    [Senate Hearing 119-97]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                           S. Hrg. 119-97

                   BEYOND THE TRAILHEAD: SUPPORTING OUTDOOR
                    RECREATION IN AN UNCERTAIN ECONOMY
    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                              AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                                     OF THE

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  MAY 30, 2025

                                   __________

          Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and
                                Entrepreneurship

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                   __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    60-615                     WASHINGTON : 2026
    =======================================================================

                COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                  ----------

                            JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair
                EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    RAND PAUL, Kentucky                  JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
    TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
    TODD YOUNG, Indiana                  CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    TED BUDD, North Carolina             JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
    JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
    JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
    JON HUSTED, Ohio
                    Meredith West, Republican Staff Director
                     Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                  MAY 30, 2025
                               Opening Statements

                                                                       Page
    John W. Hickenlooper, U.S. Senator from Colorado.................     1

                                   Witnesses

    Mr. Travis Campbell, CEO, Eagle Creek, Steamboat Springs, CO.....     4
        Prepared statement...........................................     7
    Mr. Mike Mojica, Founder, Outdoor Element, Englewood, CO.........     9
        Prepared statement...........................................    11
    Mr. Trent Bush, Founder and CEO, ARTILECT Studio, Boulder, CO....    13
        Prepared statement...........................................    15

                        BEYOND THE TRAILHEAD: SUPPORTING
                            OUTDOOR RECREATION IN AN
                               UNCERTAIN ECONOMY

                                  ----------

                              FRIDAY, MAY 30, 2025

                          United States Senate,
                            Committee on Small Business
                                          and Entrepreneurship,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:11 p.m., in
    Lanny and Sharon Martin Family Foundation Room, History
    Colorado Center, Hon. John Hickenlooper, presiding.
        Present: Senator Hickenlooper [presiding].

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HICKENLOOPER

        Senator Hickenlooper. We've now officially gaveled in.
    Welcome, all of you. I appreciate you to come and join us for
    this field hearing for the Committee on Small Business and
    Entrepreneurship, basically, about the challenges and
    opportunities that are facing entrepreneurs and small
    businesses in the outdoor recreation industry.
        Before we get started, I want to thank History Colorado for
    this amazing space, this amazing building, and all that they do
    to make sure we understand where we're coming from. And
    actually, each of these entrepreneurs has origin stories, and
    I'm sure we'll hear a lot of that today. Understanding how we
    got to where we are, and how we should take facts and use
    evidence to make sure our future is better, is a key part of
    what these hearings are all about.
        I'd like to also give thanks to Chair Joni Ernst, Senator
    Ernst from Iowa, and Ranking Member Markey. Neither of them
    could be here, but they signed off on this, and are supportive
    of making sure that we take the Small Business and
    Entrepreneurship Committee out into the country, and get all
    the information we can.
        Also want to talk to committee staff for the Small Business
    Entrepreneurship Subcommittee, because they do the real work
    and my own staff as well, who you guys have met, and spent
    countless hours putting all this together. So, the committee
    staff, our staff, it's a great partnership.
        I've always been proud to represent small businesses in
    Colorado. Up and down Main Street, we've had a wonderful--this
    process of creating ecosystem that welcomes and celebrates
    entrepreneurship, is something that we were very intentional
    about, starting 20 years ago. And there are literally thousands
    of people that own that, that have put time and effort and
    created businesses, that prove that this not just the backbone
    of our country, but it is the heart, it is the lungs, it is the
    digestive system--I'll cut it off. [Laughter.]
        Anyway, I came of age in small business. I started the
    first brew pub in Colorado, my gosh, 1986. I don't even want to
    say how old that is, that's almost 40 years ago. I guess it was
    88 we finally got it open, it took me two years to open the
    thing.
        I understand a lot of the challenges that these guys are
    facing. We were just in there talking about some of the
    challenges that we're going to go over today. I lived a lot of
    that; the anxiety that envelops real challenges when you're in
    small business. And you know that each decision is not the last
    decision, it's a decision that's going to either make things a
    little better or maybe a little worse, if you don't get the
    right decision, and you don't have time to sit and think about
    it. You've got to keep making the decision, keep moving your
    business forward.
        Our small businesses are economic boosters to our rural
    communities, to our urban communities, our suburban
    communities. They improve healthcare, they drive innovation,
    they create jobs, they improve our education system.
        Here in Colorado, if you just look at the outdoor
    recreation industry, we're talking in excess of $17 billion of
    the state's, GDP. And there are some people that think that's
    conservative. We're in a time now with this notion of tariffs,
    where I think those policies threaten many of our small
    businesses, not all, but many, many of our small businesses.
        And I think the more we can hear those stories, and
    recognize you know--I've talked to people in the trade office
    and I've talked to other Republican Senators, I'm not sure I've
    ever seen a place where the types of tariffs that have been
    discussed, were effective. These large mass scale tariffs that
    have been contemplated, not just for China, but even for NATO--
    our allies. This is the kind of tariff environment that we saw
    when I was a kid in the '60s and '70s. South American
    countries, other developing countries, used similar tariffs to
    try and protect--they wanted to limit their imports, and they
    wanted to push forward and hope to stimulate their own
    indigenous industry, and it never worked.
        They ended up with spiraling inflation and interest rates.
    Basically, there was a freezing that took place in their entire
    economy. So as their economy stagnated, the value of their
    currency, whatever it was, would diminish. And I think we face
    the same things here. We're going to look at weakening the
    dollar. And at the same time, all the uncertainty is, this
    making people hesitate and, in many cases, put off any
    significant decision. They won't commit to a purchase or a new
    project because of all the uncertainty.
        I think these guys, all small businesses, want to focus on
    serving their customers. But having to navigate the chaos we
    see right now is a real challenge. And I think the tariffs are
    a blunt instrument. I understand where they're coming from, but
    I think there are better ways we can deal with this. Certainly,
    the people that are going to elegant dinners in Mar-a-Lago or
    anywhere, this isn't as much an issue for them. But many small
    businesses are really caught up in this storm and struggling to
    survive.
        Along with my Senate colleagues, we introduced the Small
    Business Liberation Act, which would exempt small businesses
    like these from these reckless tariffs. Again, we've been
    pushed back on that and on and so many things.
        Last week, we had Kelly Loeffler, who's the Administrator
    for the Small Business Administration. She was talking about
    how the tariffs really were good news for small businesses. But
    I think I've been going around the state this whole week, and
    I've talked to a dozen small businesses and haven't heard
    anyone say that yet, that they look at this as any kind of a
    benefit.
        The recent CNBC survey, only 30 percent of our small
    business owners believe our economy's heading in the right
    direction. 70 percent felt that our economy is heading towards
    a recession. They think the country is going the wrong
    direction. We haven't seen pessimism like this since COVID,
    which was a global pandemic, obviously. But I think that we are
    on the precipice of a recession, and it could be a serious
    recession. And the losses we will all endure will be
    structural, in other words, they will have a long tail.
        Obviously, tariffs aren't the only challenges these guys
    face. Many of the components of this bill that was passed in
    the house, the budget bill, are also going to be structurally
    challenging. There's a plan in there, it was pulled out, but
    once they put something in, they pulled it out of this budget
    bill, but it'll probably find its way back into something else.
    But they had a plan to sell hundreds of thousands of acres of
    public land. And once you start that, it's hard to say where
    it's going to go, but it's certainly not going to go in a good
    direction.
        In that budget, it's hard not to see labor shortages.
    They're reducing or eliminating a lot of the money used to
    address climate change. It is a challenging time. Anyway, I'm
    excited to be joined by these guys, if I'm any good, which is
    debatable, but any good at this senate business, I'm going to
    hopefully leave this today on an upbeat.
        Because it took me two years to raise the money when I
    first started Wynkoop, I couldn't get my own mother to invest.
    [Laughter.]
        But I always said, sometimes I'd have to get out of bed and
    paint a smile on my face. I'd have to look in the mirror and
    say, all right, let's go get them, because I've never succeeded
    at anything that mattered, if it was really challenging, by
    thinking I couldn't do it, or by thinking it would look like,
    you know, it wasn't going to happen.
        I loved talking to these guys for 20 minutes before we
    started this. This panel of witnesses embodies that
    determination and commitment that it takes for small businesses
    to succeed.
        Our first witness is Travis Campbell. He's the owner and
    CEO of Eagle Creek, an adventure travel gear company that's
    based in Steamboat Springs. It's a little unfair that he gets
    to live in Steamboat Springs, and most of us don't. Prior to
    his time at Eagle Creek, Mr. Campbell spent time at VF, working
    at North Face and Smart Wall.
        He's got a Bachelor's of Science in Civil Engineering from
    Duke University, MBA from Northwestern. Which is where my wife
    also went, to Duke. She did not study engineering, but she also
    got an MBA from Northwestern.
        Mr. Campbell. Fantastic.
        Senator Hickenlooper. What a scary world. [Laughter.]
        Next up, we have Mr. Mike Mojica, founder of Outdoor
    Element, an adventure survival gear business based in
    Englewood. Mr. Mojica spent the bulk of his career as a
    mechanical engineer in aerospace, real engineer, I'm just
    kidding, this is still real engineering. But he was a
    mechanical engineer, before turning his small business dream
    into a reality. And he had older degree, an engineering degree
    from the University of Texas at Arlington.
        And then, rounding out the group is Trent Bush, founder and
    co-CEO of ARTILECT Studios, based here in Boulder. Mr. Bush
    comes from a family of outdoor recreation entrepreneurs, and
    has served in previous roles at Mountain Hardware, Black
    Diamond Equipment, and Burton Snowboards. He has a degree from
    the University of Colorado Boulder and started his first
    business while a student in Boulder High School. I mean, is it
    possible that boulder's always been a hotbed of
    entrepreneurship? I think it is.
        So, we'll start, with each one just about five minutes to
    make your opening statement. We'll start with Mr. Campbell, and
    I'll turn it over for five minutes for your opening remarks.

     STATEMENT OF MR. TRAVIS CAMPBELL, CEO, EAGLE CREEK STEAMBOAT
                           SPRINGS, COLORADO.

        Mr. Campbell. Thank you, Senator Hickenlooper. Appreciate
    the opportunity to be here to testify today about the impacts
    of the current trade and tariff policy on the outdoor
    recreation economy.
        As you said, my name's Travis Campbell. I'm the owner and
    CEO of Eagle Creek, a small business. I'm based in Steamboat
    Springs. This is our 50th anniversary as a business. My wife
    and I, and a few others have been the owner of this business
    for about four years now. As mentioned, we design and sell
    adventure travel gear. We make most of our product primarily in
    Indonesia, and then we sell it all over the world.
        We're the kind of small business that America should be
    proud of; we pay our taxes, we comply fully with our duties and
    regulations, we strive to be a responsible employer, a
    committed partner to our customers, and a steward of the
    planet.
        Yet in the wake of the newly announced tariffs or recently
    announced tariffs, it feels as though our country is
    systematically working against businesses like ours, raising
    our cost dramatically while fueling consumer anxiety that
    suppresses demand. And I'll make note that that demand is
    global demand, not just demand in the U.S.
        Eagle Creek in the vast majority of the $1.2 trillion
    outdoor industry, which is responsible for 5 million American
    jobs, depends on a complex global supply chain to manufacture
    the highly technical products that we sell. These goods require
    years of skill and specialization to produce and those
    capabilities do not exist in the U.S., at any level of scale
    required to make the goods that we produce. Building that
    capacity would take domestically years, if it were even
    possible to do.
        When the reciprocal tariffs were announced on April 2nd, we
    had as a business, we had about $1.8 million of purchase orders
    outstanding, due to ship into the U.S. in the next four months.
    Under our normal processes, we would pay about $260,000 in
    traditional duties and tariffs on that. And that cost is built
    into our business model that's existed for a while.
        When we did the math on the incremental tariffs, the new
    bill would be an additional $580,000. And so, if for a business
    our size, we don't have $580,000 sitting in our bank account
    just waiting to pay that extra. And so that's a kind of shock
    that is simply unsustainable for a business like us. What we
    say is, in our 50th year of operations, we could be possibly
    put out of business through these kind of ill-conceived tariff
    plans.
        Eagle Creek immediately took dramatic steps to stay afloat.
    We froze salary increases that we had just implemented to our
    teams. We halted the hiring of two really exceptional new
    people that we planned to bring on board. We cut spending
    across the board--so on vendors, on travel, on investments that
    we were making in growing our business this year. We've revised
    our sales forecast significantly lower for the year. So back to
    that global consumer decline in demand that we see going on.
    And so, when you add that all up; lower wages, fewer jobs, and
    less spending in the economy, I don't think that's what we're
    aiming for.
        So, the current pause in tariff implementation does give us
    some breathing room. But I would say only barely. And I'll go a
    little off script here and say, this week there was a court
    injunction, I'll say around the tariffs that have changed the
    scenario again since I submitted my testimony three days ago.
    And so, I find it remarkable that today I actually have no idea
    what the tariffs are on my goods. And so, as a small business,
    to have no idea what primary input costs look like in your
    business, is terrifying and chaotic.
        So, the uncertainty and instability continue to wreak havoc
    on our business. I think it's important to note it's wreaking
    havoc on our people. Like our teams are tired. You know, this
    is a stressful environment. We're asking a lot out of people to
    essentially plan and replan our business, what feels like
    almost daily. And so, it's a constant struggle to not have a
    view on what's going to happen and either tomorrow or let's
    call it July 9th.
        So, it's important to understand that our outdoor products
    are not interchangeable with general consumer goods. These are
    technical complex items built to withstand extreme conditions.
    There's very little of U.S. manufacturing to support that. Yet
    technical goods are among the most heavily taxed imports we
    bring into the U.S. So, the trade weighted duty average for
    outdoor gear is over 14 percent, compared to just 2.7 percent
    for other consumer goods. Products like waterproof backpacks
    and footwear are especially hard hit.
        Historically, the outdoor industry has had bipartisan,
    congressionally-approved tools like the Generalized System of
    Preferences, GSP, and the Miscellaneous Tariff Bills, MTB, to
    provide relief for products that aren't made in the U.S. But
    both programs expired at the end of 2020.
        Since then, the outdoor industry has paid over $2 billion
    in duties that were not accounted for when sourcing decisions
    were made years ago. Eagle Creek alone has paid over $4 million
    in additional tariffs since 2020. If we had that $4 million
    back, we would be in a much better position to weather this
    current trade storm.
        This is not just a matter of cost--it's about
    predictability in our businesses. Our production cycles last
    summer between 12 and 24 months, and so right now we're in the
    process of planning our spring 27 season. So, if you think
    about that, it takes a long time to change suppliers, to shift
    operations. You need a lot of capital to make that happen, and
    you need certainty to make that happen. We can't adapt
    overnight to rapidly changing policy.
        So let me be clear, U.S. importers pay the taxes on
    tariffs. Those taxes are not paid by foreign countries. They're
    paid by small businesses like ours. And with many businesses
    still recovering from COVID-era disruptions, we simply did not
    have the financial cushion to absorb these shocks.
        So, what are our options? We can go to our supply chain
    partners and ask for discounts, which we've done. Generally, if
    you could get a 10 percent discount out of a factory, you'd be
    feeling really great about that. At the end of the day, that
    makes a very small dent in the incremental tariff bills that
    we're dealing with.
        Our other option is to increase prices to our consumers,
    which if anybody's studied economics, when you raise prices,
    demand goes down traditionally. And so, it becomes this vicious
    cycle and it's not ultimately a sustainable path forward for
    anyone in this industry.
        So, I'm here today to ask for leadership. Small businesses
    like mine cannot fix this alone. We need long-term stable trade
    policies that recognize the realities of modern supply chains,
    not punitive tariffs, and uncertainties. We need programs like
    GSP and MTB restored, to give businesses like ours the tools to
    survive and grow.
        The outdoor industry stands ready to work with the
    committee, with the Senate, Congress. Our company is prepared
    to be part of the solution. But let me be very clear, what's
    happening right now is not working. And thank you for your
    time. Appreciate the time and happy to answer any questions
    when the time comes.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Campbell follows.]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Hickenlooper. Great. I appreciate that, and thank
    you. You summed it up pretty nicely. Now we'll hear from Mike
    Mojica. Your five minutes begins.

        STATEMENT OF MR. MIKE MOJICA, FOUNDER, OUTDOOR ELEMENT,
                          ENGLEWOOD, COLORADO

        Mr. Mojica. Senator Hickenlooper and distinguished guest
    and friends and family, thank you for this opportunity to speak
    with you today.
        Again, my name's Mike Mojica. I was born on an Army base in
    Nurnberg, Germany where I saw my father salute, all shades of
    skin and all shades of skin salute him back. And that imagery
    has always stuck with me my entire life. It taught me what this
    great country is all about unity, opportunity, and the
    confidence to chase dreams with grit and courage. This country,
    while not perfect, has long inspired dreamers and doers, and I
    consider myself one of them.
        By education, I'm a mechanical engineer, as you mentioned.
    For years, I had the honor of designing for the U.S. Army and
    the Air Force. In 2012, I had the opportunity of moving to
    Colorado, where I rediscovered the outdoors, and I started
    something on the side; Outdoor Element. My native name is
    Bodaway, which means fire maker. And that sparked turned into a
    mission-creating rugged, innovative gear that helps people
    explore with confidence themed around fire.
        About seven and a half years ago I left my stable job in
    aerospace to go all in with Outdoor Element. I've gone through
    accelerator programs with Moosejaw and REI. I've secured 10
    patents, I have a few pending, and we just came off our best
    year ever. And then a couple of months ago happened. Overnight
    tariffs on our core products jumped to 145 percent. That's not
    a misstatement. What felt like a mood swing for my commander-
    in-chief now feels like a knife in the back.
        What I thought was an approachable path to the American
    dream has suddenly turned into quicksand. We are now down to 30
    percent additional tariffs, 10 for reciprocal and 20 for
    fentanyl--fentanyl, I'm paying the price for a crime I did not
    commit. I'm just here in my quicksand drowning a little slower.
        We had to pause production, tell our factories to simply
    hold the goods and not ship them. And what I am shipping is to
    fulfill wholesale pre-orders. I'm doing little or no profit.
    I'm doing it to keep relationships alive. I've lost a wholesale
    account, a key wholesale account right now, because we had
    slightly increased our prices.
        I had to lay off some team members. I've asked others to
    work less hours. My wife now works for free, indefinitely. My
    kids who are here today, they help me pack out orders. And I
    don't mean this to be a pity party or pity story. I'm here not
    to scream or yell. In fact, my spiritual mentor said, ``Anger,
    never persuades. Hostility builds no one and contention never
    leads to inspired solutions.'' So, I'm here for a plea of
    conversation of clarity. Let's come together. Let's be
    inspired.
        I understand that we operate in a global economy. It's
    complex, but small businesses like mine cannot plan for success
    when the rules change overnight, again and again without
    warning, without clear strategy or line of communication.
        This country's supposed to build and promote small
    businesses and not crush them. I'm not asking for a handout;
    I'm asking for a plan. I'm asking for transparency that
    inspires confidence. Chairman Mike Crapo recently said, ``Trade
    is supposed to provide businesses with the certainty we need to
    make long-term investments to drive growth.'' And I couldn't
    agree more. Today, that certainty it's missing. I'm no longer
    thriving. I'm working on surviving.
        In the past, I've tried to reach out to leadership at USTR
    doing the 301 punitive tariffs, and it just fell in deaf ears.
    I'd welcome a conversation from Ambassador Jamieson Greer.
    Let's forge a path that's smarter together. One that doesn't
    treat small businesses as collateral damage, but rather invites
    the small businesses as an important part of the economic
    equation, part of the economic solution.
        Ambassador Greer also said recently that he wants what's
    best for America. My question is, what part of America? Do I
    need to be building microchips or being in the auto industry to
    matter? The acts of my government indicate that I currently
    don't matter.
        Right now, my food, my fuel, shelter, cost a little bit
    more. Profit margin has gone down and that's just not
    sustainable. Not for me, not for hundreds of other outdoor
    small brands facing the same uncertainty.
        Now, I've begun to shift production outside of China, and
    where we can we proudly build here in the U.S., like our newest
    fire-starting product, Fiber Light. But that's a journey, not a
    switch, that anyone can just flip on.
        And I also believe this, that international commerce
    promotes peace. It's not a new idea. In the 18 hundreds French
    economist Frederic Bastiat, he said this, ``If goods don't
    cross borders, soldiers will.'' Phil Knight echoed this same
    idea in his memoir saying that Nike would rather build boots in
    Vietnam than see combat boots there. And I agree. So, for every
    international purchase order that we place, that's my vote for
    peace and partnership, not conflict. Collaboration over
    conflict is where I stand. So, let's use our forum policy to
    foster a bridge that we've spent decades building.
        Outdoor Element was born from a spark--literally. We
    designed survival and adventure gear themed around fire that
    helps people explore the great outdoors with confidence. But
    behind every piece of gear are real people, families, teams,
    communities, friends.
        If you are a believer in our gear, thank you. If you light
    fires on cold nights with our firebiners or a scout feather
    knife or simply believe in small business, you are part of my
    equation, you are part of my story. So, thank you for that.
        To this committee, please don't forget or undermine small
    scrappy companies who form the backbone of America. Let's build
    our futures one spark at a time and keep the fire going. Thank
    you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Mojica follows.]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Hickenlooper. Well said, well said. Mr. Bush,
    you're up.

       STATEMENT OF MR. TRENT BUSH, FOUNDER AND CO-CEO, ARTILECT
                       STUDIO, BOULDER, COLORADO

        Mr. Bush. Great. Thank you, Senator Hickenlooper. My name
    is Trent Bush, and my life has revolved around Colorado outdoor
    industry since my childhood. Growing up, my dad was one of the
    first employees at Boulder-based Frostline Kids, which was an
    innovative outdoor brand that started in the '60s and lasted
    through the '70s and early '80s.
        Frostline enabled countless American families, from diverse
    economic backgrounds, to enjoy the outdoors affordably, making
    their jackets, sleeping bags, tents, and packs at home, since
    back then most American households actually had sewing machines
    and knew how to use them.
        Unfortunately, market conditions dramatically shifted in
    the early '80s and Frostline, along with other Boulder-based
    innovators like Holubar, Gerry, and Altra, became obsolete as
    competitors leveraged overseas manufacturing to deliver
    finished products, that significantly lower costs with no
    sewing necessary.
        In the mid-80s, I started my own career at Wave Rave, which
    was a really small snowboard shop in Boulder where I'm from.
    Although we initially produced our own jackets and pants
    locally, our limitations started to become apparent when
    competing brands began to source their products overseas,
    bringing a new level of quality and performance that we
    couldn't achieve ourselves.
        At Boulder High in 1989, my brother, a friend, and I
    decided to launch our own brand called Twist. We were
    determined to produce domestically at that time because even
    though it was harder, that's what we believed in, and that's
    what we knew from my prior generation. We soon outgrew
    Colorado's limited capabilities and moved to the Bay Area
    aiming to utilize factories abandoned by large American outdoor
    brands that were already offshoring at that time.
        At just a few million dollars in sales, Twist lacked the
    scale to sustain these factories, and they quickly shuttered,
    forcing us to try to move our goods to Los Angeles factories,
    which were more accustomed to producing Halloween costumes and
    denim jeans, rather than technical outerwear.
        Without the necessary specialized equipment or solar sewers
    available, our products faced severe quality issues. The
    waterproof coating failed on our U.S. sourced fabrics, snaps
    fell off, the seams leaked, and even back then, the know-how
    had already moved on. Ultimately, survival forced us to move
    our manufacturing overseas, but it was too little, too late,
    and we ended up pretty much losing everything at that point.
    And that was way back in the nineties. US-Based performance
    apparel manufacturing capabilities have only really decreased
    since that time. Definitely not increased.
        I know this is true because after Twist, the past 30 years
    of my career have evolved around senior roles and design and
    development, for global performance brands, as mentioned, like
    Burton Spyder, Oakley, Outdoor Research, Mountain Hardware,
    Black Diamond Equipment, and my most recent startup, ARTILECT.
        At each of these brands, we actually did make sincere
    efforts and attempts to reshore partial production, but most of
    those have actually ended in costly failures with only basic
    products like t-shirts, socks, those kinds of things being
    successful.
        Today at ARTILECT, we create innovative high performance
    merino wool apparel in Vietnam, because domestic production
    remains impossible due to the lack of merino sheep, specialized
    yarns equipment and infrastructure.
        And because of those reasons, and even with the interest of
    U.S. military, we can't comply with the Berry Amendment because
    the necessary domestic supply chain simply doesn't exist, and
    it leaves our brand without a valuable business opportunity,
    and it actually leaves our military with substandard equipment.
        While the post COVID outdoor market has already been harder
    than any that I've ever faced in my entire career, our entire
    industry faces new unprecedented crisis, amplified by recent
    U.S. tariff policies. For a small wholesale-focused business
    like ours, these tariffs dramatically inflate landed product
    costs, forcing us to either to raise retail prices or accept
    significantly diminished margins, or most likely both.
        Our retail partners can't absorb these price increases
    without reducing their orders significantly, and their
    customers are unable to pay more, endangering both their own
    businesses and ours at the same time.
        Additionally, these tariffs severely undermine ongoing
    industry efforts towards greater equity and inclusion, making
    outdoor participation much more expensive and illusive.
        Even if Tuesday's ruling against the tariff stands, the
    uncertainty of U.S. trade policies have also sparked anti-
    American sentiment in our foreign markets, causing outright
    rejection of American brands, and severely damaging our global
    competitiveness.
        This is all super hard for me personally. I held onto
    producing in the U.S. as long as I possibly could, and I feel
    I've done everything I was asked to do since, including moving
    production out of China six years ago. Now, even those
    staggeringly high tariffs outside China may force my business
    to close. This just isn't the American dream I believed in, and
    I've tried so hard over all those years to achieve. The rules
    keep changing and we just can't keep up.
        So, I respectfully urge Congress to reconsider these
    policies that cripple small outdoor businesses like mine,
    recognizing the unintended damage they're causing. Thank you
    sincerely for your time, consideration, and thoughtful
    understanding. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Bush follows.]
        [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, all three of you. I think
    those are so distinct and yet compelling and some of the
    calculus you have to use, and no matter how good you are at
    your business, if you have to raise your prices three or 4
    percent, that doesn't mean you're going to lose three or 4
    percent of sales. You don't know what you're going to lose, at
    what point that people feel they can't afford what you're
    selling. And you can raise your prices 3 percent and lose 10
    percent of your sales. And I think I heard variations of that
    through each of you.
        I'm going to go back up and forth and ask a bunch of
    questions. I'll start with you Trent, just because you spoke
    last. You've obviously had quite a career across a number of
    apparel brands. You've obviously been diligently working
    towards American Made in every way you could. And I think as
    you said, we share that desire to get all America, but there's
    no switch that you can flip. It really is a journey, as one of
    you said.
        You said there's a lack of merino wool supply, is one thing
    in terms of necessary machinery available. Maybe go a little
    further in detail, the infrastructure, labor, technology, if
    you want to bring all of your manufacturing state side. I mean,
    you can summarize it. You don't go through too much of the
    details. If you ask a true entrepreneur a question like this,
    you could be here for an hour. But what would that do? Just
    kind of run through that. What would that do to the cost for
    your consumer?
        Mr. Bush. Well, first of all, it wouldn't be possible even
    if I wanted to. Okay. The Merino sheep in meaningful quantities
    only grow in the Merino band, which is Australia, New Zealand,
    South Africa, Argentina. There's a certain latitude where
    Merino can be raised in meaningful numbers.
        Machinery wise, and we were actually joking, sort of in the
    green room before, that there's only one in Denver as far as I
    know. There's only one Ralph sewing machine. I don't know if
    they're still even here, but there's one place you can actually
    buy sewing machines, industrial sewing machines.
        Senator Hickenlooper. That's for the whole region?
        Mr. Bush. That's for the whole region, kind of for the
    mountain west. And they're the only people that can actually
    even service them. And it's not just about, you know, having
    people who know what they're doing, people who know how to sew,
    and people who know how to sew at a very high level. To be
    efficient, it means having the machinery, it means having the
    trajectory of innovation in the machinery side. That again, all
    that left the U.S. decades ago.
        And so, you know, not to go into every little detail, it
    actually isn't possible. And that's kind of what I mentioned
    with the military thing. We were working with the U.S. 10
    special forces and they really liked our product and that kind
    of thing, but we can't be very compliant. And our technology,
    especially with the yarns that we use, a process called New
    Yarn, those machines do not exist in the U.S. to even make the
    yarns. So even if we had the rest of them, the machines don't
    exist here. So, it's a losing equation.
        I think the last thing I would say is, we can do a much
    better job as a business, when you talk two or 3 percent raise,
    we're talking 20 or 30 percent raise in most cases, from a cost
    perspective. And that's all money that we'd literally pay to
    nobody, right? Or to our government, right?
        I would rather spend every one of those dollars on a high
    paying job here in the U.S., because all of those dollars will
    go to marketing, they'll go to sales, they'll go to
    distribution, all the things that we need to support, instead
    of paying a low wage, so sewing job, I think that's a much
    better way to spend those dollars, right?
        Senator Hickenlooper. And that 10 or 20 percent largely at
    least in this situation, is going to go--some chunk of it will
    go to tax breaks for very, very wealthy people, many of whom
    don't want the tax breaks. That's the one thing that never
    really comes out. I've talked to a dozen, or maybe not quite a
    dozen, but very wealthy people in Colorado and asked them about
    these budgets in the tax cut. Most of them go, you know, you're
    really wealthy, a couple hundred thousand dollars, which sounds
    enormous to the rest of us. They're like, no, not if that's
    going to hurt people like yourselves.
        Mr. Mojica, I understand exactly what, as you were
    describing that small business anxiety and challenge to juggle
    all the problems. And one thing I remember vividly was when you
    have something inserted into your world that demands a certain
    amount of your attention, everything else gets diminished. In
    other words, you're not doing everything else that you are
    accustomed to doing in order to grow and thrive.
        So as is, tariffs have rendered your business uncertain in
    the short term. How have you found, or have you been able to
    find enough time, to do the growth and to thrive as you want?
    How much of your time, I guess as a percentage is what I'm
    asking, are you having put towards navigating this intrusion
    that the tariffs are creating for your business?
        Mr. Mojica. Great question. I don't know if I can give you
    exact percentage, but I know that there's been lots of
    sleepless nights and just staying in the office wondering like,
    how am I going to make the ends meet? Gratefully, I have an
    awesome support family that comes in and starts packing
    packages and learning different parts of the business. I didn't
    know I needed to be a tariff expert when I started this
    business. [Laughter.]
        But it's definitely something we learned to navigate. I'll
    say that all of us here, I think we, the beauty of America is
    we get to choose our own hard, right? And it's like working an
    eight to five is hard. But I chose this hard, and I'm willing
    to accept the obstacles that comes with it. Now, I feel like
    this is kind of a curve ball that I didn't expect to see, and
    so I'm trying to learn how to navigate.
        I'm a part of a couple of entrepreneurial support
    networking groups, and I found that it's like reaching out and
    sometimes we share each other's pity party just to get it off
    our chest. Like, okay, it's time to move on. But it's been a
    struggle, the struggles are real. If I had to guess, probably
    30 percent of my time is just trying to understand, reading
    articles about like, what could happen next, what's the
    ramification?
        I was reaching out to a broker yesterday, trying to figure
    out what the taxes or the tariffs are. I have something coming
    in right now and I'm like, hey, what am I paying? I don't know.
    You know, like, what does this mean? And so, it's the
    uncertainty. It's hard to create a business plan around when
    you have a big ball of uncertainty. And that's what's driving
    me crazy. That's why I want a plan that, just inspires like, we
    have something stable, let's move forward. And what I don't see
    is anything stable. It's a disaster.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Yes. Well, and that's, so much of
    small business is based on assumptions. And you've got to have
    a fairly good set of assumptions to make sure that the things
    you don't know, like, what are my sales going to be, is there
    going to be some weather event or something that's going to
    come out of the blue? But when almost everything is up in the
    air, that I think you all three of you talked to that that
    point.
        Mr. Campbell, I want to switch gears for just a minute.
    Obviously, there's so many threats that are facing the outdoor
    recreation industry right now. We're seeing drastic cuts to
    pretty much every federal enterprise that manages our public
    lands. And these are large unsustainable cuts. I don't think
    you can argue that.
        And whether you're talking about national parks or national
    forests and all those recreational opportunities, this
    transition away from responsibility that the federal government
    has historically always exhibited around our public lands, I
    see as a genuine threat.
        They're even talking about taking some of our smaller
    national parks and turning them over to states, without a plan,
    without any guidelines or accountability. Obviously, they've
    fired or forced out thousands of employees from, not just the
    National Park Service in our parks, and they're all going to be
    down 10, 20 percent. Who knows what the bathroom conditions
    will be. Although I think everyone should still go to our
    National Parks. You need that time and a beautiful place to get
    restored these days.
        But U.S. Forest Service, the campgrounds, the fish, and
    wildlife, I mean, how we take care of our habitats in the
    original budget bill that was taken out, but there was a part
    of that bill that was going to sell off over 500,000 acres of
    public lands mostly in Nevada but also in Utah.
        And that should be sobering, because once you begin that
    process, you've taken an absolutely in violent line that we've
    never crossed, of selling off, letting the executive branch
    sell off public lands. And suddenly that line no longer exists
    and is blurred.
        So, I want to--because your business really does directly
    bear on this, but also your business and the industry as a
    whole. How dependent are you on safe, accessible, protected
    public lands?
        Mr. Campbell. Yeah, I mean, I would say wholly dependent.
    You know, as the outdoor industry, I can't speak for everyone,
    but we think of public lands as the core infrastructure of our
    business, in the same way that like, machines might be the
    infrastructure of a steel manufacturer, public lands are the
    infrastructure of the outdoor industry.
        And so, you know, from my lens, outdoor industry has been
    growing, thriving for years. The demands on our public lands
    have been increasing. We actually have way more demand than we
    have supply today of public lands. So, to me, it's actually
    sort of antithetical, right? We should be buying more public
    lands because there's the demand to justify that as a country.
    And frankly, more public lands or better maintained public
    lands, either of those would be an investment in the health of
    this industry.
        And I already said in my testimony, $1.2 trillion of
    economic activity for the country, 500 million U.S. jobs, like
    you know, I'm a business person. If I see that kind of growth
    and opportunity in energy, I want to invest behind that, not
    tear it down and sell it off.
        And so, there's no question that even the conversation
    about diminished staffing in the parks or BLM campgrounds being
    closed, are going to decrease demand. You know, a big part of
    our international tourism, bringing it back to my business
    which is dependent on travel, and global travel, like lots of
    people come from outside the U.S. specifically to visit our
    national parks and our public spaces.
        And the quality of the experience they have in doing that
    directly relates to whether people are going to come the next
    time and how much money they're going to spend while they're
    here. And so, from my lens again, very much shooting ourselves
    in the foot in terms of economic activity.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Yeah, I'm sure each would've a
    version of that same response. Mr. Bush, I'll come back to you,
    Trent. I call him Mr. Bush or Trent. I go back and forth, Trent
    Mike, you go whatever. Trent, everyone in this room knows that
    the benefits in outdoor recreation go far beyond just the
    immediate activity that you're engaged in and beyond just the
    economic measure--of economic impact.
        You know, when I first did my first summer field work, when
    I was getting my master's in geology, studied volcanic rocks
    north of Yellowstone Park. So, I went out for a whole summer,
    two years in a row. And that first summer I would go out for 10
    days at a time and then come back in and go to a place called
    Chico Hot Springs and have a great meal. And then I would go
    and take a shower, meal first.
        When I came back to where I was in school in Connecticut, a
    little small school there and my father had died when I had
    just turned eight. And it was my mother's second husband who
    passed away, so no one really talked about my dad. But the one
    thing that was good about all that, it was a dark period, but
    we didn't have to go to Sunday school. We didn't have to go to
    church.
        And it's funny, I came back from that first summer in the
    high of--in the Beartooth wilderness. And without even
    thinking, I started going to church. And I think that's
    something that we don't often, or don't always consider, is
    that the other benefits of being outside and into wilderness
    are profound.
        And it improves public health, obviously hiking, the
    exercise, climbing, but also combats loneliness. It diminishes
    anxiety, reduces stress. Many parts of Europe now, doctors
    prescribe an hour, you know, three times a week, taking a walk
    in the woods. In many cases though, the cost of the gear even
    for basic access is a barrier.
        And so, you brought up Travis, Trent, sorry, the TRs, those
    who were dyslexic did not set up this line. [Laughter.]
        Trent, you brought this, the tariffs are causing economic
    uncertainty, but it's also rising costs, I think undermine our
    efforts to create more access. And again, there's a price point
    for everything. And if we really believe this is a public
    health situation, that becomes a valuable equation.
        So, Trent, can you speak a little bit about the benefits of
    getting more folks outside from the industry perspective, and
    how these costs could affect more people getting access to the
    outdoors?
        Mr. Bush. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot there. You know, I
    think just to pull it all the way back to the most important
    benefits of being outside, there's probably no real--it's hard
    to look at a graph maybe of the rise of our mental health
    crisis in the U.S. and things like phones, right? The more
    people have been on social media doing whatever, the less that
    they're out in the outdoors. And I think that that is
    something--I think those are totally hand in hand.
        Being in the outdoors resets you, it resets everybody I've
    ever met. We have in my family alone, we have struggles with
    anxiety and depression and things like that. And the times that
    those are not as apparent as maybe they would be otherwise, are
    when we're outside. I mean, anybody that tries to go skiing or
    snowboarding, something like that in Colorado, it's already
    prohibitively expensive for a huge part of the population.
        These policies have not made that less expensive or made
    access easier. You talked about selling off public lands,
    that's less of a place for us to be, to reset our clocks and
    reset ourselves and, you know, maybe not go to church, but that
    could be a church for a lot of us. So, you know, you can't even
    put a measure on how important that access is to the health and
    welfare of people and all of these, everything that we're doing
    right now is totally antithesis of that happening.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Right. I agree.
        Mr. Mojica. May I add to that?
        Senator Hickenlooper. Sure.
        Mr. Mojica. This is part of my origin story here.
    [Laughter.]
        Me discovering the outdoors again. So, I'm a Texas defect,
    you know, hopefully you're okay with that, guys. God bless
    Texas. But I discovered Colorado and just amazing things
    happened. So, the year I started Outdoor Element, I had moved
    up to Aurora area and my neighbor's like, hey, Mike, you want
    to go hike a fourteener? And I was like, yes, let's do it. And
    then I said, what's a fourteener? Right? I had no idea what
    that meant. And he explained the altitude thing. And we did
    Mount Yale.
        And we did hike mount Yale and two things happened to me on
    that hike. One, I met a young lady, she was hiking down. She
    went up for a Sunrise summit and she was coming down, I was
    coming up, we just passed tree line, and she was like, all
    hobbling. And I was the weird guy that got right in front of
    her room, like, hey, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with
    you? And she's like, I rolled my ankle, obviously, you know,
    get out of my way. And I know. So, I sat her down and I had
    first aid kit and took off her boot, and I wrapped her up and
    sent her on her way.
        And then when I got to the top, I was with like three other
    guys. And I'm small, but I feel like I'm a strong dude. I'm a
    man, right? I got to the top and I'm like, why do I want to cry
    right now? And like, I had my little Moses moment, if you will.
    And I'm just like, I'm going to look over here guys because I
    can't hold my emotions together. And it was just like, it was
    this beautiful, peaceful, revelatory moment in my life.
        And I came down with two lessons. It was like, hey, let's
    be prepared. I feel like fire is a lifesaver, so I built it
    around my native name Bodaway. And then let's get outdoors
    more. Let's get in touch with these beautiful moments in life
    that we just have the landscape for here in Colorado, but this
    can happen anywhere.
        In addition, one of my kids suffered from anxiety as well,
    and we went through therapy, and then we discovered the Tetons.
    We went camping for nine days and just throwing rocks in a lake
    like cured my daughter. It was just like this beautiful thing.
    So, you're right, it's unmeasurable. Like we need the outdoors.
    Like, don't take this away from us.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Right? Well put, well put. Mr.
    Campbell, you, or Travis. You mentioned having to freeze salary
    increases and pull them back. You were going to hire two
    people, cut spending every way you could to try and make up for
    the tariff expenditures. I thought the part also, when you're
    doing that, at the same time, you're revising your forecast
    down. You know, when your numbers are down across the board,
    that's the hardest, I think.
        Are there other long-term implications, let's just
    specifically talk about staffing. Are you losing or potentially
    going to lose long-term employees that in many ways become
    irreplaceable?
        Mr. Campbell. Yes. My hope is that we don't lose any more
    employees fundamentally, that we find a way to navigate our way
    through this in a way that doesn't cost more roles for us.
        You know, you had mentioned long tail consequences from
    this disruption, somewhere along the way. And I think there's
    lots of long tail consequences to this, like lots of the
    damage, even if we like, snap our fingers and tariffs go back
    to their normal levels you know, at some level we've scared the
    global consumer. We've already at some level damaged our
    businesses through just like this level of disruption.
        Like a good example is we've paused some of the product
    introductions that we were planning to do over the next six to
    12 months, because just for a variety of reasons that didn't
    make sense to bring in the inventory and have the risk. And so,
    you know, again, if we snapped our fingers in this resolve
    today, our business will actually deal with the implications of
    this for probably 18 more months at a minimum.
        And our industry is built on innovation. People like Mike
    who have these amazing ideas for the next great product. And
    same with Trent, right? Like, building this incredible product
    that we want to be bringing to market. And these are complex,
    long timeline things, like I said earlier. And so, there's
    going to be an implication to that innovation pipeline because
    people have frozen those investment choices.
        And so, whether it ends up costing our businesses more
    people, it probably will. We're sort of, I think in our
    business, destined to have a bad sales year, there's not much
    that we can do to change that at this point. It's really about
    how do we plan for the next year and the next year and try and
    make sure that we get out of this cycle as quickly as we can.
        But I think it gets lost in a lot of this, right? Because
    we're so focused on right in front of our faces right now
    because the tariffs are so immediate. I think that long tail
    impact for it's going to ripple out for a long period of time.
    So, the faster that we can resolve this, the better we can move
    through.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Yes. Mike, let me come back to you
    and then I'll have a question for all of you. We'll work
    towards this. Mike, you've talked a lot about, you've been part
    of trying to be the solution. You reached out to officials;
    you're trying to collaborate, which will get you into trouble,
    that's how I first got into the government. [Laughter.]
        And I think your willingness to share your experiences and
    to collaborate is really important. Phasing out manufacturing
    in China, manufacturing domestically wherever as much as
    possible. But again, you've had to shift from thriving to
    surviving.
        What would you suggest to Congress? And you actually all
    can chime in on this. What would you suggest that Congress and
    the Administration could do to ensure the small businesses
    aren't left behind in these discussions? Small businesses of
    all stripes? Right now, we're just talking about outdoor
    recreation, but I think we're probably at that point where we
    need to start thinking about a structural process or solution
    that we can say, all right, this isn't going to solve it
    tomorrow, but this is something down the road. What's your
    response to that?
        Mr. Mojica. I think we're doing it right now, by you
    inviting us to the table and having an open conversation is, I
    think, critical to find a good solution. To feel like I have a
    voice, to feel like I'm heard, is for me it's volumes.
        Now love for--see some policy change. And I know it's a
    complex system, you know, I'm hoping, why couldn't there be a
    threshold for exclusions for either top line or number of
    employees, or if you're doing something for the environment.
    Like we work with a lot of recycled materials and we're trying
    to single use plastics from our packaging. There's like all
    these little things that are like, hey, this could be a viable
    solution. I have these ideas; I want to share them with
    someone. And just, you know, Katherine Tai never answered her
    messages and, you know, and so I'm just like, who can I speak
    to?
        So, I was more than excited to get a phone call. I think
    Connor Hall's the one who texted me and said, hey, let's have a
    conversation and then got me on this panel. So, thank you, sir.
    But I think the biggest thing is like, let's, make it real,
    let's turn this, not companies, as like a dollar sign, but as
    people, like who hire employees who often use family as
    employees. And if we're going to be the collateral damage
    because of that, I think it changes the equation when you see
    us as people and not just as a transaction, right? Well, this
    needs to be a relationship.
        I feel like Stephen, I think is--``It's like everything
    happens at the speed of relationships.'' Like have a
    relationship with small business, call us up. Like we want to
    be heard. I don't know who to call. I'll email, text, and tweet
    or whatever. And it's like, it just falls on deaf ears. But
    having this moment, I feel like is a sign of progress, in my
    opinion.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Right?
        Mr. Bush. Yes. I mean, I would just say maybe this is a--do
    your research before you act. Because if the goal, or one of
    the goals that I've heard of sort of all this tariff thing was
    to bring manufacturing back to the U.S. Make sure that it can
    happen before you make it impossible for anything to happen for
    us.
        I could have told you, obviously if somebody would've
    called, told them that there is nowhere to make those products.
    You were talking about, trying to make a dog leash, your
    daughter. Locally, you can't even make something that simple
    here right now. So do the research before you kind of turn off
    our lifelines, I would say.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Yes.
        Mr. Campbell. Those are great answers. I mean, I think I
    would say something similar to what Mike said. Small businesses
    are by their nature small and fragmented. And so, it's hard for
    us to speak as a collective voice. So, scenarios like this are
    what allow us to somewhat speak with a collective voice. And
    your committee allows that at some level. And so, you know,
    we'll never be able to hire lobbyists to be able to get access
    that the larger companies can pay for. And so, any
    opportunities like this where we can come together and use our
    voices and humanize our businesses is just super valuable.
        Senator Hickenlooper. I'll never take any campaign
    donations from those large corporations either. Last question.
    We were in the green room, a couple of you touched on this, but
    I do think it's interesting that within the tariff conversation
    there is other international negotiation and drama. And I
    wanted to ask each of you, because you all have international
    customers as we talked about.
        Have you seen people, and you can say both retail and
    wholesale customers who are saying, we can't do business with
    the United States anymore because of whatever. There's I'm sure
    multiple, you don't have to go into details, but is that
    something that's also part of the challenge and is it one or 2
    percent or is it for your business, you know, five to 10
    percent or just kind of again, run down on that?
        Mr. Campbell. I mean, I can give a quick answer. I couldn't
    put a percentage on it. We always think from a customer service
    standpoint, when we hear from one person, there's at least 10
    others, right? Like there's a heuristic idea of if somebody
    takes the time to call or send an email, then there's probably
    at least 10 more people who feel the same way.
        And so, I've gotten a number of emails from our friends up
    in Canada, who've sent through and basically a note saying, I
    love your product, I've used it for years and years and years,
    I'm never buying another one. Sorry. And those are not the
    emails you like to get. Right.
        And so, I don't know how large of a scale that is. I know
    Canadians in particular have been speaking with their wallet
    and not traveling to the U.S. and so you know, that in a very
    small way has a significant impact on our business.
        Mr. Mojica. In my case, I feel like what's happened is I am
    no longer fostering my international accounts where I should
    be, because I'm trying to juggle, trying to learn how to deal
    with the tariffs here. I got an email last week from our
    Japanese distributor that says, hey, we never got this, your
    new pricing structure. How does it look for international? I'm
    like, whoa, that's a great question. So, I admittedly have not
    done the analysis to update pricing for my international
    accounts.
        Some things will slip through the cracks when you're in
    survival mode. And I feel like that's where I am, where I need
    to take a step back and reanalyze and possibly like, get some
    hired help, some part-time help. Like, hey, let's look at this.
    I need someone smarter than me to come to the table and be
    like, how do we orchestrate this, what's the step forward?
        So yes, I feel like international accounts right now,--they
    weren't the bulk of my business. We're talking like 5-8
    percent. And because of that, where I wanted the plan was to
    foster them this year, next year, it's on hold. And so, my
    growths on hold and so is my R&D deck. Like I've been waiting
    to like bring more things to the market and I had a few
    customers say, hey, you showed me this R&D deck, like, when's
    that coming out? I'm like, well, I put that on pause for a
    while. So, I don't know yet. So, it's a lot of things are on
    hold right now.
        Mr. Bush. And we are different than a lot of brands,
    especially kind of startup and small brands where we take a
    little bit more of a wholesale approach. I've always really
    believed retailers have done a great job building their
    communities, and our job is to support their work with the end
    consumer. That now has sort of ended up in a situation where
    we're actually bigger in Europe, in Scandinavia than we are in
    the U.S.
        Mainly European marketplace typically is a little more
    forward on buying on performance, sustainability, quality,
    longevity, things like that. U.S. consumers or retailers, hype
    and price are usually a big driver of a lot of things. because
    it makes their job much easier to sell the product.
        So, we're in a position right now where there's major anti-
    American sentiment across the European Union, of course. And
    there are Reddit pages. You can Google all this stuff and
    really the boycotts on American outdoor brands in particular
    from a consumer perspective. So, if those really take hold with
    those bigger retailers we work with because we are focused on
    retail relationships, then that'll be the end for us because we
    are so heavily weighted in Europe right now.
        Senator Hickenlooper. That sucks. Yes, it does. And I'll
    finish. Just to the quick question. Because as a small business
    person, we were always looking over our shoulder at the really
    big companies and whether they were going to come into our
    market and whether that direct competition--how we would
    respond, were we ready? And obviously the restaurant business,
    you always had some big box competition. But you guys all have
    big competition as well, large companies.
        And you know, it's similar, when Congress tried to regulate
    the large banks after the fiasco, the financial crisis of 2009,
    2010, who really got hurt were small banks. Because the really
    large companies can tolerate these ups and downs and swings of
    more regulation, they're large enough so they can more easily
    spend or can accommodate the cost of five or 10 staff members
    to deal with all this red tape.
        I think in the same way, I haven't seen this written
    around, thought about, but I think it is giving an undue
    advantage to your large competitors because they've got more
    space in their budget to deal with a tariff for six months or a
    year and try and get through this while the process gets sorted
    out. Am I thinking about that right? Why don't we go down the
    line?
        Mr. Campbell. Yes, you are. And sorry, I was getting ready
    to--I was so excited to answer. [Laughter.]
        I was in DC a couple weeks ago lobbying and speaking with
    members of Congress. And one of the things that I heard from a
    few offices was, just wait. This needs a few more months to
    resolve.
        And to get to your point, like most small businesses
    actually don't have a few months to wait. Because again, we
    don't have the balance sheet to absorb the losses over that
    span of time. Whereas the big companies do, to your point.
        If I'm a large company and it takes six months for this to
    resolve, that's fine. You know, the bank will float them
    through that window or they already have the assets on their
    balance sheet to get through that window. But most small
    businesses aren't structured with that level of reserves to
    hang on, and so it does.
        I talk a lot about the second order and third order effects
    of these choices that we're dealing with, right? The first
    order effects are pretty obvious, costs go up. But the second
    and third order effects are exactly what you say, which is like
    the competitive landscape changes based on capital structure
    that you may have had or the scale of your business. And so,
    this does in a strange way, put an advantage on the bigger
    companies and the smaller companies are disadvantaged.
        Mr. Mojica. I was slightly jealous when I read that, I
    think it was Apple, shipped six tons of iPhones over, you know?
    because I was like, wow, what kind of bank account do they
    have? And it doesn't look like mine. [Laughter.]
        And I think the irony too, is like having a conversation
    about tariffs and international commerce is a good thing. And I
    think in the end we may end up in a better spot, but how we're
    getting there is crippling to small business. It is treating us
    like collateral damage and I feel like a pawn in this game.
        And for me I feel like we weren't considered in the
    conference, like you're saying, like the research isn't there.
    Like you were mentioning like my kids own a dog business,
    selling leashes and we were trying to make it stateside and
    essentially get ghosted by three companies. And so, we were
    forced to go overseas, and then now I feel like we're penalized
    for being overseas. And it's just like the game doesn't make
    sense to me right now. And again, just to your point, I do feel
    like there's an unfair advantage to the larger companies,
    right?
        Mr. Bush. Yes. We actually have a joke inside, that the big
    brands have more daytime janitors than we have employees.
    [Laughter.]
        And it's because it's true. You know? And you see it in the
    marketplace right now, if you look at some of the big brand
    moves that have to happen because of these, whether they're
    using an excuse or whether it's actually true, it's easy to
    pull levers at scale. You can fire 400 people or lay off 400
    people to make up for some of these issues. I can't do that.
    We're bare bones as it is. So, we just can't do that. You know?
        The other thing that from a brand perspective, competing
    against much bigger brands, we can't just, especially with our
    sort of wholesale strategy, we can't just shift more resources
    to sort of the direct to consumer side, where there's a much
    bigger margin, where much bigger brands could actually use this
    as a pivot point to even sort of abandon those retailers
    further and really take that attention towards building their
    own consumer base and competing directly against the brands
    that they sell to them right now.
        So, there's a lot of things that are going to happen and
    I'm interested actually to see where it ends up.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I think in a funny way, and I
    know a number, I have a good relationship with a number of
    Republican senators. This is not their intention. They do not
    intend, to not only put pressure and in many cases, going to
    drive out of business, small enterprises. And if that business
    will get swooped up by the big companies, they won't have to
    spend any money. It'll be, low hanging fruit.
        And the injustice of that, I don't think was intended by
    any Republican senator that I know. And hopefully we can begin
    moving now that the tariffs have been put on hold and kind of
    pushed aside. Maybe that becomes the default, that's what's
    going to be, that 10 percent, no fun. But at least if you knew
    it was going to be 10 percent going forward, it would be a
    better world, right? And I think that would give every small
    business person at least a fighting chance of holding their own
    against the larger competition and against the international
    markets as well, which you guys are all competing on.
        So, anyway, I'll give to you a last comment if you want.
    You don't have to just----
        Mr. Bush. I just really appreciate this, thank you very
    much. These are the types of things that we don't have access
    to, typically, as just little business owners with a dream. And
    it's really refreshing to have somebody actually sit across
    from me and listen and absorb and ask great questions. And I
    really appreciate it. So, thank you and thank you to the staff
    for having me and us.
        Senator Hickenlooper. You bet.
        Mr. Mojica. I echo what Trent said. Thank you so much for
    this opportunity to hear our voice. For a small business, I
    never thought I'd be in a Senate hearing. [Laughter.]
        So, for me, it's incredible to be heard.
        Mr. Campbell. Yes. Just to thank you, also appreciate
    putting a light on this.
        Senator Hickenlooper. I appreciate all of your efforts. I,
    again, there's parts of me that listen to this and make me want
    to leap into it, back into it. Parts of it are, you know, in
    the back of my head saying, we got to do something. And thank
    God I don't have to deal with the challenges that you guys are
    all facing, just because I've been there and I know what it's
    like.
        And you know, sometimes you realize all the different
    attributes that you as individuals have to have. You know, how
    did you know when you first started your business, that good
    parenting was going to help allow your business to get through
    the tough times? Having kids, being able to step up you know,
    all of those things, and they always are, but these are
    unpredictable, I mean, completely unpredictable times and do
    force us into situations that are oftentimes impossible. And
    yet we deal with it as small business people.
        But let me make the commitment to you that I will go back,
    this is all the congressional record. I'm not sure how much
    good that does, but it does lay it down and the public can get
    access to it and hear the stories, because I think only through
    those stories can we convince Congress and the administration
    to wake up and recognize that we're sustaining losses here.
    They're needless and they're going to be long lasting, and they
    affect every aspect of our country.
        So, thank you all. I have to do my closing or who knows
    what legal problems I'll be in. [Laughter.]
        Thank you to our panel of witnesses for your experience,
    your suggestions and certainly the most precious thing for any
    small business person, your time, to come here. Again, I want
    to thank chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, the truly
    dedicated committee staff for making this hearing possible.
    It's obviously they have to schlep out and put all this
    together on a one-off basis.
        I'll reemphasize that this is not the end of the
    discussion. This is a beginning to our effort to raise the
    alarm about how these tariffs are hurting our country. I think
    our sleeves are rolled up; your sleeves are all rolled up. We
    will dedicate ourselves to creating real practical solutions to
    some of these issues you're facing, and do a better job of
    working with the Administration if they'll let us, to create a
    tariff system that's maybe a little more nuanced, but actually
    protects one of our most valuable assets, our small businesses.
        If other people have questions or if you guys have other
    things you want to put in the record, we'll keep the record
    open for a couple weeks. I don't know what that exact date is
    but it's in there. I should know it off the top of my head. You
    go over the end of the month or always mix the math hard. Thank
    you all, really appreciate.
        We'll gavel off.
        [Whereupon, at 2:22 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                               [all]