[Senate Hearing 119-98]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
______
S. Hrg. 119-98
NOMINATION OF MICHAEL BOREN TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE FOR
NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT
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HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
June 3, 2025
__________
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60-657 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado
JONI ERNST, Iowa TINA SMITH, Minnesota
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas CORY BOOKER, New Jersey
TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa PETER WELCH, Vermont
JOHN THUNE, South Dakota JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska ADAM SCHIFF, California
JERRY MORAN, Kansas ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan
Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director
Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk
Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director
Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
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Tuesday, June 3, 2025
Page
Hearing:
Nomination of Michael Boren to be Under Secretary of Agriculture
for
Natural Resources and Environment.............................. 1
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STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS
Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Arkansas...... 1
Klobuchar, Hon. Amy, U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota.... 2
WITNESS
Boren, Michael, of Idaho, to be Under Secretary of Agriculture
for Natural Resources and Environment.......................... 6
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APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Boren, Michael............................................... 18
Document(s) Submitted for the Record:
Boozman, Hon. John:
National Cattlemen's Beef Association in support of Michael
Boren, letter of support................................... 22
Statement for the record submitted for the record by Mike
Crapo...................................................... 25
Marshall, Hon. Roger:
Statement submitted for the record by Roger Marshall......... 32
Fetterman, Hon. John:
Statement submitted for the record by John Fetterman......... 33
Risch, Hon. James:
Introduction for Michael Boren submitted for the record by
Hon. James Risch........................................... 34
Boren, Michael:
Committee questionnaire, Office of Government Ethics
Executive Branch Personnel Public Financial Disclosure
Report and 5-day letter filed by Michael Boren............. 36
Question and Answer:
Boren, Michael:
Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........ 136
Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville..... 138
Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet....... 139
Written response to questions from Hon. Cory Booker.......... 141
Written response to questions from Hon. Ben Ray Lujan........ 143
Written response to questions from Hon. Raphael Warnock...... 143
Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch.......... 146
Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff.......... 148
NOMINATION OF MICHAEL BOREN TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE FOR
NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT
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TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 2025
U.S. Senate
Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:15 p.m., in
Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. John Boozman,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Boozman [presiding], Hoeven, Ernst, Hyde-
Smith, Marshall, Tuberville, Justice, Grassley, Fischer,
Klobuchar, Bennet, Smith, Warnock, Welch, Fetterman, Schiff,
and Slotkin.
Also present: Senator Risch.
STATEMENT OF HON. BOOZMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF
ARKANSAS, CHAIRMAN, U.S. COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION,
AND FORESTRY
Chairman Boozman. Okay. Good afternoon. Today, we welcome
Mr. Michael Boren of Idaho to the Committee as we consider his
nomination to be Under Secretary for the Natural Resources and
Environment, or NRE, mission area at the Department of
Agriculture. The forest and grasslands of the United States
Forest Service serve a variety of functions, wildlife habitat,
outdoor recreation, oil, gas, minerals, and timber. I look
forward to hearing from Mr. Boren on how he views this
multiple-use mandate for the Forest Service.
I am concerned that recent years have seen a reduction in
the priority for timber. However, I am pleased with some of the
actions President Trump and USDA have taken to try and address
this problem. Utilizing our forest to sequester carbon also
requires responsibility by harvesting timber and properly
managing our forests, which provide an almost unlimited
resource, resulting in a win-win for everyone. When timber is
harvested and ultimately stored in lumber and other end
products, that carbon is preserved almost permanently.
Perhaps an even better way our forests can serve our
Nation's environmental powerhouse is by preventing and
mitigating future catastrophic wildfires. There is a statistic
I know we have all heard before, but it is still astounding to
me. California wildfires in 2020 released twice as many
greenhouse emissions than the state reduced between 2003 and
2019. Properly managing our Nation's forests can do more to
prevent carbon emissions than almost anything else we can do in
Congress.
Thankfully, this Committee is currently considering the Fix
Our Forests Act, and we hope to move this forward in the very
near future and get this legislation signed into law. FOFA will
provide the right tools and processes for our federal land
management agencies, including the U.S. Forest Service, to
mitigate the frequency and intensity of catastrophic wildfires.
If confirmed as the Under Secretary of the USDA mission
area that oversees the Forest Service, the Committee will look
to you to quickly implement FOFA and follow in congressional
intent. Your leadership and background will be critical in
ensuring the Forest Service is efficient and effective in
carrying out the critical job of the mission area. Doing this
successfully will ensure that all Americans can enjoy the
benefits of our Nation's forests and grasslands for years to
come.
I expect that Congress and this Committee will be able to
work with Mr. Boren and rely on his professionalism and candor
as we conduct necessary oversight over the multi-layered
programs and efforts under his purview. We expect you and your
team will be prompt in our requests and work with the Committee
to provide needed information and technical assistance. We will
trust your experience and expertise to steward our national
forests over the course of your time, should you be confirmed
as Under Secretary.
Mr. Boren, I want to again congratulate you on your
nomination to be Under Secretary for Natural Resources and
Environment at USDA, and we look forward to hearing from you
today.
I now turn to our Ranking Member, Senator Klobuchar, for
her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. KLOBUCHAR, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF
MINNESOTA
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, and thank you,
Senator Risch. Thank you for coming here and to the nominee as
well.
I spoke with Mr. Boren. I appreciated that very much. I
would like to welcome his family, including his wife, Joan, and
his father, Robert Boren, and two of his children and daughter-
in-law, who I understand are here.
Mr. Boren, if confirmed, you will oversee the U.S. Forest
Service, which is, as we all know, responsible for managing 193
million acres of forest and grassland. You are being considered
for this position at a critical time for the Forest Service. As
the Chairman mentioned, the wildfires in California, which, of
course, created just unimaginable harm. I will note sometimes
there are smaller fires as well that can quickly get out of
control, as you and I talked about, Mr. Boren. I have
appreciated the Forest Service's work, as I told Secretary
Rollins, working with the State of Minnesota in just the last
few weeks to contain fires in northern Minnesota that quickly
spread to acres and acres. We currently have fires in Canada
that are not really close to our state in terms of burning
forests, but are creating huge smoke issues in a lot of parts
of the United States with more to come.
The Forest Service has an important multiple-use mandate to
manage lands for timber, recreation, watershed health, and
more. USDA's and Interior's focus on wildlife suppression and
prevention are very important right now.
A critical part of reducing wildfire risk is the Forest
Service and its partners carrying out more forest management,
and I recognize the USDA recently released an active forest
management strategy, and I welcome its focus on increasing the
use of Good Neighbor Authority, a bill that I had worked on for
years and other partnership agreements.
Mr. Boren, if confirmed, you will be responsible for
implementing these recent directives and for responding to
wildfires. I do remain concerned about the Forest Service's
capacity to carry out the important work to reduce wildlife
risk and severity. The Forest Service has reportedly lost more
than 4,000 employees since January, and my office has received
reports of Forest Service contracts having been canceled and
delayed, including some projects focused on reduction of
wildfire risk. Workforce reductions and disruptions in funding
and contracts raise questions about the Forest Service's
ability to balance its many responsibilities. These are
concerns I have raised in several communications with the USDA
and need clarity from the agency.
The Administration's proposed budget that just came out
also contributes to the uncertainty. The budget makes deep cuts
in National Forest Service system funding, popular programs
that strengthen state and private sector capacity for managing
forests and forestry research. This is confusing, following
recent testimony to this Committee from the Forest Service on
the need to rely on state and private partners.
The budget also recommends moving wildland fire operations
to the Department of Interior from the USDA's Forest Service.
While I am open to reviewing the details of this proposal, I am
concerned it would hurt the Forest Service's ability to execute
wildfire mitigation and other land management work.
Mr. Boren, these proposals raise questions about the Forest
Service's approach to overseeing the wildfire crisis that we
are seeing in so many states, as my colleague Senator Bennet
knows from his home State of Colorado and managing Forest
Service lands. I look forward to hearing more about how, if
confirmed, you will work to ensure the Forest Service addresses
these challenges and how you will ensure our national forests
remain a place for all Americans to enjoy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back my one minute to
Senator Risch.
Senator Risch. I will take it. Thank you.
Chairman Boozman. Senator Hoeven wanted to know what job we
were confirming Senator Risch for.
[Laughter.]
Senator Risch. You should be so lucky to vote.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Boozman. Today, we are more than pleased to have
our good friend and colleague, Senator Risch, with us, who
truly is a champion of agriculture in rural America throughout
this country. He will be introducing our nominee, Mr. Michael
Boren. Thank you for being here again, Senator Risch.
Please proceed.
Senator Risch. Well, thank you very much. It is good to get
even with you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to yourself and the
Ranking Member for having me here today.
I think you have introduced more people than I have. I have
got more nominees in my Committee than any of the other
Committees, and I think you have introduced more of them than
anybody else. I was thinking of getting you your own chair in
the committee room.
Thank you. Thank you for being here. It is a great honor to
do this for a lot of different reasons. Obviously, forestry is
a passion of mine. My undergraduate degree was in forestry and
forest management. We have not had Idaho fingerprints on the
Forest Service since I was Governor. When I was Governor, one
of my classmates, actually, was Chief of the Forest Service. We
are going to have a Chief of the Forest Service from Idaho and,
of course, this position now from Idaho.
It is so important because people, particularly if you live
east of the Mississippi, it is hard to fathom that our state is
owned by 2/3 by the Federal Government. Two out of every three
acres in the State of Idaho is owned by the Federal Government.
It is an entirely different ball game doing business there,
commerce and everything else. Particularly when the state has
cut its teeth on mining and on forestry and those kinds of
things, it is very difficult to operate sometimes with the
Federal Government. They are not always the best neighbors in
the world. Most federal employees are good people, hardworking
people, well-intentioned people, but there are some that make
being a neighbor with the Federal Government challenging.
Turning to the nominee, President Trump has picked, I
think, the right person for this job. If you go into his
background, obviously, he has been a very successful person in
the business sector. Beyond that, he has considerable roots in
the forest. He started as a teenager working with the Forest
Service and doing business with the Forest Service. It followed
his family. His father had quite a lot of dealings with the
Forest Service, which he will talk about in his opening
statement, as did his wife's grandfather, I believe it was. He
comes at it from a couple different ways.
One of the things I am sure that you are going to ask him
about is there has been a lot of media about disagreements he
has had with the Federal Government. I can tell you that in
Idaho, where we have all this federal land, there are pieces of
ground called inholdings. If you are from the east of the
Mississippi, you have never heard of the word inholdings. When
you are from out west, as a lot of our Members are, they know
what an inholding is. I can tell you, most federal people, when
you talk to them, will not concede that they are not very--
Senator, do not you want to hear the rest of this?
[Laughter.]
Senator Grassley. Sorry. There is a meeting I got though.
Senator Risch. I have listened to you over these years, and
I cannot understand----
[Laughter.]
Senator Risch. No, no, no, no, no.
[Laughter.]
Senator Risch. He takes things literally, you know.
[Laughter.]
Senator Risch. In any event, when you have inholdings,
usually the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) and the Forest
Service are not really happy with inholdings, and they are not
always the best neighbor. To be honest with you, I have never--
and I have dealt with these kind of problems when I was
Governor in my decades in the State Senate. I dealt with a lot
of people that had problems with the BLM and the Forest Service
who had inholdings. They were disputes that really should have
been resolved like good neighbors resolve them. Instead, they
turn into public debates, and it can be difficult and reaches a
fever pitch at times.
I have never yet run into anybody that has an inholding--
and they are relatively common in the West. I have never run
into anybody that has an inholding property that has not had
some disagreement with their neighbor, the Federal Government.
I am sure you will want to ask him questions about this, and I
am sure he will explain these to you, but these are difficult
things, and he has a considerable amount of land that is not an
inholding. As I say, he will be able to explain to you the
disputes that he has had with the Federal Government on these.
Look, this is the right guy for this job. I commend the
President of the United States for choosing him for this
particular position, and I would commend his nomination to you.
I know that you will look at this favorably and civilly when
you deal with him. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
If I can be excused, please, I have got another meeting I
have to go to.
Chairman Boozman. I guess we will let you go. Thank you----
Senator Risch. Senator Klobuchar, you are not going to
cross-examine me if that is what you think.
[Laughter.]
Senator Klobuchar. Looking so inviting.
Senator Risch. Yes, I know.
Chairman Boozman. Thank you for being here.
Senator Risch. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Chairman Boozman. We know you are busy. Thank you so much.
Okay. I will now administer the oath and then begin with
witness testimony. You will have five minutes. Please stand and
raise your right hand.
Chairman Boozman. Do you swear or affirm that the
statements you are about to provide is the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Boren. Yes.
Chairman Boozman. Do you agree that, if confirmed, you will
respond to requests to appear and testify before any duly
constituted Committee of the Senate?
Mr. Boren. Yes.
Chairman Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Boren. You are now
recognized for your statement.
STATEMENT OF MICHAEL BOREN, TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF
AGRICULTURE FOR NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Boren. Thank you, Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member
Klobuchar, and Members of the Committee. It is a real honor to
be here today to appear before you. I have had a very pleasant
opportunity to meet some of you in your offices and learn some
good things about your states and about what you are concerned
with.
If confirmed, it will be a privilege for me to spend time
working with you as you exercise your responsibilities and
authorities and oversight with the Forest Service and the
Department of Agriculture. I am thankful to President Donald
Trump and to Secretary Brooke Rollins for the trust they have
placed in me in this nomination. I think they are very
inspiring people, and I hope you will give me the opportunity
to work for them.
May I introduce my wife and partner of 41 years? It has
been a really interesting ride. Meeting Joan at a church dance
changed my life. It made it harder; it made it so much more
worthwhile, and it gave me so much more reason to be the best
that I could be.
Joan and I have--we have a life of adventure. It is so many
times we look at each other at the end of a day and say,
truthfully, just another best day ever. We have had some great
days. We have had hard days, and they have been great days.
My father, Robert Boren, a retired professor and Forest
Service employee and consultant with the Forest Service for
many, many years, is with us today. I am really pleased to have
him here. He spent many days in the forest since 1937 when he
first got to the forest.
My mother died in 2012 after 54 years of marriage to my
father. She was a really great example to me. She was a true
pioneer, and she spent her life serving other people, and I am
glad to have known her and to have been her son--to be her son.
Joan and I have three children. Two of them are able to be
here today, Jack and Amanda. Jack's wife, Ashley, is here as
well, and Amanda is here with her daughter, my granddaughter,
Stevie, one of nine grandchildren that we have had, one a year
for nine years, so it has been quite a ride there as well.
I love my grandchildren and my children, and I will do
everything I can to preserve the beauty and the opportunity and
the freedom that is America for them. That is why I am here
today, among other reasons, but I am here to serve my children
and your children and grandchildren.
I am thankful to be supported by many friends and family
members. Some of them are here today, and many more of them are
watching live, and I am glad to have their support.
The United States Forest Service has always been a part of
my life. I remember some of my earliest memories are when my
father was working for the Clayton Ranger District in central
Idaho in the summers. He spent long hours there. There was too
much to do and too few employees. I know that seems surprising
that we are back to that today, but I think it has maybe always
been the case. Somehow, he and the ranger got it done. I have
to say the ranger to me was larger than life. That was the
really important person in our county, and I really looked up
to him.
Later in his life, my father worked for the Forest Service
and the Interagency Fire Center, which is based in Boise,
Idaho, as a consultant, and I had a lot of time to learn things
from him about that as well. I feel like I have a pretty good
grounding in some of the challenges and opportunities of the
Forest Service.
As Senator Risch mentioned, my brother Dave and I worked as
teenagers. We had a business buying logs from the Forest
Service and cutting them up into posts and poles and selling
them to neighboring ranches. That was so successful that the
next year we decided to make more money, we would be GS-1 level
employees of the Forest Service and plant trees, and that went
pretty well. We have some experience there.
I have accessed the forest in almost every way you can
imagine, on foot, on horseback, skis, snowshoes, snowcats,
snowmobiles, every kind of conveyance from motorcycles to ATVs
to UTVs, four-wheel drives, and motorized and non-motorized
boats, and especially aircraft and helicopters. I can tell you
it has given me a real appreciation for the difficulty of
maintaining and increasing and improving access to the forest
for the general public. This is a very important issue for me
because I believe that when people go to the forest, it is a
spiritual experience, it is an awakening, and it is a patriotic
experience for them, and I want to make sure they have that
opportunity.
My wife's grandfather, Leonard Berg, who Senator Risch
mentioned, worked for the Forest Service his whole career and
ended his career here in Washington, DC, and I really admired
him. I also have recognized his abilities and strengths and
integrity in many of the employees of the Forest Service with
whom I hope to be able to work.
It looks like I am about out of time. I could tell you more
about my career and my background, but I feel that I am
uniquely positioned to support the Forest Service in its role,
and I think that it will be a blessing to work for the Forest
Service if you confirm me to this position. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Boren can be found on pages
18-19 in the appendix.]
Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Before I ask my questions, I
would like to add letters in support of Mr. Boren's nomination
into the record, as well as a statement from Senator Crapo, who
has a conflict. He is, as you know, Chairman of Finance and is
busy right now.
Without objection, so ordered.
[The letters can be found on pages 22-31 in the appendix.]
Chairman Boozman. I will go ahead and start.
Due to the rise of catastrophic fires across the United
States, federal and state land management agencies and private
forestry owners recognize the need to increase the pace and
scale of hazardous fuels reductions on federal lands and cross-
boundary landscapes.
Mr. Boren, what is your view of Forest Service's role on
forest management tools like timber production that can prevent
catastrophic wildfires? How can the Forest Service proactively
manage our forests to promote wildfire resiliency?
Mr. Boren. The Forest Service--thank you, Senator, for that
question and for having me here.
The Forest Service has many tools available to it to manage
the forests, to sustain their health and diversity and
productivity, and I think we should use all of them, in
particular the tools relating to timber production, which are
important not only for making the forest more healthy and more
resilient and fire-resistant but also for revenue to the
government of the United States and therefore its people, and
also to be able to use those organizations to take care of some
of our trails and roads, so it is really important to produce
timber.
It is also important to reduce fuel accumulation where
timber is not the best way to do it or to do it in conjunction
with that, and I feel like that is something that is really
well done in coordination with timber producers and other
groups, and we can look in particular to state forestry
organizations to see some of the good things that they have
done.
Chairman Boozman. Very good. Across the Western United
States, the checkerboard pattern of land ownership between
public, private, and tribal landowners creates confusion and
limits active management of the forest. These limitations can
negatively impact our national forests. How do you view these
cross-boundary issues, and how can the Forest Service engage
with other public and private land managers?
Mr. Boren. Well, as a private landowner, I know the
checkerboard nature of the West is difficult because it does
not matter what you do on your own land in terms of noxious
weeds reduction and prevention or in terms of fire prevention,
your neighbors need to be involved. I think there have been
some really good things that you in Congress have done over the
past few years along those lines. I know there is an
interesting checkerboard project for fuels reduction in
California today with Sierra Pacific Industries and possibly
with other companies that is a good example of how the public
and private landowners can get together to deal with fuels
reduction and other methods of mitigation, and I would think we
could do a lot more of that.
Chairman Boozman. Timber sales from national forests
benefit many stakeholders by mitigating wildfires, preventing
pests and disease outbreaks, and supporting the economy of
local communities. Unfortunately, many mills are struggling due
to fluctuations in the amount of timber from our forests and
the demand for forest products. What is your view on the value
of timber sales when it comes to supporting rural economies and
forest management, and what can the Forest Service play in
supporting mills, which is with a steady supply of timber?
Mr. Boren. I have seen firsthand the problems that come
with lack of timber production and the things that happen to
rural communities when they lose a timber mill, a lumber mill,
and I realize that it is very difficult these days to add new
lumber mills to replace the old ones. One of the reasons is the
cost is really high. It costs maybe $300 million to build a
good, successful lumber mill, and nobody is willing to do that
if they do not have a guarantee of production to be able to
maintain their mill for a long period of time.
While it is very important to support our rural communities
by producing more timber, by selling more timber, if there is
no one to buy it, if there is no one to process it, you cannot
have that mill. You cannot build those economies. We need to do
more than just say we are going to produce more timber. We need
to encourage long-term contracts with mill owners so that they
have a reason to believe that they can invest $300 million in a
mill and make a living out of it over the long term. We need to
work with other entities, state forests, for example, and
private forests to help find ways to grow our rural economies
by providing them a steady supply of timber.
Chairman Boozman. Senator Klobuchar.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Senator Boozman.
I think I will start with the staffing issue I raised in
the opening just with the thousands of employees that have left
and terminated. There was deferred resignation plans and then
the White House's direction to federal agencies to plan for
additional layoffs.
Mr. Boren, how will you ensure resignations and
terminations will not affect the ability of the Forest Service
to prevent and address the dangers of wildfires?
Mr. Boren. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. That is a very
important point. We certainly need to have an appropriate level
of staff to fulfill our mission.
I have not had an experience with the Forest Service yet
where I understand what the staffing levels are and how they
are being applied, but I am very familiar with resource-
constrained organizations, having worked in one and for one
that I started for many years, where we started with a very
small amount of money and never really had enough to do what we
needed to do. I certainly would not say that that guarantees
that I will be able to figure it out immediately at the Forest
Service, but I know that we have to live with the resources
that we receive, and we will find a way to do that.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay. The present budget proposes moving
wildland fire management outside of the USDA. This is a
significant responsibility of the Forest Service that would be
transferred to the Department of Interior, and I understand
some have questions about the impact on this on managing
wildfire responses. Could you talk about how this proposal
could affect the agency's fire mitigation work, like prescribed
burns, and how you will work with states, tribes, and employees
and other interested parties as this proposal is considered?
Mr. Boren. I have questions, as you do. I do not fully
understand the proposal and how it is intended to work. I do
have a background through my father and through living in
Boise, Idaho, and visiting the Interagency Fire Center and
through being a firefighter and working with incident
management teams where it is very clear to me that cooperation
with other agencies and other organizations is the way to fight
fire. I am sure that if this transfer occurs, the Forest
Service will still be intimately involved, since that
organization is responsible for most of the federal forests and
a large chunk of grasslands and responsible for keeping them in
good condition.
Senator Klobuchar. Exactly. Thank you. That is part of why
I am so worried about this. Thanks for mentioning that because,
as you acknowledge here, the Forest Service is charged with
managing forests and watersheds, wildlife habitat, and these
are responsibilities of the Forest Service. Could you very
quickly, because I want to get something else, mention what
policies or practices you would promote to balance these
multiple uses to ensure the long-term health of forests and
grasslands?
Mr. Boren. I will try to be brief. That is a really big
question, Senator. Multiple use is super important. All of the
people in America own our forests and grasslands, and they all
have different ideas about how they should be used, and we need
to find ways to balance all of the uses--recreation, timber
production, clean air and water--which sometimes involves non-
production in areas, oil and gas and forage. There are lots of
things that we need to balance, and I--you know, we just need
to always be mindful of everyone else's position.
I find that when we get into a negotiation--when I get into
a negotiation frequently, it is important to show--to learn
what the other person wants and not to worry too much about my
own personal needs.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Senator Risch mentioned that you
had, as a landowner and has had some disagreements about
easements with the Forest Service near your Idaho ranch, and
could you talk about these disagreements briefly? You can
follow-up in writing. How will you respond to those that may
disagree with your positions or decisions, including employees
or members of the public?
Mr. Boren. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. That
is a long conversation, potentially, but----
Senator Klobuchar. Well, Senator Risch opened the door.
Mr. Boren. He did.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Boren. He did, and he is aware of some things that have
happened that have been difficult for me and some that I felt
were oppressive because I have talked to him about those. I
think one of the important things to point out is that I do not
have disputes with the Forest Service. He did use that word,
but I would disagree with that. As a landowner, I have had
disagreements from time to time with the Forest Service.
Typically, they have been very aggressive at the beginning of
those disagreements. Eventually, when they got the facts and
when we talked through it and we had reasonable discussions, we
have always come around to a settlement that works for
everyone.
To be very clear about easements, if I may just have a
moment, I--there is a scenic easement on a ranch that I live
on, and I have never had a violation or even a suggestion that
I violated--well, I have had one suggestion, but it was clear
that it did not happen, and it was retracted. I have not had
violations of that easement, ever.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Just last, very quickly, will you
commit to not interfering with and, in fact, recusing yourself
from any existing or future matters involving properties that
you, your family members, or your friends own or are affiliated
with the Forest Service?
Mr. Boren. Senator, I have had incredibly detailed
discussions with USDA ethics attorneys, who, by the way, are
amazing. I will commit to making sure they always know
everything about anything that could be a conflict of interest
that I can tell them and to always following their advice.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.
Chairman Boozman. Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thanks for coming in and visiting with me earlier. One of
the things we talked about was access in the grasslands, and
that is incredibly important. You have been a rancher all your
life, although you have been involved in other pursuits as
well, obviously. You understand, I think, from a rancher's
perspective. Talk to me about the importance of access for
those ranchers that are in the grazing associations on the
grasslands.
Mr. Boren. Senator, I have been involved in access ideas
and issues for much of my life. It is a really important part
of my life for people to have access to their properties and to
public land to be able to use that land appropriately. There
are often differences of opinion about how to approach that. My
opinion is that the Forest Service is the servant of the people
in managing the assets of the people, known as the national
forests and grasslands. We need to--we--if I happen to be
confirmed by you, the Forest Service should always remember
that it is a service organization for the benefit of the
people, today's people and future generations, and should be
careful to consider the importance of access to the forests or
access to people's grazing leases or grasslands as being of
paramount importance.
Senator Hoeven. I am not sure how it works in every state,
but in our state that means we have to have access to the
section lines. Will you work with us to make sure that our
grazers have access to those section lines so they can access
their herds in the grasslands?
Mr. Boren. I will commit to working with you to resolve
that issue. I cannot promise you that I will make sure it
happens, but I will do my best.
Senator Hoeven. Okay. You understand the need for access
and the importance of access through the section lines, and you
are willing----
Mr. Boren. It is extremely important, and I agree.
Senator Hoeven. Okay. Grazing agreements, are you going to
make sure that grazing agreements for the ranchers out there
are fair, practical, and workable?
Mr. Boren. Senator, yes.
Senator Hoeven. Okay.
Mr. Boren. I have experience with that, not with forest
grazing leases, but with state and BLM leases, and I know it is
very important for both sides to work together.
Senator Hoeven. How about fire control? I mean, the
volunteer fire departments have a huge role in the grasslands
in terms of addressing fire. Most of it is these volunteer
firemen. Sometimes, though, the Federal Government will come in
and do prescribed burns when they should not, high winds or
whatever. Are you willing to work and make sure that that does
not happen, that the Federal Government is working with the
Forest Service, is working with the ranchers on the ground when
it comes to things like controlled burns and other issues?
Mr. Boren. Senator Hoeven, thank you. That is an area that
is important to me. I have been involved with a volunteer fire
department and worked with the Forest Service on fires, and I
think it is very important to work together. It is very
important if you are ever going to do a prescribed burn to make
sure everyone knows about it. The other thing is I think we can
be a little more careful about how and when we do prescribed
burns.
Senator Hoeven. Have you been out in the grasslands and
seen some of the landscapes where the prairie dogs have taken
over and it looks like the moon, lunar landscape?
Mr. Boren. I have, Senator.
Senator Hoeven. Do you think that is appropriate?
Mr. Boren. I do not like it. I think there are solutions,
and we should pursue them.
Senator Hoeven. Right. Just reasonable solutions like a
reasonable buffer so that if somebody has private land, they do
not have a prairie dog infestation that they cannot control.
That is not fair to individual ranchers or grazers, is it?
Mr. Boren. I think the--yes, I think that is correct. That
should happen, and it is not fair. I think that it is the same
thing for prairie dogs as other infestations like weeds. There
should be a buffer zone.
Senator Hoeven. I am glad you mentioned that. Weed control
is really important. We have got noxious weeds. The Assistant
Director at the Forest Service--or Deputy Director Chris French
has been really good about working with us on addressing
noxious weeds, which is a huge issue. One, I want to commend
him and ask for your help and your continued support in
addressing noxious weeds. I cannot imagine why everybody could
not agree that that just makes common sense.
Mr. Boren. Senator, thank you. I will offer you my support,
and I agree it makes common sense. I will say that in my home
area, the Forest Service does a really good job of encouraging
ranchers to control the weeds on their own property, and I
think it is good to have that be reciprocal.
Senator Hoeven. Yes, you said that just right. Thank you
very much.
Chairman Boozman. Senator Bennet.
Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Boren, for being here. I appreciate it. I
know you grew up, you mentioned with your dad, working in the
Forest Service, and I know you have got exposure to the fire
risk that we are all dealing with. In Colorado, there is huge
amounts of concern about how dangerous things are.
I have a lot of concern about what the purpose of the Trump
Administration's decision to move fire suppression out of the
Forest Service is meant to accomplish at a moment when the last
thing we need, I think, is to make it more confusing,
especially when thinking about the current wildfire season that
we are facing right now. It was not clear from your answer to
Senator Klobuchar whether you supported that change, whether
you--you said you had some questions of your own. I have some
questions. I wonder what questions you do have about how to do
it because I am not sure.
I mean, I think maybe there is a philosophical view out
there in the world that separating fire suppression from
mitigation and from wildfire restoration, all that stuff, is a
good idea philosophically. On the ground, I am not sure,
especially in a world where people have come to work together
so well with local communities, volunteer fire departments, the
work that your dad did at the fire center out there. Could you
talk a little bit about that in this context and how you are
going to, when you become in charge of the Forest Service, the
degree to which you will pay attention to the question of
whether this is a good idea or not a good idea, I guess.
Mr. Boren. Senator, thank you. I guess the answer is I am
certainly willing to look at that idea and consider it, and I
can understand on my own without getting into details or being
told by anyone in the Administration yet--and since I am not
there, I have not been--I can see reasons why it is a good idea
to have an agency that is focused on fire, where there is a
person at the head of the agency that can be held fully
responsible.
To be clear, responsibility is a good thing. Consequences
are a good thing. They help shape our decisions. I can see
where there is maybe some value and hope in that, and that
might be part of what is driving it. I have to say I just do
not have the facts yet to really understand all of the reasons
behind it. However, I will commit to you that managing fire so
that it does not cause so many health problems and economic
problems to our country and problems to the forest is very
important to me. It will be a major focus.
Senator Bennet. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think it is
important for the American people and the taxpayer to
understand that fighting these fires costs six times or nine
times more than doing the restoration on the front end, doing
the mitigation on the front end. In that sense, they are
related questions because I hate to say it, but given the
conditions, we may find ourselves paying one way or another,
which is why it is so important, I think, to coordinate this
work. It is very important I think, for the people that are
suppressing the fires to be able to understand and give advice
to the people that are doing the work on the front end as we
think about how to take care of these landscapes and protect
the infrastructure and our water infrastructure in particular.
Can you just respond to that or comment?
Mr. Boren. Yes, I think that is a really insightful
comment, Senator. I think it is--you are actually
underestimating when you say six to nine times because you are
talking about the tangible costs, and the health costs to
America of the wildland fires that we have had is ridiculously
high and overlooked. I can tell you, it is--I have read some of
the studies on that from university professors and other
organizations, and the health risk to Americans, especially
young Americans, is very high. The health risk to our cattle
herds is very high, and none of that is in your six to nine
times number. It is a really expensive thing. It is much better
to be proactive, to take care of our forests so that we do not
end up with the results of firefighters.
Here is another thing that is not included in those costs,
the damage to our watersheds----
Senator Bennet. Yes, that is what----
Mr. Boren [continuing]. which is amazingly huge. I see it
firsthand in our neighborhood because we have had some really
big fires, we have had pristine wilderness rivers that have not
recovered in 20 years.
Senator Bennet. Yes. Well, that is my major concern. Every
single watershed we have is downstream of these forests. I
mean, downhill and downstream. That means that every single
farm and ranch is downstream, every single community, no matter
how big and no matter how small. I mean, really, the entire
American West--I do not think it is an exaggeration to say the
entire American West is at risk. We cannot undo lots of
decisions that have been made up until this moment, I suppose.
We are going to have to find a way to work together in an
urgent way to mitigate the risk that we are facing. I
completely agree that I think we have got to make important
investments on the front end to try to mitigate not just the
cost of fires, but the destruction that they can cause to our
watersheds because without those watersheds, we do not have a
Colorado.
Mr. Boren. I could not agree more, Senator.
Senator Bennet. Thank you. Thanks.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Boozman. Senator Hyde-Smith.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,
Mr. Boren, so much for being here today and your willingness to
serve. I am really glad that Stevie is here today. We do not
get very many little girls in here, so glad that you are here
today, Stevie.
You know, in Mississippi, we call ourselves the ``wood
basket'' of the Nation. You and I had a really good visit about
that. We play a critical role in the U.S. timber supply. We are
uniquely positioned just to meet the growing demands for timber
and wood products, and we also ship them through our ports, our
port at the Gulf of America and down in Mississippi River as
well. Even in challenging times, public and private forests in
Mississippi have been at the forefront of commonsense forest
management that helped keep us healthy, working, and
productive.
In the next farm bill and through the Fix Our Forests Act,
which is currently being considered by the Committee, we hope
to create more opportunities to support this industry that is
very critical to my state, and to improve the essential tools
that we need at the Forest Service to increase the pace and
scale of active forest management in Mississippi and across the
country.
If confirmed, how do you plan to approach management within
the agency, especially when it comes to streamlining projects
and the approvals, coordinating with state and local partners,
and making sure decisions keep on-the-ground realities in mind?
Mr. Boren. Senator Hyde-Smith, one of the things that I
intend to do is learn more about Mississippi and how you have
accomplished the things you have accomplished because some of
the projects that you have been involved in in Mississippi and
some of the things that are going on in the forests in
Mississippi are truly revolutionary and should be applied
throughout the country, and I appreciate your example as a
state.
Really, I think what it comes down to is we have large
tasks ahead of us with the Forest Service in all the areas you
mentioned, and we need coordination with other entities, both
state agencies, but also user groups and other organizations
that want to put skin in the game and be helpful. I think that,
you know, can be a really, really good thing as we have not all
the resources that we need.
One thing we need is help from Senators and
Representatives. You pointed out that we have a need for
streamlining what we do.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Yes.
Mr. Boren. There is some things that we probably cannot
streamline without streamlining some of our acts of Congress
that might need a little tweaking so that they work
appropriately both for protection of the environment, because
one of the things that is important to us is long-term health
of the forests and sustainability of their usability for the
people, so, you know, that is important, but also being able to
get the right things done at the right time on the ground. A
good example of that would be after a fire, it is really
important to use that timber now rather than wait and try and
sell it in three or four years when it has no value. There is
some things you could do to help us with that.
Senator Hyde-Smith. We will be glad to do it. In
Mississippi, it is called hard work. Our successes are because
of hard work and some really good programs with people willing
to invest and people willing to commit.
You know, we have been working on one particular issue for
decades now, and I had the opportunity to mention that to you,
namely developing the area around Lake Okhissa in Franklin
County, Mississippi. It is in the Homochitto National Forest.
It is in southwest Mississippi, beautiful area, so much
potential, 1,100-acre pristine lake down there. It was built
in--in the 1990's is when it was built. You can fish all day
long by yourself almost, and you can ski by yourself. We have
got to develop something to capitalize on the potential around
that area.
In the 2018 Farm Bill, we worked really hard to include a
provision that transferred 150 acres of the Homochitto National
Forest land to support economic development. We are beginning
to see that pay off significantly since that was signed into
law, and we are very excited about that project, some really
good announcements just lately on that.
The goal of this effort is to enable smart, locally-driven
development that complements the natural resources and
increases public access that you have mentioned. I look forward
to continuing working with this Committee in supporting
economic development in this very, very rural area of
Mississippi, two small towns. One of them has a red light, the
other one does not.
Mr. Boren, please share how you view this kind of targeted
land transfer for economic development and what kind of support
the Forest Service could provide to ensure the success of this
project, and both for the community and maintaining stewardship
of the surrounding Homochitto National Forest lands.
Mr. Boren. Thank you for the opportunity to address that,
Senator. I have to correct you from my personal point of view,
though, which is I do not want to fish by myself when I have
got nine grandkids that like to fish.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Boren. It is nice to have some friends, even if you
have to create them.
In terms of your project at Lake Okhissa, I think it is
brilliant. I think it is replicable. I think it is the kind of
thing that we need to try to do throughout our forests to
increase access and use of the forests. I do not know that we
would have to do it just the way you did it, but the idea is
really important, to give people opportunities to benefit from
the use of the forests. I look forward to--I mentioned to your
staff that I would love to learn more about that project, and I
mean it. I look forward to coming to your office and meeting
with them and learning how we can replicate that elsewhere.
Senator Hyde-Smith. I would love for you to come to
Mississippi, and I will take you to Lake Okhissa.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Boren. Well, as long as I do not have to land at the--
what did you call it? The Brookdale Triangle? Because that is a
scary place from what I hear. I am happy to come.
[Laughter.]
Senator Hyde-Smith. We will leave that right there. Thank
you.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Boozman. Well, thank you again for appearing
before the Committee, Mr. Boren, and to our Committee Members
for their participation in today's important hearing, again, as
always, to our staffs who do so much work getting these things
ready.
The record will remain open for two business days. Today's
hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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