    [Senate Hearing 119-128]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                            S. Hrg. 119-128

                    HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING NOMINATIONS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION
                                   __________

                                 JULY 23, 2025
                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs

                  [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                                    ______

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    61-270 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2025

                     SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         Jerry Moran, Kansas, Chairman
    John Boozman, Arkansas               Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut,
    Bill Cassidy, Louisiana                Ranking Member
    Thom Tillis, North Carolina          Patty Murray, Washington
    Dan Sullivan, Alaska                 Bernard Sanders, Vermont
    Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee          Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii
    Kevin Cramer, North Dakota           Margaret Wood Hassan, New
    Tommy Tuberville, Alabama              Hampshire
    Jim Banks, Indiana                   Angus S. King, Jr., Maine
    Tim Sheehy, Montana                  Tammy Duckworth, Illinois
                                         Ruben Gallego, Arizona
                                         Elissa Slotkin, Michigan

                         David Shearman, Staff Director
                    Tony McClain, Democratic Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                 July 23, 2025

                                    SENATORS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Jerry Moran, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Kansas.............     1
    Hon. Richard Blumenthal, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from
      Connecticut....................................................     2
    Hon. Tommy Tuberville, U.S. Senator from Alabama.................    12
    Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine.................    13
    Hon. Tim Sheehy, U.S. Senator from Montana.......................    15
    Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.......    17
    Hon. Marsha Blackburn, U.S. Senator from Tennessee...............    19
    Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii...................    20
    Hon. Thom Tillis, U.S. Senator from North Carolina...............    22

                                   INTRODUCER

    Hon. Tim Sheehy, U.S. Senator from Montana.......................     5

                                    NOMINEES

    John Bartrum, Nominee to be Under Secretary for Health, U.S.
      Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     3

    Jeremiah Workman, Nominee to be Assistant Secretary for Veterans'
      Employment and Training, U.S. Department of Labor..............     6

                                    APPENDIX

                           Submissions for the Record

    The New York Times article ``Facing Painful Cuts, the V.A.
      Reported Dubious Savings to DOGE''.............................    31

    The Guardian article `` `Profound alarm' : US veterans agency
      roiled by fight over anti-discrimination provisions''..........    43

    Government Executive article ``Internal Veterans Affairs memo
      shows plan to scrutinize disability work from home
      accommodations''...............................................    53

    Federal News Network article ``VA loses 7,500 employees in
      veteran-facing roles amid shrinking workforce''................    55

                              Nomination Material

    John Bartrum, Nominee

      Prepared statement.............................................    63

      Response to Pre-Hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:

        Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................    65
        Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................    71

      Response to Additional Pre-Hearing Questions submitted by:

        Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................    81

      Response to Questions for the Record submitted by:

        Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................    82
        Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................    85
        Hon. Bill Cassidy............................................    88
        Hon. Ruben Gallego...........................................    90
        Hon. Mazie K. Hirono.........................................    92
        Hon. Angus S. King, Jr.......................................    95
        Hon. Elissa Slotkin..........................................    96

      Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees........................    97

    Jeremiah Workman, Nominee

      Prepared statement.............................................   113

      Response to Pre-Hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:

        Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................   116
        Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................   134

      Response to Questions for the Record submitted by:

        Hon. Bill Cassidy............................................   147
        Hon. Mazie K. Hirono.........................................   149

      Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees........................   152

                          HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING
                                  NOMINATIONS

                                  ----------

                            WEDNESDAY, JULY 23, 2025

                                           U.S. Senate,
                                Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:02 p.m., in
    Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Jerry Moran,
    Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

        Present: Senators Moran, Cassidy, Tillis, Blackburn,
    Tuberville, Sheehy, Blumenthal, Hirono, Hassan, and King.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,
                   CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS

        Chairman Moran. Good afternoon, everyone. The hearing will
    come to order. Thank you-all for being present with us to
    consider the nominees for the VA's Under Secretary for Health
    and the Department of Labor's Assistant Secretary for Veterans'
    Employment and Training (VETS).
        Making sure that the veterans can access timely, high
    quality healthcare as well as meaningful and gainful employment
    when they are separated from the military service are two of
    the highest priorities this Committee has, and certainly
    something that's important to our grateful nation.
        In many ways, VA's Under Secretary for Health and DOL's
    Assistant Secretary for Veterans' Employment and Training bear
    the bulk of the responsibilities for meeting these missions.
    I'm grateful to have two dedicated public servants, John
    Bartrum and Jeremiah Workman, before us today as the nominees
    for these two important positions.
        While progress has been made to improve access to
    healthcare and high-paying jobs, far too many veterans in
    Kansas and across the country continue to struggle to take full
    advantage of their earned benefits from the VA and the
    Department of Labor.
        Mr. Bartrum is a major general in the Air Force Reserve,
    and Mr. Workman a decorated marine veteran. They know these
    struggles well, and they're both eager to make it easier for
    their fellow veterans to thrive in their civilian lives. I look
    forward to hearing their plans and priorities, and I appreciate
    both nominees and their family members for being with us today
    and their willingness to take on these critical roles, if
    confirmed.
        With that, I yield to the Ranking Member, Senator
    Blumenthal.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
             RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT

        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you both
    for your service to our country and for your willingness now to
    serve our veterans. We're going to talk today about your
    qualifications and your vision for your responsibilities and
    the roles that you've been nominated for.
        But first of all, I think we ought to talk about the
    factual background to your nominations. Let me ask Mr. Chairman
    that four articles be entered into the record; ``Facing Painful
    Cuts, the V.A. Reported Dubious Savings'' from The New York
    Times; `` `Profound Alarm' : US veterans agency roiled by fight
    over anti-discrimination provisions'' from The Guardian;
    ``Internal Veterans Affairs memo shows plans to scrutinize
    disability work from home accommodations'' from Government
    Executive, and finally, ``VA loses 7,500 employees in veteran-
    facing roles as part of workforce cuts'' from the Federal News
    Network.
        Chairman Moran. Without objection.

        [The articles referred to appear on pages 31-59 of the
    Appendix.]

        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. The Federal News Network
    article published yesterday highlights the loss of 1,720
    registered nurses, 600 doctors, 1,150 medical support
    assistants, close to 200 police officers, 80 psychologists, and
    1,100 claims examiners.
        According to The New York Times investigation, while the VA
    is claiming these cruel cuts are saving taxpayer dollars,
    contract terminations and employees firing actually resulted in
    an estimate of 25 percent increase in VA spending compared to
    last year, 25 percent higher spending because of these cuts.
    Something's wrong with this picture.
        Over the same period of time last year, the Biden
    administration had a net increase of 3,200 registered nurses,
    232 doctors, 1,570 medical support assistants, 191 police
    officers, and 1,484 claims examiners. I have insisted on
    regular order for the VA nominees so the Senate can have
    appropriate and necessary debate on the floor about people
    nominated to lead the VA.
        And Mr. Bartrum, you've been there from the beginning, from
    the beginning of this administration. You have been a senior
    advisor to Secretary Collins since day one, and presumably
    involved in these decisions in some way or another. The VA
    announced recently, it's abandoning the Secretary's disastrous
    plan to fire 8,300 employees----
        Senator King. 83,000.
        Senator Blumenthal. 83,000. Thank you. Thank you Senator
    King. 83,000, emphasizing how many there are. That is a
    reversal of position due to forceful opposition from Members of
    Congress, but even more importantly, veterans and VSOs. And
    alarmingly, the VA is poised to lose instead 30,000 employees
    by the end of this year, along with 40,000 pre-existing
    vacancies with no intention of backfilling those positions. At
    least one VA facility recently had 50 mental health providers
    leave due to toxic work conditions created by the
    administration.
        Secretary Collins says this will have no effect on
    veterans' healthcare. With all due respect, I think that
    contention is simply false. Despite the value and efforts of
    frontline VA employees across the country who are spread
    dangerously thin, the loss of dedicated workers in that
    magnitude cannot help but impact VA healthcare.
        All this has happened, Mr. Bartrum, again, while you have
    been working as a senior advisor to Secretary Collins, and
    that's why I think we deserve to know what else you have
    planned if you are confirmed at VHA.
        Mr. Workman, if confirmed, you'll be leading a department,
    the Department of Labor, Veterans' Employment and Training
    Division, and as you know from your own personal experience,
    that transition from active duty to civilian life can be
    extraordinarily challenging. You've experienced it, and right
    now, again, I'm afraid due to the Trump administration's
    actions, veterans are unemployed at rates not seen since the
    height of the COVID pandemic.
        The veteran unemployment rate is up almost a full
    percentage point since this time last year; that's about 62,000
    additional unemployed veterans. Employment is a huge factor in
    determining veterans' mental health. If you can't work, we all
    know veterans want to work, their mental health suffers. And
    so, your responsibility is supremely important at this moment
    in our history.
        Our veterans have earned and they deserve the best
    healthcare and the best employment opportunities that we can
    possibly provide, and I am sure that I speak for all the
    Members of this Committee in saying we're going to continue to
    fight for both. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Moran [Inaudible]. Before being recognized for
    your opening statements, would you please stand and raise your
    right hands?
        Do you solemnly swear or affirm that this testimony you're
    about to give before the United States Senate Committee on
    Veterans Affairs will be the truth, the whole truth, and
    nothing but the truth, so help you God?
        Mr. Bartrum. I do.
        Mr. Workman. I do.
        Thank you. Mr. Bartrum, you are now recognized for 5
    minutes. Welcome.

     STATEMENT OF JOHN BARTRUM, NOMINEE TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR
              HEALTH, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

        Mr. Bartrum. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal,
    distinguished Members of the Committee, I am honored to be
    nominated for the Under Secretary of Health at the Department
    of Veterans Affairs.
        I thank this Committee, the President, Secretary Collins,
    for their confidence. And I'm grateful for the support of my
    lovely wife, Elizabeth, who's behind me, and our two twin
    daughters who couldn't be here today. I also want to
    acknowledge my family, friends, fellow veterans, and military
    brothers and sisters who are watching and providing support
    from across the country.
        As a 16-year-old living on my own after my father passed
    away in sixth grade, I never imagined this moment. Growing up
    fatherless presents significant challenges. My military service
    changed everything. Upon high school graduation, I enlisted in
    the Air Force, which trained me, allowed me to mature as a
    leader, pay for college, and opened up the American Dream for
    me. Statistically speaking, my life should have been very
    different.
        This decision to enlist led to over 40 years of military
    service that I'm still serving at. I went from E-1 Airman Basic
    to the rank of Major General, and I currently serve as the
    Mobilization Assistant to the Air and Space Force Surgeon
    General. I am the most senior Medical Service Corps hospital
    executive in the Air Force. I am the most senior medical
    officer position in the Air Force Reserve. My experience in the
    military taught me that statistics may be predictive, but
    American opportunity can override any predetermined path.
        Despite my early childhood challenges, I earned an
    undergraduate degree in business administration from McKendree
    University, degrees in bio environmental engineering and
    survival and rescue operations, and eventually an MBA from
    Southern Illinois University, and a law degree from George
    Mason University, and I might add, all at night school.
        In addition, I was trained by the Air Force to be a
    hospital administrator. My background demonstrates my
    qualifications for the Under Secretary of Health position. This
    includes extensive healthcare executive leadership experience
    with multi-billion-dollar healthcare systems.
        In my position in the Air Force Surgeon General's Office, I
    assist in the leadership of a $6.1 billion healthcare system
    involving 44,000 personnel integrated healthcare delivery
    system, serving 2.6 million beneficiaries at 76 locations
    worldwide.
        I'm a combat veteran. I have been mobilized multiple times;
    Desert Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and the COVID response.
    I served as the associate director of the National Institutes
    of Health. During COVID, when I was mobilized, I was one of the
    key people who developed the concept of what became known as
    Warp Speed. I'm not as creative as coming up with the name Warp
    Speed, so I originally called it the Manhattan Project----
        [Laughter.]
        General Bartrum [continuing]. But others came up with a
    better name. In that role, I was the deputy for the entire
    government response for Emergency Support Function-8. So, the
    operations manager for all the health operations for the
    country, leading DoD teams, HHS teams, FEMA teams, VA teams,
    and public health service teams, as well as working with the
    State's Governors and FEMA response team.
        As a former House Appropriations Committee professional
    staff member, I oversaw the policy and funding for major health
    agencies, including NIH, CMS, and CDC to name a few.
    Furthermore, I previously worked in the Department of Veterans
    Affairs and in the Office of Management and Budget on VA and
    defense health policy and financing matters.
        The Veterans Healthcare System exclusively serves millions
    of veterans nationwide with critical healthcare they earned
    from military service. It operates over 1,200 healthcare
    facilities nationwide, including medical centers, community-
    based outpatient clinics, and specialized care facilities to
    serve approximately nine million eligible veterans annually.
        If confirmed, I will work to enhance healthcare delivery
    standards with greater consistency, continue VA's focus on
    patient safety and quality improvement while balancing access
    and improved outcomes. Continue to support medical research on
    veterans issues, its medical education programs, and enhance
    VA's mission to assist our Nation during emergencies and
    disasters as they did in COVID.
        Military service is more than a job, as you all know. It's
    an act of selflessness and dedication to ensure all of us can
    enjoy the freedom of democracy. The military service of my
    father, my brother, my grandfather, my military brothers and
    sisters who've served before me, who serve with me, who will
    serve after me, have taught me that we owe veterans more than
    gratitude. We owe them excellence.
        I welcome your questions, and if confirmed, I look forward
    to working with this Committee to fulfill our sacred obligation
    to those who've served. Thank you.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Bartrum appears on page 63
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Thank you, Mr. Bartrum. I recognize Senator
    Sheehy for the introduction of Mr. Workman.

                   INTRODUCTION BY HON. TIM SHEEHY,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA

        Senator Sheehy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Moran,
    Ranking Member Blumenthal, thank you for the opportunity and
    the honor to introduce a great American like Jeremiah Workman.
    I also want to thank President Trump and Secretary Chavez-
    DeRemer for nominating a combat veteran and decorated hero for
    such an important position for our veteran community.
        Indeed, our Nation is stronger when we have battlefield
    experience serving in senior levels of our republic. And most
    importantly, Jeremiah, I thank you and your family for not only
    your service up to now, but your willingness to serve yet
    again.
        As a fellow combat veteran, married to a combat veteran,
    also a Marine, unfortunately, you know, you guys, I can't ever
    get away from you guys, I not only understand the depth of your
    sacrifice, I also understand the value of your perspective as
    we seek to reorient our government toward common sense.
        Jeremiah joined the Marine Corps while still in high school
    and went on to serve in combat at some of the fiercest fighting
    our Nation has seen in a generation. Fighting in battles across
    Iraq, including in one of our bloodiest battlefields of
    Fallujah.
        But Jeremiah didn't just serve and survive in these
    firefights, he led through them and fought like a lion. On one
    fateful day as he led his Marines on patrol, they fought
    through a vicious ambush, confronting a numerically superior
    force of well-armed suicidal insurgents who were ready to trade
    their lives for martyrdom. Jeremiah decided he could help them
    do just that. He fought with the ferocity only a few who had
    been under fire can understand. His bravery that day earned him
    the Navy Cross in a place of eternal honor in the halls of
    Marine Corps lore.
        Since leaving active duty, instead of living off of the
    accolades of his former life and his achievements, which he is
    quite capable of and frankly entitled to do, he recommitted
    himself to service and has worked tirelessly to advocate for
    veteran work programs that improve transition success for our
    heroes. He also helped remind America that veterans are a
    superpower for our labor force. They just need the opportunity
    to show what they can do.
        Jeremiah's work is not focused on veteran handouts or
    benefit programs but has focused on empowering our former
    servicemen and women to achieve new heights after their time in
    uniform. In an era when only 1 percent of Americans have served
    in combat, much of our Nation is quick to victimize our
    veterans and treat them like damaged goods, who when they come
    home, they need a blanket and handouts. This couldn't be
    further from the truth. And it's a corrosive narrative that our
    veteran community must stop on their own.
        We are veterans, not victims. Veterans, not victims.
    Veterans join the service because they believe in the mission
    and they love their country. That mission and purpose don't end
    when they take the uniform off. In fact, as Jeremiah has shown
    us, that is just the beginning.
        We must resist the urge to coddle our veterans and instead
    help them launch a new chapter in their lives, chapters of
    achievement, excellence, and renewed service and mission.
    Jeremiah has done that himself. He has helped other veterans do
    that, and now will help the entire nation do that.
        America's lucky to have men like Jeremiah on the
    battlefield, and now we'll be lucky to have him as a leader in
    our government. Thank you, Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Sheehy, thank you for your
    introduction, and Mr. Workman, you are recognized.

        STATEMENT OF JEREMIAH WORKMAN, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT
         SECRETARY FOR VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING, U.S.
                          DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

        Mr. Workman. Thank you, Senator Sheehy for the
    introduction. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and
    Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to
    appear before you today. I am honored and humbled to be
    considered for the role of Assistant Secretary of Labor for
    Veterans' Employment and Training Service. This nomination is a
    call to serve those who have served us all.
        I am grateful to President Donald Trump for nominating me
    to serve in this role. He has demonstrated an unrelenting
    support for our military and veterans, placing a renewed
    national focus on honoring their service and expanding their
    opportunities after they leave the uniform behind. I would also
    like to thank Secretary Lori Chavez-DeRemer and Deputy
    Secretary Keith Sonderling for their leadership and support of
    my nomination.
        I especially would like to take a moment to thank someone
    very important to me; my wife, Jessica. Jessica and I have been
    together since high school. She's the mother of our two
    incredible children, Devin and Delaney, and all three are here
    in support today. Throughout my military career through my
    deployment injury, reintegration, Jessica has been a constant
    source of strength, grace, and resilience. They say the
    toughest job in the military is that of a military spouse, and
    Jessica has fulfilled that role with a quiet determination that
    has shaped the man I am today. Jessica, thank you. You are my
    rock.
        Public service has long been a part of my family's story.
    My grandfather served in World War II. My dad is a United
    States Army Veteran. For me, the decision to serve came early.
    I enlisted the Marine Corps when I was 17 years old. On the
    morning of September 11, 2001, I was in a barbershop at Parris
    Island. A few years later, in December 2004, I was deployed
    with a team of Marines in Fallujah, Iraq as part of Operation
    Phantom Fury.
        Our mission was going house to house clearing insurgents in
    one of the fiercest urban battles of the Iraq war. During one
    operation, we engaged more than two dozen insurgents fortified
    inside a safe house. The details of that day are well
    documented, and I won't recount them all here, but I will say
    this; the bravery and the sacrifice I witnessed from my fellow
    Marines that day continue to inspire my life's work.
        Since leaving active duty, I've committed myself to serving
    veterans through my work with the Wounded Warrior Regiment, the
    VA, and the private sector. I've always had the same focus,
    making sure veterans didn't fall through the cracks. I've seen
    how powerful the right support at the right time can be, and
    I've seen what happens when we fail to deliver.
        As a Marine combat veteran, I've experienced firsthand both
    the immense pride of military service and the complex
    challenges of transitioning back into civilian life. I have
    also seen the untapped potential that every veteran carries
    with them, after service. Our Nation owes these men and women
    more than gratitude. We owe them an opportunity, dignity, and a
    pathway to purpose, post-service.
        If confirmed, I will lead the Veterans' Employment and
    Training Service with that mission at its core. To empower
    every transitioning service member, veteran, and military
    spouse with the tools they need to succeed in the workforce and
    in life. Regardless of the length of their service, they
    deserve the chance to build a meaningful, fulfilling civilian
    career.
        If confirmed, every decision we make at VETS will start
    with one question; what does this mean for the veteran? That
    will be our guiding principle. I will lead with urgency,
    compassion, and accountability. We will work to strengthen our
    programs, improve interagency coordination, and embrace
    innovation from digital training platforms to expanded employer
    partnerships.
        Our focus will be on the outcomes that matter, quality
    jobs, long-term careers, and the dignity that comes with
    meaningful work. We will ensure that veterans are not only
    welcomed into the workforce, but they are prepared, empowered,
    recruited, and valued. This is the greatest professional honor
    of my life, and I am ready to continue my service to our great
    country.
        Thank you again for your time and consideration. I
    respectfully ask for your support of my nomination, and I look
    forward to your questions.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Workman appears on page 113
    of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Mr. Workman, Mr. Bartman, thank you both
    for your presence here, and more importantly, thank you for
    your service as outlined by you and by Senator Sheehy. Thanks
    for protecting and serving our Nation.
        Mr. Bartrum, in response, and I want to tell you that how
    you respond to this question is really important to me. This is
    not a throw-away question in any way. In response to your pre-
    hearing questions, you referenced ``having an opportunity to
    revisit the balance of direct care and community care.''
        In my view, that balance belongs with the veteran. The
    veteran gets to decide under the eligibility criteria
    established by Congress in the MISSION Act. And it's the VA's
    responsibility to work continuously to make certain that
    eligible veterans can freely choose between high performing VA
    direct care, and high functioning VA community care. Do you
    agree? Why or why not? Would you explain your view on this
    topic?
        Mr. Bartrum. I fully agree with you. It is the veteran's
    choice on how we work to balance that care. Right now, the
    bureaucratic process that has been put in place before this
    administration takes an enormous amount of time, and it takes a
    lot of hoops for a veteran to get community care.
        One of the things that you did is you passed the best
    medical interest, and we implemented that. In the policy
    statement that Secretary Collins put, when he implemented it,
    part of his words were we don't need a congressional law to
    tell us to do what's common sense. And what's common sense is
    that if the doctor and the veteran decide that they need to
    have a referral to community care, that the referral to
    community care should occur, and it doesn't take another
    doctor, or another technician, or somebody else to review it.
        It's just like it is in your private sector. When you and
    your doctor decide you need a referral and you need to go
    somewhere, then you get the referral and you go. So, that has
    been implemented. Those are the things that I'm talking about.
    I'm balancing the community care with the direct care.
        If you think about our healthcare system in the VA, when I
    worked for the VA years ago, we were essentially a single-
    engine motor. We had one cylinder, and it was direct care. We
    now have community care, referral care, whatever you'd like to
    refer to it, and we have direct care. And we need to balance
    those care activities for our veterans based on our veterans.
        In the VA, there's things that we do that veterans want to
    keep coming back and using us over and over, especially if they
    live within the area where they can get to us. If they don't
    live within that area, they need to be able to use community
    care without jumping through a thousand hoops. But if they want
    to use our prosthetic care, which I would argue is second to
    none, or some of our primary health mental care, or some of our
    primary care, and they live in that area, they should be able
    to do that and have the choice to do that.
        But if they need to use while they're in that area based on
    a referral, because we don't have the specialty care, they
    should be able to get the specialty care that they need, where
    they need it. So, that's what I say when we need to balance it.
    It's form and function, sir. It's structured. It's basic
    leadership 101.
        And having been a leader in both the civil service side as
    an SES and on the military side as a general officer, that's
    what I intend to do. Is to lead the organization to look at the
    processes and how to better affect the veteran's patient
    outcome.
        Chairman Moran. When you say balance or rebalance, it's
    based upon--I'm paraphrasing or telling you what I heard from
    your answer. It's based upon the best interest of the veteran,
    not any other criteria?
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes, sir. It's the best interest of the
    veteran and what the law allows us to do.
        Chairman Moran. Yes, there is the law. Thank you. Mr.
    Bartrum, over the past 5 years, we've seen a major swing in VA
    workforce from a record hiring in '22 and '23 to a planned
    decrease of 10,000 employees in '24, and now, further
    reductions in the overall workforce this year. There has not
    been a VA staffing strategy in recent history that takes a
    long-term view despite the necessity of high performing
    workforce for the delivery of timely high-quality care.
        If confirmed, what data points and trends will you look at
    to determine the VHA's workforce needs? What are your goals
    when it comes to the VHA workforce, and how will you work with
    this Committee to develop a coherent and sustainable VHA
    staffing strategy moving forward and longer-term?
        Mr. Bartrum. And that's a great question, sir, and I really
    appreciate that. On the strategy of the workforce, as you know,
    VA has about 470,000 employees and about 350,000 of those are
    at VA healthcare facilities facing the healthcare of the
    veterans and providing care for the veterans. And most of those
    350,000 were exempt from the hiring freeze that Ranking Member
    Blumenthal had identified early on in the discussion.
        But one of the things that I've committed to working with,
    and I'd love to work with your staff on it, once confirmed, or
    if I'm confirmed, is with also with the HR, our HR Assistant
    Secretary Mark Engelbaum, on setting up a workforce structure
    with manning documents so that we understand what positions and
    what manning documents you should have, and setting up standard
    staffing models so that we understand how many staff you need
    for certain types of activities.
        We don't have good staffing models in the VA. And the way
    that--when I've looked at some of the numbers, and I'm only a
    senior advisor, so I don't dig into all the different things
    every day at VHA. But when you look at some of the different
    numbers on their staffing model, is it not a consistent
    staffing model? Do you have inconsistent number of staffing in
    certain areas and not in others? And we need to normalize that
    across the platform.
        So, I look forward to working with you and the staff and
    with my other colleagues at VA to set up staffing models to
    ensure that we're looking at that, to make sure that we're
    getting the throughput on patient output and we're getting--
    we're getting the service that we need.
        But what I would want to say is that with all the hiring
    that went on during the Biden administration between 2021 and
    2024, there were over 52,000 full-time equivalents. But what
    happened during that time? The wait times didn't improve. The
    wait time for primary care rose from 15.7 days to 24.3. The
    wait time for mental health rose from 14.7 to 20.4. The wait
    times for--24 for specialty care went from 24 to 38 days. So,
    the measures that I'm going to look at are what is our access
    and what are the things that we're doing to improve access? And
    I see my time's up, so.
        Chairman Moran. And I, too, see that my time is up. Mr.
    Workman, I'll come back to you at the next opportunity. And I
    recognize Senator Blumenthal.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. As senior advisor
    to Secretary Collins, Mr. Bartrum, were you involved in the
    decision to fire 83,000 VA employees?
        Mr. Bartrum. Was I involved in the decision to fire 82,000
    employees? No.
        Senator Blumenthal. Were you involved in the decision to
    change that number to 30,000?
        Mr. Bartrum. No.
        Senator Blumenthal. Have you been involved in any workforce
    decisions previously relating to healthcare?
        Mr. Bartrum. I'm not involved in any of the HR decisions
    that come out of the HR side.
        Senator Blumenthal. Are you alarmed by the numbers that I
    gave you as to the 1,720 registered nurses, nearly 600
    physicians frontline doctors, nurses, psychologists, police
    officers leaving as a result of the resignations, firings,
    hiring freezes, just so far.
        Mr. Bartrum. So, what I would say is that I'm not aware of
    any firings there have been----
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, are you alarmed by those numbers?
        Mr. Bartrum. There are force restructuring tools out there,
    but there's also numbers of people that change in the system.
    And in our system every year, we have about 40,000 people
    turnover in our system every year. So, in a system where you
    have 470,000 people, I'm not alarmed by a shift of 500, or 700,
    or 7,500, because in systems as big, you have natural
    changeover. What I can say is that what I have seen in the VA
    is that our employees tend to stay longer, and we tend to
    recruit well. So----
        Senator Blumenthal. Are you aware that the loss of those
    thousands of staff have an effect on VA healthcare? Those
    numbers are not business as usual. I gave you the numbers for
    the similar period under the Biden administration. Even at the
    beginning of this fiscal year, there were 40,000 vacancies.
    Wouldn't you say that VA healthcare is in jeopardy as a result
    of the numbers of employees already lost even before the 30,000
    that are planned by the end of the year?
        Mr. Bartrum. So, what I'd also say is that what you may not
    have seen is that we've made changes to our system that have
    enhanced our ability to provide access and our ability to
    provide care.
        Senator Blumenthal. So, you're not alarmed?
        Mr. Bartrum. So, the expanding electronic scheduling
    system, which in the past one person would schedule for the
    community care process would schedule, and these are generally
    nurses would schedule five to seven patients a day by expanding
    out the--what's called the ESP, the electronic scheduling
    process. We are now doing 20 to 24 on average per scheduler.
    So, it expands access and it expands----
        Senator Blumenthal. I'm going to interrupt you because my
    time is limited, Mr. Bartrum. You're talking to me about maybe
    doing scheduling more efficiently. You're not talking about
    doctors, nurses, police, janitors. You and I talked, they're
    all part of a team. You've got to have a team. In your role as
    senior advisor, were you involved in the cancellation of
    contracts?
        Mr. Bartrum. I was involved in review of contracts that the
    career officials would recommend for rescoping, descoping, or
    in some cases, cancellation.
        Senator Blumenthal. What's the answer to that question? Yes
    or no?
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
        Senator Blumenthal. You were involved?
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
        Senator Blumenthal. Okay. Can you give me a number of
    contracts that have been canceled?
        Mr. Bartrum. No. I can't give you a number of contracts
    that have been canceled, but what I can say is I can get back
    to you for the record. I know that we have----
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, we've heard that again, and
    again, and again, and again, you'll get back to us. We've heard
    it from nominees, we've heard it from the Secretary.
    Information has been provided, it's incomplete, it's wrong.
    We're asking for basic transparency and disclosure here that we
    have a right to see. Veterans have a right to see. The public
    has a right to see.
        Let me ask you, do you have information about the wait
    times for community care when veterans choose that option? Do
    you have data about the wait times for community care?
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes, I do have some information [flips through
    pages in his notebook]. I am not locating my page on that, sir,
    if I find it, but I can get back to you. But what I can say is
    that in our wait times, we have seen improvements in certain
    areas of wait times.
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, we've asked for this data
    repeatedly. I'm not surprised you can't find it in your
    notebook there. Or maybe I should say, if you found it, it
    should have been provided to us long before now because we've
    requested it repeatedly. So, you can get back to me if you'd
    like. I welcome your willingness to do so.
        But again, the reason why we have, in effect, asked for the
    regular order on these nominees is this kind of data simply
    hasn't been provided. My time has expired Mr. Chairman. I hope
    that we will have time for additional questions.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Tuberville.

                         HON. TOMMY TUBERVILLE,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM ALABAMA

        Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for
    both of you being here. Look forward to supporting you both.
    Mr. Bartrum, one of the biggest complaints I hear about the VA
    healthcare services is communication. And in my State of
    Alabama, we're very rural and it's a huge problem. If
    confirmed, how will you work with the Secretary in utilizing
    new technology that we have, you know, for community service?
        Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, sir. As you know, we talked a
    little bit about this when I met with you. You know, rural
    veterans who live in the rural area are somewhere between 60
    and 66 percent of our veterans. And so, reaching out and
    reaching to our veterans and partnering with, not only the VSOs
    and our service organizations that are out there, but using our
    technology that we have with our communication strategy, our
    websites, and reaching out to folks with our provider network,
    with our community care partners is something that I'm going to
    look into and work with you, and partner on, and look at the
    strategies.
        I'm not steeped into what strategies VHA is using since I'm
    not in the role, but once I'm in the role, I'd love to partner
    with you and bring back what we're doing specifically, and
    figure out how we can best reach out to our rural networks.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Workman, in your
    testimony, you highlighted the need for DOL VETS to focus on
    outcomes and performances. If confirmed, how will you ensure
    veterans are not just a number, but instead placed in long term
    quality jobs?
        Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think
    when it comes to our veterans and when they're transitioning
    from that active status into veteran status, it is important
    for us to capture them as they're leaving the door in what we
    call the Transition Assistance Program.
        I believe a lot of folks are falling through the cracks,
    and for whatever reason, not attending TAP or just not soaking
    it in. I think that's where it starts is that last 6 months to
    a year before they leave active duty or reserve status. Once
    out into small, you know, wherever they go in America, that's
    generally where we start to see issues. They lose that support
    network.
        That's where our American job centers come into play. We
    need to make sure that the folks out there are properly trained
    in doing what they need to do to take care of our transitioning
    veterans and their family members.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Bartrum. In May, the VA
    announced a policy change that would make it easier for
    veterans to access community care when a VA doctor determines
    it is in their best medical interest. What's your opinion on
    this announcement?
        Mr. Bartrum. I thought it was the right announcement, and
    it should have been done years ago. I believe that when a
    veteran and their doctor says they need to go to a referral on
    the outside, and they both agree with that, that that is enough
    to send them to the outside to get referral.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Workman, as you know,
    the Federal Government is very siloed, and agencies often don't
    communicate with each other. It seems like we can't get
    information from the DoD to the VA coordinated because all the
    systems are different. It's been a disaster since I've been
    here. We've spent billions of dollars. We can't seem to do it.
    But if confirmed, how will you improve coordination across
    agencies to veterans and put them first?
        Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. If
    confirmed, you're 100 percent correct, we need to tighten up
    communications across the different departments and agencies. I
    feel like sometimes VETS, Department of Labor VETS sometimes
    doesn't always have a seat at the table. And if confirmed, I
    can assure you that we will have a seat at the table with the
    DoD, and also, the VA, so that we can better serve our veterans
    and their family members.
        Senator Tuberville. Are you aware of the problems that
    we've had from the DoD to the--you know, all the information
    going from DoD to the veterans?
        Mr. Workman. Yes, Senator. I spent 10 or 11 years working
    at the VA and I've also worked for DoD in a civilian capacity.
    And I do know that it is a challenge. And like I said, if
    confirmed, we will have a seat at the table and we look forward
    to working with our counterparts.
        Senator Tuberville. Mr. Bartrum, you and I talked about
    this, about coinciding information. You can't get something
    done unless you get both sides, you know, working together.
    What's your thoughts on that?
        Mr. Bartrum. No, I think we need to re-energize the sharing
    agreements of data and getting data across the system. I also
    think we have to do a better job of coordinating data within
    VHA, and VA, and VVA because that data needs to flow smoother.
    And so, I think there's lots of opportunities to do data
    sharing within the department and within--within
    intergovernmental agencies.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. Senator King.

                        HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE

        Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chair. In many of our
    hearings, we have very well qualified candidates with terrific
    backgrounds. I don't think I've ever been in a hearing where
    we've had two people with the backgrounds that both of you have
    that's so impressive and important, the perspective that you'll
    bring to these jobs. So, I want to start with that.
        I also want to start with the fact that all of us here are
    committed to the veteran community, and to doing the best that
    we can. That doesn't mean we're going to agree because I'm very
    concerned about the direction of the department.
        Mr. Bartrum, let's talk about the contracts. There was a
    memo that came in an email from the department on July 3rd.
    ``VA will avoid a total of about $13.1 billion in cost by
    terminating or not reviewing 16,000 contracts.'' And then it
    goes on to say, I think, one of the most preposterous
    statements I've seen. ``Terminating or not reviewing these
    contracts will not negatively affect veteran care benefits or
    services.''
        That's just hard for me to believe, and I've gone through--
    by the way [holding up a sheet of paper], was it somebody's
    idea of a joke? Did you guys laugh about printing this so small
    that it's virtually impossible to read? Was that somebody's
    conscious decision Mr. Bartrum? This is an insult. This is the
    list.
        Mr. Bartrum. Sir, I had nothing to do with how the list
    came over. But we can look into that and get you----
        Senator King. Paper is cheap, as my father used to say. And
    print it in a way that we can read it. But I've done a little
    examination. This is full of contracts for nursing services,
    nursing home services. You mentioned prosthetics. There are
    probably a dozen prosthetics contracts that are being canceled.
    It's just hard for me to believe that all of these are
    unnecessary contracts, $13 billion worth of contracts.
        And what worries me is there seems to be a pattern
    developing of ready, fire, aim in the Veterans Affairs. You
    started with first the hiring freeze applied to everybody,
    then, ``Oh, no, it doesn't apply to medical people.'' That was
    a good decision, but it shouldn't have been. It was a decision
    that should have been made in the first place. Then it was
    83,000 people are going to be fired by the end of this year.
    Now, it's 30,000, not fired, but we're going to downsize by
    30,000.
        And I just wonder if, upon review, I can't believe that all
    16,000 of these contracts are--and then the email of course
    lists three or four ones that we would all say, ``Okay, those
    probably aren't necessary.'' But prosthetics contracts, nursing
    contracts, nursing home contracts, I just--it really bothers
    me.
        Mr. Bartrum, you mentioned we don't have a good staffing
    model, and that may well be true, but I think you should start
    with a staffing model and then decide what the right size of
    the staff is. Not start with 30,000 or a month ago it was
    83,000 and work backward.
        Do you see what I'm saying? Analyze the staff, do the
    staffing model, determine what you need, and then make those
    decisions instead of starting with what amounts to a quota and
    sort of reverse engineering. Give me some thoughts about that.
        Mr. Bartrum. So, Senator King, I don't disagree with the
    way that the--using analytics to determine what you need for
    staffing and building to the staffing, which is why my earlier
    comment was I really want to work on what is our staffing and
    what our staffing should be.
        On your question about the contracts, a lot of those we
    also found that we had multiple contracts in multiple areas for
    similar things, and that we could also consolidate into more
    regional and national contracts. And so, where you see some
    contracts that may be terminated on the list, there may be
    additional contracts that were expanded out or scope changed so
    that you could renegotiate it into a regional contract and
    because you had the same contractor in some cases providing
    service in certain areas.
        Senator King. So, it's hard for me to believe that in the
    time we've had in the last few months, that this list of 16,000
    contracts has had the kind of careful review that--well, I will
    predict that a month or two from now, there's going to be
    another memo saying, well, there's a bunch of contracts we
    aren't going to cut or eliminate. And I would want to see more
    planning before the decisions are made that could so
    significantly affect veterans' care.
        Mr. Workman, I love what you said. I think transition is
    the key. I'm on the Armed Services Committee. I said 10 years
    ago, the Defense department should spend as much money on
    transition out as they do on recruiting in. And I've been
    working with Armed Services and others on, for example, having
    VSOs involved in the TAP Program; letting veterans pre-enroll
    for VA healthcare before they leave active duty, providing the
    veterans data to their State Veterans Administration when they
    leave so they can be contacted. So, I look forward to working
    with you. I hope you think those are worthwhile initiatives.
        Mr. Workman. Absolutely, Senator.
        Senator King. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
    appreciate the time.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Sheehy.

                            HON. TIM SHEEHY,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA

        Senator Sheehy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll agree with
    Senator King's comments that we all care about the veterans
    here. We may not always agree, and in the last 5 years, our
    veteran VA budget has increased by 70 percent. Over 70 percent
    VA employee headcounts increased by 28 percent. Our veteran
    population in the country has gone down by over 9 percent. And
    yet, as you pointed out General Bartrum, veteran suicide has
    gone up. Patient wait times have gone up, call wait times have
    gone up. Our contract for the veteran healthcare electronic
    health records is what--over a decade, over schedule now, and
    billions over budget.
        So, all these contracts that are being canceled, I can very
    much believe that we're not seeing impact in medical care,
    because it seems like the more contracts we issue, the more
    money we spend, and the more people we're hiring, the quality
    of the care and our ability to deliver it is actually
    decreasing.
        And our ability to interface with community care and allow
    our veterans to interact with their community's healthcare
    that's already there, is the best and fastest, and cheapest way
    for us to make sure that if a veteran is in need, a mental
    healthcare crisis in rural Montana, when they're hours from a
    VA hospital, the quickest, best, and cheapest and most
    effective way for them to get the care they need is not to wait
    on a phone line for hours on end. Not to wait three-plus weeks
    to get an appointment booked, but to be able to go that day,
    that minute, to a local care center where they can get what
    they need.
        And what we've seen is intentional obstruction for years of
    the ability for veterans to actually access community care. And
    that obstructions come from within the VA. Not everybody, not
    every single person, but there's no question there's been
    organized organizational obstruction to accessing private
    community care for veterans.
        And in a state like Montana, where we have almost 10
    percent of our state are veterans, in a frontier healthcare
    market, not just rural healthcare, frontier healthcare, to
    assume that we can build a clinic close enough to every veteran
    and make sure they have the access in a time of urgent
    emergency need is fantasy. It's fantasy. They have to be able
    to access community care.
        And there's been an intentional obstruction of that within
    the agency. And the more money we spend and the more contracts,
    and the more people we hire are not solving the problem. It's
    not. So, are we going to solve the problem or are we going to
    create jobs? And for me, I'm about mission. Having served in
    combat like Jeremiah and yourself, I'm worried about what's
    good for the veterans.
        And I believe Senator King and everyone else says, too, we
    may not agree, but the data does not lie. And the data shows
    that despite hiring tens of thousands of extra employees and
    spending billions and billions upon billions of more money on
    contracts, and people, and buildings, and brick and mortar, it
    hasn't improved the situation.
        So, I applaud the efforts of Secretary Collins. Have they
    been perfect? No. Changing a massive organization is never
    going to be easy or fast. We're going to make mistakes, but
    something has to change. The trajectory of how we're dealing
    with our veteran care model has to change. And this
    administration is changing that, and I support it.
        So, I thank you for your efforts to doing so. It's hard to
    change something like this without making some mistakes, and
    you're going to make enemies. But you've taken a big risk in
    doing it, and I appreciate it.
        So, that's most of my time, but I will, in the vein of my
    questions, ask a couple of things specifically to Mr. Workman
    since you've been getting all the attention so far. I'll give
    you a break. Transition assistance. You talked about it, you've
    done it yourself. I've done it. It's a challenging thing to do.
    What are you going to do specifically with the TAP program, or
    I should say Transition Assistance Program, to make sure that
    we are building a more sturdy bridge for our veterans as they
    transition so they can have ready-made careers when they get
    out?
        Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think
    it needs to start a little earlier in the transition process.
    As you know, a lot of junior folks when they are making that
    transition, the last thing sometimes between them and a DD214
    is that check in the box that they went through TAP class. We
    need to put emphasis on it and make sure the commanders are
    holding their troops accountable and ensuring that they are
    attending TAP to begin with.
        But, if confirmed, and I get to DOL VETS, we need to take a
    look at it from the top to the bottom. And there's absolutely
    room to improve the process. Like I said, I think we need to
    make sure that we have a seat at the table with the DoD and the
    VA as we all administer TAP.
        And I look forward, like I said, if confirmed, to taking a
    look at it and seeing what we can do to ensure that we can get
    veterans and their family members good-paying jobs when they
    leave the military. Jobs that when they wake up in the morning,
    they feel good about what they're doing, and they can take care
    of their family. That's what we're going to do.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Hassan.

                       HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE

        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair and to both of
    our nominees. First, thank you and your families for your
    service, and congratulations on your nominations. And a special
    thanks to the families because you both stepping up to do this
    work will be a test for them as well, and we're very, very
    grateful to you.
        And as Senator King and Senator Sheehy just said, we are
    all united here in serving veterans. And Mr. Workman, you and I
    talked about my dad served in World War II, your grandfather,
    and that was a really good discussion. And as I said, my
    father, having survived the Battle of the Bulge, I never heard
    him complain about a thing afterwards. Just a remarkable member
    of the greatest generation.
        But I also just want to address, Senator Sheehy and I would
    agree that community care is important. New Hampshire is the
    only state in the contiguous U.S. that doesn't have its own VA
    hospital. So, community care has been very important. I would
    also say that some of the statistics that Senator Sheehy was
    talking about happened during the time when we passed and
    instituted the PACT Act. So, there are a lot more people coming
    into the VA for healthcare. It was a big surge. And we still
    have work to do to implement the PACT Act effectively.
        And I'm also concerned because our community care in New
    Hampshire and across the country is also struggling. So, to
    suggest that just by referring veterans to our community
    civilian healthcare system is going to solve their access to
    care problem I think ignores the challenges that our community
    system, our civilian system, is going to have, especially in
    light of the reconciliation bill, ``The Big Beautiful Bill'' is
    what President Trump calls it, that's going to strain our rural
    care even more.
        So, I want us to all think about that in that context. I
    want us all to think about Senator King's concern about the way
    these contracts were canceled. It's just the way I think about
    it is, you know, good carpenters measure twice and cut once.
    And it seems to me that the VA went about this backward.
        So, I'll get to my questions now, but I just wanted to kind
    of level set us a little bit as I listened to the exchanges
    we've been going on. I am asking every nominee these days a
    straightforward question. And I'll start with you, Mr. Bartrum,
    and then you, Mr. Workman. If directed by the President to take
    an action that would break the law, would you follow the law or
    follow the President's directive? Mr. Bartrum?
        Mr. Bartrum. I don't anticipate ever being asked to break
    the law, but I'll follow the law.
        Senator Hassan. Thank you. And I should have said General
    Bartrum, sorry.
        Mr. Bartrum. That's okay.
        Mr. Workman. Likewise, I don't anticipate the President
    asking me to break the law, but I would always follow the law.
        Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate your commitment to
    following the law. I'd suggest that you review some of the
    things the President and his administration have done, and
    consider the first part of your answer.
        Mr. Workman, I'd like to discuss an issue that I know we
    both care about a lot; ensuring that our Nation fully supports
    the surviving families of our fallen heroes. I've been working
    with Senator Cassidy on a bipartisan bill that would help Gold
    Star and surviving spouses get employment assistance through
    DOL VETS, the office that you're nominated to lead.
        I'd like to work with you on this issue because I think we
    owe it to the families of the fallen to do everything that we
    can to support them and help them move forward. That's a debt
    we owe to those who sacrifice so much for our Nation. Given
    your military experience, sir, can you talk to me about some of
    the sacrifices that military families make and the importance
    of supporting them, especially surviving spouses?
        Mr. Workman. Yes. Thank you for the question, Senator, and
    I do appreciate you taking that meeting with me. That was
    special to be able to look through that, your father's diary,
    and I appreciate that.
        But getting back to our Gold Star families, we owe these
    folks more than what--we owe them everything. My wife,
    Jessica's sitting right behind me, she could be the first one
    to tell you that staying at home while we are overseas doing
    our Nation's work, like I said in my opening statement, is one
    of the toughest jobs in the military. We owe these folks
    everything that we have to offer, and if confirmed, I look
    forward to working with your office and providing technical
    assistance with----
        Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. That's what I was going to
    ask, if you'd commit to working with us on this bill, and I
    look forward to working with you on that too.
        General Bartrum, in May, the President issued an Executive
    order requiring the Secretary of the VA to create an action
    plan to support a full-service medical center in New Hampshire
    so that we're no longer, that only state in the contiguous U.S.
    without a full-service VA hospital.
        I have long supported bringing a full-service hospital to
    New Hampshire, and I want to make sure that the VA is engaging
    with Granite Staters at every step of the way. If confirmed to
    be the VA's Under Secretary for Health, how will you work with
    New Hampshire veterans in our congressional delegation as the
    VA creates its plan for a full-service hospital in New
    Hampshire?
        Mr. Bartrum. Senator, I can certainly assure you that I
    will work with you and the state on that. We have already
    started a site survey process where we start the initial part
    of the site survey, and then down the road, that will have a
    process where we engage with the state as we look at what we
    see as the need, capabilities, and capacities that are there,
    and to work with the state on what right looks like as we move
    forward.
        Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that. We have
    understandably, like I think probably in every state, a very
    active group of veterans in New Hampshire. As you both have
    commented, veterans never stop the mission to serve, and that's
    true in New Hampshire as it is everywhere else. And they really
    want to engage directly with the VA about how to make this a
    successful planning scenario. So, thank you, sir.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Hassan, thank you. Senator
    Blackburn.

                         HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,
                      U.S. SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE

        Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
    congratulations to each of you on your nominations. It was good
    to see the Secretary yesterday afternoon and to hear from him.
    Sounds like he is busy, and working, and making some positive
    changes. And we appreciate that.
        Mr. Bartrum, I want to come to you. I'm a little confused
    over your statement regarding community care and want to get
    you to clarify your comments on that. Now, the Chairman and I
    are both working on the community care issue, and when I talked
    yesterday afternoon with the Secretary, I know he is trying to
    simplify community care.
        But you made a comment that you need to balance direct care
    and community care, and I want you to drill down what would
    that balance be, and why would you not say let's prioritize
    what the vet wants, and if they want community care, let's make
    that a more simple process for them to access that care?
        Mr. Bartrum. So, ma'am, I am saying that. If veterans want
    community care, we need to allow them to have community care.
    And when I say balance it, right now the bureaucracy is stacked
    against them----
        Senator Blackburn. Totally.
        Mr. Bartrum. The bureaucracy is stacked against them. If I
    get confirmed, then I can work to help take out some of the
    bureaucracy.
        As a senior advisor, I'm very limited in what I can do. As
    the Under Secretary, if I'm confirmed, then I can work to take
    out the bureaucracy that's there. But the best medical interest
    allows us to take out part of the bureaucracy. Changing what
    the contracts are, as we do the next generation of contracts,
    allows us to take out part of the bureaucracy. Building in the
    infrastructure, you know, we also need to allow that if a
    veteran chooses that they want to use the VA healthcare system,
    the direct care system, that they have that choice to use that
    direct healthcare system. So, it's working with them on where
    do they want to get their care and making sure that it's not
    bureaucracy that's getting in the way. It's where they want to
    get their care that's best for them.
        Senator Blackburn. And they can access it in the most
    efficient----
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
        Senator Blackburn [continuing]. And effective way. Okay. I
    appreciate that because talking about balancing, I think made
    it sound like you were going to do a little bit over here and a
    little bit over there, but not prioritize the vet in making
    those decisions.
        And talking to most veterans in Tennessee, they much prefer
    having community care because we've got 63 rural hospitals in
    our state. We've got 260 rural clinics, and they would much
    prefer going to something in their community because it enables
    them to get a neighbor or a friend to drive them and drop them
    off, and somebody doesn't have to take off work for the day and
    get them to Nashville or Memphis.
        So, this is an issue. We've got a lot of veterans in
    Tennessee, and this is an issue that comes up regularly as we
    meet with the VSOs and as we meet with veterans' groups. And
    what they want is community care. They appreciate what the
    Chairman has done. They are crazy about my bill, which would
    get rid of that bureaucracy and give them the choice, put them
    in the driver's seat.
        And when you meet with these veterans groups and you hear
    what they go through and how long they have to wait, it is
    embarrassing. And I know you all inherited a problem at a very
    broken VA, and the fact that you had people that were working
    in VA healthcare that worked 5 days out of a 10-day work period
    in person and VA benefits where they worked 2 days out of 10 in
    person, you can't get your job done if you are not showing up
    to work.
        So, we appreciate that, but I think it is important that
    you speak with clarity on these issues and that we know you're
    not going to go soft on community care because that is what the
    veterans are wanting to see expanded.
        Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, ma'am. And just to be clear, we're
    working to put veterans first and veterans' choice first. And
    so, community care is a primary focus and we've got to get all
    of the bureaucracy out of the way so that the veteran has the
    choice.
        And as a veteran of 40 years myself, and the son of a
    veteran, I can tell you that I will continue to work for
    veterans, enlist the veterans, because the why that I chose to
    take this nomination was those are my brothers and sisters.
    Those are the people that I've gone to battle with. They're my
    battle buddies, and those are the people that I'm here to
    serve. And so, serve them, I will.
        Senator Blackburn. Great. And Mr. Workman, I'll send
    something to you for a QFR. The electronic health records in
    that transition that is there from active duty to veterans,
    I'll send it. I'm out of time, so I'll send that to you for
    written.
        Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Blackburn. Thank you.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Blackburn, thank you. We have two
    Senators that are present. At the end of those questioning,
    we're going to try to bring this hearing to a conclusion and
    make the vote at the very end. We have two votes one of which
    has already started. So, now it's Senator Hirono's time, and
    you may ask your questions.

                         HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII

        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to
    both of you. I ask the following two initial questions of all
    nominees before any of the committees on which I sit. And so, I
    will ask you these questions. We can start with Mr. Bartrum and
    then Mr. Workman. Since you became a legal adult, have you ever
    made unwanted requests for sexual favors, or committed any
    verbal, or physical harassment, or assault of a sexual nature?
        Mr. Bartrum. No.
        Mr. Workman. No.
        Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered
    into a settlement related to this kind of conduct?
        Mr. Bartrum. No.
        Mr. Workman. No.
        Senator Hirono. Okay. For Mr. Bartrum, in April 2025, VA
    awarded a 5-year contract for certain medical supplies to
    Brightstar Innovations, the company you formed and formerly
    led. Do you have any sort of ongoing financial stake in this
    company, in Brightstar?
        Mr. Bartrum. No.
        Senator Hirono. So, the ethics agreement that you signed in
    accordance with your nomination to this role indicated you
    would not participate personally or substantially in matters
    involving Brightstar for one year, beginning with your
    resignation from the company in January 2025. Particularly
    given your role in other contract related matters in the
    department, did you participate personally or substantially in
    awarding Brightstar the April 2025 contract?
        Mr. Bartrum. No, I have no knowledge that they even have a
    contract.
        Senator Hirono. Okay. So, you can see--well, by the way,
    was this contract with Brightstar the first contract that
    Brightstar received from the VA?
        Mr. Bartrum. When I was at Brightstar, when I ran
    Brightstar, we had no contracts with the VA.
        Senator Hirono. I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
        Mr. Bartrum. No, we had no contracts when I was at
    Brightstar with the VA. So, as far as I know, it must be their
    first.
        Senator Hirono. So, I think that you can understand why I
    would ask these questions because the fact that this is the
    very first contract that Brightstar got and you happen to just
    leave Brightstar and join the VA, you can see where certain
    questions like those that I asked would arise.
        Again, for you, it's important for any person serving the
    role of the Under Secretary of Health to understand that
    reducing veteran suicide, and you've already been asked by
    another Member of this Committee the importance of paying
    attention to veteran suicides, which unfortunately is a
    continuing challenge. So, it is a priority for many of us in
    this Committee.
        And we recently had a hearing on the Veterans Crisis Line,
    and given this administration's decision to fire VCL staff,
    seemingly without regard to the impact it would have, can you
    reassure me that under your purview, there will be no cuts to
    staffing or funding, and no reorganizational decisions that
    limit access to VCL for veterans and others served by it?
        Mr. Bartrum. So, I can assure you that while suicide has no
    single cause, it has lots of supporters to prevent it like
    yourself, and me, and the Secretary, and the President. And so,
    we will do what we can to ensure that we continue to support
    the Veterans Crisis Line and to ensure the veterans have access
    to the Veterans Crisis Line when they need it and however they
    need it.
        Senator Hirono. So, was that a yes?
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes.
        Senator Hirono. Okay. Because please know that for a lot of
    young people, the awareness that the hotline or there was some
    funding cuts to veterans access to suicide prevention programs
    is a matter of major concern for them.
        Now, when Secretary Collins was before our Committee, I
    asked him with regard to pausing certain programs, including
    veterans participation in clinical trials. And if you're a
    veteran participating in a clinical trial, and suddenly those
    programs or trials are put on pause and with no idea when
    you're going to be able to access whatever drugs are being
    provided or access to medical care under the clinical trials, I
    asked him, well, what clinical trials, how many veterans are
    involved in participating in these clinical trials? He said he
    would get back to me. So far, not. So, I'm asking you for this
    information. Do you have it?
        Mr. Bartrum. I don't have the number of veterans who are
    involved in clinical trials, but I will get back to you with
    that for the record. But what I can say is that no clinical
    trials have been paused, and we have exempted from the hiring
    freeze, all folks who work in the----
        Senator Hirono. Did you say that no clinical trials are on
    pause?
        Mr. Bartrum. That's my understanding.
        Senator Hirono. No. So, that would've been good if the
    Secretary had said, ``Oh, by the way, we're done with the
    pause, and all of the veterans who are in these trials are
    getting the services, the medical care and the medications that
    they need.'' That's your testimony that they are all resumed in
    their clinical trials.
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes. My understanding is that we have not
    paused. We do not have any paused clinical trials due to hiring
    freezes or exemptions. We've exempted those.
        Senator Hirono. Then perhaps you could give me the number
    of veterans who are involved and participating in these
    clinical trials that are no longer all possible. Well, in all
    of the clinical trials. I would like to have that information.
    Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. I'll let Mr. Bartrum respond.
        Senator Hirono. Can you get us that?
        Mr. Bartrum. We'll get back to you for the record, yes.
        Chairman Moran. Let me use this as an opportunity to
    indicate we're always looking for the VA to be much more
    prompt. And we've had significant challenges in getting
    information that Committee members, but also this Committee,
    has specifically asked from the Department of Veterans Affairs.
    And I don't know, it may have apply to the Department of Labor,
    too, from time to time. But it would be greatly appreciated if
    you and those that you work with would be more forthcoming more
    quickly.
        Mr. Bartrum. We will, sir.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Tillis.

                           HON. THOM TILLIS,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA

        Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be quick. Number
    one, Mr. Bartrum, you're going to most likely get confirmed,
    and you're going to most likely come to several oversight
    hearings that are going to ask you how your work on this secret
    mission to completely privatize the VA is going.
        It's a narrative that's been here. I've been here 10 years,
    and I think anybody in their right mind needs to know it makes
    no sense to be 100 percent brick and mortar, nor does it make
    any sense, for the reasons that you've said, to be pure
    community care. The VA can point to several best practices, and
    several instances, and several communities that they need to be
    there. And I, for one, believe that that you've answered the
    questions to my satisfaction. I don't think anybody who knows
    anything about the organization would come to any other
    conclusion.
        Mr. Workman, I've got a chiropractor named Bender, an
    optometrist named Iler, and a dentist named White. So, Workman,
    going for Assistant Secretary for Labor just makes sense to me.
        Mr. Workman. Thank you, sir [laughter].
        Senator Tillis. Here's another thing that we've talked
    about for your--and congratulations to your family. Are those
    your kids behind you there?
        Mr. Workman. Yes, sir.
        Senator Tillis. Congratulations to you, and Mr. Bartrum,
    too. For 10 years I've been here, we've talked about we need to
    fix the TAP program. And for 10 years I've said that what we
    need to do is have the right analytics coming out of the DoD,
    and we will be successful when we have a TAP classroom of one.
        The problem that you have now, if you go into the
    Transition Assistance Program, you got some of the more senior
    people that may have, you know, financial sort of literacy at a
    different level than you're going to have some kid just coming
    out, they may have their earbuds in, are watching something on
    their phone while they're punching the ticket to go through
    TAP. We all know that that happens. It's a disservice to those
    kids to put them in the same classroom for someone else
    punching the ticket.
        Do you know whether or not there's any sort of incentive or
    back review on the extent to which that TAP program has been
    proven beneficial to the students? In other words, some way to
    measure in an after action whether or not that TAP program, and
    the instructors for that matter, are held up to a standard on
    efficacy and ultimate result for the TAP program?
        Mr. Workman. Well, Senator, I thank you for the question. I
    have not been in VETS down at the Department of Labor. I can
    assure you, if confirmed, and I get into VETS, we are going to
    take a look at that.
        Senator Tillis. My guess is the answer is no. And I came
    from large organizations where metrics matter, and my guess is
    the way that we're finally going to get a TAP program that
    makes sense and does right by our warriors, our veterans, is to
    just focus on that. Have that as a goal.
        I know it will take time, it will take years, it will not
    be completed in your tenure, but I'm really tired of people
    talking about it. And I think if we're intellectually honest
    with ourselves, it's been a bipartisan failure to substantially
    change the TAP program since you went through it.
        Mr. Workman. Absolutely.
        Senator Tillis. And we owe our service members more, and we
    need to be instructed by information coming out of the
    electronic health record and everything else in the DoD to do
    right by them--what I want to do, the only thing I saw in your
    resume that I'd like to spend some more time on, and we're not
    going to do it here, but I'd like your commitment to talk a
    little bit about this large organization, if you're confirmed,
    that you're going to inherit--and you've got a great resume.
        As a matter of fact, about the only lapse in judgment that
    I've seen in your resume is you're trying to run for Lieutenant
    Governor in Ohio a while back. But other than that, you look
    pretty solid. You're clearly a patriot.
        But I'd like to, if I can just get a commitment, maybe we
    can get on a phone call or if you can come over to my office, I
    didn't get an opportunity to talk with you in advance to just
    get your sense of the people that are going to be around you
    that will have that large organization expertise that you're
    going to need. And then maybe you can convince me that that
    maybe you have some relevant experience.
        I don't expect the President of the United States or you to
    be a subject matter expert in the organization that you're
    inheriting, but you need to have the apparatus in place to
    understand the level of complexity and the challenges you're
    going to have as a manager, having nothing to do with you being
    a warfighter or a veteran.
        Mr. Workman. Absolutely.
        Senator Tillis. Can I get that commitment to just follow up
    with----
        Mr. Workman. Absolutely, Senator.
        Senator Tillis [continuing]. What we'll share with you is
    our assessment that I've read on areas. So, we'll share bluntly
    the assessment that we've read confidentially between us, and
    we can have a good discussion on it.
        Mr. Workman. Absolutely.
        Senator Tillis. I look forward to having that discussion. I
    thank you all for being here today. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Tillis, thank you. Both of you
    gentlemen, a lot of what I know about veterans is what I hear
    from them. A lot of what we respond to is what we call casework
    in which a veteran has brought to us a problem they're having
    with the VA. And I want to just highlight the importance of
    your ability to help us solve that veteran's problem.
        But I want to take that a step further. Often, I'm
    successful in getting the VA to respond to a specific case that
    we bring to their attention, but I'm quite certain that in many
    instances, it's not a one-place circumstance. And so, it's nice
    to solve a problem for a veteran. It would be better to solve
    the problem for that veteran and every other veteran that's
    experiencing something similar from the VA.
        And in addition to that, often I'm told that something has
    changed at the Department of Veterans Affairs, but when I'm
    back in Kansas, no one at the VA knows what I've been told. So,
    there's a lot of disconnect between something that is decided
    here as a policy and it being, not only not implemented, but
    not even known that the policy has changed.
        I assume that you would confirm to me that in the things
    I've just described, you will be an ally in making certain that
    an individual, but all veterans are cared for when we raise
    these topics, and you'll take greater steps than have occurred
    in the past to make sure that the people who work at the VA
    know what the new rules and policies are.
        Mr. Bartrum. Sir, as we talked before about this topic, I
    can assure you I will be on the front line on that fight with
    you.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. And Mr. Bartrum, I'm going to
    put you to the test already. We're working with the Ranking
    Member, Senator Blumenthal, the Department of Veterans Affairs,
    and the Congressional Budget Office to move my community care
    bill, the ACCESS Act. And we're working on a CBO score that
    requires some information from the VA, that my understanding is
    the VA has--we need the VA to provide additional clarification
    information to CBO on that bill. And we're particularly talking
    about Section 103.
        I don't know what the delay has been, but I'm asking you to
    commit to make sure the VA delivers that information, ASAP, but
    no later than tomorrow. Would you take this task back and see
    if we can get that information so we can move forward with this
    ACCESS Act?
        Mr. Bartrum. Yes, sir.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Anything that either one of you
    would like to add to what you said or response, any of your
    responses that deserve any clarification, or----
        All right. Well, we thank you both for being here. Thank
    you for your service in particular. Any Member of this
    Committee who would like to send questions for the record to
    one of the nominees or both of the nominees should do so as
    soon as possible, but no later than the close of business
    tomorrow. And then we would we would expect and appreciate a
    timely response to our Committee members questions so that your
    nominations can be fully considered.
        Chairman Moran. With that, the hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 5:21 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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                                A P P E N D I X

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                           Submissions for the Record

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                            Nomination Material for

                                  JOHN BARTRUM

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                            Nomination Material for

                                JEREMIAH WORKMAN

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