    [Senate Hearing 119-184]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 119-184

                       SCAMMERS EXPOSED: PROTECTING OLDER
                                 AMERICANS FROM
                          TRANSNATIONAL CRIME NETWORKS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                 JUNE 17, 2025

                                   __________

                              Serial No. J-119-23

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                            www.judiciary.senate.gov
                                www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    61-841                      WASHINGTON : 2026

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                      CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman
    LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois,
    JOHN CORNYN, Texas                       Ranking Member
    MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
    TED CRUZ, Texas                      AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
    THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
    JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
    ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri               ALEX PADILLA, California
    KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            PETER WELCH, Vermont
    ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ADAM B. SCHIFF, California

                 Kolan Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
             Joe Zogby, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page

    Grassley, Hon. Charles E.........................................     1
    Durbin, Hon. Richard J...........................................     2

                                   WITNESSES

    Bercu, Joshua M..................................................     7
        Prepared statement...........................................    23
        Responses to written questions...............................    45
    Finta, Brady.....................................................     9
        Prepared statement...........................................    28
        Responses to written questions...............................    47
    Gunther, Jilenne.................................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................    30
        Responses to written questions...............................    50
    Helm, April......................................................     5
        Prepared statement...........................................    42
        Responses to written questions...............................    52

                                    APPENDIX

    Items submitted for the record...................................    55

                       SCAMMERS EXPOSED: PROTECTING OLDER
                                 AMERICANS FROM
                          TRANSNATIONAL CRIME NETWORKS

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, JUNE 17, 2025

                                  United States Senate,
                                    Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:37 a.m., in
    Room 226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Charles E.
    Grassley, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Grassley [presiding], Blackburn, Moody,
    Durbin, Whitehouse, Klobuchar, and Hirono.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES E. GRASSLEY,
                 A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF IOWA

        Chairman Grassley. Good morning, everybody. We are here
    today because the scam threat is real. We are all potential
    victims. The perpetrators are getting more bold, more ruthless,
    and more global by the day. Transnational organized crime
    groups are targeting all of us with industrial-scale fraud.
    These aren't small-time lone wolf crooks. They are
    sophisticated criminal networks operating with precision across
    the borders. They exploit technology, including artificial
    technology, and are draining billions of dollars from
    Americans' households.
        The Federal Trade Commission estimates that scammers stole
    $158 billion from Americans in 2023. Almost $62 billion of that
    was stolen from our senior citizens. Sixty-two billion dollars
    would fund the entire Department of Justice for a year and a
    half. It would fund all public university tuition for U.S.
    undergraduates for a year, so we are talking about a lot of
    money.
        So where is it going? Transnational crime networks are
    using American dollars for drug trafficking, human trafficking,
    arms trafficking, and other evil projects along that line.
    According to a 2023 Gallup poll, scams are Americans' second
    highest crime concern just after fear of identity theft. Nearly
    half of Americans say that they have encountered a cyber attack
    or a digital scam attempt. Eight percent of U.S. adults, that
    is 21 million Americans, were scammed in the past year. That
    means more than 57,000 Americans are being scammed each day.
        Scammers are extremely convincing, and their tactics are
    very effective. Calls from foreign countries appear on cell
    phones at the local bank branch number, the local police
    department, or another trusted entity. Artificial intelligence
    needs just 17 words of a person's real voice to create an
    entire script that sounds like that individual. So it is
    believable, then, when a caller that sounds just like your
    child or grandchild claims to need a few thousand dollars after
    an at-fault car accident or for some other reason.
        There is a scam out there designed to entrap each of us.
    Americans are pressured, coerced, coaxed, encouraged, or even
    romanced into emptying their savings, draining their
    retirement, and wiring funds to accounts controlled by criminal
    organizations in other countries.
        Crime groups in Nigeria are known for internet scams, and
    crime groups in India are known for tech support scams. Chinese
    gangs run scam centers in Southeast Asia where trafficked
    individuals are often forced to carry out scam efforts. Those
    scams affect all Americans.
        We focus this hearing on older Americans for a few reasons.
    First, older folks are suffering over a third of all scam
    losses. They often have accumulated more wealth than younger
    Americans, so they have more to lose.
        Second, seniors belong to a generation that is more likely
    to answer the phone and is more likely to experience loneliness
    and isolation directly related to age.
        Lastly, financial exploitation increases the risk of both
    physical and mental health issues, particularly for older
    people. People who have been scammed often experience shame,
    anxiety, depression, and post-traumatic stress. They also have
    an increased risk of suicidal thoughts and actions.
        This isn't just a call to protect the elderly. It is a call
    to defend our country's integrity, its financial security, and
    a moral obligation to protect the innocent.
        Before I call on Senator Durbin, we are going to have a 2-
    minute video demonstrating what we all know is going on.
        Proceed with the video, please.
        [Video is shown.]
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Durbin.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,
               A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

        Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        I want to apologize initially for being late for the
    hearing. We had a bipartisan briefing this morning that
    Senators Thune and Schumer sponsored to discuss the horrific
    assassination of elected officials in Minnesota over the
    weekend, and also the experience of a Member of this
    Subcommittee, Senator Padilla, in Los Angeles last Friday. It
    was a sobering presentation on the question of the
    assassination and the vulnerability of many people in public
    life today. I would say that it calls for action, and this
    Committee is going to be at the heart of it. We are responsible
    for oversight for the Department of Justice, Department of
    Homeland Security, and I believe that we will be called on to
    consider legislation on this subject in a very timely fashion,
    so that is the reason I was late. It certainly is no disrespect
    for the important topic we are discussing.
        The amount of fraud perpetrated against older Americans is
    overwhelming. According to the FBI, people age 60 and older
    reported $4.9 billion--that is billion--stolen through fraud
    with an average loss of $83,000 last year, up 43 percent from
    the previous year. Elder fraud is a growing threat, and it
    frequently goes unreported, as the Chairman said because of the
    victim's fear, embarrassment, or lack of resources. New
    technologies like cryptocur-rency ATMs pose a heightened risk
    for older Americans. We are considering a cryptocurrency
    regulation bill on the floor today. We may even vote on it
    today. Many of us had amendments that we wanted to offer.
    Unfortunately, no amendments will be allowed by any Member of
    the Senate, no amendments. My amendment was to regulate the
    safety of crypto ATMs.
        What are crypto ATMs? They are machines you may find in a
    grocery store or a shop where you do business, and it looks
    like you can buy a Bitcoin, and that is all there is to it.
    There is much more to the story. Crypto ATMs look like a
    regular ATM you find in gas stations, grocery stores. The big
    difference is that instead of depositing money with your bank,
    a crypto ATM allows customers to purchase cryptocurrency,
    something called a Bitcoin.
        These crypto ATMs have become a favorite tool of scammers
    because once a victim purchases crypto and transfers it to a
    criminal's digital wallet, it is virtually impossible to trace
    or recover.
        These scammers might be using new technology, but they are
    following a very old playbook. They call their victim and
    pretend to be from the victim's bank, or they impersonate a
    government official. They may announce to the victim that they
    missed jury duty, and because of it, they have to pay a fine,
    and to avoid a trial and a fine, they go to a Bitcoin machine
    and deposit thousands of dollars. Sounds impossible, happens
    all the time. They may say the victim owes money for skipping
    jury duty or needs to bail a loved one out of jail.
        It happened to my wife. She got a call from our grandson,
    and she was supposed to send money quickly because he had been
    in an auto accident. She called me and said, what do you think
    I should do? And I said, let me ask our grandson, who is
    standing next to me, whether he was in an auto accident, and
    the answer, obviously, was no, it was a scam.
        They tell their victims all they need to do to make the
    problem go away is to pay a fine or a fee using the nearest
    crypto ATM. The scammer walks them through every step. Put in
    your money, buy your crypto, send it to the scammer's wallet.
        Crypto ATM scams led to nearly $247 million in losses in
    2024, 31 percent increase over the previous year. And make no
    mistake, the crypto ATM companies know that their machines are
    involved in this fraud. One crypto ATM operator, Bitcoin Depot,
    wrote in an SEC filing, ``Our products and services may be
    exploited to facilitate illegal activity such as fraud, money
    laundering, gambling, tax evasion, and scams.'' That is a
    stunning admission in their own corporate product.
        But it gets worse. I don't want this to be personal, but I
    want the Chairman to know it. An investigation by Iowa's own
    attorney general found over 98 percent of the money that the
    people in Iowa reported sending through Bitcoin Depot was part
    of scam transactions, 98 percent. Can you imagine? Crypto ATMs
    aren't being exploited. They are being used as indicated and
    misused, obviously, over and over again.
        And cryptocurrency in general are also increasingly used
    for fraud. In 2024, the FBI reported crypto-related crimes up
    66 percent. Americans lost $9.3 billion to crypto scammers,
    nearly 150,000 complaints filed involving crypto fraud,
    including more than 6,000 complaints in my own home State, and
    more than a third of all crypto fraud complaints filed by
    Americans over the age of 50.
        Statistics alone can't paint a complete picture. In
    Illinois, an elderly woman with MS lost $40,000, her entire
    life savings. The woman could not get around very well. The
    scammer even called an Uber car to pick her up and drive her to
    the local crypto ATM. This heart-wrenching story and many more
    like it are the reason I introduced the Crypto ATM Fraud
    Prevention Act with Senators Blumenthal, Reed, and Welch. It
    would require crypto ATM operators to register with financial
    regulators, warn customers about scams, and create transaction
    limits so that customers won't lose their life savings. The
    bill also would require operators to refund new customers who
    have been defrauded.
        We have got to do more to protect the people who send us
    here to do this job, particularly vulnerable older Americans.
    For God's sake, they paid their dues, they went to work, they
    saved up meager savings and maybe have a little Social Security
    on the side, and they barely get by. To be ripped off by one of
    these frauds has got to be beyond embarrassing. It could be
    completely destructive of their lifestyle. I stand ready to
    work with Senator Grassley and my colleagues to address this
    issue.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley. Yes, thank you very much.
        Now, I would like to introduce our witnesses.
        Ms. April Helm, the daughter of a romance scam victim and a
    founding board member of a nonprofit called Advocating Against
    Romance Scammers. Following her mother's tragic death, Ms. Helm
    has dedicated her life to spreading awareness about romance
    scams and helping those victims. She is also host to a podcast
    called Scammer Stories, where she has interviewed over 100
    people from all walks of life who have experienced scams.
        Ms. Jilenne Gunther, the national director of AARP's
    BankSafe Initiative, a comprehensive intervention platform that
    equips the financial services industry to prevent and stop
    financial exploitation of older adults. In her work, she
    engages frontline employees at banks, credit unions, investment
    firms, retailers, and other providers of financial products and
    services. Under her guidance, AARP's BankSafe Initiative has
    trained 1 in 10 financial industry frontline employees who have
    saved older adults more than $100 million from exploitation.
    Ms. Gunther holds a JD degree from University of Utah, master's
    degree in social work from Washington University in St. Louis.
        After Ms. Gunther, we have Joshua Bercu, the executive
    director of the Industry Traceback Group and vice president of
    policy and advocacy at USTelecom, the broadband association.
    Through the Traceback Group, Mr. Bercu leads an effort to
    identify the source and stop illegal calls in his USTelecom
    role. He heads USTelecom's policy development and advocacy on
    digital trust and consumer protection. Before joining
    USTelecom, Mr. Bercu was a partner at the D.C.
    Telecommunications Law firm's privacy practice where he worked
    on automatic calling-related legal, regulatory, and policy
    issues.
        Brady Finta, founder and CEO of the National Elder Fraud
    Coordination Center where Mr. Finta served in the FBI for
    almost 25 years where his work focused on combating organized
    crime, gangs, and child pornography. He also served as
    supervisor of the Cross-Border Violence Task Force where he
    specialized in transnational organized crime investigations
    including kidnappings, murders, cartel finance, and money
    laundering. In 2018, he established the FBI's San Diego Elder
    Justice Task Force and this year he opened and leads the
    National Elder Fraud Coordination Center. The center combats
    scams by aggregating and analyzing private and public sector
    through an organized crime lens. It ties cases together and
    creates high-dollar investigative packages of Federal law
    enforcement investigation.
        Now, before you begin your testimony, we swear members at
    this hearing, so please rise so I can give the oath.
        [Witnesses are sworn in.]
        Chairman Grassley. They have all answered positively.
        Ms. Helm, start out.

     STATEMENT OF APRIL HELM, HOST, SCAMMER STORIES PODCAST, BOARD
      MEMBER, ADVOCATING AGAINST ROMANCE SCAMMERS, TULSA, OKLAHOMA

        Ms. Helm. Thank you, Senator Grassley and Senator Durbin,
    for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is April
    Helm. I'm here because my mother, Sherri Tyson, lost $350,000
    to a romance scam before her passing in 2020 while undergoing
    treatment for late-stage ovarian cancer. It's been a long,
    frustrating, and heartbreaking journey that has brought me to
    this moment.
        And before I share the details, I want to express just how
    surreal it is that I am sitting here with you today. In 2018,
    while undergoing cancer treatment, she became even more
    isolated, more susceptible. One day, while I was headed to a
    football game in my hometown, I received a text from her. It
    said, ``I gave all my money away, I have nothing, come get
    me.'' I was in shock. She promised, but she had lost her
    apartment, her car, everything. I told her she could move in
    with me, but on one condition, and that was she couldn't talk
    to the scammer in my house. She refused. She couldn't let go of
    the fantasy they'd sold her.
        Instead, she moved in with her sister in Mobile, Alabama.
    And when that didn't work out, she asked me to come get her so
    she could start fresh in Dallas with my brother. We made a plan
    to move her that day, but scammers had another plan. One of
    their tactics is to keep victims awake all night, exhausted,
    and disoriented. That morning, as my aunt and my mother were
    preparing to leave, my aunt, who's sitting behind me today,
    found her collapsed on the floor. She never made it to Dallas.
    I believe with all of my heart that if it weren't for the scam,
    I would have seen my mother that day.
        In the early days, there was almost no information online
    about these scams. As someone with a background in radio news,
    I launched a podcast to investigate, to talk with other
    victims, law enforcement, and experts. I've interviewed people
    of all ages and professions who were deceived, smart people. A
    former CIA agent, she lost $1 million, a son of a marriage
    counselor who lost money, a woman who was married to a retired
    colonel.
        This crime isn't just happening to the elderly. It is
    happening to people my age and younger. A woman my age in
    Oklahoma recently made national news because her scam turned
    her into a money mule, like many do, and she is now facing up
    to 62 years in prison.
        I've interviewed the scammers themselves too. One told me
    they like to target Americans because we have money and because
    of what we did with slavery.
        Many victims go to local authorities only to be told
    there's no crime because they gave their money away. Victims
    feel abandoned, penniless, ashamed, and taxed heavily for
    withdrawing their retirement savings. Some even take their own
    lives under the weight of the despair.
        Today, I serve on the board of Advocating Against Romance
    Scammers, a national nonprofit focused on prevention,
    education, and advocacy. My mother deserved better. Every
    victim does. We urgently need Congress to act to ensure no more
    families are shattered by this cruel and complex crime.
        Thank you for your time, and thank you for listening to my
    mother's story.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Helm appears as a submission
    for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley. Thank you very much, Ms. Helm.
        [Off mic.]

    STATEMENT OF JILENNE GUNTHER, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, AARP BANKSAFE
                  INITIATIVE, AARP, NEW YORK, NEW YORK

        Ms. Gunther. Good morning. My name is Jilenne Gunther, and
    I'm the national director of AARP's BankSafe Initiative. I'm
    honored to speak with you today on behalf of more than 100
    million Americans aged 50 and older. I have spent my career
    working to prevent fraud, starting in a prosecutor's office,
    then at the State level in Utah, and now nationally at AARP.
        Congress' work addressing fraud has really opened up
    opportunities for prevention, from providing immunity for
    reporting fraud when financial institutions train their staff,
    to encouraging the sharing of industry-promising practices, and
    we are seeing the results.
        AARP's BankSafe program builds on the goals of those laws.
    We partner with 1,500 financial institutions to stop
    exploitation before the money leaves the account. The free
    training we created with the industry, paired with policy
    adoption, has helped prevent more than $450 million from ever
    being stolen from consumers.
        But this fight is personal. It's in my DNA. My grandfather
    was a banker and a victim. In his 90's, someone was taking cash
    from his wallet. My uncle, also a banker, noticed the red
    flags, and in a move only a banker would think of, he planted a
    dye pack in my grandfather's wallet. Our family literally
    caught the thief red-handed.
        Most families aren't that lucky. They don't have bankers,
    and they don't have dye packs. So that is why I built a program
    at the very bank where my grandfather worked so other families
    wouldn't have to rely on luck to protect the people they love
    because fraud isn't an accident. It's a crime. And it's
    happening at a devastating scale. The FTC reports older adults
    lose between $7 billion and $62 billion a year. In a blink of
    an eye, someone can lose their entire retirement savings.
        The financial industry can be the last line of defense, but
    only if we give them the authority to act. Let me tell you a
    story about Brittany. She is a young college student working as
    a bank teller. After taking AARP's training, she noticed a man
    acting strangely. He wanted to withdraw all of his money from
    his account, and he kept on going outside to take calls. She
    slowed things down, asked the right questions, and she said to
    me, I wouldn't have caught it without the BankSafe training.
    Her actions protected this man's life savings of $50,000. And
    this isn't rare. A study found that Bank Safe-trained staff
    saved 16 times more money than those without the BankSafe
    training.
        But we are still leaving tools on the table. Today, most
    financial institutions can't delay a suspicious transaction
    unless their State specifically allows it. Yet, according to
    the American Bankers Association, 90 percent of institutions in
    those States say holds would be beneficial. A study also
    confirmed that delaying and holding transactions like the one
    that Brittany used are among the most effective frontline
    tools. But there are outdated regulations that really tie the
    hands of the very people best positioned to act in real time.
        Meanwhile, criminals are coordinating across telecom, tech,
    social media, and the financial industry, while we ask these
    same sectors to work in silos. We need a Federal coordinated
    response under your leadership to make this happen. That means
    empowering financial institutions to delay suspicious
    transactions without fear of liability, enabling the real-time
    information-sharing of fraud and requiring social media tech
    and telecom platforms to become part of the solution, not
    hiding places for criminals.
        Australia is already doing this, and it is working. Scam
    losses dropped 43 percent after they launched a national
    response. And this isn't just about stopping theft. It is about
    protecting trust, preventing negative impacts to business and
    government, and ensuring the independence of adults in the
    final years of their life.
        Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Gunther appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley.
        [Off mic.]

      STATEMENT OF JOSHUA M. BERCU, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INDUSTRY
    TRACEBACK GROUP, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, USTelecom, WASHINGTON,
                                  D.C.

        Mr. Bercu. Chairman Grassley, Ranking Member Durbin,
    Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to
    testify today and for your leadership on this critical issue.
    Your continued partnership is vital to sustaining the
    vigilance, innovation, and coordination we need to fight the
    scammers exploiting the American people.
        I'm Josh Bercu, executive director of the Industry
    Traceback Group, or ITG, the FCC-designated entity to traceback
    unlawful robocalls, and senior vice president at USTelecom. I
    have also served on the Aspen Institute's Task Force for Fraud
    and Scam Prevention and the FTC's Scams Against Older Adults
    Advisory Group.
        The communications industry has been making meaningful
    progress confronting scam robocalls. We've deployed tools like
    call blocking and labeling, stir/shaken call authentication,
    and traceback. We are leveraging these tools in the fight
    against ever more personalized fraud schemes. Traceback helps
    us identify the actors behind fraud calls and has supported
    dozens of civil and criminal enforcement actions at every level
    of government. We know the combination of identifying bad
    actors responsible, including through traceback, and then
    holding them accountable works.
        A couple stats here. Raids of Indian call centers in 2016
    led to an overnight 85 percent drop in IRS scam robocalls. And
    a similar Canada-India crackdown in 2018 led to a 77 percent
    decline in similar calls to Canadians.
        Today, thanks to coordinated action by industry and
    government, many of the most disruptive, high-volume scam calls
    no longer reach vulnerable Americans at the same scale. Indeed,
    scam robocalls are down over 50 percent from their 2021 peak.
    But today's fraudsters aren't blasting millions of robocalls
    impersonating the IRS or Social Security Administration. They
    are targeting individuals with live calls and finely tuned
    deception. They spoof bank numbers and pose as fraud teams.
    They impersonate loved ones and local officials to steal from
    their victims. And as we have already heard today, in the case
    of older adults, they can rip away what their victims spent a
    whole life building.
        We are not powerless against these devastating scams. It
    used to take law enforcement months to determine who made an
    illegal call. And now through ITG tracebacks, we often find
    those criminals within hours or days. That speed and
    scalability allow us to keep pace with today's fast-moving
    fraud.
        In recent years, we have proactively expanded our work
    beyond telecom. Our collaborative cross-sector partnerships
    have broad tracebacks reach and relevance as a tool for
    disruption. And they could be a difference maker in building
    actionable criminal cases. While we can't undo what's been
    done, we can go after the bad guys and prevent further harm.
        The threat of foreign actors exploiting U.S. networks is
    not new, but their tactics are evolving. Increasingly, we trace
    calls to foreign actors posing as U.S.-based entities, forming
    shell LLCs, and in some cases, impersonating real companies,
    all tactics designed to evade scrutiny. Criminal enforcement
    remains essential to deter these groups that are orchestrating
    these scams.
        Some tactics, like SIM Box, SIM Box is used to route calls
    from abroad, require actors to be present in the U.S., creating
    a rare opportunity for enforcement. Turning that vulnerability
    into a point of disruption and deterrence should be a clear
    priority.
        We're responding aggressively, but we cannot make arrests
    or prosecute the criminals even when we identify them. That's
    where we need government support. There are three things
    Congress can do that would make a meaningful difference.
        First, establish a national anti-scam strategy with a
    designated Federal lead or task force. We need a coordinated
    Federal response, and we need to treat scams as what they are,
    crimes. Our strategy must prioritize cross-border criminal
    enforcement.
        Second, provide a safe harbor for improved fraud prevention
    and detection. Emerging partnerships across industry sectors
    are showing real promise in identifying and disrupting scams. A
    well-scoped safe harbor could unlock deeper collaboration.
        Third, support and scale what works. As scams evolve, we
    need to double down on tools and partnerships that have shown
    real results.
        While we have made progress, fraud continues to take a
    toll. We must now focus on turning progress into impact,
    helping to deter, disrupt, and penalize fraud, ensuring the
    criminals can't target another victim.
        Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Bercu appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley.
        [Off mic.]

    STATEMENT OF BRADY FINTA, FOUNDER AND CEO, NATIONAL ELDER FRAUD
               COORDINATION CENTER, OCEANSIDE, CALIFORNIA

        Mr. Finta. Good morning, Senators. There was a time not
    long ago when Americans felt comfortable answering the phone
    and talking to strangers. We weren't suspicious of every number
    we didn't already know and skeptical that every text or email
    might be an elaborate scheme to steal from us.
        Fraud has become ubiquitous in our country. For hundreds of
    thousands of older Americans every year, it has a life-altering
    effect, causing them to lose their life savings, damage their
    mental and physical health, withdraw from society, and even to
    commit suicide. As the Chairman said, the FTC estimated losses
    just to our elders at over $62 billion a year. Some of these
    losses include both of my parents.
        Where does it go? Transnational organized crime groups
    overseas, some in countries who are our Nation's adversaries.
    This is a national security threat we as a country are not
    effectively mitigating. It's most clearly manifest in the
    annual statistics from both the FBI and FTC that show dramatic
    increases year after year, particularly among our elders. I'm
    unaware of any other crime which victimizes a particular
    demographic of Americans at these levels.
        I think it's time to admit that what we're doing is not
    enough to stop or even slow the progression of this crime. We
    have to do something more dramatic. I'd like to make some
    recommendations on things our government could do to address
    this enormous problem.
        First, we should better leverage America's private sector
    efforts. Fortunately, many of America's companies already have
    capable anti-fraud and vulnerable persons programs, and they
    are highly skilled at using this data to uncover fraud. But
    these companies have only a small piece of the elder fraud
    puzzle. And this puzzle among companies is not getting put
    together on a regular basis. The same is true with law
    enforcement. Agencies are not sharing information enough, and
    even different departments in the same agencies aren't sharing
    enough.
        Next, we should build a network of elder justice task
    forces across America, EJTFs. As a Nation, we have created task
    forces to combat internet crimes against children, terrorists,
    drug trafficking, and gangs, but not to counter those criminal
    organizations victimizing our parents and grandparents at an
    epidemic level. The power to change this dynamic is within our
    grasp by creating these task forces and teaming them up with
    the public sector.
        Historically, State and local law enforcement had little or
    no role in investigating transnational organized elder fraud
    cases. However, their investigative resources are crucial in
    the solution to this problem because there is just not enough
    Federal agents to adequately counter this threat. Combining
    these resources will allow for more mutually supporting
    investigations across the country, as well as prosecution of
    co-conspirators committing State crimes. This would create the
    capacity to better handle the enormous number of complaints.
    Linking the work of these EJTFs and some national oversight
    would make more effective and efficient mitigation.
        We should build a support network for these EJTFs. Each one
    would need the support of a law enforcement coordination center
    in that region, aggregating and analyzing the elder fraud
    complaints collected by the various law enforcement agencies in
    that area and combine them with complaints from Adult
    Protective Services, IC3, FTC, and the like. These leads can be
    analyzed, prioritized, and used to initiate substantial
    investigations. Proof of this concept lies within the San Diego
    Elder Justice Task Force and the Elder Justice Coordination
    Center that supports that task force.
        Once created, these EJTFs would have the support and the
    resources of the National Elder Fraud Coordination Center, a
    clearinghouse designed to aggregate and analyze and elevate the
    efforts of the private sector. Coupling the EJTFs with this
    coordination center would give America's companies the ability
    to contribute at scale to the elder fraud fight and allow for
    law enforcement to develop bigger, more impactful
    investigations faster. Building this network would be a massive
    first step in bending the curve of elder fraud in America,
    keeping billions in the accounts of older Americans and inside
    the U.S. economy.
        Thank you for your time. I look forward to answering your
    questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Finta appears as a
    submission for the record.]
        Chairman Grassley. I thank each of you for your testimony,
    and I will start, and then Senator Durbin, and back and forth
    that way, 5 minutes each.
        Mr. Finta, requiring fast and efficient sharing of data and
    intelligence is very important. What are the biggest breakdowns
    in information-sharing between Federal, State, and local
    agencies when it comes to elder investigations? Would a more
    formalized information-sharing hub or Federal coordinating
    mandate help track and take down transnational scam networks
    more effectively? I think you have touched on this already, but
    this gives you an opportunity to expand.
        Mr. Finta. Absolutely, Senator. I appreciate the question.
    I believe it's the only way to make an impact on this crime is
    to have a whole-of-society approach and a coordinated approach
    to this. I'll give a perfect example. In just San Diego County,
    12 different law enforcement agencies all independently siloed,
    not sharing information on any of these cases. Until we put
    that together with a coordination center, you didn't realize
    that victims in Carlsbad and Coronado and El Cajon and Santee
    and San Diego were all victimized by the same criminal
    enterprise, not being investigated by any one of those
    individual departments or Federal agencies.
        Unless we do this nationally, I do not think we're going to
    be able to get ahead of this crime that grows every single
    year. However, I do believe we do have the assets nationally
    between our public and private sectors and these efforts. If we
    put them together, I think we could create real impact.
        Chairman Grassley. More time for you with this question.
    How does the National Elder Fraud Coordination Center make a
    difference, and what can Congress learn from your efforts?
        Mr. Finta. So National Elder Fraud Coordination Center, we
    call it NEFC, essentially focuses on pre-existing efforts
    predominantly in the private sector. I'll give you another
    example. Amazon does investigations into fraud and vulnerable
    persons programs. They come up with a certain number of
    selectors related to the bad guys in their investigations. We
    take those selectors, and we share them with telecoms, banks,
    other nonprofits, other different financial institutions, tech
    companies, and we aggregate the information that they've
    collected on those same selectors in order to present to law
    enforcement.
        What that does, it gives law enforcement a huge jumpstart
    in a type of investigation that would normally take months and
    months and months to get to that point, saving effort and
    making each case more impactful.
        Chairman Grassley. Mr. Bercu, a recent survey sponsored by
    Google said 53 percent of Americans report receiving at least
    one scam call per day. What should we be doing as a Nation to
    regain trust in our telecommunications system and to protect
    citizens from the growing rates of scam calls?
        Mr. Bercu. Thank you, Senator, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And I think our industry shares that concern. We all want the
    same thing, calls people want getting through, calls people
    don't want getting through, and that's what the industry has
    really been focused on.
        I think the way to really focus on that is we really do
    have to go after the bad guys. We've built a lot of protections
    in the network. There's been a lot of enforcement against
    enablers of that, and what we see is that the criminals behind
    this just keep adapting and finding new pathways, so I think
    that's really got to be part of the answer, going after the bad
    guys.
        Chairman Grassley. Ms. Gunther, 13 different agencies
    currently play some role in collecting data about and fighting
    scams. There is criticism that they operate in silos, and there
    is a lot of talk lately about the need to centralize data
    collection about scams. How might it bolster our law
    enforcement efforts if financial institutions were able to
    report fraud to a central repository accessible by law
    enforcement authorities and financial institutions?
        Ms. Gunther. Thank you for the question, Senator. It's a
    great point. Right now, we're very siloed. The IC3 with the FBI
    is collecting data. The FTC's collecting data, and then the
    Department of Treasury is, and those really need to be
    aggregated together so that people can report into that and we
    can understand more and more about what's happening in this
    area so that we can have better statistics and know what these
    criminal networks are doing.
        And I think one of the biggest barriers to that is really
    the privacy concerns that they have with financial institutions
    not being able to share information because of consumer privacy
    regulations.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Durbin.
        Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        I listened to your testimony, and I am glad to hear all of
    it, and I think we are all on the same page. The one thing that
    I am surprised is if there was any reference to crypto ATMs, I
    didn't hear it. I think that is the new device that is being
    used with great success by the scam artist.
        And I would just refer again to my neighboring State of
    Iowa represented by the Chairman. Their attorney general is on
    this case looking at crypto ATMs. An investigation by the Iowa
    Attorney General's Office found over 98 percent of the money
    Iowans reported sending to Bitcoin Depot were part of a scam
    transaction, 98 percent. It gets worse. CoinFlip, another one
    of these operations, 95 percent for fraudulent transactions.
    These aren't real.
        I had a vaping shop in my hometown of Springfield,
    Illinois. I asked them to finally remove the crypto ATM machine
    because the owner was so embarrassed by the older people who
    came in there crying, tearing up, screaming, putting money into
    a machine believing that they were saving themselves from a
    criminal prosecution. I mean, it is an outrage.
        So Ms. Gunther, you know what I did with my bill because I
    worked with AARP to do it. Do you support it?
        Ms. Gunther. Yes, we do support it, and we've seen
    firsthand at AARP how victims are being funneled to these
    crypto ATMs by people, a variety of criminals. And what
    criminals do is they want to go to those transactions because
    there are no guardrails to these, right? There's no trained
    staff like you have----
        Senator Durbin. No do-over.
        Ms. Gunther. Yep, no do-over. There are no consumer
    warnings, and there's no claw back. And that's why it's so
    important to have those guardrails. It's the same that we have
    guardrails in our traditional financial industry with banks and
    credit unions. We have seen that with BankSafe, when there's
    friction in the system, it gives people that pause to think
    something's wrong. And so by putting those frictions in the
    system with crypto ATMs, it will help cut down on fraud.
        But I think we really can't get to it until we get to the
    front end of the issue, which is trying to figure out how to
    cut it off, the communication from the criminals that are using
    the social media tech and telecom company platforms to
    communicate with consumers.
        Senator Durbin. What percentage is using a telephone now
    for these scam transactions?
        Ms. Gunther. You know, I don't know that specific
    statistic, but I'm happy to get that for you for our office.
        Senator Durbin. Mr. Bercu, how much?
        Mr. Bercu. I don't know for sure either, but, you know, it
    is something that we're continuing to focus on is when that
    communication comes through a phone call.
        Senator Durbin. So when I warn senior citizens who are
    worried about these scams, be very doubtful of that telephone
    call. You are not going to get the telephone call from the
    Veterans Administration or the Social Security Administration.
    They are making it up. It is all phony, and they are trying to
    get you to do something you shouldn't do.
        I can recall getting a call from my bank, and they said, we
    are just checking a suspicious transaction. By the time of the
    end of the phone call, it was clear it was a scam. I told the
    fellow I just wasn't going to follow through, and he had some
    choice words for me. But is it safe to warn senior citizens to
    be extremely doubtful and careful when they receive this
    telephone communication?
        Mr. Bercu. I think, unfortunately, the current status of
    fraud, it is good to have everyone on their toes. I know AARP
    just launched a new campaign. I can't quote it, but it's
    ``pause and listen,'' so I think that's really good
    recommendations. And one thing I always tell people, if it's a
    bank calling, tell them you're going to hang up and call back
    the bank's public number, and if they protest, it's not the
    bank.
        Senator Durbin. That will be the end of the story. So if
    anybody asks you for a Social Security number over a telephone,
    what is the answer?
        Mr. Bercu. No, thank you.
        Senator Durbin. Never do it. How about passwords to get
    into your accounts?
        Mr. Bercu. That--I would recommend against that as well.
        Senator Durbin. Let me ask you about the crypto issue, Mr.
    Finta. You seem to be aware of it yourself.
        Mr. Finta. Yes, sir. Yes, Senator, very common in pretty
    much every transnational elder fraud case now. It's kind of
    hard to find one without crypto transactions and specifically
    the ATMs.
        Senator Durbin. I think some 13 States now have put in
    safeguards by their State law. Because I cannot offer an
    amendment to the crypto bill, there will be no amendments, I
    won't even be able to raise this issue on a National basis. We
    have got to do it once and for all. This is a classic example
    of an amendment which, when I was here a few years ago, would
    have been accepted on a bipartisan basis, trying to establish
    some safety when it comes to these scam transactions. But we
    are being allowed by the crypto industry no amendments, none,
    to this bill. Take it or leave it.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Moody.
        Senator Moody. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you to all
    our witnesses for being here today.
        I am one of the newest Members of the Senate. As you can
    see, I am sitting at the kids' table down here----
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Moody [continuing]. The most junior Member of this
    Committee, but the most excited because I was a former Federal
    prosecutor, a judge, the attorney general of the great State of
    Florida, and now I get the opportunity to take all of that that
    I have learned and experienced, especially as it relates to
    seniors and some of the issues we are talking about, and delve
    in on a nationwide basis.
        And I want to thank you because, as I am hearing you, you
    are coming up with real solutions and recommendations, pointing
    out challenges in the way we are structured, in the way we
    share information, the way we might approach this in a more
    organized, efficient way. And I haven't heard once that the way
    we can fix this is to throw a ton of money at the situation. In
    fact, I think I heard multiple times, we have the resources, we
    are just not using them in the best way.
        And so, as I have been here now for almost 5 months, one
    thing that continues to shock me is that we will sit through
    these hearings--I believe I have sat on a hearing of similar
    substance--and going down the line, we need more money, we need
    more money, if you only give us more money, if you only give us
    more money. And it seems pretty now obvious how we have ended
    up as a Nation with $36 trillion in debt because there is a
    culture now here in Washington, and I guess it is now expected
    by everyone to fix a problem, the only way to do that is you
    just throw endless amounts of cash at it.
        And I have found over the course of my career in working
    with law enforcement and interest groups as to particular law
    enforcement issues that sometimes it is a leadership issue, or
    it is a coordination issue, or it is a structure issue. And it
    might take a lot less money if we fix that problem first, and
    so, thank you. This is a refreshing morning of people who know
    what they are talking about, genuinely offering solutions that
    doesn't just include throwing endless amounts of cash at a
    situation.
        And I want to echo something that Ms. Helm said. This
    problem spans all walks of life. Smart people are falling for
    these issues. And I think the specific reason seniors are
    targeted is because they have life savings, and sometimes they
    are not as adept or skilled at using rapidly evolving
    technology, whether that is to safeguard their assets that
    they're trying to manage online, or whether they are not used
    to using social media platforms in a way that is safe. So this
    is a challenge.
        As attorney general, I noticed very quickly that our
    Federal agencies many times have a limit or a loss where they
    will actually prosecute. And sometimes that could be $5
    million. And while the average person might lose what seems to
    be a little bit amount to a Federal agency, when accumulated
    amongst all the victims, it could in fact exceed that, but we
    are not sharing information and we don't know what that true
    loss is.
        So in Florida as attorney general, we set out to create the
    first of its kind in the Nation at a statewide level, working
    with our individual counties of law enforcement and even then
    our cities to make sure they knew that there was a State-level
    resource to share this information, these victims, so we could
    accumulate that data and go after. And we saw some success
    right away. You have the skilled people at the statewide level
    that were able to help their local jurisdictions and law
    enforcement, and if it met a certain threshold, then start
    working with the Federal Government when they would take that.
        And I will start with you, Mr. Bercu. I think you alluded
    to this. Do you believe that having a Federal approach or one
    person in charge of working with States at a statewide level to
    start developing the expertise and law enforcement acumen as it
    relates to cyber crime and cyber fraud in seniors is absolutely
    needed right now because we are seeing more and more of these
    cases take place and could in fact exceed what would be a
    Federal cutoff?
        Mr. Bercu. Yes, I think absolutely. I think it's right for
    Federal leadership, for Federal coordination with the States
    and across the Federal Government too because even with the
    Federal, the FTC, FBI, FCC, DOJ, they all have a role. And so
    just that--we need a central coordinator that raises this issue
    to the level of prioritization it deserves.
        Senator Moody. And I will turn to you, Mr. Finta. You kept
    referencing the problem here are these silos. There is no
    information gathering. There is no real organizational
    structure to have the folks that are dealing with it at a
    Federal level interfacing with statewide because most States
    don't have targeted teams like this. What would be your
    recommendation if one were to approach doing that at a Federal
    level? Where would you even start?
        Mr. Finta. I would basically start with what we already
    have. We've figured this problem out to some degree with
    respect to internet crimes against children where we put ICAC
    task forces in every major city in the United States,
    predominantly staffed by State and local officers with a
    prosecution model, DA's Office, U.S. Attorney's Office working
    together. These ICACs are able to actually infuse the hundreds
    of thousands of leads they get every year.
        We could duplicate that with EJTFs and actually start to
    get our hands wrapped around this problem. And the thing that
    we don't understand or that we're not seeing is because there
    are so few cases right now, the amalgamation of the
    intelligence of those few cases will get dramatically
    heightened when you have more of those cases. So if we just
    mimicked that model and built these EJTFs, it would start to
    change things.
        Senator Moody. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Klobuchar.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And I
    want to thank my colleagues for the kind words about the
    murders that happened in Minnesota and the work that needs to
    be done going forward. The people we lost were tremendous
    people.
        And so I will start with a question actually out of the
    U.S. Attorney's Office in Minnesota because they presented the
    evidence yesterday to the Nation. In 2023--and they are fine
    people that work there--they successfully prosecuted three
    people who defrauded over 150,000 elderly victims across the
    country, stole nearly $300 million from them by convincing
    seniors to pay to enroll in fraudulent magazine subscriptions.
    It was one of the largest elder fraud schemes in our Nation.
        Like Senator Moody, my former life as a prosecutor, I
    actually started an elder white-collar crime division in our
    county attorney's office and know how bad this can be.
        Mr. Finta, what barriers do these government and law
    enforcement agencies face in seeking information necessary to
    fight scams, securing information?
        Mr. Finta. Well, unfortunately, I think there's a pervasive
    thought process, particularly among our local law enforcement
    agencies that there's nothing we can do. Bad guys are overseas,
    money is in crypto, it's already gone. There is always
    something we can do, especially if we just start documenting
    these cases and working together. There's plenty of people in
    the United States who are co-conspirators in these criminal
    enterprises that are necessary for them to operate effectively.
    Those turn into great leads as soon as they get arrested.
        Senator Klobuchar. Right, thank you.
        Ms. Gunther, in 2022, Senator Collins and I actually
    enacted a bill, passed a bill, Senior Fraud Prevention Act, to
    create an office in the FTC focused on fighting scams that
    target seniors, education, which some of you have referred to.
    Quickly, do you agree that investing resources targeted at
    stopping elder fraud scams is an effective strategy in trying
    to educate seniors?
        Ms. Gunther. I definitely think that with educating
    seniors, it's part of a step that we need to have. We know that
    it's effective when we're actually educating people, and
    there's different ways to educate people with behavioral tools
    so they're actually making changes and can recognize and spot
    those specific red flags of a scam. So we do think--but there
    are other tools. We need to give tools to the financial
    industry to actually stop suspicious transactions because
    education isn't all--is not a one--it's not a one-size-fits-
    all. We need to give--we need to have a coordinated Federal
    response. We need financial institutions to be able to stop----
        Senator Klobuchar. So just----
        Ms. Gunther [continuing]. You know, pause----
        Senator Klobuchar. Exactly.
        Ms. Gunther [continuing]. On those suspicious----
        Senator Klobuchar. And then one of the things I am
    concerned about is just slashing the FTC's Bureau of Consumer
    Protection budget by 13 percent or effectively dismantling the
    CFPP, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. To me, that
    seems like a bigger problem, which is what is in the budget
    right now that we just received from the administration. Could
    you comment on that?
        Ms. Gunther. Yes, I can't comment on that, but I can put
    you in contact with someone from our office.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Very good. But I just think we
    should realize what is going on.
        I want to turn quickly to AI. I actually have had in my--
    someone I know well whose son serves in the Marines. He got a
    call when his son was deployed that was his son's voice that
    had been scraped off the internet. This isn't a senior scam,
    but we are seeing so much of this with seniors. And saying, I
    am in trouble, I need money, basically. And he figured out
    something was wrong when he started asking questions and hung
    up. But I think the grandma might not have done that or the
    grandpa.
        Ms. Helm, you testified about some of the ways scammers
    have ruined lives. What should people know about the dangers of
    AI-generated scams?
        Ms. Helm. Yes, when my mother went through her scam, this
    was right before AI exploded, so they used very archaic tools
    of a video of a man in a dark room, and they would voice over
    the actor in the video. And they were actually pretty
    convincing, enough to convince my mom to give $350,000 away.
        But with artificial intelligence, this is going to explode.
    They are so convincing, and they've got money to back people up
    to make--to back people up to make these scams even more
    convincing. They'll send you a $100,000 check, and it will
    cash.
        Senator Klobuchar. Makes you think we should be doing some
    rules of the road on AI, which we have had a bipartisan effort
    going on. And one of my biggest fears of this is just the scams
    that are going to affect individual people. Senator Blackburn
    and Senator Coons and Tillis and I have worked on deepfakes,
    but we have to make sure this incorporates some of these scams
    going forward with what we do.
        Ms. Gunther, do you want to add anything on AI?
        Ms. Gunther. Yes, so with artificial intelligence, it is
    very scary. We're seeing them adopted. We're getting calls,
    hearing from our members where they're cloning voices. It's
    very difficult to use AI to detect that, and so that's why it's
    really important to have other tools as well. Not only do banks
    need to adopt artificial intelligence, but they need to do it
    at a faster pace. But they also have to use other tools in the
    bucket as multifactor authentication as well.
        Thank you.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Blackburn.
        Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And to each of you, thank you for being here.
        Ms. Helm, I thank you for weighing in and working with us
    as we developed the Romance Scam bill that we have been moving
    forward with at Commerce Committee.
        Ms. Helm. Thank you.
        Senator Blackburn. And I appreciate your input on that. You
    know, one of the things we realized was the entry point for a
    lot of these scams and these financial crimes are the dating
    apps, and especially the dating apps for seniors. And so when
    you talk about an entry point, that seems to have been it.
        But what we have learned, and Mr. Chairman alluded to this
    in his opening, these are really transnational organizations,
    and this is a big business. And I know U.S. consumers lost, the
    estimate is $1.3 billion last year in these scams. But that is
    what is reported. And we know many of these don't get reported
    because of embarrassment, or they figured it out, but they have
    already lost several thousand dollars in the process.
        And as we were working on our legislation, what we found is
    that some of these sophisticated transnational criminal
    organizations will actually promise people that they will get
    them to another country, many times the U.S., for high-paying
    jobs.
        But what actually happens is it is a form of human
    trafficking tied to it. They are brought here, and then they
    are placed in what are called fraud dens. And in these fraud
    dens, they work the internet, they work the phones, and they
    create these relationships, and then they are scamming people
    out of hundreds of millions of dollars every year and telling
    these individuals that they were going to bring to the U.S. and
    people that they are trafficking that they have to work out
    their debt, so that is how they keep them in these dens.
        But Mr. Finta, I want you to speak for a minute about these
    transnational organizations and what we know about them and
    their underpinning as it relates to these crimes.
        Mr. Finta. Thank you, Senator. These TOC, transnational
    organized crime groups, they're not really any different than
    the Mexican cartels, the, you know, TOC groups doing cyber
    crimes. They're configured relatively similarly, particularly
    in the way they launder the money.
        So one thing that we noticed doing elder fraud
    investigations is that a lot of the money that we were tracing
    through these accounts was also in the same accounts with
    proceeds from narcotic sales, human trafficking, all kinds of
    other crimes. So it's not necessarily about the crime as much
    as the criminal groups.
        So we have the sophistication in our government and in our
    private industry to do these investigations if we coordinate
    them and work them together to have more effect. I think it's
    more a function of us choosing how to do that as opposed to
    letting the crooks choose because they're plenty sophisticated.
    We need to be at that same level.
        Senator Blackburn. Yes, and I think--and you alluded to
    this earlier--as we have worked on the Kids Online Safety Act
    and worked with industry and worked with parents, we have seen
    some of this skillset develop, and it could be transferred
    over.
        Mr. Bercu, I want to ask you--and thank you for the work
    you have done on tracing the illegal phone calls, the robocalls
    and those things. Talk a little bit about traceback and give me
    an example of where traceback and/or a cross-sector
    collaboration has led to a criminal conviction and to
    unraveling part of this network.
        Mr. Bercu. Yes, thank you for the question. I think we
    would love to see more of our work lead to criminal
    convictions, and that's where we just really think that needs
    to be a priority. Where a lot of our work--so we trace the
    calls, we get examples from illegal calls, referrals from law
    enforcement, data we source ourselves, working with the
    financial institutions, tech companies, others, and we'll trace
    that back to the source. And basically, we see 8 to 10
    different voice service providers touch that call along the
    way, and so that's why we need traceback to find out where it
    really came from, who made the call. So that's the traceback
    effort. It's been very successful in civil enforcement. Where
    we'd love to see it amped up is in the criminal side.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. Let me ask you this. With Wi-Fi
    calling, have you been able to follow any on Wi-Fi calling? And
    if someone is using a VPN, does that obstruct your work?
        Mr. Bercu. So for us, yes, our focus--if it hits the public
    telephone network, we trace it back. If it's purely over the
    top, like a WhatsApp call, that would be outside the scope of
    what we do.
        Senator Blackburn. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Whitehouse.
        Senator Whitehouse. Thanks very much.
        I just want to flag for any Rhode Islanders who might be
    listening, that if you are getting texts and emails that say
    you owe a toll and that proceedings are about to begin against
    you because of unpaid tolls or tickets, consider that to be a
    scam and be very wary about clicking onto any link in that text
    that purports to be the way that you are going to pay off the
    unpaid toll or ticket and know instead that this is almost
    certainly a scam.
        The Department of Motor Vehicles and the Rhode Island
    Bridge and Turnpike Authority have both put out notices that
    these are not their way of dealing with customers who owe them
    money. And so when you see that, be very, very wary. That is my
    public service announcement for the day.
        I would also like to put into the record the story of a
    Rhode Islander who was the victim of a romance scam and lost a
    great deal of money to a scammer who was sentenced to serve 121
    months in prison by then Chief Judge John Jack McConnell in
    Rhode Island.
        It is hard to overstate what happens to an elderly person
    who is both betrayed by someone who she thought was a romantic
    interest, who she thought was a friend who she had come to
    count on, and then also to come back from that and find that
    her finances are in complete disarray, and she is going to have
    to really rethink what the rest of her life looks like, that it
    is going to change her entire financial position going forward.
        So I ask unanimous consent to put that into the record.
        Chairman Grassley. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
        Senator Whitehouse. One of the things that helps the
    fraudsters is anonymity that is very often provided by VPNs or
    by fake names. Very often the big platforms have a role in all
    of this, and we don't have a whole lot of time right now, but I
    really would be grateful if each of you, if you have thoughts
    about what the best things that we could do to penetrate the
    anonymity where it is a part of a scam and to figure out how to
    hold the platforms more accountable for supporting these
    frauds. I would be grateful because I think, you know, this has
    been a good hearing, Mr. Chairman. It has been very bipartisan.
    Everybody has constituents who are being scammed by these
    predatory folks. Some of them are from overseas.
        When I was U.S. attorney, we had what they called 419, I
    think they called them, scams, where like a Nigerian minister
    suddenly discovered that he had $4 million squirreled away and
    just needed to get your account information so he could store
    it in your account, and you would get $2 million of the $4
    million, and he would get the $2 million. It was going to be a
    great deal. All you had to do was give him all your bank
    information. Yes, how did that work out?
        So the more we can drill into who is really behind these
    things, the trick with those is trying to figure out who was at
    the other end of it. And the Secret Service did a pretty good
    job of investigating. But now, anonymity is even worse, and
    therefore, these frauds are practiced more prevalently and with
    less accountability.
        So your thoughts on dealing with the anonymity problem and
    how we can break through that to find the perpetrators more
    regularly, I would really be grateful for.
        And thank you for the hearing, Chairman. Question for the
    record, we will call that.
        Chairman Grassley. Senator Hirono.
        [Off mic.]
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank all of
    our witnesses.
        Clearly, scamming elders has been going on for way, way too
    long, and I think they are a particularly vulnerable group of
    people because perhaps part of it is that, one, they may have
    resources, but two, they may be trusting. They may be trusting.
    I remember telling my mom who lived with us that if anyone ever
    calls to not respond to them and she said, but that is very
    rude because I told her, you have to just hang up. She said,
    that is very rude. I said, well, then just say no thank you and
    hang up. But I think that, you know, the fact that they are
    very vulnerable is, yes, one wonders what more we can do. I
    think there is more, of course.
        So I think there is bipartisan support for the idea that we
    should work together to combat this type of targeted fraud, but
    it is, you know, pretty much all kinds of fraud that has to do
    with the financial fraud. And the thing is that it bothers me
    that in February, the CFPB was effectively shut down. And as we
    know, CFPB educated Americans about scams and responded to
    complaints, and it returned over $21 billion from basically
    financial scams. So this is not a time to be shutting down a
    very effective agency. And that is probably maybe one of the
    reasons that it is being shut down.
        And then in April, the DOJ announced that it was disbanding
    its National Cryptocurrency Enforcement Team and would no
    longer target crypto-mixing services that criminals used to
    launder the proceeds of their scams. And I led a letter to the
    DOJ asking for a briefing on this topic, but I received no
    answer. And we know that there are these crypto ATMs that are
    very busy scamming money from unsuspecting people, so there is
    a lot going on.
        And hearing from all of you, I was particularly interested
    in Ms. Gunther saying that--and you represent AARP. Now, that
    is one group that spends a lot of time informing your members
    about these kinds of scams. But you mentioned that there is
    more that the financial industry can do to alert people, could
    be alerting their relatives, that their parents are being
    scammed, whatever. And you said that Australia had done
    something, had enacted legislation to enable financial
    institutions to put holds on what could be raised red flags.
    Can you tell us more about what Australia has done?
        Ms. Gunther. Yes, absolutely. Australia is a great,
    promising practice. It's been in the last year or two that
    they've put this together. They've done kind of what we've all
    been talking about here today, which is a coordinated national
    response, but it's also bringing all of the players in the
    ecosystem, every point of the scam, of the journey of the scam
    for a consumer, whether that's telecom, social media, the
    financial industry, tech companies, all together to make them
    responsible because I think we're looking just at the end
    point, which is the financial industry.
        And to your first part of your question is that the
    financial industry, their arms are tied because they're not
    able to, when they tell or seize, hey, this is suspicious,
    there's a red flag here, they're not able--and that person
    still wants their money. Because of old regulations, they have
    to process that in about half of those States. Half the States
    don't have the ability to hold.
        Senator Hirono. So do the other witnesses agree that this
    is something we can look at doing, following what Australia is
    doing to bring a lot of people together? In fact, Mr. Bercu,
    you said that there should be a nationally coordinated response
    to these kinds of scams. So would you agree that--would all of
    you agree that, you know, we need to focus on what is happening
    to our elders and put together a national response? Would you
    all agree that that would be a good thing? And it would
    probably require legislation.
        Mr. Bercu. I mean, I can say I agree. I think there's a lot
    of work the industry is doing. There's little segments of work
    that's across it, but I think we need a government-led national
    strategy that's in coordination with the private sector,
    absolutely.
        Mr. Finta. I couldn't agree more.
        Senator Hirono. Okay. I did have one last question for Ms.
    Helm. It sounds as though your mother, not only was she scammed
    by this romance scam, but even when she knew that this was a
    scam, she still continued to want to participate. So there is a
    whole psychological aspect to this kind of scam that we need to
    also address.
        Ms. Helm. That's the biggest riddle of this whole thing. I
    could not get my mother to stop. And all the families I speak
    to, about 90 percent of them email me or call me and say, how
    can I get my family member to stop? And that's the answer that
    I--that keeps me up at night. I don't have an answer. I know we
    do need more therapists who are aware of the problem. And there
    is one therapist in particular, Cathy Wilson, out of Littleton,
    Colorado, who is putting a program together to teach other
    therapists about the emotional impact of romance scamming.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Grassley [off mic]. This concludes our hearing. I
    thank all the witnesses for the hard work you put into it and
    the time you spent to get here to share your personal
    experience and your expertise, and your perspectives are pretty
    darn important to everybody that gets hurt by these crimes.
        Now, we have a process for written questions. They can be
    submitted for the record for 1 week from today. And then for
    you witnesses, for answering these written questions, we would
    like to have you 2 weeks after you receive them, if you could
    get them back to us.
        Thank you all very much.
        [Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
        [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                                A P P E N D I X

    The following submissions are available at:

      https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-119shrg61841/pdf/CHRG-
        119shrg
        61841-add1.pdf

    Submitted by Chair Grassley:

     Certified Threat Intelligence Analyst (CTIA), statement..........     2

     Charlotte, Ayleen, statement.....................................    19

     Department of Justice (DOJ), statement...........................    22

     Defense Credit Union Counsel (DCUC), letter......................    30

     LoveSaid, Fraud Centre & Think Tank, The Science of Being
        Scammed: Why Romance Fraud Is More Than a Scam, statement.....    33

     Stop Scams Alliance, statement...................................    37

    Submitted by Ranking Member Durbin:

     America's Credit Unions, statement...............................    50

     Certified Threat Intelligence Analyst (CTIA), statement..........     2

     Community Bankers Association of Illinois, statement.............    52

    Submitted by Senator Whitehouse:

     Romance scam artist from Nigeria who targeted RI widow going to
        prison, The Providence Journal, news article..................    56

                                     [all]