[Senate Hearing 119-78]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






                                 ______


                                                         S. Hrg. 119-78
 
                      PERSPECTIVES FROM THE FIELD,
                          PART 4: CONSERVATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                       COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
                        NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              May 13, 2025

                               __________

                       Printed for the use of the
           Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
           
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                  Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
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             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 60-405 PDF          WASHINGTON : 2025
      
                  
                  
                  
                  
           COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY


                    JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky            AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado
JONI ERNST, Iowa                     TINA SMITH, Minnesota
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas               CORY BOOKER, New Jersey
TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama            BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa               PETER WELCH, Vermont
JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska                ADAM SCHIFF, California
JERRY MORAN, Kansas                  ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan

               Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director
                    Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk
                Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director
                 Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                         Tuesday, May 13, 2025

                                                                   Page

Hearing:

Perspectives From the Field, Part 4: Conservation................     1

                              ----------                              

                    STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS

Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Arkansas......     1
Klobuchar, Hon. Amy, U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota....     2

                               WITNESSES

Blair, Gary, President, National Association of Conservation 
  Districts, Starkville, MS......................................     6
Doyle, Brad, Board Member and Producer, Arkansas Farm Bureau, 
  Weiner, AR.....................................................     7
Tjeerdsma, Lynn, Member, Board of Directors, Pheasants Forever 
  and Quail Forever, Platte, SD..................................     9
Ellis, Chad, Chief Executive Officer, Texas Agricultural Land 
  Trust, San Antonio, TX.........................................    10
Dwyer, Megan, Director of Conservation and Nutrient Stewardship, 
  Illinois Corn Growers Association, Coal Valley, IL.............    12
                              ----------                              

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Blair, Gary..................................................    30
    Doyle, Brad..................................................    35
    Tjeerdsma, Lynn..............................................    38
    Ellis, Chad..................................................    48
    Dwyer, Megan.................................................    51

Question and Answer:
Blair, Gary:
    Written response to questions from Hon. John Hoeven..........    60
    Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville.....    61
    Written response to questions from Hon. Raphael Warnock......    62
    Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch..........    64
    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........    64
Doyle, Brad:
    Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville.....    68
Tjeerdsma, Lynn:
    Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......    70
    Written response to questions from Hon. Raphael Warnock......    71
Ellis, Chad:
    Written response to questions from Hon. John Hoeven..........    73
Dwyer, Megan:
    Written response to questions from Hon. Raphael Warnock......    74
    Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch..........    75
    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........    76


                      PERSPECTIVES FROM THE FIELD,
                          PART 4: CONSERVATION

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, MAY 13, 2025

                                        U.S. Senate
          Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:03 p.m., in 
Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. John Boozman, 
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Boozman [presiding], Hoeven, Ernst, Hyde-
Smith, Marshall, Tuberville, Justice, Thune, Moran, Klobuchar, 
Bennet, Durbin, Warnock, Welch, and Slotkin.

   STATEMENT OF HON. BOOZMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF 
 ARKANSAS, CHAIRMAN, U.S. COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, 
                          AND FORESTRY

    Chairman Boozman. Good afternoon and welcome. It is my 
privilege to call this hearing to order to discuss the 
importance of conservation to our Nation's producers. I would 
like to thank our witnesses for taking time away from your 
families and your work responsibilities to share your expertise 
with our Committee today.
    When it comes to conservation, farmers and ranchers are at 
the forefront of this effort because their livelihoods depend 
on the health and sustainability of their lands. American 
producers' commitment to conservation while producing the food, 
fiber, and fuel our Nation needs benefits all Americans by 
providing clean water, clean air, healthy soils, and abundant 
wildlife habitat. Through reauthorization of the farm bill, 
Congress can play a role in supporting this commitment by 
improving the conservation programs implemented by USDA and 
investing in these initiatives.
    The conservation needs of agriculture are diverse and 
unique to each producer and operation, and we must ensure that 
the farm bill supports the wide range of needs. Farm bill 
conservation programs are successful because they are locally 
led, voluntary, and incentive-driven, and this must continue in 
the next farm bill. We must not tie the hands of our producers 
by requiring the implementation of certain conservation 
practices in order to be eligible for other incentives like 
crop insurance.
    The heavy hand of government does not know better than the 
individual producer regarding what resource concerns they need 
to address locally. Just looking at the producers here before 
us, we know that the needs of rice producers in the Arkansas 
Delta are not the same as what corn producers in Illinois or 
ranchers in Texas need. The Senate Republican framework 
released last year highlighted many of these priorities and the 
need for this flexibility.
    The framework made commonsense improvements to the 
conservation programs in the farm bill by streamlining their 
implementation and moving more decision-making to the states 
and local level. These improvements will save time and money 
for both producers and USDA. It has also supported the 
technical assistance that producers need to help implement and 
design conservation on their operation and embraced innovation 
through precision agriculture and the support of new 
conservation practices.
    Finally, the framework also included the reinvestment of 
the unspent Inflation Reduction Act funds into existing 
conservation programs to ensure producers have access to these 
programs for generations to come.
    Ranking Member Klobuchar has always been a strong champion 
of conservation programs at USDA. I look forward to working 
together to craft a strong Conservation Title while we work to 
pass a bipartisan farm bill this year. Our producers need 
certainty, not another one-year extension of the 2018 Farm 
Bill. I am confident the testimony provided by our witnesses 
today will prove invaluable as we write the farm bill, and I 
thank you again for your participation today.
    Senator Klobuchar.

  STATEMENT OF HON. KLOBUCHAR, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF 
                           MINNESOTA

    Senator Klobuchar. Well, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman 
for holding this hearing today. Thank you to our witnesses who 
have come to share their perspectives. I have a lot of respect 
for them.
    I will say that as we are working on this important buildup 
to what I hope will be a bipartisan farm bill, on the other 
side of the Capitol we have some cuts proposed to food 
assistance, well near $300 billion, that could make it very 
difficult to do a farm bill. I continue to believe in the work 
of this Committee, and I hope that we will find a way through 
this.
    I strongly support our work that we have done together on 
improvements to conservation. Conservation programs and their 
many supporters are a critical part of the broad bipartisan 
coalition needed for a farm bill. USDA voluntary conservation 
programs--and I emphasize voluntary--are open to producers 
across the country, big and small operations, row crop, 
livestock, and specialty crop farms. They assist farmers, 
ranchers, sportsmen, and many others to improve soil health, 
water quality, and wildlife habitat. I have long championed 
these conservation programs and have seen how they can make 
farms more profitable and resilient while supporting the 
communities around them, wildlife hunters and fishers in my 
home State of Minnesota.
    I have also led efforts to improve conservation programs, 
including with Leader Thune in the last farm bill, to increase 
the number of acres in the Conservation Reserve Program and to 
create a pilot program to study innovative approaches to 
improve soil health.
    I want to thank USDA for reopening sign-up for CRP without 
major changes to the parts focused on wildlife that I have long 
championed and will continue to champion.
    I am also looking forward to again joining with the 
Majority Leader this week to introduce an updated version of 
the Agriculture Innovation Act with the support of farmers and 
conservation groups. This is part of my commitment to ensure 
strong conservation initiatives are in place.
    Since the last farm bill, Congress has made historic 
investments in voluntary conservation programs. Despite this 
investment, demand from farmers and conservationists continue 
to outpace available funding. It is my hope that there will 
still be an opportunity to create increased long-term funding 
for the USDA voluntary conservation programs in the farm bill 
baseline.
    I am concerned about the recent loss of 2,400 employees 
from NRCS, the pauses in funding, the cuts to technical 
assistance, and a troubling budget proposal, which are pushing 
us in the wrong direction. Connecting farmers with voluntary 
conservation programs involves critical partnerships between 
USDA, local conservation districts, wildlife organizations, 
states, and businesses. These partnerships and NRCS staff in 
rural America are important for operating the programs that the 
farmers rely on.
    Funding disruptions are unfortunately impacting these 
partners, and uncertainty has meant furloughs for many staff. I 
have heard from farmers across my state that they need 
certainty, the certainty of their USDA experts and partner 
organizations like the ones that are here today.
    We are glad that some funds are slowly being released and 
programs like CRP reopened, and of course this needs to be a 
major part of any farm bill agreement for a future farm bill as 
we go forward. I look forward to hearing from all of you. Thank 
you.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. We are going to now ask 
Senator Thune to introduce Mr. Tjeerdsma.
    Senator Thune. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me just 
say how much I appreciate both you and Senator Klobuchar and 
the leadership roles that you now have, and I look forward to 
working with both of you and with the Members of this Committee 
on a farm bill. As Senator Klobuchar pointed out, there are a 
number of things in the Conservation Title that we have worked 
together on through the years, and I hope that this farm bill 
is an example of how this place can still work in a way that 
gets the best farm policies in place for our farmers and 
ranchers and make sure that our ag economy is set up for 
success in this country and able to prosper.
    I am very honored today, Mr. Chairman, to be able to 
introduce to this Committee Lynn Tjeerdsma. I have had the 
pleasure of knowing Lynn for a few decades now. He is from a 
small town of Platt, South Dakota, where he continues to run 
his family farm. I might add I have hunted pheasants a number 
of times on his place, and he practices what he preaches. The 
conservation practices that he employs on his farm are a great 
example, working lands, conservation, and how things ought to 
be done.
    Lynn first came to work for me in the Senate in 2007 to 
help out on the 2008 Farm Bill. After the bill passed, he 
headed over to the Farm Service Agency at USDA to serve as 
Assistant Deputy Administrator for Farm programs. I asked him 
back in 2011 to work with me on the next farm bill. He was with 
me not only for that one but for the subsequent farm bill after 
that until his retirement in 2019. We have worked together now 
on three farm bills.
    He did not go far, however, and he continues his work in 
conservation, most recently becoming a member of the National 
Board of Directors of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever. I 
would say South Dakota's--and I would argue really the Nation's 
farmers and ranchers--are way better off today because of 
Lynn's knowledge and his contributions. There is not anybody 
that I have worked with who is more passionate about 
agriculture in this country and creating the right conditions 
for our farmers not only to thrive but to prosper. I am glad he 
has once again been given the opportunity to share his 
perspective with this Committee.
    I would just say, as someone who has been working on these 
issues for a long time, there are certain, as we all know, 
policy matters that come before this Committee that are 
somewhat complicated, and there are not very many people I have 
known in my time here that can fully explain the Dairy Program 
or fully explain the Sugar Program or many of the other 
programs, particularly the counter cyclical programs in Title 
I, but Lynn can do that. He is incredibly knowledgeable, 
passionate, and well-versed, and I welcome, as always, his 
input and contributions to this farm bill, which I am confident 
under your leadership we are going to get done. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. We appreciate the Majority 
Leader being here. He is incredibly busy but is one of our most 
active Members.
    Senator Hyde-Smith is going to introduce Mr. Blair.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    I am really proud to introduce my friend Gary Blair, a 
fellow Mississippian. Mr. Gary Blair, it says Starkville, 
Mississippi, but we shared the hometown of Brookhaven, 
Mississippi, for a long time and watched each other's children 
grow up.
    Gary serves as President of the National Association of 
Conservation Districts, which represents the 3,000 conservation 
districts across 57 states and territories along with their 
associations and 17,000 locally elected or appointed governing 
board members. Conservation districts were first established in 
1937 as local units of government by state law, originally 
partnering with the Soil Conservation Service, which we know 
today as the Natural Resources Conservation Service.
    Gary is a 1981 graduate of Mississippi State University and 
recently retired after 36 years with Southern Ag Credit. He has 
also served as President of the Mississippi Forestry 
Association, the Mississippi Association of Conservation 
Districts, and the Brookhaven Chamber of Commerce. He and his 
wife Johnna have a son, Jonathan, who proudly followed in his 
father's footsteps as a Mississippi State Bulldog.
    Gary, thank you for representing our state so well, and I 
certainly look forward to a quick visit and your testimony 
today.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you.
    Next is Mr. Brad Doyle, a soybean, rice, and wheat farmer 
from Poinsett County, Arkansas. Brad is a passionate person 
about trade, scientific crop research, and plant breeding. He 
operates the Eagle Seed Company with his son and wife, Joyce. 
Joyce is with us today, who is also, like I say, certainly an 
active member of the business. Eagle Seed Company specializes 
in developing soybeans, rice, wheat, cereal, rye, food plots, 
and cover crops.
    He serves on the State Board of Directors for Arkansas Farm 
Bureau and served as President and Chairman of the American 
Soybean Association. Thank you for being here.
    Mr. Chad Ellis is the Chief Executive Officer of Texas 
Agricultural Land Trust. He has spent over 25 years 
implementing stewardship-focused management with producers but 
also on his own operation in Lohn, Texas. Chad is the past 
Chair of the Roundtable for Sustainable Beef and the Ecosystem 
Services Market Consortium and founding Chair of Trust In Beef 
Program. He earned his degree in wildlife management from Sul 
Ross State University and a graduate degree in animal science 
from Angelo State University. Again, thank you for being here.
    Senator Durbin is going to introduce Mrs. Dwyer.
    Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    This hearing on conservation has brought some wonderful 
talent and resources to the Committee room this afternoon, and 
one of them is my special guest, Mrs. Megan Dwyer, of Coal 
Valley, Illinois. A fourth-generation farmer, Megan, along with 
her husband Todd, run crop and livestock operations with their 
families in both Coal Valley and Geneseo. Megan also serves as 
Director of Conservation and Nutrient Stewardship for the 
Illinois Corn Growers, and her expertise in conservation makes 
her an especially valuable witness today.
    In addition to her farming and conservation background, 
Megan also is a mother of four, and I am happy to see that she 
is joined by Hailey, one of her daughters, who is in the fourth 
grade and promises me that she is going to be in the fifth 
grade next year.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Durbin. She will be sharing her expertise with her 
mom with the Committee, just like she shared her knowledge with 
my staff and members of the Illinois delegation, farm groups, 
and many others on farm conservation practices.
    I just want to close by making a book recommendation on the 
topic of conservation. Probably the most eye-opening experience 
in modern American history was the Great Dust Bowl. We have 
seen some pictures of it, we have heard about it, we have our 
impression of it. There is a book entitled The Worst Hard Time. 
The author is Tim Egan. It is just amazing. It tells a story in 
more detail and is more graphic than anything I have ever read 
on the subject.
    I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing, and I thank 
Megan and Hailey for joining us today.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you, Senator Durbin. Thank all of 
you again for being here.
    Mr. Blair, you are now recognized for your statement.

  STATEMENT OF GARY BLAIR, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF 
        CONSERVATION DISTRICTS, STARKVILLE, MISSISSIPPI

    Mr. Blair. First of all, I want to thank my U.S. Senator 
Cindy Hyde-Smith.
    Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Klobuchar, and Members of 
the Committee, good afternoon and thank you for the opportunity 
to speak with you today.
    With approximately 60 percent of our Nation's lands in 
private ownership, our ability to achieve landscape-scale 
conservation goals relies on the voluntary cooperation of 
millions of farmers, ranchers, and forest stewards who manage 
these lands every day. Our Nation's farmers and ranchers are 
land stewards at heart. They want to leave the land better than 
they found it, but they cannot do it alone. They need timely, 
high-quality technical assistance and conservation programs 
like EQIP and CSP to keep their lands healthy and productive.
    Approximately 39 percent of our lands are farmlands, and 88 
percent of our farmers are small to medium-size operations. 
Most have secondary sources of income so they can sustain their 
passion for working the lands. About 30 percent of these are 
new and beginning farmers.
    I cannot overstate the level of expertise and capacity 
needed to serve our Nation's landowners and operators. 
Technical assistance is the foundation of our conservation 
delivery system, and cultivating relationships drives 
successful outcomes. Conservation is not just a transaction; it 
is a journey. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, and we 
help ensure that conservation plans are tailored to address 
producers' unique environmental challenges, as well as economic 
realities.
    During President Trump's previous Administration, Secretary 
Perdue assessed the NRCS's conservation workload, producer 
needs, and drive times to visit NRCS and conservation district 
offices where we are often co-located. They identified the 
optimal office locations and approved an 11,000 employee 
staffing cap at NRCS.
    NACD is highly supportive of this approach in optimizing 
the staffing and offices, but we are concerned about the 
reported separation of almost 2,400 NRCS employees and the 
potential return to Fiscal Year 2020 onboard staffing levels. 
It has been NACD's consistent position that these staffing 
levels were insufficient to meet the producers' needs.
    Today, NRCS has even a higher workload associated with the 
administration of the IRA funds. NACD is supportive of the 
efforts to streamline government-stewarded taxpayer dollars. We 
have been pleased with Chief Aubrey Bettencourt's leadership 
and collaboration on conservation workforce needs. Through our 
national and local partnership conservation districts, their 
state associations, the state agencies are standing by to 
support NRCS by contributing their expertise and financial 
resources to ensure we collectively meet producer needs across 
the country.
    Demand for conservation is high. Farm bill programs have 
been constantly oversubscribed. In Fiscal Year 2024, IRA 
allowed NRCS to fund 80 percent more EQIP and CSP applications. 
This is still only 43 percent of the $8.7 billion requested by 
producers. Because of NACD's top priority to ensure IRA funds 
are integrated into the farm bill program, getting funding to 
producers to implement conservation practices remains a mutual 
priority, particularly given current economic challenges. We 
know Secretary Rollins understands this, and we were pleased to 
see that USDA will honor the existing contracts and expedite 
the release of payments. NACD hopes to see the pause on new 
obligations lifted, particularly for the new IRA-funded 
contracts with the producers.
    American farmers, ranchers, and forest stewards are ready 
and eager to participate in conservation programs. They simply 
need certainty and tools to get it done. Maintaining strong 
investments in farm bill conservation programs, technical 
assistance, and supporting an efficient and skilled 
conservation workforce, and ensuring local presence in 
communities across this country allows us to fulfill our mutual 
commitment to delivering results for producers, taxpayers, and 
the land.
    Thank you for your time today and continued support of 
locally led conservation.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Blair can be found on pages 
30-34 in the appendix.]
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Mr. Doyle.

 STATEMENT OF BRAD DOYLE, BOARD MEMBER AND PRODUCER, ARKANSAS 
                 FARM BUREAU, WEINER, ARKANSAS

    Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member 
Klobuchar, and Members of the Committee. It is an honor to be 
here this afternoon on behalf of Arkansas Farm Bureau and its 
180,000 members. I would just like to say how incredibly proud 
we are of Chairman Boozman and his leadership. Mr. Chairman, 
thank you for all you do for Arkansas producers and American 
agriculture.
    My name is Brad Doyle. I am a third-generation farmer in 
Poinsett County, Arkansas. Along with my wife, Joyce, and son, 
Cody, we farm rice, soybeans, and wheat. Our family business 
has been farming the land for over 100 years. We also run a 
seed business, a seed production resource that provides 
soybean, rice, corn, and wheat seed to farmers across the 
United States and Canada.
    The United States is home to the most affordable, reliable, 
and abundant food supply in the world. Many of your 
constituents dedicate their lives to the land, providing the 
knowledge, labor, and financial investment necessary for the 
United States to remain a world leader in food and fiber 
production. In recognition of the risk and responsibility 
placed on American farmers, Congress has invested in 
agriculture for over 90 years.
    The first farm programs created by Congress were a direct 
response to the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression. During 
another period of true crisis for production agriculture was in 
the mid-1980's. Congress passed the first unified farm bill 
that combined land retirement conservation programs with crop 
insurance and Commodity Support programs.
    American row crop farmers are facing another historic 
breaking point. As this Committee has heard over the past 
several months, the current state of the U.S. agricultural 
economy reveals a widening and unsustainable gap between the 
prices farmers are paid for their products and the prices they 
must pay to produce them. Crop farmers like myself have been 
hit especially hard. According to USDA's farm sector income 
forecast, inflation adjustment crop cash receipts have declined 
since 2022 by $67 billion, or 22 percent, while input costs for 
essentials like seed, chemicals, repairs, and taxes remain at 
near record levels.
    Farmers today are caught between collapsing commodity 
pricing and stubbornly high production prices. Despite recent 
improvements in risk management tools like crop insurance and 
ad hoc government assistance, the disparity between prices 
received and prices paid has widened dramatically, threatening 
the financial viability of farms across the Nation. Unless 
structural changes are enacted through a modernized farm bill 
that provides commodity support that reflects the cost of 
production, enhanced risk management tools, meaningful 
investment in trade, and strengthened conservation support, the 
United States risks irreversible damage to its agricultural 
foundation.
    The Conservation Title, the focus of today's hearing, 
provides financial and technical support for farmers and 
ranchers who voluntarily implement conservation practices. Let 
me give you an example. In 1985, my father-in-law saw a need to 
build the first reservoir on our family farm. He took 100 acres 
out of production. Fast forward to 2019--that is a correction 
in the record book. It should be 2019, not 2000, as is stated. 
Our family started plans to apply for an EQIP-funded project to 
build a second 45-acre reservoir on the opposite end of the 
farm to help with the irrigation pumping capacity while 
capturing rainwater in our area. It lessens the water burden on 
our aquifers that we rely on for irrigation. Remind you, I am 
in Poinsett County, number one rice-producing county in 
America.
    The irrigation timing and management of excess water on a 
flat rice and soybean farm are critical to crop production. The 
reason our soils hold water well is they are very shallow and 
thin, and we get a great response from irrigation. The project 
that we started, it was completed in 2023 with a follow-up 
cover crop plan that we initiated through 2024. With limited 
funds available, it is critically important to formulate a 
plan, get on the waiting list, and follow the detailed criteria 
to follow the local NRCS support and fund such a large project.
    The demand for these programs consistently outpaces 
available funding, leading to a need for more robust support in 
future farm bills. In the 2018 Farm Bill, conservation programs 
accounted for only seven percent of the total farm bill 
spending. As Congress works to develop the next farm bill, the 
inclusion of additional funds, namely those allocated to 
agriculture conservation and the Inflation Reduction Act would 
allow more producers to implement conservation practices, 
ensuring healthy farmland for generations to come.
    With that, I will end my statement and want to thank you 
all for having me here today.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Doyle can be found on pages 
35-37 in the appendix.]
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Mr. Tjeerdsma.

   STATEMENT OF LYNN TJEERDSMA, MEMBER, BOARD OF DIRECTORS, 
   PHEASANTS FOREVER AND QUAIL FOREVER, PLATTE, SOUTH DAKOTA

    Mr. Tjeerdsma. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Klobuchar, 
and Majority Leader Senator Thune, I really appreciate the 
opportunity to be here, and I also appreciate, Senator Thune, 
the opportunity you gave me for 11 years of working with you on 
conservation programs and other programs. Also, I would like to 
say the pheasants on my farm do not look forward to your 
return. He is an excellent shot. I have experienced that 
myself, so a real sportsman and pleasure to hunt with and 
passionate about conservation programs, as are many of the 
Members of this Committee that I have worked with and members 
of the staff that I have worked with over the years on farm 
bills.
    I am a farmer, rancher, retired public servant, and I 
currently serve on the Board of Directors for Pheasants Forever 
and Quail Forever, and it is a privilege to testify here today 
on behalf of the members, partners in the farming and ranching 
community.
    Here is some numbers about Pheasants Forever, how important 
they are, and Quail Forever for conservation. Over 490,000 
members, supporters, and partners, 750 local chapters that make 
up the Nation's largest nonprofit organization dedicated to 
upland habitat conservation. Since 1982, PF and QF have 
invested more than $1 billion in 580,000 habitat projects 
benefiting 28.8 million acres, and that is an impact, and that 
is why we need the Conservation Title so this can continue.
    We partner with thousands of private landowners, farm and 
ranch families, state and wildlife agencies, and federal 
partners at USDA. Each year, more than 480 PF and QF wildlife 
biologists and conservation professionals help producers plan 
and implement wildlife-friendly, economically viable 
conservation practices on their farms. I know this from 
personal experience. The voluntary, incentive-based, locally 
led conservation programs in the farm bill on my farm have 
protected the fragile acres, improved soil health, reduced 
erosion, and provided ample wildlife habitat, resulting in 
sporting opportunities for me, my son, grandsons, and friends. 
The technical assistance I have received, thanks to the farm 
bill and PF and QF biologists, has been invaluable in selecting 
the best practices and achieving my farming operation goals.
    The farm bill is a critical and practical conservation 
policy tool that benefits producers, rural communities, and the 
hunting and outdoor recreation economy, and I would like to say 
in my home State of South Dakota, pheasant hunting alone in 
2023 provides $281 million to the state's economy, over a 
quarter of a billion dollars just from pheasant hunting alone, 
which the pheasants are there because of the Conservation Title 
in the farm bill.
    This is why we need to pass a five-year farm bill with 
strong investments in conservation practices and technical 
assistance to meet oversubscribed farmer and rancher demand. 
Incorporating unspent Inflation Reduction Act funding into the 
Conservation Title baseline is a necessary move that has 
bipartisan support in Congress.
    We also need to shore up and improve the Conservation 
Reserve Program, which is one of the most essential farm bill 
programs for America's soil, water, and wildlife producers. 
When I first left the farm in 1985 as CED, County Executive 
Director, in Moody County, South Dakota, we implemented the 
first farm bill, which was authorized in the first CRP program, 
which was authorized in the 1985 Farm Bill, and to see the 
program expand to what it is now and what it is done is another 
reason I am here and saying how important the Conservation 
Title is. The CRP Improvement Act, led by Majority Leader 
Thune, Ranking Member Klobuchar, addresses many of the needs 
that we see now in the Conservation Reserve Program.
    Another key program, the Voluntary Public Access Program, 
which supports America's hunting, heritage, and boosts rural 
recreation economies, Senators Bennet, Daines, and Marshall 
have introduced the VPA Improvement Act to maximize this 
program's economic benefits.
    Among other priorities outlined in my testimony, we support 
full funding for EQIP (Environmental Quality Incentive 
Program), Working Lands for Wildlife, which strengthen habitat 
and working landscapes while helping growers navigate 
regulatory and business pressures. These programs can be 
improved by the Agriculture Innovation Act, also led by 
Majority Leader Thune and Ranking Member Klobuchar. This bill 
will enable USDA to analyze and compile farm data, returning 
insights to growers on conservation benefits.
    In closing, thank you very much for the opportunity to 
testify today and for your consideration of these priorities. I 
look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Tjeerdsma can be found on 
pages 38-47 in the appendix.]
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Mr. Ellis.

    STATEMENT OF CHAD ELLIS, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, TEXAS 
          AGRICULTURAL LAND TRUST, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS

    Mr. Ellis. Good afternoon, Chairman Boozman and Members of 
the Committee. My name is Chad Ellis, the Executive Officer of 
the Texas Agricultural Land Trust and also the Vice President 
of Partnership of Rangeland Trust.
    TALT was developed by producers for producers by our 
founding members of the Texas Farm Bureau, Texas Southwestern 
Cattle Raisers Association, and Texas Wildlife Association, our 
three major grassroots landowner-led organizations. The 
leadership of these organizations were forward-thinking and 
realized that they needed a trusted source to help keep our 
working lands working and providing tools for land stewards 
for, you know, their heritage and legacy and providing food and 
economic stability for their communities. I am happy today to 
share with you we have helped empower over 70 families and over 
300,000 acres across Texas.
    I wish I was here, you know, really to provide good news, 
but I am here to really kind of share instead the reality of 
what faces our land stewards across Texas and across this 
Nation. In the last five years, we have seen over 18,000 farms 
and ranches lost in Texas. We are seeing an increase of 1,200 
to 1,400 people moving to our state daily, an increase of a 
half a million people a year. This nexus is really driving, you 
know, issues for us as land producers to how do we stay in 
business.
    Texas A&M's research and the Texas land trends basically in 
2007 to 2012 were showing that we were losing 49 acres a day. 
As I look, Mr. Chairman, on my watch, as I have been sitting 
here with this great group here, we have lost another 49 acres 
in Texas. We are losing over 1,000 acres a day in Texas of our 
working lands that are being basically converted into the last 
crop, the crop of concrete.
    At TALT, we help landowners protect their legacies through 
voluntary conservation easements, but these tools are only 
possible because of the farm bill programs as the Agricultural 
Conservation Easement Program, the Regional Conservation 
Partnership Program, which combine federal, private, and state 
funding to make conservation financially viable. These are not 
just conservation programs; they are National Security 
programs. They ensure that future generations of Americans have 
access to healthy food, clean water, open space. They keep 
private working lands productive and in the hands of the people 
that know them the best. That is my fellow ranchers, farmers, 
and private foresters.
    As Congress works to reauthorize the farm bill, we urge you 
to maintain robust funding for our ASEP, ALE, and the RCPP 
programs so landowners can voluntarily protect their land while 
keeping it in production. This demand is seen at a demand that 
we have never seen before.
    We also ask for you to eliminate the adjusted gross income 
limitations from ASEP, ALE, because compensation for the 
purchase of a conservation easement is not a subsidy but a 
conveyance of a private real property.
    We also ask you to look at the Exempt Conservation Easement 
Program payments from future AGI, reduce administrative burdens 
that delay the project implementation and discourage 
participation. One viable tool that we have for streamlining 
implementation is through certified entities, which recognizes 
exceptional land trust and delegates authorities to these 
entities. Last, to support flexibility in these programs 
designed so that landowners and partners can effectively 
deliver these tools.
    I want to leave you with this, Chairman. In Texas, in a 
year's time, we lose over 370,000 acres. That is equivalent to 
losing over 8\1/2\ Washington, DC's. If we were able to retain 
rainfall on those lands, it would fill approximately 180 
billion water bottles, 180 billion water bottles. I think 
Lyndon B. Johnson stated it the best, ``Soil and water 
conservation starts where the first raindrop falls.'' That is 
on a farmer, that is on a rancher, that is on a private 
forester. No land, no water, there is no future for our future 
agriculturalists like we have behind us, so we must keep our 
working lands working and providing for all Americans.
    Thank you and God bless.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Ellis can be found on pages 
48-50 in the appendix.]
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Mrs. Dwyer.

STATEMENT OF MEGAN DWYER, DIRECTOR OF CONSERVATION AND NUTRIENT 
 STEWARDSHIP, ILLINOIS CORN GROWERS ASSOCIATION, COAL VALLEY, 
                            ILLINOIS

    Mrs. Dwyer. Good afternoon. It is an honor to be here today 
and an even greater honor to represent midwest farmers. Though 
some might call it multitasking madness, I come to you wearing 
several hats, fourth-generation farmer, certified crop advisor, 
ag professional, and mom. Our Illinois family farm grows corn, 
soybeans, alfalfa, and beef cattle. With my husband, we are 
raising the fifth generation. As you have heard, our oldest 
daughter is here with me today and will hopefully leave 
inspired.
    We are here to discuss conservation, something I have 
devoted my professional career to. As the Director of 
Conservation and Nutrient Stewardship for Illinois Corn, I 
strive to ensure that policies and regulatory efforts are 
grounded in both science and common sense. My goal is to bridge 
the gap between farm fields and policy and make the 
complexities of conservation feel as relatable as baking 
chocolate chip cookies.
    As NRCS celebrates 90 years, it is a good time to reflect. 
For decades, we have rightly focused on protecting our most 
vulnerable soils. I am here to ask us to think differently, to 
consider how programs can better protect our most productive 
soils.
    When you hear Illinois, odds are you think of Chicago. The 
reality is, about 70 percent of Illinois is farmland. That is 
24 million acres of cropland, about the size of nearly 1/3 of 
all U.S. cities combined. Our farm fields are a powerhouse of 
productivity, yet when it comes to federal conservation 
funding, we receive only a small fraction. From 2018 to 2022, 
Illinois received just 1.3 percent of EQIP funding. In 
comparison, Georgia received nearly three times that investment 
for 1/5 of the cropland.
    In 2024, only 6.4 of the 21.5 million in EQIP funds 
Illinois received supported cropland conservation. Thanks to a 
strong collaboration with Senator Durbin's office, the Illinois 
Corn Growers Association and the Illinois Department of Ag were 
able to secure an additional $15 million of traditional EQIP 
funds to address conservation priorities. This more than 
doubled the state's cropland EQIP budget, enabling targeted 
efforts to reduce nutrient loss and preserve topsoil. Those 
funds were contracted, but they highlighted the intense 
competition farmers face for Federal Conservation programs and 
the value of partnerships.
    Meaningful progress requires financial investments, and 
securing sufficient funding to fully support a state like 
Illinois with its 24 million acres of farmland takes a creative 
and strategic approach that recognizes we cannot fix the 
problem overnight. One way to sustain this momentum is 
incorporating IRA conservation funds into the farm bill 
baseline. If we fail to deliver modernized effective programs, 
technical assistance, and meaningful funding to our farmers, we 
can expect more outcomes like the 2023 and 2024 dust storms in 
central Illinois that closed major interstates and caused loss 
of life. Our approach can make a difference between success and 
failure. Too often we zero in on one granular issue or promote 
a one-size-fits-all solution without stepping back to consider 
the broader path to success.
    Now for the cookies. If I asked each of you to describe the 
perfect chocolate chip cookie, I would likely get 23 different 
answers. Some would say thin and crispy, some would say soft 
and chewy, maybe a few with nuts. Now imagine I told each of 
you to go bake your ideal cookie but did not give you a recipe. 
That is the challenge farmers face when trying to implement 
conservation practices. Even if I did give you all the same 
recipe, you would all get different results because no two 
ovens bake the same, just like no two farm fields respond the 
same way.
    Successful conservation does not happen by accident. It 
requires a strong partnership, reliable funding, trusted local 
expertise, and flexibility. Accessible field offices for NRCS 
and FSA, along with well-staffed agencies like EPA and U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife, ensure we have boots on the ground and every 
tool in the conservation toolbox. Public-private partnerships 
amplify this effect, while a strong safety net and technical 
assistance help drive real adoption.
    We could spend hours discussing the barriers, ranging from 
financial constraints, technical assistance, machinery, time, 
and the fact that over 70 percent of Illinois farmland is owned 
by someone other than the farm family tenant. I would prefer to 
focus on solutions. RCPP is one such solution, providing 
support that made Illinois corn's flagship initiative, 
Precision Conservation Management, possible. PCM is an 
economic-focused program that has proven we can far exceed the 
success of traditional conservation efforts by leveraging 
strategic private partnerships, providing boots on the ground, 
and allowing flexibility in implementation. The program's 
longstanding partnership with PepsiCo is just one example where 
leveraging public and private contributions generates $1.50 
going to farmers for every one federal dollar invested.
    Success will not come from rebranding programs for working 
lands. We must design entirely new approaches that recognize 
the uniqueness of each acre and meet farmers where they are at. 
We must reevaluate practice standards and decide if close 
enough is acceptable to achieve greater scalability or if the 
pursuit of perfection will limit our progress. We must consider 
how federal crop insurance can be supportive by recognizing the 
risk-reducing benefits of conservation, covering the transition 
to new practices, and offering flexibility for innovative 
approaches like growing cover crops ahead of your cash crop.
    Baby boomers currently own the majority of farmland across 
the United States, and within the next decade, their average 
age will reach 80. This puts us on the edge of a generational 
cliff. Without robust programs to help the next generation not 
only gain access to farmland, but also be economically equipped 
to adopt conservation practices, we risk losing our position as 
a global leader in production agriculture.
    I appreciate your time today and look forward to answering 
any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mrs. Dwyer can be found on pages 
51-58 in the appendix.]
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. A big thanks to all of our 
witnesses for being here today.
    We will now begin with one round of five-minute questions 
per Member, and it is good to see Mike Conaway here, the former 
Chair of House Agriculture. You have got two former Chairs that 
you worked with staring down at you, as they do with me every 
hearing.
    For all of the witnesses, anybody that wants to speak up, 
can you talk about why the locally led model of conservation 
delivery supported by NRCS where decisions are left to the 
individual producer has been so successful and how we can get 
more decision-making to the state and local level?
    Mr. Doyle. I will go ahead and speak to that. I think, as 
mentioned in many of our speeches already, we are so different. 
Every farm is different. Even within a farm, we have so much 
variability in soil, topography, the way fields drain, so I 
think it is up to our local NRCS engineers and technicians to 
help farmers, you know, create and find solutions that work for 
that individual farm. Every field will be handled, you know, 
differently, so I think that individual look at projects going 
forward, one size fits all, is not the way to go. I think the 
way that it is right now is working for us. Our close 
involvement at the local level, we can go up there, speak to 
them in person, is extremely important to all of us.
    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Anybody else?
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. I would just like to say, based on my 
personal experience with NRCS and also with the wildlife 
biologists that partner with Pheasants Forever, Quail Forever, 
that partner with USDA, these programs are so complex, and 
farming has gotten so much more complex than it was when I 
started farming in 1972. Technical assistance is desperately 
needed. When you look at the cadre of conservation programs 
from CRP to ASEP to different ones, and Fish and Wildlife 
Service was mentioned as well, if we do not have the technical 
assistance that is available to us now, I think these 
conservation programs are going to go by the wayside simply 
because the farmers and ranchers are not going to be utilizing 
them.
    You know, I cannot emphasize enough in this farm bill, 
based on my personal experience, how even though we realize we 
are in an atmosphere of budget cuts and needing to streamline 
and having spent a big part of my career at FSA, I understand 
how important that is, but there have got to be priorities, and 
technical assistance is one of those priorities. Also, the 
partnering with the wildlife biologists, Pheasants Forever, 
Quail Forever, they come out to the farm, they work closely 
with the farmer, and strictly voluntarily, the farmer can say, 
I want to do this, this, and this--that is what I did--and set 
up a conservation plan. Thank you for the question, and it is 
really important.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you.
    Mr. Blair. I would also like to speak on behalf of the 
conservation districts who are housed within our local USDA 
service centers. We are right there working with them hand in 
hand every day, and we are not costing the Federal Government 
anything by the work that is being done by these local 
conservation district employees. Some of them are technicians, 
some of them are more administrative, but we are right there 
day to day working hand in hand with NRCS.
    We are tied on the NRCS side to dollars for engineering. It 
is harder and harder to find qualified engineers that are 
willing to come to work for NRCS on the pay scale that is being 
provided by the U.S. Government.
    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Mrs. Dwyer?
    Mrs. Dwyer. I would add, looking at this in two buckets on 
the capacity, we need staff that have the capacity to serve the 
number of farmers in their area, but more importantly, we need 
that trusted relationship. A farmer wants to know that the 
people they are working with not only understand the resource 
concerns of their local area but truly want to see them succeed 
and understand their concerns. You cannot have that when you 
have technical assistance that is 50, 100 miles away or just a 
few in a state.
    Chairman Boozman. Very good.
    Mr. Doyle, in your testimony you mentioned a reservoir that 
was recently completed on your farm that utilized EQIP to 
complete the project. Tell us more about your experience 
working with NRCS and how important getting EQIP funding was to 
the financial viability of the project.
    Mr. Doyle. There is very limited funding available, but it 
is kind of like a waiting line. I think in my county alone 
there are about 2,000 acres of reservoirs, just for your 
knowledge. We water every crop that we grow in our county.
    We started the planning and application process pre-COVID, 
around 2019. Went in, talked to the technicians, you know, 
developed a plan, what is the best place to put it on the farm. 
You also have to realize that that 45 acres will never be 
farmed again. We took it out of production for the long term, 
but it is going to ensure that we have the available water in 
the future. You know, whatever crop we grow is very important 
to us.
    The process was extremely easy. It was very local. I think 
my county office is within 15 miles of our farm, so the 
accessibility to the technicians, the planners, the agents in 
the office was tremendous. We have a great staff at Poinsett 
County.
    The follow-through was slowed due to COVID. There were some 
issues on supplying of the pipe, the underground pipe, the dirt 
work. The dirt work expenses, and fuel cost alone went up 
tremendously, so the funding for those projects does not go as 
far as it once did.
    Then we wrapped up the project. We finally got to turn the 
pumps on last year. We followed that up with a cover crop plan 
to ensure the erosion was reduced on the farm and all of, you 
know, the soil health plan was in place because it is, you 
know, hopefully going to be there for the next generation or 
two on our farming operation. With that also, it helps our 
neighbors because we are not removing as much groundwater as we 
once did.
    Chairman Boozman. Senator Klobuchar.
    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    I mentioned that Leader Thune and I are continuing our work 
to make improvements to CRP and ensure that the USDA continues 
to offer the program and prioritize habitat. The CRP 
legislation we have worked on would improve access to grazing, 
provide more enrollment options for producers, and create 
certainty for the State Acres for Wildlife Enhancement 
practice.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma, I enjoyed our meeting earlier today. I know 
you have personal experience with CRP on your own farm. Can you 
explain how CRP can help both a farmer's bottom line and 
support wildlife and explain the importance of technical 
assistance from USDA or Pheasants Forever?
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. Thank you very much for the question, 
Ranking Member Klobuchar. I cannot say enough, as I mentioned 
before, about how important technical assistance is. I will 
answer that question first because without it, we cannot get 
these practices on the ground.
    As far as the Conservation Reserve Program, you know--and 
Chairman Boozman, I know how passionate you are about the 
Commodity Title and making sure that we have the concern that 
there is an economic assistance in this next farm bill for 
farmers. I would like to point out also just how the 
Conservation Title offers a safety net for farmers. On my own 
farm, I have taken the worst ground, the poorest ground that I 
have. We are not like the ``I'' states that have five feet of 
black loam soil. We have varied soil, we have some very good 
soils, and we have some very poor soils. I can take that poor 
ground--and I have done this over the years that I have 
farmed--and put that ground and roll that ground in CRP.
    Just this last year, one piece of ground that I had rolled 
in CRP, I put 16 acres into CRP. What that did last year, it 
raised the average yield, the soybean yield on that piece of 
ground by at least 10 bushels to the acre. Plus, I got a CRP 
payment for those 16 acres that I placed there.
    I think it is important that when we look at safety net for 
agriculture, we look at the CRP program and others, how we can 
take some of this land--and with the equipment that we have 
now, where we can pinpoint--I mean, I can look at a map coming 
off the combine, and I can see where the most productive ground 
is and target that ground and say, okay, we need to--this is 
not paying the bill, this is not paying for the inputs that I 
am putting on it.
    With that, I would like to say personally, I know how 
important these programs are, how we can pinpoint, how we can 
target. CRP is no longer considered the--you know, we put the 
whole landscape in, the whole farm is. We need to stop thinking 
about that and think about how it can be effectively used as a 
pinpoint tool to help operations get a better bottom line. 
Thank you.
    Senator Klobuchar. Very good. Thank you very much. I also 
mentioned the other bill that Senator Thune and I have. Could 
you quickly talk about how improved use of data that USDA 
collects strengthens ag research and makes it easier to figure 
out which conservation, just in 30 seconds here, because I have 
one more question?
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. Sure. Thank you for that question as well. 
The Ag Data Bill is really important to me, having spent more 
than half my career at FSA. Knowing the wealth of information, 
I have also been involved extensively with NRCS and crop 
insurance and knowing there is so much information that USDA 
gathers.
    Let me give you an example. I use cover crops on my farm, 
and there are so many different types of planting options when 
you put in a cover crop as far as the seed that you can use. 
There is also different planting methods. I have flown on my 
soybeans with an airplane. I have also drilled it in after we 
harvest. Those are kind of guessing games, as far as what is 
going to work best where if we had ag data where USDA could 
coalesce this data and come up with, so I could look at what 
they say and say, okay, this is----
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma [continuing]. going to work better on my land 
in this area, that is just an example of how that could work.
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.
    Mrs. Dwyer, I mentioned the wide-ranging workforce 
reductions that are currently going on at NRCS and FSA and the 
proposed elimination of conservation technical assistance. I 
know in Minnesota NRCS has lost 40 employees between January 
and March. That was before the projected next round of staffing 
cuts nationally of 2,400 NRCS, 1,100 FSA. Mrs. Dwyer, how will 
fewer staff at local USDA offices impact the work that farmers 
do?
    Mrs. Dwyer. Thank you. It is a great question. As I 
mentioned before, it comes down to relationships and those 
trusted relationships, as well as the knowledge and the 
expertise in these areas. You know, I think to your specific 
question, it is a little too soon for us to see the full 
impacts, but I will say we know for sure that if we expect to 
see less staff in these offices with the archaic IT and systems 
that they are using, we are going to continue to see long 
lines, delays in enrollment, struggles and frustrations with 
the farmers showing up, looking to get service and that 
technical assistance. I also think that is an opportunity where 
partnerships can come in, things like--I mentioned I am a 
certified crop advisor. I have taken advantage of the recent 
MOU between NRCS and the CCAs to allow more of a streamlined 
path for some private sector to offer some additional support 
to help offices that were already struggling to provide enough 
TA to farmers.
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.
    Chairman Boozman. Senator Ernst.
    Senator Ernst. Thank you, Chairman Boozman and Ranking 
Member Klobuchar, and thanks to our panel of witnesses for 
being here today. We really appreciate your testimony and your 
willingness to visit with us about the importance of 
conservation.
    I have the privilege of traveling all across Iowa, and I do 
not even have to travel river to river. I get it at home all 
the time. I come from a farm family. My hairstylist, I grew up 
with her husband who is a farmer. My dental hygienist the other 
day was giving me the lowdown. You know, her husband is a 
beginning farmer to the next community up, and so I hear a lot. 
Of course, this has been a big topic. We really need the farm 
bill done, and they want to know that the Title II conservation 
is also going to get completed.
    What they want to do, of course, we are talking about 
improving soil health, our water quality, and the long-term 
productivity, which some of you have addressed already. They 
face a lot of barriers with the rigid USDA standards. It really 
slows things down. I have reintroduced my Streamlining 
Conservation Practice Standards Act to modernize how USDA's 
Natural Resource Conservation Service updates its technical 
standards, and that will serve as a guide for many of the Title 
II farm bill programs. The bill would update the agency's 
process to require a regular review of existing conservation 
practice standards. It would create a public process for 
submitting and adopting new practices, and it would prioritize 
the integration of innovative tools like nutrient efficiency 
technologies. Biological fertilizer is one of those examples 
that is proven to improve plant growth.
    Ultimately, the goal is simple. Let us cut the red tape. 
Let us keep standards science-based and flexible, very key, and 
help farmers get conservation tools in use faster.
    I am really thankful that I have colleagues like Senator 
Durbin, Senator Marshall, and Senator Heinrich. They have also 
joined me in this effort as well. It is a good bipartisan 
product.
    Mrs. Dwyer, I will start with you. You work at the 
Intersection of Production Agriculture and Innovation as a 
farmer and with the Illinois Corn Growers, so can you maybe 
talk a little bit about the delays in updating practice 
standards? Do these create a barrier for innovation, 
particularly when it comes to nutrient management and soil 
health?
    Mrs. Dwyer. Thank you. I love this question. You know, I 
think you brought it up on looking at how practice standards 
are developed today. Right now, NRCS defaults to land-grant 
universities. Unfortunately, in Illinois, they do not even 
default to University of Illinois. They are going outside of 
Illinois to look at what those mean. I think it is, first and 
foremost, how can we get some of that boots-on-the-ground 
information, whether it is through CIGs and other NRCS programs 
and private programs, and actually utilize that data? You know, 
we are concerned and we know that data drives decisions, so how 
can we take the boots-on-the-ground information, as well as 
knowing that farmers are natural innovators? They are going to 
adopt technologies and precision ag that is going to outpace 
what we see in some of these standards. Ensuring the technology 
keeps up for what is actually happening on the farm and why we 
can be more innovative and flexible is absolutely crucial if we 
want to see conservation scalable and adopted at the pace that 
we need to meet the goals of things like the nutrient loss 
reduction strategy.
    Senator Ernst. Right, I love it. Thank you for that. I 
really appreciate your input and advocacy on that.
    Mr. Blair, conservation districts are often at the 
frontline. We have already heard a little bit about that, but 
how could increased transparency and public engagement in the 
conservation practice standard process improve trust and 
effectiveness at a local level?
    Mr. Blair. Trust is, you know, key, I think, in all of what 
we do. Making sure that the farmers and ranchers understand 
that they can trust not only the local conservation district, 
but also the NRCS employees in making sure the productivity of 
their soils are maximized in order to increase the amount of 
income that they can reach off their farms. It is very key, it 
is a very important part of what we are doing, and I look 
forward to learning more about your programs and getting those 
implemented.
    Senator Ernst. Yes, wonderful. Just in closing, I think 
trust is a big part of this. We have all of these young men and 
women, or men and women my age even, that are out working 
across these offices. You come from communities like ours. We 
are all intertwined, we all know each other, and we trust that 
they are going to do the best for our family farms and for our 
future generations. Our communities rely on that.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Bennet.
    Senator Bennet. Thank you very much, Chairman, for this 
important hearing. Thank you all for being here.
    Mr. Ellis, I have a question for you. As I think you 
probably know, in Colorado, conservation easements protect a 
huge amount of land. We have three million acres of critical 
habitats, agricultural land, and scenic landscapes, but current 
valuation methods often emphasize lost development potential, 
failing to account for the ecological, wildlife, water quality, 
and landscape connectivity benefits these lands provide. I have 
heard from producers all over my state that we need a more 
accurate and practical and modern approach to these valuations, 
one that truly reflects the long-term value of conserved 
agricultural land.
    I am sure you have had the benefit of thinking about this 
over the years. I would be curious about your recommendation 
for approaching easement valuation to ensure fair land 
assessments and support effective long-term conservation.
    Mr. Ellis. Yes, thank you, Senator Bennet. Yes, in fact, 
you know, I believe there are several reasons why we need to 
look at, you know, alternative methodologies. You know, first, 
conservation is about, you know, conserving ecological systems, 
so that includes, you know, raising and growing food and fiber. 
We should have a valuation system, you know, that is valuing 
conservation, not the elimination of development. I think 
unfortunately when we look at it today, while our conservation 
easements do limit, you know, the development, they should not 
be seen as an anti-development tool. They should really be seen 
as a conservation tool.
    I think one of the things, Senator Bennet, that we must, 
you know, kind of be careful with is we kind of start thinking 
of ensuring alternative methodologies, that we do not create 
speculative markets that incentivize investors over farms and 
ranch families, so I think this, you know, methodology we 
really need to, you know, look at, be very careful.
    I think it is really about stacking, right, and stacking 
value. Senator Bennet, I think of a great example is some of 
your work you have looked at of conservation easements on 
groundwater.
    Senator Bennet. Right.
    Mr. Ellis. Right? If we think about it from that aspect 
where we help empower those farmers, ranchers on that 
groundwater easement, and then we stack a traditional 
conservation on, you know, a land surface type of easement, 
right, and then we start adding that extra value.
    We also look at free markets and leveraging our public to 
private, and we have many markets of carbon markets, et cetera, 
where this can also layer in and also look at, you know, 
increased funding on carbon markets, especially with producers, 
especially one from the buyer side, right? We look on the buyer 
side, if that producer has a conservation easement, there is 
assurance on them that that investment is always going to be 
there long term.
    Senator Bennet. I appreciate that, and thanks for 
acknowledging the groundwater conservation. That came from 
producers in Colorado, that idea, and I think it makes a lot of 
sense. They understand that we are dealing with a fragile 
ecosystem here, that everybody rises and falls together in some 
sense, and we need to make sure that development is not 
necessarily always the answer, and preserving these watersheds 
often is, so I appreciate that.
    Mr. Chairman, I have got one more quick question, I hope, 
for Mr. Blair. Thank you for being here.
    In Colorado, farmers and ranchers are up against a lot, as 
they are all over the country, less water to work with, tough 
winters and soils that are quick to erode. Conservation looks 
different in every part of my state and all across the country. 
While federal programs can help provide tailored proactive 
support, these programs are stretched too thin, and this leaves 
too many producers without the technical assistance they need 
to prepare for drought, floods, and other environmental 
challenges.
    I wonder, Mr. Blair, how NRCS can expand standalone 
technical assistance to ensure that farmers and ranchers can 
access site-specific conservation planning, regardless of their 
ability or even desire to enter into a federal program?
    Mr. Blair. Thank you for that question, Senator. Colorado 
is one of my favorite states to spend some time in and enjoy--
--
    Senator Bennet. Come back anytime.
    Mr. Blair. You know, it is important, technical assistance, 
the work we do. Working together, not only with NRCS, but also 
with technical service providers within or across our states, 
help implement these programs and work together. We are doing 
that in just about every state across the Nation, working with 
our TSPs, our technical service providers, and those are people 
that are contract workers that work hand in hand with our 
conservation district and receive funds for the work that they 
are doing. There are ways to do that, the ways to continue to 
get the technical assistance to the producers and on the 
ground.
    Senator Bennet. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Boozman. Senator Hyde-Smith.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    My question also is for Mr. Blair. As you know, the 
Conservation Stewardship Program, CSP, and the Environmental 
Quality Incentives Program, EQIP, are very popular in 
Mississippi. One of the many benefits of these important 
working lands programs is that they allow private land to 
remain in production while farmers and ranchers implement 
various conservation practices.
    These programs are a win-win. Farmers are seeing increased 
productivity on their land through the conservation practices 
they implement, which, of course, improves the soil, water, and 
overall environmental quality of the land they rely on to feed 
us.
    A major change to CSP in the 2018 Farm Bill shifted it from 
a program limited by acres or annual enrollment to a program 
limited by total annual funding. While that does not sound like 
a major change, it has had a big impact on limiting future CSP 
enrollment. In the next farm bill, would you agree that 
Congress should invest in popular working land programs like 
CSP and EQIP? What are you hearing from any landowners who have 
applied for CSP or EQIP but have yet to be approved?
    Mr. Blair. Definitely, Senator Hyde-Smith, those are two 
important programs to the Mississippi Delta and to Mississippi 
in general, and we are at times not receiving enough funding 
for CSP or EQIP across the Nation, so they are very important 
to continue to fund those. I know in Mississippi we have got a 
great state conservationist who will take money from any other 
state that does not want to utilize their money and put those 
conservation practices on the ground.
    I am hearing the same thing you are hearing. Our farmers 
need more CSP money, and the recent changes in CSP has limited 
our Delta farmers in Mississippi, as well as those others 
across the state. They are both very vital, important programs, 
and NACD supports both of those to be funded fully and allow 
our farmers and producers to receive the benefits from both 
EQIP and CSP. Thank you.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you. Conservation Districts have 
been key partners in the construction and maintenance of flood 
control infrastructure through the USDA Watershed and Flood 
Prevention Operations program. This important program has been 
utilized in Mississippi to help reduce flood, erosion, and 
sedimentation damage in various watersheds. As you highlighted 
in your testimony, maintaining this infrastructure is essential 
for protecting our citizens, communities, small businesses, and 
producers.
    What are you hearing from your members in Mississippi about 
the need to construct and maintain critical water 
infrastructure? How can Congress better support that work?
    Mr. Blair. Thank you again, Senator, for that question. Our 
Watershed Program is very key in Mississippi. We are number two 
to Oklahoma as far as the number of watersheds. I have a 
watershed lake on my property. It has been rehabbed once 
already. We have a number of our watersheds that were built in 
the 1960's that are needing some rehab work done on those, so 
funding for watersheds and watershed rehab is very key going 
forward.
    We have a number of cities that have grown underneath these 
watersheds, and we need to make sure that those dams do not 
fail. We have already had dam failures across the Nation and in 
Mississippi, so it is very key.
    We also have a lake, a reservoir in Mississippi that the 
dam failed in North Mississippi, Arkabutla Lake, and we need to 
get that levee rebuilt to protect our farmers across the 
northern part of the Mississippi Delta, so any action that you 
can take to help us with that, we would greatly appreciate it.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Great. My last question is for Mr. 
Tjeerdsma. In your testimony, you discussed the Agricultural 
Conservation Easement Program and the long-term certainty it 
provides landowners. In my state, wetland easements are widely 
used in the Mississippi Delta, where several counties are 
seeing near-record enrollment. These easements play a key role 
in protecting critical wildlife habitat while creating long-
term recreational and economic value for Mississippians. In the 
next farm bill, how can Congress reduce regulatory burdens in 
the Wetland Reserve Easement Program to enable it to enroll 
more landowners and build on its successes?
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. I think, as Senator Ernst talked about with 
the bill that she and others have introduced--having spent more 
than half my career at USDA Farm Service Agency, I will say 
there is an obsession with process, and this is something that 
has really--you know, I would ask you as a Committee, and I 
think you are going on the right track, that is probably one of 
the biggest deterrents and why we need so much technical 
assistance is the complexity of the programs, the complexity of 
the sign-up process that we have to go through, whether it is 
one of the easement programs under ACEP. Sometimes throwing 
more money, making more money available is not always the 
answer. It is how can we make the program more workable? How 
can we make the sign-up process easier? Especially when we are 
looking at the reduction in cuts or reduction in staff, there 
has got to be a balance, and I think that balance is to 
simplify the sign-up process, and I hope this Committee can 
work on that. Thank you very much, excellent question.
    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you very much.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Durbin.
    Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Two years ago, my wife was visiting family and called me 
and told me something is happening on Interstate 55, which is 
just south of Springfield. She said we have been diverted, and 
I have to go through Taylorville, which is another 30, 40 
miles. It must have been an accident. Well, there sure was. In 
May 2023 on Interstate 55 south of Springfield, there was a 72-
vehicle pileup that took the lives of eight people. The reason? 
A dust storm. The University of Illinois recently completed a 
study that concluded the lack of ground cover and dry 
conditions were contributing to that.
    Mrs. Dwyer, you and I probably discussed this before. You 
indicated Illinois ranks very low in conservation dollars sent 
in by USDA. We need more. Can you explain why we have so few?
    Mrs. Dwyer. I would love to know why we do not see the 
proportion of dollars we would like to see. As we have heard 
from some other panelists, I think it is also important to note 
that, especially in a state with the size of Illinois, it is 
not going to be dollars alone that fix this. It is the process.
    We think about 22 million acres of corn and soybeans, yet 
we have about a million acres of cover crops. That leaves a 
glaring hole on what needs to happen, and the question is why. 
It is looking at this instead of focusing on the practice of 
cover crops, what is it going to take to assist a farmer in 
that transition and to holistically support that systems 
change?
    We have members that have gone into NRCS and have been 
denied six years in a row for their EQIP application. It is a 
combination of the funding, the burdensome application process. 
You know, I am honestly shocked that they have gone in year 
after year, and now it is almost a joke, if you will, on is it 
going to be another year? How many years can I be denied in a 
row? It is figuring out how can we bring in federal dollars, 
partnering with some really good private partners that want to 
invest for similar goals and priorities, and then bringing in 
that technical assistance to help make this scalable with 
flexible programs.
    Senator Durbin. What I heard from Mr. Doyle was that the 
producer has to make the decision early on to take land out of 
production in the near and short term, understanding in the 
long term there is real value to the operation. Mrs. Dwyer, are 
we dealing with the commitment being there to move forward, but 
just the lack of resources making it?
    Mrs. Dwyer. Yes, it is a combination of things, and I think 
that for a state like Illinois, we need to be focused on what 
can we do for our working lands. It is going to be a really 
challenging sell to convince a farmer in central Illinois to 
take some of the most productive fertile ground out and put it 
into a program like a general CRP program that is going to 
remove that from production for 10 to 15 years. We need to look 
at how can we get practices like cover crops, strip-till, no-
till to become the commonplace on those acres, and that is 
going to take the flexibility and innovative programs that we 
do not have today.
    Senator Durbin. One of the things I thought about when we 
discuss conservation is obviously what we are sending down the 
Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico, or its new name. My 
question is, is there any measurement that you can rely on that 
suggests that we are doing the right thing in reducing runoff 
of soil and chemical runoff?
    Mrs. Dwyer. Yes, we are making progress. I think the other 
thing to consider is we are not trying to make this progress in 
a bubble. We are seeing excessive rainfall. We are seeing 
bigger, more intensive rainfall events, and that makes those 
goalposts move. We need to be thinking as well on what are we 
doing in terms of the additional flow, and how can we 
incorporate technology and different practices to ensure that 
nutrient application is happening at the right time, at the 
right place, at the right rate.
    I would say one thing that we have yet to discuss today is 
there are really no programs outside of--Minnesota has a great 
program and example on cost-sharing and helping with equipment. 
If farmers cannot access the very costly capital improvements 
on some of this precision technology, it is going to be really 
hard to help us to truly meet those goals.
    Senator Durbin. Do you have any idea what our average 
productivity is in corn bushels per acre in Illinois?
    Mrs. Dwyer. Well, we do have the highest yielding county in 
the country. We can claim that.
    Senator Durbin. Which one is that?
    Mrs. Dwyer. McLean.
    Senator Durbin. That is what I thought. It has been that 
way for a long time.
    Mrs. Dwyer. It has.
    Senator Durbin. Do you have any idea what the production is 
in that acreage?
    Mrs. Dwyer. We are well over 200 bushels.
    Senator Durbin. Well over 200. You give reference here to 
peaking in 1950. The United States has lost nearly a quarter of 
its farmland, an average of 11,000 acres per day. Do you have 
any idea in previous years what the corn productivity was on 
any base acreage?
    Mrs. Dwyer. Oh, we have grown exponentially. I mean, for my 
great-grandfather and my grandfather, you know, if they would 
have saw 100 bushels, they would not have known what to do. Now 
most of the farmers, especially in central Illinois, if they 
see something less than 230, they are probably disappointed. We 
have doubled and in some cases approaching tripling what that 
productivity has accomplished.
    Senator Durbin. Do you believe there is still upside 
potential?
    Mrs. Dwyer. I do.
    Senator Durbin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Justice.
    Senator Justice. Well, Mr. Chairman, thank you so much, and 
thank you all for being here. You know, it is really meaningful 
in my world for you to be here.
    Now, let me just tell you this. I am an absolute soft-
spoken but direct human being, you know? I have never wanted 
anything. I do not want anything for being here for me. With 
all that being said, I would tell you I am probably the most 
impatient guy in the room. I am the newest guy, you know?
    Also, in regard to conservation, I would really surprise 
you by saying this, but there could be somebody in all these 
buildings here that have walked more miles in the woods or 
spent more time with a flyrod on a stream or absolutely 
followed and watched the discipline and the beauty of more 
birddogs than I.
    You know, with all that being said, in addition to that, I 
have worked on constant conservation projects on all of our 
lands in multiple, multiple states and loved every minute of 
it.
    Now, the thing that I do not understand is just this. You 
know, I have the good fortune of being on the Energy Committee 
and the good fortune of being on the Ag Committee. We are just 
surrounded by great people. That is all there is to it.
    Here is the deal. If you are this impatient guy and you 
truly have done a lot, a lot, a lot of this work and you know 
just how much the conservation programs that we have been able 
to do help us as farmers, help us with our waters, help us with 
our soil erosion, help us with all the wildlife that we have 
been able to create and help in every way. With all that being 
said, it touches all of our souls, absolutely every single one 
of you.
    The bottom line of the whole thing is just as simple to me. 
Someway, somehow, not only the world, but we, right here in 
these great buildings, we have got to someway, somehow realize 
that just in a very short order, we are going to be in an 
energy situation in this country that is not good. That is all 
there is to it. If we continue down the path of what we are 
doing with our farmers and ranchers, it is going to be a bad 
day.
    With that being said, we are trying to get by constantly, 
constantly on funding a program with $1 when it needs $10. The 
magnitude of the $10 in the scope of everything that is going 
on here is nothing. It is just absolutely a gnat on a dinosaur.
    Why cannot we just see--I mean, I have always approached 
things from a business guy's standpoint. You best better take 
care of the important items. Why cannot we just see that 
someway, somehow, we have got to have energy, and we have got 
to have food. With all that being said, why cannot we just take 
care of what we have to take care of?
    You are doing unbelievable work. There are all kinds of 
folks here, especially this Chairman down here, who is really, 
really special, Leader Thune. Many, many people really special.
    I could ask you 50 questions. I could ask you 5,000 
questions. You could absolutely--you have to know that I was 
there, I think, when the Conservation Reserve Program started. 
You know, I have seen it. I have seen the great work you do. I 
have seen how you do work with three parts to an 85,000-part 
puzzle, and you still do it. You should be really, really 
proud.
    Someway, somehow, we have got to wake up. We have got to 
wake up all across the board because we have got to stand up 
for what we got to have. Every single country in this world, no 
matter how big or how small, every single country, the more 
energy they have, the longer their people live and the 
healthier they are. We are going to have a meltdown on energy 
without any question. If we do not watch out, we are going to 
have a meltdown on our ag side as well.
    We have got to wake up. We have got to wake up, America. 
That is all there is to it. I will do everything I can, but I 
am absolutely--I am too impatient to not get frustrated. You 
know, we have got to have a farm bill, and we have got to have 
the proper funding for conservation.
    Thank you.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you, Senator Justice. Senator 
Slotkin.
    Senator Slotkin. Goodness, I saw my seniors come in here, 
and I thought I was bumped.
    First of all, I am sorry to be asking these questions so 
close to you that I can almost spit on you. I am sorry.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Slotkin. I have been trying to get out of the way 
so you can make eye contact with those asking you questions. 
Thank you for being here, all of you.
    I live on my family farm in Holly, Michigan. We lease all 
the land now to a soybean farmer. I want to thank you for what 
you do. We are big believers in Michigan on the conservation 
programs and on incentivizing farmers, so carrots, not sticks 
on conservation work. I think it is a win-win for everybody. 
They are completely oversubscribed and underfunded. We want 
more, more, more in all of those programs. Our farmers are big 
believers in them.
    My question is, you know, I had a farmers townhall maybe 
about three weeks ago now, and they were talking to me about 
the loss of some USDA staff. I know that about 2,400 
conservation staff have been relieved, and I am trying to get a 
sense of the impact. Anyone who wants to jump in. You know, 
farmers, as Senator Ernst said, they like to have the person 
they know to call and say what is happening, what is going on, 
and we are feeling like we are losing that. Can someone weigh 
in here on the impact?
    Mr. Doyle. I can speak to the State of Arkansas. Thank you 
for asking the question. I serve on the American Soybean 
Association with some wonderful Michigan farmers, and I know--
--
    Senator Slotkin. Yes.
    Mr. Doyle [continuing]. you all do great work. The programs 
are oversubscribed. I believe Fiscal Year 2023, 25 percent of 
the projects that were applied for were funded, so a very small 
amount. The money is tight.
    In the State of Arkansas, as I mentioned earlier, on our 
project, we had great access to them. You know, my theory is 
that they are very good at what they do, but they are just a 
few years from retirement. I do not see that younger class or 
the ability of students who go and get their sole degrees at 
universities or agronomy as standing up to replace them, so 
that probably scares me more.
    I think in Arkansas; the staffing issue is okay. There is 
talk about reduction.
    Senator Slotkin. Yes.
    Mr. Doyle. I am sure every county and state will be looked 
at and see if there needs to be changes.
    Senator Slotkin. Yes. I got a little confused by my timing. 
Do I still have some timing left? The clock was doing some 
funky things. Am I okay? Okay. Sorry, guys.
    The second question I have is on wetlands, okay? We are all 
supportive. Anyone in the conservation world cares about 
wetlands. We are big duck hunters in Michigan. We care about 
wetlands from a whole bunch of different angles, but a wet spot 
on a field is not a wetland. I say that as someone who has a 
proud wet spot in the field across the street from my house, 
which drives me absolutely crazy. It is not a wetland.
    How do we get this right and conserve and protect what we 
need to protect but do not over-index to the point where a 
farmer is having to protect a wet spot in the field that has 
been there for 35 years? Anybody want to take a stab?
    Mr. Doyle. If I may also----
    Senator Slotkin. Well, let me----
    Mr. Doyle. Yes, ma'am.
    Senator Slotkin [continuing]. spread the love around here.
    Sir, please go ahead.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. Thanks for the question, Senator. Coming 
from South Dakota, the Prairie Pothole Region----
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Tjeerdsma [continuing]. we have a lot of similar 
issues. Although I think the problem is better solved or better 
addressed now than it has been in the past, I think what we 
need to look at is having NRCS do additional wetland 
determinations because you are exactly right. You know, there 
are farmable wetlands. It is a complicated process as far as 
the determinations. I think a redetermination of wetlands would 
probably be an order that I think would help solve that 
problem.
    Senator Slotkin. Great. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Boozman. Senator Welch.
    Senator Welch. You know, I just want to follow-up on that. 
If we are going to be re-looking at the wetlands, can we do 
that with a smaller rather than larger staff? Well, we cannot, 
right?
    Yes, I mean, we are so, in Vermont, appreciative of the 
work that USDA has done. We are really concerned, as I think a 
lot of people are, and Senator Justice as well, about the 
staffing cuts because we had a staff aspirational level, and 
our actual numbers were a good deal below that. Now, since the 
buyouts and the DOGE cuts, it has really been significantly 
compromised.
    My experience with the USDA in Vermont is it is really 
efficient. You know, actually, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, 
what is so wonderful about it is, like, farmers trust you guys, 
and that trust is in short supply.
    I guess you have been asked by others about the funding 
cuts, so I am not going to keep asking about it but just join 
my colleagues who are concerned about it and express my 
appreciation and admiration for the work that has been done.
    With the loss of USDA, does anybody see a way forward where 
we can be successful doing the work that has to be done with 
significant reductions in staff? Mr. Blair, do you want to take 
a stab at that?
    Mr. Blair. Yes, I would be glad to. Thank you, Senator 
Welch, for the question. We are concerned about it, but we are 
resilient, like all farmers and ranchers are. We feel like 
there is a way forward. We do need to keep our employees, as 
many as we can. We have lost employees through retirement and 
other programs. The terminations that occurred early on was key 
because those were a lot of upcoming new employees that had 
been trained and were well prepared for a long-term career in 
conservation----
    Senator Welch. Yes, you know, let me interrupt you. That is 
right. I do not think any of us here are against looking at any 
program, kicking the tires, how can we do it better, where can 
we reduce, where do we need some more resources? My observation 
is that it was a situation where folks came in and had a goal, 
and then a lot of notices were sent out to people terminating 
them from their jobs. It was in advance of taking a look at 
what the function was, how do you do it, and how can you do it 
better. I think there is some damage that has been done as a 
result of the way in which it rolled out.
    Let us say that after the dust settles and it is settling 
now, there is a conclusion that in a lot of our state programs 
we have to, in fact, re-resource. I mean, Mr. Ellis, can you 
just describe how we would proceed to do that?
    Mr. Ellis. Yes, I mean, I think the key, Senator, is, you 
know, I am a half-glass-full type of person, right? I think it 
is about collaboration and partnerships, and we are going to 
have to rely on that to help our farmers and ranchers across to 
kind of reach some of that. I think a lot of this----
    Senator Welch. Well, you know, I just want to be candid. 
You are all half-full. Probably you are full-full. You cannot 
be in agriculture without being half-full, right? I mean, you 
have to disregard experience and continue to hope and show up. 
God bless you that you do that. At a certain point you have got 
to get concrete. You know, if we have lost 10 or 15 or 20 
percent of the staff and we still have the same job or more, 
how are we going to proceed?
    I guess I cannot ask for an answer on that, but is that a 
shared concern that you have? How do we put this back together 
again?
    All right. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. Senator?
    Senator Welch. Yes.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. I would like to say one thing.
    Senator Welch. Sure.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. When you talk about the staff shortage--I am 
here representing Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever.
    Senator Welch. Right.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. My whole career in Washington we talked 
about years ago, and it is still even more vital now, how do we 
leverage private entities, private funds with federal?
    Senator Welch. Right.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. I would like to use the example of Pheasants 
Forever, Quail Forever where we have the wildlife biologists. 
We have over 400 people, 370 or 80 I think that actually share 
with USDA. I think that is one path. We need to leverage 
private funds to help with the technical assistance and making 
sure we have money for the organizations that are doing that 
and even expand that so that we are not spending all federal 
dollars.
    Senator Welch. Right. Well, that is interesting because, of 
course, that is a model that is used with our National Park 
Service and in some cases with good effect. We cannot transfer 
all of the burden to the private sector----
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. Right.
    Senator Welch [continuing]. and the philanthropic sector.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. I think if we leverage it----
    Senator Welch. Yes.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma [continuing]. and do it partially----
    Senator Welch. Yes.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma [continuing]. I think that would help.
    Senator Welch. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Tjeerdsma. Sure.
    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Have you got anything?
    Senator Klobuchar. No.
    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Well, thank you again to all 
of our witnesses and our Committee Members for their 
participation. As always, we appreciate my staff, Senator 
Klobuchar's staff for making these things happen.
    The record will remain open for five business days. With 
that, today's hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:36 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

      
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                            A P P E N D I X

                              May 13, 2025

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                         QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

                              May 13, 2025

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