[Senate Hearing 119-44]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
. S. Hrg. 119-44
BURGUM NOMINATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
to
CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF DOUGLAS J. BURGUM
TO BE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR
__________
JANUARY 16, 2025
__________
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60-020 WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
MIKE LEE, Utah, Chairman
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho RON WYDEN, Oregon
STEVE DAINES, Montana MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
TOM COTTON, Arkansas MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
DAVID McCORMICK, Pennsylvania ANGUS S. KING, Jr., Maine
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi ALEX PADILLA, California
LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
Wendy Baig, Majority Staff Director
Patrick J. McCormick III, Majority Chief Counsel
Jasmine Hunt, Minority Staff Director
Sam E. Fowler, Minority Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Lee, Hon. Mike, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Utah............ 1
Heinrich, Hon. Martin, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from New
Mexico......................................................... 3
Hoeven, Hon. John, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota.............. 5
Cramer, Hon. Kevin, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota............. 14
WITNESS
Burgum, Douglas J., nominated to be Secretary of the Interior.... 16
ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 126
Alkire, Janet:
Letter for the Record dated January 10, 2025................. 7
Letter for the Record dated January 11, 2025................. 198
All Pueblo Council of Governors:
Letter for the Record........................................ 127
American Catfishing Association et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 128
American Council of Engineering Companies:
Letter for the Record........................................ 130
American Exploration and Mining Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 131
American Forest and Paper Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 133
American Gas Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 134
Biteman, Bo et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 136
Burgum, Douglas J.:
Opening Statement............................................ 16
Written Testimony............................................ 19
Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 74
Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma:
Letter for the Record........................................ 138
Chukchansi Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 140
Citizens for Responsible Energy Solutions:
Letter for the Record........................................ 141
Coalition of Large Tribes:
Letter for the Record........................................ 27
Coeur d'Alene Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 142
(The) Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes of the Flathead
Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 144
Cramer, Hon. Kevin:
Opening Statement............................................ 14
Cramton, Jack:
Communication for the Record................................. 135
Curley, Crystalyne:
Letter for the Record........................................ 201
Domestic Energy Producers' Alliance:
Letter for the Record........................................ 146
Eklutna, Inc.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 147
GLAAD:
Letter for the Record........................................ 149
Great Plains Tribal Chairmen's Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 8
Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
Opening Statement............................................ 3
Heritage Waters Coalition:
Letter for the Record........................................ 151
Hispanics in Energy:
Letter for the Record........................................ 152
Hoeven, Hon. John:
Opening Statement............................................ 5
Indian Gaming Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 153
Institute of Makers of Explosives:
Letter for the Record........................................ 154
Koi Nation of Northern California:
Letter for the Record........................................ 155
Lee, Hon. Mike:
Opening Statement............................................ 1
Little Shell Chippewa Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 156
Lower Yellowstone Irrigation Project:
Letter for the Record........................................ 157
Lytton Rancheria:
Letter for the Record........................................ 158
Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 10
Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 159
Menominee Indian Tribe of Wisconsin:
Letter for the Record........................................ 160
Moapa Band of Paiutes:
Letter for the Record........................................ 161
Montana Trappers Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 162
NAFOA:
Letter for the Record........................................ 172
National Alliance of Forest Owners et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 163
National Mining Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 165
National Rural Electric Cooperative Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 167
National Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 169
National Trappers Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 170
National Tribal Energy Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 171
National Water Resources Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 148
Navajo Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 174
Neiman, Chip et al.:
Letter for the Record........................................ 175
NSSF:
Letter for the Record........................................ 177
Oglala Sioux Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 179
Osage Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 181
Outdoor Heritage Coalition:
Letter for the Record........................................ 182
Outdoor Recreation Roundtable:
Letter for the Record........................................ 183
Pala Band of Mission Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 185
Pascua Yaqui Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 186
Portland Cement Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 187
Pueblo of Santa Ana:
Letter for the Record........................................ 188
Puyallup Tribe of Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 189
RV Industry Association:
Letter for the Record........................................ 190
San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 192
Santa Clara Pueblo:
Letter for the Record........................................ 194
Seminole Nation of Oklahoma:
Letter for the Record........................................ 195
Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate of the Lake Traverse Reservation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 11
Southern Ute Indian Tribe:
Letter for the Record........................................ 196
Spirit Lake Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 12
Tribal Alliance of Sovereign Indian Nations:
Letter for the Record........................................ 199
Tunica-Biloxi Tribe of Louisiana:
Letter for the Record........................................ 200
Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians:
Letter for the Record........................................ 13
U.S. Chamber of Commerce:
Letter for the Record........................................ 202
Velasquez, Kasey:
Letter for the Record........................................ 204
Viejas Tribal Government:
Letter for the Record........................................ 203
Yavapai-Apache Nation:
Letter for the Record........................................ 205
BURGUM NOMINATION
----------
THURSDAY, JANUARY 16, 2025
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Mike Lee,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE LEE,
U.S. SENATOR FROM UTAH
The Chairman. Good morning, and welcome to the Senate
Energy and Natural Resources Committee. This is a hearing that
we are holding today to consider Governor Doug Burgum of North
Dakota to be the Secretary of the Interior. It is an honor and
a privilege to serve in this capacity as Chairman during such a
pivotal moment for our nation and issues surrounding its energy
needs and land management policies.
I want to extend a warm welcome to Governor Doug Burgum,
and to his wife, Kathryn, thank you for being here. And thank
you both for joining us today, and you will have a chance in a
moment to introduce anyone else in the audience who is here
with you today that you would like to.
Governor Burgum, your nomination to lead the Department of
the Interior comes at an urgent time, as Americans under the
policies of the Biden Administration are suffering from
skyrocketing energy prices that drive up the cost of everything
from gas to groceries, from housing to healthcare, to
restrictive land use policies that tend to stifle growth
generally. The challenges facing American families are mounting
and they are staggering.
This past November, voters decided to send a clear message.
They demanded bold leaders willing to break from the status quo
and take a fresh approach, one less likely to result in this
awful pattern of inflation in which we found ourselves over the
last four years. Your nomination has garnered remarkable
support from tribes, from organizations, businesses, and people
of all stripes and backgrounds, particularly those who were
most uniquely and directly affected by the U.S. Department of
the Interior and its policies. The dozens of letters of
support, nationwide, further underscore your reputation as a
leader, one who is committed to change, committed to fostering
relationships, and they reflect pretty widespread confidence in
your vision and in your readiness to lead this organization.
The Department of the Interior, of course, plays a central
role in addressing many of these challenges, particularly in
states like Utah, my state, where federal land management
shapes nearly every aspect of our day-to-day life because,
well, the Federal Government owns two-thirds of the land, about
67 percent in my state. And there are other members of this
Committee who represent other public land states who understand
the relationship between the Department you have been called to
lead and their day-to-day lives. Nearly one-fifth of the land
in the United States is under the jurisdiction of the U.S.
Department of the Interior. In my state, it's much higher than
that, of course. And this influences everything from energy
development, to public land access, tribal relations, and
wildlife management. In Utah, where the Federal Government
controls more than two-thirds of the land, the impact of these
policies is profound. The decisions made in Washington ripple
through our economy and our communities in ways that are
unmistakable and not always positive.
Unfortunately, these policies have taken a troubling turn
during the Biden Administration. Expanding national monuments
like Bears Ears and Grand Staircase without meaningful input
from local communities has jeopardized access and harmed the
locals, who call these places home. The Public Lands Rule and
restrictive management plans have placed unnecessary and often
insurmountable barriers in the way of responsible resource
development and land access. On his first day in office,
President Biden issued a moratorium on oil and gas leasing,
severely damaging our energy security, and locking away
resources we needed to power our homes and our economy.
Now, over time, these decisions have revealed a pattern of
disregard for the multiple-use mandate that federal land
management is supposed to uphold, and to which it has been
subject for nearly 50 years. The consequences of these policies
extend, of course, far beyond Utah. As wildfires devastate
California, it is clear that mismanagement of public lands has
consequences that often reach far beyond rural areas. Federal
agencies must reevaluate their approach to wildfire prevention,
prioritizing forest management strategies that mitigate the
risk of catastrophic blazes. Utah and other western states know
too well the devastation that these fires cause, and addressing
this crisis must be a very key priority for the Department.
Reversing course will, of course, require bold leadership
and a willingness to embrace innovative solutions. The
Department of the Interior must take a hard look at the leasing
restrictions of the last few years, which have steered
development toward low-potential areas while blocking access to
high-value resources, like critical minerals. These are the
building blocks for our economy and our national defense and we
can't afford to let bureaucratic delays jeopardize our future.
Housing shortages across the West present another daunting
challenge that we have to face. By working with state and local
governments to identify underutilized federal lands, the
Department could finally, meaningfully alleviate the housing
crisis in places like Utah, where the demand for affordable
homes far exceeds supply. Bills like my HOUSES Act would
provide a long-term strategy and a strong framework for such
partnerships, showing that federal land policy can drive
solutions rather than creating obstacles. The Colorado River, a
lifeline for millions across the West, faces growing threats.
Effective communication and support from the Department of the
Interior as states negotiate the river's future will be
critical to safeguarding that vital resource.
Our national parks also require renewed attention. These
iconic landscapes are a source of pride and a major economic
driver for the gateway communities surrounding them. According
to some polls, they are one of the few features of the Federal
Government that people actually like, so we have got to take
care of them. The Department must work to balance accessibility
with conservation, ensuring that visitors can enjoy these
treasures without compromising the future. This will require
stronger partnerships with local stakeholders to address
infrastructure needs and manage visitor impacts.
On the regulatory front, the misuse of the Endangered
Species Act has caused significant harm by halting development
projects and undermining state authority. While the ESA is an
essential tool for protecting imperiled species, it must be
applied judiciously and in coordination with local governments
to avoid unnecessary conflict.
Governor Burgum, your track record uniquely positions you,
in particular, to lead the Department of the Interior during
this challenging time. Your vision and your leadership will be
instrumental to restoring balance to federal policies and
ensuring that public lands are managed with accountability and
with care. Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these
challenges and charting a new course that reflects the
principles of federalism and respect for local communities.
Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these challenges
and charting a new course, and I invite you to visit Utah as
soon as you have a chance to see firsthand the opportunities
and the challenges we face.
The hearing that we are having today marks the beginning of
an essential conversation about the future of the Department of
the Interior, and I look forward to hearing your perspective
and exploring ways that we can work together to address these
pressing issues.
Thanks again for your willingness to serve, and I really
look forward to our discussions today. I am going to turn the
time over now to our Ranking Member, Senator Martin Heinrich
from New Mexico.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH, U.S. SENATOR FROM
NEW MEXICO
Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman, and Governor Burgum,
welcome to the Energy and Natural Resources Committee.
We had a great conversation last week. I am very much
looking forward to hearing your answers to the questions today.
And I, too, want to begin by acknowledging the horrific
wildfires in California over the last couple of weeks. Having
spoken to many of my members on the dais, I know you are going
to get some questions about that, and in particular about
firefighters, and how we make sure that they are supported.
The Department of the Interior has responsibility for an
incredibly broad array of issues, from conserving the places
that Americans love to spend time with their families, to
protecting and recovering our most iconic wildlife species, to
delivering water to cities and farms across the West and
fulfilling our nation's trust responsibilities to tribal
nations. Pretty much any job that involves responsibilities
that range from elementary school students and health care to
bison is a pretty big job. Public lands are where we go to camp
and hike and hunt and fish and spend time with our families.
They are where our veterans go to seek the peace and solitude
that their service to our country could not always provide. And
while there are some who argue that the very existence of
public lands--places like Yosemite or the Bitterroot National
Forest--is unconstitutional, most Americans know that the idea
of lands that belong to everyone, no matter where they live or
who their parents are or how thick or thin their wallet is, is
one of the most democratic ideas of our nation. I hope you will
join me in keeping public lands in public hands.
The Interior Department is also the leader in meeting our
nation's trust responsibility to tribal nations and upholding
the treaty commitments that we, as a nation, made to tribes and
their members. As a nation, as we discussed in my office, we
routinely fall short of meeting those commitments. We can and
we must do better.
As the relentless pace of climate change brings bigger
floods, hotter summers, higher winds, as we have seen in
California, and diminished snowpack, which we are experiencing
in New Mexico, it is also driving the long-term aridification
of the western United States. Over the next 50 years, it is
expected that New Mexico will have 25 percent less water than
we have had historically. And we are not alone in that. The
Colorado River, which provides drinking water for 40 million
people, irrigates billions of dollars' worth of crops, provides
essential habitat for fish and wildlife, and will likely never
return to those early 20th century flows that we used to be
able to expect. Through the Bureau of Reclamation, the
Department of the Interior must play an active role in helping
the West transition to that new water reality.
And as you know, the Interior Department is also an energy
department. As we make the transition to a cleaner energy
economy, the land and water managed by the Department will play
an indispensable role in producing the energy that we need, as
well as facilitating the ability to move that energy around the
country. From geothermal and hydrogen, to solar and wind, the
Department's work is at the center of our energy future.
Governor, I very much look forward to hearing your plans on
all of these topics and more, and I think we will have some
very active questions from all of our members today.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.
We are now going to hear introductions from the North
Dakota delegation.
First, we will hear from Senator Hoeven, and then in a
moment, from Senator Cramer.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN HOEVEN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Chairman Lee, and also Ranking
Member Heinrich, I appreciate that, and thanks for holding this
hearing today.
Doug, Governor, welcome to you, and Kathryn, welcome to you
and Doug, to your whole team. It's great to see you guys.
Thanks for your incredible service on behalf of North Dakota,
and it really is an honor today to introduce you to our Energy
and Natural Resources Committee.
Senator Cramer, welcome to you, as well. Good to have you
here.
I am not sure where to start. I have known Doug for more
than 30 years, and we have working in various capacities for
the duration, and as well as just being a very good friend,
both Doug and Kathryn, to myself and my wife, Mikey--so, on
behalf of her as well, greetings. And thanks for your
willingness to serve.
Of course, grew up in Arthur, North Dakota and then went to
school at NDSU, home of the Bison--the mighty Bison--and then
went to a lesser-known school for--Stanford, I think--for an
MBA, right? But after that, went to work for McKinsey
Consulting. My staff wrote up this beautiful introduction, but
I think I am just going to talk a little bit about our shared
time together and friendship. He came back, and actually there
was this nascent software company, Great Plains Software, and
he, along with some of his relatives, mortgaged the family farm
and bought it on a flyer and went to work and started hiring
these kids from across--young people from across North Dakota
to develop this software company. And I went to his office, I
don't know, a long time ago, over 30 years ago, and he was in
there, he was putting these 8x8, I guess, floppy discs into
sleeves and then he would put them into boxes and then put them
into larger boxes, and they were shipping it. And I said, Doug,
you know, what is this? What are you doing? Well, I then
learned all about--and if you know Doug, you know what I mean,
it's true--all about PC software. And he built that company up,
sold it--or went public in 1997 with it--sold it to Microsoft
in 2001 and that became Microsoft Business Solutions. And so,
Microsoft Business Solutions today had its genesis in Great
Plains Software.
Doug ran Microsoft Business Solutions for a number of
years, kept it there in Fargo. It was the largest location for
Microsoft outside of Bellevue, Washington, and it had, I don't
know, 2,000 or more North Dakotans working for them from across
the state. Left that after a while, started some more
companies. Went into philanthropy, including some really great
things for our North Dakota State University and many other
things. Revitalized, in many respects, downtown Fargo with his
real estate development. In 1997, when I was Governor, I gave
him the Theodore Roosevelt Rough Rider Award, which is our
highest award. And I can remember him looking at me at the time
and going, gee, John, I hope I am not done accomplishing
things. And obviously, you weren't, Doug.
Ran for Governor in 2016--won. Ran again in 2020 and won
overwhelmingly, mostly because of Kathryn, we think, but won by
a big majority. Did a great job as Governor. Ran for President
and actually was the first of the presidential candidates, when
he left the race, to endorse President Trump. And President
Trump, right from the get-go, and Kevin will tell you the same
thing, when we talked to him about Doug, he was really excited
about Doug from the jump. And I am thinking, well, the guy ran
against you, really? But he never had anything but great things
to say about Doug, and of course, Kathryn, which we all
understand.
But he endorsed President Trump, and what Trump saw was
somebody who truly understands energy, and the Trump
Administration has such a big energy agenda that he knew this
was the guy to lead it. So it's not just about leading the
Department of the Interior as Secretary, but leading the
National Energy Council, and that is what President Trump has
really seen in him. But that being said, because there are a
lot of things that Interior touches--I mean, this is a guy that
loves the outdoors. He has got a ranch. He loves to be outside,
riding horses, you know, rounding up cattle. He loves to hunt.
So he loves the outdoors. He loves the National Park System. He
is a historian. I mean, Angus King, he would even challenge you
for trivial knowledge of history, and important knowledge of
history too, but I mean, just any detail. Head-to-head, you two
guys going into detail, it would be fun to listen to for a
while.
And so, he loves the outdoors. He loves the park system,
and talk to folks that he has worked with in Indian Country.
Every single tribe in North Dakota--we have five reservations.
We have a lot more tribes than that, but every single tribe has
endorsed him. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these letters be
introduced into the record.
The Chairman. Without objection.
[Letters of support follow:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Hoeven. And more than 180 different tribes across
the country have endorsed him too. That says something. That
says something about a guy who is willing to sit down and talk
to folks. And he--this is a guy that fits this job. He really
does. He covers all the bases. And so, I hope everybody on this
Committee will take time and visit with him and understand
where he is coming from and understand that he will take time
to understand your issues and work with you because I think you
will find this is the right man, the right fit for this job.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Cramer.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. KEVIN CRAMER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA
Senator Cramer. Thank you, Chairman Lee, and Ranking Member
Heinrich, and congratulations to both of you on your leadership
of this important Committee, and it was great to listen to
John. And by the way, let me start out by doing what I always
do best, and that is agree with John Hoeven. It has worked very
well for me in my career. But what struck me right away is, as
he starts talking like a governor, is I look around the room,
then he brings up Angus. I'm thinking I'm in a former
governors' club, for crying out loud. You guys, you are going
to have a lot of great things to talk about.
You know, there is so much to be said, and John has done it
very, very well. So I am just going to highlight a couple of
things, and to John's point about President Trump's confidence
in Doug Burgum, he called me a lot, the President did. He even
called me when Doug was his opponent and said, I like that Doug
Burgum guy a lot. And he said, he is just so smart and he is so
good and he has got a big brain and he understands everything.
And I said, he does. He does, and he will be very, very
valuable to you in your service.
And I think, as a consumer, as Governor Burgum and First
Lady Kathryn are consumers of these incredible federal assets
of ours, our great, rich properties, as recreators,
understanding the value that it brings to agriculture, that
they bring to extraction--responsible extraction of minerals, I
think one of the things that oftentimes maybe does not get
talked about with Governor Burgum is, he is not just an oil man
from an oil and gas producing state, he is first and foremost,
a conservationist. He is from the land of Roosevelt. And he
absolutely, relentlessly carried the ball to ensure that the
Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library gets built and that it
gets built in Medora, North Dakota, at the gateway to Theodore
Roosevelt National Park, so that it can become the symbol of
responsible extraction of minerals and responsible production
of federal assets in a way that both exercises great care for
the land and the water and the air, as well as great economic
opportunity for the people that own these assets. That is a
remarkable balance that he brings to this. And so, it's such a
great honor for me to be able to be here with him to talk about
the multiple uses of our federal assets in ways that recognize
their value in so many ways.
And then, I want to--and I will just wrap up with this,
because John did such a great job, but I want to read one short
paragraph from one of the letters from one of our tribes. And I
know that many tribes throughout the country have written
letters. Over my years of public service in North Dakota, and
working hard at relationships with tribal leaders and
recognizing government-to-government relationships, the thing
that has impressed me the most, perhaps, about Doug Burgum as a
governor, was the respect that he always showed for them and
that has been reciprocated because he did the hard thing--he
earned the trust that had been lost, not by former governors so
much as just history, as history. It is hard work to do that.
And so, I am just going to close, Mr. Chairman, I just want
to read a paragraph from Chairwoman Janet Alkire from the
Standing Rock Sioux Tribe in North and South Dakota. Probably
one of the more challenging relationships in recent years has
been over the Dakota Access Pipeline, and that particular
tribe, which with different leadership could have divided
people in a big way. But even through that, through all of
that, he earned their support, and I am just going to read this
short paragraph, and then I will end with my thanks to you for
allowing me this opportunity. And my thanks to you, Doug, for
allowing me this blessing.
``Governor Burgum understands the Native American dynamic,
which, if you are non-native can be difficult to maneuver. But
he does it well. He understands the importance of honoring
traditional values and culture, promoting family first,
remembering who we are and where we came from, the struggles we
endure, and community wellness.''
And so, it's just my honor to be able to introduce him
today, and I look forward to a successful confirmation and
working together.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Cramer, and also, Senator
Hoeven.
Governor Burgum, the rules of the committee require that
``at any hearing to confirm a Presidential nomination, the
testimony of the nominee shall be under oath.'' Accordingly, if
you will please stand and raise your right hand, I will
administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
Mr. Burgum. I do.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Now, before I have you begin your opening statement, I will
ask three questions that are addressed to each nominee who
comes before the Committee.
First, will you be available to appear before this
committee and other congressional committees to represent
departmental positions and respond to issues of concern to the
Congress?
Mr. Burgum. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you aware of any personal holdings,
investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of
interest or create the appearance of such a conflict, should
you be confirmed and assume the office to which you have been
nominated by the President?
Mr. Burgum. No.
The Chairman. Are you involved or do you have any assets
that are held in a blind trust?
Mr. Burgum. No, I do not.
The Chairman. I will invite you now to introduce your
family before you give your opening statement.
STATEMENT OF DOUGLAS J. BURGUM, NOMINATED TO BE SECRETARY OF
THE INTERIOR
Mr. Burgum. Well, good morning. Thank you, Senator Lee.
Thank you, Senator Heinrich. I am grateful to have the
opportunity. Thank you for your leadership on this Committee.
And I do want to begin with gratitude, as I always do, with
a special thank you to my friends, Senator Hoeven and Senator
Cramer, not just for their kind words this morning, but their
incredible service to the country, and to North Dakota over
their lifetimes.
And Senator Lee, as you acknowledged, I am deeply grateful
for the support of all of my friends, my family, especially our
three kids, and my amazing and courageous former First Lady, my
wife, Kathryn Burgum, who is joining me here today.
It is certainly an honor to have been nominated by
President Trump to serve as the 55th Secretary of the Interior.
As Senator Hoeven said, I grew up in Arthur, North Dakota. This
is a tiny town of about 400 people. We didn't even have paved
streets when I grew up. It was all gravel, and it was 400 if
you counted everybody that was also staying in the Good
Samaritan Home--that's how we got to 400.
My father was a World War II Navy officer who served in the
Pacific. My dad died when I was freshman in high school, and my
mom went back to work in higher education. I was blessed to
learn from them about service, about leadership, and about
sacrifice, and certainly, from both of them, about a love of
the outdoors. Growing up, I worked in our family's grain
elevator. Every job I had, all the way from junior high through
the end of college was one that required showering at the end
of the day, not at the beginning of the day. And I even worked
my way through undergrad at North Dakota State as a chimney
sweep, which I loved that job because it was one where you
could move up fast and always stay in the black. I thought it
was the perfect career.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Burgum. After grad school, as John mentioned, I had an
opportunity to go directly from undergrad to Stanford for an
MBA. And then later, when I was working in Chicago, I saw my
first Apple II computer, and that was the moment, literally,
where I said I need to get into the software business. And I
had inherited 160 acres of farm ground from my dad, and I
literally bet the farm on that tiny software startup called
Great Plains. With a dream and hard-working team members we
grew to a global public company with over 2,000 team members
serving 140,000 businesses in over 100 countries around the
world. I spent my entire professional career in the private
sector until I was elected Governor in 2016. And for the last
eight years, I have been blessed with the privilege of serving
the citizens of the great State of North Dakota.
My time as Governor has been a valuable preparation for the
opportunity and the privilege to potentially serve in the role
of Secretary of Interior, as our state and my duties
specifically as Governor there put me in contact with many of
the bureaus inside the Department. In North Dakota, we share
geography with five sovereign tribal nations. State and tribal
relationships in North Dakota have sometimes been challenged,
but the current partnership is historically strong because we
prioritized tribal engagement through mutual respect, open
communication, collaboration, and a sincere willingness to
listen. I am grateful for the many tribal nations, both in and
outside North Dakota, for expressing their support for my
nomination.
As Governor of North Dakota, I also served as Chairman of
the North Dakota Land Board, which manages our state's land and
minerals with the goal of yielding a return for a state
endowment fund that significantly funds public education. I
chaired the North Dakota Industrial Commission, which oversees
16 agencies that are related to a variety of things, including
energy research, the state's geologic resources, energy
production, and transmission. The Governor or North Dakota also
serves as the Chair of the State Water Commission, overseeing
billions of dollars of water resources and projects. All of
these are parallel responsibilities to Interior, and often
interacted with Interior agencies.
North Dakota, of course, is blessed with a rugged natural
beauty, including the majesty of the Theodore Roosevelt
National Park, which is home to Theodore Roosevelt's Elkhorn
Ranch, which is considered by many to the cradle of modern
conservation. And of course, we have beautiful Badlands. I
would like to note here on the record that our Badlands are
significantly badder than South Dakota's Badlands.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Burgum. Just tremendously badder, not even close.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Burgum. But we, in addition to that, we have got great
prairies, world-renowned agriculture. We have got amazing
hunting and fishing, four-season outdoor recreation, and much,
much more.
In North Dakota, we created a prosperous economy by
sustainably developing our natural resources, along with our
respect for the land and the wildlife, and at the same time,
having among the cleanest air and the cleanest water in the
country. During our tenure, North Dakota experienced among the
lowest unemployment in the nation and the highest real GDP
growth. Demographically, our state went from one of the oldest
states to one of the youngest. We attracted record levels of
talent and investment capital. I say this because our success
was underpinned by the understanding that we live in a time of
tremendous, tremendous abundance, and we can access that
abundance as Americans by prioritizing innovation over
regulation.
If given the opportunity to serve as the Secretary of
Interior, I will bring those experiences and those lessons
learned to the leadership of the tens of thousands of dedicated
professionals within the Department of the Interior, which
brings us to President Trump's vision for a vibrant future that
we can achieve together. The American people have clearly
placed their confidence in President Trump to achieve energy
dominance. And by energy dominance, that is the foundation of
American prosperity, affordability for American families, and
unrivaled national security.
Today, America produces energy cleaner, smarter, and safer
than anywhere in the world. And when energy production is
restricted in America, it doesn't reduce demand, it just shifts
production to countries like Russia and Iran, whose autocratic
leaders not only don't care at all about the environment, but
they use their revenues from energy sales to fund wars against
us and our allies. President Trump's energy dominance vision
will end those wars abroad and will make life more affordable
for every family in America by driving down inflation. And
President Trump will achieve those goals while championing
clean air, clean water, and protecting our beautiful lands.
Next to T.R. National Park we are building the Theodore
Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum to honor the leader
who advised America to ``speak softly, and carry a big stick.''
In our time, President Trump's energy dominance can be
America's big stick that would be leveraged to achieve historic
prosperity and world peace. The Department of the Interior, in
cooperation with the U.S. Congress, this Committee, and the
states will play a pivotal role in achieving the outcomes to
make the world safer and America even better for our children,
our grandchildren, and generations to come.
I thank you for inviting me here today and look forward to
your questions and our discussion.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Burgum follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
The Chairman. Thank you, Governor Burgum. We will now begin
our first round of five-minute questions. We will alternate
back and forth between Republicans and Democrats, and I will go
first, then Senator Heinrich and so on and so forth in order of
seniority and arrival at the hearing.
I want to start by talking briefly about the Antiquities
Act. This is a law passed over a century ago by Congress. It
gives the President power unilaterally to declare national
monuments. Now, there is a restriction in it that requires
national monuments occupy no more land than is compatible--the
smallest area compatible with the interest to be protected by
the monument. These have become something of a political
football in parts of the country, especially in my state. In
Utah, President Clinton designated the Grand Staircase-
Escalante National Monument in 1996. President Obama added the
Bears Ears National Monument in 2016, shortly before he left
office.
Now, both of these designations were made over the
objection of the people of Utah and their elected
representatives. President Trump later reduced the size of both
monuments in 2017, after he got elected, to bring them more
into conformity with the Antiquities Act requirement for
minimal boundaries. Then, in 2021, President Biden re-expanded
them, exceeding the scope of the law and disregarding local
input. As I explained to President Biden at the time, this is
the size of two Delawares within my state that have been moved
into this very restricted use classification. The point is not
that there aren't beautiful things to protect in the state, but
the line was drawn so big and the monument was made so
expansive, in part because local leaders were not consulted and
to the extent that they were heard, their counsel was ignored.
So Governor Burgum, I would like to invite you, when you
visit Utah, to meet with those whose voices were ignored by the
Biden Administration during those monument re-expansions. Will
you work with me to try to fix that current mess and try to
figure out how best to proceed and to make sure that the
Antiquities Act-designated monuments don't exceed the
restriction within the statute itself?
Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Lee, for that
important question. The 1906 Antiquities Act, of course, was
signed into law by President Roosevelt himself, and it was, as
you stated multiple times, it states very clearly that it's the
smallest possible area to protect those objects to be
protected, and its original intention was really to protect, as
it says, antiquities areas like, I would say, Indiana Jones-
type archeological protections. These are essential that we
protect these areas as a country and that is what the law
intended. But I would look forward to working with you, and
particularly in the area of local consultation, because when
the Federal Government overreaches into a state like yours that
already has over 60 percent of its land in public lands and
restricts that use, it has got tremendous impact on tribes, on
the local communities, and all those around. And I just think
it's important that we strike the right balance. I look forward
to working with you on this issue.
The Chairman. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Housing is another area that I would like to address
briefly. There is a particularly acute housing shortage in the
West, where the presence of federal land--not just the
presence, but the predominance of federal land available for
housing frequently results in shortages. It just makes a lot of
things difficult. And it's not as though we have one part of
the state that is all federal and another part of the state
that is all non-federal. It's all intermingled. And as a
result, it impacts all kinds of things.
Now, many of our communities in states like Utah and
Nevada, among others, find ourselves feeling sort of like we
are islands, floating islands within a sea of federal land, and
that just constrains growth and makes our constraints on our
housing supply that much more dire. I would love to work with
you on a bill that I have introduced, that I have worked on for
several years, called the HOUSES Act, in addition to looking
for developing other creative ways to address the housing
affordability crisis in the West. In your view, how can the
Department of the Interior help address the housing crisis in
areas like, as is the case in my state, where the presence of
federal land often inhibits community needs?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I understand that one of the great
challenges we are facing in this nation right now is housing
affordability, and in my discussion and friendship with
Governor Spencer Cox of your state, I know that it's a high
priority for him and for the state. I think there are
opportunities for us to accomplish both. I mean, like I said,
we are in a time of abundance. We have got federal lands
abutting urban areas, and we maybe have other areas that maybe
need to be protected, like we have done in North Dakota. As
Governor, sometimes we have done land swaps. So we trade state
land for private lands to provide better outcomes for both of
those pieces of land. And I think there certainly are
opportunities here.
Public lands, in general, some like the national parks,
absolutely we need to support and protect every single inch of
those, but in other cases, we have got a multiple-use scenario
for our lands, and I believe there are pathways that we can
find, particularly in states like yours and others that have 50
to 60 percent or more of your land held by the Federal
Government, that we can find appropriate solutions to help
address the housing. I look forward to working with you on
that.
The Chairman. Yes, thank you, Governor.
I see my time is expired. We will turn the time over to
Senator Heinrich.
Senator Heinrich. Governor, I actually want to continue on
that same vein. I had a very long and detailed question here
written by my staff that I am going to depart from and just go
to the heart of the issue, which is: I think what people are
concerned about--and this was a very hot issue this year
because of legal action--is the idea that we would somehow, in
a wholesale way, divest our public lands. So talk a little bit
about how we can stay true to our conservation history, make
sure that the things we do on our public lands--especially,
well not especially, but economically, recreationally, and as
you know, they play such an essential cultural role in states
like mine--can be supported while making smart decisions about
individual parcels.
Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Heinrich. I think we
have to look no further than New Mexico for the answer to the
fact that we can find the balance because--as I know Senator
Hoeven and I hate to acknowledge--New Mexico passed North
Dakota as the number two oil and gas producer in the States,
and yet, your state has got a tremendous record of protecting
cultural and historical lands and providing that balance. And
so, I think there is certainly the opportunity for us to find
that balance going forward where we can protect the land that
we need to protect, but also solve issues, whether it's housing
or whether it's resource development that may be of interest to
the tribe and the local communities.
Senator Heinrich. And that's something we really pride
ourselves on in New Mexico, is that we have been able to strike
a balance that we have been able to be an energy leader on many
fronts, and at the same time, we have created a number of
national monuments that are not controversial, that are deeply
supported by local leaders, by veterans groups, by tribes, by
hunters, and fishermen alike. So I would just simply ask that
before the Department makes wholesale changes to conservation
designations in the State of New Mexico, at least, that you
would meet with myself and any local leaders who helped to
create those designations in the first place.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, absolutely, I would look forward to those
discussions with you, and I think, again, as you have
described, the key to this is the local consultation. As
Senator Lee and other states have experienced, there have been
incidents where there has been complete and total opposition
and no local consultation. And I think, again, my experience as
Governor and working with tribes and working with local
communities in North Dakota, whether it's grazing associations,
county commissioners, mayors, rural residents, I think the
consultation is key.
Senator Heinrich. And part of that consultation is also
those tribes that have both current and historic connections to
those places as well, right?
Mr. Burgum. Absolutely.
Senator Heinrich. Great.
As a former outfitter guide, I am really quite excited that
this Senate and this body just passed the EXPLORE Act. It's the
first major piece of outdoor recreation legislation. Senator
Barrasso was incredibly involved in that, as was Senator
Manchin. Permitting reform was something I worked on in that
piece of legislation. And it's kind of a recognition of the big
economic driver of our public lands that often doesn't get the
same attention that energy and other uses get. Outdoor
recreation in New Mexico is responsible for something like
29,000 jobs and billions of dollars of impact. On a national
scale, it's over a trillion-dollar economy.
So talk again a little bit about how we can balance those
competing issues, as you did as Governor, and support that
outdoor recreation economy, because it is growing and it is
particularly critical to our rural gateway communities.
Mr. Burgum. Well, first, I would just like to say this is a
really important topic, but it's also a passion of mine. As
someone who has spent my life as an avid outdoorsman, I was
very pleased to get the full endorsement of the Outdoor
Recreation Roundtable for this job, which represents that
trillion-dollar industry.
Senator Heinrich. I think that's where we first met.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, it represents all of these different
aspects. And I think the opportunity for, in most states--I
recognized this as Governor, and we created an Office of
Outdoor Recreation while I was Governor and continue to invest,
and whether that's access to fishing and hunting, public access
on public lands, we have got a number of great things going on
in North Dakota that we have done there that have been really
helpful, including using technology. We took all the posting
requirements in our state, and we got all the landowners, the
pheasant hunters, all the waterfowl hunters, and got everybody
to agree on that. And we created a tool where, even for
hunting, you can look on your phone and find out whether the
land is posted or not posted. And it might be posted no for
deer hunting, yes, for pheasant hunting.
Senator Heinrich. Right.
Mr. Burgum. And it includes the phone number and it is
posted, but if you call me and talk to me, I might let you on,
but then the landowner's name and the phone number is right
there. So we have been able to find tools to bring together
landowners and sportsmen on both private lands as well as
public lands to try to make sure that we can keep that outdoor
economy rolling.
Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Daines.
Senator Daines. Chairman, thank you.
Governor Burgum, welcome, as well as welcome to the First
Lady of North Dakota. Good to have you both here.
If confirmed, you will be eighth in line of succession of
President of the United States, Governor. And that goes in line
with when these departments became part of the U.S. Government.
Interior goes back to 1849. And the oldest agency within
Interior is the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). I think it's
only fitting, before I get into my questions, my remarks, if I
might submit a letter for the record from the Coalition of
Large Tribes (COLT), of which three of my twelve federally
recognized tribes in Montana are part of COLT. Of course, you
have five federally recognized tribes and members of COLT. I
just read the letter that they wrote in your support.
It says, ``It has been incredible for COLT tribes to have
such a close supporter nominated to the Secretary's office. He
is someone in whom we have deep trust and confidence. We have
gone to him with our most complex, difficult issues over many
years. He is exactly the kind of leader tribes need at the
Interior Department.'' And they close the letter by saying
this, ``Governor Burgum has COLT's highest recommendation and
endorsement to serve as the next Secretary of the Interior.''
Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit this letter for the
record.
The Chairman. Without objection.
[Letter of support from COLT follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Daines. Governor, last week, the Fish and Wildlife
Service denied Montana and Wyoming's petitions to delist the
Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem and Northern Continental Divide
Ecosystem grizzly bears because these two populations have
exceeded recovery targets by so much that the service no longer
believes these two populations are even distinct. We should be
celebrating the fact that the grizzly bear has recovered as an
example of a great species now that has recovered and is
prolific across these ecosystems. But sadly, this ruling coming
out of FWS punishes Montana's successful grizzly bear recovery
efforts. It's really completely backwards. We should be
celebrating the recovery, but instead, we are now having to
sacrifice to adjust to living with the bears, whether it's
predation losses by livestock producers, as well as human
safety. Sadly, many Montanans have been killed or badly mauled
by grizzly bears. So the people back home take this very, very
seriously. It has literally gotten the point of, along the
Rocky Mountain front, west of Great Falls, where the playground
at one of our schools, they have a high fence there to protect
the children from grizzly bears when they go out for recess.
The Service keeps moving these goalposts for delisting and
returning these bears to state management, where it absolutely
belongs, like we have done with the wolves. The Service set
recovery numbers at 500 and 800, respectively, for the Greater
Yellowstone Ecosystem and the Northern Continental Divide
Ecosystem. The most recent estimate is now--best science--2,100
bears in these two ecosystems. Governor Burgum, would you
acknowledge that the data shows the recovery of these two
populations and commit to working with me to delist them?
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator Daines, I am aware of the data,
and this is a super-important issue I know to Montanans. It's
important to people also in Wyoming and Idaho. And I am with
you. We should be celebrating when species come off the
Endangered Species list as opposed to fighting every way we can
to try to keep them on that list because, as you say, the
complications. And the other thing you mentioned in your
remarks is also the state. Having been a governor, I understand
how dedicated the state fish and wildlife representatives are
from Montana, from Wyoming, from North Dakota, South Dakota, I
mean, all of the folks. As the Chair of the Western Governors'
Association, I came to understand how dedicated those state
officials are. I think there is a belief that when they come
off of federal protection that they are unprotected. No, they
are managed as they are, all the other species in the state, by
the locals, who've got the closest data.
So yes, I pledge to work with you on this issue.
Senator Daines. Thank you, Governor.
The Biden Administration has been slow-walking three
critical permits for coal mines in Montana. The Bull Mountains
Mine, south of Roundup, the Rosebud Mine that supplies coal for
Colstrip, and the Spring Creek Mine in Southeast Montana are
all in desperate need right now to finalize permits. The Bull
Mountains Mine has already had to lay off hard working
Montanans because the Biden Office of Surface Mining has
refused to finish the needed reviews. My question is, when
confirmed, will you prioritize completing these permits so
Montana families don't lose their jobs?
Mr. Burgum. Senator Daines, this is part of a larger crisis
our nation is facing around electricity. We have a shortage of
electricity, and especially, we have a shortage of baseload. We
know that we have the technology to deliver clean coal. We are
doing that in North Dakota. Senator Hoeven and others began
these efforts over two decades ago. But we have an opportunity
to decarbonize, produce clean coal, and with that produce
reliable baseload for this country. And so, again, we
absolutely would want to work with you on this issue because
this is something that is critical to our national security.
Without baseload, we are going to lose the AI arms race to
China. And if we lose the AI arms race to China, then that has
direct impacts on our national security and the future of this
country.
Senator Daines. Mr. Chairman, one just final statement to
read and then I will complete my questions.
I want to quickly close by highlighting the importance of a
bill that I am working on with Senator King of Maine. We co-
chair the National Parks Subcommittee. We are proud of the fact
that no matter which way the gavel goes--it goes back and forth
over time in the U.S. Senate--Angus King and I are always co-
chairs, as it were, together, on behalf of our national parks.
I am working with him to reauthorize the National Parks and
Public Land Legacy Restoration Fund. This is critical to
address the deferred maintenance challenge we face with our
great public lands. President Trump signed the greatest
conservation bill in 50 years when he signed the Great American
Outdoors Act. And I thank Vice Chairman Heinrich for helping so
much in getting that across the finish line. He signed that in
2020. I hope I can count on your support for reauthorizing this
program.
Mr. Burgum. You can, absolutely. The Great American
Outdoors Act, by President Trump, was a great step forward, but
I know, from my own personal experience as Governor of North
Dakota and working with the Theodore Roosevelt National Park,
the amount of deferred maintenance that we have is probably
even greater today across the park system than it was when that
bill was passed. And so, we have to continue to invest in our
national parks.
Senator Daines. Great. Thank you, Governor.
The Chairman. Senator Hirono.
Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome. As part of my responsibilities to ensure the
fitness of nominees before any of the committees on which I
sit, I ask the following two initial questions.
First, since you became a legal adult, have you ever made
unwanted requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or
physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature?
Mr. Burgum. No, Senator, I have not.
Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered
into a settlement relating to this kind of conduct?
Mr. Burgum. I have not.
Senator Hirono. We received your testimony late yesterday,
and you noted that, ``President Trump's energy dominance vision
will end wars abroad.'' And President Trump has directed you to
expand oil and gas drilling on a massive scale, which will lead
to increased burning of fossil fuels. Now, the scientific
consensus is that burning fossil fuels is a primary human cause
of climate change. In 2017, then Secretary of Defense James
Mattis, appointed by then President Trump, told the Senate
Armed Services Committee that, ``Climate change is impacting
stability in areas of the world where our troops are
operating.'' In 2014, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said
that climate change is a critical national security threat and
a threat multiplier.
Now, these are two Secretaries of Defense. They know
something about war. Were you aware that they testified before
the Senate Armed Services Committee a number of times that
burning more fossil fuel is actually not going to result in the
end of wars, but could very well exacerbate and cause wars?
Were you aware of this testimony?
Mr. Burgum. Senator, no, I am not aware of that specific
testimony, but I do know that within fossil fuels that the
concern has been about emissions, and within emissions, we have
the technology to do things like carbon capture to eliminate
harmful emissions at the same time.
Senator Hirono. Well, the fact on the matter is that you
have military leaders who acknowledge that climate change is a
major issue, and for you to take the position that you are
going to engage in actions that will result in the burning of
more fossil fuel, it is troubling.
As Secretary of the Interior, it is your duty to see that
the Department carries out its mission to protect and manage
our nation's natural resources and cultural heritage. If you
are ordered by the President to act in a manner that is counter
to the Department's mission, or to the Constitution, such as
drilling in Bears Ears National Monument, will you do as the
President asks because he wants to drill in that monument?
Mr. Burgum. Senator, of course, as part of my sworn duty, I
will follow the law and follow the Constitution, and so, you
can count on that. And I haven't heard of any----
Senator Hirono. Well----
Mr. Burgum. Anything about President Trump wanting to do
anything----
Senator Hirono. Well, he certainly wants to----
Mr. Burgum. Other than advancing energy production for the
benefit of the American people----
Senator Hirono. We all know that the President wants to
``drill, baby, drill,'' and in your testimony, you say that he
has an energy dominance vision.
So I would ask you that, should you be confirmed, that you
will have these kinds of matters that you will have to decide--
are you going to drill in a monument? Are you going to protect
our natural resources? Or are you going to drill, baby, drill?
So I raise that as a concern with you going forward.
Compacts of Free Association: Last year, Congress renewed
our Compacts of Free Association, and that comes within the
purview of Interior. It involves Palau, Micronesia, and the
Marshall Islands. I would like to get your commitment to
implement the new Compacts of Free Association in accordance
with the bipartisan law that was enacted last year.
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, these Pacific Islands, in
addition to the three that you mentioned that are part of the
Compact, but also the others that are under the Insular Areas
of Interior, are all critically important to national security
for the United States of America. All of them have important
military implications.
Senator Hirono. Yes.
Mr. Burgum. All of these are places where U.S. sailors
fought and died during World War II. And with the aggression
that China is showing in the Pacific, it is more important that
we support them more than ever. I know that Hawaii plays an
important role, including in things like with medical care for
those residents of those islands, and I think it is important
that the Federal Government does its share as opposed to
putting the load on the state.
Senator Hirono. Thank you. It sounds as though you have
familiarity with the Compacts, for which I am gratified.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Justice.
Senator Justice. Governor Doug, First Lady Kathryn,
welcome. And my questions are going to be short and sweet, but
I can tell you just this, that I think we share in the fact
that energy--energy is the key. Energy, oh, gosh, I don't have
my mic on. Okay. Good enough, I am talking loud enough anyway.
But nevertheless, energy is such a key, such a key that
opens every door, in my opinion, every single door. And the
world is starving for us, America, to lead the way. And I
believe we share that thought. I believe we share the thought
that electricity, if we don't watch out, will become a crisis
like we can't imagine, and we absolutely need to be prepared
and move forward in that. But we have got a problem along the
way. Permitting has gotten totally outrageous, and absolutely,
we all want it to be fair and proper and not endanger our
environment. We all share in that.
But absolutely, I ask you, Governor, I ask you, please,
tell us your thoughts on how we are going to approach this, how
we are going to approach the issues with fish and wildlife and
on and on and on. Please tell us.
Mr. Burgum. Well, I should say, Governor--now Senator--so
great that you are here in the Senate, and what a fantastic job
you did as Governor, and it was a pleasure serving alongside of
you as another energy state. You have got everything, just--you
get that we are in an energy crisis in our country, and the
first place is actually related to electricity. Electricity is
at the brink. Our grid is at a point where it could go
completely unstable. We could be just months away from having
skyrocketing prices for Americans. And of course, as we talked
about in the AI arms race, we need electricity for
manufacturing, and AI is manufacturing intelligence. And if we
don't manufacture more intelligence than our adversaries, that
affects every job, every company, and every industry. You
understand this and we have got to get to work.
The permitting, right now, in some of the queues in FERC
for electricity, it's seven years or longer. And it's a
completely--that queue in FERC is 95 percent intermittent
sources and only five percent baseload. We need baseload to be
able to allow the renewables to be part of the system. We have
got to have the balance between those two, or the grid, which
is like a giant machine, just doesn't work. And so, we have got
to get to work, and permitting reform and speeding permitting,
right now, we have stacked the deck where we are creating
roadblocks for people that want to do baseload, and we have got
massive tax incentives for people that want to do intermittent
and unreliable, when the balance is out of whack, and we have
got to bring it back in line. And we can do that and still
achieve the objectives that we want to have about having a
cleaner environment, because the U.S. has done that. We are the
one nation on the planet that has actually reduced
CO2 over the last 20 years. We are the ones that
have done it. China has doubled their CO2 emissions
in the same time frame.
Senator Justice. Well, thank you, sir and thank you for
your kind comments as well.
Now, if I could just ask one more question and just shift
just a little bit. We all know the outdoors touches our soul,
and I am an outdoorsman like crazy. I have enjoyed hunting and
fishing all across this nation, but especially in my home State
of West Virginia. And I welcome you to come to West Virginia to
experience that--just what I am speaking of. But I would just
say just this--we have an attack on our sport of hunting and
fishing. You know, hunters absolutely do so much to contribute
to all the goodness, all across all of our lands, to all the
wildlife, to all the different things that happen within the
sport of hunting. And I know you share, you know, my love, just
as much as I do.
With all that being said, what will you do to ensure that
we will perpetuate this unbelievable tradition to our youth, to
our youth and all those to come? What will you do, sir?
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, in North Dakota, we have taken
steps, as I know other states have done, to create youth
hunting seasons, youth hunter education, make it more
available, create more opportunities, as we have also done for
disabled and wounded veterans, but when we have public lands
and we have public access, the greatest conservationists in our
country--and some are probably listening today--but whether
it's the, you know, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Mule
Deer, Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, you name any of these
organizations, they are the ones that raise the money that
actually pour dollars into conservation in this country.
Hunters, Safari Club, all of these different groups, and of
course, President Roosevelt--Theodore Roosevelt--is one of the
founders of Boone and Crockett. I mean, he was a hunter who
also set the ethic for conservation for our country.
And so, these two things go hand-in-hand. You cannot
separate hunting from the love of outdoors, respect for
wildlife, and dollars that flow back into habitat and making
sure that we have got the privilege of hunting for the public.
It doesn't matter who you are. In North Dakota, you can get a
$20 tag and go on a hunt that is just as amazing as if you
were, you know, going to Africa. I mean, it is a miracle that
we have in this country, one of the few countries that has
that, something we have to fight to protect to preserve.
Senator Justice. Thank you, sir. And I have only got just
one other comment. You know, President Trump is bringing to us
amazing nominees, but in my book, this man, you know, just
think just for one second--he is super smart. His track record
is unbelievable. He has experience off the chart. If anybody is
the pick of the litter, it has got to be this man. He has done
an amazing job, but he has got courage like you can't imagine.
Just think about this: he stood on one leg at the debate and
absolutely, with a torn Achilles, and I have been a coach
forever in basketball, and I have seen kids get a torn
Achilles, and absolutely, it is one serious injury. How you did
this, I will never know, but nevertheless, I give him kudos for
courage beyond belief. Thank you so much, sir.
Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Maybe you will tell us that someday. I assume
it involved just biting on a leather strap until moments before
you walked on the debate stand, but we can save that for
another day.
Senator King.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I associate myself
with the comments about sportsmen. Just several weeks ago, I
accepted the chairmanship of the Congressional Sportsmen's
Foundation, which I am greatly honored to do and look forward
to working with you on those issues. I have visited your
wonderful state, camped there, visited Minot with Senator
Cramer, and I must say, Minot is the flattest place I have ever
been in my life. One of the locals said the good thing about it
is, if your dog runs away, you can still see him after three
days.
[Laughter.]
Senator King. And I also want to compliment you. A lot of
people talk about an all-of-the-above energy strategy. You did
it. You implemented it in North Dakota. Over 30 percent--36
percent of your electricity comes from wind. And I hope one of
the projects you might undertake when and if you are confirmed
is to convince your boss that wind power is not all bad. He is
well known for his opposition to wind power, but you know that
the benefits are there. Of course, baseload is also important.
Storage is important to balance the grid. I understand that.
But coming from a state where 35, 36 percent of your
electricity came from wind, I hope you can talk to the
President about the fact that wind has its virtues and can
contribute significantly because we are, as you note, facing a
huge energy challenge over the next 15 to 20 years to support
the knowledge economy.
Will you undertake that project?
Mr. Burgum. Senator King, certainly you have got great wind
resources in Maine. We have got good wind resources in North
Dakota. Not every state is lucky to have the resources that we
do, where the wind, well, maybe that flat ground helps us on
that--very few trees to stop the wind. But I would say the key
here, you mentioned it, it is baseload versus the intermittent,
because we have got to have the right balance and we maybe have
tipped a little too far in one direction. So I think that is
the key piece for us, the key short-term emergency.
Senator King. But you do see the value of wind power? A
third of your state's electricity comes from that source.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, and most of that we export, and so, I
think our neighbors are happy to have that. But I would also
say that, again, we need an all-of-the-above strategy. It's
what we have had in North Dakota.
Senator King. And a balanced grid.
Mr. Burgum. It's a balance, but we need more. We need more,
and the thing we are short of most right now is baseload.
Senator King. Well, Maine has an asset similar to yours,
offshore. And the Department of the Interior executed several
leases recently. I hope I can have your commitment to continue
with those leases. They will produce enough energy for all the
homes in Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. It's an enormous
resource in the Gulf of Maine that can provide significant
energy. As you may know, the capacity factor of offshore wind
is significantly higher than terrestrial wind. So I hope that
your Department will continue with the projects that were
already underway. Will you commit to that?
Mr. Burgum. I am not familiar with every project that the
Interior has underway, but I will certainly be taking a look at
all of those, and if they make sense and they are already in
law, then they will continue. I think the key is, and I think
President Trump has been very clear in his statements, that he
is concerned about the significant amount of tax incentives
that have gone toward some forms of energy that have helped
exacerbate this imbalance that we are seeing right now, today.
Senator King. You talked briefly to some of the other
questions about permitting reform, and I was involved in the
discussions with Senator Barrasso, Senator Manchin, and others
about the permitting bill that, unfortunately, we couldn't get
across the goal line at the end of last Congress. I presume
that permitting reform not only is for generation projects, but
transmission. Do you appreciate the difficulty of permitting
transmission assets, particularly in the West?
Mr. Burgum. Well, yes and I think that this is one of the
challenges of our time, and it's one of the challenges that we
need to undertake, because whether it's a transmission line, a
pipeline, whatever it happens to be trying to get built, it
just takes too long in our country. And if we don't have--it's
one thing to be able to generate that electricity--but if we
don't have the ability to transmit it to the places where it's
needed, that is going to be a problem.
Senator King. Exactly.
Senator Daines has already mentioned the America the
Beautiful Act that he and I have introduced. It's a refresh of
the Great American Outdoors Act, one of the most successful
initiatives of the Trump Administration. I remember working
with Secretary Zinke on that project. So I am gratified to hear
your support for that proposal.
A final point we talked about is the backlog of maintenance
in the national parks and public lands. One of the problems is,
the Department has chronically underfunded maintenance on an
ongoing basis. In other words, we are being asked to fix a
backlog that, frankly, should not have existed. And I hope that
you will work with the National Park Service and the Office of
Management and Budget to be sure that a sufficient fund is
allocated to ongoing maintenance so we don't continue to dig
the hole deeper.
Mr. Burgum. Well, I agree with you on that. And this is one
of the things, when I came in as a business guy into
government, I was shocked to find out that we, in North Dakota,
did not have appropriate formulas for funding deferred
maintenance. I mean, everyone was happy to approve
appropriations to build new buildings, but it was tough to get
a dime to take care of the ones we already have. And I think
this is something we are going to have to take a look at
procedurally within Interior. I know that we have got over, you
know, 2,400 locations, I am told, in terms of where we have
people stationed.
Senator King. Right.
Mr. Burgum. We just have to make sure that not just the
national parks, but across the whole Department, but we have
got to get the formulas right because we are creating
liabilities for future generations if we are not taking care of
that deferred maintenance.
Senator King. I can tell you that the formula right now is
not right. So I encourage you to take that step. Thank you very
much, Governor, for joining us, and we look forward to hearing
from you further in this hearing.
Thank you.
Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator McCormick.
Senator McCormick. Governor, good to see you. Kathryn, good
to see you. We had a great meeting, I guess a week or two ago,
and I promise to visit the baddest Badlands in the Dakotas. I
am looking forward to that. And I know we have all these
energy-state governors here, but in Pennsylvania, we like to
think that the path to energy dominance goes through the
Keystone State, so I am so glad to have you here before us
today.
When we met, we talked about an energy and innovation
summit that I am planning to do later this year where we bring
in energy companies, AI companies, as well as big investors,
and an opportunity to really celebrate and also make more
progress on President Trump's vision of energy dominance. I was
happy to talk to you about that, and look forward to working
with you and Secretary Wright on that, and just hoping I can
start with getting your support to work with me closely on that
and make that a reality.
Mr. Burgum. Well, I think it's a great idea, Senator. And I
think it is absolutely true, the Keystone State is the key, and
there is such a resource there. I mean wow, so few Americans
understand that Pennsylvania is now producing 20 percent of our
nation's natural gas. And of course, the fact that innovators
in the private sector invested--the whole shale revolution that
got created in this country has been a miracle. I mean, we went
from being one of the largest importers of energy to one of the
largest exporters. And at the time, you know, Russia, you know,
they ran a campaign with all of the CyOps they have--we can't
be naive. You know, they pounded Europe for ten years of
getting everybody in Europe and Germany to shut down all their
baseload so they could buy natural gas from Russia, then they
invade--Russia invades Ukraine. The price goes up. Russia makes
bank like they have never made before and they are funding a
war against us. Germany then rushes to try to reopen their
baseload power plants. They are doing all that. If America
hadn't come to the rescue with LNG exports from our country to
Western Europe, this thing could have escalated even beyond the
tragedy that we see today in Ukraine.
Senator McCormick. I couldn't agree more, and that really
relates to my second question, which is, Pennsylvania, as you
mentioned, the second largest natural gas producer, and yet,
America's allies, even states across our great country cannot
get access to LNG. So we need to really expand LNG exports, and
that would be a huge win and create a lot of great jobs for
Americans and a lot of great jobs for Pennsylvania. So as Chair
of the National Energy Dominance Council, how will you work
with the Administration to increase natural gas production and
get new export terminals online in places like Pennsylvania as
quickly as possible?
Mr. Burgum. Well, of course, I learned in the private
sector, in public companies you don't want to make forward-
looking statements, and the Energy Council is yet to be
created--hopefully by an EO, you know, early in this
Administration. But one thing I would say that's not a forward-
looking statement, it's just a fact, and I talked about it with
Senator King, but you know, we have got, you know, 80 percent
of the homes in Maine are still heating their homes with
heating oil. It's 41 percent in New Hampshire. And we cannot
get a pipeline with clean U.S. natural gas into New England to
states like, you know, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine?
And at the time of the Russian invasion, not only had
Western Europe become dependent, we were offloading, you know,
hundreds of thousands of barrels of dirty Russian heating oil
into New England.
Senator McCormick. Boston Harbor, right?
Mr. Burgum. Yeah, so, I mean, it's like we have a national
security issue and we have got to be able to get clean U.S.
energy to every state. We need the transportation networks,
whether it's pipelines or transmission lines to do that. We
can't be--at a time of global risk like we are now in global
national security--in a position where we are exposed to supply
chains that depend on our adversaries, whether it's critical
minerals with China or whether it's heating oil from Russia or
uranium from Russia, we cannot be dependent on them. We have
got the resources here. We need to develop them.
Senator McCormick. You know, like many energy-producing
states, Pennsylvania has thousands of orphaned wells that need
to be plugged. Many states have programs to plug these wells
that have worked pretty well over many years. I am concerned
that the federal funding that is available for that is being
held up for a number of these projects because of red tape. And
so, as Secretary, will you streamline these requirements so
states like mine can quickly access the much-needed funding to
plug these wells?
Mr. Burgum. Well, this is a--I don't want to say a passion
project, because I am passionate about a lot of things--but the
federal legislation which was put in place after the pandemic
was modeled after something we created in North Dakota, and I
want to thank Senator Hoeven and Senator Cramer for their work
on doing that. Pennsylvania, of course, you guys have been
producing and drilling oil wells since the 1880s. North
Dakota's first one wasn't until 1951, so ours were all easier
to track. We have got ours down now in North Dakota to under
200, and there are other states that have tens of thousands of
abandoned orphaned wells. And this is something from an
environmental standpoint that we have got to take care of. The
technology is there. We can clean it up. And there are ways to
do that and it can be, you know, great for the local economy,
great for Reclamation. There is a way to do it. I have got a
lot of knowledge in this area and you can count on my support
to make sure that we have got a program to take care of this.
Senator McCormick. I look forward to working with you on
that.
Mr. Burgum. Part of it, you know, the U.S. can be energy
dominant, but we have to maintain the path which we are on. We
do it cleaner, safer, and smarter than anybody else in the
world, and we have to maintain that.
Senator McCormick. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Cortez Masto.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
Governor, good to see you again. Thank you for meeting with
me. Welcome to your wife, Kathryn. It's a good name. Thank you
very much.
We talked a little bit about this, but I want to bring this
to the public as well because Senator Lee and I do have a lot
in common when it comes to our public lands, and most of the
lands in the state of Nevada, about 85 percent, are owned by
the Federal Government. And he is right, we have to manage not
only our housing issues, but economic development, unlike some
of the states--your state, where you own most of the land. And
so, we are always looking for that partnership with our federal
partners. And Nevada has a successful track record when it
comes to bringing different parties together to create that
balance of releasing public land for that needed development,
conserving lands, addressing various land management needs. And
an example of that collaboration is my Southern Nevada lands
bill. And so, I am hopeful that, based on your comments already
to my colleagues, that you believe in a balanced land use, and
that the key to that is local consultation and state
consultation. I agree. So I am hoping that you will be willing
to work with us as we address, in Nevada, our housing needs,
which is an issue, as well as economic development, and work
with me on my Southern Nevada lands bill and other lands bills
in the State of Nevada. Would you commit to doing that?
Mr. Burgum. Yes, absolutely, Senator. I know that you,
other than Alaska, you guys are in the top of the list in terms
of having the most amount of federal land. You have some of the
same challenges around affordable housing that Senator Lee is
seeing in Utah, with the great success of population growth in
Southern Nevada, and I think, again, there are some creative
ideas about land exchanges.
You have thought through it. I can tell. I would look
forward to working with you.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I appreciate that.
I also want to touch on a comment that you made that tax
incentives going toward some forms of energy creates an
imbalance for baseload. That's what I have heard you say, and
you made that comment when we were together as well. Let me ask
you this, because in Nevada, it is important for us to
absolutely have an opportunity to support public-private
partnerships in clean energy. I would imagine you support
public-private partnerships?
Mr. Burgum. Oh, I think it's great whenever we can get more
market incentives built into programs, or if we spend a tax
dollar, if we can match it with two or three from the private
sector. That is one of the things we did in North Dakota to
really, you know, both grow our economy and extend the return
on investment for every taxpayer dollar invested.
Senator Cortez Masto. And I appreciate that. And so, with
that said, there is a role for the Federal Government to be a
part of incentivizing and supporting those public-private
partnerships. Would you agree with that?
Mr. Burgum. Yes, where appropriate, absolutely.
Senator Cortez Masto. All right. And in Nevada, because of
the Inflation Reduction Act, as well as the Bipartisan
Infrastructure package, we have benefited, not only in Nevada
with jobs and growing our economy, but in contributing to our
national security in bringing back manufacturing to this
country because we have critical mineral mining going on in
Nevada thanks to those pieces of legislation. We have the
complete ecosystem for battery--not only manufacturing, but
storage and recycling as well. And our energy now is both gas
as well as solar. Solar is really one of the number one areas
that we have in the state for our energy needs, and that is why
battery storage is important.
So let me ask you this, and maybe I am wrong about this,
but isn't the combination of renewables plus battery storage
baseload?
Mr. Burgum. Yes, that is certainly the future, and again,
as I said before, all of the above. We need all forms of
electricity. We are short of electricity in this country. We
just have to make sure that we have the balance because if we
don't have the baseload, the intermittent--and I will call it
unreliable, because the sun doesn't always shine and the wind
doesn't always blow. Until we get storage, and storage is still
a few years out to where we are going to be able to operate it
at grid scale to be able to make that work--until we get to
that time, we really have to have two systems. We have to----
Senator Cortez Masto. I agree, but if we don't have the
incentives continue that kind of research and making sure that
is happening, because it's happening in Nevada right now--
storage.
Mr. Burgum. Yes.
Senator Cortez Masto. I have been to the facilities. We see
it. If we don't have those incentives, then we are never going
to get there. And so, my concern is, and what I am hearing is,
under this Administration, a shift from those incentives for
renewables back to fossil fuels. And that is not going to do
any of us, really, in this country a benefit to--at the end of
the day, leaning into clean energy, being dominant in that
space of clean energy, protecting our national security when it
comes to that clean energy as well. So I do think there is a
balanced approach here, but not one at the expense of another.
And I am hopeful, based on your experience as a governor, and
what I just heard, and I know about your state because you
found that balanced approach for energy, and every state is
going to be different based on their geography, that you are
going to work with states as well and not take away an
opportunity where they can have that balanced approach for
energy.
Would you be willing to do that, even stand up to the
Administration, when it somehow is not a benefit, what they are
trying to do to a state, like the state of Nevada? My
Republican governor and I are in lock-step when it comes to
moving forward in this space.
Mr. Burgum. Well, there are certainly big opportunities in
Nevada, whether it's solar, geothermal--there are a lot of
opportunities--critical minerals--lots of things to work on.
But I would say that the benefit to every American is, if we
have baseload that's reliable that works, that's part of how we
have affordability. I mean, every American today is paying more
for their electricity than they were before. So the current
policy is hurting every American. It hasn't happened yet, but
it's coming soon--more and more brownouts and blackouts because
we aren't going to have the balance on the grid. And I think
every senator and every governor is going to be hearing from
every consumer. And so, this is something we have to work on
together as a priority to make sure that we restore a balance
to the grid, and that means that we, like you said, when you
take a look at a FERC queue that has got 95 percent
intermittent and unreliable, that probably tells us we are a
little bit out of balance. And we just have to bring it back
and then keep moving forward.
But great opportunities to work with you in Nevada. You
have got some special opportunities and resources. And I would
say critical minerals, which you mentioned, I am glad you
brought them up, but you know, in the IRA, we, you know, passed
all kinds of incentives for electric vehicles at a time when
China is controlling 85 percent of the critical minerals in the
world. So I mean, incenting something which increases our
dependence on a major adversary, because we are in a cold war
with China, and we are in a cyber war every day with them. I
mean, right now, we are in a cyber war with them, North Korea,
Russia, Iran. Every day we are being attacked by these folks.
Senator Cortez Masto. So you don't support the credits for
electric vehicles, and that would be something that you would
support the Administration repealing?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I support economics and markets, and if
you add up the EV totals, it's over $900 per ton of
CO2 avoided. And in North Dakota, we can give you a
liquid fuel with zero carbon in it for 60 bucks. And so, we are
doing that today with carbon sequestration for biofuels and so
it's like----
Senator Cortez Masto. I know my time is up, and I look
forward to talking to you about this, but thank you, I
appreciate it.
Mr. Burgum. Yes.
The Chairman. Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. I think that interchange demonstrates the
kind of really high-level discussion that Governor Burgum
brings to these issues. I mean, he really will work through
these issues, and applies a real analytical approach to problem
solving. I think that is really important for both sides of the
aisle. I think that is something that people are going to very
much appreciate about him.
Federal law requires that on public lands there be multiple
use. Recently, the BLM promulgated rules that violate that law,
very clearly, in my opinion. Do you support multiple use on
federal lands? And I know you do, but I want you to express it
for the record, and then I want you to tell us why it's so
important that we have multiple use on public lands, not just
in our state, but across this country.
Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Hoeven. The answer is
obviously yes, but this is the public lands, and particularly
when we talk about aspects of BLM, this is essential to local
economies, and whether that is, you know, grazing rights that
were a part of this, whether it's recreation opportunities and
access, whether it's timber, or whether it's oil and gas and
mineral production that supports local economies and supports
our country, this land was put away for the benefit, the use,
and the enjoyment of the American people. Not every acre of
federal land is a national park or a wilderness area. Some of
those areas we have to absolutely protect for their precious
stuff, but the rest of it, this is America's balance sheet, and
I think every American during a Presidential campaign finds
out, and gets pounded into their head that we have got $36
trillion in debt. We have got all this debt. We have all this
debt. Oh, Americans, you owe part of this national debt--$36
trillion. This is on you. We never talk about the assets, and
the assets are the land and minerals.
This agency, the Department of the Interior, has got close
to 500 million acres of surface, 700 million acres of
subsurface, and over two billion acres of offshore--two
billion. That is the balance sheet of America. And if we were a
company, they would look at us and say, wow, you are really
restricting your balance sheet and do you know what those
assets are worth? We don't. I believe we ought to have a deep
inventory of all the assets in America. We ought to understand,
maybe, what are our assets--$100 trillion, $200 trillion? We
could be in great shape as a country, but then, if you said,
wow, if we had $200 trillion in assets just sitting there, but
we restrict access, we don't cut a tree, you know, we don't use
them for recreation, and then we don't develop the minerals
sustainably and in a smart way, then we are getting super-low
return for the American people. It is our responsibility to get
a return for the American people when we do that.
When we did that in North Dakota, you started it as
Governor, and on the Land Board we have got, in our little
state, we have got a $12 billion endowment for K-12 for about
125,000 kids. I mean, we had an endowment bigger than most
universities in the country for our K-12 system because we
learned how to utilize this stuff. And guess what? We still
have among the cleanest air, cleanest water, greatest
recreation in the nation. This is the time of abundance. We can
do all of it.
Senator Hoeven. Yeah, and so, it really is about working
with people in all these different uses. And that is true with
working in Indian Country on the reservations as well, right?
Empowering the local tribe, you know, to make those decisions
about how they use the land and all the beneficial ways that
they can, right?
Mr. Burgum. Yes, well, in our state, I mean, MHA Nation,
the Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, the Three Affiliated Tribes, one
of the great energy tribes in our country. These guys have, I
say, the hardest job in America. It's not being a governor or a
senator--the hardest job in America is a tribal chairman
because you get a whole other layer of federal bureaucracy on
top of you, and they show up at MHA and they say, hey, you guys
are doing too much flaring. And then they say, well, we
wouldn't be if you would give us a permit to actually do a gas
gathering line. So the same government that tells them that
they are flaring too much won't give them the permit to do the
thing that we can do in the rest of the state. So they get
constrained.
Senator Hoeven. In addition to serving as Secretary of
Interior, there is also the role as the leader of the National
Energy Council--very important. Talk for a minute, for the time
we have left, and maybe even go over a little bit--the Chairman
is really a good guy. So talk about how you implement a game
plan to achieve that goal of energy dominance that President
Trump wants for this nation.
Mr. Burgum. Well, again, I think I don't want to get caught
in making forward-looking statements because the council will
be formed by an EO, but I think that the intention that you can
read in President Trump's public statements is very simple. He
wants to cut red tape. He wants to have more affordable energy
for us. He wants to sell energy to our friends and allies so
they don't have to buy it from our adversaries. That is how we
reduce tensions in the world. And then, we have got to make
sure that we are doing it in a smart way because he talks all
the time about clean air and clean water.
So he basically is talking about the approach that we are
talking about here at this Committee. This Committee will be
deeply involved in helping set those policies, but it's an all-
of-the-above, go get it done and stop getting in the way of
ourselves, and particularly, with this AI--the AI battle.
People don't understand that what is coming right now with the
AI revolution is going to happen during President Trump's term,
where when we have generalized intelligence that we can
manufacture, it's going to affect our ability to compete with
every other power. And China, they permitted more than two coal
plants a week in the first half of 2023 and they are already
the world's largest emitter.
So we are competing against someone who is going to create
more electricity, produce more AI, and this could be how we
lose the cold war with them if we don't get enough. We have to
do it here. And we are a country that believes in reclamation.
We believe in following labor laws. China--child labor, no
reclamation, no care about the environment. They are a tough
competitor right now in terms of their ability to produce
electricity. So we have got to get going. We have to cut red
tape. And we have got to realize that if you shut down U.S.
energy production here, it doesn't help the global environment.
That's a false trade-off. It doesn't help because somebody else
produces it someplace else less cleanly than we do.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Cantwell.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Burgum,
congratulations on your nomination, and I hope to run through a
couple of questions here. So help me out in your brevity, if
possible.
I know you have already--I know the Ranking Member, anyway,
and maybe even the Chairman, brought up our beautiful outdoor
economy, which we have heard from your Senator that apparently,
you are a big outdoorsman yourself. But not only will you
become steward of over 20 percent of the land in the United
States, but some of the most beautiful, iconic places in
America, and these are an economic juggernaut. They are in my
state, if you think about Mount Rainier or Olympic National
Park or the Hanford Reach or many other places. The outdoor
recreation economy generates $1.2 trillion in economic output
every year--$1.2 trillion--and accounts for five million jobs,
and I believe, continues to grow at an incredible clip that
when you think about economic development in some of our more
rural communities, it doesn't take a lot to add a little bit of
infrastructure and then the next thing you know, you are off to
the races as to making a tourism and an economic impact to
these economies. I think in North Dakota it was your third
largest industry, generating $1 billion and 14,000 jobs, and
you actually created an Office of Outdoor Recreation. Good for
you--good for you.
So I think you get it. But now when we talk about oil,
first of all--well, first, I want to make sure on the public
lands, will you support more input in outdoor recreation
economies and gateway communities, and will you fully utilize
the LWCF and support the conservation legacy bills that we have
passed?
Mr. Burgum. Well, of course. First of all, in your comments
on outdoor recreation, I agree completely on the importance of
this. And it's not only good for the economy, it's also good
for the health of Americans. I mean, I think one thing that we
understand is that we just need more people to get off their
devices, get outdoors, get engaged, understand the importance
of our land, our wildlife, our soil health, all of the aspects
of it. And again, you know, we are facing a mental health and
addiction crisis in our country, and part of the answer is, for
many people, is that, you know, getting that connection back to
the outdoors. So I support that completely, and would look
forward to working with you on your other issues as well.
Senator Cantwell. Great. So you support the LWCF that we
passed in continuing to support those funds?
Mr. Burgum. Some of those acronyms I am less familiar with,
so I would look forward to learning more about them, but----
Senator Cantwell. Okay, well, we will get you a question
for the record.
Mr. Burgum. Okay.
Senator Cantwell. Because it's vitally important, we
believe. We think we broke through finally, and the reason why
I am asking this is because this is a lead up to the next
question.
Mr. Burgum. Okay.
Senator Cantwell. You are for this very aggressive oil and
lease strategy, I think, or maybe you are going to take this
helm over, you know, with a group of people and say we need to
do more on oil and gas. Part of our efforts have been to show
that these federal lands are very important in an outdoor
economy. And so, how many areas that we have already leased for
oil and gas that aren't being used, why don't we start there?
Why don't we just start with those, the leases that are already
there? Why don't we start with that?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I think I wouldn't use the term that I
was for aggressive, I have never stated that. I am for
following the law. In the current Administration, in North
Dakota, for the first time since Harry Truman, the quarterly
lease sales were not held, as required by law. It didn't happen
for two years. We ended up having to sue the Federal Government
just to follow the law. So I think the starting place is for us
to go back to, you know, following the law on these. And then
again, we always want to prioritize those areas that have the
most resource opportunity for America with the least impact on
lands that are important. And I think that is a pretty simple
formula to be able to figure that out, given the scale of the
amount of public lands we have. We can do a lot more without
touching or even being visible to any of the people that are
concerned about land use.
Senator Cantwell. So you would prioritize the existing
leases?
Mr. Burgum. I am not sure if I understand the----
Senator Cantwell. A juxtapose to this conversation, which
we have had many times in this Committee--oh, let's expand more
leases, you know, that we don't have right now. I am sure the
Chairman would probably, we could get into a very long
discussion here about Bears Ears, particularly. I wasn't for
expanding oil and gas leasing into Bears Ears. It's a
beautiful, protected area. I personally think that the outdoor
economy is a juggernaut. I don't want offshore drilling off the
coast of Washington. I have got a marine sanctuary. Why in
God's name--I have Cascadia fault line. I mean, I could have
devastation to an economy that is paying dividends. Why would I
want to do that?
So I am just saying one of the things that would be helpful
to hear from you is that you believe in prioritizing on federal
land the leases that are already there as opposed to now going
and saying, okay, let's get a big map and open up all federal
land to new leasing, because your point about efficiency--the
most efficient thing is to go after what you already have.
Mr. Burgum. Well, I am going to have to, before I can make
an affirmative statement that I agree with you, would have to
understand, because what I have seen in my time as Governor is
not that we have existing, but we are actually restricting
legal access for development or timber or oil and gas or
whatever on public lands today----
Senator Cantwell. Okay.
Mr. Burgum [continuing]. By illegally not holding the lease
sales that should have been held. So I am not even--I am not--
--
Senator Cantwell. Okay, my time is up, and I am now in the
red. So I am going to get cut off here. But I will submit
something for you for the record on that. I am sure I will
submit something on fire and CLT and maybe you and I can have a
discussion about what I think really would help us move forward
on some of those issues.
But I also, just for the record, on tribal sovereignty,
you believe in tribal sovereignty, you believe in tribal
consultation, which doesn't mean you just pick up the phone and
have one conversation. Tribal consultation means you actually--
when the Federal Government says, hey, so much money needs to
go to tribes, that you actually figure out the plan for that to
happen.
Mr. Burgum. Well, tribal consultation to me as Governor of
North Dakota has meant actually spending time, going to the
tribes, listening, sometimes listening for hours to really
understand what the issues are and then in getting to the
people ahead of time and then working on things that are
important. We achieved MOUs on law enforcement. I mean, some of
the scarcest and most devastating law enforcement in this
country right now is the lack of BIA agents on federal land. I
mean, some of the tribal reservations have become harbors for
criminal organizations because they know that we don't have
enough resource there and then our local county sheriffs to
state police, in many cases, didn't have jurisdiction. That is
just one. Healthcare is another. I mean----
Senator Cantwell. Yes, thank you. I'm sorry. The Chairman
is going to cut me off. But thank you so much for that answer.
I appreciate it. That is kind of stewardship we need with our
partnership between us and Indian Country. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you.
We are going to go to Senator Murkowski now. I do want to
interject here. There is no significant oil in the Bears Ears.
There is no plan to drill for oil in the Bears Ears. I am not
aware of any significant oil reserves. Look, there are cattle
that graze in that area. There are recreation purposes. There
are some other things that go on there. I don't know who came
up with this idea that somebody is getting ready to drill in
the Bears Ears National Monument. It's paranoid fantasy. That's
not a thing.
The dispute here is about the process by which it was
designated--unilateral Presidential action taken without
consultation, and to the extent there was any input, it was
negative input, but it affected local people in a way that
affects their access to recreation, their ability to continue
to graze their cattle as they have, and other reasons. So let's
just keep those facts straight.
Senator Murkowski.
Senator Cantwell. Happy news to hear that you don't want to
drill there.
The Chairman. Well, yes, I mean, there is no oil there, so.
Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Well, we got oil.
[Laughter.]
Senator Murkowski. We got oil.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, you do.
Senator Murkowski. It's good to see you and it's good to
have these robust conversations. As you and I discussed, part
of our challenge in Alaska is not lack of resource, whether it
is oil or gas, coal, whether it's our renewables with
everything from, yes, wind, the geothermal, even solar, yes,
tidal power, we have got it all, but our big challenge, as you
know, is access. And it has been noted that there are several
states where the Department of the Interior has probably a
disproportionate impact. It doesn't do my heart any good to
oftentimes refer to the Secretary of Interior as Alaska's
landlord. But we pretty much have to go to Interior to ask for
permission to do anything. And this is regardless of what our
statehood compact says, regardless of ANILCA, ANCSA, the laws
that have a direct impact to us.
So it's good to be able to have a conversation with you as
the nominee for the Department of the Interior and knowing that
you have the scope of knowledge and experience that you bring
to these issues. I love the fact that you are talking about
America's balance sheet, including assets that we have, such as
lands and minerals. Part of the challenge that we have in
Alaska is that oftentimes when we talk about our nation's
inventory of assets, we are not on the map. We are not included
in the surveys. And we are told, well, it's going to be hard to
assess that. Well, yes, but look at it from the business
perspective. Just because it's hard to assess your assets, you
think you are going to keep them off of that ledger, off that
balance sheet? So as we are talking about these, recognize that
we not only have what we know we have, we probably have three,
and four, and five, and ten times more. We just need to be able
to do that assessment. So I am looking forward to that kind of
engagement with you.
We have a lot of work to do with the Department of the
Interior. You and I have had a chance to go over many of these
issues. But again, so much of it is about access. And the first
question that I am going to ask--or the first commitment that I
am going to ask of you--is one that I can guarantee that nobody
around the panel has mentioned, and this has to do with polar
bears. The Biden Administration has done a lot of things that
most Alaskans don't appreciate, and last week we added another
thing to the list. We learned Interior is not going to finish
its revised incidental take regulations, these ITRs, for North
Slope activities. And it's going to leave this very routine
renewal of current letters of authorization as unfinished
business.
Well, when you leave those authorizations as unfinished
business, it means that the business of what is going on in the
North Slope is put on pause, put on hold. So I need your
commitment that you will work with Alaskans, particularly the
Inupiat people up there, the North Slope Borough up there, on
basically all things polar bear.
Mr. Burgum. Well, I will be happy to do that, and as you
know better than anyone, Senator, I think close to half of the
land and subsurface and offshore that Interior controls is in
Alaska.
Senator Murkowski. Yes.
Mr. Burgum. So you can't--Interior, you may view as a
landlord, but I would view Alaska as one of the biggest assets
this country has and one of the biggest responsibilities of
Interior, and I look forward to working with you.
Senator Murkowski. That is exactly what I was hoping you
would say, recognizing the--really, the significance there. And
I don't want the Department of the Interior to be a landlord. I
want you to be a partner. I want you to be a partner with us as
we determine how we achieve the balance that we talk about in
this Committee, because we are just as proud of our outdoor
activities. You have had an opportunity, firsthand. I love your
story about the time that you spent in Alaska. We, of course,
welcome you back anytime, all the time. But we have been able
to access our resources, whether it's timber, or whether it's
oil, and still provide for a place that most would say, this is
a ``where I want to go before I die'' type of location. So I
think we are doing something right there.
I need to alert you, as well as my colleagues, and when we
talk about abundance, we have it in Alaska, but when you can't
access it--we are now in a situation in my state, in the South
Central portion, where pretty much 75 to 80 percent of the
people actually are living in this region where the energy, the
natural gas that we have been relying on out of Cook Inlet, is
dwindling in its supply. We are talking, as we speak, about
building an import terminal to import liquefied natural gas
from Canada to keep the lights on and to keep homes warm in
Alaska, where we have unquantifiable reserves of natural gas.
We just need to figure out how we are going to be able to
commercialize this. So we need the help to unleash the
opportunities that we have, to only allow Alaska to have that
energy independence that we so rightfully should have, but also
to be able to help not only our country, but our friends and
allies.
And we have had plenty of time to talk about it. My time is
expired. I am hoping we are going to have another round because
I don't want to submit questions for the record to you. I want
the opportunity to just be able to put it out on the record
now. So, good to be able to welcome you here. You didn't have
to answer any of that, but I just need you to come back to
Alaska soon.
Mr. Burgum. Okay, I look forward to that.
The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. You know, I am going to yield to the
Senior Senator from California because he has got a thing on
the floor he has got to do.
The Chairman. Senator Padilla.
Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Governor, good to see you again. I appreciate the time in
my office a few weeks back, and greetings to your wife,
Kathryn. We can't do the jobs that we do without the support
and love of our spouses.
My time is limited. Not sure if we will have a second
round. There are a number of issues that I am going to try to
get to. If I don't, I will be submitting questions for the
record. Issues like tribal sovereignty--that has come up
before, and your thoughts on our trust and treaty obligations
as a country. Public lands--we have had some recent progress
and exciting announcements in California that we would like to
continue to build on and not go backwards on trying to get to
some water system.
But let me begin with some of the more urgent questions and
issues in California. Los Angeles, specifically, as we have all
seen the devastation of recent fires in Southern California. As
we speak here today, more than 40,000 acres burned, 12,000
structures plus destroyed, more than two dozen people who have
perished--that number is probably going to grow. It has been
one of the most destructive natural disasters in Los Angeles
history. As Governor, you had an experience, not at this scale,
but in 2024, you requested a major disaster declaration to
assist in the recovery from historic wildfires that ravaged
across Northwest North Dakota. And President Biden, as I
understand it, approved it quickly and without conditions. Is
that correct?
Mr. Burgum. Yes.
Senator Padilla. So do you believe federal disaster aid
should come with or without conditions?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I think each situation would vary. But
first of all, let me just say that I want to extend, on behalf
of Kathryn and I, you know, our empathy and sympathy to anybody
that has lost their home, lost their lives, lost a loved one.
We have friends that have lived in the area that have lost
their homes, the homes they raised their kids in for 30 years,
every piece of memorabilia and memory that they had, gone, only
getting out with the shirt on their back, in talking to those
individuals directly. And as it happens, our daughter was in LA
for an event. The event was canceled. Kathryn had flown out
there, so both of them also had to evacuate as the fires were
encroaching in that part of the city. So our family, part of
our family, saw it firsthand. And again, it's just--urban
wildfire is something that we, as a country, we need to think,
and I say each situation is different because where you talked
about in North Dakota, it was largely rural, largely
grasslands--very, very different.
Senator Padilla. And we have experienced both, but please
extend my offer to support assistance in any way, any of my
constituents that are friends or relatives of your family.
For the record, there have never been strings attached to
disaster relief, and I certainly hope this is not the first
case. So I would ask, as this plays out in Congress over the
next several months, if you are fortunate enough to be
confirmed as Interior Secretary, and you wouldn't be the one
deciding on whether or not to grant disaster declarations, but
the Department is significant, particularly when it comes to
wildfire response. Would you commit to responding to every
disaster with as much support and resources possible,
regardless of which state or jurisdiction the disaster is in?
Mr. Burgum. Well, absolutely, but I would say I would go a
step further, which is we have got to commit to--and maybe it's
going to take, you know, apparently the fire in Maui was not
big enough in a sense--I mean, that was horrible--100-plus
lives lost, the devastation that is there, but it did not
create a response nationally or at the federal level or a
collaboration of states, but with this incredible, you know,
the largest ever. And when the dollars come up, this could be
the most expensive wildfire--urban wildfire--in the history of
the country, probably a time for all of us, together, to say
what could we be doing differently. And I am excited that Tim
Sheehy is a new Senator. He is the first that I know of who has
actually worked as a professional firefighter on wildfire. I
know that he and others are willing to work across the aisle to
come up with solutions.
Senator Padilla. And Senator Sheehy and I are working on
some proposals on a bipartisan basis to improve the Federal
Government's ability to help in situations like these.
Mr. Burgum. And if I could, Senator, I would say we would
also have to look at, it goes back to actually the grid because
if you--a wildfire, whether it's in North Dakota or California,
you need three things: you need oxygen, you need fuel load, and
you need a spark. And in both cases, in North Dakota and in
whatever, when you have high winds, those sparks can come from
above-ground power lines coming in contact with vegetation. And
so, we have to think about the grid----
Senator Padilla. I love that you have that appreciation and
knowledge, and unfortunately, the experience, because red flag
conditions is something new to people across the country, but
nothing new for those of us in the very dry West.
My time is running quickly. I want to get at least one
other issue in on the record. Last session, I began another
bipartisan effort, with Senator Daines, to primarily protect
the pay increases for federal firefighters that Congress had
previously approved. Side note, there are currently about a
thousand brave federal firefighters that are part of the
tremendous response. It's not just locals. It's not just state
firefighters, but through mutual aid, a number of jurisdictions
there, including federal firefighters. If confirmed, are you
committed to supporting wildland firefighters? Because
recruitment and retention challenges exist for a number of
reasons, but compensation has certainly been one of them.
Mr. Burgum. Well, it's a dangerous and very hard job. But
it's an essential job. And I know, again, from my own recent
experience, this was just October--the first week of October,
we lost two lives in North Dakota as part of these raging
wildfires that were tearing across the prairie. I had a chance
immediately after that to meet with local volunteers and local
firefighter units and our small state fire-front team. Our
national guard was out, including a lot of citizens that jumped
in as they did in California to try to save their own homes. I
think we all have got a greater appreciation for that role. I
think we need to have a better, more sophisticated response
than we have right now because, again, this is a thing we need
to recognize that there is rural firefighting and then there is
urban. And I think the LA example shows us that there are
things that we have to do differently going forward.
Senator Padilla. Thank you.
And just in closing, I will follow up on a number of issues
with questions for the record, unless we do get a second round.
But a note, not a question--and a nod to Senator Hickenlooper,
who allowed me to jump the line here--we are working on
engagement on the Colorado River, some important negotiations
that need to stay consensus-driven in the years ahead, and a
recognition, again, tapping your experience as Governor, that
we need federal and state agencies working collaboratively to
tackle resource issues, especially water. In California, we
have both the Central Valley Project, which is a federal
system, and the State Water Project, which is the state system,
that are truly interconnected. And so, I introduce that to you
and look forward to working with you on the water management
challenges that we will have to address together going forward,
particularly given the federal biological opinions that have
been carefully crafted and need to be maintained.
Thank you for your time.
The Chairman. Senator Cassidy.
Senator Cassidy. Hey, Governor Burgum, thanks for doing the
job, man, we appreciate it. We both come from oil and gas
producing states. One of my top priorities has been to use
federal/state revenue sharing on oil and gas lands to help
rebuild Louisiana's coastline. During the time of this hearing,
we will have lost several football fields worth of Louisiana
coastline, which, of course, makes us more vulnerable to a
hurricane hitting our coast. And last Congress, I am pleased to
say, the RISEE Act, which did that, passed by voice vote out of
this Committee. So I am hoping we do that again.
Can you briefly speak to the importance of revenue sharing
to North Dakota, knowing that on federal lands in North Dakota,
there is revenue that comes back to help mitigate whatever
negative impact that drilling may have?
Mr. Burgum. Well, yes, absolutely. And the federal revenue
goes two ways. I mean, at least we have got it coming back, a
portion of it, back to the state. But then a portion of it goes
back to the Federal Treasury, and the Federal Treasury, as we
know, we have talked earlier about the debt that we have.
Responsible, sustainable, smart development, whether it's
onshore or offshore, is of great benefit to conservation--in
your case, a coastline. But it also can help pay for other
things. In our state, the revenues that are coming in are
helping pay for education, healthcare, roads. It touches
everything----
Senator Cassidy. If you will, it's kind of a middle class,
if you will, and lower economic class benefit program because
those things are touching services directly, aside from the
jobs being created, directly impacting the quality of their
life.
Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and then when done effectively and
appropriately, it also lowers the burden of sales tax and
property tax and income tax on those same working individuals.
Senator Cassidy. It's music to my ears. I will say when I
speak to the folks that actually do these big developments, one
fellow said, you know, it used to be when they had a lease
sale, I could plan a fishing trip with my son at the same time
because it was so regular. It was going to be on this day, at
this time, happened to be in New Orleans, so they had a great
meal. So I wanted to say that now there have been dilatory
practices that have been instituted, not for the sake of
anything other than being dilatory and to increase the cost of
development to hopefully thwart that development. Can I get a
commitment from you, as much as you can possibly do it, that
when we have lease sales now, they will be as they are
scheduled to have lease sales and so that people making these
decisions will have certainty as to them?
Mr. Burgum. As someone who is participating in a lawsuit
suing the Federal Government to try to get them to hold the
lease sales when they were supposed to be held by law, you can
count that. As head of Interior, we will be following the law
when it comes to lease sale time.
Senator Cassidy. I think the operative statement is you
will be following the law, and that is a good thing.
Mr. Burgum. Yes.
Senator Cassidy. Now, on that, we know that on some federal
lands from before modern environmental standards, there are
abandoned oil and gas wells, and those tend to leak methane,
for example. I am very interested in working on a bipartisan
basis, bicameral basis, of how we can actually have a federal
program which sustainably is paying to cap these abandoned oil
and gas wells. And Louisiana has about 1,500 of them. Any
thoughts about that, because I am sure in North Dakota that you
had to address this issue too.
Mr. Burgum. Well, in North Dakota, we took part of the
revenues that were coming into the state from the oil and gas
tax revenues and we created an Abandoned Well Reclamation Fund.
And that has been replenished, and then that goes back in to do
that. But we have also made sure that the private sector is
doing their share.
Senator Cassidy. Now, let me ask, because one thing I hear
from the private sector is the issue of liability protection.
Will they be sued the bejesus out of if something goes bad
about this remediation of the abandoned oil and gas well? And I
ask because I don't know the answer to it, we are trying to
explore that. There are the abandoned mine provisions that we
are looking at. How did you all manage that in North Dakota?
Mr. Burgum. Well, we always were looking for incentives to
make sure that the private sector was willing to participate as
opposed to being afraid to participate. And you are describing
this thing where if you get unlimited liability, then they want
to run the other way and lawyer up and do that as opposed to,
hey, if you got the appropriate bond levels that are economic,
they pay those upfront, we exhaust those. If they have got
other payments that they need to do, we have just been able to
work collaboratively in a way to make sure the private sector
is doing their share when we are doing this. And part of their
share is because we are taking--if they were not investing in
creating the well, putting in the people, doing the
development, taking the risk on the front end, we wouldn't have
the revenue to split up on the back end.
Senator Cassidy. So we are going to look at what you all
did in North Dakota as we draft our legislation.
One more thing, knowing that you will be in charge of this,
as I gather, this kind of ``how do we do energy'' sort of
thing. One thing that I have been concerned about is that
countries like China do not enforce international standards on
controlling pollution. That lowers their cost of manufacturing
as much as 20 percent, incentivizing manufacturers to leave our
country and move there. But then we get the loss of the jobs,
but also all the air pollution that then blows over to our West
Coast. I think I read 20 percent of the SOX in
California is related to emissions from China.
Now, one thing I have been proposing--Senator Graham is my
co-sponsor--is a foreign pollution fee that would put a fee on
certain products from a country like China roughly equal to
their avoided cost of not complying with environmental
regulations. Now, as the President speaks about tariffs, this
would be a tariff that would be thoroughly defensible as we
address something the economists call externalities. I slept in
a Holiday Inn last night, I know that word.
[Laughter.]
Senator Cassidy. So I go through that knowing that you, in
your position, will be making sure that our industry is
competitive in terms of controlling our emissions in accordance
with the law, which then gives us that advantage relative to
those competitors arbitraging those rules. Any quick comment on
that, because the Chair is being generous in allowing me a
little extra time?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I think you are spot-on to recognize
President Trump, who has a willingness to use tariffs. His
principle is reciprocity. If you have access to our markets,
and we don't have access to yours, of if you are using unfair
practices, if you are dumping in here, in this case, if they
are not doing reclamation, they are using child labor, they are
doing all the things that lower their cost, that is exactly the
kind of place that he has publicly spoken about that he would
want to have reciprocity with tariffs.
Senator Cassidy. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you,
Governor, for being here, I appreciate this. It's always good
to have other governors in the room--or former governors, I
guess.
At this point, I have got three questions, so I am going to
be pretty quick in the questions, and I might--I try to be
unfailingly polite, but if I override you, it's just because I
want to get to all three questions.
Obviously, I worked on methane regulations back when I was
Governor. We were the first state or province anywhere in the
world to actually regulate methane, but we did it by working
with the industry. They came and helped create the regulations
that were going to guide them. Senator Cassidy was just talking
about abandoned wells. It's all part of that same problem. As
Secretary of the Interior, how do you think you can use your
authority to advance rules that boost innovation in the energy
sector to, you know--let's reduce methane is one thing, but I
will broaden the question, say, and getting to better, cleaner
energy that is at the same time reliable and low-cost?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I should say, Mayor/Governor/Senator, I
love this question because of the focus on innovation. We have
seen in North Dakota, again, the federal regulation comes in,
it's proposed. It goes through the rule changing. It takes
years to finally get it finalized, then it gets finalized, and
then, all of a sudden, you got a federal employee in a white
pickup with a clipboard, you know, driving around, that the
taxpayers are paying for, trying to find out if we have got an
emission here, emission there. Meanwhile, if that is six to
eight years from the beginning of a problem to when the rule
gets finalized and is actually enforced, we have gone through
like four or five cycles of----
Senator Hickenlooper. Get to the innovation because----
Mr. Burgum. We have gone through four of five cycles of
Moore's Law, and then someone's got a solution to say we can do
methane capture at the well. We can do it cheaply. We can do
this. They implement it. They can capture it. They can turn it
into electricity. They can, you know, do power generation for a
data center onsite, on a well site. I mean, the amount of
innovation that is occurring right now in the energy industry
is unbelievable. And so, it's as exciting as anything in tech
that's going on.
And so, that's why I say, ``innovation over regulation.''
We could solve these problems cheaper, faster, and quicker than
we can through expensive and outdated regulations.
Senator Hickenlooper. Yeah, we have never needed more
innovation in a short time then we need energy right now.
As the energies are, on the other side, there have been a
lot of reports about tariffs on critical minerals and possibly
on everything, from all different--I mean, a lot of people are
saying a lot of different things. So in terms of imposing
tariffs without having a clear strategy on how we are going to
secure the supply chains for these critical minerals that are
essential to our defense, to our aerospace industry--go down
the list--what's your plan to collaborate with our allies to
make sure that we can ensure a reliable supply chain on these
critical minerals?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I think the key there is allies, because
we have to have a security network of people that are truly our
allies, and we have to be able to buy and sell from each other
around these critical minerals, but right now, we have been,
over the last 20 years, I mean, we were, as a nation, one of
the great mining economies in the world 20 years ago. It has
become a dirty word. You can hardly find a kid in college that
wants to go into geology or geologic----
Senator Hickenlooper. You are hurting me.
Mr. Burgum. Well, you were there. You were----
Senator Hickenlooper. I am a geologist.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, you are.
Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I was.
Mr. Burgum. But you understand, in your profession, how
that has shifted in your lifetime, and we have to bring it back
because this is critical to our nation's future. And again,
when we can do it here with innovation, better, cleaner, and
safer than anywhere else the world, we are actually helping the
world environment----
Senator Hickenlooper. Exactly.
Mr. Burgum [continuing]. When we do it in the United
States.
Senator Hickenlooper. We can set those standards. And I
agree completely that we are the ones who are going to create a
better way to extract minerals with less pollution and less
risk.
Last question: obviously, public lands are a key part of
Colorado, just like they are of North Dakota. I commend you. I
think what you did as Governor, you took a lot of what we did
and did it better. It is very frustrating, but we governors
like to give credit where credit is due. We have certain places
in Colorado, and we discussed this when you were in my office
last week, and I appreciate you taking the time with all that
you have got going on to come and spend an hour with us. We
have some places where local governments, the local community,
the ranchers, have kind of joined arms side-by-side to protect
lands. We have one piece of land there that is called the
Thompson Divide. And it has been somewhat controversial. There
is one mining or oil company that felt that there was potential
there. I took a pretty deep look at the seismic, and couldn't
see much source there, much potential, but it has been
controversial.
I wanted to make sure to extend the invitation that you
come to Colorado, which I am sure everyone up here, even if
they haven't said it, they look forward to it, but to come walk
that landscape with some of the local ranchers and farmers
there so you can get a sense that this isn't a partisan issue,
this is a piece of land that pretty much everyone in the
community has a side that needs to be protected.
Mr. Burgum. Well, I appreciate the invitation. I would look
forward to it, Senator.
Senator Hickenlooper. Great, thank you.
I yield the floor.
The Chairman. Senator Risch.
Senator Risch. Governor, welcome. I can't tell you how glad
I am to see another governor for this position, and
particularly coming from west of the Mississippi. You know, if
you look at this Committee, it's kind of the former governor's
club. There are a lot of us on here and we have meetings from
time to time. Hoeven takes up most of the time trying to
convince us there is a ``z'' in bison, and we can't find it,
so.
[Laughter.]
Senator Risch. In any event, thank you for doing this, and
because of the fact that most of our western states have so
much federal land, it's really important we have somebody that
understands those issues. So thank you for that and thank you
for the job.
They have already had a discussion with you about grizzly
bears. We don't want grizzly bears, they kill people. You know,
the Federal Government already gave us wolves. We had them all
killed off about 75 years ago and then some yahoo back here
decided we needed them again and they brought them in and
brought us 30 wolves and said when there were 203 breeding
pairs, we could delist them. Well, by the time I became
Governor, there were at least 1,500 wolves. Nobody knows how
many breeding pairs, and we couldn't get them delisted until I
got back here and we finally were able to put together a
coalition and got them delisted. Grizzly bears are so far over
the top because they kill people. They really do kill people.
And they just don't mesh with society. So in any event, we will
look forward to working with you on those issues.
Probably one of the most important decisions you are going
to make here in the immediate future is--I know how the
transition team is working, and you and the transition team are
going to have to pick a BLM Director. And that is really
important to us because all of us that are western states have
a tremendous amount of BLM land. We had a real problem with
this one. Fortunately, she has only got about 95 hours left.
She was an eco-terrorist. She engaged in the work that was done
in Idaho of spiking trees. You probably know about spiking
trees. Since she has been BLM Director, we haven't seen her.
She has been up here, I think, once in the four years. And it
divided this Committee deeply. We had a huge fight over it. It
was a straight party-line vote. She got confirmed. We don't
want somebody like that running the BLM, particularly somebody
we can't find. So I urge you to use your best decision-making
ability when you choose that person.
On another important issue, the issue for us in Idaho right
now is the Lava Ridge Wind Project. And my good friend Senator
King and I have different views on windmills, and bless you for
taking the windmills. You can have them all. We don't want them
in Idaho. We hate windmills in Idaho. They are a tremendous
blight on our viewscape. We really don't like them. And the
Green New Deal that this Administration has put together is
trying to saddle us with 100,000 acres--100,000 acres--with 241
windmills on them that are a little higher than the Space
Needle. I appreciate you meeting with me and listening to how
wrong this project is on so many different levels. The good
news is, and you don't know this yet, I don't think, but that
project has only got about 95 hours left to be on the table.
That's going to go by the by, and believe me, in Idaho, this is
a 99 to 1 percent issue. And we are going to be so glad to see
it gone. And it will be gone and you are not going to have to
worry about it anymore after that.
Let me just close with this. I am so glad to hear that the
President is going to put you in the position he is on energy.
That's incredible. We need it. We all know his vision for
making America independent and actually being an exporter and
tapping our wealth. One word we haven't used here in that
regard is nuclear. Idaho is the birthplace of nuclear energy in
the universe. We have still got the first lightbulbs we lit in
1951 by generating nuclear energy. We built about 52 reactors
out there at the site. I don't know if you have been to the
Idaho National Lab or not, but if you are going to be in the
energy business, you really need to. There's a tremendous,
tremendous resurgence of interest in nuclear. You know, the
thing kind of went by the way after we had the unfortunate
Three Mile Island incident, but the renaissance in nuclear, not
just in America, but around the world, is staggering.
Coming off the drawing boards at INL and in the very near
future are SMRs--small modular-reactors. It is going to be
followed by the micro-reactors. That is going to change the
world as far as energy is concerned. And I am glad to hear you
talk about baseload because when you are talking about nuclear,
you are talking about baseload. And I suspect the world, as we
go through this century, is going to rely heavily on nuclear.
There is tremendous--and the other hat I wear is Chairman of
the Foreign Relations Committee. I deal with countries,
particularly the Eastern European countries--they are entering
contracts and it is a national security issue because we
compete with China, with Russia, and to a degree, France, when
these new projects are coming on board.
So thank you for what you are doing. God bless you. We
welcome you.
The Chairman. Senator Gallego.
Senator Gallego. Thank you. And Governor, thanks again for
joining me, and thank you for sitting down in my office, and I
appreciate our time together. We kind of hit upon this, but one
of the biggest Interior-related issues is going to be the
Colorado River. Arizona is at the heart of our national defense
when it comes to chip making, agriculture, and food security,
and of course, home to the fifth largest and best city in the
country. In addition, 22 of the 30 Colorado River Basin tribes
are in Arizona. So rules governing the reductions of Colorado
River water expire at the end of 2026. And post-2026 operation
conversations are still ongoing. The Lower Basin states have
put forward a proposal for management of the Colorado River
that shares the risk among all states. However, no agreement
has been reached, leading to potential conflicts within the
Basin, which, of course, we would all like to avoid.
Would you work with Arizona parties and my office so that
any determination post-2026 isn't overly burdensome to any one
state and is consistent with the Colorado River Compact?
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, you bring up a really important
issue, and this is with the 2026 date looming, coming forward,
and of course, as you know, Interior does have some specific
authorities relative to helping with the Lower and Upper
Basins. I would say, as a former Chair of the Western
Governors' Association, I know that this has been a battle that
has gone on as long as there have been people in the West,
people fighting over water in the West. My experience in North
Dakota has been more on the Missouri River Basin, but also, we
have been in some deep battles with Canada because we have two
rivers that are in North Dakota that actually flow north into
Canada--the Souris River and the Red River in the North.
So whether it's international or the complexities of the
Missouri, I have some good understanding and good exposure to
this. But I think you can count on it that we are going to look
for a collaborative solution that serves everyone. Also, we
have to look for innovation on ways on the conservation side,
because we can't make more water, but if we could use what we
have wisely, that is going to look for the best solutions for
all. But I appreciate that you are engaged in this. I know how
important it is to Arizona and its economy.
Senator Gallego. Thanks, Governor.
In our meeting we also discussed a lot about our tribal
communities and tribal nations. I am very glad that you have a
good background and understanding and relationships with them.
And we talked a lot about tribal law enforcement, including
some of the bills that I have put forward to increase tribal
law enforcement. But unfortunately, we see just high rates of
missing and murdered women, as well as other violent crimes, a
lot of this really due to lack of tribal law enforcement and
communications with our agencies that are supposed to have
oversight and collaboration. So, you know, I have worked
through my time in Congress to try to increase the funding for
tribal law enforcement, but our federal budget cuts really put
all of that work at risk. So can you tell me, what is your plan
to work collaboratively with Congress and tribes across the
country on tribal law enforcement and proven efforts, and how
do you plan to ensure that we can do this in a bipartisan
manner?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I think there is nothing partisan about
enforcing the law and protecting the citizens of the United
States. And one of the great tragedies in our country is the
lack of law enforcement on tribal lands and the fact that we
have organized crime that is, you know, preying on those gaps.
They are aware that the gaps are there, and whether it's
training centers--Senator Hoeven has been particularly
supportive, along with Senator Cramer--we don't have enough
training centers across the nation for the northern tribes or
the southern tribes. So we need more recruiting. We need more
staffing. We need lots of other things that are going on.
But you mentioned, the first time it has come up, but the
missing and murdered indigenous women. I mean, this is, again,
an unseen tragedy in America. I think the FBI list is now at
over 6,000 unsolved cases. And I, you know, believe, again,
that we just--it is a complete tragedy. It seems if we, you
know, we lose a college student at spring break, it's a Netflix
series and the whole nation knows her name personally. And then
we have these same individual tragedies that happen over and
over again in Indian Country, and people aren't even aware that
is it's going on. So we have got to change our entire approach
to this.
Senator Gallego. Thank you again for that, and I look
forward to working with you on that, and I had a lot of sense
of history on the House side on this.
In the last four years, we have learned from Reclamation
that Glen Canyon Dam has some design flaws that limit its
ability to pass water at lower elevations, which means we have
to fix that dam, and pretty soon. We need the ability to
essentially pass water around the dam if we actually obviously
cannot go through it, especially if the hydrology in the region
gets worse. How would you make fixing the dam that delivers
water to the Grand Canyon and the three million people
downstream from that in the Lower Basin, and of course Mexico
as part of our treaty obligations, a priority?
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I appreciate your bringing that
to my attention. This is one issue I was not aware of about--
the Glen Canyon Dam deficiencies, but obviously, with the
Bureau of Reclamation being the second largest operator of
hydroelectric dams in the country behind the Army Corps of
Engineers, I will quickly be meeting with the team, if I have
the privilege of being confirmed for this position, about this
issue because we have to have working facilities on these
critical rivers.
And as we know, we have to have more reservoir capability
because part of the issue we are facing is that perhaps we not
only need to fix--we have to upgrade some of these so that we
can have more storage.
Senator Gallego. Yeah, I would love to work on that,
personally. Thank you. Thank you, Governor. I yield back.
The Chairman. Senator Hyde-Smith.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I think
you guys will be very happy that I am probably the last one.
This will soon be over. But I just certainly appreciate your
willingness and your eagerness. I enjoyed the visit we had in
my office and the sincerity that you have, but most of all,
your capabilities. You are so capable for this position. And I
am very thankful to you and your family that you are willing to
do this.
I am going to be brief, but one of the things we talked
about in my office was a local Mississippi thing. William
Faulker once said, ``To understand the rest of the world, you
first must understand a place like Mississippi.'' But we are
very blessed with the National Park Service, that we have
several sites in Mississippi that certainly contribute to our
tourism, the economy of our state, and we work with them very
closely with public-private partnerships. And in Vicksburg,
now, we are working on a visitor center with the State of
Mississippi, public-private partnerships, and Friends of
Vicksburg National Military Park. So we certainly want to make
sure that continues. In Natchez, the state is enhancing two
state historical sites to better complement the Natchez
National Historic Park sites.
So, of course, I would want to invite you to visit those
and am asking for your willingness to commit to me on working
on these two particular projects in Vicksburg and Natchez.
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, thank you, and first of all, I
just want to thank you too for your capabilities. It's great to
have a Senator who grew up in agriculture and also was Ag
Commissioner. That is fantastic. I spent most of my life--my
family was always involved in agriculture my entire life, and
many of my cousins still are. So it's such an important part of
our national security as well.
But in terms of the national park thing, as we said
earlier, we have a big deferred maintenance issue and we have a
big opportunity. These are the precious spots out of the
billions of acres of surface, subsurface, and offshore that we
own. The national parks, for Americans, are a priority, and we
need to take care of these sites, whether historic or others.
And again, we have to make sure that they are capable of
handling and supporting the visitors that want to see them. We
know they are great for the local economy. So I appreciate the
invitation and look forward to working with you.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you on that.
Now, I am going to go to South Mississippi--our offshore
oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico. Of course, it
plays a vital role in the Gulf States' economies as well. We
call it our blue economy down there. The anchor platform has
recently come online with the Gulf of Mexico, but it will
produce 75,000 barrels of oil per day, and this oil is refined
in Pascagoula, Mississippi, and obviously, the jobs that it
provides there and the benefits that we have. But it is
important that the Department maintain a steady leasing
schedule to ensure companies can continue the opportunities
there for exploration for new production to support the
affordable, reliable energy. So the current National Outer
Continental Shelf Oil and Gas Leasing Plan for the five-year
plan includes only three possible lease sales, a historic low.
Do you believe the current five-year plan is adequate to
continue to meet the energy needs of the nation? And if not,
will it be a priority for Interior to develop or finalize a new
five-year plan?
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I think that you know the long
lead times it takes for the private sector to make the
significant investments to do safe, secure, and smart,
sophisticated offshore development. It is a really important
part of our nation's economy and our national security. The
fact that during the current Administration, the lease sales
have been so unpredictable and disruptive, and the fact that
they are projecting forward to have among the fewest we have
ever had, almost would guarantee that we would see a decline in
energy production in offshore in the years ahead because of the
lead times. And knowing that we are in a national security
battle, and the way that we win, the way that we ensure
America's future is that we have energy dominance. This isn't
opposed to the President's direction, I mean, to have, I mean,
the President would be saying we have to be doing more smart
development, not less. And as I stated earlier with one of the
questions, in North Dakota we literally were suing the Federal
Government because they were not holding the lawfully required
lease sales. So getting lease sales to be regular, predictable,
and at a level that allows us to maintain energy production in
our country is a minimum standard for us.
Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you for those answers, and I
cannot tell you how glad we are to have you. Thank you.
Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Wyden.
Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and let
me say, I very much look forward to working with you and
Senator Heinrich. We have always worked on these issues in a
bipartisan way, and I look forward to doing it again.
Mr. Burgum, I think you know from our visit in the office
how strongly I feel about these clean energy tax credits. I
wrote this package, $400 billion or so, the biggest investment
in fighting climate change in American history. It uses
carrots, not sticks. The more you reduce carbon, the bigger
your tax savings. It's private-sector driven, and in what I
consider to be a huge breakthrough, we reward technological
neutrality. The reason that is so important, as you and I
talked about, is nobody knows what the big carbon reducers are
going to be 30 years from now. And so, the reason I insisted on
that provision is, it creates what I call an innovation lane.
It's an opportunity to send a message to people about every
possible type of energy use, that you are going to have a
chance, if you innovate, to be part of a very bright future.
Now, I heard something, and I am just counting on you to
deny it, that maybe you were not as interested in this as I
thought you were in the office. So, you seemed kind of
skeptical on some of the earlier discussion, and I just hope,
because you are going to be very influential in the whole
Administration on energy, that we can work together on this. I
believe we will work together on a variety of other issues as
well. Your thoughts?
Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I really enjoyed our discussion
and the extra time we spent together, and as I said then, and
restate now, that I think your principles are really sound
about being, you know, technology neutral, about having carrots
versus sticks, and also about having, you know, private sector
versus just all government----
Senator Wyden. I ought to quit while I am ahead.
Mr. Burgum. Yeah, well, that was all good, I mean, it's all
good stuff. I think if--I don't know specifically other
comments you may have heard--but I believe that these things
may have been so successful as it relates to the electrical
grid, that there is now a significant imbalance in the amount
of projects that are intermittent and not persistent, and we
need to make sure for our country to be successful in the near
term that we get back to making sure that we have the
appropriate amount of baseload to manage both of those things,
because if the sun is not shining, the wind is not blowing, and
we don't have baseload, then we have brownouts and blackouts
and we have higher electric prices for every American. So it's
the balance of trying to achieve that.
And then, the other point that I may have said today, which
I would stand by, is that it's great that people thought hey,
let's put massive incentives around EVs, around electric
vehicles against fueled cars that have liquid fuels, but in
America, if there is innovation neutrality, in North Dakota we
are producing a carbon-negative barrel of oil. We are producing
carbon-neutral biofuels. I mean, America built 200,000 gas
stations without a dime of public money or taxpayer incentives
because the market created that, and we have an opportunity to
have innovation and an innovation lane around decarbonizing
liquid fuels. So, we just have to make sure we have the
balance, because we need it all. We need it all to win the
competition we are going to win.
Senator Wyden. Well, first of all, on the electric front, I
am very much of your view there. I mean, we have had big
challenges in our part of the world. There's a transmission
issue. The two pieces that are really left out are how to deal
with electric and how to promote transmission. I am very
interested in working with you. I am going to take--as I run
back to the Finance Committee, where we are talking about these
issues--the view that you are open to continue working in this
space rather than coming on in and just saying we are going to
chuck it in the trash can, because I am always interested in
improving on something. I mean, the founding fathers said that
a new Congress is never bound by absolutely everything from a
past Congress.
So I am interested in improving it, but I am going to take
out of our discussion that you are open to working with me and
others in a bipartisan way. At one point, this was a purely
bipartisan kind of effort. We can talk about what happened,
because I thought it was a question of who was going to get the
credit, but I am going to take out of here that you will work
with me.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, you can count on it that I will, and you
can also count on it that I am going to be anchored in two
things--one is national security, so we shouldn't have
incentives that enslave us to getting all of our critical
minerals from a major power competitor, like China. And then
the other thing you can count on is that I am going to be
focused on the economy and affordability because if we can do
something for $60 a ton versus $900 a ton, I am going to choose
the $60 a ton of avoided CO2.
Senator Wyden. My time is out, but I am going to say the
idea of linking a lower carbon future with lower prices and to
focus on national security is a kind of triangle with three
sides that I can support, and I would like to work with you on
it.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Barrasso.
Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. Governor,
congratulations, great to be with you again. Thanks for our
time together.
As you know, the Federal Government controls hundreds of
millions of acres of land in the West. I mean, I can look at
this Committee, in our home states, and the well-being,
certainly in my home State of Wyoming, depends on strong
leadership at the Department of the Interior. The Department
must work with states and local communities to manage our
resources in a way that works for the people that actually live
on the land. And over the last four years, that has been a big
problem, as we have seen an Administration that seems to just
be punishing the West. The will of the people who depend on the
land, live on the land, take care of the land, was ignored the
last four years. So Governor, there is a long list of things
that I believe must be fixed, and I am going to ask for your
help.
Number one, in Rock Springs, Wyoming, the RMP--that stands
for the Resource Management Plan. As you and I know, and those
who are watching will know about now, the Bureau of Land
Management finalized that just last month--December 2024. They
did it not even a week after the Governor of Wyoming submitted
his appeal to the proposed plan, but they rushed out the door
with this. This final plan is going to devastate the people of
Southwest Wyoming. It's going to lock up millions of acres of
land that local communities and the entire state rely upon. The
Governor, our state legislature, the county commissioners, and
the local communities all strongly oppose what the Federal
Government is slamming down our throat. So will you commit to
work with my office and the state to undo this disastrous plan?
Mr. Burgum. Senator, I am familiar, having been Governor
until December 15th, because we had a similar experience in
North Dakota of having plans like this pushed on the State of
North Dakota. So yes, absolutely, you can count on me working
with you.
Senator Barrasso. Great.
In Wyoming, about two-thirds of our minerals under the land
are owned by the Federal Government--about half the surface
land and two-thirds of the minerals under the land. That means
that energy development in my state depends on cooperation from
the Department of the Interior. Wyoming's legislative leaders
would benefit from meeting with you directly as they plan the
state's energy future, and they ask you to commit to joining
our Wyoming delegation, as well as the Wyoming stakeholders to
talk about the future.
Mr. Burgum. I would enjoy that very much, and I have
enjoyed the relationship I had with Governor Matt Mead and now
Governor Mark Gordon, and we have been on regular communication
because there have been a lot of shared challenges between
Wyoming and North Dakota.
Senator Barrasso. And both the current Governor and former
Governor speak of you with great appreciation, great
admiration, and great respect. So I look forward to that.
Buffalo, Wyoming--last year, the outgoing Administration
finalized a resource management plan for Buffalo--the Buffalo,
Wyoming field office. This plan would ban new coal leasing in
the Powder River Basin, which is the most energy-rich area in
the country. We are America's energy breadbasket in Wyoming.
This short-sighted decision is an insult to our communities and
harmful for American energy security. If confirmed, would you
work with me to reverse this plan?
Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and I also know that when you talk
about critical minerals, that Powder River coal includes many
of the critical minerals that we need for defense, for
technology, and for the future of this country. And so, rather
than, you know, this blanket approach of trying to block that
type of energy development, we need to be thinking about how
innovation can help us solve multiple problems at once.
Senator Barrasso. I am going to move now to oil and gas
leases. The outgoing Administration has a disgraceful record on
oil and gas management. It blocked and locked our production at
just about every turn. It hasn't issued leases for a lease sale
held over four years ago. They still haven't issued the leases,
and it deferred over 600,000 acres from leasing in Wyoming that
were previously cleared for oil and gas production. If
confirmed, will you work to quickly issue those leases and
offer additional acres for leasing?
Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and Senator, as I have stated
before, North Dakota has faced the same--what I view as
absolutely that there is a case in federal court which I am
positive the ruling is going to be that the current
Administration--the Biden Administration--did not follow the
law relative to holding required lease sales.
Senator Barrasso. The next area is sage grouse. Wyoming is
the home to a large population of greater sage grouse and its
habitat. For over 15 years, Wyoming has been at the forefront
of adopting new management approaches to protect the species.
Our state has led successful efforts to balance conservation
with economic development. Again, the Biden Administration
proposed to designate over 600,000 acres in Wyoming as ``Areas
of Critical Environmental Concern.'' That is going to lock up
thousands of acres in Wyoming, halting production and
development across the state. Would you be willing to reopen
the Department's greater sage grouse management?
Mr. Burgum. I have been advised that the rule of decision
came out this morning. I don't want to put myself into making a
forward statement that I would have to recuse, but I would just
say, for my time as Chairman of Western Governors, I am
familiar with the use of designations to try to restrict energy
development, even when you might have a species like the sage
grouse that is neither on the Endangered or the Threatened
list.
Senator Barrasso. I will ask one final question, and you
have done quite a bit on the grizzly bear already, so let me
talk about federal grazing. The Department of the Interior is
critical in its role for management of federal lands across the
West. Almost half of the land in Wyoming is owned by the
Federal Government. Land managed under multiple use is required
by law to be managed without impairment of the productivity of
the land. These are public places that people from Wyoming
depend on accessing for their livelihoods, agriculture, all the
ranching activities, recreation, mineral development. Congress
directed grazing, timber harvesting, recreation, and energy and
mineral production to take place on federal lands. Will you
support the multiple-use mandate the law mandates for federal
land?
Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, I do, Senator. And since we talked
about wildfires today, grazing reduces fuel load. Timber
management appropriately reduces fuel load. Surface development
can create roads paid for by the private sector that support
our firefighters. All of the multiple use is a component of a
comprehensive re-thinking of how we think about fire management
on federal lands.
Senator Barrasso. Yes, thank you, Governor.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Cotton.
Senator Cotton. Governor, welcome and congratulations. We
reached the regrettable point that we often do in the Senate
where almost everything has been said, but not everyone has
said it. I will refrain from saying a lot of what has gone
before me, but I will say, for the record, that I want to
associate myself with the comments of my Republican colleagues
about the need for significantly increasing energy production
while also being responsible stewards of our public lands and
waters.
There is, however, one issue I don't think has been
discussed yet under the Endangered Species Act. And I think
it's a scandal of the first order. I am surprised it has not
gotten more attention as of late. On January 3, the New York
Times published a story about the so-called snail darter. It
was a species that was designated as endangered by Fish and
Wildlife back in the 1970s. The entire thrust of the story is
that a zoologist basically made up this species of snail darter
all for the point of halting construction of the Tellico Dam on
the Little Tennessee River. After many years of delay, it
finally took an act of Congress to build that dam. An academic
cited in that article said this is a not uncommon practice,
creating new species, when there is really no difference
between other extant, non-endangered species for what he called
the ``downstream conservation implications,'' which is to say,
activists creating species and calling them endangered to stop
the construction of a dam or a power generation plant or a
housing development.
And again, this is something that was admitted publicly in
the New York Times by some of these activists. That is why I
say I think this is a scandal of the first order. Can I get
your commitment, in light of these admissions, to go back and
reexamine Endangered Species Act listings and identify any
other potential false designations?
Mr. Burgum. Senator Cotton, you raise a very important
issue, which is the weaponization of federal rules, you know,
meant to actually protect wildlife, but to do it in a way where
it's being used, not to protect wildlife, but it's being used
to stop legal activities, like the multiple-use scenario we
were just talking about with Senator Barrasso. Again, it's just
a legal weapon, and it's used for fundraising. It is used for
groups that are just trying to block our nation's progress. And
so, I agree with you completely. And you mentioned the New York
Times. If that article was someplace else, you know, but the
fact that the New York Times wrote that article, I found also
to be a remarkable admission of at least one case where there
was abuse of the Endangered Species Act relative to its
intended use. So yes, you can count, absolutely----
Senator Cotton. Thank you. I appreciate that because also I
think, not in light just of this public admission, but also the
West Virginia case and the Loper Bright case, there can be
legal infirmity in a lot of our federal bureaucracy's past
decisions. So I appreciate your willingness to take a look at
that once you are on the job.
Thank you very much.
The Chairman. That concludes round one. We are going to do
a quick round two with some follow-ups that a few members have
asked.
I want to talk to you briefly about the fact that public
lands represent a massive public asset, and yet an accurate
valuation is something that we don't have, and that undermines
informed decision-making about their use and their management.
What steps would you take, if confirmed as Secretary, to
improve the transparency in this area and ensure federal land
valuations reflect their value to the American people?
Mr. Burgum. Well, I would just say, this idea that I will
call America's balance sheet is something that the Trump
Administration has quite a bit of enthusiasm for in discussions
with the Treasury nominee, Scott Bessent, Commerce nominee,
Howard Lutnick, and even Speaker Mike Johnson called me a few
weeks ago and said hey, what's this American balance sheet
idea? I mean, I think for our standing in the world for us to,
you know, talk non-stop about what our liabilities are, we
should also be fluent, just as any business would be, to be
able to talk about what our assets are, and the assets of this
country, I think, outpace anyplace in the world because of the
care that we have given, in particular, to the public lands--
the surface, the subsurface, and the offshore. And we have
proven time and time again that we can do it better, cleaner,
and safer than anyone else here.
If I am a timber company, and I own timber land, and it has
not been harvested, I put that on my balance sheet. If I have
timber land and I have planted young trees, I put it on my
balance sheet at a different valuation. When we protect U.S.
lands and then don't cut a tree and then they burn down, we not
only produce enormous amounts of emissions and enormous amounts
of carbon, but we also effectively wasted the public's asset.
And I think it's part of our duty in the role, if I have the
privilege of being nominated here, but all of us as elected
officials, to make sure that we are getting a return on the
nation's balance sheet for the benefit and the use of the
American people.
The Chairman. Great.
Mr. Burgum. So understanding that number, I think, is key.
I would just say one last thing--people say, oh, it's going to
be really hard. It's really hard to develop it. We did this in
North Dakota. When I took office, they said well, we have no
way of knowing what our undeveloped minerals are, and we found
a young software company that was able to figure out precisely
what the future value of every one of the wells in North Dakota
on public land would be worth. It has been used for estate
planning. If grandma dies and she has only got 10 percent of
one well, they can figure out the value for that. If we can do
that there, we can figure it out for the whole country.
And just as I said to Speaker Johnson, we are required, as
a nation, to conduct a census within every ten years--not every
ten years, but within ten years, do a census. That is hard work
but we figure out a way to do it. I would think if Congress
stood up and said, hey, every agency, every bureau, every
department of the U.S. Government needs to figure out what
their asset value is, then we get after it and we come up with
a number and then we can make these trade-offs. And when you
take--when you do by executive order and take hundreds of
millions of offshore subsurface out of leasing, and that is
viewed as a costless event, at least we could have the trade-
off and say yes, some people thought it was important to take
that off of the table, but what did it mean for the American
people? Did we just take trillions of dollars of future revenue
out of the pockets of our future generations?
And so, I think again, creating a financial understanding
where we could have an honest discussion about some of these
executive actions that are happening at the end of this term,
for example, would be useful for all Americans to understand.
The Chairman. Thank you. I appreciate that.
I have got another question that I was going to ask
regarding PILT. In the interest of time, I am going to forgo
that. I will just give a very brief statement.
PILT, Payment in Lieu of Taxes, the Federal Government came
up with it. Congress came up with it about 50 years ago to help
offset the burden states carry, states with a lot of public
land because they do not receive any property tax revenue from
it, so it's supposed to offset that. In some parts of the
country where there is a lot of public land, this works out
okay. In other parts, it's pennies on the dollar compared to
what they would get if they could tax the land even at its
lowest valuation, its lowest rate. So I would love to talk to
you about PILT reforms and making PILT, generally, a priority
because a lot of these communities rely on it for fire, search
and rescue, schools, safety, and so forth.
Senator Heinrich.
Senator Heinrich. Governor, Senator Daines mentioned a very
specific challenge with the Endangered Species Act, but as a
governor, you know that one of the best ways to head off those
conflicts is to prevent species from ever being listed by
recovering them through proactive, voluntary conservation at
the state level. Senator Tillis and nine of his Republican
colleagues and I have a highly bipartisan bill called the
Recovering America's Wildlife Act that helps states do exactly
that. And in fact, North Dakota's former game and fish
director, Terry Steinwand, was one of the architects of that
legislation. It has strong support from the Association of Fish
and Wildlife Agencies, from many of the conservation groups
that you mentioned in your exchange with Senator Justice.
Does that sound like the kind of approach that you could
work with Senator Tillis and I on?
Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, Senator Heinrich. I think, again, a
super-sound principle there, which is to do the work to keep it
off of any kind of federal designation, working collaboratively
with the states. I had the pleasure of working with our game
and fish commissioner, Terry Steinwand, for six of my eight
years as Governor.
Senator Heinrich. Right.
Mr. Burgum. He had almost a 40-year career in wildlife
management. It's people like that that I know and respect
across all the states. I know you have got them in New Mexico.
I know we have them in Utah. I mean, the people that work in
game and fish at the state level that are working on these
things, I just, I haven't met somebody from the federal level
that flies into North Dakota that cares more about the soil,
the air, the water, the fish, the wildlife, than the people
that we have at the state level. And we should just--this
sounds like you are entrusting this back to the states, and
that is where it belongs.
Senator Heinrich. And it was really an idea that grew out
of asking all of those agencies, like, what's the right way to
approach this? And they said, well instead of, you know, just
having an emergency room, which is what the Endangered Species
Act effectively is, let's try to give wildlife primary care.
Let's intervene when it's much cheaper and much more effective
and you can really move the needle.
You and I talked a little bit about tribal water
settlements. Those are incredibly important for water certainty
in the West, especially with all the, you know, all the
conflicts we have, not just in the Colorado Basin, but also in
the Rio Grande Basin and other western basins. If you are
confirmed, will you commit to continuing the Department's work
to both resolve legal claims around tribal water settlements,
but also just implement the existing water settlements that
have already been made?
Mr. Burgum. Well, you have my commitment to work on those
important issues.
Senator Heinrich. Great.
I am going make one other quick statement. I know you heard
from my friend and colleague from Idaho, and we have done some
great work together on cleaning up abandoned mines. We don't
necessarily agree on wind generation, but I would simply remind
you that onshore wind is in that basket of multiple use. And
so, you can always hold it to the same standard as oil and gas,
but you can't legally, at least, unilaterally deny legally
permitted wind generation. So with that, thank you for all of
your answers today.
The Chairman. Senator King.
Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First, I want to associate myself with your comments, Mr.
Chairman, on determining the asset value of what we own. It's
astounding that that doesn't exist. And one of the things that
would contribute to, as we discussed previously, is adequate
maintenance budgets. If you know the asset value, there are,
sort of, standard industry percentages that should be applied
in order to determine a maintenance budget. So I believe that's
an important step.
I presume you believe climate change is a problem, is that
correct?
Mr. Burgum. Yes, I believe that climate change is a global
phenomenon, for sure.
Senator King. And I noted the biographical material that in
2021, as Governor, you set a goal for North Dakota of carbon
neutrality by 2030, to be achieved in a variety of ways. And as
you mentioned, you have really worked hard on the carbon
neutrality of fossil fuel extraction and fossil fuel use. I am
a little worried today, though. You keep distinguishing between
intermittent and baseload. Would you agree that renewable
resources, solar and wind, for example, can be developed if
they are adequately--if they can be integrated into the grid in
a safe and reliable way?
Mr. Burgum. Yes, they can, and it's not for me, personally,
for any political reasons that I distinguish, it's just because
of physics--the physics of the grid. If we don't have enough
baseload, and it's the baseload that we have that has allowed
our nation to make the investments into the intermittent----
Senator King. I just, I don't want the word--in a former
life I developed both baseload and intermittent resources--I
don't want the word baseload to be code for no renewables.
That's not what you are saying, is it?
Mr. Burgum. No. We need a balance, but they cannot--the
intermittent, if you want to call them renewables, is used as a
positive word, but this is a fact of life, is that they are
intermittent. And when they are intermittent, until we have
storage solutions, and we are years away from having
significant enough cost-effective storage to support that, we
need to have the baseload or the intermittent doesn't even have
a life.
Senator King. But it can be integrated. In your case, in
North Dakota, 35 percent of your electricity comes from wind
power. I presume your grid works?
Mr. Burgum. Well, it's super-stressed, as it is around the
country. We are in parts of two grids. We are part of MISO
going east and we are part of SPP going west. And you can have
days when the rated capacity is 30, but you got a day when the
wind is blowing, the wind is blowing so hard, it drives all the
baseload off of production. And then the next day, it's 20
below and there is no wind blowing and we have got no wind and
then you got to, like, crank up the baseload again. And so,
there is----
Senator King. That's one of the most important reasons
that--we have talked about innovation--we need to work on
storage. You would agree, I think, that renewables or
intermittents, whatever you want to call them, plus storage,
equals baseload?
Mr. Burgum. Yes, but right now, at a much higher cost. And
so, then, of course, we want it to not only be reliable, we
also want to have it be affordable. And so, that is part of
what we have to look at as a nation is, what cost are we
willing to take on to try to achieve those goals. And I believe
if it's all-of-the-above, if we can decarbonize traditional
fuels cheaper than we can subsidize some of the renewables,
then that should be looked at fairly and equitably and
economically, because that is a better path forward for every
citizen, if we can do it more affordably.
Senator King. I wouldn't disagree with that, but we have
talked a lot about innovation, and I am a great believer in
American innovation, and the cost, for example, of solar panels
has gone from, I don't know, $70 a kilowatt, down to 70 cents.
I mean, battery storage--for example, in Maine there is a
project underway for an 85-megawatt, 100-hour grid-scale
storage at a reasonable cost because it's not based on lithium
ion--it's based on iron. And so, we are moving into a period
where innovation, I believe, will bring storage down. And of
course, as you know, wind and solar are the cheapest forms of
energy today on a levelized basis, understanding that storage
and backup is part of that calculation. But I hope that you
will work with the Department of Energy. Mr. Wright was here
yesterday, and one of his business interests was in geothermal
and batteries. So I just, when I hear baseload used sometimes
in these contexts, it sounds like no more renewables. I don't
think that's a sustainable path for this country, and it's
certainly not a way of meeting the challenge of climate change,
which you have acknowledged is a serious one.
Mr. Burgum. No, it's--we need all forms of electricity and
we need more of it in the very near term. And so, this is not
about one versus the other, this is about how do we drive
forward and increase the amount of electricity we have in the
country. So I am a both--all of the above--in terms of our
approach of how we do it, but we have got to do it in a way
that we have affordability and reliability.
On the storage side, there is a future, but having been in
tech for 30 years, batteries get better at about two percent a
year, and that is what it has been for 30 or 40 years, and
there is no breakthrough coming. Yes, it's improving, but it is
not like the microchip, you know, which doubles the power----
Senator King. It may not be Moore's Law, but I think the
amount of resources that are going into this research at the
Department of Energy and in other places, and the development
of this iron-based, grid-scale storage, there are opportunities
for significant baseloads. I like your answer where you said we
need it all, and I appreciate having that on the record.
Mr. Burgum. Yes.
Senator King. Thank you very much, Governor, I appreciate
your being with us.
Mr. Burgum. Thank you. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. I ran down the hall to get here. I
didn't want to miss my chance for a second question, second
round of questions. And again, thank you for your service as a
governor, all the way through your career. You have shown a
real inclination, both through your government service and
through your philanthropy to engage in the community and to go
to the community. I think the letters from the tribes and what
I have heard from our tribes in Colorado, that you are held in
very, very high esteem, I think, across this country, and I
think that is going to be a powerful thing.
I have one curious question. I think they are still doing
it, where the Western Governors' Association, do they still
meet with the Secretary of the Interior in December, or have
they stopped doing that?
Mr. Burgum. There has been a tradition to meet with the
Secretary of Interior when they have their annual meeting in
Washington, DC, which is usually in late January, early
February. And I would look forward to having the opportunity
for that invitation, if you know anybody there that could send
me one.
Senator Hickenlooper. Well, just, I knew that other
governors were watching our discussion, so I wanted to make
sure I got that on there.
Mr. Burgum. I think your own Governor Polis might be the
current chair, so maybe----
Senator King. This governor thing is getting kind of thick,
isn't it?
[Laughter.]
Senator Hickenlooper. Well, it's distilled down pretty
much--just us left.
I want to talk a little bit about the Colorado River, and
it's at least--it's a 25-year drought, a longer-term drought,
and we are able to go back--this is the geologist in me--but
there are sediments throughout the Grand Canyon that can be
correlated, and this appears to be the worst drought in 10,000
years. I mean, this is a serious drought, and you have 40
million people that depend on this, and we have been working
aggressively with the Lower Basin states, and the Upper Basin
states, and one of the things now is, even before you began
running for the highest office, the work that you did around
water in North Dakota, with roughly the largest investments in
water infrastructure ever, but half of it was for making sure
you have clean water and then half of it was to make sure you
are protecting against flood. I thought it was a great model
for what the Department of the Interior would have.
And I think you have to look at the Colorado River in that
sense, too. I think that the Bureau of Reclamation plays a
significant role there, but I think a strong leader being able
to find and incentivize those innovations of how do we make
sure we are saving water and doing more with the water that we
have, rather than fighting over it? And there is a long
tradition in the West that ``Whiskey is for drinking--water is
for fighting,'' as we said last week.
Anyway, just speak a little bit about that, of how you look
at working with Colorado River, but there are a whole number of
river basins that are in drought right now.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, and we have got a tremendous water
resource in this country when we think about the Great Lakes,
you think about the Columbia, you think about the Yukon. The
Mississippi sometimes is flooding when the Colorado is in
drought. We just, maybe, don't have it in all the right places
at the right time, and we have got population centers. And so,
I think, again, with, you know, smart planning, innovation,
collaboration, when we have been successful in North Dakota
with public-private partnerships, it has included, you know,
solutions, again, with great help from Senator Hoeven playing a
huge role on the federal. I mean, one of the projects we have
there is a couple billion dollars. It's one-third federal, it's
one-third local with the local sales tax, I mean, huge buy-in
locally, and then the state stepping up and participating. And
when we did that together--this project is going to get done in
six and a half or seven years as opposed to 20 or 25, or never,
you know, because we have that experience in North Dakota, too.
We have water projects at the federal level that were started
in the 1960s that still haven't fulfilled their full mission.
Senator Hickenlooper. Right.
Mr. Burgum. So anyway, I think there is an opportunity to
work together to come up with solutions.
Senator Hickenlooper. And that timeliness does magnify what
can get done.
The Bureau of Reclamation has done a lot work in Colorado
and across the West, and I think I am universal that I haven't
heard a single senator, Republican or Democrat, complain about
how they have approached this. They have a bunch of projects
that are mid-way, and I am hopeful that--I know there is a lot
of talk about a tax cut and a lot of talk about how they are
going to pay for that tax cut. Hopefully, we can protect those
funds that have been committed to various water projects,
because the worst thing you can have, and this has happened to
Colorado two or three times over the past several decades,
where you get halfway, you are building something and then all
of a sudden, the support goes away.
Mr. Burgum. Yes, agree. I mean, having secure and
predictable forms of capital for these projects, when you have
the instability, the uncertainty, then the people that are
bidding on the projects bid higher. They have to take out more
risk on their side. They, you know, there are insurance
companies that are supporting them on the private side saying,
don't go, don't do this. When we were able to go to the public-
private partnership and we could create certainty that they
would have the permits, that lowered the cost dramatically, and
not only the time to get it done, but it also lowered the cost.
Senator Hickenlooper. That is music to my ears, and we
agree completely. So we will remember this conversation three
years from now, I am sure. Who knows what the future will
bring, but I appreciate that commitment to the long-term
solutions, I think, that is necessary on almost every level in
this country.
Mr. Burgum. Great, thank you, Senator.
Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
One quick item for the record. As you know, I passed
legislation to keep horses in the Theodore Roosevelt National
Park. I am a horse fan. You and your wife are horse fans. I
just want to know that you will commit for the record to
continue to work on that very important issue with me.
Mr. Burgum. Absolutely. And for the record, people should
know that as popular as Senator Hoeven is in our state, the
horses in the national park have even more followers on social
media than he does.
[Laughter.]
Senator Hoeven. Yeah, no question.
And then, just one final item. I think you have
demonstrated to both sides of the aisle your absolute
willingness to work with everybody to achieve good outcomes and
a good outcome for this country. And that is exactly what we
want in somebody that goes into these important positions. And
so, thank you. Thank you to Kathryn. And then, just if there is
anything for the record that you want to add to the record, I
would just give you this opportunity before turning things back
to the Chairman.
And again, I want to thank both the Chairman and the
Ranking Member as well.
Mr. Burgum. Well, the only thing I would do quickly is
close with gratitude to Chairman Lee and Ranking Member
Heinrich. Thank you for your time ahead of time. Thank you for
making your members available to me for meetings ahead of time.
And thanks for this great dialogue and discussion today.
I received a lot of invitations from members to come and
visit. I would be remiss if I didn't, before I leave, extend an
invitation on behalf of Senator Hoeven, Senator Cramer, and
myself to come to the grand opening of the Theodore Roosevelt
Presidential Library and Museum, which is currently scheduled
for July 4, 2026. And it's an official USA 250 event, and of
course, it's going to be an opportunity to tell the story of
leadership and citizenship and conservation that really began
during the time when Theodore Roosevelt spent time in North
Dakota. His wife and his mother tragically died on the same day
in the same house, on Valentine's Day of 1884. And he had a
newborn infant daughter that was two days old. He handed that
off to his sister and he got on the train and he was deeply
despondent and went West and remade himself from--he had a
childhood that was full of sickness, and he went from a sickly
easterner and became a rough-and-tumble westerner, a cowboy,
learned the hard way out there with a lot of time in the saddle
and built the Elkhorn Ranch.
And from then, he developed his thoughts about conservation
in this country, and we know the story that went from there.
That, you know, led him to become the Rough Rider that he was,
that propelled him into becoming a governor, formed the
National Governors' Association, saved football, I mean, now
the largest viewed sport, and the NCAA was formed because
Theodore Roosevelt was listening to concerns from mothers, as
too many of their sons were dying of head injuries playing
football in the Ivy League schools, without protections. And
so, he said, let's come up with some standard safety
protections.
So there are many stories about T.R. that haven't been
told, like that, but the only President to receive a Medal of
Honor for his time in the military, one of his sons also
received a Medal of Honor, who was there at Normandy in World
War II, but an incredible story. And of course, the Nobel Peace
Prize that he received for negotiating the settlement between
Russia and Japan. And he wrote more books than all the other
Presidents combined. He wrote more letters than Jefferson and
Washington. We are in the process of digitizing all of that.
This will be first digital presidential library. It will be one
of the must sustainable buildings built in North America. And
it's in the heart of the Badlands that he loved, at a gateway
community that goes into the Theodore Roosevelt National Park.
And in closing, I would say, you know, someone asked, this
Fourth of July are you going to have fireworks per tradition
when you open a presidential library? All living Presidents are
invited, so we may, if they all show up, we may not need to
have additional fireworks.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Burgum. But it will be great because there is a lot of
what we know about Theodore Roosevelt that still lives on
today, and think about the discussions we are having. The
Panama Canal wouldn't have happened without him, and how
important that was for our country during World War II, and how
important it is for our future going forward.
And water, of course, in Arizona, some of the original
water systems in Arizona were dedicated and created by Theodore
Roosevelt. One of the first wildlife refuges that he made in
the country was in North Dakota at Stump Lake. He sent us on a
way to build out the National Park System as we know it right
now. So it's with a bit of serendipity and a great amount of
excitement that, as Secretary of Interior, I will look forward
to being at that opening along with all of you. This Committee
is all officially invited as of right now. It would be great to
have you all there.
And with that, again, thank you, Senators, and especially,
thank you Senators Hoeven and Cramer, for your support, your
friendship, and your mentorship for all these years.
The Chairman. Thank you, Governor.
It has been a great hearing, and I appreciate the
participation of all the members of the staff, members of the
Committee, and especially our Capitol Police force for keeping
us safe today.
I am sure that given all the time he spent in North Dakota,
Theodore Roosevelt learned correctly to pronounce the name of
the animal that is called the ``Bizon.''
[Laughter.]
Senator Burgum. It does have a z, I agree with Senator
Hoeven.
The Chairman. It's got a z. It's a z. Well it's not a
silent z, it's just an invisible one.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. With all that----
Senator King. Mr. Chairman, do you know what the lady
buffalo said to her little boy as he was going off to school?
The Chairman. Oh no, oh no, I don't. What did she say?
Senator King. ``Bye, son.''
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. That's it.
Senator King. I would also mention that Teddy Roosevelt----
Senator Hoeven. I love it. I just love it.
The Chairman. Going to open up a whole new debate----
Senator King. He coined the term ``malefactors of great
wealth.'' I will just leave it at that.
The Chairman. Hoeven is going to be telling that one for
weeks.
The record will stand open until 6:00 p.m. today for
questions for the record.
We stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 1:08 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
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