    [Senate Hearing 119-35]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                             S. Hrg. 119-35

                    HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING LEGISLATION

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                         COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                 MARCH 11, 2025

                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs

                    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                                   ______

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    59-776 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2026

                     SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                         Jerry Moran, Kansas, Chairman

    John Boozman, Arkansas               Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut, Ranking
    Bill Cassidy, Louisiana                Member
    Thom Tillis, North Carolina          Patty Murray, Washington
    Dan Sullivan, Alaska                 Bernard Sanders, Vermont
    Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee          Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii
    Kevin Cramer, North Dakota           Margaret Wood Hassan, New
    Tommy Tuberville, Alabama                Hampshire
    Jim Banks, Indiana                   Angus S. King, Jr., Maine
    Tim Sheehy, Montana                  Tammy Duckworth, Illinois
                                         Ruben Gallego, Arizona
                                         Elissa Slotkin, Michigan

                         David Shearman, Staff Director
                    Tony McClain, Democratic Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                 March 11, 2025

                                    SENATORS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Jerry Moran, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Kansas.............     1
    Hon. Richard Blumenthal, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from
      Connecticut....................................................     2
    Hon. Tommy Tuberville, U.S. Senator from Alabama.................    11
    Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii...................    12
    Hon. Bill Cassidy, U.S. Senator from Louisiana...................    14
    Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.......    15
    Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine.................    17
    Hon. Jim Banks, U.S. Senator from Indiana........................    19
    Hon. Ruben Gallego, U.S. Senator from Arizona....................    20
    Hon. Bernard Sanders, U.S. Senator from Vermont..................    23

                                   WITNESSES

                                    Panel I

    Mark R. Engelbaum, Assistant Secretary, Office of Human Resources
      and Administration/Operations, Security, and Preparedness, U.S.
      Department of Veterans Affairs accompanied by Al Montoya,
      Deputy Chief Operating Officer, Veterans Health Administration,
      U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs; Melissa Cohen, Acting
      Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight, Veterans
      Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs;
      Kenesha Britton, Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Field
      Operations, Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department
      of Veterans Affairs; and Kevin Friel, Executive Director,
      Pension and Fiduciary Service, Veterans Benefits
      Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs............     5

                                    Panel II

    Cole Lyle, Director, Veterans' Affairs and Rehabilitation
      Division, The American Legion..................................    28

    Ashlynne Haycock-Lohmann, Director, Government and Legislative
      Affairs, Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors..............    30

    Patrick Murray, Director, National Legislative Service, Veterans
      of Foreign Wars of the United States...........................    31

                                    APPENDIX

                                 Hearing Agenda

    List of Pending Bills............................................    47

                              Prepared Statements

    Mark R. Engelbaum, Assistant Secretary, Office of Human Resources
      and Administration/Operations, Security, and Preparedness, U.S.
      Department of Veterans Affairs.................................    51

                          Prepared Statements (cont.)

    Cole Lyle, Director, Veterans' Affairs and Rehabilitation
      Division, The American Legion..................................   103

    Ashlynne Haycock-Lohmann, Director, Government and Legislative
      Affairs, Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors..............   122

    Patrick Murray, Director, National Legislative Service, Veterans
      of Foreign Wars of the United States...........................   146

                           Submissions for the Record

    Senator Blumenthal:

      The New York Times article ``Chaos at the V.A.: Inside the DOGE
        Cuts Disrupting the Veterans Agency''........................   161

      Stakeholder statements; ``What the Veterans Community is
        Saying''.....................................................   170

      Joint Unions Opposing S. 124, ``Restore VA Accountability Act''   172

      National Fraternal Order of Police, Patrick Yoes, National
        President....................................................   174

    Senator Moran:

      The American Legion (TAL), Cole Lyle, Director, National
        Veterans Affairs and Rehabilitation Division.................   175

      Association of Mature American Citizens (AMAC) Action, Andrew
        J. Mangione Jr., Senior Vice President.......................   177

      Black Veterans Empowerment Council (BVEC), Inc., Shawn L.
        Deadwiler, Chairman of the Board and President...............   178

      Firearms Regulatory Accountability Coalition (FRAC), Inc.,
        Travis R. White, President and CEO...........................   179

      Gun Owners of America, Aidan Johnston, Director of Federal
        Affairs......................................................   180

      Military Order of the Purple Heart, Robert Olivarez Jr.,
        National Commander...........................................   182

      National Disability Rights Network (NDRN), Marlene Sallo,
        Executive Director...........................................   183

      National Rifle Association of America (NRA), John Commerford,
        Executive Director, NRA-ILA..................................   185

      National Shooting Sports Federation (NSSF), Lawrence G. Keane,
        Senior Vice President, Government and Public Affairs.........   186

      Turning Point Action...........................................   188

      Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, Nancy Springer,
        Associate Director...........................................   189

      Vietnam Veterans of America, Jack McManus, National President..   190

                            Questions for the Record

    Department of Veterans Affairs response to questions submitted
      by:

      Hon. Marsha Blackburn..........................................   193

      Hon. Angus S. King, Jr.........................................   194

                           Statements for the Record

    American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE), AFL-CIO......   199

    Gold Star Spouses of America, Inc................................   216

    Multi-Organizational statement...................................   222

    Paralyzed Veterans of America....................................   228

    Veterans Guardian VA Claim Consulting, LLC, William C. Taylor,
      LTC (Ret.), U.S. Army, Co-Founder, and Chief Operating Officer.   237

                    HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING LEGISLATION

                                  ----------

                            TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2025

                                           U.S. Senate,
                                Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:32 a.m., in
    Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Jerry Moran,
    Chairman of the Committee, presiding.

        Present: Senators Moran, Cassidy, Tuberville, Banks,
    Sheehy, Blumenthal, Sanders, Hirono, Hassan, King, and Gallego.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,
                   CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS

        Chairman Moran. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for your
    presence and welcome.
        We meet this morning to consider 15 pieces of legislation
    sponsored by Senators from both sides of the aisle. I am
    grateful to the sponsors of the bills on today's agenda for
    their work and our witnesses for being here to offer their
    perspectives on these proposals.
        Before turning to our agenda items I want to address the
    recent changes being considered at the VA in regard to
    workforce. I think the VA needs reform. The status quo is
    something this Committee spends its time trying to improve on.
    We had hearings with veteran organizations two weeks ago, last
    week, in regard to how do we make things work better. If the
    status quo were working, we would not have spent those two
    weeks hearing from VSOs and ways the VA needs to improve.
        This is not a political statement. I am just kind of
    outlining where I think we are.
        However, changes that affect VA policy and personnel must
    be thoughtful, transparent, carried out in close coordination
    with this Committee, with our colleagues and with stakeholders,
    including veterans and the VSOs who represent them here in
    Washington, DC.
        I am working on legislation that would require the VA's
    workforce planning to follow that model, because Congress must
    play a significant role in strategically shaping VA workforce
    decisions, to achieve the right outcomes for veterans and their
    families. I have personally conveyed this message to Secretary
    Collins. The Secretary has committed to me that he will testify
    before this Committee about his plans and how he intends to
    eliminate waste and inefficiency and refocus resources to
    improve delivery of health care and benefits to veterans, and I
    look forward to being able to schedule that hearing.
        That includes making certain that the VA remains well
    staffed by a quality workforce and that efforts to right-size
    that workforce are done in a responsible manner, and treat the
    men and women who entered public service to care for veterans,
    many of whom themselves are veterans, with respect and
    gratitude.
        Turning to today's agenda, these bills include legislation
    that I have introduced, the Veterans' ACCESS Act, the Restore
    VA Accountability Act, Love Lives On Act, and External Provider
    Scheduling Act. Together, these bills will build on bipartisan
    successes Congress has achieved in prior years to expand access
    to care and benefits for veterans and survivors, remove
    barriers to lifesaving mental health care, and root out poor
    performers to strengthen the VA's workforce. I look forward to
    hearing testimony on these and other bills on today's agenda.
        With that I yield to Senator Blumenthal, and I decided it
    sounded better to call him the Vice Chairman instead of Ranking
    Member. So I yield to the Vice Chairman of the Committee for
    his opening remarks.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,
             RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT

        Senator Blumenthal. Whatever my title, Mr. Chairman, I
    thank you, and thank you for having this hearing. Thank you to
    our witnesses today. Most of you are seasoned, experienced, and
    dedicated civil servants, and I respect you greatly for your
    service.
        But I want to be very blunt: you are not the ones we should
    be hearing from today. Seated at that dais should be Secretary
    Collins, and I have expressed this view to my colleague and
    friend, Chairman Moran, and I am glad to hear that he is in
    informal talks with Secretary Collins. But he should be where
    you are right now, so we can ask him about the chaos and
    confusion, the apparent malevolent, cruel, and callous actions
    that have been taken against the VA workforce, firing 2,400 VA
    employees already with dire impacts on veterans, 80,000
    additional VA employees that the Secretary plans to cut--he has
    affirmed it in recent interviews, but not to this Committee; he
    can talk to the press but not us--and how this effort will
    effectively roll back the PACT Act that we worked so hard on a
    bipartisan basis to pass. The PACT Act is a linchpin of modern-
    day protection of veterans, and even as we speak, veterans are
    asking questions about whether the benefits and care of the
    PACT Act will be available to them because of these drastic,
    draconian cuts.
        And, of course, the cancellation of hundreds of VA
    contracts, many of them central to patient safety. Ending the
    research grants that, in the past, have proved breakthrough
    advancements in care for veterans and for our general
    population, in cardiac care, in prosthetics, in all kinds of
    areas where the VA has been at the cutting edge of research
    through these grants.
        To respond to these kinds of really egregious actions, I
    will be introducing later this week the Putting Veterans First
    Act, and I invite my Republican colleagues as well as
    Democratic Senators to join in this action to protect veterans,
    protect veterans.
        Number one, rescind all firings, all of them, of veterans
    that have occurred so far, in any agency or branch of the
    Federal Government. Put them all back to work.
        Number two, all of the employees of the Veterans
    Administration, whether or not they are veterans, rescind their
    firing. Put them back to work.
        Number three, establish a standard for any kind of
    termination that occurs in the future, that is based on
    performance, not on political rhetoric or bumper slogan Musk
    declarations, or his algorithms, or AI formulas.
        Number four, make sure that veterans who have been offered
    this fork in the road, that they can terminate their decision
    to end their employment right up to the day that they would
    leave the government, because there is the vast potential for
    unfairness. And as to any veterans who may be terminated, at
    any point, give them an appeal process, an effective means of
    appealing any action as to them.
        Today's hearing would be welcome. There are some good
    pieces of legislation on the table. You will be commenting on
    them. I have read your testimony. But business as usual will
    not get it at this moment in our history. The VA is in crisis.
    It is literally a five-alarm fire for the VA. This legislation
    may be well-intentioned and may have good effects, but it
    constitutes rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic,
    literally. That analogy is often overused, but in this instance
    it applies perfectly. We are talking about rearranging chairs
    on the deck of a sinking ship, and it is not an iceberg that
    has been hit. It is a torpedo from Secretary Collins, Donald
    Trump, and Elon Musk that has hit the VA and is sinking it,
    purposely, relentlessly, dangerously for our veterans. And the
    effects are already apparent. I am going to ask, Mr. Chairman,
    that an article that appeared in The New York Times over the
    weekend be entered into the record.
        Chairman Moran. Without objection.

        [The article referred to appears on pages 161-169 of the
    Appendix.]

        Senator Blumenthal. This article is factual and hard-
    hitting. It is an account of the chaos and confusion at the VA,
    confirming our urgent cries to stop the bleeding. That is a
    quote from the VFW Commander in Chief--``Stop the Bleeding.''
    And I commend the VSOs for their leadership and their
    objections to what is happening at the VA, and I am going to
    ask, Mr. Chairman, that excerpts from their past testimony be
    entered into the record.
        Chairman Moran. Without objection.

        [The information referred to appears on pages 170-171 of
    the Appendix.]

        Senator Blumenthal. Veterans have been short-changed and
    systematically betrayed by these cruel cuts in staff and
    critical resources, resulting from the Trump-Musk-Collins anti-
    vet policies. It is intentional malevolence or benign neglect.
    Either way, we need to stop it, and that should be the purpose
    of our hearing today. It is the purpose of the legislation that
    I will introduce to stop the bleeding and sound the alarm and
    make sure that we preserve veterans' benefits and care, as they
    should be.
        I hope my colleagues will join me in using this hearing as
    an opportunity to sound the alarm. We cannot pretend that the
    bills before us meet the moment. The fact that this
    Administration is actively undermining and rolling back a
    number of our recent bipartisan accomplishments, canceling or
    proposing to cancel contracts critical to implementation of the
    Dole Act or the Deborah Sampson Act, or simply firing thousands
    of employees critical to the basic functioning of the
    Department, from schedulers who connect veterans to care in the
    community, to claims staff who process PACT Act claims, we
    cannot ignore the ongoing ship sinking right before us.
        And I will press for Secretary Collins to come before us
    and answer these questions so that veterans can hear from him,
    directly, and so that Members of our Committee are given the
    respect that we deserve. To the VSOs on the second panel, thank
    you for being here. I hope your testimony today not only takes
    into consideration the merits of this legislation but also the
    developments that are so deeply concerning.
        And I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to
    speak in advance of the testimony.
        Chairman Moran. I will now introduce the first panel.
    Testifying today from the Department of Veterans Affairs is
    Mark Engelbaum, the Assistant Secretary of the Office of Human
    Resources and Administration/Operations, Security, and
    Preparedness--there was a longer line than I realized in your
    title.
        He is accompanied by Al Montoya, the Deputy Chief Operating
    Officer of the Veterans Health Administration; Melissa Cohen,
    the Acting Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight at
    the Veterans Benefits Administration; Kenesha Britton, the
    Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Field Operations at the
    Veterans Benefits Administration; and Kevin Friel, the
    Executive Director of the Pension and Fiduciary Service at the
    Veterans Benefits Administration.
        Thank you all for being here this morning, and Mr.
    Engelbaum, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                                PANEL I

                                  ----------

    STATEMENT OF MARK R. ENGELBAUM, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, OFFICE OF
     HUMAN RESOURCES AND ADMINISTRATION/OPERATIONS, SECURITY, AND
     PREPAREDNESS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS ACCOMPANIED
    BY AL MONTOYA, DEPUTY CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, VETERANS HEALTH
     ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; MELISSA
    COHEN, ACTING DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY FOR POLICY AND OVERSIGHT,
     VETERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS
    AFFAIRS; KENESHA BRITTON, ASSISTANT DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY FOR
       FIELD OPERATIONS, VETERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION, U.S.
      DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; AND KEVIN FRIEL, EXECUTIVE
      DIRECTOR, PENSION AND FIDUCIARY SERVICE, VETERANS BENEFITS
          ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

        Mr. Engelbaum. Good morning, Chairman Moran, Vice Chairman
    Blumenthal, and other Members of the Committee. Thank you for
    inviting us here today to present our views on bills affecting
    VA's programs and veterans' benefits. As just mentioned,
    joining me today is Mr. Al Montoya, the Deputy Chief Operating
    Officer of Veterans Health Administration; Ms. Melissa Cohen,
    Acting Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight,
    Veterans Benefits Administration; Ms. Kenesha Britton,
    Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Field Operations, Veterans
    Benefits Administration; and Mr. Kevin Friel, Executive
    Director, Pension and Fiduciary Service, Veterans Benefits
    Administration.
        In general, VA offers support and is appreciative of much
    of the proposed legislation before us today and looks forward
    to working with the Committee to further refine and strengthen
    it.
        First, VA supports the Restore Accountability Act of 2025,
    subject to amendments and the availability of appropriations.
    The Department of Veterans Affairs Accountability and
    Whistleblower Protection Act of 2017 provided the VA with
    additional authorities to take disciplinary action against
    senior executives and to take adverse actions against certain
    VA employees.
        Chairman Moran. Mr. Engelbaum, would you pull the mic
    closer to your face?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Sorry. That explains why it was so close to
    me to begin with, so my apologies.
        Chairman Moran. It is a compliment. We want to hear what
    you have to say.
        Mr. Engelbaum. And I appreciate that, sir. Thank you.
        The Department of Veterans Affairs Accountability and
    Whistleblower Protection Act of 2017 provided VA with
    additional authorities to take disciplinary action against
    senior executives and to take adverse actions against certain
    VA employees. Unfortunately, the VA has faced significant legal
    challenges implementing the act, and we welcome the opportunity
    to address concerns with the Restore Accountability Act in
    order to mitigate litigation risk and ensure that the
    implementation issues of the 2000 Act do not resurface.
        VA strongly supports the Veterans' Assuring Critical Care
    Expansions to Support Servicemembers Act of 2025, or the ACCESS
    Act, as it is known. This is a critical piece of legislation
    designed to enhance access to essential health care services
    for our veterans, and it aligns directly with the Department's
    priorities. The bill would enhance VA's ability to provide
    timely and effective care and provide high quality VA care both
    in the community and in VA's direct care system.
        VA also appreciates the Committee's interest and focus on
    helping improve VA's scheduling systems. Most importantly, this
    bill puts veterans first.
        VA supports the draft External Provider Scheduling Program
    bill but has concerns with Improving Veteran Access to Care
    Act, and would appreciate the opportunity to work with the
    Committee to ensure that enacted legislation does not
    inadvertently impede the Department's ability to continue
    ongoing efforts to enhance our scheduling capabilities.
        VA also supports, with amendments and subject to the
    availability of appropriations, the Aviator Cancers Examination
    Study Act, also known as the ACES Act, the Representing VA with
    Accuracy Act, the Veterans Mental Health and Addiction Therapy
    Quality of Care Act, and the VetPAC Act of 2025, and Caring for
    Survivors Act of 2025.
        The VA looks forward to working with the Committee to amend
    these bills to ensure we are providing the best possible care
    and benefits to veterans, their families, caregivers, and
    survivors.
        The VA also supports the Second Amendment Protection Act,
    subject to the availability of appropriations, but recommends
    including language that would clearly exempt an individual
    deemed incompetent for purposes of the VA fiduciary program
    from being ``adjudicated as a mental defective,'' as defined by
    the Department of Justice. Without this clarification, veterans
    or survivors determined to need a fiduciary for VA purposes may
    face criminal liability when transferring, receiving, or
    possessing a firearm or ammunition.
        The VA also supports Ensuring VetSuccess on Campus, subject
    to the availability of appropriations, but it seeks amendment.
    VA would like to work with the Committee to update the bill to
    allow benefits counseling on campus to be provided by a VA
    employee, such as a public contact or outreach specialist
    rather than a vocational rehabilitation counselor.
        VA generally supports the Servicemembers and Veterans
    Empowerment and Support Act, or the SAVES Act of 2025, subject
    to the availability of appropriations. The SAVES Act is aligned
    in many ways with VA's substantial progress toward addressing
    military sexual trauma, providing support through advocacy, and
    developing targeted policies, procedures, and training
    initiatives. Nevertheless, as written, the proposed bill
    language is more limiting than the VA's current regulation,
    which applies the use of alternative evidence to personal
    assault. Additionally, there are several sections of the bill
    that are duplicative of VA's existing efforts in the MST space.
        We appreciate the Committee's leadership and would welcome
    the opportunity to collaborate on the bill.
        Lastly, VA is still reviewing potential impacts from the
    Love Lives On Act, Veteran Fraud Reimbursement Act, and the
    Veterans Claims Act of 2025, and is unable to provide views at
    this time.
        On behalf of the VA and the veterans we serve, thank you
    for your support, and thank you again for the opportunity to
    discuss legislation that will improve our service to our
    veterans, servicemembers, and their families. My colleagues and
    I would be pleased to answer any questions you or the other
    Members of the Committee may have on these vital legislative
    initiatives.
        Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Engelbaum appears on pages
    51-102 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Mr. Engelbaum, thank you for your
    statement, your testimony. Thanks for your presence.
        I want to talk a minute about your Love Lives On Act. I do
    not know whether you want to direct the answer to the person to
    answer it. I will ask this of you, Mr. Engelbaum, and you can
    decide who should answer.
        Current law prohibits surviving spouses to maintain certain
    benefits from VA and DoD if they remarry before the age of 55.
    However, in addressing this inequity, it has come to our
    attention that if a surviving spouse remarries before 55, it is
    on them, the spouse, to inform the VA so they can stop
    disbursing disability and indemnity compensation benefits to
    the survivor, and often it takes the VA months or years to
    actually stop the payments, resulting in a debt on the survivor
    that has to be paid back.
        Can you explain why this takes so long for the VA to fix
    this in your system, and why it is the survivor's fault that
    the VA is providing them with overpayments? And what outreach
    is the VA doing to inform survivors of current restrictions in
    the law if a survivor does choose to remarry before 55?
        [Pause.]
        It was not who I thought you would choose.
        Mr. Friel. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question, Senator.
    As stated, we do not have views yet on the act itself, but as
    far as the current and existing process, when we receive the
    notification from a spouse we create a claim that needs to be
    worked. And so it----
        Chairman Moran. Could you also pull the mic closer?
        Mr. Friel. Sorry. We create a claim that then needs to be
    worked, and it goes into our existing inventory. We are working
    on process improvement, so like a potential for automation of
    some of these claims as well as the ability to expedite some
    and make sure they move faster.
        But as of this point, it goes into the existing backlog and
    it gets worked in conjunction with all the other workload that
    comes in that we have responsibility for.
        Chairman Moran. Let me ask a follow up, a related question,
    at least. Several provisions of the original Love Lives On
    Act--and I know you are not prepared to testify about that
    act--but several provisions have already been signed into law
    in the last Congress with the passage of the Elizabeth Dole
    Act. What outreach has the VA done to inform survivors of the
    education benefits they are eligible for if they do remarry,
    and which office within the VA is responsible for conducting
    this outreach to survivors, in general, so that they are aware
    of their benefits and eligibility requirements?
        In other words, we made some changes in the law. Is anybody
    actively making certain that survivors, who remarry, know that
    they are now eligible for education benefits?
        Mr. Friel. Sir, I am not from the education. I do not know
    what they did as far as outreach. As far as within the DIC
    space, when they are awarded their benefit we provide them
    notification that if they remarry that they need to provide us
    information. We also provide them what other potential benefits
    they may be entitled to.
        Additionally, every eight years we will provide for a
    survivor who is under age 55, we will provide them a
    notification, whether or not to provide information, whether or
    not they remarried. And then if they have, we will take the
    action. If they have not, and they reply that they have not, we
    are good for the next eight years.
        Chairman Moran. Let me ask the question this way. Would it
    be true or untrue that after the passage of the Elizabeth Dole
    Act that survivors are receiving any additional information
    from the VA than they did before?
        Mr. Friel. Within my department, sir, I----
        Chairman Moran. How about within your department.
        Mr. Friel. Within my department, what we have in the
    Elizabeth Dole Act is more around the burial space, so we are
    not providing any additional information to survivors.
        Chairman Moran. Mr. Engelbaum, anybody else on your panel
    for that question? Ms. Britton?
        Ms. Britton. Yes, sir. Within the field of operations we do
    have a comprehensive outreach program that does include a
    survivors element. With those survivors' outreach events we do
    have benefit tables where they talk about education benefits as
    well as survivor benefits, and that does include those changes.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Mr. Engelbaum, I
    appreciate the VA's support of the ACCESS Act and the
    Department's suggestions for technical and clarifying changes
    that could make the bill stronger, better. Can you give me your
    commitment that the VA will provide technical assistance to my
    office following today's hearing?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, absolutely. We truly appreciate the
    offer to do that, and we will take you up on that.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Senator Blumenthal.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Engelbaum,
    can I count on you to support the protecting--Putting Veterans
    First Act?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I will be happy, once we see the
    legislation, to do a thorough review along with the Agency. And
    first and foremost, as the Secretary has stated, veterans
    always remain at the forefront of everything we do at the VA.
    It is why we exist, it is why we are here, and we will look
    forward to looking at that legislation,
        Senator Blumenthal. Okay, can you give me your reactions by
    the end of the week if I get you a draft?
        Mr. Engelbaum. I will definitely look at the draft, sir. I
    can't guarantee by the end of the week. We will definitely
    comment on that, sir, and return to you----
        Senator Blumenthal. You are aware that the Secretary has
    said that the VA is not making decisions to illegally fire--and
    I emphasize ``illegally fire''--thousands of staff and
    implement an ongoing hiring freeze without proper analyses. Do
    you have those written analyses? Can you provide them to us? We
    have asked for them. We have received no response.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, absolutely. In fact, I will offer
    today, we are in the process of doing a very thorough analysis,
    and Mr. Chairman, Vice Chairman, I will be happy to come, to
    personally come, and brief the Committee on our planning
    process.
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, we want the documents. We have
    asked for the documents. You must have documents, right?
        Mr. Englebaum. Yes. Senator, what is happening right now is
    that a lot of stuff and information has come out in the news
    with respect to a one-off, off of a news article, so for
    example, the VA's cutting 70,000----
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, I apologize for interrupting you,
    but my time is limited.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Yes sir.
        Senator Blumenthal. I am asking for the analysis, the
    documents, the metrics, the methodology. There is no apparent
    methodology or metrics. It is by the seat of your pants, and it
    is illegal. I want to make clear, by the way, I am in favor of
    improving the VA. Every organization can be improved. Making it
    better, to quote the Chairman, ``has to be a common
    objective.'' But not with a chainsaw. Not with a meat ax, with
    a scalpel. And I see no indication that there are written
    documents--because we have asked for them--or analyses or
    metrics or methodology. Can you confirm that you have them?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, very clearly, yes. What is
    happening, to be clear, the 70,000 or 80,000 figure you see is
    a planning factor. We have just commenced our actual analyses.
    We have an ongoing analysis that is going to take place over
    the next three to four months that is going to do a down to the
    microlevel examination of our entire structure, mission,
    management, across the board. That analysis is ongoing, and I
    reiterate, sir, I will be very happy to come and brief you in
    detail on what the VA is doing to make sure we refocus our
    priorities on taking care of our veterans and righting that
    ship, that you rightly said before, I would say is adrift.
        Senator Blumenthal. So, you fired 2,400 people without
    doing that analysis?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Sir, what happened is--and I cannot go into
    specific details because there is litigation--what happened is
    we released approximately 2,400 folks out of 40,000
    probationary employees----
        Senator Blumenthal. And you implemented a hiring freeze
    without any analysis?
        Mr. Engelbaum. In order to actually shape and prepare for
    what we need to do as an organization, we are preparing the way
    so that we can rightly reorganize and reform the Department as
    it needs to be done. We still continue to hire 300,000 critical
    positions that we have identified. They are on the books. We
    continue to do our mission and focus on taking veterans--taking
    care of our veterans every day.
        Senator Blumenthal. None of what you have said just now is
    a plan. None of it is an analysis, a methodology, a metric. And
    that is what we are asking you to do.
        Let me ask you, how many employees have been removed or
    resigned from the Office of General Counsel?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I will have to take that for the
    record. I do not have that number.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VA Response: As of April 8, 2025, records indicate that since January
     20, 2025, zero (0) employees have been removed and 12 have resigned
     from the Office of General Council.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Senator Blumenthal. You do not have that. How about from
    the Equal Employment Opportunity staff?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I do not have any specific
    breakdown by office of specific employees. What we do have----
        Senator Blumenthal. How many employees have been removed
    from work on human resources?
        Mr. Engelbaum. I do not have a specific breakdown by
    independent organizations, Senator.
        Senator Blumenthal. You have 600 to 800 exempted positions
    currently backlogged on OPM's list, correct?
        Mr. Engelbaum. I believe that is around 700 or so, sir,
    that is my understanding. I am not sure about that.
        Senator Blumenthal. And yet you are firing 2,400, and you
    have a plan--that is the word of the Secretary--to fire at
    least 80,000.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, as I mentioned before, we are in
    the middle of a planning process. We are going to follow the
    science. We are going to reform this agency to make sure that
    it is focused on taking care of our veterans. You yourself
    mentioned we take a look at it. We have 470,000 employees in
    the Department of Veterans Affairs. We have increased over
    80,000 in the last four years. We have increased our budget by
    85 percent. The PACT Act is really important, sir, we
    understand that, but----
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, you are going to decimate the
    PACT Act if you do not have the position filled for the people
    who process the claims. You are going to have inexcusable
    delays. You are engaged in indiscriminately decimating that
    workforce. I do not know why you needed the Restore Act if you
    are just willy-nilly firing people without a plan. Your
    approach seems to be fire them now, plan later.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Sir, despite the fact that we have increased
    by 80,000 and our budget has increased by 85,000, our inventory
    backlog has increased by over, from around 275,000 to over
    935,000. Our claims processing time has increased; our accuracy
    has decreased. So, we have hired about 48,000 employees for the
    PACT Act. Sitting here today, I cannot tell you exactly--and in
    some areas we do know where they went--we do not know where all
    these employees are. We need to restore, you are right,
    accountability. We need to make sure that the employees that we
    hire are doing the valuable mission that they have been hired
    to do, and part of that is putting them in those very areas
    that you mentioned.
        Senator Blumenthal. You have failed to provide this
    Committee the documents or analysis that we requested. You
    failed to do that analysis before you started firing people and
    freezing hiring and ending contracts, canceling them illegally.
    And I find that response unacceptable.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Thank you, sir.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Tuberville.

                         HON. TOMMY TUBERVILLE,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM ALABAMA

        Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for
    being here today. Largest health care system in the world. My
    God, what a job you all have got, right?
        You know, when I first got here, the first thing we did in
    this Committee, we rehired 4,000 people the Trump
    administration had fired because of costs. What did we do? We
    hired them back and gave them back pay.
        You know, this is about the veterans. I mean, this is not
    about the dang workers. Now, we cherish our workers. Same thing
    here. My job is to help people, and the same thing as yours.
        I am a proud co-sponsor of Chairman Moran's Restore VA
    Accountability Act. I mean, we have got to have good people.
    And I know it is hard to hire people. It is really hard. I have
    dealt with it all my life. But we have to take care of our
    veterans.
        We could pass a trillion-dollar bill today--a trillion
    dollars--and give to the VA. It would be gone in a matter of
    time, and it would not help anything. It is not about money. It
    is about the right efforts of doing the right thing for our
    veterans. I have got 500,000 veterans in my State of Alabama,
    and it is growing. And we have got good VAs. We have got some
    that are not so good.
        But thanks for trying to do this, but again, we have got to
    get good people in there, and I can understand what we are
    trying to do.
        The VA's inspector general recently highlighted several
    failures within the fiduciary programs such as millions of
    dollars of benefits being disbursed without oversight.
    Unfortunately, bad actors have found their way to take
    advantage of veterans, and we have to combat fraud. I do not
    understand why, with all this AI now, that we do not have
    companies that can come in and stop a lot of this fraud. Mr.
    Engelbaum, do you agree with that?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, Senator. I think one of the things that
    we are doing in our review is looking at what technology and
    what systems that we can actually put in place and actually
    reinvest to improve services to our veterans, to improve
    accountability. We are hampered by some of the systems that we
    have. In the limited time I have been with the VA, I have been
    talking to our employees and our folks about what they actually
    need to do the mission effectively. That is a big focus of what
    we need to do.
        We are not trying to recreate the past. We are trying to
    prepare for the future. And part of that is refocusing our
    efforts, as you just rightly said, on our veterans, getting the
    systems that we need, and getting our focus right on that
    mission.
        Senator Tuberville. Well, I would hope that we would look
    into a lot of these companies. I have had people come to me and
    say, ``Coach, we have a program right now that could save the
    VA $20 to $30 billion a month, but nobody will talk to us.'' We
    need to open up our eyes to this and talk to people that can
    help organize what the VA is doing and quit doing what we did
    50 years ago. I mean, this is the 21st century. My God, we have
    got to open our eyes.
        So I would hope that we would be more competent on looking
    at the things of the future. And again, anything that we can do
    to help our veterans.
        Are there ways that we can improve incompetency in
    determining the process of all this fraud that is coming in,
    that you have seen so far? And I know you have not been there
    long.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, sir, I can also, but very quickly from
    my perspective, absolutely. You know, it is about focus. It is
    about getting our organization focused on the mission,
    streamlining it, and making sure that we are laser-focused on
    what we need to do, on what systems we need to do, on the
    veterans.
        Look, I love the VA. I love our employees. I came out of
    retirement because I am passionate about serving our veterans
    and improving their veterans care. But we need to do better,
    and we can. When we talk about employees, this is a failure of
    us, as leaders, to make sure that we organize properly, we are
    focused, and then we drive the mission to accomplish what we
    set out to do.
        Kevin, did you have some comments on that?
        Mr. Friel. Yes, sir, as it relates to the incompetency
    decision. Part of what that IG report identified 311
    individuals who did not have the right coverage or the right
    oversight. That was because we did just that. We migrated from
    an old legacy system to VBMS, where we have more insight, we
    have better control of the data. And in that migration some of
    the records were lost because of bad data in the old system.
        We did review all 311 cases. We found no circumstances
    where anybody had been taken advantage of their funds had been
    misused or where there was any indication of fraud.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Engelbaum, if I send you
    the names of these companies that are calling me consistently,
    would you follow up on that, and in terms of fraud, trying to
    get us in the 21st century of this AI, that we should be using
    every day, especially in the VA?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Absolutely, sir. I would be happy to do
    that. Thank you.
        Senator Tuberville. Thank you.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Hirono.

                         HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII

        Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing.
    Of the number of bills that are on the agenda, three of them
    are mine, and I am glad to say that the VA is in support of two
    of them, with a request for more time for the third one. These
    are the Rep VA Act, the VetPAC Act, which VA supports, and the
    Veterans Fraud Reimbursement Act, which the VA says it needs
    more time to review, even though the VA did testify in support
    of this act in a House subcommittee.
        The thing is, Mr. Chairman, that we can have all of these
    bills, but if the VA does not have the manpower, does not have
    the personnel to implement the various bills that we pass, what
    are we doing here? So I share the Vice Chair's concerns about
    what is going on with the VA.
        Now, we know that Federal employees are being fired across
    the board, in every department, not just in VA. Thousands of
    Federal employees are being fired, 2,400 being fired from the
    VA.
        Mr. Engelbaum, were these initial firings based on any kind
    of an analysis of competence? Any performance analysis that led
    to the firing of 2,400 people from the VA?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I cannot talk to specifics on the
    actual analysis. One, as I mentioned earlier on, it is subject
    to litigation right now. And the second----
        Senator Hirono. Excuse me. You know, everybody knows that
    these firings were across the board, and of course it is going
    to lead to litigation. Do not use litigation as an excuse for
    coming to tell us that you cannot talk about it. These were
    across-the-board firings of people on probationary status. It
    impacted not just the VA--and, by the way, another 80,000-plus
    will be getting fired. Yes, those will lead to more litigation.
        President Trump issued something like 26 Executive orders
    on day one of his Administration. I would say that there are
    probably lawsuits filed as to every single one of these, as
    expected, because many of these EOs were totally illegal. But
    we have an Administration that does not give a rip about the
    rule of law. So do not come here and tell us that you cannot
    talk about what the basis of these firings were. I think the
    fact of the matter is that they were across the board.
        I do not know how the VA is supposed to do its job when, on
    the one hand, it is firing, by the time you are through, the
    Administration is through, some 80, 90, 85,000 people from the
    VA, and at the same time you are trying to hire some 300,000.
    So on the one hand you are letting go all these people, not
    based on any performance analysis, and on the other you are
    trying to hire 300,000 or so people. I mean, who would want to
    work for any of agencies with all this chaos going on?
        So, Mr. Chairman, much as I support the legislation that we
    have, I really wonder what is this exercise that we are
    undergoing here, where many of these bills, including the three
    that I introduced, all in a bipartisan way, and as I mentioned
    earlier, this is one of the few committees where we are able to
    get things done in a bipartisan way. So I would be very
    supportive, except that we have an Administration that does not
    seem to have its controls, its hands on the levers of control,
    because we have an Administration that is continuing to sow
    chaos, and litigation abounds. There are about 70 lawsuits that
    are ongoing and numerous judges are saying to the
    Administration, ``You can't do that,'' and we have to have
    hearings on whether or not this Administration intends to even
    follow court orders.
        So, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Cassidy.

                           HON. BILL CASSIDY,
                      U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA

        Senator Cassidy. Thank you all. First, on a lighter note,
    they give us a little biography of each of you, and Ms.
    Britton, I see that you write poetry. I do not know if I have
    ever had that in somebody's kind of brief bio, that they write
    poetry. So anyway, my mother is from South Carolina, and she
    wrote poetry, so I feel a little connection there. Thank you.
        You folks commented on our VetPAC Act. I will just say, as
    a member of the Senate, it has been very difficult sometimes to
    have an independent analysis of what is being done in the
    Veterans Administration. And Senator Hirono and I entered this
    as an imitation, if you will, of what MedPAC and MACPAC do,
    giving Congress a lot of insights into how Medicare and
    Medicaid work. So it is patterned after those.
        In your testimony, you say that the commission could impede
    the VA's ability to respond quickly to address veterans' needs
    if it is requesting information or conducting investigations
    while the VA is attempting to respond to a new problem. Can you
    give me an example of how--could you give me this information
    that would impact clinical care of a patient, of a veteran?
        Mr. Montoya. Yes, sir. Thanks so much for that question.
    And I think a great example of this would be our quadrennial
    review process that is going on right now, which really takes a
    look at all of our medical centers across the country and
    determines where----
        Senator Cassidy. Does the quadrennial review interrupt
    patient care?
        Mr. Montoya. It does not. It actually goes in conjunction
    with it, sir.
        Senator Cassidy. So the quadrennial review, of course, is
    every four years, but let me ask, it does not--what I just
    heard--it does not interrupt your capacity to address the
    veteran's health care need. So why would an ongoing review,
    looking at specific issues, such as MedPAC and MACPAC do,
    disrupt patient care? I do not follow your criticism, since you
    just gave me quadrennial review, which is more comprehensive
    and it does not interrupt.
        Mr. Montoya. Yes. So I think the bottom line is that we do
    support this, Senator, and I think----
        Senator Cassidy. Oh good, because I was under the
    impression that you thought that it might not.
        Mr. Montoya. Yes, we actually do support this bill. And so
    one of the things that we do have concerns on is that there is
    just a number of other initiatives that are overlapping with
    it, so we just wanted to make sure that that does not interfere
    at all.
        Senator Cassidy. And in our vision, at least, we would be
    including issues not included in the quadrennial review, for
    example, the training of health care providers, which is not in
    the quadrennial review.
        So I am glad you like it. Once you get the answer you want,
    you shut up. I yield.
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman Moran [Inaudible.]

                       HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE

        Senator Hassan. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to you and
    Senator Blumenthal for holding this hearing. A welcome to all
    of our witnesses. Mr. Engelbaum, thank you for testifying
    today. I have to give a shout-out to Al Montoya, who led the
    Manchester VA Center with distinction a few years back, and it
    is good to see you again, and I thank you for your work.
        Look, this hearing is about legislation, and I want to talk
    about some of the pending bills before us. But I, too, want to
    talk about some of the Trump administration's recent actions
    and how they have impacted the Manchester VA and I think the
    system in general. Because look, as you were discussing fraud,
    I could not help but say, but gee, the Trump administration
    fired the inspector general, who is the guy in charge of
    rooting out fraud, right, as they fired inspectors general
    across government. There are 2,400 arbitrary firings just
    because people were probationary employees at the VA, not
    because there was any analysis of the kind of work they did or
    why they were hired to do what they did.
        I talked to a doc from the Manchester VA yesterday morning,
    and you know what she had to do in the middle of a really
    chaotic week, in the Veterans Administration? She is a busy
    doctor. She had to send to Elon Musk a list of the things that
    she did that week. Talk about bureaucracy.
        So there are a lot of reasons we are concerned. I want to
    drill down on those with you, Mr. Engelbaum, and then I hope to
    get to a question about one piece of legislation.
        As you know, the PACT Act became law in 2022, and it
    greatly expanded eligibility for care and benefits for veterans
    who were exposed to toxins. Since it became law, more than
    200,000 veterans have enrolled for VA care under the PACT Act,
    and more than 2.3 million PACT Act-related benefit claims have
    been submitted.
        To serve these veterans, the VA hired more than 60,000 new
    employees to meet the increased demand for VA care and
    benefits. Since President Trump has taken office, though, the
    VA has fired 2,400 employees and now is planning to fire 80,000
    more. Not only does this contradict the clear intent of
    Congress, it really does a disservice to our veterans. When you
    fire VA employees, veterans suffer. If you fire front desk
    staff, veterans cannot schedule appointments. If you fire
    maintenance and support employees, hospitals and equipment do
    not get cleaned. If you fire Benefits Administration employees,
    claims get delayed.
        So Mr. Engelbaum, can you guarantee that if the VA fires
    thousands more employees, it will not take longer for veterans
    to get appointments and receive care?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, thank you. That is absolutely our
    objective.
        Senator Hassan. So can you guarantee it? Are you confident
    now that firing people with an arbitrary number out there, you
    are not going to impact their care?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Yes. Thank you, Senator Hassan. We do not
    have an arbitrary number, as I was trying to explain. There was
    a planning factor out there. We have a detailed, about a four-
    month process that we are undergoing in reviewing our complete
    structure, our organization, in order to do just what you are
    saying, to make sure that all our resources are focused on the
    veteran and their care.
        Senator Hassan. So I am going to hold you to this. You are
    now guaranteeing that after you fire tens of thousands of
    employees, it will not take longer for veterans to get
    appointments and receive care.
        Now let's go to, can you guarantee that if the VA fires
    thousands more employees, hospitals and equipment, all those
    things, the hospitals and equipment will remain clean and safe?
    Yes or no.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, what I am guaranteeing is a
    detailed, methodical look and review, a much-needed review of
    our structure to ensure that our manpower and resources are
    focused on our veterans and their care.
        Senator Hassan. So you are not going to guarantee that. Can
    you guarantee that if the VA fires thousands more employees,
    benefits claims will not be delayed?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Ma'am, I guarantee we are going to do a
    detailed, thoughtful review, and focus our efforts on improving
    our service to our veterans.
        Senator Hassan. But that is not a guarantee, because you do
    not know what is going to happen, but you are already naming
    the number of employees you are going to reduce.
        We are going to watch what you are doing, and I will echo
    Senator Blumenthal's request for the written plan, the metrics
    you are using, and the reasons you think that this kind of mass
    firing is going to result in improved efficiency.
        As you may know, New Hampshire does not have a full-service
    VA hospital. In 2023, then candidate Trump visited New
    Hampshire and promised a brand-new, state-of-the-art VA
    hospital for the Granite State, saying that we would no longer
    be without a full-service facility. Now it seems to me that if
    you are building a new full-service hospital, you are going to
    have to hire people to help provide new services.
        So is the VA going to hire contractors and employees to
    build and work in the new facility President Trump promised
    Granite Staters, or is the plan to cut resources and hope that
    we do not notice?
        Mr. Engelbaum. The plan, Senator, is to ensure that we
    focus all of our resources, as much as we can, on the direct
    care of our veterans. We have grown exponentially over the past
    decade or more. We have increased our budget immensely. But
    our----
        Senator Hassan. Right, because we are helping a lot more
    veterans, and we have to stretch to reach that goal, and there
    is work to be done. I am right with all my colleagues. This has
    been a bipartisan effort. We want the best care possible and
    the best services possible for our veterans. And we have work
    to do. We need to invest in new systems, which by the way, it
    has not always been easy to get bipartisan support throughout
    the Federal Government for doing that.
        But being arbitrary, and as the head of VFW said last week,
    using a meat cleaver instead of a scalpel is not the way to do
    this. So I am going to hold the President to his promise for a
    new, full-service VA center in New Hampshire, I am going to
    insist that it be properly staffed, and I am looking forward to
    seeing written documentation and an analysis that indicates
    that things will be better off after you take staffing back to
    2019 levels, in spite of the new people we are helping with
    PACT Act. I will be looking for that analysis, because right
    now it is not adding up.
        Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman Moran. Senator King.

                        HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,
                        U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE

        Senator King. I was struck when Senator Cassidy mentioned
    poetry. So I asked ChatGPT to write us a poem about the firings
    at the VA. Here is the poem, which I will provide for the
    record:

        ``In a land where the eagle proudly soared,
        where freedom's song was oft restored;
        a shadow crept across the plains,
        as whispers spoke of recent pains.

        The halls, once filled with earnest care,
        now echoed with a vacant air;
        for hands that healed and hearts that served,
        found futures tossed, their paths unnerved.

        The veterans, with stories deep,
        their guardians gone, their solace steep;
        they wondered if the promises made,
        were fading like the evening shade.

        Oh, what of honor, what of trust,
        when noble missions turn to dust;
        yet in the hearts where courage burns,
        the spirit of the warrior yearns.

        For though the times are harsh and cold,
        the tales of valor ever bold;
        remind us, both young and old,
        that some truths are worth more than gold.

        So raise a glass to those who have stood,
        in every field, through fire and blood;
        and may we find in days ahead,
        the wisdom to restore what has fled.''

        Pretty amazing, and I think it captures what is going on
    here.
        By the way, firing 80,000 people will reduce the VA budget
    by 1.2 percent. I think we ought to keep that in mind, because
    people think, well, we are cutting the budget, we are saving a
    lot of money, 1.2 percent. This is performance. This is not
    policy. And it is 80,000 people. The memo of March 4th says,
    ``Our initial objective is to return to our 2019 end
    strength.'' That is 83,000 people.
        So I just do not know how anybody with a straight face say
    that you are going to cut that many people and still provide
    the same level of services. It just does not compute.
        The second piece that I want to inquire about, and I will
    ask you this question, is what about these contracts? I saw the
    little video of the Secretary the other day, proudly saying we
    have eliminated 600 contracts and we are going to save all this
    money. I want to know what the contracts are, and we have been
    asking that for a week, and we are getting no answers.
        What are those 585 contracts for, because I fear that they
    are for mental health counselors, or radiology technicians, or
    maintenance? I mean, those contracts are for something. And it
    is an insult to this Committee and to the United States Senate
    that we have no transparency whatsoever on what these contracts
    are. So that is a pretty simple ask. Will you take that
    question back, Mr. Engelbaum?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, it would be my pleasure.
    Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of information on the
    specific contracts. That is handled under a different
    mechanism. But I will take that for record and take that back.
        Senator King. Well, somebody knows. And I do not expect you
    to know, but somebody knows what those contracts are because
    they made a decision to cut them, and I think that information
    should be shared with this Committee.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VA Response: Because this same question is pending as part of a QFR
     response and a separate letter response, we will provide the response
     to this due-out once it has been cleared to share through the (formal)
     QFR and letter channels.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        It is hard for me to understand what is going on here
    except a motivation to show that we are cutting the workforce
    for relatively small returns in terms of the overall budget of
    the agency. I think you [briefly turns to face Senator Hassan]
    used the term ``meat cleaver.'' The operative term is
    ``chainsaw.'' That is what that grinning guy is using is a
    chainsaw, instead of a thoughtful process.
        So I would like to see, as I think has already been
    requested, what the plan is for these 83,000 people. How are
    you going to approach that? Who is going to do it? What is the
    criteria? Because it is hard for me to believe. I understand,
    and you said we have grown, for sure. But seven new bills have
    been passed with regard to veterans' benefits since 2019, the
    biggest being the PACT Act, which require a lot of people to
    administer. So I just want to know how you are going to resolve
    those kinds of issues.
        I apologize, Mr. Chairman, for not speaking to these bills,
    but these people had the good luck to be here today. Thank you
    for your testimony, and we look forward to working with you on
    these bills. This is a very bipartisan Committee. The PACT Act
    passed by bipartisan majorities in both houses. So we want to
    work on those things. But we need some facts, and I, for one,
    believe that the Agency ought to be providing that information.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Thank you, Senator. And as I stated
    previously, it would be my pleasure to come and brief you and
    this entire Committee on our plan and the thoughtful review
    that we are undergoing right now, to get at what the ultimate
    number will be, and what we should look like in the future for
    success, to better serve our veterans.
        Senator King. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I will submit my
    poem for the record.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Banks.

                            HON. JIM BANKS,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM INDIANA

        Senator Banks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Engelbaum, is
    the VA too bureaucratic?
        Mr. Engelbaum. I think the Federal Government as a whole is
    the definition of bureaucracy.
        Senator Banks. There are obviously places where we can
    create efficiencies and deliver services to veterans better?
        Mr. Engelbaum. There absolutely are. There absolutely are,
    in any large organization, but especially--look, I came to the
    VA because I am dedicated to the mission of our veteran. But I
    know, and after speaking with a lot of folks, many of them--
    employees, veterans--there is a lot of bureaucracy there. We
    can do better. We will do better. We need to flatline our
    management. We need to flatline organizations. We need to
    streamline mission. We need systems that can do what we need
    them to do. There is so much work that we have to do. And as we
    have proven, more and more people, more and more money is not
    the answer. It is not saying that we will not put the money
    into people where we need them, but it is not the answer.
        Senator Banks. Yes, I agree. How would the Restore VA
    Accountability Act improve the VA workforce by giving
    supervisors more authority?
        Mr. Engelbaum. There is nothing more disheartening to our
    workers themselves than having substandard employees around
    them. There is nothing, as everybody knows, that brings down an
    organization more by having employees that do not do what they
    need to do, and you are unable to either remove them, take
    disciplinary action, or it becomes so painful that they
    continue to exist.
        What happens is we rely more and more heavily on our top
    performers, on our middle performers. And don't get me wrong--
    we have so many dedicated employees in the VA, so many people
    that have dedicated their lives to veterans, non-veterans,
    spouses, you name it. The vast majority are good, hard-working
    folks that want to do well. But we have those that do not. And
    there is nothing that destroys an organization more. And those
    employees, working next to them, know who they are.
        Senator Banks. So is it a morale issue?
        Mr. Engelbaum. It is a morale issue. It is a performance
    issue. It is a workload issue. And we want to make sure that we
    have due process. That is really, really important. But we
    cannot stymie leadership and management. And I always remind
    people, managers are part of that. They are employees too. We
    need to hold managers accountable. It is not an ``us versus
    them'' question. It is a matter of us, as a team, and
    everybody, at every level, has to be held accountable.
        Senator Banks. Mr. Montoya, Senator Moran has legislation
    on the agenda to improve community care providers' scheduling.
    And Senator Hassan has legislation to improve internal VHA
    scheduling. Can you talk about how those two work together and
    what improvements would veterans trying to get appointments see
    if both of those bills were enacted?
        Mr. Montoya. Yes. Thanks so much for the question, Senator.
    I think, you know, I reflect on my time as a medical center
    director at three different stations, as well as my most recent
    experience in the field. And where I see external provider
    scheduling working is that it reduces the amount of time that
    it takes for a veteran to get an appointment scheduled in the
    community.
        So, for example, without external provider scheduling, it
    takes roughly 30 minutes for a veteran to get scheduled in the
    community, whereas with EPS it is actually about 7 minutes for
    that to happen. So it allows our scheduling staff, our team, to
    be more efficient as they are looking at the scheduling grids,
    for other physicians in the community. So it really helps out,
    and the two work together in collaboration, to make sure that
    we are providing that care.
        Senator Banks. Great. I hope we can get both of them done.
        Mr. Friel, what problems are you having disciplining
    veteran benefits claim agents today without any new legal
    authority?
        Mr. Friel. Yes, Senator. Thank you for that question. One
    of the concerns we have is that, you know, we have all heard
    the claim sharks and all of that. Right now, the only authority
    we have is from the Office of General Counsel to send a cease-
    and-desist order. We have no other ramifications outside of
    that. You know, they just change their business model and come
    back as someone new. So the ability to be able to actually
    prosecute people and take action against people who are
    basically defrauding our veterans and misusing----
        Senator Banks [continuing]. Authority, other than a cease-
    and-desist letter?
        Mr. Friel. Cease and desist. Yes, sir.
        Senator Banks. Okay. What are the most common rules that
    claim agents or attorneys break?
        Mr. Friel. One of the major rules is that for an initial
    claim, there should not be any fees charged. And we have these
    agencies that go in and they promise veterans that we will help
    you get a good rating, and then they charge on the back end.
    You know, they take a part of the retroactive payment, they
    take part of what their change is over the course of a period
    of time, and they take money from our veterans, who are
    entitled to that because of their level of disability.
        Senator Banks. It seems really gross, and I hope we can do
    something to crack down on it. Thank you very much. I yield
    back.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Gallego.

                          HON. RUBEN GALLEGO,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA

        Senator Gallego. Well, in the spirit of Senator King I was
    actually trying to write a haiku, but I could not get to the
    last line. I will have to submit it for the record once I get
    there.
        But in the other area where Senator King was talking about,
    one of the programs that has been identified, something that is
    very personal to me, is the National Center for PTSD, which is
    the world's leading research and educational center on post-
    traumatic stress disorder. For us that have PTSD this is
    extremely important because we know that it is an evolving
    field of research that could also help not just us but also end
    up saving us money in the long run if we find better treatments
    for PTSD that are more effective, quicker, and also, in some
    regards, cheaper.
        But that is one of the contracts that was just terminated
    recently. And this is really to Mr. Montoya. The VA said that
    the terminations would not negatively affect veteran care,
    benefits, or services, and that they were identified through a
    deliberate, multilevel review.
        I am really concerned that these terminations will
    negatively impact veterans' care, specifically something like
    this. So can you explain what safeguards you have in place to
    make sure this will not happen, and how you will restore
    contracts that were incorrectly terminated? Because in my
    opinion, if it was identified through deliberative, multilevel
    review, I have no idea how someone could look at the National
    Center for PTSD, which other countries actually talk and try to
    get research from to help their veterans, how that came under
    the purview of being cut?
        Mr. Montoya. Yes, thank you so much for that question. I
    think this is one that is near and dear to my heart, as I was
    up in Vermont, and they do have the National Center for PTSD.
    And I think there is a very deliberative process in looking at
    the contract review to make sure that there is not any ill will
    that occurs to our veterans.
        There is also a process for us to reverse those, as has
    been done in many, many cases. So I would be happy to look at
    that particular contract that you are asking about and see what
    it entails.
        Senator Gallego. And then another contract that was listed
    for cancellation was the VA's PACT Act Enterprise Management
    Office, which supports the VA's ability to carry out the
    benefits and health care delivery promised under the bipartisan
    PACT Act, again, something very personal to me. I lived next to
    a burn pit for almost a month. The men that I served with, some
    of them have died, unfortunately, from toxic exposure, some of
    them from very rare cancers, at young ages. So I am very
    concerned that some of these reductions, while we are trying to
    finally help these men and women, are actually going to be
    impacted and actually we are going to be sliding backward.
        Since the bill was signed, nearly 60,000 veterans in
    Arizona have filed claims.
        Can you, Mr. Engelbaum, can you please explain how the
    cancellation of this contract will not impact those
    beneficiaries who qualify for the PACT Act benefits and health
    care? And there are still more men and women that actually are
    jumping onto this, because we want them to actually get their
    services and disability ratings because of the PACT Act.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, Senator. Unfortunately, I cannot
    address that specific contract. I am happy to take that back.
    You know, as I just stated, one of the things was, it is not
    that we would stop doing something. So I do not know, for
    example, the analysis, do we have a contractor doing something
    for us that we could do internally? There are different things
    that went into, I think, some of the deliberations. But
    notwithstanding, as mentioned, we are committed to taking care
    of our veterans. If we did not get it right, we will definitely
    take a relook at it, and we will tap the focus on our veteran.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VA Response: Two contracts providing administrative support to the PACT
     Act Enterprise Program Management Office (EPMO) were terminated. This
     will not impact PACT Act benefits for Veterans, their families,
     caregivers, and survivors.

    The PACT Act EPMO was a 3-year term organization aimed at integrating
     systems, resources, and policies within the VA to implement the PACT
     Act. As we approach its conclusion in August 2025, essential
     requirements have been integrated, with other aspects still being
     operationalized. The EPMO will phase out in August, and designated
     business owners will fully assume responsibility for their respective
     efforts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Senator Gallego. My concern, again, is that we are
    treating, I think, the VA much like we treat other parts of the
    government, where there needs to be certain sensitivities.
    Right now I am hearing reports of men and women having to do
    their treatments and their PTSD therapy in cubicles, open-air
    cubicles, where essentially some of the therapists are told to
    get white noise and put ambient music in the background, while,
    obviously, next door someone could be listening to these
    veterans going through their therapy sessions.
        As someone who has done PTSD therapy, you have to expose
    yourself. You have to really let yourself go in order for you
    to start real therapy. It is not going to be a really good
    environment when these men and women feel like they are not
    going to have a safe and secure environment to actually talk
    about what happened to them, what they are feeling, or anything
    else like that, if they are being forced to speak in this open-
    air cubicle. And this is part of the problem when you force
    people back to the office but there is not enough space for
    these men.
        Do you understand, or have you heard of this problem,
    because I am actually hearing about this across the country
    now.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, if there are any specific issues, I
    am happy to look at them, as far as our veterans' care. As far
    as back to the office, we do have a detailed plan in place. We
    are making sure, so for example, that there are extensions
    right now, pretty much a question if people do not have the
    space to put people back. What we do know is that our clinical
    providers have been showing up day in and day out, for years.
    But mostly the support staff, the administration, they have not
    been. There are some jobs that lend themselves to actually
    being remote and we can better support, but the vast majority,
    we work better together. We work better together. We
    collaborate. We are part of a team. You develop esprit, just
    like in the Army or wherever you were at. You are part of
    something. You are part of a mission.
        So we firmly believe that we are more effective, more
    efficient, and better, for the most part, when we work together
    and we call people back in. Like I said, our providers are
    there on the front lines every day. We owe it to them to be
    there to support them, as well.
        Senator Gallego. Without a doubt. I just worry about the
    situation where you are putting some of these men and women in
    a compromised situation, because we are trying to overall
    create a policy that might have some merit to it, but then is
    creating this system where, again, it is not conducive to PTSD
    therapy.
        Mr. Engelbaum. We will definitely take that into
    consideration, Senator. Thank you.
        Senator Gallego. I yield back, Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Sanders.

                         HON. BERNARD SANDERS,
                       U.S. SENATOR FROM VERMONT

        Senator Sanders. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all
    for being here today. Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that in
    the fourth quarter of 2024, there were over 30,000 vacancies at
    the VA, including 3,400 schedulers, 1,200 custodians, 1,800
    social workers, 2,400 doctors, 6,300 registered nurses. I heard
    Mr. Engelbaum say, appropriately enough, that he wanted to do a
    detailed and thoughtful review of the whole process.
        Do you think arbitrarily laying off 2,500 workers and
    planning to lay off another 83,000 is a detailed and thoughtful
    review?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, thank you. As mentioned, the
    initial thing that hit the news about the planning factor is to
    lead and to force people to make hard decisions and
    recommendations. We are in the process. I will come and brief
    the Committee, sir, at your disposal, on how we are doing that
    over the next three to four months, and what we are going to
    review to make sure that we tailor the mission and the people.
        Senator Sanders. But if we already have--and I should tell
    you, and I think Mr. Montoya knows it. He is familiar with our
    part of the world.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, sir.
        Senator Sanders. In White River Junction, we have a very
    well-functioning VA. I go around the state a lot. I talk to
    veterans, and they are very proud of what is going on there. I
    do not think any veteran in this country thinks that it makes
    sense, at a time when we already have a significant shortage of
    workers, to arbitrarily lay off 2,500 and threaten to lay off
    another 83,000.
        Now, Mr. Chairman, as I think you are aware--Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. Chairman? The VFW, Veterans of Foreign Wars, just stated
    the other day, and I quote part of what their statement was,
    ``We now call upon VA to reconsider its planned reduction of
    83,000 employees and thoroughly review any proposed cuts prior
    to rolling out further announcement like this,'' end quote.
        Mr. Chairman, I am going to introduce a resolution
    supporting the VFW. I would hope that you can support that. All
    that they are saying, which makes common sense to me, if you
    want to make the VA more efficient, let's do it. You are right.
    Is there bureaucracy? Yep. Let's deal with that. But do it an
    intelligent plan, with the cooperation of the veterans
    organizations who are on the ground, who better can come to
    tell you that you have people who are not working well. All
    right? But to arbitrarily say, hey, we are going to lay off
    83,000 people, that makes sense to nobody.
        On a more provincial point of view--so, Mr. Chairman, I am
    going to work, and I would hope that we could have bipartisan
    support here. We are simply saying, to quote Mr. Engelbaum,
    ``let's go forward in a detailed and thoughtful process.'' Work
    with us. All right.
        Do you believe that health care is a right for every
    veteran in this country?
        Mr. Engelbaum. Absolutely. I appreciate that.
        Senator Sanders. Okay. That is fine. I agree with you. Do
    you think we should do a better job in reaching out? One of the
    problems I have been working on for years, with some success,
    is letting veterans know about the benefits to which they are
    legally entitled. I am not sure we do as good a job on that as
    we should. Do you think we should do a better job in that area?
        Mr. Engelbaum. I will turn it over. I know it is very, very
    important to do so. I know we have made strides. I am not sure
    there is anybody here that can really--do you want to address
    that? But I always think we could always do better, Senator.
        Senator Sanders. I recall--Excuse me. I do not have a lot
    of time. I apologize. But doing a town meeting in Bennington,
    Vermont, about the prescription drug benefits the veterans are
    entitled to. A lot of veterans did not even know that.
        But my point is, if you believe that every veteran--and I
    am hearing you say that--is entitled to the health care that we
    have provided them, if you are going to do aggressive
    outreach--am I hearing you say that? Okay.--you are going to
    need more staff, not less, to take care of our veterans.
        All right. On a provincial note, we are on the list,
    whatever that may mean, in Vermont to get two new state-of-the-
    art CBOCs. One is in Chittenden County, and I do not know if
    anybody is familiar with that. Ms. Cohen, are you familiar with
    that? No, okay. Mr. Montoya, are you familiar with that?
        Mr. Montoya. Very much so, sir.
        Senator Sanders. Okay. Could you help me out here? We have
    two on the list, one in Chittenden County, one probably in the
    Keene area, in New Hampshire, which Vermonters in the southern
    part of the state can utilize. Can you give me a status report
    on that, sir?
        Mr. Montoya. Yes, so I know, sir, I do not have it but I
    will get it for the record for you and talk with your staff
    members, as well. But I think this is one that is very
    important to our veterans in Vermont and New Hampshire, to make
    sure that they get the care.
        Last I had on that is that they were going through the
    acquisition process, but I want to be very detailed in my
    response to you.
        Senator Sanders. All right. Will you get back to me on
    that?
        Mr. Montoya. Absolutely.
        Senator Sanders. I will give you a ring.
        Mr. Montoya. A hundred percent.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VA Response: The two Community Based Outpatient Clinics--one in
     Chittenden County (Burlington, Vermont) and one in Keene, New
     Hampshire--are in solicitation. However, we do not have a timeline for
     completion.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Senator Sanders. All right. Look, the bottom line is this
    is not complicated. I do not think there is anybody who does
    not think there is too much bureaucracy at the VA. I assume
    everybody wants to make it more efficient. I assume everybody
    wants it do its best for veterans. I assume we all want
    veterans to be able to take advantage of the programs that
    Congress has passed to help them. You do not do it by
    arbitrarily laying off tens of thousands. You do it by working
    with the veterans organizations, by working with this
    Committee.
        Mr. Engelbaum, is there anything I have said that you
    disagree with?
        Mr. Engelbaum. No, Senator. I am looking forward to working
    with the Committee, and I met some of the Representatives
    behind me right before the meeting and invited them for some
    conversations, and I look forward to discussions and working
    together to better support our veterans.
        Senator Sanders. Thank you.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal has another follow up,
    or a request, in which I will recognize him, and then I am
    going to have my follow up, and then we will change panels. And
    we are going to recess at that point in time in which we
    change, so that both Senator Blumenthal and I can hear the
    witnesses in the second panel. But we have an 11:45 vote, so we
    will run over to vote, come back, and we will restart. Senator
    Blumenthal.
        Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. For the record, Mr.
    Engelbaum, I just want to expand on the number that was given
    to you by Senator Sanders. As of the end of fiscal year 2024,
    there were 36,000 vacancies in veterans' health care, there
    were 2,751 in the VBA. And by the way, those health care
    positions, they were 1,800 social workers, 693 psychologists,
    2,092 doctors, 6,300 registered nurses, 3,400 health care
    schedulers, and 1,200 custodians. Every single one of those
    positions, vital to veterans health care.
        So I would suggest, respectfully, that rather than focusing
    on how to fire VA health care workers, which is what the
    RESTORE Act seems to do and what Elon Musk and Donald Trump are
    doing through Secretary Collins, that you would be better off
    trying to figure out how to recruit to fill those positions.
    What you are doing right now is going to discourage and deter
    anybody who wants to be in the health care professional field
    from joining the VA. Why would they, when your focus is on
    firing them?
        Let me also give you an opportunity to correct the record.
    I think you contended that VBA claims processing times have
    gone up since the PACT Act. That is untrue. The average number
    of days to complete a pre-PACT Act claim were 166. The average
    number of days to complete a claim in January 2025, after
    passage of the PACT Act, is 148.
        So actually, when you say we can do better, we will do
    better, you were doing better. You were doing better. And now
    you are going to do worse.
        So again, to adopt the analogy that I had before, you are
    sinking the ship basically, and we are talking here about
    rearranging the chairs on the deck of that sinking ship. Call
    it the Titanic or whatever you wish. But we do need bipartisan
    cooperation to stop the bleeding, as the VFW commander in chief
    told us.
        Finally, I just want to say, I was remiss in not
    specifically mentioning before, but we have worked with the
    professionals who are before us here. I know that you intend to
    do good things with the VA. I have worked with Al Montoya, for
    example, in Connecticut. And we want to empower you. I know it
    is difficult within the VA. But there are thousands and
    thousands of dedicated VA workers right now. They deserve to be
    elevated, not trashed or denigrated, as Elon Musk and Donald
    Trump are doing. Our veterans are not suckers. They are our
    heroes.
        I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal.
        Just a couple of thoughts and a question from me. First,
    Senator Blumenthal, while I do not think he was diminishing the
    value of the RESTORE Act overly, but I want to respond.
        The Restore VA Accountability Act is about providing the
    best care and quality opportunities for veterans. I think it
    has a side benefit. It is great to work, it is better to work
    in a place in which you do not allow people who misbehave,
    commit fraud, negligent to the patient, to continue to work
    there, or to just move them to another position as the VA has
    done. And I am committed to trying to make sure that the
    Restore Act is something we accomplish. It was overwhelmingly
    supported in a bipartisan way in the past. It ran into legal
    and regulatory kind of challenges. And we need to work to make
    sure we get the law right.
        But eliminating people, at any agency, that misbehave is a
    good thing for the customers they serve and a good thing for
    the people they work with.
        A couple of my colleagues mentioned the inspector general.
    Both Republican and Democrat colleagues mentioned the use of
    the inspector general. I would add, for a second time, my
    public voice to the importance of restoring an inspector
    general to the Department of Veterans Affairs. And as we try to
    figure out how to right-size the VA, the inspector general has
    been our ally in finding ways to do things better or things
    that happen at the VA that make no sense, are inefficient, and
    inspector general is hugely important to the efforts that you
    indicate you are trying to accomplish. So I just highlight
    again the value of an inspector general.
        And we also, we, the majority, but we, as the Chairman of
    the Committee, have requested information from the Department
    of Veterans Affairs. Some of it has been answered and other
    components of our inquiries, some of the things you heard from
    particularly the minority, the Democratic side of our
    Committee, we are asking for that kind of information too, and
    I highlight that for you to return to the VA to encourage the
    answering of Members of Congress' questions. And that only
    reiterates my view that this Committee will and should have
    significant opportunities to participate in the decision-making
    process about workforce at the VA.
        And finally, Mr. Engelbaum, you have tried several times to
    finish a sentence that I think is important, at least you think
    it is important because you tried to say it a number of times,
    and it has to do with the 83,000, or the 80,000. I think you
    have tried to explain that is not necessarily the goal. And
    that was certainly reported in press, and maybe was in a memo
    at the VA, so I am not discounting it. Somebody may have come
    up with this number.
        But what is your goal in regard to--I am going to ask you
    this question. Is it conceivable you would have the analysis
    done at the VA and determine that in certain areas you need
    more employees, not less? And is the goal to figure out how to
    get rid of 80,000, or is it a different goal?
        Mr. Engelbaum. It is the former, Senator. Obviously, we
    want to be efficient, and we want to be lean. As I was trying
    to get across, you have to start with something when you start
    with the planning process. When we are talking about the
    return, we are talking about a 15 percent is what we are
    looking at when you are talking about over 470,000. And I will
    be very clear, and I think the Secretary would be very clear on
    this. We are going to do our review, we are going to let the
    process fall out, and ultimately he will make a decision what
    the final number would be, based upon that analysis that we are
    conducting.
        As you rightly said, we may, and we probably should, plus
    up in other areas. We will take down other areas. We will also
    look at what we are going to stop doing, as far as specific
    mission, and as I mentioned, flatlining bureaucracies. Numerous
    things that we want to take a look at. But if you do not start
    with a goal, or start with some sort of planning factor,
    aggressive planning factor to force people to think, and think
    outside the box, and come up with options, then you are going
    to go nowhere.
        And so that is what really that is. That goal, that
    planning factor enables us to start our in-depth analysis,
    bottom-up review that we are conducting with the entirety of
    the VA chain of command, in order to arrive at a recommendation
    for the Secretary later on this year.
        Chairman Moran. I wanted to give you the opportunity to
    finish your sentence or your thoughts, your paragraph. I, too,
    have indicated my concern with a number. The goal ought not be
    a number. The goal ought to be to determine what the mission of
    the Department of Veterans Affairs is, and how many people in
    the workforce it takes to accomplish that mission in an
    effective and efficient way. And that, I think, Members of this
    Committee are seemingly willing to help the VA accomplish. The
    80,000 number has really created the uncertainty, the
    difficulty, the criticism that comes from those statements.
        So we look forward to answers to our questions, and we look
    forward to working to figuring out how to right-size the
    Department of Veterans Affairs, but not in an arbitrary way.
    And I thank you, and if you report that to your superiors--and
    that is a poor word in today's world--if you would report that
    to your colleagues, and particularly see about getting us
    answers to our previous questions.
        Mr. Engelbaum. Absolutely, Senator.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. We are going to recess
    so that Senator Blumenthal and I can walk across the street and
    vote. And the second panel, you are welcome to stay in your
    seats or take maybe the thing so we are ready when we come
    back, that you will be ready to take your chairs where these
    witnesses are now seated.
        Thank you for your testimony, and thank you for your
    presence.

        [Recess.]
        Chairman Moran. Hello. Thank you for your patience. The
    Committee will come back to order.
        I want to ask unanimous consent to add to today's hearing
    record letters of support for the Veterans 2nd Amendment
    Protection Act from the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United
    States, the National Disability Rights Network, Vietnam
    Veterans of America, Black Veterans Empowerment Council, Gun
    Owners of America, Military Order of the Purple Heart, National
    Shooting Sports Federation, Firearms Regulatory Accountability
    Council, AMAC Action--Association of Mature American Citizens,
    and the Turning Point Action.
        Hearing no objection, specifying the appropriate time to
    ask that request, it is so ordered.

        [The letters of support appear on pages 175-190 of the
    Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. I now welcome our second panel, witnesses
    at the table. Testifying is Cole Lyle, Director of Veterans'
    Affairs and Rehabilitation Division for the American Legion;
    Ashlynne Haycock-Lohmann, the Director of Government and
    Legislative Affairs for the Tragedy Assistance Program for
    Survivors, TAP; and Patrick Murray, the Director of National
    Legislative Service for the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the
    United States. People we are all familiar with. Thank you for
    your continued education of our Committee.
        And let me yield now to Mr. Lyle.

                                PANEL II

                                  ----------

        STATEMENT OF COLE LYLE, DIRECTOR, VETERANS' AFFAIRS AND
              REHABILITATION DIVISION, THE AMERICAN LEGION

        Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Chairman Moran, distinguished Members
    of the Committee. On behalf of National Commander Jim
    LaCoursiere, Jr., and more than 1.6 million dues-paying members
    of the American Legion, we thank you for the opportunity to
    offer our testimony for the record on pending legislation.
        In good faith, we cannot consider these proposals today
    without recognizing the implementation elephant in the room,
    considering costs and staff demands of these bills with recent
    policy and personnel actions. It is vital to acknowledge this
    hearing comes at a time of uncertainty and widespread change.
        I want to be clear, the American Legion has never shied
    away from the responsibility of being a voice for veterans, and
    we will not start now. To veterans listening, the Legion exists
    for you. The VA exists for you. And we will continue to
    advocate for an effective VA on your behalf.
        On March 6, 2025, Commander LaCoursiere released a
    statement expressing this sentiment and invited veterans to
    share how these changes are impacting their lives. As of today,
    we have received over 4,200 comments, and we look forward to
    sharing the results with the Committee and will certainly flag
    any mission-critical impacts we identify.
        The American Legion supports many of the bills being
    discussed today, having been drafted because of veteran
    experience across the country. They are the results of
    collaboration between the VSOs, Committee staff, and the VA. We
    all have different jobs, but the same goal: to improve the
    lives of servicemembers, veterans, and their families.
        All of these bills are worthy of continued discussion, but
    the big challenge will be forecasting how their implementation
    will, if passed, be successful. The recent policy and personnel
    actions make it more important than ever for veterans service
    organizations to be a part of the legislative and regulatory
    process, and we look forward to this Committee's inclusion of
    Legionnaires' voices. The American Legion has spoken with
    Secretary Collins, senior VA personnel, and Legionnaires on the
    ground about the need for more transparency in the methodology
    of these changes and plans to mitigate potential impacts.
        We believe the voice of our membership can provide crucial
    feedback to ensure no veteran goes without the care they need,
    when they need it, to provide veterans the care they have
    earned, keep veterans off the streets, and most importantly,
    keep them from spiraling into a critical mass of despair that
    drives them to make an irreversible decision.
        This is the American Legion's number one priority for a
    reason. The values and habits the military instills do not
    disappear when we transition out. Eight percent of companies in
    the S&P 500 are led by CEOs who served; 9.1 percent of U.S.
    small businesses are veteran-owned, generating $1 trillion in
    annual receipts and employing 5 million Americans; 25 percent,
    roughly, of Federal employees are veterans, with more than half
    a million employed by agencies around the world. Further,
    according to the Department of Labor, veterans make up 10
    percent of emergency medical technicians, 19 percent of
    firefighters, and 25 percent of police officers.
        Veterans have shown a willingness to donate their time and
    money to aid disaster relief, mentorship, and other community-
    based programs. In short, whether in public service, the
    private sector, or volunteerism, veterans continue to display
    unwavering dedication to their families, communities, states,
    and indeed the country, long after they leave the service.
        Cultivated during service, a veteran's unique set of skills
    continues to pay tangible dividends to the American people. But
    perhaps more importantly, servicemembers experience shared
    adversity in pursuit of common goals from the moment they
    arrive at boot camp to the day they get out, learning to work
    together regardless of race, religion, or socioeconomic
    background. They are bound together by an esprit de corps that
    sheds preconceived notions and biases, forcing them to work as
    a team.
        Without the ability to look beyond our differences and work
    together, the U.S. military would crumble. Government leaders
    from both sides of the aisle would do well to emulate this
    mentality, honoring the service of our Nation's veterans to
    ensure they continue thriving. America will undoubtedly be
    better for it.
        Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, for the sake of
    time, more detailed and thorough responses can be found within
    our written testimony, and I look forward to your questions.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Lyle appears on pages 103-
    121 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Mr. Lyle, thank you very much. Ms. Haycock-
    Lohmann, you are recognized. Thank you.

    STATEMENT OF ASHLYNNE HAYCOCK-LOHMANN, DIRECTOR, GOVERNMENT AND
     LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS, TRAGEDY ASSISTANCE PROGRAM FOR SURVIVORS

        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. Thank you. Chairman Moran, Ranking
    Member Blumenthal, and distinguished Committee members, the
    Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors is grateful for the
    opportunity to testify today on behalf of the more than 120,000
    surviving families TAPS is honored to serve.
        TAPS strongly supports the Love Lives On Act, and we thank
    Chairman Moran, Senator Warnock, and our 22 original co-
    sponsors for reintroducing one of our top legislative
    priorities. Under current law, surviving spouses must wait
    until the age of 55 to remarry or they lose most of their
    benefits.
        The average of the surviving spouse in this era is between
    25 and 35 years old, forcing them to wait decades to remarry
    and retain their benefits. Just over 500,000 surviving spouses
    receive benefits through the VA, but barely 35,000 of them are
    under the age of 55. That is less than 7 percent. Of those
    35,000 surviving spouses, only 5 percent of them have chosen to
    legally remarry.
        But this is more than just a numbers issue. The Love Lives
    On Act is equally about keeping our promise to our veterans.
    When a servicemember takes the oath of office, they are making
    the ultimate commitment, signing a blank check that is payable
    with their very life. In return, our government makes an
    unbreakable promise that if something happens to them due to
    that service, their spouse and children will be taken care of.
    Period. There was never a caveat that the commitment would end
    because their spouse chose to find happiness again. Honor and
    sacrifice do not come with an expiration date, and neither
    should our Nation's support. This is deeply personal to every
    single widow and widower who has accepted a folded flag.
        This impacts survivors like Marcie, from Kansas, who is
    waiting to remarry but was expelled from her church for living
    with her fiance, forcing her to choose between financial
    stability and rebuilding her life.
        This impacts survivors like Kaanan, from Louisiana, who did
    remarry because she wanted her five children to know that she
    chose love over money, but is now viewed as her children's
    fiduciary, not their parent, in the eyes of the law.
        This impacts survivors like Rebecca, from North Carolina,
    who never had the chance to start a family with her late
    husband but chose to remarry because the sanctity of marriage
    and having her son in wedlock mattered to her.
        This impacts survivors like Linda, from Texas, who
    remarried after 55, and is allowed to keep her benefits.
        These are surviving spouses who have lived through the
    unimaginable loss of their soulmate, and are choosing a chance
    at happiness. They are more than just data points. All they are
    asking for is the right to choose how they move forward and
    pick up the broken pieces of their lives.
        TAPS strongly supports the Caring for Survivors Act, and
    thanks Ranking Member Blumenthal and Senator Boozman for
    reintroducing this important bill. Raising DIC to 55 percent of
    the compensation rate paid to 100 percent disabled veterans
    will increase DIC by an average of $454 per month and provide
    long-overdue parity with other Federal survivor benefits.
        More than half a million survivors receive DIC from the VA.
    The current monthly base rate is $1,653, but has only been
    increased by COLA since 1993. As surviving spouse of Kansas,
    Katie Hubbard, states, ``Increasing DIC would allow me to
    afford groceries and childcare, medical expenses, and home and
    car maintenance while just trying to survive.''
        It is time we fixed this inequity. Our nation's surviving
    families should not be receiving less than their civilian
    counterparts.
        TAPS strongly supports the Veterans Claims Act, and thanks
    Senator Boozman for his leadership on this critical issue.
    Since the passage of the PACT Act, TAPS has seen an influx of
    predatory claims consultants targeting survivors. With over
    30,000 additional survivors now eligible for benefits,
    increased regulatory oversight is crucial to ensuring that
    these survivors receive adequate representation throughout the
    VA claims process.
        TAPS is not an accredited veterans service organization
    because current regulations require VSOs to serve any veteran
    or survivor who requests their assistance. Instead, TAPS'
    mission is dedicated to supporting all those who lost a loved
    one due to military service, and we would be honored to become
    accredited and make the process easier for them. But to be
    clear, TAPS has never, and will never, charge for our services.
        As the leading voice for the families of those who died as
    a result of illness connected to toxic exposure, TAPS led
    efforts to pass the bipartisan PACT Act, but we know that work
    is far from done. TAPS strongly supports the Aviation Cancers
    Examination Study Act and thanks Senators Cotton and Kelly for
    reintroducing this critical legislation to address the
    prevalence and mortality of cancer among the military aviation
    community.
        Finally, TAPS would like to express our support for the
    Veterans Assuring Critical Care Expansion to Support
    Servicemembers Act, and the VA Accountability and Whistleblower
    Protection Act. We thank you, Chairman Moran, for your
    leadership on both of these important issues.
        TAPS appreciates the opportunity to testify today, and I
    look forward to your questions.

        [The prepared statement of Ms. Haycock-Lohmann appears on
    pages 122-145 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Mr. Murray.

      STATEMENT OF PATRICK MURRAY, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE
         SERVICE, VETERANS OF FOREIGN WARS OF THE UNITED STATES

        Mr. Murray. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and
    Members of the Committee, on behalf of the men and women of the
    VFW and its Auxiliary, I would like to thank you for the
    opportunity to speak on these subjects.
        On accountability, the VFW fully agrees the Secretary of
    Veterans Affairs should have the ability to remove bad
    employees from their roles. However, we do not want to see its
    authority used to arbitrarily remove competent and capable
    employees simply as a cost-cutting measure. Reduction-in-force
    efforts should not be bluntly used to satisfy an arbitrary
    budget goal. VA should always be fully staffed with competent
    and capable employees to serve the men and women who have
    earned their health care and benefits.
        VA has recently dismissed more than 2,400 employees.
    Nowhere in these messages did these actions explain what
    warranted them. Members on this Committee regularly say VA
    needs to weed out the bad actors, but the dismissal of these
    employees was not done because it was warranted, instead, it
    was done because it was easy. Before this Committee advances
    this bill, we believe there should be proper oversight to
    ensure the men and women who serve our veterans, caregivers,
    and survivors are not being arbitrarily removed from their
    crucial roles.
        The VFW supports the ACCESS Act, which would provide
    overall enhancements to the VA Community Care Program. Since
    the passage of the MISSION Act, VA has not implemented this
    program consistently across this entire network. Veterans
    deserve consistency in their care, and this is a good step
    toward providing that. While this proposal does not address VA
    direct care, we would be remiss not to remind this Committee
    that some of the reasons community care appointments and costs
    are increasing is because VA cannot provide some of these vital
    services. Care in the community is VA care, but providing
    resources for care only in the community and not also for VA
    direct care can lead to a less capable VA, which could be
    detrimental.
        VA direct care and community care can complement each other
    to provide a full suite of services for veterans. Often, CCN is
    used to relieve the burden of care, but providing additional
    resources to only one side of that will exacerbate these
    problems. We urge this Committee to fund community care
    improvements but also continue to improve the direct care, so
    this ``pressure relief valve'' is not overused.
        The VFW supports the draft bill, VA Claims Act of 2025, as
    written. We appreciate the Committee's efforts to provide a
    compromise that provides necessary protections and allows for
    the expansion of accreditation to certain individuals who seek
    to provide claims assistance per a reasonable fee. This bill
    provides necessary guardrails for claims preparation and
    preserves veterans' choice when seeking a reasonable, free
    market alternative to the current process.
        The VFW has expressed our red lines regarding any
    comprehensive bill put forth seeking our support. Veterans
    should not have to pay future benefits. Active-duty
    servicemembers should not have to pay for claims assistance
    prior to transition. And no one who prepares a claim should
    have any financial affiliation with medical examiners who could
    possibly affect the outcome of that claim. We believe these are
    commonsense concerns that we insist be in any bill that is
    advanced, and we are grateful the Committee has listened to our
    feedback and produced that exact bill.
        To the VFW, this has never been about money. Accredited
    agents and attorneys can make a healthy living operating within
    the ethical confines of the established non-predatory fee
    structure.
        When payment comes from retroactive benefits, it is hard to
    consider predatory since the veteran is guaranteed to be able
    to settle that debt. Putting veterans in debt for accessing
    their earned benefits is wrong, and we are grateful this
    Committee agrees with that.
        We would also recommend that this Committee consider a
    reasonable fee cap added to this structure. We do not have a
    specific amount to suggest. However, we would ask the Committee
    to consider the factors contained within 38 CFR when making
    that determination.
        Chairman Moran and Ranking Member Blumenthal, this
    concludes my testimony. I am prepared to answer any questions
    you or the Members of the Committee may have.

        [The prepared statement of Mr. Murray appears on pages 146-
    157 of the Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Thank you very much [audio interruption] in
    testifying before our Committee and following our work.
        I have been working on key provisions of the ACCESS Act
    over two Congresses now, and I am particularly burdened by the
    VA's classification of mental health residential rehabilitation
    programs for veterans who require a higher level of mental
    health and addiction care. It is my view the VA should rely on
    the Commission for Accreditation and Rehabilitation Facilities
    and Joint Commission Accredited Programs in the community to
    deliver this critical care closer to veterans' homes and close
    to their support systems.
        Could any or all of you describe for the Committee how this
    negatively is impacting veterans your organizations work with,
    and by this I mean the VA's positions or actions in regard to
    residential care for those services. Mr. Murray?
        Mr. Murray. Mr. Chairman, my wife went through this
    program. About a couple of years ago she was trying to get into
    one of these facilities that she found on her own, that
    provided the exact care that she was looking for. Three
    different times she was referred. Three different times those
    referrals were rescinded. They tried to send her to VA
    facilities that did not offer the services they wanted. They
    were all-male facilities, or they were for substance abuse, but
    that is not what she was looking for, or they were for eating
    disorders, but that is not what she was looking for. She found
    the one, but it was outside of Optum's third-party
    administrator network, so it got denied again.
        RRTPs, are, we believe, something that can actually save
    lives. When veterans reach out and ask for that help, they
    cannot get turned away because they might not come back again.
    That is why these improvements are very important.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you for your answer to your question
    and your personal experience relayed to us. Again, I have been
    broadly interested in community care for a long time, but this
    particular issue strikes me as one in which it is life and
    death. And we have heard and seen, in testimony after
    testimony, and stories related to me by veterans and their
    families, how important it is for that residential treatment
    facility, and yet the VA is unwilling to provide that.
        Either of you want to say anything more about that, or have
    we got it covered?
        Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just echo Pat's
    comments and yours, that this is a crucial piece of the ACCESS
    Act that will save lives.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. Ashlynne?
        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. I would also add that these are
    lifesaving measures, that TAPS sees a very large number of
    survivors who come to us that lost their loved one to suicide.
    My mother is an Air Force veteran who died by suicide when I
    was in college. But we were under the TRICARE system, and when
    she wanted mental health treatment, she was able to get
    inpatient fairly easily, even if it was outside of the official
    providers through DoD. Of course, it did not, unfortunately,
    save her life, but she was able to get that access that she
    needed, when she asked for it. And we know that it is a very
    different system for our veterans, and ensuring that they have
    access to that means that more families are not coming to us,
    and we do not ever want to have another family need to come to
    TAPS.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you, all three of you.
        Mr. Lyle, thanks to you for the American Legion's support
    of the Veterans ACCESS Act. I appreciate your acknowledgement
    that failure to codify the existing community care standards,
    as a minimum access standard, leaves them vulnerable to changes
    that make it more difficult for veterans to understand their
    rights under the MISSION Act. And clearly in recent times it
    has been difficult, in too many instances, for veterans to be
    told that their capability of finding or pursuing care in the
    community. Under the MISSION Act, you indicate there is
    potential for adding inconsistency and the VA staff working on
    the program.
        So I just wanted you to elaborate a minute about how
    codifying the access standards benefit veterans and make it
    easier for VA staff to understand and deliver that care in the
    community.
        Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, we have seen
    evidence since the MISSION Act passed, because it was
    regulatory and not codified in statute, that at the VISN and
    the local VAMC level, you are right, there is a wide variety of
    education efforts at those levels to inform veterans of their
    options, and even if they are informed, oftentimes veterans can
    get denied the referral or shortened on the authorization
    approved time for community care. And it is vital to codify
    these access standards so that the veterans' decision with
    their provider is the number one priority, and the veteran
    remains the center of what VA does.
        Chairman Moran. Thank you. And Mr. Murray, I will not leave
    you out. The VFW seems especially strong in its support for the
    ACCESS Act. Again, I am pleased by that.
        You have a story, though, in your written testimony about a
    VFW member who gave up on seeking residential care from the VA
    because the program this veteran needed was not in a VA
    network. If you want to provide our office with more
    information, we would be glad to be an advocate for that
    veteran.
        Mr. Murray. That was my wife.
        Chairman Moran. Oh, it is your wife. So it is the same
    story that you just described.
        Mr. Murray. The same story. She was provided a referral to
    a facility that was, I think the first one was in Utah, in the
    VA network but under TriWest. We live in Maryland. It was
    denied. She worked with someone else at DC VA to get a referral
    to a facility I believe in either Arizona or New Mexico. Same
    story. Nowhere could we find anywhere where, in law, it said
    that.
        We ended up trying to navigate the system and found
    somewhere in Pennsylvania, but that was after, as I mentioned,
    being referred to eating disorder clinics or substance abuse,
    or things like that, and that is not what she was looking for.
        Chairman Moran. And part of the reason this residential
    programming is so important is for the location to be
    approximate to where the veteran, his or her family, his or her
    support system lives, and none of those places seem to close to
    Maryland, to me.
        Mr. Murray. No, they were not. But what we learned about
    going through this is some of these facilities are secluded by
    design. You know, you do not want one right across the street
    here, next to Union Station. That is not the best environment
    for some of that healing.
        Chairman Moran. There is a medical and a care reason that
    it is that way.
        Mr. Murray. Yes. That is why when we talked about different
    access standards for the RRTPs, they should probably be thought
    about a little bit differently than the standard mental health,
    because they are designed to be away from population centers
    for the healing purposes. You know, the same drive time and
    wait time standards may not be apples to apples with that same
    type of mental health care.
        Chairman Moran. I do not want my staff to hear this, but
    thank you for educating me in something I did not know. I am
    sure they told me and it did not register.
        Finally, in this regard, the VFW recommends that the ACCESS
    Act be amended to prohibit barriers to accessing community
    programs, and I quote, ``available and commonly tailored to
    veterans,'' end quote. What are you telling us?
        Mr. Murray. Mostly it is falling back to that story. We
    have heard from veterans who have tried to access, not just my
    wife but others, who have tried to access care, and are denied
    for seemingly arbitrary reasons. The standards are the
    standards. That is why we support codifying them. They have
    been the standard for half a dozen years. We want to make this
    as easily accessible to veterans as possible so there is
    transparency and they know. We believe that community care is a
    great supplement to VA care, when used consistently and
    appropriately.
        Chairman Moran. Got it. Excuse me for asking the same
    question of the same facts three times. Senator Blumenthal.
        Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Murray and all the members of the
    panel, thank you for your service. Mr. Murray, in particular, I
    understand that you are making a transition, and we will miss
    you here if, in fact, you will be going on to another chapter.
    But you have contributed immensely, and we thank you for your
    service on the VFW.
        Just to follow up the question that you were just asked.
    Are you, or any of the others, in favor of substituting
    community care for VA health care, in other words, privatizing
    the VA?
        Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Ranking Member Blumenthal. I think
    community care is VA care. VA pays for it. VA is supposed to
    coordinate it. It is a vital tool that the VA can use to ensure
    we do not have another wait-list scandal like we did in 2014 in
    Phoenix. There are certainly improvements to be made, I think
    particularly in scheduling. We hear from veterans they like the
    care that they receive at VA. Oftentimes it is a one-stop shop
    for them. They like the care they receive in the community.
    Oftentimes they are frustrated by the referral and scheduling
    process. So I think that is another reason the American Legion
    has supported the ACCESS Act, because it seeks--and a couple of
    these bills--because it seeks to improve that particular
    capability of the care coordination.
        Senator Blumenthal. They are frustrated by delays in
    community care, just as they are in VA health care, and they
    should be given quicker care in both. Correct?
        Mr. Lyle. You know, across the country there is a common
    saying we have all heard, I am sure, that you have been to one
    VA, you have been to one VA. There are experiences that vary.
    Some VAs have really good community care referral processes.
    Others do not. Some have the ability to absorb the demand in
    their catchment area. Others do not, and see a higher level of
    referrals into the community.
        But you are absolutely correct. There are improvements to
    be made in both areas, and a lot of veterans are happy with
    both areas.
        Senator Blumenthal. And they should be complementary.
        Mr. Lyle. Absolutely.
        Senator Blumenthal. Privatizing VA health care.
        Mr. Lyle. It should serve as a relief----
        Senator Blumenthal. Heads nodding, so I am going to take
    that as a yes.
        Let me ask you. Have any of you or your organizations met
    with Secretary Collins about the plan to fire 80,000 or more VA
    workers?
        Mr. Lyle. We have met with Secretary Collins. That was
    prior to the memo being released. But since that time we have
    been in contact with the Secretary's office.
        Senator Blumenthal. You have been in contact?
        Mr. Lyle. Yes, sir.
        Senator Blumenthal. And what have you told him?
        Mr. Lyle. We just requested that during this review
    process, before May--I understand that they are supposed to do
    their full internal review before May, publish a report in June
    that recommends the reduction-in-force by the end of the fiscal
    year--we absolutely wanted to have the Legionnaires' voices
    heard in that process, to ensure that there were no cuts in
    mission-critical capabilities for health care or benefits at
    the VA. So we expressed our desire to provide that feedback,
    and we are happy to work with this Committee on that issue.
        Mr. Murray. Senator Blumenthal, we saw some of the impacts
    for the 2,400 that were dismissed in the past few weeks. We are
    concerned that 80-some thousand will also have impacts on care
    and benefits. We expressed that to the Secretary. He assured us
    that it will not, but we are skeptical, because of what we saw
    already.
        We know that there are ways to improve this via technology,
    other ways to make improvements at VA. But there needs to be a
    plan in place first. As we heard in the first panel, they are
    going to develop a plan, but they already started letting
    people go. A plan should not be the fourth step in the process.
    It should probably be the first. That is what we want to see.
    We want to see transparency in this. We want to make sure that
    no decisions are being made that have unintended consequences.
    That is what we want to make sure of.
        Senator Blumenthal. Ms. Haycock-Lohmann?
        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. We have not met with the Secretary
    yet.
        Senator Blumenthal. You know, your Commander in Chief, Al
    Lipphardt, was probably the most powerful critic, I have heard,
    in his testimony, and your organization in its statements. Stop
    the bleeding. Use a scalpel to extract the shrapnel, as was
    done for Mr. Lipphardt when he was wounded in combat. Do not
    cut off the arm. That is what we are seeing here, a chainsaw
    cutting off the arm. I am asking both of your organizations, no
    matter how you talk to Secretary Collins, to be as vocal and
    vociferous as you possibly can be, because it is your voices
    and faces that will make the difference, not ours. We can be as
    vehement as can be, but at the end of the day it is our
    veterans who have to save VA health care, VA benefits, the PACT
    Act. And I am just telling it straight to you.
        Mr. Lyle. Sir, if I may follow up real quick. In our
    opening remarks I wanted to highlight that our National
    Commander released a statement. That included a survey to allow
    Legionnaires and veterans, their families, to provide feedback
    on any impacts that may have occurred to them or their
    immediate family as a result of recent policy personnel
    actions. As of this morning, I think we received 4,200,
    approximately, responses, with a response rate of 60 percent
    said no impact, and the other 40 percent at least had minimal
    impact. And we are still in the process of sifting through that
    data. Some of it is hard to frankly tell if it is a result of
    normal VA issues versus this specific issue, but we are happy
    to follow up with you and provide that feedback.
        Senator Blumenthal. I would appreciate your following up. I
    have not submitted my questionnaire yet, as a member of the
    Legion, but I will make a point of doing so. And let me just
    point out, these cuts are literally occurring in real time. It
    will be days, maybe weeks, before you see an impact. That New
    York Times story is capturing the initial impacts. Again, to
    analogize it to the combat wound suffered by Mr. Lipphardt,
    this is the point in the wound where it has just been inflicted
    and you have yet to see the shock, the bleeding, and the
    effects in real life, but they are occurring in real time.
        So your questionnaire may fail to adequately capture the
    impact, not to mention the 80,000 who have not been fired yet.
    And so far as I can determine from you, and from the prior
    testimony, there is no plan. And Mr. Murray is absolutely
    right. It should be plan first, fire later, not fire first and
    aim later, plan later.
        Let me ask each of you. I have described very briefly in
    outline form the legislation that I am introducing, Putting
    Veterans First. I do not know whether you were here when I
    outlined it, but I am going to ask for your reaction,
    essentially requiring that all veterans who have been fired
    from their Federal employment be restored to their positions,
    all veterans, regardless of the agency, and all VA employees,
    whether or not they are veterans, a standard for termination in
    the future that involves analysis of performance, not just
    taking the probationary workers and firing them. A standard and
    a process for appeal, mental health services, respect for
    spouses and survivors, and restore them, as well, to
    employment. I think that will be important to your
    organizations. Maybe you can give me some initial reactions.
        Mr. Murray. Senator, we would be happy to take a look at
    that when you produce a draft for that, and we will follow up
    with your staff. But hopefully that will let us know who they
    actually let go and what they all did, so we can start talking
    about who needs to come back. That is part of the unknowns
    right now, who the employees were, what their roles were, and
    what they are looking at. That would be very helpful.
        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. I echo what Pat said. We really do
    want to take a look at it, but also figuring out if that gives
    us access to who was let go and what the impacts were, what
    agencies. That is the critical piece that we feel like we have
    been missing in this entire process. We hear numbers, but we
    are not seeing the exact data of what departments, what
    decisions, what agencies, what contracts were terminated, the
    things that we really need to see all of the information before
    making a decision on.
        Senator Blumenthal. And I should make clear that the
    legislation will include military spouses and survivors.
        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. Fantastic. Thank you.
        Mr. Lyle. Thank you, sir. First of all, I love the name,
    Putting Veterans First, but similar, we would have to review
    the legislation. We are a resolution-based organization, to
    ensure that we are aligned on that piece of legislation.
        Senator Blumenthal. Well, I hope for your support, and
    equally, I hope for your constructive suggestions, if you think
    there are ways to improve it. We are trying to be as
    comprehensive as possible. There are a lot of different ideas
    floating around, a lot of different legislation with good-
    sounding names. We want this to be not just good sounding but
    effective.
        And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask, if
    there is no objection, that a series of letters from some of
    our labor organizations, partners like the Fraternal Order of
    Police, be submitted to the record.
        Chairman Moran. Without objection.

        [The letters referred to appear on pages 172-174 of the
    Appendix.]

        Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal, anything else?
        Senator Blumenthal. That is it.
        Chairman Moran. I am going to ask one more question, and
    this time Ms. Haycock-Lohmann, a couple of questions. Thanks
    for the work you do. You are a surviving child yourself, and
    your work is important. I thank you for your help that you
    provided to me and Senator Warnock in getting pieces of the
    Love Lives On Act across the finish line last Congress.
        Since its original introduction last Congress, can you talk
    about how many surviving spouses have come forward to speak
    about why this bill is needed, especially those that have
    previously been scared to speak out, or getting remarried for
    fear of being penalized.
        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. Yes. So passage of the Dole Act really
    was absolutely changing the way that survivors felt comfortable
    speaking about moving forward after their loss. One of the
    provisions in there, Section 303, basically stated that a
    surviving spouse was a spouse who had not remarried or held
    oneself out to be married, which was a very arbitrary clause
    that led to people turning them in for living with another
    person or sharing a joint bank account, or having a child out
    of wedlock. Anyone could have just turned them in for whatever
    reason, and unfortunately, VA's response to that is to
    essentially turn off their benefits and then open an
    investigation, where they sent people into your home and your
    community. They interview your employer, your children's
    teachers, your neighbors, and tell them you are being
    investigated for Federal fraud.
        So they have so much fear about someone turning them in for
    no reason, despite the fact that they were living with a new
    significant other.
        The passage of Section 303 in the Dole Act means that
    nobody is going to be living through these weird witch hunts
    ever again, and that they can at least be open about the
    relationship they are in, while we wait to pass the rest of the
    Love Lives On Act, and the provisions that, you know, we know
    so many more surviving spouses will chose remarriage once we
    pass more of the financial pieces.
        But we were also hearing heavily from the surviving spouses
    who have remarried that are trying to use the education
    benefits now, that they are excited to get their military ID
    cards back in October, when that goes into effect.
        So already such a huge impact on the community, and they
    are very excited to continue to work. And I am sure many of the
    congressional offices whose staff are in here have been on the
    receiving end of many emails about the importance of this,
    because we are hearing from thousands of survivors who are very
    active, very engaged, and are really excited to see the rest of
    this move, but grateful for all of the things we have already
    accomplished.
        Chairman Moran. Would you point out, remind me, remind the
    Committee, why there has been pushback and concern that we have
    heard from some that if a survivor remarries they no longer,
    quote, ``need'' to receive certain benefits from the VA and
    DoD, since their so-called contract with the government has
    been fulfilled. Who says those kinds of things, and what is the
    consequence?
        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. The pushback has primarily been from
    the Armed Services Committee. They seem to not agree
    necessarily with the amazing work you guys have done over here.
    That has just been. I am not quite sure why they feel that way,
    but the part that they are missing is that surviving spouses
    are military spouses first. You know, we talk so much,
    extensively, about military spouse under- and unemployment. It
    is one of the biggest problems in the military community. It
    impacts recruitment and retention. And surviving spouses were
    military spouses first.
        So they are making that transition. They have now lost
    their spouse. Many of them have young children that they have
    to raise. They do not have an established career. And then all
    of a sudden they are starting over at 40, 45 years old, after
    raising their children, in an entry-level career. They view
    that military retirement as the family's retirement. Most
    military spouses will never invest in their own retirement, and
    that goes the same for surviving spouses. Survivor benefit
    plan, in particular, over at DoD is a purchased annuity, in
    most cases. So this is something the family bought into but we
    are breaking our promise by saying yes, you bought this
    program, but we are not going to let you keep that benefit.
        Chairman Moran. You heard me question the Department of
    Veterans Affairs officials about the slowness and then the debt
    collection. Anything you want me to know why that should
    matter, why that is a valid question?
        Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. The biggest problem that we see there
    is that a surviving spouse, when they remarry and turn in that
    paperwork, believes that if they have turned the paperwork in,
    they have done their due diligence. We know that survivors tend
    to be uneducated on their own benefits, especially if they have
    children in the home and there are portions that are the
    spouse's portion, the children's portion. It is all comingled.
    And so they believe if they turn in their paperwork that the VA
    will stop their portion of the benefits, and whatever continues
    to be sent to them is their children's portion.
        They do not ask the right questions because they trust that
    the VA has done the right thing in that regard. And then, all
    of a sudden, they get these debt letters, stating, ``We never
    processed your paperwork,'' or ``It took us two years to
    process your paperwork,'' or ``You never notified us,'' and
    that they are wanting that money back. But what it comes down
    to, they trust that the VA, if they turn their paperwork in to
    the VA, they have done the right thing, and then they get these
    huge debt checks, because they do go back into the queue. There
    is not a button somebody pushes, okay, they remarried--click.
    It goes back into being processed, and it can take months and
    years. We have seen cases take three to four years, where the
    survivors have had to fight to get them to turn it off. And
    oftentimes they do not have the money to immediately repay
    those benefits.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal, for your final
    question.
        Senator Blumenthal. Yes, I do not have a question. I just
    have a thanks, again, to each of you. I neglected, Mr. Lyle, to
    mention my thanks for your work on military working dogs,
    service dogs, which has been exemplary and very important to
    the Committee and to me, personally. We still have work to do.
        And Ms. Haycock-Lohmann, you have been at this advocacy for
    quite a number of years after losing your parents, who I know
    are still very much in your memory. But the issue of veteran
    suicide still needs to be addressed, and I know you are
    continuing that advocacy.
        And again, to Mr. Murray, my thanks to you for your
    longstanding service.
        I want to thank the VA, members of the previous panel, who
    have stayed. Mr. Engelbaum, thank you for remaining. I want the
    record to reflect that he and Mr. Montoya and others have
    stayed to listen to you, and I hope that they will listen to
    our veterans. And again, I hope our veterans will be vocal in
    their advocacy. Thank you.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal, thank you. There are no
    other questions, so I want to once again, as Senator Blumenthal
    did, thank our witnesses, in this case our second panel of
    witnesses, the three of you, and for our audience and their
    presence here, as well. It is always nice to see the VA
    witnesses stay to hear the next panel that follows them.
        And I, too, want to express my gratitude and thank you to
    Patrick Murray for his significant contribution to the VFW, and
    more broadly to veterans across the country. I hold veterans--I
    do not know what the level you can have, but the highest regard
    for people who served our country. And maybe there is just a
    slight increase in that respect for veterans who serve other
    veterans. And there is absolutely no question that you, in your
    career, and the things that you have been doing for the VFW
    have been hugely valuable to me and my team, but more
    importantly, hugely valued to your comrades in arms. And just
    great gratitude and best wishes as the next step occurs.
        Senator Blumenthal. Semper Fi.
        Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal never--yes, that is a
    good idea.
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Moran. I had this contest with the Senator from
    Montana, Senator Tester, about who always got the last word in,
    and Senator Blumenthal, unfortunately, has picked up this
    habit. It is me.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Blumenthal. You have just gotten the last word.
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman Moran. Well, not if you keep saying that.
        So again, while we move to lighter things, I do not want
    that to take away from the seriousness of the compliment and
    the seriousness of the best wishes and the gratitude that was
    expressed by everybody in this room. You represent a very
    important and valuable ally for veterans and for this
    Committee, and thank you for your service.
        The Committee--well, let me say a few other things.
        Chairman Moran. I look forward to working with my
    colleagues in the VSO community and the VA as we try to move
    these bills forward. Senators who would like to submit
    questions for the record to today's witnesses, or make an
    additional statement, have a week to do so. And our witnesses,
    please we would ask you to respond to those questions from my
    colleagues in a very timely manner.
        This is the first legislative hearing we have had in the
    new Administration, but we have had lots of challenges over a
    long period of time in getting quick responses to our
    colleagues and to our requests from our staff. So another thing
    you can take to the VA, we would appreciate timely action on
    the part of the Department.
        With that, this hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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