[Senate Hearing 119-27]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 119-27
TO REVIEW H.R. 471, THE FIX OUR FORESTS
ACT, AND OPTIONS TO REDUCE CATA-
STROPHIC WILDFIRE
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
CONSERVATION, FORESTRY, NATURAL RESOURCES,
AND BIOTECHNOLOGY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
March 6, 2025
__________
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-496 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY
JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado
JONI ERNST, Iowa TINA SMITH, Minnesota
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas CORY BOOKER, New Jersey
TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa PETER WELCH, Vermont
JOHN THUNE, South Dakota JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
DEB FISCHER, Nebraska ADAM SCHIFF, California
JERRY MORAN, Kansas ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan
Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director
Caleb Crosswhite, Majority Chief Counsel
Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk
Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director
Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel
----------
Subcommittee on Conservation, Forestry, Natural Resources, and
Biotechnology
ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas, Chair
JIM JUSTICE, West Virginia MICHAEL BENNET, Colorado, Ranking
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota Member
JOHN THUNE, South Dakota BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
JONI ERNST, Iowa RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi PETER WELCH, Vermont
ADAM SCHIFF, California
C O N T E N T S
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Thursday, March 6, 2025
Page
Subcommittee Hearing:
To Review H.R. 471, The Fix Our Forests Act, and Options To
Reduce Catastrophic Wildfire................................... 1
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STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS
Marshall, Hon. Roger, U.S. Senator from the State of Kansas...... 1
Bennet, Hon. Michael F., U.S. Senator from the State of Colorado. 3
WITNESSES
Weiner, Matt, Chief Executive Officer, Megafire Action........... 6
Beum, Frank R., Retired Regional Forester, Rocky Mountain Region,
Member of Board of Directors, National Association of Forest
Service Retirees............................................... 8
Vredenburg, Tim, Director, Department of Forest Management, Cow
Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians.......................... 10
Houck, Hon. Jonathan, County Commissioner, Board of County
Commissioners, Gunnison County, CO............................. 11
Gordon, Robert, Senior Vice President, Policy, Research and
International, American Property Casualty Insurance Association 13
----------
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Weiner, Matt................................................. 34
Beum, Frank.................................................. 44
Vredenburg, Tim.............................................. 47
Houck, Jonathan.............................................. 51
Gordon, Robert............................................... 62
Document(s) Submitted for the Record:
Marshall, Hon. Roger:
Association of Firetech Innovation, letter for the Record.... 80
Coalition, letter for the Record............................. 83
Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation, letter for the Record.. 85
Family Farm Alliance, letter for the Record.................. 88
Federation of American Scientists, letter for the Record..... 98
National Association of State Foresters, letter for the
Record..................................................... 100
National Cattlemen's Beef Association, letter for the Record. 102
Outdoor Alliance, letter for the Record...................... 105
Tree Care Industry Association, letter for the Record........ 111
United States Forest Service, letter for the Record.......... 114
Bennet, Hon. Michael:
Karuk Tribe, letter for the Record........................... 118
Wilderness Watch, letter for the Record...................... 120
Schiff, Hon. Adam:
Lomakatsi Restoration Project, letter for the Record......... 125
Lujan, Hon. Ben:
National Young Farmers Coalition, letter for the Record...... 127
Question and Answer:
Weiner, Matt:
Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet....... 132
Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff.......... 135
Beum, Frank:
Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet....... 139
Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........ 140
Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff.......... 141
Vredenburg, Tim:
Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet....... 142
Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........ 144
Houck, Jonathan:
Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet....... 145
Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........ 146
Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch.......... 147
Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff.......... 149
Gordon, Robert:
Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet....... 152
Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff.......... 154
TO REVIEW H.R. 471, THE FIX OUR FORESTS ACT, AND OPTIONS TO REDUCE
CATASTROPHIC WILDFIRE
----------
THURSDAY, MARCH 6, 2025
U.S. Senate
Subcommittee on Conservation, Forestry, Natural Resources,
and Biotechnology
Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:12 a.m., in
Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Roger Marshall
presiding.
Present: Senators Marshall [presiding], Boozman, Justice,
Hoeven, Bennet, Klobuchar, Booker, Lujan, Warnock, and Schiff.
STATEMENT OF HON. ROGER MARSHALL, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE
OF KANSAS
Chairman Marshall. Well, good morning and welcome,
everybody. It is my privilege to call this hearing to order. I
would like to thank our witnesses for taking time out of their
busy schedules to come share their expertise and perspectives
on the Fix Our Forests Acts, H.R. 471, which the House passed
for the second time by an overwhelming vote of 279 to 141 in
January 2025, just a month or so ago.
We know wildfires are indifferent to Federal, State,
Tribal, and private property jurisdictions, and we have all
seen the destruction catastrophic wildfire can cause on our
rural and urban communities. Just this week, we are witnessing
fires threatening lives and property in the Carolinas, and
unfortunately, recent history is replete with incidents
illustrating the devastating impacts fires have on our
communities, from the 2018 Camp Fire in Paradise, California,
to the 2023 Lahaina fires in Maui, Hawaii, to the 2025 Southern
California fires as well.
In order to treat an issue, first, we must identify the
symptoms, diagnose the root cause of the problem, and implement
scientifically sound treatments. The loss of human life and
property from these fires are an acute and painful symptom of a
disease that is not working. The cause of these fires is rooted
in misguided policies that go all the way back to the Forest
Service 1930's so-called 10 AM policy, which requires all fires
to be extinguished by 10 a.m. the day after they are
discovered. These causes have been compounded by the Federal
Government's inability or unwillingness to treat the right
acres at the right time at the right scale over numerous
administrations.
Treating this problem comes in the form of an all-of-the-
above approach to modernizing the Federal technological toolbox
for assessing and identifying wildfire risk, facilitating early
response and suppression, and updating the public-private
partnership model for Federal, State, Tribal, county, and
private landowners who address fire risk rather than
jurisdictional or political subdivision boundaries.
Every fire is unique. My dad was the Chief of a Fire
Department for years before becoming Chief of Police, and
indeed, he would tell me, every fire was very unique. The most
catastrophic fires all have similarities. Proper management of
our Nation's forestlands can help prevent a small spark from
turning into a raging fire with devastating consequences.
My own State of Kansas is not immune to wildfire. In 2021,
strong winds and dry air combined to create ideal conditions
for wildfires in the grasslands of Kansas and central Kansas in
the Ford County Fire. That fire was clocked at over 180 miles
an hour at the top of wind turbines sailing through those
prairies. Not all management methods for the grasslands of
Kansas mirror what the science tells us should be conducted on
forested acres, but the important role of proper management on
our landscapes ring true for both.
The Fix Our Forests Act, which we will call FOFA for the
rest of the hearing, is a rare bipartisan opportunity for
Congress to provide the United States Forest Service, the
Department of the Interior, States, Tribes, counties, and
private partners with a modernized and streamlined toolbox to
fight fire. Regardless of one another's views on the
appropriate use of Federal lands and resources, we all need to
help mitigate the frequency and intensity of catastrophic
wildfires while ensuring the scientifically sound and
sustainable stewardship of our Federal lands.
The Fix Our Forests Act provides agencies with critically
needed and appropriately calibrated increases in the acreage
limitations for categorical exclusions to forest managers,
increases which agency analyses have been shown will help
provide the flexibility to better address forest management. To
be clear, categorical exclusions are not a free pass for an
agency to go in and clearcut forests, as some are led to
believe. They are one way for Federal agencies to comply with
the NEPA based upon extensive uses of prior environmental
assessments that showed no significant effect and are still
subject to the scoping before moving forward.
FOFA instructs the Federal Government to identify at the
fireshed scale the top 20 percent of firesheds that are at risk
for fire exposure over the next five years in order to better
focus limited resources. FOFA permanently fixes in statute the
disastrous Ninth Circuit's Cottonwood decision, which the Obama
Administration petitioned the Supreme Court to overturn. It has
led to delays in management projects through unnecessary and
duplicative scoping in an attempt to avoid frivolous
litigation. FOFA also adopts litigation reforms used by past
Republican and Democratic Administrations in statute to limit
litigation delays to essential projects. FOFA strengthens Good
Neighbor Authority, a critical and overwhelmingly successful
program that has allowed local and State partners the ability
to supplement the work the Forest Service is not able to do on
their own lands.
I am honored to recognize the Ranking Member, Senator
Michael Bennet, for his comments.
STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL BENNET, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE
OF COLORADO
Senator Bennet. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Boozman, I do
not know if you would like to go before me. I would be happy--
are you sure? All right. Thank you. Well, thank you for being
here. Chairman Marshall, thank you so much for your partnership
and for coming to Colorado last year to have a hearing. I hope
we can repay the visit. I would like to thank you for your
leadership in organizing today's hearing, and thank you to all
the witnesses for joining us today.
My message is simple, and it is if we are committed to the
health of our forests and our watersheds, the Federal
Government must be a more reliable partner for communities and
local governments. In Colorado, our national forests underpin
our economy and our way of life. Our forests and watersheds
protect our water supplies, support agriculture, drive outdoor
recreation and sustain diverse wildlife habitats.
Today, they are facing unprecedented threats. Drought and
wildfire, of course, are at the top of the list. In the West,
wildfire season is no longer a season, but a year-round reality
for all our communities. These wildfires do not just burn
trees. They endanger lives, they devastate communities, and
they destroy critical infrastructure.
The effects of western wildfires are not just felt in
Colorado but across the entire country. Colorado's national
forests and their watersheds supply water to 19 States and
parts of Mexico. They are the source of water for tens of
millions of people. Farmers and ranchers from the Mississippi
Delta to California, water is our lifeblood in the West, and
our national forests are the source of their supply. Without
that water, there is not a single town or city in my State that
would exist. There is not a county that would exist. There is
not a farm or a ranch that would exist. The health of our
watersheds and the health of our forests are exactly the same
thing. You cannot have one without the other.
We need to be thoughtful about our approach to managing our
forests. A one-size-fits-all approach will not work. Top-down
management without the input of local communities and forestry
experts risk harming our economy, our sensitive habitats, and
the water supply that we are trying to protect in the West.
As we will discuss today, Colorado has a long track record
of successful collaborative forest management projects that
bring together local and Federal partners, including the timber
industry, local government, scientists, tribes, and
conservationists. As wildfire risk increases across the West,
the Federal Government should empower those types of
partnerships and make their work easier, not harder.
Unfortunately, taking a chainsaw to the Forest Service
workforce and funding makes life harder for Coloradans, makes
it harder for citizens in the West, and it does nothing to
advance local forest management and partnership. Axing the
dedicated public servants who manage our national forests is
not just short-sighted, it is downright dangerous.
Much of Colorado is already in drought, months before
summer has even started. Right now, snowpack is below average
in all but one of our major watersheds, and temperatures have
hit record highs over the weekend, reaching 10 to 15 degrees
above the historical average.
Whether it is the Fix Our Forests Act or any other piece of
legislation, it will not matter what we do here in Congress if
the administration is simultaneously undermining our Land
Management Agencies and withholding the resources they need to
do their job. I appreciate the goals of the Fix Our Forests
Act, which we will discuss more today. I really do. If done
thoughtfully, reducing wildfire risk through active management
is an important goal. By the way, we are running out of time. I
worry that the bill, as it is currently written, places an
unreasonable burden on communities and ties the hands of local
governments, potentially undermining the collaborative approach
needed to move forest management projects forward.
I recognize that the wildfire crisis affects us all, and we
have a responsibility to find a bipartisan solution. I am ready
to work with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to
advance legislation that includes the forest policy challenges
and investments that are needed to reduce wildfire risk and
improve the Federal Government's work with States, Local, and
Tribal partners. After all, they are called national forests
for a reason.
Over the last decade, we have spent $6 billion on wildfire
risk reduction work, and $38 billion, six times that much, on
wildfire response and recovery. It just makes sense, Mr.
Chairman. It takes $50,000 an acre to fight a fire. It is a lot
cheaper to be able to do it on the front end than that. If we
do not invest now in wildfire mitigation and watershed
restoration and the Federal workforce tasked with doing that
work, it will cost us hundreds of billions of dollars a year in
firefighting and recovery costs in the coming decade, to say
nothing of the damage to our infrastructure, to our way of
life.
I have told Chuck Schumer over and over and over again, Mr.
Chairman, these national forests are more important to us from
an infrastructure perspective than the Lincoln Tunnel is to New
York. He does not necessarily agree with that, but it is true.
Do not tell him I said that.
We have to get serious about this. No level of government
can tackle this alone. I am very grateful, Mr. Chairman, for
this hearing today, and I look forward to hearing from our
excellent witnesses and working with my colleagues of both
parties to protect our forests, our communities, and our
future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Marshall. Well, thank you, Senator Bennet.
Unfortunately, we are not able to have a representative from
USDA here to testify on the Fix Our Forests Act. However, the
Committee has received written testimony from the USDA
detailing the Forest Service's views of the legislative
proposal, as well as additional letters of support. I request
unanimous consent to submit this testimony and these letters
for the record as part of my opening statement. Without
objection, so ordered.
[The letters can be found on page 80-124 in the appendix.]
Chairman Marshall. We will turn to our introductions now.
Senator Schiff is not here, so I am going to introduce Mr. Matt
Weiner. Matt Weiner is the CEO and Founder of Megafire Action,
the first nonprofit organization focused solely on advancing
policy solutions to the megafire crisis. He has held senior
roles in the U.S. Congress and California State Legislature,
most recently as the Executive Director of California's
Democratic Congressional Delegation in the House of
Representatives, where he was responsible for advancing the
delegation's statewide policy priorities.
Next, I believe the Ranking Member is going to introduce
two of his constituents from Colorado.
Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my pleasure
to introduce the two witnesses that I invited to testify at
today's hearing. Both witnesses are incredibly knowledgeable
and understand the importance of forest management and the work
that goes into stewarding our public lands. I have invited them
to be here today to speak about their experience in wildfire
mitigation and share their perspectives on the importance of
investing in land management projects and agencies.
Our first witness, Commissioner Jonathan Houck, is
currently serving as Gunnison County Commissioner, a position
he has held since 2013. He is a lifelong public servant. Well,
actually it says longtime public servant, but I also know he is
a lifelong public servant, first serving on the City Planning
and Zoning Commission, then for two terms on the Gunnison City
Council, which included serving as Mayor. I have known
Commissioner Houck for over a decade, and he has been kind
enough to invite me to his county over and over again to hike,
camp, and fish numerous times.
One of the first things you notice about when you visit
Gunnison County, which is, by the way, about 1\1/2\ times the
size of the State of Delaware, is that its national forests are
foundational to its economy and core to the identity of the
people who live there. Forests in Gunnison County supply timber
to the last remaining timber whip mill on the Western Slope. It
attracts visitors from around the world with over 1,000 miles
of trails and produces oil and gas and coal. I cannot think of
anybody better here to talk about the value of forests to rural
western communities.
I thank also Frank Beum, who is here as well. Mr. Beum
formerly served as the Regional Forestry for the Rocky Mountain
region, where I had the pleasure of working with him. He is now
a member of the Board of Directors for the National Association
of Forest Service Retirees. Mr. Beum has worked at every level
of the Forest Service, starting his first role as a seasonal
forestry technician in the Rio Grande National Forest and later
serving as a Legislative Specialist in the Washington office.
Notwithstanding that experience, he was willing to come here
and testify. These are just two examples among the many other
roles that have given him the unique perspective to understand
the deep importance of the work done at all levels of the
Forest Service. We are delighted that he is here today.
Mr. Chairman, I will turn it back over to you.
Chairman Marshall. All right. Thank you, Senator Bennet.
I am going to next introduce Mr. Tim Vredenburg, originally
from southwest Oregon, for the last 20 years, he has assisted
private landowners and Indian tribes manage forestlands while
navigating challenging issues like wildfire, endangered
species, and an ever changing regulatory landscape. Since 2012,
he served as the Cow Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians as
their Director of Forest Management. In his current capacities,
he is working to develop an expanded timberland base that will
provide for the cultural and economic well-being of the tribe
for many generations to come.
Next, I would like to introduce Mr. Robert Gordon. Mr.
Gordon is the Senior Vice President, Policy, Research and
International for the American Property Casualty Insurance
Association. He is responsible for working with the
association's members to develop and frame public policy
positions on the opportunities and challenges facing the
property casualty insurance industry at the State, Federal, and
international levels. Previously, Mr. Gordon was the
Parliamentarian, Senior Counsel, and Ethics Compliance Officer
for the Committee on Financial Services in the U.S. House of
Representatives.
Now, we will turn to our witness testimony. Again, thank
you to all the witnesses for being here and the time preparing.
Mr. Weiner, you are now recognized for your statement.
STATEMENT OF MATT WEINER, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MEGAFIRE
ACTION
Mr. Weiner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and distinguished
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
testify today. My name is Matt Weiner, and I am the Founder and
CEO of Megafire Action, a nonprofit organization founded on a
simple premise, megafire is solvable, and therefore,
policymakers have an obligation to do more to solve it.
As we saw in January, the megafire crisis is continuing to
accelerate, and our systems are continuing to be overwhelmed
year after year. This is a nonpartisan emergency that requires
a bipartisan response, and the Fix Our Forests Act is an
excellent place to start.
Before I dive into the support for the bill, I want to make
one thing clear. We cannot fix our forests if we have nobody to
fix our forests. For decades, we have completely failed our
workforce, especially our wildland firefighters, who have been
asked to do too much with too little for far too long. The
current firings and freezing are only making things worse, but
this is a longstanding problem. It is appalling that we are
continuing to put our firefighters in this position, and a
permanent, well-resourced Federal wildfire workforce remains an
urgent need, and Congress should step in to stop the bleeding.
On the bill, there is a lot to like about the Fix Our
Forests Act, but we see it largely as focused on two
challenges: permitting reform and technology adoption, both
essential to scaling up effective wildfire mitigation.
Let me start with permitting reform. We know selective
thinning and prescribed fire can restore ecosystem balance and
reduce risk, yet we are nowhere near meeting the scale that is
needed. Last year, the Forest Service treated 800,000 acres of
the highest-risk landscapes, which was a record high, but is
still far short of the millions of acres a year needed to reach
our targets.
We know that treatment saves money. Senators, I have before
you a slide deck from our friends at Vibrant Planet that
underscores the value of mitigation investments. A recent
analysis by them found that $76 million in projects protected
$2.1 billion in structures. The ROI is undeniable.
One major barrier to this is the slow and costly permitting
process. The Forest Service estimates that planning and
assessments consume 40 percent of direct work and can
frequently lead to years of delays in getting projects off the
ground.
I do want to note that there are legitimate reasons to be
concerned about changes to NEPA. Lessons forged in the timber
wars will not and should not be easily forgotten, but the facts
on the ground have changed, and our policies need to adapt. We
have seen that cutting red tape can get results. The 10,000
acre categorical exclusions for fuels reduction in the Lake
Tahoe Basin sped up treatment, helping stop the Caldor Fire
before it reached South Lake Tahoe. After losing 20 percent of
the world's giant sequoias to wildfires, the Forest Service
expedited NEPA review in 2022, enabling the Giant Sequoia Lands
Coalition to treat 54 percent of growth within just a few
years.
Just last week, President Trump and Gavin Newsom both took
emergency action to remove regulatory hurdles and accelerate
fuels treatment on public lands. The people in charge of
managing risk understand that they need to get at this problem,
and the Fix Our Forests Act compliments these emergency
declarations by codifying in statute a process to ensure that
these efforts are targeted and successful.
The bill expands limits on CEs from 3,000 to 10,000 acres,
providing land managers with flexibility to move beyond small
random acts of mitigation and toward strategic landscape-level
projects needed to move the needle in a serious way. By
focusing on the highest risk landscapes and the most impactful
treatments identified through the fireshed assessments, the
reforms in this bill target the most critical work on the
ground.
Over the last few years, we have seen an explosion of
technology companies offering solutions at every phase of fire.
This is not a hypothetical where we need to go, but the
scalable technology already exists to make taxpayer-funded
programs more effective and help us reach our goals faster,
cheaper, and better. Yet these tools remain fragmented across
more than 50 Federal programs with strained budgets, leaving
the government unable to effectively deploy tech for those who
need it most when they need it most.
The Fix Our Forests Act addresses this by creating a
Fireshed Center to improve wildfire decision-making across
prevention, suppression, and recovery. There is currently no
single entity responsible for evaluating, understanding, and
acting on risk across jurisdictions and landscapes in the
United States. Like a combat support agency at DoD, this center
will integrate real-time intelligence, predictive modeling, and
risk assessments to support firefighters, land managers, and
communities, and we need to ensure that the agency is built to
move fast.
Beyond the center, we strongly support the Wildfire
Technology Testbed Program in the bill to spur private sector
innovation. Scaling these solutions quickly is absolutely
critical. To maximize impact, Congress should consider
expanding this provision to include deployment and authorize
existing funds for wildfire technology acquisition.
In conclusion, the Fix Our Forests Act will move the
Federal Government toward a more proactive, science-driven
approach to wildfire management. The bipartisan effort, led by
Chairman Westerman and Representative Peters, has produced a
solid product, and I look forward to working with the Committee
to strengthen and refine this bill to maximize its impact.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and I look
forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Weiner can be found on pages
34-43 in the appendix.]
Chairman Marshall. Thank you so much.
Mr. Beum, you are recognized.
STATEMENT OF FRANK R. BEUM, RETIRED REGIONAL FORESTER, ROCKY
MOUNTAIN REGION, MEMBER OF BOARD OF DIRECTORS, NATIONAL
ASSOCIATION OF FOREST SERVICE RETIREES
Mr. Beum. Thank you. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member
Klobuchar, Chairman Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and
Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify
today. I am Frank Beum, and I serve on the Board of Directors
of the National Association of Forest Service Retirees. We are
a nonpartisan, professional, and science-based organization
comprising over 900 Forest Service Retirees and associates
dedicated to adapting to the challenges of today and tomorrow.
Our members understand the importance of fiscal
responsibility, efficiency, and cost reductions, but we are
gravely concerned about the impacts to essential services
caused by recent actions to cut the Forest Service field-going
workforce. Steeper cuts to staff and programs are expected,
which will significantly impede the ability of the agency to
deliver critical goods and services to the American people.
This includes the work outlined in the Fix Our Forests Act.
I retired from the Forest Service in May 2024, 43 years
after my first day as a seasonal forestry technician. I worked
in the woods, thinning tree stands with a chainsaw, marking
timber sales, and taking care of wilderness and recreation
areas before I moved into leadership roles, as Senator Bennet
mentioned.
Turning to the act, in January 2024, NAFSR and 36 other
organizations representing millions of outdoor enthusiasts sent
a letter to Speaker of the House Mike Johnson and Minority
Leader Hakeem Jeffries supporting the Fix Our Forests Act. This
legislation would provide land managers with tools desperately
needed to strengthen the role of States, Tribes, local
government, collaborative groups, and other partners in forest
management. It will help the Forest Service staff plan and
implement more projects to reduce the threat of the wildfire
crisis.
However, recent cuts imposed by the Department of
Government Efficiency will make it very difficult to deliver on
the promise of the legislation. These indiscriminate
reductions, along with nearly 1,000 staff who took deferred
resignations, are hollowing out the agency and jeopardizing the
future of America's forests. Ranchers, miners, loggers,
campers, hikers, skiers, hunters, anglers, and people who just
simply value clean drinking water will feel the impacts.
Over 180 million people in more than 68,000 communities
rely on national forests for the drinking water. Spending by
visitors to national forests and grasslands contributes about
$10.3 billion annually to the U.S. economy and sustains more
than 140,000 family wage jobs that are the foundation of many
rural communities. All of this is at risk due to sweeping,
random staffing cuts that threaten the future of our public
land heritage.
I have several examples to share. Approximately 3,400
Forest Service employees with less than one year of service in
their positions, mostly field-going forestry technicians, were
designated for firing simply because they were easy targets.
Many of those fired were military veterans, hired through
special authorities as a recognition of their service to our
country. More than 75 percent of those dismissed employees had
wildland fire qualifications, including on-the-ground
firefighting, not just support roles, but on-the-ground, boots-
on-the-ground firefighting.
A couple other quick examples, six of seven members of a
timber strike team in the Rocky Mountain region were fired, and
several individuals hired to work on Hurricane Helene recovery
in North Carolina and Georgia were also fired. Now, some of
these employees that were hastily fired are being brought back
to do important work, but please do not underestimate that this
uncertainty has damaged morale and slowed work in wildland fire
prevention, timber management, and fire and storm recovery. As
a result, thousands of communities will face greater wildfire
risks as planned fuel reduction projects will go uncompleted.
Businesses reliant on forest-related goods and services will
suffer, and the agency will struggle to meet the
administration's goal of wood independence.
The Forest Service, of course, works for the executive
branch, and the Forest Service has always adjusted to
priorities of incoming administration. Some of these cuts will
make it difficult to do so. If the Forest Service continues to
be hollowed out and can no longer provide essential services,
there may be calls to move these lands to States, counties, or
private ownership.
President Teddy Roosevelt had it right. Public lands belong
to all Americans and should be managed under Federal
protection. Public lands held in public trust is a uniquely
American ideal, and they are the envy of the world. Forest
Service employees are real people, family, friends, and
neighbors, dedicated to caring for the land and delivering
services to the American people. They are dedicated public
servants who protect and conserve these lands. Without them to
do their work, our natural heritage will be lost, and the
intent of Fix Our Forests Act cannot be delivered.
I want to just leave you with two thoughts. One, we
strongly support Fix Our Forests Act, and we are concerned that
the Forest Service will not be able to deliver upon that act
without critical resources and staff. With that, I thank you
again for the opportunity to testify, and I welcome your
questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Beum can be found on pages
44-46 in the appendix.]
Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Beum.
Mr. Vredenburg, you are recognized for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF TIM VREDENBURG, DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF FOREST
MANAGEMENT, COW CREEK BAND OF UMPQUA TRIBE OF INDIANS
Mr. Vredenburg. Chair Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and
respected Members of the Committee, thank you for the
opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Tim Vredenburg,
and I serve as the Director of Forest Management for the Cow
Creek Umpqua Tribe of Indians located in Roseburg, Oregon. I am
here to express the tribe's support for H.R. 471, the Fix Our
Forests Act. We believe that this legislation is a critical
step in addressing the ever-growing wildfire crisis.
The Cow Creek Umpqua is a tribe of just over 2,000 members.
Their lands are nested in a checkerboard of private, State, and
mostly Federal lands. Over the last 10 years, catastrophic
wildfires have burned nearly 20 percent of their reservation
and 1.1 million acres of their ancestral area. The majority of
the highest intensity fires have been on the Federal lands in
the areas that excluded management. Fires are returning to the
same places two, three, even four times, destroying the native
ecosystems and replacing them with invasive species.
Our beautiful places, once lush, green forest, clean cold
water, places that I spent time with my family hunting, hiking,
fishing, they are destroyed. These fires have decimated tribal
lands and driven tribal members from their homes again and
again. This is why the Cow Creek Tribe is committed to an
approach of forest management, not just on their lands, but on
the neighboring Federal lands as well.
You see, historic conditions, which were guided by tribal
management, supported 35 to 50 trees per acre, with a
scattering of open meadows. Today, many areas have over 1,500
trees per acre. This has exceeded the carrying capacity of our
forests. It has created unprecedented fuel loads, destabilized
above-ground carbon, and limited water resources. Fires that
once burned in a beneficial way now explode in catastrophic
infernos that burn so hot that they completely sterilize the
soil.
We need regulatory certainty. The Cottonwood decision has
created uncertainty for our land managers. The Fix Our Forests
Act addresses this and presents an opportunity to update
woefully out-of-date land management plans. Agencies fail to do
plan revisions because it takes too much time and they are too
expensive. One of the biggest challenges we face is the
lengthy, bureaucratic review process. We need to streamline
this process, and we must implement forest restoration projects
at a landscape scale. We have hundreds of thousands of acres of
land just around the Cow Creek reservation that need treated
right now.
We appreciate that the act expands categorical exclusions
to allow for projects up to 10,000 acres, that it modifies the
Good Neighbor Authority, empowering tribes to reinvest in
future forest restoration projects, and that it acknowledges
the value of cultural burning. The tribal provisions are a good
start, and it is worth exploring new ways to leverage the
passion, expertise, and the fervent will of our tribal
partners. If asked and activated, tribes can vastly improve and
amplify the quality and impact of the Federal Land Managers.
This is not just about our forests; it is about clean
water, healthy air, wildlife, recreation, and livable
communities. Each catastrophic fire that burns leaves behind
degraded soils, damaged fish habitats, hazardous smoke, smoke
that fills the lungs of our children.
Approach the crisis with innovation and out-of-the-box
thinking. Consider expanding the law to protect even more
forests. Specifically, the Forest Service should consider the
proximity of tribal lands when designating high-priority
firesheds, not just a structure count.
This has to be a bipartisan effort. Unnecessary controversy
surrounding forest management has become the kryptonite of
forest health. We need to fundamentally rethink how we manage
our Federal forestlands. To save our forests, we must manage
them, and we must manage them in their entirety. Tribes have
long been stewards of these lands. We must move beyond the
short-term fixes and embrace real, large-scale solutions.
I urge the Members of the Committee on both sides of the
aisle to pass meaningful legislation that empowers those of us
on the ground to act quickly because we can break free of this
cycle of catastrophic wildfire. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Vredenburg can be found on
pages 47-50 in the appendix.]
Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Vredenburg.
Mr. Houck, you are recognized for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF HON. JONATHAN HOUCK, COUNTY COMMISSIONER, BOARD OF
COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, GUNNISON COUNTY, COLORADO
Mr. Houck. Thank you, Chairman Marshall and Ranking Member
Bennet and Members of the Subcommittee, and thank you for the
opportunity to testify today, especially at this key moment of
crisis for our Federal Land Management Agencies. I am a County
Commissioner representing Gunnison County, Colorado, and like
most residents of Gunnison County, I am dedicated to the
stewardship of our cherished Federal public lands.
Gunnison County comprises 2.1 million acres, 1.7 of which
are Federal public lands managed by the Forest Service, the
Bureau of Land Management, and the National Park Service. To
put that in perspective, as Senator Bennet did, we are 1\1/2\
times the size of the State of Delaware and 80 percent are
Federal public lands. Gunnison County public lands are home to
the State's largest body of water, the largest coal mine, ski
area, and source of the marble that was used for the Lincoln
Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Gunnison County is
headwaters of the Gunnison River, the second-largest tributary
to the Colorado River system.
In Gunnison County, our public lands are everything to us.
They are the foundation of our economy, our culture, our
values, and our way of life. We take seriously our commitment
to working with our Federal partners to support stewardship of
these public lands, not only for the residents of Gunnison
County, but for all Americans, and not just for today, but for
the future as well.
I have submitted written testimony expressing my views on
the Fix Our Forests Act, and I appreciate you making that part
of the record.
As I explain more fully in my written testimony, the bill
is a compilation of a variety of provisions, making technical
amendments to a variety of forest laws, codifying existing
programs, granting new authorities, fine-tuning directions, and
calling for new studies, many of which would be helpful
improvements. It also includes a variety of NEPA categorical
exclusions, restrictions on judicial review, and limitations on
consultations under the ESA that would be harmful to the
science-based community collaboration that has been the
hallmark of our success in public land decisionmaking in
Gunnison County.
We depend on NEPA to guarantee that our community has a
seat at the table to work in an informed and cooperative manner
with the Forest Service to generate the best alternatives for
achieving desired conditions in our forest. We depend on
proactive approaches to conserving species so we can avoid
listing them. While litigation is an extremely rare occurrence,
we know that none of that is possible if the rule of law and
the potential for its enforcement by the courts is not
respected.
Our situation in Gunnison County is both illustrative and
not unusual. As just two examples we have collaboratively
developed in recent years, two significant projects to increase
forest resilience and provide wood products to the market. The
Taylor Park Vegetation Management Plan and a Spruce Beetle and
Aspen Decline Project were both designated to be implemented
over a decade and cover tens of thousands of acres of national
forestland. They were collaboratively developed under NEPA and
in accordance with the ESA with a broad group of local
stakeholders.
Those laws are not the problem. Forest Service capacity to
implement them is the problem. Those who know the Forest
Service already knew the agency had a significant staffing
crisis. The firing of hundreds of staff in Colorado over the
last few weeks has intensified that crisis considerably.
In Gunnison County alone, between probationary firings and
the hiring freeze for both open positions and seasonal
employees, the Forest Service alone is short more than 50
employees that are critical to carrying out the most basic of
operations. This is significant and represents the issues in
just one of Colorado's 64 counties. Those fired and those
seasonal employees who have had their upcoming contracts
rescinded are hardworking Americans that mark timber sales,
clear trails, perform fire patrol, issue grazing permits,
prepare mineral leases, clean bathrooms, and assist visitors.
We must stop this destruction and repair the substantial
damage that has already been done as the first critical
priority. If not stopped, these efforts will destroy our
Federal Land Management Agencies, and ultimately, the
communities like mine that depend on them to manage our public
lands.
In other times, the issues compiled in the Fix Our Forests
Act would be of significant interest to Gunnison County, but
right now--and I know I can speak for many of my fellow County
Commissioners in Colorado and perhaps many across the West--
there are critical things we need from Congress regarding our
public lands. Here is what we desperately need from Congress
for our public lands.
We need leadership to stop the destructive, arbitrary, and
inhumane firings of our Federal Land Managers, work with
communities to identify areas for increased efficiency and
increased capacity. It is worth noting, when seasonal personnel
are not hired, that impact actually ripples into the private
sector since their other seasonal employment is often tied to
other essential needs in our small rural communities.
Additionally, do not discount the gut punch to morale to those
who have not been eliminated and the increased anxiety created
by the current administration's approach to staffing.
Finally, what is happening now with the firings and the
upcoming reduction in force actions will have a lasting and
chilling effect on the future of those contemplating a career
service in our public land agencies. If the true goal is to fix
our forests, then please start by fighting for the restoration
of the most basic staffing levels, both full-time and seasonal,
to do the good work already underway. Existing timber sales,
planned vegetation management actions, grazing permit renewals,
and other already-approved actions that will contribute to
healthier forest, better outcomes, and less wildfire are in
jeopardy right now because the workforce that carries out those
operations has been decimated.
We cannot fix our forests without a skilled, dedicated,
professional workforce, not only at the Forest Service, but
also at the BLM and the Park Service. This is the critical work
that desperately needs attention. None of this should be
controversial or partisan. It is certainly not in Gunnison
County.
Thank you again for the opportunity to testify. I would be
happy to answer any questions you have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Houck can be found on pages
51-61 in the appendix.]
Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Houck.
Next, Mr. Gordon, you are recognized for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF ROBERT GORDON, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, POLICY,
RESEARCH AND INTERNATIONAL, AMERICAN PROPERTY CASUALTY
INSURANCE ASSOCIATION
Mr. Gordon. Chairman Marshall and Ranking Member Bennet,
thank you for holding today's hearing. I am Robert Gordon, the
Senior Vice President of Policy, Research and International for
the American Property Casualty Insurance Association. APCIA
represents over 2/3 of the United States' home, auto and
business property casualty insurance market. APCIA strongly
supports the bipartisan Fix Our Forests Act.
The California wildfires earlier this year caused between
$95-275 billion in economic losses, one of the worst wildfire
events in history. Insurers have already expedited over $6.9
billion in payments to help families and businesses recover,
and we expect to ultimately provide between $40-50 billion in
relief. That is roughly three times the homeowners' premiums
for the entire State for the entire year, and the regular
summer fire season has not yet even begun.
Now, wildfires are endemic in the United States. There is
an average of roughly 70,000 wildfires per year over the last
four decades, but catastrophic wildfire losses to communities,
known as conflagrations, have dramatically escalated.
Conflagration losses over the last decade caused five times as
much damage as in prior decades. Now, there are a number of
reasons those losses are increasing so much. A majority of new
homes are being built in areas that are at high fire risk,
particularly in the wildland-urban interface next to forests
and other natural landscapes. In fact, in just the last year,
residential property exposures in the United States at high
risk of wildfire losses increased nearly 23 percent in just one
year.
Inflation, particularly for building materials and lumber,
has skyrocketed. The estimated cost of replacing all the
buildings in the United States more than doubled over the last
decade. Worsening weather severity is exacerbating
precipitation and drought cycles that increase dry brush and
fuel loads, so the climate is having a particular impact on
wildfires. Legal system abuse is compounding the disaster
costs, and we are now seeing 87 percent of wildfires are caused
by humans, accidentally or intentionally, with an increasing
number of the costliest and deadliest wildfires triggered by
utility equipment sparking during severe winds.
Without more proactive mitigation, disaster preparedness,
and better coordinated response, these factors are going to
continue to drive escalating wildfire losses, damaging
ecosystems and the environment, and putting upward pressure on
the cost of homeowner's insurance and the cost of government
disaster aid.
Insurers are doing our part to develop solutions. Insurers
have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the Insurance
Institute for Business and Home Safety, IBHS. IBHS has
developed safety and mitigation standards for properties,
including fortified standards to protect against wind and
wildfire-prepared home standards to protect against
conflagrations. Insurers also participated in the
congressionally established Wildland Fire Mitigation and
Management Commission, including our APCIA CEO, and they made
over 100 recommendations, including support for the IBHS
wildfire safety standards.
The Fix Our Forests Act incorporates many of those
recommendations, including requiring government coordination
for wildfire prediction, response, and recovery; supporting
local adoption of fire-resistant building methods, codes, and
standards; encouraging better fuel reduction; and supporting
more resilient utility infrastructure. Those are all very
important.
Last December, Congress provided $110 billion in disaster
assistance, and California just requested another $40 billion
for January's wildfires. Unless we invest more up front in
wildfire mitigation, as both the Chairman and Ranking Member
have underscored, taxpayers are going to keep getting stuck
with ever-increasing costs for disaster response and recovery.
More people are going to lose their homes and communities,
insurance losses are going to skyrocket, and housing will be
less affordable.
APCIA and insurers strongly support the bipartisan Fix Our
Forests Act to make those upfront investments. The act builds
on extensive safety research by insurers, the IBHS, the
Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management Commission, and would
facilitate implementation of proven safety standards and needed
government coordination.
APCIA and insurers look forward to partnering with Members
of the Subcommittee to advance this legislation and work on
wildfire protections. We thank you for your leadership, and I
look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Gordon can be found on pages
62-78 in the appendix.]
Chairman Marshall. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Gordon.
I am going to ask just one question, and then we will turn
to the Ranking Member, and then I will come back at the end and
ask some questions if they were not picked up.
I want to start by recognizing the great work that
Congressman Bruce Westerman from the State of Arkansas has done
on this, as well as Congressman Scott Peters from California.
Bruce is absolutely a subject expert on this, and he has been a
great teacher, and I recognize the Ranking Member's expertise
on this subject as well.
I will just have one question to start with, and it is for
Mr. Vredenburg. Many people mischaracterize categorical
exclusions as an end run around NEPA. Can you explain why
larger categorical exclusions are critically needed and will
help mitigate future catastrophic fires while still ensuring
proper environmental reviews?
Mr. Vredenburg. Yes. Thank you, Chairman. I will give an
example. The Cow Creek Tribe has a cooperative agreement under
the Tribal Forest Protection Act, working with the Umpqua
National Forest on attempting to restore and reduce the risk of
fire to the Cow Creek Umpqua reservation. As we approach that
problem, it is a scale of hundreds of thousands of acres that
we are trying to treat. What we are practically doing is having
to piece together small categorical exclusions because, you
know, traditional environmental assessments just take years,
years and years to get through. Categorical exclusions are not
fast, but they are our most rapid solution to address the
problem.
We are looking at a watershed right now that is about
10,000 acres. We would have to try and piece together several
different categorical exclusions, trying to make sure they are
not interdependent, interrelated, that we are not stacking
those, that there is separation, and it really ties our hands.
What practically happens is we do not get to treat the areas
that need to be treated.
Chairman Marshall. Thank you. I will turn to Senator Bennet
next.
Senator Bennet. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
As we were walking in here this morning, there was I think
a Federal court ruling some place delaying the firings of the
Forest Service employees that we are talking about at least for
45 days. That is, I suppose, a shred of comfort, but that is
going to also add its own levels of uncertainty. I wanted to
ask Frank Beum and the Commissioner, if you could tell us a
little bit specifically how these staffing shortages, the
hiring freezes, the recent round of firings are going to affect
fire management on the landscape today. What do we need to
worry about in terms of just this coming summer and the work
that has to be taken to prepare us for that and to fight the
fires that are coming?
Frank, when you talk about this, could you talk a little
bit about the importance of red cards and what that means for
people as well?
Mr. Beum. Yes, Senator, thank you. As I mentioned in my
testimony, about 75 percent of the probationary employees that
were removed have fire qualifications. They are given on a card
that is red. That is why it is called red card. You have a red
card that lists your qualifications you are trained to do. Most
of those folks that were eliminated or dismissed during their
probationary period are field-going forestry technicians that
typically have some red card qualifications often to do on-the-
ground firefighting, not just support. We know primary
firefighters with that in the position description were not
removed, but collateral-duty firefighters, which is a backbone
of the fire suppression effort, as well as prescribed fire,
were removed. Those are our red card employees.
That is going to be a massive impact on the ability of the
fire--I am going to use the broader Fire Service, which is all
the Federal agencies, State agencies, and others to do fire
suppression work this year. It is going to have a pretty big
impact. Thank you.
Senator Bennet. Commissioner Houck?
Mr. Houck. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think,
interestingly, the perspective I bring is someone who actually
has the ability to, day in and day out, walk into the district
rangers' office at the Forest Service or the BLM or the Park
Service. The big concern that we see in Gunnison County
currently is that there are many already approved projects.
These are timber sales, these are habitat restoration projects,
this is on-the-ground trail work that is mitigating fire danger
that is approved for this upcoming year, and they do not have
the staff on the ground to do these projects.
I would like to maybe step back to a point that you made in
your introductory comments. It is the partnerships in
communities that make a difference. For a good example, our
trail crews are funded through State funds, through the
Colorado Parks and Wildlife OHV funds, and that money comes to
the Forest Service and allows them to do projects which include
vegetation management. They cannot hire that trail crew even
though the funding comes from a source other than the Federal
Government. I am hearing that from the foresters in our
district. They will not have the forestry technicians to go out
and mark the sales that have already approved, that have been
through a NEPA process and are part of these larger projects
that I spoke of in my opening comments.
We have a lot of veterans that work on the forests in
Gunnison County. A lot of these veterans have lost their jobs.
One thing that I am really happy about to see in Colorado is
how many veterans come to Colorado, connect to outdoor spaces,
and the work that they do, the soul-satisfying work they do is
connected to public lands. Some of them have lost their jobs as
well.
When I look at what we have on slate for just this coming
summer, I have concerns that now we are going to start
backlogging already a place where we are struggling to keep up
due to the lack of resources before the firings.
I would make one last comment that the deferred
resignations, though, not hugely impactful right in the
Gunnison field office, but I think of the neighboring White
River National Forest in the route. We had three folks that
retired who were senior level that when type one teams need to
be deployed for fires and things of that nature, they are the
leadership that runs the team. I would say to Frank's comments
about red card members, a lot of the folks that have been
eliminated recently are red card holders, and they are part of
the firefighting process in our community.
Senator Bennet. I would just say to the Chairman and to the
Chairman, the Secretary of Agriculture, who is from Texas, has
said that she does not think that they have laid off or fired
any firefighting personnel. You have heard today that is
actually not the case, that Frank Beum described some of the
people that have been laid off as the backbone of our
firefighting efforts.
I think I would speak for everybody if I can for once, for
Colorado, who is a Democrat or a Republican, we got to get
these people back on the ground. We do not have 45 days to do
the planning that is required. This is an emergency that we are
facing today, and we would love your help in trying to at least
pause this so that we can get to the other side of it.
By the way--I will stop here--that does nothing to deal
with the underlying problems that have existed in our western
States for years in terms of paying firefighters what they are
due to begin with. We have got to find a way to work together
to solve that problem as well.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Marshall. Yes, thank you, Senator Bennet. Chairman
Boozman.
Chairman Boozman. Thank you very much. I want to thank you
and Senator Bennet for the great job that you are doing with
the Subcommittee and your staffs. You really jumped in last
year and this year and really are making a difference.
As always, it is great to be with our fearless leader, Amy.
We appreciate her and always.
Senator Hoeven. Are you talking about Marshall or----
Chairman Boozman. Well, I am not talking about you, John.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Boozman. Mr. Gordon, as your testimony mentioned,
there are more than 44 million homes in the wildland-urban
interface at risk of wildfire. Can you please talk about how
the provisions of FOFA, including allowing hazardous tree
removal within 150 feet of a utility right-of-way, can help
address this problem and make communities safer? I have heard
in people discussing the bill, they wonder, why are things like
that in there? Why is that important?
Mr. Gordon. It is very important. A lot of the Federal
wildfire programs are currently very fragmented and can be very
challenging for all the individuals and communities and
governments to navigate and access all of the wildfire
resources, and so it is very important to have the FOFA to
coordinate all the stakeholders and resources, support land use
planning, adoption of building codes, supporting protection of
critical watersheds and water delivery infrastructure. The
various programs would also coordinate with the State and local
agencies, including for grant assistance. We think FOFA is
very, very important and look forward to doing anything we can
to help you advance it.
Chairman Boozman. Very good. Senator Marshall mentioned the
categorical exclusions that are part of NEPA and really ask
about increased categorical exclusions, how they effectively
help manage our Nation's forests. Does anybody disagree with
that on the panel? Go ahead.
Mr. Houck. Yes, thank you, Senator. I would not say I would
disagree, but in doing my research for the presentation today
and in speaking with those at the agency, categorical
exclusions are--currently, north of 80 percent of most projects
are excluded from--categorical exclusions are used and using
those to not have to go through the full NEPA process. You
know, from someone on the ground and at a local level, the
concern is that moving further and further away for these
larger projects from that community involvement, you start to
lose the social engagement and the social license from the
communities most directly impacted and finding a way to make
sure that categorical exclusions are handled in a way that is
beneficial but also--and they are a great tool, but I am
concerned about the larger projects being--CEs being used to
sidestep some of the good public participation that happens
through a full NEPA process.
Chairman Boozman. Are you concerned about the process being
so cumbersome, though, that for some of these bigger projects,
it is almost impossible to get done just because of the
bureaucracy involved and the abilities to play the system in a
different way?
Mr. Houck. Senator, thank you for that. I would respond
that, you know, my experience in a rural western public lands
county, that participation on the front end has been robust
enough that we have seen less litigation. We have seen less
kind of playing the system or gaming the system, sir, as maybe
you referred to it. I want to acknowledge that I think that is
a challenge to overcome. I think my position, and as you will
see in my written comments that are much more in depth, the
concern would be that by weakening that social license with
communities, you will actually potentially see more litigation
and more things that hamstring these projects in the long run
by not having that more robust public input up front that NEPA
often affords. At least for my community, I have noticed, it
has been very beneficial.
Chairman Boozman. Yes, one of the things that I have
noticed, and I think anybody that has been around this at all,
is how different forests are managed throughout the country.
You know, it is great that you have got, you know, a good
experience and working hard and, you know, everybody kind of
gets along. That is certainly not the case every place, you
know, so--thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Marshall. All right. Thank you, Chairman. Senator
Klobuchar.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank
you, Senator Bennet, for this great and timely hearing. I wish
we did not have to focus on it because I wish we did not have
this many fires. We are here, and we need to do everything we
can. I look at Senator Schiff there with what he and his
constituents went through with the fires in California, what we
have seen in Colorado. We know that these fires pose the
greatest threat in the West, but it is also important to know
that these fires have not spared other parts of the country.
I remember flying in a helicopter over the forests of
northern Minnesota and seeing the areas burn 90,000 acres, the
Pagami Fire, the largest Minnesota wildfire in nearly a
century. Wildfires, including the Greenwood Fire once again
burned across northern Minnesota. Of course, we, like so many
of the Northern States, have our people get the air from Canada
from those horrendous fires that burned for months and months
and months.
Recent investments by Congress have led to the Forest
Service that have been really important, the Collaborative
Wildfire Risk Reduction Program funding two projects in the
Superior National Forest to reduce hazardous fuels and create
strategic fuel breaks, which I am sure you agree it is just the
kind of thing we need to be doing. Unfortunately, these
projects and others carried out by the Forest Service and its
partners have been disrupted due to the widespread funding
freeze. I look forward to hearing from all of you today on
this, but also on the Fix Our Forests Act and ways we should
strengthen the bill to ensure that wildfire responses are
directed to the areas most in need, changes to the review
process are targeted and allow for community input--Senator
Bennet mentioned this--and that the Forest Service has the
necessary funding and personnel to perform the additional and
important wildfire mitigation.
My first question would be of you, Mr. Houck. Can you
discuss the importance of Federal funding to accomplish more
restoration work, and how does this assistance help counties
and other local units carry out wildfire mitigation?
Mr. Houck. Thank you, Senator, and thank you for the
question. Indeed, as I said in my opening comments, some of the
lack of funding and lack of programs--the programs that are
being funded are being well utilized, but there is still a
shortage of funding, and there is still a shortage of resources
and capacity on the ground. Many communities such as mine have
had the ability to get projects into the pipeline. Funding and
workforce tend to be the issues that get in the way of those.
You know, the Good Neighbor Authority, I am very happy to
see that. I know you have been a long-time champion of the Good
Neighbor Authority----
Senator Klobuchar. Exactly.
Mr. Houck [continuing]. and thank you.
Senator Klobuchar. You are welcome.
Mr. Houck. Section 111----
Senator Klobuchar. It has like the best name of any bill.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Houck. It is great to see that in--and I think that is
very positive for that. It reinstates and restates with the
EXPLORE Act covered, which is counties and tribes have the
ability to use the Good Neighbor Authority to its best extent.
I would also offer that funding of those kind of programs and
expansion of those programs within communities then also allows
us--and I think the insurance businesses have seen this--when
we can enact higher levels of local regulation around building
and wildfire protections, we are levering these different
inputs in our community for better things that our citizens can
take advantage of, and then being able to create fire-wise
communities, work in the WUI, and make sure that that work is
done quickly and efficiently.
Senator Klobuchar. Mr. Beum, I have long supported
permitting reform as long as it is done in the right way.
Currently, many Forest Service projects are carried out using
expedited permitting authorities, and any additional
flexibilities, I would like to see a focus on those facing
wildfire risk. Are there targeted improvements to the
permitting process this Committee should consider that could
lead to more active forest management?
Mr. Beum. Well, what I would say is that we have been
working--when I was still working, we worked closely with Fish
and Wildlife Service on ESA compliance and other issues with
historic preservation that we really do need to find ways to be
more proactive, quicker in that work, and there are some
efficiencies I believe we can find. I know the agency was
working hard on that, and we could certainly do more with that.
Senator Klobuchar. During your tenure as Regional Forester
of the Rocky Mountain region, did you feel like the Forest
Service having fewer staff and resources would help it
accomplish more work? I know it is a really tough question.
Mr. Beum. Yes, thanks for the softball. No, ma'am.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Beum. What I would say additionally is that, if I were
chief for a day, I would flip the organization chart upside
down and put the districts at the top of our organization. That
is where the work is done. That is where we meet people, and
these cuts that we have been talking about are just at the
wrong place. They are cutting people on the ground that get the
work done that we need to have done.
Senator Klobuchar. I get it. If you could look at it, you
know, as a manager, you would make them--and if you wanted to
make some changes, you would do them in a different way than is
being done now?
Mr. Beum. Certainly would, yes.
Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Beum. Thank you.
Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. Senator
Hoeven.
Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank
all the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Weiner, in North Dakota, we have national grasslands.
We have national grasslands both in the Western part of the
State, but also in the Southeast part of the State as well, and
we do a lot of grazing out there. Talk to me a little bit about
your thoughts in regard to the dual benefits that livestock
grazing can have, both in terms of promoting more fire-
resistant, healthy landscapes, and of course, at the same time,
really helping our ranchers.
Mr. Weiner. Yes, thank for the question, Senator. I
appreciate that. I think one great point that this brings up is
that while the bill is called the Fix Our Forests Act, this is
really about all types of landscapes impacted by fire. We think
about chaparral landscapes that were impacted in the Los
Angeles fires recently, and absolutely grazing landscapes like
you have in North Dakota. One of the best tools that we have is
grazing. We are really thrilled that the Fix Our Forests Act
includes provisions to streamline authorities and approvals for
targeted grazing projects, allowing cattlemen access to public
lands for grazing in fire-prone areas.
I think the other piece of this is the value of the
Fireshed Center in helping States like North Dakota that have
emergent wildfire risk, understand what their risk profile is
on the ground, and act accordingly, right? I think a lot of the
great work that has been done in the wildfire technology space
in terms of understanding what is happening on the ground is
being done at the State and local level with very well-
resourced States and local governments. Other smaller States
across the West are going to have a lot of catching up to do,
and we think this center is going to be really helpful in
helping----
Senator Hoeven. Yes. I mean, when these wildfires get going
in the grasslands, I mean, we have had them burn down some
small towns, last year, killed several people. It is very
serious, and we have to be able to address them. In a lot of
cases, you know, we have the ranchers out there themselves,
along with volunteer fire departments trying to help, you know,
contain these fires. Of course, the State does a lot too with,
you know, helicopters and fire suppression and so forth.
Wildfire seasons have turned into wildfire years, and costs
have increased 82 percent to address it over the past decade.
Talk a little bit about, you know, in this legislation, you
know, what can you do in terms of cost savings to really change
that?
Mr. Weiner. Yes. Well, I think that, first of all, the fact
that we spend so much time with the permitting and planning
side would be a problem at the Forest Service, even if it was
not going through the crisis that it is going through right
now.
Senator Hoeven. Talk specifically about permitting, how it
is really going to work. You know, President Trump issued
emergency action right now. How are you going to get permitting
improved so it really works and is timely?
Mr. Weiner. Yes----
Senator Hoeven. Does this bill do it? How does it do it?
Mr. Weiner. I think this bill does do that. I think it does
that through bringing a process to the emergency authority that
is relevant to what President Trump announced and that Governor
Newsom in California announced very recently. Bring----
Senator Hoeven. Okay. There, good point. Does that mean you
can get the bipartisan--you had President Trump do it, and you
have also had Governor Newsom do it.
Mr. Weiner. Yes.
Senator Hoeven. That really speaks to we ought to be able
to pass this thing on a bipartisan basis and get this done,
right, an actual solution in place, right?
Mr. Weiner. Yes, Senator.
Senator Hoeven. Okay.
Mr. Weiner. The folks who are responsible for managing risk
on landscapes, the executives out there are moving in this
direction in a bipartisan basis, and Congress should help put a
process in place to make sure that it meets the desired goals.
Senator Hoeven. Yes, thanks.
Mr. Gordon, I want to ask you about this interface where we
have the urban areas encroaching on these forests, right? That
is happening all the time. You know, we just saw the dramatic,
horrible consequences in California of that, you know,
confluence of urban areas, you know, and these forests. Speak
to what this bill does to really address that, a critically
important and life safety issue.
Mr. Gordon. Yes, it is a growing issue, and to the extent
that we are going to continue to build in these risky areas,
and now a majority of new homes are being built in areas with
wildfire risk, we have to do more wildfire safety,
preparedness, and mitigation. This bill makes the upfront
investments that we need to do to save people, to make it more
affordable long term. It includes things like encouraging
hardening existing homes with wildfire-resistant materials,
removing hazardous fuels, vegetation management. You talked
about grazing, so important to reduce those fuel loads,
programs to better coordinate the various Federal programs and
Federal and State services. This bill is really important to
make the upfront investments to make those buildings insurable
and affordable long term.
Senator Hoeven. Right on and very timely, so thanks to you,
Mr. Chairman and the Ranking Member, for this hearing. Thanks
to the witnesses.
Chairman Marshall. Thanks, Senator Hoeven. Senator Lujan is
next.
Senator Lujan. Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. I very
much appreciate this hearing and to all the panelists who are
here today.
Far too many communities in New Mexico and States across
the country are terrified about fire season, and it is only
getting longer. In 2022 the Hermits Peak/Calf Canyon Fire in
New Mexico, which was started by the U.S. Forest Service as a
controlled burn, largest fire in the State's history, billion
dollars of damages, cost New Mexicans their livelihoods. I was
told at the time that prescribed burns do not get out of
control, very few, less than a 10th of a percent.
About three months later, we had a second one in New
Mexico, burnt another community up, all because folks did not
want to use the technology that was available, but just wanted
to use their hands and their eyes and see if it was warm or
not. We all know what happens when a stump catches on fire and
it goes down deep. It stays smoldering. It does not get put
out, and all it takes is a little bit of a breeze for it to
kick up.
I am proud to have successfully led the New Mexico
delegation in securing funding in a specific act because of the
liability of the Federal Government. I am still not happy at
the pace that funding is flowing to people back home. That is a
whole other conversation that we need to have. Once the fires
do start, we have to have the people power and wildfire
modeling capacity to contain and extinguish the flames.
Mr. Weiner, thank you for calling attention to the
bipartisan Regional Leadership and Wildland Fire Research Act
that I and Senators Sullivan and Sheehy and Padilla worked on
together, and thank you for your work in assisting us to get
this done. Can you speak to the importance of developing next-
generation fire and vegetation models to support wildland fire
management and rehabilitation?
Mr. Weiner. Absolutely. Thank you, Senator, and thank you
for your work on that legislation. We think that that piece of
legislation is crucial on the wildfire science side of this
conversation, and we should think about how to make sure it is
coordinating effectively with the Fireshed Center in this bill.
You know, as you mentioned, wildfire behavior is changing
rapidly. We are seeing facts on the ground change as the fires
are burning, and we have the tools with advanced modeling to
get a handle on how things are likely to play out and act
accordingly. I think that your legislation and the Fireshed
Center in particular can help enable that.
I think it is important to also recognize a lot of the
cutting-edge work happening here is happening in the private
sector, and they do not have a partner in the Federal
Government to work on these issues effectively with right now.
I think we do need to think about how we can enable the
innovation happening in the private sector on advanced modeling
and make sure that we put those tools in the hands of
decisionmakers at every level as quickly as possible.
Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. I am reminded that, as a
country, we spend billions of dollars improving our
understanding of hurricanes and tornadoes. It might surprise a
lot of people, but in New Mexico, we do not have a lot of
hurricanes.
[Laughter.]
Senator Lujan. We do not invest at the same level for
catastrophic fires. I do not understand this. This is a part of
America that has just been left out.
Mr. Weiner. Yes.
Senator Lujan. Well, now there are three western Senators
on this Committee, and I do not believe that is going to happen
anymore.
Mr. Weiner, why is it important that this modeling and
technology is developed and targeted for specific regions of
the country?
Mr. Weiner. Yes, I think first to your point on hurricanes,
you know, historically, hurricanes have been a bigger driver of
damage in the United States, and so catastrophic fire, as we
recognize it now, has only been around for a couple decades,
and our systems have been slow to respond. A single hurricane
hunter costs more than a decade of wildfire science research at
the Federal level, so we definitely need to catch up in that
space.
Senator Lujan. I appreciate that.
Mr. Weiner. And----
Senator Lujan. Go ahead.
Mr. Weiner. I was just going to say, as regards to
different landscapes, I think it is really crucial that we have
a regional approach so that we can look at the difference in
fire risk in places like Hawaii, in the Great Plains where
there is a very different risk, in chaparral-based landscapes
in the Southwest, and comparing that to forested landscapes,
all of which have different risk profiles, different things to
need to look out for and understand if you are a manager. We
think it is critical that we take a regional approach to that.
Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. Well, while I enjoy both
beef and lamb, I will just remind my friends that while cattle
graze, sheep mow----
Mr. Weiner. Yes.
Senator Lujan [continuing].--so we may need some more of
them on these grasslands as well.
Mr. Weiner. Oh, sheep are a big part of it. We are
supportive of them.
Senator Lujan. Well----
Mr. Weiner. I should have said that earlier.
Senator Lujan [continuing].--we should talk about that.
Well, I am not going to get into the pricing of the meat.
[Laughter.]
Senator Lujan. I appreciate the question that Senator
Bennet asked about staffing. You answered that question. It is
a problem. I had a constituent from the Southwestern part of
New Mexico give me a holler because she was worried that her
husband, who is a wildland firefighter, there was a freeze of
hiring, and then people that he worked with were terminated.
She said, if a fire happens, is he going to come home or not? I
think we need to be thinking about that aspect of this.
I would ask my Republican colleagues, look, any of you that
hunt or fish, invite President Trump out west. Take him hunting
and fishing so he can go into these wooded areas and take a
look at them. I think we need to get a good understanding of
the Western part of America so that way we can be working on
this stuff. This is common sense. It is not Democrat or
Republican. This is about the United States. The Western
members have been working closely together. I hope that, you
know, those of us that do not know each other well yet, I hope
to get to know you. We will invite you out. I will take you
fishing, I will take you hunting, but you have to be
comfortable hunting with the other person I mentioned, so that
is up to you all.
[Laughter.]
Senator Lujan. There are some other areas as well in
recovery, Mr. Chairman, I hope we can talk to at a later time.
I will submit them into the record.
Now that we have had these devastating fires, you know, I
have been surprised that only New Mexico and Idaho have the
ability to be able to produce the seedlings necessary for
recovery here. We need to be looking at what we can be doing in
this space so that way we are preventing, we have better tools
to fight when this happens, but then we also look at recovery.
I hope that we can all talk about that.
Then the last thing I will say is, do not forget about the
flooding that happens for five, six, ten years after a fire
hits in the West because it is equally devastating. We need to
make sure that all the rules are updating themselves or we can
help update them so that people are not getting hurt because of
that stuff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Marshall. Thanks, Senator Lujan. I will accept
your invitation as long as it is flyfishing on a stream.
Senator Lujan. Done.
Chairman Marshall. Okay. I got to take my dad fishing this
Sunday in the Flint Hills for the first time this spring, so it
is always a great signal that spring is on the way. You bet.
Chairman Marshall. Senator Justice, thanks for your
patience. You are recognized.
Senator Justice. I am new to the game in lots of ways--
thank you, sir--but I have got a lot of white hair, and I have
been around a lot, and I can tell you--and absolutely, please,
let me accept the invitation as well because there is nobody in
here, nobody that has been in the woods or on the waters more
than I, nobody. I get it. I truly get it.
The thing that is absolutely amazing to me is, I would just
say, simply just this, whether it be all of our unbelievable
farmlands and the contribution of our small family farms, or
whether it be our unbelievable forest that we are absolutely
seeing right now that we got a real problem, and America needs
to react. That is all there is to it. I mean, it is just as
simple as just that.
We got all the smarts in the world here to figure it out as
to what to do, but we just will not react. We just think it is
going to be okay. Well, it is not going to be okay. I mean,
these fires absolutely are killing our--and I just wrote down
just a couple of points here--our air, our waters, our soil,
our nutrients, absolutely our wildlife, and more than anything,
our soul, our soul. Then for those of us that have been on a
stream with a fly rod in your hand or seen the absolutely
majesty of all the stuff of wildlife all around us we are
killing our soul, America. That is all there is to it. We have
got to wake up. We have got to react. Not only do we have to
react, but we got to react within days almost. That is all
there is to it when it really boils down to it.
Here is a solution, you know, that I can provide to you
very quickly, you know, from the standpoint of West Virginia.
You know, we have lost all of our cabinetry, and we have lost
all of our furniture business, and we lost it to Vietnam and
China and Mexico. It is gone. Well, absolutely, how do we get
it back?
I mean, think about this. In West Virginia, we cut 1/3 of
our growth. We do not manage our forests in West Virginia any
better than the problems in the West. We got to do something.
You know, with all that being said, the canopy, we cut 1/3 of
our growth. Think about this just a second. What if we created
some form of funding, whatever it may be, and said, I will tell
you what we are going to do, we are going to rate our States.
In this situation, West Virginia would rate really well, but we
are going to rate our contribution. Do you know that when we
take and cut a tree and it turns into this right here, the
carbon is frozen in this forever. The carbon does not go into
the atmosphere, but if it falls down on the ground because we
are not cutting but 1/3 of our growth, and we are not managing
our forests, and we get any kind of level of forest fire, and
in West Virginia, we get 800 a year. They are not bad, but 800
a year.
What happens to this carbon when the fire goes through?
Poof, right back into the atmosphere. We all absolutely, our
hair on fire about carbon in the atmosphere. Why don't we do
something about it? Why don't we say, I will tell you what we
are going to do, we are going to create some kind of management
funding or whatever, and we are going to apply that toward
labor back in States and rate it and scale it and absolutely,
then bring our absolute furniture and cabinetry, you know,
manufacturing back to the back to us instead of it being in
another country.
There are so many things we can be doing. The intelligence
is all right here. We need to do it on a bipartisan, you know,
matter. Absolutely, without any question, we can do it, and we
can do it right now, absolutely. The question is, will America
react?
With that being said, I would say I stand ready to work
with anybody, anybody. I stand ready to accept that invitation
too. You will see that you will see that I am a hunter, I am a
fisherman, I am a person that loves the outdoors, and I am a
person that wants to absolutely preserve our soul. If we do not
watch out, what we are doing, what we are doing right now is
ludicrous. Let's figure a way to figure this out, and we need
to do it right now.
Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Justice.
Now it looks like we have a contest to see who the second-
best fisherman in the Senate is.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Marshall. Senator Schiff, you are next.
Senator Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to
the witnesses for being here.
Matt, I am sorry I missed the chance to introduce you
earlier. Matt and I have known each other a long time when he
served as the Executive Director of the California Democratic
Congressional Delegation and advised our Chair Zoe Lofgren,
Speaker Pelosi, as well as 42 Democratic Members of the House
on California policy. I appreciate how you brought that
expertise to bear in trying to tackle this very difficult
problem.
We are seeing in California what Americans are seeing all
over the country, that wildfires are now characterized by a
longer fire season, by more massive size, by more acres burned
every year. The loss of life in Altadena and the Palisades, the
loss of homes and businesses was just devastating. With the
100-mile-an-hour winds, it was just an irresistible force to be
reckoned with.
I appreciate all of your efforts to try to improve our
forest management so that we can reduce the chances of these
fires and the work that is being done on a bipartisan basis by
my colleague, Scott Peters from California, and Congressman
Westerman.
I have concerns about the bill, which I think many
Democrats in the House shared when this bill came before the
House, that parts of the bill seem more focused on timber
harvesting than they do on wildfire mitigation. They are not
concerns that cannot be overcome. There are, I think, good-
faith negotiations going on to try to make changes to the bill
that would, I think, potentially, dramatically expand support
for the bill, and I am hoping that we can get to yes on those
changes.
One of the reasons I think there is skepticism about the
priority in the bill being more on wildfire and less on timber
or vice versa is the issue that my colleague, Senator Bennet,
was raising, and that is that so many of the actions we are
taking right now are completely counterproductive, that have
nothing to do with the need to change law, but they involve the
laying off of firefighters, the hiring freeze on other
firefighters, the termination of 3,400 employees at the Forest
Service, the funding freeze affecting the halt of hazardous
fuels reduction. All of this is moving us in the wrong
direction, and so it is hard to make the case for the urgency
of legislation when we are taking steps that are nonlegislative
that are moving us in the wrong direction. I hope that we can
both restore these employees in this workforce and this
important work, and at the same time, make improvements to the
bill and get this moving.
I would like, if I could--I received a letter from the
Lomakatsi Project, which I request unanimous consent to be
entered in the record.
[The letters can be found on page 125-126 in the appendix.]
Senator Schiff. I thank you.
This project is a forestry and workforce development
organization in Oregon and California. Their work has resulted
in thousands of acres of hazardous fuels reduction, millions of
feet of timber sent to mills, billions of dollars saved in
avoided property damage and firefighting costs, and freezing
the funds has really adversely impacted their efforts.
The question I would like to ask, and I will throw it open
to the panel, is, you know, first, how do we make sure that we
are not making the problem worse with some of the actions we
are seeing now? Second, how can we address some of the
legitimate concerns that have been raised in the bill that some
of the provisions go beyond what would be necessary for
wildfire prevention and risk without adequate public input,
taking actions that really could hurt the very forests we are
trying to save? If you could comment on those efforts to
negotiate some of those difficulties, and I yield to the panel.
Chairman Marshall. Well, let's just be brief here. We are
at five minutes, so maybe one minute for an answer here.
Mr. Weiner. I can quickly speak to the last question,
Senator, and thank you for the introduction. I found that when
we engaged in the process with Chairman Westerman and Scott
Peters to a lot of raised eyebrows from a lot of the
conservation community, what we found was an incredibly
productive process and a good-faith process in terms of working
to identify some of those challenges you raised.
I think we are really heartened that there is a bipartisan
group of Senators working to look at a Senate companion bill
right now, but I think the bottom line for us is we think that
it can continue to be improved in the Senate, and I think that
we have good-faith partners in the House to get that done and
make sure that this bill does what it says it will do.
Senator Schiff. I thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We
are obviously coordinating with my colleague, Senator Padilla,
to try to be a constructive part of those negotiations. Thank
you, and I yield back.
Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Schiff.
Senator Warnock, you are next.
Senator Warnock. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Many of my colleagues here today represent States that are
at high risk for large-scale wildfires. Wildfires are not
limited to the West. Atlanta is known as the city in the forest
because of the city's dense tree canopy, and about 2/3 of
Georgia is covered with forests, putting it at risk for
wildfires. In fact, the National Interagency Fire Center
predicts Georgia and much of the Southeast will be at above-
average risk for wildfires over the next couple of months. In
the last week alone, Georgia has seen over 4,000 acres burn,
and neighboring South Carolina's Governor declared a state of
emergency due to wildfires.
Mr. Beum, what are some of the contributing factors that
are increasing Georgia's wildfire risk?
Mr. Beum. Thank you for the question, Senator. You know,
our weather patterns are certainly contributing to the wildfire
risk. What we are seeing right now in the Carolinas, what we
saw in Georgia, we saw at Gatlinburg, there is a number of
things that were really, quite frankly, shocking. I worked in
the South for a number of years and did not anticipate those
type of fires happening in the South, and they do. Climate
change is probably a factor. There are a number of factors to
that, in addition, the lengthening of the season. Again, we do
not really refer to fire seasons anymore; it is a fire year.
Senator Warnock. Right. I think climate change is clearly a
contributing factor not only to wildfires. I can tell you
something else that climate change is clearly causing is more
frequent, larger, and stronger hurricanes. Last fall, Hurricane
Helene, ravaged the Southeast, including Georgia. I remember
spending time on the ground with folks who had lost everything.
Helene paved a path of destruction all the way from the bottom
of the State to the top, taking down 8.9 million acres of
timber with it.
Mr. Beum, can you describe the increased fire risk of
fallen trees from stronger storms create?
Mr. Beum. Yes, Senator, thank you for the question. Anytime
we have trees falling in the forest like that, they will start
to decay, and you get a fire through there, and they will
contribute to the intensity of that fire. In the South, that
might take a year for those trees to dry out and be a large
woody fuel for a fire, but regardless, that is a significant
increased fire risk in the State because of hurricanes.
Senator Warnock. Given that risk, how important is swift
cleanup?
Mr. Beum. Very important, sir.
Senator Warnock. I ask that question because at this time
of increased wildfire risk across the Southeast, the Trump
Administration is firing the very workers who are responsible
for mitigating that risk through storm cleanup and proper
forest management. Will these firings help or hurt Georgia's
ability to mitigate wildfire risk?
Mr. Beum. As I stated earlier, sir, they will absolutely
hurt the ability for Georgia to mitigate that fire risk.
Senator Warnock. I agree, and I think we need legislation
to require our Federal agencies take on more responsibility to
address wildfires. If Congress does not provide them with
proper resources and adequate staffing, we are not setting them
up for success. I look forward to working with my colleagues to
address these shortfalls as we work toward a comprehensive
wildfire strategy bill. Thank you so much.
Mr. Beum. Thank you, sir. I would add just one piece, that
through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation
Reduction Act that was passed previous Congresses, infusion to
the Forest Service was generational money to address wildfire
mitigation. Even so, $5 billion, north of $5 billion, that is a
down payment in what is really needed. I do not even know what
the figure might be, $20 billion, $30 billion.
Senator Warnock. It is an important point, especially since
there are efforts right now in Congress to take that back.
Mr. Beum. Yes, sir.
Senator Warnock. Thank you so much.
Mr. Beum. Thank you.
Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Warnock. Senator
Booker.
Senator Booker. The grace and generosity of our Chairman
and our Ranking Member for letting a guy that is not on this
Subcommittee come in. What a lot of folks in this room do not
know is that New Jersey is a forest State. Yes, I am glad you
all know that. Forty percent of my State is covered by forest,
and last year, we had some horrible, horrible forest fires. I
know a lot of attention is to the West of Jersey, but allow my
Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen Jersey pride to come out here
and come before you all right now.
What my friend and brother Warnock were talking about,
these catastrophic wildfires are being caused by climate
change. This is because climate change has led to higher
temperatures, extended droughts, earlier snowmelt, which create
higher, drier conditions for longer fire seasons, which we are
all seeing, and even again, worse conditions in New Jersey.
We know that to combat climate change, one of the things we
need to do is actually preserve our existing forests. I have
been working with our current Secretary of Agriculture trying
to continue a lot of our tree planting efforts, but especially
our old growth forests, we just need to get more trees in the
ground. We also need to engage in large-scale efforts to reduce
the amount of hazardous fuel that has accumulated into our
forests, as many people have testified today. Really the
massively scaling up of the amount of prescribed burns that we
are doing, I think that is important.
Unfortunately, we have seen with an executive order by the
President, as well as this version of the Fix Our Forests Act,
which passed the House, would do the opposite of this, and are
instead focused on cutting down our forests, not planting more.
In order to fix this act, which I think it is important, as
everybody said, how we work in a bipartisan way, I believe
there is some changes that we need to make, and I want to
mention a few.
In section 121 of the bill, this would severely restrict
judicial reviews of agency actions. These provisions need to be
deleted in their entirety in my opinion. Right now, we are
dealing with an administration that will take any action, legal
or not that I am seeing, that will only check against those
illegal actions in the judiciary, and we need to make sure we
preserve that ability.
The second area that I wanted to point out in this hearing
was in section 121 which shortened the statute limitations from
six years to 120 days. I believe some shortening may be
appropriate but do not believe it should be reduced to less
than one year. We should not limit who has standing to bring
these challenges.
Finally, in section 106 of the bill, this would shift when
environmental reviews happen from prior to agency actions to
after those actions have already happened, essentially making
the reviews meaningless. This bill is already watering down the
NEPA and ESA reviews that will happen, but it is critical that
those reviews continue to happen prior to projects commencing.
A final concern with the bill that I will mention and
really lead into a question is the proposed increase in
categorical exclusions up to 10,000 acres. Mr. Houck, if you do
not mind because you have the best haircut of everybody up
there, can you please talk about what the impact would be on
both the environmental reviews and community participation of
categorical exclusions were increased from 3,000 acres all the
way up to 10,000 acres?
Mr. Houck. Yes, Senator, thank you for the question. My
experience in Gunnison County, and I think it would probably be
applicable to maybe the Pine Barrens as much as the Rocky
Mountain West, but the idea that having the communities that
are closest to this involved in that process are important. My
concern with the watering down or increasing the threshold for
these categorical exclusions would be that it does not allow
the more robust issues to be discussed in a way where there is
upfront input from local government, from industry, and also
from other folks in communities that are invested. Then on the
back end, what they are going to do is litigate in order to
slow things down. Sometimes the idea of going slow to go fast
is there.
I agree that there is opportunities for reform. I think
that this bill has the seeds of that. When I look at the
Wildfire Commission report, it seems to be that would be kind
of a good north star to find some direction about how to mold
and shape some of the----
Senator Booker. Answer me this, and if you answer it as
well as that first question, I am going to do a Sense of the
Senate Resolution that you can become an honorary New Jerseyan.
Can you please just sort of expand on your written testimony,
which I thought was really appointed, that NEPA and ESA have
not been a problem in developing and implementing vegetation
management projects, and say more about what the real causes of
the delay in project implementation are in your view? Because I
believe we need to cut bureaucracy and get things done, but it
seems like you were saying that the delay in project
implementation is not the NEPA and ESA.
Mr. Houck. What I have experienced in Gunnison County and
in western Colorado is often it is the contracting, the time it
takes the contracting and getting the resources on the ground
after the environmental analysis has been done. That has been
more of an impediment to getting good work done on the ground
in my neck of the woods than the actual NEPA.
Senator Booker. Free tolls on the Jersey Turnpike. Thank
you very much, sir.
Chairman Marshall. Is that for everybody, Senator Booker?
Senator Booker. No, sir. No, sir.
Chairman Marshall. Okay.
[Laughter.]
Senator Booker. Bennet must pay.
Chairman Marshall. There you go. Thank you so much.
Senator Bennet, any closing remarks?
Senator Bennet. No, I just want to thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It has been an excellent hearing. Chair, I know you had a
million places to be. Thank you. Critically important our
country and grateful. To the witnesses, thank you all. It was a
pleasure to hear the depth of your knowledge, the depth of your
commitment. I think there is a broad view that we can move
forward on here. I look forward to working with you, Chairman.
Chairman Marshall. Well, thank you, Senator Bennet.
A big thank you to our witnesses again. I know that this
was short notice. You gave up personal time. You put this
together. Your statements will be reviewed over and your
questions as well. The record will be open for five business
days.
I want to say a big thanks to our staff members too, both
the Ranking Member's and my personal staff. The Committee
Members on both sides of the aisle did an incredible job of
putting this together, made it a very, very, very productive
meeting as well. I think this says a lot, the House Speaker
Johnson saying this is a priority to get it across the finish
line this early in a Congress. Appreciate the Chairman and
Ranking Member of the larger Committee saying this is a
priority to have a hearing as well.
What we do not have much up here is oxygen. There is just a
finite amount of issues we can get across the finish line. I do
think this is something we can get across the finish line, and
look forward to working with the Ranking Member and his team as
well.
Today's hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 12:48 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
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