    [Senate Hearing 119-197]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 119-197

                           BEYOND THE SMASH AND GRAB:
                     CRIMINAL NETWORKS AND ORGANIZED THEFT

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                 JULY 15, 2025

                                   __________

                              Serial No. J-119-29

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                            www.judiciary.senate.gov
                                www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    61-886                    WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                      CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman
    LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois,
    JOHN CORNYN, Texas                       Ranking Member
    MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
    TED CRUZ, Texas                      AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
    THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
    JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
    ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri               ALEX PADILLA, California
    KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            PETER WELCH, Vermont
    ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ADAM B. SCHIFF, California

                 Kolan Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
             Joe Zogby, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page

    Grassley, Hon. Charles E.........................................     1
    Durbin, Hon. Richard J...........................................     2

                                   WITNESSES

    Glawe, David J...................................................     5
        Prepared statement...........................................    30
        Responses to written questions...............................    80
    Lemm, Donna......................................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................    42
        Responses to written questions...............................    93
    McBride, Scott...................................................     8
        Prepared statement...........................................    64
        Responses to written questions...............................    96
    Summer, Stephan..................................................    10
        Prepared statement...........................................    71
        Responses to written questions...............................   105

                                    APPENDIX

    Items submitted for the record...................................   117

                           BEYOND THE SMASH AND GRAB:
                             CRIMINAL NETWORKS AND
                                ORGANIZED THEFT

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, JULY 15, 2025

                                  United States Senate,
                                    Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice at 10:16 a.m., in
    Room 216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Charles E.
    Grassley, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Grassley [presiding], Cornyn, Blackburn,
    Britt, Moody, Durbin, Whitehouse, Klobuchar, Coons, Hirono, and
    Padilla.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES E. GRASSLEY,
                 A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF IOWA

        Chairman Grassley. Good morning, everybody. Today's hearing
    addresses the continued rise in organized retail and supply
    chain crime and the criminal networks that are involved in that
    criminal activity. We've all seen videos of mobs ransacking
    stores of thousands of dollars of goods and doing it in a very
    short period of time. Somebody measured one time, 2 minutes.
        The reality is, some of the worst criminal organizations,
    including cartels, terrorists, and human traffickers use this
    type of crime funding their misdeeds or launder ill-gotten
    proceeds. These groups steal large quantities of merchandise
    from retail stores and the supply chain then attempt to resell
    these stolen items online through other illicit channels.
        One Homeland Security Investigation operation called King
    of Thieves uncovered organized retail crime ring, which had
    sent millions of dollars in criminal proceeds overseas. That
    same group finance coyote fees for deported individuals to
    return to the United States.
        Earlier this year in Katy, Texas, law enforcement
    discovered that mall thieves were linked to cartels responsible
    for over $100 million in thefts across the United States. So
    far, law enforcement officials have linked 98 individuals to
    this ring. This threat has evolved to our supply chains
    exposing significant vulnerabilities.
        The Justice Department recently indicted 11 defendants,
    including 9 illegal immigrants with stealing nearly $500
    million dollars' worth of Nike shoes. The defendants' new
    valuable goods were in a train car based on visible high
    security locks. The defendants cut the air hose to the train's
    braking system, which can cause derailments and serious
    injuries. Criminals see this type of crime as a low risk, very
    high reward way to fund their enterprises with no regard for
    the people that they endanger.
        It's not just luxury goods these thieves are after. Items
    in food and beverage categories are among the most stolen in
    supply chain crime. These goods are transported in specific
    ways to maintain food safety from infant formula to basic
    groceries. Once a seal is broken and a single pallet of goods
    is stolen, the entire container is no longer safe for
    consumption.
        Congress must treat these acts for what they are. They're
    acts of violent, sophisticated criminals exploiting a patchwork
    system. Efforts to address this sweeping problem through civil
    actions are insufficient. Criminal action must be met with
    criminal punishment. Federal coordination is needed to share
    information, promote collaborative investigations, and fully
    address this sweeping cross jurisdictional crime that impacts
    all Americans.
        Homeland Security investigators estimate that the average
    American family will pay more than $500 annually in additional
    costs due to the impact of organized retail crime. This is one
    of the many reasons 38 States attorneys general support Senator
    Cortez Masto and my bill. The bill goes by the title of
    Combating Organized Retail Crime.
        Many of the signatories on this letter are from Members of
    this Committee's home State. They wrote, ``This legislation
    would provide the necessary resources at the State and Federal
    level to bring organizations and individuals behind this
    nationwide problem to justice.''
        So, without objection, I'll enter the letter into the
    record.
        [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley. And now, I call on Ranking Member,
    Senator Durbin, for his opening statement.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,
               A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

        Senator Durbin. Thanks, Chairman Grassley for holding this
    hearing to look into large scale theft of retail products that
    are then sold to unsuspecting consumers, often on online
    marketplaces.
        This is not a new problem. Back in 2008, I met with Home
    Depot. They told me the story about a drill that they sold
    exclusively that was being found for sale new in the box, and
    at a discount by sellers online. It had to have been stolen
    some part of manufacturing or sales process, and it wasn't just
    tools. This was and still is happening in all kinds of
    products, all kinds of stores, including cosmetics,
    electronics, clothes, over-the-counter, drugs, toys, and as the
    Chairman said, food and other things.
        I remember when the CEO of Walgreens came in to see me
    based out of Illinois, and I said, ``Now, why do I have to call
    a clerk at your drug store when I want to buy underarm
    deodorant so they can unlock the shelf and I can buy the
    underarm deodorant? Are these so precious that they have to
    have special surveillance and guarding?'' And he said the fact
    of the matter is retail theft takes these things in volume and
    sells them in volume. And of course, it's not the individual.
    It's likely to be the one to sell it. It's some sort of an
    operation, which we're going to talk about today.
        This is a problem that affects everybody. Higher prices,
    lost jobs, and lost community investment when shops that can't
    keep up with the rising cause of theft are force to close their
    doors. I've worked on this issue for a long time. As Chairman
    of the Committee years ago, I held a hearing on cleaning up
    online marketplace to protect consumers from stolen,
    counterfeit, and unsafe goods. Not long after, Congress passed
    my Informed Consumers Act bipartisan bill I introduced with
    Senator Bill Cassidy, Republican of Louisiana.
        This law requires online marketplaces to collect, verify,
    and disclose information about high volume sellers who offer
    new or unused consumer products for sale on the platform.
    Remember that Home Depot drill that I talked to you about
    earlier when they found out that it was being sold online and
    clearly had been stolen? They contacted the online operation
    and said, this is a stolen product. There's no doubt about it.
    And the online operation said, ``So what? That's not our
    responsibility. That's somebody else's.''
        Well, this bill, the Informed Bill changed that. The
    Informed Consumers Act is guided by three principles,
    verification, transparency, and accountability. If someone's
    going to sell large volume of goods online on the marketplace,
    they should tell the marketplace who they are. Home Depot
    couldn't figure out who was selling these drills. The online
    operation wouldn't identify their user. The sellers should be
    verified.
        Second, if a product sold online and turns out to be a
    fake, stolen, or dangerous, consumers should be able to report
    it and find the seller, and the marketplace must to ensure the
    seller can't just disappear and pop up later with a new account
    name. Third, if a consumer orders a product from one seller
    online and the order's actually filled by another company, the
    marketplace should let the consumer know.
        I'm sad to report to you that despite 2 years since we
    passed this bill, the Federal Trade Commission has literally
    dropped the ball on enforcing the Informed Consumer Act. It's
    been more than 2 years since this law went in effect. The
    Federal Trade Commission hasn't even promulgated regulations in
    2 years to implement it.
        The FTC has received hundreds of complaints regarding
    violations of this law. But how many enforcement actions has
    this agency taken? None. Zero. This is unacceptable and it must
    change. The Federal Trade Commission has to step up and enforce
    the law that we passed and the President signed.
        In the meantime, State and local governments have stepped
    up their efforts. In May, in my home State of Illinois, Cook
    County Regional Organized Crime Task force brought together
    more than 100 law enforcement agencies and 30 major retailers
    for a crackdown that resulted in hundreds of arrests across 28
    States. That that is a success we must build on.
        Federal law enforcement also has an important role to play,
    but we must acknowledge this administration has announced
    different priorities instead of combating crimes. Like I
    described, the Trump administration has diverted critical
    resources toward the President's mass deportation agenda.
    Homeland Security Investigations, better known as HSI, plays a
    leading role in combating criminal networks and organized
    crime, including organized retail theft. But under this
    administration, HSI has been diverted toward rounding up
    immigrants, many of whom pose no threat whatsoever to this
    country.
        According to one recent report, and I quote, ``HSI,
    supervisors have waived agents off new cases so they have more
    time to make immigration enforcement arrest.'' One veteran
    agent said, ``No drug cases, no human trafficking, no child
    exploitation. It's infuriating.'' Instead, he said, ``HSI is
    arresting gardeners.''
        These are not the actions of an administration serious
    about combating crime, diverting Federal resources and dangers
    Americans, and leaves us less equipped to target and disrupt
    criminals like those in organized retail theft. We have to have
    an open and honest discussion about the role of the Federal
    Government in reducing organized retail crime. I look forward
    to that dialog today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley. Thank you. Before I introduce our
    witnesses, I'll say thank you for the time that you put in to
    prepare for this and going out of your way to be with us to
    help us solve this very important issue.
        Our first witness, Honorable David J. Glawe, President,
    Chief Executive Officer, National Insurance Crime Bureau. In
    this role, Mr. Glawe leads a united effort among property
    casualty insurance companies, law enforcement agencies, car
    rental companies, and other partners to combat insurance fraud.
        He served in the intelligence community in law enforcement
    for 20 years or more before retiring from public service. He
    was the Senate-confirmed Under Secretary of Homeland Security
    for Intelligence Analysis, and he happens to come from the
    State of Iowa.
        Ms. Donna Lemm is Chief Strategy officer of IMC Logistics,
    an intermodal carrier, and the largest marine short distance
    transport provider in our country. She's a known leader in the
    industry, having worked in logistics and transportation for
    over 30 years. IMC is based in Memphis, Tennessee, one of the
    Nation's largest freight hubs.
        Scott McBride, the Chief Global Asset Protection Officer
    for American Eagle Outfitters. After serving as a Marine, Mr.
    McBride started his career at American Eagle as a store
    associate in 1993. He's been with the company obviously for
    more than 30 years. Mr. McBride is also chairperson of the Loss
    Prevention Asset Protection Council at the National Retail
    Federation. He recently received Loss Prevention Magazine,
    Founders Award for Excellence in Leadership.
        District Attorney Summer Stephan. Ms. Stephan is the
    current President of the National District Attorney's
    Association. She's the district attorney for San Diego County,
    California, the second largest DA office in California, and the
    fifth largest in the United States.
        As district attorney, Ms. Stephan created a specialized
    team to investigate and prosecute organized retail crime cases,
    working closely with businesses and law enforcement. She's
    recognized as the national leader in combating human
    trafficking and sex crimes, as well as organized retail theft.
        Now, I'm going to ask you folks to stand so we swear you
    in.
        [Witnesses are sworn in.]
        Chairman Grassley. They all have said yes. Now, you may
    give your opening statement from Glawe across the table there.
    So, please begin, Mr. Glawe.

      STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID J. GLAWE, PRESIDENT & CEO, NATIONAL
              INSURANCE CRIME BUREAU, OAK BROOK, ILLINOIS

        Mr. Glawe. Chairman Grassley, Ranking Member Durbin and
    Members of the Committee, thank you for the invitation to
    testify and holding this important hearing on organized retail
    and cargo theft.
        I'm the President and Chief Executive Officer of the
    National Insurance Crime Bureau. NICB is the Nation's premier
    non-for-profit organization committed to detecting, preventing,
    and deterring insurance crime and fraud through intelligence-
    driven operations. NICB has been fighting insurance-related
    crimes since 1912. We are supported by over 1,200 property and
    casualty insurance companies.
        For nearly 115 years, NICB has been at the intersection of
    insurance industry and law enforcement, serving as the hub for
    information sharing to protect consumers, including for reports
    of suspected insurance crime and fraud. In fact, NICB is
    codified by name into many States' insurance crime reporting
    laws. This gives NICB unique visibility into organized crime
    trends nationwide.
        Equipped with this expertise, NICB trains and assists law
    enforcements in the investigation of crimes affecting consumers
    as well as our members at the Federal level. NICB is especially
    proud of our longstanding relationships and partnership with
    the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau
    of Investigation. As an example, NICB special agents working
    with our Federal partners leveraged our expertise on vehicle
    identification numbers, also known as VINs, to help identify
    the vehicles in the 1993 World Trade Center and Oklahoma City
    bombings. NICB also assisted State and local law enforcement to
    recover over 6,000 vehicles in wake of the Maui and Los Angeles
    wildfires.
        These public and private partnerships continue today and
    are joint efforts to combat threats that transcend State and
    national borders, including organized thieves. These
    sophisticated transna-tional criminal organizations, which
    effectively operate as billion-dollar corporations profit from
    these crimes, cargo theft exploits, supply chain vulnerability.
        Its big business, big money, and big opportunity. The
    impacts are felt at kitchen tables across the country through
    higher costs. In 2024, cargo theft increased to historic highs,
    up 27 percent from 2023 with estimated losses exceeding $1
    billion. This year, we expect it to rise another 22 percent.
    Other estimates suggest that cargo losses may reach up to $35
    billion annually. In the past 18 months, NICB has assisted in
    more than 240 cargo theft investigations leading to more to
    over 70 recoveries valued at nearly $40 million.
        Cargo thefts are not the result of small operations. These
    are well-funded, sophisticated criminal businesses, which
    include Mexican drug cartels as well as operations out of West
    Africa, China, and Eastern Europe. Often secured stolen goods,
    everything from sports drinks to sports cars are routinely
    exported into illicit markets to finance other criminal
    activities including drugs, weapons, and even terrorism.
        As an example, NICB recently assisted law enforcement in
    uncovering a cargo theft ring that used business email
    compromises to successfully export stolen industrial equipment
    to resale overseas. In 2024, we assisted in a multi-state
    investigation that resulted in more than 50 arrests and the
    recovery of vehicles to include weapons, drugs, and more than
    $8 million of cargo stolen from a major railroad. And recently,
    NICB assisted U.S. Customs and Border Protection in
    intercepting stolen TVs that were bound for Panama.
        NICBs investigations confirmed that transnational criminal
    organizations are exploiting supply chain vulnerabilities by
    posing as legitimate or fictitious carriers through identity
    theft and synthetic IDs. These complex tactics compel a
    coordinated response from the public and private sectors.
        In the public sector, deterrents and coordination are
    critical. Criminals currently benefit from a legal framework
    with inadequate deterrence and fragmented law enforcement
    coordination. The private sector must commit to stronger
    carrier vetting protocols and adopting other industry standards
    for preventing theft. Congress can help by passing the
    bipartisan Combating Organized Retail Crime Act.
        CORCA would increase deterrence by enhancing current
    criminal statutes. The bill also establishes a coordination
    center within the Department of Homeland Security. Currently,
    there is no central hub for intelligence sharing and operation
    coordination, thus making it difficult to confront the full
    scope of the threat. A coordination center would address this
    gap. Homeland Security Investigations is well suited for this
    role given its expertise in transnational criminal
    organizations.
        Public-private partnerships are essential. NICB stands at
    the intersection to support the center with any requested
    expertise, intelligence, operational support, and resources.
    NICB applauds the bipartisan work in the Senate to combat
    transnational criminal organizations and cargo theft, which
    harms all consumers.
        Thank you again for this opportunity to testify, and I look
    forward to answering your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Glawe appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley [off mic]. Thank you, Mr. Glawe. Now, Ms.
    Lemm.

    STATEMENT OF DONNA LEMM, CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER, IMC LOGISTICS,
                        COLLIERVILLE, TENNESSEE

        Ms. Lemm. Chairman Grassley, Ranking Member Durbin, and
    Committee Members, thank you for the opportunity to testify
    about the exponential rise of cargo theft. We need your help.
        My name is Donna Lemm, and I am the Chief Strategy Officer
    for IMC Logistics. Our company is a nationwide intermodal and
    drayage provider. IMC and our ATA motor carriers are on the
    front line of this crisis.
        A few years ago, cargo theft was barely on my company's
    radar. In 2021, we had 5 cargo thefts reported. In 2024, we had
    876 cargo thefts reported. That's alone a 17,520 percent
    increase. The landscape has shifted, moving from criminals to
    organized theft groups sabotaging our supply chain.
        So much of our cargo moves intermodal. Our partner
    railroads share with us drone footage of thieves cutting air
    brakes, containers thrown across the desert and criminals
    emptying these containers in minutes. These containers arrive
    for motor carriers pickup and our large intermodal rail hubs,
    Chicago, Memphis, St. Louis, Kansas City, and Dallas.
        These contents and containers sometimes arriving empty or
    with contents half gone. Cargo theft impacts all of us,
    including our food and agricultural shippers who are caught in
    this explosion of organized thefts. Full trailer loads of food
    and beverages that have been targeted have been stolen and
    gone, agricultural exports by rail, sadly seeing loads
    pilfered, seals cut, our cargo spoiled, damaged, and lost.
        It becomes so challenging to pinpoint where the theft
    happens. In these interstate commerce moves, arrests and
    prosecutions are nearly impossible. Meanwhile, consumer prices
    and insurance rates soar. The level of violence surrounding
    these acts becomes more threatening.
        On a local level cargo theft has also taken a very large
    toll. Just 8 weeks ago, our Memphis terminal was stormed by
    seven vehicles. Our gates were cut breached, criminals went
    straight to a specific area of our terminal. They were
    interrupted by our security team, but not before they had
    stolen $25,000 worth of merchandise in just 3 minutes.
        In our Riverside, California terminal, similar stories.
    Three masked criminals cut our gates in broad daylight and
    opened six containers before interrupted by our guard. We're
    talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars stolen in
    incidents across the United States with no resolution.
        How can we connect the dots at local, State, and Federal
    levels on these cargo crimes? Here's an example of the value if
    we do. We had two containers of appliances stolen in St. Louis.
    It was reported for insurance purposes, but no arrests were
    made. Several months later, we got a call from the ATF. They
    had stumbled across our appliances in a warehouse that they
    raided. These refrigerators were being stuffed with cash to
    smuggle money across the southern border.
        This is not just an insurance matter. Cargo crimes, if
    connected, can help us link these operations orchestrated by
    transnational criminals. Brazen heist like these put our whole
    supply chain and our workers in harm's way. Our employees and
    our drivers are our most valuable asset. We invest millions of
    dollars in multi-layered security, including surveillance
    equipment, vehicle barriers, tracking technology, engine
    immobilizers, SOS buttons for our drivers and for our guards.
        We also have very advanced cyber security protocol, but
    these criminal groups are highly organized. They have
    formidable cyber capabilities of their own. One fraudster stole
    a customer's identity to place an illegitimate delivery order
    with us, and we are sending unknowingly valuable goods right
    into the hands of these bad actors. Another group made
    counterfeit driver IDs and fake placards on the side of the
    truck to impersonate a real motor carrier. They stole five
    loads and chassis valued at more than a million dollars.
        Rising cargo theft and incidents like ours are happening to
    my counterparts across the trucking industry and across our
    supply chain. We cannot stay silent. Cargo theft will continue
    to metastasize unless Congress recognizes the severity of the
    problem, law enforcement devoting sufficient time and
    resources, and the Federal Government taking a leading role in
    coordinating enforcement efforts.
        This is why the trucking industry is enormously grateful to
    Senator Grassley and Cortez Masto for their leadership in
    introducing the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act. This bill
    would put law enforcement's coordination on par with their
    sophisticated criminal adversaries and safeguard our national
    security. Cargo theft is robbing our supply chain to the tune
    of $35 billion per year. Who is harmed? All of us?
        I thank the Committee for their focus on this issue, and I
    look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Lemm appears as a submission
    for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley. Thank you, Ms. Lemm.
        [Off mic.]
        Now, Mr. McBride.

       STATEMENT OF SCOTT McBRIDE, CHIEF GLOBAL ASSET PROTECTION
         OFFICER, AMERICAN EAGLE OUTFITTERS INC., PITTSBURGH,
                              PENNSYLVANIA

        Mr. McBride. Chairman Grassley, Ranking Member Durbin and
    esteemed Members of the Committee thank you for the opportunity
    to address this critical issue of organized retail crime.
    Chairman Grassley, thank you to you and Senator Cortez Masto
    for reintroducing the CORCA Act of 2025 and inviting me to
    testify.
        My name is Scott McBride. I'm the Chief Global Asset
    Protection Officer for American Eagle Outfitters, a national
    retail company that operates stores and online in all 50 States
    and represents 35,000 associates. I have also been an active
    member for almost 20 years of the National Retail Federation's
    Loss Prevention Council, having just completed a 2-year term as
    chair, and now currently, chair emeritus.
        Imagine an organization that leverages masters level
    business concepts to unite individuals toward a common goal,
    harnessing technology to their advantage and defining clear
    roles and responsibilities. You might think I'm describing a
    successful retail company, but this group also uses
    intimidation and violence, electronic countermeasures to hide
    from and evade detection, and manipulates financial instruments
    like gift cards, and executes nefarious reverse logistics
    tactics to sell or move stolen product offshore.
        ORC is far more than simple shoplifting. It represents a
    sophisticated criminal enterprise, perpetrating massive thefts,
    escalating violence against our associates and customers,
    crossing jurisdictional lines to avoid prosecution, and
    deploying professional-style tactics to fuel their nefarious
    operation, including reverse logistics, illicit liquidation,
    financial crimes and recruitment. They repeatedly victimize
    retail stores and disrupt our supply chains. This is how an
    organized retail crime group operates.
        While ORC is not new, its verdict, its veracity,
    sophistication, and frequency and geographic reach have
    dramatically increased in the post-Covid era. These groups use
    encrypted message apps to recruit thieves, coordinate the
    consolidation of stolen goods, liquidate them through illicit,
    online tertiary and black market sites, and even exfiltrate
    stolen product out of the country.
        Simultaneously, retailers have invested in new technology
    to provide a clear insight into the scope of these thefts.
    Pinpointing the last known location of the missing items,
    timestamping video of incidents, and enhancing collaboration
    with law enforcement in all jurisdictions.
        Despite our efforts, the problem continues to grow.
    Consider the recent case where Homeland Security Investigations
    working alongside State and local law enforcement successfully
    interdicted an exfiltration scheme. Stolen apparel was being
    collected for packing into SeaLand containers destined to cross
    the Texas/Mexico border.
        With the assistance of corporate investigators HSI
    recovered almost 2,000 pairs of American Eagle jeans with the
    other retailer merchandise totaling almost $2 million. The
    retail jeans were valued at $100,000 of that $2 million. RFID
    research revealed that those stolen AEO jeans came from 35
    stores in 13 States. Evidence of the seizure has already led to
    the discovery of a second arm of the same criminal group in
    Utah and has generated additional investigative leads in
    multiple States.
        Without the national reach of HSI, we would not have
    achieved such success in developing this ongoing case, a case
    far beyond the reach of any local understanding of law
    enforcement or agency, given the magnitude of the crimes and
    the multitude of jurisdictions.
        This example clearly underscores the urgent need for a
    national-level involvement to support local and State
    government, district attorneys, and State's attorneys general.
    National visibility and link analysis are crucial to
    comprehending the entire scope of the criminal involvement,
    enabling the appropriate agencies and offices to make their
    legal determinations commensurate with the full scope of the
    criminal activity and lead to the disruption and dismantling of
    organized crime groups.
        In conclusion, the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act is
    an essential missing layer. It would establish the Organized
    Retail Crime Group and Cargo Theft Coordination Center,
    bringing together Federal, State, local law enforcement with
    private sector experts to share vital information and
    collaborate on strategies to keep our stores and supply chain
    safe.
        Thank you for providing me this opportunity to tell our
    story, and I look forward to answering your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. McBride appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley [off mic].
        Chairman Grassley. Thank you very much, Mr. McBride. Ms.
    Stephan.

    STATEMENT OF HON. SUMMER STEPHAN, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL DISTRICT
    ATTORNEYS ASSOCIATION, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, SAN DIEGO COUNTY, SAN
                           DIEGO, CALIFORNIA

        Ms. Stephan. Good morning, Chairman Grassley, Ranking
    Member Durbin, and respected Members of the Committee. My name
    is Summer Steffan. I'm San Diego County's district attorney. I
    spent 28 years as a prosecutor fighting crime and violence in
    my community, rose through the ranks to become the elected
    district attorney, and currently, the chairwoman of the
    National District Attorney's Association. I bring both the
    national and local experience to you to help bring a local
    prosecutor's view and law enforcement view to this issue.
        I want to focus on a topic that we often hear about which
    is a characterization of this as being an economic crime. That
    is an absolute falsehood. Anybody who goes to a store, and
    looks in the eyes of the employees, and talks to them will see
    a very different picture in America than we've had in years
    past.
        I went to an Ulta store where there's 20-year-olds aspiring
    to become makeup artists. This is a store that is a chain that
    sells makeup, which is a target of organized retail theft. The
    way that those young clerks looked was very different than the
    past. They're looking over their shoulder, they're waiting for
    something bad to happen. And why they are waiting for that is
    because a crew of organized criminals attacked the Ulta stores
    and stole $700,000 worth.
        How do I know this? We were angry in San Diego to see the
    fear in our community. I brought an organized team working with
    ORCA, the Organized Retail Crime Theft Alliance, which has
    businesses and local and State officials. We were able to put
    together the case and solve it, and be able to bring people to
    justice and send them to the consequences that they deserved.
    However, all of the products were already lost. They were
    either sold online or sold internationally.
        The same thing. I went to a small store, Sunny Perfumes,
    the owner, and the immigrant in the San Ysidro area near the
    border. Again, this man had a different look. Not one of
    excitement like our business owners that our heart of America
    should have, rather a look of trepidation. He showed me his
    broken camera. He showed me how he has his cheap perfumes in
    the front knowing that someone's going to come in and take his
    product.
        So, what I want to focus on is not just that Capital One
    said this was a $45 billion industry. I want to focus on our
    fight in San Diego where we've tried to preserve jobs. We know
    that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has said that 650,000 jobs
    have been lost. These are jobs for people to work and provide
    for their family. This elevates it by itself to a national
    issue. But in addition to that, because of our efforts in San
    Diego, we've been able to identify and prosecute in 2 years,
    218 defendants engaged in organized theft, and the best we
    could do is get up to the fence level, which is the second
    level at a level of $2.6 million.
        Even despite these successful efforts and task forces that
    came together, we were unable to get beyond to be able to track
    the product and the shot callers that are providing the
    shopping list for people to go in and steal hundreds of
    sunglasses worth $350,000, or makeup, or jeans, or Legos as was
    our LA latest case. Or our recent $8 million jewelry heist
    where two other States suffered from the same crew, but it was
    unsolved because there was no alert system in the national
    scope that alerted us that their coming to us potentially.
        These were part of identified and were prosecuted as part
    of a South American transnational group that's been identified
    by the FBI. They've also been the people responsible for a
    hundred residential burglaries and in the cases we've done,
    these residential burglaries have linked to multi-State
    residential burglaries.
        Again, proving that this cannot be solved locally, it must
    be solved by local, State, and national, and this is why NDAA
    and San Diego DA's office supports the CORCA Bill because we
    need to bring bigger solutions to a really big problem that's
    affecting daily lives in every neighborhood. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Stephan appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley. Before I ask my questions, I got a
    couple things. So, one for 30 seconds. Last month, Matt Allen
    from the DEA told this Committee that criminal investigations
    go hand in hand with the Immigration Enforcement Homeland
    Security Investigation. Special Agent in Charge, Jason Stevens
    agreed that these crimes don't operate in isolation.
    Reconciliation made millions that is intended to and will allow
    agents to tackle violent crime including organized crime.
        Then, I also want to put in the record either statements or
    letters on this legislation from over two 260 member companies
    the National Retail Federation, the National Retail Industry
    Leaders Association, Ulta Beauty Incorporated, Home Depot,
    National Police Association, National Insurance Crime Bureau,
    Association of American Railroads, International Council of
    Shopping Centers, Intermodal Association of North America, and
    the American Trucking Association. Without objections, they
    will be entered in record.
        [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley. So, I'm going to start my questioning.
    Oh, by the way, I'll announce that on the Democratic side, the
    order is Durbin, Whitehouse, Klobuchar Blumenthal, Hirono. On
    my side, it's Grassley, Cornyn, Blackburn, Britt, Moody.
        Ms. Stephan, you're a strong supporter of my bill. You just
    made an outstanding statement. The bill amends current law to
    enable prosecution of organized retail and supply chain crime
    groups using interstate and foreign commerce and establishes
    the Organized Retail and Supply Chain Crime Coordinator Center
    at HSI.
        How would this legislation improve the ability of both law
    enforcement and prosecutors like you to tackle organized retail
    crime?
        Ms. Stephan. I believe that, Senator, that this would be a
    game changer because with the 218 organized crime cases that
    our office has done in San Diego, we have not been able to
    break through to what is going on nationally. We know these
    groups are operating nationally, internationally. In fact, the
    retailers tell us that their trackers are sounding off in the
    middle of the seas heading to different countries, but the
    investigations stop at the local level.
        This is a national problem that's draining the economic
    resources from Americans, hardworking Americans, but it's also
    draining the heart, and soul, and security of human beings. We
    have to be able to bring national solutions.
        We have multiple examples where national, State, local
    solutions work when we are dealing with, for example, elder
    scams. We brought a national task force with the FBI. That's
    the only way we were able to identify nationals from China that
    had organized these scams and were able to actually bring both
    RICO actions on the Federal and my office brought State
    actions. Fentanyl; we've been able to drop that in San Diego by
    37 percent. Absolutely would not happen without working with
    Customs and Border Protection on a fast team where we got that
    done.
        Chairman Grassley. Thank you. Mr. Glawe, you've served at
    the top level of law enforcement and intelligence. We know from
    DHS reports that cartels, terrorists, and human traffickers
    either facilitate organized retail and supply chain crime, or
    uses proceeds to finance other crimes.
        How are transnational criminal organization using organized
    retail and supply chain crime to further their criminal
    activities?
        Mr. Glawe. Chairman Grassley, thank you for the question.
    We are embedded with the Department of Homeland Security, HSI,
    and Customs and Border Protection in all the major ports and
    with the FBI, and we're embedded with all 50 fusion centers or
    50 States and multiple fusion centers as well. NICB as involved
    is the information hub for the insurance carriers the private
    sector and these organizations. We've done this for 115 years.
        We have seen goods moving overseas. In Mexico we
    repatriated over, 2,000 vehicles that ended up south of the
    border. We know that the stolen goods are going to West Africa
    and the Middle East. From my prior role as the Under Secretary
    and as an FBI agent here in Washington, we know that the supply
    chains are interdicted with Lebanese Hezbollah. We've seen that
    through Hamas, and we know that Mexican drug cartels are
    involved with the goods going south of the border.
        A coordination center, a center for excellence to
    coordinate intelligence from the private sector and my partners
    to my left and from the local law enforcement as well as
    coordinating operations is critical. This Committee's well
    aware of OCDETF and SOD, the Counter-Terrorism Center,
    Counterproliferation Center. These centers provide the hub for
    information and operational-sharing information and
    coordinating resources as well as tactical level response. We
    know the model, we know the successful model, and this bill
    would get us there or partially there.
        Chairman Grassley. Ms. Stephan, Title 18 makes Federal
    crime to transport stolen property with a value of $5,000 or
    more in interstate and foreign commerce. Supreme Court case law
    allows prosecutors to aggregate the value of stolen goods in
    common scheme to reach that threshold. Why is aggregation of
    theft amounts very important?
        Ms. Stephan. Aggregation is critical because it
    distinguishes between somebody who is drug addicted who goes
    into to steal something, food, is still wrong, but it separates
    them from the habitual, organized criminals. It allows you to
    see the activity in totality and to be able to see the repeat
    offenses that form the structure of organized, habitual
    criminals.
        In California, we recently, after a long tenure fight, made
    a change in Proposition 36 that allowed us to aggregate. And
    it's already making a difference because we used to have
    criminals coming in with the calculators to go right under
    $950, thus leaving them at a citation misdemeanor level. That's
    what caused all our products to become locked up except the
    criminals that were committing the crimes.
        Chairman Grassley. Thank you. Senator Durbin.
        Senator Durbin. Thanks, Chairman Grassley. Ms. Stephan,
    thanks for what you do, and thanks for endorsing this bill. It
    sounds like a good one, but it is an expansion of the federal
    enforcement as it would not apply to your jurisdiction,
    correct?
        Ms. Stephan. Well, it actually is an--I think, an
    expansion. If the task force, I read it a few times, puts
    together this fusion center like a law enforcement coordination
    center, then that information is supposed to feed to the locals
    and all the way up. So, I view it as like the other task forces
    on fentanyl where we work with DEA, like that it's going to
    bring that fusion together to assist locals as well.
        Senator Durbin. But the leadership under this legislation
    is federal, correct?
        Ms. Stephan. Absolutely, yes.
        Senator Durbin. That's the point I want to make. And the
    reason I'm making that point is going back to what I said in my
    opening statement, the investigations of these crimes at the
    federal level depends on the Department of Homeland Security.
    Does it not?
        Ms. Stephan. That's what I read. Yes, sir.
        Senator Durbin. That's the way I understand as well. In
    February, the Department of Homeland Security in Washington
    ordered its entire investigations division composed of 6,000
    agents to divert focus on drug dealers, terrorists, and human
    traffickers, and shift priority to the Trump administration's
    mission of deporting people in the United States who are in the
    United States illegally.
        The new focus for the DHS, Homeland Security Agency,
    current and formal officials say is in keeping with the
    President's executive orders that demand a wholesale shift in
    federal law enforcement resources toward immigration,
    crackdowns, and removal. But they warn the shift will undermine
    high profile investigations into some of the most dangerous
    transnational threats Americans face, including Mexican drug
    cartels, smuggling deadly fentanyl across the border from
    Mexico. Chris Campanelli, former HSI supervisory agents said,
    ``A lot of my colleagues were afraid this was going to happen.
    This is going to be a total train wreck.''
        So, let's put the cards on the table. Yes, if anyone's
    involved in illegally being in the United States, undocumented
    or otherwise, and is engaged in criminal activity that is
    dangerous to themselves and others, they should be removed,
    period. Prosecuted, period. Are never let in in the first
    place, period.
        But what about those who are living here, who've been here
    for years, working a job, showing up every day, raising a
    family, which is mainly American citizens and paying their
    taxes. Is that a priority over what we're discussing today? Not
    in my book as far as I'm concerned. We should go after with
    limited law enforcement resources at the federal level, the
    most dangerous and threatening situations imaginable.
        I've described a few of them where the subject of this
    hearing is another one in retail theft. I don't doubt for a
    second that what's been described to us today is part of a much
    bigger network, even reaching into drug syndication. But to say
    we're worried about whether someone who is cutting grass on a
    golf course today is undocumented, and we ought to put the
    resources of Federal Government into putting them in a
    detention facility and deporting them, I don't think that's as
    high a priority as the subject of this hearing today.
        Ms. Stephan, let me ask you about criminal forfeiture. Can
    you describe, or in most general terms, this is not a quiz or a
    bar exam. Why criminal forfeiture being added to this bill is
    important?
        Ms. Stephan. Because all of the crime, this works on greed
    and on money. So, you being effective means you have to
    forfeit. You have to take away the things that they stole. It's
    absolutely important because that's what they rely on, which is
    profit.
        Senator Durbin. I'm asking you to get down to a little
    lower level in your primary education course here on what
    criminal forfeiture is.
        Ms. Stephan. Criminal forfeiture is where you take moneys
    from bad doers, wrongdoers, because they've committed a crime
    and you're able to take cars, their homes, any homes, exactly
    anything that is related to their criminal activity.
        Senator Durbin. And there's an expansion of that in this
    new bill as I understand it. Is that what you see it as well,
    criminal forfeiture?
        Ms. Stephan. I saw criminal forfeiture. I didn't see that
    it expanded beyond what is normally allowed, which is a nexus
    between the crime and the activity. But I can go back and study
    it, Senator.
        Senator Durbin. I should do the same thing. I'm not being
    critical of the bill or of your analysis of it, but I'm saying
    that the notion for dealing with some network and you find the
    kingpins that their personal possessions could be on the table
    as well if they're found guilty. Is that correct?
        Ms. Stephan. That's right.
        Senator Durbin. Right. I'm all for it.
        Ms. Stephan. Yes.
        Senator Durbin. That sounds good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley. Before I call on Cornyn, I think this
    speaks a little bit to what you were just talking about.
    Congress and State legislature authorized asset discouragement
    for more than 200 years. This legislation asset discouragement.
    For convictions of interstate shipment of stolen goods,
    transportation of stolen goods and sale or reseed of stolen
    goods. The Government uses discouragement to take the profit
    out of crime. No one has a right to retain the proceeds of
    their ill-gotten gains. Doing so would be an invitation to
    commit similar crimes tomorrow and forever. Senator Cornyn.
        Senator Durbin. Mr. Chairman, let me just add at this point
    I support that, and I think you do too.
        Chairman Grassley. You bet. Senator Cornyn.
        Senator Cornyn. Thank you all for being here. I was struck
    by the fact that in each of your testimony, you highlight the
    transnational aspects of this problem. In other words, this is
    not just a local crime that DAs would prosecute in San Diego
    County necessarily. These are international networks and
    criminal organizations.
        And unfortunately, it reminds me of what we've become
    familiar with in places like Mexico where the cartels do a lot
    of different things, but it's all designed to generate money
    for the cartels, whether they steal food, fuel, traffic, and
    drugs, or in people. And now, it seems like it's crossed our
    borders into the United States, because I note that in the Katy
    Mills Mall case that occurred in April 2025, at Katy Mills Mall
    in Texas, two of the individuals that were apprehended had
    Mexican IDs.
        And then, in the news we hear about, for example, marijuana
    farms in California where unaccompanied minors who were allowed
    into the country without any real restriction during the Biden
    administration were part of the roundup there. ICE, Immigration
    and Customs Enforcement estimates that there are as many as
    662,000 illegal immigrants currently in the country who have
    either criminal convictions or criminal charges pending against
    them.
        And it strikes me as this is quite a workforce for some of
    these criminal organizations. In other words, things don't stop
    at the border. And when people get into the United States who
    are unvetted and who have criminal convictions or make crime
    their life's work, they've got to be doing something.
        And I wonder, Mr. Glawe, do you think that part of the fact
    that we've had these open border policies in recent years that
    have allowed unvetted people, these aren't just people who want
    to come here to work and have a better life. These are people
    who are unvetted. We don't know who they are, but if it
    includes such a large contingent of people with criminal
    convictions or who are currently charged with crimes, aren't
    they part of the workforce that are used by these organized
    criminal organizations to do what we're talking about here
    today?
        Mr. Glawe. Senator Cornyn, thank you for the question. And
    in my current role and past role, we know transnational
    criminal organizations know no boundaries. These are billion-
    dollar businesses. The Sinaloa Cartel is one of the best known.
    It runs like a Fortune 500 company moving people and moving
    goods. It's all about the money. These organizations have
    connectivity to nation- states and terrorist organizations.
    We've seen that. This Committee's well briefed on that and has
    oversight on some of those cases.
        Regarding the vetting of individuals and goods, it is
    critical component to protect the United States. As the Under
    Secretary for Intelligence, I was the head of intelligence at
    Customs and Border Protection. I know that very well. And
    identifying those criminal actors, those criminal networks,
    those terrorists that are coming in and out of the United
    States and the goods that are being supplied in and outside of
    the country.
        The vetting process is critical, and I think this law,
    CORCA is a good step in creating a center to identify the
    illicit goods and the people involved with traffic those goods
    globally. It's an excellent first step. And we well know this
    model, and it works. It's a center of excellence model to our
    target and illicit activity that's affecting the United States
    and affecting the consumers. Thank you.
        Senator Cornyn. And Senator Durbin raises a concern that
    some of the law enforcement authorities that are currently
    being used to repatriate or deport people with criminal records
    out of the country that somehow that they're being diverted
    from other law enforcement activities, but I'll note that
    recently, we voted for $170 billion addition to the funding for
    ICE for detention facilities and for personnel and training,
    and all of our Democratic colleagues voted against it.
        So, I don't know. You really can't have it both ways. But
    do you believe that as I do, Mr. Glawe, that that these go hand
    in hand in terms of addressing this problem? You can't get at
    this problem without dealing with the people who are on the
    ground committing these crimes on a daily basis, who are then
    connected with these international organizations. Can you?
        Mr. Glawe. In intelligence sharing on individuals and
    organizations and the supply chain is critical to have a hub
    for information sharing to identify those nefarious actors and
    operationalize a response.
        Senator Cornyn. Thank you.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Hirono, you're next.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you-all for
    testifying. I think part of the concern regarding the organized
    retail crime situation is the lack of, I would say, adequate
    information and data. Would you agree that what we should have
    a better system of determining how much of this is going on? I
    realize that you're here because it is a serious concern, but I
    do think that since a lot of this data is not reported to the
    National Incident Bank-based reporting, for example, that that
    is an area that could be improved. Wouldn't you agree, any of
    you?
        Ms. Lemm. I'd just like to comment that I agree. And one of
    the things that's been so interesting as we prepare for this
    testimony, our own statistics. I agree with you that the stats
    that are being reported are maybe a fraction of really the
    actual theft that's going on.
        Motor carriers are the eyes and ears of our supply chain.
    We see everything. We're the first ones to see if that seal's
    broken, right and we're the first ones, because we are held, as
    soon as we out gate, responsible for that load. And so, when we
    looked at our own statistics for the past 4 years, it's
    staggering. And that's why I made the comment about in 2021, we
    had 5 reports of cargo theft, 5, and by 2024, we had 876
    reports. It's huge.
        Senator Hirono. I think that to the extent that it is
    increasing, it would be also helpful that we should have all of
    our large cities in particular reporting in on the incidents of
    these kinds of crimes to the national incident-based reporting
    system that we put together.
        Now, all of you testified that it's going to require, that
    the enforcement of whatever legislation that we enact will
    require a collaborative enforcement involving federal, State,
    local, and the private sector all working together. And that is
    one of the things that you hope will be created under this this
    law that you that we are contemplating, is that a critical part
    of any kind of a law enforcement effort to get at this crime?
    And I would ask, Ms. Stephan.
        Ms. Stephan. Yes, exactly. I think being able to put
    together--we did that on a State level and it enhanced our
    ability, and this is why we've been able to get to 218
    organized criminal actors, but we know that it goes well beyond
    that. So, being able to organize a similar thing on a national
    level.
        Because I can cite you multiple cases, Senator, where this
    same group that we were able to hold accountable in San Diego,
    went to Chicago, Illinois, did damage, went to the State of
    Washington, did damage, and we finally caught them. We're
    unable to prosecute them for those out of State crimes, but we
    were able to join our California crimes together. But we didn't
    have any kind of alert or information, data sharing about what
    to look for. What is the profile, what's coming our way in this
    big jewelry heist that I mentioned? I hope I was--maybe there's
    another question.
        Senator Hirono. With regard to the data sharing and all
    that, that this is something that Homeland Security would
    supply, is that your expectation under this bill that would
    require Homeland Security to be the depository or repository of
    a lot of the enforcement activity under the contemplated bill?
        Ms. Stephan. I expect a federal agency to do it because of
    my experience with federal agencies, for example, in the area
    of elder scams, we were simply guessing until the FBI took on
    the leadership of our Elder Justice Task Force. We were able to
    then connect the dots and find out that my seniors were losing
    $98 million a year.
        Senator Hirono. Excuse me, I am running out of time. So, to
    the extent that there's going to be a much bigger federal
    involvement in enforcement there, there is a concern about what
    is happening at Homeland Security as well as the Department of
    Justice and the diversion of resources and bodies to other than
    prosecuting and going after these kinds of crimes. And
    literally dozens of experienced people who are normally of
    focus on these kinds of crimes, are no longer there.
        So, we can pass whatever laws we want, but unless there is
    that commitment to enforcement at the federal level, we are
    going to continue to run into resource problems. Thank you, Mr.
    Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley. Thank you. Senator Blackburn.
        Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Lemm,
    welcome. We know that you and IMC do a great job in Memphis,
    and we appreciate that you are here today before the Committee.
    How long have you worked in logistics?
        Ms. Lemm. Actually, Thirty-eight years.
        Senator Blackburn. Thirty-eight years. So, you have seen
    this as Tennessee has grown to be a logistics hub, an
    intermodal hub there in Memphis where you have all of the class
    one railroads. You have the very active port of Memphis which
    is moving a lot of cargo and containers up and down the
    Mississippi River. We have FedEx that is there. And then of
    course, because of that, we have all the trucking organizations
    that are well located in Memphis.
        I noted in your testimony, you talked about the increase
    from 21 to 24 was a 5,000 percent increase. So, this is an
    astounding number. Now, we all know that weak DAs and weak
    judges that will not abide by sentencing guidelines and lock
    these people up and prosecute them is one of the reasons that
    we have seen this cargo theft explode. So, I want you to talk
    for a minute about what you think has caused this explosion.
        Ms. Lemm. Well, I absolutely agree that, you know, part of
    it is that there is there's no arrest and there's no
    prosecution. We do have a problem with that, but we also have a
    problem with an understanding of what the magnitude of cargo
    theft actually means so often. And the Memphis Police
    Department does a great job. I will tell you they do respond.
        Senator Blackburn. Chief Davis.
        Ms. Lemm. Tremendous job.
        But in so many ways, cargo theft, we speak almost a
    different language, our terminology many things are very
    different. And so, often when the local police do come, they
    may write this whole theft up as vandalism. They're not able
    immediately to even qualify and quantify what was taken, what's
    the value of what's taken. They see the damage when the fences
    are cut, and it's vandalism as we know it.
        And so, I think what we like so much about the CORCA bill
    is this outline in this standardization of what is cargo theft?
    What is it? How do we aggregate it? I was talking about motor
    carriers being the eyes and ears of our industry, because we
    are, we don't have a voice. We don't know where to report. We
    need a centralized place to report.
        I explained the incident in St. Louis where we, you know,
    basically had the ATF calling us right, to tell us that, ``Oh,
    we've got your refrigerators.'' And so, it's this ability to
    connect the dots, local, State, and Federal that we don't have
    today. And you asked the question, you know, about what is it,
    what could we do better in the State of Tennessee? What could
    we do better in Memphis? I think we're doing all that we can.
        Senator Blackburn. Right. Let's talk for a minute--pardon
    me about, about that, because you're right, it takes passing
    legislation, reframing the conversation, if you will, and then
    putting the parameters around that. But one of the things that
    we've looked at is utilization of technology.
        Ms. Lemm. Yes.
        Senator Blackburn. Because of what you're talking about
    with cutting the fences, and then local law enforcement having
    to say, is it something that is vandalism? Or how do we know
    what the extent of the theft is? So, changing the approach and
    gathering that evidence, utilizing technology, speak to that
    importance?
        Ms. Lemm. Well, 100 percent agree that there are ways
    perhaps we can use technology to help us better record those
    instances. And I think that could be very, very helpful part of
    this whole discussion, too, of reporting resources needed to do
    it. Technology can help us do it faster, more efficiently, more
    effectively.
        So, I really appreciate you even bringing that up. I think
    you know we've got a very strong technology team in Memphis
    would love to invite you to our headquarters and to have this
    maybe a further discussion about how we could bring in this
    whole idea of technology to help us in this area of cargo theft
    where we badly need standardization, communication, and more
    speed in our ability to collaborate.
        Senator Blackburn. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley. Yes, Senator Klobuchar.
        Senator Klobuchar. Let Senator Padilla to go before me.
    It's fine. He was waiting.
        Chairman Grassley. Go ahead.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you for the courtesy. Thank you, Mr.
    Chair. Colleagues, it's clear that across the country,
    policymakers are grappling with how best to respond to this
    dynamic of increasing reports of organized retail crime. It's
    on the news constantly. And as a result, it's not just federal
    officials that are thinking about it, and what can we do about
    it, State officials, local officials, but through our
    collective experience, you know, that effective policymaking
    also, it depends on accurate data.
        And right now, much of what we hear based on ``shrink
    estimates'' often conflates theft with inventory loss, employee
    error, and internal fraud. And I just can't help but observe
    that without standardized disaggregated data, there's a risk
    that we may find ourselves legislating based on more
    assumptions than actual evidence.
        So, my first question is for Mr. Glawe. The National
    Insurance Crime Bureau often cites retail shrink data to
    describe the scale of organized retail crime. How do you
    distinguish between organized retail crime as opposed to
    employee theft, inventory mismanagement, or other forms of
    loss?
        Mr. Glawe. So, Senator, thank you for the question. We have
    been the hub for information sharing for the insurance industry
    and law enforcement for 115 years. So, the claims associated
    with crimes involved, we have access to that.
        Since 2023, we've seen almost a 50 percent increase in
    cargo theft. So, the cans, in the goods that are inside the
    cans, in the last 18 months, we've seen 240 theft
    investigations and 70 recoveries totaling $40 million that our
    organization's been involved.
        So, we're actually embedded in the investigations and with
    the analysts at State and local levels. Regarding the
    shoplifting and the shrinkage inside organizations. That data
    is not something that the NICB actually tracks specifically,
    it's the larger volume, the criminal organizations and the
    cargoes associated with it.
        Senator Padilla. So, that in and of itself, I think is an
    important distinction because the nightly news may not always
    frame it accurately. Would you agree or disagree with that?
        Mr. Glawe. I would say the cargo theft, we can speak
    specifically who we have the data associated with that, the
    data regarding organized retail theft the crimes, which we know
    are associated with some criminal organizations where the
    supply chain goes overseas, but the actual data associated to
    that, I think this legislation would be a good first step in
    providing some granularity.
        Because local law enforcement is really one--you're talking
    about that theft reporting of where they get their data from,
    it doesn't resolve necessarily to the federal system or into
    the claims data that we would access according to crimes.
        Senator Padilla. Right. Let me jump to a different topic.
    Time goes by quickly in this Committee. Organized retail theft
    crosses the State lines and implicates complex networks, which
    you began to touch on, Mr. Glawe, from theft, to transport, to
    resale. But addressing the issue effectively requires the right
    federal partners as well. It's a public-private partnership, if
    we're going to crack down on this with the right tools and
    oversight.
        Now, the Department of Justice, and the FBI, in particular,
    have a long history of handling multi-jurisdictional property
    crimes with prosecutorial discretion and judicial
    accountability. But CORCA, you referenced the proposal, will
    shift that rule to the Department of Homeland Security raising
    questions about mission creep or surveillance.
        So, Mr. Glawe, given your background to both national
    security and fraud prevention, do you think DHS is the best
    agency to address an economic property challenge?
        Mr. Glawe. Senator, again, thank you for the question. And
    I did spend a large part of my career in DHS and the FBI, so I
    have an idea of both organizations. Department of Homeland
    Security, at the ports, you know, Customs and Border
    Protection, we're embedded with them on identifying illicit
    activity in goods going overseas.
        Specifically, vehicles, were in multiple major ports. We've
    covered a lot of high value stolen vehicles at the ports and
    those goods transiting the ports. CBP is an important
    Interlochen on people and goods traveling across the borders
    and identifying illicit activity. HSI has a long history of
    working transnational criminal organizations as well. We worked
    with them when they were former customs special agents as well
    before 9/11 when DHS was formed.
        DHS is a logical point of being the center here. But I
    think in partnership is critical with the FBI, our local law
    and State partners, as well as national security, which we
    didn't touch on, is we need to identify these networks that are
    associated with national security threats being terrorism and
    nation-state. So, a center where this can be done is very
    important, and this bill is a good step.
        Senator Padilla. So, I agree when it comes to the cargo
    dynamic and ports of entry. When it comes to retail as retail
    shops and theft being conducted at that level, I think that's a
    different question, needing a different set of tools,
    experience, and expertise from the Federal partners.
        Last question. Now, my time is up, but if the Department of
    Homeland Security were to gain access to both business and
    consumer data, again, at the retail level, not through the
    supply chain, how do we prevent that information, that consumer
    business data, from being used for unrelated purposes?
        Mr. Glawe. Senator, I think the prioritization, as Ranking
    Member Durbin said before on violent criminals, transnational
    criminal organizations that are a threat to the United States
    that transit the borders is critical. This center, the vetting
    of people and goods that travel for threats to the United
    States that are associated with violent criminal organization,
    Mexican drug cartels, as well as terrorist organizations, is
    critical in this center to be a good first step to do that.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Britt.
        Senator Britt. Thank you, Chairman Grassley, for convening
    today's hearing. And thank you to all the witnesses for taking
    time to be here.
        I'm proud to be a co-sponsor of the Chairman's bill, and I
    agree that both deterrents and a coordinated response are
    essential to addressing the issue. We know organized retail
    crime and supply chain crime have been a growing problem in
    recent years.
        So, as my time before I came to the U.S. Senate, I was
    President and CEO of the Business Council of Alabama. This is
    something we dealt with our members across the State, and we
    learned that it's a multifaceted problem and it poses law
    enforcement, economic, and national security challenges.
        While these activities involve theft, in which and of
    itself is a crime that must be addressed, one of my concerns is
    to the extent in which organized crime in the retail and supply
    chain area are carried out in furtherance of additional illicit
    crimes and to the extent in which that often involves a
    sophisticated criminal network.
        My first questions are for Mr. Glawe and Ms. Stephan. Based
    on your experience, what are some of the downstream illicit
    activities that are tied to or furthered by the retail and
    supply chain theft?
        Ms. Stephan. Thank you, Senator, for that question. What we
    do know is when, for example, our ORCA, our organized theft
    task force does these investigations, hundreds of search
    warrants. It's not uncommon to find the retail theft goods
    along with guns and drugs. So, we see that interconnection
    right there.
        We don't have the federal tools currently to be able to
    then tie those to specific activity into what cartels, what
    organized crime is involved in this particular shipment that we
    have right there, and that's where the bill that you're
    supporting really can come into play and help us.
        We also know, just from our experience, that the
    intersection of crime, we know that cartels in Mexico, they
    work with our Mexican mafia which is our, LaEme and they then
    issue orders to our local gangs, which then control the human
    trafficking activity. It's very hard to separate. These
    criminal organizations are there based on greed and profit, and
    wherever they can do that, that's what they're doing. They are
    not always specialists, just specialists in retail theft.
        In a recent case that we did that had the South American
    theft groups that were linked to hundreds of residential
    burglaries, especially targeting our Asian communities, where
    they would watch as they're in their business and they would
    attack their homes while they were away. They would survey in
    those cases, you know, they had pictures on social media, that
    same group with guns and with inviting escort services, which
    is really human trafficking and other things.
        So, the intersections abound. And I think that having
    those, connecting the dots at a federal level will allow us to
    see the whole framework and be able to then attack that monster
    in a better, more precise, strategic way.
        Senator Britt. Thank you so much, Ms. Stephan. And Mr.
    Glawe, before you answer not only the downstream illicit
    effect, but also how does this fit into the larger picture of
    these transnational criminal organizations? And kind of speak
    directly to that as well.
        Mr. Glawe. Thank you for the question. And actually,
    working on the transnational organized crime strategy under two
    administrations, I can speak specifically how important it is
    to have centers so the intelligence and the operation
    coordinating can be put together. The national security threats
    and transnational criminals organizations cannot be stated more
    emphatically that we need these centers to be able to run this
    information against classified data bases to understand if
    these are being sponsored by nation-states, being it North
    Korea, Iran, China, Russia, or these are by terrorist
    organizations.
        And we know all too well this Committee had oversight on
    the Lebanese Hezbollah bulk cast smuggling involving vehicles
    in 2010, 2015 era. There's historical cases that show the model
    works, but you have to have a center oversight is appropriate
    where you can run classified and unclassified data together
    that brings State, local law enforcement, federal, and the
    private sector together to identify those criminal networks
    that are associated with the highest threats to the homeland.
        Senator Britt. And let me ask you, in my few remaining
    seconds, you obviously mentioned the center. Can you speak to
    any gaps in information-sharing that may need to be addressed
    in how we actually through the coordination and creation of
    this center can work to actually fill those gaps?
        Mr. Glawe. So, every center from the Organized Drug
    Enforcement Task Force to the Counterterrorism Center, that we
    know well, the models works there. It'll take time for the
    policies and the strategies to get in place, and of course, to
    correct oversight and the legal parameters to go with it, but
    the public private sector partnership is critical. But also
    bringing together disparate law enforcement organizations from
    the Federal Bureau of Investigations, Homeland Security
    Investigations, to CBP and our national security partners to
    identify the threats that are the biggest to the United States
    is critical. And the center is a good first step.
        Senator Britt. Excellent. Well, thank you all for being
    here. I have some more questions, but I will submit those for
    the record.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Klobuchar.
        Senator Klobuchar. Hello. Thank you so much for being here.
    I was talking to Senator Whitehouse there about my previous job
    when I was a prosecutor, and we actually set up a whole group
    of prosecutors to work on this retail theft. It seems like our
    problems were simple back then compared to now.
        But I guess I'll start with you, Ms. Stephan. Could you
    tell me how this federal legislation would ensure that
    criminals who engage in what is actually different than it was
    back then, I'll say that's now organized retail theft, face
    accountability.
        Ms. Stephan. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. The cases that
    we've done, which have been 218 cases in over 2 years with $2.6
    million loss, show us that there's a footprint and it's outside
    our State. It's across the Nation and an international
    footprint, a recent $8 million jewelry heist. The Rolexes were
    gone overseas with the fence being in Chile.
        So, it will enhance our ability to be ahead of it, to
    prevent the same type of jewelry heist had happened in the
    State of Washington, but we received no information, our local
    task force to tell us there's this trend be on alert to it
    because it's extremely sophisticated.
        Senator Klobuchar. That's why that retail crime
    coordination center would be so important----
        Ms. Stephan. Exactly.
        Senator Klobuchar [continuing]. If you get that
    information. Mr. Glawe, could you tell me how transnational
    criminal organizations use cargo theft to actually fund other
    illicit operations?
        Mr. Glawe. We have seen an exponential increase in cargo
    theft over the last 3 years. In 2023, we saw almost a 27
    percent increase. We're seeing another 22 percent increase,
    that's a 50--well, we estimate in the end of 2025, we'll up be
    50 percent. We know this supply chain is going overseas. We
    know it's going over our border. These stolen goods essentially
    have 100 percent markup. You steal it, and your profits are 100
    percent.
        So, the question is how do we identify those nefarious
    actors, those networks that are the biggest threat to the
    homeland. As Senator Britt's was talked about, is that's the
    need for those classified data bases to be run against these
    criminal networks. And, you know, well, Senator, this bill
    would provide us the strategic and tactical intelligence to
    address these biggest threats to the homeland, which we have no
    doubt that these supply chains are being used to facilitate
    for.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. And Mr. McBride, I think this
    is an important point. How do the threats of violence by these
    organized retail crime cartels not only threaten the safety of
    store employees, but also make it hard to keep the stores open?
        Mr. McBride. Thank you for the question, Senator. Yes, it's
    the threat of violence and the actual violence that some of my
    peers have experienced is grown exponentially over the last
    decade. My fellow witness here testified to the attitudes of
    some of the store and shop owners that are concerned for their
    safety when they're operating their shops. The intimidation
    tactics to come back and to be able to revictimize the retail
    locations over and over again is grown so much that we've had
    to implement additional countermeasures, had to implement
    training to keep our employees safe, we've had to lock up and
    hide.
        All of that leads to a reevaluation of the investment
    that's being made in new stores different locations and those
    types of things. And has in some cases with the entire retail
    sector led to product deserts in some parts of this country
    because stores have had to close up and leave because they
    could no longer sustain a viable operation because of the
    violence, the crime, the theft, and the losses that they are
    incurring.
        Senator Klobuchar. Very good. Ms. Lemm, last but not least,
    so first of all, thank you for the support for the Ocean
    Shipping Reform Act, the bill that Senator Thune and I did.
    Yes. And as many of you know, that was about the pricing during
    the pandemic that was hurting our farmers and our retail making
    it really difficult.
        And after we passed that bill on a bipartisan basis, then
    President Biden signed it into law, it actually--the rates went
    down for a number of reasons, but I think the threat of that in
    the Maritime Commission eventually doing rules made a
    difference, and it wouldn't have happened without companies
    like yours.
        So, just one question on this topic. Do you agree that
    cargo theft poses a risk to the security of our food supply
    chain?
        Ms. Lemm. I absolutely do.
        Senator Klobuchar. Can you explain that quickly, why?
        Ms. Lemm. Yes, Senator, and thank you for the question.
    First of all, food and beverage is the number one targeted
    commodity in cargo theft. Number one. And why? Demand, of
    course. It's so difficult to track. It's so easy to distribute.
    And what is so devastating about that is, you know, the price
    of food we know already is so high. The average American
    cringes every time they go to the grocery store.
        And what happens with these targeted thefts on food is once
    you have something that's precious, any kind of food, you pick
    it. We see 2, 3, 4 percent stolen. Those costs are immediately
    passed on to the consumer. And you've been very helpful with us
    as we discuss ag exports and what's happened is actually
    targeting agricultural exports, beef, poultry, perishables.
        And what we also see that's happening because of so much of
    this transnational cargo organization, crime that's happening
    on our railroads, pilferage, yes it may be secondary. We
    believe these thieves are after high value cargo, but in the
    meantime, destruction to our Ag exports as they cut the seals
    and the integrity of load is lost.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. Appreciate it.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Moody.
        Senator Moody. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for
    introducing the Federal legislation, Combating Organized Retail
    Crime Act. I am incredibly proud to be a co-sponsor of that.
    And it is timely, certainly, and needed now more than ever. I'm
    one of the newest Senators here, as you can tell, I sit down
    here at the edge of the dais. And one of the things that has
    shocked me and frustrated me, and that's putting it mildly, is
    when we're dealing with issues like organized retail crime,
    whether that's cargo, or smash and grab, or organized retail
    theft, really this should be a bipartisan effort and how we
    approach it.
        But I'm always incredibly surprised to hear questioning
    that. Is it really that bad? Like, shouldn't we attribute that
    to something else? Or why is FBI and DHS helping? So, what I am
    finding is that I think in whether it's a Governor or a mayor
    in so many places, and just to be clear, that's the executive
    branch whose responsibility to it is to enforce the law. There
    is almost an ignorance or willful blindness, or maybe it's
    self-promotion over the success and stability of their State or
    city.
        I don't know what it is, but it is increasingly hard for
    somebody like me that served as a judge and a Federal
    prosecutor and is the wife of a law enforcement officer to
    watch these statements. For example, in one Governor, Newsom
    out of California, went to a cargo theft site and was like, ``I
    don't know what's happening. This looks like a Third World
    country.''
        In fact, I don't think it's a coincidence that in the last
    3 years, the incident rate of cargo theft has gone up 17,000
    percent. And we've also seen unvetted people come into this
    country by the millions and invited into California, and
    nobody's picking up on that. How many times have we heard the
    word transnational criminal organization, transnational
    criminal organization.
        In fact, we just rolled out more arrests since Trump's been
    in office of people here that have been deported time and time
    again with criminal backgrounds and are stealing from cargo
    freight. In Florida we just arrested a ring of people here from
    Venezuela with ties to Tren de Aragua, who were found to have
    been responsible for dozens of retail thefts in Florida.
        Now, what I'm happy about is we now seem to have proposed
    legislations that are going to do what we did in Florida. So,
    when I was Attorney General, we launched a data base that
    started tracking these cross jurisdictions. So, where one might
    look like a single theft incident, we were able to then show,
    ``Oh no, this was nine jurisdictions, $20 million in loss, 20
    different retailers,'' and we charged it that way and
    prosecuted that way and locked them up for the true crime.
        We also did legislation that expanded the time period on
    which you could tie in these multiple hits and incidents into
    the organized crime. And that is what this proposed federal
    legislation is going to do. But what we have to stop doing is
    saying the problem's not bad when the numbers are staggering.
        It's costing Americans when we're trying to figure out how
    we're going to afford to put food on the table with
    skyrocketing prices, we don't need built into those prices
    theft that can be avoided if we just have executives understand
    that it is their job, Governors, and mayors to work with law
    enforcement to enforce the law.
        When you have DAs abdicating their responsibility and
    saying, ``I'm not going to lock anybody up for theft,'' that
    just flows gasoline on the fire. And what did we do different
    in Florida, we actually removed the DAs that wouldn't enforce
    the laws they didn't like. So, in New York, it shouldn't have
    been surprising when they were catching people stealing and
    they said, ``Well, we steal here, but we go in Florida to spend
    our money because in Florida, if we get caught, they'll lock us
    up.''
        We need a national approach that says we're taking this
    seriously. That is costing Americans money. It's costing us the
    ability to share information across not just county lines
    within a State, but across State lines and then across nation-
    states. This is so important. I cannot stress how important it
    is otherwise. Mr. McBride, you referenced this and I want to
    say to you, you said, ``look, it's costing us so much money.
    Can we even stay open?
        Miracle Mile was about a third empty, Miracle Mile in
    Chicago, and you had a mayor blaming the businesses that they
    didn't have more security. If that is not shortsightedness in
    the role of an executive in an executive branch, I don't know
    what is. And that is a primary driver of this.
        Mr. McBride, can you say from your experience, how much do
    you think costs go up as a percentage as a result of this
    organized retail crime?
        Mr. McBride. So, I cannot speak exactly to a number. I can
    tell you that the losses are absorbed by corporations for as
    much as they possibly can stand. But it does end up coming back
    to the consumer in a lot of different ways, whether there's
    cost of goods, because we have to provide additional inventory
    to cover the gaps that now are missing from the store. Cost of
    security, cost of training, the cost of rehiring associates
    when they no longer feel safe enough to want to work in those
    locations.
        So, it is a very exponential amount of increased effort and
    costs on the part of every single retailer because every single
    retailer in this country, in every single State, have been
    victimized in some way by these crime groups.
        Senator Moody. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Whitehouse.
        Chairman Grassley. And then I don't know whether Senator
    Tillis--are you going to ask questions? I've got to go vote.
    So, you guys will have to work this out here.
        Senator Whitehouse. [presiding]. We'll manage.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Whitehouse. Ms. Stephan, I think you're the
    prosecutor here on the panel. Is that correct?
        Ms. Stephan. I believe so, and I'm one that doesn't mind
    prosecuting. So, there have been some comments.
        Senator Whitehouse. Well, that's usually a good attribute
    in a prosecutor. I wanted to first of all let my colleagues
    know that I'm very happy to work on legislation to focus on the
    organized nature of these theft rings. I'm a little skeptical
    of making ordinary shoplifting a Federal offense, but I think
    we can figure out our way through that as we start to actually
    design legislation. So, I just wanted to open with that point.
        One of the very powerful laws for dealing with criminal
    organizations, specifically criminal enterprises, as you will
    have figured out from my use of the word enterprise, is the
    RICO statute and both transporting, and selling, or receiving
    stolen goods are RICO predicates. Could you walk us through
    where there have been RICO successes at dealing with these
    systemic theft rings that then obviously have to transport,
    sell, or have somebody receive the stolen goods, and where
    you've run across or your colleagues in law enforcement have
    run across legal impediments to using the RICO statute against
    this predicate offense?
        Ms. Stephan. So, in California, our State statutes don't
    have an actual RICO component. We don't have the laws as strong
    as the federal side. This is why in our, for example, fentanyl
    task forces and in our Elder Justice Task Force, the cases that
    are solved in the task force are provided where the federal
    prosecutor takes those cases that involve a RICO element
    because it's such a powerful tool. And the State prosecutors--
    --
        Senator Whitehouse. So, California does not have a State
    RICO law?
        Ms. Stephan. On the State side, no, we don't.
        Senator Whitehouse. One of few.
        Ms. Stephan. We're fighting. We fight for different--we
    have conspiracy laws, but they're not the same as a RICO
    statute.
        Senator Whitehouse. So, you would have to go to the U.S.
    attorney----
        Ms. Stephan. Exactly.
        Senator Whitehouse [continuing]. And work with them in
    order to get a prosecution together. How about your colleagues
    around the country who have State RICO laws? Have they been
    able to bring cases involving transportation sale or receipt of
    stolen goods under those State statutes?
        Ms. Stephan. They've done, I mean, through NDAA. I know
    there's been a lot of successes in bringing organized retail
    theft cases. San Diego, we've brought 218 cases even under----
        Senator Whitehouse. But not under RICO?
        Ms. Stephan. Not under RICO, but under an organized retail
    theft statute which is a little easier to get to. But those
    tools that allow you to go to the higher ups, whether it's
    organized retail theft, or RICO, are absolutely imperative.
        Senator Whitehouse. Well, I'm going to close out here and
    turn the gavel over to Senator Coons, who is the last Senator,
    can get us in all sorts of trouble alone in the room.
        Senator Coons. I move the confirmation
        Senator Whitehouse. Exactly. I would love if you have a
    chance, if there is any particularly helpful document out there
    from the NDAA, for instance, about the use of State RICO
    statutes in this area, or if you have any personal experience
    from your colleagues that would help inform our deliberations
    or if there've been any good uses of your colleagues bringing
    cases to Federal U.S. attorneys and getting RICO prosecutions
    that resulted. I'd love to get that from you. So, I'll make
    that as a question for the record, if I may.
        Senator Whitehouse. And I thank all the witnesses for being
    here, and I yield back my time.
        Senator Coons. [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse.
        Senator Whitehouse. Over to you, Senator.
        Senator Coons. Thank you to the witnesses. And I'd like to
    thank Chair Grassley, and Ranking Member Durbin, and their
    staff pulling together this hearing.
        Look, this is an important topic all over the country.
    Certainly, in my home State, Delaware, has a retail crime
    prevention task force to examine and better understand this
    issue. And it's a focus for Delaware's Law Enforcement Fusion
    Center. Interstate organized networks present challenges for
    any one State. And so, I'm very open to seeing how we can
    coordinate federal resources and federal legislation to help
    address this and to coordinate intelligence sharing and
    prosecution.
        How we disrupt organized networks. I think is also
    important that we avoid wasting precious federal resources on
    just minor shoplifters as opposed to those who are actually
    part of an organized effort. I've long been concerned about the
    criminalization of poverty. That's why I've led the bipartisan
    Driving for Opportunity Act with the support of Senators
    Grassley, Tillis, Whitehouse, Blumenthal, and Booker. And I
    think we need to avoid unintentionally exacerbating the problem
    while addressing the critical issue of organized retail theft.
        Ms. Stephan, thank you for the NDAA's long support of my
    Driving for Opportunity Act. I appreciated how your testimony
    recognized the importance of distinguishing between petty theft
    from sophisticated ringleaders. Could you say just a little bit
    more about that? What sort of indicators are there in
    investigation that you're dealing with, just casual petty theft
    versus those who are committing casual petty theft in order to
    feed into an organized criminal ring?
        Ms. Stephan. Thank you so much, Senator. And part of having
    the data and having organized task forces helps us make those
    distinctions in a more factual manner, not stereotyping. So,
    being able to look at a track record at the data points. How
    many times has this person been captured doing the same thing
    and stealing the exact same item, which they can't possibly
    need 200 sunglasses. There's got to be another use that isn't
    one that makes it a necessity or something that should be dealt
    with at a lower level, not an organized crime level.
        So, relying on data. And I think that is part of why I
    support this Federal, is not only to make more prosecutions,
    that's really important, but to distinguish the correct
    organized level and hold those who are really pulling the
    strings. And sometimes they're using vulnerabilities such as
    homeless people trying to feed an addiction. A young kid who's,
    you know wants to have a phone, different things. We've seen
    those solicitations of young people vulnerable people.
        So, having the correct data at the national level, the
    State level, the local level allows prosecutors to make good
    decisions that comport with justice.
        Senator Coons. Thank you. I also have to vote. One last
    question, if I might. Mr. Glawe, on behalf of the National
    Insurance Crime Bureau, any thoughts about how we would get
    better data? I mean, you gather data in a very broad way,
    neutral way. How do we make sure that we've got that data, and
    that we're sharing it effectively and broadly?
        Mr. Glawe. Senator, thank you for the question. So, we
    bring together over 1,200 property and casualty insurance
    carriers, and the claims associated with crime and suspicious
    activity. We've done this for 115 years. We started with auto
    thefts. We were actually the hub for all auto thefts back in
    1912. So, this is what we do. And I would say we do it really,
    really well.
        But that engagement and partnership with State, local law
    enforcement, and the private sector, and my partners to my left
    is critical to this. And we've seen the centers, and I've said
    this throughout my testimony; the Organized Crime Drug
    Enforcement Center, the Counterterrorism Center, the
    Counterproliferation Center, a center to bring us all together
    and unite us public and private sector, but as well as running
    the information against national security threats so we're
    prioritizing resources against the biggest threats to the
    homeland of Mexican drug cartels, terrorist organizations,
    nation-states; Iran, North Korea. We know they're involved in
    organized crimes.
        Some of the biggest cases I had in the FBI was against
    those organizations. So, a holistic approach. And this bill,
    CORCA, would have that first good first step for us to start
    building that center so we can prioritize resources, and all
    have strategic and tactical intelligence to address this
    threat.
        Senator Coons. Thank you. That makes great sense to me. I
    appreciate all of your testimony. This will conclude our
    hearing. And any written questions can be submitted for the
    record for 1 week from today. I'll ask the witnesses to answer
    and return those questions to the Committee within 2 weeks.
        Thank you again, and this hearing is hereby adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
        [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                A P P E N D I X

    The following submissions are available at:

      https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-119shrg61886/pdf/CHRG-
        119shrg
        61886-add1.pdf

    Submitted by Chairman Grassley:

     American Trucking Association, statement.........................     2

     Association of American Railroads (AAR), statement...............     5

     The Home Depot, statement........................................    13

     Intermodal Association of North America (IANA), letter...........    17

     National Association of Attorneys General, letter................    18

     National Association of Manufacturers, letter....................    24

     National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB), letter...................    25

     The National Police Association, Endorses the Combating Organized
        Retail Crime Act, letter......................................    28

     National Retail Federation (CORCA) Support, statement............    31

     National Retail Federation, statement............................    36

     Office of Global Public Policy (ICSC), Organized Retail Crime
        Legislation, statement........................................    46

     Retail Industry Leaders Association (RILA), statement............    50

     Ulta Beauty, statement...........................................    53

    Submitted by Ranking Member Durbin:

     The Home Depot, statement........................................    13

     Retail Industry Leaders Association (RILA), statement............    50

                                     [all]