    [Senate Hearing 119-250]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 119-250

                      TRUMP'S REGULATORY ROLLBACK: SAVING
                       AMERICANS $907 BILLION AND COUNTING
    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                              AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                                     OF THE

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               NOVEMBER 19, 2025

                                   __________

          Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and
                                Entrepreneurship

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    62-295                      WASHINGTON : 2026
    =======================================================================

                COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                  ----------

                            JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair
                EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    RAND PAUL, Kentucky                  JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
    TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            COREY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
    TODD YOUNG, Indiana                  CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    TED BUDD, North Carolina             JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
    JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
    JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
    JON HUSTED, Ohio

                    Meredith West, Republican Staff Director
                     Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               NOVEMBER 19, 2025
                               Opening Statements

                                                                       Page
    Joni Ernst, United States Senator from Iowa......................     1

                                    Witness

    The Honorable Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel for Advocacy, U.S.
      Small Business Administration, Washington, DC..................     3
        Prepared Statement...........................................     6

                  Additional Letters/Statements for the Record

    Unted States Chamber of Commerce
        Letter Dated November 19, 2025...............................    30

                            Questions for the Record

    The Honorable Casey B. Mulligan
        Responses to questions submitted by Ranking Member Markey....    32

    TRUMP'S REGULATORY ROLLBACK: SAVING AMERICANS $907 BILLION AND COUNTING

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2025

                          United States Senate,
                            Committee on Small Business
                                          and Entrepreneurship,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:33 p.m., in
    Room 428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst,
    chairwoman of the committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Ernst [presiding], Young, Hawley, Booker,
    and Hirono.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST

        Chair. I call the Committee on Small Business and
    Entrepreneurship to order. As I travel from river to river
    across Iowa, I hear from small businesses about the consistent
    thorn in their side, which is overregulation. In fact, when
    asked about federal regulations, Iowans consistently tell me to
    bring back a simple message to Washington bureaucrats; stay out
    of our way.
        For a small business, regulatory compliance is more than
    just a headache. It's wasted time and money they'd rather put
    back into their businesses. It forces folks to jump through
    hoops designed by people who have never run a payroll, or had
    to scramble to keep their doors open and their lights on.
        In Iowa, most entrepreneurs do not have extra folks on hand
    dedicated to compliance, or a legal team to comply with
    regulations designed for large corporations, not to mention the
    endless time and money to fight Uncle Sam if they miss one
    small paperwork requirement.
        Unfortunately, during the previous administration, federal
    bureaucrats ignored the resources and bandwidth of our small
    businesses. During the Biden administration, a record
    shattering 107,262 pages of rules were added to the Federal
    Register, which cost an estimated $1.8 trillion, with a T,
    trillion dollars, and added 256 million hours of paperwork onto
    the plates of small business owners.
        During President Biden's last year in office alone, his
    administration issued over 3,000 final rules. The regulatory
    costs of the Biden administration's reckless rulemaking were
    more than 15 times higher than President Trump's first term,
    and over three times higher than of Barack Obama's entire
    presidency.
        The massive mountain of paperwork hours due to bureaucratic
    red tape cuts into small businesses, bottom lines. It slows job
    creation and balloons compliance costs. It's simply bad for
    business.
        Since January, the Trump administration has published $702
    billion in total regulatory cost savings, and cut 72.1 million
    hours of paperwork, altogether, with additional deregulatory
    efforts. These actions so far could save American taxpayers up
    to $907 billion. And I know these savings will only grow as
    small businesses recover from the previous administration's
    regulatory onslaught. The Trump administration is hard at work
    making sure agencies delete, revoke, and rescind the harmful
    regulations of previous administrations.
        I've been pleased to work with Administrator Zeldin to help
    bring common sense back to the Environmental Protection Agency,
    where the Trump EPA has been especially busy. Just this week,
    the EPA proposed an updated Waters of the United States, or
    WOTUS Rule, to clarify what is covered by WOTUS. This proposed
    rule follows my Clean Waters Act, which would codify that
    groundwater and waste treatment systems are not navigable
    waters, and end this government overreach for our farmers,
    landowners, and small businesses.
        I am also glad that the EPA is working to overturn the
    agency's harmful Obama-era Endangerment Finding, which allowed
    far left administrations to pave the way for EV mandates and
    Green New Deal policies. The Trump EPA estimates that the
    Endangerment Finding has been used to justify over $1 trillion
    in hidden taxes on small businesses and American families.
    Revoking that finding would save Americans $54 billion
    annually.
        Today, our committee will hear from Chief Counsel for
    Advocacy, Dr. Casey Mulligan. In any administration, the Office
    of Advocacy is a valuable counterweight to the sprawling
    bureaucratic mess that regulations create for small businesses.
        Dr. Mulligan, thank you so much for your steadfast
    commitment to identifying regulatory pain points that make it
    difficult for small businesses to grow. It has been a personal
    mission of mine to end the red tape nightmare that has
    tormented our small business owners.
        And earlier this year, I reintroduced the PROVE IT Act. My
    bill requires agencies to consider both the direct and indirect
    costs for small businesses before finalizing regulations. It
    requires Advocacy to formally review federal agency
    certification of rules, and prove that the federal government
    is fully compliant with existing law, and it gives small
    businesses a voice in the rulemaking process to shift the
    balance of power away from the administrative state and back
    onto the Main Street.
        I also introduced the RED TAPE Act, earlier this year, to
    expose the true price tag of Washington's red tape and end
    Biden shady circular, A-4 scheme used to conceal the cost of
    federal regulations. Just a few weeks later, President Trump
    issued Executive Order 14192, which mirrored my legislation and
    formally rescinded the Biden-era guidance. This sort of common-
    sense legislation along with the deregulatory action of this
    administration will truly lead to a golden age for America's
    small business.
        I look forward to hearing from Dr. Mulligan today about
    further ways we can work together to reduce regulatory burdens
    on small firms. Ranking Member Markey is unable to make it
    today, so we will go ahead, and we will start then with your
    statement. So, you, Dr. Mulligan, are recognized. I'll give you
    an introduction first, but then, you will have five minutes for
    your opening statements.
        And again, I would like to extend a warm welcome today to
    our witness, Dr. Casey Mulligan. I'm thankful that you took the
    time out of your busy schedule to be here with us, and I think
    it looks like it might be a quick hearing today. We will have
    members come and go throughout the day, but the committee is
    excited to hear about the work of the Office of Advocacy, and
    your work to limit the regulatory burdens on small businesses
    since your confirmation.
        In August, Dr. Mulligan was confirmed by the Senate, and
    currently serves as the SBA's Chief Counsel for Advocacy. Prior
    to this, he was a professor at the University of Chicago,
    specializing in labor economics, public policy, and the impacts
    of regulation on economic behavior.
        During the first Trump administration, he served as chief
    economist for the White House Council of Economic Advisors. Dr.
    Mulligan received his Bachelor of Arts from Harvard University,
    and earned his Ph.D. in economics from the University of
    Chicago.
        I ask unanimous consent that Dr. Mulligan's full statement
    be included in the record. And without objection, it is so
    ordered. And with that, Dr. Mulligan, you're recognized for
    five minutes for your testimony. You may begin.

    STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CASEY B. MULLIGAN, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR
      ADVOCACY, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, DC

        Dr. Mulligan. Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, and
    members of the committee, I'm honored to discuss with you the
    small business effects of President Trump's regulatory agenda.
    My testimony does not necessarily reflect the views of the
    administration or of the SBA.
        Before I begin, I would like to thank the committee for
    supporting my nomination to this position of Chief Counsel, and
    I look forward to working with you to support America's small
    businesses.
        The Biden administration finalized 12,000 rules that would
    cost almost $6 trillion. Against that backdrop, President Trump
    was elected to stop, and I quote him, ``ever expanding morass
    of complicated federal regulation.'' He directed agencies to
    identify regulations that impose undue burdens on small
    businesses.
        Advocacy is well positioned to help agencies follow in that
    direction. During my nomination hearing, I committed to
    prioritizing meeting small businesses where they are, and I
    have done so in person, in Iowa even, together with our
    regional advocates who every day gather small business
    perspectives nationwide and bring them into policy discussions
    here in Washington.
        For years, small businesses burdened by regulations
    remained silent, fearing retaliation. Now, they tell Advocacy
    that this administration is the first to listen and to
    understand. One even said that Advocacy quite literally saved
    Christmas, as agencies have been seeking comment on candidates
    for deregulation.
        My office has flagged roughly 300 issues, particularly
    those giving large organizations an artificial advantage over
    small ones. One example is the Outpatient Prospective Payment
    System, which pays hospitals more for identical services than
    it pays independent physicians.
        The Trump administration has already delivered substantial
    regulatory relief for small businesses. For example, the One
    Big Beautiful Bill zeroed out the penalty on auto manufacturers
    that fail to achieve Biden's impossible fuel economy standards.
    With approximately 14 million Schedule C businesses owning
    vehicles, that change alone positioned small entities to save
    tens of billions of dollars.
        In addition, President Trump and Congress removed 16
    regulations this year by way of the Congressional Review Act.
    More rule changes are on the way. Among roughly 60 economically
    significant rules so far, the largest savings likely come from
    the rule that the chair mentioned, which is to stop greenhouse
    gas regulations of vehicles. Without that action, vehicle
    quality would've fallen and prices risen, costing small
    businesses about half a trillion dollars.
        Another rule flagged by small businesses is the proposed
    OSHA Heat rule. It would impose sweeping one-size-fits-all, and
    often absurd requirements, on workplaces where heat is above
    certain temperatures. During a meeting with Advocacy, an
    Arizona watermelon farmer explained that the rule would require
    shade structures even though harvesting occurs at night when
    there's no sun to be shaded.
        In contrast, well-designed deregulation increases
    competition and productivity. President Trump's first term was
    a case in point. Prescription drug prices fell for the first
    time in decades. Deregulation sharply reduced internet access
    prices. And that's all about the competition channel that we
    see in the Regulatory Flexibility Act.
        While regulators are quick to sanction businesses when they
    violate the requirements, they often fail to follow the rules
    Congress set. A particularly frequent practice has been to
    unlawfully certify important rules as not having a significant
    economic impact on a substantial number of small entities. Such
    certifications are a pathway to capricious enforcement actions.
        In Orwellian fashion, 65 percent of the major rules from
    the Biden administration were nonetheless said to lack
    significant effects on small businesses or otherwise not
    require any consideration of those effects. Small businesses
    were saddled with at least a hundred billion in costs without
    any acknowledgement that there were costs.
        President Trump's Restoring Gold Standard Science Executive
    Order initiates additional reforms that small entities have
    long sought: decisions that rest on transparent data and
    reproducible methods. For example, independent fishermen find
    the modeling of fisheries by the Biden administration to be
    outdated and contrary to the Magnuson-Stevens Act. Among other
    things, they point to Georges Bank where closures aimed at
    protecting groundfish also stopped scallop harvest, leaving an
    estimated $52 million in annual scallops to die off
    unharvested.
        Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As Chief
    Counsel, I will continue to listen and to work toward better
    policy for all small businesses. And I would be happy to answer
    questions.
        [The prepared statement of Dr. Mulligan follows.]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Chair. Wonderful. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan. And we'll begin
    the questioning round, and I will recognize myself for five
    minutes for questions.
        So, Dr. Mulligan, the cost of living and affordability for
    Americans, including our small businesses, has been top of mind
    for President Trump in the first year of his second term.
    Overregulation makes it difficult for small firms to stay in
    business, and it also hurts every American family struggling
    with the cost of childcare, home heating, and electricity, and
    housing affordability.
        With the holidays around the corner, how has deregulation
    made everyday items more affordable for our American families?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. And the answer
    is much anticipated in the Regulatory Flexibility Act. It
    points to two issues with regulatory overreach. One, is by
    discouraging the smaller companies from entering the market.
    There's less competition, and those bigger companies who are
    still there are free to charge quite a bit.
        The other channel is productivity. We ended up using more
    resources to do the same amount because of the extra paperwork
    and extra compliance. So, electricity, for example, we need
    more resources to make the same electricity, which means higher
    electricity prices for people. We've seen that throughout the
    energy area in the last four years. Delivering energy to our
    consumers has been quite difficult.
        Chair. Good. And I appreciate that, and the fact that we
    are trying to drive those costs down. And it's just common-
    sense measures that this administration is taking.
        So, Dr. Mulligan, as your testimony had pointed out, small
    businesses across Iowa and America are hurting due to the
    compliance costs that Washington bureaucrats don't even think
    twice about. For our small business owners, extra paperwork
    means less time actually working to grow their businesses.
        And as you know, as I discussed earlier, I've introduced
    the PROVE IT Act to make bureaucrats prove that those proposed
    rules do not harm small businesses. And it gives Advocacy
    further tools to enforce their mission, and to ensure small
    businesses are considered in the rulemaking process.
        How would the tools given to your office in the PROVE IT
    Act allow you to better interact with your federal partners,
    and what legislative authority would you still need?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. My experience so
    far in the Trump administration, which has just been a few
    months, they're extremely supportive of Advocacy and the small
    businesses. They're coming to me quite often asking, ``What can
    we do to make the rules better for small businesses?''
        But President Trump won't always be our President. And then
    what happens after that? And I think legislation would be quite
    helpful to stop the practice that we saw so much in the last
    four years of saying that a regulation is not meaningful for
    the small businesses, when in fact, it's quite meaningful and
    can sometimes put them out of business.
        Chair. Yes, we've seen that a lot through the years, and
    hopefully, we'll be able to get the PROVE IT Act across the
    finish line. That is definitely a goal of mine.
        Recently, the CFPB released a proposed rule regarding small
    business lending. And just this week, the EPA released a new
    proposed WOTUS rule. How do these new rules compare to their
    predecessors in terms of their impact on small businesses?
        Dr. Mulligan. Both of those rules, when they came out
    before this administration, they were adding costs, as we heard
    in my office about those costs. And the new rules, they're in
    the proposed stage. They're largely set to reverse what was
    done. And during the process, I've seen in, even in preparing
    the proposed rules, there was a lot of listening to small
    businesses, and those agencies told us, ``Wow we were glad to
    hear from them because we were able to make a better proposed
    rule based on the wisdom that they heard from outside the
    Beltway.
        Chair. That is good. And I'll just share a very abbreviated
    story, but also when it came to farmers under the Biden WOTUS
    rule, if a farmer who had not tilled his field for a while, if
    he decided to farm that land again, there was additional cost
    because that farmer was fined hundreds of thousands of dollars
    for disturbing the land that he owned and intended to farm.
        So, not only is there a cost of regulation and adhering to
    that regulation, but then there's the government overreach
    where you can also be fined for simply doing your normal day-
    to-day activities as a small business owner, which are farmers
    or small business owners.
        So, my time is expired. We'll come back for additional
    questions, but at this point, I will recognize the Senator from
    Hawaii, Senator Hirono, for five minutes.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, you are the
    advocate, I suppose, for small businesses, right? You the
    counsel. So, as I talk with small businesses in my state, the
    biggest thing that they are concerned about right now are the
    President's tariffs. But you're not talking about the tariffs
    as increasing costs for small businesses in your testimony. Why
    not?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I think the
    tariffs you're referring to came out around April 1st, and----
        Senator Hirono. Well, the President's tariffs, they come
    and they go. There's a certain unpredictableness about it, and
    that that's another reason that small businesses are concerned,
    and that there have already been billions of dollars in
    payments that businesses have had to make. And by the way, so
    can you answer my question? Why aren't you talking about
    tariffs as being a cost driver for small businesses?
        Dr. Mulligan. Advocacy doesn't make the rules about tariffs
    or anything else. We have two things we do. Number one, we
    listen----
        Senator Hirono. But excuse me, your job is to, did you just
    say, listen to small businesses and address their concerns,
    their concern being impact of the tariffs?
        Dr. Mulligan. One way. Number two, make sure those people
    who do make the policy are aware of those concerns. And my
    position is subject to Senate confirmation, even though the
    President was incredibly quick to get me nominated, and the
    chair of this committee was incredibly quick to get the hearing
    going. Somehow, the Senate did not finish the job until well
    after the trade policies were initiated. So, the chief counsel
    chair at those policy discussions was empty.
        Senator Hirono. You are avoiding answering my question, you
    know, that President Trump has imposed tariffs in April. And
    then, as I said, they come and go. And my question to you is,
    knowing that these tariffs are very detrimental in raising
    costs for small businesses, why aren't you talking about
    tariffs in your testimony?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. My job is to
    listen to the small businesses, and to communicate to those who
    do make the policies their concerns. Right on the heels of----
        Senator Hirono. And so, did you tell the people who are
    making these policy decisions that the tariffs are hurting
    small businesses?
        Dr. Mulligan. Let me explain to you how that worked. On the
    heels of my confirmation, the government was shut down. So,
    while I was able to listen--thank you, Congress, for the
    excellent funding you gave my office so we could stay open. I
    was listening like crazy, but it was not until the government
    reopened.
        And let me tell you, last Wednesday, government was still
    closed. The White House called me at 8:00 p.m. and they said,
    ``Casey, get over here. The government's open tomorrow. The
    agencies need to hear what the small businesses are telling
    you.''
        And I went there, and I sat close to----
        Senator Hirono. If I look a little frustrated, that's
    because I am. You wrote in your book, ``Tariffs are taxes on
    small businesses.'' And wouldn't taxes on small businesses hurt
    small businesses? So, you don't need to be confirmed, or talk
    to them, or whatever. You've written about it. So, why is it
    that we can't hear what you're going to do to help small
    businesses deal with this on again, off again, tariff
    situation.
        By the way, I've talked to small businesses in Hawaii, and
    anybody who imports anything, any part of a product that the
    Hawaii businesses sell, and that goes for small businesses all
    across the country, are having to pay higher costs.
        So, there's a chip maker in Hawaii, for example, he gets
    some of his packaging from China. He's had to pay more for his
    product, which are chips. So, there is no question that these
    tariffs that Trump tariffs are hurting small businesses. And
    yet, you're not here to tell us about how that is impacting
    small businesses. And not to mention, I would like to ask you,
    are tariffs taxes? Yes or no?
        Dr. Mulligan. I just wasn't able to finish answering your
    question, which is what am I telling Trump people about the
    tariffs.
        Senator Hirono. I'm moving on----
        Dr. Mulligan. I'm in the middle of telling that----
        Senator Hirono. I'm moving on to ask you; are tariffs
    taxes?
        Dr. Mulligan. President Trump campaigned on changing the
    composition of revenue----
        Senator Hirono. Are tariffs taxes?
        Dr. Mulligan. They're a source of revenue.
        Senator Hirono. Are tariffs taxes? Why aren't you answering
    the question? You said so in your book that tariffs are taxes.
        Madam Chair, I don't know why our witness, the single
    witness we have, who's supposed to be talking about impacts on
    small businesses and how we can be of help, and the biggest
    impact that they're having to face right now are the tariffs,
    and we have a witness who's not responding to my questions. I
    thank you very much.
        Chair. Thank you, Senator. And I would also respond that.
    What the Trump administration is doing by releasing some of the
    overreach from the federal government on those small
    businesses, it has created some equilibrium to any hurt that
    small businesses may be feeling.
        So, this is something that we can do for the long run,
    though, is undo the pain of the pressure from some of these
    regulations that are fine for larger corporations, but
    certainly do hurt those smaller businesses. So, I appreciate
    that.
        And I would also recommend that the members of the
    committee, also, should be the ones advocating for their small
    businesses and reaching out. If they feel that there is a
    concern from small businesses, they should take that to the
    administration. So, I know I certainly do. I have those
    conversations with the President and the administration.
        And, Senator Booker, thank you so much. If you would go
    ahead and direct your questions to the witness, you are
    recognized for five minutes.
        Senator Booker. Chairwoman, I really appreciate you. Thank
    you for having this hearing. Gives us an opportunity to have a
    conversation.
        Mr. Mulligan, I crisscross my state and really am
    interested in the success of small businesses. They are the top
    job givers in our state and job providers. It's extraordinary
    to see these entrepreneurs who risk their capital, and make
    serious investments in not just the success of their
    businesses, but as you know, small businesses radiate into our
    communities or are part of the fabric of our towns, especially
    a state like New Jersey, which is runs on our small towns.
        One of my biggest concerns I hear from my small businesses
    right now is just healthcare. They're getting really stuck
    pretty badly with healthcare costs. Congress did sweeping cuts
    to the federal healthcare funding programs, and has really
    given tax cuts not to some of the small businesses, but seen a
    lot of them manure to the benefit of the wealthiest there are.
        And so, the CBO, which is the non-partisan Congressional
    Budget Office, as you know, estimates the healthcare provisions
    in that bill will increase our deficit by $907 billion from
    2025 to 2034. And the increases, the number of uninsured
    Americans, by 10 million by 2034, and additional 4.2 million
    will lose their Marketplace coverage because the law failed to
    extend the tax credit enhancements, which lower annual premiums
    by more than $700 on average for people who receive them
    simultaneously.
        The small business businesses with the Affordable Care Act
    are facing premium increases of about, on average, 11 percent
    for 2026, according to an analysis of premium preliminary rate
    filings from 318 insurers across all 50 states.
        And so, when I just finished crisscrossing my state, having
    town halls, I was stunned. I thought we were going to be
    talking about other issues, but small business after small
    business talked to me about literally the impossibility of
    covering healthcare or even imagining trying to cover it for
    people to work for.
        I had one woman who has a flower business in my state who
    talked about not only will she have to forego health insurance,
    her and her husband, in order to keep it for their children,
    but having the challenges also of watching their employees who
    get it through the Marketplace have to lose their insurance as
    well.
        So, as the administration finalizes its regulations for the
    Trump tax bill, will you advocate for the small business owners
    whose prices are going up due to the administration's economic
    policies, or who will actually lose valuable employees, as some
    of the owners told me that are going to go to places where
    they're going to get health coverage because they can no longer
    afford it themselves?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. The short answer
    is yes. I listen to the small businesses, and then I report
    what I hear to those who make the rules, and around healthcare
    in this case. And like you, I hear a lot, and my staff hears a
    lot about healthcare. We have a letter on our website where
    we've gathered together, my count was 97 different healthcare
    issues, that we heard about from small businesses. And the cost
    of insurance is something that's often cited.
        One thing that's often cited is the pandemic emergency. We
    hear in so many different ways that rules that were put in
    place during the pandemic are still there and the pandemic
    emergency doesn't end. And that really undermines a number of
    healthcare----
        Senator Booker. I'm going to interrupt you because I got 90
    seconds. So, I get it. As a former mayor, the bureaucracy, the
    rules, all of these things, this is where I find a lot of
    agreement with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle.
    But the biggest issue, and I'm not overstating this at all, was
    the staggering premium cost, the staggering cost of people's
    healthcare.
        And you said, yes, I'll advocate for that. But I'm
    wondering specifically when you're saying on your own website,
    I think that you were mentioning you're having people bring
    this problem. I'm asking you then, what is the solution? What
    will you be specifically advocating for to deal with the number
    one issue?
        And it's anecdotal, but that I heard in county after county
    of New Jersey, meeting with small business people, thinking I
    was going to talk about other issues. But every conversation
    centered around this staggering cost of healthcare. And I'm
    wondering, you as a person that's in a very important position,
    what specifically is the solution, as you see it?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. We have 97
    specifics in the letter, but if I were to organize them, as we
    did in the beginning of that letter, really the Regulatory
    Flexibility Act principles apply very well to those 97, which
    is there are a lot of regulations that reduce competition in
    healthcare.
        And I mentioned in my opening statement things that
    increase the cost of healthcare by undermining independent
    physicians. And the other aspect is wasted resources. To
    deliver the same healthcare, we need more resources because of
    all the red tape.
        Senator Booker. And have you thought about the
    consequences? Because the immediacy of this, it starts at the
    end of the year, what are the consequences going to be for
    small businesses that see their costs going up tens of
    thousands of dollars; not being able to cover their families,
    or facing employees leaving? Have you thought about--because to
    me it seems like quite the tsunami that's about to hit small
    businesses with their costs going up 5 percent, 10 percent, 15
    percent just for health insurance alone.
        Dr. Mulligan. What we have been doing at my office, and
    I've been doing myself, is again, listening to what the small
    businesses have to say and the problems that they express.
        Senator Booker. But there's no--you have no immediate
    solution, in your mind, for in January?
        Dr. Mulligan. Well, I have 97 solutions that I heard from
    the small businesses. They're not from Casey Mulligan, they're
    from the small businesses. Some of them are immediate and
    others may take more time.
        Senator Booker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chair. Yes, thank you, Senator Booker. And I would say, as
    you pointed out, there are steep premium increases. So, just
    simply allowing subsidies to continue to flow doesn't bring the
    cost of healthcare down. So, I think this is something we all
    should be able to work on together; is figure out what is going
    on in healthcare that's driving those costs up, and how do we
    actually lower the cost of the healthcare so that it's just not
    significant premiums.
        So, I hope that we all can come together and figure that
    out because, yes, our small businesses need an option that is
    affordable and allows easy access to healthcare. So, thank you,
    God bless you. And Senator Hawley, you are recognized for five
    minutes.
        Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Dr.
    Mulligan, thank you for being here. Let me just start, if I
    could, by asking a little bit about rural businesses. This is
    something that I talked to the administrator about when she was
    here for her confirmation hearings.
        I was sort of surprised, fairly stunned actually, to see
    these numbers. The Biden administration's SBA spent in Fiscal
    Year 2024 alone, out of 103,000 loans, only 12,500 of them went
    to rural businesses. 12 percent of the $56 billion in capital
    last fiscal year, $6 billion went to rural businesses. That's
    less than 11 percent.
        My state is majority rural. We have many, many small
    businesses throughout the state that are located in rural
    areas. And, obviously, I think a key function of the small
    business administration is to protect and promote rural
    businesses. So, let me just ask, what office--what role,
    rather, does your office, the Office of Advocacy play in
    promoting rural small businesses?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. And we know from
    a lot of our analysis and visiting in person, small businesses
    are especially prominent in rural areas. And as I committed in
    my nomination hearing and I have done in person, is to go out
    and visit, go where they are. Don't ask them to come to
    Washington, go visit them.
        We even had an instance a month or two ago where it was
    such a remote area that my regional advocate took a mule for
    the last couple of miles. And we're really going to great
    lengths to hear from--in that case, it was ranchers. And the
    ranchers were thrilled that we were listening, and they were
    thrilled with the results that we're getting. And we came back
    to President Trump's team to start to improve some of that poor
    policy in the rural areas.
        Senator Hawley. What steps do you think can Congress take
    to ensure SBA prioritizes rural areas and rural businesses? Any
    recommendations you might have?
        Dr. Mulligan. Maybe I'd like to meet with my staff and get
    back to you. That's a serious ask, and I don't want to have a
    glib answer to that. Certainly, there is lots of room because a
    lot of our policies have not treated the rural areas well.
        Senator Hawley. Yeah, understood. And I certainly, agree
    with that, and I just want to point out that, you know,
    programs like the 7(a) Loans, the 504 Certified Development
    Company Loans, Disaster Recovery Assistance, these kinds of
    programs are absolutely vital to rural America, in general, and
    to rural businesses in particular. And they need support and
    advocacy from your office and, and across the agency.
        Let me just ask you for a second while I've got you here in
    my remaining time. Let's go back to talk a little bit about
    SBA's 8(a) Program. You're familiar with the 8(a) Program, Dr.
    Mulligan?
        Dr. Mulligan. Kelly Loeffler, that's her area. Now, any
    regulation that she puts out because she's subject to the
    Regulatory Flexibility Act, I would review, and again, hear
    from the small businesses and comment on that. So, I'm familiar
    with it from that perspective, but I'm not involved in making
    the 8(a) rules.
        Senator Hawley. Well, I guess my question is this. I mean,
    the 8(a) has been back in the news recently for reports of all
    kinds of corruption and waste of taxpayer dollars. You've got
    the most recent example, ATI Government Solutions, which is a
    technology services company, apparently that improperly, maybe
    fraudulently, claimed ownership Native American ownership to
    get 8(a) status, and has been exposed now for acting as a pass-
    through organization to take unfair advantage of this program.
        These things are happening. We're seeing these reports
    proliferate, and we don't have an Inspector General at SBA. So,
    I guess maybe my question should be, given what you just said a
    moment ago, I mean, do you think it's time that we get an
    Inspector General at SBA so that we're able to address these
    allegations or reports of fraud?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I have been
    frustrated in that Senate confirmation process on how long it
    took. It shouldn't take that long. And you're right, it's
    taking way too long for the SBA Inspector General.
        Senator Hawley. Yeah, I think so, too. Thank you, Madam
    Chair.
        Chair. Thank you so much. And I'll take five minutes
    additional for a few more questions. I really appreciate your
    time today, Dr. Mulligan.
        I do want to turn to the great work that you have been
    doing at the Office of Advocacy. You and your team have worked
    really hard to shed light on a lot of these hard-to-understand
    regulations. There's a lot on the books that are small
    businesses. They don't have the time to research. They don't
    have the time to understand. They don't have additional
    personnel to sort through all of that, and it costs them money.
        So, as you've traveled across the country, I know you've
    met with a lot of small businesses, you've had discussions with
    small firms. What is the top existing regulation that is
    currently negatively affecting small businesses that those of
    us here in Congress can actually grab a hold of, or even
    something that exists that the administration might be able to
    grab a hold of, and look at reforming or rolling back?
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. There are
    regulations in both categories, and in fact, working together
    like Congress did on the Congressional Review Act, that small
    businesses are very thankful for that. That gives them more
    durability and more certainty going forward.
        You know, a top one is a little bit hard. We just put on
    our website, advocacy.sba.gov, a most wanted list. And there's
    not just one on there, but it's a fairly short list. These are
    the ones we heard most from the small businesses. And often, in
    a dollar sense, they have costs well into the billions, just
    for one of the rules.
        The 2024 Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification is one
    that we hear a lot from small businesses that are involved or
    hope to be involved in contracting, the 2024 Heat rule,
    quarterly payroll filings. And believe it or not, 15 years on,
    the Obamacares employer mandate.
        Chair. I wish we had had that question just a little bit
    ago. So, yes, the mandate can be very, very costly, but I do
    hope that as a Congress or as an administration, that we can
    all work together to find some reasonable solutions to help our
    small businesses in all of those areas.
        So, following the bureaucratic nightmare created by the
    former administration, the Trump administration has been really
    working very hard to slash a lot of the regulations and red
    tape that are out there that affect small businesses, and make
    it cheaper and simpler for these small business owners to
    comply with federal regulations.
        And your office has been playing a key role in that fight.
    So, Dr. Mulligan, I intend to follow-up with, of course,
    perhaps a question for the record. But as the first confirmed
    Chief Counsel for Advocacy in a decade, and you noted that the
    seat had been vacant, but you are the first one in a decade,
    I'm confident that you have many well-informed ideas about how
    to strengthen and better that role for the benefit of all of
    our small businesses.
        So, if you would, briefly, because I only have a minute and
    a half left, just briefly describe what you've thought about
    any legislative changes that you would recommend that could be
    helpful to us, and in addition to the PROVE IT Act, of course,
    because I would like to see that over the finish line. But
    things that would allow us to be good champions for our small
    businesses.
        Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. One idea in the
    spirit of the PROVE IT Act would maybe to require that any
    major rule can't be certified without the Chief Counsel's
    approval. Let's stop the double-talk, the Orwellian
    doublespeak. That would be an idea.
        If you can, take a look at President Trump's budget, it's
    an excellent budget. But one of the things that it does is
    really support the Office of Advocacy to a much greater degree
    than the draft budget that came out of the House. So, if the
    Senate could look at that, that would also, I think, be
    helpful.
        Chair. Wonderful.
        Dr. Mulligan. And I know the small businesses are very
    appreciative of what Advocacy is able to do now that it has a
    Senate-confirmed leadership.
        Chair. I think that's great. And again, I'll reform this
    question. I'll submit it for a question for the record. And
    then, as you're hearing from some of those small businesses,
    you said you had 97 different ideas or suggestions that are out
    there or topics. Perhaps some of those might make its way here
    to the halls of Congress, and we could actually work on some
    solutions for those small businesses.
        So, I will stop the questions here, and do appreciate your
    time today. I thank you. I know it is a busy day on the Hill,
    but thank you for being here. I see that there are no further
    questions. So, again, thank you for joining us.
        I ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing
    remain open for two weeks for members to submit questions,
    revise, and extend their remarks, and submit additional
    information into the record.
        And without objection, it is so ordered.
        And with that, the Committee on Small Business and
    Entrepreneurship stands adjourned. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan.
        [Whereupon, at 3:14 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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