    [Senate Hearing 119-98]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                     ______

                                                             S. Hrg. 119-98

     NOMINATION OF MICHAEL BOREN TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE FOR
                       NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                           COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
                            NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  June 3, 2025

                                   __________

                           Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry

     GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT

                      Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/

                             ______

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
     60-657 PDF          WASHINGTON : 2025

               COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY

                        JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman
    MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky            AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado
    JONI ERNST, Iowa                     TINA SMITH, Minnesota
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
    ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas               CORY BOOKER, New Jersey
    TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama            BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
    JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
    CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa               PETER WELCH, Vermont
    JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
    DEB FISCHER, Nebraska                ADAM SCHIFF, California
    JERRY MORAN, Kansas                  ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan

                   Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director
                        Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk
                    Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director
                     Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel
                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                             Tuesday, June 3, 2025

                                                                       Page

    Hearing:

    Nomination of Michael Boren to be Under Secretary of Agriculture
      for
      Natural Resources and Environment..............................     1

                                  ----------

                        STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS

    Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Arkansas......     1
    Klobuchar, Hon. Amy, U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota....     2

                                    WITNESS

    Boren, Michael, of Idaho, to be Under Secretary of Agriculture
      for Natural Resources and Environment..........................     6
                                  ----------

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statements:
        Boren, Michael...............................................    18

    Document(s) Submitted for the Record:
    Boozman, Hon. John:
        National Cattlemen's Beef Association in support of Michael
          Boren, letter of support...................................    22
        Statement for the record submitted for the record by Mike
          Crapo......................................................    25
    Marshall, Hon. Roger:
        Statement submitted for the record by Roger Marshall.........    32
    Fetterman, Hon. John:
        Statement submitted for the record by John Fetterman.........    33
    Risch, Hon. James:
        Introduction for Michael Boren submitted for the record by
          Hon. James Risch...........................................    34

    Boren, Michael:
        Committee questionnaire, Office of Government Ethics
          Executive Branch Personnel Public Financial Disclosure
          Report and 5-day letter filed by Michael Boren.............    36

    Question and Answer:
    Boren, Michael:
        Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   136
        Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville.....   138
        Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   139
        Written response to questions from Hon. Cory Booker..........   141
        Written response to questions from Hon. Ben Ray Lujan........   143
        Written response to questions from Hon. Raphael Warnock......   143
        Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch..........   146
        Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   148

     NOMINATION OF MICHAEL BOREN TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE FOR
                       NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 2025

                                            U.S. Senate
              Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:15 p.m., in
    Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. John Boozman,
    Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
        Present: Senators Boozman [presiding], Hoeven, Ernst, Hyde-
    Smith, Marshall, Tuberville, Justice, Grassley, Fischer,
    Klobuchar, Bennet, Smith, Warnock, Welch, Fetterman, Schiff,
    and Slotkin.
        Also present: Senator Risch.

       STATEMENT OF HON. BOOZMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF
     ARKANSAS, CHAIRMAN, U.S. COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION,
                              AND FORESTRY

        Chairman Boozman. Okay. Good afternoon. Today, we welcome
    Mr. Michael Boren of Idaho to the Committee as we consider his
    nomination to be Under Secretary for the Natural Resources and
    Environment, or NRE, mission area at the Department of
    Agriculture. The forest and grasslands of the United States
    Forest Service serve a variety of functions, wildlife habitat,
    outdoor recreation, oil, gas, minerals, and timber. I look
    forward to hearing from Mr. Boren on how he views this
    multiple-use mandate for the Forest Service.
        I am concerned that recent years have seen a reduction in
    the priority for timber. However, I am pleased with some of the
    actions President Trump and USDA have taken to try and address
    this problem. Utilizing our forest to sequester carbon also
    requires responsibility by harvesting timber and properly
    managing our forests, which provide an almost unlimited
    resource, resulting in a win-win for everyone. When timber is
    harvested and ultimately stored in lumber and other end
    products, that carbon is preserved almost permanently.
        Perhaps an even better way our forests can serve our
    Nation's environmental powerhouse is by preventing and
    mitigating future catastrophic wildfires. There is a statistic
    I know we have all heard before, but it is still astounding to
    me. California wildfires in 2020 released twice as many
    greenhouse emissions than the state reduced between 2003 and
    2019. Properly managing our Nation's forests can do more to
    prevent carbon emissions than almost anything else we can do in
    Congress.
        Thankfully, this Committee is currently considering the Fix
    Our Forests Act, and we hope to move this forward in the very
    near future and get this legislation signed into law. FOFA will
    provide the right tools and processes for our federal land
    management agencies, including the U.S. Forest Service, to
    mitigate the frequency and intensity of catastrophic wildfires.
        If confirmed as the Under Secretary of the USDA mission
    area that oversees the Forest Service, the Committee will look
    to you to quickly implement FOFA and follow in congressional
    intent. Your leadership and background will be critical in
    ensuring the Forest Service is efficient and effective in
    carrying out the critical job of the mission area. Doing this
    successfully will ensure that all Americans can enjoy the
    benefits of our Nation's forests and grasslands for years to
    come.
        I expect that Congress and this Committee will be able to
    work with Mr. Boren and rely on his professionalism and candor
    as we conduct necessary oversight over the multi-layered
    programs and efforts under his purview. We expect you and your
    team will be prompt in our requests and work with the Committee
    to provide needed information and technical assistance. We will
    trust your experience and expertise to steward our national
    forests over the course of your time, should you be confirmed
    as Under Secretary.
        Mr. Boren, I want to again congratulate you on your
    nomination to be Under Secretary for Natural Resources and
    Environment at USDA, and we look forward to hearing from you
    today.
        I now turn to our Ranking Member, Senator Klobuchar, for
    her opening statement.

      STATEMENT OF HON. KLOBUCHAR, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF
                               MINNESOTA

        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, and thank you,
    Senator Risch. Thank you for coming here and to the nominee as
    well.
        I spoke with Mr. Boren. I appreciated that very much. I
    would like to welcome his family, including his wife, Joan, and
    his father, Robert Boren, and two of his children and daughter-
    in-law, who I understand are here.
        Mr. Boren, if confirmed, you will oversee the U.S. Forest
    Service, which is, as we all know, responsible for managing 193
    million acres of forest and grassland. You are being considered
    for this position at a critical time for the Forest Service. As
    the Chairman mentioned, the wildfires in California, which, of
    course, created just unimaginable harm. I will note sometimes
    there are smaller fires as well that can quickly get out of
    control, as you and I talked about, Mr. Boren. I have
    appreciated the Forest Service's work, as I told Secretary
    Rollins, working with the State of Minnesota in just the last
    few weeks to contain fires in northern Minnesota that quickly
    spread to acres and acres. We currently have fires in Canada
    that are not really close to our state in terms of burning
    forests, but are creating huge smoke issues in a lot of parts
    of the United States with more to come.
        The Forest Service has an important multiple-use mandate to
    manage lands for timber, recreation, watershed health, and
    more. USDA's and Interior's focus on wildlife suppression and
    prevention are very important right now.
        A critical part of reducing wildfire risk is the Forest
    Service and its partners carrying out more forest management,
    and I recognize the USDA recently released an active forest
    management strategy, and I welcome its focus on increasing the
    use of Good Neighbor Authority, a bill that I had worked on for
    years and other partnership agreements.
        Mr. Boren, if confirmed, you will be responsible for
    implementing these recent directives and for responding to
    wildfires. I do remain concerned about the Forest Service's
    capacity to carry out the important work to reduce wildlife
    risk and severity. The Forest Service has reportedly lost more
    than 4,000 employees since January, and my office has received
    reports of Forest Service contracts having been canceled and
    delayed, including some projects focused on reduction of
    wildfire risk. Workforce reductions and disruptions in funding
    and contracts raise questions about the Forest Service's
    ability to balance its many responsibilities. These are
    concerns I have raised in several communications with the USDA
    and need clarity from the agency.
        The Administration's proposed budget that just came out
    also contributes to the uncertainty. The budget makes deep cuts
    in National Forest Service system funding, popular programs
    that strengthen state and private sector capacity for managing
    forests and forestry research. This is confusing, following
    recent testimony to this Committee from the Forest Service on
    the need to rely on state and private partners.
        The budget also recommends moving wildland fire operations
    to the Department of Interior from the USDA's Forest Service.
    While I am open to reviewing the details of this proposal, I am
    concerned it would hurt the Forest Service's ability to execute
    wildfire mitigation and other land management work.
        Mr. Boren, these proposals raise questions about the Forest
    Service's approach to overseeing the wildfire crisis that we
    are seeing in so many states, as my colleague Senator Bennet
    knows from his home State of Colorado and managing Forest
    Service lands. I look forward to hearing more about how, if
    confirmed, you will work to ensure the Forest Service addresses
    these challenges and how you will ensure our national forests
    remain a place for all Americans to enjoy.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back my one minute to
    Senator Risch.
        Senator Risch. I will take it. Thank you.
        Chairman Boozman. Senator Hoeven wanted to know what job we
    were confirming Senator Risch for.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Risch. You should be so lucky to vote.
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman Boozman. Today, we are more than pleased to have
    our good friend and colleague, Senator Risch, with us, who
    truly is a champion of agriculture in rural America throughout
    this country. He will be introducing our nominee, Mr. Michael
    Boren. Thank you for being here again, Senator Risch.
        Please proceed.
        Senator Risch. Well, thank you very much. It is good to get
    even with you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to yourself and the
    Ranking Member for having me here today.
        I think you have introduced more people than I have. I have
    got more nominees in my Committee than any of the other
    Committees, and I think you have introduced more of them than
    anybody else. I was thinking of getting you your own chair in
    the committee room.
        Thank you. Thank you for being here. It is a great honor to
    do this for a lot of different reasons. Obviously, forestry is
    a passion of mine. My undergraduate degree was in forestry and
    forest management. We have not had Idaho fingerprints on the
    Forest Service since I was Governor. When I was Governor, one
    of my classmates, actually, was Chief of the Forest Service. We
    are going to have a Chief of the Forest Service from Idaho and,
    of course, this position now from Idaho.
        It is so important because people, particularly if you live
    east of the Mississippi, it is hard to fathom that our state is
    owned by 2/3 by the Federal Government. Two out of every three
    acres in the State of Idaho is owned by the Federal Government.
    It is an entirely different ball game doing business there,
    commerce and everything else. Particularly when the state has
    cut its teeth on mining and on forestry and those kinds of
    things, it is very difficult to operate sometimes with the
    Federal Government. They are not always the best neighbors in
    the world. Most federal employees are good people, hardworking
    people, well-intentioned people, but there are some that make
    being a neighbor with the Federal Government challenging.
        Turning to the nominee, President Trump has picked, I
    think, the right person for this job. If you go into his
    background, obviously, he has been a very successful person in
    the business sector. Beyond that, he has considerable roots in
    the forest. He started as a teenager working with the Forest
    Service and doing business with the Forest Service. It followed
    his family. His father had quite a lot of dealings with the
    Forest Service, which he will talk about in his opening
    statement, as did his wife's grandfather, I believe it was. He
    comes at it from a couple different ways.
        One of the things I am sure that you are going to ask him
    about is there has been a lot of media about disagreements he
    has had with the Federal Government. I can tell you that in
    Idaho, where we have all this federal land, there are pieces of
    ground called inholdings. If you are from the east of the
    Mississippi, you have never heard of the word inholdings. When
    you are from out west, as a lot of our Members are, they know
    what an inholding is. I can tell you, most federal people, when
    you talk to them, will not concede that they are not very--
    Senator, do not you want to hear the rest of this?
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Grassley. Sorry. There is a meeting I got though.
        Senator Risch. I have listened to you over these years, and
    I cannot understand----
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Risch. No, no, no, no, no.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Risch. He takes things literally, you know.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Risch. In any event, when you have inholdings,
    usually the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) and the Forest
    Service are not really happy with inholdings, and they are not
    always the best neighbor. To be honest with you, I have never--
    and I have dealt with these kind of problems when I was
    Governor in my decades in the State Senate. I dealt with a lot
    of people that had problems with the BLM and the Forest Service
    who had inholdings. They were disputes that really should have
    been resolved like good neighbors resolve them. Instead, they
    turn into public debates, and it can be difficult and reaches a
    fever pitch at times.
        I have never yet run into anybody that has an inholding--
    and they are relatively common in the West. I have never run
    into anybody that has an inholding property that has not had
    some disagreement with their neighbor, the Federal Government.
    I am sure you will want to ask him questions about this, and I
    am sure he will explain these to you, but these are difficult
    things, and he has a considerable amount of land that is not an
    inholding. As I say, he will be able to explain to you the
    disputes that he has had with the Federal Government on these.
        Look, this is the right guy for this job. I commend the
    President of the United States for choosing him for this
    particular position, and I would commend his nomination to you.
    I know that you will look at this favorably and civilly when
    you deal with him. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr.
    Chairman.
        If I can be excused, please, I have got another meeting I
    have to go to.
        Chairman Boozman. I guess we will let you go. Thank you----
        Senator Risch. Senator Klobuchar, you are not going to
    cross-examine me if that is what you think.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Klobuchar. Looking so inviting.
        Senator Risch. Yes, I know.
        Chairman Boozman. Thank you for being here.
        Senator Risch. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
        Chairman Boozman. We know you are busy. Thank you so much.
        Okay. I will now administer the oath and then begin with
    witness testimony. You will have five minutes. Please stand and
    raise your right hand.
        Chairman Boozman. Do you swear or affirm that the
    statements you are about to provide is the truth, the whole
    truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
        Mr. Boren. Yes.
        Chairman Boozman. Do you agree that, if confirmed, you will
    respond to requests to appear and testify before any duly
    constituted Committee of the Senate?
        Mr. Boren. Yes.
        Chairman Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Boren. You are now
    recognized for your statement.

         STATEMENT OF MICHAEL BOREN, TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF
           AGRICULTURE FOR NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT

        Mr. Boren. Thank you, Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member
    Klobuchar, and Members of the Committee. It is a real honor to
    be here today to appear before you. I have had a very pleasant
    opportunity to meet some of you in your offices and learn some
    good things about your states and about what you are concerned
    with.
        If confirmed, it will be a privilege for me to spend time
    working with you as you exercise your responsibilities and
    authorities and oversight with the Forest Service and the
    Department of Agriculture. I am thankful to President Donald
    Trump and to Secretary Brooke Rollins for the trust they have
    placed in me in this nomination. I think they are very
    inspiring people, and I hope you will give me the opportunity
    to work for them.
        May I introduce my wife and partner of 41 years? It has
    been a really interesting ride. Meeting Joan at a church dance
    changed my life. It made it harder; it made it so much more
    worthwhile, and it gave me so much more reason to be the best
    that I could be.
        Joan and I have--we have a life of adventure. It is so many
    times we look at each other at the end of a day and say,
    truthfully, just another best day ever. We have had some great
    days. We have had hard days, and they have been great days.
        My father, Robert Boren, a retired professor and Forest
    Service employee and consultant with the Forest Service for
    many, many years, is with us today. I am really pleased to have
    him here. He spent many days in the forest since 1937 when he
    first got to the forest.
        My mother died in 2012 after 54 years of marriage to my
    father. She was a really great example to me. She was a true
    pioneer, and she spent her life serving other people, and I am
    glad to have known her and to have been her son--to be her son.
        Joan and I have three children. Two of them are able to be
    here today, Jack and Amanda. Jack's wife, Ashley, is here as
    well, and Amanda is here with her daughter, my granddaughter,
    Stevie, one of nine grandchildren that we have had, one a year
    for nine years, so it has been quite a ride there as well.
        I love my grandchildren and my children, and I will do
    everything I can to preserve the beauty and the opportunity and
    the freedom that is America for them. That is why I am here
    today, among other reasons, but I am here to serve my children
    and your children and grandchildren.
        I am thankful to be supported by many friends and family
    members. Some of them are here today, and many more of them are
    watching live, and I am glad to have their support.
        The United States Forest Service has always been a part of
    my life. I remember some of my earliest memories are when my
    father was working for the Clayton Ranger District in central
    Idaho in the summers. He spent long hours there. There was too
    much to do and too few employees. I know that seems surprising
    that we are back to that today, but I think it has maybe always
    been the case. Somehow, he and the ranger got it done. I have
    to say the ranger to me was larger than life. That was the
    really important person in our county, and I really looked up
    to him.
        Later in his life, my father worked for the Forest Service
    and the Interagency Fire Center, which is based in Boise,
    Idaho, as a consultant, and I had a lot of time to learn things
    from him about that as well. I feel like I have a pretty good
    grounding in some of the challenges and opportunities of the
    Forest Service.
        As Senator Risch mentioned, my brother Dave and I worked as
    teenagers. We had a business buying logs from the Forest
    Service and cutting them up into posts and poles and selling
    them to neighboring ranches. That was so successful that the
    next year we decided to make more money, we would be GS-1 level
    employees of the Forest Service and plant trees, and that went
    pretty well. We have some experience there.
        I have accessed the forest in almost every way you can
    imagine, on foot, on horseback, skis, snowshoes, snowcats,
    snowmobiles, every kind of conveyance from motorcycles to ATVs
    to UTVs, four-wheel drives, and motorized and non-motorized
    boats, and especially aircraft and helicopters. I can tell you
    it has given me a real appreciation for the difficulty of
    maintaining and increasing and improving access to the forest
    for the general public. This is a very important issue for me
    because I believe that when people go to the forest, it is a
    spiritual experience, it is an awakening, and it is a patriotic
    experience for them, and I want to make sure they have that
    opportunity.
        My wife's grandfather, Leonard Berg, who Senator Risch
    mentioned, worked for the Forest Service his whole career and
    ended his career here in Washington, DC, and I really admired
    him. I also have recognized his abilities and strengths and
    integrity in many of the employees of the Forest Service with
    whom I hope to be able to work.
        It looks like I am about out of time. I could tell you more
    about my career and my background, but I feel that I am
    uniquely positioned to support the Forest Service in its role,
    and I think that it will be a blessing to work for the Forest
    Service if you confirm me to this position. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Boren can be found on pages
    18-19 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Before I ask my questions, I
    would like to add letters in support of Mr. Boren's nomination
    into the record, as well as a statement from Senator Crapo, who
    has a conflict. He is, as you know, Chairman of Finance and is
    busy right now.
        Without objection, so ordered.
        [The letters can be found on pages 22-31 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Boozman. I will go ahead and start.
        Due to the rise of catastrophic fires across the United
    States, federal and state land management agencies and private
    forestry owners recognize the need to increase the pace and
    scale of hazardous fuels reductions on federal lands and cross-
    boundary landscapes.
        Mr. Boren, what is your view of Forest Service's role on
    forest management tools like timber production that can prevent
    catastrophic wildfires? How can the Forest Service proactively
    manage our forests to promote wildfire resiliency?
        Mr. Boren. The Forest Service--thank you, Senator, for that
    question and for having me here.
        The Forest Service has many tools available to it to manage
    the forests, to sustain their health and diversity and
    productivity, and I think we should use all of them, in
    particular the tools relating to timber production, which are
    important not only for making the forest more healthy and more
    resilient and fire-resistant but also for revenue to the
    government of the United States and therefore its people, and
    also to be able to use those organizations to take care of some
    of our trails and roads, so it is really important to produce
    timber.
        It is also important to reduce fuel accumulation where
    timber is not the best way to do it or to do it in conjunction
    with that, and I feel like that is something that is really
    well done in coordination with timber producers and other
    groups, and we can look in particular to state forestry
    organizations to see some of the good things that they have
    done.
        Chairman Boozman. Very good. Across the Western United
    States, the checkerboard pattern of land ownership between
    public, private, and tribal landowners creates confusion and
    limits active management of the forest. These limitations can
    negatively impact our national forests. How do you view these
    cross-boundary issues, and how can the Forest Service engage
    with other public and private land managers?
        Mr. Boren. Well, as a private landowner, I know the
    checkerboard nature of the West is difficult because it does
    not matter what you do on your own land in terms of noxious
    weeds reduction and prevention or in terms of fire prevention,
    your neighbors need to be involved. I think there have been
    some really good things that you in Congress have done over the
    past few years along those lines. I know there is an
    interesting checkerboard project for fuels reduction in
    California today with Sierra Pacific Industries and possibly
    with other companies that is a good example of how the public
    and private landowners can get together to deal with fuels
    reduction and other methods of mitigation, and I would think we
    could do a lot more of that.
        Chairman Boozman. Timber sales from national forests
    benefit many stakeholders by mitigating wildfires, preventing
    pests and disease outbreaks, and supporting the economy of
    local communities. Unfortunately, many mills are struggling due
    to fluctuations in the amount of timber from our forests and
    the demand for forest products. What is your view on the value
    of timber sales when it comes to supporting rural economies and
    forest management, and what can the Forest Service play in
    supporting mills, which is with a steady supply of timber?
        Mr. Boren. I have seen firsthand the problems that come
    with lack of timber production and the things that happen to
    rural communities when they lose a timber mill, a lumber mill,
    and I realize that it is very difficult these days to add new
    lumber mills to replace the old ones. One of the reasons is the
    cost is really high. It costs maybe $300 million to build a
    good, successful lumber mill, and nobody is willing to do that
    if they do not have a guarantee of production to be able to
    maintain their mill for a long period of time.
        While it is very important to support our rural communities
    by producing more timber, by selling more timber, if there is
    no one to buy it, if there is no one to process it, you cannot
    have that mill. You cannot build those economies. We need to do
    more than just say we are going to produce more timber. We need
    to encourage long-term contracts with mill owners so that they
    have a reason to believe that they can invest $300 million in a
    mill and make a living out of it over the long term. We need to
    work with other entities, state forests, for example, and
    private forests to help find ways to grow our rural economies
    by providing them a steady supply of timber.
        Chairman Boozman. Senator Klobuchar.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Senator Boozman.
        I think I will start with the staffing issue I raised in
    the opening just with the thousands of employees that have left
    and terminated. There was deferred resignation plans and then
    the White House's direction to federal agencies to plan for
    additional layoffs.
        Mr. Boren, how will you ensure resignations and
    terminations will not affect the ability of the Forest Service
    to prevent and address the dangers of wildfires?
        Mr. Boren. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. That is a very
    important point. We certainly need to have an appropriate level
    of staff to fulfill our mission.
        I have not had an experience with the Forest Service yet
    where I understand what the staffing levels are and how they
    are being applied, but I am very familiar with resource-
    constrained organizations, having worked in one and for one
    that I started for many years, where we started with a very
    small amount of money and never really had enough to do what we
    needed to do. I certainly would not say that that guarantees
    that I will be able to figure it out immediately at the Forest
    Service, but I know that we have to live with the resources
    that we receive, and we will find a way to do that.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. The present budget proposes moving
    wildland fire management outside of the USDA. This is a
    significant responsibility of the Forest Service that would be
    transferred to the Department of Interior, and I understand
    some have questions about the impact on this on managing
    wildfire responses. Could you talk about how this proposal
    could affect the agency's fire mitigation work, like prescribed
    burns, and how you will work with states, tribes, and employees
    and other interested parties as this proposal is considered?
        Mr. Boren. I have questions, as you do. I do not fully
    understand the proposal and how it is intended to work. I do
    have a background through my father and through living in
    Boise, Idaho, and visiting the Interagency Fire Center and
    through being a firefighter and working with incident
    management teams where it is very clear to me that cooperation
    with other agencies and other organizations is the way to fight
    fire. I am sure that if this transfer occurs, the Forest
    Service will still be intimately involved, since that
    organization is responsible for most of the federal forests and
    a large chunk of grasslands and responsible for keeping them in
    good condition.
        Senator Klobuchar. Exactly. Thank you. That is part of why
    I am so worried about this. Thanks for mentioning that because,
    as you acknowledge here, the Forest Service is charged with
    managing forests and watersheds, wildlife habitat, and these
    are responsibilities of the Forest Service. Could you very
    quickly, because I want to get something else, mention what
    policies or practices you would promote to balance these
    multiple uses to ensure the long-term health of forests and
    grasslands?
        Mr. Boren. I will try to be brief. That is a really big
    question, Senator. Multiple use is super important. All of the
    people in America own our forests and grasslands, and they all
    have different ideas about how they should be used, and we need
    to find ways to balance all of the uses--recreation, timber
    production, clean air and water--which sometimes involves non-
    production in areas, oil and gas and forage. There are lots of
    things that we need to balance, and I--you know, we just need
    to always be mindful of everyone else's position.
        I find that when we get into a negotiation--when I get into
    a negotiation frequently, it is important to show--to learn
    what the other person wants and not to worry too much about my
    own personal needs.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Senator Risch mentioned that you
    had, as a landowner and has had some disagreements about
    easements with the Forest Service near your Idaho ranch, and
    could you talk about these disagreements briefly? You can
    follow-up in writing. How will you respond to those that may
    disagree with your positions or decisions, including employees
    or members of the public?
        Mr. Boren. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. That
    is a long conversation, potentially, but----
        Senator Klobuchar. Well, Senator Risch opened the door.
        Mr. Boren. He did.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Boren. He did, and he is aware of some things that have
    happened that have been difficult for me and some that I felt
    were oppressive because I have talked to him about those. I
    think one of the important things to point out is that I do not
    have disputes with the Forest Service. He did use that word,
    but I would disagree with that. As a landowner, I have had
    disagreements from time to time with the Forest Service.
    Typically, they have been very aggressive at the beginning of
    those disagreements. Eventually, when they got the facts and
    when we talked through it and we had reasonable discussions, we
    have always come around to a settlement that works for
    everyone.
        To be very clear about easements, if I may just have a
    moment, I--there is a scenic easement on a ranch that I live
    on, and I have never had a violation or even a suggestion that
    I violated--well, I have had one suggestion, but it was clear
    that it did not happen, and it was retracted. I have not had
    violations of that easement, ever.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Just last, very quickly, will you
    commit to not interfering with and, in fact, recusing yourself
    from any existing or future matters involving properties that
    you, your family members, or your friends own or are affiliated
    with the Forest Service?
        Mr. Boren. Senator, I have had incredibly detailed
    discussions with USDA ethics attorneys, who, by the way, are
    amazing. I will commit to making sure they always know
    everything about anything that could be a conflict of interest
    that I can tell them and to always following their advice.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.
        Chairman Boozman. Senator Hoeven.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thanks for coming in and visiting with me earlier. One of
    the things we talked about was access in the grasslands, and
    that is incredibly important. You have been a rancher all your
    life, although you have been involved in other pursuits as
    well, obviously. You understand, I think, from a rancher's
    perspective. Talk to me about the importance of access for
    those ranchers that are in the grazing associations on the
    grasslands.
        Mr. Boren. Senator, I have been involved in access ideas
    and issues for much of my life. It is a really important part
    of my life for people to have access to their properties and to
    public land to be able to use that land appropriately. There
    are often differences of opinion about how to approach that. My
    opinion is that the Forest Service is the servant of the people
    in managing the assets of the people, known as the national
    forests and grasslands. We need to--we--if I happen to be
    confirmed by you, the Forest Service should always remember
    that it is a service organization for the benefit of the
    people, today's people and future generations, and should be
    careful to consider the importance of access to the forests or
    access to people's grazing leases or grasslands as being of
    paramount importance.
        Senator Hoeven. I am not sure how it works in every state,
    but in our state that means we have to have access to the
    section lines. Will you work with us to make sure that our
    grazers have access to those section lines so they can access
    their herds in the grasslands?
        Mr. Boren. I will commit to working with you to resolve
    that issue. I cannot promise you that I will make sure it
    happens, but I will do my best.
        Senator Hoeven. Okay. You understand the need for access
    and the importance of access through the section lines, and you
    are willing----
        Mr. Boren. It is extremely important, and I agree.
        Senator Hoeven. Okay. Grazing agreements, are you going to
    make sure that grazing agreements for the ranchers out there
    are fair, practical, and workable?
        Mr. Boren. Senator, yes.
        Senator Hoeven. Okay.
        Mr. Boren. I have experience with that, not with forest
    grazing leases, but with state and BLM leases, and I know it is
    very important for both sides to work together.
        Senator Hoeven. How about fire control? I mean, the
    volunteer fire departments have a huge role in the grasslands
    in terms of addressing fire. Most of it is these volunteer
    firemen. Sometimes, though, the Federal Government will come in
    and do prescribed burns when they should not, high winds or
    whatever. Are you willing to work and make sure that that does
    not happen, that the Federal Government is working with the
    Forest Service, is working with the ranchers on the ground when
    it comes to things like controlled burns and other issues?
        Mr. Boren. Senator Hoeven, thank you. That is an area that
    is important to me. I have been involved with a volunteer fire
    department and worked with the Forest Service on fires, and I
    think it is very important to work together. It is very
    important if you are ever going to do a prescribed burn to make
    sure everyone knows about it. The other thing is I think we can
    be a little more careful about how and when we do prescribed
    burns.
        Senator Hoeven. Have you been out in the grasslands and
    seen some of the landscapes where the prairie dogs have taken
    over and it looks like the moon, lunar landscape?
        Mr. Boren. I have, Senator.
        Senator Hoeven. Do you think that is appropriate?
        Mr. Boren. I do not like it. I think there are solutions,
    and we should pursue them.
        Senator Hoeven. Right. Just reasonable solutions like a
    reasonable buffer so that if somebody has private land, they do
    not have a prairie dog infestation that they cannot control.
    That is not fair to individual ranchers or grazers, is it?
        Mr. Boren. I think the--yes, I think that is correct. That
    should happen, and it is not fair. I think that it is the same
    thing for prairie dogs as other infestations like weeds. There
    should be a buffer zone.
        Senator Hoeven. I am glad you mentioned that. Weed control
    is really important. We have got noxious weeds. The Assistant
    Director at the Forest Service--or Deputy Director Chris French
    has been really good about working with us on addressing
    noxious weeds, which is a huge issue. One, I want to commend
    him and ask for your help and your continued support in
    addressing noxious weeds. I cannot imagine why everybody could
    not agree that that just makes common sense.
        Mr. Boren. Senator, thank you. I will offer you my support,
    and I agree it makes common sense. I will say that in my home
    area, the Forest Service does a really good job of encouraging
    ranchers to control the weeds on their own property, and I
    think it is good to have that be reciprocal.
        Senator Hoeven. Yes, you said that just right. Thank you
    very much.
        Chairman Boozman. Senator Bennet.
        Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you, Mr. Boren, for being here. I appreciate it. I
    know you grew up, you mentioned with your dad, working in the
    Forest Service, and I know you have got exposure to the fire
    risk that we are all dealing with. In Colorado, there is huge
    amounts of concern about how dangerous things are.
        I have a lot of concern about what the purpose of the Trump
    Administration's decision to move fire suppression out of the
    Forest Service is meant to accomplish at a moment when the last
    thing we need, I think, is to make it more confusing,
    especially when thinking about the current wildfire season that
    we are facing right now. It was not clear from your answer to
    Senator Klobuchar whether you supported that change, whether
    you--you said you had some questions of your own. I have some
    questions. I wonder what questions you do have about how to do
    it because I am not sure.
        I mean, I think maybe there is a philosophical view out
    there in the world that separating fire suppression from
    mitigation and from wildfire restoration, all that stuff, is a
    good idea philosophically. On the ground, I am not sure,
    especially in a world where people have come to work together
    so well with local communities, volunteer fire departments, the
    work that your dad did at the fire center out there. Could you
    talk a little bit about that in this context and how you are
    going to, when you become in charge of the Forest Service, the
    degree to which you will pay attention to the question of
    whether this is a good idea or not a good idea, I guess.
        Mr. Boren. Senator, thank you. I guess the answer is I am
    certainly willing to look at that idea and consider it, and I
    can understand on my own without getting into details or being
    told by anyone in the Administration yet--and since I am not
    there, I have not been--I can see reasons why it is a good idea
    to have an agency that is focused on fire, where there is a
    person at the head of the agency that can be held fully
    responsible.
        To be clear, responsibility is a good thing. Consequences
    are a good thing. They help shape our decisions. I can see
    where there is maybe some value and hope in that, and that
    might be part of what is driving it. I have to say I just do
    not have the facts yet to really understand all of the reasons
    behind it. However, I will commit to you that managing fire so
    that it does not cause so many health problems and economic
    problems to our country and problems to the forest is very
    important to me. It will be a major focus.
        Senator Bennet. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think it is
    important for the American people and the taxpayer to
    understand that fighting these fires costs six times or nine
    times more than doing the restoration on the front end, doing
    the mitigation on the front end. In that sense, they are
    related questions because I hate to say it, but given the
    conditions, we may find ourselves paying one way or another,
    which is why it is so important, I think, to coordinate this
    work. It is very important I think, for the people that are
    suppressing the fires to be able to understand and give advice
    to the people that are doing the work on the front end as we
    think about how to take care of these landscapes and protect
    the infrastructure and our water infrastructure in particular.
    Can you just respond to that or comment?
        Mr. Boren. Yes, I think that is a really insightful
    comment, Senator. I think it is--you are actually
    underestimating when you say six to nine times because you are
    talking about the tangible costs, and the health costs to
    America of the wildland fires that we have had is ridiculously
    high and overlooked. I can tell you, it is--I have read some of
    the studies on that from university professors and other
    organizations, and the health risk to Americans, especially
    young Americans, is very high. The health risk to our cattle
    herds is very high, and none of that is in your six to nine
    times number. It is a really expensive thing. It is much better
    to be proactive, to take care of our forests so that we do not
    end up with the results of firefighters.
        Here is another thing that is not included in those costs,
    the damage to our watersheds----
        Senator Bennet. Yes, that is what----
        Mr. Boren [continuing]. which is amazingly huge. I see it
    firsthand in our neighborhood because we have had some really
    big fires, we have had pristine wilderness rivers that have not
    recovered in 20 years.
        Senator Bennet. Yes. Well, that is my major concern. Every
    single watershed we have is downstream of these forests. I
    mean, downhill and downstream. That means that every single
    farm and ranch is downstream, every single community, no matter
    how big and no matter how small. I mean, really, the entire
    American West--I do not think it is an exaggeration to say the
    entire American West is at risk. We cannot undo lots of
    decisions that have been made up until this moment, I suppose.
        We are going to have to find a way to work together in an
    urgent way to mitigate the risk that we are facing. I
    completely agree that I think we have got to make important
    investments on the front end to try to mitigate not just the
    cost of fires, but the destruction that they can cause to our
    watersheds because without those watersheds, we do not have a
    Colorado.
        Mr. Boren. I could not agree more, Senator.
        Senator Bennet. Thank you. Thanks.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Boozman. Senator Hyde-Smith.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,
    Mr. Boren, so much for being here today and your willingness to
    serve. I am really glad that Stevie is here today. We do not
    get very many little girls in here, so glad that you are here
    today, Stevie.
        You know, in Mississippi, we call ourselves the ``wood
    basket'' of the Nation. You and I had a really good visit about
    that. We play a critical role in the U.S. timber supply. We are
    uniquely positioned just to meet the growing demands for timber
    and wood products, and we also ship them through our ports, our
    port at the Gulf of America and down in Mississippi River as
    well. Even in challenging times, public and private forests in
    Mississippi have been at the forefront of commonsense forest
    management that helped keep us healthy, working, and
    productive.
        In the next farm bill and through the Fix Our Forests Act,
    which is currently being considered by the Committee, we hope
    to create more opportunities to support this industry that is
    very critical to my state, and to improve the essential tools
    that we need at the Forest Service to increase the pace and
    scale of active forest management in Mississippi and across the
    country.
        If confirmed, how do you plan to approach management within
    the agency, especially when it comes to streamlining projects
    and the approvals, coordinating with state and local partners,
    and making sure decisions keep on-the-ground realities in mind?
        Mr. Boren. Senator Hyde-Smith, one of the things that I
    intend to do is learn more about Mississippi and how you have
    accomplished the things you have accomplished because some of
    the projects that you have been involved in in Mississippi and
    some of the things that are going on in the forests in
    Mississippi are truly revolutionary and should be applied
    throughout the country, and I appreciate your example as a
    state.
        Really, I think what it comes down to is we have large
    tasks ahead of us with the Forest Service in all the areas you
    mentioned, and we need coordination with other entities, both
    state agencies, but also user groups and other organizations
    that want to put skin in the game and be helpful. I think that,
    you know, can be a really, really good thing as we have not all
    the resources that we need.
        One thing we need is help from Senators and
    Representatives. You pointed out that we have a need for
    streamlining what we do.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. Yes.
        Mr. Boren. There is some things that we probably cannot
    streamline without streamlining some of our acts of Congress
    that might need a little tweaking so that they work
    appropriately both for protection of the environment, because
    one of the things that is important to us is long-term health
    of the forests and sustainability of their usability for the
    people, so, you know, that is important, but also being able to
    get the right things done at the right time on the ground. A
    good example of that would be after a fire, it is really
    important to use that timber now rather than wait and try and
    sell it in three or four years when it has no value. There is
    some things you could do to help us with that.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. We will be glad to do it. In
    Mississippi, it is called hard work. Our successes are because
    of hard work and some really good programs with people willing
    to invest and people willing to commit.
        You know, we have been working on one particular issue for
    decades now, and I had the opportunity to mention that to you,
    namely developing the area around Lake Okhissa in Franklin
    County, Mississippi. It is in the Homochitto National Forest.
    It is in southwest Mississippi, beautiful area, so much
    potential, 1,100-acre pristine lake down there. It was built
    in--in the 1990's is when it was built. You can fish all day
    long by yourself almost, and you can ski by yourself. We have
    got to develop something to capitalize on the potential around
    that area.
        In the 2018 Farm Bill, we worked really hard to include a
    provision that transferred 150 acres of the Homochitto National
    Forest land to support economic development. We are beginning
    to see that pay off significantly since that was signed into
    law, and we are very excited about that project, some really
    good announcements just lately on that.
        The goal of this effort is to enable smart, locally-driven
    development that complements the natural resources and
    increases public access that you have mentioned. I look forward
    to continuing working with this Committee in supporting
    economic development in this very, very rural area of
    Mississippi, two small towns. One of them has a red light, the
    other one does not.
        Mr. Boren, please share how you view this kind of targeted
    land transfer for economic development and what kind of support
    the Forest Service could provide to ensure the success of this
    project, and both for the community and maintaining stewardship
    of the surrounding Homochitto National Forest lands.
        Mr. Boren. Thank you for the opportunity to address that,
    Senator. I have to correct you from my personal point of view,
    though, which is I do not want to fish by myself when I have
    got nine grandkids that like to fish.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Boren. It is nice to have some friends, even if you
    have to create them.
        In terms of your project at Lake Okhissa, I think it is
    brilliant. I think it is replicable. I think it is the kind of
    thing that we need to try to do throughout our forests to
    increase access and use of the forests. I do not know that we
    would have to do it just the way you did it, but the idea is
    really important, to give people opportunities to benefit from
    the use of the forests. I look forward to--I mentioned to your
    staff that I would love to learn more about that project, and I
    mean it. I look forward to coming to your office and meeting
    with them and learning how we can replicate that elsewhere.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. I would love for you to come to
    Mississippi, and I will take you to Lake Okhissa.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Boren. Well, as long as I do not have to land at the--
    what did you call it? The Brookdale Triangle? Because that is a
    scary place from what I hear. I am happy to come.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Hyde-Smith. We will leave that right there. Thank
    you.
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman Boozman. Well, thank you again for appearing
    before the Committee, Mr. Boren, and to our Committee Members
    for their participation in today's important hearing, again, as
    always, to our staffs who do so much work getting these things
    ready.
        The record will remain open for two business days. Today's
    hearing is now adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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                             QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

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