[Senate Hearing 119-217]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 119-217
NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK AND
THOMAS BELL
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL,
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, AND THOMAS BELL TO BE
INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND
HUMAN SERVICES
__________
NOVEMBER 19, 2025
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
62-165 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Chairman
RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin GARY C. PETERS, Michigan
JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma MAGGIE WOOD HASSAN, New Hampshire
RICK SCOTT, Florida RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
BERNIE MORENO, Ohio ANDY KIM, New Jersey
JONI ERNST, Iowa RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
ASHLEY MOODY, Florida ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan
William E. Henderson III, Staff Director
Christina N. Salazar, Chief Counsel
Andrew J. Hopkins, Counsel
Olivia Naughton, Professional Staff Member
David M. Weinberg, Minority Staff Director
Christopher J. Mulkins, Minority Director of Homeland Security
Claudine J. Brenner, Minority Senior Counsel
Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
Ashley A. Gonzalez, Records Clerk
C O N T E N T S
------
Opening statements:
Page
Senator Paul................................................. 1
Senator Peters............................................... 1
Senator Ernst................................................ 3
Senator Hassan............................................... 4
Senator Moody................................................ 6
Senator Blumenthal........................................... 11
Senator Hawley............................................... 13
Prepared statements:
Senator Peters............................................... 15
WITNESSES
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2025
John Walk to be Inspector General, U.S. Department of Agriculture
Prepared statement........................................... 17
Biographical and professional information.................... 19
Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics................. 39
Responses to post-hearing questions.......................... 42
Thomas Bell to be Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health
and Human Services
Prepared statement........................................... 51
Biographical and professional information.................... 53
Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics................. 64
Responses to post-hearing questions.......................... 67
APPENDIX
The picture submitted by Senator Ernst........................... 73
Senator Fetterman's documents submitted to USDA.................. 74
NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK AND
THOMAS BELL
----------
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2025
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Rand Paul,
Chair of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Paul [presiding], Hawley, Ernst, Moody,
Peters, Hassan, and Blumenthal.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PAUL
Chairman Paul. The hearing will come to order today. The
Committee meets to consider two nominations. John Walk, is
nominated to be Inspector General (IG) of the U.S. Department
of Agriculture (USDA). Mr. Walk currently works as a senior
advisor to the Secretary of Agriculture, and previously served
in various roles within the Executive Branch over the last 20
years.
Thomas March Bell, is nominated to be Inspector General of
the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Mr.
Bell currently serves as General Counsel (GC) and Senior
Investigative Counsel on the House Committee on Administration.
He previously served in various roles at the Department of
Justice (DOJ), the House of Representatives, and the Senate.
The written statements have been submitted for the
record.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ The written statements appear in the Appendix on pages 17 and
51.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the interest of time, I will forego opening remarks.
Senator Peters.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\2\
Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to our
nominees, and congratulations on your nominations. Good to see
that you have your family here with you as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the
Appendix on page 15.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is important for this Committee to hear from and
question nominees at public hearings, and I certainly
appreciate the opportunity to do that today. However, I am
disappointed that we have had almost no opportunity to conduct
public oversight of this administration and its top officials
after they have been confirmed.
Mr. Chair, since the beginning of this year, you have held
just one hearing, one hearing, where an administration official
testified, and that was more than six months ago. Just to put
in perspective, when I was Chairman during the Biden
administration, we had 10 hearings with administration
officials at this point, in that first year. 1 versus 10.
Year's not over, we could catch up and get to the 10, but
that's a pretty slim agenda.
You have only held also one legislative markup this year.
This Committee has wide ranging legislative and oversight
responsibilities. There are several bills that Members on both
sides of the aisle want to debate in advance, and there are
numerous oversight issues administration officials need to
answer for.
Chair Paul, I hope you will call on the leaders of the
Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI), and the National Counter-Terrorism Center
(NCTC) to testify before this Committee before the end of the
year. This Committee's annual threats hearing provides a
critical opportunity for the American people to hear from our
national security leaders about wide raging threats that are
currently facing our Nation.
Now, turning to our nominees. This year, the administration
has launched an unprecedented attack on the independence of
inspector generals. These are nonpartisan watchdogs responsible
for combating waste, fraud, and abuse across the government.
Since taking office, President Trump has fired 19 inspectors
general, and not once did he provide the legally required
notification or explanation to Congress.
President Trump has also attacked acting IGs. Just two
weeks ago, he fired the acting IG for the Federal Housing
Finance Agency (FHFA) in apparent act of retaliation. As the
administration continues to undermine independent oversight
bodies, it's more important now than ever that we have
qualified nonpartisan individuals to serve in these roles.
Thomas March Bell has been nominated to serve as the IG of
the Department of Health and Human Services. If confirmed, Mr.
Bell will be tasked with overseeing one of the largest
departments, including $2.3 trillion budget, and over 100
programs. Given Mr. Bell's highly partisan track record, I am
concerned that he will instead use the IGs office to pursue
political aims, attacking women's reproductive rights, for
example.
What does the record show? Mr. Bell led a partisan
investigation into an alleged sale of fetal tissue for profit,
a claim that has already been thoroughly investigated and
thoroughly debunked. He served as the Chief of Staff of the
Office of Civil Rights at HHS in the first Trump administration
where he limited women's access to reproductive care. Mr. Bell
is anything but a non-partisan.
Currently, he's investigating a Democratic fundraising
platform, even though its Republican counterpart faces the
exact same issues. He's only focusing on the Democratic
platform. He's plays politics with every oversight role that he
has had.
Mr. Bell is not unique. I am also concerned about the
independence of President Trump's nominee for IG to the
Department of Agriculture. John Walk is currently serving as
Senior Advisor to the Secretary of Agriculture, and as the
Acting Director of the Office of Tribal Relations. He also
serves as the Acting Deputy Undersecretary for Food, Nutrition
and Consumer Services.
How can we trust that the Secretary's right-hand man will
provide independent oversight of the very policies and the very
programs that he has implemented? I think the answer is clear;
we can't. I am concerned that instead of acting impartially,
Mr. Walk will cater to the administration.
Still, I thank the nominees for being here today, and I
look forward to asking and hearing from you questions that are
posed.
Chairman Paul. It is the practice of the Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to swear and
witnesses with the nominees. Please stand and raise your right
hand. Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this
Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you, God?
[Witnesses answer in the affirmative.]
Thank you. It's the standard practice of this Committee for
the Chair to ask nominees the following question. Do you agree,
without reservation, to comply with any request or summons, to
appear and testify before any duly constituted Committee of
Congress, if you are confirmed
[Witnesses answer in the affirmative.]
At this time, we will proceed to questions, and I am going
to defer my questions now and go to Senator Ernst.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST
Senator Ernst. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate
our witnesses being here as well.
Mr. Bell, I am going to go ahead and start with you. In
Fiscal Year (FY) 2024, Medicare and Medicaid combined to
account for more than 20 percent of all Federal spending. This
means that the HHS Inspector General, who oversees those
programs, has a massive responsibility to ensure Federal
dollars are used appropriately and consistent with
congressional intent.
There's a lot of room for improvement at HHS on this, Mr.
Bell, and I hope that you will be able to focus your office's
resources on these programs, if confirmed. The HHS IG has 1,188
open recommendations, and that's a lot. I encourage you to take
the lead, if confirmed as the HHS IG, to get those resolved.
Now, there are a few that caught my attention. The Centers
for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) had not recovered more
than $1 billion in Medicaid overpayments identified by the
Office of Inspector General (OIG) audits. Medicare could have
saved up to $128 million over five years if CMS had implemented
control to address duplicate payments for services.
Mr. Bell, there are many changes overdue at HHS to lower
costs and improve access to care for Iowans and all Americans.
But, if confirmed, would you commit to addressing existing
recommendations to reduce, and hopefully, eliminate
overpayments and duplicate duplicative payments?
Mr. Bell. I do.
Senator Ernst. Thank you. That's an easy one. Mr. Bell, as
HHS IG will be responsible for oversight of the National
Institutes of Health (NIH), NIH conducts and support
significant groundbreaking research to help keep Americans
healthier, but it also conducts and supports research that has
no business getting taxpayer support. This includes studies
answering critical questions such as; are pampered cats less
likely to poop outside the litter box? Do pigeons gamble? Does
this sour cream and onion flavored potato chip look like Elvis?
All of these studies are required to provide a public price
tag for taxpayers by the Stevens Amendment, but none of them
do. In fact, a 2019 Government Accountability Office (GAO)
report, I requested, found that none, none of HHS's operating
divisions could demonstrate that they had a process to manage
and administer grantees compliance with the Stevens Amendment.
I am sorry, we spent taxpayer dollars on this. It might look
like Elvis, but did we have to spend taxpayer dollars on this?
From your previous time at HHS, are you aware of other laws
that HHS and/or those who receive grants or funding from HHS
that have blatantly disregarded what you would like to
highlight for this Committee?
Mr. Bell. Thank you for that question, Senator. I did see a
number of grants and proposals and guidance directions during
the first Trump administration that were obnoxious to
congressionally passed statutes. Some are just the unfortunate
largesse of a bureaucracy with a lot of other people's money to
spend and the ability to, in an unaccountable way, spend that
money outside the brackets of congressional law.
Senator Ernst. Yes. Thank you. I think that we need to
really pay attention. I have spent a lot of my last 11 years
focusing on waste, fraud, and abuse within our Federal
Government. These are a few of the egregious examples of the
misuse of taxpayer dollars. We need better oversight. We need
compliance with the laws that are already in existence.
My message today is I do not think anybody agrees we should
be spending money on a potato chip. I just, I do not believe
that. I am sorry, the litter box thing, let some private
company pay for that if they are focused on kitty litter,
whatever it might be. But let's not spend taxpayer dollars on
garbage like this.
I appreciate that we have additional questions. I will
submit those for the record.
But I really want to thank you. Let's make sure we are
focused on effective ways that we can use our taxpayer dollars
for the right and intended use.
Mr. Bell. Gladly.
Senator Ernst. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Paul. Senator Peters.
Senator Peters. Mr. Chair, I defer on my questions and
recognize Senator Hassan.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN
Senator Hassan. Thank you so much, Ranking Member Peters.
Mr. Chair, thank you as well for this hearing. To our
witnesses, congratulations on your nominations, and to your
families as well.
I want to start with a question to Mr. Walk. It's a simple,
straightforward question that I already asked Mr. Bell at a
previous hearing, so I just want you to answer this one, Mr.
Walk. If directed by the President to take action that would
break the law, would you follow the law or follow the
President's directive?
Mr. Walk. Senator, I appreciate that question. Regardless
of who were to ask otherwise, I will faithfully abide by the
United States Constitution and the laws established thereunder.
Senator Hassan. I appreciate that. To both of you, shortly
after taking office, President Trump illegally fired 17
inspectors general, including the inspectors general for the
Departments of Health and Human Service, and Agriculture, the
same inspectors general that you are now nominated to replace.
In doing so, the President not only broke the law, but he also
purposely removed the people charged with preventing fraud,
waste, and abuse in our government.
To each of you, we will start with you, Mr. Walk, do you
support the President's firing of the inspector general who
held the position for which you are now nominated?
Mr. Walk. Senator, the President is entitled to remove
inspector generals. I would just add that our former inspector
general is a plaintiff in a lawsuit naming USDA as a defendant.
As an employee of USDA, I would not be able to answer that.
Senator Hassan. I am going to go to Mr. Bell for a minute,
and then I want to followup with both of you. Mr. Bell, do you
support the firing of your predecessor? Which, by the way, to
both of you, judge has said clearly broke the plain language of
the law.
Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator, for that question. I was not
a part of the legal analysis for that decision made by the
President, head of the Executive Branch. I do not know what
justification the lawyers provided, but I support the right of
the head of the Executive Branch to remove any employee.
Senator Hassan. Let's be clear that a Federal judge looking
at the plain language of the statute, which says that the
President had to give Congress, I think it's 30 days' notice
and a reason, and the President did not do that. The President
broke the law. I would like to remind both of you that, if
confirmed, you will be taking an oath to uphold the law, and
you will be tasked with being a watchdog over others.
Senator Ernst just made the point that we need people to
comply with the written law laws that Congress writes. You will
be tasked with being a watchdog over others. Do you support the
President breaking the law and illegally firing your
predecessors? Yes or no, Mr. Walk?
Mr. Walk. Senator, again, that matter is in pending
litigation, and I can't answer.
Senator Hassan. Mr. Bell.
Mr. Bell. Senator, I am not a Constitutional separation of
powers expert----
Senator Hassan. Right. I am going to go on because I do not
have a lot of time, and I still have another couple of
questions. But let's just be very clear, there are statutes
written in the law. The language is quite plain here. You can
read them, and you can decide whether you are going to comply
with them or not.
To each of you, will you commit to continuing any open
investigations that were initiated by your predecessor or by
your agency's current acting inspector general? Mr. Walk?
Mr. Walk. Senator, I cannot make the commitment right now,
just because I do not know what those investigations are, but I
would make those kinds of decisions on the merit.
Senator Hassan. Mr. Bell?
Mr. Bell. Senator, I looked at the 223 open investigations
on the website of Health and Human Services, and many of them
looked interesting. I will commit, if confirmed, to take a
close look at all of them and review them on their merits.
Senator Hassan. You can understand how concerned we are
that the President of the United States broke the terms of the
statute, fired independent inspectors general, and are
replacing them with two people who have partisan backgrounds,
and who are not committing to either following the law or
keeping the investigations that nonpartisans had started.
Mr. Bell, another question for you. When you testified
before the Finance Committee, I asked you about the HHS Office
of the Inspector General's ongoing investigation into for-
profit methadone clinics. As I previously shared with you, the
HHS Office of the Inspector General has found that for-profit
methadone clinics are billing Medicare for healthcare services
that patients never received.
According to a recent Inspector General report, this scheme
is costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars, and
patients who need addiction treatment are not getting the care
that they were promised. I asked you this question previously,
you did not respond directly, so I am going to ask you again.
As HHS Inspector General, will you continue to investigate
whether opioid treatment are fraudulently billing the Federal
Government for care that they never provided to patients? Yes
or no?
Mr. Bell. Senator, you and I discussed that in our private
meeting, and I told you then, and I will tell you now, I am
committed to eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse in those
programs. I would be glad to sit down with you.
Senator Hassan. So, yes or no, will you continue that
investigation?
Mr. Bell. I will continue to investigate waste, fraud, and
abuse. I am not familiar with the details of that
investigation, but I will become familiar with them, and would
be happy to sit down with you and advance that cause as
appropriate.
Chairman Paul. Senator Moody.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MOODY
Senator Moody. ff mic.]--make sure that our moneys that
need to go to people who need help and are addicted in the
middle of a health crisis, that the monies are going to them
and not to fraud. I appreciate that topic being brought up, and
I appreciate your commitment to looking into that. So
important.
Appreciate, Mr. Walk, Mr. Bell, you being here today. I see
that you brought your family members. Thank you for being here
to support them. These hearings are sometimes tough, and it's
nice to know they have loved ones at their back. Thank you for
being here and supporting them in their public service. So
important.
I want to address my questions specifically to Mr. Bell. I
have had some personal connection to many of the issues that
you will be involved in once you are confirmed. The position
that you have--well, that both of you are undertaking the
position of IG is perhaps one of the most important roles in an
agency.
The trust the American people put in you to remain
impartial, and dependent, apolitical over an organization's
staff. It's an awesome responsibility, and I believe that you
have the influence, the ability, and certainly, the opportunity
to restore trust in our government. That is so important right
now. I think these positions are some of the most important
nominations right now in our history. Thank you for being here
today.
One of the things that I am particularly concerned with is
what has happened to unaccompanied alien children (UAC) during
the last administration? As you know, you may have read, I was
very involved in taking the last administration to task. I
thought in many ways they were not only facilitating, but
acting as intermediaries of trafficking organizations, putting
the American government in that position when these children
were smuggled over the border. At the end of the day, however
they got here, whatever means, that they were smuggled across
the border.
The last administration, the Biden administration, put them
with sponsors, dozens of children, with the same sponsors,
dumped them into unspeakable situations. In our investigation,
we did a grand jury investigation in Florida, they lost track
of tens of thousands of children. They were placed in
situations that the grand jury said it was unspeakable. Some
were sent to strip clubs, dropped off in vacant lots. They were
subject to abuse, put with people they didn't even know. I
could go on and on in terms of the findings of a grand jury.
Just for the American public to understand, a grand jury is
not a partisan organization. It's made up of people that are
brought in from the community, of all political affiliations,
all walks of life. These are what they found; that the Biden
administration had put children into these situations and they
were just subjected to horrific abuse.
As Florida's Attorney General (AG), I fought constantly in
court to stop not only the intentional destruction of our
border, but what was happening to our kids as a result. I know,
Mr. Bell, you have a history. You worked at DOJ in the Human
Trafficking Bureau as Chief Counsel for the Select Panel on
Infant Lives. Certainly, I know that you value life.
I introduced Senate Bill 1997, the Stop GAPS Act, which
would require the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), and HHS
to work with states, with placing children with sponsors.
Because one of the things that we found was that they were not
even telling our Department of Children and Families when they
were bringing these kids in and dumping them off into these
situations. They were clandestine flights in the middle of the
night. They would not give us information. Even we tried to
subpoena them for information. They refused. They would not let
their people talk to us. I mean, think about that. It was
almost as though they were hiding what they were trying to do.
I want to make sure not only do we address the fact that
they lost track of tens of thousands of children that were
placed in dangerous situation, I hope we can figure out a way
to make sure this never happens again. If it does start
happening, that there's someone that's watching for that, and
can make sure that we are shoring up any safeguards that we
have.
A former HHS official said that they looked into this and
that person said they not only verified, but corroborated what
was going on in Florida, and they found even more evidence of
fraud with placement and sponsorships of unaccompanied minor
children. They never did anything about it, even after they had
the information.
It's my hope that we get someone in there that understands
how important it is for oversight, regardless of who's in the
White House, and if a President does something like that again
and causes harm to our children, that someone will step in and
end it. It does not take a State AG to be fighting a battle
from one of our states.
Mr. Bell, I know you may not have been briefed on all of
the circumstances of the case, but I do I have your commitment
to review this?
Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator. Not only do you have my
commitment, but I have been in all of those ORR facilities when
I was a DOJ lawyer in charge of the trafficking program. I have
interviewed 250 trafficking victims. I think somebody made a
decision somewhere, and that decision, let that child go to the
wrong place. I believe what an IG would do is find out who was
in charge of that person, how that decision was made, and take
the types of steps so this never happens again.
Senator Moody. I have your commitment to review that
process, and make sure that you are holding the agency
accountable to its responsibilities under the law?
Mr. Bell. Yes, you do.
Senator Moody. Thank you so much.
Chairman Paul. Senator Peters.
Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Bell, in your
opening statement that you provided for the record, you pledge,
``to support the initiatives of President Trump and Secretary
Kennedy.'' Then, you go on to say you are going to support,
``their courageous and innovative change of direction for the
improved healthcare of all Americans.''
It's unusual to see those kinds of quotes from an IG who is
supposed to be a watchdog, supposed to hold folks accountable.
Traditionally, we do not see opening statements for an IG that
is saying, ``I am excited to be a cheerleader for the
administration. I am going to be there cheering them all, every
step of the way.'' That's not the job of an IG.
I think you know that the idea is to hold the
administrations accountable. Just as you were asked by the
Senator Moody, to hold administrations accountable, you have to
hold them accountable, not be a cheerleader. What did you mean
by those statements? Tell me that you will be an actual
watchdog, which is the job of the IG.
Mr. Bell. Thank you for the question, Senator, and thank
you for the opportunity to explain what I mean by initiatives.
I think the administration has several initiatives that any
Congress would get behind, which is; improving the delivery of
healthcare, improving the compliance with Federal statutes to
make Medicare and Medicaid viable for the future by making sure
the recipients are the intended recipients by Congress, to make
sure that agencies don't go astray looking at potato chips and
Elvis Presley.
I think those initiatives are the good government, good
delivery, waste, fraud, and abuse initiatives that both the
Secretary and the President have announced. I also think the
structure of the IG Statute calls for cooperation and
collaboration with the agency head, calls for being a student
of Congress and congressional intent. It also allows the IG to
initiate investigations or management reviews on his or her own
initiative. Those are the three places, the three buckets that
IG initiatives can fall into.
Certainly, many of those initiatives come from the
administration, and I hope to be as helpful as I can in rooting
out waste, fraud, and abuse.
Senator Peters. I think we all agree those are good
initiatives. Those are good initiatives for all of us to be
focused on. But the job of the IG is to say, this initiative is
not doing what it's intended to do. Sometimes that means
calling out things that may be not flattering to an
administration, but that's the job of an IG.
You talk about one of the powers under the Act is that you
can initiate investigations, which is really critical that you
see something that doesn't seem right, your team sees something
that isn't right, you begin the investigations. A President,
regardless of the party, may not be happy with that initiative
because it could be embarrassing or show a major flaw in what
they are trying to do.
Then, a President's going to call up an IG and say, ``Hey,
stop this investigation,'' even though you have the power, in
fact, the expectation that you will be the one initiating it.
President Trump calls you and says, ``Stop it.'' Will you tell
him, ``No, the law pretty clearly shows that I can initiate
this investigation, and I believe that it's something that the
taxpayers of the United States need to know what's going on.''
Would you say no to President Trump?
Mr. Bell. First of all, Senator, I do not have any
experience in my time in the previous administration, nor do I
know anyone who served in that administration or this one,
who's been asked by the President to do anything unethical or
illegal. I do not believe he would do that.
Second, as you and I discussed yesterday in your office, I
think an IG is supposed to, in the words of Senator Wyden, call
balls and strikes without secretly wearing a jersey for the
pitcher or the batter. I like that characterization, and that's
what I would do, if confirmed
Senator Peters. Mr. Walk, as a senior advisor to the USDA,
you have been intimately involved in agency operations. As
Inspector General, you would be likely tasked with conducting
oversight of these very issues. But given you are clearly
partisan work, I do not believe we can trust that you are going
to be able to do that in a free, nonpartisan way.
Will you recuse yourself from any matters on which you
personally worked on at the USDA that would give us more trust
if you would commit right now to recuse yourself from anything
that you worked on at USDA?
Mr. Walk. Senator, I appreciate the question. Recusals are
very fact-specific. What I will commit to doing is to follow
all Federal laws applicable to Federal employees, all
regulations. I also look to applicable guidance such as from
the Office of Government Ethics (OGE), as well as professional
standards, including for accounting and independence, as well
as for the legal profession.
I also intend to consult with our IG counsel. We also have
a group, the Office of Compliance and Integrity, whose job is
to make sure that our products are done in a way that meets
professional standards. I will also work with them as well to
make sure there's integrity in our work.
Senator Peters. Let's hope that's the case. Thank you, Mr.
Chair.
Chairman Paul. Thank you both for your willingness to
serve. I thought we would take a moment and let you introduce
your family, if you would like. Mr. Walk?
Mr. Walk. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am grateful to be joined
here by my wife, Ruth, my four daughters; Joanna, Phoebe,
Hannah, and Grace.
Chairman Paul. Wonderful. Mr. Bell?
Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator. Senator, I am joined by my
wife, Maryam Bell, a beacon of good advice, kindness, and
patience. We have both worked here in Washington since 1982,
and she's with me here today.
Chairman Paul. That's why you have been married so long
because you appreciate that advice, right?
Mr. Bell. That's correct.
Chairman Paul. There have been accusations made that you
may be partisan, that you may be people that are just
diabolically going to do Republican things and sort out, search
after Democrats.
I would like to ask you both individually; will you look at
waste and fraud, and at the parameters of your job, and
administer it independent of whether the targets might be
Republican or Democrat appointees?
Mr. Walk. Senator, I will.
Mr. Bell. Yes, Senator, I will.
Chairman Paul. Is there anything else that either of you
would like to mention about your jobs that we have not gotten
to that you would like to bring forward to the Committee? The
one of the programs that I think will be under Mr. Walk's
purview is the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program
(SNAP). The GAO found that 12 percent of the payments from the
SNAP program, about $10 billion, were improper. Do you have any
ideas, Mr. Walk, about how we would go about or how an
Inspector General would go about looking at fraud in the SNAP
program?
Mr. Walk. Mr. Chair, thank you for that question. As
Ranking Member Peters mentioned, I did serve for four months as
acting Deputy Undersecretary of USDA's Food, Nutrition, and
Consumer Services (FNCS). And SNAP fraud was one of the issues
that I was very much interested in.
I believe we should make sure that we are continuing to
look at internal controls to be sure that the actions that are
being taken are appropriate for the types of fraud that's
happening today because we see it at all levels. From the
application, to the retail stores, as well as outside folks who
might be skimming. That's been a real problem. We have had a
lot stolen through skimming from international gangs.
I think we want to make sure that we have the internal
controls in place that we are doing more in terms of our
management evaluations to be sure the States are following the
guidance.
Mr. Walk. There's also, I think, room for improvements in
terms of technology. I am sure you all know that right now,
SNAP is selling the Electronic Benefit Transfer (EBT) card for
the most case which is essentially a magnetic strip. It's well
behind other payment systems that would have a chip. It's low
hanging fruit, and that does make it easier and more enticing
for folks to try to skim from that.
I think we do want to look at technology and how we can
improve technology, and how we can use technology to identify
fraud and identify the patterns so that we can go after it. I
am happy to say we have an Office of Analytics and Innovation
at OIG that has been doing some good work in that area. I would
love to explore, we can do even more.
Finally, I think it's important to increase the
consequences for fraud. I think we can do more in terms of
pursuing Federal criminal prosecutions, and making sure that we
are building the cases for the Department of Justice to go
after those who commit fraud with taxpayer dollars.
Chairman Paul. Senator Blumenthal.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BLUMENTHAL
Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the
Committee. Welcome, to your families, and thank you for your
willing to serve our country as Inspectors General of
Agriculture, and Health and Human Services. You play a critical
role in ensuring the integrity and effectiveness of our
government.
Mr. Walk, we were talking or you were talking to the
chairman about the SNAP program, and we understand or we have
heard that the Secretary of Agriculture has said that there has
to be reapplication on the part of all current SNAP recipients
now. Is that your understanding?
Mr. Walk. Senator, I have only read that in the news in the
same way. I have not had any conversations with the Secretary.
Senator Blumenthal. But you are a senior advisor to her.
Mr. Walk. That's right.
Senator Blumenthal. Right. You have not heard anything
about it?
Mr. Walk. I, generally, would say I know what has been
reported, and I understand that to be accurate.
Senator Blumenthal. There is no legal requirement that all
of the current SNAP beneficiaries reapply as though they had
not been receiving SNAP benefits, is there?
Mr. Walk. Senator, my understanding is that there's a
requirement for recertification, but in terms of retaking folks
off unless they reapply, I don't know that there's a
requirement for that.
Senator Blumenthal. There is none, correct?
Mr. Walk. Not that I am aware of.
Senator Blumenthal. OK. The recertification is different
from the application process, correct?
Mr. Walk. It is.
Senator Blumenthal. Recertification is done periodically
every six months, depending on what the State decides is
appropriate?
Mr. Walk. Yes.
Senator Blumenthal. Will you commit that you will make sure
that all of the 42 million current SNAP recipients and
beneficiaries receive these benefits, if they are entitled to
do so under current law, and that the approval process is done
expeditiously and timely so that they get those benefits as
they need them to put food on the table?
Mr. Walk. Senator, thank you for the question. As I said, I
did spend four months at FNCS. One of the initiatives I took on
in that short time was to send to the Governors a letter that
we expected timeliness in terms of the 30-day, 7-day period of
completing the approval process for the applications. That is
an important issue to me, even on that side. Of course, as an
IG, my role would not be to be in the policy role, but as IG, I
would have exercise----
Senator Blumenthal. If there are delays, it would be your
responsibility to assure that the approvals are done in a
timely and important way because people depend on the SNAP
benefits, literally, to feed their children. Correct?
Mr. Walk. Senator, I agree that the IG should continue to
practice effective oversight over the SNAP application process.
Senator Blumenthal. If I come to you as a Member of the
Senate, and I say the information available to me is that there
are delays and bureaucratic hangups, you would look into it,
correct?
Mr. Walk. Senator, that's correct. IG Act says I need to
keep Congress fully and currently informed.
Senator Blumenthal. I am going to hold you to that
commitment.
Let me ask you about foodborne illness. There was an
incident involving Boar's Head contamination with listeria that
caused 60 people to be hospitalized, and 10 tragically to lose
their lives. Those deaths never should have happened.
At the time, I asked the then Inspector General, Phyllis
Fong, to investigate the agency's handling of repeated sanitary
violation that were founded Boar's Head plants. As far as I
know, the investigation is still ongoing. Can you confirm that
fact?
Mr. Walk. Senator, I do not know, but I can take a look at
that and get back to your staff.
Senator Blumenthal. If you could, I would appreciate it. If
it is ongoing, will you commit to ensure that the Office of
Inspector General will continue to independently investigate
this incident and hold Boar's head accountable for its role in
the outbreak?
Mr. Walk. Yes, sir.
Senator Blumenthal. Let me ask you, Mr. Bell. What
assurance can you give us on this Committee that you will be
independent? I know that you have been asked about this issue
before, that you will be independent of the leadership of the
Department of Health and Human Services, in light of your
statements and your political involvement on some of the issues
that come before the department.
Mr. Bell. Senator, thank you for that question. Senator, in
graduate school, I read Aristotle's Rhetoric, and I know the
difference between political rhetoric and the type of evidence
that a Federal prosecutor accumulates for litigation.
All of my work product that is rhetorical or advocacy-
oriented, has been in political campaigns. All of my work
product, either in congressional oversight or while at DOJ, has
followed prosecutorial standards' high quality of evidence,
corroborated evidence, documented evidence. My record speaks
for itself.
Just because a product offended some interest to some
group, does not mean it did not follow the highest standards of
investigation. I do not believe, on the investigative side, I
have a single partisan product on my record.
Chairman Paul. Senator time is expired. Senator Hawley.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY
Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Congratulations to the nominees. Thank you for being here.
Mr. Walk, let me just start with you. Give us a sense, if
you would, give me a sense of your priorities, if confirmed,
what you think are the major efforts, lines of effort that you
would pursue. Just give me a sense of what you think the lay of
the land is.
Mr. Walk. Senator, thank you. The top, I would say, three
priorities would be public health and safety, integrity of our
programs, and also, the national security programs.
Senator Hawley. On the national security programs, what do
you have in mind, in particular?
Mr. Walk. Senator, you may know that the Secretary has
released a farm security plan that highlights kind of the
linkage between homeland security and agriculture. We have
seen, for example foreign investments in the United States
related to agriculture, both in foreign purchases as well as
companies where we are getting data, it seems shipped to export
it to foreign adversaries. I think we need, as we take actions
on those kinds of things, for the IG to make sure that it's
done in an appropriate way.
Other issues that I think deserves a look is research
security. I am sure, as you may know, in the last six months
there's been at least two breaches at the University of
Michigan involving biological materials that have a link to
agriculture. One is Fusarium, which the FBI has characterized
as an agroterrorism weapon, and the other is a ringworm, which
can cause pretty serious diseases to livestock. Both were at
the hands of foreign adversaries; I will just say Chinese
nationals.
There seems to be a pattern there. In other schools as
well, where we need to be looking closer at research security,
particularly when it comes from USDA. Is that money staying
within the United States, or is it somehow supporting foreign
adversaries?
There's also, I think, an interest in terms of making sure
that we increase our independence so that we are not dependent
on foreign nations for key agricultural inputs such as
fertilizer. I would view all of that within the national
security rubric.
Senator Hawley. Very good. Mr. Bell, let me just switch to
you, if I could. I want to talk to you for just a second about
rural hospitals, particularly cybersecurity as it relates to
rural hospitals. About 40 percent of the hospitals in my State
are rural. Frequently, these hospitals do not have the budget
to stand up a cybersecurity effort, and as a consequence, they
are frequently the targets of cybersecurity attacks.
That's one of the reasons that Senator Hassan and I have
introduced a bill called the Rural Hospital Cybersecurity
Enhancement Act, which would direct HHS to create a
comprehensive workforce strategy to train and develop
cybersecurity personnel and professionals to help rural
hospitals in particular.
Now, I ask you this because if this legislation were to
pass, the Office of Inspector General would be tasked with
auditing how HHS develops and rolls out the cybersecurity
strategy, including verifying that the training goes to the
neediest hospitals, holding grantees accountable for
improvements in defenses.
If you were confirmed, can you commit to me that you would
prioritize oversight of legislation like the Rural Hospital
Cybersecurity Enhancement as part of HHS's broader rural
hospital or rural health efforts?
Mr. Bell. Senator Hawley, thank you for the question. I
concur. That's a serious problem. Having spent four years the
National Counterterrorism Center, I am aware of the dangers of
cybersecurity, and I will commit to sit down with you and
figure out how to implement that, if confirmed, and if passed.
But I believe that would be a top priority even if the
legislation doesn't pass.
Senator Hawley. Very good. Give me a sense of, in just our
few remaining seconds here, what you see as the other top
priorities and lines of effort that, should you be confirmed.
Mr. Bell. I think 80 percent of the IG staff is dedicated
to Medicare and Medicaid fraud. There's a lot of modernization
that needs to take place. One of the first things I would look
at is what type of payment tracker software is the office using
in order to look across data bases to find fraud? I will bring
to bear my background at the Department of Justice in stopping
criminal conduct.
It's important to just to rack up more cases or more money,
but to change behavior. Behavior of people doing the fraud
needs to be changed. I would design advice and initiatives to
change the behavior of people committing fraud so they don't
decide not to do so.
Senator Hawley. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Paul. Thank you to the nominees for your time
today and your commitment to work with the Committee. The
nominees have filed responses to biographical and financial
questionnaires\1\ and had their financial statements reviewed
by the Office of Government Ethics.\2\ Without objection, this
information will be made part of the hearing record with the
exception of the nominees' financial data, which are on file
with the committee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ The information for Mr. Walk appears in the Appendix on page
19.
\2\ The information for Mr. Bell appears in the Appendix on page
53.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Due to the quick turnaround between this hearing and the
markup tomorrow, the hearing record will remain open until 5
p.m. today, November 19th.
The hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:46 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
----------
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[all]