[Senate Hearing 119-305]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                       S. Hrg. 119-305

                          PENDING LEGISLATION
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
                   PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                                   on


S. 462                                      S. 2787                             S. 3695
S. 1349                                     S. 2860                             H.R. 204
S. 1464                                     S. 2968                             H.R. 677
S. 1497                                     S. 3004                             H.R. 952
S. 1981                                     S. 3082                             H.R. 1829
S. 2417                                     S. 3493                             H.R. 3872
S. 2554                                     S. 3526                             H.R. 3937
S. 2754                                     S. 3527
 


                               __________

                           FEBRUARY 12, 2026

                               __________
                               
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                               


                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                              __________
                              
                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
62-927                    WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
      
               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                        MIKE LEE, Utah, Chairman
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
STEVE DAINES, Montana                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
TOM COTTON, Arkansas                 MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
DAVID McCORMICK, Pennsylvania        ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        ALEX PADILLA, California
LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska               RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
                                 ------                                

           Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests, and Mining

                        John Barrasso, Chairman

JAMES E. RISCH                       CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO
STEVE DAINES                         RON WYDEN
TOM COTTON                           MAZIE K. HIRONO
JAMES C. JUSTICE                     ANGUS S. KING, JR.
CINDY HYDE-SMITH                     JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER
LISA MURKOWSKI                       ALEX PADILLA

                  Wendy Baig, Majority Staff Director
    Chris Prandoni, Majority Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel
           David Gardner, Majority Professional Staff Member
                 Jasmine Hunt, Minority Staff Director
                 Sam E. Fowler, Minority Chief Counsel
        Maya Hermann, Minority Natural Resources Policy Director
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Barrasso, Hon. John, Subcommittee Chairman and a U.S. Senator 
  from 
  Wyoming........................................................     1
Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine, Subcommittee Ranking Member and a 
  U.S. Senator from Nevada.......................................     2
Daines, Hon. Steve, a U.S. Senator from Montana..................     3
Heinrich, Hon. Martin, a U.S. Senator from New Mexico............    16

                               WITNESSES

Checketts, Ty, President, Association of National Grasslands.....    18
Raby, Jon, Nevada State Director, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. 
  Department of the Interior.....................................    24
French, Christopher, Associate Chief, U.S. Forest Service, U.S. 
  Department of Agriculture......................................    40
Regan, Julie, Executive Director, Tahoe Regional Planning Agency.    60

          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Alaska Rainforest Defenders:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   607
Archuleta, Floyd:
    Letter for the Record........................................   151
Baker, Robert D. et al.:
    Article entitled ``A New Frontier: Managing the Forests in 
      Alaska, 1970-1995'' published by Intaglio, Inc., 1995......   336
Barnes, Beret:
    Letter for the Record........................................   268
Barrasso, Hon. John:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
Bernstein, Mary-Claire:
    Letter for the Record........................................   269
BlueRibbon Coalition:
    Letter for the Record........................................     5
Bogart, Steven:
    Letter for the Record........................................   270
Buck, Julia:
    Letter for the Record........................................   271
Butler, Paul:
    Letter for the Record........................................   272
California Wilderness Coalition:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   192
Carbon County, Utah:
    Letter for the Record........................................   123
Carbon Water Conservancy District:
    Letter for the Record........................................   125
Carr, Kaitlyn M.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   273
Center for Biological Diversity:
    Letter for the Record........................................   263
Checketts, Ty:
    Opening Statement............................................    18
    Written Testimony............................................    20
Chicagof Conservation Council:
    Letter for the Record........................................   274
Conservation Lands Foundation:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   176
Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine:
    Opening Statement............................................     2
Crandall, Karen:
    Letter for the Record........................................   276
Daghero, Mowgli:
    Letter for the Record........................................   277
Daines, Hon. Steve:
    Opening Statement............................................     3
    Poster depicting grazing allotments in the Middle Fork Judith 
      Wilderness Study Area......................................   111
Daniello, Paul:
    Letter for the Record........................................   279
Davidson, Kirk:
    Letter for the Record........................................   280
de Cavi, Sabina:
    Letter for the Record........................................   281
DellaSalla, Dominick A.:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   266
    Editorial entitled ``My Turn: Why I Oppose Privatization of 
      the Tongass Rainforest'' published in the Juneau Empire on 
      October 29, 2024...........................................   604
Donovan, Brittany:
    Letter for the Record........................................   319
Down, Richard:
    Letter for the Record........................................   282
Eastern Sandoval Citizens Association and Las Placitas 
  Association:
    Statement for the Record dated May 13, 2019..................    82
    Letter for the Record dated February 25, 2026................   173
Echo-Hawk, Walter R.:
    Article entitled ``A Context for Setting Modern Congressional 
      Indian Policy in Southeast Alaska''........................   401
Flammer, Steve:
    Letter for the Record........................................   283
Fox, Sage:
    Letter for the Record........................................   318
Franzen, George:
    Letter for the Record........................................   106
French, Christopher:
    Opening Statement............................................    40
    Written Testimony............................................    42
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   118
French, Jesse:
    Letter for the Record........................................   284
Gorsuch, Lee:
    Letter addressed to Amy Miller of Alaska Public Radio, dated 
      December 7, 1993...........................................   610
Great Falls Bicycle Club:
    Letter for the Record........................................     8
Harold, Stephanie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   285
Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
    Opening Statement............................................    16
    Support packet for the Buffalo Tract Protection Act..........    79
    Support packet for the Cerro de la Olla Wilderness 
      Establishment Act..........................................   139
Holt, Jr., Stacy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   286
Incline Village General Improvement District:
    Letter for the Record........................................   160
Institute of Social and Economic Research, University of Alaska 
  Anchorage:
    Report entitled ``A Study of Five Southeast Alaska 
      Communities'' published in February 1994...................   447
Judith Basin (MT) County Commissioners:
    Letter for the Record........................................     9
Kautzer, Schyan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   289
Keep Tahoe Blue:
    Letter for the Record........................................   179
Kemp, Molly:
    Letter for the Record with attached summary and review by 
      John Wisenbaugh of the Institute of Social and Economic 
      Research report ``A Study of Five Southeast Alaska 
      Communities''..............................................   291
Kilby, Mitchell E.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   300
Klingel, Jon:
    Letter for the Record........................................   155
Knight, Rebecca:
    Commentary entitled ``What So-Called `Landless' Supporters 
      and Media Don't Tell You''.................................   598
    Additional commentary on S. 2554.............................   602
(The) Las Placitas Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................    81
Lee, Hon. Mike:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   120
    Map entitled ``Land Conveyance Near Price, Utah, May 8, 
      2025''.....................................................   121
    Letters of support for S. 3004...............................   122
    Maps related to S. 3004 (Figures 1-10).......................   126
    Minutes from August 13, 2025 Price City Council meeting, 
      including proposed alternative to the Upper Price River 
      Watershed Environmental Impact Statement...................   136
Lujan Grisham, Hon. Michelle:
    Letter for the Record........................................   103
Mackrow, Paula:
    Letter for the Record........................................   303
Mapes, Craig:
    Letter for the Record........................................   304
Mapes, Lynda V.:
    Seattle Times article entitled ``Target on Tongass: The 
      Wildest National Forest May Soon Lose Its Protections'' 
      published on January 3, 2026...............................   305
Meade, Parker:
    Letter for the Record........................................   314
Menchego, Timothy:
    Letter for the Record........................................    91
Montana Farm Bureau Federation:
    Letter for the Record........................................    12
Montana Outfitters and Guides Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................    13
Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife:
    Letter for the Record........................................    10
Montana Stockgrowers Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................    14
National Parks Conservation Association:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   190
National Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   162
(The) Nature Conservancy:
    Letter for the Record........................................    71
Olson, Rebecca:
    Letter for the Record........................................   315
Outdoor Alliance:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   180
Outer Continental Shelf Governors Coalition:
    Letter for the Record........................................   157
Pentz, Wyatt:
    Letter for the Record........................................   316
Placitas Chamber of Commerce:
    Letter of for the Record.....................................   100
Poirier, Jeanne:
    Letter for the Record........................................   317
Powell County (MT) Board of Commissioners:
    Letter for the Record........................................    15
Price City Municipal Corporation:
    Letter for the Record........................................   122
Price River Water Users Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   124
Prouty, Carolyn:
    Letter for the Record........................................   288
Pueblo of Santa Ana:
    Letter for the Record........................................    90
Questa, NM (Village of):
    Letter for the Record........................................   147
Raby, Jon:
    Opening Statement............................................    24
    Written Testimony............................................    26
    Questions for the Record.....................................   114
Red River, NM (Town of):
    Letter for the Record........................................   148
Regan, Julie:
    Opening Statement............................................    60
    Written Testimony with supplemental material.................    63
Representatives of the Southeast Alaska Landless Native 
  Communities:
    Statement for the Record dated February 26, 2026.............   440
    Statement for the record dated December 2, 2020..............   570
Rio Grande Del Norte Coalition:
    Letter for the Record........................................   152
Romero, Eliu E.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   150
Sagebrush Habitat Conservation Fund:
    Letter for the Record........................................   164
San Antonio de Las Huertas Land Grant:
    Letter for the Record........................................    94
Sandoval County (NM) Board of Commissioners:
    Resolution No. 8-6-15.7......................................    95
    Letter for the Record........................................    97
Sandoval, Michael T.:
    Letter for the Record........................................    93
Sealaska Corporation:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   332
Shoup, Jack:
    Letter for the Record........................................   321
Specialty Equipment Market Association and Off-Road Business 
  Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   187
Sportsmen for the Rubies:
    Letter for the Record........................................   169
Stewart, Nathanial:
    Letter for the Record........................................   322
Storey, Nate:
    Letter for the Record........................................   323
Street, Allan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   324
Suh, Ian:
    Letter for the Record........................................   325
Surfrider Foundation:
    Letter for the Record........................................   209
Sykes, Allison:
    Letter for the Record........................................   326
Taos County (NM) Board of Commissioners:
    Resolution No. 2018-21.......................................   143
Taos Pueblo Warchief:
    Letter for the Record........................................   142
Taos (NM) Town Council:
    Resolution 18-28.............................................   145
Tenakee Springs, AK (City of):
    Letter for the Record........................................   301
Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership:
    Letter for the Record........................................   171
Torres, Jack:
    Letter for the Record........................................   105
Torres, Marty:
    Letter for the Record........................................   149
Trout Unlimited:
    Statement for the Record on S. 3526..........................   212
    Statement for the Record on S. 3527..........................   214
U.S. Department of the Interior:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   206
Uy, Junice:
    Letter for the Record........................................   327
Washoe County (NV) Board of Commissioners:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   166
Watts, John:
    Letter for the Record........................................   329
Western Watersheds Project:
    Letter for the Record........................................   168
(The) Wilderness Society:
    Letter for the Record........................................    73
Wilderness Watch:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   215
    Policy paper entitled ``Keeping the Wild in Wilderness: 
      Minimizing Non-Conforming Uses in the National Wilderness 
      Preservation System'' published in June 2005...............   224
    Appendix I--Policies and Guidelines for Fish and Wildlife 
      Management in National Forest and Bureau of Land Management 
      Wilderness.................................................   244
    Copy of House Report 101-405 from February 21, 1990..........   256
    Factsheet entitled ``Science Doesn't Support Livestock for 
      Fire Prevention''..........................................   262
Wilson, Karen and Jeff:
    Letter for the Record........................................   330
Wynn, Carter:
    Letter for the Record........................................   331

----------
The text for each of the bills addressed in this hearing can be found 
on the Committee's website at: https://www.energy.senate.gov/hearings/
2026/2/public-lands-forests-and-mining-subcommittee-to-receive-
testimony-on-pending-legislation

 
                          PENDING LEGISLATION

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 2026

                               U.S. Senate,
 Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests, and Mining,
                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m. in 
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John 
Barrasso, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

    Senator Barrasso. I call this hearing to order. Good 
morning and welcome, all of you, to the hearing today. I 
appreciate all of you making the trip to be with us. We have a 
number of bills on today's agenda, priorities across the West. 
This morning's hearing will look at many pieces of legislation 
that impact our federal lands.
    Families and communities in Wyoming and throughout the West 
depend on federal lands for energy and mineral development, for 
grazing, for forest management, and for recreation. Included in 
the agenda is a bill of my own that is important to those who 
graze on federal lands. I would like to take a moment to 
highlight the importance of this legislation, S. 2787, the 
Grasslands Grazing Act. Livestock grazing on federal lands has 
a strong tradition in Wyoming and across the West. Federal 
grazing is a necessary tool for wildfire prevention and for 
promoting rangeland health. It is widely used by both the U.S. 
Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management. The U.S. 
Forest Service manages both national forests and national 
grasslands. Livestock grazing is done on both national forest 
land and grasslands. Obtaining a federal permit for grazing on 
national forest land is common practice. However, there is a 
lack of federal certainty and clarity for obtaining the same 
permits for grasslands.
    In Wyoming, cattle graze on the Thunder Basin National 
Grassland, located in northeastern Wyoming in the Powder River 
Basin between the Bighorn Mountains and Black Hills. It 
encompasses a little over a half a million acres. That's a lot 
of land. My bill helps bring regulatory clarity for grazing 
permits from the U.S. Forest Service. Ranchers across the West 
depend on access to grazing on our national grasslands. They 
deserve to have certainty that their grazing permits will be 
approved in a timely manner. The Grasslands Grazing Act will 
give Wyoming's ranching families the stability that they need 
to keep their operations running strong.
    I would like to welcome all four of our witnesses here this 
morning, especially Ty Checketts, who is always wonderful to 
have here. He is one of the wonderful Wyoming ranchers who have 
been back to DC to testify, speaking on behalf of the important 
work that they do each and every day on their operations. I 
look forward to hearing your testimony, and from all of you. 
But first, I would like to turn to Senator Cortez Masto for her 
opening remarks.

       OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, 
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA

    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso. I also 
want to thank Chairman Lee and Ranking Member Heinrich for this 
legislative hearing today. Today is the second legislative 
hearing held by the Subcommittee, and I look forward to working 
with my colleagues on planning several more this year. We have 
a full agenda. As you have heard, there are 23 bills. Several 
of today's bills were previously processed through the 
Committee last Congress, and I look forward to working with my 
colleagues to advance them further.
    I also want to welcome all the panelists today. It's great 
to see everybody, from Jon Raby to Christopher French. Mr. 
Checketts, welcome, again, and also to the wonderful Julie 
Regan. I appreciate that Julie has come all the way over from 
Tahoe. She is Executive Director of the Tahoe Regional Planning 
Agency. She will be providing testimony specifically in support 
of S. 3695, which is the Santini-Burton Modernization Act. 
Thank you so much.
    And I, too, want to talk about some of the bills that I 
have on the agenda today. I so appreciate that there are 
several of my bills. One of them is S. 1349, which is the Ruby 
Mountains Protection Act. This bill, which has already been 
favorably approved by this Committee in each of the previous 
three Congresses--let me say that again, three Congresses--
would prohibit oil and gas development within the Ruby 
Mountains area of the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, which 
is located in Elko and White Pine Counties in Nevada. The bill 
was created after the Forest Service received a request by an 
out-of-state member of the public to develop 54,000 acres of 
land within the Ruby Mountains. In 2019, the Forest Service 
determined the area was not appropriate for leasing due to the 
low potential for oil and gas resources and due to the 
extensive involvement of the community in opposition to leasing 
efforts. This bill codifies the determination that was made by 
the Forest Service under the first Trump administration, 
ensuring this great public space is preserved for its 
recreational opportunities, outdoor economy, rare wildlife and 
plant life, and the local culture that these mountains support.
    The other bill is S. 1981, the Strategic Grazing to Reduce 
Risk of Wildfire Act. This bill would direct the Interior 
Department and the Forest Service to work with grazing permit 
holders to create a strategy to utilize livestock grazing on 
public lands to mitigate risk posed by wildfires. In states 
where most of the land is managed by the Federal Government, 
like my home State of Nevada, ranchers and cattlemen rely on 
public lands for grazing purposes. Now, more than ever, due to 
climate change and historic drought conditions, these lands and 
the populated areas near them are threatened by wildfires that 
grow in size and intensity almost yearly.
    And then, I would also like to talk about S. 3695, which is 
the Santini-Burton Modernization Act. This bill is bipartisan, 
bicameral, and bi-state. It has wide local support from the 
Washoe Tribe of Nevada and California, local government, and 
the business community from both sides of Lake Tahoe--
California and Nevada. It has the full support from our Tahoe 
delegation in the Senate, co-sponsored by my colleagues, 
Senators Rosen, Padilla, and Schiff, and my co-lead in the 
House, Congressman Kevin Kiley from California. This bill 
modernizes the original Santini-Burton Act of 1980 that 
utilized revenues from targeted land disposal in Clark County 
in Southern Nevada to preserve Lake Tahoe from growing threats 
of environmental degradation and from rapid development through 
land acquisition and land management on both the Nevada and 
California sides of the lake. Changes were made to the law in 
1998 that limited the use of funds granted by the act, by the 
land sales. However, preserving the pristine quality of Lake 
Tahoe requires our everlasting vigilance and ability to adapt 
evolving practices. Modernizing the Santini-Burton Act would 
allow Tahoe partners with additional tools to manage public 
lands and address visitation impacts. The goal here, and I am 
hoping working with our colleagues, is that we can continue the 
original intent of the Santini-Burton Act.
    I just want to mention two other bills on today's agenda 
that I am also appreciative of, and they are very important to 
my home state, and they are sponsored by my colleague, Senator 
Rosen. That is S. 462, the Truckee Meadows Public Lands 
Management Act and S. 3493, the Carson City Public Land 
Correction Act. Both of these bills, like the Southern Nevada 
Lands bill, received a hearing in December, were favorably 
reported by the Committee with bipartisan support last 
Congress, and are community driven. They prioritize locally 
identified needs, including specific land disposals to 
facilitate local economic development and residential housing 
needs, conveyances to facilitate efficient municipal management 
or support for local tribal communities, and efforts to 
preserve certain public lands for conservation and outdoor 
recreation.
    I look forward to the hearing today. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much, Senator Cortez Masto.
    Senator Daines.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. STEVE DAINES, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA

    Senator Daines. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Cortez 
Masto, thank you.
    Included in today's agenda is one of my bills, the Montana 
Sportsmen Conservation Act. Our family roots in Montana go back 
five generations. My wife and I spend as much time outdoors as 
we can throughout wilderness areas in Montana, as well as our 
national forests. Montanans are clear about the importance of 
their public lands, and count me in as one who believes 
strongly in that. Local input and the best available science 
guide land management plan revisions, but unfortunately, 
congressional inaction has left many areas in Montana in limbo. 
The original intent of wilderness study areas was for land 
management agencies to study and then make recommendations to 
Congress as to whether an area is suitable and should be made 
wilderness or should be released to general management and not 
suitable for wilderness. There is so much misinformation--and 
frankly, lying--going on on this issue, but I want to set the 
record very, very straight. Congress, then, must act on these 
recommendations. Montanans are tired of going through the 
process of studying, providing input on these areas, and then 
not seeing any action taken or resolution. The consequence of 
this inaction is unacceptable, and I am determined to fix it.
    Following a multi-year, collaborative process with strong 
public comment, spanning multiple administrations, the three 
areas in my bill, covering just over 100,000 acres, have been 
deemed unsuitable for permanent wilderness. Let me say that 
again--multiple collaborations, over multiple administrations--
have been deemed unsuitable for wilderness designation. These 
are the Hoodoo Mountain, Wales Creek, and the Middle Fork 
Judith Wilderness Study Areas. The bill is supported by both 
the Powell and Judith Basin County Commissions, as well as 
multiple outdoor recreation, timber, and ag groups. I ask 
unanimous consent to add the eight letters of support I have 
received into the record.
    Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
    [The letters referred to follow:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    Senator Daines. I would also like to note that if this bill 
would be enacted, the lands included in it, as well as the 
Forest System as a whole, will continue to enjoy statutory 
protection from NEPA, the Endangered Species Act, the Clean 
Water Act, the Clean Air Act, CERCLA, FLPMA, and multiple other 
conservation and land management statutes and policies. I hope 
that sets the record straight, because there is a lot of 
misinformation about this issue. The Forest Service, with 
public input, also develops forest management plans and travel 
analysis reports. The Montana Sportsmen Conservation Act does 
not strip protections, but instead, improves the ability to 
restore wildlife habitats, enhance sportsmen opportunities, 
mitigate wildfire risk, and increase multiple-use opportunities 
for Montanans. Montanans have waited too long for Congress to 
act on these three WSAs. It's time to listen to the science, 
listen to those on the ground, respect the collaborative 
process with massive amounts of public input, and return these 
areas to general management with multiple conservation 
protections remaining in place, as I mentioned earlier.
    I want to thank our witnesses for their attendance at 
today's hearing. I look forward to your testimony.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Daines.
    Senator Heinrich.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH, 
                  U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO

    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman, and I want to thank 
both you and Ranking Member Cortez Masto for convening this 
Subcommittee hearing today. This hearing will add to the 
significant number of conservation bills ready for markup, and 
I look forward to working both with you and Chairman Lee to get 
them marked up, passed, and frankly, signed into law, most 
importantly.
    I would like to highlight two of the bills that I have on 
the agenda that are widely supported in New Mexico. The first 
bill would implement a mineral withdrawal for four small 
parcels in the Placitas area, just north of Albuquerque. The 
threat of a gravel mine in the area and the particulate 
pollution that comes with it brought the community together to 
seek permanent protection for these parcels. The largest area, 
commonly known as the Buffalo Tract, is valued for hiking and 
outdoor recreation, but also serves as an important wildlife 
corridor between the Sandia Mountains to the south and the 
Sangre de Cristo Mountains to the north. These parcels are 
adjacent to a neighborhood and a community. There are literally 
several gravel mines only a few miles from the Buffalo Tract 
that are not controversial in this community because they are 
in an appropriate location. Further, the lands in this 
withdrawal proposal are culturally and ecologically significant 
to two Pueblos, two Native American tribes in New Mexico, who 
support this effort. For these reasons, it is an inappropriate 
location for gravel mining. This has been, literally, a decade-
long effort, and I appreciate the support that the community as 
a whole has provided for this bill in past Congresses, from the 
local municipality, to the county, to the local tribes, and the 
neighborhood association. It goes on and on because this is not 
a controversial bill in my state.
    My second bill would establish the Cerro de la Olla 
Wilderness within the Rio Grande del Norte National Monument, 
and this parcel encompasses Cerro de la Olla, which is a 
towering shield volcano over the Taos Plateau where the people 
of Taos have hunted, gathered herbs, and collected firewood for 
literally generations. The high elevation of Cerro de la Olla 
offers solitude and unparallelled views, while the surrounding 
landscape of the monument offers recreational opportunities, 
including whitewater rafting, fishing, hiking, and camping. 
Designating this wilderness will ensure that all the above 
values are preserved so that future generations can experience 
them.
    In addition, this bill would make some minor adjustments to 
the boundaries of the Rio Grande del Norte National Monument to 
include recent Land and Water Conservation Fund acquisitions 
adjacent to the monument. The acquisitions will allow new 
public access to the monument, and increase opportunities for 
both recreation and traditional uses, but most importantly, we 
are further protecting these acquisitions from commercial 
development in an area that is renowned in New Mexico for its 
viewshed. LWCF acquisitions such as these are great examples of 
a community coming together to build economic development 
opportunities, to unlock access for pristine hunting 
opportunities, hiking, recreation opportunities, and provide an 
opportunity for protecting fragile and valuable landscapes. 
This bill is a major priority for the Taos community, including 
both the county, the Pueblo of Taos, the city, and I am proud 
to be able to offer this bill for consideration today.
    Both of these bills have had literally years of support and 
been processed by this Committee in past Congresses with 
bipartisan support. Understanding that the Chairman of the 
overall Committee and I may differ in opinion about this type 
of conservation legislation, I hope that we will be able to 
have these bills considered and advanced on a markup short-list 
soon. And once again, I want to thank you, Chairman Barrasso, 
and the Ranking Member for having this hearing today.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.
    We are going to turn to the panel now, and it's an honor to 
introduce Mr. Ty Checketts this morning. Welcome to the 
Committee. He is President of the Association of National 
Grasslands. He is a Wyoming native from Newcastle, Wyoming. His 
wonderful wife, Becky, is here. She has joined us as well. 
Thank you, Becky, for being here this morning. Good to have 
both of you here. Ty ranches on his family operation. They run 
a thousand head of Black Angus on about 65,000 acres of both 
public and private land. He is a member of the Wyoming Stock 
Growers Association. He also holds a seat on the board of the 
Public Lands Council, and is a member of the National 
Cattlemen's Beef Association. Ty, I am very grateful that you 
are here today. I want to thank you for representing the 
ranchers across the United States.
    I also want to take a moment to thank the other witnesses 
for joining us this morning, especially the Nevada State 
Director of the Bureau of Land Management, Mr. Jon Raby, and 
Associate Chief of the United States Forest Service within the 
U.S. Department of Agriculture, Mr. Chris French, who is a 
friend and regular witness to the Committee. Thank you both for 
coming here again. I would also like to welcome Ms. Julie 
Regan, who is the Executive Director of the Tahoe Regional 
Planning Agency, and I look forward to hearing everyone's 
testimony this morning.
    Mr. Checketts.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF TY CHECKETTS, 
         PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF NATIONAL GRASSLANDS

    Mr. Checketts. Good morning, Chairman Barrasso, Ranking 
Member Cortez Masto, and other members of the Committee. I am 
grateful for the opportunity to be here to testify on Senate 
bill 2787, the Grasslands Grazing Act of 2025.
    For background, my name is Ty Checketts. I am President of 
the Association of National Grasslands, and also serve as a 
board member on the Public Lands Council, a member of the 
Wyoming Stock Growers, and also NCBA, like the Senator said. 
Most importantly though, I am a husband and a father. Our 
operation is on the Thunder Basin National Grassland. My family 
and I own and operate the historic Fiddleback Ranch. We run on 
65,000 acres. We run a thousand cows. Without our permits, it 
would be impossible for us to ranch on this scale.
    ANG represents 30 national grasslands, grazing 
associations, and districts. There are 1,275 members that 
utilize one million AUMs of permitted grazing on four million 
acres on the national grasslands across the West. We work 
directly with our Forest Service friends to manage and improve 
these lands for long-term sustainability. Grazing on federal 
lands is diverse, but the laws governing it shouldn't create 
winners and losers. National grassland permittees have fewer 
rights than our friends on the BLM and National Forest lands. 
This inequity stems from FLPMA's final language in 1976. It 
originally included the national grassland permittees, but was 
later removed in committee, leaving them without due process 
protections under 43 U.S.C. 1752. As a result, the U.S. Forest 
Service created two classes of permits. Under 36 CFR 222.3, 
Forest Service permittees have more rights. National grassland 
permittees have fewer rights.
    It requires a simple change in language to replace the 
words ``lands within national forests'' with ``National Forest 
System lands.'' What this means for us as producers is, it 
gives us 10-year permits, priority for renewal, the preference 
system, written notice and opportunity to correct these issues 
before suspension or cancellation, and two-year notice before 
cancellation except in emergency. These are basic new process 
protections that BLM or Forest Service permittees currently 
enjoy. This bill simply puts national grasslands on equal 
standing. Long-term permits equals long-term stewardship, and 
allows us, as ranchers, to develop water, maintain fences, soil 
and forage improvements, and gives us financial stability. A 
10-year permit gives our lenders the confidence so we can 
borrow the money we need to operate. Producers can plan and 
invest and stay on the land.
    The average age of a rancher is nearly 60 years old. Over 
the next 20 years, 70 percent of ranch land will change hands. 
Young producers need predictability and sustainability to stay 
in the business. Since 2017, the U.S. has lost 17 percent of 
cattle ranches--more than 150,000 operations. The national herd 
is at a 75-year low. Meanwhile, beef demand is up over nine 
percent from the past decade. We can't afford to lose more 
ranchers, and ranchers can't afford to lose more AUMs. The 
USDA's own plan calls for no net loss of AUMs. Sixty percent of 
the western beef herd grazes on federal lands. Fifty percent of 
the nation's breeding ewes do as well. Department of Interior 
estimates $1.5 billion in direct economic impact and $8.5 
billion annually in ecosystem services. National grasslands are 
some of the highest quality of forage available. When you can 
plan, you can manage better and the land benefits.
    Grasslands cover 25 percent of the Earth's surface and they 
store 34 percent of the global carbon. Grazing supports native 
grasses, which are so important to our ecosystem. It reduces 
invasive species, such as cheatgrass, lowers wildfire risk that 
destroys communities and costs millions, and supports 
biodiversity in our wildlife. The changes this legislation 
addresses only extend to U.S.C. 1752 due process rights, not 
all of FLPMA. The Conservation Practice program stays intact. 
Prior exemptions stay intact. Grazing associations keep their 
current structure.
    Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, members of the Subcommittee, 
Senate bill 2787 is a simple fix with enormous impact. It 
creates a uniform, equitable, and predictable framework for 
ranchers who rely on the national grasslands. It helps ensure 
the long-term viability of rural communities, rangelands, 
America's food supply, and ultimately, our national security.
    Thank you for your time. I am happy to answer any 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Checketts follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much for being here.
    Mr. Raby.

OPENING STATEMENT OF JON RABY, NEVADA STATE DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF 
        LAND MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

    Mr. Raby. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Cortez Masto, 
and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity 
to testify on the bills on the hearing agenda related to the 
Bureau of Land Management.
    My name is Jon Raby, and I am the State Director for the 
Bureau of Land Management in Nevada, an agency I have had the 
pleasure to work for for over 30 years. The BLM manages 
approximately 245 million surface acres located primarily in 12 
western states and approximately 700 million acres of 
subsurface mineral estate. The Federal Land Policy and 
Management Act, or FLPMA, sets forth the BLM's multiple-use 
mission, directing that public lands generally be managed for a 
broad range of uses, such as energy development, livestock 
grazing, timber production, hunting and fishing, and 
recreation. FLPMA also requires BLM to manage public land 
resources on a sustained-yield basis for the benefit of current 
and future generations. Under the Trump administration, the BLM 
is managing the nation's public lands as national assets 
capable of growing our economy, helping balance the budget, and 
generating revenue for American taxpayers. These assets benefit 
all Americans. The BLM is working to fulfill the President's 
vision while protecting our beautiful lands and ensuring that 
America's public lands serve the American people.
    Many of the bills on today's agenda further the Trump 
administration's goals and priorities, particularly those 
related to mineral development, fire management, recreation and 
access, and supporting local communities. The administration is 
committed to unleashing American energy as part of the broader 
agenda of strengthening the economy and lowering the cost of 
living, and the BLM is working to secure a reliable and 
resilient domestic supply of minerals.
    BLM supports H.R. 3872, as it would expand the federal 
lands available for hardrock mineral development. This aligns 
with President Trump's direction to take immediate action to 
facilitate domestic mineral production to the maximum practical 
extent.
    Wildfires threaten lives and livelihoods and cost our 
nation hundreds of billions of dollars annually. The current 
administration is focused on streamlining organizational 
structures and regulations, including those needed to address 
today's wildfire crisis. The BLM welcomes the Subcommittee's 
interest in hazardous fuels reduction and supports S. 1981 and 
H.R. 204.
    Secretary Burgum recently reaffirmed the Department's 
commitment to expanding public access to the land and waters it 
manages by issuing Secretary's Order 3447, expanding hunting 
and fishing access, removing unnecessary barriers, and ensuring 
consistency across the Department of Interior lands and waters, 
which among other things, directs agencies to expand access and 
opportunities where compatible with law, safety, and 
conservation needs.
    Under Secretary Burgum's leadership, the BLM is taking 
concrete steps to implement and expand access to individuals 
with disabilities. The BLM supports S. 2968's objective of 
preserving accessibility and expanding outdoor recreation 
opportunities for Americans with disabilities and recognizes 
the importance of ensuring access to public lands in a manner 
that is safe, predictable, and consistent with applicable law. 
We welcome the opportunity to work with the sponsor and the 
Subcommittee on the bill.
    S. 3527 furthers the administration's recreation, timber 
production, and energy dominance goals while providing greater 
flexibility to manage and balance multiple uses, and the BLM 
supports the bill.
    Several bills on the agenda propose management designations 
that would restrict motorized vehicle use, decrease public 
access, prohibit mineral development, and limit the ability of 
BLM to adequately manage and protect the lands in response to 
changing conditions, including the growing risk of wildfire and 
changing public needs. The BLM does not support the special 
designations, mineral withdrawals, and other restrictions 
imposed in S. 462, S. 1464, and S. 1497.
    The BLM recognizes the challenges presented by irregular 
land ownership patters and believes that land conveyances are 
an important tool to ensure management strategies are effective 
and in the public interest. As such, the BLM supports the land 
conveyances proposed in S. 2554, S. 3493, and H.R. 952.
    Finally, the BLM has no objection to H.R. 3937, and looks 
forward to working with the Subcommittee and the sponsor to 
ensure the review directed by the bill includes all relevant 
agencies and mineral materials.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify on these important 
bills. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Raby follows:]
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    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so very much.
    Mr. French.

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER FRENCH, ASSOCIATE CHIEF, U.S. 
         FOREST SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

    Mr. French. Good morning. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso, 
Ranking Member Cortez Masto, and other members of the 
Subcommittee. It is my pleasure to be here today. Today, I will 
present the views of the U.S. Department of Agriculture on 16 
bills that pertain to the U.S. Forest Service.
    I am Chris French. I am the Associate Chief of the U.S. 
Forest Service, and in the wide-ranging nature of the bills we 
are discussing today, I think that when you look at all of 
them, it really demonstrates the breadth of the work that we do 
at the USDA Forest Service. The American people use national 
forests and grasslands for essential activities that support 
economies, ways of life, and American prosperity. Ranchers, 
loggers, miners, and recreationists, among others, rely on 
accessing these lands for their families, businesses, livestock 
grazing, timber harvesting, hunting and fishing, recreation, 
and mineral and energy development, all of which we will be 
discussing today in these bills.
    While the work we do on behalf of the American taxpayer is 
largely focused on delivering services locally, we recognize 
that management of our lands has broader regional and national 
impacts. So, I hope that today's discussion showcases the many 
ways in which national forests and grasslands provide benefit 
and opportunity to the entire country. While our positions vary 
across the bills, our testimony expresses our willingness to 
sit down and work with bill sponsors and the Subcommittee on 
the ideas they put forward. As always, I defer to the 
Department of the Interior for its views on the elements of 
these bills that would impact lands under its jurisdiction. 
Many of the bills included in today's hearing align with the 
Forest Service's commitment to ensuring the National Forest 
System lands are accessible and productive to the American 
people.
    S. 2968 updates the Forest Service travel management and 
motor vehicle use plans in order to facilitate access to a 
variety of recreation opportunities for all Americans. H.R. 
3872 expands opportunities for hardrock mineral leasing on 
federal lands. S. 2787 and S. 1981 promote grazing on national 
forests and grasslands, ensuring streamlined implementation of 
permitting and the use of grazing as a strategic wildfire risk 
reduction tool. We support the goal of all of these bills and 
we hope to work further with the bill sponsors on any technical 
adjustments.
    H.R. 204 supports the Agency's ongoing efforts to build 
trust with the American public around the work we do, and in 
this case, our efforts to reduce wildfire risk. We support this 
bill and would like to work with the sponsor to ensure the 
bill's reporting requirements fully capture wildland fire risk 
to communities, the scope and effectiveness of our treatment 
efforts, and the associated cost to the American people.
    The remaining 11 bills under discussion today direct land-
based changes in specific geographies. Across these bills, the 
Forest Service is committed to working with communities, 
tribes, and other local entities to resolve issues related to 
land uses. The Agency is similarly committed to working with 
you, Congress, to ensure that the bills' text achieves your 
intent. Across these bills, we do not support actions that 
limit our management flexibility or conflict with executive 
orders and other administration policies. To this end, the 
administration does not support further mineral withdraws from 
the federal, state and/or additional wilderness or wild and 
scenic river designations that limit our management.
    While our written testimony details some local concerns, in 
general, we support land conveyances, transfers, and disposals 
that make sense for our communities. In my experience, the 
legislative language directing these actions can often directly 
affect the agency timelines to complete them. We want to make 
sure that we are responsive and we meet your expected time 
frames established in the bills. So, for that reason, we hope 
to work with you to ensure that the bill language directing 
these actions facilitates prompt execution through the use of 
consistent language that streamlines our process requirements, 
reduces burden on agency resources, and effectively achieves 
the congressional intent.
    That concludes my testimony. I look forward to your 
questions and the opportunity to testify here today.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. French follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so very much.
    Ms. Regan.
    Ms. Regan. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Barrasso, 
Ranking Member Cortez Masto, and members of the Subcommittee. 
As I am Julie Regan, the Executive Director of the Tahoe 
Regional Planning Agency, I am prepared for S. 3695. So, I will 
cede my time to others until that is called for further in the 
program.
    Thank you.
    Senator Barrasso. Senator Hyde-Smith, would you like to 
talk about your bill before we go to the questions?
    Senator Hyde-Smith. I would, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and 
thank you to these witnesses for being willing to do what you 
are doing, and all the services that you provide, but 
definitely for your dedication. It is much appreciated. And I 
do appreciate the opportunity to speak on the American Shores 
Protection Act of 2025 that would codify the 2020 memorandum 
that placed a moratorium on oil and gas leasing in the eastern 
Gulf of America. The moratorium still remains in effect today, 
and the bill comes as the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management 
(BOEM) continues to advance the draft proposed program for the 
11th National Outer Continental Shelf Oil and Gas Leasing 
Program.
    The proposal fulfills BOEM's statutory responsibilities and 
it aligns with President Trump's executive order ``Unleashing 
American Energy''--what I have been so anxious to do. The 
proposal considers all potential options in federal waters that 
could benefit the American people. Expanding opportunities in 
the Gulf could help meet growing energy demand, create jobs, 
and support refineries along the Gulf Coast. Additionally, 
sales will help fund the Land and Water Conservation Fund, 
benefiting states across the country, not just Mississippi. 
Congress should allow BOEM's process to proceed without 
restricting the administration's authority.
    Thank you again, Mr. Chairman. I hope Congress continues 
exploring policies that strengthen American energy production 
on behalf of all Americans, and again, thank you guys for being 
here.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Hyde-Smith.
    Senator Murkowski, would you like to make an opening 
statement, or would you prefer that we proceed to the 
questioning? It's up to you, your choice.
    Senator Murkowski. Let's go ahead and proceed with the 
questioning, please.
    Senator Barrasso. All right, thank you.
    Mr. Checketts, if we can talk about some of the things you 
mentioned in your testimony, you know, almost half the land in 
Wyoming is owned by the Federal Government. In most of our 
states the Federal Government is the number one landlord for 
all of us here--public places that people from Wyoming depend 
on, accessing their livelihoods. Congress directed grazing, 
timber harvesting, and recreation to occur on these federal 
lands. National grasslands fall under a different authority, 
and therefore, there is no certainty when it comes to grazing 
permittees and the certainty that you talked about in your 
testimony. So, can you please describe the importance of 
certainty for you and other permittees on the national 
grasslands?
    Mr. Checketts. Senator Barrasso, it's so important that 
this bill passes. Let me explain. Currently, our grazing 
agreements can be canceled within 30 days--30-day notice. 
Imagine running a business where all you have is a 30-day 
guarantee. Many ranchers, such as myself, have debts. Many 
ranchers have obligations. We all have families to feed and 
cows to take care of. Think about the local economies, the 
schools, the hardware stores, the dealerships. Our local 
economies require ranching. We have to have ranching to support 
our rural way of life. It's the backbone of America. Some of 
the finest people I know are those who work every day out 
there, taking care of our lands to make them better for 
generations to come.
    Senator Barrasso. In a second, I am going to ask you what 
you actually have to go through each time a permit comes up for 
renewal because national grasslands and national forests fall 
under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service. They are not 
required to renew permits or allow grazing on the national 
grasslands. So, tell me what you have to go through.
    Mr. Checketts. Thank you, Senator. I am going to tell you a 
personal story. In 2022, when with the Thunder Basin Grazing 
Association went to renew our permits, there was a disagreement 
between our friends with the Forest Service, and we were simply 
told that if we did not sign, that we would be trespassing. So, 
we signed under duress. And I tell you, it is a stressful time 
for us, it is a stressful time for the Forest Service. Passing 
this bill will help us so that we have long-term sustainability 
on the 10-year deal, but that is something else that we should 
work on too.
    Senator Barrasso. So, you talked about the benefits to the 
local communities of the ranching and the agriculture. Could 
you also talk about how cattle grazing helps the national 
grasslands?
    Mr. Checketts. I would love to do that. I will tell you 
what, ranchers are the original conservationists. Nobody loves 
the land more than we do. Every day we work to protect the 
land, to preserve it, to make it better, to make it sustainable 
for our cattle, for our families, for our livelihoods, for the 
sportsmen that enjoy it. It helps with invasive species. As we 
graze, it protects against cheatgrass. Grazing protects us 
against the wildfires that destroy our local economies and cost 
millions of dollars each year.
    Senator Barrasso. So now that I have Chief French here, I 
am asking you, following up on what we have just heard, federal 
grazing permits from the U.S. Forest Service can be obtained 
for both national forest land and national grassland. Currently 
there is a lack of certainty that we are hearing about for the 
communities and for the ranchers and a lack of clarity for the 
permittees who wish to renew or obtain permits. How does the 
Forest Service undergo permit renewals for national forest land 
compared to the grasslands?
    Mr. French. It's under two different statutes. Mr. 
Checketts is right. There shouldn't be two different standards. 
They should be treated the same, and we would like to 
administer them in the same ways.
    Senator Barrasso. Great.
    And then in terms of wildfire, the United States Forest 
Service manages, what, 193 million acres of land, 154 national 
forests, 20 national grasslands, including, of course, the 
Thunder Basin National Grassland in my home State of Wyoming. 
Wildfires across the United States burn millions of acres every 
year--land at risk, homeowners at risk, the ranchers. How does 
grazing on Forest Service land actually help mitigate fire 
risk?
    Mr. French. It reduces fine fuels that carry those fires. 
It reduces dead fuels that often are carrying those fires, and 
most of those grassland systems, they evolved over time with 
fire as a part of them, and with heavy grazing. And so, it's a 
natural part of the system.
    Senator Barrasso. Great.
    Mr. French. It helps.
    Senator Barrasso. Mr. Checketts, anything else you would 
like to add?
    Mr. Checketts. This is so important, Senator, to take care 
of the ranchers, the local economies. I am so passionate about 
ranching. I mean, it is the backbone of America. As you know, 
in our home State of Wyoming, there are 500,000 people and a 
million cows. And everything that people use each day has beef 
in it, whether it's the makeup, whether it's our shampoo. 
Everything that has glycerin--I mean, beef is important.
    Senator Barrasso. It's what for dinner--and breakfast and 
lunch in Wyoming.
    Mr. Checketts. Beef, beef, beef, beef.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    Senator Cortez Masto.
    Thanks for being here.
    Mr. Checketts. Thank you.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you to the panelists 
as well.
    Ms. Regan, let me ask you a couple questions. I appreciate 
that you are here to talk about the Santini-Burton 
Modernization Act. To start with, why is the Santini-Burton 
Modernization Act necessary? If you would address that, and 
then also how it differs from the original act from 1980?
    Ms. Regan. Thank you, Senator Cortez Masto. Again, good 
morning, Chairman Barrasso and Ranking Member, and members of 
the Subcommittee. Julie Regan here, Executive Director of the 
Tahoe Regional Planning Agency. I will give you some brief 
introductory remarks and then continue to fine tune point the 
question.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF JULIE REGAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, TAHOE 
                    REGIONAL PLANNING AGENCY

    Ms. Regan. Our agency was formed by an interstate compact 
between California and Nevada, and ratified by Congress in 
1969. Our mission is to protect Lake Tahoe, a federally 
designated Outstanding National Resource Water, while 
supporting our local communities and economy. I do appreciate 
the opportunity to address your questions and the Committee 
today in support of the Santini-Burton Modernization Act, S. 
3695, a bi-state, bipartisan bill that is of the utmost 
importance to Lake Tahoe. The Tahoe Basin is the ancestral and 
current home of the Washoe people--the Washoe Tribe of Nevada 
and California, as they are known today. Tahoe is also the 
second deepest lake in the United States and one of the 
clearest large lakes in the world. Tahoe's nearly 200-square-
mile surface straddles the border of California and Nevada at 
more than 6,200 feet in elevation in the Sierra Nevada Mountain 
range.
    Tahoe welcomes millions of visitors every year to our 
public lands. Outdoor recreation and tourism drive our $5 
billion annual economy. This, in turn, supports our very small 
year-round population of 55,000 people. Tahoe also boasts a 
sizable community of second-home owners, who hail from nearly 
every state in the nation. Today, nearly 80 percent of the 
Tahoe Basin is owned and managed by the United States Forest 
Service, but it has not always been like this. The first public 
lands in the Lake Tahoe Basin were established in 1899, as the 
Lake Tahoe Forest Reserve, and totaled 37,000 acres with no 
access to Lake Tahoe's beaches. By 1960, just 50 percent of the 
Tahoe Basin was publicly owned. The 1980 Santini-Burton Act was 
essential to Lake Tahoe's conservation and public lands success 
story.
    Under the law, funds from the authorized sales of federal 
lands in Clark County, Nevada were appropriated to the Forest 
Service to acquire more than 16,000 acres of land in the Tahoe 
Basin. Through conservation and ongoing management, these 
public lands protect Lake Tahoe's famed clarity, are critical 
in community forest health and wildfire prevention, and offer 
world-class recreation opportunities. However, changes to the 
law decades ago inadvertently limited the law's scope so funds 
could only be used to acquire lands, but not to manage them. 
The lack of management funding contributes to negative 
environmental, community, and economic impacts across the 
region. If enacted, modernization would free up existing 
funding for ongoing land management, allowing the Tahoe Basin 
to complete more lake-saving environmental improvement 
projects--projects that protect Tahoe's famed clarity, improve 
recreation access, manage forests, and reduce wildfire risk. 
The modernized bill enables the Washoe Tribe of Nevada and 
California to make a meaningful step toward advancing 
traditional knowledge for forest health management and 
restoring tribal stewardship on their lands.
    Finally, the bill maintains the 1980 federal land sale 
boundaries in Clark County, and adds no new cost to taxpayers. 
The Santini-Burton Modernization Act is the product of a multi-
year collaboration by our agency, Tahoe's state and local 
governments, the public, the Washoe Tribe of Nevada and 
California, non-profits, and the private sector. The bill also 
requires ongoing local input through an annual spending plan 
and partnerships with state and local jurisdictions.
    In 1980, Congress had a bold vision--transforming Tahoe 
into the national treasure that it is today. Thanks to Santini-
Burton, Tahoe's unique character continues to be of national 
significance. But the threats to the lake require new 
solutions, solutions that the Santini-Burton Modernization Act 
can help deliver. I appreciate the consideration of this 
Committee today. Hopefully, you all have the opportunity to 
visit Tahoe soon. Samuel Clemens, the American author better 
known as Mark Twain, is a local legend in Nevada and the Tahoe 
Basin. He described the power of spending time at Lake Tahoe 
when he wrote, ``three months of camp life on Lake Tahoe would 
restore an Egyptian mummy to his pristine vigor and give him an 
appetite like an alligator.'' Quite a description.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Regan follows:]
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    Ms. Regan. I appreciate the opportunity to now answer your 
direct question, and the main difference that I would like to 
point out, as a summary of my testimony, Senator Cortez Masto 
and members of the Committee, is that the challenges are very 
different today in 2026 than they were in 1980. I will use a 
prop to demonstrate the power of the iPhone, which did not 
exist in 1980, and now with Instagram and social media, people 
descend in certain places all at one time, too many places and 
too many impacts to our natural resources. We are actually 
having resources degraded on our public lands, and the funds 
that were used to acquire those lands cannot be used to 
maintain those lands and to take care of those natural 
resources. So, that is a main difference.
    Another issue is our wildfire protection and the ability to 
actively manage lands that were purchased under the sale of 
Santini-Burton funds for defensible space and fire safety.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
    Let me just ask you one final question here. Discuss the 
difference between the funding that the Lake Tahoe Restoration 
Act provides versus what the Santini-Burton Modernization Act 
provides.
    Ms. Regan. Thank you, Senator, for the question. Julie 
Regan, TRPA's Executive Director, Tahoe Regional Planning 
Agency. The Lake Tahoe Restoration Act, which you championed 
along with our colleagues across the delegations in California 
and Nevada, has been vital to the protection of lake clarity, 
our forest health, fighting aquatic invasive species, and these 
programs are very large capital investment programs and 
projects. The Santini-Burton Modernization Act would allow 
maintenance to support those investments, making good on those 
investments, and it is a different suite of impacts that we are 
seeing. The Restoration Act will not address the recreational 
impacts. The Santini-Burton Modernization Act funds would 
support maintenance and protection of our recreation assets to 
allow more public access in the future.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    Senator Murkowski.
    Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I 
appreciate you and the Ranking Member for holding the hearing, 
and including S. 2554, which is the Alaska Native Landless 
Equity Act, on the agenda. This is legislation that has been 
co-sponsored by the entire Alaska delegation. Congressman 
Begich has introduced a companion in the House.
    This is legislation that we dub our ``landless 
legislation,'' and we are seeking to resolve an injustice that 
has been around for about a half a century now in Southeast 
Alaska. For reasons that are perhaps unknown and still debated, 
there are five communities--the communities of Haines, 
Ketchikan, Petersburg, Tenakee, and Wrangell--that were omitted 
from ANCSA's authorizations to form village corporations back 
in 1971. And as a result, the Alaska Natives in these 
communities have not received the lands that they were entitled 
to under ANCSA that other Alaska Natives received a long time 
ago. And that has left a situation that has just been unfair--
wrong, in my view, and something that needs to be addressed. 
And it's our responsibility in this Committee to attempt to do 
that. That is what this bill does.
    It allows formation of five urban corporations. It 
specifies the exact parcels of land that they have selected to 
fulfill the land entitlement. And importantly, it does so while 
fully protecting public access, valid existing rights, 
including for fishing, hunting, recreation, subsistence. It's 
about 115,000 acres of land for the landless communities. Now, 
some of you may say that seems like a lot, but in Alaska, or 
the Southeast region, or even the federal holdings in 
Southeast, which total about 21.9 million acres, what we are 
talking about here for this landless group is about one half of 
one percent going to rightful native ownership while about 190 
times more stays under federal control.
    We have worked really hard over the years to bring this 
legislation to a place where people who are looking at it can 
say this is fair and this is something that I can support. We 
refined it. We worked it over and over again. This Committee 
has seen this issue before us multiple times. We have held 
Committee hearings on it over and over--in 2015, 2023, today. 
So, this is a little bit of a rerun here. But the changes that 
we have incorporated have been based on what we have heard from 
many, identifying the challenges, turning them around and 
really turning opponents into supporters--among them, believe 
it or not, the Nature Conservancy.
    They wrote us a letter back in 2023, which we reported to 
the bill with its passage. And as part of that letter, they 
say, ``Too often, advocacy in the United States has 
intentionally sought to undermine the rights of indigenous 
peoples in the name of conservation. This has caused tremendous 
harm to Alaska Native peoples and their traditional homelands, 
and the legacy of this power dynamic continues to this day. 
With this history in mind, TNC publicly affirms our support for 
resolution for the landless communities in Southeast Alaska. In 
assessing this legislation, we hope the voices that are most 
important to this Committee are not those of conservation 
groups, but rather, those of the sovereign nations in Southeast 
Alaska for whom this has been a generation-long injustice.'' 
That is from the Nature Conservancy.
    The Wilderness Society also wrote us a letter apologizing 
to the landless people for the hurt caused by their past 
opposition and declaring their support for the bill. So, we 
have come a long way, colleagues.
    I am going to ask unanimous consent to add those letters 
from the Nature Conservancy and the Wilderness Society to the 
hearing record.
    Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
    [The letters referred to follow:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Murkowski. But I would ask colleagues, take a look 
at them. See the legislation through the eyes of some of these 
conservation groups that have really been following this issue 
for a long time. I think we have worked to strike the proper 
balance and we are doing right by a special place, by the 
Tongass. We know that every acre in the Tongass is important to 
somebody, and particularly to those who have lived there since 
time immemorial.
    I want to ask one quick question to you, Mr. French. You 
know this issue very, very well. You have been around it a long 
time. In your testimony, you acknowledge the special 
relationship. You acknowledge the role that the Tongass plays 
in the economic health and prosperity of the region's 
community, and you point out that you are looking forward to 
discussing with the Subcommittee and the sponsor the 
implications of the bill, particularly to the timber program on 
the Tongass. I guess the direct question is, does the U.S. 
Forest Service, does USDA support our landless legislation?
    Mr. French. Thank you, Senator, for the question. And you 
are right, we have spent years working through the details.
    Senator Murkowski. Yes.
    Mr. French. On the individual parcels, and we completely 
understand the need and the whole delegation's approach on 
this, and we are very appreciative. We don't oppose the bill. 
We want to make sure that everybody does understand there are 
parts of this that will impact some planned timber sales. And 
as long as everybody knows that, we look forward to working 
with you as it goes forward.
    Senator Murkowski. Well, again, I would just remind that 
the parcels that have been identified have gone through a very 
laborious, thorough, open process in terms of identification. 
So, I would like to think that we can work with the Forest 
Service to deconflict in these areas. So, you have committed to 
working with us, and I appreciate that. BLM has also committed 
to working with us on some technical modifications. We think 
that we are in pretty good shape because you have been working 
with us, again, whether it's technical modifications or with 
regard to actual selection. So, my goal is to finally bring 
this home, that after decades of a longstanding injustice, that 
the people in these communities are finally able to have the 
equity that they deserve. And I would like to think that our 
agencies are going to be partners with us in achieving just 
that, along with this Committee.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Senator Cortez Masto [presiding]. Thank you.
    Senator Heinrich.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Ranking Member.
    Mr. French, we have seen a pretty substantial cut in the 
workforce in New Mexico in the Forest Service. We have seen 
that on the Santa Fe. We have seen it on the Carson National 
Forest, the Cibola, the Lincoln, the Gila. It has been felt 
across the system, from issues like trail maintenance, to 
processing permits for outfitter guides, to wildfire 
preparedness. The bills that we are talking about today direct 
your agency to do a number of things--to take actions and 
undertake new endeavors and new policies, all of which require 
an adequate workforce. How many National Forest System staff 
would actually be needed to fulfill your mission, all of the 
things that the Congress has tasked the National Forest System 
to do and to properly manage the roughly 193 million acres of 
land that the U.S. Forest Service manages?
    Mr. French. That's a big question.
    Senator Heinrich. And I bet the Forest Service has looked 
at this.
    Mr. French. We have.
    Senator Heinrich. I bet there's an answer.
    Mr. French. So, I mean, the reality is, if you look at the 
requirements of statutes of what we are told and asked to 
accomplish, the needs for funding and staffing far exceed the 
requirements that are placed on us to manage those to standard, 
and we manage the largest trail system in the country, 165,000 
miles of trails. And yet, the staffing that we have, and the 
budgets that we have, we struggle to maintain up to a third of 
it a year. Now, I mean, we are working to overcome the things 
you just talked about. Today, we are announcing 2,000 summer 
hires, recreation hires to assist us in overcoming that work. 
We have been in a place of getting our workforce to a more 
sustainable level to the budgets we have, but we have done that 
work. We can certainly share it with you. I am not prepared, 
today, to give you----
    Senator Heinrich. I would appreciate it if you can share 
that work with us.
    Do we pay our firefighters enough?
    Mr. French. In my opinion?
    Senator Heinrich. Yes, in your opinion.
    Mr. French. No. I think that--I want to be thoughtful here, 
because I don't have with me a particular position from the 
administration, but as a past firefighter, myself----
    Senator Heinrich. Yes.
    Mr. French. When I look at what we ask them to do, and 
watching over the last 20 years, our fire seasons becoming 
larger and larger, putting more and more demands on them and 
their families, and when I look at what is being compensated at 
state levels, I think there is work to do there.
    Senator Heinrich. Mr. Raby, same question. The BLM manages 
246 million acres. How many folks would we need to adequately 
manage that?
    Mr. Raby. Senator, thank you for the question. And of 
course, in the Bureau of Land Management, we have an 
organization of about 9,000 employees to manage 245 million 
acres. We receive about $5.75 per acre to manage these lands, 
which, we have always been a lean organization. We have been 
very focused, again, on our mission delivery, and at the same 
time, ensuring that we have organizational efficiency and 
workforce optimization. So, we have these, you know, again, we 
have always had these sort of competing objectives at times, 
but they are complementary objectives as well. And so, while, 
again, we may not have always received what we may have 
desired, we can't look on ourselves and say we are going to be 
woeful about what we don't have. We are very focused on what we 
do have, and then we set our priorities accordingly, and of 
course, we are fully staffed in our wildland fire organization, 
as well as law enforcement, and energy and minerals. And then, 
we certainly rely on a lot of partners to help us, between 
state and local organizations as well.
    Senator Heinrich. The parcels that were identified for 
withdrawal in the Buffalo Tract Protection Act make up roughly 
a little over 4,000 acres. One of my concerns is that they are 
kind of scattered through residential neighborhoods. So, the 
impacts of a gravel mine amongst a residential community would 
be felt pretty acutely, and residents are rightly worried about 
health impacts, noise, particulate pollution, as well as 
disruption to wildlife in the area. I mean, that's kind of the 
reason why there is, to my knowledge, no real opposition to 
this legislation. There is literally a gravel mine just down 
the road that is very successful and people are okay with 
because it's not in the middle of a residential community. Do 
you think that a suburban neighborhood is the appropriate place 
for a gravel mine?
    Mr. Raby. Senator, thank you again for the question. And 
when we look at the proposal for mineral withdrawals, that can 
preclude opportunities and options for, again, what we believe 
is responsible development that can take into account local 
considerations.
    Senator Heinrich. I'm sorry, Mr. Raby. How is it 
responsible to put a very noisy, very particulate-heavy 
industrial activity in the middle of a suburban neighborhood? I 
don't understand the responsible part of that statement.
    Mr. Raby. We go through a lengthy process between the 
environmental reviews.
    Senator Heinrich. I know the process. Because I heard about 
it from all of the community members in that area. I don't know 
of anyone who supports this. Your position--the BLM position--
has literally no community support. Do you listen to the 
community before you make a decision like that?
    Mr. Raby. Well, Senator, of course we listen to the 
community. We have our local line officers, our district 
managers, field managers who absolutely are engaged with the 
community, and they have to also account for the national 
policy direction when we have a declared national energy 
emergency, which, by reference, includes a mineral emergency. 
We have to----
    Senator Heinrich. How does producing gravel solve the 
national energy emergency?
    Mr. Raby. Yeah, it's a mineral resource that, again, 
provides----
    Senator Heinrich. Right.
    Mr. Raby. Opportunity for development and----
    Senator Heinrich. Which we produce five miles away in 
abundance.
    Mr. Raby. Your point is well taken. I understand.
    Senator Heinrich. My point is that your policy in this case 
is completely disconnected from the local community, and while 
we have very wide opinions on this Committee, where we get 
crosswise is when there is a federal policy dictated from 
Washington, DC that is completely disconnected. And this is 
where Senator Murkowski and I actually agree. It's where 
Senator Daines and I actually agree. When we get in trouble is 
when we don't listen to the local community, and in this case, 
it is my view that the administration and the BLM are 
completely ignoring the local community.
    And so, Ranking Member Cortez Masto, I want to enter into 
the record, if there is no objection, all of the community 
groups, from local tribes, to the county, to the local 
municipality, to the neighborhood association that this would 
impact, their views on the Buffalo Tract Protection Act.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Without objection.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
    [Letters and statements of support for the Buffalo Tract 
Protection Act follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Anything else? Any additional 
questions?
    Senator Cortez Masto. I do, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Please.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you for the opportunity here.
    Mr. French, let me talk to you, something similar, on the 
same vein that you are hearing, I think, from some of my 
colleagues. I want to talk about S. 1349, which is the Ruby 
Mountains Protection Act. In December, Senator Heinrich had 
asked you at a hearing here about the agency's decision to 
rescind a land withdrawal for the Pecos Watershed in New 
Mexico. And at that time, you replied the administration's 
policy is to preserve the spaces we have right now for future 
development until such time that we understand what our current 
mineral development is across the agency. I respect that.
    The agency, however, Mr. French, also rescinded then an 
administrative withdrawal for the Ruby Mountains in northern 
Nevada. And I know you are familiar with this because we have 
talked about this. However, the agency already understands the 
current mineral development potential in the Rubies, because in 
2019, under the first Trump administration, the Forest Service 
released a decision saying that ``with the overall unfavorable, 
non-conducive oil and gas geologic conditions and the `No to 
Very Low' and `Low' potential for oil and gas, these lands have 
low energy resource values. Offering low energy resource value 
lands . . . would not serve the best interest of the public 
from an industrial or environmental perspective.''
    So, this bill that we are introducing is merely a 
codification of the Trump administration's findings in 2019. 
So, I guess my question to you is, why are we still here with 
the withdrawal? Why are we still fighting this? And why are you 
still opposed to moving forward?
    Mr. French. Senator, I understand exactly why you are 
asking the question. That was the decision in 2019. That 
decision remains, and will continue to protect in that local 
way the further development of oil and gas. You know, what we 
are talking about here is, where a national policy approach, 
which, again, from the administration, is about making sure 
that we maintain the flexibility for future mineral 
development, aligned with policies that doing something through 
an administrative or legislative withdrawal doesn't take into 
account the local needs. And I think that was part of the 
conversation that was just happening to understand that.
    In this case, you are seeing a position in a statement 
that, in general, does not support any sort of withdrawals, but 
it doesn't change the fact of that 2019 decision that we made 
that made that finding that essentially limits oil and gas 
development in the Ruby Mountains.
    Senator Cortez Masto. So, then let me jump to you, Mr. 
Raby. On January 14, 2025, the BLM initiated a two-year 
segregation to consider a 20-year administrative public land 
withdrawal for the Ash Meadows National Wildlife Refuge and 
surrounding BLM lands that have been threatened by mining 
proposals to drill into the sensitive groundwater system, which 
could dry up seeps and springs that are the core of this 
refuge. You as well know the Devils Hole unit of Death Valley 
National Park and the lifeblood of the surrounding area. Local 
community leaders are in unanimous consent in their desire to 
see this withdrawal. A meeting took place on February 27, 2025 
to receive public comment, but it is unclear if anything has 
taken place.
    So, Director Raby, I am disappointed, obviously in the Ruby 
Mountains withdrawal decision. I don't quite understand it, 
still, but I am glad the segregation for Ash Meadows has 
remained in effect, under the same administration. I'm a little 
curious about why there is a difference between the two, just 
pointing that out, but can you give me the status of the 
withdrawal?
    Mr. Raby. Senator, thank you for the question, and the 
status is that the parcel segregation is still in place, as in 
about, you know, 14 months of the two-year parcel segregation, 
we continue to work on, you know, with our partners with the 
Fish and Wildlife Service, the evaluation of that area. We no 
longer have the same mining proposal out there currently. And 
so, that, you know, does not exist out there, that application. 
And so, we will take that under consideration as to whether a 
mineral withdrawal would even be appropriate to advise on in 
the future.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Do you think you are going to need 
more time for any analysis, and if so, would you let us know 
and seek an extension of it?
    Mr. Raby. We will certainly let you know.
    Senator Cortez Masto. Okay, thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Well, I think Senator Daines is on the 
way down to ask a couple of questions related to his bill, but 
any other thoughts that any of you have based on the hearing 
and what you have heard from one another today about ways we 
can be helpful?
    Mr. Checketts. Everyone is looking at me, but I----
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Checketts. I better say something.
    Senator Barrasso. We are having this hearing--in my 
opinion, this is the key bill to the Committee, so.
    Mr. Checketts. Well, Senator Barrasso, I will tell you 
what, grazing is so important. And grazing really protects our 
nation, protects our food supply. We have seen a lot of things 
in the news lately about beef prices, and even with beef prices 
the way it is today, guys, it's still tough to make it as a 
rancher. The beef prices, similar to what it was in 1980, when 
you add in inflation, when you add in all the different costs 
of operating, so to tie it back to our bill, our bill is so 
important to protect our ranching, to protect our families, the 
people that work every day to feed this nation, to clothe this 
nation, to give us the different supplies. And I am grateful 
for our Forest Service and BLM partners, and I affectionately 
say that we own the grass, you guys own the land, and I am 
grateful for them. Without the Forest Service and BLM, we 
couldn't make it work.
    What a nice nation this is to have the opportunity to work 
together with our federal lands to make it possible to feed our 
nation, and to allow me, as a rancher, to do what I love, what 
I am passionate about--to ranch, provide for my family, provide 
for my cattle. And I promise you that we take care of the land. 
We love the land more than anyone, and we appreciate that 
opportunity and our partners here in this room to allow us to 
do it. It is the honor of our lives. And we will take care of 
it.
    Thank you.
    Senator Barrasso. Well, you mentioned earlier, the best 
stewards of the land are the people that live on the land, the 
people that are there locally that want to make sure we are 
protecting it. We talk about the environment, the respect for 
the environment of the people that are on that land.
    Mr. Checketts. Yeah, we love it. And you know, we talked--I 
heard these guys talking about fire. We are grateful, also, for 
our partnership when we fight fires with the Forest Service and 
BLM, but I just want to add something here, and the important 
thing is cooperation and collaboration. I serve on two 
different rural fire communities, and when they are anxious to 
go fight fires, we are there first, and our Forest Service and 
BLM partners come and it works so good when we work together. 
And my encouragement to save money would be to have more local 
leadership with our BLM and Forest Service partners when we 
fight these fires. They have these command centers, and it's 
important that they involve the local people there.
    Senator Barrasso. Great. Well, thanks so very much to all 
of you. We are going to turn to Senator Daines for questions, 
but maybe other members may have additional questions, and they 
will be sent to you. There is going to be a deadline for us to 
submit those questions, and that is close of business tomorrow, 
but we would ask that you get the answers back to us by a week 
from the end of this hearing today.
    Senator Daines.
    Senator Daines. Great. Chairman Barrasso, thank you.
    Mr. Raby, when FLPMA was enacted, the BLM was directed to 
identify lands with wilderness characteristics. Congress has 
the opportunity to consider adding these lands to the National 
Wilderness Preservation System. Today, the BLM manages 487 
wilderness study areas, totaling about 11.1 million acres. 
Thirty-seven of those 487 are in Montana. Until Congress 
decides what to do with the WSAs, the BLM continues to manage 
the area with the status in limbo indefinitely--that study 
status. My question is, Mr. Raby, what are the long-term 
consequences for recreation, forest management, and even 
wildfire response of wilderness study areas not getting 
resolved?
    Mr. Raby. Senator Daines, thank you very much for the 
question, and certainly having that wilderness study 
designation complicates multiple-use management. And so, it 
inherently limits our ability to carry out hazardous fuels 
reduction treatments. It can affect forest management 
activities. It can create limitations on recreation and access. 
So, it creates a layer of complicating, you know, management 
direction on areas that, as you noted previously, especially 
these ones in Montana that are before us in your proposed 
legislation, those were never found to be of suitable 
wilderness characteristics, and that has been since 1986.
    And so, they do complicate multiple-use management out 
there, and certainly their release would help uncomplicate 
that.
    Senator Daines. This isn't meant to be a Trivial Pursuit 
question, but do you remember who the President was in 1986?
    Mr. Raby. Well, I believe that was Ronald Reagan.
    Senator Daines. It was Ronald Reagan.
    Mr. Raby. Yes.
    Senator Daines. So it goes back to the Reagan presidency in 
terms of how long this has been in limbo and needs to be 
resolved. And we are talking about, in this bill I have, 
100,000 acres of 11 million acres that are currently in limbo 
under the wilderness study area designations. Do you agree that 
Congress does need to move forward to finally resolve these 11 
million acres currently in limbo to either put them in 
permanent wilderness or back to general management?
    Mr. Raby. Senator, the short answer is yes.
    Senator Daines. Thank you.
    Deputy Chief French, the Forest Service determined the 
Middle Fork Judith Wilderness Study Area was identified as 
unsuitable for wilderness over 30 years ago, and that was 
reaffirmed again in the fall of 2021 after extensive public 
engagement. Could you briefly talk about what led to this 
determination and what public input there was in that process?
    Mr. French. Yeah, our forest planning process that looked 
at this a second time, the engagement occurred over the course 
of six years--many, many public meetings. I think there were 
over 100 organizations that commented. We had about 1,200 
individual comment letters that came in. And again, for the 
second time, it was found that it didn't have the 
characteristics to remain as wilderness. And so, we did our 
part of what Congress asked us to do, but it sits there still 
kind of in this limbo after we did the assessment, and it 
mandates a management that isn't aligned with what the 
community told us it should be.
    Senator Daines. And I think that that's important 
testimony, and I thank you that there was a public process with 
a lot of public input. And again, with these WSAs, when they 
are deemed suitable for wilderness, we should be looking at 
taking the next step to make them wilderness, but when they are 
deemed not suitable for wilderness, we should return them back 
to the general management status, which, as I mentioned earlier 
in my opening remarks, still has multiple protections as it 
relates to the general management status. It's just that they 
won't be managed as de facto wilderness as they are today.
    The Forest Service also manages three active grazing 
allotments that cover the majority of the WSA. I've got a 
poster board here behind me.
    [The poster referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Daines. In 2019, the Forest Service reported to the 
Montana legislature that there is no mining and the vegetative 
management is minimal, though the Forest Service has 
recommended, and I quote, ``nearly one million board-feet of 
harvest per year for fuels management and to help maintain 
early successional habitat for health.'' My question is, could 
you confirm for this Committee that this continues to be the 
recommendation and that releasing the Middle Fork Judith back 
to general management will benefit hazardous fuels reduction 
and wildlife habitat?
    Mr. French. From my conversations back with the Forest 
Supervisor when they were doing this plan, generally, I would 
say yes. I haven't heard anything that would change that. You 
know, we are seeing a need to get in and actively manage these 
areas that have had fire excluded for as long as they have and 
have had no active management. I have not seen any change from 
that, so, yes, generally, I would agree.
    Senator Daines. As we say out West in these dry semi-arid 
climates, that either we are going to get in and proactively 
manage the forest or the forest starts to manage us, certainly 
through these catastrophic wildfires that we see as fire season 
is lengthened and temperatures have increased.
    How does the current designation affect the grazing 
allotments, and what happens if the WSA is returned to general 
management?
    Mr. French. Well, I mean, I think the thing to remember 
here is that it is being managed as wilderness right now, and 
what that does for us is, it changes the way we can access 
things, the way that we can do improvements for our permittees 
that have range allotments in those places. It limits our 
ability for flexibility for increasing some of those allotments 
because wilderness requires you only to allow what was 
historically there when it was designated. And then, it just 
limits our ability for active management of those areas, even 
in some places, folks not wanting to see prescribed fire, 
although we can do it.
    So, all of that is limited by the designation, of which, 
again, at the request of Congress to see if it was even 
suitable for that designation, through a large public process, 
we determined no, twice.
    Senator Daines. Mr. French, thank you.
    Mr. French. You're welcome.
    Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so very much to all of you. 
I appreciate all of your input and your testimony. It was very 
helpful for all of the members. We are looking forward to 
moving these bills forward. So, we appreciate your time.
    This hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:19 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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