[Senate Hearing 119-50]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 119-50
NOMINATIONS OF WILLIAM BRIGGS TO BE
DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF THE SMALL
BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION AND DR.
CASEY MULLIGAN TO BE CHIEF COUNSEL
FOR ADVOCACY AT THE SMALL
BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MARCH 12, 2025
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and
Entrepreneurship
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60-007 WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
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JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
RAND PAUL, Kentucky JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
TODD YOUNG, Indiana CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
TED BUDD, North Carolina JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
JOHN HUSTED, Ohio
Meredith West, Republican Staff Director
Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
MARCH 12, 2025
WITNESS PREPARED STATEMENTS
Page
Mr. William Briggs of Texas...................................... 8
Dr. Casey Mulligan of Illinois................................... 12
ADDITIONAL LETTERS/STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD
Briggs Support Letters
American Fintech Council..................................... 28
Association of Women's Business Centers...................... 30
Economic and Community Development Institute................. 31
Independent Bankers Association of Texas..................... 32
Independent Community Bankers of America..................... 33
National Association of Government Guaranteed Lenders........ 34
National Restaurant Association.............................. 35
National Small Business Association.......................... 37
Small Business Investor Alliance............................. 39
Small Business Multi-Cloud Coalition......................... 40
Texas Association of Business................................ 42
Texas Venture Alliance....................................... 43
U.S. Black Chambers, Inc..................................... 44
Visiting Angels.............................................. 45
Mulligan Support Letters
DePriest, Darryl............................................. 47
Glover, Jere................................................. 49
International Franchise Association.......................... 50
National Small Business Association.......................... 52
Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council.................. 54
Sullivan, Thomas & Sargeant, Winslow......................... 56
QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Mr. William Briggs of Texas
Responses to questions submitted by Chair Ernst, Ranking
Member Markey, and Senators Cantwell, Shaheen, Rosen, and
Hirono..................................................... 58
Dr. Casey Mulligan of Illinois
Responses to questions submitted by Chair Ernst, Ranking
Member Markey, and Senators Cantwell, Shaheen, and Hirono.. 72
NOMINATION OF WILLIAM BRIGGS TO BE
DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF
THE SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION AND
DR.CASEY MULLIGAN TO BE CHIEF COUNSEL
FOR ADVOCACY AT THE
SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
----------
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 12, 2025
United States Senate,
Committee on Small Business
and Entrepreneurship,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:41 p.m., in
Room 428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst,
Chair of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Ernst [presiding], Hawley, Justice,
Husted, Markey, Cantwell, and Hickenlooper.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST
Chair. I call the Committee on Small Business and
Entrepreneurship to order. The purpose of today's hearing is to
consider two of President Trump's nominees. First, we have Mr.
Bill Briggs to serve as Deputy Administrator of the Small
Business Administration. And our second nominee is Dr. Casey
Mulligan to serve as the Chief Counsel for Advocacy of SBA's
Office of Advocacy. I'd like to welcome you both here today and
thank you very much for your willingness to serve.
Just to give folks a quick run of show, I'm going to make
brief opening statements, then I'll turn to Ranking Member
Markey to do the same. Then I will introduce the nominees and
we'll administer the oath. After the oath, Mr. Briggs, and then
Dr. Mulligan will be recognized for their statements. These
statements will be followed by questions from our Members,
alternating between each side. I now recognize myself for five
minutes for the purposes of an opening statement. Again,
welcome to the Committee and thank you Mr. Briggs and Dr.
Mulligan for your willingness to serve in these roles.
Today, we are considering nominees for two very important
positions. I greatly appreciate the time you've spent meeting
with me and my colleagues prior to this hearing. I want to take
a minute to recognize some of the family and friends who are
supporting you both today. First, and just raise your hand when
I read your name, please.
First, I want to recognize some of Mr. Briggs family, his
parents, Dodie and Bill. Thank you for being here. As well as
his siblings, Susan, Robert, Ted, and his nephew, Braden. Thank
you all for being here. And then for Dr. Mulligan, I would like
to welcome your wife, Julia. Thank you, Julia. And three of
your five children, John, Elizabeth, which is also my
daughter's name, thank you, and Maeve. Hi Maeve. Thank you. We
appreciate you all making the trip here.
I appreciate that you both have fully embraced the
Committee's standard, yet extensive vetting of your experiences
and backgrounds in advance of today's hearing and our upcoming
vote on your nominations. As I've shared with both of you, I
believe substantial reforms must be made to get the SBA back in
shape, and that is going to require strong leadership. I am
thrilled with Administrator Loeffler's actions so far, but she
will need a strong partner, and that is why the deputy
administrator role is so critical.
Traditionally, SBA administers programs and services
falling into three main buckets: counseling, contracting, and
access to capital. Mr. Briggs, previously you worked at SBA
during the critical implementation of the Paycheck Protection
Program. These funds were vital to ensuring Main Street
businesses across America kept their doors open during the
pandemic.
Unfortunately, there has been fraud in SBA's programs,
especially in the Covid Economic Injury Disaster Loan or EIDL
Program, and I want to know how you will continue to work with
me to root out these fraudsters. Small businesses needed help,
and American taxpayers provided it. But it is completely
unacceptable that bad actors took advantage of this emergency
assistance. Even more alarming, the federal government hasn't
held these criminals accountable. But that must change. So, I
look forward to hearing how you will recoup these funds.
As you know, Covid recovery is not the only challenge small
businesses faced over the last five years. In my home state of
Iowa, small businesses are the lifeblood of our rural
communities, and for too long, they've been crushed with red
tape, and burdensome and often unnecessary reporting
requirements with no one caring about how that affects day-to-
day operations.
This brings me to the role of the Chief Counsel for
Advocacy. Dr. Mulligan, I am impressed with your background and
extensive work to ensure economic analysis properly reflects
the cost to small businesses. The cost of regulations for small
businesses is out of control. The last administration
promulgated more than 1,100 final rules costing $1.8 trillion.
The Biden administration's regulatory costs were 600 times
higher than that of the first Trump administration, and 3.7
times higher than that of the Obama administration.
I have been encouraged by President Trump's executive
orders to freeze and roll back regulations. This, to me, shows
a clear understanding of the need to evaluate the effects, both
direct and indirect, that government regulation is having on
America's economic growth. That said, Advocacy's role remains
true, regardless of party, to ensure that a strong Chief
Counsel stands up for the little guy and warns regulators when
small firms will be harmed.
I have introduced the PROVE IT Act, again, this Congress,
which requires agencies to consider both the direct and
indirect costs placed on small businesses when promulgating
regulations. It also creates a process where small entities and
representative organizations can ask Advocacy to formally
review an agency's certification of a rule and prove it is
fully compliant with the law.
I want to ensure that agencies respect and adhere to the
existing laws and give Advocacy further tools to dissuade
federal bureaucrats from making poor decisions that harm small
businesses. This is why Advocacy needs a confirmed Chief
Counsel, and I'm pleased that the President acted swiftly with
this nomination. I want to thank you both for being here, and I
look forward to your testimony.
I now recognize Ranking Member Markey for his opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR MARKEY
Senator Markey. Thank you, Madam Chair, very much.
The Small Business Administration is intended to support
small businesses by providing capital contracts and counseling,
but so far Trump's SBA only produce closures, and cuts, and
chaos. Across the federal government, Elon Musk's army of
unelected bureaucrats is taking a chainsaw to agencies cutting
contracts and breaking promises. About a quarter of all
canceled contracts were to small businesses in our country.
The President's already cut contracts with small businesses
all across our country, many of which were owned by women and
people in minority groups. The Veterans Affairs Administration
also announced $2 billion in contract cancellations, including
some to veteran-owned and service-disabled veteran-owned small
businesses.
Meanwhile, DOGE has barely touched the largest government
contractors who were responsible for more than $200 billion in
federal contract spending last year. $2 billion, they're all
over that. Those are the smaller companies. $200 billion, the
big defense contractors, they can't find any fraud. And we know
there's waste in fraud all over those contracts. Going to be
honest about it.
At SBA, specifically, Musk's minions who have no government
experience and zero small business understanding, they've
already fired 720 employees at the SBA. 20 percent of the
workforce has already been laid off, and this includes those
focused on disaster recovery such as victims in North Carolina
and California. As these small businesses seek to rebuild,
they're laying off the SBA personnel who would be able to hear
them listen to their claims.
DOGE is also closing SBA district offices to cut costs,
including in Springfield, Massachusetts. We had a witness here
from Springfield, Massachusetts just three weeks ago. Well,
they've closed down that office now where that would've been
processed. This will make it harder for local small business
owners to get help from a real-life human being. On top of
this. SBA also announced they would relocate six regional
offices, including the Boston location, over unfounded
immigration issues.
Administrator Loeffler has not provided Congress with any
information about these activities. We don't know who has been
fired. We don't know which offices will remain open. And we
certainly don't know how many small businesses have been left
without services because of the sudden unprecedented slash and
burn tactics.
Today, the committee is meeting to consider the nominations
of Mr. Bill Briggs to be SBA deputy administrator and Dr. Casey
Mulligan to be chief counsel at SBAs Office of Advocacy. Mr.
Briggs served as the acting associate administrator during the
first Trump administration, and worked on the Paycheck
Protection Program in 2020, which provided needed relief to
American small businesses during the pandemic and serves as a
shining example of what Congress can do when we work together.
Traditionally, Mr. Briggs would report to the SBA
administrator and carry out day-to-day operations, but until
this committee gets answers about DOGE operations at SBA, I
believe considering this nominee is premature. Senator Shaheen
requested a briefing on DOGE inside the SBA in this committee
four weeks ago, just so the committee can understand what's
going on.
And I'm disappointed that the Trump administration still
has not complied. We haven't had any DOGE people come in to
brief us. What are they doing inside the SBA? We're the
committee of jurisdiction. We're the committee that created it.
Will DOGE please tell us what they're doing next.
We're considering Dr. Casey Mulligan. Dr. Mulligan has been
nominated to oversee the Office of Advocacy; an independent
agency within SBA charged with advancing the views, concerns,
and interests of small businesses before the federal
government. The beauty of this office is its independence. It
is statutorily required to operate separately, not only from
SBA, but from the White House. That's statutorily. However,
DOGE has already infiltrated the Office of Advocacy and
threatened its independent status.
Separately, I am concerned about Dr. Mulligan's potential
approach to this role. Dr. Mulligan is an economist at the
University of Chicago, a widely respected institution. But
based on his work, I believe his views about regulations lie
far outside the mainstream. He questions policies most
Americans take for granted; a minimum wage, paid sick leave,
reasonable limits on pollution and rules that prevent insurers
from discriminating against people with preexisting conditions.
Without such policies, we would be taken back to a Dickensian
world with no worker, environmental, patient, or consumer
protections.
Regardless of who is President, every entrepreneur should
be able to rely on SBA to help them start and grow their
business. We must return to this principle and be dependable
for the 34 million American small businesses that run our
country. Unfortunately, I do not think that is the goal which
Elon Musk and President Trump have for our country. So, Madam
Chair, I yield back.
Chair. Yeah. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. And as noted
by Senator Markey on February 12th at our hearing, Senator
Shaheen did request an update from DOGE at the SBA, and I have
made that request. The two gentlemen in front of us today,
though, are not part of the SBA yet. We hope to confirm them
very soon, but we have made the request, Senator Markey, and
hopefully we will have a DOGE briefing soon for the Committee
members.
But I would like to now take a minute to introduce both of
our nominees. And first we will start with Mr. William Briggs,
who is the nominee for Deputy Administrator of the SBA.
Originally from New York, Mr. Briggs currently lives in Austin,
Texas, where he acts as the Director of Regulatory and Federal
Advocacy for the Independent Bankers Association of Texas.
Previously, he served as the Acting Associate Administrator
in the SBA's Office of Capital Access and was instrumental in
the rollout of PPP during the first Trump administration. Mr.
Briggs also served as the Director for the Office of Public
Outreach in the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency under
President George W. Bush. Additionally, Mr. Briggs has owned
two small business consulting firms. Mr. Briggs received his
undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan.
And next, we have Dr. Casey Mulligan, who is the nominee
for Chief Counsel for Advocacy. Dr. Mulligan grew up in
Illinois, and is currently a professor at the University of
Chicago, specializing in labor economics, public policy, and
the impacts of regulation on economic behavior.
During the prior Trump administration, he served as Chief
Economist for the White House Council of Economic Advisors,
where he played a key role in important policy discussions. Dr.
Mulligan also owns two small businesses focusing on consulting
and economic research. Dr. Mulligan received his Bachelor of
Arts from Harvard University, and earned his PhD in economics
from the University of Chicago. Again, we thank both nominees'
families and friends for being here today.
Now, Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan, if you would both rise,
please. It is the tradition of our Committee to swear in our
nominees. So, please raise your right hand and answer the
following questions. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Briggs. I do.
Dr. Mulligan. I do.
Chair. Should you be confirmed as Deputy Administrator of
the SBA and Chief Counsel for Advocacy at SBA, are you willing
to appear and testify before any duly constituted Committee of
Congress when requested to do so?
Mr. Briggs. Yes.
Dr. Mulligan. Yes.
Chair. Are you willing to provide such information as is
requested by any such Committee?
Mr. Briggs. Yes.
Dr. Mulligan. Yes.
Chair. Yes. Thank you, both, very much. You may take your
seats. So, very briefly, I'd like to take a moment to explain
our lighting system that is right in front of you. There are
three lights. Green means go, yellow means you're running out
of time, and red means to go ahead and wrap up your remarks.
And I ask unanimous consent that the nominees' full statements
be included in the record. Without objection, so ordered.
As your written testimony has been made part of the record,
the Committee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five
minutes. Mr. Briggs, you are now recognized for five minutes
for your testimony.
TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM BRIGGS OF TEXAS
Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Chair, and thank you Ranking Member
Markey, and distinguished members of the Committee. My name is
Bill Briggs, and it is a great honor to appear before you today
as President Trump's nominee for Deputy Administrator of the
Small Business Administration.
I'm grateful the President Trump for offering me the
opportunity to again serve America's 34 million small
businesses, which are the backbone of our economy, the
lifeblood of our communities, and the engine of innovation
prosperity. As goes small business in this country, so goes our
nation. I'd like to briefly acknowledge my friends and family
are here today, including my parents, Bill and Dodie.
I would also like to thank Administrator Loeffler for her
support. There's no stronger advocate for American small
businesses, and already SBA is seeing a restoration under her
leadership. Finally, I want to thank God for everything,
especially the challenges which make me rely on Him.
During President Trump's first term, our nation's economy
was the envy of the world. Job creators and job seekers alike
were empowered, driving small business formation in a blue-
collar boom through historic tax cuts, fair trade deals, and
deregulation. His agenda had created 7 million new jobs,
delivered his historically low poverty and record employment
for minority communities. Indeed, small business optimism has
surged since the November election because America's
entrepreneurs know help is on the way.
If confirmed, this will be my third time as a Presidential
appointee, and Administrator Loeffler will be the fourth
cabinet-level administrator that I will have had the
opportunity to serve. During my prior service at SBA, I oversaw
the day-to-day operations of the Paycheck Protection Program,
which helped to save 11 million small business jobs. I hope to
leverage a wealth of institutional knowledge and lessons that
will enable me to hit the ground running, if confirmed.
I bring to the role over two decades of public service and
private sector experience. My first job out of college was in
state government, working on veterans' affairs and local
economic development issues. From there, I've served in senior
roles at industry, trade associations interspersed with two
Presidential appointments.
During the last Trump administration, I served as the
Acting Associate Administrator in the Office of Capital Access,
where I oversaw all SBA lending programs. I also served as an
advisor to the Administrator on engaging small businesses
during this crucial time in the agency's history. Finally, I
led internal agency reform efforts, including the SBA field
alignment and rebranding initiatives launched under then
Administrator, Linda McMahon.
Like many Americans, my belief in the power of small
business is personal. My family is steeped in service to our
country as much as the spirit of entrepreneurship. Both of my
grandfathers served in World War II, and my mother, who's here
today, was an Army nurse. And two of my brothers served
overseas in our armed forces. Two of my sisters currently run a
small business today, and I have owned and operated two small
businesses myself.
My sister Katie owns a small landscape design company and
often shares how excessive regulations, including extensive
environmental permits, take up her time, drive up her equipment
costs, and hamper her ability to serve her clients. She's
forced to either cut back on employees, reduce her services, or
cut into her own bottom line. Her story is the story of
millions of small businesses who have been put under the
enormous strain over the last four years with excessive
regulation, crushing inflation, and big government bureaucracy.
Our private sector hiring, though beginning to recover
under President Trump, has declined for over a year. And if we
are to bring back jobs and ensure that the economy continues to
grow, we must first unshackle and support free enterprise. One
of the ways to do that is to ensure that SBA is effectively
serving small business by cutting regulation, eliminating fraud
and waste, streamlining and modernizing services, and
refocusing the agency on its core missions of helping
entrepreneurs thrive.
With the America First agenda, we are poised to unlock a
new era of growth and opportunity for the risk-takers, job
creators, and innovators who power this nation's economy. If
confirmed, I look forward to supporting President Trump and
Administrator Loeffler to ensure SBA programs deliver results,
real results, for Main Street and all of America.
Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, and members of the
Committee, thank you for your dedication to U.S. small
businesses. I welcome your questions, and would be honored to
earn your support to serve as the next Deputy Administrator of
the Small Business Administration.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Briggs follows.]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair. Thank you, Mr. Briggs. And Dr. Mulligan, you are now
recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
TESTIMONY OF DR. CASEY MULLIGAN OF ILLINOIS
Dr. Mulligan. Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey,
distinguished members of the Committee. Thank you for the
opportunity to appear before you today. My wife, Julia, and
three of our children, have joined us to witness part of the
system of checks and balances. I appreciate their support and
sacrifices, as Dad served and hopes to serve again.
I'm grateful and honored by President Trump's nomination
for the Chief Counsel position of the Office of Advocacy at the
SBA and to join the President's team committed to replacing
government overreach with common-sense leadership.
I have always lived in Illinois, with the exception of five
years living in the Ranking Member's state, and one year here
in Washington. After I was about three years old, my parents'
sole source of income was the small software business that my
father founded and managed with a partner. My uncle also worked
most of his career at that business. My mother and I worked
there at times.
In my current capacity as the owner of small businesses, I
am too familiar with uncompromising regulators. Agencies can
shutter businesses or short of that, cause them to throw up
their hands in exasperation and sell out to a big corporation.
I file at least 10 payroll tax forms every year. It seems
like as soon as one is mailed out, the IRS is asking for
another with a check attached, of course. I got one of my
biggest accounting bills ever a few months ago to comply with
Treasury's beneficial ownership interest requirements.
Considering the relief that President Trump just delivered on
that, maybe it wasn't necessary, but at the time, the Treasury
was threatening all of us small businesses with monetary and
criminal penalties.
Much of my career has challenged regulatory overreach and
uncovered unnecessarily onerous rules. One of my early projects
was commissioned by family farmers in central Illinois. They
needed to look at the economic effects of eminent domain
because the state was using that authority for private
purposes. I testified about that at the Illinois Commerce
Commission.
My late father-in-law started an oyster farm, now run by
our nephew. Uncompromising regulators loom even larger there,
always shifting attention away from the shellfish and toward
the customers by hiring lawyers and experts. Once, the farm had
to prove that the regulators don't know how to measure
nitrogen. Another time, it was to refute the government's false
claim that the land under the water is not our land.
I strongly support Congress's approach of creating an
independent Office of Advocacy and other elements of Regulatory
Flexibility Act to ensure that concerns of and costs imposed on
small businesses receive meaningful weight in regulatory
decisions.
While the RFA exists on paper, too often small businesses
are getting ambushed. Too many rules are imposed without
engaging or even notifying them. The RFA has rules for
regulators to follow, but often, their attitude is ``Rules for
thee, but not for me''.
President Trump does not tolerate two-tiered systems. The
law requires keeping businesses in the loop. It requires
reviewing the old rules for their effect on small businesses.
Agency compliance with the RFA does not necessarily need many
resources, particularly when there is an advocacy office.
They're ready to help, supported by Congress and the White
House.
By ensuring that the Chief Counsel position is filled for
the first time in many years, the members of this Committee can
fully restore small business advocacy and RFA watchdog
functions that it created in its statutes and small businesses
deserve.
Small businesses also need regulatory solutions that last
beyond a single presidential cycle. They appreciate that the
115th Congress and President Trump used the Congressional
Review Act a record number of times, and this Congress has
gotten off to an even faster start.
If confirmed, I look forward to working with this Committee
and anyone else in Congress developing legislation to help
agencies achieve their missions at less costs to small
businesses. I also pledge to keep you apprised of the concerns
expressed during the regional outreach process.
I thank the Committee for its consideration. I welcome your
questions, and would be honored to earn your support to serve
as the next Chief Counsel of the Office of Advocacy at the SBA.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Mulligan follows.]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair. Wonderful. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan, and Mr. Briggs,
for your testimony.
Before we move to questions, the Committee has received
several letters of support for Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan's
nominations. And I ask for unanimous consent to enter into the
record letters of support.
For Mr. Briggs, letters of support from: The National
Restaurant Association, Independent Community Bankers of
America, National Small Business Association, National
Association of Government-Guaranteed Lenders, International
Franchise Association, Texas Association of Business,
Independent Bankers Association of Texas, Texas Venture
Alliance, Economic and Community Development Institute, The
Association of Women's Business Centers, Visiting Angels, Small
Business Multi-Cloud Coalition, and U.S. Black Chambers.
For Dr. Mulligan, letters from: The National Small Business
Association, Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council,
International Franchise Association, a joint letter from Tom
Sullivan, SBA's Chief Counsel for Advocacy from 2002 to 2008
and Winslow Sargeant, SBA's Chief Counsel for Advocacy from
2010 to 2015, and a letter from Darryl DePriest, SBA's Chief
Counsel for Advocacy from 2015 to 2017.
Without objection, so ordered.
Chair. I will now recognize myself for five minutes of
questions. So, we'll start with you, Mr. Briggs. During your
service in the previous Trump administration, you had direct
insight into the Covid EIDL and PPP. As you know, both programs
have suffered from a lack of transparency and experienced over
$200 billion in fraud. These same problems plague many of SBA's
loan programs as I highlighted during last month's hearing on
the 7(a) loan program. If confirmed, do you commit to providing
the Committee with comprehensive and current information on how
SBA's loan programs are performing?
Mr. Briggs. Chair Ernst, thank you for that question. I'm
tremendously proud of my service, particularly with the
Paycheck Protection Program and the EIDL program. I believe
they did an incredible job of helping to preserve American
small business jobs at the worst economic crisis since the
Great Depression.
However, as you have noted, there is way too much fraud in
these programs or was too much fraud. And part of that,
particularly with PPP, some of that was statutory-mandated
guardrails that had to be let down by law. But when I was
Acting Associate Administrator, we implemented upfront checks
that reduced a lot of that fraud.
Since that time, I understand that there have been more
upfront checks and identity verification procedures introduced.
However, should I be confirmed, I will continue to focus on
cracking down on fraud in the current programs and have a zero-
tolerance approach to fraud going forward.
Chair. Very good. I appreciate that because I am worried
that the 7(a) loan program could require an appropriation if
those defaults are too high without enough fee revenue to
offset the losses that we have experienced. Will you commit to
reviewing the loan portfolios and make necessary policy changes
to avoid taxpayers footing the bill wherever that may lead,
including tightening up eligibility?
Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Chair Ernst. Yes. The 7(a) program
right now is cashflow for the negative for the first time in 12
years. It was noted in the hearing three weeks ago. It's a
serious problem and one that ultimately ends up hurting access
to credit for all small businesses. I'll work with
Administrator Loeffler, the Associate Administrator of Capital
Access, and all of the relevant SBA staff to make sure that
we're doing everything we can to put that program back to its
historical position of being having a neutral subsidy where the
taxpayers aren't taxed to run the program.
Chair. Very good. No, thank you. And what, in your
experience, were the pitfalls of SBA's Covid programs.
Mr. Briggs. Chair, the I've spent the last four years
thinking about lessons learned from that experience. It was an
unprecedented time, as every member of this Committee knows.
And as Ranking Member Markey did know, we did come together to
work on this at a perilous time in our nation's history.
I would say the first thing is not to shut down the entire
economy and then hope that something like SBA can solve the
problem. I think that if that situation will ever happen again,
hopefully we do have more forethought. I also think that
something, again, like upfront identity checks and
verification. And also, being much more clear about eligibility
guidelines going forward are all things we really need to do in
both our capital access and disaster loan programs.
Chair. Right. Very good. I appreciate that. And we'll go to
Dr. Mulligan next. And as I've noted Dr. Mulligan, under the
prior administration, small businesses across the country were
burdened with a $1.8 trillion regulatory onslaught, and over
350 million hours of paperwork.
While the Regulatory Flexibility Act requires agencies to
consider how their regulations impact small businesses and look
to evaluate less burdensome alternatives, agencies have not
followed the law. So, I did re-introduce the PROVE IT Act to
require that agencies evaluate the true cost of regulations and
to empower Advocacy's role to make an agency prove the
regulation is necessary, and mitigate against cost and
compliance burdens for small businesses.
Do you support increasing transparency and accuracy in the
cost to benefit analysis aspect of SBA's rulemaking process?
Dr. Mulligan. Absolutely.
Chair. Easy. Do you agree agencies have failed to properly
consider the indirect costs of their regulations?
Dr. Mulligan. Almost all of them that I've looked at have
been pretty weak on considering those costs.
Chair. If confirmed as the Chief Counsel for Advocacy, will
you commit to properly evaluating agency rulemaking for both
its direct and indirect impact on small businesses?
Dr. Mulligan. I commit to do that.
Chair. Thank you. And you supportive of the PROVE IT Act?
Dr. Mulligan. Yes, I support the PROVE IT Act.
Chair. And right on time. My time is expired. Ranking
Member Markey.
Senator Markey. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Dr. Mulligan, the Office of Advocacy sits within the SBA,
but the chief counsel is statutorily independent from the SBA
administrator. And your work is by statute not permitted to be
submitted to the Office of Management and Budget, or to any
other federal agency, or any executive office. That includes,
again, OMB. You can't share information with OMB. You expressed
to my staff that you take that independence seriously.
However, we know that Elon Musk's minions have already had
conversations with leadership at the Office of Advocacy. Can
you commit to the committee that you will refuse to take
instruction from DOGE or from the administration so that you
are in compliance with the statutory mandate?
Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question, Senator. I
support President Trump's goal of making government more
efficient. He wanted a mandate in the election to do exactly
that. If you look----
Senator Markey. But he did not win a mandate to violate
statutes. He said he was going to follow the law. So, the law
says that you cannot share information. Are you going to abide
by that law?
Dr. Mulligan. If you look at Advocacy's charter statute and
how it's changed over time, it's clear that, number one,
Advocacy has a special hiring authority, as you said. And
number two, as you said, the authority lies with the Chief
Counsel.
Senator Markey. So, again, I'm going to read you the
statute again. Your work is by statute not permitted to be
submitted, ``to the Office of Management and Budget, or to any
other federal agency, or any executive office.'' Do you agree
to abide by that law? Will you abide by that law?
Dr. Mulligan. Yeah. And all the statutes related to the
office. I will abide by the----
Senator Markey. So, you will not share that information
with any other agency? Is that what you're saying?
Dr. Mulligan. That's correct. The reports are supposed,
according to statute, and would be my practice, submitted to
the Congress and to the President.
Senator Markey. Okay. What do you believe is your role in
ensuring that congressional mandates are followed regardless of
executive directives? Do congressional mandates take primacy if
they're there as the abiding law?
Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I'm not sure I
understand the question. Are you referring to Executive Orders?
Senator Markey. The question is, do you believe that
statutes that have been put on the books by House and Senate
votes and signed by Presidents take precedence over executive
directives?
Dr. Mulligan. I'm confused by the question because I even--
I served in the first Trump administration, and I've followed
the second one and there are lots of Executive Orders. Every
single one I've looked at, the primary instruction in those
Executive Orders is for the people reading it to follow the
laws of the United States.
Senator Markey. Right. So, you are saying that if there is
a statute, that you will abide by that statute and not allow
for an executive order?
Dr. Mulligan. Yes, I would do that. And I would expect, as
President Trump has done almost 300 times in the past, to tell
me to follow the laws of the United States.
Senator Markey. All right. Well so you do believe statutes
then are at a higher order than executive orders in terms of
what you must obey?
Dr. Mulligan. I'm confused because the Executive Orders
themselves say to follow the laws of the United States. So, I
don't see the conflict.
Senator Markey. All right. Well, sometimes, Presidents when
they're making executive orders believe that they're the law,
even though there's a statute which is very clear as to what
the law is. So, that's the point that I'm making to you. And I
will be holding you to that standard.
Will you use loyalty tests, Mr. Mulligan, or any other
criteria unrelated to an employee's work product when making
hiring or firing decisions?
Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. The Advocacy
Officers were created, and if I were confirmed would be my goal
as well, to be an independent voice for small business in
Washington. So, the hiring decisions, procurement decisions,
all the decisions will be around how can we better be an
independent voice for small business with the agencies here in
Washington.
Senator Markey. Okay. And have you met with the team at
Advocacy yet?
Dr. Mulligan. I have not been in the building. They have
a--I think we call it a Sherpa, who's helped me find my way to
your office and the different Senator's offices for the
meetings. But I have not met the staff yet.
Senator Markey. We've heard stories of specific industries
meeting at Mar-a-Lago and getting special treatment from the
administration. Do you agree that that creates market
distortions when special treatment is handed out and it's not
an even-handed application of the law?
Dr. Mulligan. I'm a little confused by the question. I
haven't been to Mar-a-Lago. I'm not sure what businesses are
going there, what conversations are had. I'd be glad to look in
detail at what you're referring to. But in the abstract, I
don't really understand the question.
Senator Markey. Well, it's very clear that if someone
visits Mar-a-Lago, and then the President says give special
treatment to one particular company, that would obviously begin
to create a market distortion because it would not be an equal
application of the law that the SBA is supposed to be
discharging.
Dr. Mulligan. I'm also confused by that. I apologize. I'm
confused by that question, too, because you gave legal terms in
there and then economic terms like market distortion. I'm not
quite sure the connection. I'm not a lawyer. I do understand
the idea of market distortions. I've read many, many articles
about market distortions. I'm not quite how sure how they apply
in the situation you're describing.
Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Senator Husted [presiding]. Thank you, Ranking Member
Markey. So, I'm going to recognize myself now as the acting
Chair on behalf of Chair Ernst for five minutes to ask a few
questions.
I want to start with this, you know, the Small Business
Administration. I'll start with you, Mr. Briggs. And by the
way, I hold no grudge to the fact that you're a Michigan grad
as a Senator from Ohio. I remember asking a college president
one time about this university that he was running, and I said
can you tell me what the three things that you're really good
at? And he told me five things at the university, maybe six
things that the university was really good at. And I said,
well, what are some of the things that you're maybe not really
good at that maybe you shouldn't be doing anymore? And he
couldn't come up with a one, right?
Well, we do everything really well. Well, nobody, no
institution is great at everything. And there's some things
that they've discovered over time that they have great value
in. And then there are things that maybe they say, well, you
know, maybe we ought not do that anymore. Maybe there's
something better that we could do with those resources.
So, based on your experience and your knowledge of the
agency, reflecting on the nature of that question, what is it
that the SBA does that's great, and what might we rethink,
prioritizing resources around that we could do better?
Mr. Briggs. Senator, thank you for your question. And I do
accept that Ohio State won the National Football Championship.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Briggs. Here's what SBA does well, and what the focus,
if I'm confirmed, is going to be; doing its core mission well,
what I call the three C's and D. Access to capital,
contracting, and counseling small businesses to grow. The other
important feature of that is the disaster function. And we've
been there as we were five years ago during the Covid pandemic,
but to make sure we're also there now when disaster strikes
across the country. Those are things that the agency can and
should do well and will be the focus, should I be the Deputy
Administrator.
The things the agency does not do well are things like
direct lending, voter registration efforts, and picking winners
and losers. That should not be the focus of the agency when it
comes to its programs and policies, but rather ensuring that
all of those four core missions that I described are available
and accessible to all Americans.
Senator Husted. So, on the final point of the things that
it doesn't do well, is it required to do that in statute
anywhere?
Mr. Briggs. Senator, I actually have been reading the Small
Business Act at night because I haven't been able to sleep in
advance of this hearing. I can't find that. I do think there
are programs in the government contracting area that work with
socially disadvantaged, but that's a separate thing from what
we historically are now referred to as DEI programs. I'm not
aware of that.
Senator Husted. So, I would assume then with the
Administrator's support that you will no longer be doing those
things that the agency in the past has been doing, but has no
statutory responsibility to accomplish.
Mr. Briggs. Senator, if I'm confirmed, I will follow the
law and focus on the core agency missions of access to capital,
contracting, counseling, and disaster response.
Senator Husted. Okay, great. Mr. Mulligan, do you have
thoughts on any of those questions?
Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. The Advocacy
office is a fairly small office. About 50 people. Has a fairly
tight range of responsibilities that Congress has signed to it.
And as far as I can tell, they've been executing those
responsibilities and not going outside those boundaries.
Mr. Briggs. Great.
Senator Husted. Thank you. Mr. Briggs, just another
thought. Part of my previous responsibilities before becoming a
U.S. Senator, I was very involved in economic development and
supporting entrepreneurs through venture funds, and securing
IP, and things like that for entrepreneurial ventures.
I've rarely bumped into an entrepreneur who's told me that
they need the government involvement in much of what they do.
They normally talk about the things that government does that
are in conflict with what entrepreneurs want to do.
And so, in your experience with small businesses and
entrepreneurs, what are the things that they most note about
the fact? Because you're a government agency designed to help
businesses, yet most businesses will complain about government
standing its way. What are some of the things that you've
encountered that businesses most commonly tell you,
particularly small businesses, that are problematic for them?
Mr. Briggs. Senator, over the last four years, I've worked
and counseled everything from venture-backed startups to what
we would call mom-and-pop shops. And almost across the board,
they're not aware of the breadth and depth of regulations that
they have to follow, that they had no idea about.
And especially with venture backed businesses, particularly
in the financial technology arena, the amount of regulation
just to get to a minimum viable product is unprecedented. And
they just don't even understand sometimes what to do regardless
of the great resources that SBA can provide, including
counseling or access to capital.
Senator Husted. So, one of the things I think this
committee would find of value is that as you are out there with
counselors and capital and talking with small businesses, if
you could compile a list for us of the kinds of common concerns
that businesses are identifying that they could use relief.
That actually, we don't need government money, we don't need
government help, we need government relief, relief from those
regulations, relief from the things that get in their way. And
I think one of the things would be very valuable, at least I
would think it would be of value to me, is for SBA to identify
those things that are commonly discussed by the businesses that
you're trying to help as impediments to their success.
So, instead of all the things that government can do for
people, how about the things that government can stop doing to
them that stand in the way of their success? And would you.
Would you commit to working to accomplish that?
Mr. Briggs. Senator, I will commit to working with that,
particularly with SBA's Office of the Ombudsman.
Senator Husted. Great. Thank you. Now I would like to
recognize Senator Cantwell for five minutes.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so
much. Welcome to the nominees for your positions. And I know
that you probably have given a statement that I haven't been
able to read yet, so we'll look at that.
But I wanted to ask you about this pressing issue on
tariffs. First, Dr. Mulligan, do you think that the President's
tariff first approach is helpful to small business? Can you
describe the impact of tariffs on Mexico and Canada, two of our
largest trading partners, what you think that would have on
small businesses?
Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. It is good to
see you again. Trade policy absolutely must consider the
concerns of small businesses, and Congress created an
independent office to advocate for them. President Trump, more
than any President in U.S. history, has prioritized getting
that Chief Counsel position filled. If it goes unfilled too
long, we could be in a position where it's mainly the big
companies that are heard around trade policy rather than the
small ones.
Senator Cantwell. Okay. Did you have--oh, so you think, in
general, because there's less flexibility of maneuvering,
you're saying it could be a bigger concern?
Dr. Mulligan. And also, that their voice in Washington is
weak without having an office like Advocacy at full capacity
and full efficiency.
Senator Cantwell. And what do you think that we should be
doing to communicate about the impact of, of tariffs on those
small businesses?
Dr. Mulligan. One thing very important, maybe the primary
thing that the Office of Advocacy does, is go out to the small
businesses where they are. They don't require them to know what
phone number to call or where, where to visit in Washington,
what door and what elevator to use. Go out to them. Often,
sometimes in virtual mode as well, especially for the rural.
And listen, just listen, write down and come back to the makers
of the policy, which trade policy or other agencies, and tell
them, hey, here's the concerns that we heard from our
businesses. And the RFA requires you to consider those concerns
when you make your policy decision.
Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Mr. Briggs, do you have any
comments?
Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Senator Cantwell for the question. I
just would note that from my understanding of the tariff
proposal, part of that is to bring back onshore manufacturing
to this company country. We've seen some initial indicators
based on employment numbers that 11,000 manufacturing jobs in
the last or the previous month were started. I do think that
this is part of a larger effort to ultimately do that to bring
back manufacturing to the country.
Senator Cantwell. Well, I definitely agree with you on the
manufacturing jobs, and I would say to my colleague from Ohio,
who was ablely chairing the meeting, that I'm very concerned
because I think that we have brought back jobs in
manufacturing, jobs into the United States because of the CHIPS
and Science Act.
So, the President right now, it's a different story, but is
saying, you know, maybe he wants to get rid of that. I would
say for places like Ohio, and Arizona, and Texas, it has
absolutely brought manufacturing back. And in the State of
Washington, it's brought manufacturing back. Why we should care
is because manufacturing jobs help people go from working class
to middle class because they're good paying jobs, and they help
small businesses in that region help build an ecosystem.
So, I do think the President's statement that somehow, he
could have gotten the semiconductor industry to come back and
manufacture in the United States by tariffs. I don't agree with
that. We may have a philosophical difference there. But the
point is that I hear so many people saying that we haven't
grown manufacturing jobs in the Biden administration because of
those policies did grow manufacturing jobs. So, now the
question is how do we could put pedal to the metal and keep
growing it?
And one of the things that I think a lot of people have
been discussing is how can the policies of the small business
in this administration with access to capital and targeting
some of these supply chain issues, give the American economy a
leg up. So, for example, in my state, we have a lot of--three
different fusion companies. Now we'll see if fusion technology
is really here today, Senator Risch and I chair a Fusion
Caucus. Well, it's a group that's made recommendations to the
United States about how we would accelerate.
But when you think about CHIPS and Science, it's about
let's get the test bedding done, let's get the next generation
done, and then let's make sure we have the supply chain to
accelerate. And if we can just accelerate now, whether it's
Fusion or something else, let's start working with our supply
chains and small businesses so that they are providing those
products here in the United States. And so, I just want to--do
you think that's a smart strategy?
Mr. Briggs. Senator, thank you for your question. And I
assume you're addressing me not Dr. Mulligan?
Senator Cantwell. Yes. Because of your deputy
administrator.
Mr. Briggs. Yeah. I generally support your remarks that
manufacturing can start a small business ecosystem. My focus,
if I'm confirmed, is to help bring back that manufacturing
renaissance, but also to make sure that SBA's core programs
function as best as possible to serve those small businesses
that might come about from a manufacturing renaissance under
the Trump administration.
Senator Cantwell. Yeah. My statement was just a little
different. It said that the test bedding of next generation
technology, the CHIPS and Science Act, is about speeding up the
advancement of technology to happen faster than it normally
would because these big companies or large organizations may
not have the money to do the kind of research, to do the actual
test betting. But once the test bedding's done, it's like we're
off to the races. Okay, now, how do we continue to lead?
And I think it's not that manufacturing would draw the
supply chain or this, you know, eco it is what could SBA do to
help build, help build that and be cognizant of those
opportunities. And so, I do think that when you think about the
AI situation--oh, my gosh, my time's almost over, Madam Chair.
So, but you think about what happened with chat GPT, here we
go. We basically demonstrated a major milestone that that
happened in AI. And then, immediately, China goes and tries to
knock off one aspect of that on how to do it in a cheaper
fashion.
So, I think hand in hand with being the leaders in
technology and innovation is then how do we continue to lead on
the small business and supply chain side of getting those
products and resources there so that ecosystem can be more
aggressively grown. I do think that our great prowess as a
nation is to outpace other countries on the R&D and
implementation.
So, anyway, thank you so much. I will have some more
questions for the record, but thank you so much.
Chair [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Cantwell.
And I'll do a second round of questions. And I do know that
Ranking Member Markey will be back and have additional
questions as well as a closing statement. So, we'll go back to
Mr. Briggs. Last year, SBA failed to alert or provide the
Committee with any information before the agency ran out of
funding for its disaster assistance program.
Administrator Loeffler committed to ensuring Congress has
transparent and timely information from SBA during her
confirmation hearing. Can you additionally confirm that SBA
will keep Congress informed of any changes in SBA's disaster
program or any potential shortfalls?
Mr. Briggs. Chair, thanks for the question. Yes, in all of
my previous times as a Presidential appointee, especially
during Covid, I saw it as part of my job to keep Congress
informed, especially this Committee.
Chair. Very good, thank you. Under the Biden
administration, a myriad of changes to the disaster program
went into place, likely exacerbating the problems that led to
the program shortfall last fall. As someone with experience
leading the Office of Capital Access, how will you ensure that
the disaster loan program is properly managed during your time
as SBA Deputy Administrator?
Mr. Briggs. Madam Chair, thank you for the question. As you
said, I did oversee the Office of Capital Access. After I left,
there was a little bit of that merging with the old Office of
Disaster. And so now the systems are somewhat merged. I think
one of two things I would first immediately do is work with the
current AA or Associate Administrator of the Office of Capital
Access to understand, especially over the last eight weeks,
what has been done, but also to work with our new CFO.
This is, in my opinion, basic blocking and tackling that we
have to make sure there's enough money because we know
disasters are coming. It's inexcusable. We don't know when. But
Covid taught us one thing, think of the worst, and then double
it, or triple it, or ten times it. And so, if I'm confirmed,
that will be my focus to work with both the CFO's office and
the Office of Capital Access on the disaster program.
Chair. So, you've given a very good overview. You are
committing to ensure that a shortfall never happens again. Is
that correct?
Mr. Briggs. Yes, Senator.
Chair. Okay. Thank you very much. And I've got two and a
half minutes remaining. So, let's go to, again, Mr. Briggs.
We'll talk a little bit about disaster field training. Iowa
experiences our fair share of disasters. We've seen derechos,
tornadoes, you name it. Just last week, Iowans experienced a
powerful blizzard that left thousands without power. And now we
are about to go into that tornado season.
In disasters, aftermath, there's a lot of folks that are at
their most vulnerable, and it's, it's something that's very
tragic. They're doing their best to pick up the pieces of their
lives that have been destroyed by something completely out of
their control. Disappointingly, though we have heard repeated
reports over the years of SBA field staff showing poor customer
service to the disaster victims who come to them for help.
Victims have been profiled, made to feel SBA cannot do
anything for them, and even left with completely incorrect
information. This happened in Iowa. This is unacceptable and it
must be changed. As SBA Deputy Administrator, how will you help
ensure SBA disaster field staff will be properly trained and
equipped to help disaster victims access SBA assistance
Mr. Briggs. Chair, thank you for that question. It's
inexcusable when situations happen like that and people are at
their most vulnerable. When I served in the prior
administration, one of the initiatives I undertook was the
Field Lineman Initiative to ensure that there was consistent
customer service across the country.
So, the customer service that small businesses got in Iowa
was the same they would've gotten in Massachusetts. This is the
sort of thing that I take great pride in working with the
Office of Field Operations. I believe the associate
administrator from there is from Iowa. And so, we'll work to
address that as quick as possible, but people really need the
SBA during disasters that was made abundantly clear to me
during my prior term and will be a key focus of mine getting
the disaster thing right going forward.
Chair. Thank you so much. I appreciate that commitment. And
then, if--do we have Senator Markey coming back? I think we
have one more Senator coming, and then we'll go back to Senator
Markey.
But a little bit about our experience in Iowa. Last year,
during the tornado season, we saw a number of our very small
communities that have been wiped out by those disasters. In one
case, 60 percent of the homes and businesses in one town was
gone after a tornado, and my own staff was on ground to assist
those people that had been impacted by the tornado.
And the SBA field staff had provided inaccurate,
incomplete, absolutely wrong information, and actually provided
them a handout with a website that had been dead for heaven
knows how long. So, that's why it's so important. We have got
to provide people with accurate information when they are most
vulnerable.
And Mr. Justice is getting situated. So, Senator, if you're
ready to proceed with some questions, we've had some great
dialogue today. You're recognized.
Senator Justice. Madam Chairman, thank you so much. And
thank both of these wonderful young men that I've had the
opportunity to talk to and be with. And I really appreciate
both that I can tell you just this from Jim Justice's
standpoint. Jim Justice is a business guy. He's not a
politician. You know, I'm a small business guy, and I have had
dialogue with both these individuals and we are blessed. We are
just flat blessed to have them both.
Mr. Briggs was here before, and you bring so much to the
table. And Mr. Mulligan, I am just so impressed with you. It's
off the chart. So, with all that being said, I've got a couple
questions that are kind of bland in themselves, but I would
just tell you first and foremost that you can't fathom in West
Virginia how important our small businesses are.
But we really can't fathom all across this nation.
Absolutely. The guts, the absolute everything we have in this
nation starts with our small businesses. And so, with all that
being said, again, we have two guys here, two gentlemen that
are going to lead us, and they're going to knock it flat out of
the park. And I promise you that.
And so, if I could ask this question real quick, Mr.
Briggs. You've been there before, and my question reads, can
you tell us today how your prior experience at SBA is going to
be serve you the very best and serve all of us at the highest
level?
Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Senator, for that question. During
the first term, I had the privilege to travel your state three
times on Office of Capital Access Business. I'm a big fan of
West Virginia.
Senator Justice. And you loved it, didn't you?
Mr. Briggs. I loved it, yeah.
Senator Justice. Now, we're talking.
Mr. Briggs. We were doing that during the rural
initiatives. One of the things that we did, sir, I served at
the SBA, probably the most crucial time in the agency's history
outside of its founding, and it was stretched to its limit. And
so, from that kind of experience, or battlefield experience, as
it were, you just learn things you would otherwise never learn.
You understand it, you quickly, intuitively understand how the
agency works and what's needs to be done.
In addition to that kind of insider knowledge of how it
works, I also bring these tremendous external relationships
formed during that era, and a willingness to work with the
Committee on both sides, particularly as it comes to disaster
response and related issues to better serve American small
businesses.
Senator Justice. I believe that. I believe every part. And
absolutely not only do I believe, but all of us will hold you
to that, too. And I think we'll hold you to that very proudly.
And if I could go to Mr. Mulligan just real quick and just
say, just this, West Virginia, I just spoke just a second ago,
I had the great opportunity to be the Governor of West Virginia
for eight years. Now, just think about this. I've said this
over and over and over. What is my number one responsibility
when I was the Governor? My number one responsibility. You
know, you may think, well, take care of the people. You know,
absolutely be there when things get really tough on them and
everything and all those things are true. Absolutely. Make sure
we're safe. All those things are true.
But the number one thing that I felt was get the economics
right. Make sure the economics were right, because if the
economics were right, then you can do so much for so many. And
if the economics are upside down, and believe me, when I walked
in the door, and I don't say this braggadociously, but West
Virginia was bankrupt. That's all there is to it.
And all of a sudden, we got it really, really, really
cooking. And at the end of the day, we'd have never got it
really cooking if it hadn't have been for great people like you
and absolutely all the support of SBA, all across the planet in
West Virginia. So, Mr. Mulligan, understanding all that and
understanding absolutely how vital our economy is, tell us,
tell me just a couple of things about how you would support our
rural economy and absolutely in every way.
Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I was glad to be
in your office and share with you the priorities that I have
for the Office of Advocacy, if I'm confirmed. And the rural
small businesses are something that the office is well situated
to serve and listen to. Really, it's listening exercise and
coming back and communicating.
So, the office has been, historically it's been to West
Virginia to visit the small businesses where they are. There
was a line business there. They recently visited with the
farmers. We have the opportunity to go out and meet them also
virtual meetings. And the whole point is to listen and then
come back to Washington. In Washington, they have authority.
But not knowledge and relay, Hey, the small business in West
Virginia, they have these concerns and you really need to take
them to account before you make your policies.
Senator Justice. Well, let me just add one comment. You're
splitting the bullseye on one thing. You know, I'm a real
believer, of if you want to know what's going on with your
business, you got to get you got to get out there and get dirty
and get right with the people. You know, that's all there is to
it. And literally, I hear you in every way. And that is a
terrific answer to me. Madam Chairman, thank you so much.
Chair. You bet. Thank you, Senator Justice. We'll go now to
five minutes to Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you.
Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you
both for being here, Mr. Briggs, Mr. Mulligan. Appreciate your
willingness to enter service.
I'll start with you, Mr. Briggs. Congress created the SBA
in the law so that it could promote access to capital for small
businesses. When I was governor in a different lifetime, we did
what we call the bottom-up economic development plan. But one
of the five main things that literally every part of the state
said is we need better access to capital. And I think that's
why Congress appropriates money to SBA programs is we get
access to capital.
In the last few months, we've seen the President
administration try to defy Congress and restrain those funds
again against frozen money that Congress appropriated and
really tried to shut down whole agencies that we had created
through law. And I just am worried that that funding for small
business is going to disappear for if we're not on top of it.
So, I want to make sure that you're willing to do everything
you can to running the SBA in line with the law including
appropriations as Congress intended.
Mr. Briggs. Senator Hickenlooper, thank you for the
question. If confirmed by the Senate, I will uphold the law in
a fair and impartial manner.
Senator Hickenlooper. Okay. Well, I'll take that as a yes
then. Mr. Mulligan, small business owners often face a range of
challenges and barriers and stuff until you've done it. I mean,
it took me almost two years to raise the money to open my first
restaurant.
But those barriers change over time. They evolve and I
think it's important that we stay on top of this evolving small
business landscape and make sure that we're understanding that
trends like AI changes in the lending market that we're on,
that we're recognizing how they affect entrepreneurs, how they
change the access to capital.
So, in your view, what developments in the small business
environment should we be focusing on trying to understand
better? How would you use the Office of Advocacy to make sure
that Congress and the SBA stay informed?
Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I agree with
you, 100 percent. The small business economy changes pretty
fast, and it's been changing fast in recent times, and that
means the data we had before is obsolete, and you really want
to get access to new data that reflects the current situation.
You mentioned AI. I think it's a factor. Different types of
employment relationships are evolving over time. And one of the
great things about the Office of Advocacy is even before there
was a Regulatory Flexibility Act, Congress understood that this
issue of measurement, and they created the office to have an
Office of Economic Research and do measurement.
I think a lot of the members even to this day are relying
on the small business numbers that come from the office. And it
would be a huge priority, not just because I've been an
economic researcher for so many years, but be a huge priority
for me to make sure the statistics are the best and up to date
and reflect the current situation.
Senator Hickenlooper. I could not agree more. I think that
I tell my staff all the time is information is power. And the
more we share that power with where people can put it to use
like small business entrepreneurs the better off we are.
Mr. Briggs small businesses in Indian country face unique
challenges, and that's no surprise. The landscape is in many
cases more challenging in a variety of ways. Last Congress, we
worked with Senators on both sides of the aisle to create bill
that would codify the SBAs office of Native American Affairs.
That bill came out of this committee with 18 to 1 vote.
If you're confirmed, are you willing to commit to doing
everything you can or to aggressively try to make sure that the
Office of Native American Affairs has the resources it needs to
try and support Indian entrepreneurs who oftentimes have far
more difficult access to capital than anyone else?
Mr. Briggs. Senator, thank you for the question. I'm aware
of the challenges facing the Native American community. My
sister lives in New Mexico and has worked on a reservation in
Taos, New Mexico, and has told me of the challenges facing that
particular community. I commit to certainly looking at this
legislation and working with your office and the full Committee
on this issue as part of if I'm confirmed by the Senate.
Senator Hickenlooper. Right. Well, I appreciate that. I
think in so many ways, the SBA is that bastion, that place
where entrepreneurs can turn. With all due respect, to the SBA,
you have to have a little bit of capital, a little bit of
momentum before the SBA will even answer your call. But once
you get to that point, the SBA can provide solutions and
resources to people that when they get that access. And I
remember when we first got our 7(a) loan and it transformed our
business in ways that, I mean, would take hours to explain.
So, anyway, I tremendously respect both of you for your
effort to come and help small businesses. They are without
question the core of our economy. Thank you. I yield back to
the chair.
Chair. Thank you very much, Senator Hickenlooper. And that
will conclude our questions. If there are no further questions,
I want to thank Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan for being here with
us today and for your willingness to serve. We do appreciate
it.
We are going to leave the record open for two days until
5:00 p.m. on Friday, March 14th, for the members to submit
questions for the record. And we will keep the record open for
two weeks to edit statements, and submit letters and any other
relevant materials.
Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan, we would appreciate your
prompt response to any questions submitted for the record. We
do require your responses prior to advancing your nominations
out of the Committee. And with that, the Committee on Small
Business and Entrepreneurship stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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