    [Senate Hearing 119-271]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 119-271

                             ANOTHER BIDEN BLUNDER:
                      MISSING UNACCOMPANIED ALIEN CHILDREN
                             AND CRIMINAL SPONSORS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON BORDER SECURITY
                                AND IMMIGRATION

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               SEPTEMBER 17, 2025

                                   __________

                              Serial No. J-119-40

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                            www.judiciary.senate.gov
                                www.govinfo.gov
                                       _______

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    62-654                    WASHINGTON : 2026

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                      CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman
    LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois,
    JOHN CORNYN, Texas                       Ranking Member
    MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
    TED CRUZ, Texas                      AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
    THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
    JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
    ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri               ALEX PADILLA, California
    KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            PETER WELCH, Vermont
    ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ADAM B. SCHIFF, California

                 Kolan Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
             Joe Zogby, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director

                Subcommittee on Border Security and Immigration

                           JOHN CORNYN, Texas, Chair
    LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    ALEX PADILLA, California,
    TED CRUZ, Texas                          Ranking Member
    THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
    JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
    KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
    ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
                                         CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey

                 Franci Rooney Becker, Republican Chief Counsel
                     Ursela Ojeda, Democratic Chief Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page

    Cornyn, Hon. John................................................     1
    Durbin, Hon. Richard J...........................................     7
    Padilla, Hon. Alex...............................................     5

                                   WITNESSES

    Clem, Chris......................................................     9
        Prepared statement...........................................    34
        Responses to written questions...............................    55
    Giovagnoli, Mary E...............................................    13
        Prepared statement...........................................    38
        Responses to written questions...............................    57
    Hopper, Ali......................................................    15
        Prepared statement...........................................    49
        Responses to written questions...............................    62

                                    APPENDIX

    Items submitted for the record...................................    69

                             ANOTHER BIDEN BLUNDER:
                          MISSING UNACCOMPANIED ALIEN
                         CHILDREN AND CRIMINAL SPONSORS

                                  ----------

                         WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2025

                          United States Senate,
       Subcommittee on Border Security and Immigration,
                                    Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice at 2 p.m., in Room
    226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Cornyn, Chair of
    the Subcommittee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Cornyn [presiding], Britt, Moody,
    Padilla, Klobuchar, Hirono and Booker.
        Also present: Senator Durbin.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN CORNYN,
                 A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS

        Chair Cornyn. I call to order this hearing of the Senate
    Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Border Security and
    Immigration. Senator Padilla and I are, of course, Chair and
    Ranking Member, and we are actually anticipating the presence
    of Senator Grassley, the Chairman of the full Committee, and
    Senator Durbin, perhaps as well.
        So, when they come, we'll be happy to accommodate them and
    listen to their statement. The purpose of today's hearing is to
    determine what the consequences have been of the failure that
    occurred on President Biden's watch, the tragic and
    irresponsible treatment of hundreds of thousands of migrant
    children.
        President Biden literally lost track of more than 320,000
    unaccompanied children, sometimes called UACs, unaccompanied
    children, who are somewhere we hope still in the United States.
    Some of them may no longer be living, we don't know and they
    don't know what happened to them, and obviously they do not
    appear to have care.
        The Biden Administration released many of these children
    into the custody of unvetted, even criminal sponsors. Now,
    while it may seem repetitive to have yet another hearing on the
    issue, the fact of the matter is that our work here is not yet
    done. As a result of the open border policies of the Biden
    Administration, letting in roughly 11,000,000 illegal aliens
    and more than 500,000 unaccompanied children, many of these
    children of course, had to travel from dangerous cartel control
    routes through South America. And many suffered horrific harm
    and now they're saddled with a lifetime of trauma that could
    have been avoided if they hadn't been enticed to leave their
    home country.
        Parents and other relatives played a role in the sad saga
    by making the credible decision to place their child into the
    hands of a criminal organization, potentially putting them in
    harm's way in the first place. They were often the ones to
    initiate the process, paying smugglers thousands of dollars to
    bring their children into the United States illegally.
        And you have to ask yourself, why in the world would they
    do something like that? Well, because they realize that under
    the Biden policies these children were likely to be deposited
    here in the United States in place with a sponsor and be able
    to stay in the United States. Some of these children thought
    they were going to be united with a relative or parent, but
    they ended up being trafficked or forced to work to pay for
    their smuggling debts.
        And let's not forget the other side of the problem. Among
    the 500,000 unaccompanied minor children that President Biden
    led into the country, some were members of the Tren de Aragua
    and MS-13 gangs. Many of these so-called children were 17-year-
    olds or virtually for all practical purposes, adults. Some of
    them had already committed crimes in their home country and
    continued their criminal conduct here in the United States.
        And of course, no one can forget the many victims of crimes
    committed by juvenile illegal aliens, crimes like the death of
    Kayla Hamilton, who was raped and murdered or Maria Gonzalez,
    who was raped and strangled to death. As horrific as these
    stories are, they are nothing new. I can cite volumes of news
    reports and articles detailing such horrors, as I'm sure
    Chairman Grassley, who's been following this issue for years
    now, can as well, since he's spearheaded many of the
    investigations into the problems with the unaccompanied minor
    program for years.
        But what is truly shocking is the level of irresponsibility
    and the callousness of the Biden Administration and ultimately
    allowing these children to be released to sponsors who weren't
    their relatives based on fake addresses and fraudulent
    documentation. The Biden Administration prioritized the release
    of thousands of migrant children without doing background
    checks or waiting to receive the results of background checks,
    or without conducting mandatory home studies, even when staff
    raised concern indicating that such studies were warranted.
    When the Trump Administration came in, new leadership at HHS
    discovered a backlog of more than 65,000 case reports, which
    the Biden Office of Refugee Resettlement known as ORR, either
    dismissed or simply chose to do nothing about.
        I must commend the men and women of the Trump
    Administration for the work they've done to try to right these
    wrongs in this far as our treatment of these migrant children.
    Under AG Bondi, Secretary Noem, and Secretary Kennedy's
    leadership, we've witnessed progress in the last 8 months,
    although much remains to be done. Working with State and local
    law enforcement authorities, the Trump Administration is
    located more than 22,000 missing illegal migrant children and
    arrested more than 400 criminal sponsors.
        As of March, HHSORR, has now made DNA testing mandatory for
    all sponsors. It really is, again, I just, my threshold for
    being shocked has gotten so high because of the outrageous
    conduct that we're talking about here. But for many years, the
    Biden Administration resisted doing DNA testing to make sure
    that these children were actually biologically related to the
    people who claim them as their children, which in many cases
    they were not.
        HHS has created additional factors that caseworkers need to
    consider when assessing whether a home study is mandatory,
    that's a followup after the child is placed or should be
    conducted for the protection of the child. Finally, HHS has
    reviewed all of the 65,000 case reports that were left behind
    by the Biden Administration and elevated cases that are
    indicative of fraud and other significant activity to law
    enforcement for further review investigation.
        These measures will protect young children from further
    harm or trafficking based on false claimed family relationships
    and other harms. But unfortunately, for many of these children,
    help has come too late. DHS reported that 27 migrant children
    were found dead either by murder, suicide, or drug overdose.
    And that's just the ones they found. All these reports of harm
    to these young people are shocking, and the blame for the
    failures in the unaccompanied minor process during the fiscal
    year 2021-2024 lays squarely at President Biden's feet.
        But I want to take a moment to refocus Members' attention
    on what I believe is really the issue here. You'll hear plenty
    of stories today of about enforcement actions of the Trump
    Administration and its impact on migrant communities but no one
    seems to want to discuss why we continue to incentivize parents
    and other relatives to pay criminal organizations large sums of
    money to smuggle their children into the United States.
        We have laws in the books now that encourage children to
    make that treacherous journey through South America to enter
    the country illegally. The problem, it seems to me, is one of
    the Government's own making, and it's not a problem that began
    with President Trump or President Biden, but dates back to 1985
    with a legal decision called the Flores case.
        The Flores case was a lawsuit between a liberal advocacy
    group and the former Immigration Naturalization Service, or
    INS. INS chose to exercise its discretion to allow deportable
    children to be released from government custody under very
    specific circumstances. First, INS would only release the child
    to his or her parents or legal guardian.
        Second, INS would only release the child if the parent or
    legal guardian appeared in person at an INS office or before an
    INS officer. Unfortunately, the liberal advocates who were
    concerned that this process might result in some parents who
    were illegally present in the United States from being detained
    and deported as part of this process.
        So rather than risk the deportation of people who illegally
    entered into the United States, they basically sacrificed the
    welfare of these unaccompanied minor children. It really is
    shameful and their efforts to ensure that no alien is deported
    under any conditions at any time.
        These advocates press for INS to change its policies to
    ensure the Government released deportable children from
    detention as quickly as possible. That became the goal of the
    Government, release these children as soon as possible. The
    tragic result of the Flores settlement is that it created an
    incentive for unaccompanied children to continue to come to the
    United States because it virtually guaranteed the expedited
    release of that child into the interior of our country.
        And tragically, the speed at which the Biden Administration
    released these children seemed to take precedence over ensuring
    that they were safe, and that their sponsors were properly
    vetted. Additionally, the passage of the Trafficking Victims
    Protection Reauthorization Act created a similar perverse
    incentive. This law created a process for the Government to
    send unaccompanied children from Mexico or Canada back to their
    home countries after screening them for trafficking or credible
    fear.
        But there was a loophole, unaccompanied children from any
    other country other than Canada and Mexico, who crossed the
    border illegally got to stay in the United States and placed in
    proceedings and ultimately released from custody into the
    custody of sponsors. Once illegal aliens in the United States
    and cartels and gangs in South America learned of this legal
    loophole, border crossings by unaccompanied minors surged, in
    FY 2021-2023, hundreds of thousands of these unaccompanied
    children made their way to the border.
        And I would say that while these children may have
    presented themselves as unaccompanied, they definitely were
    accompanied during that treacherous trip from their home in
    South America or Mexico, because they were given to the custody
    of coyotes or human smugglers who cared nothing for the welfare
    of these children and then released at the border into the
    custody of the Border Patrol because these parents knew and the
    smugglers knew that the children would be cared for once they
    made their way to the United States--if they made their way to
    the United States.
        The lesson here is clear, President Obama agreed with
    Republicans back in the day that these incentives could and
    should be fixed legislatively. And I'm talking about the Flores
    case now, but the Democratic base would not hear of it. They
    would prefer to have migrant children endangered than even
    raise the possibility that some illegal immigrants might be
    deported.
        For all of the talk about due process during the Trump
    Administration, this issue highlights the way that our
    Democratic colleagues have pushed to skirt the formal process
    for releasing unaccompanied minors in order to minimize the
    chances of any person who's come to the country illegally being
    deported. And there is a heavy, heavy price to pay. And I would
    submit, we won't know what the full price ultimately is for
    years, maybe decades, yet to come.
        As these children, of a variety of different ages, grow up
    under perhaps horrific circumstances. We don't know whether
    they are going to school. We don't know whether they're being
    given access to healthcare. We don't know whether they're being
    trafficked or held for forced servitude. So, I'm hopeful after
    after this hearing and perhaps after some deliberation, we can
    find a way to put aside partisan politics and to have the moral
    conviction to take one step toward addressing the root of this
    problem.
        If we really care about protecting children, we would
    never, ever tolerate putting them in harm's way in the first
    place. Ranking Member.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ALEX PADILLA,
              A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon,
    everybody. And I too want to thank everybody for being here.
    And I'm actually very, very glad that we have the opportunity
    to talk today about the welfare of unaccompanied children in
    our immigration system. Mr. Chairman, it's been good to try to
    do as much bipartisan common sense of work together as we've
    had over the last 4\1/2\ years, because we know that when it
    comes to all issues and conversations about immigration, which
    is very complex, it gets very passionate real quick.
        See, too often their stories of unaccompanied children go
    unheard until a horrific story about their mistreatment shocks
    the conscience of our country. And it's not just a matter of
    past tense. It's not just a matter of what happened during the
    Biden Administration or in prior years. One of these stories
    broke out just a few weeks ago on Sunday, August 31, at about 1
    or 2 o'clock in the morning, 76 children in Texas shelters were
    jolted awake in the middle of the night with no warning.
        They were instructed to pack their bags and immigration
    officials led them to an airport to be deported without a
    hearing, without due process and without proper vetting to see
    if they would actually be safe back in Guatemala. These kids,
    as you can imagine, were terrified. And as you can see from the
    declarations filed in court, there's a chart here with some of
    the quotes from those declarations here behind me.
        These children waited for hours on buses and on airplanes,
    wondering what their fate would be. Some feared returning home
    to abusive families, violence or forced marriage. Many prayed.
    One little girl was so scared that she vomited. Without an 11th
    hour intervention by a judge these children could have been
    back in Guatemala fighting many for their lives. That's how
    children are being treated in the system but it gets worse.
        Following a concerning whistleblower disclosure made to the
    Chair of this Subcommittee and myself, we're now learning that
    allegedly at least 30 of the children, who the Government was--
    who the Government had cleared for imminent removal, had been
    previously flagged as having signs of being victims of
    trafficking or abuse and who would face harm if returned to
    Guatemala.
        Yet before these whistleblowers went public, the acting
    director of ORR had sworn under oath in a court of law that
    these children had been screened and were cleared for
    repatriation. These whistleblowers came forward at great
    personal cost. And Mr. Chairman, I ask consent to enter the
    whistleblower disclosure into the record.
        Chair Cornyn. Without objection.
        [Poster displayed.]
        Senator Padilla. Thank you very much. And copies will be
    shared to, with Members of the Subcommittee if you haven't
    received it already. So, knowing all this, now, it's on us to
    do the right thing and bring ORR officials before this
    Committee to demand the truth. Now, Mr. Chairman, we are the
    Committee of Jurisdiction with an obligation to conduct
    oversight over ORR.
        So, I don't just ask you, I urge you, let's work together
    to schedule an oversight hearing with ORR to get to the truth.
    Every single one of us here has a responsibility to stand up
    for the children in our immigration system, whether it's
    because of trafficking, physical or sexual abuse, child labor,
    or violations of their due process. And this is a
    responsibility that I don't take lightly. None of us should
    take lightly, but already, it's occurred to me what is
    happening at this hearing and it's something different.
        It seems to be an effort to make this an ongoing political
    issue, blaming a former President for a current problem. For
    some, it may be about pleasing the Trump Administration or not
    wanting to hold them accountable, because the reality is, if
    the focus is what is the State of affairs of unaccompanied
    children, the conditions in which they're being detained, or
    how they're being treated, or how their due process is or is
    not being fulfilled, then we should be having a holistic
    conversation, not just looking at the past, but looking at the
    present and trying to create the rightful future by our rule of
    law.
        Because the reality is the Trump Administration officials
    should be the ones in the seats in front of us to field our
    questions and to answer our questions about their, in many
    ways, ``Cruel and unlawful policies'' especially after this
    whistleblower disclosure. And for a moment, Mr. Chair, let me
    shed light on two items that you raised in your opening
    statement, the Flores settlement, which you referenced.
        The Flores settlement sets minimum standards of care for
    children who are being detained for months at a time with
    unrelated adults. That's what the Flores settlement is about.
    The Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act is a
    bipartisan law that was signed into law by George H.W. Bush to
    protect children from exploitation and abuse. So, if we truly
    want to improve our immigration system and protect
    unaccompanied children, we'd be exercising our oversight
    authority to ask about the real harm currently happening to
    children because of the indiscriminate mass deportation
    policies that this Administration is carrying out.
        There has to be real oversight of this Administration and
    their dangerous treatment of minors. So don't lecture me about
    kids and then at the same time, grab defenseless children in
    the middle of the night to haul them off to a country when we
    know they will be in danger. Don't lecture me about kids but
    then refuse to call out this Administration when they deprive
    them of representation.
        And don't lecture me about kids and then refuse to speak
    out when we hear parents are being forced to decide whether to
    be deported with their children or let them be sent to ORR
    shelters as we learned just this morning. And don't just take
    my word for it, just read the heartbreaking reporting in this
    morning's Washington Post. And Mr. Chairman, I ask consent to
    enter that article into the record for today's hearing as well.
        Chair Cornyn. Without objection.
        [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
        Senator Padilla. Thank you very much. And not a single
    child benefits from political theater. So today, it's my hope
    that this hearing doesn't devolve into just a competition of
    who can praise Trump the most or who can bash Biden the best.
    Because regardless of which party is in the White House or
    which party is in the majority in Congress, keeping children
    safe should be a bipartisan concern.
        In fact, alongside Senator Durbin, I co-chaired a hearing
    of the Senate Judiciary Committee in June 2023, one of two
    oversight hearings that we had that year alone on protecting
    unaccompanied children and fighting child labor exploitation.
    That's right.
        Everybody in this hearing room and everybody watching at
    home, Democrats demanded accountability from the Biden
    Administration on what happened to children under their watch.
    And I invite our Republican colleagues to join us in demanding
    the same accountability from the Trump Administration about
    what's happening to children under theirs. So, let's speak up
    for the children's whose lives are on the line, no matter who
    is in the White House. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chair Cornyn. I know Senator Grassley has a conflict and is
    unable to make it. So, I'll turn next to the Ranking Member of
    the full Committee. Before I do that, I'd ask unanimous consent
    to make part of the record two stories by The New York Times
    dated April the 17, 2023. And actually, the first one is
    February 25, 2023. These were investigative stories done by the
    New York Times, the title of which is, ``Alone and exploited
    migrant children work brutal jobs across the U.S.''
        And the second installment of that investigative story is
    entitled as, ``Migrant children were put to work, U.S. ignored
    warnings.''
        [Holds up documents].
        [The information appears as submissions for the record.]
        Chair Cornyn. With that I'll turn to the Ranking Member.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,
               A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

        Senator Durbin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I'd
    like to say that I joined with the Chairman of the Subcommittee
    or the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee in saying that what
    happened in the past is important, we should learn from it. But
    what's happening today is what counts. Where are these kids
    today? What decisions are being made today? How are they doing?
    Let me give you one example.
        A few months ago, I joined all my Democratic colleagues on
    this Committee in a letter to Chairman Grassley requesting a
    hearing on the Trump Administration's decision to voluntarily
    drop a lawsuit against Southwest Key, the largest private
    provider of sheltering care for unaccompanied children.
    Southwest Key has been accused of repeatedly subjecting
    children to sexual abuse and harassment between 2015 and 2023,
    which is why the Biden Administration filed a lawsuit against
    them.
        I hope that we can get a response from the Chairman and a
    hearing on that issue, maybe in the Subcommittee about why that
    lawsuit was dropped by the Trump Administration. That is a
    timely response to what's happening to these kids. And I'll
    just close by saying that I've joined with Senator Padilla
    because we have whistleblower allegations that the Trump
    Administration misled the courts to justify deporting
    unaccompanied children at risk of trafficking and abuse.
    Protecting children should be bipartisan, not partisan. When I
    was Chair, we held a hearing holding the Biden officials
    accountable for the unaccompanied children.
        I call on Chairs, Grassley and Cornyn to do the same, have
    the courage to hold this Administration responsible as well.
    Let's get to the bottom of this for the good of these children,
    I yield.
        Chair Cornyn. Just in a brief response, I would say what's
    happening today is important, no doubt about it, but failing to
    examine the reasons for the disaster that we're experiencing
    today by inviting millions of people to come to the country,
    basically un vetted, including a half a million children, and
    then suggesting that, well, really, we need to ignore all that
    and the consequences of that fail to provide the accountability
    that I think the American people deserve.
        And the work is not yet done because many of these children
    are simply unaccounted for. And we don't know, again, what's
    happened to them. We don't know that they're currently alive or
    dead. We don't know whether they are trafficked for sex or into
    forced labor, whether they're going to school, whether they're
    getting healthcare they need. And the position the Biden
    Administration is they don't really have any responsibility or
    they didn't once they placed these children with sponsors, but
    placing them with unvetted sponsors and then saying, ``Our
    job's done, it's not our job anymore. Somebody else has to deal
    with that.'' It is just plainly irresponsible. And the
    consequences of this are, like I said, will not fully be known,
    I think, for years or maybe decades to come.
        So, what I'd like to do is now welcome today's witnesses to
    the hearing and I appreciate each of you being here and
    providing your expertise and testimony on such an important
    topic. The first witness is the former Chief Patrol agent,
    Chris Clem, who's retired from the U.S. Border Patrol. He
    worked for the former Immigration and Naturalization Service in
    the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Customs and Border
    Protection.
        He served with the Government with honor and distinction
    for more than 27\1/2\ years, including the senior executive
    service level from 2018 until his retirement, he's known for,
    as matter of fact, no nonsense approach. Chris Clem served in
    multiple locations throughout his career and in key leadership
    positions across the Southern Border and in Washington D.C.
        Chris Clem has been on the front line through many border
    crises, including El Paso and Yuma, Arizona. He worked with the
    current Administration during the first 100 days as a senior
    advisor to HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. His role
    involved directing operations relating to immigration
    especially as it pertains to HHS and specifically on the issues
    affecting unaccompanied children.
        Ali Hopper is a nationally recognized expert in human
    trafficking and the President of Guard Against Trafficking, a
    nonprofit she co-founded to combat exploitation through
    innovative research, education, and advocacy. Ms. Hopper
    authored Florida's landmark Anti Grooming Bill, she now uses a
    model in multiple States. She's also testified before Congress
    on child trafficking issues and delivered numerous
    congressional Senate briefings on human trafficking.
        Ms. Hopper conducts on the ground research in the United
    States, Mexico, Central and South America, including interviews
    with human traffickers who've been incarcerated in the United
    States and abroad. She's trained Interpol in South America,
    U.S. law enforcement and policymakers across multiple States
    and countries. Ali is a member of the Florida's Circuit 12
    Human Trafficking Task Force, and I'm sure well known to our,
    perhaps our newest Senator from Florida, Senator Moody.
        Our frequent voice and national medium is Hopper continues
    to shape public awareness and drive forward policies to protect
    children and combat trafficking nationwide. Mary Giovagnoli,
    did I get that right?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Yes.
        Chair Cornyn. With a name like mine, you have to--I'm
    always very sensitive to that. So, I won't try it again. But
    Mary served as the first ever ombudsman for unaccompanied
    children at HHS. She served in this non-political role from
    October, 2024 to March, 2025. Ms. Giovagnoli is an immigration
    lawyer with policy expertise and more than 25 years of Federal
    Government and non-profit experience. She's also served as
    Deputy Assistant Secretary for immigration policy at DHS from
    February, 2015 to January, 2017.
        So, if I can get you to please rise and if you'll raise
    your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole
    truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
        [Witnesses are sworn in.]
        Chair Cornyn. Thank you. Please have a seat. Chief Clem,
    we'll turn to you--for each of you for 5 minutes of opening
    statements, and then we will have some questions for you.

    STATEMENT OF CHRIS CLEM, RETIRED CHIEF PATROL AGENT AND FORMER
                SENIOR ADVISOR AT HHS, RED ROCK, ARIZONA

        Mr. Clem. Well, good afternoon, Chairman and Members of the
    Committee. My name is Chris Clem. I'm a retired Chief Patrol
    Agent in the U.S. Border Patrol. I began my career in 1995 in
    Lordsburg, New Mexico as a Border Patrol agent trainee, and
    retired on December 31, 2022 as the Chief Patrol Agent in Yuma,
    Arizona. In January this year, I was appointed to the position
    of senior advisor at Health and Human Services to be part of
    the transition to the Trump Administration for the first 100
    days.
        My responses to your questions will be based on my
    recollection of my experiences and observations over the last
    30 plus years. I spent most of my career along the southwest
    border. As a Border Patrol agent, I was a career government
    employee who served under five Presidential Administrations,
    starting under President Clinton and ending under President
    Biden. As a Border Patrol agent and chief, I was not a
    political appointee.
        I promoted through the ranks through competitive process
    and commanded five Border Patrol stations across Arizona, New
    Mexico, and Texas. I served as the Deputy Chief Patrol agent in
    the New Orleans Sector, El Paso sector, acting chief in Big
    Bend, Texas, and retired as the Chief Patrol Agent in Yuma,
    Arizona.
        Each location is different with its own set of unique
    circumstances from terrain to infrastructure, to communities
    and to threats. However, the one thing that is consistent
    across the spectrum is without border security, our agents, our
    community, the migrants, and our country are vulnerable.
    Without collaborative efforts of the community and other
    agencies, the mission is compromised. While immigration and
    border security are closely related, they're not mutually
    exclusive.
        However, without proper border security in the form of
    physical security, Border Patrol agents' strong policies and
    consequences, the integrity of the immigration system is
    compromised, and the founding principles surrounding the rule
    of law suffer. This is exceptionally prominent when it comes to
    dealing with unaccompanied alien children. And during my time
    at HHS, my direct assignment was overseeing the refugee
    resettlement and focusing on finding the missing children and
    directing changes to prevent this from happening again.
        I was laser focused on this narrow scope and it was my
    opinion that the country expected nothing less of me. My
    testimony and response today will be focused on the issues
    impacting UACs while at HHS and my experience with this issue
    throughout my professional career. During the Biden
    Administration, we know they set a record number of
    approximately 479,000 UACs entered the United States illegally.
    The children that entered the U.S. illegally ranged from months
    old to 17 years old. The reality is many of these children were
    adolescents and aware of what they were doing. Unfortunately,
    many of the younger and tender aged children did not.
        This is the ugly truth regarding our border and immigration
    policies and that encourage and exploit these vulnerable
    populations. While serving at HHS, I must say I was not
    surprised by the findings and the horror stories I was made
    aware of. Some were shocking, but again, not surprised. Bottom
    line, the system at ORR prioritized placement speed over
    protection of children.
        This complicates the entire system. For example, the Biden
    Administration delayed the notice of a peer filings for 120
    days, which impeded the ability of the Federal Government to
    track and monitor the UACs after release from ORR custody.
    Additionally, field guidance in 2021, relaxed sponsor vetting
    by removing biometric background checks requirements for
    category one or close relative sponsors, not requiring
    background checks of adult household members in those same
    categories, and eliminating coordination between case managers
    and co case coordinators to expedite the release to keep up
    with the surge of arrivals.
        Any organization involving children should be prioritizing
    their safety above all, especially knowing that many were
    exposed to violence and in horrible conditions throughout their
    journey to our border. I'm confident in stating that oftentimes
    the safest a child has been in that journey is with the Border
    Patrol. And a Border Patrol station is no place for a child,
    given the circumstances they were taken care of and prioritized
    until placed.
        I also observed that if a sponsor application met the
    minimum requirements or appeared to make the effort, it was
    generally acceptable. The followup and verification and vetting
    process sponsors was abysmal. I recall one case where a home
    site visit was conducted to assess the environment of a
    placement of a teen. The location was in Illinois and the site
    visit concluded with a do not place based on the alleged
    mother's gang affiliation, numerous unrelated adults and the
    general unsafe environment, the decision was overruled.
        The child who was 17 was found dead a few months later with
    his pants down with an adult male who was unconscious in the
    backseat of a car. The question remains, ``Why did we place
    this child? Additionally, there was a case involving a
    fraudulent sponsor claimed to be an adult brother of a 14-year-
    old female. The documents used were fraudulent, no family
    verification such as biometrics, fingerprints. However, the 14-
    year-old was placed with a 30-year-old male. The child was
    raped multiple times and became pregnant. The Department of
    Justice under Biden refused to prosecute the case, but
    fortunately, the State of Ohio detained this individual. The
    current Department of Justice filed federal charges and
    received an indictment by the grand jury.
        There are countless heinous crimes involving these UACs
    that have resulted from practices at ORR. It was my opportunity
    and my opportunity to fix that. Information sharing across the
    departments and agencies as best interest of the U.S.
    Government. All the UAC information received by ORR comes from
    encounters by DHS, the majority from Customs and Border
    Protection. In fact, referrals to ORR from CBP have increased
    recently.
        It begs the question, are these continuing lawsuits and
    injunctions and are presenting a false sense of security? And
    are the traffickers exploiting this and creating a pull factor?
    Only time will tell. During my time from January to May, I
    immediately stood up an internal task force from the ORR
    Integrity and Accountability Team to go through all the cases
    that were suspected of fraud.
        I also created what was referred to as the war room, where
    Federal law enforcement agents at DHS and others work side by
    side to review these cases and to find the missing children as
    well as target the fraudulent sponsors. Additionally, because
    of my background relationships with Federal law enforcement,
    specifically CBP, collectively, we were able to ensure every
    unaccompanied alien child encounter at the border, whether at
    the border between the border or at the ports, is met with by
    an HSI, Homeland Security Investigation special agent that
    would respond and conduct an interview at the encounter.
        In other words, an immediate action was taking place to
    address the smuggled or trafficked child to include responses
    to alleged sponsors or family members location that the child
    or the smuggler claims to be in coordination with. This helps
    ensure the criminal activity is addressed early on in the event
    rather than responding days, weeks, or months later.
        Recent reports indicated over 22,000 kids have been found
    and over 400 sponsors have had charges filed against them. This
    is only the tip of the iceberg as more unaccompanied children
    will be found and more criminal charges will be filed. I know
    I'm pressed for time, but one of the more dumbfounding
    discoveries revealed immediately to me upon arriving in January
    was an internal review by the Office of General Counsel at HHS.
        The review was conducted in 2023 based on a Florida grand
    jury investigation on the pharaohs and fraud at ORR and the
    impact of the State of Florida. The General Counsel National
    Complex litigation team was directed to conduct an internal
    audit to validate or invalidate the Florida case. The
    information found by OGC was not only verified and corroborated
    the Florida case, it found more evidence of fraud with
    placement of sponsorships of the UACs.
        The findings were briefed to politically appointed leaders
    at HHS, however, no known meaningful actions were put in place.
    That said, I authorized an additional OGC review to determine
    the status of ORR and the earlier findings. Once again, the
    results revealed that the previous findings were accurate and
    more evidence of suspected fraud was found.
        In fact, a sampling of a thousand suspected fraud cases
    confirmed evidence over 70 percent of those files were fraud.
    The timeline, the case reviewed for August 23 to January 25.
    Throughout my tenure at HHS, we were continuously looking for
    information, leads to find more about the missing kids, the
    practices, and solutions above all. During that time, we found
    several caches of unanswered notices of concerns.
        These notices were instruments used to communicate with ORR
    after a child had been placed outside of ORR. Anyone associated
    with the child, the child themselves, a sponsor, a family
    neighbor, an anonymous could report that via the notice of
    concern. We found an initial tranche of over 50,000, and then
    additional caches totaling 65,000 notices of concerns that went
    unanswered.
        These notices could range from complaints about food to
    inappropriate conduct. The fact is that those were 65,000
    opportunities to make a difference in a child's life that went
    unanswered. While I was there, we made huge strides in
    addressing these notices, and it's my understanding they're
    down to just a few hundred or a few thousand.
        Chair Cornyn. Chief if you'd wrap up your opening
    statement.
        Mr. Clem. Yes, I just want to say it's my hope in attending
    this and providing this information that we can learn from the
    failures of the past and move forward to prevent this from
    happening again. The reason why they come to this country is
    not the issue but it's how we handle it and how we keep them
    safe. So, my full statement has been submitted for the record,
    and I look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Clem appears as a submission
    for the record.]
        Chair Cornyn. Yes, all of your statements will be made part
    of the record. Thank you. And Senator Padilla would like to say
    a few words of introduction to Ms. Giovagnoli.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes. Just to add
    a little bit to your final introduction to Ms. Giovagnoli, just
    to call out some of the experience that she brings to this
    conversation, which I think is not only relevant, but usually
    helpful. She served with the Attorney General Honors Program as
    a trial attorney for Immigration Naturalization Service once
    upon a time INS in Chicago before joining the INS Office of
    General Counsel, important positions, quality experience.
        She then joined what's now USCIS Services office of the
    Principal Legal Advisor continuing to focus on asylum and
    refugee issues until she became USCIS Senior Advisor for
    Congressional Relations. Ms. Giovagnoli is also an alum of this
    very Subcommittee, having served as counsel for then Senator
    Edward Kennedy. So, I think relevant and constructive
    experience and I look forward to her testimony and our
    questions.
        Chair Cornyn. Thank you. Ms. Giovagnoli, we will turn to
    you for your opening statement.

          STATEMENT OF MARY E. GIOVAGNOLI, FORMER OMBUDS FOR
     UNACCOMPANIED CHILDREN AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN
                        SERVICES, WASHINGTON, DC

        Ms. Giovagnoli. Thank you, Chairman Cornyn, Ranking Member
    Padilla, and Members of the Subcommittee for the opportunity to
    speak to you about the grave harms facing unaccompanied
    children. My name is Mary Giovagnoli. After a long career as a
    Government immigration attorney and a nonprofit immigration
    policy advocate, I returned to the Government in October, 2024
    to become the first ombuds for unaccompanied children at the
    Department of Health and Human Services.
        I was a civil servant whose office provided an independent,
    impartial, and confidential resource to identify issues and
    concerns about the Government's treatment of unaccompanied
    children. I'd been in my position a few months when President
    Trump took office. Little did I know I would have only a month
    left before I was caught up in the mass firing of probationary
    workers.
        In that time, however, I witnessed firsthand how the Trump
    Administration transformed the Office of Refugee Resettlement,
    from a Child Protection Agency into an immigration enforcement
    tool, violating Federal law and endangering children.
        All of these actions were supposedly taken in the name of
    protecting children, including children that the Trump
    Administration claimed went missing under the prior
    administration. But that claim repeated here today is based on
    misinterpretation of reports about children's safety and is
    being used to wage a campaign of terror against children and
    their families.
        The greatest threat to unaccompanied children's safety
    today comes from the policies of the Trump Administration,
    whose reckless actions are making children more vulnerable to
    trafficking and other harms by isolating them from loved ones,
    denying them access to services and destroying their ability to
    trust Government officials.
        The gravity of the situation is exemplified by the Trump
    Administration's plans to remove 600 Guatemalan children
    without warning or due process. In the wee hours of the morning
    on the Sunday before Labor Day, roughly 76 unaccompanied
    children in shelter or foster care were shaken from their beds
    and told that they would be removed to Guatemala in a few
    hours' time.
        But for a temporary restraining order issued at 4:30 in the
    morning, these children would've been whisked away without due
    process to a country that many had fled for fear of their
    lives. Nothing about this incident enhances the safety of
    children. Everything about this incident demonstrates the
    Administration's disregard for children, regardless of sound
    bites to the contrary. This disregard takes many forms. ORR is
    now administered by former ICE officials who are needlessly
    separating parents and children, imposing higher barriers for
    sponsorship and allowing ICE to participate in the sponsorship
    decisionmaking process, and to arrest sponsors at those
    interviews.
        Children are now averaging 6 months in custody with
    potentially devastating impact on their health and mental well-
    being. ORR also abruptly terminated Federal funding for legal
    representation that is vital to protecting the safety of over
    26,000 unaccompanied children. Although the funding was
    temporarily restored by court order, the future of legal
    protection for children is deeply in doubt.
        These protections are critical. Without the network of
    legal and social service providers, the Government would've
    succeeded in removing the Guatemalan children under the cover
    of darkness, ignoring their legal claims and the responsibility
    to follow the law. In court, the Government asserted then later
    retracted an inaccurate claim that the children's parents had
    requested their return to Guatemala, they had not.
        In doing so, the Government attorney acknowledged it is
    unfortunate that the children were frightened and pulled out in
    the middle of the night. It was more than unfortunate. It is an
    indictment of the lack of sensitivity to children encouraged by
    this Administration. I think we can all agree that we're
    required to protect unaccompanied children under law but also
    as a matter of conscience and duty.
        Extreme responses to tragedy ultimately do not serve
    children's best interests. Crafting a program that maximizes
    protection and minimizes the risk of harm is difficult and
    requires constant assessment, significant resources, and
    multiple levels of oversight. Balancing competing risks and
    harms will always be difficult but the well-being of children
    should guide us.
        I've worked for decades with people across the political
    spectrum to improve the immigration system for children. In
    fact, on the fateful day of September 11, 2001, I was an INS
    attorney drafting testimony for Commissioner James Ziegler, a
    Republican appointee to announce significant changes at INS to
    improve the care for unaccompanied children.
        That announcement was never made, but ultimately, in the
    aftermath of the great tragedy, when Congress created the
    Department of Homeland Security, it also transferred the care
    and custody of children to HHS. Even in our fear and sorrow,
    there was bipartisan consensus that children's best interests
    could not be protected if they were cared for by the same
    agency seeking to deport them.
        Rather than prove the judgment of Congress wrong, the Trump
    Administration has demonstrated that blurring the lines leads
    to lasting harm. I look forward to discussing more balanced
    solutions to protecting unaccompanied children during the day's
    hearing. I can assure you that none of those recommendations
    include shaking children from their beds in the middle of the
    night. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Giovagnoli appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chair Cornyn. Ms. Hopper.

    STATEMENT OF ALI HOPPER, PRESIDENT & CO-FOUNDER, GUARD AGAINST
                      TRAFFICKING, VENICE, FLORIDA

        Ms. Hopper. Chairman Cornyn, Ranking Member Padilla and the
    distinguished Committee Members, thank you for the opportunity
    to testify. Charlie Kirk once said, ``We are called to fight
    evil and proclaim truth, that as Christians, we are called to
    enter the public arena to correct error with truth.'' He
    believed that if you believe in something, you must have the
    courage to fight for it.
        We honor him today as I testify, standing to fight evil and
    proclaim truth in defense of children. I am Ali Hopper,
    president and co-founder of Guard Against Trafficking. I
    testified before Congress in November, 2024 and July, 2025 on
    child exploitation at the border, an NGO negligence. As a
    Hispanic mother, I cannot imagine the trauma these children
    have endured.
        Today, I'm here to address this ongoing crisis and outline
    what must be done to ensure accountability and justice. Through
    extensive field work and interviews with human traffickers,
    cartel members, whistleblowers and unaccompanied alien
    children, my research partner, Dr. Jared Sadowsky, and I were
    exposed to an assembly line of exploitation.
        Children moved through cartel-controlled routes, carrying
    slips of paper, naming the sponsors they were instructed to
    request. We saw those slips ourselves. Border Patrol processed
    them. HHS released them. NGO's received them. Government
    contractors transported them. Step-by-step, children were
    handed off with virtually no oversight, sometimes ending up
    with cartel-controlled sponsors and all of it was funded on the
    backs of American taxpayers.
        A whistleblower who served as a director of Cherokee
    Federal's Pomona Fairplex described to us alarming misconduct.
    Delayed background checks allowed a registered sex offender to
    access children. A gang member using a false identity was
    assigned to place children with sponsors. Children were sent to
    empty fields, overcrowded apartments and at least, were sent to
    addresses later discovered to be strip clubs.
        Hundreds were routinely miscounted. Several 13-to 17-year-
    old girls were taken offsite to an abortion clinic without his
    knowledge or authorization. Some after months of being in
    custody, suggesting pregnancies occurred during their journey
    or while in facility care. Any staff who raised concerns were
    silenced or terminated. Failures extended to NGO's and
    contractors transporting the children.
        The Association for the Recovery of Children documented
    multiple ORR violations while observing a chartered flight of
    migrant children that arrived in Tennessee. Joey, a former MVM
    site supervisor, reported staff raising concerns about children
    crying and not knowing their sponsors.
        When he questioned the screening process, he was told to
    stay in his lane while upper management reportedly said, ``We
    are going to have to start flying some of these kids overseas,
    there aren't enough sponsors and we need to get them out of
    here.'' But transportation was only part of the problem. Once
    children were placed, oversight disappeared.
        Post placement welfare frequently failed, leaving over
    300,000 children unaccounted for. Recently, we discovered
    roughly 117 children were trafficked to a Midwest farm. Some
    arriving at schools with STDs or pregnant. Our intervention has
    triggered a criminal investigation. The risks to children are
    reflected in the increasingly sophisticated methods cartels use
    to operate undetected.
        A former trafficker we interviewed explained that while
    smuggling fees have doubled, operations have largely shifted
    underground waiting until this Administration's term ends.
    Cartels now rely on elaborate tunnels, some running beneath the
    Rio Grande River, designed and built by migrants with
    specialized engineering skills who were coerced into cartel
    ranks.
        Cartels are also expanding beyond sexual exploitation,
    forced labor and organ harvesting into the trafficking of
    newborns. NGO's in Mexico have facilitated transfers providing
    false papers and concealing the circumstances of the adoption.
    Journalist, Katerina Schulz told us of a horrific trend in
    Juarez, Mexico, where pregnant women are kidnapped, their
    babies are forcibly extracted, the mothers are left to die and
    the babies are sold for illegal adoption in El Paso.
        It is essential to back current efforts to secure the
    border, locate missing children and investigate criminal
    networks while simultaneously enacting immediate corrective
    measures to fix systemic failures and ensure accountability.
    Therefore, I respectfully urge the Senate to audit ORR
    contracts over a $100,000,000 to start and claw back unspent
    funds, drastically shake up the ORRUAC program for failed
    sponsor vetting and post-release monitoring and strengthen law
    enforcement Federal agency collaboration to share data, track
    sponsors, locate missing children and dismantle trafficking
    networks.
        We have a responsibility and opportunity to act with
    courage and moral clarity, to restore integrity to the system
    and protect the innocent lives depending on us. Thank you for
    your time and I look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Hopper appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chair Cornyn. Thank you, Ms. Hopper. We'll start with 5-
    minute rounds and I will begin. Chief Clem, what is the main
    driving force for this smuggling of minor children from their
    homes in Central or South America, or Mexico into the United
    States? What's the incentive that's driving that?
        Mr. Clem. Well first of all, it is profit. The cartels and
    the smuggling organizations are commodity neutral, whether it's
    people, kids, or product. It's about overall money, but also
    some of the existing loopholes that in our system that we've
    all mentioned today that they can get these kids here in the
    United States and continue to do that to make profit. And
    again, it's loopholes in the laws.
        Chair Cornyn. So, in your experience after 27\1/2\ years, I
    think is Government service your view is that that these
    criminal organizations that frequently called transnational
    criminal organizations have simply become expert at how to
    exploit the U.S. laws or U.S. law enforcement?
        Mr. Clem. 100 percent. I mean, they are excellent at
    information and intelligence gathering on what we're doing here
    in the United States, from monitoring operations to monitoring
    what we're doing here on a House floor or a Senate floor.
    They're listening to what we're doing and they're going to
    adjust their business model based on what U.S. policies are.
        Chair Cornyn. And we've heard some concerns expressed which
    I share about the treatment of any minor child while in U.S.
    custody. Not a lot of discussion about the incentives that
    drive parents or family members to turn their kids over to
    cartels to transmit them to the to the border. But in your
    experience, are many of the children that are turned over to
    the coyotes or the smugglers or abused along the way?
        Mr. Clem. I think just the general process that goes on to
    be smuggled through Mexico into our U.S. border is horrific
    because of the stash houses, the unrelated adults, the things
    that are going on. Are many of them abused? Yes. Not all of
    them but we have seen plenty of them that are pretty
    traumatized. They don't say much to us and when they're in our
    custody but we do have avenues to get them the support they
    need while they're in our custody.
        At the end of the day, when the volumes are so high, we
    don't always see that while they're with Border Patrol. And it
    comes out later when they're placed in ORR.
        Chair Cornyn. Well, speaking of the volumes, if the policy
    of the Biden Administration was essentially to wave anybody who
    shows up at the border in, particularly those who utter the
    magic words that they're coached to say in order to qualify for
    a preliminary screening for asylum, that overwhelmed the
    capacity of the Border Patrol to deal with them, did they not?
        We saw crowded detention facilities. We saw Border Patrol
    rather than protecting the border feeding children, changing
    diapers, transporting them, did it overwhelm our capacity to
    deal with it? But the policies of the previous administration?
        Mr. Clem. Well, I was firsthand on the ground there in Yuma
    especially where we would sometimes hold 5,000-6,000 people in
    the parking lot in the soft side of facilities that were in
    constructed to maintain this flow. There were times where in my
    126 miles of border, we had four agents out there because we
    were too busy processing. Now, I will say for the record, Yuma
    did not have a large unaccompanied alien child crossing, my
    neighbors in Tucson did.
        My neighbors in San Diego did. We just had people from 116
    different countries overwhelming all of our resources. So, we
    could not put the effort, the law enforcement, the criminal
    investigation piece on any of the trafficking and smuggling
    operations that were going on because we were outnumbered
    sometimes 10-to-1, 50-to--1 on illegal aliens and Border Patrol
    agents.
        Chair Cornyn. So, Ms. Hopper I have it in my hand an
    article from the Atlantic Journal-Constitution entitled, ``For
    migrant girls, new lives in the U.S. brings a risk of sexual
    abuse.'' And we are, without objection, going to make that part
    of the record, is that the future that many of these young
    girls face coming into the United States and being placed with
    unvetted sponsors.
        [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
        Ms. Hopper. It is unfortunately and when it doesn't include
    the sexual exploitation that they encounter along the journey,
    only to be further sexually exploited once they come into the
    country that article clearly outlines that, yes.
        Chair Cornyn. And do we know whether those young girls who
    are traumatized by that whether they receive the mental and
    physical healthcare that they may need in the United States or
    are they just--is that something we just don't know the answer
    to?
        Ms. Hopper. We are unclear of the answer to that.
        Chair Cornyn. Okay. Thank you. Senator Padilla.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a couple of
    things in response to Mr. Clem's remarks and yours, Mr. Chair,
    I do believe we have engaged unfruitfully but an ongoing
    conversation for years now about part of the solution here to
    modernize out immigration system is to address root causes.
        What is it that drives people, children, adults, women, and
    men, to want to come to United States for a variety of reasons.
    And there's been periods of time over administrations where our
    engagement with not just the Government leaders in Mexico but
    throughout the hemisphere being effective in stemming the flow.
        And so, I'm glad you're putting that on the table and look
    forward to working with you on that. The other thing I would
    recognize from Mr. Clem is a recognition that the number of
    countries represented in migrants coming to United States.
    They're not all from Mexico, they're coming through Mexico. And
    that's an important distinction, so I appreciate that.
        But I do want to turn my attention to the children who are
    in custody today because despite significantly lower numbers at
    the border, including the arrivals of unaccompanied children
    being weighed down, children are spending dramatically more
    time in ORR custody under this Administration.
        [Poster is displayed.]
        As the chart behind me shows when there were 6,000 children
    in custody on any typical day in October, 2024, they were in
    custody for about 49 days. That was consistent for a long time.
    Currently, there's roughly 2000 children in custody on any
    given day but they're spending roughly 6 months in custody.
        That's fewer children spending a lot more time in ORR
    facilities, not because ORR is overwhelmed from this reduced
    workload but because of the changes this Administration has
    made to impose what seemed to be new barriers to family
    reunification. This Administration has created new restrictions
    that have kept even biological parents from quickly being
    reunited with children, creating hurdles that have nothing to
    do with the child's safety.
        And I agree that is paramount but we have to strike the
    right balance. What difference does the legal status of a
    loving, caring parent or family member make when determining
    whether a child can be well cared for and safe? The truth is,
    it doesn't. All it does is make children feel like they're
    being treated as bait while languishing in custody, while
    mental health deteriorates over time. Six months is a long,
    long time.
        Ms. Giovagnoli, can you tell us how these policies run
    counter to the law that protects children in our Government's
    care and custody and speak to the impact on children when their
    sponsors are too afraid to come forward and claim them?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I think that it's
    important to sort of ground this in the idea that ORR's
    responsibility to care for the children starts with, under the
    law, identifying appropriate sponsor once the child is coming
    to their care and then going through a very elaborate and
    rigorous process for vetting those sponsors. And I think what
    people often don't realize is that this also involves trying to
    reach the parents in the home country if the child has a parent
    remaining in the home country to determine both what the
    dynamic is between the child and the parent but also to
    determine what the parent's interests are in terms of placing
    their children with sponsors.
        And so I think every effort is made to try to find, if not
    the parent, then some other loving family member to take the
    responsibility for the child. When that's not possible, there
    are various other levels of care that they try to release a
    child into because ultimately, congregate care for children can
    have a really detrimental impact on their health and their
    well-being.
        And it is everything from the fact that these shelters are
    not really designed to have the services, I should say, to care
    for children long term. So there comes a point in time where
    educational needs really begin to suffer. Other opportunities
    that the children may have if they were outside the congregate
    care setting that they aren't able to enjoy.
        So, their development can really be hampered by longtime
    custody. Sometimes that's the only option. But the goal of both
    the TVPRA of the current regulations governing care and
    placement of children and basic child welfare principles is
    that you should try to reunite children with their parents
    whenever you can, safely.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know 5 minutes
    goes back quickly. I have additional questions. I'll wait for
    the second round.
        Chair Cornyn. Senator Moody.
        Senator Moody. Thank you so much and thank you for holding
    this hearing. I think it's incredibly important as we move
    forward. I was very concerned--I'm not planning on heading down
    this road, but it shocked me to my core to hear the testimony
    Ms. Giovagnoli that Trump claimed kids went missing.
        As attorney general in the State of Florida and working
    with law enforcement around our State, and litigating
    constantly against the Biden Administration as they broke down
    the border and put kids in jeopardy and began to legally
    traffic children, well, let me rephrase that. Under the
    auspices of legality, traffic children around the United
    States, we were afraid that that would be a claim, because
    sometimes when things get into a partisan world of discussion,
    people think it's made up.
        And that's why I was so fascinated with the results of a
    grand jury investigation that we conducted in Florida. And I
    was the attorney general. And that is a grand jury. For those
    that don't know is not Republicans or Democrats. It's just lay
    people that give up their time to come and listen to testimony
    and witnesses and produce a report.
        And the report was shocking. And this was in the middle of
    the Biden Administration. The State wide grand jury on this
    particular issue found that the Biden Administration over the
    course of the Administration, but even in a short period of
    time, over a 10-month period, they lost thousands of children.
    When they investigated, they found that they were put into
    situations where they were abused.
        Children were running away from sponsors, sold for sex,
    sent to empty lots, a strip club in one instance, one teenage
    girl was placed with a house of an unknown man. She had no idea
    who the person was. And so merely they found that the Biden
    Administration was facilitating the forced trafficking of
    children. I mean, you can't put it any other way.
        I'm not saying that, a grand jury found that. And what was
    shocking to is the first time I've heard it until today, was to
    hear from you, Mr. Clem, and that was even before I heard of
    the allegation that Trump is claiming the Biden Administration
    lost thousands of children, which I can't believe you can sit
    there and say that with a straight face, but that you, when you
    got into office, you said, ``This report cannot be ignored.
    What happened to it? Did they even get it?'' And indeed, you
    found they did get it and it was a sign for someone to review
    to determine if it was in fact happening. Is that right?
        Mr. Clem. That's correct.
        Senator Moody. And as a result of your allegations, or your
    direction, they found that not only was it happening, it had
    continued throughout the administration?
        Mr. Clem. Just for clarification, when the initial report
    came from your Florida, the Becerra led HHS, reviewed it, some
    of the political leaders there were briefed on this but nothing
    was done. It just sat there. There was no meaningful action
    that we could determine that happened after that.
        So, when I was briefed on that in late January and early
    February this year, I said, ``Wait a second. We need to update
    this and verify this.'' So, we conducted a second review and we
    corroborate everything that the initial HHS review corroborated
    and then some. So two strikes on this one. In a good way for us
    on this because we're finding the mistakes and we're finding
    ways to solve them.
        Senator Moody. And I want to commend the hard work that
    you've been doing. In fact, we've already made some progress in
    recognizing that this is a child welfare issue and that these
    children need some sort of a structure. In fact, when we were
    doing recent legislation here federally, we tied some of that
    funding to active cooperation with State child welfare agencies
    because the States are the ones that deal with child welfare
    and stability within their States.
        I know some States and even lawmakers wanted to turn a
    blind eye to what's going on and now they just want to focus on
    the last 8 months. And just forget about the fact that all of
    those administration officials knew what was going on, not only
    looked into it, verified it, but then buried it. And was that
    at the same time when you had administration officials coming
    to testify to lawmakers here and saying, ``Nothing to see,
    everything is fine?''
        Mr. Clem. I don't know the answer to that but I know that
    report and that study was done in late 2023. So that I couldn't
    answer in the affirmative or negative on that timeline.
        Senator Moody. Well, we had some progress. We've tied
    funding now to making sure that if funding goes to these States
    that they've got to cooperate with child welfare, that's
    important. I was proud to get that done over the summer. But
    I've also introduced a Stop GAPS Act, which would require ORR
    to work with States and local authorities to guarantee that
    anyone granted custody of an unaccompanied minor is properly
    vetted. I want to add to making sure we're coordinating with
    State authorities but now make sure there's vetting in place as
    well. Hopefully the State authorities are already doing that.
        So, I would invite, if truly we want to engage in a
    bipartisan way, I would invite anyone to sign on to this
    bipartisan legislation to make sure that children are going to
    properly vetted homes and that those that are trained to deal
    with child welfare are given the responsibility and knowledge.
        In fact, the real challenge for States like Florida that
    wanted to do this and wanted to ensure that these children were
    looked after and not sold, we know they ended up many times in
    forced labor as well. They wouldn't give us any information. We
    pleaded, we held grand juries, we asked Biden to send or we
    asked the Government to send people to testify. Just send us
    documents. They stonewalled us--they stonewalled us.
        And so, the only way the States are going to be able to
    protect children is if they have the information, not if people
    are flown in and by the cover of darkness, not if they're snuck
    into nonprofits and then let to go whoever shows up to pick
    them up. There has to be accountability.
        So again, I would ask my colleagues, Stop GAPS Act. I think
    it'll go a long way to ensuring the safety of children.
        Chair Cornyn. Senator Durbin.
        Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for your
    holding this hearing. A few weeks ago, I went to the
    immigration court in downtown Chicago. I recommend that to my
    colleagues, to spend the morning in the immigration court and
    watch what happens. People come in with appointed times, some
    with attorneys, some without, carrying beaten up old envelopes
    with Federal documents in it.
        This is their day for their appearance. It's a big day in
    their lives. For some of them, they're going to find out
    whether they can stay in the United States or whether they have
    a chance to achieve some sort of status that gives them a
    future. I was greeted at the door when I went to the
    immigration court by the chief judge.
        She had been with the court for 9 years and she walked me
    up to the courtroom and escorted me in and I sat down and she
    left. I watched as the proceedings continued and someone came
    to me and said, ``There are no ICE agents in the courthouse
    today, which is unusual, they heard you were coming.'' The ICE
    agents were showing up at the hearings that the people were
    told they have to attend and detaining them in the hallways.
        So, you can imagine the dilemma that these individuals are
    facing. Do I get into the system and hope that it works? Or do
    I get into the building and hope that I don't get detained? Two
    weeks after I visited that immigration court, they fired the
    judge who had been there for 9 years and escorted me into the
    building, and sent a memo out to all of the other judges and
    personnel not to have any conversations with Members of
    Congress. Is that how this is supposed to work?
        In my mind, it tells you what's going on in the real world
    out there. People who are trying to find out if they have a
    legal path in this system. For many of them, even if they
    believe they have one, it may not work. We're seeing people now
    who are being detained, who are citizens of the United States,
    snatched off the street corners and other places and they have
    no history of committing any crimes.
        Some of them are here legally, some of them in status, some
    not in status. The other thing that I came to do over the years
    was to visit these ORR facilities for children. There's one
    called Heartland in Chicago. You may have heard of it, Ms.
    Giovagnoli. I believe they're good people and I believe they're
    honestly trying to treat these children well. I can't
    understand.
        I cannot understand how desperate a mother must be to turn
    her child over to a coyote or a transporter to take that little
    child into the United States in the hopes that they'll link up
    with somebody in the family. I can't imagine that, particularly
    when you consider the hardships they go through. I can remember
    scenes where two little girls walked into a room. They wanted
    me to see them.
        They were holding hands about 5 years old each. And I said,
    ``Who are these little girls?'' And they said, ``They've
    decided they're sisters but one of them is from Guatemala and
    the other is from Mexico.'' They're just being kicked around
    the system. They're looking for anything that looks like family
    or security.
        So, in those situations, we have this problem as well. If
    they're placed with someone who the agency believes is a
    responsible person, some people have criticized the fact that
    they can't get followup phone calls to these same people. Why
    can't we find these kids? Some of the situations are such that
    the families they're with don't want to link up with this
    Government.
        There may be somebody in the household who's undocumented,
    they're frightened to be part of the legal system. That's a
    dilemma. If we're going to keep the kids safe, we have to know
    these people are and that they're doing the right thing. But
    the system is militating against that at this very moment.
    People are scared to death of the Trump Administration
    deporting them and so they're not cooperating. Ms. Giovagnoli,
    is anyone taking your place as ombudsman?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. No one's been hired for my position, no.
    There's an acting ombuds but that person is actually also the
    acting Commissioner of the Children's Bureau, I believe so.
    They're not doing my job really.
        Senator Durbin. Ms. Hopper, I understand the Administration
    is removed more than 70 percent of the workforce monitoring and
    combating trafficking in persons and delayed the release of its
    annual report documenting human trafficking. Does this rollback
    of investigative and oversight resources help in the cause of
    making sure children are not trafficked?
        Ms. Hopper. I think when you inherit a burning building,
    you need to focus on putting out the fire in the house and then
    focus on recovery of the house. And so right now, focusing on
    closing the borders, getting out the worst in our country and
    finding these children is a priority, so.
        Senator Durbin. If the building's on fire, the first call
    is for firefighters to come and help, right?
        Ms. Hopper. Yes.
        Senator Durbin. In this case, the building's on fire. And
    the first thing we're doing is calling the fire department
    saying, ``Don't report, we don't need any additional people on
    the scene.'' Don't we need both?
        Ms. Hopper. We need Border Patrol agents to protect our
    borders and to get out the worst of the worst.
        Senator Durbin. Yes. And do we also need people to work
    with unaccompanied children and others who are trying to find a
    safe way through our system?
        Ms. Hopper. Absolutely.
        Senator Durbin. Thank you.
        Chair Cornyn. I know we have other folks on this side of
    the aisle that plan on coming but in the meantime, we'll go
    ahead with Senator Hirono.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Border security is
    important and a part of border security is what happens to
    unaccompanied minor children. I introduced a Fair Day In Court
    For Kids Act, which would ensure unaccompanied children with
    legal representation in immigration court. And like Senator
    Durbin, I have visited the immigration court in Maryland and
    unaccompanied children who have to contend with immigration
    court.
        And children as young as--I know that Senator Durbin had
    noted that he has seen children as young as under 5 years old
    having to stand before the judge. You have to help the child
    get on a seat. How is that child supposed to contend with this
    kind of system? So having representation, legal representation
    is important and there's no way that, as I said, a child can
    navigate our complex immigration system on his or her own. And
    immigration judges are a hundred times less likely to provide
    relief to unaccompanied children without Counsel, as compared
    to children who have Counsel.
        But I also mentioned this because legal representation is a
    powerful weapon against these children being trafficked. I have
    a number of questions for Ms. Giovagnoli. So, do you agree that
    having children have legal Counsel is an important way for us
    to contend with the dilemmas faced by unaccompanied minors in
    our country?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Legal Counsel is essential Senator. And I
    think the whole community is grateful to you for reintroducing
    the Fair Day and Court Act precisely because it recognizes that
    every unaccompanied child should have legal representation.
        Senator Hirono. The thing is that earlier this year, this
    Administration attempted to cut funding for legal
    representation. We don't even provide legal representation for
    all the children but that there was some funding for that and
    there was an attempt to cut this funding for these vulnerable
    children. It is incredible that this destructive move is
    actually going to help traffickers because I think that it
    provides a fertile ground for children who do not have this
    kind of support for the traffickers to move in.
        And the Trump Administration recently detained roughly 600
    military lawyers, JAG lawyers to serve as temporary immigration
    judges. And these military officers will serve as--I mean, they
    do have other jobs that they're supposed to be doing as JAG
    officers but then these military officers will serve as judges
    for who knows how long, typically an immigration judge receives
    months of classroom-based training and on the job training,
    including a mentorship program that lasts more than a year.
        So, it is a specialized thing to be an immigration judge. I
    mention all of this because one of the most important jobs that
    an immigration judge has is to look for signs of trafficking,
    especially considering the Administration's attempted reduction
    of funding for lawyers for unaccompanied minors. It will be
    that much more important for these judges to guard against
    trafficking.
        So training is important. You can't just move 600 JAG
    people to become immigration judges and you know frankly, a lot
    of that is being done simply to move things along, not
    necessary to protect the minors. So Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that
    you're holding this hearing but I note that we do not have
    anybody from the current Administration to provide us with an
    opportunity to question what is actually going on today,
    especially since mere weeks ago this Administration tried to
    send scores of vulnerable children back to Guatemala as noted
    with no due process in the middle of the night against their
    wishes and their parents' wishes.
        So, somebody had to seek a TRO, which was granted. So, in
    the court the Administration tried to argue that this
    particular move to deport all these children was done at the
    request of the children's parents, not so. The Administration
    withdrew that claim when it became clear that that was not the
    truth. When an administration withdraws a major claim like that
    in court, Congress must get to the bottom of what is going on.
        So, again, it would be helpful, Mr. Chairman, if we
    actually have somebody from this Administration to respond to
    our questions. Back to Ms. Giovagnoli, I'm running out of time.
    Are you con confident that these temporary JAG judges will be
    able to do the job as they're just sort of moved over to do
    immigration?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Well, with respect to the judges who are
    being put in this position, I think that without the proper
    training--particularly if they're going to be seeing children's
    cases--it can be really--it will be really a disaster for the
    children who appear before a judge who isn't trained in the
    immigration law and in the special needs of a child.
        Senator Hirono. And we note that your position has not been
    filled. So, there is no ombudsman for these unaccompanied
    children. And I do want to know Mr. Chairman, that this
    Administration is using so called wellness checks to check up
    on children. And while they're added, they scoop up people who
    may be have been vetted but who may not be documented.
        And so, they are scooped up because the Administration has
    a goal of arresting at least 3000 people a day. Some of them
    for deportation purposes, some of them may be U.S. citizens.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chair Cornyn. Well, it strikes me that the argument that
    you're making is that the welfare of these children should be
    sacrificed because somebody in the household might be illegally
    present in the United States and subject to deportation.
    Senator Britt.
        Senator Britt. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, I appreciate
    the opportunity to have this hearing today and want to thank
    all of the witnesses for your time and ability to come and
    speak to us on this important issue. Chief Clem, I'm going to
    start with you. You served in Border Patrol for over 27 years
    and so I know you've had a front row seat to witness the crisis
    at our Southern Border and including the spike in arrivals of
    UACs.
        I know that you've talked a little bit about this today.
    But specifically, I believe we need to amend Section 235 of the
    Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008,
    which is primary, the loophole that is used in our laws to
    incentivize the illegal immigration of UACs to our Southern
    Border. I've been proud to co-sponsor a number of bills that
    will actually do just that but it's also worth noting that
    historically that has been a bipartisan position.
        June 2014, President Obama sent a letter to congressional
    leadership asking Congress to amend this act. And even the
    Washington Post editorial board followed suit in August 2014.
    Can you explain to everyone how Section 235 of the TVPRA has
    incentivized illegal migration of UACs to the Southern Border,
    particularly UACs from non-contiguous countries?
        Mr. Clem. I'm going to do my best to recall that specific
    section but what I understand, the TVPRA and especially having
    worked up in Washington, DC as the CBP head for President
    Obama's executive actions during that timeframe, when we saw
    that initial push of UACs in South Texas. TVPRA allows for
    immediate repatriation to contiguous countries, Mexico and
    Canada.
        Senator Britt. Right.
        Mr. Clem. What we need and when you get to the incentivize,
    is why are we separating Canada and Mexico from all the other
    countries, especially those in our hemisphere, central America,
    who are generally allies. Why would we not treat the UACs with
    a rapid repatriation once we've done an initial screening to
    ensure that they're not trafficked or not victims of any kind
    of abuse but once that's cleared, we should treat them and get
    them back to their home country as quickly as possible.
        Just like we would do with the Canadian national or a
    Mexican national. I think that would close a loophole and keep
    the family. Because that's oftentimes what happens. The
    families are separated before they even get to our border. Come
    up with a more clear and direct process for someone to lawfully
    immigrate United States versus sending their child in here and
    then hoping they can reconnect later.
        Senator Britt. Right. And look, I believe that this creates
    a safety issue, not only in many times for the lives of the
    UACs but also for the American people in many ways. And in
    June, 2024, a report from the House Judiciary Subcommittee on
    Immigration Integrity, Security and Enforcement discussed the
    fact that at the time more than 400,000 UACs were released to
    sponsors by the Biden, Harris Administration, which is a 100
    percent increase compared to that of the first Trump
    Administration.
        Most of them were teenage boys. And if you look at it,
    nearly 70 percent of UACs referred to HHS were 15 years of age
    or older. And in fact, only 19 percent were actually under the
    age of 12. And the report also found that HHS did not have a
    policy to refer known gang members to the Justice Department.
    Additionally, it went on HHS did not ask UACs' home country and
    consulates or embassies for their criminal record, despite
    having the actual ability to do that.
        And HHS admitted that it did not currently have any secure
    facilities designed for the secure placement of UACs who posed
    a danger to themselves or those who had been determined to have
    a criminal record. So, it's worth noting and remembering the
    Biden, Harris Administration released a 17-year-old MS-13 gang
    member who had entered the country as a UAC and then went on to
    sexually assault and murder 20-year-old Kyla Hamilton.
        For the record, Kyla was an actual legal resident of
    Maryland, unlike others who we've heard a lot about in the last
    couple of months. Chief Clem in my remaining minute here, what
    reforms do you think are needed within the UAC program to
    prevent future release of UACs who actually pose a threat to
    the safety of Americans?
        Mr. Clem. Yes. We cannot dismiss the fact that many of
    these kids, as you mentioned, are 15 or older. They're much
    more, in my opinion, mature than some of the 15-year-olds here
    in the United States. They've had a hardened life but they've
    been exposed to these gangs and they're willing to do the work
    of the gangs and for the safety of other children and for
    safety of the United States. We have to look at this from a law
    enforcement perspective, first to protect everybody.
        So, I would make sure that we have separate funding and
    facilities for those that are believed to be criminal, illegal,
    alien children associated with gangs. So we can make sure that
    they are not put into settings or released to other gang
    members.
        Senator Britt. Right.
        Mr. Clem. This is what it's all about. In order to find
    this bipartisan solution, we have to recognize that there is a
    criminal element associated with illegally--in the United
    States, whether you're an adult or a child, let's focus on that
    piece to protect everyone involved, most importantly, the
    American citizens, but the migrants themselves and then start
    taking small chunks at the immigration system overall.
        But we cannot sit there and broad brush and say every child
    over here and every sponsor is doing this for the right reason
    because we've got proof, the otherwise. So we have to put law
    enforcement as a priority first to protect Americans and these
    children. After that, you got an uphill battle on solving the
    immigration piece but it should be a quick solution to target
    the criminal element involved in all of this.
        Senator Britt. Thank you so much, Chief Clem, and I'll
    submit the rest of my questions for the record. Thank you.
        Chair Cornyn. So Chief, with 500,000 unaccompanied children
    during the Biden Administration, 4 years, we know those numbers
    have dropped precipitously since that time in terms of the
    number of unaccompanied minors coming into the country. And I
    think the total for 2025 is roughly 28,000. So that's 500,000,
    28,000 now. So it's dropped dramatically. What would you
    attribute that drop in the number of unaccompanied children
    showing up at the border to?
        Mr. Clem. Well, most importantly, it's the enforcement
    action at the border. It's the consequences for anybody that
    crosses the border. And exactly what some of the concerns are
    that have been spoke about today is that we are going after the
    sponsors. We are making sure that we are putting the child's
    best interest first.
        So, when length of the care goes up from 60 days to 6
    months, that's a good thing because we're making sure we're not
    putting them back into a potential criminal environment. And
    yes, if somebody in that family is undocumented, they should be
    arrested and detained, and the family can stay together. So,
    when you see that drop, that's because enforcement is taking
    place that had been virtually not used or should I rephrase
    that, that it wasn't done at the level that it could have been
    done over the previous administrations.
        Senator Cornyn. So, Ms. Giovagnoli, do you agree with Chief
    Clem that if in fact a member of the household where these
    children are placed with a sponsor, if they in fact are
    illegally present in the United States, that they should be
    deported?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. I think it depends on the situation but
    they shouldn't be--you know what, let me say it a different
    way.
        Chair Cornyn. Well, I'd like you to answer my question.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Well, I'm trying to. I'm just trying to
    think about the best way to do it. The mere fact that someone
    is here unlawfully without authorization doesn't necessarily
    mean that they should be deported.
        Chair Cornyn. It's a crime.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Is it?
        Chair Cornyn. Yes.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. I don't think so. It's a civil matter.
        Chair Cornyn. No, it's a crime.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. It's a civil matter.
        Chair Cornyn. So, you don't think that people illegally
    present should be deported?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. It depends on the situation.
        Chair Cornyn. Okay. Well, is that why you--while you worked
    for the Department of Health and Human Services and that you
    did not seek to vet the other members of the household where
    these children were placed?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Well, Senator, first of all, many of the
    allegations about improper vetting and things like that
    actually occurred before I got to HHS. Second, my job----
        Chair Cornyn. I'm talking about on your watch. Did you see
    children placed with sponsors in households where the other
    members of the household were unvetted?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Sir, my job was to receive reports from all
    stakeholders and investigate those reports. I did not get
    reports of that kind. So, I don't have an answer for you
    because I wasn't involved in that part of the process.
        Chair Cornyn. Well, don't you think it would be a good idea
    to vet the other members of the household to see if maybe,
    let's say, one of them is not a sex offender?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. I think that the vetting standards that are
    in place now and those standards have increased significantly
    allow or are to do that in many situations. But also, the
    important thing is that if you have enough information that you
    can determine that the child is going to be placed safely, you
    continue to check on that child.
        And under the Biden Administration, the post release
    services went from only 20 percent of children to a 100 percent
    of children in terms of having other followups and other points
    of contact. You also have attorneys to make sure that the
    children are safe.
        Chair Cornyn. Well, I thought the New York Times when they
    went through an investigation, they tried to followup on these
    unaccompanied children placed with sponsors and I believe the
    number is 85,000 cases and there was no answer. Does that
    concern you?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. If that was the only piece of information
    that identified whether or not a child was missing or not,
    maybe. But that's not the case. Calling a family and them not
    answering doesn't mean anything if they have eventually caught
    back up with the family in another way----
        Chair Cornyn. It means they don't know--you don't know
    about the welfare of that child.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. No, it doesn't, not at all. It's one data
    point in a much more elaborate set of contact.
        Chair Cornyn. So you call the house to check on the welfare
    of the child and nobody answers and that's not a concern of
    yours?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Let's say you call the house to check on
    the child and nobody answers. If you do it again, and you do it
    again, and you do it again as they would in the child welfare
    system. The first call, which is all that we're talking about,
    is not the only way that they are in contact with.
        Chair Cornyn. So you think losing each is okay? You don't.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. I don't think they're lost--I don't think
    they're lost. No. Senator.
        Chair Cornyn. How do you know--how do you know what's
    happened to them? Nobody is answering the phone. Let me turn to
    you, Chief Clem. And Ms. Hopper, do you think it's a problem to
    place these children with sponsors in a home where you don't
    know who else is living in the household, Ms. Hopper?
        Ms. Hopper. It absolutely is. And when Ms. Giovagnoli
    mentioned the phone calls, there were two phone calls. And when
    Senator Moody mentioned that State agencies were trying to do
    welfare checks on the children sent to Florida, DCF Director,
    Shevaun Harris, came here, sat at this table last year in a
    Senate round table and said that State agencies were being
    stonewalled from receiving the information of these sponsors
    and where they were sent. So State agencies could not conduct
    welfare checks.
        Why would Federal agencies stonewall State agencies from
    conducting welfare checks to ensure the welfare and the well-
    being of a child in their State?
        Chair Cornyn. Chief Clem, do you agree with Ms. Hopper?
        Mr. Clem. I agree, putting my law enforcement hat on, that
    is always my concern, knowing what is happening at the border,
    the fact that there is so much trafficking and transnational
    criminal organizations have their hands in everything to put
    the well-being of this child as a priority, we have to
    followup. We have to know who is in that household.
        We need to know the background checks of all those. So yes,
    the first call needs to be followed up with a knock on the door
    and if necessary, a kick in the door to find out if these kids
    are there and if they're taken care of.
        Chair Cornyn. Well, my friend and colleague, Senator
    Padilla mentioned root causes. So the Border Patrol, I've
    learned everything I know about the border from the Border
    Patrol in my State and elsewhere. And what they've told me is
    that there are things called push factors and pull factors. In
    other words, the push factors are things you would expect,
    poverty, violence, maybe a desire for a better life, something
    we can all identify with. But the pull factor is what is the
    reward being given to somebody who comes to the country outside
    of legal channels?
        And do you believe the pull factors during the last 4
    years, during the preceding administration were significant
    influence on the number and the volume of unaccompanied
    children that made their way to the border? And as we know,
    there were half a million of them?
        Mr. Clem. Yes, that's exactly my experience from day one in
    the Border Patrol to the time I retired. When we have policies
    that incentivize, a catch and release or a quick release into
    the country, that is a pull factor. It's what I mentioned
    earlier, that the transnational criminal organizations are
    watching and listening to everything we say. So, they're
    changing their business model on what we're doing here.
        So, when we stand strong and enforce the law and hold
    people accountable and give consequences, we see that reduction
    at the border and the numbers show that. When we don't, when we
    overcrowd facilities, when we catch and release, when we do not
    do what's best in the child's interest, at least outwardly
    facing that incentivized, that becomes a pull factor.
        And we've seen that play time and time again throughout my
    career.
        Chair Cornyn. So, if you're truly concerned about the
    welfare of these children, it strikes me as one of the most
    important things you can do is enforce the law, secure the
    border, and discourage people from coming in the first place.
        Mr. Clem. I agree. And that's what we're doing right now as
    I mentioned in my opening statement, how we have special agents
    responding to the field where these encounters are happening to
    make sure that we can mitigate any criminal activity right then
    and there. So we can start right off the bat that we are
    reducing the likelihood of this child being trafficked and
    placed them in harm's way when they're ultimately released from
    ORR or if we are able to repatriate them back to their country.
    That's what law enforcement does.
        Chair Cornyn. Thank you. Senator Padilla.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. A couple of followup
    questions for Ms. Giovagnoli before I ask about post release
    services. So, let's put a pin in that. I'll come back to that
    in a minute here but I want to afford you an opportunity to
    further respond to a couple of issues that have come up
    previously by some of my colleagues.
        Number one, the value and importance of access to Counsel
    for unaccompanied children. Number two, anything further to add
    on this as we recognize, unwillingness or reluctance sometimes
    on the part of a parent or a sponsor to engage in this process.
    Generally, but also what that means for the accuracy and value
    of underlying data as a result.
        I mean, the one example you kept pointing to, just because
    the first call doesn't get answered, it doesn't mean that a
    second or third call may not. There's a lot more to it than
    that. And third, just from a governance and oversight
    standpoint, the distinction between an ombuds person and an
    inspector general--pluses and minuses in the value of an ombuds
    office as no longer exists.
        I know those are three big ones before I get to my post
    release services question, those are in any particular order.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Those are three big ones. Let me work
    backward. The Ombuds office still has staff. We have a deputy
    but it has been seriously curtailed by the HHS administration.
    And it is not allowed to do the kind of oversight, the kind of
    visits, the kind of investigations that we had envisioned. I
    think that's critical. Anyone that is calling on more
    investigation into when things go wrong should recognize that
    accountability starts at that basic level of an Ombuds Office
    that can pick up the questions when they first come up,
    whatever they are. And in fact, even though I was in the Trump
    Administration for the first month, at least not once was I
    ever invited or asked to participate in any of the meetings
    that were taking place about the new vetting or any of these
    other programs. So, I have no idea what was actually going on
    in that room, but it wasn't transparent.
        Senator Padilla. And pardon the interruption here but does
    the apparent change in mission or priority combined with the
    reduction in resource help or hurt the cause of addressing the
    concern of unaccompanied children?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. It hurts it, of course. You asked me
    several questions and I got so riled up on that last one that
    I've now forgotten.
        Senator Padilla. Access to Counsel, importance value, of
    course, access to Counsel or reduce access to Counsel for
    unaccompanied children.
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Well, I think that one of the unfortunate
    things about the discussion so far today has been that we have
    focused so much on the very tragic situations and which should
    never happen. No child should be subject to this kind of harm
    and abuse ever. But we neglect to mention that there are
    thousands and thousands and thousands of children who have
    become thriving, successful young adults because they were
    given the opportunity to be protected in the United States. I
    used to work at Kids in Need of Defense and legal services
    organization that represented thousands of children over the
    years who are now contributing to the United States in
    wonderful ways. And that in and of itself should identify the
    importance of having representation. As Senator Hirono says,
    there is a higher likelihood that a child will receive some
    type of protection in the United States because there is an
    attorney.
        And that's because immigration law is so incredibly
    complicated and asylum, and trafficking protections and all the
    different kinds of things that a child might be eligible for
    are extremely complex, difficult things to do that a child on
    their own simply can't. They don't know the legal standard, let
    alone have probably the developmental ability to be able to
    articulate everything that's happened to them without guidance.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you. And the third was, any further
    comment on the willingness versus reluctance of a parent to a
    sponsor to field the phone call or otherwise?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Yes. Absolutely, there's no question that
    the more that ICE becomes the face of child protection in the
    United States, the more it is that parents and sponsors are
    going to be reluctant to participate. And I should note that
    the Inspector General's report that listed the 291,000 NTAs
    that ICE did not issue. It was not a report that was talking
    about HHS, it was talking about ICE failures to communicate
    with HHS. It was talking about ICE failures to not followup,
    even though the Biden Administration's legal advisor for ICE
    had set up a protocol for looking for children, say, who had
    not appeared in court.
        So, there are many, many--as I always used to tell my
    staff, there's never two sides to a story. There's five or six
    or seven and I'm afraid that we've really only seen maybe one
    and a half sides today.
        Senator Padilla. Okay. Thank you for that. And now finally,
    my post release services question. I have additional ones. I'm
    mindful of the time of day. I can submit some for questions for
    the record. But on this point, which I think is important to
    cover today, before an unaccompanied child is placed with a
    sponsor, the Office of Refugees Resettlement, ORR must, at a
    minimum determine that the sponsor is ``Capable of providing
    for the child's physical and mental well-being?''
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Yes.
        Senator Padilla. ``Once placed, ORR's post-release services
    can be crucial in ensuring the well-being of an unaccompanied
    children as they integrate into communities.'' So my question,
    in an ideal world should all children receive post release
    services and how do these services work in conjunction with the
    vetting that happened prior to the placement to protect
    children from exploitation or trafficking?
        Ms. Giovagnoli. Yes, in an ideal world, they should receive
    those kinds of services. Post release services provide
    opportunities to help with adjustment to the community. So,
    enrolling in school, identifying mental or physical health
    issues that may not have been apparent or develop after the
    fact. Many of these children, as everyone has said, have
    suffered some serious trauma. Some of them are victims of
    trafficking. Some of those things do not emerge in the time
    that they're in custody. It's only when they meet with someone
    that they trust that they start to tell their real stories.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you.
        Chair Cornyn. The grand jury report that Senator Moody was
    referring to dated March 30, 2023 will be made part of the
    record without objection. So the record will stay open for 1
    week for Members to submit additional questions. So, you may be
    hearing from Members of the Committee and we'd appreciate your
    attention to those and prompt response if you do get those. And
    with that thank you for being here.
        Senator Padilla. Mr. Chair, if I may for----
        Chair Cornyn. Sure.
        Senator Padilla. In closing, just a few thoughts and
    remarks. First, I would move to enter into a number of
    statements into the record including the statement from Kids in
    Need of Defense, the statement from the Acacia Center for
    Justice, the statement from the American Pediatric Association,
    and the statement from the American Psychological Association
    of Services.
        And I just want to thank the witnesses for your time and
    your participation today. I think we should all agree that we
    want to ensure the safety and well-being of unaccompanied
    children just as a human concern while we struggle to modernize
    our immigration system as a whole. It saddens me that we have
    not made the progress in the last 8 months, the last 4 years,
    et cetera, that we should have.
        But we have an obligation to put aside some political
    theater and conduct true oversight of the disturbing
    allegations sent to us by whistleblowers, not just to look back
    to the prior administration. Let's look at what's happening as
    we speak. We have an obligation, therefore, to also ask the
    Trump Administration tough questions and demand transparency.
        We need to do more to ensure that children are not
    needlessly separated from their parents. We need to do better
    to account for parents or sponsors sometimes reluctant or fear
    of participating in the process in a dynamic that Senator
    Durbin has articulated. I do believe it is possible, in fact,
    it's imperative that we balance being protective without
    keeping kids in custody for overly extended periods of time,
    which does tend to cause them harm as well.
        It's a delicate balance but a necessary balance. And at the
    very least, we need to make sure that these children have
    access to the services and the support that they need,
    including access to Counsel as Senator Hirono has championed,
    along with the post release services that we just discussed.
    All in an effort to keep them safe able when they're released
    to vetted sponsors. After all, these are children, they're
    minors.
        In some cases, preschoolers, not unlike those being
    portrayed in the chart behind me, that the Administration is
    currently forcing to go into immigration court alone. So, Mr.
    Chair, I again ask that you join me in calling for that
    accountability. We are the Committee of Jurisdiction, so let's
    hold an oversight hearing. Let's go to one of these shelters
    and see what's really happening to children currently and what
    conditions are being held on today.
        [Poster is displayed.]
        And last, a comment or a response to a comment that I heard
    earlier about the worst among us. As you've heard me say
    repeatedly, Mr. Chairman, all year long, if this Administration
    was truly only targeting the `` Worst among us,'' the
    dangerous, violent criminals that they like to talk about so
    very often, there would be no debate, there would be no
    discussion. But ICE's data, the Department of Homeland
    Securities data, has shown what we have believed all along. The
    vast majority of people being detained, being arrested, many
    being deported even without due process, are not the dangerous
    violent criminals, the convicted criminals that they speak of.
        There are people who happen to be undocumented for a number
    of reasons. Maybe they were here initially lawfully because of
    TPS and that has been taken away from them by this President.
    Maybe they came initially lawfully on a VISA of some sort and
    have overstayed that VISA. That doesn't mean that they came
    here unlawfully but they now find themselves in that category.
        And yes, some that did come unlawfully but have no criminal
    convictions on their record. But many work in industries that
    our Federal Government deems is essential. Whether it's in
    construction, whether it's in agriculture, whether it's in
    hospitality or healthcare or otherwise, they deserve better
    than to live in fear of deportation.
        They are not the dangerous, violent criminals that this
    Administration likes to talk about. That is the reality of the
    times that we're living in. We can and must do better. And this
    is the Committee of Jurisdiction. I look forward to working
    with you, Mr. Chairman, to tackle these problems with serious
    constructive engagement. And I thank you for the hearing today.
        Chair Cornyn. One final unanimous consent request. We have
    examples of bills or amendments containing text designed to fix
    the loophole in the TVPRA UAC loophole, which will be made part
    of the record, without objection.
        Chair Cornyn. Thank you all for being here. The hearing is
    now adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 3:56 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
        [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                A P P E N D I X

    The following submissions are available at:

      https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-119shrg62654/pdf/CHRG-
        119shrg
        62654-add1.pdf

    Submitted by Chair Cornyn:

     Alone and Exploited, Migrant Children Work Brutal Jobs Across the
        U.S.-The New York Times, article..............................     2

     As Migrant Children Were Put to Work, U.S. Ignored Warnings-The
        New York Times, article.......................................    24

     For migrant girls, new lives in U.S. bring risk of sexual abuse,
        The Atlanta Journal Constitution, article.....................    43

     UAC Hearing-Examples of Bills....................................    57

    Submitted by Ranking Member Padilla:

     Acacia Center for Justice, statement.............................    59

     Academic Pediatric Association, American Academy of Pediatrics,
        American Pediatric Society, Association of Medical School
        Pediatric Department Chairs, National Association of Pediatric
        Nurse Practitioners, Pediatric Policy Council, Society for
        Adolescent Health and Medicine, Society for Pediatric
        Research, letter..............................................    69

     American Psychological Association Services (APAS), letter.......    74

     Government Accountability Project, Protected Whistleblower
        Disclosure, statement.........................................    76

     Kids in Need of Defense (KIND), statement........................    78

     Padilla and Durbin, Call for Oversight Hearings, After
        Whistleblower Report Alleges Trump Admin Lied About Safety of
        Unaccompanied Guatemalan Children to Deport Them, The
        Washington Post, article......................................    86

     Psychiatry Online, article.......................................    88

     Trump's mass deportations bring a new wave of family separations,
        article.......................................................    99

     Whistleblower Account Contradicts Government's Claims on
        Guatemalan Children, The New York Times, article..............   106

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