    [Senate Hearing 119-44]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

    .                                                       S. Hrg. 119-44
                               BURGUM NOMINATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                       to

                  CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF DOUGLAS J. BURGUM
                        TO BE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

                                   __________

                                JANUARY 16, 2025

                                   __________

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                           Printed for the use of the
                   Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    60-020                     WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                            MIKE LEE, Utah, Chairman
    JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
    JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
    STEVE DAINES, Montana                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
    TOM COTTON, Arkansas                 MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
    DAVID McCORMICK, Pennsylvania        ANGUS S. KING, Jr., Maine
    JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada
    BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        ALEX PADILLA, California
    LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska               RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota

                      Wendy Baig, Majority Staff Director
                Patrick J. McCormick III, Majority Chief Counsel
                     Jasmine Hunt, Minority Staff Director
                     Sam E. Fowler, Minority Chief Counsel

                                 C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Lee, Hon. Mike, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Utah............     1
    Heinrich, Hon. Martin, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from New
      Mexico.........................................................     3
    Hoeven, Hon. John, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota..............     5
    Cramer, Hon. Kevin, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota.............    14

                                    WITNESS

    Burgum, Douglas J., nominated to be Secretary of the Interior....    16

              ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

    Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians:
        Letter for the Record........................................   126
    Alkire, Janet:
        Letter for the Record dated January 10, 2025.................     7
        Letter for the Record dated January 11, 2025.................   198
    All Pueblo Council of Governors:
        Letter for the Record........................................   127
    American Catfishing Association et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   128
    American Council of Engineering Companies:
        Letter for the Record........................................   130
    American Exploration and Mining Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   131
    American Forest and Paper Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   133
    American Gas Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   134
    Biteman, Bo et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   136
    Burgum, Douglas J.:
        Opening Statement............................................    16
        Written Testimony............................................    19
        Responses to Questions for the Record........................    74
    Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma:
        Letter for the Record........................................   138
    Chukchansi Indians:
        Letter for the Record........................................   140
    Citizens for Responsible Energy Solutions:
        Letter for the Record........................................   141
    Coalition of Large Tribes:
        Letter for the Record........................................    27
    Coeur d'Alene Tribe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   142
    (The) Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes of the Flathead
      Nation:
        Letter for the Record........................................   144
    Cramer, Hon. Kevin:
        Opening Statement............................................    14
    Cramton, Jack:
        Communication for the Record.................................   135
    Curley, Crystalyne:
        Letter for the Record........................................   201
    Domestic Energy Producers' Alliance:
        Letter for the Record........................................   146
    Eklutna, Inc.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   147
    GLAAD:
        Letter for the Record........................................   149
    Great Plains Tribal Chairmen's Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................     8
    Heinrich, Hon. Martin:
        Opening Statement............................................     3
    Heritage Waters Coalition:
        Letter for the Record........................................   151
    Hispanics in Energy:
        Letter for the Record........................................   152
    Hoeven, Hon. John:
        Opening Statement............................................     5
    Indian Gaming Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   153
    Institute of Makers of Explosives:
        Letter for the Record........................................   154
    Koi Nation of Northern California:
        Letter for the Record........................................   155
    Lee, Hon. Mike:
        Opening Statement............................................     1
    Little Shell Chippewa Tribe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   156
    Lower Yellowstone Irrigation Project:
        Letter for the Record........................................   157
    Lytton Rancheria:
        Letter for the Record........................................   158
    Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara Nation:
        Letter for the Record........................................    10
    Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation:
        Letter for the Record........................................   159
    Menominee Indian Tribe of Wisconsin:
        Letter for the Record........................................   160
    Moapa Band of Paiutes:
        Letter for the Record........................................   161
    Montana Trappers Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   162
    NAFOA:
        Letter for the Record........................................   172
    National Alliance of Forest Owners et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   163
    National Mining Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   165
    National Rural Electric Cooperative Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   167
    National Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   169
    National Trappers Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   170
    National Tribal Energy Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   171
    National Water Resources Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   148
    Navajo Nation:
        Letter for the Record........................................   174
    Neiman, Chip et al.:
        Letter for the Record........................................   175
    NSSF:
        Letter for the Record........................................   177
    Oglala Sioux Tribe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   179
    Osage Nation:
        Letter for the Record........................................   181
    Outdoor Heritage Coalition:
        Letter for the Record........................................   182
    Outdoor Recreation Roundtable:
        Letter for the Record........................................   183
    Pala Band of Mission Indians:
        Letter for the Record........................................   185
    Pascua Yaqui Tribe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   186
    Portland Cement Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   187
    Pueblo of Santa Ana:
        Letter for the Record........................................   188
    Puyallup Tribe of Indians:
        Letter for the Record........................................   189
    RV Industry Association:
        Letter for the Record........................................   190
    San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   192
    Santa Clara Pueblo:
        Letter for the Record........................................   194
    Seminole Nation of Oklahoma:
        Letter for the Record........................................   195
    Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate of the Lake Traverse Reservation:
        Letter for the Record........................................    11
    Southern Ute Indian Tribe:
        Letter for the Record........................................   196
    Spirit Lake Nation:
        Letter for the Record........................................    12
    Tribal Alliance of Sovereign Indian Nations:
        Letter for the Record........................................   199
    Tunica-Biloxi Tribe of Louisiana:
        Letter for the Record........................................   200
    Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians:
        Letter for the Record........................................    13
    U.S. Chamber of Commerce:
        Letter for the Record........................................   202
    Velasquez, Kasey:
        Letter for the Record........................................   204
    Viejas Tribal Government:
        Letter for the Record........................................   203
    Yavapai-Apache Nation:
        Letter for the Record........................................   205

                               BURGUM NOMINATION

                                  ----------

                           THURSDAY, JANUARY 16, 2025

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in
    Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Mike Lee,
    Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

                  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE LEE,
                         U.S. SENATOR FROM UTAH

        The Chairman. Good morning, and welcome to the Senate
    Energy and Natural Resources Committee. This is a hearing that
    we are holding today to consider Governor Doug Burgum of North
    Dakota to be the Secretary of the Interior. It is an honor and
    a privilege to serve in this capacity as Chairman during such a
    pivotal moment for our nation and issues surrounding its energy
    needs and land management policies.
        I want to extend a warm welcome to Governor Doug Burgum,
    and to his wife, Kathryn, thank you for being here. And thank
    you both for joining us today, and you will have a chance in a
    moment to introduce anyone else in the audience who is here
    with you today that you would like to.
        Governor Burgum, your nomination to lead the Department of
    the Interior comes at an urgent time, as Americans under the
    policies of the Biden Administration are suffering from
    skyrocketing energy prices that drive up the cost of everything
    from gas to groceries, from housing to healthcare, to
    restrictive land use policies that tend to stifle growth
    generally. The challenges facing American families are mounting
    and they are staggering.
        This past November, voters decided to send a clear message.
    They demanded bold leaders willing to break from the status quo
    and take a fresh approach, one less likely to result in this
    awful pattern of inflation in which we found ourselves over the
    last four years. Your nomination has garnered remarkable
    support from tribes, from organizations, businesses, and people
    of all stripes and backgrounds, particularly those who were
    most uniquely and directly affected by the U.S. Department of
    the Interior and its policies. The dozens of letters of
    support, nationwide, further underscore your reputation as a
    leader, one who is committed to change, committed to fostering
    relationships, and they reflect pretty widespread confidence in
    your vision and in your readiness to lead this organization.
        The Department of the Interior, of course, plays a central
    role in addressing many of these challenges, particularly in
    states like Utah, my state, where federal land management
    shapes nearly every aspect of our day-to-day life because,
    well, the Federal Government owns two-thirds of the land, about
    67 percent in my state. And there are other members of this
    Committee who represent other public land states who understand
    the relationship between the Department you have been called to
    lead and their day-to-day lives. Nearly one-fifth of the land
    in the United States is under the jurisdiction of the U.S.
    Department of the Interior. In my state, it's much higher than
    that, of course. And this influences everything from energy
    development, to public land access, tribal relations, and
    wildlife management. In Utah, where the Federal Government
    controls more than two-thirds of the land, the impact of these
    policies is profound. The decisions made in Washington ripple
    through our economy and our communities in ways that are
    unmistakable and not always positive.
        Unfortunately, these policies have taken a troubling turn
    during the Biden Administration. Expanding national monuments
    like Bears Ears and Grand Staircase without meaningful input
    from local communities has jeopardized access and harmed the
    locals, who call these places home. The Public Lands Rule and
    restrictive management plans have placed unnecessary and often
    insurmountable barriers in the way of responsible resource
    development and land access. On his first day in office,
    President Biden issued a moratorium on oil and gas leasing,
    severely damaging our energy security, and locking away
    resources we needed to power our homes and our economy.
        Now, over time, these decisions have revealed a pattern of
    disregard for the multiple-use mandate that federal land
    management is supposed to uphold, and to which it has been
    subject for nearly 50 years. The consequences of these policies
    extend, of course, far beyond Utah. As wildfires devastate
    California, it is clear that mismanagement of public lands has
    consequences that often reach far beyond rural areas. Federal
    agencies must reevaluate their approach to wildfire prevention,
    prioritizing forest management strategies that mitigate the
    risk of catastrophic blazes. Utah and other western states know
    too well the devastation that these fires cause, and addressing
    this crisis must be a very key priority for the Department.
        Reversing course will, of course, require bold leadership
    and a willingness to embrace innovative solutions. The
    Department of the Interior must take a hard look at the leasing
    restrictions of the last few years, which have steered
    development toward low-potential areas while blocking access to
    high-value resources, like critical minerals. These are the
    building blocks for our economy and our national defense and we
    can't afford to let bureaucratic delays jeopardize our future.
        Housing shortages across the West present another daunting
    challenge that we have to face. By working with state and local
    governments to identify underutilized federal lands, the
    Department could finally, meaningfully alleviate the housing
    crisis in places like Utah, where the demand for affordable
    homes far exceeds supply. Bills like my HOUSES Act would
    provide a long-term strategy and a strong framework for such
    partnerships, showing that federal land policy can drive
    solutions rather than creating obstacles. The Colorado River, a
    lifeline for millions across the West, faces growing threats.
    Effective communication and support from the Department of the
    Interior as states negotiate the river's future will be
    critical to safeguarding that vital resource.
        Our national parks also require renewed attention. These
    iconic landscapes are a source of pride and a major economic
    driver for the gateway communities surrounding them. According
    to some polls, they are one of the few features of the Federal
    Government that people actually like, so we have got to take
    care of them. The Department must work to balance accessibility
    with conservation, ensuring that visitors can enjoy these
    treasures without compromising the future. This will require
    stronger partnerships with local stakeholders to address
    infrastructure needs and manage visitor impacts.
        On the regulatory front, the misuse of the Endangered
    Species Act has caused significant harm by halting development
    projects and undermining state authority. While the ESA is an
    essential tool for protecting imperiled species, it must be
    applied judiciously and in coordination with local governments
    to avoid unnecessary conflict.
        Governor Burgum, your track record uniquely positions you,
    in particular, to lead the Department of the Interior during
    this challenging time. Your vision and your leadership will be
    instrumental to restoring balance to federal policies and
    ensuring that public lands are managed with accountability and
    with care. Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these
    challenges and charting a new course that reflects the
    principles of federalism and respect for local communities.
    Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these challenges
    and charting a new course, and I invite you to visit Utah as
    soon as you have a chance to see firsthand the opportunities
    and the challenges we face.
        The hearing that we are having today marks the beginning of
    an essential conversation about the future of the Department of
    the Interior, and I look forward to hearing your perspective
    and exploring ways that we can work together to address these
    pressing issues.
        Thanks again for your willingness to serve, and I really
    look forward to our discussions today. I am going to turn the
    time over now to our Ranking Member, Senator Martin Heinrich
    from New Mexico.

     OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH, U.S. SENATOR FROM
                               NEW MEXICO

        Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman, and Governor Burgum,
    welcome to the Energy and Natural Resources Committee.
        We had a great conversation last week. I am very much
    looking forward to hearing your answers to the questions today.
    And I, too, want to begin by acknowledging the horrific
    wildfires in California over the last couple of weeks. Having
    spoken to many of my members on the dais, I know you are going
    to get some questions about that, and in particular about
    firefighters, and how we make sure that they are supported.
        The Department of the Interior has responsibility for an
    incredibly broad array of issues, from conserving the places
    that Americans love to spend time with their families, to
    protecting and recovering our most iconic wildlife species, to
    delivering water to cities and farms across the West and
    fulfilling our nation's trust responsibilities to tribal
    nations. Pretty much any job that involves responsibilities
    that range from elementary school students and health care to
    bison is a pretty big job. Public lands are where we go to camp
    and hike and hunt and fish and spend time with our families.
    They are where our veterans go to seek the peace and solitude
    that their service to our country could not always provide. And
    while there are some who argue that the very existence of
    public lands--places like Yosemite or the Bitterroot National
    Forest--is unconstitutional, most Americans know that the idea
    of lands that belong to everyone, no matter where they live or
    who their parents are or how thick or thin their wallet is, is
    one of the most democratic ideas of our nation. I hope you will
    join me in keeping public lands in public hands.
        The Interior Department is also the leader in meeting our
    nation's trust responsibility to tribal nations and upholding
    the treaty commitments that we, as a nation, made to tribes and
    their members. As a nation, as we discussed in my office, we
    routinely fall short of meeting those commitments. We can and
    we must do better.
        As the relentless pace of climate change brings bigger
    floods, hotter summers, higher winds, as we have seen in
    California, and diminished snowpack, which we are experiencing
    in New Mexico, it is also driving the long-term aridification
    of the western United States. Over the next 50 years, it is
    expected that New Mexico will have 25 percent less water than
    we have had historically. And we are not alone in that. The
    Colorado River, which provides drinking water for 40 million
    people, irrigates billions of dollars' worth of crops, provides
    essential habitat for fish and wildlife, and will likely never
    return to those early 20th century flows that we used to be
    able to expect. Through the Bureau of Reclamation, the
    Department of the Interior must play an active role in helping
    the West transition to that new water reality.
        And as you know, the Interior Department is also an energy
    department. As we make the transition to a cleaner energy
    economy, the land and water managed by the Department will play
    an indispensable role in producing the energy that we need, as
    well as facilitating the ability to move that energy around the
    country. From geothermal and hydrogen, to solar and wind, the
    Department's work is at the center of our energy future.
        Governor, I very much look forward to hearing your plans on
    all of these topics and more, and I think we will have some
    very active questions from all of our members today.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.
        We are now going to hear introductions from the North
    Dakota delegation.
        First, we will hear from Senator Hoeven, and then in a
    moment, from Senator Cramer.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN HOEVEN,
                     U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA

        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Chairman Lee, and also Ranking
    Member Heinrich, I appreciate that, and thanks for holding this
    hearing today.
        Doug, Governor, welcome to you, and Kathryn, welcome to you
    and Doug, to your whole team. It's great to see you guys.
    Thanks for your incredible service on behalf of North Dakota,
    and it really is an honor today to introduce you to our Energy
    and Natural Resources Committee.
        Senator Cramer, welcome to you, as well. Good to have you
    here.
        I am not sure where to start. I have known Doug for more
    than 30 years, and we have working in various capacities for
    the duration, and as well as just being a very good friend,
    both Doug and Kathryn, to myself and my wife, Mikey--so, on
    behalf of her as well, greetings. And thanks for your
    willingness to serve.
        Of course, grew up in Arthur, North Dakota and then went to
    school at NDSU, home of the Bison--the mighty Bison--and then
    went to a lesser-known school for--Stanford, I think--for an
    MBA, right? But after that, went to work for McKinsey
    Consulting. My staff wrote up this beautiful introduction, but
    I think I am just going to talk a little bit about our shared
    time together and friendship. He came back, and actually there
    was this nascent software company, Great Plains Software, and
    he, along with some of his relatives, mortgaged the family farm
    and bought it on a flyer and went to work and started hiring
    these kids from across--young people from across North Dakota
    to develop this software company. And I went to his office, I
    don't know, a long time ago, over 30 years ago, and he was in
    there, he was putting these 8x8, I guess, floppy discs into
    sleeves and then he would put them into boxes and then put them
    into larger boxes, and they were shipping it. And I said, Doug,
    you know, what is this? What are you doing? Well, I then
    learned all about--and if you know Doug, you know what I mean,
    it's true--all about PC software. And he built that company up,
    sold it--or went public in 1997 with it--sold it to Microsoft
    in 2001 and that became Microsoft Business Solutions. And so,
    Microsoft Business Solutions today had its genesis in Great
    Plains Software.
        Doug ran Microsoft Business Solutions for a number of
    years, kept it there in Fargo. It was the largest location for
    Microsoft outside of Bellevue, Washington, and it had, I don't
    know, 2,000 or more North Dakotans working for them from across
    the state. Left that after a while, started some more
    companies. Went into philanthropy, including some really great
    things for our North Dakota State University and many other
    things. Revitalized, in many respects, downtown Fargo with his
    real estate development. In 1997, when I was Governor, I gave
    him the Theodore Roosevelt Rough Rider Award, which is our
    highest award. And I can remember him looking at me at the time
    and going, gee, John, I hope I am not done accomplishing
    things. And obviously, you weren't, Doug.
        Ran for Governor in 2016--won. Ran again in 2020 and won
    overwhelmingly, mostly because of Kathryn, we think, but won by
    a big majority. Did a great job as Governor. Ran for President
    and actually was the first of the presidential candidates, when
    he left the race, to endorse President Trump. And President
    Trump, right from the get-go, and Kevin will tell you the same
    thing, when we talked to him about Doug, he was really excited
    about Doug from the jump. And I am thinking, well, the guy ran
    against you, really? But he never had anything but great things
    to say about Doug, and of course, Kathryn, which we all
    understand.
        But he endorsed President Trump, and what Trump saw was
    somebody who truly understands energy, and the Trump
    Administration has such a big energy agenda that he knew this
    was the guy to lead it. So it's not just about leading the
    Department of the Interior as Secretary, but leading the
    National Energy Council, and that is what President Trump has
    really seen in him. But that being said, because there are a
    lot of things that Interior touches--I mean, this is a guy that
    loves the outdoors. He has got a ranch. He loves to be outside,
    riding horses, you know, rounding up cattle. He loves to hunt.
    So he loves the outdoors. He loves the National Park System. He
    is a historian. I mean, Angus King, he would even challenge you
    for trivial knowledge of history, and important knowledge of
    history too, but I mean, just any detail. Head-to-head, you two
    guys going into detail, it would be fun to listen to for a
    while.
        And so, he loves the outdoors. He loves the park system,
    and talk to folks that he has worked with in Indian Country.
    Every single tribe in North Dakota--we have five reservations.
    We have a lot more tribes than that, but every single tribe has
    endorsed him. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these letters be
    introduced into the record.
        The Chairman. Without objection.
        [Letters of support follow:]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Hoeven. And more than 180 different tribes across
    the country have endorsed him too. That says something. That
    says something about a guy who is willing to sit down and talk
    to folks. And he--this is a guy that fits this job. He really
    does. He covers all the bases. And so, I hope everybody on this
    Committee will take time and visit with him and understand
    where he is coming from and understand that he will take time
    to understand your issues and work with you because I think you
    will find this is the right man, the right fit for this job.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Senator Cramer.

                OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. KEVIN CRAMER,
                     U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA

        Senator Cramer. Thank you, Chairman Lee, and Ranking Member
    Heinrich, and congratulations to both of you on your leadership
    of this important Committee, and it was great to listen to
    John. And by the way, let me start out by doing what I always
    do best, and that is agree with John Hoeven. It has worked very
    well for me in my career. But what struck me right away is, as
    he starts talking like a governor, is I look around the room,
    then he brings up Angus. I'm thinking I'm in a former
    governors' club, for crying out loud. You guys, you are going
    to have a lot of great things to talk about.
        You know, there is so much to be said, and John has done it
    very, very well. So I am just going to highlight a couple of
    things, and to John's point about President Trump's confidence
    in Doug Burgum, he called me a lot, the President did. He even
    called me when Doug was his opponent and said, I like that Doug
    Burgum guy a lot. And he said, he is just so smart and he is so
    good and he has got a big brain and he understands everything.
    And I said, he does. He does, and he will be very, very
    valuable to you in your service.
        And I think, as a consumer, as Governor Burgum and First
    Lady Kathryn are consumers of these incredible federal assets
    of ours, our great, rich properties, as recreators,
    understanding the value that it brings to agriculture, that
    they bring to extraction--responsible extraction of minerals, I
    think one of the things that oftentimes maybe does not get
    talked about with Governor Burgum is, he is not just an oil man
    from an oil and gas producing state, he is first and foremost,
    a conservationist. He is from the land of Roosevelt. And he
    absolutely, relentlessly carried the ball to ensure that the
    Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library gets built and that it
    gets built in Medora, North Dakota, at the gateway to Theodore
    Roosevelt National Park, so that it can become the symbol of
    responsible extraction of minerals and responsible production
    of federal assets in a way that both exercises great care for
    the land and the water and the air, as well as great economic
    opportunity for the people that own these assets. That is a
    remarkable balance that he brings to this. And so, it's such a
    great honor for me to be able to be here with him to talk about
    the multiple uses of our federal assets in ways that recognize
    their value in so many ways.
        And then, I want to--and I will just wrap up with this,
    because John did such a great job, but I want to read one short
    paragraph from one of the letters from one of our tribes. And I
    know that many tribes throughout the country have written
    letters. Over my years of public service in North Dakota, and
    working hard at relationships with tribal leaders and
    recognizing government-to-government relationships, the thing
    that has impressed me the most, perhaps, about Doug Burgum as a
    governor, was the respect that he always showed for them and
    that has been reciprocated because he did the hard thing--he
    earned the trust that had been lost, not by former governors so
    much as just history, as history. It is hard work to do that.
        And so, I am just going to close, Mr. Chairman, I just want
    to read a paragraph from Chairwoman Janet Alkire from the
    Standing Rock Sioux Tribe in North and South Dakota. Probably
    one of the more challenging relationships in recent years has
    been over the Dakota Access Pipeline, and that particular
    tribe, which with different leadership could have divided
    people in a big way. But even through that, through all of
    that, he earned their support, and I am just going to read this
    short paragraph, and then I will end with my thanks to you for
    allowing me this opportunity. And my thanks to you, Doug, for
    allowing me this blessing.
        ``Governor Burgum understands the Native American dynamic,
    which, if you are non-native can be difficult to maneuver. But
    he does it well. He understands the importance of honoring
    traditional values and culture, promoting family first,
    remembering who we are and where we came from, the struggles we
    endure, and community wellness.''
        And so, it's just my honor to be able to introduce him
    today, and I look forward to a successful confirmation and
    working together.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Cramer, and also, Senator
    Hoeven.
        Governor Burgum, the rules of the committee require that
    ``at any hearing to confirm a Presidential nomination, the
    testimony of the nominee shall be under oath.'' Accordingly, if
    you will please stand and raise your right hand, I will
    administer the oath.
        Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
    give to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
    shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
        Mr. Burgum. I do.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Now, before I have you begin your opening statement, I will
    ask three questions that are addressed to each nominee who
    comes before the Committee.
        First, will you be available to appear before this
    committee and other congressional committees to represent
    departmental positions and respond to issues of concern to the
    Congress?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes.
        The Chairman. Are you aware of any personal holdings,
    investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of
    interest or create the appearance of such a conflict, should
    you be confirmed and assume the office to which you have been
    nominated by the President?
        Mr. Burgum. No.
        The Chairman. Are you involved or do you have any assets
    that are held in a blind trust?
        Mr. Burgum. No, I do not.
        The Chairman. I will invite you now to introduce your
    family before you give your opening statement.

     STATEMENT OF DOUGLAS J. BURGUM, NOMINATED TO BE SECRETARY OF
                              THE INTERIOR

        Mr. Burgum. Well, good morning. Thank you, Senator Lee.
    Thank you, Senator Heinrich. I am grateful to have the
    opportunity. Thank you for your leadership on this Committee.
        And I do want to begin with gratitude, as I always do, with
    a special thank you to my friends, Senator Hoeven and Senator
    Cramer, not just for their kind words this morning, but their
    incredible service to the country, and to North Dakota over
    their lifetimes.
        And Senator Lee, as you acknowledged, I am deeply grateful
    for the support of all of my friends, my family, especially our
    three kids, and my amazing and courageous former First Lady, my
    wife, Kathryn Burgum, who is joining me here today.
        It is certainly an honor to have been nominated by
    President Trump to serve as the 55th Secretary of the Interior.
    As Senator Hoeven said, I grew up in Arthur, North Dakota. This
    is a tiny town of about 400 people. We didn't even have paved
    streets when I grew up. It was all gravel, and it was 400 if
    you counted everybody that was also staying in the Good
    Samaritan Home--that's how we got to 400.
        My father was a World War II Navy officer who served in the
    Pacific. My dad died when I was freshman in high school, and my
    mom went back to work in higher education. I was blessed to
    learn from them about service, about leadership, and about
    sacrifice, and certainly, from both of them, about a love of
    the outdoors. Growing up, I worked in our family's grain
    elevator. Every job I had, all the way from junior high through
    the end of college was one that required showering at the end
    of the day, not at the beginning of the day. And I even worked
    my way through undergrad at North Dakota State as a chimney
    sweep, which I loved that job because it was one where you
    could move up fast and always stay in the black. I thought it
    was the perfect career.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Burgum. After grad school, as John mentioned, I had an
    opportunity to go directly from undergrad to Stanford for an
    MBA. And then later, when I was working in Chicago, I saw my
    first Apple II computer, and that was the moment, literally,
    where I said I need to get into the software business. And I
    had inherited 160 acres of farm ground from my dad, and I
    literally bet the farm on that tiny software startup called
    Great Plains. With a dream and hard-working team members we
    grew to a global public company with over 2,000 team members
    serving 140,000 businesses in over 100 countries around the
    world. I spent my entire professional career in the private
    sector until I was elected Governor in 2016. And for the last
    eight years, I have been blessed with the privilege of serving
    the citizens of the great State of North Dakota.
        My time as Governor has been a valuable preparation for the
    opportunity and the privilege to potentially serve in the role
    of Secretary of Interior, as our state and my duties
    specifically as Governor there put me in contact with many of
    the bureaus inside the Department. In North Dakota, we share
    geography with five sovereign tribal nations. State and tribal
    relationships in North Dakota have sometimes been challenged,
    but the current partnership is historically strong because we
    prioritized tribal engagement through mutual respect, open
    communication, collaboration, and a sincere willingness to
    listen. I am grateful for the many tribal nations, both in and
    outside North Dakota, for expressing their support for my
    nomination.
        As Governor of North Dakota, I also served as Chairman of
    the North Dakota Land Board, which manages our state's land and
    minerals with the goal of yielding a return for a state
    endowment fund that significantly funds public education. I
    chaired the North Dakota Industrial Commission, which oversees
    16 agencies that are related to a variety of things, including
    energy research, the state's geologic resources, energy
    production, and transmission. The Governor or North Dakota also
    serves as the Chair of the State Water Commission, overseeing
    billions of dollars of water resources and projects. All of
    these are parallel responsibilities to Interior, and often
    interacted with Interior agencies.
        North Dakota, of course, is blessed with a rugged natural
    beauty, including the majesty of the Theodore Roosevelt
    National Park, which is home to Theodore Roosevelt's Elkhorn
    Ranch, which is considered by many to the cradle of modern
    conservation. And of course, we have beautiful Badlands. I
    would like to note here on the record that our Badlands are
    significantly badder than South Dakota's Badlands.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Burgum. Just tremendously badder, not even close.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Burgum. But we, in addition to that, we have got great
    prairies, world-renowned agriculture. We have got amazing
    hunting and fishing, four-season outdoor recreation, and much,
    much more.
        In North Dakota, we created a prosperous economy by
    sustainably developing our natural resources, along with our
    respect for the land and the wildlife, and at the same time,
    having among the cleanest air and the cleanest water in the
    country. During our tenure, North Dakota experienced among the
    lowest unemployment in the nation and the highest real GDP
    growth. Demographically, our state went from one of the oldest
    states to one of the youngest. We attracted record levels of
    talent and investment capital. I say this because our success
    was underpinned by the understanding that we live in a time of
    tremendous, tremendous abundance, and we can access that
    abundance as Americans by prioritizing innovation over
    regulation.
        If given the opportunity to serve as the Secretary of
    Interior, I will bring those experiences and those lessons
    learned to the leadership of the tens of thousands of dedicated
    professionals within the Department of the Interior, which
    brings us to President Trump's vision for a vibrant future that
    we can achieve together. The American people have clearly
    placed their confidence in President Trump to achieve energy
    dominance. And by energy dominance, that is the foundation of
    American prosperity, affordability for American families, and
    unrivaled national security.
        Today, America produces energy cleaner, smarter, and safer
    than anywhere in the world. And when energy production is
    restricted in America, it doesn't reduce demand, it just shifts
    production to countries like Russia and Iran, whose autocratic
    leaders not only don't care at all about the environment, but
    they use their revenues from energy sales to fund wars against
    us and our allies. President Trump's energy dominance vision
    will end those wars abroad and will make life more affordable
    for every family in America by driving down inflation. And
    President Trump will achieve those goals while championing
    clean air, clean water, and protecting our beautiful lands.
        Next to T.R. National Park we are building the Theodore
    Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum to honor the leader
    who advised America to ``speak softly, and carry a big stick.''
    In our time, President Trump's energy dominance can be
    America's big stick that would be leveraged to achieve historic
    prosperity and world peace. The Department of the Interior, in
    cooperation with the U.S. Congress, this Committee, and the
    states will play a pivotal role in achieving the outcomes to
    make the world safer and America even better for our children,
    our grandchildren, and generations to come.
        I thank you for inviting me here today and look forward to
    your questions and our discussion.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Burgum follows:]
        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        The Chairman. Thank you, Governor Burgum. We will now begin
    our first round of five-minute questions. We will alternate
    back and forth between Republicans and Democrats, and I will go
    first, then Senator Heinrich and so on and so forth in order of
    seniority and arrival at the hearing.
        I want to start by talking briefly about the Antiquities
    Act. This is a law passed over a century ago by Congress. It
    gives the President power unilaterally to declare national
    monuments. Now, there is a restriction in it that requires
    national monuments occupy no more land than is compatible--the
    smallest area compatible with the interest to be protected by
    the monument. These have become something of a political
    football in parts of the country, especially in my state. In
    Utah, President Clinton designated the Grand Staircase-
    Escalante National Monument in 1996. President Obama added the
    Bears Ears National Monument in 2016, shortly before he left
    office.
        Now, both of these designations were made over the
    objection of the people of Utah and their elected
    representatives. President Trump later reduced the size of both
    monuments in 2017, after he got elected, to bring them more
    into conformity with the Antiquities Act requirement for
    minimal boundaries. Then, in 2021, President Biden re-expanded
    them, exceeding the scope of the law and disregarding local
    input. As I explained to President Biden at the time, this is
    the size of two Delawares within my state that have been moved
    into this very restricted use classification. The point is not
    that there aren't beautiful things to protect in the state, but
    the line was drawn so big and the monument was made so
    expansive, in part because local leaders were not consulted and
    to the extent that they were heard, their counsel was ignored.
        So Governor Burgum, I would like to invite you, when you
    visit Utah, to meet with those whose voices were ignored by the
    Biden Administration during those monument re-expansions. Will
    you work with me to try to fix that current mess and try to
    figure out how best to proceed and to make sure that the
    Antiquities Act-designated monuments don't exceed the
    restriction within the statute itself?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Lee, for that
    important question. The 1906 Antiquities Act, of course, was
    signed into law by President Roosevelt himself, and it was, as
    you stated multiple times, it states very clearly that it's the
    smallest possible area to protect those objects to be
    protected, and its original intention was really to protect, as
    it says, antiquities areas like, I would say, Indiana Jones-
    type archeological protections. These are essential that we
    protect these areas as a country and that is what the law
    intended. But I would look forward to working with you, and
    particularly in the area of local consultation, because when
    the Federal Government overreaches into a state like yours that
    already has over 60 percent of its land in public lands and
    restricts that use, it has got tremendous impact on tribes, on
    the local communities, and all those around. And I just think
    it's important that we strike the right balance. I look forward
    to working with you on this issue.
        The Chairman. Thank you. I appreciate that.
        Housing is another area that I would like to address
    briefly. There is a particularly acute housing shortage in the
    West, where the presence of federal land--not just the
    presence, but the predominance of federal land available for
    housing frequently results in shortages. It just makes a lot of
    things difficult. And it's not as though we have one part of
    the state that is all federal and another part of the state
    that is all non-federal. It's all intermingled. And as a
    result, it impacts all kinds of things.
        Now, many of our communities in states like Utah and
    Nevada, among others, find ourselves feeling sort of like we
    are islands, floating islands within a sea of federal land, and
    that just constrains growth and makes our constraints on our
    housing supply that much more dire. I would love to work with
    you on a bill that I have introduced, that I have worked on for
    several years, called the HOUSES Act, in addition to looking
    for developing other creative ways to address the housing
    affordability crisis in the West. In your view, how can the
    Department of the Interior help address the housing crisis in
    areas like, as is the case in my state, where the presence of
    federal land often inhibits community needs?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I understand that one of the great
    challenges we are facing in this nation right now is housing
    affordability, and in my discussion and friendship with
    Governor Spencer Cox of your state, I know that it's a high
    priority for him and for the state. I think there are
    opportunities for us to accomplish both. I mean, like I said,
    we are in a time of abundance. We have got federal lands
    abutting urban areas, and we maybe have other areas that maybe
    need to be protected, like we have done in North Dakota. As
    Governor, sometimes we have done land swaps. So we trade state
    land for private lands to provide better outcomes for both of
    those pieces of land. And I think there certainly are
    opportunities here.
        Public lands, in general, some like the national parks,
    absolutely we need to support and protect every single inch of
    those, but in other cases, we have got a multiple-use scenario
    for our lands, and I believe there are pathways that we can
    find, particularly in states like yours and others that have 50
    to 60 percent or more of your land held by the Federal
    Government, that we can find appropriate solutions to help
    address the housing. I look forward to working with you on
    that.
        The Chairman. Yes, thank you, Governor.
        I see my time is expired. We will turn the time over to
    Senator Heinrich.
        Senator Heinrich. Governor, I actually want to continue on
    that same vein. I had a very long and detailed question here
    written by my staff that I am going to depart from and just go
    to the heart of the issue, which is: I think what people are
    concerned about--and this was a very hot issue this year
    because of legal action--is the idea that we would somehow, in
    a wholesale way, divest our public lands. So talk a little bit
    about how we can stay true to our conservation history, make
    sure that the things we do on our public lands--especially,
    well not especially, but economically, recreationally, and as
    you know, they play such an essential cultural role in states
    like mine--can be supported while making smart decisions about
    individual parcels.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Heinrich. I think we
    have to look no further than New Mexico for the answer to the
    fact that we can find the balance because--as I know Senator
    Hoeven and I hate to acknowledge--New Mexico passed North
    Dakota as the number two oil and gas producer in the States,
    and yet, your state has got a tremendous record of protecting
    cultural and historical lands and providing that balance. And
    so, I think there is certainly the opportunity for us to find
    that balance going forward where we can protect the land that
    we need to protect, but also solve issues, whether it's housing
    or whether it's resource development that may be of interest to
    the tribe and the local communities.
        Senator Heinrich. And that's something we really pride
    ourselves on in New Mexico, is that we have been able to strike
    a balance that we have been able to be an energy leader on many
    fronts, and at the same time, we have created a number of
    national monuments that are not controversial, that are deeply
    supported by local leaders, by veterans groups, by tribes, by
    hunters, and fishermen alike. So I would just simply ask that
    before the Department makes wholesale changes to conservation
    designations in the State of New Mexico, at least, that you
    would meet with myself and any local leaders who helped to
    create those designations in the first place.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, absolutely, I would look forward to those
    discussions with you, and I think, again, as you have
    described, the key to this is the local consultation. As
    Senator Lee and other states have experienced, there have been
    incidents where there has been complete and total opposition
    and no local consultation. And I think, again, my experience as
    Governor and working with tribes and working with local
    communities in North Dakota, whether it's grazing associations,
    county commissioners, mayors, rural residents, I think the
    consultation is key.
        Senator Heinrich. And part of that consultation is also
    those tribes that have both current and historic connections to
    those places as well, right?
        Mr. Burgum. Absolutely.
        Senator Heinrich. Great.
        As a former outfitter guide, I am really quite excited that
    this Senate and this body just passed the EXPLORE Act. It's the
    first major piece of outdoor recreation legislation. Senator
    Barrasso was incredibly involved in that, as was Senator
    Manchin. Permitting reform was something I worked on in that
    piece of legislation. And it's kind of a recognition of the big
    economic driver of our public lands that often doesn't get the
    same attention that energy and other uses get. Outdoor
    recreation in New Mexico is responsible for something like
    29,000 jobs and billions of dollars of impact. On a national
    scale, it's over a trillion-dollar economy.
        So talk again a little bit about how we can balance those
    competing issues, as you did as Governor, and support that
    outdoor recreation economy, because it is growing and it is
    particularly critical to our rural gateway communities.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, first, I would just like to say this is a
    really important topic, but it's also a passion of mine. As
    someone who has spent my life as an avid outdoorsman, I was
    very pleased to get the full endorsement of the Outdoor
    Recreation Roundtable for this job, which represents that
    trillion-dollar industry.
        Senator Heinrich. I think that's where we first met.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, it represents all of these different
    aspects. And I think the opportunity for, in most states--I
    recognized this as Governor, and we created an Office of
    Outdoor Recreation while I was Governor and continue to invest,
    and whether that's access to fishing and hunting, public access
    on public lands, we have got a number of great things going on
    in North Dakota that we have done there that have been really
    helpful, including using technology. We took all the posting
    requirements in our state, and we got all the landowners, the
    pheasant hunters, all the waterfowl hunters, and got everybody
    to agree on that. And we created a tool where, even for
    hunting, you can look on your phone and find out whether the
    land is posted or not posted. And it might be posted no for
    deer hunting, yes, for pheasant hunting.
        Senator Heinrich. Right.
        Mr. Burgum. And it includes the phone number and it is
    posted, but if you call me and talk to me, I might let you on,
    but then the landowner's name and the phone number is right
    there. So we have been able to find tools to bring together
    landowners and sportsmen on both private lands as well as
    public lands to try to make sure that we can keep that outdoor
    economy rolling.
        Senator Heinrich. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Senator Daines.
        Senator Daines. Chairman, thank you.
        Governor Burgum, welcome, as well as welcome to the First
    Lady of North Dakota. Good to have you both here.
        If confirmed, you will be eighth in line of succession of
    President of the United States, Governor. And that goes in line
    with when these departments became part of the U.S. Government.
    Interior goes back to 1849. And the oldest agency within
    Interior is the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). I think it's
    only fitting, before I get into my questions, my remarks, if I
    might submit a letter for the record from the Coalition of
    Large Tribes (COLT), of which three of my twelve federally
    recognized tribes in Montana are part of COLT. Of course, you
    have five federally recognized tribes and members of COLT. I
    just read the letter that they wrote in your support.
        It says, ``It has been incredible for COLT tribes to have
    such a close supporter nominated to the Secretary's office. He
    is someone in whom we have deep trust and confidence. We have
    gone to him with our most complex, difficult issues over many
    years. He is exactly the kind of leader tribes need at the
    Interior Department.'' And they close the letter by saying
    this, ``Governor Burgum has COLT's highest recommendation and
    endorsement to serve as the next Secretary of the Interior.''
        Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit this letter for the
    record.
        The Chairman. Without objection.
        [Letter of support from COLT follows:]
       [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Daines. Governor, last week, the Fish and Wildlife
    Service denied Montana and Wyoming's petitions to delist the
    Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem and Northern Continental Divide
    Ecosystem grizzly bears because these two populations have
    exceeded recovery targets by so much that the service no longer
    believes these two populations are even distinct. We should be
    celebrating the fact that the grizzly bear has recovered as an
    example of a great species now that has recovered and is
    prolific across these ecosystems. But sadly, this ruling coming
    out of FWS punishes Montana's successful grizzly bear recovery
    efforts. It's really completely backwards. We should be
    celebrating the recovery, but instead, we are now having to
    sacrifice to adjust to living with the bears, whether it's
    predation losses by livestock producers, as well as human
    safety. Sadly, many Montanans have been killed or badly mauled
    by grizzly bears. So the people back home take this very, very
    seriously. It has literally gotten the point of, along the
    Rocky Mountain front, west of Great Falls, where the playground
    at one of our schools, they have a high fence there to protect
    the children from grizzly bears when they go out for recess.
        The Service keeps moving these goalposts for delisting and
    returning these bears to state management, where it absolutely
    belongs, like we have done with the wolves. The Service set
    recovery numbers at 500 and 800, respectively, for the Greater
    Yellowstone Ecosystem and the Northern Continental Divide
    Ecosystem. The most recent estimate is now--best science--2,100
    bears in these two ecosystems. Governor Burgum, would you
    acknowledge that the data shows the recovery of these two
    populations and commit to working with me to delist them?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator Daines, I am aware of the data,
    and this is a super-important issue I know to Montanans. It's
    important to people also in Wyoming and Idaho. And I am with
    you. We should be celebrating when species come off the
    Endangered Species list as opposed to fighting every way we can
    to try to keep them on that list because, as you say, the
    complications. And the other thing you mentioned in your
    remarks is also the state. Having been a governor, I understand
    how dedicated the state fish and wildlife representatives are
    from Montana, from Wyoming, from North Dakota, South Dakota, I
    mean, all of the folks. As the Chair of the Western Governors'
    Association, I came to understand how dedicated those state
    officials are. I think there is a belief that when they come
    off of federal protection that they are unprotected. No, they
    are managed as they are, all the other species in the state, by
    the locals, who've got the closest data.
        So yes, I pledge to work with you on this issue.
        Senator Daines. Thank you, Governor.
        The Biden Administration has been slow-walking three
    critical permits for coal mines in Montana. The Bull Mountains
    Mine, south of Roundup, the Rosebud Mine that supplies coal for
    Colstrip, and the Spring Creek Mine in Southeast Montana are
    all in desperate need right now to finalize permits. The Bull
    Mountains Mine has already had to lay off hard working
    Montanans because the Biden Office of Surface Mining has
    refused to finish the needed reviews. My question is, when
    confirmed, will you prioritize completing these permits so
    Montana families don't lose their jobs?
        Mr. Burgum. Senator Daines, this is part of a larger crisis
    our nation is facing around electricity. We have a shortage of
    electricity, and especially, we have a shortage of baseload. We
    know that we have the technology to deliver clean coal. We are
    doing that in North Dakota. Senator Hoeven and others began
    these efforts over two decades ago. But we have an opportunity
    to decarbonize, produce clean coal, and with that produce
    reliable baseload for this country. And so, again, we
    absolutely would want to work with you on this issue because
    this is something that is critical to our national security.
    Without baseload, we are going to lose the AI arms race to
    China. And if we lose the AI arms race to China, then that has
    direct impacts on our national security and the future of this
    country.
        Senator Daines. Mr. Chairman, one just final statement to
    read and then I will complete my questions.
        I want to quickly close by highlighting the importance of a
    bill that I am working on with Senator King of Maine. We co-
    chair the National Parks Subcommittee. We are proud of the fact
    that no matter which way the gavel goes--it goes back and forth
    over time in the U.S. Senate--Angus King and I are always co-
    chairs, as it were, together, on behalf of our national parks.
    I am working with him to reauthorize the National Parks and
    Public Land Legacy Restoration Fund. This is critical to
    address the deferred maintenance challenge we face with our
    great public lands. President Trump signed the greatest
    conservation bill in 50 years when he signed the Great American
    Outdoors Act. And I thank Vice Chairman Heinrich for helping so
    much in getting that across the finish line. He signed that in
    2020. I hope I can count on your support for reauthorizing this
    program.
        Mr. Burgum. You can, absolutely. The Great American
    Outdoors Act, by President Trump, was a great step forward, but
    I know, from my own personal experience as Governor of North
    Dakota and working with the Theodore Roosevelt National Park,
    the amount of deferred maintenance that we have is probably
    even greater today across the park system than it was when that
    bill was passed. And so, we have to continue to invest in our
    national parks.
        Senator Daines. Great. Thank you, Governor.
        The Chairman. Senator Hirono.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Welcome. As part of my responsibilities to ensure the
    fitness of nominees before any of the committees on which I
    sit, I ask the following two initial questions.
        First, since you became a legal adult, have you ever made
    unwanted requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or
    physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature?
        Mr. Burgum. No, Senator, I have not.
        Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered
    into a settlement relating to this kind of conduct?
        Mr. Burgum. I have not.
        Senator Hirono. We received your testimony late yesterday,
    and you noted that, ``President Trump's energy dominance vision
    will end wars abroad.'' And President Trump has directed you to
    expand oil and gas drilling on a massive scale, which will lead
    to increased burning of fossil fuels. Now, the scientific
    consensus is that burning fossil fuels is a primary human cause
    of climate change. In 2017, then Secretary of Defense James
    Mattis, appointed by then President Trump, told the Senate
    Armed Services Committee that, ``Climate change is impacting
    stability in areas of the world where our troops are
    operating.'' In 2014, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said
    that climate change is a critical national security threat and
    a threat multiplier.
        Now, these are two Secretaries of Defense. They know
    something about war. Were you aware that they testified before
    the Senate Armed Services Committee a number of times that
    burning more fossil fuel is actually not going to result in the
    end of wars, but could very well exacerbate and cause wars?
    Were you aware of this testimony?
        Mr. Burgum. Senator, no, I am not aware of that specific
    testimony, but I do know that within fossil fuels that the
    concern has been about emissions, and within emissions, we have
    the technology to do things like carbon capture to eliminate
    harmful emissions at the same time.
        Senator Hirono. Well, the fact on the matter is that you
    have military leaders who acknowledge that climate change is a
    major issue, and for you to take the position that you are
    going to engage in actions that will result in the burning of
    more fossil fuel, it is troubling.
        As Secretary of the Interior, it is your duty to see that
    the Department carries out its mission to protect and manage
    our nation's natural resources and cultural heritage. If you
    are ordered by the President to act in a manner that is counter
    to the Department's mission, or to the Constitution, such as
    drilling in Bears Ears National Monument, will you do as the
    President asks because he wants to drill in that monument?
        Mr. Burgum. Senator, of course, as part of my sworn duty, I
    will follow the law and follow the Constitution, and so, you
    can count on that. And I haven't heard of any----
        Senator Hirono. Well----
        Mr. Burgum. Anything about President Trump wanting to do
    anything----
        Senator Hirono. Well, he certainly wants to----
        Mr. Burgum. Other than advancing energy production for the
    benefit of the American people----
        Senator Hirono. We all know that the President wants to
    ``drill, baby, drill,'' and in your testimony, you say that he
    has an energy dominance vision.
        So I would ask you that, should you be confirmed, that you
    will have these kinds of matters that you will have to decide--
    are you going to drill in a monument? Are you going to protect
    our natural resources? Or are you going to drill, baby, drill?
    So I raise that as a concern with you going forward.
        Compacts of Free Association: Last year, Congress renewed
    our Compacts of Free Association, and that comes within the
    purview of Interior. It involves Palau, Micronesia, and the
    Marshall Islands. I would like to get your commitment to
    implement the new Compacts of Free Association in accordance
    with the bipartisan law that was enacted last year.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, these Pacific Islands, in
    addition to the three that you mentioned that are part of the
    Compact, but also the others that are under the Insular Areas
    of Interior, are all critically important to national security
    for the United States of America. All of them have important
    military implications.
        Senator Hirono. Yes.
        Mr. Burgum. All of these are places where U.S. sailors
    fought and died during World War II. And with the aggression
    that China is showing in the Pacific, it is more important that
    we support them more than ever. I know that Hawaii plays an
    important role, including in things like with medical care for
    those residents of those islands, and I think it is important
    that the Federal Government does its share as opposed to
    putting the load on the state.
        Senator Hirono. Thank you. It sounds as though you have
    familiarity with the Compacts, for which I am gratified.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        Senator Justice.
        Senator Justice. Governor Doug, First Lady Kathryn,
    welcome. And my questions are going to be short and sweet, but
    I can tell you just this, that I think we share in the fact
    that energy--energy is the key. Energy, oh, gosh, I don't have
    my mic on. Okay. Good enough, I am talking loud enough anyway.
        But nevertheless, energy is such a key, such a key that
    opens every door, in my opinion, every single door. And the
    world is starving for us, America, to lead the way. And I
    believe we share that thought. I believe we share the thought
    that electricity, if we don't watch out, will become a crisis
    like we can't imagine, and we absolutely need to be prepared
    and move forward in that. But we have got a problem along the
    way. Permitting has gotten totally outrageous, and absolutely,
    we all want it to be fair and proper and not endanger our
    environment. We all share in that.
        But absolutely, I ask you, Governor, I ask you, please,
    tell us your thoughts on how we are going to approach this, how
    we are going to approach the issues with fish and wildlife and
    on and on and on. Please tell us.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I should say, Governor--now Senator--so
    great that you are here in the Senate, and what a fantastic job
    you did as Governor, and it was a pleasure serving alongside of
    you as another energy state. You have got everything, just--you
    get that we are in an energy crisis in our country, and the
    first place is actually related to electricity. Electricity is
    at the brink. Our grid is at a point where it could go
    completely unstable. We could be just months away from having
    skyrocketing prices for Americans. And of course, as we talked
    about in the AI arms race, we need electricity for
    manufacturing, and AI is manufacturing intelligence. And if we
    don't manufacture more intelligence than our adversaries, that
    affects every job, every company, and every industry. You
    understand this and we have got to get to work.
        The permitting, right now, in some of the queues in FERC
    for electricity, it's seven years or longer. And it's a
    completely--that queue in FERC is 95 percent intermittent
    sources and only five percent baseload. We need baseload to be
    able to allow the renewables to be part of the system. We have
    got to have the balance between those two, or the grid, which
    is like a giant machine, just doesn't work. And so, we have got
    to get to work, and permitting reform and speeding permitting,
    right now, we have stacked the deck where we are creating
    roadblocks for people that want to do baseload, and we have got
    massive tax incentives for people that want to do intermittent
    and unreliable, when the balance is out of whack, and we have
    got to bring it back in line. And we can do that and still
    achieve the objectives that we want to have about having a
    cleaner environment, because the U.S. has done that. We are the
    one nation on the planet that has actually reduced
    CO2 over the last 20 years. We are the ones that
    have done it. China has doubled their CO2 emissions
    in the same time frame.
        Senator Justice. Well, thank you, sir and thank you for
    your kind comments as well.
        Now, if I could just ask one more question and just shift
    just a little bit. We all know the outdoors touches our soul,
    and I am an outdoorsman like crazy. I have enjoyed hunting and
    fishing all across this nation, but especially in my home State
    of West Virginia. And I welcome you to come to West Virginia to
    experience that--just what I am speaking of. But I would just
    say just this--we have an attack on our sport of hunting and
    fishing. You know, hunters absolutely do so much to contribute
    to all the goodness, all across all of our lands, to all the
    wildlife, to all the different things that happen within the
    sport of hunting. And I know you share, you know, my love, just
    as much as I do.
        With all that being said, what will you do to ensure that
    we will perpetuate this unbelievable tradition to our youth, to
    our youth and all those to come? What will you do, sir?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, in North Dakota, we have taken
    steps, as I know other states have done, to create youth
    hunting seasons, youth hunter education, make it more
    available, create more opportunities, as we have also done for
    disabled and wounded veterans, but when we have public lands
    and we have public access, the greatest conservationists in our
    country--and some are probably listening today--but whether
    it's the, you know, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Mule
    Deer, Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, you name any of these
    organizations, they are the ones that raise the money that
    actually pour dollars into conservation in this country.
    Hunters, Safari Club, all of these different groups, and of
    course, President Roosevelt--Theodore Roosevelt--is one of the
    founders of Boone and Crockett. I mean, he was a hunter who
    also set the ethic for conservation for our country.
        And so, these two things go hand-in-hand. You cannot
    separate hunting from the love of outdoors, respect for
    wildlife, and dollars that flow back into habitat and making
    sure that we have got the privilege of hunting for the public.
    It doesn't matter who you are. In North Dakota, you can get a
    $20 tag and go on a hunt that is just as amazing as if you
    were, you know, going to Africa. I mean, it is a miracle that
    we have in this country, one of the few countries that has
    that, something we have to fight to protect to preserve.
        Senator Justice. Thank you, sir. And I have only got just
    one other comment. You know, President Trump is bringing to us
    amazing nominees, but in my book, this man, you know, just
    think just for one second--he is super smart. His track record
    is unbelievable. He has experience off the chart. If anybody is
    the pick of the litter, it has got to be this man. He has done
    an amazing job, but he has got courage like you can't imagine.
    Just think about this: he stood on one leg at the debate and
    absolutely, with a torn Achilles, and I have been a coach
    forever in basketball, and I have seen kids get a torn
    Achilles, and absolutely, it is one serious injury. How you did
    this, I will never know, but nevertheless, I give him kudos for
    courage beyond belief. Thank you so much, sir.
        Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Maybe you will tell us that someday. I assume
    it involved just biting on a leather strap until moments before
    you walked on the debate stand, but we can save that for
    another day.
        Senator King.
        Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I associate myself
    with the comments about sportsmen. Just several weeks ago, I
    accepted the chairmanship of the Congressional Sportsmen's
    Foundation, which I am greatly honored to do and look forward
    to working with you on those issues. I have visited your
    wonderful state, camped there, visited Minot with Senator
    Cramer, and I must say, Minot is the flattest place I have ever
    been in my life. One of the locals said the good thing about it
    is, if your dog runs away, you can still see him after three
    days.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator King. And I also want to compliment you. A lot of
    people talk about an all-of-the-above energy strategy. You did
    it. You implemented it in North Dakota. Over 30 percent--36
    percent of your electricity comes from wind. And I hope one of
    the projects you might undertake when and if you are confirmed
    is to convince your boss that wind power is not all bad. He is
    well known for his opposition to wind power, but you know that
    the benefits are there. Of course, baseload is also important.
    Storage is important to balance the grid. I understand that.
    But coming from a state where 35, 36 percent of your
    electricity came from wind, I hope you can talk to the
    President about the fact that wind has its virtues and can
    contribute significantly because we are, as you note, facing a
    huge energy challenge over the next 15 to 20 years to support
    the knowledge economy.
        Will you undertake that project?
        Mr. Burgum. Senator King, certainly you have got great wind
    resources in Maine. We have got good wind resources in North
    Dakota. Not every state is lucky to have the resources that we
    do, where the wind, well, maybe that flat ground helps us on
    that--very few trees to stop the wind. But I would say the key
    here, you mentioned it, it is baseload versus the intermittent,
    because we have got to have the right balance and we maybe have
    tipped a little too far in one direction. So I think that is
    the key piece for us, the key short-term emergency.
        Senator King. But you do see the value of wind power? A
    third of your state's electricity comes from that source.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, and most of that we export, and so, I
    think our neighbors are happy to have that. But I would also
    say that, again, we need an all-of-the-above strategy. It's
    what we have had in North Dakota.
        Senator King. And a balanced grid.
        Mr. Burgum. It's a balance, but we need more. We need more,
    and the thing we are short of most right now is baseload.
        Senator King. Well, Maine has an asset similar to yours,
    offshore. And the Department of the Interior executed several
    leases recently. I hope I can have your commitment to continue
    with those leases. They will produce enough energy for all the
    homes in Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. It's an enormous
    resource in the Gulf of Maine that can provide significant
    energy. As you may know, the capacity factor of offshore wind
    is significantly higher than terrestrial wind. So I hope that
    your Department will continue with the projects that were
    already underway. Will you commit to that?
        Mr. Burgum. I am not familiar with every project that the
    Interior has underway, but I will certainly be taking a look at
    all of those, and if they make sense and they are already in
    law, then they will continue. I think the key is, and I think
    President Trump has been very clear in his statements, that he
    is concerned about the significant amount of tax incentives
    that have gone toward some forms of energy that have helped
    exacerbate this imbalance that we are seeing right now, today.
        Senator King. You talked briefly to some of the other
    questions about permitting reform, and I was involved in the
    discussions with Senator Barrasso, Senator Manchin, and others
    about the permitting bill that, unfortunately, we couldn't get
    across the goal line at the end of last Congress. I presume
    that permitting reform not only is for generation projects, but
    transmission. Do you appreciate the difficulty of permitting
    transmission assets, particularly in the West?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, yes and I think that this is one of the
    challenges of our time, and it's one of the challenges that we
    need to undertake, because whether it's a transmission line, a
    pipeline, whatever it happens to be trying to get built, it
    just takes too long in our country. And if we don't have--it's
    one thing to be able to generate that electricity--but if we
    don't have the ability to transmit it to the places where it's
    needed, that is going to be a problem.
        Senator King. Exactly.
        Senator Daines has already mentioned the America the
    Beautiful Act that he and I have introduced. It's a refresh of
    the Great American Outdoors Act, one of the most successful
    initiatives of the Trump Administration. I remember working
    with Secretary Zinke on that project. So I am gratified to hear
    your support for that proposal.
        A final point we talked about is the backlog of maintenance
    in the national parks and public lands. One of the problems is,
    the Department has chronically underfunded maintenance on an
    ongoing basis. In other words, we are being asked to fix a
    backlog that, frankly, should not have existed. And I hope that
    you will work with the National Park Service and the Office of
    Management and Budget to be sure that a sufficient fund is
    allocated to ongoing maintenance so we don't continue to dig
    the hole deeper.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I agree with you on that. And this is one
    of the things, when I came in as a business guy into
    government, I was shocked to find out that we, in North Dakota,
    did not have appropriate formulas for funding deferred
    maintenance. I mean, everyone was happy to approve
    appropriations to build new buildings, but it was tough to get
    a dime to take care of the ones we already have. And I think
    this is something we are going to have to take a look at
    procedurally within Interior. I know that we have got over, you
    know, 2,400 locations, I am told, in terms of where we have
    people stationed.
        Senator King. Right.
        Mr. Burgum. We just have to make sure that not just the
    national parks, but across the whole Department, but we have
    got to get the formulas right because we are creating
    liabilities for future generations if we are not taking care of
    that deferred maintenance.
        Senator King. I can tell you that the formula right now is
    not right. So I encourage you to take that step. Thank you very
    much, Governor, for joining us, and we look forward to hearing
    from you further in this hearing.
        Thank you.
        Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Senator McCormick.
        Senator McCormick. Governor, good to see you. Kathryn, good
    to see you. We had a great meeting, I guess a week or two ago,
    and I promise to visit the baddest Badlands in the Dakotas. I
    am looking forward to that. And I know we have all these
    energy-state governors here, but in Pennsylvania, we like to
    think that the path to energy dominance goes through the
    Keystone State, so I am so glad to have you here before us
    today.
        When we met, we talked about an energy and innovation
    summit that I am planning to do later this year where we bring
    in energy companies, AI companies, as well as big investors,
    and an opportunity to really celebrate and also make more
    progress on President Trump's vision of energy dominance. I was
    happy to talk to you about that, and look forward to working
    with you and Secretary Wright on that, and just hoping I can
    start with getting your support to work with me closely on that
    and make that a reality.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I think it's a great idea, Senator. And I
    think it is absolutely true, the Keystone State is the key, and
    there is such a resource there. I mean wow, so few Americans
    understand that Pennsylvania is now producing 20 percent of our
    nation's natural gas. And of course, the fact that innovators
    in the private sector invested--the whole shale revolution that
    got created in this country has been a miracle. I mean, we went
    from being one of the largest importers of energy to one of the
    largest exporters. And at the time, you know, Russia, you know,
    they ran a campaign with all of the CyOps they have--we can't
    be naive. You know, they pounded Europe for ten years of
    getting everybody in Europe and Germany to shut down all their
    baseload so they could buy natural gas from Russia, then they
    invade--Russia invades Ukraine. The price goes up. Russia makes
    bank like they have never made before and they are funding a
    war against us. Germany then rushes to try to reopen their
    baseload power plants. They are doing all that. If America
    hadn't come to the rescue with LNG exports from our country to
    Western Europe, this thing could have escalated even beyond the
    tragedy that we see today in Ukraine.
        Senator McCormick. I couldn't agree more, and that really
    relates to my second question, which is, Pennsylvania, as you
    mentioned, the second largest natural gas producer, and yet,
    America's allies, even states across our great country cannot
    get access to LNG. So we need to really expand LNG exports, and
    that would be a huge win and create a lot of great jobs for
    Americans and a lot of great jobs for Pennsylvania. So as Chair
    of the National Energy Dominance Council, how will you work
    with the Administration to increase natural gas production and
    get new export terminals online in places like Pennsylvania as
    quickly as possible?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, of course, I learned in the private
    sector, in public companies you don't want to make forward-
    looking statements, and the Energy Council is yet to be
    created--hopefully by an EO, you know, early in this
    Administration. But one thing I would say that's not a forward-
    looking statement, it's just a fact, and I talked about it with
    Senator King, but you know, we have got, you know, 80 percent
    of the homes in Maine are still heating their homes with
    heating oil. It's 41 percent in New Hampshire. And we cannot
    get a pipeline with clean U.S. natural gas into New England to
    states like, you know, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine?
        And at the time of the Russian invasion, not only had
    Western Europe become dependent, we were offloading, you know,
    hundreds of thousands of barrels of dirty Russian heating oil
    into New England.
        Senator McCormick. Boston Harbor, right?
        Mr. Burgum. Yeah, so, I mean, it's like we have a national
    security issue and we have got to be able to get clean U.S.
    energy to every state. We need the transportation networks,
    whether it's pipelines or transmission lines to do that. We
    can't be--at a time of global risk like we are now in global
    national security--in a position where we are exposed to supply
    chains that depend on our adversaries, whether it's critical
    minerals with China or whether it's heating oil from Russia or
    uranium from Russia, we cannot be dependent on them. We have
    got the resources here. We need to develop them.
        Senator McCormick. You know, like many energy-producing
    states, Pennsylvania has thousands of orphaned wells that need
    to be plugged. Many states have programs to plug these wells
    that have worked pretty well over many years. I am concerned
    that the federal funding that is available for that is being
    held up for a number of these projects because of red tape. And
    so, as Secretary, will you streamline these requirements so
    states like mine can quickly access the much-needed funding to
    plug these wells?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, this is a--I don't want to say a passion
    project, because I am passionate about a lot of things--but the
    federal legislation which was put in place after the pandemic
    was modeled after something we created in North Dakota, and I
    want to thank Senator Hoeven and Senator Cramer for their work
    on doing that. Pennsylvania, of course, you guys have been
    producing and drilling oil wells since the 1880s. North
    Dakota's first one wasn't until 1951, so ours were all easier
    to track. We have got ours down now in North Dakota to under
    200, and there are other states that have tens of thousands of
    abandoned orphaned wells. And this is something from an
    environmental standpoint that we have got to take care of. The
    technology is there. We can clean it up. And there are ways to
    do that and it can be, you know, great for the local economy,
    great for Reclamation. There is a way to do it. I have got a
    lot of knowledge in this area and you can count on my support
    to make sure that we have got a program to take care of this.
        Senator McCormick. I look forward to working with you on
    that.
        Mr. Burgum. Part of it, you know, the U.S. can be energy
    dominant, but we have to maintain the path which we are on. We
    do it cleaner, safer, and smarter than anybody else in the
    world, and we have to maintain that.
        Senator McCormick. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Senator Cortez Masto.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.
        Governor, good to see you again. Thank you for meeting with
    me. Welcome to your wife, Kathryn. It's a good name. Thank you
    very much.
        We talked a little bit about this, but I want to bring this
    to the public as well because Senator Lee and I do have a lot
    in common when it comes to our public lands, and most of the
    lands in the state of Nevada, about 85 percent, are owned by
    the Federal Government. And he is right, we have to manage not
    only our housing issues, but economic development, unlike some
    of the states--your state, where you own most of the land. And
    so, we are always looking for that partnership with our federal
    partners. And Nevada has a successful track record when it
    comes to bringing different parties together to create that
    balance of releasing public land for that needed development,
    conserving lands, addressing various land management needs. And
    an example of that collaboration is my Southern Nevada lands
    bill. And so, I am hopeful that, based on your comments already
    to my colleagues, that you believe in a balanced land use, and
    that the key to that is local consultation and state
    consultation. I agree. So I am hoping that you will be willing
    to work with us as we address, in Nevada, our housing needs,
    which is an issue, as well as economic development, and work
    with me on my Southern Nevada lands bill and other lands bills
    in the State of Nevada. Would you commit to doing that?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, absolutely, Senator. I know that you,
    other than Alaska, you guys are in the top of the list in terms
    of having the most amount of federal land. You have some of the
    same challenges around affordable housing that Senator Lee is
    seeing in Utah, with the great success of population growth in
    Southern Nevada, and I think, again, there are some creative
    ideas about land exchanges.
        You have thought through it. I can tell. I would look
    forward to working with you.
        Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I appreciate that.
        I also want to touch on a comment that you made that tax
    incentives going toward some forms of energy creates an
    imbalance for baseload. That's what I have heard you say, and
    you made that comment when we were together as well. Let me ask
    you this, because in Nevada, it is important for us to
    absolutely have an opportunity to support public-private
    partnerships in clean energy. I would imagine you support
    public-private partnerships?
        Mr. Burgum. Oh, I think it's great whenever we can get more
    market incentives built into programs, or if we spend a tax
    dollar, if we can match it with two or three from the private
    sector. That is one of the things we did in North Dakota to
    really, you know, both grow our economy and extend the return
    on investment for every taxpayer dollar invested.
        Senator Cortez Masto. And I appreciate that. And so, with
    that said, there is a role for the Federal Government to be a
    part of incentivizing and supporting those public-private
    partnerships. Would you agree with that?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, where appropriate, absolutely.
        Senator Cortez Masto. All right. And in Nevada, because of
    the Inflation Reduction Act, as well as the Bipartisan
    Infrastructure package, we have benefited, not only in Nevada
    with jobs and growing our economy, but in contributing to our
    national security in bringing back manufacturing to this
    country because we have critical mineral mining going on in
    Nevada thanks to those pieces of legislation. We have the
    complete ecosystem for battery--not only manufacturing, but
    storage and recycling as well. And our energy now is both gas
    as well as solar. Solar is really one of the number one areas
    that we have in the state for our energy needs, and that is why
    battery storage is important.
        So let me ask you this, and maybe I am wrong about this,
    but isn't the combination of renewables plus battery storage
    baseload?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, that is certainly the future, and again,
    as I said before, all of the above. We need all forms of
    electricity. We are short of electricity in this country. We
    just have to make sure that we have the balance because if we
    don't have the baseload, the intermittent--and I will call it
    unreliable, because the sun doesn't always shine and the wind
    doesn't always blow. Until we get storage, and storage is still
    a few years out to where we are going to be able to operate it
    at grid scale to be able to make that work--until we get to
    that time, we really have to have two systems. We have to----
        Senator Cortez Masto. I agree, but if we don't have the
    incentives continue that kind of research and making sure that
    is happening, because it's happening in Nevada right now--
    storage.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes.
        Senator Cortez Masto. I have been to the facilities. We see
    it. If we don't have those incentives, then we are never going
    to get there. And so, my concern is, and what I am hearing is,
    under this Administration, a shift from those incentives for
    renewables back to fossil fuels. And that is not going to do
    any of us, really, in this country a benefit to--at the end of
    the day, leaning into clean energy, being dominant in that
    space of clean energy, protecting our national security when it
    comes to that clean energy as well. So I do think there is a
    balanced approach here, but not one at the expense of another.
    And I am hopeful, based on your experience as a governor, and
    what I just heard, and I know about your state because you
    found that balanced approach for energy, and every state is
    going to be different based on their geography, that you are
    going to work with states as well and not take away an
    opportunity where they can have that balanced approach for
    energy.
        Would you be willing to do that, even stand up to the
    Administration, when it somehow is not a benefit, what they are
    trying to do to a state, like the state of Nevada? My
    Republican governor and I are in lock-step when it comes to
    moving forward in this space.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, there are certainly big opportunities in
    Nevada, whether it's solar, geothermal--there are a lot of
    opportunities--critical minerals--lots of things to work on.
    But I would say that the benefit to every American is, if we
    have baseload that's reliable that works, that's part of how we
    have affordability. I mean, every American today is paying more
    for their electricity than they were before. So the current
    policy is hurting every American. It hasn't happened yet, but
    it's coming soon--more and more brownouts and blackouts because
    we aren't going to have the balance on the grid. And I think
    every senator and every governor is going to be hearing from
    every consumer. And so, this is something we have to work on
    together as a priority to make sure that we restore a balance
    to the grid, and that means that we, like you said, when you
    take a look at a FERC queue that has got 95 percent
    intermittent and unreliable, that probably tells us we are a
    little bit out of balance. And we just have to bring it back
    and then keep moving forward.
        But great opportunities to work with you in Nevada. You
    have got some special opportunities and resources. And I would
    say critical minerals, which you mentioned, I am glad you
    brought them up, but you know, in the IRA, we, you know, passed
    all kinds of incentives for electric vehicles at a time when
    China is controlling 85 percent of the critical minerals in the
    world. So I mean, incenting something which increases our
    dependence on a major adversary, because we are in a cold war
    with China, and we are in a cyber war every day with them. I
    mean, right now, we are in a cyber war with them, North Korea,
    Russia, Iran. Every day we are being attacked by these folks.
        Senator Cortez Masto. So you don't support the credits for
    electric vehicles, and that would be something that you would
    support the Administration repealing?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I support economics and markets, and if
    you add up the EV totals, it's over $900 per ton of
    CO2 avoided. And in North Dakota, we can give you a
    liquid fuel with zero carbon in it for 60 bucks. And so, we are
    doing that today with carbon sequestration for biofuels and so
    it's like----
        Senator Cortez Masto. I know my time is up, and I look
    forward to talking to you about this, but thank you, I
    appreciate it.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes.
        The Chairman. Senator Hoeven.
        Senator Hoeven. I think that interchange demonstrates the
    kind of really high-level discussion that Governor Burgum
    brings to these issues. I mean, he really will work through
    these issues, and applies a real analytical approach to problem
    solving. I think that is really important for both sides of the
    aisle. I think that is something that people are going to very
    much appreciate about him.
        Federal law requires that on public lands there be multiple
    use. Recently, the BLM promulgated rules that violate that law,
    very clearly, in my opinion. Do you support multiple use on
    federal lands? And I know you do, but I want you to express it
    for the record, and then I want you to tell us why it's so
    important that we have multiple use on public lands, not just
    in our state, but across this country.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Hoeven. The answer is
    obviously yes, but this is the public lands, and particularly
    when we talk about aspects of BLM, this is essential to local
    economies, and whether that is, you know, grazing rights that
    were a part of this, whether it's recreation opportunities and
    access, whether it's timber, or whether it's oil and gas and
    mineral production that supports local economies and supports
    our country, this land was put away for the benefit, the use,
    and the enjoyment of the American people. Not every acre of
    federal land is a national park or a wilderness area. Some of
    those areas we have to absolutely protect for their precious
    stuff, but the rest of it, this is America's balance sheet, and
    I think every American during a Presidential campaign finds
    out, and gets pounded into their head that we have got $36
    trillion in debt. We have got all this debt. We have all this
    debt. Oh, Americans, you owe part of this national debt--$36
    trillion. This is on you. We never talk about the assets, and
    the assets are the land and minerals.
        This agency, the Department of the Interior, has got close
    to 500 million acres of surface, 700 million acres of
    subsurface, and over two billion acres of offshore--two
    billion. That is the balance sheet of America. And if we were a
    company, they would look at us and say, wow, you are really
    restricting your balance sheet and do you know what those
    assets are worth? We don't. I believe we ought to have a deep
    inventory of all the assets in America. We ought to understand,
    maybe, what are our assets--$100 trillion, $200 trillion? We
    could be in great shape as a country, but then, if you said,
    wow, if we had $200 trillion in assets just sitting there, but
    we restrict access, we don't cut a tree, you know, we don't use
    them for recreation, and then we don't develop the minerals
    sustainably and in a smart way, then we are getting super-low
    return for the American people. It is our responsibility to get
    a return for the American people when we do that.
        When we did that in North Dakota, you started it as
    Governor, and on the Land Board we have got, in our little
    state, we have got a $12 billion endowment for K-12 for about
    125,000 kids. I mean, we had an endowment bigger than most
    universities in the country for our K-12 system because we
    learned how to utilize this stuff. And guess what? We still
    have among the cleanest air, cleanest water, greatest
    recreation in the nation. This is the time of abundance. We can
    do all of it.
        Senator Hoeven. Yeah, and so, it really is about working
    with people in all these different uses. And that is true with
    working in Indian Country on the reservations as well, right?
    Empowering the local tribe, you know, to make those decisions
    about how they use the land and all the beneficial ways that
    they can, right?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, well, in our state, I mean, MHA Nation,
    the Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, the Three Affiliated Tribes, one
    of the great energy tribes in our country. These guys have, I
    say, the hardest job in America. It's not being a governor or a
    senator--the hardest job in America is a tribal chairman
    because you get a whole other layer of federal bureaucracy on
    top of you, and they show up at MHA and they say, hey, you guys
    are doing too much flaring. And then they say, well, we
    wouldn't be if you would give us a permit to actually do a gas
    gathering line. So the same government that tells them that
    they are flaring too much won't give them the permit to do the
    thing that we can do in the rest of the state. So they get
    constrained.
        Senator Hoeven. In addition to serving as Secretary of
    Interior, there is also the role as the leader of the National
    Energy Council--very important. Talk for a minute, for the time
    we have left, and maybe even go over a little bit--the Chairman
    is really a good guy. So talk about how you implement a game
    plan to achieve that goal of energy dominance that President
    Trump wants for this nation.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, again, I think I don't want to get caught
    in making forward-looking statements because the council will
    be formed by an EO, but I think that the intention that you can
    read in President Trump's public statements is very simple. He
    wants to cut red tape. He wants to have more affordable energy
    for us. He wants to sell energy to our friends and allies so
    they don't have to buy it from our adversaries. That is how we
    reduce tensions in the world. And then, we have got to make
    sure that we are doing it in a smart way because he talks all
    the time about clean air and clean water.
        So he basically is talking about the approach that we are
    talking about here at this Committee. This Committee will be
    deeply involved in helping set those policies, but it's an all-
    of-the-above, go get it done and stop getting in the way of
    ourselves, and particularly, with this AI--the AI battle.
    People don't understand that what is coming right now with the
    AI revolution is going to happen during President Trump's term,
    where when we have generalized intelligence that we can
    manufacture, it's going to affect our ability to compete with
    every other power. And China, they permitted more than two coal
    plants a week in the first half of 2023 and they are already
    the world's largest emitter.
        So we are competing against someone who is going to create
    more electricity, produce more AI, and this could be how we
    lose the cold war with them if we don't get enough. We have to
    do it here. And we are a country that believes in reclamation.
    We believe in following labor laws. China--child labor, no
    reclamation, no care about the environment. They are a tough
    competitor right now in terms of their ability to produce
    electricity. So we have got to get going. We have to cut red
    tape. And we have got to realize that if you shut down U.S.
    energy production here, it doesn't help the global environment.
    That's a false trade-off. It doesn't help because somebody else
    produces it someplace else less cleanly than we do.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Senator Cantwell.
        Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Burgum,
    congratulations on your nomination, and I hope to run through a
    couple of questions here. So help me out in your brevity, if
    possible.
        I know you have already--I know the Ranking Member, anyway,
    and maybe even the Chairman, brought up our beautiful outdoor
    economy, which we have heard from your Senator that apparently,
    you are a big outdoorsman yourself. But not only will you
    become steward of over 20 percent of the land in the United
    States, but some of the most beautiful, iconic places in
    America, and these are an economic juggernaut. They are in my
    state, if you think about Mount Rainier or Olympic National
    Park or the Hanford Reach or many other places. The outdoor
    recreation economy generates $1.2 trillion in economic output
    every year--$1.2 trillion--and accounts for five million jobs,
    and I believe, continues to grow at an incredible clip that
    when you think about economic development in some of our more
    rural communities, it doesn't take a lot to add a little bit of
    infrastructure and then the next thing you know, you are off to
    the races as to making a tourism and an economic impact to
    these economies. I think in North Dakota it was your third
    largest industry, generating $1 billion and 14,000 jobs, and
    you actually created an Office of Outdoor Recreation. Good for
    you--good for you.
        So I think you get it. But now when we talk about oil,
    first of all--well, first, I want to make sure on the public
    lands, will you support more input in outdoor recreation
    economies and gateway communities, and will you fully utilize
    the LWCF and support the conservation legacy bills that we have
    passed?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, of course. First of all, in your comments
    on outdoor recreation, I agree completely on the importance of
    this. And it's not only good for the economy, it's also good
    for the health of Americans. I mean, I think one thing that we
    understand is that we just need more people to get off their
    devices, get outdoors, get engaged, understand the importance
    of our land, our wildlife, our soil health, all of the aspects
    of it. And again, you know, we are facing a mental health and
    addiction crisis in our country, and part of the answer is, for
    many people, is that, you know, getting that connection back to
    the outdoors. So I support that completely, and would look
    forward to working with you on your other issues as well.
        Senator Cantwell. Great. So you support the LWCF that we
    passed in continuing to support those funds?
        Mr. Burgum. Some of those acronyms I am less familiar with,
    so I would look forward to learning more about them, but----
        Senator Cantwell. Okay, well, we will get you a question
    for the record.
        Mr. Burgum. Okay.
        Senator Cantwell. Because it's vitally important, we
    believe. We think we broke through finally, and the reason why
    I am asking this is because this is a lead up to the next
    question.
        Mr. Burgum. Okay.
        Senator Cantwell. You are for this very aggressive oil and
    lease strategy, I think, or maybe you are going to take this
    helm over, you know, with a group of people and say we need to
    do more on oil and gas. Part of our efforts have been to show
    that these federal lands are very important in an outdoor
    economy. And so, how many areas that we have already leased for
    oil and gas that aren't being used, why don't we start there?
    Why don't we just start with those, the leases that are already
    there? Why don't we start with that?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I think I wouldn't use the term that I
    was for aggressive, I have never stated that. I am for
    following the law. In the current Administration, in North
    Dakota, for the first time since Harry Truman, the quarterly
    lease sales were not held, as required by law. It didn't happen
    for two years. We ended up having to sue the Federal Government
    just to follow the law. So I think the starting place is for us
    to go back to, you know, following the law on these. And then
    again, we always want to prioritize those areas that have the
    most resource opportunity for America with the least impact on
    lands that are important. And I think that is a pretty simple
    formula to be able to figure that out, given the scale of the
    amount of public lands we have. We can do a lot more without
    touching or even being visible to any of the people that are
    concerned about land use.
        Senator Cantwell. So you would prioritize the existing
    leases?
        Mr. Burgum. I am not sure if I understand the----
        Senator Cantwell. A juxtapose to this conversation, which
    we have had many times in this Committee--oh, let's expand more
    leases, you know, that we don't have right now. I am sure the
    Chairman would probably, we could get into a very long
    discussion here about Bears Ears, particularly. I wasn't for
    expanding oil and gas leasing into Bears Ears. It's a
    beautiful, protected area. I personally think that the outdoor
    economy is a juggernaut. I don't want offshore drilling off the
    coast of Washington. I have got a marine sanctuary. Why in
    God's name--I have Cascadia fault line. I mean, I could have
    devastation to an economy that is paying dividends. Why would I
    want to do that?
        So I am just saying one of the things that would be helpful
    to hear from you is that you believe in prioritizing on federal
    land the leases that are already there as opposed to now going
    and saying, okay, let's get a big map and open up all federal
    land to new leasing, because your point about efficiency--the
    most efficient thing is to go after what you already have.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I am going to have to, before I can make
    an affirmative statement that I agree with you, would have to
    understand, because what I have seen in my time as Governor is
    not that we have existing, but we are actually restricting
    legal access for development or timber or oil and gas or
    whatever on public lands today----
        Senator Cantwell. Okay.
        Mr. Burgum [continuing]. By illegally not holding the lease
    sales that should have been held. So I am not even--I am not--
    --
        Senator Cantwell. Okay, my time is up, and I am now in the
    red. So I am going to get cut off here. But I will submit
    something for you for the record on that. I am sure I will
    submit something on fire and CLT and maybe you and I can have a
    discussion about what I think really would help us move forward
    on some of those issues.
         But I also, just for the record, on tribal sovereignty,
    you believe in tribal sovereignty, you believe in tribal
    consultation, which doesn't mean you just pick up the phone and
    have one conversation. Tribal consultation means you actually--
    when the Federal Government says, hey, so much money needs to
    go to tribes, that you actually figure out the plan for that to
    happen.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, tribal consultation to me as Governor of
    North Dakota has meant actually spending time, going to the
    tribes, listening, sometimes listening for hours to really
    understand what the issues are and then in getting to the
    people ahead of time and then working on things that are
    important. We achieved MOUs on law enforcement. I mean, some of
    the scarcest and most devastating law enforcement in this
    country right now is the lack of BIA agents on federal land. I
    mean, some of the tribal reservations have become harbors for
    criminal organizations because they know that we don't have
    enough resource there and then our local county sheriffs to
    state police, in many cases, didn't have jurisdiction. That is
    just one. Healthcare is another. I mean----
        Senator Cantwell. Yes, thank you. I'm sorry. The Chairman
    is going to cut me off. But thank you so much for that answer.
    I appreciate it. That is kind of stewardship we need with our
    partnership between us and Indian Country. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Thank you.
        We are going to go to Senator Murkowski now. I do want to
    interject here. There is no significant oil in the Bears Ears.
    There is no plan to drill for oil in the Bears Ears. I am not
    aware of any significant oil reserves. Look, there are cattle
    that graze in that area. There are recreation purposes. There
    are some other things that go on there. I don't know who came
    up with this idea that somebody is getting ready to drill in
    the Bears Ears National Monument. It's paranoid fantasy. That's
    not a thing.
        The dispute here is about the process by which it was
    designated--unilateral Presidential action taken without
    consultation, and to the extent there was any input, it was
    negative input, but it affected local people in a way that
    affects their access to recreation, their ability to continue
    to graze their cattle as they have, and other reasons. So let's
    just keep those facts straight.
        Senator Murkowski.
        Senator Cantwell. Happy news to hear that you don't want to
    drill there.
        The Chairman. Well, yes, I mean, there is no oil there, so.
        Senator Murkowski.
        Senator Murkowski. Well, we got oil.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Murkowski. We got oil.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, you do.
        Senator Murkowski. It's good to see you and it's good to
    have these robust conversations. As you and I discussed, part
    of our challenge in Alaska is not lack of resource, whether it
    is oil or gas, coal, whether it's our renewables with
    everything from, yes, wind, the geothermal, even solar, yes,
    tidal power, we have got it all, but our big challenge, as you
    know, is access. And it has been noted that there are several
    states where the Department of the Interior has probably a
    disproportionate impact. It doesn't do my heart any good to
    oftentimes refer to the Secretary of Interior as Alaska's
    landlord. But we pretty much have to go to Interior to ask for
    permission to do anything. And this is regardless of what our
    statehood compact says, regardless of ANILCA, ANCSA, the laws
    that have a direct impact to us.
        So it's good to be able to have a conversation with you as
    the nominee for the Department of the Interior and knowing that
    you have the scope of knowledge and experience that you bring
    to these issues. I love the fact that you are talking about
    America's balance sheet, including assets that we have, such as
    lands and minerals. Part of the challenge that we have in
    Alaska is that oftentimes when we talk about our nation's
    inventory of assets, we are not on the map. We are not included
    in the surveys. And we are told, well, it's going to be hard to
    assess that. Well, yes, but look at it from the business
    perspective. Just because it's hard to assess your assets, you
    think you are going to keep them off of that ledger, off that
    balance sheet? So as we are talking about these, recognize that
    we not only have what we know we have, we probably have three,
    and four, and five, and ten times more. We just need to be able
    to do that assessment. So I am looking forward to that kind of
    engagement with you.
        We have a lot of work to do with the Department of the
    Interior. You and I have had a chance to go over many of these
    issues. But again, so much of it is about access. And the first
    question that I am going to ask--or the first commitment that I
    am going to ask of you--is one that I can guarantee that nobody
    around the panel has mentioned, and this has to do with polar
    bears. The Biden Administration has done a lot of things that
    most Alaskans don't appreciate, and last week we added another
    thing to the list. We learned Interior is not going to finish
    its revised incidental take regulations, these ITRs, for North
    Slope activities. And it's going to leave this very routine
    renewal of current letters of authorization as unfinished
    business.
        Well, when you leave those authorizations as unfinished
    business, it means that the business of what is going on in the
    North Slope is put on pause, put on hold. So I need your
    commitment that you will work with Alaskans, particularly the
    Inupiat people up there, the North Slope Borough up there, on
    basically all things polar bear.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I will be happy to do that, and as you
    know better than anyone, Senator, I think close to half of the
    land and subsurface and offshore that Interior controls is in
    Alaska.
        Senator Murkowski. Yes.
        Mr. Burgum. So you can't--Interior, you may view as a
    landlord, but I would view Alaska as one of the biggest assets
    this country has and one of the biggest responsibilities of
    Interior, and I look forward to working with you.
        Senator Murkowski. That is exactly what I was hoping you
    would say, recognizing the--really, the significance there. And
    I don't want the Department of the Interior to be a landlord. I
    want you to be a partner. I want you to be a partner with us as
    we determine how we achieve the balance that we talk about in
    this Committee, because we are just as proud of our outdoor
    activities. You have had an opportunity, firsthand. I love your
    story about the time that you spent in Alaska. We, of course,
    welcome you back anytime, all the time. But we have been able
    to access our resources, whether it's timber, or whether it's
    oil, and still provide for a place that most would say, this is
    a ``where I want to go before I die'' type of location. So I
    think we are doing something right there.
        I need to alert you, as well as my colleagues, and when we
    talk about abundance, we have it in Alaska, but when you can't
    access it--we are now in a situation in my state, in the South
    Central portion, where pretty much 75 to 80 percent of the
    people actually are living in this region where the energy, the
    natural gas that we have been relying on out of Cook Inlet, is
    dwindling in its supply. We are talking, as we speak, about
    building an import terminal to import liquefied natural gas
    from Canada to keep the lights on and to keep homes warm in
    Alaska, where we have unquantifiable reserves of natural gas.
    We just need to figure out how we are going to be able to
    commercialize this. So we need the help to unleash the
    opportunities that we have, to only allow Alaska to have that
    energy independence that we so rightfully should have, but also
    to be able to help not only our country, but our friends and
    allies.
        And we have had plenty of time to talk about it. My time is
    expired. I am hoping we are going to have another round because
    I don't want to submit questions for the record to you. I want
    the opportunity to just be able to put it out on the record
    now. So, good to be able to welcome you here. You didn't have
    to answer any of that, but I just need you to come back to
    Alaska soon.
        Mr. Burgum. Okay, I look forward to that.
        The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.
        Senator Hickenlooper. You know, I am going to yield to the
    Senior Senator from California because he has got a thing on
    the floor he has got to do.
        The Chairman. Senator Padilla.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Governor, good to see you again. I appreciate the time in
    my office a few weeks back, and greetings to your wife,
    Kathryn. We can't do the jobs that we do without the support
    and love of our spouses.
        My time is limited. Not sure if we will have a second
    round. There are a number of issues that I am going to try to
    get to. If I don't, I will be submitting questions for the
    record. Issues like tribal sovereignty--that has come up
    before, and your thoughts on our trust and treaty obligations
    as a country. Public lands--we have had some recent progress
    and exciting announcements in California that we would like to
    continue to build on and not go backwards on trying to get to
    some water system.
        But let me begin with some of the more urgent questions and
    issues in California. Los Angeles, specifically, as we have all
    seen the devastation of recent fires in Southern California. As
    we speak here today, more than 40,000 acres burned, 12,000
    structures plus destroyed, more than two dozen people who have
    perished--that number is probably going to grow. It has been
    one of the most destructive natural disasters in Los Angeles
    history. As Governor, you had an experience, not at this scale,
    but in 2024, you requested a major disaster declaration to
    assist in the recovery from historic wildfires that ravaged
    across Northwest North Dakota. And President Biden, as I
    understand it, approved it quickly and without conditions. Is
    that correct?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes.
        Senator Padilla. So do you believe federal disaster aid
    should come with or without conditions?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I think each situation would vary. But
    first of all, let me just say that I want to extend, on behalf
    of Kathryn and I, you know, our empathy and sympathy to anybody
    that has lost their home, lost their lives, lost a loved one.
    We have friends that have lived in the area that have lost
    their homes, the homes they raised their kids in for 30 years,
    every piece of memorabilia and memory that they had, gone, only
    getting out with the shirt on their back, in talking to those
    individuals directly. And as it happens, our daughter was in LA
    for an event. The event was canceled. Kathryn had flown out
    there, so both of them also had to evacuate as the fires were
    encroaching in that part of the city. So our family, part of
    our family, saw it firsthand. And again, it's just--urban
    wildfire is something that we, as a country, we need to think,
    and I say each situation is different because where you talked
    about in North Dakota, it was largely rural, largely
    grasslands--very, very different.
        Senator Padilla. And we have experienced both, but please
    extend my offer to support assistance in any way, any of my
    constituents that are friends or relatives of your family.
        For the record, there have never been strings attached to
    disaster relief, and I certainly hope this is not the first
    case. So I would ask, as this plays out in Congress over the
    next several months, if you are fortunate enough to be
    confirmed as Interior Secretary, and you wouldn't be the one
    deciding on whether or not to grant disaster declarations, but
    the Department is significant, particularly when it comes to
    wildfire response. Would you commit to responding to every
    disaster with as much support and resources possible,
    regardless of which state or jurisdiction the disaster is in?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, absolutely, but I would say I would go a
    step further, which is we have got to commit to--and maybe it's
    going to take, you know, apparently the fire in Maui was not
    big enough in a sense--I mean, that was horrible--100-plus
    lives lost, the devastation that is there, but it did not
    create a response nationally or at the federal level or a
    collaboration of states, but with this incredible, you know,
    the largest ever. And when the dollars come up, this could be
    the most expensive wildfire--urban wildfire--in the history of
    the country, probably a time for all of us, together, to say
    what could we be doing differently. And I am excited that Tim
    Sheehy is a new Senator. He is the first that I know of who has
    actually worked as a professional firefighter on wildfire. I
    know that he and others are willing to work across the aisle to
    come up with solutions.
        Senator Padilla. And Senator Sheehy and I are working on
    some proposals on a bipartisan basis to improve the Federal
    Government's ability to help in situations like these.
        Mr. Burgum. And if I could, Senator, I would say we would
    also have to look at, it goes back to actually the grid because
    if you--a wildfire, whether it's in North Dakota or California,
    you need three things: you need oxygen, you need fuel load, and
    you need a spark. And in both cases, in North Dakota and in
    whatever, when you have high winds, those sparks can come from
    above-ground power lines coming in contact with vegetation. And
    so, we have to think about the grid----
        Senator Padilla. I love that you have that appreciation and
    knowledge, and unfortunately, the experience, because red flag
    conditions is something new to people across the country, but
    nothing new for those of us in the very dry West.
        My time is running quickly. I want to get at least one
    other issue in on the record. Last session, I began another
    bipartisan effort, with Senator Daines, to primarily protect
    the pay increases for federal firefighters that Congress had
    previously approved. Side note, there are currently about a
    thousand brave federal firefighters that are part of the
    tremendous response. It's not just locals. It's not just state
    firefighters, but through mutual aid, a number of jurisdictions
    there, including federal firefighters. If confirmed, are you
    committed to supporting wildland firefighters? Because
    recruitment and retention challenges exist for a number of
    reasons, but compensation has certainly been one of them.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, it's a dangerous and very hard job. But
    it's an essential job. And I know, again, from my own recent
    experience, this was just October--the first week of October,
    we lost two lives in North Dakota as part of these raging
    wildfires that were tearing across the prairie. I had a chance
    immediately after that to meet with local volunteers and local
    firefighter units and our small state fire-front team. Our
    national guard was out, including a lot of citizens that jumped
    in as they did in California to try to save their own homes. I
    think we all have got a greater appreciation for that role. I
    think we need to have a better, more sophisticated response
    than we have right now because, again, this is a thing we need
    to recognize that there is rural firefighting and then there is
    urban. And I think the LA example shows us that there are
    things that we have to do differently going forward.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you.
        And just in closing, I will follow up on a number of issues
    with questions for the record, unless we do get a second round.
    But a note, not a question--and a nod to Senator Hickenlooper,
    who allowed me to jump the line here--we are working on
    engagement on the Colorado River, some important negotiations
    that need to stay consensus-driven in the years ahead, and a
    recognition, again, tapping your experience as Governor, that
    we need federal and state agencies working collaboratively to
    tackle resource issues, especially water. In California, we
    have both the Central Valley Project, which is a federal
    system, and the State Water Project, which is the state system,
    that are truly interconnected. And so, I introduce that to you
    and look forward to working with you on the water management
    challenges that we will have to address together going forward,
    particularly given the federal biological opinions that have
    been carefully crafted and need to be maintained.
        Thank you for your time.
        The Chairman. Senator Cassidy.
        Senator Cassidy. Hey, Governor Burgum, thanks for doing the
    job, man, we appreciate it. We both come from oil and gas
    producing states. One of my top priorities has been to use
    federal/state revenue sharing on oil and gas lands to help
    rebuild Louisiana's coastline. During the time of this hearing,
    we will have lost several football fields worth of Louisiana
    coastline, which, of course, makes us more vulnerable to a
    hurricane hitting our coast. And last Congress, I am pleased to
    say, the RISEE Act, which did that, passed by voice vote out of
    this Committee. So I am hoping we do that again.
        Can you briefly speak to the importance of revenue sharing
    to North Dakota, knowing that on federal lands in North Dakota,
    there is revenue that comes back to help mitigate whatever
    negative impact that drilling may have?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, yes, absolutely. And the federal revenue
    goes two ways. I mean, at least we have got it coming back, a
    portion of it, back to the state. But then a portion of it goes
    back to the Federal Treasury, and the Federal Treasury, as we
    know, we have talked earlier about the debt that we have.
    Responsible, sustainable, smart development, whether it's
    onshore or offshore, is of great benefit to conservation--in
    your case, a coastline. But it also can help pay for other
    things. In our state, the revenues that are coming in are
    helping pay for education, healthcare, roads. It touches
    everything----
        Senator Cassidy. If you will, it's kind of a middle class,
    if you will, and lower economic class benefit program because
    those things are touching services directly, aside from the
    jobs being created, directly impacting the quality of their
    life.
        Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and then when done effectively and
    appropriately, it also lowers the burden of sales tax and
    property tax and income tax on those same working individuals.
        Senator Cassidy. It's music to my ears. I will say when I
    speak to the folks that actually do these big developments, one
    fellow said, you know, it used to be when they had a lease
    sale, I could plan a fishing trip with my son at the same time
    because it was so regular. It was going to be on this day, at
    this time, happened to be in New Orleans, so they had a great
    meal. So I wanted to say that now there have been dilatory
    practices that have been instituted, not for the sake of
    anything other than being dilatory and to increase the cost of
    development to hopefully thwart that development. Can I get a
    commitment from you, as much as you can possibly do it, that
    when we have lease sales now, they will be as they are
    scheduled to have lease sales and so that people making these
    decisions will have certainty as to them?
        Mr. Burgum. As someone who is participating in a lawsuit
    suing the Federal Government to try to get them to hold the
    lease sales when they were supposed to be held by law, you can
    count that. As head of Interior, we will be following the law
    when it comes to lease sale time.
        Senator Cassidy. I think the operative statement is you
    will be following the law, and that is a good thing.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes.
        Senator Cassidy. Now, on that, we know that on some federal
    lands from before modern environmental standards, there are
    abandoned oil and gas wells, and those tend to leak methane,
    for example. I am very interested in working on a bipartisan
    basis, bicameral basis, of how we can actually have a federal
    program which sustainably is paying to cap these abandoned oil
    and gas wells. And Louisiana has about 1,500 of them. Any
    thoughts about that, because I am sure in North Dakota that you
    had to address this issue too.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, in North Dakota, we took part of the
    revenues that were coming into the state from the oil and gas
    tax revenues and we created an Abandoned Well Reclamation Fund.
    And that has been replenished, and then that goes back in to do
    that. But we have also made sure that the private sector is
    doing their share.
        Senator Cassidy. Now, let me ask, because one thing I hear
    from the private sector is the issue of liability protection.
    Will they be sued the bejesus out of if something goes bad
    about this remediation of the abandoned oil and gas well? And I
    ask because I don't know the answer to it, we are trying to
    explore that. There are the abandoned mine provisions that we
    are looking at. How did you all manage that in North Dakota?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, we always were looking for incentives to
    make sure that the private sector was willing to participate as
    opposed to being afraid to participate. And you are describing
    this thing where if you get unlimited liability, then they want
    to run the other way and lawyer up and do that as opposed to,
    hey, if you got the appropriate bond levels that are economic,
    they pay those upfront, we exhaust those. If they have got
    other payments that they need to do, we have just been able to
    work collaboratively in a way to make sure the private sector
    is doing their share when we are doing this. And part of their
    share is because we are taking--if they were not investing in
    creating the well, putting in the people, doing the
    development, taking the risk on the front end, we wouldn't have
    the revenue to split up on the back end.
        Senator Cassidy. So we are going to look at what you all
    did in North Dakota as we draft our legislation.
        One more thing, knowing that you will be in charge of this,
    as I gather, this kind of ``how do we do energy'' sort of
    thing. One thing that I have been concerned about is that
    countries like China do not enforce international standards on
    controlling pollution. That lowers their cost of manufacturing
    as much as 20 percent, incentivizing manufacturers to leave our
    country and move there. But then we get the loss of the jobs,
    but also all the air pollution that then blows over to our West
    Coast. I think I read 20 percent of the SOX in
    California is related to emissions from China.
        Now, one thing I have been proposing--Senator Graham is my
    co-sponsor--is a foreign pollution fee that would put a fee on
    certain products from a country like China roughly equal to
    their avoided cost of not complying with environmental
    regulations. Now, as the President speaks about tariffs, this
    would be a tariff that would be thoroughly defensible as we
    address something the economists call externalities. I slept in
    a Holiday Inn last night, I know that word.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Cassidy. So I go through that knowing that you, in
    your position, will be making sure that our industry is
    competitive in terms of controlling our emissions in accordance
    with the law, which then gives us that advantage relative to
    those competitors arbitraging those rules. Any quick comment on
    that, because the Chair is being generous in allowing me a
    little extra time?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I think you are spot-on to recognize
    President Trump, who has a willingness to use tariffs. His
    principle is reciprocity. If you have access to our markets,
    and we don't have access to yours, of if you are using unfair
    practices, if you are dumping in here, in this case, if they
    are not doing reclamation, they are using child labor, they are
    doing all the things that lower their cost, that is exactly the
    kind of place that he has publicly spoken about that he would
    want to have reciprocity with tariffs.
        Senator Cassidy. Thank you very much.
        The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you,
    Governor, for being here, I appreciate this. It's always good
    to have other governors in the room--or former governors, I
    guess.
        At this point, I have got three questions, so I am going to
    be pretty quick in the questions, and I might--I try to be
    unfailingly polite, but if I override you, it's just because I
    want to get to all three questions.
        Obviously, I worked on methane regulations back when I was
    Governor. We were the first state or province anywhere in the
    world to actually regulate methane, but we did it by working
    with the industry. They came and helped create the regulations
    that were going to guide them. Senator Cassidy was just talking
    about abandoned wells. It's all part of that same problem. As
    Secretary of the Interior, how do you think you can use your
    authority to advance rules that boost innovation in the energy
    sector to, you know--let's reduce methane is one thing, but I
    will broaden the question, say, and getting to better, cleaner
    energy that is at the same time reliable and low-cost?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I should say, Mayor/Governor/Senator, I
    love this question because of the focus on innovation. We have
    seen in North Dakota, again, the federal regulation comes in,
    it's proposed. It goes through the rule changing. It takes
    years to finally get it finalized, then it gets finalized, and
    then, all of a sudden, you got a federal employee in a white
    pickup with a clipboard, you know, driving around, that the
    taxpayers are paying for, trying to find out if we have got an
    emission here, emission there. Meanwhile, if that is six to
    eight years from the beginning of a problem to when the rule
    gets finalized and is actually enforced, we have gone through
    like four or five cycles of----
        Senator Hickenlooper. Get to the innovation because----
        Mr. Burgum. We have gone through four of five cycles of
    Moore's Law, and then someone's got a solution to say we can do
    methane capture at the well. We can do it cheaply. We can do
    this. They implement it. They can capture it. They can turn it
    into electricity. They can, you know, do power generation for a
    data center onsite, on a well site. I mean, the amount of
    innovation that is occurring right now in the energy industry
    is unbelievable. And so, it's as exciting as anything in tech
    that's going on.
        And so, that's why I say, ``innovation over regulation.''
    We could solve these problems cheaper, faster, and quicker than
    we can through expensive and outdated regulations.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Yeah, we have never needed more
    innovation in a short time then we need energy right now.
        As the energies are, on the other side, there have been a
    lot of reports about tariffs on critical minerals and possibly
    on everything, from all different--I mean, a lot of people are
    saying a lot of different things. So in terms of imposing
    tariffs without having a clear strategy on how we are going to
    secure the supply chains for these critical minerals that are
    essential to our defense, to our aerospace industry--go down
    the list--what's your plan to collaborate with our allies to
    make sure that we can ensure a reliable supply chain on these
    critical minerals?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I think the key there is allies, because
    we have to have a security network of people that are truly our
    allies, and we have to be able to buy and sell from each other
    around these critical minerals, but right now, we have been,
    over the last 20 years, I mean, we were, as a nation, one of
    the great mining economies in the world 20 years ago. It has
    become a dirty word. You can hardly find a kid in college that
    wants to go into geology or geologic----
        Senator Hickenlooper. You are hurting me.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, you were there. You were----
        Senator Hickenlooper. I am a geologist.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, you are.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I was.
        Mr. Burgum. But you understand, in your profession, how
    that has shifted in your lifetime, and we have to bring it back
    because this is critical to our nation's future. And again,
    when we can do it here with innovation, better, cleaner, and
    safer than anywhere else the world, we are actually helping the
    world environment----
        Senator Hickenlooper. Exactly.
        Mr. Burgum [continuing]. When we do it in the United
    States.
        Senator Hickenlooper. We can set those standards. And I
    agree completely that we are the ones who are going to create a
    better way to extract minerals with less pollution and less
    risk.
        Last question: obviously, public lands are a key part of
    Colorado, just like they are of North Dakota. I commend you. I
    think what you did as Governor, you took a lot of what we did
    and did it better. It is very frustrating, but we governors
    like to give credit where credit is due. We have certain places
    in Colorado, and we discussed this when you were in my office
    last week, and I appreciate you taking the time with all that
    you have got going on to come and spend an hour with us. We
    have some places where local governments, the local community,
    the ranchers, have kind of joined arms side-by-side to protect
    lands. We have one piece of land there that is called the
    Thompson Divide. And it has been somewhat controversial. There
    is one mining or oil company that felt that there was potential
    there. I took a pretty deep look at the seismic, and couldn't
    see much source there, much potential, but it has been
    controversial.
        I wanted to make sure to extend the invitation that you
    come to Colorado, which I am sure everyone up here, even if
    they haven't said it, they look forward to it, but to come walk
    that landscape with some of the local ranchers and farmers
    there so you can get a sense that this isn't a partisan issue,
    this is a piece of land that pretty much everyone in the
    community has a side that needs to be protected.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I appreciate the invitation. I would look
    forward to it, Senator.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Great, thank you.
        I yield the floor.
        The Chairman. Senator Risch.
        Senator Risch. Governor, welcome. I can't tell you how glad
    I am to see another governor for this position, and
    particularly coming from west of the Mississippi. You know, if
    you look at this Committee, it's kind of the former governor's
    club. There are a lot of us on here and we have meetings from
    time to time. Hoeven takes up most of the time trying to
    convince us there is a ``z'' in bison, and we can't find it,
    so.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Risch. In any event, thank you for doing this, and
    because of the fact that most of our western states have so
    much federal land, it's really important we have somebody that
    understands those issues. So thank you for that and thank you
    for the job.
        They have already had a discussion with you about grizzly
    bears. We don't want grizzly bears, they kill people. You know,
    the Federal Government already gave us wolves. We had them all
    killed off about 75 years ago and then some yahoo back here
    decided we needed them again and they brought them in and
    brought us 30 wolves and said when there were 203 breeding
    pairs, we could delist them. Well, by the time I became
    Governor, there were at least 1,500 wolves. Nobody knows how
    many breeding pairs, and we couldn't get them delisted until I
    got back here and we finally were able to put together a
    coalition and got them delisted. Grizzly bears are so far over
    the top because they kill people. They really do kill people.
    And they just don't mesh with society. So in any event, we will
    look forward to working with you on those issues.
        Probably one of the most important decisions you are going
    to make here in the immediate future is--I know how the
    transition team is working, and you and the transition team are
    going to have to pick a BLM Director. And that is really
    important to us because all of us that are western states have
    a tremendous amount of BLM land. We had a real problem with
    this one. Fortunately, she has only got about 95 hours left.
    She was an eco-terrorist. She engaged in the work that was done
    in Idaho of spiking trees. You probably know about spiking
    trees. Since she has been BLM Director, we haven't seen her.
    She has been up here, I think, once in the four years. And it
    divided this Committee deeply. We had a huge fight over it. It
    was a straight party-line vote. She got confirmed. We don't
    want somebody like that running the BLM, particularly somebody
    we can't find. So I urge you to use your best decision-making
    ability when you choose that person.
        On another important issue, the issue for us in Idaho right
    now is the Lava Ridge Wind Project. And my good friend Senator
    King and I have different views on windmills, and bless you for
    taking the windmills. You can have them all. We don't want them
    in Idaho. We hate windmills in Idaho. They are a tremendous
    blight on our viewscape. We really don't like them. And the
    Green New Deal that this Administration has put together is
    trying to saddle us with 100,000 acres--100,000 acres--with 241
    windmills on them that are a little higher than the Space
    Needle. I appreciate you meeting with me and listening to how
    wrong this project is on so many different levels. The good
    news is, and you don't know this yet, I don't think, but that
    project has only got about 95 hours left to be on the table.
    That's going to go by the by, and believe me, in Idaho, this is
    a 99 to 1 percent issue. And we are going to be so glad to see
    it gone. And it will be gone and you are not going to have to
    worry about it anymore after that.
        Let me just close with this. I am so glad to hear that the
    President is going to put you in the position he is on energy.
    That's incredible. We need it. We all know his vision for
    making America independent and actually being an exporter and
    tapping our wealth. One word we haven't used here in that
    regard is nuclear. Idaho is the birthplace of nuclear energy in
    the universe. We have still got the first lightbulbs we lit in
    1951 by generating nuclear energy. We built about 52 reactors
    out there at the site. I don't know if you have been to the
    Idaho National Lab or not, but if you are going to be in the
    energy business, you really need to. There's a tremendous,
    tremendous resurgence of interest in nuclear. You know, the
    thing kind of went by the way after we had the unfortunate
    Three Mile Island incident, but the renaissance in nuclear, not
    just in America, but around the world, is staggering.
        Coming off the drawing boards at INL and in the very near
    future are SMRs--small modular-reactors. It is going to be
    followed by the micro-reactors. That is going to change the
    world as far as energy is concerned. And I am glad to hear you
    talk about baseload because when you are talking about nuclear,
    you are talking about baseload. And I suspect the world, as we
    go through this century, is going to rely heavily on nuclear.
    There is tremendous--and the other hat I wear is Chairman of
    the Foreign Relations Committee. I deal with countries,
    particularly the Eastern European countries--they are entering
    contracts and it is a national security issue because we
    compete with China, with Russia, and to a degree, France, when
    these new projects are coming on board.
        So thank you for what you are doing. God bless you. We
    welcome you.
        The Chairman. Senator Gallego.
        Senator Gallego. Thank you. And Governor, thanks again for
    joining me, and thank you for sitting down in my office, and I
    appreciate our time together. We kind of hit upon this, but one
    of the biggest Interior-related issues is going to be the
    Colorado River. Arizona is at the heart of our national defense
    when it comes to chip making, agriculture, and food security,
    and of course, home to the fifth largest and best city in the
    country. In addition, 22 of the 30 Colorado River Basin tribes
    are in Arizona. So rules governing the reductions of Colorado
    River water expire at the end of 2026. And post-2026 operation
    conversations are still ongoing. The Lower Basin states have
    put forward a proposal for management of the Colorado River
    that shares the risk among all states. However, no agreement
    has been reached, leading to potential conflicts within the
    Basin, which, of course, we would all like to avoid.
        Would you work with Arizona parties and my office so that
    any determination post-2026 isn't overly burdensome to any one
    state and is consistent with the Colorado River Compact?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, you bring up a really important
    issue, and this is with the 2026 date looming, coming forward,
    and of course, as you know, Interior does have some specific
    authorities relative to helping with the Lower and Upper
    Basins. I would say, as a former Chair of the Western
    Governors' Association, I know that this has been a battle that
    has gone on as long as there have been people in the West,
    people fighting over water in the West. My experience in North
    Dakota has been more on the Missouri River Basin, but also, we
    have been in some deep battles with Canada because we have two
    rivers that are in North Dakota that actually flow north into
    Canada--the Souris River and the Red River in the North.
        So whether it's international or the complexities of the
    Missouri, I have some good understanding and good exposure to
    this. But I think you can count on it that we are going to look
    for a collaborative solution that serves everyone. Also, we
    have to look for innovation on ways on the conservation side,
    because we can't make more water, but if we could use what we
    have wisely, that is going to look for the best solutions for
    all. But I appreciate that you are engaged in this. I know how
    important it is to Arizona and its economy.
        Senator Gallego. Thanks, Governor.
        In our meeting we also discussed a lot about our tribal
    communities and tribal nations. I am very glad that you have a
    good background and understanding and relationships with them.
    And we talked a lot about tribal law enforcement, including
    some of the bills that I have put forward to increase tribal
    law enforcement. But unfortunately, we see just high rates of
    missing and murdered women, as well as other violent crimes, a
    lot of this really due to lack of tribal law enforcement and
    communications with our agencies that are supposed to have
    oversight and collaboration. So, you know, I have worked
    through my time in Congress to try to increase the funding for
    tribal law enforcement, but our federal budget cuts really put
    all of that work at risk. So can you tell me, what is your plan
    to work collaboratively with Congress and tribes across the
    country on tribal law enforcement and proven efforts, and how
    do you plan to ensure that we can do this in a bipartisan
    manner?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I think there is nothing partisan about
    enforcing the law and protecting the citizens of the United
    States. And one of the great tragedies in our country is the
    lack of law enforcement on tribal lands and the fact that we
    have organized crime that is, you know, preying on those gaps.
    They are aware that the gaps are there, and whether it's
    training centers--Senator Hoeven has been particularly
    supportive, along with Senator Cramer--we don't have enough
    training centers across the nation for the northern tribes or
    the southern tribes. So we need more recruiting. We need more
    staffing. We need lots of other things that are going on.
        But you mentioned, the first time it has come up, but the
    missing and murdered indigenous women. I mean, this is, again,
    an unseen tragedy in America. I think the FBI list is now at
    over 6,000 unsolved cases. And I, you know, believe, again,
    that we just--it is a complete tragedy. It seems if we, you
    know, we lose a college student at spring break, it's a Netflix
    series and the whole nation knows her name personally. And then
    we have these same individual tragedies that happen over and
    over again in Indian Country, and people aren't even aware that
    is it's going on. So we have got to change our entire approach
    to this.
        Senator Gallego. Thank you again for that, and I look
    forward to working with you on that, and I had a lot of sense
    of history on the House side on this.
        In the last four years, we have learned from Reclamation
    that Glen Canyon Dam has some design flaws that limit its
    ability to pass water at lower elevations, which means we have
    to fix that dam, and pretty soon. We need the ability to
    essentially pass water around the dam if we actually obviously
    cannot go through it, especially if the hydrology in the region
    gets worse. How would you make fixing the dam that delivers
    water to the Grand Canyon and the three million people
    downstream from that in the Lower Basin, and of course Mexico
    as part of our treaty obligations, a priority?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I appreciate your bringing that
    to my attention. This is one issue I was not aware of about--
    the Glen Canyon Dam deficiencies, but obviously, with the
    Bureau of Reclamation being the second largest operator of
    hydroelectric dams in the country behind the Army Corps of
    Engineers, I will quickly be meeting with the team, if I have
    the privilege of being confirmed for this position, about this
    issue because we have to have working facilities on these
    critical rivers.
        And as we know, we have to have more reservoir capability
    because part of the issue we are facing is that perhaps we not
    only need to fix--we have to upgrade some of these so that we
    can have more storage.
        Senator Gallego. Yeah, I would love to work on that,
    personally. Thank you. Thank you, Governor. I yield back.
        The Chairman. Senator Hyde-Smith.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I think
    you guys will be very happy that I am probably the last one.
    This will soon be over. But I just certainly appreciate your
    willingness and your eagerness. I enjoyed the visit we had in
    my office and the sincerity that you have, but most of all,
    your capabilities. You are so capable for this position. And I
    am very thankful to you and your family that you are willing to
    do this.
        I am going to be brief, but one of the things we talked
    about in my office was a local Mississippi thing. William
    Faulker once said, ``To understand the rest of the world, you
    first must understand a place like Mississippi.'' But we are
    very blessed with the National Park Service, that we have
    several sites in Mississippi that certainly contribute to our
    tourism, the economy of our state, and we work with them very
    closely with public-private partnerships. And in Vicksburg,
    now, we are working on a visitor center with the State of
    Mississippi, public-private partnerships, and Friends of
    Vicksburg National Military Park. So we certainly want to make
    sure that continues. In Natchez, the state is enhancing two
    state historical sites to better complement the Natchez
    National Historic Park sites.
        So, of course, I would want to invite you to visit those
    and am asking for your willingness to commit to me on working
    on these two particular projects in Vicksburg and Natchez.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, thank you, and first of all, I
    just want to thank you too for your capabilities. It's great to
    have a Senator who grew up in agriculture and also was Ag
    Commissioner. That is fantastic. I spent most of my life--my
    family was always involved in agriculture my entire life, and
    many of my cousins still are. So it's such an important part of
    our national security as well.
        But in terms of the national park thing, as we said
    earlier, we have a big deferred maintenance issue and we have a
    big opportunity. These are the precious spots out of the
    billions of acres of surface, subsurface, and offshore that we
    own. The national parks, for Americans, are a priority, and we
    need to take care of these sites, whether historic or others.
    And again, we have to make sure that they are capable of
    handling and supporting the visitors that want to see them. We
    know they are great for the local economy. So I appreciate the
    invitation and look forward to working with you.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you on that.
        Now, I am going to go to South Mississippi--our offshore
    oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico. Of course, it
    plays a vital role in the Gulf States' economies as well. We
    call it our blue economy down there. The anchor platform has
    recently come online with the Gulf of Mexico, but it will
    produce 75,000 barrels of oil per day, and this oil is refined
    in Pascagoula, Mississippi, and obviously, the jobs that it
    provides there and the benefits that we have. But it is
    important that the Department maintain a steady leasing
    schedule to ensure companies can continue the opportunities
    there for exploration for new production to support the
    affordable, reliable energy. So the current National Outer
    Continental Shelf Oil and Gas Leasing Plan for the five-year
    plan includes only three possible lease sales, a historic low.
    Do you believe the current five-year plan is adequate to
    continue to meet the energy needs of the nation? And if not,
    will it be a priority for Interior to develop or finalize a new
    five-year plan?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I think that you know the long
    lead times it takes for the private sector to make the
    significant investments to do safe, secure, and smart,
    sophisticated offshore development. It is a really important
    part of our nation's economy and our national security. The
    fact that during the current Administration, the lease sales
    have been so unpredictable and disruptive, and the fact that
    they are projecting forward to have among the fewest we have
    ever had, almost would guarantee that we would see a decline in
    energy production in offshore in the years ahead because of the
    lead times. And knowing that we are in a national security
    battle, and the way that we win, the way that we ensure
    America's future is that we have energy dominance. This isn't
    opposed to the President's direction, I mean, to have, I mean,
    the President would be saying we have to be doing more smart
    development, not less. And as I stated earlier with one of the
    questions, in North Dakota we literally were suing the Federal
    Government because they were not holding the lawfully required
    lease sales. So getting lease sales to be regular, predictable,
    and at a level that allows us to maintain energy production in
    our country is a minimum standard for us.
        Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you for those answers, and I
    cannot tell you how glad we are to have you. Thank you.
        Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Senator Wyden.
        Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and let
    me say, I very much look forward to working with you and
    Senator Heinrich. We have always worked on these issues in a
    bipartisan way, and I look forward to doing it again.
        Mr. Burgum, I think you know from our visit in the office
    how strongly I feel about these clean energy tax credits. I
    wrote this package, $400 billion or so, the biggest investment
    in fighting climate change in American history. It uses
    carrots, not sticks. The more you reduce carbon, the bigger
    your tax savings. It's private-sector driven, and in what I
    consider to be a huge breakthrough, we reward technological
    neutrality. The reason that is so important, as you and I
    talked about, is nobody knows what the big carbon reducers are
    going to be 30 years from now. And so, the reason I insisted on
    that provision is, it creates what I call an innovation lane.
    It's an opportunity to send a message to people about every
    possible type of energy use, that you are going to have a
    chance, if you innovate, to be part of a very bright future.
        Now, I heard something, and I am just counting on you to
    deny it, that maybe you were not as interested in this as I
    thought you were in the office. So, you seemed kind of
    skeptical on some of the earlier discussion, and I just hope,
    because you are going to be very influential in the whole
    Administration on energy, that we can work together on this. I
    believe we will work together on a variety of other issues as
    well. Your thoughts?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I really enjoyed our discussion
    and the extra time we spent together, and as I said then, and
    restate now, that I think your principles are really sound
    about being, you know, technology neutral, about having carrots
    versus sticks, and also about having, you know, private sector
    versus just all government----
        Senator Wyden. I ought to quit while I am ahead.
        Mr. Burgum. Yeah, well, that was all good, I mean, it's all
    good stuff. I think if--I don't know specifically other
    comments you may have heard--but I believe that these things
    may have been so successful as it relates to the electrical
    grid, that there is now a significant imbalance in the amount
    of projects that are intermittent and not persistent, and we
    need to make sure for our country to be successful in the near
    term that we get back to making sure that we have the
    appropriate amount of baseload to manage both of those things,
    because if the sun is not shining, the wind is not blowing, and
    we don't have baseload, then we have brownouts and blackouts
    and we have higher electric prices for every American. So it's
    the balance of trying to achieve that.
        And then, the other point that I may have said today, which
    I would stand by, is that it's great that people thought hey,
    let's put massive incentives around EVs, around electric
    vehicles against fueled cars that have liquid fuels, but in
    America, if there is innovation neutrality, in North Dakota we
    are producing a carbon-negative barrel of oil. We are producing
    carbon-neutral biofuels. I mean, America built 200,000 gas
    stations without a dime of public money or taxpayer incentives
    because the market created that, and we have an opportunity to
    have innovation and an innovation lane around decarbonizing
    liquid fuels. So, we just have to make sure we have the
    balance, because we need it all. We need it all to win the
    competition we are going to win.
        Senator Wyden. Well, first of all, on the electric front, I
    am very much of your view there. I mean, we have had big
    challenges in our part of the world. There's a transmission
    issue. The two pieces that are really left out are how to deal
    with electric and how to promote transmission. I am very
    interested in working with you. I am going to take--as I run
    back to the Finance Committee, where we are talking about these
    issues--the view that you are open to continue working in this
    space rather than coming on in and just saying we are going to
    chuck it in the trash can, because I am always interested in
    improving on something. I mean, the founding fathers said that
    a new Congress is never bound by absolutely everything from a
    past Congress.
        So I am interested in improving it, but I am going to take
    out of our discussion that you are open to working with me and
    others in a bipartisan way. At one point, this was a purely
    bipartisan kind of effort. We can talk about what happened,
    because I thought it was a question of who was going to get the
    credit, but I am going to take out of here that you will work
    with me.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, you can count on it that I will, and you
    can also count on it that I am going to be anchored in two
    things--one is national security, so we shouldn't have
    incentives that enslave us to getting all of our critical
    minerals from a major power competitor, like China. And then
    the other thing you can count on is that I am going to be
    focused on the economy and affordability because if we can do
    something for $60 a ton versus $900 a ton, I am going to choose
    the $60 a ton of avoided CO2.
        Senator Wyden. My time is out, but I am going to say the
    idea of linking a lower carbon future with lower prices and to
    focus on national security is a kind of triangle with three
    sides that I can support, and I would like to work with you on
    it.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Senator Barrasso.
        Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. Governor,
    congratulations, great to be with you again. Thanks for our
    time together.
        As you know, the Federal Government controls hundreds of
    millions of acres of land in the West. I mean, I can look at
    this Committee, in our home states, and the well-being,
    certainly in my home State of Wyoming, depends on strong
    leadership at the Department of the Interior. The Department
    must work with states and local communities to manage our
    resources in a way that works for the people that actually live
    on the land. And over the last four years, that has been a big
    problem, as we have seen an Administration that seems to just
    be punishing the West. The will of the people who depend on the
    land, live on the land, take care of the land, was ignored the
    last four years. So Governor, there is a long list of things
    that I believe must be fixed, and I am going to ask for your
    help.
        Number one, in Rock Springs, Wyoming, the RMP--that stands
    for the Resource Management Plan. As you and I know, and those
    who are watching will know about now, the Bureau of Land
    Management finalized that just last month--December 2024. They
    did it not even a week after the Governor of Wyoming submitted
    his appeal to the proposed plan, but they rushed out the door
    with this. This final plan is going to devastate the people of
    Southwest Wyoming. It's going to lock up millions of acres of
    land that local communities and the entire state rely upon. The
    Governor, our state legislature, the county commissioners, and
    the local communities all strongly oppose what the Federal
    Government is slamming down our throat. So will you commit to
    work with my office and the state to undo this disastrous plan?
        Mr. Burgum. Senator, I am familiar, having been Governor
    until December 15th, because we had a similar experience in
    North Dakota of having plans like this pushed on the State of
    North Dakota. So yes, absolutely, you can count on me working
    with you.
        Senator Barrasso. Great.
        In Wyoming, about two-thirds of our minerals under the land
    are owned by the Federal Government--about half the surface
    land and two-thirds of the minerals under the land. That means
    that energy development in my state depends on cooperation from
    the Department of the Interior. Wyoming's legislative leaders
    would benefit from meeting with you directly as they plan the
    state's energy future, and they ask you to commit to joining
    our Wyoming delegation, as well as the Wyoming stakeholders to
    talk about the future.
        Mr. Burgum. I would enjoy that very much, and I have
    enjoyed the relationship I had with Governor Matt Mead and now
    Governor Mark Gordon, and we have been on regular communication
    because there have been a lot of shared challenges between
    Wyoming and North Dakota.
        Senator Barrasso. And both the current Governor and former
    Governor speak of you with great appreciation, great
    admiration, and great respect. So I look forward to that.
        Buffalo, Wyoming--last year, the outgoing Administration
    finalized a resource management plan for Buffalo--the Buffalo,
    Wyoming field office. This plan would ban new coal leasing in
    the Powder River Basin, which is the most energy-rich area in
    the country. We are America's energy breadbasket in Wyoming.
    This short-sighted decision is an insult to our communities and
    harmful for American energy security. If confirmed, would you
    work with me to reverse this plan?
        Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and I also know that when you talk
    about critical minerals, that Powder River coal includes many
    of the critical minerals that we need for defense, for
    technology, and for the future of this country. And so, rather
    than, you know, this blanket approach of trying to block that
    type of energy development, we need to be thinking about how
    innovation can help us solve multiple problems at once.
        Senator Barrasso. I am going to move now to oil and gas
    leases. The outgoing Administration has a disgraceful record on
    oil and gas management. It blocked and locked our production at
    just about every turn. It hasn't issued leases for a lease sale
    held over four years ago. They still haven't issued the leases,
    and it deferred over 600,000 acres from leasing in Wyoming that
    were previously cleared for oil and gas production. If
    confirmed, will you work to quickly issue those leases and
    offer additional acres for leasing?
        Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and Senator, as I have stated
    before, North Dakota has faced the same--what I view as
    absolutely that there is a case in federal court which I am
    positive the ruling is going to be that the current
    Administration--the Biden Administration--did not follow the
    law relative to holding required lease sales.
        Senator Barrasso. The next area is sage grouse. Wyoming is
    the home to a large population of greater sage grouse and its
    habitat. For over 15 years, Wyoming has been at the forefront
    of adopting new management approaches to protect the species.
    Our state has led successful efforts to balance conservation
    with economic development. Again, the Biden Administration
    proposed to designate over 600,000 acres in Wyoming as ``Areas
    of Critical Environmental Concern.'' That is going to lock up
    thousands of acres in Wyoming, halting production and
    development across the state. Would you be willing to reopen
    the Department's greater sage grouse management?
        Mr. Burgum. I have been advised that the rule of decision
    came out this morning. I don't want to put myself into making a
    forward statement that I would have to recuse, but I would just
    say, for my time as Chairman of Western Governors, I am
    familiar with the use of designations to try to restrict energy
    development, even when you might have a species like the sage
    grouse that is neither on the Endangered or the Threatened
    list.
        Senator Barrasso. I will ask one final question, and you
    have done quite a bit on the grizzly bear already, so let me
    talk about federal grazing. The Department of the Interior is
    critical in its role for management of federal lands across the
    West. Almost half of the land in Wyoming is owned by the
    Federal Government. Land managed under multiple use is required
    by law to be managed without impairment of the productivity of
    the land. These are public places that people from Wyoming
    depend on accessing for their livelihoods, agriculture, all the
    ranching activities, recreation, mineral development. Congress
    directed grazing, timber harvesting, recreation, and energy and
    mineral production to take place on federal lands. Will you
    support the multiple-use mandate the law mandates for federal
    land?
        Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, I do, Senator. And since we talked
    about wildfires today, grazing reduces fuel load. Timber
    management appropriately reduces fuel load. Surface development
    can create roads paid for by the private sector that support
    our firefighters. All of the multiple use is a component of a
    comprehensive re-thinking of how we think about fire management
    on federal lands.
        Senator Barrasso. Yes, thank you, Governor.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        The Chairman. Senator Cotton.
        Senator Cotton. Governor, welcome and congratulations. We
    reached the regrettable point that we often do in the Senate
    where almost everything has been said, but not everyone has
    said it. I will refrain from saying a lot of what has gone
    before me, but I will say, for the record, that I want to
    associate myself with the comments of my Republican colleagues
    about the need for significantly increasing energy production
    while also being responsible stewards of our public lands and
    waters.
        There is, however, one issue I don't think has been
    discussed yet under the Endangered Species Act. And I think
    it's a scandal of the first order. I am surprised it has not
    gotten more attention as of late. On January 3, the New York
    Times published a story about the so-called snail darter. It
    was a species that was designated as endangered by Fish and
    Wildlife back in the 1970s. The entire thrust of the story is
    that a zoologist basically made up this species of snail darter
    all for the point of halting construction of the Tellico Dam on
    the Little Tennessee River. After many years of delay, it
    finally took an act of Congress to build that dam. An academic
    cited in that article said this is a not uncommon practice,
    creating new species, when there is really no difference
    between other extant, non-endangered species for what he called
    the ``downstream conservation implications,'' which is to say,
    activists creating species and calling them endangered to stop
    the construction of a dam or a power generation plant or a
    housing development.
        And again, this is something that was admitted publicly in
    the New York Times by some of these activists. That is why I
    say I think this is a scandal of the first order. Can I get
    your commitment, in light of these admissions, to go back and
    reexamine Endangered Species Act listings and identify any
    other potential false designations?
        Mr. Burgum. Senator Cotton, you raise a very important
    issue, which is the weaponization of federal rules, you know,
    meant to actually protect wildlife, but to do it in a way where
    it's being used, not to protect wildlife, but it's being used
    to stop legal activities, like the multiple-use scenario we
    were just talking about with Senator Barrasso. Again, it's just
    a legal weapon, and it's used for fundraising. It is used for
    groups that are just trying to block our nation's progress. And
    so, I agree with you completely. And you mentioned the New York
    Times. If that article was someplace else, you know, but the
    fact that the New York Times wrote that article, I found also
    to be a remarkable admission of at least one case where there
    was abuse of the Endangered Species Act relative to its
    intended use. So yes, you can count, absolutely----
        Senator Cotton. Thank you. I appreciate that because also I
    think, not in light just of this public admission, but also the
    West Virginia case and the Loper Bright case, there can be
    legal infirmity in a lot of our federal bureaucracy's past
    decisions. So I appreciate your willingness to take a look at
    that once you are on the job.
        Thank you very much.
        The Chairman. That concludes round one. We are going to do
    a quick round two with some follow-ups that a few members have
    asked.
        I want to talk to you briefly about the fact that public
    lands represent a massive public asset, and yet an accurate
    valuation is something that we don't have, and that undermines
    informed decision-making about their use and their management.
    What steps would you take, if confirmed as Secretary, to
    improve the transparency in this area and ensure federal land
    valuations reflect their value to the American people?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, I would just say, this idea that I will
    call America's balance sheet is something that the Trump
    Administration has quite a bit of enthusiasm for in discussions
    with the Treasury nominee, Scott Bessent, Commerce nominee,
    Howard Lutnick, and even Speaker Mike Johnson called me a few
    weeks ago and said hey, what's this American balance sheet
    idea? I mean, I think for our standing in the world for us to,
    you know, talk non-stop about what our liabilities are, we
    should also be fluent, just as any business would be, to be
    able to talk about what our assets are, and the assets of this
    country, I think, outpace anyplace in the world because of the
    care that we have given, in particular, to the public lands--
    the surface, the subsurface, and the offshore. And we have
    proven time and time again that we can do it better, cleaner,
    and safer than anyone else here.
        If I am a timber company, and I own timber land, and it has
    not been harvested, I put that on my balance sheet. If I have
    timber land and I have planted young trees, I put it on my
    balance sheet at a different valuation. When we protect U.S.
    lands and then don't cut a tree and then they burn down, we not
    only produce enormous amounts of emissions and enormous amounts
    of carbon, but we also effectively wasted the public's asset.
    And I think it's part of our duty in the role, if I have the
    privilege of being nominated here, but all of us as elected
    officials, to make sure that we are getting a return on the
    nation's balance sheet for the benefit and the use of the
    American people.
        The Chairman. Great.
        Mr. Burgum. So understanding that number, I think, is key.
    I would just say one last thing--people say, oh, it's going to
    be really hard. It's really hard to develop it. We did this in
    North Dakota. When I took office, they said well, we have no
    way of knowing what our undeveloped minerals are, and we found
    a young software company that was able to figure out precisely
    what the future value of every one of the wells in North Dakota
    on public land would be worth. It has been used for estate
    planning. If grandma dies and she has only got 10 percent of
    one well, they can figure out the value for that. If we can do
    that there, we can figure it out for the whole country.
        And just as I said to Speaker Johnson, we are required, as
    a nation, to conduct a census within every ten years--not every
    ten years, but within ten years, do a census. That is hard work
    but we figure out a way to do it. I would think if Congress
    stood up and said, hey, every agency, every bureau, every
    department of the U.S. Government needs to figure out what
    their asset value is, then we get after it and we come up with
    a number and then we can make these trade-offs. And when you
    take--when you do by executive order and take hundreds of
    millions of offshore subsurface out of leasing, and that is
    viewed as a costless event, at least we could have the trade-
    off and say yes, some people thought it was important to take
    that off of the table, but what did it mean for the American
    people? Did we just take trillions of dollars of future revenue
    out of the pockets of our future generations?
        And so, I think again, creating a financial understanding
    where we could have an honest discussion about some of these
    executive actions that are happening at the end of this term,
    for example, would be useful for all Americans to understand.
        The Chairman. Thank you. I appreciate that.
        I have got another question that I was going to ask
    regarding PILT. In the interest of time, I am going to forgo
    that. I will just give a very brief statement.
        PILT, Payment in Lieu of Taxes, the Federal Government came
    up with it. Congress came up with it about 50 years ago to help
    offset the burden states carry, states with a lot of public
    land because they do not receive any property tax revenue from
    it, so it's supposed to offset that. In some parts of the
    country where there is a lot of public land, this works out
    okay. In other parts, it's pennies on the dollar compared to
    what they would get if they could tax the land even at its
    lowest valuation, its lowest rate. So I would love to talk to
    you about PILT reforms and making PILT, generally, a priority
    because a lot of these communities rely on it for fire, search
    and rescue, schools, safety, and so forth.
        Senator Heinrich.
        Senator Heinrich. Governor, Senator Daines mentioned a very
    specific challenge with the Endangered Species Act, but as a
    governor, you know that one of the best ways to head off those
    conflicts is to prevent species from ever being listed by
    recovering them through proactive, voluntary conservation at
    the state level. Senator Tillis and nine of his Republican
    colleagues and I have a highly bipartisan bill called the
    Recovering America's Wildlife Act that helps states do exactly
    that. And in fact, North Dakota's former game and fish
    director, Terry Steinwand, was one of the architects of that
    legislation. It has strong support from the Association of Fish
    and Wildlife Agencies, from many of the conservation groups
    that you mentioned in your exchange with Senator Justice.
        Does that sound like the kind of approach that you could
    work with Senator Tillis and I on?
        Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, Senator Heinrich. I think, again, a
    super-sound principle there, which is to do the work to keep it
    off of any kind of federal designation, working collaboratively
    with the states. I had the pleasure of working with our game
    and fish commissioner, Terry Steinwand, for six of my eight
    years as Governor.
        Senator Heinrich. Right.
        Mr. Burgum. He had almost a 40-year career in wildlife
    management. It's people like that that I know and respect
    across all the states. I know you have got them in New Mexico.
    I know we have them in Utah. I mean, the people that work in
    game and fish at the state level that are working on these
    things, I just, I haven't met somebody from the federal level
    that flies into North Dakota that cares more about the soil,
    the air, the water, the fish, the wildlife, than the people
    that we have at the state level. And we should just--this
    sounds like you are entrusting this back to the states, and
    that is where it belongs.
        Senator Heinrich. And it was really an idea that grew out
    of asking all of those agencies, like, what's the right way to
    approach this? And they said, well instead of, you know, just
    having an emergency room, which is what the Endangered Species
    Act effectively is, let's try to give wildlife primary care.
    Let's intervene when it's much cheaper and much more effective
    and you can really move the needle.
        You and I talked a little bit about tribal water
    settlements. Those are incredibly important for water certainty
    in the West, especially with all the, you know, all the
    conflicts we have, not just in the Colorado Basin, but also in
    the Rio Grande Basin and other western basins. If you are
    confirmed, will you commit to continuing the Department's work
    to both resolve legal claims around tribal water settlements,
    but also just implement the existing water settlements that
    have already been made?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, you have my commitment to work on those
    important issues.
        Senator Heinrich. Great.
        I am going make one other quick statement. I know you heard
    from my friend and colleague from Idaho, and we have done some
    great work together on cleaning up abandoned mines. We don't
    necessarily agree on wind generation, but I would simply remind
    you that onshore wind is in that basket of multiple use. And
    so, you can always hold it to the same standard as oil and gas,
    but you can't legally, at least, unilaterally deny legally
    permitted wind generation. So with that, thank you for all of
    your answers today.
        The Chairman. Senator King.
        Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        First, I want to associate myself with your comments, Mr.
    Chairman, on determining the asset value of what we own. It's
    astounding that that doesn't exist. And one of the things that
    would contribute to, as we discussed previously, is adequate
    maintenance budgets. If you know the asset value, there are,
    sort of, standard industry percentages that should be applied
    in order to determine a maintenance budget. So I believe that's
    an important step.
        I presume you believe climate change is a problem, is that
    correct?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, I believe that climate change is a global
    phenomenon, for sure.
        Senator King. And I noted the biographical material that in
    2021, as Governor, you set a goal for North Dakota of carbon
    neutrality by 2030, to be achieved in a variety of ways. And as
    you mentioned, you have really worked hard on the carbon
    neutrality of fossil fuel extraction and fossil fuel use. I am
    a little worried today, though. You keep distinguishing between
    intermittent and baseload. Would you agree that renewable
    resources, solar and wind, for example, can be developed if
    they are adequately--if they can be integrated into the grid in
    a safe and reliable way?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, they can, and it's not for me, personally,
    for any political reasons that I distinguish, it's just because
    of physics--the physics of the grid. If we don't have enough
    baseload, and it's the baseload that we have that has allowed
    our nation to make the investments into the intermittent----
        Senator King. I just, I don't want the word--in a former
    life I developed both baseload and intermittent resources--I
    don't want the word baseload to be code for no renewables.
    That's not what you are saying, is it?
        Mr. Burgum. No. We need a balance, but they cannot--the
    intermittent, if you want to call them renewables, is used as a
    positive word, but this is a fact of life, is that they are
    intermittent. And when they are intermittent, until we have
    storage solutions, and we are years away from having
    significant enough cost-effective storage to support that, we
    need to have the baseload or the intermittent doesn't even have
    a life.
        Senator King. But it can be integrated. In your case, in
    North Dakota, 35 percent of your electricity comes from wind
    power. I presume your grid works?
        Mr. Burgum. Well, it's super-stressed, as it is around the
    country. We are in parts of two grids. We are part of MISO
    going east and we are part of SPP going west. And you can have
    days when the rated capacity is 30, but you got a day when the
    wind is blowing, the wind is blowing so hard, it drives all the
    baseload off of production. And then the next day, it's 20
    below and there is no wind blowing and we have got no wind and
    then you got to, like, crank up the baseload again. And so,
    there is----
        Senator King. That's one of the most important reasons
    that--we have talked about innovation--we need to work on
    storage. You would agree, I think, that renewables or
    intermittents, whatever you want to call them, plus storage,
    equals baseload?
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, but right now, at a much higher cost. And
    so, then, of course, we want it to not only be reliable, we
    also want to have it be affordable. And so, that is part of
    what we have to look at as a nation is, what cost are we
    willing to take on to try to achieve those goals. And I believe
    if it's all-of-the-above, if we can decarbonize traditional
    fuels cheaper than we can subsidize some of the renewables,
    then that should be looked at fairly and equitably and
    economically, because that is a better path forward for every
    citizen, if we can do it more affordably.
        Senator King. I wouldn't disagree with that, but we have
    talked a lot about innovation, and I am a great believer in
    American innovation, and the cost, for example, of solar panels
    has gone from, I don't know, $70 a kilowatt, down to 70 cents.
    I mean, battery storage--for example, in Maine there is a
    project underway for an 85-megawatt, 100-hour grid-scale
    storage at a reasonable cost because it's not based on lithium
    ion--it's based on iron. And so, we are moving into a period
    where innovation, I believe, will bring storage down. And of
    course, as you know, wind and solar are the cheapest forms of
    energy today on a levelized basis, understanding that storage
    and backup is part of that calculation. But I hope that you
    will work with the Department of Energy. Mr. Wright was here
    yesterday, and one of his business interests was in geothermal
    and batteries. So I just, when I hear baseload used sometimes
    in these contexts, it sounds like no more renewables. I don't
    think that's a sustainable path for this country, and it's
    certainly not a way of meeting the challenge of climate change,
    which you have acknowledged is a serious one.
        Mr. Burgum. No, it's--we need all forms of electricity and
    we need more of it in the very near term. And so, this is not
    about one versus the other, this is about how do we drive
    forward and increase the amount of electricity we have in the
    country. So I am a both--all of the above--in terms of our
    approach of how we do it, but we have got to do it in a way
    that we have affordability and reliability.
        On the storage side, there is a future, but having been in
    tech for 30 years, batteries get better at about two percent a
    year, and that is what it has been for 30 or 40 years, and
    there is no breakthrough coming. Yes, it's improving, but it is
    not like the microchip, you know, which doubles the power----
        Senator King. It may not be Moore's Law, but I think the
    amount of resources that are going into this research at the
    Department of Energy and in other places, and the development
    of this iron-based, grid-scale storage, there are opportunities
    for significant baseloads. I like your answer where you said we
    need it all, and I appreciate having that on the record.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes.
        Senator King. Thank you very much, Governor, I appreciate
    your being with us.
        Mr. Burgum. Thank you. Thank you, Senator.
        The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.
        Senator Hickenlooper. I ran down the hall to get here. I
    didn't want to miss my chance for a second question, second
    round of questions. And again, thank you for your service as a
    governor, all the way through your career. You have shown a
    real inclination, both through your government service and
    through your philanthropy to engage in the community and to go
    to the community. I think the letters from the tribes and what
    I have heard from our tribes in Colorado, that you are held in
    very, very high esteem, I think, across this country, and I
    think that is going to be a powerful thing.
        I have one curious question. I think they are still doing
    it, where the Western Governors' Association, do they still
    meet with the Secretary of the Interior in December, or have
    they stopped doing that?
        Mr. Burgum. There has been a tradition to meet with the
    Secretary of Interior when they have their annual meeting in
    Washington, DC, which is usually in late January, early
    February. And I would look forward to having the opportunity
    for that invitation, if you know anybody there that could send
    me one.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Well, just, I knew that other
    governors were watching our discussion, so I wanted to make
    sure I got that on there.
        Mr. Burgum. I think your own Governor Polis might be the
    current chair, so maybe----
        Senator King. This governor thing is getting kind of thick,
    isn't it?
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Hickenlooper. Well, it's distilled down pretty
    much--just us left.
        I want to talk a little bit about the Colorado River, and
    it's at least--it's a 25-year drought, a longer-term drought,
    and we are able to go back--this is the geologist in me--but
    there are sediments throughout the Grand Canyon that can be
    correlated, and this appears to be the worst drought in 10,000
    years. I mean, this is a serious drought, and you have 40
    million people that depend on this, and we have been working
    aggressively with the Lower Basin states, and the Upper Basin
    states, and one of the things now is, even before you began
    running for the highest office, the work that you did around
    water in North Dakota, with roughly the largest investments in
    water infrastructure ever, but half of it was for making sure
    you have clean water and then half of it was to make sure you
    are protecting against flood. I thought it was a great model
    for what the Department of the Interior would have.
        And I think you have to look at the Colorado River in that
    sense, too. I think that the Bureau of Reclamation plays a
    significant role there, but I think a strong leader being able
    to find and incentivize those innovations of how do we make
    sure we are saving water and doing more with the water that we
    have, rather than fighting over it? And there is a long
    tradition in the West that ``Whiskey is for drinking--water is
    for fighting,'' as we said last week.
        Anyway, just speak a little bit about that, of how you look
    at working with Colorado River, but there are a whole number of
    river basins that are in drought right now.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, and we have got a tremendous water
    resource in this country when we think about the Great Lakes,
    you think about the Columbia, you think about the Yukon. The
    Mississippi sometimes is flooding when the Colorado is in
    drought. We just, maybe, don't have it in all the right places
    at the right time, and we have got population centers. And so,
    I think, again, with, you know, smart planning, innovation,
    collaboration, when we have been successful in North Dakota
    with public-private partnerships, it has included, you know,
    solutions, again, with great help from Senator Hoeven playing a
    huge role on the federal. I mean, one of the projects we have
    there is a couple billion dollars. It's one-third federal, it's
    one-third local with the local sales tax, I mean, huge buy-in
    locally, and then the state stepping up and participating. And
    when we did that together--this project is going to get done in
    six and a half or seven years as opposed to 20 or 25, or never,
    you know, because we have that experience in North Dakota, too.
    We have water projects at the federal level that were started
    in the 1960s that still haven't fulfilled their full mission.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Right.
        Mr. Burgum. So anyway, I think there is an opportunity to
    work together to come up with solutions.
        Senator Hickenlooper. And that timeliness does magnify what
    can get done.
        The Bureau of Reclamation has done a lot work in Colorado
    and across the West, and I think I am universal that I haven't
    heard a single senator, Republican or Democrat, complain about
    how they have approached this. They have a bunch of projects
    that are mid-way, and I am hopeful that--I know there is a lot
    of talk about a tax cut and a lot of talk about how they are
    going to pay for that tax cut. Hopefully, we can protect those
    funds that have been committed to various water projects,
    because the worst thing you can have, and this has happened to
    Colorado two or three times over the past several decades,
    where you get halfway, you are building something and then all
    of a sudden, the support goes away.
        Mr. Burgum. Yes, agree. I mean, having secure and
    predictable forms of capital for these projects, when you have
    the instability, the uncertainty, then the people that are
    bidding on the projects bid higher. They have to take out more
    risk on their side. They, you know, there are insurance
    companies that are supporting them on the private side saying,
    don't go, don't do this. When we were able to go to the public-
    private partnership and we could create certainty that they
    would have the permits, that lowered the cost dramatically, and
    not only the time to get it done, but it also lowered the cost.
        Senator Hickenlooper. That is music to my ears, and we
    agree completely. So we will remember this conversation three
    years from now, I am sure. Who knows what the future will
    bring, but I appreciate that commitment to the long-term
    solutions, I think, that is necessary on almost every level in
    this country.
        Mr. Burgum. Great, thank you, Senator.
        Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you.
        The Chairman. Senator Hoeven.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        One quick item for the record. As you know, I passed
    legislation to keep horses in the Theodore Roosevelt National
    Park. I am a horse fan. You and your wife are horse fans. I
    just want to know that you will commit for the record to
    continue to work on that very important issue with me.
        Mr. Burgum. Absolutely. And for the record, people should
    know that as popular as Senator Hoeven is in our state, the
    horses in the national park have even more followers on social
    media than he does.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Hoeven. Yeah, no question.
        And then, just one final item. I think you have
    demonstrated to both sides of the aisle your absolute
    willingness to work with everybody to achieve good outcomes and
    a good outcome for this country. And that is exactly what we
    want in somebody that goes into these important positions. And
    so, thank you. Thank you to Kathryn. And then, just if there is
    anything for the record that you want to add to the record, I
    would just give you this opportunity before turning things back
    to the Chairman.
        And again, I want to thank both the Chairman and the
    Ranking Member as well.
        Mr. Burgum. Well, the only thing I would do quickly is
    close with gratitude to Chairman Lee and Ranking Member
    Heinrich. Thank you for your time ahead of time. Thank you for
    making your members available to me for meetings ahead of time.
    And thanks for this great dialogue and discussion today.
        I received a lot of invitations from members to come and
    visit. I would be remiss if I didn't, before I leave, extend an
    invitation on behalf of Senator Hoeven, Senator Cramer, and
    myself to come to the grand opening of the Theodore Roosevelt
    Presidential Library and Museum, which is currently scheduled
    for July 4, 2026. And it's an official USA 250 event, and of
    course, it's going to be an opportunity to tell the story of
    leadership and citizenship and conservation that really began
    during the time when Theodore Roosevelt spent time in North
    Dakota. His wife and his mother tragically died on the same day
    in the same house, on Valentine's Day of 1884. And he had a
    newborn infant daughter that was two days old. He handed that
    off to his sister and he got on the train and he was deeply
    despondent and went West and remade himself from--he had a
    childhood that was full of sickness, and he went from a sickly
    easterner and became a rough-and-tumble westerner, a cowboy,
    learned the hard way out there with a lot of time in the saddle
    and built the Elkhorn Ranch.
        And from then, he developed his thoughts about conservation
    in this country, and we know the story that went from there.
    That, you know, led him to become the Rough Rider that he was,
    that propelled him into becoming a governor, formed the
    National Governors' Association, saved football, I mean, now
    the largest viewed sport, and the NCAA was formed because
    Theodore Roosevelt was listening to concerns from mothers, as
    too many of their sons were dying of head injuries playing
    football in the Ivy League schools, without protections. And
    so, he said, let's come up with some standard safety
    protections.
        So there are many stories about T.R. that haven't been
    told, like that, but the only President to receive a Medal of
    Honor for his time in the military, one of his sons also
    received a Medal of Honor, who was there at Normandy in World
    War II, but an incredible story. And of course, the Nobel Peace
    Prize that he received for negotiating the settlement between
    Russia and Japan. And he wrote more books than all the other
    Presidents combined. He wrote more letters than Jefferson and
    Washington. We are in the process of digitizing all of that.
    This will be first digital presidential library. It will be one
    of the must sustainable buildings built in North America. And
    it's in the heart of the Badlands that he loved, at a gateway
    community that goes into the Theodore Roosevelt National Park.
        And in closing, I would say, you know, someone asked, this
    Fourth of July are you going to have fireworks per tradition
    when you open a presidential library? All living Presidents are
    invited, so we may, if they all show up, we may not need to
    have additional fireworks.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Burgum. But it will be great because there is a lot of
    what we know about Theodore Roosevelt that still lives on
    today, and think about the discussions we are having. The
    Panama Canal wouldn't have happened without him, and how
    important that was for our country during World War II, and how
    important it is for our future going forward.
        And water, of course, in Arizona, some of the original
    water systems in Arizona were dedicated and created by Theodore
    Roosevelt. One of the first wildlife refuges that he made in
    the country was in North Dakota at Stump Lake. He sent us on a
    way to build out the National Park System as we know it right
    now. So it's with a bit of serendipity and a great amount of
    excitement that, as Secretary of Interior, I will look forward
    to being at that opening along with all of you. This Committee
    is all officially invited as of right now. It would be great to
    have you all there.
        And with that, again, thank you, Senators, and especially,
    thank you Senators Hoeven and Cramer, for your support, your
    friendship, and your mentorship for all these years.
        The Chairman. Thank you, Governor.
        It has been a great hearing, and I appreciate the
    participation of all the members of the staff, members of the
    Committee, and especially our Capitol Police force for keeping
    us safe today.
        I am sure that given all the time he spent in North Dakota,
    Theodore Roosevelt learned correctly to pronounce the name of
    the animal that is called the ``Bizon.''
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Burgum. It does have a z, I agree with Senator
    Hoeven.
        The Chairman. It's got a z. It's a z. Well it's not a
    silent z, it's just an invisible one.
        [Laughter.]
        The Chairman. With all that----
        Senator King. Mr. Chairman, do you know what the lady
    buffalo said to her little boy as he was going off to school?
        The Chairman. Oh no, oh no, I don't. What did she say?
        Senator King. ``Bye, son.''
        [Laughter.]
        The Chairman. That's it.
        Senator King. I would also mention that Teddy Roosevelt----
        Senator Hoeven. I love it. I just love it.
        The Chairman. Going to open up a whole new debate----
        Senator King. He coined the term ``malefactors of great
    wealth.'' I will just leave it at that.
        The Chairman. Hoeven is going to be telling that one for
    weeks.
        The record will stand open until 6:00 p.m. today for
    questions for the record.
        We stand adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 1:08 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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