[Senate Hearing 119-37]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                        S. Hrg. 119-37

                  AFTER ASSAD: NAVIGATING SYRIA POLICY

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                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                           FEBRUARY 13, 2025

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Relations
       
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                  Available via http://www.govinfo.gov

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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
59-893 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
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                 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS        

                JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho, Chairman 
                
PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska                JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
DAVID MCCORMICK, Pennsylvania          CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
STEVE DAINES, Montana                  CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut
BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee                TIM KAINE, Virginia
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming                 JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon
RAND PAUL, Kentucky                    CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
TED CRUZ, Texas                        BRIAN SCHATZ, Hawaii
MIKE LEE, Utah                         CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
RICK SCOTT, Florida                    TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                   JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
JOHN CORNYN, Texas
             
             Christopher M. Socha, Staff Director          
           Naz Durakoglu, Democratic Staff Director          
                   John Dutton, Chief Clerk          

                              (ii)        

  
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                                                                   Page

                               Statements

Risch, Hon. James E., Chairman, U.S. Senator From Idaho..........     1

Shaheen, Hon. Jeanne, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator From New 
  Hampshire......................................................     3

                               Witnesses

Singh, Michael, Managing Director and Lane-Swig Senior Fellow, 
  The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Washington, DC..     6
    Prepared statement...........................................     8

Stroul, Dana, Director of Research and Shelly and Michael Kassen 
  Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, 
  Washington, DC.................................................    13
    Prepared statement...........................................    15

              Additional Material Submitted for the Record

Letter to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from Gen. 
  Mazloum Abdi, Command-in-Chief of the Syrian Democratic Forces, 
  February 13, 2025, submitted by Senator Jeanne Shaheen.........    40

Statement for the Record from Citizens for a Safe and Secure 
  America et al., February 13, 2025, submitted by Senator Jeanne 
  Shaheen........................................................    42

Letter to Senator Shaheen from the Access Centre For Human Rights 
  (ACHR) et al., February 10, 2025, submitted by Senator Jeanne 
  Shaheen........................................................    52

Fact Sheet: U.S. Assistance in Syria, submitted by Senator Jeanne 
  Shaheen........................................................    60

The White House's wildly inaccurate claims about USAID spending, 
  the Washington Post, February 7, 2025, submitted by Senator 
  Chris Van Hollen...............................................    62

                                
                                (iii)

 
                  AFTER ASSAD: NAVIGATING SYRIA POLICY

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2025

                                       U.S. Senate,
                            Committee on Foreign Relations,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:46 a.m., in 
room SD-419, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. James E. 
Risch, chairman of the committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Risch [presiding], Ricketts, McCormick, 
Shaheen, Coons, Kaine, Van Hollen, Duckworth, and Rosen.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES E. RISCH, 
               CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM IDAHO

    Senator Risch. Today we are going to talk about Syria. I 
would call it opportunities that we want to look at--this is an 
important hearing.
    For those of you in the audience, we are glad to have you. 
This is a public hearing, and we appreciate you attending and 
watching what we do, but participation is not allowed.
    So as I have said over and over again, if you interrupt the 
proceedings, if you try to get attention, if you try to 
distract the committee or witnesses in any way, you will 
immediately be removed by our friends here who are working 
security and be charged, and also you will be banned from the 
committee for a year.
    So with that, on a zero tolerance policy, I have got a few 
remarks I would like to make to open. Then I am going to yield 
to the distinguished ranking member for remarks.
    Then we have two excellent witnesses here, one alumni of 
the staff of this committee, and so, obviously, well trained, 
and we are anxious to hear their thoughts.
    The ranking member and I have been discussing this issue 
for some time, and I think there are opportunities here.
    Since the Hamas October 7 terror attack in Israel, long 
held policy assumptions governing the Middle East have been 
turned on their head. Iran's ring of fire, which had encircled 
Israel with terror proxies and instability for decades, is now 
in ruins.
    Thanks to our ally, Israel, Hamas is on its deathbed. The 
crown jewel of Tehran's terror groups, Hezbollah, is in 
tatters. Iran's weapons superhighway through Syria has been 
severed, and perhaps, most shockingly, the Assad regime, a 
fixture of brutality, collapsed in what seems like an instant.
    The fall of the Assad regime presents policymakers with a 
dilemma. How should the United States engage with Syria? Should 
we engage with Syria and at the same time safeguard U.S. 
national security interests now that the Assad regime is gone?
    There is a very real tradeoff between opportunity and risk. 
Too much engagement too soon could create more security 
dilemmas but no or little engagement
    Too little engagement could give Russia and Iran the 
ability to wield substantial influence again and also signal 
that the U.S. has no interest, which would be an incorrect 
assumption.
    Make no mistake, there are very real dangers to lifting 
sanctions too quickly. After all, Syria's interim leader al-
Sharaa has rebranded himself as a moderate, but he has 
supported some of the most violent terror groups in the Middle 
East. He fought under al-Qaeda in Iraq, worked under the 
Islamic State, and pledged allegiance to al-Qaeda all in the 
past.
    In addition, Syria is rightly subject to a vast array of 
sanctions to include sanctions placed on the Caesar Act, which 
I drew and all of us supported to get in place.
    Before the United States expands its engagement, several 
vital security interests need to be addressed, and I am going 
to list four of those in just a minute.
    Going back to al-Sharaa--and we should be fair that he has 
been saying the right things, and much of the bad behavior that 
he committed, admittedly, is quite a ways in the past.
    So let us talk about the things that need to be addressed 
if we are going to engage with Syria.
    Number one, following the tragic attacks in New Orleans, 
which was inspired by the Islamic State, and troubling reports 
of ISIS infiltration across the southern border during the 
Biden administration, we need evidence that the interim 
government will not allow Syria to be a launching pad for 
terror attacks against the United States or our partners.
    This includes full accountability and elimination of the 
Assad regime's chemical weapons stockpiles.
    Second, Russia and Iran must be permanently ejected from 
Syria. Moscow must not have use of its port on the 
Mediterranean to threaten the United States or our allies. I am 
particularly troubled by Damascus recently hosting a Russian 
delegation to explore basing agreements.
    Third, the Assad regime tragically turned Syria into a 
narco state, flooding the region with illegal drugs and fueling 
corruption and instability in the region. Additionally, this 
trade of methamphetamine and Captagon served as a source of 
revenue for the Assad regime, undermining the impact of U.S. 
and international sanctions and wreaking havoc on Syria's 
neighbors.
    Assad's methamphetamine empire, and with its sprawling 
infrastructure and literal mountains of inventory, has to be 
destroyed.
    Fourth, the interim government must account for American 
citizens detained by the Assad regime, including Austin Tice. 
This is a top priority for the United States and should be a 
top priority for Syrian leaders if they truly wish to work 
toward change in our bilateral relationship.
    Finally, al-Sharaa dissolved the Syrian constitution and 
appointed himself president for 4 years. Syrians deserve a 
realistic political roadmap that returns power to the Syrian 
people and does not fall back into a brutal dictatorship that 
threatens them or American security.
    On all of these fronts the United States requires more than 
promises. If the new Syrian regime wants to have a friend in 
the United States, which the new interim government says that 
they do, we need to see action on the items I have laid out. If 
they do that they will find a willing partner in the United 
States.
    In short, we must help and do enough to show the new 
interim government we are sincere in our desire to build an 
alliance, and at the same time we must, with clear eyes, 
maintain the ability to disengage if they prove to be nothing 
more than just another authoritarian government with no respect 
for human rights or religious diversity.
    So I know the National Security Council at the White House 
is working on a Syrian policy. I am happy they are doing that.
    We are giving them our input, and what I would propose that 
they seriously consider what we are going to say here today, 
and I am not talking about United States taxpayer dollars.
    What I am talking about is a gradual lifting of the Caesar 
sanctions that we have put in place. Let them come into place. 
Let us see how we are doing.
    Let us see how the new interim government acts, and if that 
happens we will continue in a stream of lifting those 
sanctions, and I am urging, because time is of the essence 
here, that the National Security Council take this up as soon 
as possible. Until that happens this is the policy of the 
United States I believe we should follow that I will be 
pursuing.
    With that, I know the ranking member and I share some 
common thoughts in this regard. We have spoken about it a lot, 
and like myself she has spoken with a lot of the Syrian people 
and other people who have interests in the region.
    So with that, let me yield to Senator Shaheen.

               STATEMENT OF HON. JEANNE SHAHEEN, 
        RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE

    Senator Shaheen. Well, thank you very much, Chairman Risch, 
and welcome to our witnesses.
    Thank you both for joining us today.
    Let me also recognize--I understand we have some 
representatives from the White Helmets who are in the audience 
today.
    Let me thank you for your service to the people of Syria.
    I would like to begin by asking for consent to enter three 
statements into the record, Mr. Chairman.
    The first is from General Mazloum who is the commanding 
general of the Syrian Democratic Forces, the second is from the 
Syrian American diaspora, and the third is from NGOs who have 
been working on Syria assistance.
    Senator Risch. Without objection.
    [Editor's note.--The information referred to above can be 
found in the ``Additional Material Submitted for the Record'' 
section at the end of this document.]
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you.
    Senator Risch and I, as he indicated, have spent a number 
of years working toward a better Syria. We are both relieved 
that after 50 years the Assad regime has finally fallen.
    This was a regime that tortured and killed hundreds of 
thousands of Syrians. They forced millions to flee their homes. 
They gave an opening for terror groups like ISIS. They extended 
Vladimir Putin's reach and power into the Middle East.
    Assad's fall was a defeat for Putin. We want to make sure 
that it continues to be a defeat for Putin. He not only lost a 
deepwater port that allowed him to threaten NATO's southern 
flank, but he lost a reliable defense partner who gave Russia a 
decade to practice the military tactics in Syria that they are 
using today in Ukraine.
    So Assad's fall, as Chairman Risch has pointed out, creates 
an opportunity. It is a chance for us to rebuild from the 
rubble, a chance for the economy to recover, a chance for 
refugees to come home, and a chance to deny Putin, as well as 
Iran's Revolutionary Guard, a strategic foothold in the region.
    Tehran wants the Syrian land bridge to the Mediterranean 
and to its proxies. They want their UAV development and missile 
sites back. They want to return to training security forces in 
Syria.
    Stopping them, I believe, is critical to U.S. interests and 
to our partners in the region like Lebanon and Israel.
    U.S. efforts in Syria are also key to preventing ISIS from 
taking advantage of the vacuum. ISIS has terrorized people 
across Syria and the region, and ISIS has radicalized and 
inspired lone wolf terrorists who have struck inside the 
American homeland--San Bernardino, California; Orlando, 
Florida; Garland, Texas; Ohio State University; New York; New 
Orleans.
    It is a very long list, and we should be doing everything 
we can to prevent this terrorist group from reconstituting 
itself.
    And it is not enough to leave the mission up to Turkey. We 
need to stand with our Kurdish allies and the entire global 
coalition to defeat ISIS. We cannot cut and run at this 
critical moment.
    That is why the foreign aid freeze and recent attempts to 
shut down the United States Agency for International 
Development are so disturbing.
    Mr. Chairman, I would ask for consent to enter a summary on 
assistance blocked in Syria for the record as well.
    Senator Risch. Without objection.
    [Editor's note.--The information referred to above can be 
found in the ``Additional Material Submitted for the Record'' 
section at the end of this document.]
    Senator Shaheen. Not only have these efforts meant cutting 
off programs to educate women and girls and help the very basic 
needs like delivering babies, they have directly undermined 
efforts to combat ISIS, to preserve evidence, to hold Assad and 
his regime accountable for their crimes.
    We have heard that security guards have been at risk at Al-
Hol, which is a huge detention camp in Syria where ISIS is 
looking to reconstitute itself. We cannot allow that to happen.
    Evidence that could help bring Austin Tice and recover 
Americans who have been murdered in Syria needs to be 
addressed. That is why I have asked Secretary Rubio to 
immediately issue waivers for aid to Syria including to support 
the security of ISIS detention facilities.
    At the same time, we need to move quickly toward targeted 
sanctions relief, and we are not talking about throwing open 
the doors to the U.S. banking system.
    These sanctions were put in place on the Assad regime. That 
regime is gone. If we do not reevaluate those sanctions we 
punish all Syrians for the sentence of Assad.
    Syria's transitional government needs to understand the 
expectations of the United States and the international 
community, and that means we need clear, measurable benchmarks 
for an inclusive government that respects the rule of law and 
protects the Syrian people.
    Sanctions relief will also help bring in the investments 
from regional partners and the international community that 
Syria needs to rebuild.
    This is a once in a generation opportunity, but it will not 
last forever.
    So I hope our witnesses will speak to the challenges there 
and the opportunities and help us think about how we can move 
swiftly to take advantage of the situation.
    How can we incentivize inclusive governance, transparency, 
and the rule of law? How can we support stability in Syria and 
prevent our adversaries like Russia and Iran from regaining a 
foothold?
    And what steps can we take in this short window of 
opportunity to keep Americans safe from the threat of terrorist 
groups like ISIS?
    So I look forward to hearing your testimony today and to 
our conversation. Thank you.
    Senator Risch. Thank you, Senator Shaheen.
    And the matters of expenditures of U.S. taxpayer dollars on 
a lot of these matters, as you know, were fluid and being 
reviewed. I have no doubt that this will get resolved 
appropriately in the not too distant future.
    So with that, we are going to turn to our distinguished 
panel.
    First of all, we are going to start with Mr. Michael Singh. 
He is the managing director and Lane-Swig senior fellow at the 
Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
    He was senior director of the Middle East affairs at the 
White House from 2007 to 2008 and a director on the National 
Security Council staff from 2005 to 2007. Mr. Singh co-chaired 
the bipartisan congressionally appointed Syria Study Group with 
Ms. Stroul, who also joins us here today.
    The group released its final report on U.S. policy toward 
the conflict in Syria in September 2019. Much has changed since 
then, which is why we are here today, and I suspect both of you 
are surprised, as a lot of us were, at the breathtaking speed 
and pace at which Syria changed.
    So with that, Mr. Singh, the floor is yours.

  STATEMENT OF MICHAEL SINGH, MANAGING DIRECTOR AND LANE-SWIG 
 SENIOR FELLOW, THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY, 
                         WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Singh. Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 
Shaheen, members of the committee. It is great to be back with 
you to discuss this subject at a time that I agree is fraught 
with risk but is also full of hope. The question before us, 
really, is how do we seize this opportunity that both of you, I 
think, have eloquently and accurately described while getting 
around the many obstacles that there are to actually realizing 
some of these positive benefits. I, frankly, find a lot to 
agree with in both of your statements, and I will try to avoid 
repeating it.
    First, the opportunity. You both described it. Syria has 
been for years a Star Wars bar for U.S. adversaries in the 
region, whether that is ISIS and al-Qaeda, Iran, Russia.
    It has been the platform for power projection for those 
adversaries, where their actions have not just been confined to 
Syria, but they have used Syria to try to attack Israel, to 
destabilize Lebanon, and so on and so forth.
    And the conflict in Syria over the past 14 years has not 
remained confined to Syria. It has drawn in numerous foreign 
forces, including ours. It has sparked massive refugee flows to 
Europe and to Syria's neighbors.
    It has led to, as you mentioned, to Syria's rise as a major 
narco trafficking state, something which we had not seen 
before, and even saw the first use of chemical weapons in war 
for decades since, I think, World War I.
    And when you go through that list, it is absolutely clear 
that the emergence of a new and better government in Syria 
would represent probably the starkest and most positive change 
of the many changes that the Middle East has seen since the 
heinous attacks of October 7, 2023.
    But we are a long way from realizing that opportunity. We 
can see it, but it is not yet within our grasp. What are the 
obstacles?
    First, both of you mentioned Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham, the 
group that has taken Damascus, and its leader Ahmed al-Sharaa 
and his background.
    It does seem as though Sharaa and HTS have sincerely, as 
far as we can tell, broken ties with ISIS and with al-Qaeda, 
and even cracked down on those groups within the territory they 
previously controlled in Idlib.
    But HTS continues, as far as we can tell, to adhere to a 
rigid and intolerant Islamist ideology, and it is reflected in 
the way that they governed Idlib, which was repressive toward 
minorities and toward women, toward dissent, and it was also 
authoritarian. Sharaa's rule was unchallenged in Idlib.
    HTS for the past several years, since at least 2018, has 
tried to reassure us that we are not their enemy and that they 
want to work with the West.
    But there, I would say, are unmistakable parallels between 
the rise of HTS and the rerise of the Taliban in Afghanistan, 
which made a lot of the same promises that we are seeing now 
from HTS and has not, obviously, followed through on those 
promises.
    The second obstacle, as both of you mentioned, ISIS is not 
defeated, and in fact, we have seen a resurgence in ISIS 
attacks, according to CENTCOM, over the past year, and I think 
there is a lot of reason to worry just from initial reports 
that ISIS is trying to use this time--this time of instability 
and transition, to mount a comeback, and there is a lot of 
reason to worry that they could try to free those fighters and 
those family members that both of you mentioned who are in 
northeastern Syria hoping that, you know, we will take our eye 
off the ball or otherwise the situation will break down.
    Third, I think there is a real risk that a new chapter of 
conflict could open in Syria, whether that is between Syrian 
factions, as HTS tries to consolidate its power, or as Turkey 
tries to seize territory and target Kurdish fighters, including 
those making up the SDF with which, as you know, we work.
    And then, fourth and finally, my view is our adversaries 
are going to try to regain their footing in Syria.
    As you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, Russia wants to salvage a 
role for itself. China's role was modest under the Assad 
regime, but they may see strategic and economic opportunities 
here. And even Iran, which the--I do not think the new 
government of Syria is going to like, will try to take 
advantage as it often does, of this poorly governed space and 
to try to work through proxies.
    So what do we do? How can we seize the opportunity and get 
around these obstacles?
    Briefly, let me recommend the following. First, we need to 
continue to prioritize our counterterrorism operations and 
partnerships. We cannot ease up the pressure on ISIS.
    Second, I do think we should engage pragmatically with HTS 
and test its willingness to cooperate on areas of shared 
concern like countering Iran and ISIS, counter narcotics, 
border security and so forth, and we need to watch and see if 
HTS is truly committed to more inclusive governance, which is, 
I think, the key to long term peace and stability and the key 
to our interests as well.
    Third, we should take a phased and performance based 
approach to the relief of sanctions, which is something 
absolutely Syrians will need as they go forward.
    And then, finally, as we look at the bigger regional 
picture, I lay out a full agenda in my written testimony, but 
several things are key.
    First and foremost, we have to work assiduously to ensure 
that Syria never again falls into the orbit of Iran, and we 
cannot cede the ground of Syria to Russia and China.
    Second, we need to work in lockstep with our Arab partners. 
We did not do this in Iraq after 2003. And what happened was 
those partners shunned Baghdad, and we and they left it exposed 
to Iranian domination. We do not want to see that happen here.
    Third, we need to reach an understanding with Turkey that 
it should respect Syrian sovereignty and refrain from actions 
that are going to undermine stability or our interests there.
    And then, finally, we need to take this opportunity to try 
to cement Israeli-Syrian nonaggression understandings, which 
could eventually lead to actual peace between Israel and Syria, 
which is something we have sought for a long time.
    It is a full agenda but I agree it is a historic 
opportunity, and seizing it, I think, is going to take 
patience, pragmatism, but most of all American leadership.
    Thanks very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Singh follows:]

                Prepared Statement of Mr. Michael Singh

    Since Hamas' heinous attack on Israel on October 7, 2023, the 
geopolitical landscape in the Middle East has shifted dramatically. Yet 
many of these changes are tentative or incomplete--Hamas in Gaza and 
Hezbollah in Lebanon will seek to rebuild with Iran's help, and Iran 
itself will look to Russia and China as it aims to rearm. In each 
place, whether the changes wrought by a year-and-a-half of war are 
lasting or fleeting depends heavily on the actions and determination of 
local and external actors.
    In Syria, on the other hand, change is not only certain, it is 
unfolding swiftly. More than fifty years of Assad family rule has come 
to an abrupt end. It is cause for satisfaction in Washington--the Assad 
regime sponsored terrorism against the United States and Israel, served 
as a base of operations for Iran and Russia, brutally repressed the 
Syrian people, employed chemical weapons and clandestinely sought 
nuclear weapons, and in recent years became a leading trafficker of 
illegal narcotics. Whatever Syria's next chapter may hold, it will be a 
sharp break from the past five decades.
    Yet there is good reason for unease regarding what Syria's future 
holds and its implications for American interests. The new government 
in Damascus is dominated by Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, a US-designated 
terrorist group whose roots lie in the global jihadist movement 
spearheaded by Al-Qaida and whose leader--now appointed as Syria's 
president--spent time in prison for fighting against US forces in Iraq. 
Even if the group's intentions are good, the task facing it is 
enormous--Syrian history between its independence in 1946 the rise of 
Hafez al-Assad in 1970 was marked by numerous coups and communal 
violence, and since 2011 the country has been effectively divided into 
statelets and occupied by foreign forces. The divisions which Syrians 
will need to surmount if they are to come together and rebuild their 
society and economy are deep indeed, and extend beyond the country's 
own borders.
    While putting Syria on a better path may be a daunting challenge, 
it is also an opportunity--not just for Syrians themselves, but for the 
Middle East, the West, and the United States. The Assad regime was 
implicated in many of the most serious national security threats 
emanating from the region and contributed to threats globally. The 
United States should, through pragmatic but cautious engagement, 
explore whether the Assad regime's collapse could represent a 
meaningful reduction in these threats.
                        threats to us interests
    In a world full of conflicts, the war in Syria has long stood out 
for the threats it posed to US interests. As detailed in the September 
2019 report of the congressionally mandated Syria Study Group \1\, 
numerous threats have long originated in the country. ISIS, Al-Qaida, 
and other terrorist groups--including Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which has 
historical links to both--have long operated out of Syria. Though ISIS 
is diminished, it continues to mount attacks. Syria has also been a 
forward operating base for Iran, which used the country both to 
coordinate with regional terrorist proxies and for the transshipment of 
arms to Hezbollah in Lebanon and groups in the West Bank; and for 
Russia, whose 2015 intervention in Syria aimed to thwart US objectives 
there and reestablish Moscow as a regional player. The conflict saw the 
open use of chemical weapons by the Assad regime and raised questions 
about the disposition of any residual elements of Syria's nuclear 
program, which was largely destroyed by Israel in 2007.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The Syria Study Group report can be found here: https://
www.usip.org/syria-study-group-final-report
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nor were the Syrian conflict's effects confined within the 
country's own borders--Syrian refugees flooded and imposed a 
significant economic burden on the region and Europe. The conflict drew 
in Turkey, Israel, and of course the United States, among others, and 
placed US partners like the Syrian Democratic Forces into direct 
conflict with Turkish and Russian-backed forces, the latter of which 
also used Syria to project power into the Mediterranean and Africa. 
More recently, Syria has also become a major global narco-trafficking 
hub, producing eighty percent of the world's captagon supply and 
generating illicit revenues worth three times those earned by Mexican 
drug cartels, according to the British government. \2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tackling-the-illicit-drug-
trade-fuelling-assads-war-machine
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These threats have evolved but not disappeared with the collapse of 
the Assad regime. Several risks stand out in the current situation:

     The Rise of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham. The Assad regime's 
overthrow came at the hands of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), which had 
for several years ruled over the city and province of Idlib in northern 
Syria. HTS presents a complex case for US counter-terrorism policy, and 
in many respects a novel one, though its rise has parallels to the 
Taliban in Afghanistan. HTS' leader, Ahmed al-Sharaa, at one point 
fought with Al-Qaida in Iraq (which later became ISIS) against US 
forces, subsequently spending 7 years in an American-run prison. From 
there, he traveled a circuitous path, breaking from ISIS and 
affiliating with Al-Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, with whom he also 
subsequently broke ties pursuant to his decision to focus on fighting 
the Assad regime rather than engaging in international terrorism.
    While HTS and Sharaa eschewed attacks abroad, their record 
governing Idlib gives cause for concern. Though the group acted against 
jihadists in its territory who sought to mount overseas attacks, HTS 
fighters also clashed as recently as 2022 with US forces pursuing ISIS 
leaders. In addition, Sharaa and HTS have praised the use of terrorism 
elsewhere, such as Hamas' attacks against Israel. In addition, Sharaa 
in the past characterized HTS as defending not just Syria, but 
defending Sunni Muslims globally, and the HTS government in Idlib 
persecuted non-Sunni minorities, executed dissenting Sunni scholars, 
repressed women, and even imprisoned and tortured Western journalists. 
Furthermore, the HTS government of Idlib was essentially authoritarian, 
with Sharaa as its unchallenged leader.
    In recent years however--even before taking control of Damascus in 
December 2024--Sharaa and HTS have sought to project moderation. The 
group reportedly provided assurances to US envoys in 2018 that it did 
not consider the United States an enemy, softened its policies toward 
the Christian and Druze residents of Idlib, denied plans to enforce a 
harsh Islamist agenda, and since assuming control of the Syrian 
government placed women in a handful of senior positions and welcomed 
envoys from the West and elsewhere. Yet there is reason to worry that 
HTS' shifts may simply represent new means for accomplishing 
longstanding ends. HTS ideologues have compared the group to the 
Taliban, with Washington Institute scholar Aaron Zelin noting, ``The 
Taliban's successful negotiation of the United States' exit from 
Afghanistan in August 2021 and the prior talks that occurred in Doha, 
Qatar, provide a potential example of new strategies that jihadist 
groups might employ to further their ultimate goals.'' \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/sites/default/files/pdf/
PolicyFocus175Zelinv2.pdf

     A Possible Resurgence of ISIS. While ISIS no longer 
controls significant territories in Syria, the group is not defeated. 
Indeed, as of June 2024, ISIS was on track to double the number of 
attacks it conducted in 2023, according to Centcom. \4\ There is good 
reason to worry that ISIS may seize upon current events to mount a 
broader comeback. In the days following the fall of the Assad regime, 
ISIS reportedly seized significant numbers of weapons in formerly 
regime-held areas. Among other purposes, those weapons could be used in 
any effort to free the thousands of ISIS fighters imprisoned in 
northeastern Syria, of the tens of thousands of ISIS family members--
spouses but especially children--from the Al-Hol and Roj camps. These 
prisons and camps are guarded by the US-partnered Syrian Democratic 
Forces, who have already come under new pressures since the regime's 
collapse.
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    There is also a risk that Syria could become a safe haven for other 
terrorist groups. In its campaign to oust Assad and focus on Syria 
first and foremost, HTS did not just break from but clashed with AQ, 
ISIS, and other externally focused groups in recent years. Now that it 
has accomplished its proximate goal of overthrowing Assad, however, its 
will and ability to persist in this approach will be tested. Western 
policymakers will doubtless be mindful of the fact that the Afghan 
Taliban also pledged not to permit territory they controlled to be used 
in overseas terror plots, but has not honored that promise. Nor is it 
clear that HTS, now that it is in control of Damascus, will adopt the 
same disapproving attitude toward Palestinian terrorist groups active 
there as they have done toward jihadist groups targeting the West, 
especially given Sharaa's past praise for Hamas attacks on Israel.

     Renewed Intra-Syrian Conflict. In abolishing Syria's 
constitution and declaring himself president, Ahmed al-Sharaa also 
called for the dissolution of the country's numerous armed groups. 
While this putatively included his own group, HTS, it also implied that 
groups such as the Turkish-supported Syrian National Army (SNA) and US-
partnered Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) should cease to exist as 
independent entities and somehow be integrated into a national 
military. While talks are reportedly ongoing between the new government 
and the SDF, it is not clear whether an agreement will be reached; 
Syria's Kurdish minority not only faces possible attack by Turkish-
backed forces and ISIS remnants, but has a history of persecution at 
the hands of Damascus which will likely diminish its willingness to 
disband its forces.
    Other flashpoints in post-Assad Syria include the Syria-Turkey 
border, where Turkey and its local partners have sought to expand the 
territory they control; the Golan Heights, where Israel has moved into 
territories previously controlled by forces allied with the Syrian 
regime; and the Iraq-Syria border, which remains closed by the Iraqi 
government and patrolled by Iranian-backed Iraqi militias.
    Role of Iran, Russia, and China. The fall of the Assad regime was a 
blow to Russia, for whom Syria was a traditional locus of Soviet 
influence in the Middle East and then a last bastion of post-Soviet 
Russian influence. Syria was also touted by Moscow as an example of 
Russia's steadfastness as an ally, something US partners in the region 
were quick to echo when seeking commitments from Washington. Syria also 
served more pragmatic ends for Russia--it provided both an air base and 
a warm-water port, a showcase for Russian arms sales, and a proving 
ground for Russian commanders, many of whom subsequently fought in 
Ukraine. Despite Assad's fall, however, the new Syrian government and 
the Russian government have already held multiple high-level contacts, 
and Sharaa has expressed a certain pragmatism in approaching Moscow, 
noting the Syrian military equipment and energy facilities are Russian 
in origin. If Syria cannot obtain what it needs in the defense, energy, 
industrial, and other sectors from the West--or cannot do so at a 
competitive price--it may turn to Russia despite Moscow's past support 
for Assad.
    For Iran, Syria even more important than it was for Russia. 
Damascus was the closest thing that Tehran had to a state ally in the 
region, its other key partners all being nonstate actors. Syria 
provided strategic depth to Iranian efforts in Lebanon and the West 
Bank: a transshipment point, operations room, and source of revenue all 
in one. When the Syrian revolution erupted in 2011, Iran provided the 
Assad regime with the shock troops it needed to survive, in the form of 
Hezbollah fighters from Lebanon, militants and conscripts from Iraq, 
Afghanistan, and elsewhere, and even officers of the Islamic 
Revolutionary Guard Corps itself. The loss of the Assad regime is 
grievous for Iran's so-called ``forward defense'' model, interrupting 
the land and air bridge from Iran through Iraq and Syria into Lebanon 
and the West Bank. Without a compliant government in Damascus, Iran 
will be hard pressed to rebuild Hezbollah or liaise as it did before 
with Palestinian terrorist groups.
    It seems unlikely that any new Syrian government will want to 
replicate Assad's cozy relationship with Tehran. While Sharaa has 
called for normal relations with Tehran, this is in itself something of 
a rebuke, as it carries the implicit accusation that the prior 
arrangement disrespected Syrian sovereignty. More significantly, the 
Iranian embassy was ransacked during the storming of Damascus, and the 
new Syrian authorities have reportedly seized Iranian weapons bound for 
Hezbollah on more than one occasion. More likely than a close Syrian-
Iranian security relationship under HTS rule would be Iran seeking to 
capitalize on security and governance vacuums in Syria by working with 
non-state actors in poorly governed regions or in the Lebanese and 
Iraqi border regions where Iranian proxies are influential, or even 
seeking to use them to weaken or destabilize a fledgling Syrian 
government.
    While China has not been nearly as involved in Syria as either 
Russia or Iran, it may perceive economic and strategic opportunities in 
Syria--as it has in Iraq and Afghanistan--if the country seems to be 
stabilizing to the point where Chinese officials and businessmen could 
operate safely. China frequently used its Security Council veto to 
protect the Assad regime and reportedly engaged in intelligence 
cooperation with Syrian counterparts, but is likely not nearly as 
associated with the former government as are Russia or China in the 
minds of Syrians. While Beijing may be discomfited by HTS' past 
associations with Uyghur foreign fighters, it will not consider HTS' 
ideology an insurmountable obstacle to good relations, especially if it 
can crowd out Western influence in cultivating them.
                      considerations for us policy
    The fall of the Syrian regime is a vindication of a sustained, 
bipartisan US policy opposing Assad's continued rule and supporting his 
opponents. US sanctions undoubtedly helped to weaken Assad, as did 
American pressure on his key supporters--Iran, Hezbollah, and Russia. 
At the same time, American support for and partnership with Syrian 
opposition groups not only isolated the regime, but helped to suppress 
ISIS and other terrorist groups. Nevertheless, US policy must now 
inevitably shift in response to events and in order to ensure the 
advancement of American interests.

     Engagement with HTS. It is not the case, unfortunately, 
that simply because the Assad regime was an enemy of the United States 
that the new Syrian government will be a friend. Even if HTS maintains 
its opposition to international terrorism having accomplished its 
proximate goal of overthrowing Assad, it remains an Islamist movement 
with a record of intolerance, repression, and authoritarianism. How--
and if--it will work with other groups and factions in Syria and US 
partners in the region remains to be seen.
    In approaching HTS, the US should be patient, pragmatic, and 
interests-focused. This was the approach of the Trump administration in 
its first term toward HTS in Idlib, when then-Special Envoy Ambassador 
Jim Jeffrey held back-channel talks with Ahmed al-Sharaa. This 
pragmatism also characterized the initial approach the Biden 
administration took toward HTS and Sharaa, lifting the bounty on the 
latter but otherwise insisting that US policy would be based on HTS' 
actions, not its words.
    In our dealings with Sharaa and his government, the US should look 
for areas of common interest where HTS' intentions can be tested and 
trust can be built. These include sharing intelligence on border 
security, drug trafficking, terrorism, and the Iranian threat network, 
against which the new Syrian authorities have already reportedly been 
acting. When it comes to issues of Syrian governance, Washington should 
be patient and take our lead from Syrians themselves. While a Syria 
that is governed in an authoritarian or sectarian manner is unlikely to 
be stable, prosperous, or friendly to the West, the US should avoid 
seeking to impose our views regarding precisely what form of government 
Syria must have or how it should arrive at it. Likewise, it should be 
up to Syrians to decide how to balance backward-looking accountability 
for the many heinous crimes committed during a decade-plus of war 
against the need to move forward as a unified society.

     Sanctions. The highest-priority request of the new Syrian 
government has been for the US and the West to lift sanctions, and 
understandably so--Syria's economy and infrastructure have been 
devastated by war, causing the previously middle-income country to 
descend into wrack and ruin. The Biden administration provided modest 
initial sanctions relief, largely to support humanitarian relief and 
the provision of essential services in Syria. Yet extensive sanctions 
remain targeting both the Syrian government and HTS itself.
    Washington should adopt a phased and performance-based approach to 
relieving sanctions--as HTS and Syrian authorities demonstrate that the 
original grounds for the sanctions no longer apply, Congress and the 
Trump administration should consider waiving or lifting them. Sanctions 
that were intended primarily to isolate the Assad regime might be the 
first to be eased, whereas those prohibiting sensitive defense and 
related exports might remain in place for some time, for example.
    Just as importantly, however, the US approach to sanctions relief 
should be tied clearly to US interests rather than to any well-
intentioned efforts at political engineering. While Washington would be 
wise to use sanctions to incentivize the Syrian government to break 
from extremism, shun Iran, and govern inclusively, placing too many 
conditions on sanctions relief, especially those not clearly connected 
to US national security interests, risks alienating the new Syrian 
government and pushing them toward US rivals. Conversely ``Not Assad'' 
is an insufficient condition for sanctions relief, and moving too 
quickly would risk setting a precedent that extremist groups elsewhere 
might hope to emulate.

     Counter-terrorism. Sharaa has called the US presence in 
Syria ``illegal'' and has called for the US-partnered Syrian Democratic 
Forces (SDF) to dissolve, disarm, and integrate into the new Syrian 
military. At least superficially, Sharaa's apparent goal of a unified 
Syria under a single authority could well align with US interests; in 
the long run, the best way to prevent an ISIS resurgence or the 
establishment of terrorist safe havens is for Syria to be well and 
capably governed, to cultivate professional and effective security 
forces, and to eschew the use of terrorism as a policy tool. The US 
should support Syria's movement in this direction, for example by 
encouraging the SDF to reach appropriate understandings with any new 
government in Damascus whose legitimacy is internationally recognized. 
But in the meantime the US should continue to prioritize counter-
terrorism operations in order to prevent a resurgence of ISIS or 
related groups.

     Geopolitical Concerns. While the Assad regime's collapse 
has been followed by popular expectations that Syria's diplomatic 
alignment would shift, the reality is likely to be more complex. While 
the new Syrian government may, as noted above, have pragmatic reasons 
for good relations with Moscow and Beijing, it is important to US 
interests that Syria durably leave the orbit of Iran and its proxies.
    While Sharaa and HTS have reached out to Arab neighbors--many of 
whom were in the process of normalizing with Assad before he fled to 
Russia--their strongest regional relationship is with Turkey, whose 
influence in Syria is resented by Arab Gulf states in particular and 
which may yet harbor designs on portions of Syrian territory occupied 
by Turkish forces or proxies. The Arab states themselves, which regard 
political Islamism as nearly great a threat as they do Iran, are likely 
to be wary in their own engagement with Damascus. This has been 
demonstrated by the divergent approaches that Riyadh and Abu Dhabi have 
adopted toward Sharaa thus far, with the former offering aid and the 
latter holding back. For its part, Israel acted swiftly after Assad's 
fall to defend its interests, but Sharaa and other Syrian officials 
have suggested an openness toward better relations with Jerusalem.
    It is up to HTS to satisfy their neighbors that they pose no 
threat, but the US has an undeniable stake in the outcome. Assuming 
Damascus can assuage their concerns, Washington should encourage its 
Arab allies to partner closely with Syria in order to avoid a repeat of 
post-2003 Iraq, which was shunned by fellow Arab states and became easy 
pickings for Iran and other malign actors. For Washington, several 
priorities stand out:
    1) Ensuring that Syria never again becomes a conduit for Iranian 
power projection in the region, working as necessary with the Syrian 
government to this end;
    2) Limiting the security and defense relationship between Damascus, 
Moscow, and Beijing, while recognizing that, as elsewhere in the 
region, these relationships are likely to be cordial ones;
    3) Coordinating with Arab partners to present Damascus with common 
benchmarks for sanctions relief and economic and security partnership 
and Syria's eventual integration into regional security frameworks;
    4) Ensuring that Turkey respects Syrian sovereignty and does not 
seek to capitalize on this transitional period in ways that undermine 
the country's future stability or US interests;
    5) Brokering Israel-Syria non-aggression understandings that could 
lead to eventual peace and normalization, as well as working to improve 
Israel-Turkey relations to prevent the two US allies from increased 
friction; and
    6) Working closely with US partners in Europe--particularly 
France--and elsewhere to ensure a common Western approach to the Syrian 
transition.
                               conclusion
    The fall of the Assad regime in Syria is a watershed moment for the 
Middle East and could be a boon for US interests and those of our 
regional partners. In recent years the US has been torn between 
excessive intervention and exasperated neglect in our approach to the 
Middle East. The current situation in Syria calls for neither, but 
instead requires policymakers to recognize that vital American 
interests are implicated there, and advancing them will require 
patience, pragmatism, and US leadership.

    Senator Risch. Thank you very much.
    Now we will turn to Ms. Stroul. She is the director of 
research and Shelly and Michael Kassen senior fellow at the 
Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
    As mentioned, she co-chaired the Syria Study Group with Mr. 
Singh in 2019 before leaving the institute from 2021 through 
2023 to serve as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the 
Middle East, the Pentagon's top civilian official with 
responsibility for the region.
    Prior to joining the institute in 2018 she served for 5 
years as a senior professional staff member of this 
distinguished committee where she covered the Middle East, 
North Africa, and Turkey.
    Undoubtedly, you have some thoughts on this, and we would 
love to hear you, and welcome back.

 STATEMENT OF DANA STROUL, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AND SHELLY AND 
MICHAEL KASSEN SENIOR FELLOW, THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR 
                  EAST POLICY, WASHINGTON, DC

    Ms. Stroul. Thank you so much, Senator.
    Chairman Risch, Ranking Member Shaheen, members of the 
committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
    Five years ago, serving as a co-chair of the Syria Study 
Group alongside Mr. Singh, what we testified then was that 
Syria and a robust U.S. engagement in Syria is in the American 
national security interest, and we also said at the time that 
the drivers of conflict in Syria remained even though there was 
an assumption that the Assad regime had won, the drivers of 
conflict would leave Syria perpetually unstable, and I think 
those recommendations have borne out.
    The Assad regime had not won. We failed to understand how 
hollowed out his tenuous hold over Syria was. But the main 
point that I want to make here is that those drivers of 
conflict remain today, and if there is not a concise, 
coordinated effort to address those drivers of conflict, the 
risk is that Syria falls back into conflict, which is what 
happens in most post-conflict societies that have experienced 
this kind of deadly conflict for as long as the Syrian people 
have.
    The risks are too high and I think it is worth noting, 
again, both of you mentioned these in your opening statements, 
what the risks are because of how Syria under Assad served as a 
base from which terrorism and instability radiated across the 
region, affecting our national security as well as that of 
Europe and the Middle East.
    Under Assad, Syria had a nuclear weapons and a chemical 
weapons program. He emptied his prisons of violent Sunni 
extremists during the U.S. war in Iraq, which led to al-Qaeda 
in Iraq and an insurgency against U.S. forces.
    He used chemical weapons, which remain in the country 
today. Torture, barrel bombs, starvation, and other brutal 
measures against the Syrian people, sending millions of 
refugees fleeing for safety, which still affect the stability 
of our partners today.
    He granted Russia a naval base on the eastern 
Mediterranean, remained Iran's one strategic ally in the 
region, and allowed Hezbollah and various Iran backed groups to 
attack U.S. forces and Israel from within Syria.
    His regime produced and smuggled the narcotic Captagon on 
across the Middle East, and finally, his brutality and 
unwillingness to address the drivers of conflict in Syria made 
the seizure of Syrian territory by ISIS and al-Qaeda a reality.
    With Assad out and a new transitional government in, we 
have an opportunity to shape outcomes in Syria that protect 
American interests, specifically with respect to 
counterterrorism and counter Iran objectives.
    But events on the ground and international engagement with 
Ahmed al-Sharaa are outpacing U.S. policy. We must urgently 
update our approach to the post-Assad Syria.
    No surprise I am going to agree with a lot of what Mr. 
Singh said. I think a U.S. policy review must answer the 
following three questions.
    Engagement--what commitments does Washington seek from 
Damascus's new leaders?
    Sanctions--what actions are required in order to begin the 
process of providing expanded sanctions relief and lifting 
state level sanctions on Syria?
    And three is the U.S. military presence. What are the 
necessary conditions in order for the U.S. military to transfer 
its counterterrorism mission in northeast Syria without risking 
the reemergence of ISIS?
    We should engage the new government in Damascus and set out 
a series of benchmarks to assess whether Ahmed al-Sharaa, 
Syria's unelected president who grew out of al-Qaeda, is 
willing and able to govern in a manner that does not further 
destabilize Syria and the region or threaten American 
interests.
    Examples of benchmarks--appropriate counterterrorism action 
against ISIS, al-Qaeda, its affiliates, and Iran associated 
groups; limiting acts of violence outside the rule of law and 
enabling transitional justice and accountability; holding him 
accountable for the transition timeline he set out himself, 
including drafting a new constitution, ensuring equitable 
representation in governance and resource distribution, and 
recommitting to the 1974 disengagement agreement with Israel.
    Now, building on what Mr. Singh said about 
counterterrorism, there is no alternative to the U.S. military 
and its local partner, the SDF, for the defeat ISIS mission.
    The U.S. should reaffirm our commitment to maintaining U.S. 
forces in Syria lest all the gains against ISIS be squandered. 
We should also begin consultations and planning for the 
conditions under which we could transfer the military mission 
without breathing new life into ISIS.
    Though the Administration announced important exemptions to 
the assistance freeze for lifesaving humanitarian aid, 
nonhumanitarian aid is just as important.
    This committee has played a critical role for more than a 
decade in oversight of assistance to groups like the White 
Helmets, NGOs working at ISIS detention camps, stabilization 
programs in communities liberated from ISIS, and the 
documentation of war crimes.
    Cutting off programs that help communities recover after 
surviving the brutalities of either Assad's rule or ISIS 
without plans to transition funding or services to non-U.S. 
actors will exacerbate the drivers of conflict that will keep 
Syria unsafe.
    Moreover, the dismantling of USAID and anticipated 
reduction in State Department career personnel, the U.S. 
Government risks losing critical technical expertise in 
implementing U.S. programs and the delicate work of engaging 
post-conflict countries.
    The United States is safer if Syria is stable and can 
address threats rising from within its territory without 
outside intervention.
    In turn, a more resilient Syria promotes greater security 
across the Middle East, leading to more stable countries and 
prospects for widened economic and security cooperation with 
the United States.
    Finally, a Syria that is not destabilizing, attacking, or 
antagonizing its neighbors--Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and 
Turkey--is also in the U.S. national security interest.
    Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify today.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Stroul follows:]

                 Prepared Statement of Ms. Dana Stroul

    Chairman Risch, Ranking Member Shaheen, members of the committee, 
thank you for the opportunity to testify on the future of U.S. policy 
toward Syria. Five years ago, while serving as a co-chair of the Syria 
Study Group, I testified before this committee on the enduring 
importance of Syria for U.S. national security. Today, not only do 
developments in Syria remain critical for protecting Americans at home, 
but they also present real opportunities for the Syrian people, for the 
Middle East, and for the United States.
    In order to grasp the stakes for Middle East stability, and the 
safety of Americans, it is important to recall how Syria--under the 
rule of Bashar al-Assad--was long a base from which terrorism and 
instability radiated across the region and U.S. adversaries thrived.
    Under Assad's rule:

     Syria developed a covert nuclear weapons program, which 
was eliminated by Israel in 2007.

     Syria developed a chemical weapons program, which to date 
has not been entirely dismantled.

     Syria emptied its prisons of violent Sunni extremists 
during the second Gulf war, which began in 2003, and facilitated their 
movement to Iraq, leading to the establishment of al-Qaeda in Iraq and 
an insurgency against U.S. forces that killed and wounded thousands.

     The Assad regime used chemical weapons, torture, barrel 
bombs, starvation, and other brutal measures to suppress peaceful 
protests by Syrian citizens, sending millions of refugees fleeing for 
safety across the Middle East and into Europe.

     The Assad regime welcomed Russian and Iranian support, 
allowing both to gain access to the Mediterranean and use land routes 
to arm Lebanese Hezbollah and disperse increasingly sophisticated 
weapons across the region.

     Assad, as Iran's one strategic ally in the Middle East, 
allowed the use of Syrian territory by Hezbollah and various Iran-
backed militia groups to attack U.S. forces and Israel.

     The drivers of conflict related to the Assad regime's 
brutal rule facilitated the seizure of Syrian territory by the Islamic 
State (ISIS) and al-Qaeda affiliates. For years, ISIS has flourished 
most in Assad-regime-held areas.

     Assad-regime forces produced and smuggled the narcotic 
Captagon across the Middle East, utilizing criminal and terrorist 
networks.

    With Bashar al-Assad out and a new transitional government in 
Damascus, the United States has an opportunity to work with its allies 
and partners to shape outcomes in Syria that promote regional security 
and protect American interests, specifically with respect to 
counterterrorism and counter-Iran objectives. U.S. engagement toward 
the new Syrian leadership is fraught: its leaders grew out of al-Qaeda 
and many are designated as terrorists, while others espouse extremist 
views. But events on the ground and international engagement with the 
new leadership in Syria are outpacing U.S. policy. America must 
urgently update its approach to post-Assad Syria, and test the new 
Syrian leadership to determine the opportunities and risks associated 
with engagement. The United States retains significant levers of 
influence: military pressure against ISIS through its continued 
presence in northeast Syria; the U.S.-led sanctions architecture, the 
unlocking of which could facilitate meaningful economic recovery and 
reconstruction; U.S. diplomatic leadership and its unmatched ability to 
convene like-minded partners; and U.S. foreign and technical 
assistance.
    A U.S. policy review must address the following issues:

     Engagement. What actions and commitments does Washington 
seek from Damascus's new leaders in order to acknowledge the new 
government as the internationally recognized representative of Syria?

     Sanctions. What actions and commitments are required in 
order to begin the process of providing expanded sanctions relief and 
lifting state-level sanctions on Syria?

     U.S. military presence. What are the necessary conditions 
in order for the U.S. military to transfer its counterterrorism mission 
in northeast Syria without risking the reemergence of ISIS?

    Engagement. The self-appointed transitional president of Syria, 
Ahmed al-Sharaa, also known by his nom de guerre--Muhammad al-Jolani--
is moving quickly to signal his commitment to governing in an inclusive 
manner, disarming and integrating all armed groups, stabilizing Syria's 
economy, and reintegrating Syria into the international community. Al-
Sharaa emphasizes his commitment to not imposing strict Islamic law on 
Syria's religiously and ethnically diverse society, and to preventing 
both terrorist activity at home and Syria serving as a base for 
terrorist operations abroad. The challenge for the United States is 
determining if his nascent government is appropriately separated from 
its al-Qaeda/ISIS roots and both willing and able to counter terrorism, 
resist malign Iranian influence, and govern Syria in a manner that does 
not lead to further cycles of violence.
    While the United States has not yet determined if the new Damascus 
leaders' early moves meet benchmarks for support, an emerging coalition 
of U.S. allies and partners across the Middle East, Europe, and Turkey 
is moving quickly to engage him. These governments, however, are not 
coordinating messaging or expectations with each other or with America; 
the risk is that Damascus hears mixed messages and does not feel 
compelled to commit to any program of action that can prevent future 
instability and violence. It is noteworthy that while the United States 
has engaged Sharaa only at the assistant secretary level in December 
2024, the Qatari emir recently visited him in Damascus, and Sharaa' 
first trip abroad was to meet with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia 
followed by the president of Turkey. Al-Sharaa now has invitations to 
Paris and Berlin, and may attend the Egypt-hosted emergency summit on 
the Palestinians in late February.
    The United States should engage the new government in Damascus at 
the political level, and set out a series of benchmarks to assess 
whether Sharaa and his government are willing and able to govern Syria 
in a manner that does not further destabilize Syria or the region, or 
threaten American interests. Benchmarks include:

     Holding the government accountable for its own transition 
timeline of three to 5 years, including the national dialogue and 
drafting of a new constitution.

     Taking appropriate counterterrorism actions against ISIS/
al-Qaeda/affiliates and Iran-associated non-state groups. (Here, the 
new government's actions to counter Hezbollah-associated networks' 
operations on the Lebanon-Syria border is an encouraging early 
indicator.)

     Consolidating security control over formerly regime-held 
areas of Syria and demobilizing armed groups.

     Working to limit acts of retributive violence outside the 
rule of law, and enable transitional justice and accountability for all 
Syrians who suffered under the Assad regime.

     Ensuring equitable representation at the national and 
local levels in Syria's governance, and fair distribution of resources.

     Upholding commitments that ensure the security of U.S. 
allies, including recommitment to the 1974 disengagement agreement with 
Israel.

    Sanctions. Before Assad's ouster, U.S.-led sanctions only permitted 
humanitarian aid delivery to regime-held areas, otherwise blocking all 
economic engagement or reconstruction. In early January of this year, 
the United States issued General License 24 for a 6-month period to 
allow certain transactions with the Syrian government and personal 
remittances through the Syrian Central Bank. It also provided a waiver 
to the Foreign Assistance Act in order for America's partners to 
provide aid to Syria without the risk of violating U.S. sanctions. But 
the U.S. designation of Syria as a state sponsor of terrorism, and 
other state-level sanctions like the congressional Caesar sanctions, 
will reduce appetites for the kind of economic engagement necessary to 
effect real change in Syria. The United States should urgently initiate 
a thorough and deliberative process regarding the state-level terrorism 
designations on Syria and sanctions tied to the behavior of the Assad 
regime.
    In the short term, the United States can do more to ease Syria's 
economic recovery by getting out of the way: partners in Europe and the 
Middle East can fill in gaps and provide assistance even if America 
will not, as long as they are assured of not violating U.S. sanctions. 
U.N. technical experts, as well as international financial 
institutions, can also play a role in stabilizing Syria's economy and 
setting it on a path to recovery. This will require targeted sanctions 
relief and waivers, and a clearly communicated strategy. A process 
should be initiated soon to expand the waivers granted in General 
License 24.
    In the medium-to-long term, more expansive sanctions relief should 
be tied to the performance of the new government and its commitment to 
following through on its promising reform and stabilization agenda.
    U.S. military presence. About two thousand U.S. military personnel 
remain in northeast Syria under the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS. 
These forces are sustaining pressure on ISIS through unilateral and 
partnered military strikes, and supporting the Kurdish-majority Syrian 
Democratic Forces (SDF), who maintain custody of nearly nine thousand 
ISIS detainees and forty thousand ISIS-affiliated families in displaced 
persons camps. The U.S. partnership with the SDF is the main irritant 
with NATO ally Turkey, which considers the SDF part of the Turkey-based 
Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK)--an entity designated as a terrorist 
group by the United States, Turkey, and others. Ankara in turn opposes 
SDF ambitions to establish a semiautonomous region within Syria, on 
Turkey's border. The Turkish-backed Syrian National Army (SNA) is 
currently engaged in a military offensive against the SDF in northeast 
Syria.
    The new leadership in Damascus has stated its commitment to 
preventing Syria from being exploited for transnational terrorism, a 
willingness to take over security at the ISIS detention facilities and 
displaced persons camps, and an openness to absorbing the SDF into the 
new national Syrian security forces. But this is a significant 
undertaking that will require training, equipment, intelligence 
support, and time. In the near term, there is no viable, combat-
credible alternative to the United States and the SDF to take over the 
defeat-ISIS mission. Therefore, the U.S. should urgently initiate a 
political and military dialogue with key stakeholders on the timeline 
and conditions under which it could transfer the military mission, and 
underscore its commitment to maintaining U.S. forces in Syria for the 
short-to-medium term lest all the battlefield gains against ISIS be 
squandered.

     With the SDF, the United States needs to back its local 
partner while facilitating dialogue with the new government in 
Damascus. The SDF leadership has already acknowledged its commitment to 
a future within a unified Syria; the U.S. should support the SDF's 
leaders in seeking reasonable assurances to integrate into the new 
Syrian national forces and secure commitments for Syrian Kurdish 
representation in the central government along with a local-level role. 
The SDF should immediately take steps to separate its forces from non-
Syrian fighters like those from the PKK.

     With the Damascus government, the United States is already 
testing its commitment to countering terrorism by providing operational 
intelligence against ISIS threats. If the new government demonstrates 
will and capability for targeting ISIS and al-Qaeda threats within 
Syria, the United States should begin a multiyear process to transfer 
the on-the-ground mission and determine how it can still support 
counterterrorism activities without such a presence. This supporting 
role could include intelligence sharing, training, and the provision of 
limited kinds of equipment.

     With Turkey, the United States should initiate a political 
and military dialogue that takes stock of the Islamic State's ability 
to reconstitute in Syria, and formulates the conditions and timeline 
under which America could safely redeploy out of Syria. As part of this 
dialogue, the U.S. should seek commitments from Turkey to stop 
targeting the SDF and direct the SNA to cease attacking the SDF and 
terrorizing communities in the northeast: these actions are threatening 
hard-fought gains against ISIS.

     With Damascus and with Ankara, the U.S. must have credible 
assurances that ISIS detainees, as well as families in displaced 
persons camps, will be treated securely and humanely in accordance with 
international humanitarian law and the law of armed conflict. The U.S. 
should also reenergize efforts to repatriate Iraqi and third-country 
nationals from these facilities, so that the population is more 
manageable.

    U.S. foreign assistance freeze. Though the Trump administration 
announced exemptions to the assistance freeze for lifesaving 
humanitarian aid, the impact of this policy is harming U.S. interests 
in Syria and further destabilizing a fragile situation. Consider that 
before Assad's ouster 16.7 million Syrians required humanitarian 
assistance, the highest level inside the country since the civil war 
started in 2011. Before the freeze, the United States was the largest 
bilateral donor for Syria's humanitarian needs, providing $1.2 billion 
in 2024 and more than $18 billion since 2011.
    Non-humanitarian U.S. aid goes to Syrian civil society groups like 
the White Helmets, whose members conduct search-and-rescue missions and 
clear unexploded ordnance. At displaced persons camps in northeast 
Syria, American assistance supports water and sanitation services, and 
administrative management and security. The United States provides 
stabilization funds, separate from humanitarian aid, to communities 
liberated from ISIS in northeast Syria. This kind of support is 
critical to mitigate conditions that make communities vulnerable to 
violent extremist propaganda and actions. Another area of U.S. support 
currently frozen is funding for documentation of war crimes and crimes 
against humanity. For years, the United States has provided funding and 
training to preserve evidence of the Assad regime's crimes, which sent 
an important signal to Syrians suffering from Assad-regime brutality.
    This committee can encourage the State Department to prioritize 
Syria in the ninety-day review of all U.S. programs, and quickly make 
determinations as to which programs make America stronger, safer, and 
more prosperous based on the criteria articulated by Secretary of State 
Rubio. Put simply, cutting off programs that help communities recover 
after surviving the brutalities of either Assad's rule or the Islamic 
State--without plans to transition funding or continuity in services to 
non-U.S. actors--risks exacerbating drivers of conflict that could 
undermine stability in Syria and in the Middle East. The United States 
is safer if Syria is stable and can address threats rising from within 
its territory; a more resilient Syria promotes greater security across 
the Middle East, leading to more stable countries and prospects for 
widened economic and security cooperation with the United States. A 
Syria that is not destabilizing, attacking, or antagonizing its 
neighbors--Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and Turkey--is also in the 
U.S. national security interest.
    Beyond funding, the U.S. Government possesses deep technical 
expertise and knowledge in post-conflict stabilization and 
reconstruction. The first Trump administration produced a Stabilization 
Assistance Review (SAR) in 2018 calling for the selective use of 
taxpayer dollars and the expectation of burden sharing by partners. It 
also correctly identified stabilization as an inherently political 
endeavor, the goal of which is to ``create conditions where legitimate 
authorities and systems can manage conflict and prevent violence.'' The 
SAR identified the State Department as the lead agency for 
stabilization efforts--it has an entire bureau focused on conflict and 
stabilization policy--and the U.S. Agency for International Development 
(USAID) as the lead implementing agency. With the dismantling of USAID 
and the removal of most of its civil servants, the U.S. Government 
risks losing critical technical expertise in implementing U.S. programs 
and overseeing the distribution of U.S. funds to local groups.
    Blocking adversaries/working with partners. From 2015 until 
recently, a widely held assumption was that Russian and Iranian backing 
for the Assad regime was more decisive than any support offered to the 
opposition by the United States, Europe, or Arab governments. The U.S. 
has an opportunity to further undermine Russian and Iranian positions 
in the Middle East, building upon their failure to back Assad, which 
dealt a strategic blow, and the widespread resentment across Syria of 
their support for his brutal campaign against his own people.
    While the assumption of an unbreakable Damascus-Tehran-Moscow axis 
has been disproven, the networks that sustained this alliance remain 
intact, from commercial relationships, smuggling routes, and 
agricultural ties to remaining Soviet influence in Syria's armed forces 
and Iran's work to project soft power influence. Tehran and Moscow will 
look to these networks of influence as they seek to protect their own 
interests in post-Assad Syria, from retaining Russia's naval base on 
the Mediterranean to securing commercial contracts to Iran's land route 
for rearming Hezbollah. Russia and Iran are well positioned to play 
spoiler to Syria's recovery and reintegration into the international 
fold. Therefore, it will be critical for the United States to 
coordinate an approach to post-Assad Syria that can keep Europe, Arab 
governments, and Turkey aligned sufficiently to deny adversaries 
opportunities to play this spoiler role.
    Aligning with like-minded partners on Syria is imperative. Turkey, 
a NATO ally, maintains the closest ties to the new Damascus leadership 
and is positioned to shape the policies of Syria's leaders, but 
Washington should seek clarification from Ankara on its objectives in 
Syria considering its well-known support for Islamist and Muslim 
Brotherhood groups and movements across the Middle East. Even as Turkey 
maintains significant influence, it lacks the resources given its own 
fragile economy to fund Syria's recovery. Here, U.S. strategic partners 
in the Gulf are critical because of their strong economies and 
assistance pledges. Gulf leaders are already engaging the Sharaa 
government though without agreement on or articulation of a strategy or 
vision for Syria and its future role in the Middle East. The United 
States should be working to convene, organize, and align its partners 
in the region and outside--particularly in Europe--on metrics and 
indicators that Syria's post-Assad recovery is on a stable path, while 
also consistently raising problematic actions that can undermine 
progress.
    Conclusion. Five years ago, members of the bipartisan Syria Study 
Group argued that the threats posed by the conflict in Syria were 
sufficiently serious to merit a determined response from the United 
States. The report presciently argued that the Assad regime had not won 
the war, and the drivers of conflict in Syria remained. The final 
report argued that American engagement in Syria can lead to better 
outcomes for America, for Syria, for the Middle East, and for like-
minded allies and partners. The challenge then remains relevant and 
urgent today: development of a realistic strategy and application of an 
appropriate mix of U.S. tools, along with prioritization of Syria by 
high-level U.S. officials with their counterparts. Today's hearing is a 
critical step forward toward addressing these urgent goals.

    Senator Risch. Well, thank you to both of you.
    It is obvious we have the right people here to talk about 
this, and I think it is also obvious this is not a partisan 
issue, and I think we ought to all work together to get to a 
place on foreign policy as it relates to Syria and move forward 
with it and move forward with it quickly.
    As you have indicated, the door is ajar, but it is going to 
close on us if we do not take advantage of where we are.
    I have got a couple of questions I would like to get to. I 
do want to say one thing.
    Mr. Singh, you had referenced the fact that the interim 
government and its leader had not done very well in Idlib, and 
I have heard the same thing.
    But interestingly enough, I met and I think maybe the 
ranking member also met with maybe even the same group, but 
probably 25 or 30 people from Syria who all were interested in 
doing the right thing and building Syria back up again.
    And at the table there were Sunnis. There were Shi'a. There 
were Christians. There were Druze. There were Alawites. It was 
across the board.
    They were not at all interested in talking about their 
religious persuasion, and I asked them that question, and they 
pointed out, hey, in Syria we have been living together for 
centuries. You guys are new to this, OK. We have been living 
together for centuries, and we can go back to living again 
together if things are done right.
    So, again, the experience you referred to in Idlib is 
troubling. Nonetheless, I think the new leadership understands 
that we are looking for something different than that.
    If you do not have religious tolerance in this region, the 
country has got a big problem, and we all know that from the 
other things that happened.
    Well, let me tell you one of the things I am concerned 
about, and that is--you know, when you look at the map of 
Syria, I mean, it looks like a flat Rubik's cube because of the 
way that the country is divided up, and what we are talking 
about is mainly the governance of the western part of the 
country.
    And certainly that is important, and without that you are 
not going to have anything else. But I would like to hear your 
thoughts on how we thread the needle because we do have these 
other parts of the country that we are going to have to deal 
with.
    I guess my idea is we need to focus on this western part 
and continue to look at the others. But the first objective is 
if you do not get a handle on this you are not going to get a 
handle on the rest of the country.
    Mr. Singh, your thoughts?
    Mr. Singh. Well, thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    I think that is right. Look, obviously, in Syria, as you 
mentioned, the bulk of the population is in the west, and so 
that has been the focus of many things and is the focus right 
now of the new government.
    They came down from Idlib to the south and have, largely, 
taken over that sort of western strip of the country. And in 
the northeast, of course, you have Kurdish forces, you have 
some other forces, but you also have some pretty vast areas 
which are lightly inhabited, and ISIS actually has been able to 
use those areas to sort of regroup and conduct its activities.
    I would say that the question in my mind is, you know, HTS, 
which has maybe tens of thousands of fighters, has swept down 
from Idlib, maybe had more success than even they anticipated.
    It does not seem to me that they could actually right now 
assert their authority over the entire country. So they will 
need to reach understandings with groups in the other parts of 
Syria, and of course, the one that is of greatest interest to 
us are the Kurds and others in northeastern Syria with whom we 
work.
    I think that we can focus on what is happening in western 
Syria, deal with the government there, while also trying to 
encourage and maybe facilitate this process of coming together 
among these groups.
    You know, the new self-appointed president of Syria, Ahmed 
al-Sharaa, has asked these other groups to dissolve. The 
reality is, though, if they did not exist, I am not sure that 
HTS could come in and fill in for them.
    And so you have to have this kind of internal negotiation 
process. Ultimately, we want, in the long run, one authority in 
Syria, one authority in Damascus, that can exercise its control 
over the entire state.
    That is an ideal outcome from us, but it is going to happen 
in stages, and it is going to happen through these 
negotiations.
    Senator Risch. Well said.
    Ms. Stroul, your thoughts?
    Ms. Stroul. He has set out--Mr. al-Sharaa, the self-
appointed president of Syria--a series of benchmarks for 
himself in terms of reasserting control over Syria, and he is 
making some progress in these early days of this transitional 
government.
    He is working to disarm and integrate the non-HTS aligned 
armed groups. He is working on border security. In the past 
couple days many of us have been closely following the clashes 
on the Lebanon-Syria border.
    This is actually forces aligned with President al-Sharaa 
working on stopping residual Hezbollah trafficking networks 
from using that border area to rearm Hezbollah.
    So actually he is doing things that are in our interest, 
which is cutting down that weapons proliferation. I think we 
should watch very carefully what he is doing to reassert 
security control over the parts of Syria and set out our 
expectations for not seeing revenge violence, and that there 
should be local participation in governance as he reasserts 
control.
    And then the longer pole in the tent I agree with Mr. Singh 
is the SDF, and we obviously, because of our military presence 
and our commitments to them, because they have bled and died 
for what we share is an objective of making sure ISIS is 
enduringly defeated, we need to work to facilitate dialogue 
between the SDF and the Sharaa government in Damascus about how 
they eventually reintegrate into the fabric of the Syrian 
government.
    Senator Risch. Well said.
    You mentioned it, and the next round of questions I am 
going to ask a little bit about Lebanon because, again, it is a 
similar situation than what we have.
    There is opportunity there, we need to engage, and the 
relationship between these two countries is incredibly 
important. So we will talk about that next.
    But in the meantime, Senator Coons.
    Senator Coons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you both for your testimony today and for your 
service.
    As the Chairman and Ranking Member have both laid out, and 
as you have painted more detail, for more than a decade Syria 
has been a hotbed of extremism, a source of massive regional 
destabilization through migration, a base from which both Iran 
and Russia projected malign power, and today we have a narrow 
window of opportunity.
    It is critical that we get it right. No one should mourn 
the fall of the Assad regime of decades, but there is a lot of 
reconstruction and reconciliation to do. There are, roughly, 2 
million children out of the school system.
    Ninety percent of Syrians living in poverty. The medical 
system is in tatters. There are no real jobs or electricity or 
support.
    The agricultural fields are littered with unexploded 
ordnance and land mines, and entire towns lay almost completely 
in rubble.
    In these circumstances a small amount of support can go a 
long way to rebuilding homes, trust, and engagement, to work on 
demining, to provide food and water, and this outcome really is 
zero sum.
    If the al-Sharaa government continues to move in a 
direction that meets the strategic objectives the chairman laid 
out we should be willing to engage with them, both indirectly 
through U.N. and international NGOs and maybe ultimately 
directly by the United States, because if they do not get 
assistance from us and our Western partners, they will get it 
from Iran, from Russia, and from China, and ISIS will reemerge 
as a very real threat.
    But at the moment, because of the freeze in all U.S. 
foreign assistance, we are withholding exactly what the Syrian 
people need to see the American people engaging with them--
food, medicine, education.
    We have even pulled away in the first days of what I view 
as a disastrous foreign aid freeze, security from guarding ISIS 
prisoners at the Al-Hol prison, although that funding 
mercifully has been turned back on.
    So, Ms. Stroul, you know the stakes here better than 
anyone, certainly better than I do. What assistance should we 
be considering to provide in the interest of stability and 
security with this new Syrian state, and what are the risks if 
we do not provide some leadership in this area?
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for that question.
    First of all, I think this committee has played and should 
continue to play an incredibly important oversight role into 
all of the assistance, both the humanitarian and the 
nonhumanitarian assistance going into Syria.
    As a former staffer I can tell you we put USAID and the 
State Department through its paces, and I know you all are 
continuing to do that.
    My recommendation is that we encourage Secretary Rubio and 
the State Department to accelerate that 90 day review. All U.S. 
assistance should be subject to oversight and whether or not it 
is in line with U.S. priorities.
    But the nonhumanitarian aid going to Syria is as important 
for arresting those drivers of instability that could sink 
Syria back into conflict and again make it a proliferator of 
terrorism instability across the region.
    So in a post-conflict environment the most important thing 
is local security and law enforcement, then clearing out the 
unexploded ordnance, then getting communities back, lights on, 
services, kids in school.
    All of this requires nonhumanitarian aid, and it also 
requires coordination with others. What we know----
    Senator Coons. To be clear, if I could, Ms. Stroul, while 
there are waivers for humanitarian assistance, there is no 
funding flowing. In the last 48 hours I have spoken with the 
leaders of each of the major NGOs that implements humanitarian 
work around the world.
    Almost none of them--and 98 percent of the programs that we 
discussed under things like PEPFAR working to fight malaria or 
TB, to contain Ebola, demonstrably humanitarian, the money is 
not flowing yet because the aid freeze has not yet translated, 
largely, because the key people who need to turn the financial 
system back on and approve the reversal of the stop work orders 
are not there.
    So not just longer term development aid after some aid 
review, but the humanitarian relief is not flowing.
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for that clarification. I 
could not agree with you more. The loss of the career civil 
servants inside USAID, the threats of a reduction in the State 
Department staff--what we know about post-conflict societies is 
that reconstruction and stabilization are inherently political 
tasks.
    It is not something the U.S. military could do, which is 
why we need to get this funding turned back on.
    Senator Coons. Could I ask one more question, Mr. Chairman?
    I am alarmed by speculation that the Administration is 
considering a hasty withdrawal of our troops from Syria. I am 
concerned about the stability and the future of the SDF and of 
northeastern Syria.
    If both of you could briefly answer what are the risks of a 
hasty departure of the U.S. presence in northeastern Syria, 
particularly vis-a-vis our hard fought gains against ISIS, and 
who would fill that vacuum?
    Ms. Stroul. Mr. Singh.
    Ms. Stroul. The about 2,000 U.S. military forces are both 
supporting the SDF and keeping pressure on ISIS. They are still 
doing their own unilateral strikes, our U.S. military against 
ISIS. They are also supporting the SDF who maintain custody of 
nearly 9,000 ISIS fighters in detention facilities.
    ISIS is looking at them to replenish its ranks, and it is 
looking at the young children and families in the Al-Hol 
detention camp as ISIS 2.0.
    If we are not there to provide intelligence and support to 
the SDF and the SDF are being attacked both by the Syrian 
National Army--the SNA--and our NATO ally Turkey, they will 
prioritize focusing on their own communities, and they will 
take pressure off ISIS.
    ISIS will then have an opportunity to retake territory and 
not only terrorize people in Syria, but direct transnational 
terrorism abroad including against the United States.
    Senator Risch. Thank you, Senator Coons.
    And Ms. Stroul, I do not think you could have said it more 
clearly. I think most everyone who deals with this has a clear 
understanding of that. I do not share the immediate concerns 
you do about them pulling out of there. I think that there is 
an understanding of what would happen.
    Look, we have minimal troops there at 2,000--1,900, 
whatever it is--and their keeping 9,000 ISIS people in the 
prison is critical.
    So with that----
    Senator Coons. Glad to hear that, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Risch. Thank you.
    Senator Ricketts, you are up.
    Senator Ricketts. Great. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    As we see what is unfolding in Syria we know that the 
ramifications are from Putin's war in Russia. His 
miscalculation there is rippling through the system.
    We see it in Nagorno-Karabakh. We see it here in Syria, how 
he was not able to support the Assad regime. But we know in 
years past that Russia was critical to keeping Assad afloat and 
basically responsible for killing Syrians.
    And so with HTS victory, Russia has been set back on its 
heels, and we discussed or you mentioned, Mr. Singh, the 
Russian naval base Tartus. You have got the Latakia air base 
just outside of there.
    So Russia has got some key assets. I think they moved some 
equipment out of the Latakia area, but obviously, that was how 
they were doing their power projection, and they have had to 
really flee with their tails between their legs here.
    And the question is what will happen going forward here 
with regard to how will Russia engage. I mean, al-Sharaa has 
got to stabilize his country. He is seeking legitimacy both 
internationally and with his own people.
    How is this all going to play together with regard to the 
role of Russia? Will Russia be completely kicked out? 
Obviously, things like oil, grain, even military weapons is 
something that Syria is going to need.
    They have been getting that historically from Russia. But 
recently we have been reading reports that the Europeans have 
been in conversations with al-Sharaa about, again, lifting some 
of the sanctions, and one of the conditions being kicking the 
Russians, basically, out of their naval base and the air base.
    So what do you see as the role for us in this? Should we be 
making that a condition of lifting our sanctions as we look at 
this, that the Russians have to withdraw and what is the 
practicality of that?
    Can you just kind of give us an assessment of what you 
think we should be thinking about with regard to our sanctions 
and Russia's presence and the military presence in these naval 
bases?
    Mr. Singh. Sure. Thanks a lot, Senator.
    And look, you are right. I mean, Russia has had, even going 
back to Soviet times, a long standing relationship with Syria 
and with the Assad regime ever since Hafez al-Assad took over 
in 1970.
    Assad was Moscow's guy. He was also Tehran's guy. But you 
see where he ended up. He ended up in Moscow. That is how close 
that relationship was.
    At the same time, my sense of the Russians has always been 
that they kind of view Syria as their last bastion, as it were, 
of their influence in this region, and they are going to be 
loath to give that up. And we already see, as several of you 
have mentioned, a pretty sort of high tempo of engagement 
between Russia and this new transitional Syrian government.
    I worry, frankly, that it is a higher tempo than ours or 
the Europeans' or even the region's. The Russians are really 
going to Damascus, and the Syrians are coming to them. And part 
of that, I think, is due to the fact that you have this 
integration of sort of Russian stuff, as it were, into Syria. 
You have defense equipment, you have energy facilities, and so 
forth.
    And so, you know, if you have got this military equipment 
you have captured from the Assad regime, and it is Russian, 
well, you are going to have to turn to the Russians, perhaps, 
to service it, to update it, and so forth.
    We have to somehow kind of put a wedge into that, and so I 
think part of that is going to be carrot, and part of that is 
going to be stick. The carrot part is, obviously, we are going 
to through this kind of patient, pragmatic engagement and 
setting of benchmarks, which Ms. Stroul also talked about, hold 
out the prospect of Western cooperation.
    I do think it should be conditional, and I do think one of 
those conditions has to be, look----
    Senator Ricketts. If I could just interrupt you for a 
second.
    Mr. Singh. Yes.
    Senator Ricketts. When you say Western help you are also 
saying Western military aid----
    Mr. Singh. So we have----
    Senator Ricketts [continuing]. Like weapons and equipment? 
That sort of thing?
    Mr. Singh. We have sanctions preventing that now, and I 
think it is very--those will probably be some of the last we 
would want to consider lifting.
    But I think you have to hold out the prospect that there 
could be, under the right conditions, a much more robust 
relationship across the board, a security relationship 
including--security broadly defined.
    But if that is ever going to happen, they cannot also be 
hosting Russian forces. But I think that there is a stick side 
of it as well, which is where the sanctions come in, and you 
know, my own view is we need a phased and gradual withdrawal of 
those sanctions, and we need to see performance on this issue 
in addition to others.
    I would just say do not leave out of this conversation the 
Chinese because, you know, they supported Assad in other ways 
through the use of their veto, for example. They tend to be 
cautious about going into places that are in conflict.
    But if they perceive the situation as having changed, they 
will also see both the economic and strategic opportunity here. 
And I think that has to be on the list of conditions.
    Senator Ricketts. So I am running out of time here. But 
just briefly, what is the risk for al-Sharaa if he cuts a deal 
with the Russians?
    I mean, Russia was complicit with what Assad did--you know, 
the killing of their own people. Does he have a risk internally 
with his own people if he cuts a deal even if, say, he gets 
Assad extracted back to Syria? Does he have a risk there?
    Mr. Singh. I think there certainly is a risk. How he 
perceives that risk, how big a risk he perceives it compared 
to, say, the risk of dealing with Iran is hard to say.
    But certainly there are a lot of sore feelings about the 
way Russia conducted itself, bombing hospitals and schools and 
things like that in Syria.
    Senator Ricketts. Great. Thank you, Mr. Singh.
    Senator Risch. FYI for the committee, we heard the same 
thing from the Syrians, that the populace is not happy with 
either Iran or Russia, who conducted themselves very poorly in 
colluding with the Assad regime.
    So that is a good thing for us, for the people that are 
getting that understanding.
    So with that, Senator Duckworth.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I am going to start off with just a little bit of an 
opening statement.
    In the immediate aftermath of the Assad regime's fall, 
Syria faces a pivotal and fragile moment in its history that 
will not only determine the fate of its people for decades to 
come but will also hold immense consequence for the trajectory 
of its role on the global stage.
    This is a moment of cautious hope for Syrians and 
democracies around the world alike, a moment of opportunity for 
a democratic transition of power and of hope for the millions 
of displaced Syrians who wish to finally return home to safety.
    But instead of recognizing this opportunity for the U.S. to 
flex its muscle and showcase its strength, the U.S. is notably 
absent amid a dire need for a stabilizing force.
    Our adversaries, as we have already discussed today, Russia 
and Iran are closely watching, and they are eager to step in to 
fill the vacuum left behind by the United States.
    This is a dangerous consequence of President Trump's attack 
on U.S. foreign assistance and a clear reflection of his 
blatant disregard for the importance of U.S. global leadership 
and participation as a national security imperative.
    His attack on USAID will jeopardize the safety and well 
being of innocent people in Syria who rely on USAID for 
critical humanitarian assistance and leaves an already 
vulnerable state at a greater risk of malign influence.
    So no, we are not talking dollars wasted. There are direct 
investments in U.S. national security and a projection of U.S. 
strength through USAID's work.
    As the largest global donor in humanitarian aid and 
development, the U.S. plays a critical role in supporting the 
development of infrastructure that provides space for a 
democratic transition of power, which is only possible if Syria 
has the proper resources to strengthen its internal policies to 
build that future for themselves.
    An unstable Syria not only means more suffering for its 
people, it becomes a potential breeding ground for terrorism in 
the Middle East.
    Now more than ever the United States cannot abandon our 
commitment to the Syrian people, and I hope that all of my 
colleagues will agree that a stable Syria is clearly in our own 
national security interests.
    Every U.S. dollar spent on stabilization, importantly on 
humanitarian aid, is an investment that requires less funding 
down the line for security and fewer U.S. troops who have to be 
deployed in a way that puts their lives at risk, and we know 
that a dollar goes a very long way in Syria.
    We are hearing that Syrian hospitals are struggling and 
even closing during a time when the need and demand for medical 
resources is high due to the sudden cut in funding as 
lifesaving grants programs under USAID are now paused.
    One such hospital that relies on USAID funding is the Al-
Shifa hospital located in the majority Kurdish city of Afrin, 
Syria. This hospital serves as a critical area, given the 
native Kurdish population as well as internally displaced 
persons.
    Your 2019 report talked about energizing efforts to address 
the humanitarian crisis in Syria. Right now the money is not 
flowing. How do you assess the current freeze will impact our 
Kurdish partners in Syria and specifically regarding access to 
humanitarian assistance and medical care?
    I think, Mr. Singh, if you could talk about that, I would 
appreciate it.
    Mr. Singh. Well, thanks, Senator.
    So look, I think that my own view is we need to distinguish 
between sort of the dollars that are going in the programs 
themselves. We are not talking about huge chunks of money here.
    Senator Duckworth. No.
    Mr. Singh. And where the money comes from, whether it is 
from the United States or from, say, a regional partner, look, 
for the amount of money that we have spent yearly in Syria on 
USAID programs, for example, you could get one LIV golfer, I 
think.
    And so Saudi Arabia and other regional states could step 
forward and provide revenues. I think when you think about the 
U.S. contribution sanctions relief, for example, is going to be 
much more powerful for the Syrian economy than any infusion of 
U.S. taxpayer dollars.
    The mechanisms that we create that others can pay into, and 
some of the technical expertise we offer, I think, is, in a way 
much more powerful than the actual money.
    So I think there is a conversation you could have about 
where is this money going to come from. Is it going to come 
from the Saudis, Emiratis, who I think do need to bear some of 
the burden of stability in their own region, and they have been 
too reluctant to do that in the past.
    And then the question, for example, of sanctions relief, 
which could open up free markets to come in and help Syria.
    But again, I think that that has to happen under certain 
conditions, and I think that is the most powerful tool that we 
have.
    Senator Duckworth. I could not agree with you more on 
sanctions. I had a very long conversation with the Syrian 
American community leaders from Illinois this week on this very 
issue.
    Since you already addressed this, for both of you how do 
you perceive the current sanctions impede Syria's ability to 
obtain relief needed to rebuild and heal, and what would you 
recommend to members of this committee in revisiting those 
sanctions?
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for that question.
    There is no doubt that the state level sanctions on Syria, 
both Syria's designation as a state sponsor of terrorism and 
then legislation like the Caesar Act, are preventing both 
others from coming in to further stabilize and reconstruct 
Syria, are difficult for Syrians abroad to send remittances 
home, and are creating nervousness within the NGO community on 
how much they can engage.
    I think the General License 24 issued in early January was 
an important first step. Six months is not a lot of time to 
build confidence in the networks to expand that humanitarian 
aid.
    So number one, the sanctions, I think, are incredibly 
significant, and they are preventing the kind of money, 
funding, and contracting that will be necessary to stabilize 
Syria.
    I will agree with Mr. Singh. I do not think we should rush 
in and lift all the sanctions now. I think how we provide that 
relief should be performance based, and that is one of the main 
sources the United States has in terms of influencing the 
development of a more stable Syria and a more responsible 
governance.
    Senator Duckworth. Thank you.
    Senator Risch. Thank you.
    Well said, Ms. Stroul.
    The important thing here, I think, today or something that 
is noteworthy is how unanimous we are in thinking about what 
should be done and how we ought to go about it.
    Obviously, the devil is always in the details, but there is 
really unanimity here as far as how to proceed, and that is 
good. I think that as we go forward that the unanimity will be 
helpful.
    So with that, speaking of helpful, Senator Shaheen.
    Senator Shaheen. Well, thank you.
    And again, thank you both, and I think everyone has done a 
good job of pointing out the opportunities this presents to 
prevent Russia and Iran from coming back in and regaining a 
foothold in Syria.
    So I want to talk a little bit about the role of Turkey, 
because Turkey asserts that they could lead counter ISIS 
efforts in northeast Syria, that we do not need to back the 
Syrian Democratic Forces that are led by the Kurds.
    So how real is that, and how concerned should we be about 
Syria increasing their presence in a way that would actually 
result in conflict with the Kurds?
    Whoever.
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for that question.
    When ISIS first took over large swaths of Iraq and Syria, 
the U.S. military did look to Turkey, thinking through how we 
could dislodge ISIS from Syria, and there was no presentation 
of an immediate combat credible viable force of Turkish 
military that could be sent in.
    And if you look at what Turkey is doing right now, it is 
working through nonstate groups like the Syrian National Army--
the SNA--who is terrorizing local communities and committing 
terrible atrocities and human rights violations against the 
communities there. And because our local partner, the SDF, is 
now having to defend its forces and its communities from the 
SNA, there is less focus on ISIS, which gives ISIS more of an 
opportunity to reconstitute.
    Turkey is a NATO ally, and I do think we should be engaging 
very soon in a political and military dialogue with Turkey 
about what I think is a shared interest. Nobody wants to see 
ISIS reconstitute, and we should be looking at what the 
conditions are under which the U.S. military could at some 
point transition that mission.
    But there is no near term alternative or viable combat 
credible alternative to the U.S. military and the SDF right 
now, and part of that also is that Turkey does not have the 
forces to maintain custody of those 9,000 ISIS fighters in 
detention facilities.
    Senator Shaheen. And so what leverage have we got with 
Turkey in trying to engage them?
    Ms. Stroul. The U.S.-SDF relationship has been the main 
irritant in our relationship with Turkey, but they do have some 
legitimate concerns.
    Their concerns are that the SDF has absorbed non-Syrian 
Kurdish groups like the Turkish Kurdish PKK, which seeks to 
create a state or an autonomous area on Turkey's border and 
threaten Turkey. I think that is a legitimate concern.
    The PKK is designated as a terrorist organization by the 
United States. So we should have a conversation with Turkey 
about its security needs and requirements, and ultimately, the 
future of the SDF is within a unified Syria, and because of our 
relationship with the SDF and the leverage and influence we 
have because of our sanctions and what our proactive engagement 
could bring to the table with Damascus, which Damascus wants, 
we are positioned to play a key facilitator and mediation role.
    Turkey can also be a huge spoiler and undermine the hard 
fought gains against ISIS. So I think this will require 
hardnosed, tough diplomacy but acknowledgement of their 
legitimate security concerns.
    Senator Shaheen. And assuming the United States withdraws 
our military from Syria, how long will it take for ISIS to 
reconstitute itself in ways that threaten the United States?
    Ms. Stroul. Well, we have seen this before. We saw it in 
Afghanistan. When the United States withdrew hastily and 
without a plan, the local--the Afghan Security Forces that we 
worked to train collapsed, and the Taliban has reimposed brutal 
rule over Afghanistan.
    And we know that when ISIS has territory in Iraq and Syria 
it used it to inspire, direct, plan, and launch attacks from 
that territory, and ISIS has its army in waiting already in 
Syria.
    It is those 9,000 fighters in detention facilities, and it 
has the next generation of ISIS. It is the 40,000 ISIS 
affiliated families in a detention camp, and there is no plan 
right now to rapidly reduce either of those populations in a 
way that would not jeopardize our security.
    Senator Shaheen. Well, so let us talk about that a little 
bit, because one of the things--my understanding is that we 
have turned back on the foreign assistance that supports 
security at Al-Hol, but that we have not continued to support 
the other assistance that engages families that helps with the 
radicalization that is going on.
    And so how much of a concern is that? And I would say 
yesterday we had a chance to talk to General Kurilla, who is 
the head of Central Command, who indicated that there is a plan 
to reduce the number of people in the camps and how important 
is it going to be to ensure that the foreign assistance 
programs that are available for those camps are there if we are 
going to reduce the numbers?
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you for those questions.
    So we also know how this works because of our post-conflict 
experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, among many others even 
from Europe in the 1990s.
    So after deadly conflict, if communities do not understand 
what the plan is for them to remain safe, to be protected from 
the underlying drivers of conflict, to know that their kids 
will not step on unexploded ordnance, to know that they will 
have assistance in their homes and communities being rebuilt, 
that they will be able to purchase food, that they will have 
jobs, that their kids can go back to school, those communities 
remain perpetually vulnerable and weak, and that is exactly 
what ISIS wants, which is why the nonhumanitarian assistance 
should be turned back on, or/and we should be working with 
allies and partners who also share an interest in ISIS not 
reconstituting.
    I would agree with General Kurilla. One of the ways in 
which--what families want to know when they are leaving these 
camps is that wherever they go they are going to have those 
assurances.
    They want what we want, which is safety and a better future 
for their families and their kids. That requires funding, it 
requires leadership, and it requires assistance coordination 
with our partners and allies, and that is what I hope comes out 
of the Syria policy review that this Administration is 
conducting.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you.
    Senator Risch. Thank you, Senator Shaheen.
    Your reference--and I will get back to this in the next 
round of questions. But the relationship between the Turks and 
the Kurds cause us no end of grief there. Turkey is allegedly 
an ally of ours, sometimes--at best a recalcitrant ally, 
particularly when it comes to that relationship. We will 
explore that a little bit more.
    But right now I would like to recognize Senator Kaine.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you.
    And I will be brief because I am going to ask you about 
something I bet you have covered a whole lot while I was 
toggling between two other hearings and this one, but that is 
with respect to the sanctions, it sounds like there is a pretty 
good consensus here that we should not miss this opportunity to 
engage with the new Syrian government.
    If we are too slow in engaging, or too miserly in engaging, 
we run the risk of creating a vacuum that others will fill who 
are adversaries, and one of the keys to this is the sanctions--
Caesar sanctions that are currently in place.
    I should know the answer to this question, but I do not. To 
what extent can sanctions be--I think we all agree that they 
should be lifted in a phased way based on performance criteria, 
but to what extent can they be lifted by the Administration 
versus would there need to be congressional action to lift 
sanctions?
    Senator Risch. I can answer that. That will not take 
congressional action. When we passed the bill it was--as 
anything you passed the President will not sign it unless he 
has full authority to put them on and take them off. We are 
good there.
    Senator Kaine. My understanding, and correct me on this if 
I am wrong, is that that is the case for most of the sanctions 
but there may have been sanctions directed against individuals 
that the Administration could not waive and that would need 
congressional action. Is that right or not?
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for that question.
    If I could offer what I think the different layers of 
decisions are.
    First of all, what the executive branch can do now is think 
through more waivers or an expanded waiver beyond what it has 
done with General License 24, not necessarily to permanently 
lift sanctions but basically to get out of the way so that 
allies or partners that we would like to see engaging in Syria 
responsibly can do that.
    Number two, it is the state level sanctions that are 
preventing economic recovery and stabilization in Syria. One of 
the big ones is that under Assad, Syria was designated as a 
state sponsor of terrorism. That would require executive 
action.
    The Caesar Act has several criteria in it for the executive 
branch to determine if the government of Syria, then the Assad 
government, has met certain benchmarks in order to receive 
sanctions relief, and here I think there is clearly an active 
role for Members of Congress who were the initiators of this 
very important piece of legislation to engage about what their 
intent is for measured sanctions relief.
    Senator Kaine. Well, I hope that we might do something 
together as a committee to express an opinion to the 
Administration. It does seem like there is a lot of meeting of 
the minds on this side.
    Senator Risch. And I agree with that, Senator Kaine. I 
think that--the Administration has wide, wide authority here. 
Having said that, because of the Caesar legislation we passed 
and others, they are going to be looking for us, and I am going 
to be anxious to give them my--I already have given part of my 
input on this.
    So I think your inquiry is absolutely valid, but I do not 
think that is a problem. I really do not, but thank you for 
that.
    Senator Kaine. Yield back.
    Senator Risch. Thank you.
    Let us see. Senator McCormick.
    Senator McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 
to our speakers today.
    Michael, good to see you again after many years.
    This hearing comes at such a critical time for the Syrian 
people and to thousands of Syrian Americans living in 
Pennsylvania in the Lehigh Valley. I share your joy at the fall 
of the butcher of Syria.
    But even with Assad gone significant challenges, to state 
the obvious, remain and it was discussed today the new interim 
president in Damascus and many of his advisers are U.S. 
designated terrorists with longstanding links to al-Qaeda.
    We do not yet know whether this transition process underway 
will lead to a government that will protect all Syrians, and 
this process will matter a great deal, of course, to Israel's 
security and to America's security.
    So, Mr. Singh, I would like to start with you on the topic 
of counter terrorism. From the truck attack in New Orleans to 
the 2016 shooting of a Philadelphia police officer, Jesse 
Arnett, our nation has seen firsthand how terrorist groups like 
ISIS can use Syria as a safe haven and inspire acts of violence 
in the United States.
    How concerned are you about the enduring presence of ISIS 
in Syria, and what would take, and we have talked about some of 
this already, but what would take, if you were going to do the 
couple key points, from Syria reemerging as a sanctuary for 
global terrorist groups?
    Mr. Singh. Well, thanks a lot, Senator McCormick. It is 
great to see you up there.
    Look, I think one thing we can take away from not just the 
Syria situation but the past 18 months of war in the Middle 
East is as much as we may want to move on to other issues and 
other challenges, terrorism remains a top threat to U.S. 
national security and to the security of our allies, and we 
have to take it seriously.
    We cannot afford to sort of ease up on the pressure on 
groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS, which remain active and 
determined to attack us around the world.
    I mean, one of the--we have talked in this hearing about 
the break between HTS and some of these groups, and one of the 
reasons they broke apart was over this question of attacks 
globally against the West, where ISIS and al-Qaeda are 
determined to keep doing that.
    And those groups are active every day in Syria, and it is 
through the joint efforts of a lot of different actors who we 
have mentioned here today, the United States for sure.
    Also our local partners like the SDF. Also other forces in 
northern and southern Syria that prevent those actors from 
mounting terrorist attacks.
    I would say that it would not take a lot. If you have the 
opportunity because you have the absence of legitimate 
governing or security forces, if you have a thriving radical 
ideology and a system that is kind of nurturing that because--
you know, Senator you have served in war zones. You know that 
ideological piece is, in a way, just as important if not more 
so than the actual weapons and plots.
    If you have those pieces you could absolutely have a 
resurgence of ISIS, and they could absolutely direct attacks 
against the United States. We have to be vigilant against that.
    Senator McCormick. Thank you.
    Ms. Stroul, two quick questions that I hope you can respond 
to. The first is we talked a little bit--Michael, you talked 
about this a bit--of this phasing out of sanctions based on the 
performance of the new government.
    And if you were going to think about the sequencing of that 
what would be sort of the first milestone, and what would be 
the first set of sanctions that you would consider withdrawing?
    The second topic is repatriation of refugees. My wife and I 
and my kids had the chance a couple years ago to work in the 
camps in Jordan, where there is millions--as you know, millions 
of Syrian refugees that have been there for years and also have 
put a huge burden on the Jordanian government and economy.
    Is there any talk of repatriation? Has any of that started 
to happen? What has been the posture of the new government on 
that topic?
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for those questions.
    With respect to sanctions, the most significant sanctions 
are these state level sanctions, the state sponsor of terrorism 
designation on the Syrian central government, and then the 
Caesar sanctions. Those are--when you lift the state sponsor of 
terrorism it is a onetime shot.
    So my recommendation would be to work on successive 
expansions of the waivers and exemptions to facilitate 
stabilization and to facilitate allies, partners, and financial 
institutions like the IMF and World Bank, who will not want to 
run afoul of U.S. law and sanctions first.
    But because this is about terrorism, we need to test them 
on the criteria of these designations, and we are doing some of 
that now.
    There was a Washington Post article about some operational 
counterterrorism intelligence that the U.S. military has 
provided to the al-Sharaa government to go after ISIS cells. We 
should continue to test that premise.
    Senator McCormick. And the Hezbollah transition too you 
talked about, which is important. Yes.
    Ms. Stroul. I think they are doing the right thing, and we 
should test when operationally relevant what information we can 
provide to them to go after threats that threaten Syria, 
threaten our neighbors and partners in the region, and threaten 
our national security.
    And with respect to refugees, President al-Sharaa has made 
very clear that he would like Syrians to be able to return to 
their home, and we know that a lot of these refugees in Jordan 
and Lebanon and Iraq and Turkey would want to come home, and a 
lot of them are already testing the premise.
    So they are coming in for short periods of time to see what 
is happening in their home. Some of them are flying home from 
Europe.
    But they are going to need to be assured that if they are 
really going to go repatriate, that there is going to be 
services, the rubble is going to be cleared, Syrian currency is 
not going to crash. There will be jobs. There will be food.
    And this, again, comes back to the kinds of engagement that 
we can facilitate in order to address those underlying drivers 
of conflict.
    Senator McCormick. Very good. Thank you.
    Senator Shaheen [presiding]. Senator Van Hollen.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Senator Shaheen, and thank 
both of you for your testimony and sharing your expertise on 
these issues, and I am glad we are having this hearing on 
Syria, given the perilous moment we are in. Also a moment of 
opportunity.
    I really think this committee also has to have an emergency 
hearing on what is happening at the State Department with 
respect to foreign assistance and specifically the 
dismantlement of AID.
    I am really shocked we have not had a hearing yet. I am 
thankful to Senator Shaheen who organized an alternative 
hearing yesterday. We had four great witnesses. Unfortunately, 
none of our Republican colleagues were there to hear them.
    But we are facing a mountain of disinformation about AID 
from Elon Musk and others, and I would like, Senator Shaheen, 
to ask unanimous consent to put in the record a Washington Post 
fact checked article on claims being made about AID. It is 
entitled, ``The White House's wildly inaccurate claims about 
USAID spending.''
    Senator Shaheen. I am sure that is without objection.
    [Editor's note.--The information referred to above can be 
found in the ``Additional Material Submitted for the Record'' 
section at the end of this document.]
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you.
    So this does not even include the big lie that we heard 
from the White House podium about the $50 million worth of 
condoms to Gaza, which was just absolutely untrue. I think my 
colleagues should understand that Elon Musk called AID a, 
quote, ``criminal enterprise.''
    That makes at least the members who have served on this 
committee for a long time and those who have served in the 
Senate longer co-conspirators in a criminal enterprise because 
we authorize and appropriate funds for AID.
    And we all know that is not the case, but we really need as 
a committee on a bipartisan basis to stand up to Elon Musk. And 
it is outrageous that we have not done that yet, because he is 
doing great damage around the world.
    I think most agree that AID is an important part of our 
overall national and foreign policy, and I would just like to 
ask you, Ms. Stroul, with respect to Syria.
    Syria has had its assistance frozen. It appears we might 
get an exemption for some of the UNHCR refugee issues, which 
are obviously critical at this point in time.
    I think Senator Shaheen mentioned al-Hol prison camp that 
detains a lot of ISIS fighters. If they all get out Americans 
are in peril.
    So could you just speak briefly to how at this critical 
moment in Syria, which is also a moment of opportunity but also 
peril, this freeze on U.S. assistance is emboldening our 
adversaries and preventing the United States from really trying 
to seize this opportunity?
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for that question.
    First of all, so there are different layers to the, in my 
view, negative impact of the targeting of USAID.
    First of all, it is the dismantlement of the staff. So the 
staff in the headquarters possess tremendous technical 
expertise in how to distribute, conduct oversight, conduct 
audits, and how to do assistance in a unique, fragile, post-
conflict environment.
    Number two is that stop work order. So what is happening is 
USAID and longtime U.S. partners--as a former staffer of this 
committee we conducted rigorous oversight over how USAID 
partners on the ground, and there were many instances even when 
I was on the committee where here were concerns about a 
specific partner or a specific program, and we stopped those 
programs but we found ways to safely continue programs that we 
thought were in the interest of American security and good 
stewards of U.S. taxpayer dollars.
    But the stop work order and the firing of our implementing 
partners on the ground will dismantle the ecosystem around this 
very important work. Then there is the funding, which is not 
flowing.
    The humanitarian work is, obviously, critical immediately 
but over the long term we need to be helping societies and 
communities recover. They want more than a handout from 
humanitarian aid.
    And finally, it is the oversight. None of our partners 
possess the kind of technical expertise that we do in 
monitoring dollars and monitoring performance benchmarks for 
these programs, and we have seen in plenty of other scenarios 
when the funds of our partners have led to poor outcomes.
    So all of these different ways in which I think the freeze 
in USAID and the funding and the stop work order are very 
detrimental to our interests.
    And finally, there is the question of U.S. leadership. So 
when a community or an individual or a mother who needs formula 
for her child or a diaper or medicine is in need, and they see 
a U.S. flag or a stamp on that box, they think of the United 
States and know that we had a role in saving their lives, and 
then that feeds into positive views of the United States, and 
when we want to partner with that government or a community in 
the future, the door is more open. So we are closing doors that 
could impact our security and our interest for generations to 
come.
    Senator Van Hollen. Thank you.
    Thank you all.
    Senator Shaheen. Senator Rosen.
    Senator Rosen. OK. Well, thank you.
    Thank you, Senator McCormick.
    Thank you. I want to thank Chairman Risch, Ranking Member 
Shaheen, of course, for holding this hearing.
    Thank you for to our witnesses for your work, for 
testifying today.
    I also want to thank Senator Shaheen for highlighting the 
positive impact that USAID has around the world, the difference 
that we know we are making on the ground for so many--keeping 
children alive, feeding hungry people, preventing disease. So I 
want to just thank Senator Shaheen for that.
    And I want to move on and talk a little bit about 
empowering women in Syria because the U.S. does have an 
opportunity to play a critical role in supporting Syria's 
political transition following the fall of Assad's regime.
    So I believe we should be ready to use all the tools in our 
toolbox to push that transitional government to be inclusive, 
democratic, nonsectarian, and I am particularly interested in 
the role women can play in supporting the new Syria, and how 
the U.S. could and should help to facilitate this.
    So, Ms. Stroul, can you talk about the current role of 
women in Syria's new leadership and how the Administration 
could work with the transitional government to ensure that 
women are empowered to play a critical role in governance, 
peace building, reconstruction?
    Ms. Stroul. Thank you, Senator, for that question.
    And, of course, Ranking Member Shaheen must be acknowledged 
for her leadership and important work on women, peace, and 
security in this element.
    If only 50 percent of Syrian society is engaged in a 
conversation about the future of Syria, meaning the other 50 
percent, women, are not included, then you are not listening to 
half of your society and that will not lead to a stable 
outcome.
    Generally speaking, across most all post-conflict societies 
when transitional justice, reconstruction, and stabilization 
are critical, women have unique peace building roles, unique 
perspectives, tend to think more about the needs of their 
communities.
    If their voices and recommendations are not taken into 
account, which means that less than 50 percent of Syrian 
society would be involved in the decisionmaking and dialogue 
about the future of Syria, it will not be stable and inclusive 
over the long term.
    President al-Sharaa yesterday announced the committee that 
will be responsible for organizing and making recommendations 
for the national dialogue for Syria, that he announced in his 
transition timeline of 3 to 5 years, there are two women on a 
committee of seven.
    Good start. We should see more, and we should expect more. 
The main areas of leverage, of course, are that U.S. leadership 
can help facilitate Syria's entry back into the international 
community.
    We should demand that more women have a seat at that table, 
and of course, through either sanctions, waivers relief, and 
eventually lifting.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you.
    I want to move on and talk a little bit about Iran and the 
resurgence of Iran possibly with the fall of Assad's brutal 
dictatorship. It is going to have profound implications for 
Iran, which has supported Assad's regime since about 2011.
    So coupled with Hamas' defeat in Gaza, the decapitation of 
Hezbollah, the leadership there in Lebanon, Assad's collapse 
has left Tehran weaker, more isolated than it has been in 
decades, and I believe we cannot squander this opportunity.
    Iran must be kept out of Syria, denied the opportunity to 
terrorize our partners, allies in the region, and we also at 
the same time cannot allow our adversaries like China and 
Russia to swoop in and fill those gaps. We know they are 
waiting.
    Dr. Singh, in Syria, President Trump's aid freeze only 
serves to further Iran's malicious intent, right? And so the 
aid freeze stops the programs that directly address the 
instability, and which we know IRGC they thrive on instability, 
right?
    So, again, we know Iran wants to exploit the aid freeze for 
its own gain. So in your opinion how do you think it might do 
that, and what proactive steps should we be looking at to stop 
Iran from potentially doing that?
    Mr. Singh. Well, thanks a lot, Senator.
    I think you are right that where Iran sees a poorly 
governed or ungoverned space in the Middle East, it tries to 
fill that space, and it fills that space with its proxies, 
proxies sometimes that it creates out of whole cloth.
    You know, we have seen Iran, for example, in Syria import 
fighters from places like Afghanistan and Pakistan and so 
forth, and we do not want to see that happen again.
    And so I would say, look, as we think about how we are 
going to relate to this new government with all the tools of 
our power--diplomatically, intelligence sharing across the 
board, military--we need to set out areas of shared concern 
where we can try to engage pragmatically with this new 
government that is dominated by HTS, and this is certainly one 
of them.
    So I think--you know, Ms. Stroul mentioned before 
intelligence sharing, for example. I think this is an area 
where we can test them. Are they willing to work 
collaboratively with us on this area of shared concern?
    And if the answer is yes, we have just gained another new, 
powerful tool in our toolkit to counter Iran in the region.
    Senator Rosen. Thank you.
    I yield back.
    Senator Risch [presiding]. Thank you very much.
    Senator Shaheen, you had a follow up.
    Senator Shaheen. I do.
    I actually have a brief comment and then a follow up 
question, and I want to just point out, thank you for your 
comments, Ms. Stroul, relative to the importance of women being 
at the table, and to Senator Rosen for her question.
    And I think it is important to point out that the reason 
that makes a difference is because it does make a difference.
    It makes a difference in conflict resolution. We know that 
when women are at the table the negotiations are likely to last 
a third more--for 15 years or longer than if they are not at 
the table.
    So there is good data to show that this makes a difference, 
and I would argue that one of the reasons that we saw the fall 
happen so fast in Afghanistan is because women were excluded 
from that negotiating process. But that is another issue.
    I did want to get back--I know this is about Syria, but 
yesterday we heard some testimony about the impact in Lebanon, 
that like Syria, this is also an opportunity for us in Lebanon 
because there is a new government that is not affiliated with 
Hezbollah, and they have been resistant despite the pressure, 
and that the halt to many of our foreign assistance programs 
are having real implications in Lebanon for the ability of that 
new government to be able to maintain power.
    The failure to continue to support the Lebanese Armed 
Forces, which have been the one stable institution in the 
country, have real ramifications.
    So I do not know if either of you could speak to that and 
to the importance of addressing the issues in Lebanon as well.
    Mr. Singh. Look, so I think we have talked about the 
opportunity in Syria. There is an opportunity in Lebanon for 
sure because with Hezbollah decimated, you know, thanks to 
Israel, that kind of loosens their grip on that government, and 
taking advantage of that opportunity should be something that 
we want to do, and it is going to require tremendous investment 
of--you know, we are talking a lot about resources, but it is 
going to take time. It is going to take attention as well at a 
moment where we have lots of priorities around the world.
    So I was very happy to see Morgan Ortagus, the deputy 
special envoy for the Middle East, go there and spend some time 
there with the government, and she got, I think, quite positive 
reviews for the time that she spent there.
    That is a good first step, and I think what we really need 
to see is that kind of engagement, and it needs to be done in 
partnership with key allies, and that includes allies like 
France but also allies in the region.
    And when it comes down to it we are going to need to 
support these institutions--security institutions but also the 
other institutions of the state, and I would say we can do that 
collaboratively with our allies, and we are going to have to do 
that collaboratively with our allies going forward, otherwise 
we are going to lose that opportunity.
    Senator Shaheen. Well, I would agree, and I would also 
argue that it is going to cost us a lot less to do this now and 
when we have this opening than it would to fail and to see 
Hezbollah and our other adversaries come back not only in Syria 
but in Lebanon.
    Ms. Stroul. If I could add to what Mr. Singh said.
    The past several years of assistance we have actually 
approached it quite cautiously by the executive branch in 
consultation with Congress, which is that U.S. assistance has 
gone around the central government in Beirut only for 
humanitarian because Beirut port blast, collapsed economy--all 
of the reasons why we did not have confidence in the central 
government in Beirut.
    So our assistance actually adapted around that, and then we 
provided security assistance to the Lebanese Armed Forces.
    So the challenge now is, one, is the security aid to the 
Lebanese Armed Forces is halted at the exact moment when by the 
terms of the ceasefire with Israel they need to be deploying 
south and disarming Hezbollah.
    So we are asking them to take on a significant undertaking 
and putting nothing in it and telling them they need to do it 
anyway.
    Number two, humanitarian--that needs to flow, obviously, 
because the Lebanese people are suffering and have suffered for 
a very long time.
    And then, three, because we have not yet provided 
assistance through the government in Beirut, we have an 
opportunity to incentivize the kind of behavior we would like 
to see with this new leadership.
    We can also encourage the World Bank and the IMF, who have 
held off because of the lack of meaningful economic reform 
measures.
    So this is actually an example where we have used 
assistance effectively to say we are not going to support this 
bad behavior, and now we can use it as an incentive.
    Senator Shaheen. Thank you both.
    Mr. Singh. Senator, with your forbearance I just want to 
vehemently agree with the idea that a society that oppresses 
its women is not going to be a successful society.
    Senator Shaheen. I appreciate that. Thank you.
    Senator Risch. Thank you.
    Thank you to the witnesses.
    And you know, I raised the Lebanon issue when we started, 
and that is something we maybe ought to have a hearing on too, 
because it is just as important as this.
    I think it is a little less complicated but not very much 
less complicated. So that is the important thing.
    There has been--as far as your raising the issue of women 
being involved you, like I, have met with the diaspora here. 
There are some very competent and ready to engage women who are 
ready to do that.
    When we were in Munich this weekend, if we meet with these 
people you may want to raise that with them, and I think that 
would be important.
    A couple of things that were raised here during the hearing 
was USAID freeze. In fact, they even drug Elon Musk, I guess, 
through the ringer while I was not here.
    Look, everybody needs to stay calm. We are going to get 
through this, and one thing that we never talk about and should 
is we are going in debt a trillion dollars every hundred days, 
and it has got to stop.
    And yes, there is going to be some angst getting there but 
we will get there, and the things that are necessary for best 
interest of the United States will continue. I am convinced of 
that.
    But there are things--and I am not going to go through the 
list now so we do not start a fight--but there is money been 
spent that should not have been spent.
    So in any event, with that thank you to the witnesses. I 
think this was a very good hearing and very helpful to us. We 
do a lot of these, and very seldom do we see the kind of 
progress, I think, and unanimity that we have seen today.
    So with that, thanks to the witnesses for attending today, 
providing us with the benefit of your testimony. For the 
information of members, the record will remain open until the 
close of business tomorrow.
    We ask the witnesses to respond as promptly as possible 
with your responses. That will be very helpful to us. So thank 
you for that.
    And with that, the hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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