[Senate Hearing 119-128]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 119-128
HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING NOMINATIONS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
JULY 23, 2025
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
61-270 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
Jerry Moran, Kansas, Chairman
John Boozman, Arkansas Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut,
Bill Cassidy, Louisiana Ranking Member
Thom Tillis, North Carolina Patty Murray, Washington
Dan Sullivan, Alaska Bernard Sanders, Vermont
Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii
Kevin Cramer, North Dakota Margaret Wood Hassan, New
Tommy Tuberville, Alabama Hampshire
Jim Banks, Indiana Angus S. King, Jr., Maine
Tim Sheehy, Montana Tammy Duckworth, Illinois
Ruben Gallego, Arizona
Elissa Slotkin, Michigan
David Shearman, Staff Director
Tony McClain, Democratic Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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July 23, 2025
SENATORS
Page
Hon. Jerry Moran, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Kansas............. 1
Hon. Richard Blumenthal, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from
Connecticut.................................................... 2
Hon. Tommy Tuberville, U.S. Senator from Alabama................. 12
Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine................. 13
Hon. Tim Sheehy, U.S. Senator from Montana....................... 15
Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire....... 17
Hon. Marsha Blackburn, U.S. Senator from Tennessee............... 19
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii................... 20
Hon. Thom Tillis, U.S. Senator from North Carolina............... 22
INTRODUCER
Hon. Tim Sheehy, U.S. Senator from Montana....................... 5
NOMINEES
John Bartrum, Nominee to be Under Secretary for Health, U.S.
Department of Veterans Affairs................................. 3
Jeremiah Workman, Nominee to be Assistant Secretary for Veterans'
Employment and Training, U.S. Department of Labor.............. 6
APPENDIX
Submissions for the Record
The New York Times article ``Facing Painful Cuts, the V.A.
Reported Dubious Savings to DOGE''............................. 31
The Guardian article `` `Profound alarm' : US veterans agency
roiled by fight over anti-discrimination provisions''.......... 43
Government Executive article ``Internal Veterans Affairs memo
shows plan to scrutinize disability work from home
accommodations''............................................... 53
Federal News Network article ``VA loses 7,500 employees in
veteran-facing roles amid shrinking workforce''................ 55
Nomination Material
John Bartrum, Nominee
Prepared statement............................................. 63
Response to Pre-Hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:
Hon. Jerry Moran............................................. 65
Hon. Richard Blumenthal...................................... 71
Response to Additional Pre-Hearing Questions submitted by:
Hon. Richard Blumenthal...................................... 81
Response to Questions for the Record submitted by:
Hon. Jerry Moran............................................. 82
Hon. Richard Blumenthal...................................... 85
Hon. Bill Cassidy............................................ 88
Hon. Ruben Gallego........................................... 90
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono......................................... 92
Hon. Angus S. King, Jr....................................... 95
Hon. Elissa Slotkin.......................................... 96
Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees........................ 97
Jeremiah Workman, Nominee
Prepared statement............................................. 113
Response to Pre-Hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:
Hon. Jerry Moran............................................. 116
Hon. Richard Blumenthal...................................... 134
Response to Questions for the Record submitted by:
Hon. Bill Cassidy............................................ 147
Hon. Mazie K. Hirono......................................... 149
Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees........................ 152
HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING
NOMINATIONS
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WEDNESDAY, JULY 23, 2025
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:02 p.m., in
Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Jerry Moran,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Moran, Cassidy, Tillis, Blackburn,
Tuberville, Sheehy, Blumenthal, Hirono, Hassan, and King.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,
CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS
Chairman Moran. Good afternoon, everyone. The hearing will
come to order. Thank you-all for being present with us to
consider the nominees for the VA's Under Secretary for Health
and the Department of Labor's Assistant Secretary for Veterans'
Employment and Training (VETS).
Making sure that the veterans can access timely, high
quality healthcare as well as meaningful and gainful employment
when they are separated from the military service are two of
the highest priorities this Committee has, and certainly
something that's important to our grateful nation.
In many ways, VA's Under Secretary for Health and DOL's
Assistant Secretary for Veterans' Employment and Training bear
the bulk of the responsibilities for meeting these missions.
I'm grateful to have two dedicated public servants, John
Bartrum and Jeremiah Workman, before us today as the nominees
for these two important positions.
While progress has been made to improve access to
healthcare and high-paying jobs, far too many veterans in
Kansas and across the country continue to struggle to take full
advantage of their earned benefits from the VA and the
Department of Labor.
Mr. Bartrum is a major general in the Air Force Reserve,
and Mr. Workman a decorated marine veteran. They know these
struggles well, and they're both eager to make it easier for
their fellow veterans to thrive in their civilian lives. I look
forward to hearing their plans and priorities, and I appreciate
both nominees and their family members for being with us today
and their willingness to take on these critical roles, if
confirmed.
With that, I yield to the Ranking Member, Senator
Blumenthal.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT
Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you both
for your service to our country and for your willingness now to
serve our veterans. We're going to talk today about your
qualifications and your vision for your responsibilities and
the roles that you've been nominated for.
But first of all, I think we ought to talk about the
factual background to your nominations. Let me ask Mr. Chairman
that four articles be entered into the record; ``Facing Painful
Cuts, the V.A. Reported Dubious Savings'' from The New York
Times; `` `Profound Alarm' : US veterans agency roiled by fight
over anti-discrimination provisions'' from The Guardian;
``Internal Veterans Affairs memo shows plans to scrutinize
disability work from home accommodations'' from Government
Executive, and finally, ``VA loses 7,500 employees in veteran-
facing roles as part of workforce cuts'' from the Federal News
Network.
Chairman Moran. Without objection.
[The articles referred to appear on pages 31-59 of the
Appendix.]
Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. The Federal News Network
article published yesterday highlights the loss of 1,720
registered nurses, 600 doctors, 1,150 medical support
assistants, close to 200 police officers, 80 psychologists, and
1,100 claims examiners.
According to The New York Times investigation, while the VA
is claiming these cruel cuts are saving taxpayer dollars,
contract terminations and employees firing actually resulted in
an estimate of 25 percent increase in VA spending compared to
last year, 25 percent higher spending because of these cuts.
Something's wrong with this picture.
Over the same period of time last year, the Biden
administration had a net increase of 3,200 registered nurses,
232 doctors, 1,570 medical support assistants, 191 police
officers, and 1,484 claims examiners. I have insisted on
regular order for the VA nominees so the Senate can have
appropriate and necessary debate on the floor about people
nominated to lead the VA.
And Mr. Bartrum, you've been there from the beginning, from
the beginning of this administration. You have been a senior
advisor to Secretary Collins since day one, and presumably
involved in these decisions in some way or another. The VA
announced recently, it's abandoning the Secretary's disastrous
plan to fire 8,300 employees----
Senator King. 83,000.
Senator Blumenthal. 83,000. Thank you. Thank you Senator
King. 83,000, emphasizing how many there are. That is a
reversal of position due to forceful opposition from Members of
Congress, but even more importantly, veterans and VSOs. And
alarmingly, the VA is poised to lose instead 30,000 employees
by the end of this year, along with 40,000 pre-existing
vacancies with no intention of backfilling those positions. At
least one VA facility recently had 50 mental health providers
leave due to toxic work conditions created by the
administration.
Secretary Collins says this will have no effect on
veterans' healthcare. With all due respect, I think that
contention is simply false. Despite the value and efforts of
frontline VA employees across the country who are spread
dangerously thin, the loss of dedicated workers in that
magnitude cannot help but impact VA healthcare.
All this has happened, Mr. Bartrum, again, while you have
been working as a senior advisor to Secretary Collins, and
that's why I think we deserve to know what else you have
planned if you are confirmed at VHA.
Mr. Workman, if confirmed, you'll be leading a department,
the Department of Labor, Veterans' Employment and Training
Division, and as you know from your own personal experience,
that transition from active duty to civilian life can be
extraordinarily challenging. You've experienced it, and right
now, again, I'm afraid due to the Trump administration's
actions, veterans are unemployed at rates not seen since the
height of the COVID pandemic.
The veteran unemployment rate is up almost a full
percentage point since this time last year; that's about 62,000
additional unemployed veterans. Employment is a huge factor in
determining veterans' mental health. If you can't work, we all
know veterans want to work, their mental health suffers. And
so, your responsibility is supremely important at this moment
in our history.
Our veterans have earned and they deserve the best
healthcare and the best employment opportunities that we can
possibly provide, and I am sure that I speak for all the
Members of this Committee in saying we're going to continue to
fight for both. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Moran [Inaudible]. Before being recognized for
your opening statements, would you please stand and raise your
right hands?
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that this testimony you're
about to give before the United States Senate Committee on
Veterans Affairs will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Bartrum. I do.
Mr. Workman. I do.
Thank you. Mr. Bartrum, you are now recognized for 5
minutes. Welcome.
STATEMENT OF JOHN BARTRUM, NOMINEE TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR
HEALTH, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Bartrum. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal,
distinguished Members of the Committee, I am honored to be
nominated for the Under Secretary of Health at the Department
of Veterans Affairs.
I thank this Committee, the President, Secretary Collins,
for their confidence. And I'm grateful for the support of my
lovely wife, Elizabeth, who's behind me, and our two twin
daughters who couldn't be here today. I also want to
acknowledge my family, friends, fellow veterans, and military
brothers and sisters who are watching and providing support
from across the country.
As a 16-year-old living on my own after my father passed
away in sixth grade, I never imagined this moment. Growing up
fatherless presents significant challenges. My military service
changed everything. Upon high school graduation, I enlisted in
the Air Force, which trained me, allowed me to mature as a
leader, pay for college, and opened up the American Dream for
me. Statistically speaking, my life should have been very
different.
This decision to enlist led to over 40 years of military
service that I'm still serving at. I went from E-1 Airman Basic
to the rank of Major General, and I currently serve as the
Mobilization Assistant to the Air and Space Force Surgeon
General. I am the most senior Medical Service Corps hospital
executive in the Air Force. I am the most senior medical
officer position in the Air Force Reserve. My experience in the
military taught me that statistics may be predictive, but
American opportunity can override any predetermined path.
Despite my early childhood challenges, I earned an
undergraduate degree in business administration from McKendree
University, degrees in bio environmental engineering and
survival and rescue operations, and eventually an MBA from
Southern Illinois University, and a law degree from George
Mason University, and I might add, all at night school.
In addition, I was trained by the Air Force to be a
hospital administrator. My background demonstrates my
qualifications for the Under Secretary of Health position. This
includes extensive healthcare executive leadership experience
with multi-billion-dollar healthcare systems.
In my position in the Air Force Surgeon General's Office, I
assist in the leadership of a $6.1 billion healthcare system
involving 44,000 personnel integrated healthcare delivery
system, serving 2.6 million beneficiaries at 76 locations
worldwide.
I'm a combat veteran. I have been mobilized multiple times;
Desert Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and the COVID response.
I served as the associate director of the National Institutes
of Health. During COVID, when I was mobilized, I was one of the
key people who developed the concept of what became known as
Warp Speed. I'm not as creative as coming up with the name Warp
Speed, so I originally called it the Manhattan Project----
[Laughter.]
General Bartrum [continuing]. But others came up with a
better name. In that role, I was the deputy for the entire
government response for Emergency Support Function-8. So, the
operations manager for all the health operations for the
country, leading DoD teams, HHS teams, FEMA teams, VA teams,
and public health service teams, as well as working with the
State's Governors and FEMA response team.
As a former House Appropriations Committee professional
staff member, I oversaw the policy and funding for major health
agencies, including NIH, CMS, and CDC to name a few.
Furthermore, I previously worked in the Department of Veterans
Affairs and in the Office of Management and Budget on VA and
defense health policy and financing matters.
The Veterans Healthcare System exclusively serves millions
of veterans nationwide with critical healthcare they earned
from military service. It operates over 1,200 healthcare
facilities nationwide, including medical centers, community-
based outpatient clinics, and specialized care facilities to
serve approximately nine million eligible veterans annually.
If confirmed, I will work to enhance healthcare delivery
standards with greater consistency, continue VA's focus on
patient safety and quality improvement while balancing access
and improved outcomes. Continue to support medical research on
veterans issues, its medical education programs, and enhance
VA's mission to assist our Nation during emergencies and
disasters as they did in COVID.
Military service is more than a job, as you all know. It's
an act of selflessness and dedication to ensure all of us can
enjoy the freedom of democracy. The military service of my
father, my brother, my grandfather, my military brothers and
sisters who've served before me, who serve with me, who will
serve after me, have taught me that we owe veterans more than
gratitude. We owe them excellence.
I welcome your questions, and if confirmed, I look forward
to working with this Committee to fulfill our sacred obligation
to those who've served. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bartrum appears on page 63
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Moran. Thank you, Mr. Bartrum. I recognize Senator
Sheehy for the introduction of Mr. Workman.
INTRODUCTION BY HON. TIM SHEEHY,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA
Senator Sheehy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Moran,
Ranking Member Blumenthal, thank you for the opportunity and
the honor to introduce a great American like Jeremiah Workman.
I also want to thank President Trump and Secretary Chavez-
DeRemer for nominating a combat veteran and decorated hero for
such an important position for our veteran community.
Indeed, our Nation is stronger when we have battlefield
experience serving in senior levels of our republic. And most
importantly, Jeremiah, I thank you and your family for not only
your service up to now, but your willingness to serve yet
again.
As a fellow combat veteran, married to a combat veteran,
also a Marine, unfortunately, you know, you guys, I can't ever
get away from you guys, I not only understand the depth of your
sacrifice, I also understand the value of your perspective as
we seek to reorient our government toward common sense.
Jeremiah joined the Marine Corps while still in high school
and went on to serve in combat at some of the fiercest fighting
our Nation has seen in a generation. Fighting in battles across
Iraq, including in one of our bloodiest battlefields of
Fallujah.
But Jeremiah didn't just serve and survive in these
firefights, he led through them and fought like a lion. On one
fateful day as he led his Marines on patrol, they fought
through a vicious ambush, confronting a numerically superior
force of well-armed suicidal insurgents who were ready to trade
their lives for martyrdom. Jeremiah decided he could help them
do just that. He fought with the ferocity only a few who had
been under fire can understand. His bravery that day earned him
the Navy Cross in a place of eternal honor in the halls of
Marine Corps lore.
Since leaving active duty, instead of living off of the
accolades of his former life and his achievements, which he is
quite capable of and frankly entitled to do, he recommitted
himself to service and has worked tirelessly to advocate for
veteran work programs that improve transition success for our
heroes. He also helped remind America that veterans are a
superpower for our labor force. They just need the opportunity
to show what they can do.
Jeremiah's work is not focused on veteran handouts or
benefit programs but has focused on empowering our former
servicemen and women to achieve new heights after their time in
uniform. In an era when only 1 percent of Americans have served
in combat, much of our Nation is quick to victimize our
veterans and treat them like damaged goods, who when they come
home, they need a blanket and handouts. This couldn't be
further from the truth. And it's a corrosive narrative that our
veteran community must stop on their own.
We are veterans, not victims. Veterans, not victims.
Veterans join the service because they believe in the mission
and they love their country. That mission and purpose don't end
when they take the uniform off. In fact, as Jeremiah has shown
us, that is just the beginning.
We must resist the urge to coddle our veterans and instead
help them launch a new chapter in their lives, chapters of
achievement, excellence, and renewed service and mission.
Jeremiah has done that himself. He has helped other veterans do
that, and now will help the entire nation do that.
America's lucky to have men like Jeremiah on the
battlefield, and now we'll be lucky to have him as a leader in
our government. Thank you, Chairman.
Chairman Moran. Senator Sheehy, thank you for your
introduction, and Mr. Workman, you are recognized.
STATEMENT OF JEREMIAH WORKMAN, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT
SECRETARY FOR VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING, U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
Mr. Workman. Thank you, Senator Sheehy for the
introduction. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and
Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to
appear before you today. I am honored and humbled to be
considered for the role of Assistant Secretary of Labor for
Veterans' Employment and Training Service. This nomination is a
call to serve those who have served us all.
I am grateful to President Donald Trump for nominating me
to serve in this role. He has demonstrated an unrelenting
support for our military and veterans, placing a renewed
national focus on honoring their service and expanding their
opportunities after they leave the uniform behind. I would also
like to thank Secretary Lori Chavez-DeRemer and Deputy
Secretary Keith Sonderling for their leadership and support of
my nomination.
I especially would like to take a moment to thank someone
very important to me; my wife, Jessica. Jessica and I have been
together since high school. She's the mother of our two
incredible children, Devin and Delaney, and all three are here
in support today. Throughout my military career through my
deployment injury, reintegration, Jessica has been a constant
source of strength, grace, and resilience. They say the
toughest job in the military is that of a military spouse, and
Jessica has fulfilled that role with a quiet determination that
has shaped the man I am today. Jessica, thank you. You are my
rock.
Public service has long been a part of my family's story.
My grandfather served in World War II. My dad is a United
States Army Veteran. For me, the decision to serve came early.
I enlisted the Marine Corps when I was 17 years old. On the
morning of September 11, 2001, I was in a barbershop at Parris
Island. A few years later, in December 2004, I was deployed
with a team of Marines in Fallujah, Iraq as part of Operation
Phantom Fury.
Our mission was going house to house clearing insurgents in
one of the fiercest urban battles of the Iraq war. During one
operation, we engaged more than two dozen insurgents fortified
inside a safe house. The details of that day are well
documented, and I won't recount them all here, but I will say
this; the bravery and the sacrifice I witnessed from my fellow
Marines that day continue to inspire my life's work.
Since leaving active duty, I've committed myself to serving
veterans through my work with the Wounded Warrior Regiment, the
VA, and the private sector. I've always had the same focus,
making sure veterans didn't fall through the cracks. I've seen
how powerful the right support at the right time can be, and
I've seen what happens when we fail to deliver.
As a Marine combat veteran, I've experienced firsthand both
the immense pride of military service and the complex
challenges of transitioning back into civilian life. I have
also seen the untapped potential that every veteran carries
with them, after service. Our Nation owes these men and women
more than gratitude. We owe them an opportunity, dignity, and a
pathway to purpose, post-service.
If confirmed, I will lead the Veterans' Employment and
Training Service with that mission at its core. To empower
every transitioning service member, veteran, and military
spouse with the tools they need to succeed in the workforce and
in life. Regardless of the length of their service, they
deserve the chance to build a meaningful, fulfilling civilian
career.
If confirmed, every decision we make at VETS will start
with one question; what does this mean for the veteran? That
will be our guiding principle. I will lead with urgency,
compassion, and accountability. We will work to strengthen our
programs, improve interagency coordination, and embrace
innovation from digital training platforms to expanded employer
partnerships.
Our focus will be on the outcomes that matter, quality
jobs, long-term careers, and the dignity that comes with
meaningful work. We will ensure that veterans are not only
welcomed into the workforce, but they are prepared, empowered,
recruited, and valued. This is the greatest professional honor
of my life, and I am ready to continue my service to our great
country.
Thank you again for your time and consideration. I
respectfully ask for your support of my nomination, and I look
forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Workman appears on page 113
of the Appendix.]
Chairman Moran. Mr. Workman, Mr. Bartman, thank you both
for your presence here, and more importantly, thank you for
your service as outlined by you and by Senator Sheehy. Thanks
for protecting and serving our Nation.
Mr. Bartrum, in response, and I want to tell you that how
you respond to this question is really important to me. This is
not a throw-away question in any way. In response to your pre-
hearing questions, you referenced ``having an opportunity to
revisit the balance of direct care and community care.''
In my view, that balance belongs with the veteran. The
veteran gets to decide under the eligibility criteria
established by Congress in the MISSION Act. And it's the VA's
responsibility to work continuously to make certain that
eligible veterans can freely choose between high performing VA
direct care, and high functioning VA community care. Do you
agree? Why or why not? Would you explain your view on this
topic?
Mr. Bartrum. I fully agree with you. It is the veteran's
choice on how we work to balance that care. Right now, the
bureaucratic process that has been put in place before this
administration takes an enormous amount of time, and it takes a
lot of hoops for a veteran to get community care.
One of the things that you did is you passed the best
medical interest, and we implemented that. In the policy
statement that Secretary Collins put, when he implemented it,
part of his words were we don't need a congressional law to
tell us to do what's common sense. And what's common sense is
that if the doctor and the veteran decide that they need to
have a referral to community care, that the referral to
community care should occur, and it doesn't take another
doctor, or another technician, or somebody else to review it.
It's just like it is in your private sector. When you and
your doctor decide you need a referral and you need to go
somewhere, then you get the referral and you go. So, that has
been implemented. Those are the things that I'm talking about.
I'm balancing the community care with the direct care.
If you think about our healthcare system in the VA, when I
worked for the VA years ago, we were essentially a single-
engine motor. We had one cylinder, and it was direct care. We
now have community care, referral care, whatever you'd like to
refer to it, and we have direct care. And we need to balance
those care activities for our veterans based on our veterans.
In the VA, there's things that we do that veterans want to
keep coming back and using us over and over, especially if they
live within the area where they can get to us. If they don't
live within that area, they need to be able to use community
care without jumping through a thousand hoops. But if they want
to use our prosthetic care, which I would argue is second to
none, or some of our primary health mental care, or some of our
primary care, and they live in that area, they should be able
to do that and have the choice to do that.
But if they need to use while they're in that area based on
a referral, because we don't have the specialty care, they
should be able to get the specialty care that they need, where
they need it. So, that's what I say when we need to balance it.
It's form and function, sir. It's structured. It's basic
leadership 101.
And having been a leader in both the civil service side as
an SES and on the military side as a general officer, that's
what I intend to do. Is to lead the organization to look at the
processes and how to better affect the veteran's patient
outcome.
Chairman Moran. When you say balance or rebalance, it's
based upon--I'm paraphrasing or telling you what I heard from
your answer. It's based upon the best interest of the veteran,
not any other criteria?
Mr. Bartrum. Yes, sir. It's the best interest of the
veteran and what the law allows us to do.
Chairman Moran. Yes, there is the law. Thank you. Mr.
Bartrum, over the past 5 years, we've seen a major swing in VA
workforce from a record hiring in '22 and '23 to a planned
decrease of 10,000 employees in '24, and now, further
reductions in the overall workforce this year. There has not
been a VA staffing strategy in recent history that takes a
long-term view despite the necessity of high performing
workforce for the delivery of timely high-quality care.
If confirmed, what data points and trends will you look at
to determine the VHA's workforce needs? What are your goals
when it comes to the VHA workforce, and how will you work with
this Committee to develop a coherent and sustainable VHA
staffing strategy moving forward and longer-term?
Mr. Bartrum. And that's a great question, sir, and I really
appreciate that. On the strategy of the workforce, as you know,
VA has about 470,000 employees and about 350,000 of those are
at VA healthcare facilities facing the healthcare of the
veterans and providing care for the veterans. And most of those
350,000 were exempt from the hiring freeze that Ranking Member
Blumenthal had identified early on in the discussion.
But one of the things that I've committed to working with,
and I'd love to work with your staff on it, once confirmed, or
if I'm confirmed, is with also with the HR, our HR Assistant
Secretary Mark Engelbaum, on setting up a workforce structure
with manning documents so that we understand what positions and
what manning documents you should have, and setting up standard
staffing models so that we understand how many staff you need
for certain types of activities.
We don't have good staffing models in the VA. And the way
that--when I've looked at some of the numbers, and I'm only a
senior advisor, so I don't dig into all the different things
every day at VHA. But when you look at some of the different
numbers on their staffing model, is it not a consistent
staffing model? Do you have inconsistent number of staffing in
certain areas and not in others? And we need to normalize that
across the platform.
So, I look forward to working with you and the staff and
with my other colleagues at VA to set up staffing models to
ensure that we're looking at that, to make sure that we're
getting the throughput on patient output and we're getting--
we're getting the service that we need.
But what I would want to say is that with all the hiring
that went on during the Biden administration between 2021 and
2024, there were over 52,000 full-time equivalents. But what
happened during that time? The wait times didn't improve. The
wait time for primary care rose from 15.7 days to 24.3. The
wait time for mental health rose from 14.7 to 20.4. The wait
times for--24 for specialty care went from 24 to 38 days. So,
the measures that I'm going to look at are what is our access
and what are the things that we're doing to improve access? And
I see my time's up, so.
Chairman Moran. And I, too, see that my time is up. Mr.
Workman, I'll come back to you at the next opportunity. And I
recognize Senator Blumenthal.
Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. As senior advisor
to Secretary Collins, Mr. Bartrum, were you involved in the
decision to fire 83,000 VA employees?
Mr. Bartrum. Was I involved in the decision to fire 82,000
employees? No.
Senator Blumenthal. Were you involved in the decision to
change that number to 30,000?
Mr. Bartrum. No.
Senator Blumenthal. Have you been involved in any workforce
decisions previously relating to healthcare?
Mr. Bartrum. I'm not involved in any of the HR decisions
that come out of the HR side.
Senator Blumenthal. Are you alarmed by the numbers that I
gave you as to the 1,720 registered nurses, nearly 600
physicians frontline doctors, nurses, psychologists, police
officers leaving as a result of the resignations, firings,
hiring freezes, just so far.
Mr. Bartrum. So, what I would say is that I'm not aware of
any firings there have been----
Senator Blumenthal. Well, are you alarmed by those numbers?
Mr. Bartrum. There are force restructuring tools out there,
but there's also numbers of people that change in the system.
And in our system every year, we have about 40,000 people
turnover in our system every year. So, in a system where you
have 470,000 people, I'm not alarmed by a shift of 500, or 700,
or 7,500, because in systems as big, you have natural
changeover. What I can say is that what I have seen in the VA
is that our employees tend to stay longer, and we tend to
recruit well. So----
Senator Blumenthal. Are you aware that the loss of those
thousands of staff have an effect on VA healthcare? Those
numbers are not business as usual. I gave you the numbers for
the similar period under the Biden administration. Even at the
beginning of this fiscal year, there were 40,000 vacancies.
Wouldn't you say that VA healthcare is in jeopardy as a result
of the numbers of employees already lost even before the 30,000
that are planned by the end of the year?
Mr. Bartrum. So, what I'd also say is that what you may not
have seen is that we've made changes to our system that have
enhanced our ability to provide access and our ability to
provide care.
Senator Blumenthal. So, you're not alarmed?
Mr. Bartrum. So, the expanding electronic scheduling
system, which in the past one person would schedule for the
community care process would schedule, and these are generally
nurses would schedule five to seven patients a day by expanding
out the--what's called the ESP, the electronic scheduling
process. We are now doing 20 to 24 on average per scheduler.
So, it expands access and it expands----
Senator Blumenthal. I'm going to interrupt you because my
time is limited, Mr. Bartrum. You're talking to me about maybe
doing scheduling more efficiently. You're not talking about
doctors, nurses, police, janitors. You and I talked, they're
all part of a team. You've got to have a team. In your role as
senior advisor, were you involved in the cancellation of
contracts?
Mr. Bartrum. I was involved in review of contracts that the
career officials would recommend for rescoping, descoping, or
in some cases, cancellation.
Senator Blumenthal. What's the answer to that question? Yes
or no?
Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
Senator Blumenthal. You were involved?
Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
Senator Blumenthal. Okay. Can you give me a number of
contracts that have been canceled?
Mr. Bartrum. No. I can't give you a number of contracts
that have been canceled, but what I can say is I can get back
to you for the record. I know that we have----
Senator Blumenthal. Well, we've heard that again, and
again, and again, and again, you'll get back to us. We've heard
it from nominees, we've heard it from the Secretary.
Information has been provided, it's incomplete, it's wrong.
We're asking for basic transparency and disclosure here that we
have a right to see. Veterans have a right to see. The public
has a right to see.
Let me ask you, do you have information about the wait
times for community care when veterans choose that option? Do
you have data about the wait times for community care?
Mr. Bartrum. Yes, I do have some information [flips through
pages in his notebook]. I am not locating my page on that, sir,
if I find it, but I can get back to you. But what I can say is
that in our wait times, we have seen improvements in certain
areas of wait times.
Senator Blumenthal. Well, we've asked for this data
repeatedly. I'm not surprised you can't find it in your
notebook there. Or maybe I should say, if you found it, it
should have been provided to us long before now because we've
requested it repeatedly. So, you can get back to me if you'd
like. I welcome your willingness to do so.
But again, the reason why we have, in effect, asked for the
regular order on these nominees is this kind of data simply
hasn't been provided. My time has expired Mr. Chairman. I hope
that we will have time for additional questions.
Chairman Moran. Senator Tuberville.
HON. TOMMY TUBERVILLE,
U.S. SENATOR FROM ALABAMA
Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for
both of you being here. Look forward to supporting you both.
Mr. Bartrum, one of the biggest complaints I hear about the VA
healthcare services is communication. And in my State of
Alabama, we're very rural and it's a huge problem. If
confirmed, how will you work with the Secretary in utilizing
new technology that we have, you know, for community service?
Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, sir. As you know, we talked a
little bit about this when I met with you. You know, rural
veterans who live in the rural area are somewhere between 60
and 66 percent of our veterans. And so, reaching out and
reaching to our veterans and partnering with, not only the VSOs
and our service organizations that are out there, but using our
technology that we have with our communication strategy, our
websites, and reaching out to folks with our provider network,
with our community care partners is something that I'm going to
look into and work with you, and partner on, and look at the
strategies.
I'm not steeped into what strategies VHA is using since I'm
not in the role, but once I'm in the role, I'd love to partner
with you and bring back what we're doing specifically, and
figure out how we can best reach out to our rural networks.
Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Workman, in your
testimony, you highlighted the need for DOL VETS to focus on
outcomes and performances. If confirmed, how will you ensure
veterans are not just a number, but instead placed in long term
quality jobs?
Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think
when it comes to our veterans and when they're transitioning
from that active status into veteran status, it is important
for us to capture them as they're leaving the door in what we
call the Transition Assistance Program.
I believe a lot of folks are falling through the cracks,
and for whatever reason, not attending TAP or just not soaking
it in. I think that's where it starts is that last 6 months to
a year before they leave active duty or reserve status. Once
out into small, you know, wherever they go in America, that's
generally where we start to see issues. They lose that support
network.
That's where our American job centers come into play. We
need to make sure that the folks out there are properly trained
in doing what they need to do to take care of our transitioning
veterans and their family members.
Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Bartrum. In May, the VA
announced a policy change that would make it easier for
veterans to access community care when a VA doctor determines
it is in their best medical interest. What's your opinion on
this announcement?
Mr. Bartrum. I thought it was the right announcement, and
it should have been done years ago. I believe that when a
veteran and their doctor says they need to go to a referral on
the outside, and they both agree with that, that that is enough
to send them to the outside to get referral.
Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Workman, as you know,
the Federal Government is very siloed, and agencies often don't
communicate with each other. It seems like we can't get
information from the DoD to the VA coordinated because all the
systems are different. It's been a disaster since I've been
here. We've spent billions of dollars. We can't seem to do it.
But if confirmed, how will you improve coordination across
agencies to veterans and put them first?
Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. If
confirmed, you're 100 percent correct, we need to tighten up
communications across the different departments and agencies. I
feel like sometimes VETS, Department of Labor VETS sometimes
doesn't always have a seat at the table. And if confirmed, I
can assure you that we will have a seat at the table with the
DoD, and also, the VA, so that we can better serve our veterans
and their family members.
Senator Tuberville. Are you aware of the problems that
we've had from the DoD to the--you know, all the information
going from DoD to the veterans?
Mr. Workman. Yes, Senator. I spent 10 or 11 years working
at the VA and I've also worked for DoD in a civilian capacity.
And I do know that it is a challenge. And like I said, if
confirmed, we will have a seat at the table and we look forward
to working with our counterparts.
Senator Tuberville. Mr. Bartrum, you and I talked about
this, about coinciding information. You can't get something
done unless you get both sides, you know, working together.
What's your thoughts on that?
Mr. Bartrum. No, I think we need to re-energize the sharing
agreements of data and getting data across the system. I also
think we have to do a better job of coordinating data within
VHA, and VA, and VVA because that data needs to flow smoother.
And so, I think there's lots of opportunities to do data
sharing within the department and within--within
intergovernmental agencies.
Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Moran. Senator King.
HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chair. In many of our
hearings, we have very well qualified candidates with terrific
backgrounds. I don't think I've ever been in a hearing where
we've had two people with the backgrounds that both of you have
that's so impressive and important, the perspective that you'll
bring to these jobs. So, I want to start with that.
I also want to start with the fact that all of us here are
committed to the veteran community, and to doing the best that
we can. That doesn't mean we're going to agree because I'm very
concerned about the direction of the department.
Mr. Bartrum, let's talk about the contracts. There was a
memo that came in an email from the department on July 3rd.
``VA will avoid a total of about $13.1 billion in cost by
terminating or not reviewing 16,000 contracts.'' And then it
goes on to say, I think, one of the most preposterous
statements I've seen. ``Terminating or not reviewing these
contracts will not negatively affect veteran care benefits or
services.''
That's just hard for me to believe, and I've gone through--
by the way [holding up a sheet of paper], was it somebody's
idea of a joke? Did you guys laugh about printing this so small
that it's virtually impossible to read? Was that somebody's
conscious decision Mr. Bartrum? This is an insult. This is the
list.
Mr. Bartrum. Sir, I had nothing to do with how the list
came over. But we can look into that and get you----
Senator King. Paper is cheap, as my father used to say. And
print it in a way that we can read it. But I've done a little
examination. This is full of contracts for nursing services,
nursing home services. You mentioned prosthetics. There are
probably a dozen prosthetics contracts that are being canceled.
It's just hard for me to believe that all of these are
unnecessary contracts, $13 billion worth of contracts.
And what worries me is there seems to be a pattern
developing of ready, fire, aim in the Veterans Affairs. You
started with first the hiring freeze applied to everybody,
then, ``Oh, no, it doesn't apply to medical people.'' That was
a good decision, but it shouldn't have been. It was a decision
that should have been made in the first place. Then it was
83,000 people are going to be fired by the end of this year.
Now, it's 30,000, not fired, but we're going to downsize by
30,000.
And I just wonder if, upon review, I can't believe that all
16,000 of these contracts are--and then the email of course
lists three or four ones that we would all say, ``Okay, those
probably aren't necessary.'' But prosthetics contracts, nursing
contracts, nursing home contracts, I just--it really bothers
me.
Mr. Bartrum, you mentioned we don't have a good staffing
model, and that may well be true, but I think you should start
with a staffing model and then decide what the right size of
the staff is. Not start with 30,000 or a month ago it was
83,000 and work backward.
Do you see what I'm saying? Analyze the staff, do the
staffing model, determine what you need, and then make those
decisions instead of starting with what amounts to a quota and
sort of reverse engineering. Give me some thoughts about that.
Mr. Bartrum. So, Senator King, I don't disagree with the
way that the--using analytics to determine what you need for
staffing and building to the staffing, which is why my earlier
comment was I really want to work on what is our staffing and
what our staffing should be.
On your question about the contracts, a lot of those we
also found that we had multiple contracts in multiple areas for
similar things, and that we could also consolidate into more
regional and national contracts. And so, where you see some
contracts that may be terminated on the list, there may be
additional contracts that were expanded out or scope changed so
that you could renegotiate it into a regional contract and
because you had the same contractor in some cases providing
service in certain areas.
Senator King. So, it's hard for me to believe that in the
time we've had in the last few months, that this list of 16,000
contracts has had the kind of careful review that--well, I will
predict that a month or two from now, there's going to be
another memo saying, well, there's a bunch of contracts we
aren't going to cut or eliminate. And I would want to see more
planning before the decisions are made that could so
significantly affect veterans' care.
Mr. Workman, I love what you said. I think transition is
the key. I'm on the Armed Services Committee. I said 10 years
ago, the Defense department should spend as much money on
transition out as they do on recruiting in. And I've been
working with Armed Services and others on, for example, having
VSOs involved in the TAP Program; letting veterans pre-enroll
for VA healthcare before they leave active duty, providing the
veterans data to their State Veterans Administration when they
leave so they can be contacted. So, I look forward to working
with you. I hope you think those are worthwhile initiatives.
Mr. Workman. Absolutely, Senator.
Senator King. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
appreciate the time.
Chairman Moran. Senator Sheehy.
HON. TIM SHEEHY,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA
Senator Sheehy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll agree with
Senator King's comments that we all care about the veterans
here. We may not always agree, and in the last 5 years, our
veteran VA budget has increased by 70 percent. Over 70 percent
VA employee headcounts increased by 28 percent. Our veteran
population in the country has gone down by over 9 percent. And
yet, as you pointed out General Bartrum, veteran suicide has
gone up. Patient wait times have gone up, call wait times have
gone up. Our contract for the veteran healthcare electronic
health records is what--over a decade, over schedule now, and
billions over budget.
So, all these contracts that are being canceled, I can very
much believe that we're not seeing impact in medical care,
because it seems like the more contracts we issue, the more
money we spend, and the more people we're hiring, the quality
of the care and our ability to deliver it is actually
decreasing.
And our ability to interface with community care and allow
our veterans to interact with their community's healthcare
that's already there, is the best and fastest, and cheapest way
for us to make sure that if a veteran is in need, a mental
healthcare crisis in rural Montana, when they're hours from a
VA hospital, the quickest, best, and cheapest and most
effective way for them to get the care they need is not to wait
on a phone line for hours on end. Not to wait three-plus weeks
to get an appointment booked, but to be able to go that day,
that minute, to a local care center where they can get what
they need.
And what we've seen is intentional obstruction for years of
the ability for veterans to actually access community care. And
that obstructions come from within the VA. Not everybody, not
every single person, but there's no question there's been
organized organizational obstruction to accessing private
community care for veterans.
And in a state like Montana, where we have almost 10
percent of our state are veterans, in a frontier healthcare
market, not just rural healthcare, frontier healthcare, to
assume that we can build a clinic close enough to every veteran
and make sure they have the access in a time of urgent
emergency need is fantasy. It's fantasy. They have to be able
to access community care.
And there's been an intentional obstruction of that within
the agency. And the more money we spend and the more contracts,
and the more people we hire are not solving the problem. It's
not. So, are we going to solve the problem or are we going to
create jobs? And for me, I'm about mission. Having served in
combat like Jeremiah and yourself, I'm worried about what's
good for the veterans.
And I believe Senator King and everyone else says, too, we
may not agree, but the data does not lie. And the data shows
that despite hiring tens of thousands of extra employees and
spending billions and billions upon billions of more money on
contracts, and people, and buildings, and brick and mortar, it
hasn't improved the situation.
So, I applaud the efforts of Secretary Collins. Have they
been perfect? No. Changing a massive organization is never
going to be easy or fast. We're going to make mistakes, but
something has to change. The trajectory of how we're dealing
with our veteran care model has to change. And this
administration is changing that, and I support it.
So, I thank you for your efforts to doing so. It's hard to
change something like this without making some mistakes, and
you're going to make enemies. But you've taken a big risk in
doing it, and I appreciate it.
So, that's most of my time, but I will, in the vein of my
questions, ask a couple of things specifically to Mr. Workman
since you've been getting all the attention so far. I'll give
you a break. Transition assistance. You talked about it, you've
done it yourself. I've done it. It's a challenging thing to do.
What are you going to do specifically with the TAP program, or
I should say Transition Assistance Program, to make sure that
we are building a more sturdy bridge for our veterans as they
transition so they can have ready-made careers when they get
out?
Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think
it needs to start a little earlier in the transition process.
As you know, a lot of junior folks when they are making that
transition, the last thing sometimes between them and a DD214
is that check in the box that they went through TAP class. We
need to put emphasis on it and make sure the commanders are
holding their troops accountable and ensuring that they are
attending TAP to begin with.
But, if confirmed, and I get to DOL VETS, we need to take a
look at it from the top to the bottom. And there's absolutely
room to improve the process. Like I said, I think we need to
make sure that we have a seat at the table with the DoD and the
VA as we all administer TAP.
And I look forward, like I said, if confirmed, to taking a
look at it and seeing what we can do to ensure that we can get
veterans and their family members good-paying jobs when they
leave the military. Jobs that when they wake up in the morning,
they feel good about what they're doing, and they can take care
of their family. That's what we're going to do.
Chairman Moran. Senator Hassan.
HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE
Senator Hassan. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair and to both of
our nominees. First, thank you and your families for your
service, and congratulations on your nominations. And a special
thanks to the families because you both stepping up to do this
work will be a test for them as well, and we're very, very
grateful to you.
And as Senator King and Senator Sheehy just said, we are
all united here in serving veterans. And Mr. Workman, you and I
talked about my dad served in World War II, your grandfather,
and that was a really good discussion. And as I said, my
father, having survived the Battle of the Bulge, I never heard
him complain about a thing afterwards. Just a remarkable member
of the greatest generation.
But I also just want to address, Senator Sheehy and I would
agree that community care is important. New Hampshire is the
only state in the contiguous U.S. that doesn't have its own VA
hospital. So, community care has been very important. I would
also say that some of the statistics that Senator Sheehy was
talking about happened during the time when we passed and
instituted the PACT Act. So, there are a lot more people coming
into the VA for healthcare. It was a big surge. And we still
have work to do to implement the PACT Act effectively.
And I'm also concerned because our community care in New
Hampshire and across the country is also struggling. So, to
suggest that just by referring veterans to our community
civilian healthcare system is going to solve their access to
care problem I think ignores the challenges that our community
system, our civilian system, is going to have, especially in
light of the reconciliation bill, ``The Big Beautiful Bill'' is
what President Trump calls it, that's going to strain our rural
care even more.
So, I want us to all think about that in that context. I
want us all to think about Senator King's concern about the way
these contracts were canceled. It's just the way I think about
it is, you know, good carpenters measure twice and cut once.
And it seems to me that the VA went about this backward.
So, I'll get to my questions now, but I just wanted to kind
of level set us a little bit as I listened to the exchanges
we've been going on. I am asking every nominee these days a
straightforward question. And I'll start with you, Mr. Bartrum,
and then you, Mr. Workman. If directed by the President to take
an action that would break the law, would you follow the law or
follow the President's directive? Mr. Bartrum?
Mr. Bartrum. I don't anticipate ever being asked to break
the law, but I'll follow the law.
Senator Hassan. Thank you. And I should have said General
Bartrum, sorry.
Mr. Bartrum. That's okay.
Mr. Workman. Likewise, I don't anticipate the President
asking me to break the law, but I would always follow the law.
Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate your commitment to
following the law. I'd suggest that you review some of the
things the President and his administration have done, and
consider the first part of your answer.
Mr. Workman, I'd like to discuss an issue that I know we
both care about a lot; ensuring that our Nation fully supports
the surviving families of our fallen heroes. I've been working
with Senator Cassidy on a bipartisan bill that would help Gold
Star and surviving spouses get employment assistance through
DOL VETS, the office that you're nominated to lead.
I'd like to work with you on this issue because I think we
owe it to the families of the fallen to do everything that we
can to support them and help them move forward. That's a debt
we owe to those who sacrifice so much for our Nation. Given
your military experience, sir, can you talk to me about some of
the sacrifices that military families make and the importance
of supporting them, especially surviving spouses?
Mr. Workman. Yes. Thank you for the question, Senator, and
I do appreciate you taking that meeting with me. That was
special to be able to look through that, your father's diary,
and I appreciate that.
But getting back to our Gold Star families, we owe these
folks more than what--we owe them everything. My wife,
Jessica's sitting right behind me, she could be the first one
to tell you that staying at home while we are overseas doing
our Nation's work, like I said in my opening statement, is one
of the toughest jobs in the military. We owe these folks
everything that we have to offer, and if confirmed, I look
forward to working with your office and providing technical
assistance with----
Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. That's what I was going to
ask, if you'd commit to working with us on this bill, and I
look forward to working with you on that too.
General Bartrum, in May, the President issued an Executive
order requiring the Secretary of the VA to create an action
plan to support a full-service medical center in New Hampshire
so that we're no longer, that only state in the contiguous U.S.
without a full-service VA hospital.
I have long supported bringing a full-service hospital to
New Hampshire, and I want to make sure that the VA is engaging
with Granite Staters at every step of the way. If confirmed to
be the VA's Under Secretary for Health, how will you work with
New Hampshire veterans in our congressional delegation as the
VA creates its plan for a full-service hospital in New
Hampshire?
Mr. Bartrum. Senator, I can certainly assure you that I
will work with you and the state on that. We have already
started a site survey process where we start the initial part
of the site survey, and then down the road, that will have a
process where we engage with the state as we look at what we
see as the need, capabilities, and capacities that are there,
and to work with the state on what right looks like as we move
forward.
Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that. We have
understandably, like I think probably in every state, a very
active group of veterans in New Hampshire. As you both have
commented, veterans never stop the mission to serve, and that's
true in New Hampshire as it is everywhere else. And they really
want to engage directly with the VA about how to make this a
successful planning scenario. So, thank you, sir.
Chairman Moran. Senator Hassan, thank you. Senator
Blackburn.
HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE
Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
congratulations to each of you on your nominations. It was good
to see the Secretary yesterday afternoon and to hear from him.
Sounds like he is busy, and working, and making some positive
changes. And we appreciate that.
Mr. Bartrum, I want to come to you. I'm a little confused
over your statement regarding community care and want to get
you to clarify your comments on that. Now, the Chairman and I
are both working on the community care issue, and when I talked
yesterday afternoon with the Secretary, I know he is trying to
simplify community care.
But you made a comment that you need to balance direct care
and community care, and I want you to drill down what would
that balance be, and why would you not say let's prioritize
what the vet wants, and if they want community care, let's make
that a more simple process for them to access that care?
Mr. Bartrum. So, ma'am, I am saying that. If veterans want
community care, we need to allow them to have community care.
And when I say balance it, right now the bureaucracy is stacked
against them----
Senator Blackburn. Totally.
Mr. Bartrum. The bureaucracy is stacked against them. If I
get confirmed, then I can work to help take out some of the
bureaucracy.
As a senior advisor, I'm very limited in what I can do. As
the Under Secretary, if I'm confirmed, then I can work to take
out the bureaucracy that's there. But the best medical interest
allows us to take out part of the bureaucracy. Changing what
the contracts are, as we do the next generation of contracts,
allows us to take out part of the bureaucracy. Building in the
infrastructure, you know, we also need to allow that if a
veteran chooses that they want to use the VA healthcare system,
the direct care system, that they have that choice to use that
direct healthcare system. So, it's working with them on where
do they want to get their care and making sure that it's not
bureaucracy that's getting in the way. It's where they want to
get their care that's best for them.
Senator Blackburn. And they can access it in the most
efficient----
Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
Senator Blackburn [continuing]. And effective way. Okay. I
appreciate that because talking about balancing, I think made
it sound like you were going to do a little bit over here and a
little bit over there, but not prioritize the vet in making
those decisions.
And talking to most veterans in Tennessee, they much prefer
having community care because we've got 63 rural hospitals in
our state. We've got 260 rural clinics, and they would much
prefer going to something in their community because it enables
them to get a neighbor or a friend to drive them and drop them
off, and somebody doesn't have to take off work for the day and
get them to Nashville or Memphis.
So, this is an issue. We've got a lot of veterans in
Tennessee, and this is an issue that comes up regularly as we
meet with the VSOs and as we meet with veterans' groups. And
what they want is community care. They appreciate what the
Chairman has done. They are crazy about my bill, which would
get rid of that bureaucracy and give them the choice, put them
in the driver's seat.
And when you meet with these veterans groups and you hear
what they go through and how long they have to wait, it is
embarrassing. And I know you all inherited a problem at a very
broken VA, and the fact that you had people that were working
in VA healthcare that worked 5 days out of a 10-day work period
in person and VA benefits where they worked 2 days out of 10 in
person, you can't get your job done if you are not showing up
to work.
So, we appreciate that, but I think it is important that
you speak with clarity on these issues and that we know you're
not going to go soft on community care because that is what the
veterans are wanting to see expanded.
Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, ma'am. And just to be clear, we're
working to put veterans first and veterans' choice first. And
so, community care is a primary focus and we've got to get all
of the bureaucracy out of the way so that the veteran has the
choice.
And as a veteran of 40 years myself, and the son of a
veteran, I can tell you that I will continue to work for
veterans, enlist the veterans, because the why that I chose to
take this nomination was those are my brothers and sisters.
Those are the people that I've gone to battle with. They're my
battle buddies, and those are the people that I'm here to
serve. And so, serve them, I will.
Senator Blackburn. Great. And Mr. Workman, I'll send
something to you for a QFR. The electronic health records in
that transition that is there from active duty to veterans,
I'll send it. I'm out of time, so I'll send that to you for
written.
Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Blackburn. Thank you.
Chairman Moran. Senator Blackburn, thank you. We have two
Senators that are present. At the end of those questioning,
we're going to try to bring this hearing to a conclusion and
make the vote at the very end. We have two votes one of which
has already started. So, now it's Senator Hirono's time, and
you may ask your questions.
HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to
both of you. I ask the following two initial questions of all
nominees before any of the committees on which I sit. And so, I
will ask you these questions. We can start with Mr. Bartrum and
then Mr. Workman. Since you became a legal adult, have you ever
made unwanted requests for sexual favors, or committed any
verbal, or physical harassment, or assault of a sexual nature?
Mr. Bartrum. No.
Mr. Workman. No.
Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered
into a settlement related to this kind of conduct?
Mr. Bartrum. No.
Mr. Workman. No.
Senator Hirono. Okay. For Mr. Bartrum, in April 2025, VA
awarded a 5-year contract for certain medical supplies to
Brightstar Innovations, the company you formed and formerly
led. Do you have any sort of ongoing financial stake in this
company, in Brightstar?
Mr. Bartrum. No.
Senator Hirono. So, the ethics agreement that you signed in
accordance with your nomination to this role indicated you
would not participate personally or substantially in matters
involving Brightstar for one year, beginning with your
resignation from the company in January 2025. Particularly
given your role in other contract related matters in the
department, did you participate personally or substantially in
awarding Brightstar the April 2025 contract?
Mr. Bartrum. No, I have no knowledge that they even have a
contract.
Senator Hirono. Okay. So, you can see--well, by the way,
was this contract with Brightstar the first contract that
Brightstar received from the VA?
Mr. Bartrum. When I was at Brightstar, when I ran
Brightstar, we had no contracts with the VA.
Senator Hirono. I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
Mr. Bartrum. No, we had no contracts when I was at
Brightstar with the VA. So, as far as I know, it must be their
first.
Senator Hirono. So, I think that you can understand why I
would ask these questions because the fact that this is the
very first contract that Brightstar got and you happen to just
leave Brightstar and join the VA, you can see where certain
questions like those that I asked would arise.
Again, for you, it's important for any person serving the
role of the Under Secretary of Health to understand that
reducing veteran suicide, and you've already been asked by
another Member of this Committee the importance of paying
attention to veteran suicides, which unfortunately is a
continuing challenge. So, it is a priority for many of us in
this Committee.
And we recently had a hearing on the Veterans Crisis Line,
and given this administration's decision to fire VCL staff,
seemingly without regard to the impact it would have, can you
reassure me that under your purview, there will be no cuts to
staffing or funding, and no reorganizational decisions that
limit access to VCL for veterans and others served by it?
Mr. Bartrum. So, I can assure you that while suicide has no
single cause, it has lots of supporters to prevent it like
yourself, and me, and the Secretary, and the President. And so,
we will do what we can to ensure that we continue to support
the Veterans Crisis Line and to ensure the veterans have access
to the Veterans Crisis Line when they need it and however they
need it.
Senator Hirono. So, was that a yes?
Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
Senator Hirono. Okay. Because please know that for a lot of
young people, the awareness that the hotline or there was some
funding cuts to veterans access to suicide prevention programs
is a matter of major concern for them.
Now, when Secretary Collins was before our Committee, I
asked him with regard to pausing certain programs, including
veterans participation in clinical trials. And if you're a
veteran participating in a clinical trial, and suddenly those
programs or trials are put on pause and with no idea when
you're going to be able to access whatever drugs are being
provided or access to medical care under the clinical trials, I
asked him, well, what clinical trials, how many veterans are
involved in participating in these clinical trials? He said he
would get back to me. So far, not. So, I'm asking you for this
information. Do you have it?
Mr. Bartrum. I don't have the number of veterans who are
involved in clinical trials, but I will get back to you with
that for the record. But what I can say is that no clinical
trials have been paused, and we have exempted from the hiring
freeze, all folks who work in the----
Senator Hirono. Did you say that no clinical trials are on
pause?
Mr. Bartrum. That's my understanding.
Senator Hirono. No. So, that would've been good if the
Secretary had said, ``Oh, by the way, we're done with the
pause, and all of the veterans who are in these trials are
getting the services, the medical care and the medications that
they need.'' That's your testimony that they are all resumed in
their clinical trials.
Mr. Bartrum. Yes. My understanding is that we have not
paused. We do not have any paused clinical trials due to hiring
freezes or exemptions. We've exempted those.
Senator Hirono. Then perhaps you could give me the number
of veterans who are involved and participating in these
clinical trials that are no longer all possible. Well, in all
of the clinical trials. I would like to have that information.
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Moran. I'll let Mr. Bartrum respond.
Senator Hirono. Can you get us that?
Mr. Bartrum. We'll get back to you for the record, yes.
Chairman Moran. Let me use this as an opportunity to
indicate we're always looking for the VA to be much more
prompt. And we've had significant challenges in getting
information that Committee members, but also this Committee,
has specifically asked from the Department of Veterans Affairs.
And I don't know, it may have apply to the Department of Labor,
too, from time to time. But it would be greatly appreciated if
you and those that you work with would be more forthcoming more
quickly.
Mr. Bartrum. We will, sir.
Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Tillis.
HON. THOM TILLIS,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA
Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be quick. Number
one, Mr. Bartrum, you're going to most likely get confirmed,
and you're going to most likely come to several oversight
hearings that are going to ask you how your work on this secret
mission to completely privatize the VA is going.
It's a narrative that's been here. I've been here 10 years,
and I think anybody in their right mind needs to know it makes
no sense to be 100 percent brick and mortar, nor does it make
any sense, for the reasons that you've said, to be pure
community care. The VA can point to several best practices, and
several instances, and several communities that they need to be
there. And I, for one, believe that that you've answered the
questions to my satisfaction. I don't think anybody who knows
anything about the organization would come to any other
conclusion.
Mr. Workman, I've got a chiropractor named Bender, an
optometrist named Iler, and a dentist named White. So, Workman,
going for Assistant Secretary for Labor just makes sense to me.
Mr. Workman. Thank you, sir [laughter].
Senator Tillis. Here's another thing that we've talked
about for your--and congratulations to your family. Are those
your kids behind you there?
Mr. Workman. Yes, sir.
Senator Tillis. Congratulations to you, and Mr. Bartrum,
too. For 10 years I've been here, we've talked about we need to
fix the TAP program. And for 10 years I've said that what we
need to do is have the right analytics coming out of the DoD,
and we will be successful when we have a TAP classroom of one.
The problem that you have now, if you go into the
Transition Assistance Program, you got some of the more senior
people that may have, you know, financial sort of literacy at a
different level than you're going to have some kid just coming
out, they may have their earbuds in, are watching something on
their phone while they're punching the ticket to go through
TAP. We all know that that happens. It's a disservice to those
kids to put them in the same classroom for someone else
punching the ticket.
Do you know whether or not there's any sort of incentive or
back review on the extent to which that TAP program has been
proven beneficial to the students? In other words, some way to
measure in an after action whether or not that TAP program, and
the instructors for that matter, are held up to a standard on
efficacy and ultimate result for the TAP program?
Mr. Workman. Well, Senator, I thank you for the question. I
have not been in VETS down at the Department of Labor. I can
assure you, if confirmed, and I get into VETS, we are going to
take a look at that.
Senator Tillis. My guess is the answer is no. And I came
from large organizations where metrics matter, and my guess is
the way that we're finally going to get a TAP program that
makes sense and does right by our warriors, our veterans, is to
just focus on that. Have that as a goal.
I know it will take time, it will take years, it will not
be completed in your tenure, but I'm really tired of people
talking about it. And I think if we're intellectually honest
with ourselves, it's been a bipartisan failure to substantially
change the TAP program since you went through it.
Mr. Workman. Absolutely.
Senator Tillis. And we owe our service members more, and we
need to be instructed by information coming out of the
electronic health record and everything else in the DoD to do
right by them--what I want to do, the only thing I saw in your
resume that I'd like to spend some more time on, and we're not
going to do it here, but I'd like your commitment to talk a
little bit about this large organization, if you're confirmed,
that you're going to inherit--and you've got a great resume.
As a matter of fact, about the only lapse in judgment that
I've seen in your resume is you're trying to run for Lieutenant
Governor in Ohio a while back. But other than that, you look
pretty solid. You're clearly a patriot.
But I'd like to, if I can just get a commitment, maybe we
can get on a phone call or if you can come over to my office, I
didn't get an opportunity to talk with you in advance to just
get your sense of the people that are going to be around you
that will have that large organization expertise that you're
going to need. And then maybe you can convince me that that
maybe you have some relevant experience.
I don't expect the President of the United States or you to
be a subject matter expert in the organization that you're
inheriting, but you need to have the apparatus in place to
understand the level of complexity and the challenges you're
going to have as a manager, having nothing to do with you being
a warfighter or a veteran.
Mr. Workman. Absolutely.
Senator Tillis. Can I get that commitment to just follow up
with----
Mr. Workman. Absolutely, Senator.
Senator Tillis [continuing]. What we'll share with you is
our assessment that I've read on areas. So, we'll share bluntly
the assessment that we've read confidentially between us, and
we can have a good discussion on it.
Mr. Workman. Absolutely.
Senator Tillis. I look forward to having that discussion. I
thank you all for being here today. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Moran. Senator Tillis, thank you. Both of you
gentlemen, a lot of what I know about veterans is what I hear
from them. A lot of what we respond to is what we call casework
in which a veteran has brought to us a problem they're having
with the VA. And I want to just highlight the importance of
your ability to help us solve that veteran's problem.
But I want to take that a step further. Often, I'm
successful in getting the VA to respond to a specific case that
we bring to their attention, but I'm quite certain that in many
instances, it's not a one-place circumstance. And so, it's nice
to solve a problem for a veteran. It would be better to solve
the problem for that veteran and every other veteran that's
experiencing something similar from the VA.
And in addition to that, often I'm told that something has
changed at the Department of Veterans Affairs, but when I'm
back in Kansas, no one at the VA knows what I've been told. So,
there's a lot of disconnect between something that is decided
here as a policy and it being, not only not implemented, but
not even known that the policy has changed.
I assume that you would confirm to me that in the things
I've just described, you will be an ally in making certain that
an individual, but all veterans are cared for when we raise
these topics, and you'll take greater steps than have occurred
in the past to make sure that the people who work at the VA
know what the new rules and policies are.
Mr. Bartrum. Sir, as we talked before about this topic, I
can assure you I will be on the front line on that fight with
you.
Chairman Moran. Thank you. And Mr. Bartrum, I'm going to
put you to the test already. We're working with the Ranking
Member, Senator Blumenthal, the Department of Veterans Affairs,
and the Congressional Budget Office to move my community care
bill, the ACCESS Act. And we're working on a CBO score that
requires some information from the VA, that my understanding is
the VA has--we need the VA to provide additional clarification
information to CBO on that bill. And we're particularly talking
about Section 103.
I don't know what the delay has been, but I'm asking you to
commit to make sure the VA delivers that information, ASAP, but
no later than tomorrow. Would you take this task back and see
if we can get that information so we can move forward with this
ACCESS Act?
Mr. Bartrum. Yes, sir.
Chairman Moran. Thank you. Anything that either one of you
would like to add to what you said or response, any of your
responses that deserve any clarification, or----
All right. Well, we thank you both for being here. Thank
you for your service in particular. Any Member of this
Committee who would like to send questions for the record to
one of the nominees or both of the nominees should do so as
soon as possible, but no later than the close of business
tomorrow. And then we would we would expect and appreciate a
timely response to our Committee members questions so that your
nominations can be fully considered.
Chairman Moran. With that, the hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 5:21 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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A P P E N D I X
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Submissions for the Record
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Nomination Material for
JOHN BARTRUM
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Nomination Material for
JEREMIAH WORKMAN
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