    [Senate Hearing 119-217]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 119-217

                          NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK AND
                                  THOMAS BELL
    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                   HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

               NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL,
             U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, AND THOMAS BELL TO BE
                INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND
                                 HUMAN SERVICES

                                   __________

                               NOVEMBER 19, 2025

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                           Printed for the use of the
            Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    62-165 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2026

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                         RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Chairman
    RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin               GARY C. PETERS, Michigan
    JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma             MAGGIE WOOD HASSAN, New Hampshire
    RICK SCOTT, Florida                  RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
    BERNIE MORENO, Ohio                  ANDY KIM, New Jersey
    JONI ERNST, Iowa                     RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
    ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan

                    William E. Henderson III, Staff Director
                      Christina N. Salazar, Chief Counsel
                          Andrew J. Hopkins,  Counsel
                   Olivia Naughton, Professional Staff Member
                   David M. Weinberg, Minority Staff Director
         Christopher J. Mulkins, Minority Director of Homeland Security
                  Claudine J. Brenner, Minority Senior Counsel
                         Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                       Ashley A. Gonzalez, Records Clerk

                                C O N T E N T S

                                     ------
    Opening statements:
                                                                       Page
        Senator Paul.................................................     1
        Senator Peters...............................................     1
        Senator Ernst................................................     3
        Senator Hassan...............................................     4
        Senator Moody................................................     6
        Senator Blumenthal...........................................    11
        Senator Hawley...............................................    13
    Prepared statements:
        Senator Peters...............................................    15

                                   WITNESSES
                          WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2025

    John Walk to be Inspector General, U.S. Department of Agriculture
        Prepared statement...........................................    17
        Biographical and professional information....................    19
        Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    39
        Responses to post-hearing questions..........................    42
    Thomas Bell to be Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health
      and Human Services
        Prepared statement...........................................    51
        Biographical and professional information....................    53
        Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    64
        Responses to post-hearing questions..........................    67

                                    APPENDIX

    The picture submitted by Senator Ernst...........................    73
    Senator Fetterman's documents submitted to USDA..................    74

                          NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK AND
                                  THOMAS BELL

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2025

                                         U.S. Senate,
                               Committee on Homeland Security
                                      and Governmental Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in
    room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Rand Paul,
    Chair of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Paul [presiding], Hawley, Ernst, Moody,
    Peters, Hassan, and Blumenthal.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PAUL

        Chairman Paul. The hearing will come to order today. The
    Committee meets to consider two nominations. John Walk, is
    nominated to be Inspector General (IG) of the U.S. Department
    of Agriculture (USDA). Mr. Walk currently works as a senior
    advisor to the Secretary of Agriculture, and previously served
    in various roles within the Executive Branch over the last 20
    years.
        Thomas March Bell, is nominated to be Inspector General of
    the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Mr.
    Bell currently serves as General Counsel (GC) and Senior
    Investigative Counsel on the House Committee on Administration.
    He previously served in various roles at the Department of
    Justice (DOJ), the House of Representatives, and the Senate.
        The written statements have been submitted for the
    record.\1\
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The written statements appear in the Appendix on pages 17 and
    51.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        In the interest of time, I will forego opening remarks.
    Senator Peters.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\2\

        Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to our
    nominees, and congratulations on your nominations. Good to see
    that you have your family here with you as well.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \2\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the
    Appendix on page 15.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I think it is important for this Committee to hear from and
    question nominees at public hearings, and I certainly
    appreciate the opportunity to do that today. However, I am
    disappointed that we have had almost no opportunity to conduct
    public oversight of this administration and its top officials
    after they have been confirmed.
        Mr. Chair, since the beginning of this year, you have held
    just one hearing, one hearing, where an administration official
    testified, and that was more than six months ago. Just to put
    in perspective, when I was Chairman during the Biden
    administration, we had 10 hearings with administration
    officials at this point, in that first year. 1 versus 10.
    Year's not over, we could catch up and get to the 10, but
    that's a pretty slim agenda.
        You have only held also one legislative markup this year.
    This Committee has wide ranging legislative and oversight
    responsibilities. There are several bills that Members on both
    sides of the aisle want to debate in advance, and there are
    numerous oversight issues administration officials need to
    answer for.
        Chair Paul, I hope you will call on the leaders of the
    Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the Federal Bureau of
    Investigation (FBI), and the National Counter-Terrorism Center
    (NCTC) to testify before this Committee before the end of the
    year. This Committee's annual threats hearing provides a
    critical opportunity for the American people to hear from our
    national security leaders about wide raging threats that are
    currently facing our Nation.
        Now, turning to our nominees. This year, the administration
    has launched an unprecedented attack on the independence of
    inspector generals. These are nonpartisan watchdogs responsible
    for combating waste, fraud, and abuse across the government.
    Since taking office, President Trump has fired 19 inspectors
    general, and not once did he provide the legally required
    notification or explanation to Congress.
        President Trump has also attacked acting IGs. Just two
    weeks ago, he fired the acting IG for the Federal Housing
    Finance Agency (FHFA) in apparent act of retaliation. As the
    administration continues to undermine independent oversight
    bodies, it's more important now than ever that we have
    qualified nonpartisan individuals to serve in these roles.
        Thomas March Bell has been nominated to serve as the IG of
    the Department of Health and Human Services. If confirmed, Mr.
    Bell will be tasked with overseeing one of the largest
    departments, including $2.3 trillion budget, and over 100
    programs. Given Mr. Bell's highly partisan track record, I am
    concerned that he will instead use the IGs office to pursue
    political aims, attacking women's reproductive rights, for
    example.
        What does the record show? Mr. Bell led a partisan
    investigation into an alleged sale of fetal tissue for profit,
    a claim that has already been thoroughly investigated and
    thoroughly debunked. He served as the Chief of Staff of the
    Office of Civil Rights at HHS in the first Trump administration
    where he limited women's access to reproductive care. Mr. Bell
    is anything but a non-partisan.
        Currently, he's investigating a Democratic fundraising
    platform, even though its Republican counterpart faces the
    exact same issues. He's only focusing on the Democratic
    platform. He's plays politics with every oversight role that he
    has had.
        Mr. Bell is not unique. I am also concerned about the
    independence of President Trump's nominee for IG to the
    Department of Agriculture. John Walk is currently serving as
    Senior Advisor to the Secretary of Agriculture, and as the
    Acting Director of the Office of Tribal Relations. He also
    serves as the Acting Deputy Undersecretary for Food, Nutrition
    and Consumer Services.
        How can we trust that the Secretary's right-hand man will
    provide independent oversight of the very policies and the very
    programs that he has implemented? I think the answer is clear;
    we can't. I am concerned that instead of acting impartially,
    Mr. Walk will cater to the administration.
        Still, I thank the nominees for being here today, and I
    look forward to asking and hearing from you questions that are
    posed.
        Chairman Paul. It is the practice of the Homeland Security
    and Governmental Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to swear and
    witnesses with the nominees. Please stand and raise your right
    hand. Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this
    Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
    the truth, so help you, God?
        [Witnesses answer in the affirmative.]
        Thank you. It's the standard practice of this Committee for
    the Chair to ask nominees the following question. Do you agree,
    without reservation, to comply with any request or summons, to
    appear and testify before any duly constituted Committee of
    Congress, if you are confirmed
        [Witnesses answer in the affirmative.]
        At this time, we will proceed to questions, and I am going
    to defer my questions now and go to Senator Ernst.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST

        Senator Ernst. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate
    our witnesses being here as well.
        Mr. Bell, I am going to go ahead and start with you. In
    Fiscal Year (FY) 2024, Medicare and Medicaid combined to
    account for more than 20 percent of all Federal spending. This
    means that the HHS Inspector General, who oversees those
    programs, has a massive responsibility to ensure Federal
    dollars are used appropriately and consistent with
    congressional intent.
        There's a lot of room for improvement at HHS on this, Mr.
    Bell, and I hope that you will be able to focus your office's
    resources on these programs, if confirmed. The HHS IG has 1,188
    open recommendations, and that's a lot. I encourage you to take
    the lead, if confirmed as the HHS IG, to get those resolved.
        Now, there are a few that caught my attention. The Centers
    for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) had not recovered more
    than $1 billion in Medicaid overpayments identified by the
    Office of Inspector General (OIG) audits. Medicare could have
    saved up to $128 million over five years if CMS had implemented
    control to address duplicate payments for services.
        Mr. Bell, there are many changes overdue at HHS to lower
    costs and improve access to care for Iowans and all Americans.
    But, if confirmed, would you commit to addressing existing
    recommendations to reduce, and hopefully, eliminate
    overpayments and duplicate duplicative payments?
        Mr. Bell. I do.
        Senator Ernst. Thank you. That's an easy one. Mr. Bell, as
    HHS IG will be responsible for oversight of the National
    Institutes of Health (NIH), NIH conducts and support
    significant groundbreaking research to help keep Americans
    healthier, but it also conducts and supports research that has
    no business getting taxpayer support. This includes studies
    answering critical questions such as; are pampered cats less
    likely to poop outside the litter box? Do pigeons gamble? Does
    this sour cream and onion flavored potato chip look like Elvis?
        All of these studies are required to provide a public price
    tag for taxpayers by the Stevens Amendment, but none of them
    do. In fact, a 2019 Government Accountability Office (GAO)
    report, I requested, found that none, none of HHS's operating
    divisions could demonstrate that they had a process to manage
    and administer grantees compliance with the Stevens Amendment.
    I am sorry, we spent taxpayer dollars on this. It might look
    like Elvis, but did we have to spend taxpayer dollars on this?
        From your previous time at HHS, are you aware of other laws
    that HHS and/or those who receive grants or funding from HHS
    that have blatantly disregarded what you would like to
    highlight for this Committee?
        Mr. Bell. Thank you for that question, Senator. I did see a
    number of grants and proposals and guidance directions during
    the first Trump administration that were obnoxious to
    congressionally passed statutes. Some are just the unfortunate
    largesse of a bureaucracy with a lot of other people's money to
    spend and the ability to, in an unaccountable way, spend that
    money outside the brackets of congressional law.
        Senator Ernst. Yes. Thank you. I think that we need to
    really pay attention. I have spent a lot of my last 11 years
    focusing on waste, fraud, and abuse within our Federal
    Government. These are a few of the egregious examples of the
    misuse of taxpayer dollars. We need better oversight. We need
    compliance with the laws that are already in existence.
        My message today is I do not think anybody agrees we should
    be spending money on a potato chip. I just, I do not believe
    that. I am sorry, the litter box thing, let some private
    company pay for that if they are focused on kitty litter,
    whatever it might be. But let's not spend taxpayer dollars on
    garbage like this.
        I appreciate that we have additional questions. I will
    submit those for the record.
        But I really want to thank you. Let's make sure we are
    focused on effective ways that we can use our taxpayer dollars
    for the right and intended use.
        Mr. Bell. Gladly.
        Senator Ernst. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Paul. Senator Peters.
        Senator Peters. Mr. Chair, I defer on my questions and
    recognize Senator Hassan.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN

        Senator Hassan. Thank you so much, Ranking Member Peters.
    Mr. Chair, thank you as well for this hearing. To our
    witnesses, congratulations on your nominations, and to your
    families as well.
        I want to start with a question to Mr. Walk. It's a simple,
    straightforward question that I already asked Mr. Bell at a
    previous hearing, so I just want you to answer this one, Mr.
    Walk. If directed by the President to take action that would
    break the law, would you follow the law or follow the
    President's directive?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, I appreciate that question. Regardless
    of who were to ask otherwise, I will faithfully abide by the
    United States Constitution and the laws established thereunder.
        Senator Hassan. I appreciate that. To both of you, shortly
    after taking office, President Trump illegally fired 17
    inspectors general, including the inspectors general for the
    Departments of Health and Human Service, and Agriculture, the
    same inspectors general that you are now nominated to replace.
    In doing so, the President not only broke the law, but he also
    purposely removed the people charged with preventing fraud,
    waste, and abuse in our government.
        To each of you, we will start with you, Mr. Walk, do you
    support the President's firing of the inspector general who
    held the position for which you are now nominated?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, the President is entitled to remove
    inspector generals. I would just add that our former inspector
    general is a plaintiff in a lawsuit naming USDA as a defendant.
    As an employee of USDA, I would not be able to answer that.
        Senator Hassan. I am going to go to Mr. Bell for a minute,
    and then I want to followup with both of you. Mr. Bell, do you
    support the firing of your predecessor? Which, by the way, to
    both of you, judge has said clearly broke the plain language of
    the law.
        Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator, for that question. I was not
    a part of the legal analysis for that decision made by the
    President, head of the Executive Branch. I do not know what
    justification the lawyers provided, but I support the right of
    the head of the Executive Branch to remove any employee.
        Senator Hassan. Let's be clear that a Federal judge looking
    at the plain language of the statute, which says that the
    President had to give Congress, I think it's 30 days' notice
    and a reason, and the President did not do that. The President
    broke the law. I would like to remind both of you that, if
    confirmed, you will be taking an oath to uphold the law, and
    you will be tasked with being a watchdog over others.
        Senator Ernst just made the point that we need people to
    comply with the written law laws that Congress writes. You will
    be tasked with being a watchdog over others. Do you support the
    President breaking the law and illegally firing your
    predecessors? Yes or no, Mr. Walk?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, again, that matter is in pending
    litigation, and I can't answer.
        Senator Hassan. Mr. Bell.
        Mr. Bell. Senator, I am not a Constitutional separation of
    powers expert----
        Senator Hassan. Right. I am going to go on because I do not
    have a lot of time, and I still have another couple of
    questions. But let's just be very clear, there are statutes
    written in the law. The language is quite plain here. You can
    read them, and you can decide whether you are going to comply
    with them or not.
        To each of you, will you commit to continuing any open
    investigations that were initiated by your predecessor or by
    your agency's current acting inspector general? Mr. Walk?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, I cannot make the commitment right now,
    just because I do not know what those investigations are, but I
    would make those kinds of decisions on the merit.
        Senator Hassan. Mr. Bell?
        Mr. Bell. Senator, I looked at the 223 open investigations
    on the website of Health and Human Services, and many of them
    looked interesting. I will commit, if confirmed, to take a
    close look at all of them and review them on their merits.
        Senator Hassan. You can understand how concerned we are
    that the President of the United States broke the terms of the
    statute, fired independent inspectors general, and are
    replacing them with two people who have partisan backgrounds,
    and who are not committing to either following the law or
    keeping the investigations that nonpartisans had started.
        Mr. Bell, another question for you. When you testified
    before the Finance Committee, I asked you about the HHS Office
    of the Inspector General's ongoing investigation into for-
    profit methadone clinics. As I previously shared with you, the
    HHS Office of the Inspector General has found that for-profit
    methadone clinics are billing Medicare for healthcare services
    that patients never received.
        According to a recent Inspector General report, this scheme
    is costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars, and
    patients who need addiction treatment are not getting the care
    that they were promised. I asked you this question previously,
    you did not respond directly, so I am going to ask you again.
    As HHS Inspector General, will you continue to investigate
    whether opioid treatment are fraudulently billing the Federal
    Government for care that they never provided to patients? Yes
    or no?
        Mr. Bell. Senator, you and I discussed that in our private
    meeting, and I told you then, and I will tell you now, I am
    committed to eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse in those
    programs. I would be glad to sit down with you.
        Senator Hassan. So, yes or no, will you continue that
    investigation?
        Mr. Bell. I will continue to investigate waste, fraud, and
    abuse. I am not familiar with the details of that
    investigation, but I will become familiar with them, and would
    be happy to sit down with you and advance that cause as
    appropriate.
        Chairman Paul. Senator Moody.

                   OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MOODY

        Senator Moody. ff mic.]--make sure that our moneys that
    need to go to people who need help and are addicted in the
    middle of a health crisis, that the monies are going to them
    and not to fraud. I appreciate that topic being brought up, and
    I appreciate your commitment to looking into that. So
    important.
        Appreciate, Mr. Walk, Mr. Bell, you being here today. I see
    that you brought your family members. Thank you for being here
    to support them. These hearings are sometimes tough, and it's
    nice to know they have loved ones at their back. Thank you for
    being here and supporting them in their public service. So
    important.
        I want to address my questions specifically to Mr. Bell. I
    have had some personal connection to many of the issues that
    you will be involved in once you are confirmed. The position
    that you have--well, that both of you are undertaking the
    position of IG is perhaps one of the most important roles in an
    agency.
        The trust the American people put in you to remain
    impartial, and dependent, apolitical over an organization's
    staff. It's an awesome responsibility, and I believe that you
    have the influence, the ability, and certainly, the opportunity
    to restore trust in our government. That is so important right
    now. I think these positions are some of the most important
    nominations right now in our history. Thank you for being here
    today.
        One of the things that I am particularly concerned with is
    what has happened to unaccompanied alien children (UAC) during
    the last administration? As you know, you may have read, I was
    very involved in taking the last administration to task. I
    thought in many ways they were not only facilitating, but
    acting as intermediaries of trafficking organizations, putting
    the American government in that position when these children
    were smuggled over the border. At the end of the day, however
    they got here, whatever means, that they were smuggled across
    the border.
        The last administration, the Biden administration, put them
    with sponsors, dozens of children, with the same sponsors,
    dumped them into unspeakable situations. In our investigation,
    we did a grand jury investigation in Florida, they lost track
    of tens of thousands of children. They were placed in
    situations that the grand jury said it was unspeakable. Some
    were sent to strip clubs, dropped off in vacant lots. They were
    subject to abuse, put with people they didn't even know. I
    could go on and on in terms of the findings of a grand jury.
        Just for the American public to understand, a grand jury is
    not a partisan organization. It's made up of people that are
    brought in from the community, of all political affiliations,
    all walks of life. These are what they found; that the Biden
    administration had put children into these situations and they
    were just subjected to horrific abuse.
        As Florida's Attorney General (AG), I fought constantly in
    court to stop not only the intentional destruction of our
    border, but what was happening to our kids as a result. I know,
    Mr. Bell, you have a history. You worked at DOJ in the Human
    Trafficking Bureau as Chief Counsel for the Select Panel on
    Infant Lives. Certainly, I know that you value life.
        I introduced Senate Bill 1997, the Stop GAPS Act, which
    would require the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), and HHS
    to work with states, with placing children with sponsors.
    Because one of the things that we found was that they were not
    even telling our Department of Children and Families when they
    were bringing these kids in and dumping them off into these
    situations. They were clandestine flights in the middle of the
    night. They would not give us information. Even we tried to
    subpoena them for information. They refused. They would not let
    their people talk to us. I mean, think about that. It was
    almost as though they were hiding what they were trying to do.
        I want to make sure not only do we address the fact that
    they lost track of tens of thousands of children that were
    placed in dangerous situation, I hope we can figure out a way
    to make sure this never happens again. If it does start
    happening, that there's someone that's watching for that, and
    can make sure that we are shoring up any safeguards that we
    have.
        A former HHS official said that they looked into this and
    that person said they not only verified, but corroborated what
    was going on in Florida, and they found even more evidence of
    fraud with placement and sponsorships of unaccompanied minor
    children. They never did anything about it, even after they had
    the information.
        It's my hope that we get someone in there that understands
    how important it is for oversight, regardless of who's in the
    White House, and if a President does something like that again
    and causes harm to our children, that someone will step in and
    end it. It does not take a State AG to be fighting a battle
    from one of our states.
        Mr. Bell, I know you may not have been briefed on all of
    the circumstances of the case, but I do I have your commitment
    to review this?
        Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator. Not only do you have my
    commitment, but I have been in all of those ORR facilities when
    I was a DOJ lawyer in charge of the trafficking program. I have
    interviewed 250 trafficking victims. I think somebody made a
    decision somewhere, and that decision, let that child go to the
    wrong place. I believe what an IG would do is find out who was
    in charge of that person, how that decision was made, and take
    the types of steps so this never happens again.
        Senator Moody. I have your commitment to review that
    process, and make sure that you are holding the agency
    accountable to its responsibilities under the law?
        Mr. Bell. Yes, you do.
        Senator Moody. Thank you so much.
        Chairman Paul. Senator Peters.
        Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Bell, in your
    opening statement that you provided for the record, you pledge,
    ``to support the initiatives of President Trump and Secretary
    Kennedy.'' Then, you go on to say you are going to support,
    ``their courageous and innovative change of direction for the
    improved healthcare of all Americans.''
        It's unusual to see those kinds of quotes from an IG who is
    supposed to be a watchdog, supposed to hold folks accountable.
    Traditionally, we do not see opening statements for an IG that
    is saying, ``I am excited to be a cheerleader for the
    administration. I am going to be there cheering them all, every
    step of the way.'' That's not the job of an IG.
        I think you know that the idea is to hold the
    administrations accountable. Just as you were asked by the
    Senator Moody, to hold administrations accountable, you have to
    hold them accountable, not be a cheerleader. What did you mean
    by those statements? Tell me that you will be an actual
    watchdog, which is the job of the IG.
        Mr. Bell. Thank you for the question, Senator, and thank
    you for the opportunity to explain what I mean by initiatives.
    I think the administration has several initiatives that any
    Congress would get behind, which is; improving the delivery of
    healthcare, improving the compliance with Federal statutes to
    make Medicare and Medicaid viable for the future by making sure
    the recipients are the intended recipients by Congress, to make
    sure that agencies don't go astray looking at potato chips and
    Elvis Presley.
        I think those initiatives are the good government, good
    delivery, waste, fraud, and abuse initiatives that both the
    Secretary and the President have announced. I also think the
    structure of the IG Statute calls for cooperation and
    collaboration with the agency head, calls for being a student
    of Congress and congressional intent. It also allows the IG to
    initiate investigations or management reviews on his or her own
    initiative. Those are the three places, the three buckets that
    IG initiatives can fall into.
        Certainly, many of those initiatives come from the
    administration, and I hope to be as helpful as I can in rooting
    out waste, fraud, and abuse.
        Senator Peters. I think we all agree those are good
    initiatives. Those are good initiatives for all of us to be
    focused on. But the job of the IG is to say, this initiative is
    not doing what it's intended to do. Sometimes that means
    calling out things that may be not flattering to an
    administration, but that's the job of an IG.
        You talk about one of the powers under the Act is that you
    can initiate investigations, which is really critical that you
    see something that doesn't seem right, your team sees something
    that isn't right, you begin the investigations. A President,
    regardless of the party, may not be happy with that initiative
    because it could be embarrassing or show a major flaw in what
    they are trying to do.
        Then, a President's going to call up an IG and say, ``Hey,
    stop this investigation,'' even though you have the power, in
    fact, the expectation that you will be the one initiating it.
    President Trump calls you and says, ``Stop it.'' Will you tell
    him, ``No, the law pretty clearly shows that I can initiate
    this investigation, and I believe that it's something that the
    taxpayers of the United States need to know what's going on.''
    Would you say no to President Trump?
        Mr. Bell. First of all, Senator, I do not have any
    experience in my time in the previous administration, nor do I
    know anyone who served in that administration or this one,
    who's been asked by the President to do anything unethical or
    illegal. I do not believe he would do that.
        Second, as you and I discussed yesterday in your office, I
    think an IG is supposed to, in the words of Senator Wyden, call
    balls and strikes without secretly wearing a jersey for the
    pitcher or the batter. I like that characterization, and that's
    what I would do, if confirmed
        Senator Peters. Mr. Walk, as a senior advisor to the USDA,
    you have been intimately involved in agency operations. As
    Inspector General, you would be likely tasked with conducting
    oversight of these very issues. But given you are clearly
    partisan work, I do not believe we can trust that you are going
    to be able to do that in a free, nonpartisan way.
        Will you recuse yourself from any matters on which you
    personally worked on at the USDA that would give us more trust
    if you would commit right now to recuse yourself from anything
    that you worked on at USDA?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, I appreciate the question. Recusals are
    very fact-specific. What I will commit to doing is to follow
    all Federal laws applicable to Federal employees, all
    regulations. I also look to applicable guidance such as from
    the Office of Government Ethics (OGE), as well as professional
    standards, including for accounting and independence, as well
    as for the legal profession.
        I also intend to consult with our IG counsel. We also have
    a group, the Office of Compliance and Integrity, whose job is
    to make sure that our products are done in a way that meets
    professional standards. I will also work with them as well to
    make sure there's integrity in our work.
        Senator Peters. Let's hope that's the case. Thank you, Mr.
    Chair.
        Chairman Paul. Thank you both for your willingness to
    serve. I thought we would take a moment and let you introduce
    your family, if you would like. Mr. Walk?
        Mr. Walk. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am grateful to be joined
    here by my wife, Ruth, my four daughters; Joanna, Phoebe,
    Hannah, and Grace.
        Chairman Paul. Wonderful. Mr. Bell?
        Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator. Senator, I am joined by my
    wife, Maryam Bell, a beacon of good advice, kindness, and
    patience. We have both worked here in Washington since 1982,
    and she's with me here today.
        Chairman Paul. That's why you have been married so long
    because you appreciate that advice, right?
        Mr. Bell. That's correct.
        Chairman Paul. There have been accusations made that you
    may be partisan, that you may be people that are just
    diabolically going to do Republican things and sort out, search
    after Democrats.
        I would like to ask you both individually; will you look at
    waste and fraud, and at the parameters of your job, and
    administer it independent of whether the targets might be
    Republican or Democrat appointees?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, I will.
        Mr. Bell. Yes, Senator, I will.
        Chairman Paul. Is there anything else that either of you
    would like to mention about your jobs that we have not gotten
    to that you would like to bring forward to the Committee? The
    one of the programs that I think will be under Mr. Walk's
    purview is the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program
    (SNAP). The GAO found that 12 percent of the payments from the
    SNAP program, about $10 billion, were improper. Do you have any
    ideas, Mr. Walk, about how we would go about or how an
    Inspector General would go about looking at fraud in the SNAP
    program?
        Mr. Walk. Mr. Chair, thank you for that question. As
    Ranking Member Peters mentioned, I did serve for four months as
    acting Deputy Undersecretary of USDA's Food, Nutrition, and
    Consumer Services (FNCS). And SNAP fraud was one of the issues
    that I was very much interested in.
        I believe we should make sure that we are continuing to
    look at internal controls to be sure that the actions that are
    being taken are appropriate for the types of fraud that's
    happening today because we see it at all levels. From the
    application, to the retail stores, as well as outside folks who
    might be skimming. That's been a real problem. We have had a
    lot stolen through skimming from international gangs.
        I think we want to make sure that we have the internal
    controls in place that we are doing more in terms of our
    management evaluations to be sure the States are following the
    guidance.
        Mr. Walk. There's also, I think, room for improvements in
    terms of technology. I am sure you all know that right now,
    SNAP is selling the Electronic Benefit Transfer (EBT) card for
    the most case which is essentially a magnetic strip. It's well
    behind other payment systems that would have a chip. It's low
    hanging fruit, and that does make it easier and more enticing
    for folks to try to skim from that.
        I think we do want to look at technology and how we can
    improve technology, and how we can use technology to identify
    fraud and identify the patterns so that we can go after it. I
    am happy to say we have an Office of Analytics and Innovation
    at OIG that has been doing some good work in that area. I would
    love to explore, we can do even more.
        Finally, I think it's important to increase the
    consequences for fraud. I think we can do more in terms of
    pursuing Federal criminal prosecutions, and making sure that we
    are building the cases for the Department of Justice to go
    after those who commit fraud with taxpayer dollars.
        Chairman Paul. Senator Blumenthal.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BLUMENTHAL

        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the
    Committee. Welcome, to your families, and thank you for your
    willing to serve our country as Inspectors General of
    Agriculture, and Health and Human Services. You play a critical
    role in ensuring the integrity and effectiveness of our
    government.
        Mr. Walk, we were talking or you were talking to the
    chairman about the SNAP program, and we understand or we have
    heard that the Secretary of Agriculture has said that there has
    to be reapplication on the part of all current SNAP recipients
    now. Is that your understanding?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, I have only read that in the news in the
    same way. I have not had any conversations with the Secretary.
        Senator Blumenthal. But you are a senior advisor to her.
        Mr. Walk. That's right.
        Senator Blumenthal. Right. You have not heard anything
    about it?
        Mr. Walk. I, generally, would say I know what has been
    reported, and I understand that to be accurate.
        Senator Blumenthal. There is no legal requirement that all
    of the current SNAP beneficiaries reapply as though they had
    not been receiving SNAP benefits, is there?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, my understanding is that there's a
    requirement for recertification, but in terms of retaking folks
    off unless they reapply, I don't know that there's a
    requirement for that.
        Senator Blumenthal. There is none, correct?
        Mr. Walk. Not that I am aware of.
        Senator Blumenthal. OK. The recertification is different
    from the application process, correct?
        Mr. Walk. It is.
        Senator Blumenthal. Recertification is done periodically
    every six months, depending on what the State decides is
    appropriate?
        Mr. Walk. Yes.
        Senator Blumenthal. Will you commit that you will make sure
    that all of the 42 million current SNAP recipients and
    beneficiaries receive these benefits, if they are entitled to
    do so under current law, and that the approval process is done
    expeditiously and timely so that they get those benefits as
    they need them to put food on the table?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, thank you for the question. As I said, I
    did spend four months at FNCS. One of the initiatives I took on
    in that short time was to send to the Governors a letter that
    we expected timeliness in terms of the 30-day, 7-day period of
    completing the approval process for the applications. That is
    an important issue to me, even on that side. Of course, as an
    IG, my role would not be to be in the policy role, but as IG, I
    would have exercise----
        Senator Blumenthal. If there are delays, it would be your
    responsibility to assure that the approvals are done in a
    timely and important way because people depend on the SNAP
    benefits, literally, to feed their children. Correct?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, I agree that the IG should continue to
    practice effective oversight over the SNAP application process.
        Senator Blumenthal. If I come to you as a Member of the
    Senate, and I say the information available to me is that there
    are delays and bureaucratic hangups, you would look into it,
    correct?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, that's correct. IG Act says I need to
    keep Congress fully and currently informed.
        Senator Blumenthal. I am going to hold you to that
    commitment.
        Let me ask you about foodborne illness. There was an
    incident involving Boar's Head contamination with listeria that
    caused 60 people to be hospitalized, and 10 tragically to lose
    their lives. Those deaths never should have happened.
        At the time, I asked the then Inspector General, Phyllis
    Fong, to investigate the agency's handling of repeated sanitary
    violation that were founded Boar's Head plants. As far as I
    know, the investigation is still ongoing. Can you confirm that
    fact?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, I do not know, but I can take a look at
    that and get back to your staff.
        Senator Blumenthal. If you could, I would appreciate it. If
    it is ongoing, will you commit to ensure that the Office of
    Inspector General will continue to independently investigate
    this incident and hold Boar's head accountable for its role in
    the outbreak?
        Mr. Walk. Yes, sir.
        Senator Blumenthal. Let me ask you, Mr. Bell. What
    assurance can you give us on this Committee that you will be
    independent? I know that you have been asked about this issue
    before, that you will be independent of the leadership of the
    Department of Health and Human Services, in light of your
    statements and your political involvement on some of the issues
    that come before the department.
        Mr. Bell. Senator, thank you for that question. Senator, in
    graduate school, I read Aristotle's Rhetoric, and I know the
    difference between political rhetoric and the type of evidence
    that a Federal prosecutor accumulates for litigation.
        All of my work product that is rhetorical or advocacy-
    oriented, has been in political campaigns. All of my work
    product, either in congressional oversight or while at DOJ, has
    followed prosecutorial standards' high quality of evidence,
    corroborated evidence, documented evidence. My record speaks
    for itself.
        Just because a product offended some interest to some
    group, does not mean it did not follow the highest standards of
    investigation. I do not believe, on the investigative side, I
    have a single partisan product on my record.
        Chairman Paul. Senator time is expired. Senator Hawley.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY

        Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Congratulations to the nominees. Thank you for being here.
        Mr. Walk, let me just start with you. Give us a sense, if
    you would, give me a sense of your priorities, if confirmed,
    what you think are the major efforts, lines of effort that you
    would pursue. Just give me a sense of what you think the lay of
    the land is.
        Mr. Walk. Senator, thank you. The top, I would say, three
    priorities would be public health and safety, integrity of our
    programs, and also, the national security programs.
        Senator Hawley. On the national security programs, what do
    you have in mind, in particular?
        Mr. Walk. Senator, you may know that the Secretary has
    released a farm security plan that highlights kind of the
    linkage between homeland security and agriculture. We have
    seen, for example foreign investments in the United States
    related to agriculture, both in foreign purchases as well as
    companies where we are getting data, it seems shipped to export
    it to foreign adversaries. I think we need, as we take actions
    on those kinds of things, for the IG to make sure that it's
    done in an appropriate way.
        Other issues that I think deserves a look is research
    security. I am sure, as you may know, in the last six months
    there's been at least two breaches at the University of
    Michigan involving biological materials that have a link to
    agriculture. One is Fusarium, which the FBI has characterized
    as an agroterrorism weapon, and the other is a ringworm, which
    can cause pretty serious diseases to livestock. Both were at
    the hands of foreign adversaries; I will just say Chinese
    nationals.
        There seems to be a pattern there. In other schools as
    well, where we need to be looking closer at research security,
    particularly when it comes from USDA. Is that money staying
    within the United States, or is it somehow supporting foreign
    adversaries?
        There's also, I think, an interest in terms of making sure
    that we increase our independence so that we are not dependent
    on foreign nations for key agricultural inputs such as
    fertilizer. I would view all of that within the national
    security rubric.
        Senator Hawley. Very good. Mr. Bell, let me just switch to
    you, if I could. I want to talk to you for just a second about
    rural hospitals, particularly cybersecurity as it relates to
    rural hospitals. About 40 percent of the hospitals in my State
    are rural. Frequently, these hospitals do not have the budget
    to stand up a cybersecurity effort, and as a consequence, they
    are frequently the targets of cybersecurity attacks.
        That's one of the reasons that Senator Hassan and I have
    introduced a bill called the Rural Hospital Cybersecurity
    Enhancement Act, which would direct HHS to create a
    comprehensive workforce strategy to train and develop
    cybersecurity personnel and professionals to help rural
    hospitals in particular.
        Now, I ask you this because if this legislation were to
    pass, the Office of Inspector General would be tasked with
    auditing how HHS develops and rolls out the cybersecurity
    strategy, including verifying that the training goes to the
    neediest hospitals, holding grantees accountable for
    improvements in defenses.
        If you were confirmed, can you commit to me that you would
    prioritize oversight of legislation like the Rural Hospital
    Cybersecurity Enhancement as part of HHS's broader rural
    hospital or rural health efforts?
        Mr. Bell. Senator Hawley, thank you for the question. I
    concur. That's a serious problem. Having spent four years the
    National Counterterrorism Center, I am aware of the dangers of
    cybersecurity, and I will commit to sit down with you and
    figure out how to implement that, if confirmed, and if passed.
    But I believe that would be a top priority even if the
    legislation doesn't pass.
        Senator Hawley. Very good. Give me a sense of, in just our
    few remaining seconds here, what you see as the other top
    priorities and lines of effort that, should you be confirmed.
        Mr. Bell. I think 80 percent of the IG staff is dedicated
    to Medicare and Medicaid fraud. There's a lot of modernization
    that needs to take place. One of the first things I would look
    at is what type of payment tracker software is the office using
    in order to look across data bases to find fraud? I will bring
    to bear my background at the Department of Justice in stopping
    criminal conduct.
        It's important to just to rack up more cases or more money,
    but to change behavior. Behavior of people doing the fraud
    needs to be changed. I would design advice and initiatives to
    change the behavior of people committing fraud so they don't
    decide not to do so.
        Senator Hawley. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Paul. Thank you to the nominees for your time
    today and your commitment to work with the Committee. The
    nominees have filed responses to biographical and financial
    questionnaires\1\ and had their financial statements reviewed
    by the Office of Government Ethics.\2\ Without objection, this
    information will be made part of the hearing record with the
    exception of the nominees' financial data, which are on file
    with the committee.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        \1\ The information for Mr. Walk appears in the Appendix on page
    19.
        \2\ The information for Mr. Bell appears in the Appendix on page
    53.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Due to the quick turnaround between this hearing and the
    markup tomorrow, the hearing record will remain open until 5
    p.m. today, November 19th.
        The hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 10:46 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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