    [Senate Hearing 119-27]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                             S. Hrg. 119-27

                      TO REVIEW H.R. 471, THE FIX OUR FORESTS
                       ACT, AND OPTIONS TO REDUCE CATA-
                       STROPHIC WILDFIRE

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                      CONSERVATION, FORESTRY, NATURAL RESOURCES,
                                  AND BIOTECHNOLOGY

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
                            NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                 March 6, 2025

                                   __________

                           Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry

     [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                      Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/

                                    __________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    59-496 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

               COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY

                        JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman
    MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky            AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado
    JONI ERNST, Iowa                     TINA SMITH, Minnesota
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
    ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas               CORY BOOKER, New Jersey
    TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama            BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
    JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
    CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa               PETER WELCH, Vermont
    JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
    DEB FISCHER, Nebraska                ADAM SCHIFF, California
    JERRY MORAN, Kansas                  ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan

                   Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director
                    Caleb Crosswhite, Majority Chief Counsel
                        Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk
                    Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director
                     Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel

                                  ----------

        Subcommittee on Conservation, Forestry, Natural Resources, and
                                 Biotechnology

                         ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas, Chair
    JIM JUSTICE, West Virginia           MICHAEL BENNET, Colorado, Ranking
    JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota                Member
    JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico
    JONI ERNST, Iowa                     RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia
    CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        PETER WELCH, Vermont
                                         ADAM SCHIFF, California

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                            Thursday, March 6, 2025

                                                                       Page

    Subcommittee Hearing:

    To Review H.R. 471, The Fix Our Forests Act, and Options To
      Reduce Catastrophic Wildfire...................................     1

                                  ----------

                        STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS

    Marshall, Hon. Roger, U.S. Senator from the State of Kansas......     1
    Bennet, Hon. Michael F., U.S. Senator from the State of Colorado.     3

                                   WITNESSES

    Weiner, Matt, Chief Executive Officer, Megafire Action...........     6
    Beum, Frank R., Retired Regional Forester, Rocky Mountain Region,
      Member of Board of Directors, National Association of Forest
      Service Retirees...............................................     8
    Vredenburg, Tim, Director, Department of Forest Management, Cow
      Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians..........................    10
    Houck, Hon. Jonathan, County Commissioner, Board of County
      Commissioners, Gunnison County, CO.............................    11
    Gordon, Robert, Senior Vice President, Policy, Research and
      International, American Property Casualty Insurance Association    13

                                  ----------

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statements:
        Weiner, Matt.................................................    34
        Beum, Frank..................................................    44
        Vredenburg, Tim..............................................    47
        Houck, Jonathan..............................................    51
        Gordon, Robert...............................................    62

    Document(s) Submitted for the Record:
    Marshall, Hon. Roger:
        Association of Firetech Innovation, letter for the Record....    80
        Coalition, letter for the Record.............................    83
        Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation, letter for the Record..    85
        Family Farm Alliance, letter for the Record..................    88
        Federation of American Scientists, letter for the Record.....    98
        National Association of State Foresters, letter for the
          Record.....................................................   100
        National Cattlemen's Beef Association, letter for the Record.   102
        Outdoor Alliance, letter for the Record......................   105
        Tree Care Industry Association, letter for the Record........   111
        United States Forest Service, letter for the Record..........   114
    Bennet, Hon. Michael:
        Karuk Tribe, letter for the Record...........................   118
        Wilderness Watch, letter for the Record......................   120
    Schiff, Hon. Adam:
        Lomakatsi Restoration Project, letter for the Record.........   125
    Lujan, Hon. Ben:
        National Young Farmers Coalition, letter for the Record......   127

    Question and Answer:
    Weiner, Matt:
        Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   132
        Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   135
    Beum, Frank:
        Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   139
        Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   140
        Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   141
    Vredenburg, Tim:
        Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   142
        Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   144
    Houck, Jonathan:
        Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   145
        Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   146
        Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch..........   147
        Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   149
    Gordon, Robert:
        Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   152
        Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   154

      TO REVIEW H.R. 471, THE FIX OUR FORESTS ACT, AND OPTIONS TO REDUCE
                             CATASTROPHIC WILDFIRE

                                  ----------

                            THURSDAY, MARCH 6, 2025

                                            U.S. Senate
        Subcommittee on Conservation, Forestry, Natural Resources,
    and Biotechnology
              Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:12 a.m., in
    Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Roger Marshall
    presiding.
        Present: Senators Marshall [presiding], Boozman, Justice,
    Hoeven, Bennet, Klobuchar, Booker, Lujan, Warnock, and Schiff.

     STATEMENT OF HON. ROGER MARSHALL, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE
                               OF KANSAS

        Chairman Marshall. Well, good morning and welcome,
    everybody. It is my privilege to call this hearing to order. I
    would like to thank our witnesses for taking time out of their
    busy schedules to come share their expertise and perspectives
    on the Fix Our Forests Acts, H.R. 471, which the House passed
    for the second time by an overwhelming vote of 279 to 141 in
    January 2025, just a month or so ago.
        We know wildfires are indifferent to Federal, State,
    Tribal, and private property jurisdictions, and we have all
    seen the destruction catastrophic wildfire can cause on our
    rural and urban communities. Just this week, we are witnessing
    fires threatening lives and property in the Carolinas, and
    unfortunately, recent history is replete with incidents
    illustrating the devastating impacts fires have on our
    communities, from the 2018 Camp Fire in Paradise, California,
    to the 2023 Lahaina fires in Maui, Hawaii, to the 2025 Southern
    California fires as well.
        In order to treat an issue, first, we must identify the
    symptoms, diagnose the root cause of the problem, and implement
    scientifically sound treatments. The loss of human life and
    property from these fires are an acute and painful symptom of a
    disease that is not working. The cause of these fires is rooted
    in misguided policies that go all the way back to the Forest
    Service 1930's so-called 10 AM policy, which requires all fires
    to be extinguished by 10 a.m. the day after they are
    discovered. These causes have been compounded by the Federal
    Government's inability or unwillingness to treat the right
    acres at the right time at the right scale over numerous
    administrations.
        Treating this problem comes in the form of an all-of-the-
    above approach to modernizing the Federal technological toolbox
    for assessing and identifying wildfire risk, facilitating early
    response and suppression, and updating the public-private
    partnership model for Federal, State, Tribal, county, and
    private landowners who address fire risk rather than
    jurisdictional or political subdivision boundaries.
        Every fire is unique. My dad was the Chief of a Fire
    Department for years before becoming Chief of Police, and
    indeed, he would tell me, every fire was very unique. The most
    catastrophic fires all have similarities. Proper management of
    our Nation's forestlands can help prevent a small spark from
    turning into a raging fire with devastating consequences.
        My own State of Kansas is not immune to wildfire. In 2021,
    strong winds and dry air combined to create ideal conditions
    for wildfires in the grasslands of Kansas and central Kansas in
    the Ford County Fire. That fire was clocked at over 180 miles
    an hour at the top of wind turbines sailing through those
    prairies. Not all management methods for the grasslands of
    Kansas mirror what the science tells us should be conducted on
    forested acres, but the important role of proper management on
    our landscapes ring true for both.
        The Fix Our Forests Act, which we will call FOFA for the
    rest of the hearing, is a rare bipartisan opportunity for
    Congress to provide the United States Forest Service, the
    Department of the Interior, States, Tribes, counties, and
    private partners with a modernized and streamlined toolbox to
    fight fire. Regardless of one another's views on the
    appropriate use of Federal lands and resources, we all need to
    help mitigate the frequency and intensity of catastrophic
    wildfires while ensuring the scientifically sound and
    sustainable stewardship of our Federal lands.
        The Fix Our Forests Act provides agencies with critically
    needed and appropriately calibrated increases in the acreage
    limitations for categorical exclusions to forest managers,
    increases which agency analyses have been shown will help
    provide the flexibility to better address forest management. To
    be clear, categorical exclusions are not a free pass for an
    agency to go in and clearcut forests, as some are led to
    believe. They are one way for Federal agencies to comply with
    the NEPA based upon extensive uses of prior environmental
    assessments that showed no significant effect and are still
    subject to the scoping before moving forward.
        FOFA instructs the Federal Government to identify at the
    fireshed scale the top 20 percent of firesheds that are at risk
    for fire exposure over the next five years in order to better
    focus limited resources. FOFA permanently fixes in statute the
    disastrous Ninth Circuit's Cottonwood decision, which the Obama
    Administration petitioned the Supreme Court to overturn. It has
    led to delays in management projects through unnecessary and
    duplicative scoping in an attempt to avoid frivolous
    litigation. FOFA also adopts litigation reforms used by past
    Republican and Democratic Administrations in statute to limit
    litigation delays to essential projects. FOFA strengthens Good
    Neighbor Authority, a critical and overwhelmingly successful
    program that has allowed local and State partners the ability
    to supplement the work the Forest Service is not able to do on
    their own lands.
        I am honored to recognize the Ranking Member, Senator
    Michael Bennet, for his comments.

     STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL BENNET, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE
                              OF COLORADO

        Senator Bennet. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Boozman, I do
    not know if you would like to go before me. I would be happy--
    are you sure? All right. Thank you. Well, thank you for being
    here. Chairman Marshall, thank you so much for your partnership
    and for coming to Colorado last year to have a hearing. I hope
    we can repay the visit. I would like to thank you for your
    leadership in organizing today's hearing, and thank you to all
    the witnesses for joining us today.
        My message is simple, and it is if we are committed to the
    health of our forests and our watersheds, the Federal
    Government must be a more reliable partner for communities and
    local governments. In Colorado, our national forests underpin
    our economy and our way of life. Our forests and watersheds
    protect our water supplies, support agriculture, drive outdoor
    recreation and sustain diverse wildlife habitats.
        Today, they are facing unprecedented threats. Drought and
    wildfire, of course, are at the top of the list. In the West,
    wildfire season is no longer a season, but a year-round reality
    for all our communities. These wildfires do not just burn
    trees. They endanger lives, they devastate communities, and
    they destroy critical infrastructure.
        The effects of western wildfires are not just felt in
    Colorado but across the entire country. Colorado's national
    forests and their watersheds supply water to 19 States and
    parts of Mexico. They are the source of water for tens of
    millions of people. Farmers and ranchers from the Mississippi
    Delta to California, water is our lifeblood in the West, and
    our national forests are the source of their supply. Without
    that water, there is not a single town or city in my State that
    would exist. There is not a county that would exist. There is
    not a farm or a ranch that would exist. The health of our
    watersheds and the health of our forests are exactly the same
    thing. You cannot have one without the other.
        We need to be thoughtful about our approach to managing our
    forests. A one-size-fits-all approach will not work. Top-down
    management without the input of local communities and forestry
    experts risk harming our economy, our sensitive habitats, and
    the water supply that we are trying to protect in the West.
        As we will discuss today, Colorado has a long track record
    of successful collaborative forest management projects that
    bring together local and Federal partners, including the timber
    industry, local government, scientists, tribes, and
    conservationists. As wildfire risk increases across the West,
    the Federal Government should empower those types of
    partnerships and make their work easier, not harder.
        Unfortunately, taking a chainsaw to the Forest Service
    workforce and funding makes life harder for Coloradans, makes
    it harder for citizens in the West, and it does nothing to
    advance local forest management and partnership. Axing the
    dedicated public servants who manage our national forests is
    not just short-sighted, it is downright dangerous.
        Much of Colorado is already in drought, months before
    summer has even started. Right now, snowpack is below average
    in all but one of our major watersheds, and temperatures have
    hit record highs over the weekend, reaching 10 to 15 degrees
    above the historical average.
        Whether it is the Fix Our Forests Act or any other piece of
    legislation, it will not matter what we do here in Congress if
    the administration is simultaneously undermining our Land
    Management Agencies and withholding the resources they need to
    do their job. I appreciate the goals of the Fix Our Forests
    Act, which we will discuss more today. I really do. If done
    thoughtfully, reducing wildfire risk through active management
    is an important goal. By the way, we are running out of time. I
    worry that the bill, as it is currently written, places an
    unreasonable burden on communities and ties the hands of local
    governments, potentially undermining the collaborative approach
    needed to move forest management projects forward.
        I recognize that the wildfire crisis affects us all, and we
    have a responsibility to find a bipartisan solution. I am ready
    to work with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to
    advance legislation that includes the forest policy challenges
    and investments that are needed to reduce wildfire risk and
    improve the Federal Government's work with States, Local, and
    Tribal partners. After all, they are called national forests
    for a reason.
        Over the last decade, we have spent $6 billion on wildfire
    risk reduction work, and $38 billion, six times that much, on
    wildfire response and recovery. It just makes sense, Mr.
    Chairman. It takes $50,000 an acre to fight a fire. It is a lot
    cheaper to be able to do it on the front end than that. If we
    do not invest now in wildfire mitigation and watershed
    restoration and the Federal workforce tasked with doing that
    work, it will cost us hundreds of billions of dollars a year in
    firefighting and recovery costs in the coming decade, to say
    nothing of the damage to our infrastructure, to our way of
    life.
        I have told Chuck Schumer over and over and over again, Mr.
    Chairman, these national forests are more important to us from
    an infrastructure perspective than the Lincoln Tunnel is to New
    York. He does not necessarily agree with that, but it is true.
    Do not tell him I said that.
        We have to get serious about this. No level of government
    can tackle this alone. I am very grateful, Mr. Chairman, for
    this hearing today, and I look forward to hearing from our
    excellent witnesses and working with my colleagues of both
    parties to protect our forests, our communities, and our
    future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Marshall. Well, thank you, Senator Bennet.
    Unfortunately, we are not able to have a representative from
    USDA here to testify on the Fix Our Forests Act. However, the
    Committee has received written testimony from the USDA
    detailing the Forest Service's views of the legislative
    proposal, as well as additional letters of support. I request
    unanimous consent to submit this testimony and these letters
    for the record as part of my opening statement. Without
    objection, so ordered.
        [The letters can be found on page 80-124 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Marshall. We will turn to our introductions now.
    Senator Schiff is not here, so I am going to introduce Mr. Matt
    Weiner. Matt Weiner is the CEO and Founder of Megafire Action,
    the first nonprofit organization focused solely on advancing
    policy solutions to the megafire crisis. He has held senior
    roles in the U.S. Congress and California State Legislature,
    most recently as the Executive Director of California's
    Democratic Congressional Delegation in the House of
    Representatives, where he was responsible for advancing the
    delegation's statewide policy priorities.
        Next, I believe the Ranking Member is going to introduce
    two of his constituents from Colorado.
        Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my pleasure
    to introduce the two witnesses that I invited to testify at
    today's hearing. Both witnesses are incredibly knowledgeable
    and understand the importance of forest management and the work
    that goes into stewarding our public lands. I have invited them
    to be here today to speak about their experience in wildfire
    mitigation and share their perspectives on the importance of
    investing in land management projects and agencies.
        Our first witness, Commissioner Jonathan Houck, is
    currently serving as Gunnison County Commissioner, a position
    he has held since 2013. He is a lifelong public servant. Well,
    actually it says longtime public servant, but I also know he is
    a lifelong public servant, first serving on the City Planning
    and Zoning Commission, then for two terms on the Gunnison City
    Council, which included serving as Mayor. I have known
    Commissioner Houck for over a decade, and he has been kind
    enough to invite me to his county over and over again to hike,
    camp, and fish numerous times.
        One of the first things you notice about when you visit
    Gunnison County, which is, by the way, about 1\1/2\ times the
    size of the State of Delaware, is that its national forests are
    foundational to its economy and core to the identity of the
    people who live there. Forests in Gunnison County supply timber
    to the last remaining timber whip mill on the Western Slope. It
    attracts visitors from around the world with over 1,000 miles
    of trails and produces oil and gas and coal. I cannot think of
    anybody better here to talk about the value of forests to rural
    western communities.
        I thank also Frank Beum, who is here as well. Mr. Beum
    formerly served as the Regional Forestry for the Rocky Mountain
    region, where I had the pleasure of working with him. He is now
    a member of the Board of Directors for the National Association
    of Forest Service Retirees. Mr. Beum has worked at every level
    of the Forest Service, starting his first role as a seasonal
    forestry technician in the Rio Grande National Forest and later
    serving as a Legislative Specialist in the Washington office.
    Notwithstanding that experience, he was willing to come here
    and testify. These are just two examples among the many other
    roles that have given him the unique perspective to understand
    the deep importance of the work done at all levels of the
    Forest Service. We are delighted that he is here today.
        Mr. Chairman, I will turn it back over to you.
        Chairman Marshall. All right. Thank you, Senator Bennet.
        I am going to next introduce Mr. Tim Vredenburg, originally
    from southwest Oregon, for the last 20 years, he has assisted
    private landowners and Indian tribes manage forestlands while
    navigating challenging issues like wildfire, endangered
    species, and an ever changing regulatory landscape. Since 2012,
    he served as the Cow Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians as
    their Director of Forest Management. In his current capacities,
    he is working to develop an expanded timberland base that will
    provide for the cultural and economic well-being of the tribe
    for many generations to come.
        Next, I would like to introduce Mr. Robert Gordon. Mr.
    Gordon is the Senior Vice President, Policy, Research and
    International for the American Property Casualty Insurance
    Association. He is responsible for working with the
    association's members to develop and frame public policy
    positions on the opportunities and challenges facing the
    property casualty insurance industry at the State, Federal, and
    international levels. Previously, Mr. Gordon was the
    Parliamentarian, Senior Counsel, and Ethics Compliance Officer
    for the Committee on Financial Services in the U.S. House of
    Representatives.
        Now, we will turn to our witness testimony. Again, thank
    you to all the witnesses for being here and the time preparing.
        Mr. Weiner, you are now recognized for your statement.

      STATEMENT OF MATT WEINER, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MEGAFIRE
                                 ACTION

        Mr. Weiner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and distinguished
    Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
    testify today. My name is Matt Weiner, and I am the Founder and
    CEO of Megafire Action, a nonprofit organization founded on a
    simple premise, megafire is solvable, and therefore,
    policymakers have an obligation to do more to solve it.
        As we saw in January, the megafire crisis is continuing to
    accelerate, and our systems are continuing to be overwhelmed
    year after year. This is a nonpartisan emergency that requires
    a bipartisan response, and the Fix Our Forests Act is an
    excellent place to start.
        Before I dive into the support for the bill, I want to make
    one thing clear. We cannot fix our forests if we have nobody to
    fix our forests. For decades, we have completely failed our
    workforce, especially our wildland firefighters, who have been
    asked to do too much with too little for far too long. The
    current firings and freezing are only making things worse, but
    this is a longstanding problem. It is appalling that we are
    continuing to put our firefighters in this position, and a
    permanent, well-resourced Federal wildfire workforce remains an
    urgent need, and Congress should step in to stop the bleeding.
        On the bill, there is a lot to like about the Fix Our
    Forests Act, but we see it largely as focused on two
    challenges: permitting reform and technology adoption, both
    essential to scaling up effective wildfire mitigation.
        Let me start with permitting reform. We know selective
    thinning and prescribed fire can restore ecosystem balance and
    reduce risk, yet we are nowhere near meeting the scale that is
    needed. Last year, the Forest Service treated 800,000 acres of
    the highest-risk landscapes, which was a record high, but is
    still far short of the millions of acres a year needed to reach
    our targets.
        We know that treatment saves money. Senators, I have before
    you a slide deck from our friends at Vibrant Planet that
    underscores the value of mitigation investments. A recent
    analysis by them found that $76 million in projects protected
    $2.1 billion in structures. The ROI is undeniable.
        One major barrier to this is the slow and costly permitting
    process. The Forest Service estimates that planning and
    assessments consume 40 percent of direct work and can
    frequently lead to years of delays in getting projects off the
    ground.
        I do want to note that there are legitimate reasons to be
    concerned about changes to NEPA. Lessons forged in the timber
    wars will not and should not be easily forgotten, but the facts
    on the ground have changed, and our policies need to adapt. We
    have seen that cutting red tape can get results. The 10,000
    acre categorical exclusions for fuels reduction in the Lake
    Tahoe Basin sped up treatment, helping stop the Caldor Fire
    before it reached South Lake Tahoe. After losing 20 percent of
    the world's giant sequoias to wildfires, the Forest Service
    expedited NEPA review in 2022, enabling the Giant Sequoia Lands
    Coalition to treat 54 percent of growth within just a few
    years.
        Just last week, President Trump and Gavin Newsom both took
    emergency action to remove regulatory hurdles and accelerate
    fuels treatment on public lands. The people in charge of
    managing risk understand that they need to get at this problem,
    and the Fix Our Forests Act compliments these emergency
    declarations by codifying in statute a process to ensure that
    these efforts are targeted and successful.
        The bill expands limits on CEs from 3,000 to 10,000 acres,
    providing land managers with flexibility to move beyond small
    random acts of mitigation and toward strategic landscape-level
    projects needed to move the needle in a serious way. By
    focusing on the highest risk landscapes and the most impactful
    treatments identified through the fireshed assessments, the
    reforms in this bill target the most critical work on the
    ground.
        Over the last few years, we have seen an explosion of
    technology companies offering solutions at every phase of fire.
    This is not a hypothetical where we need to go, but the
    scalable technology already exists to make taxpayer-funded
    programs more effective and help us reach our goals faster,
    cheaper, and better. Yet these tools remain fragmented across
    more than 50 Federal programs with strained budgets, leaving
    the government unable to effectively deploy tech for those who
    need it most when they need it most.
        The Fix Our Forests Act addresses this by creating a
    Fireshed Center to improve wildfire decision-making across
    prevention, suppression, and recovery. There is currently no
    single entity responsible for evaluating, understanding, and
    acting on risk across jurisdictions and landscapes in the
    United States. Like a combat support agency at DoD, this center
    will integrate real-time intelligence, predictive modeling, and
    risk assessments to support firefighters, land managers, and
    communities, and we need to ensure that the agency is built to
    move fast.
        Beyond the center, we strongly support the Wildfire
    Technology Testbed Program in the bill to spur private sector
    innovation. Scaling these solutions quickly is absolutely
    critical. To maximize impact, Congress should consider
    expanding this provision to include deployment and authorize
    existing funds for wildfire technology acquisition.
        In conclusion, the Fix Our Forests Act will move the
    Federal Government toward a more proactive, science-driven
    approach to wildfire management. The bipartisan effort, led by
    Chairman Westerman and Representative Peters, has produced a
    solid product, and I look forward to working with the Committee
    to strengthen and refine this bill to maximize its impact.
        Thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and I look
    forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Weiner can be found on pages
    34-43 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Beum, you are recognized.

     STATEMENT OF FRANK R. BEUM, RETIRED REGIONAL FORESTER, ROCKY
        MOUNTAIN REGION, MEMBER OF BOARD OF DIRECTORS, NATIONAL
                 ASSOCIATION OF FOREST SERVICE RETIREES

        Mr. Beum. Thank you. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member
    Klobuchar, Chairman Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and
    Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify
    today. I am Frank Beum, and I serve on the Board of Directors
    of the National Association of Forest Service Retirees. We are
    a nonpartisan, professional, and science-based organization
    comprising over 900 Forest Service Retirees and associates
    dedicated to adapting to the challenges of today and tomorrow.
        Our members understand the importance of fiscal
    responsibility, efficiency, and cost reductions, but we are
    gravely concerned about the impacts to essential services
    caused by recent actions to cut the Forest Service field-going
    workforce. Steeper cuts to staff and programs are expected,
    which will significantly impede the ability of the agency to
    deliver critical goods and services to the American people.
    This includes the work outlined in the Fix Our Forests Act.
        I retired from the Forest Service in May 2024, 43 years
    after my first day as a seasonal forestry technician. I worked
    in the woods, thinning tree stands with a chainsaw, marking
    timber sales, and taking care of wilderness and recreation
    areas before I moved into leadership roles, as Senator Bennet
    mentioned.
        Turning to the act, in January 2024, NAFSR and 36 other
    organizations representing millions of outdoor enthusiasts sent
    a letter to Speaker of the House Mike Johnson and Minority
    Leader Hakeem Jeffries supporting the Fix Our Forests Act. This
    legislation would provide land managers with tools desperately
    needed to strengthen the role of States, Tribes, local
    government, collaborative groups, and other partners in forest
    management. It will help the Forest Service staff plan and
    implement more projects to reduce the threat of the wildfire
    crisis.
        However, recent cuts imposed by the Department of
    Government Efficiency will make it very difficult to deliver on
    the promise of the legislation. These indiscriminate
    reductions, along with nearly 1,000 staff who took deferred
    resignations, are hollowing out the agency and jeopardizing the
    future of America's forests. Ranchers, miners, loggers,
    campers, hikers, skiers, hunters, anglers, and people who just
    simply value clean drinking water will feel the impacts.
        Over 180 million people in more than 68,000 communities
    rely on national forests for the drinking water. Spending by
    visitors to national forests and grasslands contributes about
    $10.3 billion annually to the U.S. economy and sustains more
    than 140,000 family wage jobs that are the foundation of many
    rural communities. All of this is at risk due to sweeping,
    random staffing cuts that threaten the future of our public
    land heritage.
        I have several examples to share. Approximately 3,400
    Forest Service employees with less than one year of service in
    their positions, mostly field-going forestry technicians, were
    designated for firing simply because they were easy targets.
    Many of those fired were military veterans, hired through
    special authorities as a recognition of their service to our
    country. More than 75 percent of those dismissed employees had
    wildland fire qualifications, including on-the-ground
    firefighting, not just support roles, but on-the-ground, boots-
    on-the-ground firefighting.
        A couple other quick examples, six of seven members of a
    timber strike team in the Rocky Mountain region were fired, and
    several individuals hired to work on Hurricane Helene recovery
    in North Carolina and Georgia were also fired. Now, some of
    these employees that were hastily fired are being brought back
    to do important work, but please do not underestimate that this
    uncertainty has damaged morale and slowed work in wildland fire
    prevention, timber management, and fire and storm recovery. As
    a result, thousands of communities will face greater wildfire
    risks as planned fuel reduction projects will go uncompleted.
    Businesses reliant on forest-related goods and services will
    suffer, and the agency will struggle to meet the
    administration's goal of wood independence.
        The Forest Service, of course, works for the executive
    branch, and the Forest Service has always adjusted to
    priorities of incoming administration. Some of these cuts will
    make it difficult to do so. If the Forest Service continues to
    be hollowed out and can no longer provide essential services,
    there may be calls to move these lands to States, counties, or
    private ownership.
        President Teddy Roosevelt had it right. Public lands belong
    to all Americans and should be managed under Federal
    protection. Public lands held in public trust is a uniquely
    American ideal, and they are the envy of the world. Forest
    Service employees are real people, family, friends, and
    neighbors, dedicated to caring for the land and delivering
    services to the American people. They are dedicated public
    servants who protect and conserve these lands. Without them to
    do their work, our natural heritage will be lost, and the
    intent of Fix Our Forests Act cannot be delivered.
        I want to just leave you with two thoughts. One, we
    strongly support Fix Our Forests Act, and we are concerned that
    the Forest Service will not be able to deliver upon that act
    without critical resources and staff. With that, I thank you
    again for the opportunity to testify, and I welcome your
    questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Beum can be found on pages
    44-46 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Beum.
        Mr. Vredenburg, you are recognized for five minutes.

      STATEMENT OF TIM VREDENBURG, DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF FOREST
         MANAGEMENT, COW CREEK BAND OF UMPQUA TRIBE OF INDIANS

        Mr. Vredenburg. Chair Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and
    respected Members of the Committee, thank you for the
    opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Tim Vredenburg,
    and I serve as the Director of Forest Management for the Cow
    Creek Umpqua Tribe of Indians located in Roseburg, Oregon. I am
    here to express the tribe's support for H.R. 471, the Fix Our
    Forests Act. We believe that this legislation is a critical
    step in addressing the ever-growing wildfire crisis.
        The Cow Creek Umpqua is a tribe of just over 2,000 members.
    Their lands are nested in a checkerboard of private, State, and
    mostly Federal lands. Over the last 10 years, catastrophic
    wildfires have burned nearly 20 percent of their reservation
    and 1.1 million acres of their ancestral area. The majority of
    the highest intensity fires have been on the Federal lands in
    the areas that excluded management. Fires are returning to the
    same places two, three, even four times, destroying the native
    ecosystems and replacing them with invasive species.
        Our beautiful places, once lush, green forest, clean cold
    water, places that I spent time with my family hunting, hiking,
    fishing, they are destroyed. These fires have decimated tribal
    lands and driven tribal members from their homes again and
    again. This is why the Cow Creek Tribe is committed to an
    approach of forest management, not just on their lands, but on
    the neighboring Federal lands as well.
        You see, historic conditions, which were guided by tribal
    management, supported 35 to 50 trees per acre, with a
    scattering of open meadows. Today, many areas have over 1,500
    trees per acre. This has exceeded the carrying capacity of our
    forests. It has created unprecedented fuel loads, destabilized
    above-ground carbon, and limited water resources. Fires that
    once burned in a beneficial way now explode in catastrophic
    infernos that burn so hot that they completely sterilize the
    soil.
        We need regulatory certainty. The Cottonwood decision has
    created uncertainty for our land managers. The Fix Our Forests
    Act addresses this and presents an opportunity to update
    woefully out-of-date land management plans. Agencies fail to do
    plan revisions because it takes too much time and they are too
    expensive. One of the biggest challenges we face is the
    lengthy, bureaucratic review process. We need to streamline
    this process, and we must implement forest restoration projects
    at a landscape scale. We have hundreds of thousands of acres of
    land just around the Cow Creek reservation that need treated
    right now.
        We appreciate that the act expands categorical exclusions
    to allow for projects up to 10,000 acres, that it modifies the
    Good Neighbor Authority, empowering tribes to reinvest in
    future forest restoration projects, and that it acknowledges
    the value of cultural burning. The tribal provisions are a good
    start, and it is worth exploring new ways to leverage the
    passion, expertise, and the fervent will of our tribal
    partners. If asked and activated, tribes can vastly improve and
    amplify the quality and impact of the Federal Land Managers.
        This is not just about our forests; it is about clean
    water, healthy air, wildlife, recreation, and livable
    communities. Each catastrophic fire that burns leaves behind
    degraded soils, damaged fish habitats, hazardous smoke, smoke
    that fills the lungs of our children.
        Approach the crisis with innovation and out-of-the-box
    thinking. Consider expanding the law to protect even more
    forests. Specifically, the Forest Service should consider the
    proximity of tribal lands when designating high-priority
    firesheds, not just a structure count.
        This has to be a bipartisan effort. Unnecessary controversy
    surrounding forest management has become the kryptonite of
    forest health. We need to fundamentally rethink how we manage
    our Federal forestlands. To save our forests, we must manage
    them, and we must manage them in their entirety. Tribes have
    long been stewards of these lands. We must move beyond the
    short-term fixes and embrace real, large-scale solutions.
        I urge the Members of the Committee on both sides of the
    aisle to pass meaningful legislation that empowers those of us
    on the ground to act quickly because we can break free of this
    cycle of catastrophic wildfire. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Vredenburg can be found on
    pages 47-50 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Vredenburg.
        Mr. Houck, you are recognized for five minutes.

    STATEMENT OF HON. JONATHAN HOUCK, COUNTY COMMISSIONER, BOARD OF
            COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, GUNNISON COUNTY, COLORADO

        Mr. Houck. Thank you, Chairman Marshall and Ranking Member
    Bennet and Members of the Subcommittee, and thank you for the
    opportunity to testify today, especially at this key moment of
    crisis for our Federal Land Management Agencies. I am a County
    Commissioner representing Gunnison County, Colorado, and like
    most residents of Gunnison County, I am dedicated to the
    stewardship of our cherished Federal public lands.
        Gunnison County comprises 2.1 million acres, 1.7 of which
    are Federal public lands managed by the Forest Service, the
    Bureau of Land Management, and the National Park Service. To
    put that in perspective, as Senator Bennet did, we are 1\1/2\
    times the size of the State of Delaware and 80 percent are
    Federal public lands. Gunnison County public lands are home to
    the State's largest body of water, the largest coal mine, ski
    area, and source of the marble that was used for the Lincoln
    Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Gunnison County is
    headwaters of the Gunnison River, the second-largest tributary
    to the Colorado River system.
        In Gunnison County, our public lands are everything to us.
    They are the foundation of our economy, our culture, our
    values, and our way of life. We take seriously our commitment
    to working with our Federal partners to support stewardship of
    these public lands, not only for the residents of Gunnison
    County, but for all Americans, and not just for today, but for
    the future as well.
        I have submitted written testimony expressing my views on
    the Fix Our Forests Act, and I appreciate you making that part
    of the record.
        As I explain more fully in my written testimony, the bill
    is a compilation of a variety of provisions, making technical
    amendments to a variety of forest laws, codifying existing
    programs, granting new authorities, fine-tuning directions, and
    calling for new studies, many of which would be helpful
    improvements. It also includes a variety of NEPA categorical
    exclusions, restrictions on judicial review, and limitations on
    consultations under the ESA that would be harmful to the
    science-based community collaboration that has been the
    hallmark of our success in public land decisionmaking in
    Gunnison County.
        We depend on NEPA to guarantee that our community has a
    seat at the table to work in an informed and cooperative manner
    with the Forest Service to generate the best alternatives for
    achieving desired conditions in our forest. We depend on
    proactive approaches to conserving species so we can avoid
    listing them. While litigation is an extremely rare occurrence,
    we know that none of that is possible if the rule of law and
    the potential for its enforcement by the courts is not
    respected.
        Our situation in Gunnison County is both illustrative and
    not unusual. As just two examples we have collaboratively
    developed in recent years, two significant projects to increase
    forest resilience and provide wood products to the market. The
    Taylor Park Vegetation Management Plan and a Spruce Beetle and
    Aspen Decline Project were both designated to be implemented
    over a decade and cover tens of thousands of acres of national
    forestland. They were collaboratively developed under NEPA and
    in accordance with the ESA with a broad group of local
    stakeholders.
        Those laws are not the problem. Forest Service capacity to
    implement them is the problem. Those who know the Forest
    Service already knew the agency had a significant staffing
    crisis. The firing of hundreds of staff in Colorado over the
    last few weeks has intensified that crisis considerably.
        In Gunnison County alone, between probationary firings and
    the hiring freeze for both open positions and seasonal
    employees, the Forest Service alone is short more than 50
    employees that are critical to carrying out the most basic of
    operations. This is significant and represents the issues in
    just one of Colorado's 64 counties. Those fired and those
    seasonal employees who have had their upcoming contracts
    rescinded are hardworking Americans that mark timber sales,
    clear trails, perform fire patrol, issue grazing permits,
    prepare mineral leases, clean bathrooms, and assist visitors.
        We must stop this destruction and repair the substantial
    damage that has already been done as the first critical
    priority. If not stopped, these efforts will destroy our
    Federal Land Management Agencies, and ultimately, the
    communities like mine that depend on them to manage our public
    lands.
        In other times, the issues compiled in the Fix Our Forests
    Act would be of significant interest to Gunnison County, but
    right now--and I know I can speak for many of my fellow County
    Commissioners in Colorado and perhaps many across the West--
    there are critical things we need from Congress regarding our
    public lands. Here is what we desperately need from Congress
    for our public lands.
        We need leadership to stop the destructive, arbitrary, and
    inhumane firings of our Federal Land Managers, work with
    communities to identify areas for increased efficiency and
    increased capacity. It is worth noting, when seasonal personnel
    are not hired, that impact actually ripples into the private
    sector since their other seasonal employment is often tied to
    other essential needs in our small rural communities.
    Additionally, do not discount the gut punch to morale to those
    who have not been eliminated and the increased anxiety created
    by the current administration's approach to staffing.
        Finally, what is happening now with the firings and the
    upcoming reduction in force actions will have a lasting and
    chilling effect on the future of those contemplating a career
    service in our public land agencies. If the true goal is to fix
    our forests, then please start by fighting for the restoration
    of the most basic staffing levels, both full-time and seasonal,
    to do the good work already underway. Existing timber sales,
    planned vegetation management actions, grazing permit renewals,
    and other already-approved actions that will contribute to
    healthier forest, better outcomes, and less wildfire are in
    jeopardy right now because the workforce that carries out those
    operations has been decimated.
        We cannot fix our forests without a skilled, dedicated,
    professional workforce, not only at the Forest Service, but
    also at the BLM and the Park Service. This is the critical work
    that desperately needs attention. None of this should be
    controversial or partisan. It is certainly not in Gunnison
    County.
        Thank you again for the opportunity to testify. I would be
    happy to answer any questions you have.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Houck can be found on pages
    51-61 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Houck.
        Next, Mr. Gordon, you are recognized for five minutes.

      STATEMENT OF ROBERT GORDON, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, POLICY,
        RESEARCH AND INTERNATIONAL, AMERICAN PROPERTY CASUALTY
                         INSURANCE ASSOCIATION

        Mr. Gordon. Chairman Marshall and Ranking Member Bennet,
    thank you for holding today's hearing. I am Robert Gordon, the
    Senior Vice President of Policy, Research and International for
    the American Property Casualty Insurance Association. APCIA
    represents over 2/3 of the United States' home, auto and
    business property casualty insurance market. APCIA strongly
    supports the bipartisan Fix Our Forests Act.
        The California wildfires earlier this year caused between
    $95-275 billion in economic losses, one of the worst wildfire
    events in history. Insurers have already expedited over $6.9
    billion in payments to help families and businesses recover,
    and we expect to ultimately provide between $40-50 billion in
    relief. That is roughly three times the homeowners' premiums
    for the entire State for the entire year, and the regular
    summer fire season has not yet even begun.
        Now, wildfires are endemic in the United States. There is
    an average of roughly 70,000 wildfires per year over the last
    four decades, but catastrophic wildfire losses to communities,
    known as conflagrations, have dramatically escalated.
    Conflagration losses over the last decade caused five times as
    much damage as in prior decades. Now, there are a number of
    reasons those losses are increasing so much. A majority of new
    homes are being built in areas that are at high fire risk,
    particularly in the wildland-urban interface next to forests
    and other natural landscapes. In fact, in just the last year,
    residential property exposures in the United States at high
    risk of wildfire losses increased nearly 23 percent in just one
    year.
        Inflation, particularly for building materials and lumber,
    has skyrocketed. The estimated cost of replacing all the
    buildings in the United States more than doubled over the last
    decade. Worsening weather severity is exacerbating
    precipitation and drought cycles that increase dry brush and
    fuel loads, so the climate is having a particular impact on
    wildfires. Legal system abuse is compounding the disaster
    costs, and we are now seeing 87 percent of wildfires are caused
    by humans, accidentally or intentionally, with an increasing
    number of the costliest and deadliest wildfires triggered by
    utility equipment sparking during severe winds.
        Without more proactive mitigation, disaster preparedness,
    and better coordinated response, these factors are going to
    continue to drive escalating wildfire losses, damaging
    ecosystems and the environment, and putting upward pressure on
    the cost of homeowner's insurance and the cost of government
    disaster aid.
        Insurers are doing our part to develop solutions. Insurers
    have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the Insurance
    Institute for Business and Home Safety, IBHS. IBHS has
    developed safety and mitigation standards for properties,
    including fortified standards to protect against wind and
    wildfire-prepared home standards to protect against
    conflagrations. Insurers also participated in the
    congressionally established Wildland Fire Mitigation and
    Management Commission, including our APCIA CEO, and they made
    over 100 recommendations, including support for the IBHS
    wildfire safety standards.
        The Fix Our Forests Act incorporates many of those
    recommendations, including requiring government coordination
    for wildfire prediction, response, and recovery; supporting
    local adoption of fire-resistant building methods, codes, and
    standards; encouraging better fuel reduction; and supporting
    more resilient utility infrastructure. Those are all very
    important.
        Last December, Congress provided $110 billion in disaster
    assistance, and California just requested another $40 billion
    for January's wildfires. Unless we invest more up front in
    wildfire mitigation, as both the Chairman and Ranking Member
    have underscored, taxpayers are going to keep getting stuck
    with ever-increasing costs for disaster response and recovery.
    More people are going to lose their homes and communities,
    insurance losses are going to skyrocket, and housing will be
    less affordable.
        APCIA and insurers strongly support the bipartisan Fix Our
    Forests Act to make those upfront investments. The act builds
    on extensive safety research by insurers, the IBHS, the
    Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management Commission, and would
    facilitate implementation of proven safety standards and needed
    government coordination.
        APCIA and insurers look forward to partnering with Members
    of the Subcommittee to advance this legislation and work on
    wildfire protections. We thank you for your leadership, and I
    look forward to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Gordon can be found on pages
    62-78 in the appendix.]
        Chairman Marshall. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Gordon.
        I am going to ask just one question, and then we will turn
    to the Ranking Member, and then I will come back at the end and
    ask some questions if they were not picked up.
        I want to start by recognizing the great work that
    Congressman Bruce Westerman from the State of Arkansas has done
    on this, as well as Congressman Scott Peters from California.
    Bruce is absolutely a subject expert on this, and he has been a
    great teacher, and I recognize the Ranking Member's expertise
    on this subject as well.
        I will just have one question to start with, and it is for
    Mr. Vredenburg. Many people mischaracterize categorical
    exclusions as an end run around NEPA. Can you explain why
    larger categorical exclusions are critically needed and will
    help mitigate future catastrophic fires while still ensuring
    proper environmental reviews?
        Mr. Vredenburg. Yes. Thank you, Chairman. I will give an
    example. The Cow Creek Tribe has a cooperative agreement under
    the Tribal Forest Protection Act, working with the Umpqua
    National Forest on attempting to restore and reduce the risk of
    fire to the Cow Creek Umpqua reservation. As we approach that
    problem, it is a scale of hundreds of thousands of acres that
    we are trying to treat. What we are practically doing is having
    to piece together small categorical exclusions because, you
    know, traditional environmental assessments just take years,
    years and years to get through. Categorical exclusions are not
    fast, but they are our most rapid solution to address the
    problem.
        We are looking at a watershed right now that is about
    10,000 acres. We would have to try and piece together several
    different categorical exclusions, trying to make sure they are
    not interdependent, interrelated, that we are not stacking
    those, that there is separation, and it really ties our hands.
    What practically happens is we do not get to treat the areas
    that need to be treated.
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you. I will turn to Senator Bennet
    next.
        Senator Bennet. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
        As we were walking in here this morning, there was I think
    a Federal court ruling some place delaying the firings of the
    Forest Service employees that we are talking about at least for
    45 days. That is, I suppose, a shred of comfort, but that is
    going to also add its own levels of uncertainty. I wanted to
    ask Frank Beum and the Commissioner, if you could tell us a
    little bit specifically how these staffing shortages, the
    hiring freezes, the recent round of firings are going to affect
    fire management on the landscape today. What do we need to
    worry about in terms of just this coming summer and the work
    that has to be taken to prepare us for that and to fight the
    fires that are coming?
        Frank, when you talk about this, could you talk a little
    bit about the importance of red cards and what that means for
    people as well?
        Mr. Beum. Yes, Senator, thank you. As I mentioned in my
    testimony, about 75 percent of the probationary employees that
    were removed have fire qualifications. They are given on a card
    that is red. That is why it is called red card. You have a red
    card that lists your qualifications you are trained to do. Most
    of those folks that were eliminated or dismissed during their
    probationary period are field-going forestry technicians that
    typically have some red card qualifications often to do on-the-
    ground firefighting, not just support. We know primary
    firefighters with that in the position description were not
    removed, but collateral-duty firefighters, which is a backbone
    of the fire suppression effort, as well as prescribed fire,
    were removed. Those are our red card employees.
        That is going to be a massive impact on the ability of the
    fire--I am going to use the broader Fire Service, which is all
    the Federal agencies, State agencies, and others to do fire
    suppression work this year. It is going to have a pretty big
    impact. Thank you.
        Senator Bennet. Commissioner Houck?
        Mr. Houck. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think,
    interestingly, the perspective I bring is someone who actually
    has the ability to, day in and day out, walk into the district
    rangers' office at the Forest Service or the BLM or the Park
    Service. The big concern that we see in Gunnison County
    currently is that there are many already approved projects.
    These are timber sales, these are habitat restoration projects,
    this is on-the-ground trail work that is mitigating fire danger
    that is approved for this upcoming year, and they do not have
    the staff on the ground to do these projects.
        I would like to maybe step back to a point that you made in
    your introductory comments. It is the partnerships in
    communities that make a difference. For a good example, our
    trail crews are funded through State funds, through the
    Colorado Parks and Wildlife OHV funds, and that money comes to
    the Forest Service and allows them to do projects which include
    vegetation management. They cannot hire that trail crew even
    though the funding comes from a source other than the Federal
    Government. I am hearing that from the foresters in our
    district. They will not have the forestry technicians to go out
    and mark the sales that have already approved, that have been
    through a NEPA process and are part of these larger projects
    that I spoke of in my opening comments.
        We have a lot of veterans that work on the forests in
    Gunnison County. A lot of these veterans have lost their jobs.
    One thing that I am really happy about to see in Colorado is
    how many veterans come to Colorado, connect to outdoor spaces,
    and the work that they do, the soul-satisfying work they do is
    connected to public lands. Some of them have lost their jobs as
    well.
        When I look at what we have on slate for just this coming
    summer, I have concerns that now we are going to start
    backlogging already a place where we are struggling to keep up
    due to the lack of resources before the firings.
        I would make one last comment that the deferred
    resignations, though, not hugely impactful right in the
    Gunnison field office, but I think of the neighboring White
    River National Forest in the route. We had three folks that
    retired who were senior level that when type one teams need to
    be deployed for fires and things of that nature, they are the
    leadership that runs the team. I would say to Frank's comments
    about red card members, a lot of the folks that have been
    eliminated recently are red card holders, and they are part of
    the firefighting process in our community.
        Senator Bennet. I would just say to the Chairman and to the
    Chairman, the Secretary of Agriculture, who is from Texas, has
    said that she does not think that they have laid off or fired
    any firefighting personnel. You have heard today that is
    actually not the case, that Frank Beum described some of the
    people that have been laid off as the backbone of our
    firefighting efforts.
        I think I would speak for everybody if I can for once, for
    Colorado, who is a Democrat or a Republican, we got to get
    these people back on the ground. We do not have 45 days to do
    the planning that is required. This is an emergency that we are
    facing today, and we would love your help in trying to at least
    pause this so that we can get to the other side of it.
        By the way--I will stop here--that does nothing to deal
    with the underlying problems that have existed in our western
    States for years in terms of paying firefighters what they are
    due to begin with. We have got to find a way to work together
    to solve that problem as well.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Marshall. Yes, thank you, Senator Bennet. Chairman
    Boozman.
        Chairman Boozman. Thank you very much. I want to thank you
    and Senator Bennet for the great job that you are doing with
    the Subcommittee and your staffs. You really jumped in last
    year and this year and really are making a difference.
        As always, it is great to be with our fearless leader, Amy.
    We appreciate her and always.
        Senator Hoeven. Are you talking about Marshall or----
        Chairman Boozman. Well, I am not talking about you, John.
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman Boozman. Mr. Gordon, as your testimony mentioned,
    there are more than 44 million homes in the wildland-urban
    interface at risk of wildfire. Can you please talk about how
    the provisions of FOFA, including allowing hazardous tree
    removal within 150 feet of a utility right-of-way, can help
    address this problem and make communities safer? I have heard
    in people discussing the bill, they wonder, why are things like
    that in there? Why is that important?
        Mr. Gordon. It is very important. A lot of the Federal
    wildfire programs are currently very fragmented and can be very
    challenging for all the individuals and communities and
    governments to navigate and access all of the wildfire
    resources, and so it is very important to have the FOFA to
    coordinate all the stakeholders and resources, support land use
    planning, adoption of building codes, supporting protection of
    critical watersheds and water delivery infrastructure. The
    various programs would also coordinate with the State and local
    agencies, including for grant assistance. We think FOFA is
    very, very important and look forward to doing anything we can
    to help you advance it.
        Chairman Boozman. Very good. Senator Marshall mentioned the
    categorical exclusions that are part of NEPA and really ask
    about increased categorical exclusions, how they effectively
    help manage our Nation's forests. Does anybody disagree with
    that on the panel? Go ahead.
        Mr. Houck. Yes, thank you, Senator. I would not say I would
    disagree, but in doing my research for the presentation today
    and in speaking with those at the agency, categorical
    exclusions are--currently, north of 80 percent of most projects
    are excluded from--categorical exclusions are used and using
    those to not have to go through the full NEPA process. You
    know, from someone on the ground and at a local level, the
    concern is that moving further and further away for these
    larger projects from that community involvement, you start to
    lose the social engagement and the social license from the
    communities most directly impacted and finding a way to make
    sure that categorical exclusions are handled in a way that is
    beneficial but also--and they are a great tool, but I am
    concerned about the larger projects being--CEs being used to
    sidestep some of the good public participation that happens
    through a full NEPA process.
        Chairman Boozman. Are you concerned about the process being
    so cumbersome, though, that for some of these bigger projects,
    it is almost impossible to get done just because of the
    bureaucracy involved and the abilities to play the system in a
    different way?
        Mr. Houck. Senator, thank you for that. I would respond
    that, you know, my experience in a rural western public lands
    county, that participation on the front end has been robust
    enough that we have seen less litigation. We have seen less
    kind of playing the system or gaming the system, sir, as maybe
    you referred to it. I want to acknowledge that I think that is
    a challenge to overcome. I think my position, and as you will
    see in my written comments that are much more in depth, the
    concern would be that by weakening that social license with
    communities, you will actually potentially see more litigation
    and more things that hamstring these projects in the long run
    by not having that more robust public input up front that NEPA
    often affords. At least for my community, I have noticed, it
    has been very beneficial.
        Chairman Boozman. Yes, one of the things that I have
    noticed, and I think anybody that has been around this at all,
    is how different forests are managed throughout the country.
    You know, it is great that you have got, you know, a good
    experience and working hard and, you know, everybody kind of
    gets along. That is certainly not the case every place, you
    know, so--thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Marshall. All right. Thank you, Chairman. Senator
    Klobuchar.
        Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank
    you, Senator Bennet, for this great and timely hearing. I wish
    we did not have to focus on it because I wish we did not have
    this many fires. We are here, and we need to do everything we
    can. I look at Senator Schiff there with what he and his
    constituents went through with the fires in California, what we
    have seen in Colorado. We know that these fires pose the
    greatest threat in the West, but it is also important to know
    that these fires have not spared other parts of the country.
        I remember flying in a helicopter over the forests of
    northern Minnesota and seeing the areas burn 90,000 acres, the
    Pagami Fire, the largest Minnesota wildfire in nearly a
    century. Wildfires, including the Greenwood Fire once again
    burned across northern Minnesota. Of course, we, like so many
    of the Northern States, have our people get the air from Canada
    from those horrendous fires that burned for months and months
    and months.
        Recent investments by Congress have led to the Forest
    Service that have been really important, the Collaborative
    Wildfire Risk Reduction Program funding two projects in the
    Superior National Forest to reduce hazardous fuels and create
    strategic fuel breaks, which I am sure you agree it is just the
    kind of thing we need to be doing. Unfortunately, these
    projects and others carried out by the Forest Service and its
    partners have been disrupted due to the widespread funding
    freeze. I look forward to hearing from all of you today on
    this, but also on the Fix Our Forests Act and ways we should
    strengthen the bill to ensure that wildfire responses are
    directed to the areas most in need, changes to the review
    process are targeted and allow for community input--Senator
    Bennet mentioned this--and that the Forest Service has the
    necessary funding and personnel to perform the additional and
    important wildfire mitigation.
        My first question would be of you, Mr. Houck. Can you
    discuss the importance of Federal funding to accomplish more
    restoration work, and how does this assistance help counties
    and other local units carry out wildfire mitigation?
        Mr. Houck. Thank you, Senator, and thank you for the
    question. Indeed, as I said in my opening comments, some of the
    lack of funding and lack of programs--the programs that are
    being funded are being well utilized, but there is still a
    shortage of funding, and there is still a shortage of resources
    and capacity on the ground. Many communities such as mine have
    had the ability to get projects into the pipeline. Funding and
    workforce tend to be the issues that get in the way of those.
        You know, the Good Neighbor Authority, I am very happy to
    see that. I know you have been a long-time champion of the Good
    Neighbor Authority----
        Senator Klobuchar. Exactly.
        Mr. Houck [continuing]. and thank you.
        Senator Klobuchar. You are welcome.
        Mr. Houck. Section 111----
        Senator Klobuchar. It has like the best name of any bill.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Houck. It is great to see that in--and I think that is
    very positive for that. It reinstates and restates with the
    EXPLORE Act covered, which is counties and tribes have the
    ability to use the Good Neighbor Authority to its best extent.
    I would also offer that funding of those kind of programs and
    expansion of those programs within communities then also allows
    us--and I think the insurance businesses have seen this--when
    we can enact higher levels of local regulation around building
    and wildfire protections, we are levering these different
    inputs in our community for better things that our citizens can
    take advantage of, and then being able to create fire-wise
    communities, work in the WUI, and make sure that that work is
    done quickly and efficiently.
        Senator Klobuchar. Mr. Beum, I have long supported
    permitting reform as long as it is done in the right way.
    Currently, many Forest Service projects are carried out using
    expedited permitting authorities, and any additional
    flexibilities, I would like to see a focus on those facing
    wildfire risk. Are there targeted improvements to the
    permitting process this Committee should consider that could
    lead to more active forest management?
        Mr. Beum. Well, what I would say is that we have been
    working--when I was still working, we worked closely with Fish
    and Wildlife Service on ESA compliance and other issues with
    historic preservation that we really do need to find ways to be
    more proactive, quicker in that work, and there are some
    efficiencies I believe we can find. I know the agency was
    working hard on that, and we could certainly do more with that.
        Senator Klobuchar. During your tenure as Regional Forester
    of the Rocky Mountain region, did you feel like the Forest
    Service having fewer staff and resources would help it
    accomplish more work? I know it is a really tough question.
        Mr. Beum. Yes, thanks for the softball. No, ma'am.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Beum. What I would say additionally is that, if I were
    chief for a day, I would flip the organization chart upside
    down and put the districts at the top of our organization. That
    is where the work is done. That is where we meet people, and
    these cuts that we have been talking about are just at the
    wrong place. They are cutting people on the ground that get the
    work done that we need to have done.
        Senator Klobuchar. I get it. If you could look at it, you
    know, as a manager, you would make them--and if you wanted to
    make some changes, you would do them in a different way than is
    being done now?
        Mr. Beum. Certainly would, yes.
        Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.
        Mr. Beum. Thank you.
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. Senator
    Hoeven.
        Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank
    all the witnesses for being here.
        Mr. Weiner, in North Dakota, we have national grasslands.
    We have national grasslands both in the Western part of the
    State, but also in the Southeast part of the State as well, and
    we do a lot of grazing out there. Talk to me a little bit about
    your thoughts in regard to the dual benefits that livestock
    grazing can have, both in terms of promoting more fire-
    resistant, healthy landscapes, and of course, at the same time,
    really helping our ranchers.
        Mr. Weiner. Yes, thank for the question, Senator. I
    appreciate that. I think one great point that this brings up is
    that while the bill is called the Fix Our Forests Act, this is
    really about all types of landscapes impacted by fire. We think
    about chaparral landscapes that were impacted in the Los
    Angeles fires recently, and absolutely grazing landscapes like
    you have in North Dakota. One of the best tools that we have is
    grazing. We are really thrilled that the Fix Our Forests Act
    includes provisions to streamline authorities and approvals for
    targeted grazing projects, allowing cattlemen access to public
    lands for grazing in fire-prone areas.
        I think the other piece of this is the value of the
    Fireshed Center in helping States like North Dakota that have
    emergent wildfire risk, understand what their risk profile is
    on the ground, and act accordingly, right? I think a lot of the
    great work that has been done in the wildfire technology space
    in terms of understanding what is happening on the ground is
    being done at the State and local level with very well-
    resourced States and local governments. Other smaller States
    across the West are going to have a lot of catching up to do,
    and we think this center is going to be really helpful in
    helping----
        Senator Hoeven. Yes. I mean, when these wildfires get going
    in the grasslands, I mean, we have had them burn down some
    small towns, last year, killed several people. It is very
    serious, and we have to be able to address them. In a lot of
    cases, you know, we have the ranchers out there themselves,
    along with volunteer fire departments trying to help, you know,
    contain these fires. Of course, the State does a lot too with,
    you know, helicopters and fire suppression and so forth.
        Wildfire seasons have turned into wildfire years, and costs
    have increased 82 percent to address it over the past decade.
    Talk a little bit about, you know, in this legislation, you
    know, what can you do in terms of cost savings to really change
    that?
        Mr. Weiner. Yes. Well, I think that, first of all, the fact
    that we spend so much time with the permitting and planning
    side would be a problem at the Forest Service, even if it was
    not going through the crisis that it is going through right
    now.
        Senator Hoeven. Talk specifically about permitting, how it
    is really going to work. You know, President Trump issued
    emergency action right now. How are you going to get permitting
    improved so it really works and is timely?
        Mr. Weiner. Yes----
        Senator Hoeven. Does this bill do it? How does it do it?
        Mr. Weiner. I think this bill does do that. I think it does
    that through bringing a process to the emergency authority that
    is relevant to what President Trump announced and that Governor
    Newsom in California announced very recently. Bring----
        Senator Hoeven. Okay. There, good point. Does that mean you
    can get the bipartisan--you had President Trump do it, and you
    have also had Governor Newsom do it.
        Mr. Weiner. Yes.
        Senator Hoeven. That really speaks to we ought to be able
    to pass this thing on a bipartisan basis and get this done,
    right, an actual solution in place, right?
        Mr. Weiner. Yes, Senator.
        Senator Hoeven. Okay.
        Mr. Weiner. The folks who are responsible for managing risk
    on landscapes, the executives out there are moving in this
    direction in a bipartisan basis, and Congress should help put a
    process in place to make sure that it meets the desired goals.
        Senator Hoeven. Yes, thanks.
        Mr. Gordon, I want to ask you about this interface where we
    have the urban areas encroaching on these forests, right? That
    is happening all the time. You know, we just saw the dramatic,
    horrible consequences in California of that, you know,
    confluence of urban areas, you know, and these forests. Speak
    to what this bill does to really address that, a critically
    important and life safety issue.
        Mr. Gordon. Yes, it is a growing issue, and to the extent
    that we are going to continue to build in these risky areas,
    and now a majority of new homes are being built in areas with
    wildfire risk, we have to do more wildfire safety,
    preparedness, and mitigation. This bill makes the upfront
    investments that we need to do to save people, to make it more
    affordable long term. It includes things like encouraging
    hardening existing homes with wildfire-resistant materials,
    removing hazardous fuels, vegetation management. You talked
    about grazing, so important to reduce those fuel loads,
    programs to better coordinate the various Federal programs and
    Federal and State services. This bill is really important to
    make the upfront investments to make those buildings insurable
    and affordable long term.
        Senator Hoeven. Right on and very timely, so thanks to you,
    Mr. Chairman and the Ranking Member, for this hearing. Thanks
    to the witnesses.
        Chairman Marshall. Thanks, Senator Hoeven. Senator Lujan is
    next.
        Senator Lujan. Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. I very
    much appreciate this hearing and to all the panelists who are
    here today.
        Far too many communities in New Mexico and States across
    the country are terrified about fire season, and it is only
    getting longer. In 2022 the Hermits Peak/Calf Canyon Fire in
    New Mexico, which was started by the U.S. Forest Service as a
    controlled burn, largest fire in the State's history, billion
    dollars of damages, cost New Mexicans their livelihoods. I was
    told at the time that prescribed burns do not get out of
    control, very few, less than a 10th of a percent.
        About three months later, we had a second one in New
    Mexico, burnt another community up, all because folks did not
    want to use the technology that was available, but just wanted
    to use their hands and their eyes and see if it was warm or
    not. We all know what happens when a stump catches on fire and
    it goes down deep. It stays smoldering. It does not get put
    out, and all it takes is a little bit of a breeze for it to
    kick up.
        I am proud to have successfully led the New Mexico
    delegation in securing funding in a specific act because of the
    liability of the Federal Government. I am still not happy at
    the pace that funding is flowing to people back home. That is a
    whole other conversation that we need to have. Once the fires
    do start, we have to have the people power and wildfire
    modeling capacity to contain and extinguish the flames.
        Mr. Weiner, thank you for calling attention to the
    bipartisan Regional Leadership and Wildland Fire Research Act
    that I and Senators Sullivan and Sheehy and Padilla worked on
    together, and thank you for your work in assisting us to get
    this done. Can you speak to the importance of developing next-
    generation fire and vegetation models to support wildland fire
    management and rehabilitation?
        Mr. Weiner. Absolutely. Thank you, Senator, and thank you
    for your work on that legislation. We think that that piece of
    legislation is crucial on the wildfire science side of this
    conversation, and we should think about how to make sure it is
    coordinating effectively with the Fireshed Center in this bill.
        You know, as you mentioned, wildfire behavior is changing
    rapidly. We are seeing facts on the ground change as the fires
    are burning, and we have the tools with advanced modeling to
    get a handle on how things are likely to play out and act
    accordingly. I think that your legislation and the Fireshed
    Center in particular can help enable that.
        I think it is important to also recognize a lot of the
    cutting-edge work happening here is happening in the private
    sector, and they do not have a partner in the Federal
    Government to work on these issues effectively with right now.
    I think we do need to think about how we can enable the
    innovation happening in the private sector on advanced modeling
    and make sure that we put those tools in the hands of
    decisionmakers at every level as quickly as possible.
        Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. I am reminded that, as a
    country, we spend billions of dollars improving our
    understanding of hurricanes and tornadoes. It might surprise a
    lot of people, but in New Mexico, we do not have a lot of
    hurricanes.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Lujan. We do not invest at the same level for
    catastrophic fires. I do not understand this. This is a part of
    America that has just been left out.
        Mr. Weiner. Yes.
        Senator Lujan. Well, now there are three western Senators
    on this Committee, and I do not believe that is going to happen
    anymore.
        Mr. Weiner, why is it important that this modeling and
    technology is developed and targeted for specific regions of
    the country?
        Mr. Weiner. Yes, I think first to your point on hurricanes,
    you know, historically, hurricanes have been a bigger driver of
    damage in the United States, and so catastrophic fire, as we
    recognize it now, has only been around for a couple decades,
    and our systems have been slow to respond. A single hurricane
    hunter costs more than a decade of wildfire science research at
    the Federal level, so we definitely need to catch up in that
    space.
        Senator Lujan. I appreciate that.
        Mr. Weiner. And----
        Senator Lujan. Go ahead.
        Mr. Weiner. I was just going to say, as regards to
    different landscapes, I think it is really crucial that we have
    a regional approach so that we can look at the difference in
    fire risk in places like Hawaii, in the Great Plains where
    there is a very different risk, in chaparral-based landscapes
    in the Southwest, and comparing that to forested landscapes,
    all of which have different risk profiles, different things to
    need to look out for and understand if you are a manager. We
    think it is critical that we take a regional approach to that.
        Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. Well, while I enjoy both
    beef and lamb, I will just remind my friends that while cattle
    graze, sheep mow----
        Mr. Weiner. Yes.
        Senator Lujan [continuing].--so we may need some more of
    them on these grasslands as well.
        Mr. Weiner. Oh, sheep are a big part of it. We are
    supportive of them.
        Senator Lujan. Well----
        Mr. Weiner. I should have said that earlier.
        Senator Lujan [continuing].--we should talk about that.
    Well, I am not going to get into the pricing of the meat.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Lujan. I appreciate the question that Senator
    Bennet asked about staffing. You answered that question. It is
    a problem. I had a constituent from the Southwestern part of
    New Mexico give me a holler because she was worried that her
    husband, who is a wildland firefighter, there was a freeze of
    hiring, and then people that he worked with were terminated.
    She said, if a fire happens, is he going to come home or not? I
    think we need to be thinking about that aspect of this.
        I would ask my Republican colleagues, look, any of you that
    hunt or fish, invite President Trump out west. Take him hunting
    and fishing so he can go into these wooded areas and take a
    look at them. I think we need to get a good understanding of
    the Western part of America so that way we can be working on
    this stuff. This is common sense. It is not Democrat or
    Republican. This is about the United States. The Western
    members have been working closely together. I hope that, you
    know, those of us that do not know each other well yet, I hope
    to get to know you. We will invite you out. I will take you
    fishing, I will take you hunting, but you have to be
    comfortable hunting with the other person I mentioned, so that
    is up to you all.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Lujan. There are some other areas as well in
    recovery, Mr. Chairman, I hope we can talk to at a later time.
    I will submit them into the record.
        Now that we have had these devastating fires, you know, I
    have been surprised that only New Mexico and Idaho have the
    ability to be able to produce the seedlings necessary for
    recovery here. We need to be looking at what we can be doing in
    this space so that way we are preventing, we have better tools
    to fight when this happens, but then we also look at recovery.
    I hope that we can all talk about that.
        Then the last thing I will say is, do not forget about the
    flooding that happens for five, six, ten years after a fire
    hits in the West because it is equally devastating. We need to
    make sure that all the rules are updating themselves or we can
    help update them so that people are not getting hurt because of
    that stuff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Marshall. Thanks, Senator Lujan. I will accept
    your invitation as long as it is flyfishing on a stream.
        Senator Lujan. Done.
        Chairman Marshall. Okay. I got to take my dad fishing this
    Sunday in the Flint Hills for the first time this spring, so it
    is always a great signal that spring is on the way. You bet.
        Chairman Marshall. Senator Justice, thanks for your
    patience. You are recognized.
        Senator Justice. I am new to the game in lots of ways--
    thank you, sir--but I have got a lot of white hair, and I have
    been around a lot, and I can tell you--and absolutely, please,
    let me accept the invitation as well because there is nobody in
    here, nobody that has been in the woods or on the waters more
    than I, nobody. I get it. I truly get it.
        The thing that is absolutely amazing to me is, I would just
    say, simply just this, whether it be all of our unbelievable
    farmlands and the contribution of our small family farms, or
    whether it be our unbelievable forest that we are absolutely
    seeing right now that we got a real problem, and America needs
    to react. That is all there is to it. I mean, it is just as
    simple as just that.
        We got all the smarts in the world here to figure it out as
    to what to do, but we just will not react. We just think it is
    going to be okay. Well, it is not going to be okay. I mean,
    these fires absolutely are killing our--and I just wrote down
    just a couple of points here--our air, our waters, our soil,
    our nutrients, absolutely our wildlife, and more than anything,
    our soul, our soul. Then for those of us that have been on a
    stream with a fly rod in your hand or seen the absolutely
    majesty of all the stuff of wildlife all around us we are
    killing our soul, America. That is all there is to it. We have
    got to wake up. We have got to react. Not only do we have to
    react, but we got to react within days almost. That is all
    there is to it when it really boils down to it.
        Here is a solution, you know, that I can provide to you
    very quickly, you know, from the standpoint of West Virginia.
    You know, we have lost all of our cabinetry, and we have lost
    all of our furniture business, and we lost it to Vietnam and
    China and Mexico. It is gone. Well, absolutely, how do we get
    it back?
        I mean, think about this. In West Virginia, we cut 1/3 of
    our growth. We do not manage our forests in West Virginia any
    better than the problems in the West. We got to do something.
    You know, with all that being said, the canopy, we cut 1/3 of
    our growth. Think about this just a second. What if we created
    some form of funding, whatever it may be, and said, I will tell
    you what we are going to do, we are going to rate our States.
    In this situation, West Virginia would rate really well, but we
    are going to rate our contribution. Do you know that when we
    take and cut a tree and it turns into this right here, the
    carbon is frozen in this forever. The carbon does not go into
    the atmosphere, but if it falls down on the ground because we
    are not cutting but 1/3 of our growth, and we are not managing
    our forests, and we get any kind of level of forest fire, and
    in West Virginia, we get 800 a year. They are not bad, but 800
    a year.
        What happens to this carbon when the fire goes through?
    Poof, right back into the atmosphere. We all absolutely, our
    hair on fire about carbon in the atmosphere. Why don't we do
    something about it? Why don't we say, I will tell you what we
    are going to do, we are going to create some kind of management
    funding or whatever, and we are going to apply that toward
    labor back in States and rate it and scale it and absolutely,
    then bring our absolute furniture and cabinetry, you know,
    manufacturing back to the back to us instead of it being in
    another country.
        There are so many things we can be doing. The intelligence
    is all right here. We need to do it on a bipartisan, you know,
    matter. Absolutely, without any question, we can do it, and we
    can do it right now, absolutely. The question is, will America
    react?
        With that being said, I would say I stand ready to work
    with anybody, anybody. I stand ready to accept that invitation
    too. You will see that you will see that I am a hunter, I am a
    fisherman, I am a person that loves the outdoors, and I am a
    person that wants to absolutely preserve our soul. If we do not
    watch out, what we are doing, what we are doing right now is
    ludicrous. Let's figure a way to figure this out, and we need
    to do it right now.
        Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Justice.
        Now it looks like we have a contest to see who the second-
    best fisherman in the Senate is.
        [Laughter.]
        Chairman Marshall. Senator Schiff, you are next.
        Senator Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to
    the witnesses for being here.
        Matt, I am sorry I missed the chance to introduce you
    earlier. Matt and I have known each other a long time when he
    served as the Executive Director of the California Democratic
    Congressional Delegation and advised our Chair Zoe Lofgren,
    Speaker Pelosi, as well as 42 Democratic Members of the House
    on California policy. I appreciate how you brought that
    expertise to bear in trying to tackle this very difficult
    problem.
        We are seeing in California what Americans are seeing all
    over the country, that wildfires are now characterized by a
    longer fire season, by more massive size, by more acres burned
    every year. The loss of life in Altadena and the Palisades, the
    loss of homes and businesses was just devastating. With the
    100-mile-an-hour winds, it was just an irresistible force to be
    reckoned with.
        I appreciate all of your efforts to try to improve our
    forest management so that we can reduce the chances of these
    fires and the work that is being done on a bipartisan basis by
    my colleague, Scott Peters from California, and Congressman
    Westerman.
        I have concerns about the bill, which I think many
    Democrats in the House shared when this bill came before the
    House, that parts of the bill seem more focused on timber
    harvesting than they do on wildfire mitigation. They are not
    concerns that cannot be overcome. There are, I think, good-
    faith negotiations going on to try to make changes to the bill
    that would, I think, potentially, dramatically expand support
    for the bill, and I am hoping that we can get to yes on those
    changes.
        One of the reasons I think there is skepticism about the
    priority in the bill being more on wildfire and less on timber
    or vice versa is the issue that my colleague, Senator Bennet,
    was raising, and that is that so many of the actions we are
    taking right now are completely counterproductive, that have
    nothing to do with the need to change law, but they involve the
    laying off of firefighters, the hiring freeze on other
    firefighters, the termination of 3,400 employees at the Forest
    Service, the funding freeze affecting the halt of hazardous
    fuels reduction. All of this is moving us in the wrong
    direction, and so it is hard to make the case for the urgency
    of legislation when we are taking steps that are nonlegislative
    that are moving us in the wrong direction. I hope that we can
    both restore these employees in this workforce and this
    important work, and at the same time, make improvements to the
    bill and get this moving.
        I would like, if I could--I received a letter from the
    Lomakatsi Project, which I request unanimous consent to be
    entered in the record.
        [The letters can be found on page 125-126 in the appendix.]
        Senator Schiff. I thank you.
        This project is a forestry and workforce development
    organization in Oregon and California. Their work has resulted
    in thousands of acres of hazardous fuels reduction, millions of
    feet of timber sent to mills, billions of dollars saved in
    avoided property damage and firefighting costs, and freezing
    the funds has really adversely impacted their efforts.
        The question I would like to ask, and I will throw it open
    to the panel, is, you know, first, how do we make sure that we
    are not making the problem worse with some of the actions we
    are seeing now? Second, how can we address some of the
    legitimate concerns that have been raised in the bill that some
    of the provisions go beyond what would be necessary for
    wildfire prevention and risk without adequate public input,
    taking actions that really could hurt the very forests we are
    trying to save? If you could comment on those efforts to
    negotiate some of those difficulties, and I yield to the panel.
        Chairman Marshall. Well, let's just be brief here. We are
    at five minutes, so maybe one minute for an answer here.
        Mr. Weiner. I can quickly speak to the last question,
    Senator, and thank you for the introduction. I found that when
    we engaged in the process with Chairman Westerman and Scott
    Peters to a lot of raised eyebrows from a lot of the
    conservation community, what we found was an incredibly
    productive process and a good-faith process in terms of working
    to identify some of those challenges you raised.
        I think we are really heartened that there is a bipartisan
    group of Senators working to look at a Senate companion bill
    right now, but I think the bottom line for us is we think that
    it can continue to be improved in the Senate, and I think that
    we have good-faith partners in the House to get that done and
    make sure that this bill does what it says it will do.
        Senator Schiff. I thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We
    are obviously coordinating with my colleague, Senator Padilla,
    to try to be a constructive part of those negotiations. Thank
    you, and I yield back.
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Schiff.
        Senator Warnock, you are next.
        Senator Warnock. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
        Many of my colleagues here today represent States that are
    at high risk for large-scale wildfires. Wildfires are not
    limited to the West. Atlanta is known as the city in the forest
    because of the city's dense tree canopy, and about 2/3 of
    Georgia is covered with forests, putting it at risk for
    wildfires. In fact, the National Interagency Fire Center
    predicts Georgia and much of the Southeast will be at above-
    average risk for wildfires over the next couple of months. In
    the last week alone, Georgia has seen over 4,000 acres burn,
    and neighboring South Carolina's Governor declared a state of
    emergency due to wildfires.
        Mr. Beum, what are some of the contributing factors that
    are increasing Georgia's wildfire risk?
        Mr. Beum. Thank you for the question, Senator. You know,
    our weather patterns are certainly contributing to the wildfire
    risk. What we are seeing right now in the Carolinas, what we
    saw in Georgia, we saw at Gatlinburg, there is a number of
    things that were really, quite frankly, shocking. I worked in
    the South for a number of years and did not anticipate those
    type of fires happening in the South, and they do. Climate
    change is probably a factor. There are a number of factors to
    that, in addition, the lengthening of the season. Again, we do
    not really refer to fire seasons anymore; it is a fire year.
        Senator Warnock. Right. I think climate change is clearly a
    contributing factor not only to wildfires. I can tell you
    something else that climate change is clearly causing is more
    frequent, larger, and stronger hurricanes. Last fall, Hurricane
    Helene, ravaged the Southeast, including Georgia. I remember
    spending time on the ground with folks who had lost everything.
    Helene paved a path of destruction all the way from the bottom
    of the State to the top, taking down 8.9 million acres of
    timber with it.
        Mr. Beum, can you describe the increased fire risk of
    fallen trees from stronger storms create?
        Mr. Beum. Yes, Senator, thank you for the question. Anytime
    we have trees falling in the forest like that, they will start
    to decay, and you get a fire through there, and they will
    contribute to the intensity of that fire. In the South, that
    might take a year for those trees to dry out and be a large
    woody fuel for a fire, but regardless, that is a significant
    increased fire risk in the State because of hurricanes.
        Senator Warnock. Given that risk, how important is swift
    cleanup?
        Mr. Beum. Very important, sir.
        Senator Warnock. I ask that question because at this time
    of increased wildfire risk across the Southeast, the Trump
    Administration is firing the very workers who are responsible
    for mitigating that risk through storm cleanup and proper
    forest management. Will these firings help or hurt Georgia's
    ability to mitigate wildfire risk?
        Mr. Beum. As I stated earlier, sir, they will absolutely
    hurt the ability for Georgia to mitigate that fire risk.
        Senator Warnock. I agree, and I think we need legislation
    to require our Federal agencies take on more responsibility to
    address wildfires. If Congress does not provide them with
    proper resources and adequate staffing, we are not setting them
    up for success. I look forward to working with my colleagues to
    address these shortfalls as we work toward a comprehensive
    wildfire strategy bill. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Beum. Thank you, sir. I would add just one piece, that
    through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation
    Reduction Act that was passed previous Congresses, infusion to
    the Forest Service was generational money to address wildfire
    mitigation. Even so, $5 billion, north of $5 billion, that is a
    down payment in what is really needed. I do not even know what
    the figure might be, $20 billion, $30 billion.
        Senator Warnock. It is an important point, especially since
    there are efforts right now in Congress to take that back.
        Mr. Beum. Yes, sir.
        Senator Warnock. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Beum. Thank you.
        Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Warnock. Senator
    Booker.
        Senator Booker. The grace and generosity of our Chairman
    and our Ranking Member for letting a guy that is not on this
    Subcommittee come in. What a lot of folks in this room do not
    know is that New Jersey is a forest State. Yes, I am glad you
    all know that. Forty percent of my State is covered by forest,
    and last year, we had some horrible, horrible forest fires. I
    know a lot of attention is to the West of Jersey, but allow my
    Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen Jersey pride to come out here
    and come before you all right now.
        What my friend and brother Warnock were talking about,
    these catastrophic wildfires are being caused by climate
    change. This is because climate change has led to higher
    temperatures, extended droughts, earlier snowmelt, which create
    higher, drier conditions for longer fire seasons, which we are
    all seeing, and even again, worse conditions in New Jersey.
        We know that to combat climate change, one of the things we
    need to do is actually preserve our existing forests. I have
    been working with our current Secretary of Agriculture trying
    to continue a lot of our tree planting efforts, but especially
    our old growth forests, we just need to get more trees in the
    ground. We also need to engage in large-scale efforts to reduce
    the amount of hazardous fuel that has accumulated into our
    forests, as many people have testified today. Really the
    massively scaling up of the amount of prescribed burns that we
    are doing, I think that is important.
        Unfortunately, we have seen with an executive order by the
    President, as well as this version of the Fix Our Forests Act,
    which passed the House, would do the opposite of this, and are
    instead focused on cutting down our forests, not planting more.
    In order to fix this act, which I think it is important, as
    everybody said, how we work in a bipartisan way, I believe
    there is some changes that we need to make, and I want to
    mention a few.
        In section 121 of the bill, this would severely restrict
    judicial reviews of agency actions. These provisions need to be
    deleted in their entirety in my opinion. Right now, we are
    dealing with an administration that will take any action, legal
    or not that I am seeing, that will only check against those
    illegal actions in the judiciary, and we need to make sure we
    preserve that ability.
        The second area that I wanted to point out in this hearing
    was in section 121 which shortened the statute limitations from
    six years to 120 days. I believe some shortening may be
    appropriate but do not believe it should be reduced to less
    than one year. We should not limit who has standing to bring
    these challenges.
        Finally, in section 106 of the bill, this would shift when
    environmental reviews happen from prior to agency actions to
    after those actions have already happened, essentially making
    the reviews meaningless. This bill is already watering down the
    NEPA and ESA reviews that will happen, but it is critical that
    those reviews continue to happen prior to projects commencing.
        A final concern with the bill that I will mention and
    really lead into a question is the proposed increase in
    categorical exclusions up to 10,000 acres. Mr. Houck, if you do
    not mind because you have the best haircut of everybody up
    there, can you please talk about what the impact would be on
    both the environmental reviews and community participation of
    categorical exclusions were increased from 3,000 acres all the
    way up to 10,000 acres?
        Mr. Houck. Yes, Senator, thank you for the question. My
    experience in Gunnison County, and I think it would probably be
    applicable to maybe the Pine Barrens as much as the Rocky
    Mountain West, but the idea that having the communities that
    are closest to this involved in that process are important. My
    concern with the watering down or increasing the threshold for
    these categorical exclusions would be that it does not allow
    the more robust issues to be discussed in a way where there is
    upfront input from local government, from industry, and also
    from other folks in communities that are invested. Then on the
    back end, what they are going to do is litigate in order to
    slow things down. Sometimes the idea of going slow to go fast
    is there.
        I agree that there is opportunities for reform. I think
    that this bill has the seeds of that. When I look at the
    Wildfire Commission report, it seems to be that would be kind
    of a good north star to find some direction about how to mold
    and shape some of the----
        Senator Booker. Answer me this, and if you answer it as
    well as that first question, I am going to do a Sense of the
    Senate Resolution that you can become an honorary New Jerseyan.
    Can you please just sort of expand on your written testimony,
    which I thought was really appointed, that NEPA and ESA have
    not been a problem in developing and implementing vegetation
    management projects, and say more about what the real causes of
    the delay in project implementation are in your view? Because I
    believe we need to cut bureaucracy and get things done, but it
    seems like you were saying that the delay in project
    implementation is not the NEPA and ESA.
        Mr. Houck. What I have experienced in Gunnison County and
    in western Colorado is often it is the contracting, the time it
    takes the contracting and getting the resources on the ground
    after the environmental analysis has been done. That has been
    more of an impediment to getting good work done on the ground
    in my neck of the woods than the actual NEPA.
        Senator Booker. Free tolls on the Jersey Turnpike. Thank
    you very much, sir.
        Chairman Marshall. Is that for everybody, Senator Booker?
        Senator Booker. No, sir. No, sir.
        Chairman Marshall. Okay.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Booker. Bennet must pay.
        Chairman Marshall. There you go. Thank you so much.
        Senator Bennet, any closing remarks?
        Senator Bennet. No, I just want to thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    It has been an excellent hearing. Chair, I know you had a
    million places to be. Thank you. Critically important our
    country and grateful. To the witnesses, thank you all. It was a
    pleasure to hear the depth of your knowledge, the depth of your
    commitment. I think there is a broad view that we can move
    forward on here. I look forward to working with you, Chairman.
        Chairman Marshall. Well, thank you, Senator Bennet.
        A big thank you to our witnesses again. I know that this
    was short notice. You gave up personal time. You put this
    together. Your statements will be reviewed over and your
    questions as well. The record will be open for five business
    days.
        I want to say a big thanks to our staff members too, both
    the Ranking Member's and my personal staff. The Committee
    Members on both sides of the aisle did an incredible job of
    putting this together, made it a very, very, very productive
    meeting as well. I think this says a lot, the House Speaker
    Johnson saying this is a priority to get it across the finish
    line this early in a Congress. Appreciate the Chairman and
    Ranking Member of the larger Committee saying this is a
    priority to have a hearing as well.
        What we do not have much up here is oxygen. There is just a
    finite amount of issues we can get across the finish line. I do
    think this is something we can get across the finish line, and
    look forward to working with the Ranking Member and his team as
    well.
        Today's hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 12:48 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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                                A P P E N D I X

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                       DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

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                             QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

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