hope.
        But I will say, I do think improvements need to be made in
    the process, and veterans are right to be somewhat hesitant.
    Wait times, I believe that the Army's right now is about four
    years, and there are some very serious due process issues. So,
    I think we need to raise awareness, particularly for veterans
    who were discharged consequent to mental health conditions,
    that this may be available to you, but also make it more
    timely, and enhance the due process protections.
        And just one additional point. I think a lot of awareness
    needs to be raised regarding an alternative remedy that I find
    very few veterans are aware of, which is that the VA has its
    own character-of-discharge review process that has its own
    issues, but tends to be faster. You have a right to a hearing.
    This process is where the VA makes an entirely separate
    determination where they can find a veteran what's called
    ``honorable for VA purposes.'' They can't change the DD214,
    that's DoD property, but if they make this favorable finding,
    veterans gain access to disability benefits, healthcare,
    everything except the GI Bill. So, that can be literally life-
    changing for veterans, but there's very little information out
    there.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Thank you all. I apologize.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Let me call on Senator Tillis.

                           HON. THOM TILLIS,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA

        Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for
    being here. And congratulations, Corey. I've actually had a
    long relationship with Veterans Treatment Courts in North
    Carolina. In fact, the first one we had created there was back
    in 2013, when I was speaker of the House, and man, they work.
    And I tell you, if my colleagues haven't been to a graduation
    of a Veterans Treatment Court, you owe it to yourself. It's
    like the swearing-in ceremony for citizenship, and it's really
    heartwarming, and it's a lot of fun to speak to the graduates.
        We actually--our strategy in North Carolina has been trying
    to encourage courts first, in and around VA facilities, because
    we know that they kind of work hand in hand. And I think we've
    done a good job of that all the way from near Fort Bragg out to
    Asheville. There's virtually no major VA facility in the State
    of North Carolina that doesn't have a VTC nearby, and I think
    it works. The thing that I think we need to do to get the scale
    and consistency, is start talking about best practices and
    models.
        In the bipartisan Safer Communities Act, a bill that I was
    part of leading the negotiations, we established additional
    funding for Veterans Treatment Courts. We need to make sure
    that the take rate is as high as it can be. That was a $14
    billion investment in behavioral health, and I want to make
    sure that we spend that money, particularly in family courts
    and Veterans Treatment Courts, because the money is there.
        And I should back up and say a part of that--this is a
    great cure for the veterans who can get access to it, but we've
    still got to work on prevention. And it goes back to what I've
    been saying for the 11 years that I've been on this Committee:
    we've got to get to a transition process that's an audience of
    one. We've got to get some stickiness, so that people like
    Corey, once he gets discharged, has some connection to a
    community. And we all know the ones who are most likely to run
    into trouble are the ones who are least likely to be connected
    to the VA. That's indisputable.
        So, you know, the question becomes: how can we--a lot of
    these things are initiated at the state and local level,
    although, as the example that I've used, we actually did
    congressional-directed spending for Rowan County just recently
    for another VTC in North Carolina. Is there some sort of a
    consensus around states that are doing it right? I'm not
    necessarily saying that North Carolina does it right. We're
    just one model that's creating good results. But how do we
    start coalescing around maybe a national standard based on best
    practices, since these courts have been out here for a while,
    and see to what extent we can do to encourage the state and
    local governments to build out more capabilities and provide
    more access?
        And then my second question really relates to every hearing
    I've ever gone to on transition. We all say the same thing. I
    don't feel like we've made measurable progress. So, either
    validate my theory that we've still got a lot of work to do, to
    really get to where we have the stickiness with the at-risk
    service members, or tell me I'm all wrong, we're making real
    progress, we just got to build on it. Mr. Tate, we'll start
    with you. General Tate.
        General Tate. Thank you. Excellent questions, both of them.
    I will tell you that the way we ensure fidelity to the model,
    the way we ensure best practices and evidence-based procedures,
    is through training and technical assistance. I can't
    understate the value that our training and technical assistance
    program creates when we talk to the teams about here's what
    works.
        Senator Tillis. And I think there's a clear correlation
    between that training and the efficacy of the court. People are
    well-intentioned, but they're not all executing as well,
    they're not getting the graduation rates we'd like to see. But
    please continue.
        General Tate. Yes, sir. And sometimes, when they think they
    know the right way to do it, they actually may do more harm
    than good. And so, I think through training and technical
    assistance, we can certainly avoid that happening. The states
    that seem to be doing it better than others are those that
    invest the time in training and technical assistance. So, it's
    sort of a related answer, but I think that's how we ensure that
    we move forward in the right direction and try not to do more
    harm than good.
        Senator Tillis. My time is going to go over, and I
    appreciate the chair recognizing me. But what I'd really like,
    if you all could think about it, and even Senator Blumenthal
    and I have worked on the issue over the years on bad paper, we
    know one of the things here is that veterans may not think that
    they have an option. We know that the VA has allowed some
    people in on an exception basis with a less-than-honorable
    discharge. We need more of that. We need certainty. But we also
    need to know where these veterans are before a problem. So, if
    you all could maybe submit for the Committee, but at least for
    my office, some suggestions around best practice models, things
    that are working, we'd be very happy, in my remaining time in
    the Senate, to see if we can move the ball a little bit further
    along. Mr. Chair, you have my support to that end. Thank you
    all.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you, Senator Tillis. Senator Hirono.

                         HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII

        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I know that
    there are a lot more veterans of--Justice Nuss said something
    like over 100,000 veterans are incarcerated, but maybe somebody
    has updated numbers, and only a small percentage of the
    incarcerated veterans go through this program. Can somebody
    explain to me why that is the case? And are there criteria for
    participating in the program? First of all, it sounds as though
    the program really works, and if so, more veterans should have
    the opportunity to participate. Would somebody like to respond?
        Mr. Nuss. Yes, Senator.
        Senator Hirono. Justice Nuss.
        Mr. Nuss. Yes. Thank you----
        Senator Hirono. Can you speak into the mic, please?
        Mr. Nuss. Yes. Is that better? Now it's on. Someone's
    trying to tell me something [laughter.] Does it work now?
        Senator Hirono. No.
        Mr. Nuss. Just have to be persistent. Several answers, I
    believe, Senator, to your question. First of all, there are
    just an awful lot of jails in this country where they have no
    idea if the people in their incarceration are veterans. And the
    simple matter of asking people when they are being booked,
    ``Have you served in the military?'' You don't say, ``Are you a
    veteran?'' Because the younger folks think it's old guys like
    General Tate and me. And then if you say ``Have you served in
    the military?'' Sometimes they will still lie, because they are
    ashamed, because they basically took an oath to support you and
    me when they entered the military. And some of them are also
    afraid that the mere fact they've been arrested means that they
    will lose their VA benefits. So, asking the question helps, but
    then the check on that is to use two VA electronic programs:
    one is called VRSS, and the other is called SQUARES. You can go
    online using that program and find out if the person who is an
    inmate in your jail actually served in the military.
        The second thing is--and let me say that this then helps
    convince the local folks, the courts included, as to whether
    you have a need in your area for a VTC. As I said in my
    testimony, Johnson County thought we don't need one, and then
    they found out they had 60 veterans incarcerated in their jail.
    The same thing happens across the state--I'm sorry, across the
    country.
        And so, once you have established a need, then you should
    go forward and try to put something together. And what I have
    talked with my colleagues is, you don't have to wait until you
    have the deluxe version before you open a VTC. You can start
    very small and then over time increase what you want to do for
    these folks. You can admit people to your program who have bad
    paper discharges. If you don't care about the VA providing
    benefits, and you have a local community health center or
    something like that, then you can proceed. For example, that's
    something that Johnson County does.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you. I note that from the summary of
    the Commission's report--I think this is the report--that they
    don't know how many veterans are incarcerated. You don't have
    this kind of information. So, there must be some way to do
    better in terms of identifying the people who would benefit
    from this program. There are over 700 VTCs all across the
    country. There are four in Hawaii, and when they are
    participating in them--and I realize it's not one-size-fits-
    all--it really decreases the recidivism rate and all of that.
    So, the more veterans who are able to participate, the better,
    right?
        General MacEwen. Senator, we absolutely agree that more
    VTCs are better, but we also know that they simply don't reach
    enough of the population----
        Senator Hirono. Yes.
        General MacEwen [continuing]. As you've described. Many
    VTCs exclude people with violent behavior, which is oftentimes
    the type of behavior that some of our veterans get involved in.
    Thirty-five percent exclude those with what we call bad paper.
    And so, we came up with a complementary thing to help bridge
    that gap in our recommendation, a model policy that gives a
    judge in a non-VTC jurisdiction the ability to act like a VTC
    without the bells and whistles, so to speak, of a full VTC,
    because we know that the VTC system works. So, like Chief Nuss
    said, if you don't have the VA capabilities, use community-
    based stuff, and give a statutory background or backbone to a
    judge in a jurisdiction.
        Senator Hirono. So, we need to provide flexibility. So, for
    all of the panelists, I know that you all support VTCs, and so
    I will be reviewing the Commission's recommendations. And I
    take it that all of you would support the recommendations that
    the Commission came up with. Is that correct? Okay. Thank you,
    Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Hassan.

                       HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE

        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really
    appreciate this hearing, and I am grateful to all of the
    witnesses not only for being here today, but for your advocacy
    and for your service. Thank you very much.
        I want to follow up really on the question that Senator
    Hirono had just posed to Chief Nuss. But I want to ask General
    Tate if he has anything to add, which is really we know the
    value of these courts, we know how they decrease recidivism,
    but we also know that not every jurisdiction, as we were just
    talking about, has one of these courts, and it can be hard to
    ensure that eligible veterans are identified and connected to
    treatment.
        So, Chief Nuss, you just talked about some of the things we
    can do. General, I just wanted to kind of add on to that. Are
    there other things we can do to identify veterans who are
    eligible for these courts and for the connected services?
        General Tate. Thank you. Excellent question, because that
    is an age-old problem.
        Senator Hassan. Yes.
        General Tate. I think it starts with--again, I go back to
    training and technical assistance. Part of our training at All
    Rise includes law enforcement who are likely to be the parties
    at first contact with the offender, and training them to
    understand to ask the right questions, and training them to
    appreciate what this veteran may be going through. So,
    education is part of it. Advocacy is part of it. We've talked
    about the National Center for Veterans Justice. Part of that
    will be a state and local engagement, it will be convening at
    the national level. It'll be all of these stakeholders who
    really, really want to make a difference coming together and
    learning: Okay, this is how we identify; this is how we assess;
    and this is how we treat. And I think that leads to success.
        To Senator Tillis's question, he wanted to know when do we
    get to the bottom line? When are we there? I think the answer
    is, we are there when there is a veterans treatment court
    within reach of every eligible veteran. And to be sure, they
    are not for every veteran who's in trouble. That's where the
    assessment part comes in. The high-risk, high-need, that's who
    will benefit the most. If it's a veteran who isn't high-risk or
    high-need, then let's--don't put them through such a high-
    accountability, high-touch sort of environment. Let's get them
    treated; they don't have to face the same sort of
    accountability that someone embedded in that treatment program
    faces. So, it's not necessarily for every veteran who gets in
    trouble. We have to be careful on how we assess. Thank you.
        Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that very much, and I
    think that's something we can all work on together. I was
    struck--I think it was when Chief Nuss was talking about not
    asking somebody if they are a veteran. We found when we were
    trying to increase access to veteran-informed care in New
    Hampshire, that we had to really train medical providers to
    ask, ``Have you ever served?'' Or, ``Were you ever in the
    military?'' Not, ``Are you a veteran?'' And that was for me, a
    civilian, a revelation.
        So, Chief Nuss, I wanted to ask you another question. You
    are doing incredible work, and I love the story about how the
    effort in Kansas has grown. You mentioned that grants from the
    Bureau of Justice Assistance have helped overcome funding
    obstacles. What more can Congress do to help facilitate the
    creation and operation of Veterans Treatment Courts? And
    Brigadier General, you were also talking about that. What can
    we do to support our state and local partners?
        Mr. Nuss. Well, thank you, Senator. The first answer that
    comes to my mind is increase the appropriations that would go
    to BJA.
        Senator Hassan. Okay.
        Mr. Nuss. And as the Chair pointed out, those recent
    figures came out, I think maybe three or four weeks ago, I
    believe $26 million has been appropriated. And for some reason,
    there are some entities around the country who do not apply for
    those grants. I don't know why, but they somehow need to be
    educated that the money would be available.
        I have also spoken with some federal court judges, and they
    are not covered by those appropriations. One of them told me
    that they don't have the money for an additional probation
    officer who can handle veterans and a Veterans Treatment Court
    program, and so they don't have any program for them other than
    trying to put that veteran defendant in contact with the VA----
        Senator Hassan. Okay.
        Mr. Nuss [continuing]. So, a VJO can come provide some
    services. But they don't have a program where they say if you
    are a veteran, you come in, we can divert you from this crime
    if you go through our 18-month program.
        Senator Hassan. Okay.
        Mr. Nuss. And several courts have said the federal courts
    don't get the benefit of those appropriations through BJA. And
    for some reason, even though the tribal nations are--and we
    have, I think, 575 federally recognized tribal nations in the
    country--very few of them apply for these funds. So, I don't
    know if Congress can do anything to try to stir their interest
    or their notice of this availability.
        Senator Hassan. All right. Well, I appreciate that. I'm
    going to submit one more question to the record for all of you.
    And just to kind of highlight something that I had hoped to get
    to is, we have been talking about Veterans Treatment Court for
    veterans who get involved with the criminal justice system. I
    think it's important to note that we often overlook how civil
    legal issues can impact veterans. So, I'm going to ask all of
    you for your thoughts about the benefits that veterans can gain
    from receiving help with civil legal issues, and how that can
    help reduce recidivism rates, and perhaps prevent involvement
    with the criminal justice system, too.
        Senator Hassan. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Senator King [Off mic.]--fine with me.
        Senator Hassan. That'd be great. Thank you. Yes--I mean,
    it's everything from housing to----
        Chairman Moran. I'm interested in--like, is this legal aid?
    I mean, where does this go?
        Senator Hassan. Yes. It's housing, family law, I mean--so,
    I'd love to explore that.
        General Tate. Senator, my experience is you won't find a
    veteran in veterans treatment court with just one problem.
        Senator Hassan. Right.
        General Tate. You will find layers of problems, all of
    which led to that unfortunate intersection with law
    enforcement. We're talking housing, employment, education,
    counseling, substance use disorder treatment. Every possible--
    landlord-tenant issues, because; if I get kicked out on the
    street; I no longer have a place to live; my employer fired me
    because I don't have any place to live; I can't get to work;
    can't get my car; et cetera, so I've got to do something to
    feed my family, and that's how this happened.
        So, that's why it's so critical to have the involvement of
    these community partners. As I said at the outset, I believe
    government, the judiciary, and community partners have never
    looked better than they look with Veterans Treatment Courts.
    So, we've got to get all those partners together, get them in
    the courtroom, along with the veterans justice outreach officer
    to start coordinating, to swarm, if you will, to remove those
    obstacles. So, you're exactly right, incredibly important to
    address those issues. And that's where the pro bono clinics,
    the law school clinics, all come in handy. Thank you.
        Senator Hassan. Thank you.
        General MacEwen. And, Senator, the one thing the Commission
    found was we start looking at this way too late.
        Senator Hassan. Yes.
        General MacEwen. We start looking at it when they become
    justice-involved, and we have to start looking at it while
    they're still in the military. Because when you think about it,
    we spend $9 billion a year taking individual people, civilians,
    and transforming them into warriors----
        Senator Hassan. Right.
        General MacEwen [continuing]. Into 800 different
    specialties, from firefighters to fighter pilots, over a period
    of weeks. And then we put them in front of things, and do
    things to them, and expose them to things. And then at the end,
    we spend a couple of days--maybe 40 percent get through it--and
    we spend $140 million on transition and don't spend any amount
    of effort to transition them from warrior back to civilian, and
    then we don't use any evidence-based process to look at who's
    at risk. So, then we're surprised that some have a problem. So,
    we ought to spend a little bit of time looking at those--and
    that's what the Commission found--we ought to spend some time
    looking at those things that could cause someone to turn into--
    have a problem with justice involvement.
        Senator Hassan. Well, again, first of all, Mr. Chair,
    thanks for the indulgence, and Senator King as well. And thank
    you all for your expertise, and I look forward to continuing to
    work with all of you.
        Chairman Moran. Senator King.

                        HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE

        Senator King. General, to follow up, I also serve on the
    Armed Services Committee. And for the last 10 or 12 years, my
    repeated urging is I believe that the Defense Department should
    spend as much time, money, and effort on transition out as they
    do on recruiting in. We're making some progress, but nothing
    like what it ought to be. Let me ask you about the bill that
    was mentioned, the ``Get Justice-Involved Veterans BACK HOME''
    pilot program for VA to provide mental health services for
    incarcerated veterans. To me, that's a give me. I mean, that's
    obvious. But we have to start with a pilot program. I
    understand the Commission has recommended returning to the 1944
    GI Bill, the plain language, which would allow most veterans to
    access VA services. Why did the Commission make that
    recommendation? Give me a little background on that.
        General MacEwen. Thank you, Senator. The Commission made
    that recommendation because there was a huge discussion. We had
    researchers take a look at this as the Commission did its work.
    In 1944, the Congress spent weeks looking at who should be
    eligible for VA benefits when they were establishing the
    original GI Bill, and they said only the worst of the worst
    should not get benefits: dishonorable discharge. That was----
        Senator King. That was the cutoff.
        General MacEwen. That was the cutoff. And so, that was the
    rule. And then over time, by rule, not by the intent of
    Congress, by rule, it's been chipped away. And so, all of a
    sudden----
        Senator King. Narrowing them.
        General MacEwen [continuing]. Narrowing the class of
    citizen who had served that no longer was eligible for
    benefits. So, what happened over time is those most in need of
    benefits are denied benefits. And so, we said, well----
        Senator King. Like someone that's incarcerated.
        General MacEwen [continuing]. That doesn't make sense.
    Well, someone incarcerated with a felony conviction loses it.
    But someone who--an example I would use for you, sir, someone
    who had military sexual trauma and then becomes a ``bad
    soldier'' because they're dealing with that military sexual
    trauma, and so they're not showing up to formation. And so, the
    commander says this is not a good soldier, and so they
    administratively discharge him and give him bad paper. They
    give him bad paper because he's not showing up at work, not
    because of the underlying condition, because they don't have an
    evidence-based process to take a look at them. They discharge
    him, and he or she doesn't get healthcare at the VA.
        Senator King. Well, just for the record, do all of you
    agree that VA mental health benefits should be available to
    incarcerated veterans?
        Professor Goldberg. Yes, sir.
        General MacEwen. Yes.
        Senator King. That's a yes from everybody. Thank you. And
    the other thing that's in this bill, and it goes to one of the
    points we were talking about before, is requiring the VA to do
    the research to find out how many incarcerated veterans there
    are. I mean, to me, that makes a lot of sense. Does that--
    Chief, is that a sensible proposal?
        Mr. Nuss. I believe it is. And as kind of a piggyback to
    that, Senator, I'm in favor. I'm not sure who had proposed this
    during the past year, but as you leave the military, you are
    automatically enrolled with the VA. You don't have to have
    that----
        Senator King. You're saying that should be the case.
        Mr. Nuss. Should be the case.
        Senator King. It is not the case.
        Mr. Nuss. It is not the case. Correct.
        Senator King. We're working on legislation to allow
    veterans to enroll in VA healthcare before they leave active
    duty. I think that's a sensible----
        General MacEwen. Senator, we--the Commission recommended
    automatic enrollment for a 2-year period.
        Senator King. Right.
        General MacEwen. Currently, they can voluntarily enroll on
    what's called an EZ form, which everyone that I've ever spoken
    to the form is called ``easy'' but it's not.
        Senator King. Well, the other thing, Professor, that I'm
    interested in is--I think you touched upon this--having the
    process of restoring benefits after release be automatic and
    timely. As I understand your testimony, that can often take
    months and a lot of paperwork and difficulty. Is that the case?
        Professor Goldberg. Yes. What I've seen happen is the onus
    is on the veteran, both on the front end, to notify the VA that
    they are incarcerated as a change in life circumstances. You
    can imagine many veterans may not be aware that they are
    supposed to do this, and as they are incarcerated, it may not
    be easy to actually do that.
        And then on the tail end, it is supposed to be an easy
    process for the veteran to notify the VA that they have been
    released. But what often happens is there is a very long tail
    to that. The veteran may call in, and then there's this very
    slow back-and-forth where the VA is contacting correctional
    facilities. And again, the onus falls back on the veteran to go
    back to the prison to get some kind of documentation. It can
    just kind of spiral into months.
        But, as has been mentioned, there are data-sharing
    capabilities that are underutilized. This is a government-to-
    government process. They are entitled to have that restoration
    on day one, and they do get--are supposed to get--back pay if
    it does take many months or a year, as it sometimes happens.
    But there's no reason that should be the case.
        Senator King. And I would mention that we made some
    progress, because it was in the Defense Bill that passed last
    year, it's now law, if the veteran has an opportunity to opt
    out of whether their home state veteran service organization is
    notified that they're coming home. In other words, instead of
    having to opt in--which people often don't do because they've
    got so many forms--now it's an opt out. And we think, we
    believe and hope, that that will significantly increase. My
    vision is to have somebody to meet them at the airport, have
    somebody from one of the VSOs or from the state veterans
    office, and start the process of here's what's available, here
    are the services, and is there a way we can help you find a
    job? Or all of those kinds of things. So, I did want to mention
    that. It was sort of an obscure provision in a 2,000-page bill,
    but I think that we're hoping that now that that's the law,
    we'll see some progress on that. Thank you very much, Mr.
    Chairman. Thank you for having this hearing.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you, Senator King. I just now have a
    few questions. Let me first start with this conversation that
    has involved several members, including Senator King's just
    recently. The Transition Assistance Program, TAP, is supposed
    to help veterans move from active duty to life after active
    duty. I don't think--I'll speak for myself, the program has not
    been sufficiently utilized, supported, or emphasized, and I
    think we're missing a lot of opportunity. And I never thought
    about this in regard to the veteran treatment court until
    today.
        But we've been pushing, particularly the military, to have
    a higher priority in assisting their active-duty men and women
    during transition. And a lot of that conversation originates
    with the concern about at what point in time a service member,
    soon to be a veteran, most vulnerable to commit suicide or
    mental health issues? And I think the conclusion is that's the
    most fragile time. And so, for a different reason, we've been
    pushing greater efforts by the VA, but perhaps more
    importantly, greater efforts by the military, the Department of
    Defense, to implement a solid TAP program.
        But the conversation we have been having suggests to me
    that there may be another opportunity or another purpose for
    TAP, related to what you all are trying to advocate for, is the
    connection between those who serve and the world after their
    service. Anyone want to assist me in fleshing out that thought?
        General MacEwen. Sir, if I could--I think two things on the
    TAP program and why it maybe doesn't work. And I ran the TAP
    program for the Army--excuse me for criticizing, and so I'm
    criticizing myself in some ways. When the Commission did its
    report, we understood that the military classified 41 percent
    who transitioned in a year's period as not fully prepared
    through the TAP program. Twenty-two percent of those never even
    attended TAP, even though they were congressionally mandated
    to. TAP has never been fully, robustly evaluated. Many with
    other-than-honorable discharges don't attend TAP.
        And so, we know that we don't use a validated risk-needs
    assessment tool. And part of the reason TAP doesn't exist is
    because of what we call the ``commanders dilemma.'' I talked
    about it briefly. But what we do is we put the commanders in an
    impossible position. And it is a position where we say,
    ``Commander, worry about readiness, and, oh, by the way, send
    them to TAP.'' I was talking to a staffer today whose husband
    works at Davidson Army Airfield. He's an aircraft crew chief
    now, and he's thinking of getting out. Is his commander going
    to say take care of your aircraft for missions, or is he going
    to send him to TAP? When push comes to shove, he's going to
    send him to take care of that aircraft, and he may not send him
    to TAP.
        Now, what we said is, in the case where he really is at
    risk, if you do a valid risk-needs assessment tool, you pull
    him out of the operational force like he was in basic training,
    where he's not available for an operation. You've got to pull
    him out, put him in a joint transition center, get him the help
    he needs, and then send him on his way.
        Chairman Moran. Is the key, General, what you said is if
    they do a valid assessment?
        General MacEwen. It absolutely is, but you have to do it.
    This is revolutionary. It has to be revolutionary, because,
    otherwise, you can throw more money at it. You can say
    SkillBridge, and SkillBridge is a wonderful program, if you're
    available. That's always the caveat. Send them to SkillBridge,
    if operational readiness allows.
        Senator King. Under the law, aren't they required--[off
    mic.]
        General MacEwen. Sure, it does, but they don't comply.
    That's what we found time and time again.
        Chairman Moran. And I think I've heard this before about
    the dilemma. You had a phrase for it. I've heard this dilemma
    probably from generals I know in the neighborhood is that the
    focus is defending the country.
        General MacEwen. Yes. And so, what we've done is tried to
    come up with a logical solution that solves the problem, so you
    don't put this commander in a paradox that you're asking him to
    fail.
        Chairman Moran. So, is--let me go back. Even though TAP has
    its challenges today for this evident reason, you've got to
    prioritize what a soldier is doing in the last time of service.
    If TAP is occurring, if the transition program is taking place,
    is there a role in that process that affects veteran treatment
    court availability and knowledge?
        General MacEwen. I don't believe so. I'd leave that to your
    classmates to answer.
        Chairman Moran. They were smarter than I was then, too.
        [Laughter.]
        General Tate. I don't think so, because it'll be an issue
    of timing. I want us to also----
        Chairman Moran. At that point, the problems are not
    evident.
        General Tate. They probably are, they just aren't
    discovered yet. Because even the service member and her family
    don't know the baggage that they are carrying. It will take
    time for that to manifest. And I think we also have to be
    sensitive to the notion that these service members just want to
    go home. Number one, you're going to put a burden on the
    commander: ``Oh, here's something else to put on your list.
    This is top priority.'' I'll put it on there with all the other
    top priorities. But then second, the mindset of the service
    member: ``I just want to go home. I don't know what all this
    stuff is about.'' So, that's why the solution has to be really
    carefully crafted. But I don't think part of the separation
    will be: ``And hey, don't forget, there are Veterans Treatment
    Courts out there.''
        It'd just be really hard to do, but that sort of advocacy
    can come elsewhere. It can come from the creation of this
    Center, thanks to Congress. Part of that creation will be state
    and local convenings, national convenings, and advocacy, where
    it'll become more widespread that the existence of those courts
    would be a tool to assist that service member. Thank you, sir.
        Chairman Moran. If you all would help me, or help the
    Committee. In a moment, we're going to dismiss you and we're
    going to have two other witnesses take the table where you are.
    They are both high-level officials, one at the Department of
    Veterans Affairs, the other at the Department of Corrections.
    Is there something that you would want to make sure that we
    hear from you that would lend itself to an appropriate, useful
    question and answer from our next panel?
        General Tate. I would simply like to highlight what an
    extraordinary program the VJO program is for the VA. These are
    young men and women who are dedicated, committed social workers
    who just every day get after it. So, it's a real plus for the
    VA, and that ought to be sung to the mountaintop about how good
    they are.
        I think critical to their continued success, their
    sustained success, will be training tailored to the VJOs, so
    that we ensure that not only are they trained when they're new
    to the job because it's super demanding, especially if that VJO
    has not got military culture in their background. But it's not
    only that newcomer training, it's also the training to sustain
    their skill set. So, that's all I would ask. That really is, to
    me, a two-thumbs-up for the VA and that VJO program. Thank you,
    Senator.
        Chairman Moran. Yes, ma'am.
        Professor Goldberg. If I may echo that, and add to that. I
    also would like to enthusiastically support VJOs and the
    critical role they play. The latest I've heard--and don't quote
    me on this--I believe there may be around 400 VJOs in the
    country, so I'd want to know from VA how many there are
    currently and whether the staffing is adequate?
        My local VJO is amazing, does terrific work on the streets,
    in the jails, every step of the way with veterans in Veterans
    Treatment Court, This very much ties back to our conversation
    about Veterans Treatment Courts. And VJOs are largely part of
    the success of veterans going through that. My understanding is
    that they are understaffed and overworked, and I don't believe
    their numbers have been increased in a number of years. I know
    there have been proposals, so I'd be interested to know both
    the number and whether there are plans to increase the number
    of VJOs?
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Notes were being taken.
        Mr. Nuss. Mr. Chairman, if I could add to what they both
    have said. I've told VJOs this to their face. I said, ``What I
    like about you is that too many times a government agency says,
    `Oh, you've come to us for help. Well, here's a stack of
    documents or pamphlets or booklets for you to read. And if you
    see something in here you think might apply to you, come back
    and tell me, and then we'll talk about it.' '' The VJO takes
    the opposite approach. They say, `Here's the stack of pamphlets
    and documents, but I've looked through them also, and based
    upon my interview of you, here are two programs that I think
    you could benefit from. Let's talk about them and see which one
    would work best for you.' ''
        The other thing I would say, I think Senator Tillis said
    earlier, if you've never been to a VTC graduation ceremony,
    it's well worth your time. And as far as the VJOs go, in
    Johnson County VTC, when the VTC graduate is allowed to speak
    and say how much it's meant to them, they always go over and
    hug their VJO--at least the ones I've been to. And I just think
    that speaks volumes for how important the VJOs are, how well-
    trained they should be, and how much they care about the
    veterans. And I'd like to see more of them. Thank you.
        General MacEwen. Yes. I would say to both government folks,
    as a former government folk, to please be involved in the
    process for the National Center with the Department of Justice,
    because this has to be a whole-of-government approach, and it
    can't be stovepiped inside DOJ. It has to involve everyone if
    it's going to work to take care of our veterans.
        Chairman Moran. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Schramm, we just heard
    how important certain people have had a role in your life in
    this process. I wanted to give you the chance to maybe do a
    couple of things. If you'd like to expand on what the program
    was like that you went through. And if you'd like to take a
    moment, how were you treated differently than someone who is
    not in the Veteran Treatment Court? You may not know that, but
    what were the aspects of that court that made a difference in
    your life? And it may just be that you want to tell us about
    your mentor, and I want to give you the chance to do that.
        Mr. Schramm. I think the program keeps you accountable.
    Like, I was on and off probation before I went to Veterans
    Treatment Court, and when I showed up to Veterans Treatment
    Court, I thought I was just going to play the system and go
    through the motions. And boy, was I ever wrong.
        And to go back on what everyone was saying about VJOs, my
    VJO, Michelle Parsons, is the standard VJO. She's an amazing
    person. She gave me the best piece of advice when I was going
    through, when she told me I didn't have to do this. That wasn't
    really the words I was looking for, but it just showed me the
    path that I was going to take. And as far as Ed, Ed's a legend.
    He's a great human being. He's the reason why my tie looks so
    good today. And he was just an absolute--going through the
    program, he kept me guided. He used a term called ``jungle
    rules'' that I had to google because I didn't understand what
    it was, but it just meant, you know, the court--that's their
    rules, and you just have to abide by it.
        And that was a great deterrent, even from the smallest
    sanction. I couldn't believe how upset I got over the smallest
    sanction. But his words, ``jungle rules,'' completely took my
    train of thought elsewhere and started thinking about my
    actions instead of the overall punishment--like, what could I
    do better. Thank you.
        Chairman Moran. All the questions, the story Senator
    Blumenthal told, your witness to the Committee, it reminds us--
    at least it reminds me, I speak for myself--that we changed the
    world one person, one soul at a time. And we need to have that
    kind of approach to how we deal with people. It's not about a
    process; it's about a relationship. And the Veterans Treatment
    Court demonstrates to me--and your testimony shows--that when
    people care about other people, you can change a life. And it's
    a great story for us to hear.
        We're going to change panels. Incidentally, I'm trying to
    demonstrate my leadership. I think it's hot in here, and they
    turned off the air conditioning because there was some loud
    noise in the background. I said the loud noise was continuing--
    it's worth having the noise than to have the air conditioning.
    So, it's supposedly coming back on.
        Mr. Nuss. Mr. Chairman, can I say one thing in response to
    Senator King's question about what can be done to make veterans
    aware? This story comes from a VTC graduate in Minnesota, and
    he later deployed after he had graduated and been
    rehabilitated. And he told the troops in his company about his
    experience in the VTC. And he said, ``There is no shame in
    asking for help, but there is shame in being in handcuffs.''
    And he was telling them, ``if you are struggling, go seek help.
    Don't wait until it eats you up and you commit some crime.''
    Thank you.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Banks, we were ready to
    move to the second panel. That all right?
        Senator Banks. It's all right.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you all for your testimony. Thank you
    for being here, and thanks for the work that you do.

        [Recess.]

        Chairman Moran. The Committee will reconvene for our second
    panel. The Senate has votes at 5:30, so. Dr. O'Toole is looking
    at his watch to see that he only has to be here--put up with
    this process for a short period of time. Let me welcome Ms.
    Dana DiGiacomo, assistant director of reentry services for the
    Federal Bureau of Prisons, United States Department of Justice,
    and Dr. Thomas O'Toole, welcome back. He's the Acting Assistant
    Under Secretary for Health and Clinical Services at the
    Department of Justice--I'm sorry, at the Department of Veterans
    Affairs. And I thank you both for your appearance here today.
    And we'll start with you, and let's hear what the Bureau of
    Prisons has to say, Ms. DiGiacomo.

                                PANEL II

                                  ----------

       STATEMENT OF DANA DIGIACOMO, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, REENTRY
     SERVICES DIVISION, FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS, U.S. DEPARTMENT
                               OF JUSTICE

        Ms. DiGiacomo. Good afternoon, Chairman Moran, Ranking
    Member Blumenthal, and distinguished Members of the Committee.
    It's a pleasure to appear before this Committee to share the
    work that the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) is doing to meet
    the needs of our incarcerated veterans.
        My name is Dana DiGiacomo, and I am a career employee with
    nearly 19 years of service in the Bureau of Prisons, including
    the last eight years in the Reentry Services Division, where I
    currently serve as the assistant director. On behalf of the
    Agency, I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here
    today. It's both an honor and a privilege to speak with you. I
    would also like to take a moment to acknowledge the many
    veterans who are part of my life, my family, friends, and
    colleagues within the Bureau of Prisons. Their service and
    sacrifice is deeply respected and appreciated.
        The BOP recognizes veterans represent a unique population
    within our federal prison system. Currently, the Bureau of
    Prisons houses approximately 7,600 incarcerated veterans, many
    of whom face service-related challenges, including physical and
    mental health conditions, as well as difficulties adjusting to
    life after military service.
        Veterans in the BOP reflect a diverse population across all
    security levels, with the majority classified as low or medium
    security. Many maintain strong family connections, and a
    significant portion have achieved a high school diploma or
    equivalent. These characteristics highlight both the needs and
    the potential of this population, reinforcing the importance of
    targeted programming and support.
        The BOP's Program Statement on the ``Management of Inmate
    Veterans'' provides a framework for identifying and supporting
    incarcerated veterans. This policy outlines staff
    responsibilities, training requirements, and service delivery
    expectations to ensure veterans are properly identified and
    connected to resources. Identification begins early in our
    intake process, where staff verify veteran status through
    documentation such as pre-sentence reports and military
    discharge records. This information is entered into the BOP
    systems and tracked through a centralized database, allowing
    the agency to monitor trends and ensure continuity of care.
        Once identified, veterans are supported through a
    structured three-tier service delivery model designed to meet
    their needs at every stage of incarceration. Tier One services
    provide a foundational support through self-help resources and
    informational sessions in collaboration with the Department of
    Veterans Affairs. Tier Two services include structured
    workshops and support groups that address resilience, wellness,
    and service-related challenges such as post-traumatic stress
    and traumatic brain injury. Psychology Services plays a key
    role in delivering individualized treatment based on these
    assessed needs.
        Tier Three services represent the most intensive level of
    programming, through our Veterans Education Transitional
    Services, what we call our VETS Unit. This is a residential
    program that operates on a community-based model, where
    participants engage in daily programming focused on education,
    skill development, and peer support. Institutions such as FCI
    Englewood and the developing unit at FCI Seagoville demonstrate
    the BOP's commitment to expanding these structured
    environments, and improving continuity of care as veterans
    transition back into the community.
        In addition to programming, the BOP emphasizes staff
    training to ensure employees understand military culture and
    the unique needs of our incarcerated veterans. This training
    supports consistent service delivery and reinforces the BOP's
    commitment to this population. Collaboration with external
    partners is also critical to the success. The BOP maintains
    strong partnerships with the Department of Veterans Affairs and
    the Department of Labor to help support reentry planning and
    access to benefits, employment services, and community
    resources.
        Additionally, veterans transitioning to residential reentry
    centers or home confinement are provided the opportunity to
    engage in activity with the Veterans Affairs representatives to
    access benefits, secure services, and establish continuity of
    care upon release. These efforts align with the goals of the
    First Step Act by encouraging participation in recidivism-
    reducing programs and productive activities.
        Veteran-specific programming supports skill development,
    strengthens support networks, and improves outcomes for
    individuals preparing to return to the community. Supporting
    justice-involved veterans is not just a policy priority, it's a
    responsibility. Every individual in our custody deserves a
    second chance and the opportunity to make meaningful change in
    their lives. Our goal is to ensure that the time in our care is
    not just time served, but time that serves a purpose, equipping
    them with the tools, the support, and the opportunities needed
    to successfully return to their communities.
        And I'm happy to respond to any questions that the
    Committee may have.

        [The prepared statement of Ms. DiGiacomo appears on pages
    139-141 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Dr. O'Toole.

        STATEMENT OF THOMAS O'TOOLE, MD, ACTING ASSISTANT UNDER
    SECRETARY FOR HEALTH FOR CLINICAL SERVICES, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF
                            VETERANS AFFAIRS

        Dr. O'Toole. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and
    Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to
    testify today. I'm honored to highlight the work the Department
    of Veterans Affairs is doing to support justice-involved
    veterans as they navigate the legal system and reenter their
    communities.
        VA's Veterans Justice Program (VJP) ensures that justice-
    involved veterans are identified early and connected to VA
    services that support accountability, recovery, and long-term
    stability. VJP specialists engage veterans in courts, jails,
    prisons, or community settings to encourage responsible
    decision-making, facilitate behavioral health, and other needed
    care, and support reintegration consistent with community
    safety. In fiscal year 2025, VJP served more than 60,000
    veterans through more than 500 specialists nationwide. For
    many, meeting a VJP specialist can be a turning point that
    opens the door to recovery. Early engagement helps veterans
    take responsibility while accessing treatment and supporting
    rehabilitation.
        For nonviolent offenders, the Veterans Treatment Court
    occupy a critical role in supporting justice-involved veterans
    by offering a structured, treatment-focused alternative to
    incarceration. These courts pair judicial oversight with VA-
    supported treatment and case management. VJP specialists work
    alongside court teams to ensure veterans receive the
    healthcare, housing, and support needed to complete their
    court-defined program successfully.
        The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) Health Care for
    Reentry Veterans (HCRV) program conducts outreach in federal
    and state prisons or jails to support veterans preparing for
    release. HCRV specialists assist with healthcare enrollment,
    identification documents, follow-up appointments, and
    reconnection to VA systems that may have lapsed during
    incarceration. This pre-release engagement is essential to
    ensuring successful community reintegration.
        VA's Legal Services for Veterans program strengthens access
    to civil legal assistance, helping veterans address outstanding
    legal issues such as housing disputes, benefits matters, or
    family law concerns that may impede stability and successful
    reintegration. These services do not remove lawful
    accountability, but rather, they assist veterans to better
    understand their rights and responsibilities under the law and
    navigate available resources so they can meet legal
    obligations, rebuild stability, and pursue self-sufficiency.
        The VBA complements VHA's clinical and reentry services by
    ensuring justice-involved veterans receive information about VA
    benefits and how to apply. Through its justice-involved veteran
    coordinators and homeless veteran outreach coordinators, VBA
    tailors outreach to local needs and refers veterans to federal,
    state, and community organizations. All VA regional offices
    conduct quarterly in-person or virtual outreach to veterans who
    are incarcerated at federal, state, or local facilities.
    Benefit information is disseminated to incarcerated veterans.
    VBA also provides information and training on VA benefits and
    services to community service providers and correctional
    officials.
        From October to March of this past year, VBA conducted 425
    justice-related outreach events, reaching more than 14,000
    participants. VBA outreach personnel also coordinate outreach
    efforts for veterans at risk for homelessness who are being
    discharged or released from a facility after imprisonment,
    coordinating with VHA to provide outreach within 60 days of
    release to assist with establishing eligibility for VA benefits
    and services.
        VA strongly supports the Department of Justice's National
    Center for Veterans Justice. It provides a national opportunity
    to standardize veteran identification, strengthen data and
    research capacity, and improve coordination across the criminal
    justice system. VA's long-standing collaboration with courts,
    jails, and prisons forms a strong foundation for this expanded
    effort, and these collaborations support VA's commitment to the
    rule of law, safe communities, and our commitment to veterans
    and their capacity to return to their communities. We
    appreciate the Committee's attention to these issues, and look
    forward to continuing our work with federal, state, and
    community organizations.
        And this concludes my testimony. I'm happy to answer any
    questions.

        [The prepared statement of Dr. O'Toole appears on pages
    142-144 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Ms. DiGiacomo, do you believe
    the VA's engagement at the Bureau of Prisons is adequate,
    sufficient? How would you describe it?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Thank you for that question. Yes, we have a
    great partnership with the Department of Veterans Affairs.
    Actually, their staff or their contracted staff come into our
    facilities quarterly to be able to meet the needs of our
    incarcerated veterans.
        Chairman Moran. And Dr. O'Toole, as evidenced by the number
    of times you appear before this Committee, you have lots of
    responsibilities. There's lots of things that you need to pay
    attention to. Tell me why I should be assured that Veterans
    Treatment Courts and the associated programs around them are
    not something that slips through the cracks.
        Dr. O'Toole. Thank you, Senator, and it's a great question.
    The short answer is because they work, and because they work
    for our veterans in bringing them back into their communities,
    allowing them to lead their fullest lives possible, and it's
    important. We have 515 veteran justice outreach specialists
    currently who do God's work. And having been a primary care
    provider in the VA for 20 years, and a shout-out to Rich Flynn
    at the Providence VA, these guys make a huge difference in
    reconnecting veterans, keeping them from becoming homeless,
    getting them back into the workforce, bringing them back and
    connected with their communities. And I think our first panel
    really just reinforced all the reasons why this is what makes
    the VA a special place.
        Chairman Moran. Tell me about staffing. There's been a lot
    of talk in this Committee, since the beginning of last year,
    about staffing at the VA. We're assured by the Department of
    Veterans Affairs that the people necessary to fulfill the
    responsibilities are sufficient, adequate, and doing their job.
    Is that true in this program?
        Dr. O'Toole. I think it is, sir. I think--you know, just to
    level set with some numbers, we currently have 515 veteran
    justice outreach specialists employed in the VA. We have about
    a 9 percent vacancy rate, which for most programs is kind of
    within the norm of expecting an influx and efflux out. Each
    medical center is required to have at least one veterans
    outreach specialist, and obviously, we have many more in most
    of our facilities. And we currently staff 747 Veteran Treatment
    Courts, as well as go to upwards of 3,000 prisons and jails
    with that staff.
        We have a budget of $75 million appropriated from Congress
    to be able to do that, and we spend all that money. The issue,
    however, I do want to emphasize is that this is a program we
    would love to see grow. Those 747 treatment courts, there is a
    capacity for many more. As the program grows, we will staff
    accordingly. This is a priority for us, and I do hope that we
    can grow this program.
        Chairman Moran. My understanding is that fiscal year 2025
    is the $75 million that you mentioned. Fiscal year 2026 is $82
    million. So, there is--and that's grown since the numbers I
    have go back to fiscal year 2022 when it was $53 million. So,
    there is interest in Congress in support, through the
    appropriations process, for this program.
        Let me ask you a couple of specific questions, and I'll
    turn to my colleague, Mr. Banks. Incarcerated veterans lose
    access to VA-delivered care while in custody. How does the VA
    provide continuity of care for veterans with serious mental
    health or substance use conditions upon release?
        Dr. O'Toole. Thank you. And it's, obviously, with Senator
    King's legislation, that's something that he's looking at as
    well, and I appreciate Congress's interest on this. I know I
    previously testified on the Hill on the House side for similar
    legislation.
        When a person is incarcerated, they become a ward of the
    state in where they are incarcerated, and so the VA does not,
    by legal authority, have the ability to provide direct clinical
    care while they are incarcerated. Our job, in the context of
    the Veterans Justice Outreach effort, is to make sure that we
    can create a seamless transition from when they are released to
    get them back into the VA as quickly and seamlessly as
    possible, and this is where the VJO specialists play a very,
    very critical role. And as I mentioned, in my own experience,
    having the VJO specialist directly participate in bringing that
    patient to clinic and making sure that they are plugged in and
    getting the care they need, is a critical case management step
    that really makes a difference. And that's just one element of
    all the work that they do to reconnect people, and that's why
    the program works.
        Chairman Moran. Finally, you mentioned your support for the
    National Center for Veterans Justice. Is there a plan in place
    to coordinate with DOJ in that effort?
        Dr. O'Toole. There is. I can't speak to all of the
    specifics of that plan, but we have dedicated leadership within
    VA that have a long-standing history of working with DOJ and
    helping develop the center and staffing it to those needs, and
    we look forward to that continued collaboration.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Banks.

                            HON. JIM BANKS,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM INDIANA

        Senator Banks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. DiGiacomo--did
    I say that right?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Yes, sir----
        Senator Banks. Close?
        Ms. DiGiacomo [continuing]. DiGiacomo.
        Senator Banks. You talk more generally about the
    relationship between the Bureau and the VA, but can you be more
    specific? Is it just the two of you who communicate? Are there
    task forces between the two departments? Can you be more
    specific about what that rhythm of communication looks like
    between the two?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Absolutely. So, as I mentioned in my opening
    statement, we have that three-tiered model. We have veterans
    scattered all across the Bureau of Prisons, and those that are
    at institutions under our tiered models. We have self-help
    resources. We have staff dedicated at our institutions, such as
    our special population coordinators. These are individuals
    helping our special populations such as our incarcerated
    veterans. We also have reentry affairs coordinators who are
    also assisting that population. So, those individuals are
    reaching out directly to those local VA points of contact that
    they have, who are working collaboratively together at that
    local level in the community in which our institutions reside.
        Senator Banks. Is this new or is this what we've always
    done? I mean, help me----
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Honestly, I don't know the history. I know
    that as long as I have been in the Reentry Services Division,
    this has happened as far as this collaboration and working
    directly with the VA. I think that's what separates the Bureau
    of Prisons, maybe, from some of the state systems, you know,
    that we are both at this federal level, so we have the ability
    to share data more easily such as when individuals come into
    our custody. You know, not only are we asking them if they
    served and looking at their pre-sentence report--but we're also
    making that outreach to the VA through data sharing to cross-
    reference (VRRS), which makes our communication between the
    two, I think, a little bit easier than maybe from at a state
    level.
        Senator Banks. Would you say it works?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Absolutely.
        Senator Banks. And what would you say we need to do better?
    Where do we need to do better between communication and
    collaboration between the two?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. I think communication.
        Senator Banks. What are you working on?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Well, I would say one of the things that
    we're working on is resources, right? I think it's no surprise
    the Bureau of Prisons is in desperate need of resources. We
    need more people to help in this area. What we'd love to have
    is special population coordinators at every single one of our
    institutions to be able to help the population, because----
        Senator Banks. Specifically, to work with veterans?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Yes, sir.
        Senator Banks. Good. I think what you do is really
    important, and I know that you know this because you said
    homelessness drives incarceration, and incarceration leads to
    homelessness. So, it's true among veterans, true among
    everybody else. Can you talk about the Bureau of Prisons
    national reentry strategy, and how that aims to break that
    cycle?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Absolutely. And this goes for everyone in
    our custody. The Bureau of Prisons takes a holistic approach to
    each individual that comes into our custody, looking at what
    their needs are. Everyone comes in with a different set of
    needs, and we try to build off the strengths that they have.
    So, we start there by looking at: what are the needs, what got
    them here, and what are the gaps that need to be filled, and
    how do we approach filling those gaps? Whether it be with
    educational programming, programming as it relates to trauma or
    PTSD, or those things that do affect our incarcerated veterans,
    and making sure that they get the programming that's going to
    set them up.
        Another great thing about the Bureau of Prisons, I think,
    that separates us from some of the state correction agencies is
    the fact that we do have a reentry transition into the
    community. Individuals in our custody, all of our offenders,
    have the ability under the Second Chance Act, to transition to
    their community before they actually release. So, we give them
    an opportunity to live in the community before they actually
    release, and that makes that transition and that reentry much
    easier.
        Senator Banks. Good. Dr. O'Toole, I introduced legislation
    to permanently authorize the Health Care for Homeless Veterans
    (HCHV) program. It provides medical care for homeless veterans
    and connects them to housing. How important is it to make that
    program permanent?
        Dr. O'Toole. Thank you, Senator. I think it's very
    important. VA has made significant strides in reducing
    homelessness, and one of the reasons why is because we are an
    integrated system and an integrated model that is able to
    connect housing with needed healthcare services, needed legal
    services, as demonstrated here, and needed social services.
        Just to emphasize that point. Within the context of the
    Veterans Justice Program, 81 percent of individuals enrolled in
    the Veterans Justice Program are diagnosed with a mental health
    problem, and 56 percent with a substance abuse problem. As a
    result of being enrolled in this program, 94 percent of those
    individuals with a mental health diagnosis go on to receive
    healthcare within the VA system. In mental health the previous
    year, that's 17 visits per patient. For substance use
    treatment, it's 15 visits per patient. That's a real, very
    meaningful, and significant difference that wouldn't occur if
    we didn't have an integrated approach. And so, absolutely, I
    endorse what you're saying.
        Senator Banks. Thank you. My time has expired.
        Chairman Moran. Let me make sure I understand something.
    Most of our conversation about Veterans Treatment Courts, the
    vast extent of it, is going to be about Veterans Treatment
    Courts in state courts. Is that true? This may not be the panel
    to ask this question, but I think that's true. And in fact, I
    think there are very few federal courts that have a Veteran
    Treatment Court. And so, what you're talking to us about
    federal corrections facilities, they are dealing with veterans
    absent a veteran treatment court. You are just taking care of
    veterans without the services that come in a courtroom, between
    a veteran and the state district court judge. That would be
    where we are. Is that right?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Well, I'm probably not the appropriate
    person to speak about how the courts work. What I can say is,
    I'm sure some of these individuals may have made their way
    through some type of veterans court previously before coming
    into our system, but oftentimes, their military service is
    taken into account in any recommendation that's being given by
    that federal judge in regards to the services that that
    incarcerated veteran may need. The Bureau of Prisons does our
    very best to make sure that we're responding to those
    recommendations from the court.
        Chairman Moran. So, the veterans you deal with in the
    Federal Bureau of Prisons are veterans who you learn are
    veterans and then try to provide them additional support and
    help, or you're trying to follow a federal judge's direction on
    how that veteran should be cared for?
        Ms. DiGiacomo. Yes, sir.
        Chairman Moran. Okay. Anything else, Senator Banks?
        Senator Banks. No, thank you.
        Chairman Moran. I want to once again thank our witnesses,
    both this panel and the previous, for their testimony today,
    our Committee, and Members that were here, and our audience
    that participated as well. Each member has five legislative
    days in which to submit statements or questions for the record.
    Any Senator who would like to submit a question for the record,
    please do so in a timely manner, and ask our witnesses to
    respond to any questions they have received following today's
    hearing in a timely manner as well.
        With that, the hearing is adjourned. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 5:29 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                                A P P E N D I X

                              Prepared Statements
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                            Questions for the Record
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                            Statement for the Record
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                      [all]