[Senate Hearing 119-24]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 119-24
NOMINATION OF KEITH SONDERLING TO
SERVE AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF LABOR
=======================================================================
HEARING
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION,
LABOR, AND PENSIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
EXAMINING THE NOMINATION OF KEITH SONDERLING, OF FLORIDA,
TO BE DEPUTY SECRETARY OF LABOR
__________
FEBRUARY 27, 2025
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-493 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS
BILL CASSIDY, M.D., Louisiana, Chairman
RAND PAUL, M.D., Kentucky BERNIE SANDERS (I), Vermont,
SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine Ranking Member
LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska PATTY MURRAY, Washington
MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
ROGER MARSHALL, M.D., Kansas CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina TIM KAINE, Virginia
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire
TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
JIM BANKS, Indiana ED MARKEY, Massachusetts
JON HUSTED, Ohio ANDY KIM, New Jersey
ASHLEY MOODY, Florida LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
ANGELA ALSOBROOKS, Maryland
Amanda Lincoln, Majority Staff Director
Danielle Janowski, Majority Deputy Staff Director
Warren Gunnels, Minority Staff Director
Zain Rizvi, Minority Deputy Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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STATEMENTS
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2025
Page
Committee Members
Cassidy, Hon. Bill, Chairman, Committee on Health, Education,
Labor, and Pensions, Opening statement......................... 1
Scott, Hon. Rick, U.S. Senator from the State of Florida, Opening
statement...................................................... 2
LeMieux, Hon. George, U.S. Senator from the State of Florida,
Opening statement.............................................. 3
Witnesses
Sonderling, Hon. Keith, Boca, FL................................. 4
Prepared statement........................................... 5
QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Response by Keith Sonderling to questions of:
Senator Murray............................................... 35
Senator Kaine................................................ 36
Senator Hassan............................................... 37
Senator Hickenlooper......................................... 38
Senator Markey............................................... 38
Senator Blunt Rochester...................................... 45
Senator Alsobrooks........................................... 47
NOMINATION OF KEITH SONDERLING TO
SERVE AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF LABOR
----------
Thursday, February 27, 2025
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:51 a.m., in
room SD-562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bill Cassidy,
presiding.
Present: Senators Cassidy [presiding], Murkowski, Marshall,
Hawley, Banks, Husted, Moody, Murray, Baldwin, Murphy, Kaine,
Hassan, Hickenlooper, Markey, Kim, Blunt Rochester, and
Alsobrooks.
Also present: Senators Scott and LeMieux.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CASSIDY
The Chairman. The Senate Committee on Health, Education,
Labor, and Pensions will please come to order. Mr. Sonderling,
thank you for appearing before the Committee and for your
willingness to again serve the American people, this time as
Deputy Secretary of Labor.
The Deputy Secretary of Labor is not only the second in
command of the Department of Labor, but serves as the Chief
Operating Officer managing 17,000 employees and a $14 billion
budget. The Deputy Secretary leads sub-agencies within DOL,
guiding policy-making, regulation and enforcement of the
Nation's labor laws.
If confirmed, Mr. Sonderling will play a crucial role in
enacting President Trump's pro worker agenda. Based on his
extensive experience in labor and employment policy, both as a
public servant and as a law professor, it is clear Mr.
Sonderling is qualified. Mr. Sonderling previously led DOL's
Wage and Hour Division, and served as Commissioner to the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission, in the first Trump
administration.
When President Trump nominated Mr. Sonderling as the EEOC
Commissioner in 2020, the Senate confirmed him with bipartisan
support. As Commissioner, Mr. Sonderling worked in a
nonpartisan manner to address illegal workplace discrimination
and enforce laws as Congress intended. When Democrat EEOC
members attempted to disregard Congressional authority and
inject progressive ideology into regulations, Mr. Sonderling
opposed these efforts. I'm confident that he will bring this
sense of duty and commitment to the rule of law if confirmed as
Deputy Secretary.
While, at the Wage and Hour Division, Mr. Sonderling was
instrumental in developing President Trump's independent
contractor policy, empowering millions of workers to earn a
living in the manner in which they choose. He also clarified
the joint employer standard, protecting the American franchise
model employing over 9 million Americans.
The Biden administration overturned these common-sense
policies, enacting a labor agenda hurting workers and the
Nation's economy. With President Trump back in office and new
DOL leadership, I look forward to the return of pro-worker
regulations at the department.
Thank you for appearing before the Committee. I look
forward to hearing more about how you will implement President
Trump's pro-American agenda to empower all workers and to
create economic growth nationwide.
I understand that, obviously, Senator Sanders is not here.
So, before we turn to the nominee for his opening statement,
Mr. Sonderling will be introduced by Senator Rick Scott and
former U.S. Senator, George LeMieux. Of course, Senator, we
would pronounce that differently in Louisiana, but I'll give
you the Englishisation so, Senator Scott, you are recognized
for introductory remarks.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SCOTT
Senator Scott. Thank you, Chairman Cassidy, Members of
Committee. It's an honor to sit for you today to introduce a
fellow Floridian, good friend, Keith Sonderling, to this
Committee. I'd also like to recognize the many other Floridians
here today, including Keith's parents, Barbara and Howard from
Boca Raton, his wife, Fara from Aventura, also my good friend,
George LeMieux.
In nominating yet another Floridian to his Administration,
President Trump made an excellent choice in Keith to serve as
Deputy Secretary of Labor. Throughout his career, Keith has
proven time and again, his deep respect for the rule of law and
his abiding interest in the well-being of American workers and
business owners. I know firsthand that Keith will succeed as
the Deputy Secretary of Labor.
While I was Governor of Florida, I had the pleasure of
appointing him to serve on the Florida Judicial Nominating
Commission, for appellate courts in South Florida when he was
just 29 years old. At the time, he was one of the youngest in
the state's history to serve.
He was tasked with recommending to me who should receive an
appellate court judgeship. Historically serving on this
commission, reserved for the most senior attorneys in the
state, but we saw this as an opportunity to give young leaders
with great potential a chance to gain experience and prove
themselves without waiting decades to serve. Keith has done
just that, and I've been incredibly proud to see his success.
His effectiveness and good judgment were shown throughout his
term.
He was quickly selected as chair and served with
distinction. Played a significant role in reforming the
nominating selection process. At the same time, Keith excelled
at the private sector by quickly becoming one of the youngest
partners in one of Florida's oldest and most prestigious law
firms. He has had a considerable impact throughout the state,
serving leadership positions in numerous non-profit
organizations.
After serving the people of Florida, Keith left us to serve
all Americans and the Federal Government. During President
Trump's first term, Keith served at the U.S. Department of
Labor, overseeing a record number of enforcement recoveries,
and writing regulations that helped workers and assisted
businesses in complying with the law.
Just as I did, President Trump quickly realized Keith's
potential and then nominated him as Commissioner of the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission. Like many Committee Members
here today, I proudly voted for his confirmation in 2020.
Throughout his career, he has gone above and beyond to reach
out to American workers and businesses to provide guidance and
resources to help them comply with and navigate our Country's
labor laws.
I can say with full confidence that Keith has served the
people of Florida and the United States with distinction, and
he is supremely qualified to serve as Deputy Secretary of
Labor. On behalf of the 23 million residents of Florida, thanks
for making us proud and best of luck today. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Scott.
Senator LeMieux.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LEMIEUX
Senator LeMieux. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You've already
heard a lot about Mr. Sonderling's impressive public service.
Let me tell you a little bit about Mr. Sonderling from a
perspective of a fellow Floridian and someone who worked
shoulder to shoulder with him at the Gunster Law Firm.
I've known Mr. Sonderling since he started his career in
law. He is an expert in labor and employment issues. He not
only counseled clients on those issues, but litigated them.
He's hardworking, he's fair, he's honest, he's practical, and
he's a problem solver, and he will do a great job as the Deputy
Secretary of Labor.
While in Florida, not only was he chairing the Judicial
Nominating Commission that Senator Scott spoke about, but he
was very involved in his community with the Chamber, with
Leadership Florida, with Morse life. And he's a father of two
young sons and a husband to his wife. They have a great family
and he is a great person.
I can speak with personal experience as to his integrity
and his ability to do a good job at public service. And I think
that he will be unquantifiably a great Deputy Secretary of
Labor. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Sonderling, do you have an opening statement, introduce
your family?
STATEMENT OF HON. KEITH SONDERLING, BOCA RATON, FL
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, first, Senator Scott, and
Senator LeMieux. Thank you so much for that kind introduction.
I'm so grateful to both of your mentorships. Chairman Cassidy,
Ranking Member Sanders, and other Members of the Committee.
First of all, it's really an honor to appear before all of you,
again, this time as President Trump's nominee to be the Deputy
Secretary of Labor. I'm beyond grateful to the President for
the opportunity to continue to serve our Nation.
In 2020, I had the honor of being unanimously approved by
this Committee as President Trump's nominee to be a
commissioner on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. I
was subsequently confirmed by a bipartisan vote of the Senate.
For the last 8 years, I have worked directly with Members of
this Committee on both sides of the aisle, on issues that
impact hundreds of millions of American workers and employers.
Over the past few weeks, it has been a pleasure to meet
with many of you and learn more about your state's workforce
challenges and opportunities. During our meetings, I promised
that if confirmed, I'll continue my longstanding commitment to
work together to shape the future of the American workforce
through President Trump's America First agenda.
I want to take a brief moment to honor the people who have
supported me throughout my life. My parents who are here today,
provided a firm foundation on which I'm able to build a life of
public service. My wife, Fara, my No. 1 supporter, recognizes
my deep commitment to serving our Country, and of course, our
two little boys, a 3-year-old and a 2-month-old, who are
definitely not watching C-Span like everyone else right now.
I also want to thank my colleagues at the Department of
Labor and the EEOC for the chance to work with such dedicated
professionals and for everyone's encouragement for my next
opportunity to serve.
On a personal note, I think it is important to share what I
consider to be a fundamental characteristic of who I am. I'm
the grandchild of Holocaust survivors. My interest in
protecting all Americans' rights in the workplace is
undoubtedly shaped by my grandparents, who despite suffering
unspeakable tragedies, were able to achieve the American dream.
My grandmother, as a young girl, survived a concentration
camp, only by fleeing into the woods during a death march. My
grandfather escaped the horrors of the Warsaw Ghetto, and then
joined the Allied Forces. My grandparents lost generations of
family members during the war. Fortunately, they were able to
immigrate to the United States.
However, once settled, they encountered more subtle forms
of religious discrimination than those that they faced at the
hands of the Nazis. Although more than willing to work, my
grandparents lost employment opportunities based solely on
their religious beliefs and life circumstances. It was only
through their relentless hard work that they overcame the
barriers put before them, ultimately paving the path for me to
appear here before you today.
Yet, generations later, we are once again seeing a rise in
religious discrimination. I'm proud that President Trump issued
executive orders tackling the generational resurgence of
antisemitism and other forms of religious discrimination,
including anti-Christian bias. My grandparents' bravery and
dedication to hard work serves as my family's legacy.
With this background throughout my career in public
service, my philosophy on the government's role in assisting
workers and employers has been steadfast. Education and
outreach to workers and employers go hand in hand with strong
law enforcement. When I served at the Wage and Hour Division
during President Trump's first term, we achieved back-to-back
record-breaking enforcement recoveries for workers, and more
outreach than ever before, all with fewer resources.
My record of balancing law enforcement, providing
compliance assistance, modernizing outdated regulations, and
proactively addressing workplace issues, demonstrates my shared
belief that under President Trump's leadership, we will be
prepared for the opportunities and challenges facing the
workforce over the next 4 years.
As President Trump said throughout his campaign and when he
nominated Secretary Chavez-DeRemer and myself to lead the
Department of Labor, we must put American Workers first and
give everyone a fair shot at the American Dream. The
President's vision embodies my grandparents and countless other
American's legacy.
If I have the privilege of being confirmed as Deputy
Secretary of Labor, I look forward to continuing to make this a
reality for all Americans. Thank you for having me, and I look
forward to our discussion.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Sonderling follows.]
prepared statement of keith sonderling
Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member Sanders, and Members of the
Committee, it is an honor to once again appear before you, this time as
President Trump's nominee to be the Deputy Secretary of Labor. I am
deeply grateful to President Trump for the opportunity to continue to
serve our Nation.
In 2020, I had the honor of being unanimously approved by this
Committee as President Trump's nominee for Commissioner on the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission. I was subsequently confirmed by a
bi-partisan vote of the U.S. Senate. For the last 8 years, I have
worked directly with Members of this Committee, on both sides of the
aisle, on issues that impact hundreds of millions of American workers
and employers.
Over the past few weeks, it has been a pleasure to meet with many
of you again and learn more about your states' workforce challenges and
opportunities. During our meetings, I promised that, if confirmed, I
will continue my longstanding commitment to the Members of this
Committee in continuing to work together to shape the future of the
American workforce through President Trump's America First agenda.
I want to take a brief moment to honor the people who have
supported me throughout my life. My parents, who are here today,
provided a firm foundation on which I am able to build a life of public
service. My wife, Fara, my No. 1 supporter, recognizes my deep
commitment to serve our Country and continues to encourage and support
me. Our two boys, who are napping at home and unlike the rest of my
family, not tuned into C-Span. Also, I want to thank all my current and
former colleagues at DOL and the EEOC for the chance to work with such
dedicated professionals and for your encouragement for my next
opportunity to serve.
On a personal note, I think it is important to share what I
consider to be a fundamental characteristic of who I am as an
individual and as a member of society. I am the grandchild of Holocaust
survivors. My interest in protecting all Americans' rights in the
workplace is undoubtedly shaped by my grandparents, who, despite
suffering unspeakable tragedies, were able to achieve the American
Dream.
My grandmother, as a young teenager, was forcibly taken from her
family by the Nazis. She survived a concentration camp only by fleeing
into the woods during a death march. My grandfather escaped the horrors
of the Warsaw Ghetto and then joined the Allied forces. My grandparents
both lost innumerable family members during the war. Fortunately, my
grandparents were able to immigrate to the United States. They were
overwhelmed with gratitude at the prospect of living and working in
what they considered ``the land of golden opportunities.''
Unfortunately, once settled in the United States, my grandparents
encountered forms of religious discrimination more subtle than those
they faced at the hands of the Nazis. Although more than willing to
work, my grandparents lost employment opportunities based solely on
their religious beliefs and life circumstances. It was only through
their tenacity and relentless hard work that they overcame the barriers
put before them, ultimately paving the path for me to appear here,
before you, today.
Yet, generations later, we are once again seeing a rise in
religious discrimination. I am proud that President Trump issued
executive orders tackling the generational resurgence of antisemitism
and other forms of religious discrimination, including anti-Christian
bias.
With this background, for the past 8 years, both at the Department
of Labor and the EEOC, my philosophy on the government's role in
assisting workers and employers has been steadfast--that education and
outreach to workers and employers go hand in hand with strong law
enforcement. One that goes hand-and-hand with President Trump's vision
of making the American Worker great again.
In President Trump's first term, the Wage and Hour Division, where
I served, achieved back-to-back record-breaking enforcement recoveries
for workers and more outreach than ever before, with fewer resources.
My record of balancing law enforcement, providing compliance
assistance, modernizing outdated regulations, and proactively
addressing workplace issues demonstrates my shared belief that, under
President Trump's leadership, we will be prepared for the opportunities
and challenges facing the workforce over the next 4 years.
As President Trump said throughout his campaign and when he
nominated Secretary Chavez-DeRemer and myself to lead the Department of
Labor, we must put American Workers First and give everyone a fair shot
at the American Dream.
The President's vision for his Administration and the Department of
Labor embodies my grandparents' and countless other Americans' legacy.
If I have the privilege of being confirmed as Deputy Secretary of
Labor, I look forward to continuing to make this a reality for all
Americans.
______
The Chairman. Thank you. I'll begin the questioning. Mr.
Sonderling, during the first Trump administration, DOL
understood that more than 27 million gig workers rely on the
flexibility of independent work to make a living while
balancing personal responsibilities. The Biden administration
sought to strip these workers of this flexibility by
implementing what has failed in California, but a California
style legal framework.
As Deputy Secretary, do you commit to re-implementing the
independent contractor standard used in the first Trump
administration, so workers are free to earn a living in a way
that works best for them?
Mr. Sonderling. First of all, thank you Chairman Cassidy,
for not only having me today at this hearing, but the time we
were able to spend together, not just for this nomination, but
all of our working together the last four or 5 years.
As far as referencing the independent contractor role at
the Department of Labor, that rule is currently under
litigation. So, if confirmed, I will certainly work with the
solicitors and the department to ensure the best path forward
with the current role we have to deal with from the Biden
administration that is in litigation.
However, I do have a very strong record on this, and what
we did in the first Trump administration, I of course, standby
because based on longstanding legal principles. We did not make
up a new standard, we used standards that the Supreme Court had
blessed before, and made it easier for workers to understand
what the rules of the road were determining for them, if they
are going to be an employee or an independent contractor for
the organization they work for as well as employers, that
everyone just wanted clarity.
You have my absolute commitment, not just with this rule,
but every rule we do at the Department of Labor will be clear
and understandable, and all comments from all sides will be
reviewed.
The Chairman. The Biden-Harris administration made a number
of attempts to benefit union constituencies, including by
implementing rules that increase corporate control over small
businesses. You signed the proposed joint employer rule during
your time at Wage and Hour, and the Trump administration
refocusing on who actually directs an employee's work day to
day.
If confirmed, do you intend to re-implement a joint
employer rule focusing on direct control instead of the Biden
administration's broad unworkable standard?
Mr. Sonderling. Well again if I'm lucky enough to be
confirmed, I'm committed to looking at all the rules and
regulations department. The one you referenced now, is not
under litigation, but obviously that is something we're going
to take a look at very closely. And it's the same analysis that
I just discussed with the independent contractor role. It's how
do we actually have factors that are easy to understand for
both workers and employers? It's all about clarity, and it's
also about not legislating from the executive branch and
looking at standards that courts have approved that align with
Congress's intent regarding the employment relationship.
You have my full commitment, that's exactly what I'll do as
Deputy Secretary working on any rules and regulations,
including the joint employer rule. But to the joint employer
rule specifically. And I know that was withdrawn by the Biden
administration. It was based on existing case law. It was based
on four factors that had been established and that were easy to
understand, to benefit both workers and employers.
The Chairman. To put a little flesh on that, I'm just going
to ask you, I think you answered this, but let's just kind of
drill down a little bit. Am I correct in assuming that you
believe that a broad joint employer or standard hurts small
businesses and employees as opposed to a more narrowly focused
rule?
Mr. Sonderling. That's correct. And that's what we
documented during the first Trump administration. It wasn't
ever about taking any rights away from workers. It was about
what does the case law say, and how do these businesses operate
in the model that they intend as business owners and how their
employees also want to be dealt with and treated. And that's
always what we looked at, and that's what we'll continue to do
again.
The Chairman. Sounds great. Next, the Biden-Harris
administration routinely implemented a kind of one size fits
all policy from its efforts to implement a California style ABC
test for independent contractors to a nationwide heat standard
rule, to efforts to punish rural communities by shutting down
volunteer fire departments with top-down emergency response
regulations.
Just as a philosophical thing, how valuable do you think it
is for DOL to consider the effects on different communities
before implementing a one size fits all new policy for the
entire country?
Mr. Sonderling. It's not only what we should be doing, it's
what the law requires us to do under the administrative. Any
rulemaking we do, we need to hear from all constituents and
review them and to make the best possible determination. But
for your specific question, it's very important, of course,
that we balance health and safety measures for workers
ultimately, but also that in the case you're referencing, that
fire departments are able to comply with these rules and not
have to shut down and then not provide emergency services
predominantly in rural areas.
The Chairman. Senator Murray.
Senator Murray. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good to see you,
again.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you for meeting with me.
Senator Murray. In 2024, following an OFCCP evaluation, one
of the largest global financial service companies agreed to
allocate 4.2 million in payments to resolve alleged sex
discrimination and undergo an outside pay equity analysis.
In his first week in office, President Trump rescinded the
executive order from 1965 that authorized OFCCP to conduct that
investigation. Commissioner Sonderling, do you believe that
taxpayer dollars should go to companies that discriminate?
Mr. Sonderling. Senator, first of all, thank you for the
question and for meeting with me. You have been throughout my
time in government, I've enjoyed working with you both in my
prior nomination and this nomination. Regarding the Office of
Federal Contract proceeds, compliance procedures at the
Department of Labor, President Trump did rescind executive
order 11246, which was the jurisdictional basis for that.
However, not a single U.S. worker has lost any civil
protection rights because of that rescission.
Senator Murray. Well, my question wasn't that. I wanted to
ask you; do you think that taxpayer dollars should go to
companies that discriminate?
Mr. Sonderling. Senator, that is not a determination that
the Deputy Secretary of Labor or the Department of Labor----
Senator Murray. You don't want to answer the question?
Mr. Sonderling. There's a jurisdictional issue at the now
at the Department of Labor, where that executive order is no
longer there. But as I committed to you before, the Department
of Labor will still completely and fully enforce the laws.
Senator Murray. I don't think the taxpayer dollars should
go to companies that discriminate. I can easily say that. Let
me go on. In our meeting you suggested that Department of Labor
is looking at eliminating OFCCP entirely, even though it has
recovered now more than $260 million for more than 250,000
employees and job applicants who were discriminated against by
Federal contractors over the last decade. And OFCCP just today,
announced plans to cut 90 percent of its staff and dozens of
local offices.
Let me ask you this, do you think DOL has any role to play
in addressing illegal discrimination?
Mr. Sonderling. First of all, Senator, I'm not aware of
that report, and we did discuss about how we can move forward
with the rescission of the executive order and still enforce
the Vietnam Era Readjustment Assistance Act, and also 503 of
the Rehabilitation Act, which are still laws that the
Department of Labor Civil Rights laws the department to
enforce----
Senator Murray. I'm just asking you from your own
philosophical personal position. Do you think that DOL, which
you want to go to work for, has any role to play in addressing
discrimination in this country? Do you think DOL should or
should not?
Mr. Sonderling. Of course, DOL is the most important agency
in my humble opinion, related to all workplace rights. However,
the specific question is related to discrimination, which now
is the full jurisdiction of the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission under Title VII and all this----
Senator Murray. Well, it's interesting that you say that
because, Trump fired two of the EEOC commissioners in an
unprecedented move I would add, so it really has undermined our
government's ability to go after an anti-discrimination. So I
am, and everyone should be deeply concerned about that.
Let me go on, because I just have a minute left. And this
is important. We are hearing a lot about DEI; it's thrown out
there everywhere. So, I'm going to ask about some bipartisan
laws passed by Congress, that were passed to make sure that
underserved Americans can receive workforce training and find
good employment opportunities.
I want to know if the policies in these laws that I'm going
to present to you amount to DEI, the Office of Disability
Employment Policy has been statutorily authorized with, I'm
going to quote, ``eliminating barriers to the training and
employment of people with disabilities''. Is that DEI yes, or
no?
Mr. Sonderling. Is important to protect all rights of
disabled workers, and under my leadership, the Office of
Disability Employment will continue to do that.
Senator Murray. That is not DEI?
Mr. Sonderling. That is a civil rights statute that the
department enforces to make sure disabled people can prosper
into the workforce.
Senator Murray. But I'm asking if it's DEI because it's
very confusing. How about the Workforce Innovation and
Opportunity Act, WIOA? It specifically says, ``Individuals with
a barrier to employment and requires grantees to expand
training to those individuals.'' Is that DEI?
Mr. Sonderling. WIOA is a very important law as everyone in
this room has worked----
Senator Murray. Well, do you consider that to be DEI?
Mr. Sonderling. I consider that to be a very important part
of the department's mission to make sure that American workers
can get the training they need.
Senator Murray. You would say that's not DEI? Is the
Vietnam Era Veterans Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974,
requires Federal contractors to take affirmative action to
hire, retain, and promote veterans. Is that DEI?
Mr. Sonderling. It is important to protect all of our
veterans. It's important to protect everybody in the workplace.
Senator Murray. Well, Mr. Chairman, I know you're pounding
your gavel, but I just think it's pretty clear that there is no
standard definition of DEI across our Federal Government. We
should be very careful what we are saying and putting out there
in the public.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Marshall.
Senator Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sonderling,
welcome. It's good to see you again. We've had some great
discussions about workforce development.
Look, we want everyone to have a job. And in Kansas, the
biggest challenge we have is water, we're not going to fix that
today and a lack of people for the jobs that we have. That
there are lots of jobs that are going unfulfilled, jobs that
would pay a great salary, a starting salary, $80,000 a year,
but they're not inside of an office. It's using your hands, and
it's working outside in the Kansas weather as well. But what
could you do at the Department of Labor to help empower the
workforce to have the skillset for the jobs that we have
available in the State of Kansas?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, I really enjoyed our meeting very
much, Senator, and to talk about the issues within Kansas, not
just on the workforce development side but the various issues
related to your workforce. And I really look forward to
continuing moving on that.
As far as our discussion about workforce, I really enjoyed
how we talked about there's always going to be those vocational
traits, whether it's through apprentices or otherwise, and we
need to keep encouraging individuals to go in that, who may not
want that traditional 4-year degree. And that is exciting for
those programs to be expanded and continue.
But as we talked about, how do we now make other types of
apprenticeships cool? There's a lot of people who don't want to
go to traditional 4-year degrees. You think about everything
related to technology. You have 12-, 13-, 14-year-olds who can
code and do AI better than some of the top scientists at
Google. And they may not want to go to a 4-year program because
they're able to enter into the tech workforce right now. So how
do we expand apprenticeships or other opportunities?
Senator Marshall. Well, how do we do that? How do we do it?
Mr. Sonderling. Through the Department of Labor. We're
going to promote that and try to--in addition to the
traditional vocational sides, we're going to try to get other
companies to get involved in more tech type companies to get
involved in this equation. So, and also work on the individual.
Senator Marshall. Often in DC, we work in these silos, and
I think there's this opportunity that we need to work with the
Department of Education. Right now, our Pell Grants are really
geared up for the 4-year university graduate with a high volume
of debt load and a job. That's a fraction of what you could, if
you were willing to go work with your hands as well. So, what
would you be advising or how could you work with the Department
of Education?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, we will work closely with our
colleagues at the Department of Education to ensure that all
this the Federal money, whether it's on the Pell Grants, on the
WIOA, are actually going to those students who want to engage
and learn different trades, learn different areas that they
traditionally have not thought of using the government funds or
that type of workforce training. And I think that's a
messaging, and I think that's something we can all work on
together on how we do that.
Senator Marshall. I think it's prioritizing the dollars. We
have a finite amount of dollars. We have to prioritize those as
well. The unions are doing just a great job with their
apprenticeships, with the shorter 8-to 12-week courses as well.
What can we do to amplify those--I understand there's an
education part of it, but what can we do in the Federal
Government level to make sure that any moneys we are given out
are being able to be used for those?
Mr. Sonderling. This is an important part of the Department
of Labors employing training administration, to make sure all
those Federal dollars are actually going into workforce
training developments that's going to achieve results. And I
think if confirmed as Deputy Secretary of Labor, I will work
with that division and work with all the Senators in this room
to make sure that those dollars going to your states are
actually producing those results, both in what you think
traditionally of the apprenticeship programs and also re-
imagining different paths.
Senator Marshall. Yes. To me, again, I'm going back to
this; prioritize. We're spending plenty of money, I just didn't
know if it's going in the right places as well. What my last
question looks like. How could you at the Department of Labor
use resources more efficiently, ensure that these funds will be
properly spent and accounted for?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, you have my commitment, our team will
look at all Federal dollars being spent from the workforce and
make sure that they're getting results. These are still
taxpayer funds, and we need to not only make sure that they're
being used properly, but the education these students who are
receiving these Federal funds are actually leading to very good
jobs. And I think that's going to be the first indication of
that. And that's what President Trump's agenda is.
Senator Marshall. My last piece of advice is that we need
to measure that success. And I hope when we get to visit here
in 3 months, hope you're confirmed, is how do we measure
success? And to me, it's some type of a very simple formula. We
spent this much money on these different programs, and then did
this person get a job when they finished? What was their debt
when they started the job? What was their starting salary?
Maybe a point toward the future, what's a 10-year salary?
But we have to start measuring success, and then we see how
we're spending dollars on a certain program, and there's no
return on that investment, then we need to eliminate those.
Mr. Sonderling. I look forward to working with your office
on that if confirmed.
Senator Marshall. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I yield
back.
The Chairman. Senator Kaine.
Senator Kaine. Mr. Sonderling, congratulations on your
nomination, and welcome to your family.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Kaine. You are a senior advisor to the Acting
Secretary. How many Departments of Labor employees have lost
their jobs since the beginning of the Trump administration?
Mr. Sonderling. I am a senior advisor right now at the U.S.
Department of Labor. I don't have the authority over hiring and
firing decisions.
Senator Kaine. Do you not know the answer to this?
Mr. Sonderling. I do not know the answer.
Senator Kaine. Who would know the answer to the question?
Mr. Sonderling. The acting secretary works with the career
staff, both in the solicitor's office----
Senator Kaine. Do you think the Acting Secretary would
know?
Mr. Sonderling. The Assistant Secretary of Management, the
professionals in the H.R. team at the U.S. Department of Labor?
Senator Kaine. Is the answer to my question one that you're
interested in or disinterested in?
Mr. Sonderling. If confirmed as Deputy Secretary of Labor
Senator, that is going to be----
Senator Kaine. You work there now, you're there right now.
Mr. Sonderling. I am a senior advisor; I don't have the
authority over HR. But I will eventually.
Senator Kaine. In your testimony, you say, my interest in
protecting all Americans rights in the workplace, you're
including Federal employees, including the employees of your
own agency, isn't that correct?
Mr. Sonderling. I'm including every worker in the United
States.
Senator Kaine. Good. I guess I know the answer to this next
question, which is, do you know how many veterans have been
fired at the Department of Labor since you began working there
on Inauguration Day?
Mr. Sonderling. I do not.
Senator Kaine. Are you interested in that question or
disinterested in that question?
Mr. Sonderling. Of course, I'm interested in all the
employees.
Senator Kaine. You're aware because you've worked with the
Federal Government before that pretty high percentage of the
Federal workforces are veterans, about 30 percent of the
civilian workforce is veterans.
Mr. Sonderling. It's a tremendous honor for the Federal
Government.
Senator Kaine. Highly disproportionate number of disabled
veterans. Probationary employees have been laid off in the
Department of Labor as well as other agencies. Correct?
Mr. Sonderling. That's pursuant to OPM guidance and
executive order----
Senator Kaine. Just correct or incorrect.
Mr. Sonderling. I read that as well.
Senator Kaine. Probationary employees. Just so folks know,
they're not on probation because they did something wrong. What
that means is they're new employees, and they tend to either be
young employees or career switchers, like veterans.
Veterans serve in the military. I have a veteran who served
for 25 years in the Marine Corps, lives in Dumfries, Virginia.
Mr. Musel is his name, service-disabled vet, 5 years. Deployed
in Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times. He left the military as
a colonel in 2019 and got a job with a Federal agency for 4
years, and then he got recruited to join another Federal agency
in March of last year. And he served, and now he's 30 years of
service to the country, but he's a probationary employee and he
just got fired.
The numbers are coming in. People like you generally can't
answer questions like this in hearings, but the numbers coming
in suggest that Donald Trump has fired more veterans than any
President in the history of the United States in 6 weeks. Is
that a good thing or a bad thing, or are you indifferent to it?
Mr. Sonderling. If confirmed, I can promise you that I will
follow all applicable law or make sure the H.R. department----
Senator Kaine. But that's not all applicable laws. The ``if
confirmed'' line works for somebody who isn't in the building.
People have been using that line if they're not in the
building. I can't expect them to have answers to questions. You
are a special advisor to the acting Secretary of Labor, and
I've asked you a question. Is mass firing of veterans who are
Federal employees a good thing, a bad thing, or are you
indifferent to it?
Mr. Sonderling. First of all I truly respect all veterans
in the service of their country. I've hired veterans, veterans
who've worked for me. I understand the sacrifice they've made.
Personally----
Senator Kaine. Do you dispute what I am saying that
veterans are disproportionately suffering by the Trump layoff
policies?
Mr. Sonderling. Senator, I haven't done the workforce
analysis.
Senator Kaine. You can't dispute it, but you recognize what
I've said. That 30 percent of the workforce is veterans, and
veterans are disproportionately in probationary status because
they've come from one Federal agency to become a civilian with
the Federal Government.
Mr. Sonderling. I can assure you that the professional
career staff at HR, the Department of Labor, and the
Solicitor's Office, who are complying with all executive orders
and OPM directives are absolute professionals, and will follow
the law, and have a duty to make sure that nobody is
discriminated against.
Senator Kaine. When you are aware that the workplace is
disproportionately veteran, and you engage in mass layoffs,
you're disproportionately affecting veterans. The civilian
workforce is less than 5 percent veteran. The Federal workforce
is 30 percent veteran. You have said that you have an interest
in protecting all Americans' rights in the workplace, but you
can't even answer a question that I'm asking you about your own
workforce.
Now, I know you've only been there for 6 weeks, but you are
in a highly elevated position. You can't tell me how many folks
have been fired, you can't tell me how many are veterans,
you're not exactly sure who could give you the answer. You
haven't apparently been interested enough to get the
information to be able to answer my questions. I just want to
hold you to your standard. If you want to protect all Americans
rights in the workplace, that better include veterans. I yield
back.
The Chairman. Senator Husted.
Senator Husted. Thank you, Chairman Cassidy. Mr.
Sonderling, welcome, and congratulations on your nomination. On
the first Friday of each month, at 8.30 in the morning, the
Bureau of Labor Statistics announces a jobs report. In my
previous work as lieutenant Governor of Ohio, I was in charge
of economic development and workforce development, we used to
watch that report very closely in instructing our work.
We would certainly though not watch it as closely as the
Federal Reserve, who makes interest rate decisions based on
that, and certainly not as closely as the stock market and the
people who invest in this Nation, because those statistics are
really important for a lot of people in making decisions about
where the direction of the economy is going.
On that basis of how important that is, I was shocked in
August 2024 to find out that the BLS over reported the number
of jobs between March 2023 and March 2024 during the Biden
administration by 818,000 jobs, 30 percent overestimate about
the number of jobs that were created during that time period.
That's stunning to think that could have happened by that large
of a margin.
I'm interested in knowing, because this is a time when we
have access to all kinds of data. We have more data and more
ways to collect information than ever. I'm interested in,
clearly this is a flawed system, is it subjected to
manipulation? Is it incompetence or is it just an outdated way
of trying to make these measurements? And so, my question is,
what can we do to improve that, do you have thoughts?
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator, and for raising that
issue. You and I have discussed this at length, and I think the
first and foremost related to public trust in transparency in
any of these positions is paramount to anything. And if the
public cannot trust the Federal agencies to be doing the jobs
that they're supposed to be doing, it's going to be very
difficult for these agencies to continue their mission.
That's what I'm very excited about President Trump's
leadership and this Administration, that's why he was voted
into office to be able to bring back that public trust and
transparency in these organizations. To your specific question,
the Bureau of Labor Statistics that does the jobs reports where
you reference on the job correction, which obviously made
national news is an agency that's independent of the Department
of Labor.
What I can promise you is that if confirmed, we will work
with our partners at the bureau of Labor Statistics, to ensure
that they have all the resources they need to be able to
accurately and timely put out the job numbers without
questions.
Senator Husted. That's great, because I think this is an
incredibly important issue in terms of how decisions get made
in this country. It is a matter of public trust and I would ask
you to report back to us on what you learn as you take a look
at this and how we can get better.
Senator Marshall talked to you a little bit about
apprentices and how we can get better. Have you given any
thought to the idea that a lot of jobs today we are saying you
need a college degree for, but really you could just apprentice
that job and credential that job, and it might not need a
college degree to be able to, go to teach in high school for
auto body repair or some of these many career tech kind of jobs
that the workplace experience that you had out in the
marketplace may be a better way for you to do this. And is
there any way that we could improve upon that, do you believe?
Mr. Sonderling. Absolutely. And this was part of President
Trump's campaign to improve the life of American worker for
them to have choices. And it shouldn't be workers, students
should have options if they want to go to a 4-year college and
pursue that. They should be able to, if they want to go into
trades or vocational or any of these different apprenticeship
programs, we should encourage and do both.
I think that the Department of Labor plays the strongest
role ensuring for those who do not want to go to the
traditional 4-year colleges to get into the many options we
have on various workforce development training programs,
whether it's apprenticeships or other kinds of participating
bodies we have at the department in ETA related to ways to
develop a workforce.
Senator Husted. Great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Hassan.
Senator Hassan. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman,
and good morning, Mr. Sonderling. Congratulations to you and
your family on your nomination.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Hassan. Just a couple of things. First of all, as I
understand it, last week at your staff interview, you were
asked some of the very questions about numbers of layoffs at
the Department of Labor that Senator Kaine just asked you. And
so, if you were, in fact, interested, given that you are in
fact a senior advisor at the department, we would've expected
you to have gone back and been prepared for those questions and
had answers.
It is concerning, and it raises a little bit of skepticism
on my mind about how interested you are really about who's
being laid off at the Department of Labor and what kind of
``process'' a term I'm using loosely, because it doesn't seem
there is any process with this Administration about how they're
going about these layoffs was used.
But let me start with a question I've been asking all
nominees. And it's a really simple question, and it is related
to recent events. If directed by the President of the United
States to take an action that would break the law, would you
follow the law or follow the President's directive?
Mr. Sonderling. President Trump would never ask me to do
that.
Senator Hassan. President Trump, let's just be really
clear, is a convicted felon. He has violated the Impoundment
Control Act that has been ruled constitutional by the U.S.
Supreme Court. He has pardoned violent offenders, some of whom
have now been rearrested for new acts of violence, including
rape, and he has just aligned the United States of America and
a vote at the United Nations with two of the most brutal
dictators in modern history, Russia, and North Korea. So, the
notion that he wouldn't direct you to do something that breaks
the law stretches----
Now, second question. I am really concerned about attempts
by members of Elon Musk's DOGE effort to access sensitive data
in DOL systems without proper oversight. And I have a series of
questions to ask you on this topic.
First, the Department of Labor Systems include the medical
information of people who file workers' compensation claims, as
well as the identities and personal information of people who
file other employment and whistleblower complaints against
corporations. If confirmed, how will you protect sensitive
personal information at DOL?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, first of all, Senator, the U.S.
Department of Labor is subject to a lawsuit by multiple unions
regarding DOGE's access to the department.
Senator Hassan. How are you going to go ahead, independent
of that, what steps will you take to protect sensitive personal
information at DOL?
Mr. Sonderling. I just have to let you know that the
Department of Justice is representing DOL in all DOGE matters
and all questions related to DOGE are being dealt with in the
court.
Senator Hassan. It is really disappointing to me how eager
you are to evade giving direct answers here. I'm also concerned
that Elon Musk and any other member of DOGE could advance their
own private business interests by exploiting sensitive
information or undermining investigations at DOL. These
conflicts of interest are real.
If confirmed, how would you address these significant
conflicts of interest? Conflicts that exist because DOGE has
members who have had unfettered access to data that they can
use for their personal and financial benefit?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, broadly, in this Administration, the
President's committed that there are no conflicts of interest
in relating to the Department of Labor. I'm very confident in
the career solicitors and the career ethics officers who will
ensure that there are no conflicts within the department.
Senator Hassan. Mr. Musk has extraordinary conflicts of
interest. This is a guy who's gotten $38 billion in subsidies
from the Federal Government. This is a guy who has ongoing
investigations by the Department of Labor because of complaints
from his employees. This is a guy who we don't know how he
plans to use the data, and whether he's planning to export it
all to his own platforms to build his financial business.
You are a skilled lawyer the answers to these questions,
and your unwillingness to either stand up to the President,
acknowledge that this is a President who isn't interested in
following the law, and refusal to tell me that you will stand
up for the people who work for the Department of Labor, whose
data is kept by the Department of Labor, for the workers who
are supposed to count on the Department of Labor to have their
back is really, really disappointing.
My last question for you is about child labor violations
and what you will do to protect child labor. But seeing that
I'm out of time, I'm going to yield back, and will submit that
question for the record.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Banks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sonderling, I
want to ask you the same question I asked Ms. Chavez-DeRemer,
what does it mean to put American workers first in the 21st
century economy?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, thank you, Senator Banks. I really
enjoyed our conversation and working with your team. And this
is what President Trump was elected for. And this is why I'm
excited to join this Administration. It's about putting the
American worker first, period. And the duty of all his entire
Administration, and also the Department of Labor, is to make
sure that the American worker is protected in all the various
areas.
Now, why I'm personally biased and excited about the
Department of Labor is because it meets all the different areas
that President Trump campaigned on for the workforce, whether
it's protecting worker salaries, whether its protecting
retirees benefits and pension plans, whether it's helping
America be healthy again through ensuring transparency in
healthcare plans.
It's just the entire scope of the Department of Labor from
A to Z will really help move forward the President's agenda,
what he wants with the workforce, which I know I'm sounding
repetitive because that's about putting the American worker
first and nobody else.
Senator Banks. Very good. Our artificial intelligence holds
a lot of promise, increased productivity, innovation in the
economy, but it also threatens to wipe out a lot of jobs. How
do we balance those two concerns that we have? One, with
growing our economy and the other with the jobs that could be
lost through AI and other innovation.
Mr. Sonderling. We have to look at this in various ways.
The first and foremost position is that any use of artificial
intelligence in the workforce, and something, obviously, I'm
very passionate about, complies with longstanding laws or it's
civil rights laws, whether it's health and safety laws, to
ensure that it's being used properly on the American workforce
to actually help make them more productive, help make their
jobs better, safer, more secure. And there's a lot of promise
with AI on that.
But on the flip side, if we don't have those American
values built into it, if we don't have those civil rights
protections built into artificial intelligence, not only are
people potentially going to be discriminate, but the products
are not going to be able to do what they are intended to do.
That's always been a passion of mine, but now in this role
as the Department of Labor, it's much broader than that. Now,
how do we make sure, No. 1, that the American workers are
actually the ones being able to be trained on this, to be able
to use it. How do we develop those programs in place, the
Department of Labor, to train the next generation of workers to
be confident about using AI, to not feel like it's going to
make them lose their jobs, but it's going to make their jobs
better.
I think that's a very important part of this
Administration. And then of course we have to make sure that
the products continue to be developed here and not overseas.
And how do we do that, again, through that proper workforce
training that we've been discussing.
Senator Banks. It's illegal to hire illegal immigrants. But
companies that hire illegal immigrants often commit other
crimes, wage theft, or breaking child labor laws, for example.
I assume you agree that putting American workers first means
that we hold companies accountable that break the law and hire
illegal immigrants.
My first question on that note is why did the Biden
administration refuse to allow ICE to go into businesses to
correct down on big businesses who hired illegals?
Mr. Sonderling. Senator, I don't know what was going on
during the Biden administration at ICE or the Department of
Labor, but I can assure you in the Trump administration that
you can enforce all laws, and you don't have to not enforce
certain laws at the detriment to other laws. Whether it's
immigration laws, whether it's employment laws, they can all be
enforced together.
If confirmed as Deputy Secretary of Labor, you will have my
full commitment that all of the laws that the Department of
Labor enforces will be enforced, and all other agencies will
also be able to enforce their laws equally as well.
Senator Banks. I understand that Department of Labor shares
some of these responsibilities with ICE, who is the enforcement
arm. But correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true that the Biden
Department of Labor blocked ICE from entering workplaces to
enforce labor laws?
Mr. Sonderling. If confirmed, I can certainly work with you
on those issues to see what was going on.
Senator Banks. But can you commit to us today that along
with secretary to be, Chavez-DeRemer, that you will not block
Federal law enforcement agencies from going into the workplace
to enforce those laws, to put American Workers first?
Mr. Sonderling. We will work with all of our Federal
partners to make sure that all laws of the United States, and
there's 180 of them at the Department of Labor, are fully
enforced.
Senator Banks. Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's crazy to me that the
last Administration would block law enforcement from going into
workplaces to enforce these important laws. So that's the most
important commitment that I've heard today. I appreciate you
being here. You have my full support. I yield back.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Blunt-Rochester.
Senator Blunt Rochester. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank
you, Mr. Sonderling, for the meeting that we had. I will tell
you, I started my work here today with a list of questions. But
as I've heard other Senators ask questions, I've gotten more
and more concerned. I'm concerned when Senator Murray asked you
if companies that discriminate should receive taxpayer dollars,
you did not give a clear answer.
I'm concerned that when the question of supporting people
with disabilities and protecting them with their rights came
up, and the question of, well how does that relate to DEI and
how does that relate to civil rights protections, you were not
clear. I'm concerned that when we met, I asked you specifically
about the employees at the department and how many of them were
let go, or what should be the responsibility of this department
for those workers, and numerous Senators asked the same
question, and it still wasn't clear.
I, literally, while I was sitting here, did a Google search
and found on Bloomberg Law, information about how many
employees from the Department of Labor were let go. And so, I
understand the saying that we or you, and this Administration
support American workers, but to the people who are dealing
with avian flu, to the veterans who make up almost a third of
the workforce, and half of those are disabled veterans, to the
individuals who were nuclear scientists that protected our
safety, to all of these workers, I don't think they feel very
much seen or protected and that has impact on all of us, all of
our safety, all of our health.
I only really have one question. My question is, are these
employees also the American workforce that you would put first?
Mr. Sonderling. Of course.
Senator Blunt Rochester. I don't feel it, they don't feel
it. We're not seeing it. And we're all starting to feel the
impacts of this arbitrary in some ways, using a chainsaw to get
rid of employees that really do make a difference in our lives.
I shared with you; I was the former Secretary of Labor from
the State of Delaware. What we are seeing is not workforce
planning. What we are seeing is not smart when we have a
national workforce shortage, and we are just firing people that
we need. So that was my only question. Again, very
disappointed, and again I would love not to see this same
pattern of nominees coming in and saying, I'm sorry, I'm not in
there yet, I can't answer that question, especially when you
actually are in the department. I yield back.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Mr.
Chairman, I was not here when we took the vote before the
Committee to confirm or to advance Lori Chavez-DeRemer to be
the Secretary of Labor. I intended to support her nomination
moving out of Committee. If it's appropriate, I would ask
unanimous consent to be recorded as yes, by proxy.
The Chairman. Without objection.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sonderling,
thank you for the opportunity for discussion last week. As I
shared with you, probably at greater length than you wanted.
Mr. Sonderling. I enjoyed it very much.
Senator Murkowski. Well, you learned a lot about fish and
that's Okay.
Mr. Sonderling. Yes. Slime. We're going to do it together.
Senator Murkowski. Yes, we're going to take you out there,
you're going to see for yourself. But I shared with you the
disappointment that I've had over the years, that the
department can be an obstacle to us in obtaining H-2B workers
by not processing timely these labor certifications. I shared
that I think that the system is broken.
We need these workers. We would love to do nothing more
than to have a hundred percent American workers. But our
reality is despite every effort that we have made, we have been
not successful with that. And if we don't have the workers, the
fish can't be processed and we have an industry that falls to
its knees. So, I really appreciate your commitment to working
with me to help meet Alaska's seafood workforce needs. So, I
look forward to it.
Mr. Sonderling. You have my full commitment. We had a long,
very technical discussion about the H-2B program, but I really
think that's a very good example of why there's a need for that
program. And as you know, the Department of Labor's
jurisdiction related to this, it's not only to test the labor
market, whether it be salaries or actually workforce, but this
is an example where there, is no local workforce. And we need
this program to be able to succeed in both Alaska, Maryland,
Virginia, closer by, with the seasons and the technicalities of
this.
I am fully committed to working on that with you together
to make sure that the seafood seasons, which don't align
necessarily with other temporary working seasons, that we are
able to process those too. You have my full commitment on that.
Senator Murkowski. Good. I look forward to working on that.
Let me shift to our veterans. The Veterans Employment and
Training Services overseas program designed to help our vets
transitioning service members and our military spouses. This as
important as they're seeking to gain meaningful employment. An
assistant secretary for this program for vets hasn't been
nominated yet.
Can you commit to prioritizing appointing a veteran who has
firsthand experience with the challenges of transitioning to
civilian development? Can you give me that kind of an
assurance? I think it's important.
Mr. Sonderling. Absolutely. Let me say a few things on
this. It is very important in my opinion, that a veteran lead
that department and one that understands the complexities of
leaving service and coming into the private sector workforce,
somebody could actually help them with the military codes,
change it to their resume and see that the types of jobs that
are best to their skills.
That's a huge part of the vet's remit to ensure that not
only there's funding and training for that, but you actually
can do that. I think you have my full commitment, and I'm going
to speak on behalf of hopefully soon to be Labor Secretary,
that we will ensure that role gets filled.
Senator Murkowski. Great, thank you. I appreciate that. It
is key, it's significant. And that kind of experience, you just
can't replicate without having had that veteran background. I
was here when Senator Hassan was talking about the sensitivity
of information at Department of Labor, and know that this
Senator shares the concern about the confidentiality of that.
We can talk pros and cons about how DOGE is moving through,
but as I'm talking to Alaskans, one of the concerns that I'm
hearing is we don't know why there are those who are gaining
access. It may be fine, it may be not, but I'm nervous about
it. I think that we can alleviate anxiety and nervousness by
just saying your sensitive data is going to remain
confidential. So, I just wanted to put that out there on the
record for that.
I want to talk to you about apprenticeships and we've
shared the concerns that we have in rural areas. It's just
hard. You've got folks who want to be part of the skilled
workforce, but I think we need to find some more creative ways
to support workforce development in rural areas. Not just
Alaska, other parts of the country where communities aren't
kind of disconnected from the traditional workforce.
I don't know if you have any specifics that you can give me
in 20 seconds, or just a commitment, but we need to focus on
this rural workforce.
Mr. Sonderling. You have my full commitment, and as we
discussed through my last time at Wage and Hour, I studied the
Alaska workforce, both from a DOL perspective and the needs
that the Department of Labor needs to give there. And you have
my full commitment that we will work together again in this
Administration to make sure that all aspects of the Department
of Labor Programs are available in Alaska.
Senator Murkowski. Good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Alsobrooks.
Senator Alsobrooks. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. And good
morning to you, Mr. Sonderling, and thank you for being here.
Now, you've talked a lot in various points today included about
your deep respect for civil servants and for those who are
career service at the Department of Labor and the important
work that they do there every single day. Yet unfortunately,
this Administration continues to attack these workers.
The Department of Labor civil servants received the same e-
mail, as others across government over the weekend, telling
them to submit five bullet points describing the work that they
had done over the last week, with Elon Musk saying to them that
a failure to respond would be considered a resignation.
Now, this directive, and I believe this was the point of
it, caused chaos, confusion, and fear for department employees.
And the Department of Labor staff apparently received because
of the sheer incompetence of this Administration, mixed
messages from their supervisors on how to respond. Now, some
managers told staff that the choice to respond was at their
discretion. And so, I would like to know who was involved in
making decisions at the department regarding the guidance that
was given to department employees.
Mr. Sonderling. Well, thank you, Senator, for that
question. The directives that come from OPM, whether it's the
guidance related to responding to e-mails or not, goes to the
Office of Assistant Secretary for Management at Department of
Labor, which is the H.R. department at DOL. So, any kind of
response or not response, how to deal with it, I would have to
defer to the professional staff at the H.R. department in DOL.
Senator Alsobrooks. Were you involved in that decision-
making?
Mr. Sonderling. I was not, and I did receive that e-mail
myself.
Senator Alsobrooks. Well, you are a senior leader in the
Administration on the landing team, is that correct?
Mr. Sonderling. I've been in the Administration since the
first day as an advisor, correct.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. And so how is it possible that
you weren't involved in such a high-level decision as a person
who's a senior part of the transition team? You've been there
in the building, you have been a part of the landing team, how
is it possible that you weren't involved?
Mr. Sonderling. It is a large agency, and there's
professional career staff that handle various aspects of the
department. The specific questions you're asking about go to
the professional staff in the human resources divisions, which
I don't manage and I don't have authority over. And I trust
them fully.
Senator Alsobrooks. But you were aware of these
discussions?
Mr. Sonderling. I was not involved in these discussions.
Senator Alsobrooks. But you were aware of the discussions
and aware of the decision that was made to send this out?
Mr. Sonderling. No. From OPM?
Senator Alsobrooks. From Elon Musk.
Mr. Sonderling. I was not involved in any of that. I
received the e-mail and same time everyone did on Saturday
after I read about it on Twitter.
Senator Alsobrooks. Which I think, again, points to the
sheer incompetence. To even send the e-mail to you, says
something horrible about the people in the building. But given
the issues with conflicting guidance, which we now acknowledge,
you acknowledge that there were issues with this conflicting
guidance, since you yourself received one of the ridiculous e-
mails, I'd like to know, can you commit that no one will lose
their job due to the perceived non-compliance with Elon Musk's
order?
Mr. Sonderling. If confirmed, and I have oversight of the
H.R. department. I will commit to you that our H.R.
professional career staff will follow all directives and all
laws.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. That doesn't necessarily answer
the question because there are people who were on maternity
leave who received these messages and others. Will you commit
to protect those individuals who had no opportunity to apply or
respond?
Mr. Sonderling. I will make sure that the professional
career staff in the H.R. department follows all regulations and
all laws, and I trust them to do that.
Senator Alsobrooks. Well, do those laws include collective
bargaining agreements?
Mr. Sonderling. The department, obviously, has collective
bargaining agreements with various Federal Government unions.
There are divisions within the Department of Labor in that same
H.R. group that handles all of those. They are the
professionals in managing collective bargaining agreements and
the unions, and I trust them fully to do their jobs.
Senator Alsobrooks. Well, the reason I ask is because Ms.
Chavez-DeRemer, who's here I know today, was unable to
affirmatively commit to abiding to all terms and conditions of
collective bargaining agreements between the Department of
Agency staff saying instead, I will work with the experts to
understand the collective bargaining process at the department.
So, can you commit to abide by all terms and conditions of the
department's collective bargaining agreement? And do you
understand the collective bargaining process?
Mr. Sonderling. I am not a traditional labor lawyer. But I
know we have a lot of experts at the Department of Labor career
staff in the solicitor's office that are experts in dealing
with Federal Government unions and collective bargaining and I
trust them.
Senator Alsobrooks. You're a labor and employment attorney,
and you were a leader at the department for years. Correct?
Mr. Sonderling. That's correct.
Senator Alsobrooks. You don't know about collective
bargaining agreements?
Mr. Sonderling. I know about them, but I would trust the
experts who have done this in their entire career to help guide
us.
Senator Alsobrooks. Thank you.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Hawley.
Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sonderling,
nice to see you again. I enjoyed our conversation the other
day. I've been talking about a pro worker framework for policy
and legislation that I hope to advance in this Congress doing
common sense things like delivering transparency in the
workforce, holding abusive employers accountable, making union
elections fair and timely, getting fair and timely initial
contracts when employees vote for union and boosting penalties
for unfair treatment.
You and I have talked about this. You kindly offered in my
office to work with me, and provide technical feedback on the
legislation and other forms of support. Are you willing to
reaffirm that today and to help us as we try to advance in this
Congress legislation that will protect workers along the lines
that President Trump has talked about and also strengthen our
economy?
Mr. Sonderling. Senator, I enjoyed our conversation. I
enjoy not only your passion for the workforce, but also
President Trump's vision on bringing everyone together in his
Administration. And as we discussed for you or any other
Senator, you have the full resources of the Department of Labor
for any technical assistance on any part of the bills that this
Congress decides that they would like to move forward or any of
the Senators want to sponsor.
We will be there to assist, you providing technical
guidance through both our political and career staff to make
sure that you all can pass legislation.
Senator Hawley. Very good. Thank you for that. Let me ask
you a little bit about artificial intelligence, which is
something else that you and I discussed, and I enjoyed our
conversation. You talked about your tenure at the EEOC and your
role that you played, helping to determine the appropriate uses
for AI in hiring. What role do you think AI should play when it
comes to Federal hiring?
Mr. Sonderling. I think that we have to look at this,
whether it's the Federal Government or the private sector, the
same way. The tools that are being developed out of Silicon
Valley are being used in the hiring process, not just here in
the U.S. but across the world. And I think the U.S. needs to
obviously lead in that innovation, and we need to keep that
innovation here, but how do we do that?
That's what we discussed, making sure that all these tools
are designed in accordance with our longstanding loss, no
matter what the use is. We talked about employment, but there's
obviously a lot of different kinds of uses of artificial
intelligence. And we are not going to be able to succeed as a
global leader in AI without making sure that the products are
developed, designed, and deployed in accordance with the laws
that Congress have passed. Not new laws yet, not new government
bodies but with what we have in the executive branch.
There's a lot of old laws that we can apply to this.
They're not outdated. That's our job to apply.
Senator Hawley. Let me just zoom out on this a little bit
and ask you more broadly. Many American workers are very
concerned about losing their jobs to AI, concerns that I think
are very well-founded. What is your message to American workers
who feel at risk from this so-called AI revolution and think,
gee, pretty soon, I'm not going to have a job at all?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, this is a very, very important
conversation and another conversation on how we win making sure
that all workplace workers who are going to be either using
these tools, subject to these tools are not fearful that
they're going to be replaced by them.
That's really working with the entire AI community, whether
it's the venture capitalists, the vendors, to ensure that these
products are developed, designed, and deployed with that in
mind, that this is going to essentially make your job easier,
better, and you could be more enjoyable and thrive more in the
workplace and not having that fear of displacement.
If these tools are used to displace workers, that's a whole
different conversation that we need to have before that occurs,
to make sure that all protections in the workforce are built
into these systems. Because if they're not, then that's a part
we could use law enforcement if jobs are improperly being
displaced by our artificial intelligence the same way we would
do if it was by humans.
Senator Hawley. Yes. I'm glad to hear that answer. And I
just want to register concern here that I've registered in
other context, which is we hear a lot about the AI revolution
and how wonderful it's going to be for workers. And I hope
that's true, and I think it should be the business of this
Congress to make sure it is true.
Because what I am not willing to see are large amounts of
jobs, really any number of good paying jobs, ruined, destroyed,
taken by AI. We have too few good paying blue-collar jobs in
this country. I don't want an AI revolution that takes away
even more of those jobs.
I remember when the CEO of Microsoft not so long ago, was
sitting where you're sitting and testifying before a different
committee of which I was a member, and he said, oh, we should
love AI. It's wonderful. Soon we will automate and take away
all kinds of non-creative jobs that we really don't need in
this country anymore. Like everyone who might work at a service
restaurant, for example, we just won't need any of those
people.
I said to him that's not a utopia. That sounds to me like a
dystopia. That sounds to me like you're eliminating hundreds of
thousands, millions of jobs, that are often the way that
workers get their foot in the door, they get into the labor
force. So, I'm glad to hear your answers. I'm glad for your
work, and we've got to make sure that our workers are
benefiting from this technology not being ravaged and preyed
upon by this technology.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Kim.
Senator Kim. Thank you, Chair. I actually just want to pick
up exactly where they left off. I was just trying to get a
little bit more clarity on your position regarding AI. I saw a
quote that you had given previously where you said, ``less
enforcement we have'', and you were talking about Federal
regulation, ``less enforcement we have on AI is a good thing
because employees aren't having their rights violated and
employers aren't violating these laws''.
I guess I just wanted to ask you more specifically, what
role do you think the Federal Government can and should play
when it comes to AI regulation as we're worried in a bipartisan
way about job loss and replacement, not augmentation of work,
but replacement.
Mr. Sonderling. I'm not sure I said it exactly like that,
but what I meant to say, if AI can actually be designed in
accordance with, not only our Nation's laws and our Nation's
values, we can hopefully, with a lot of qualifiers, get to a
place where AI discriminates less than humans in the employment
application process throughout the employee life cycle.
As a former Commissioner at the EEOC, we see that bias and
employment decision-making occurs and there's a lot of
statistics related to that. What I was saying, if AI is
designed, developed, and deployed in a transparent matter where
we can understand what the factors are that go into that, it
can discriminate less, and if there's less discrimination,
there's less enforcement. That was the context of that.
Senator Kim. Okay. On the employment side of things?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, it was very much on the employment
side in a very specific context. And what I was arguing there
is, if we have it right, we can actually have a contemporaneous
record of how an employment decision was being made.
If you think right now, how an employment decision is being
made, if there's bias, we don't know what was in that hiring
manager's brain. We can't crack that. And when you ask somebody
if they discriminated, very rarely does ever anyone actually
ever admit that. So, what I was saying is that if we get the AI
transparent, we can actually see those employment decisions,
see if it was fair or see it was bias. And that's very hard to
do right now without technology.
Senator Kim. That's a helpful clarification. I guess I'd
like to expand it and get your sense then, kind of along the
lines of what my colleague was just asking. Are there any
particular industries and sectors where you think that AI and
next generation technologies can get to a place where they are
replacing and displacing workers? Not augmenting. I'm just
wondering, are there certain areas, certain sectors, certain
types of jobs you are worried about and you would want to keep
an eye on as the deputy?
Mr. Sonderling. Yes, that's a great question. And there's
been a lot of very fancy studies done on this. And I'm putting
my former EEOC commissioner hat on. What I was concerned with
from that job is who would disproportionately impact from a
discrimination standpoint?
Senator Kim. Sorry, I'm not asking about the employment
side. I'm asking about actually, like are you worried about,
for instance, the trucking industry? Are you worried about?
Mr. Sonderling. Yes.
Senator Kim. I'm trying to help people in New Jersey,
across this country understand what are the vulnerabilities
when it comes to our workforce, when it comes to AI, and get
your perspective as someone who may very well play a critical
role in this.
Mr. Sonderling. This is where we have to use the other side
of the Department of Labor to make sure that if there are
people being displaced by AI jobs, which I was getting to, is
inevitable, that we have the tools to be able to re-skill,
upskill whatever the fancy buzz word----
Senator Kim. My question is, what jobs are you worried
about? What industries are you worried about? And then we can
hone in and figure out how to try to address that, how to be
able to provide people in those industries, certain types of
training and whatnot.
Mr. Sonderling. Well, I mean, if you look at the jobs being
displaced by generative AI, a lot of those are knowledge worker
jobs. A lot of those are jobs that have been historically done
within an office. And now that's an area that we need to re-
skill and make sure that there are remaining parts of their
job. And if not, where else in the workforce do they fit with
those skills that they previously had?
Senator Kim. I just want to switch here and just switch
gears. I just want to ask you; do you support the work that
OSHA does regarding safe workplaces and environments?
Mr. Sonderling. Of course, it is one of the most important
missions that the Department of Labor to ensure that all
workers have a healthy and safe workplace.
Senator Kim. Do you think OSHA has been sufficiently funded
over the years?
Mr. Sonderling. I am committed to doing a full workplace
analysis, not just on OSHA, but every other enforcement agency
within the Department of Labor to make sure that each agency
has the investigative and law enforcement and safety resources
that they need.
Senator Kim. There have been some efforts in the past to
try to cut OSHA. When I was over in the house, we saw $95
million proposals by the House of Republicans to cut OSHA. Does
that concern you at all?
Mr. Sonderling. If confirmed, I will look at all the, not
only the workplace makeup, but also the budgetary needs for the
department and work with the White House and this Congress to
make sure that the agencies are able to function with the
proper budget.
Senator Kim. But you recognize the importance of this, and
if you're confirmed, you'll work with this Committee to make
sure that it's being protected to the level that we need to
ensure safe work environments.
Mr. Sonderling. I will confirm and ensure you that for all
the agencies within the Department of Labor are all very
important. And as Deputy Secretary, we will make sure that
everyone has the resources they need.
Senator Kim. Thank you, I yield back.
The Chairman. Senator Moody.
Senator Moody. Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Soderling. No. 1,
go Gators.
Mr. Sonderling. Go Gators.
Senator Moody. Important. We must get that out of the way.
Mr. Sonderling. You missed a photo with two Florida
Senator, former Senator George was here a while ago.
The Chairman. Go Gators is ruled out of order.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Sonderling. Oh, I just lost my confirmation. Go Tigers.
[Laughter.]
Senator Moody. I did not see the former LeMieux who I have
the honor of now serving in his Senatorial line. So, it's such
a privilege.
Mr. Sonderling. You missed the forward picture.
Senator Moody. We'll have to make up for that. The first
time we met was in the office when I got to interview for this
important nomination. I was so impressed with you, not just
because of your incredible educational pedigree, but your grasp
of what this department does, what it is meant to do, what it
is not meant to do, and the way that you have volunteered so
selflessly when you could be doing so much in the private
world, probably to your pecuniary benefit, but using your
talents and your gifts of God to benefit this Nation and this
country that you love. It was very inspiring to me, and I just
want you to know that.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you.
Senator Moody. American labor plays a vital role in
creating our wealth in this Nation. It's with the department's
founding that the Federal Government sought to balance the
rights of the American laborer with the innovation and growth
of American industry. And this was a noble goal that was set
forth in our earliest days.
Although we were not always perfect, it was through our
efforts of a self-governing people, and through our innovation
that we came to create the freest and most dynamic economy in
the world. Yet under the previous Administration, I was
surprised and disappointed when I saw the department veer from
this crucial mission, and instead, take many times a hostile
stand against the independence of the American worker and the
productivity of American business.
Rather than facilitate the collaboration and cooperation
between Americans in all sectors, the Administration seemed to
divide American from American. In pursuit of political and
ideological ends, Biden appointed officials over zealously
interpreted the law to the detriment of Americans and attack
states that deviated from their ideological line. We talked a
lot about this during your interview.
In Florida, we had Federal funding threatened because our
legislature, as representatives of the people of Florida, dared
to pass a law that limited automatic dues withdrawals from
paychecks and other common-sense reforms. And in response, I
filed suit on behalf of Florida. And I believe the department
can play a vital role in growing our economy, and at the same
time, protecting the American worker while respecting the
rights of the states to pass common sense laws.
I think it is very, very important right now at this moment
in our Country's history, that the American worker and the
American business and the American economy comes first. And we
can do that at the same time, and I believe you and your team
will make that a reality.
But the Department of Labor must return to its core
mission, and that is to help make this country productive
again. And I just want to get from you, Mr. Sonderling, I know
we talked about several things in our meeting, but when the
Biden administration threatened to withhold Federal funding
after Florida enacted landmark legislation that enabled public
workers to make their own decisions on whether to join a union
and prohibited unions from withdrawing union dues directly from
employees paychecks without their consent, we had to bring
litigation over that because $800 million was on the line to
our state. I would like to know how you will prevent that from
happening in the future, and do you respect the rights of
states to enact common sense right-to-work laws?
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator. And No. 1, as you know,
this issue is in litigation, and the Department of Justice
represents the Department of Labor. However I can assure you as
Deputy Secretary of Labor, all the laws that the U.S.
Department of Labor enforces will be done so fairly and without
any political bias or prejudice, period.
I think to just speaking broadly about the Department of
Labor under the Federal Transit Act related to certifying the
funds going to certain states, and its very technical issue
with that 13C requirement with six various elements. What I can
assure you is that all elements like that, that the Department
of Labor has to make a judgment call on will be done so in
accordance with the law and nothing else, and no political bias
will be injected into that.
You have my absolute assurance, whether it's on that issue
or any issue across the board. To your second question of
courts, I respect states being able to pass bills. The bill
referenced Florida Senate Bill 256, Florida is completely
within its jurisdiction to do that, and other states are
similar as well. And I will continue to respect that as Deputy
Secretary of Labor.
Senator Moody. I want to just tell the Committee as I wrap
this up, I had a whole other line of questioning regarding the
lost children and the Department of Labor's involvement in
that. But your preparation and ability to handle not only my
interviews from some very tough questions, you were on the
spot, you knew everything and had a great response to every
question. I know you will serve incredibly well in this role. I
have great confidence in you.
Mr. Sonderling. No Florida bias there.
Senator Moody. None at all.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank You, Senator.
Senator Moody. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Baldwin.
Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sonderling,
the President has indicated that he wants to bring back
Presidential Impoundment authority. The Congressional
Impoundment Act of 1974 puts limits on the President's
authority to impound funds. I serve on the Subcommittee of
Appropriations that funds the Department of Labor. And I would
like to hear whether you will ensure that funding decisions
that are made and passed by this Congress are implemented as
intended.
Mr. Sonderling. First of all as Deputy Secretary it will be
my first time really diving into the Federal budget process.
And I look forward very much to working with you and ensuring
that at all times, any decisions related to funding or the
department's use and spending of that funding is absolutely
coordinated with our Career Solicitor's office who understands
those laws.
Senator Baldwin. When Congress passes appropriation bills
funding the Department of Labor and its various subdivisions,
will you implement as Congress intends?
Mr. Sonderling. I will always follow the law.
Senator Baldwin. Okay. In the past month, you have been the
senior advisor to the Acting Secretary of Labor. In that time,
the Department of Government deficiency, DOGE, has received
access to large data sets within the Department of Labor, which
include an incredible amount of very sensitive data, including
medical and financial records of Americans. Mr. Sonderling, in
your role as senior advisor, how are you interacting with and
working with DOGE?
Mr. Sonderling. Well, I can assure you that everything
related to DOGE at the Department of Labor is being handled
right now by the Department of Justice. There was a lawsuit
filed by unions against the Department of Labor related to
DOGE's access to the department, the Department of Justice----
Senator Baldwin. What is the question that is before the
court with regard to DOGE's access?
Mr. Sonderling. Whether or not they're allowed to have
access to any systems of the Department of Labor.
Senator Baldwin. You can answer then a question of have
they been given access previously?
Mr. Sonderling. I would have to refer you to the court
documents that lays out all of the access.
Senator Baldwin. Is that the question before the court?
Mr. Sonderling. Yes. Among other things related to DOGE,
but any access to any system----
Senator Baldwin. The question is, have they even had access
to the data?
Mr. Sonderling. That was all being dealt with through the
Department of Justice?
Senator Baldwin. Can't even ask the question of whether
you've interacted with anybody from DOGE in your capacity as
the senior advisor to the Acting Secretary of Labor?
Mr. Sonderling. Everything related to DOGE is tied up in
the Department of Justice's defense of the lawsuit related to
their access or----
Senator Baldwin. Who could I ask this question to?
Mr. Sonderling. The Department of Justice represents the
Department of Labor in this matter and can help.
Senator Baldwin. The Department of Justice would tell me
who at Labor has had access? We need to be able to ask
questions about what has happened to the sensitive data of
Americans, including medical records and financial records. And
you're saying you can't answer that question, even though
you've been there as this access has taken place?
Mr. Sonderling. Everything related to the DOGE's access or
requested access to the Department of Labor is in litigation
right now here in DC, and the Department of Justice represents
the Department of Labor on all of those matters.
Senator Baldwin. One of the sets of records that they may
have access to is with regard to OSHA. OSHA collects a lot of
information with regard to their enforcement of rules about
workplace safety. Does DOGE have access to OSHA records at this
point in time?
Mr. Sonderling. Everything related to DOGE's, access to the
Department of Labor is being dealt with is court in DC and the
Department of Justice represents----
Senator Baldwin. The access frozen during the court's
contemplation of these issues?
Mr. Sonderling. According to my knowledge of the lawsuit,
which is all based on public information, there has been zero
access given.
Senator Baldwin. Can you make any comment about last week's
report that OSHA closed a case regarding a worker's death at a
Tesla plant in Austin, Texas?
Mr. Sonderling. I'm not aware of that.
Senator Baldwin. You're not aware of that?
Mr. Sonderling. No. I would defer you to the leadership in
OSHA.
Senator Baldwin. One of the issues that I have been
involved with is frankly how dangerous it is to be a healthcare
worker and a social worker at this point in time in terms of
workplace violence. Do you support OSHA's role in creating
rules to address workplace violence faced by our healthcare
personnel and social workers?
Mr. Sonderling. If confirmed, I will assure you that I will
look into this issue and work specifically with your office on
this issue, because it's important to you and everyone else.
Senator Baldwin. Mr. Chair, I've run out of time.
The Chairman. Now, I'll go to Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr.
Sonderling. Good to see you.
Mr. Sonderling. Nice seeing you, too.
Senator Hickenlooper. Appreciate your time and access. Back
on January 25th, President Trump fired the 17 Inspectors
General across 18 agencies including the IG at Department of
Labor. We didn't get any notice or any rationale. The
Administration set goals to reduce fraud and waste but the
firing of inspectors from their post stalling many of the
audits on Federal resources is definitely reducing transparency
with the public.
We get hundreds of calls about what's going on. Most of the
questioning today has been around this stuff. But you are part
of the transition. Did you hear any rationale for getting rid
of those Inspector Generals on mass, all of them at once?
Mr. Sonderling. That was a decision that only President
Trump can make as the leader of the Executive Branch. And it is
within his full authority to make all personnel decisions
related to the Executive Branch.
Senator Hickenlooper. But, did you really hear what the
rationale was? I don't argue he is got the authority, I'm just
curious whether he gave a rationale to you folks doing the
work.
Mr. Sonderling. I'm not aware.
Senator Hickenlooper. You have an acting Inspector General
now, I understand.
Mr. Sonderling. Yes.
Senator Hickenlooper. Is that Inspector General overseeing
some of this effort to reduce fraud and waste?
Mr. Sonderling. We do have an acting Inspector General with
the full powers of an Inspector General, and that they are
separate from the Department of Labor. We don't have direct
oversight of them. If I'm Deputy Secretary, they're
independent. So, I believe they are functioning in full
capacity.
Senator Hickenlooper. What kind of a vetting process did
this Inspector General go through?
Mr. Sonderling. The acting general now?
Senator Hickenlooper. Yes, the acting, the person in place
now.
Mr. Sonderling. I'm not sure. He was here before I started,
and I think he's a career employee now in the acting position.
Senator Hickenlooper. You have confidence in the work he's
doing?
Mr. Sonderling. I have a hundred percent confidence in the
Department of Labor, in all divisions and the staff there.
Senator Hickenlooper. Great. And you have a broad
experience in government, some of the broadest actually of
people we've talked to in any of these confirmation hearings.
You, obviously, understand the importance of whistle blowers,
of making sure that we can get relevant information at the
relevant time, and make sure that the public feels like there's
no coverup, that there's no secret deals going on.
We can find ways to understand what the workers are going
through and find ways to improve it to productivity, get rid of
fraud and waste. What assurances are we able to give those
workers that they can blow the whistle, as it were, report
issues that they think are of, of real importance and yet be
protected from repercussions?
Mr. Sonderling. Well Senator, this is a very important
issue for the Department of Labor. As you know, OSHA enforces
over 25 whistleblower laws that Congress has determined that
should be at the Department of Labor, even for areas outside of
our jurisdiction. So, it is a very important part of the
Department of Labor to deal with whistleblower cases across
many Federal statutes.
To your specific question, there are whistleblower laws. As
a former EEOC commissioner, there is also retaliation
protection related to some of those laws as well. And I can
assure you that all laws that the Department of Labor enforces
we will continue to do that.
Senator Hickenlooper. Great. I appreciate that. Last, and
you'll remember when we talked to--a mayor for a while,
Governor for 8 years, mayor for 8 years, and we did work to
make Government smaller. And one of the things you and I
discussed this a little bit, but when you're having layoffs and
we've seen layoffs now in six of the departments in labor, the
morale is so important.
What steps do you anticipate taking when confirmed, if
confirmed? How do you go about addressing the issues about
morale? Because we are hearing from a number of employees, not
even people that have been laid off, but employees that are
there, they feel disheartened, disenchanted that their morale
is very low.
Mr. Sonderling. Yes. I think two things. One, if confirmed,
I'll make sure that all applicable laws and regulations are
applied in any kind of workforce development changes. No. 2, I
think it's very important, and I think the Department of Labor
employees and all employees throughout the Federal Government
truly believe in their mission. And I think a lot of it is
going to be refocusing on the purpose of these agencies and at
the DOL to protect the American workforce.
Senator Hickenlooper. Right. Well, there are no laws about
morale. So, I guess I'll end it there. Thank you.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. Senator Markey.
Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Very much. Mr.
Sonderling, I believe that workers should be able to clock into
work knowing that they'll return home safe. When my father was
a young man working in a factory, his finger got chopped off.
And the boss said to him, you should probably go to a doctor
John, and see you at work on Monday.
My father used to use another finger on the same hand to
describe his attitude toward the boss. And that was before OSHA
was put on the books as a law. And he would make fun of that
situation with us, but we know that he missed his finger.
Now, at the time, Republicans said, well, if you put
something like OSHA on the books, it's Marxist. You can't have
that kind of Marxism going into the private sector. It's just a
private bargain between an individual and the worker and the
company. But of course, my father didn't view it that way. He
supported OSHA being put on the books.
200 workers lose a finger or an arm or a leg at work every
single month in America today. 200 Americans, an arm, a leg, or
a finger at work every single month. And there are also 5,000
workplace fatalities every single year in the United States of
America, which translates into about 15 workers dying every
single day across our Country. So even with OSHA on the books,
and it was much worse, no question, it was much worse in the
forties, in the fifties, Okay. But it still is a lot of people
every single day.
Yet, according to the Department of Labor's own data,
there's only one health and safety inspector per 4,300
workplaces and 70,000 workers in the country, even today. It's
all of us, one per 4,300 workplaces.
When the Department of Labor can't enforce worker safety
laws, it's a handout, obviously, to greedy companies that
abused their workers for profit. In 2023, for example, Amazon
brought in $30 billion in profit. And that same year, one in 15
Amazon warehouse workers were injured on the job, breaking
their own backs, toiling under oppressive surveillance,
punitive speed quotas to make a buck for their boss.
Yet since President Trump was inaugurated, he and Elon Musk
have fired Department of Labor employees. They have deleted
worker safety information; they've deleted the worker safety
information from their Web sites. And yesterday they demanded
the department create a plan for mass staff layoffs.
Mr. Sonderling, do you commit today to protecting workers
from employers like Amazon, so that every worker can go to work
knowing that they will come home safe at the end of the day to
their families?
Mr. Sonderling. Senator Markey, thank you for that story
about your father, is one I may use moving forward, if that's
Okay. As far as you have my full commitment, and I wouldn't be
here today if it wasn't for protecting the American worker for
worker safety.
You have my full commitment if confirmed as Deputy
Secretary of Labor, I will go through each law enforcement
agency and make sure that there's adequate resources, including
in determining that the investigators are in the places they
need to be with the highest violations.
Senator Markey. You'll oppose any action that would make
workers less safe. You would oppose any action?
Mr. Sonderling. That the law is to make the workers safe.
And I'll uphold the law.
Senator Markey. You would oppose any action that would
reduce safety?
Mr. Sonderling. What I read----
Senator Markey. Is that yes? You will oppose anything that
would reduce safety.
Mr. Sonderling. I have confidence that you--even in the OPM
directive, in the executive order, it says the health and
safety inspectors are exempt----
Senator Markey. Would you oppose taking a chainsaw to the
resources at the agencies that would enable the Department of
Labor to enforce those worker safety laws; would you oppose
that?
Mr. Sonderling. I would give you my assurances that I will
work with all the law enforcement agencies to have the
resources they need.
Senator Markey. Yes. I'm not hearing a yes. Would you
oppose anything that would actually result in an increase in
the number of fingers, arms, other body parts that are cut up?
Would you oppose anything that would manifestly result in an
increase in the danger to work is in the workplace over in the
year 2025 or 2026?
Mr. Sonderling. If confirmed, you have my assurances from
both the secretary and I that we will do everything to protect
worker safety.
Senator Markey. I appreciate what you're saying, you'll
oppose anything that will increase the number of people losing
their fingers?
Mr. Sonderling. We will faithfully Enforce the law with all
the department's resources.
Senator Markey. I'm not hearing a yes. Again, my father
would want a yes. Okay. I'm listening to you, Papa. I can't get
the answer from him. And I know that he sounds a lot like the
boss that you were not happy with. I just need guarantees here,
and I'm not hearing the guarantees to make sure the
corporations can't increase profits at the expense of the
public health of workers. Thank you.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. This concludes our hearing. Thank you for
being here, Mr. Sonderling.
Mr. Sonderling. Thank you, Senator.
The Chairman. For any Senators who wish to add additional
questions, questions for the record will be due by tomorrow at
5 p.m. And again, we gavel out.
QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Responses by Keith Sonderling to Questions of Senator Murray, Senator
Kaine, Senator Hassan, Senator Hickenlooper, Senator Markey, Senator
Blunt Rochester and, Senator Alsobrooks.
senator murray
Question 1. In your current role on the transition team at the
Department of Labor, what are your job duties?
Answer 1. My role as a volunteer on the Trump-Vance transition team
ended when President Trump was inaugurated on January 20, 2025. Since
then, I have been a full-time employee at the U.S. Department of Labor
as a Senior Advisor.
Question 2. In response to questions at your hearing, you noted
that you received an e-mail from the Office of Personnel Management
(OPM) on Saturday, February 22, 2025 with the subject line ``What did
you do last week'' asking you to reply with five things you did last
week. Did you reply?
(a). If you did reply, what were the five items you listed?
(b). If you did not reply, why not?
(c). Do you believe it is appropriate for OPM to circumvent
leadership at a Federal agency and provide direction directly
to an agency's employees?
Answer 2(a)--(c). Yes, I did reply. I listed five asks related to
my confirmation hearing and my job as an advisor to the Department. I
understand and respect that the Office of Personnel Management is
responsible for providing direction to executive branch employees,
including those at the Department of Labor.
Question 3. In your current role on the transition team at the
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, what are your job duties?
(a). Were you involved in the decision or implementation of the
decision to stop processing charges related to gender identity?
(b). Were you involved in the decision or implementation of the
decision to dismiss Commissioners Charlotte Burrows or Jocelyn
Samuels?
Answer 3(a)--(b). My role as a volunteer on the Trump-Vance
transition team ended when President Trump was inaugurated on January
20, 2025. Since then, I have been a full-time employee at the U.S.
Department of Labor as a Senior Advisor. The decisions you reference
occurred after my tenure at the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, in which I had no involvement.
Question 4. At your hearing, you promised a review of each civil
law enforcement division of the Department of Labor to ensure that they
have the resources necessary. What criteria will you use to determine
if they have the necessary resources?
Answer 4. If confirmed, I will work with the Secretary of Labor and
leadership at all of the Department's civil law enforcement agencies to
discuss their needs and ensure they have the resources necessary to
fulfill their individual missions to protect workers. This includes
learning more about where law enforcement and compliance are needed.
Evaluating metrics will provide a better understanding of where certain
resources should be shifted and applied, to better serve the American
worker.
Question 5. What does the Federal trust responsibility to Tribes
mean to you?
(a). What role do you believe the Department of Labor plays in
fulfilling the Federal trust responsibility?
(b). How will you ensure that the Department of Labor's budget
requests, funding allocations, staffing levels, and
implementation of policies will uphold and advance the Federal
trust responsibility to Tribes?
(c). What steps will you take to ensure that government-to-
government consultation between the Department of Labor and
Tribes is a meaningful and enforceable process, rather than a
box checking formality?
Answer 5(a)--(c). I am aware that the Federal trust responsibility
requires the Federal Government to respect tribal rights, which may
include treaties between the Federal Government and various tribal
nations. If confirmed, I will work with the experts at the Department
to identify how the Department is meeting its Federal trust
obligations. As I work with the Secretary and agency leadership on the
Department's budget request, I will keep this responsibility in mind.
At the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, I spent considerable
time with various tribal communities, including those in Washington
State, providing resources and compliance assistance on employment
laws.
Question 6. In our conversation, you indicated that one of the core
functions of the Department of Labor is as a law enforcement agency. At
hearing, you also indicated that the Occupational Safety and Health
Administration (OSHA) has an important public safety function and would
be exempt from the February 26, 2025 Office of Management and Budget
Memorandum regarding ``Guidance on Agency RIF and Reorganization Plans
Requested by Implementing the President's `Department of Government
Efficiency' Workforce Optimization Initiative.'' By its own terms, the
memorandum excludes ``[p]ositions that are necessary to meet law
enforcement, border security, national security, immigration
enforcement, or public safety responsibilities.'' Do you believe OSHA
should be exempt from the requirements of this memo? If not, why?
(a). Do you believe that the Wage and Hour Division should be
exempt from this memorandum? If not, why?
(b). Do you believe that the Mine Safety and Health
Administration should be exempt from this memorandum? If not,
why?
(c). Do you believe that the Office of Federal Contract
Compliance Programs should be exempt from this memorandum? If
not, why?
(d). Do you believe that the Office of the Solicitor should be
exempt from this memorandum? If not, why?
Answer 6(a)--(d). I am committed to the Department's important
mission of ensuring that employees work in safe and healthful
environments. The OPM Directive and Executive Order 14210 you reference
contains exemptions for law enforcement and public safety roles. If
confirmed, I commit to working with the experts at the Department
including the Office of the Solicitor, as well as those in the
Administration, to determine the appropriate exemptions and ensure the
protection of American workers.
senator kaine
Question 1. How many Department of Labor employees have been fired,
furloughed, or placed on administrative leave since January 20, 2025?
How many of those were veterans of the United States military?
Answer 1. The Department of Labor's Office of the Assistant
Secretary for Management is responsible for all human resource
decisions at the Department. I have full faith and confidence that the
staff in this office is complying with all applicable laws while
reviewing Executive Orders and the Office of Personnel Management
guidance.
Question 2. In 2021, Long COVID was included as a disability under
the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). This allows individuals to
seek appropriate accommodations at work or school. However, as of
February 11, Long COVID is no longer listed on AskJAN's directory. The
Web site provides key resources and suggestions for accommodations. Why
was this removed? If confirmed, will you ensure that you and other
officials at the Department of Labor will continue to prioritize Long
COVID to support the millions of individuals who are living with the
disease?
Answer 2. If confirmed, I look forward to being briefed on the
resources offered by the Office on Disability Employment Policy,
including the Job Accommodation Network. I will work with the experts
at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to ensure
that any and all resources be made available to stakeholders provided
those resources are offered in accordance with the applicable law and
the Administration's priorities.
Question 3. Our Nation's coal miners have worked for decades to
keep the country's lights on and manufacturing plants running, which
has resulted in a Black Lung epidemic in our Country. A study was
conducted between 2013 and 2017 in Southwest Virginia, where over 400
miners were identified to have progressive massive fibrosis--which is a
very complicated form of Black. Many coalfields in Virginia have been
coaled out, leaving miners to cut through stone and rock, resulting in
silica dust inhaling. Researchers have found that exposure to silica
dust, in particular, is causing severe and complicated forms of Black
Lung disease that affect folks at a younger age. At my urging, the Mine
Safety and Health Administration finalized a rule to reduce miner
exposure to silica dust. Coal mines will have to come into compliance
with the rule's requirements by April. I'm hopeful this will help
reduce the risk of this debilitating disease. As Secretary, will you
agree to implement and enforce the new silica dust standard? Will you
work with Congress to ensure MSHA has the resources to properly and
effectively implement the new silica dust standard?
Answer 3. Protecting workers against safety and health hazards is
one of the Department's essential core responsibilities. The Mine
Safety and Health Administration's rule lowering its crystalline silica
permissible exposure limit is the subject of ongoing litigation. If
confirmed, I will work with Congress to ensure that all Department
agencies, including Mine Safety and Health Administration, have the
resources needed to fulfill their respective missions.
Question 4. Analysis from Appalachian Voices and Appalachian
Citizens Law Center finds that the cost of living in many coal
communities is significantly higher than Black Lung benefits payments.
The report--Benefits for Coal Miners with Black Lung Falling Behind--
finds that in some places, the average monthly cost of living for a
miner and a dependent is $3,000 more than benefit payments. Benefit
levels are currently tied to the Federal pay scale rather than the cost
of living, which disconnects benefit levels from inflation. In 2023,
inflation rates were 8 percent, but benefit levels increased by just 4
percent. We must ensure those who sacrificed their health in the mines
do not have to choose between groceries and rent by aligning the
payments to miners with the actual cost of living. As Secretary, how
will you close the growing gap between the cost of living and the
stipends paid to miners with Black Lung and their families?
Answer 4. I understand and appreciate the critical role of our
Nation's coal miners, and I fully support the Department's mission of
protecting workers against workplace hazards, including in mining. No
worker should ever have to worry that once they leave their home, they
could be injured on the job. If confirmed, I will work with the experts
at the Department to ensure the health and safety of our coal miners
and retired miners living with Black Lung disease.
senator hassan
Question 1. In 2023, the Department of Labor launched an
interagency task force with the Department of Justice, the Department
of Homeland Security, and other Federal agencies to enhance
investigations into child labor and hold violators accountable.
If confirmed, will you commit to continuing this interagency
partnership and vigorously enforcing child labor laws against
violators?
Answer 1. If confirmed, our child labor laws will be vigorously
enforced, and violators will be held accountable. I look forward to
working in cooperation with other Federal agencies to that end. Upon
taking office, I will commit to carefully reviewing the current
interagency relationships alongside the Secretary of Labor to ensure
that all the resources of the Federal Government are used efficiently
and effectively to protect children and the American worker.
senator hickenlooper
Re. Advisory Committee on Apprenticeship
Question 1. On Thursday, February 26, 2025, President Trump
announced that he was closing the Department of Labor's Advisory
Committee on Apprenticeships. This is concerning as the advisory
committee convened a wide array of our Nation's experts on
apprenticeship, including policy researchers and apprenticeship
sponsors, to help share best practices and improve stakeholder
engagement with our national apprenticeship system.
Closing this committee runs counter to this Administration's
commitment to support efforts to strengthen and expand apprenticeship
programs.
(a). What was the rationale for closing the Advisory Committee?
(b). How do you plan to convene and receive feedback from
apprenticeship experts, who have been essential to informing
policies?
Answer 1(a)--(b). The President's Executive Order entitled
Commencing the Reduction of the Federal Bureaucracy sets forth the
Administration's policy for reducing the size of the Federal Government
to minimize waste, fraud, abuse, and inflation and to promote American
freedom and innovation. The Department determined that a number of
advisory committees, including the Advisory Committee on
Apprenticeship, fulfilled the purposes for which they were established.
We will continue to engage with a broad range of stakeholders in this
effort and look forward to working with your office. Expanding high-
quality apprenticeships and engaging more Americans in this proven
pathway to career success is a priority for the Department of Labor as
it delivers on President Trump's America First agenda.
Question 2. In 2020, DOL issued guidance that enabled retirement
plans to expand the default use of e-delivery for plan documents. Are
there benefits to expanding this flexibility to health and welfare
plans?
(1). What guardrails would you recommend policy makers put in
place to make sure that as we modernize document delivery,
account updates remain timely and accessible, particularly for
customers who face challenges to access or navigate technology?
Answer 2--(1). The Department of Labor administers many legal
provisions that ensure workers and retirees understand their employee
benefits. As you noted, in 2020, the Trump administration finalized a
regulation that made it easier for retirement plans to utilize default
electronic delivery of these mandatory disclosures. I am also aware of
bipartisan interest in modernizing these rules for health and welfare
plans to reduce administrative costs and improve the usefulness of the
disclosures for workers. If confirmed, I look forward to being briefed
on the potential benefits and challenges of modernizing these
regulations and consulting with all stakeholders in a transparent
manner.
senator markey
Question 1. If confirmed, do you commit to ensuring the Department
of Labor (DOL) abides by all terms and conditions of collective
bargaining agreements between the Department of Labor and agency staff?
Answer 1. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the Department's
human resources experts, along with any directives from the White
House, when making employment-related decisions.
Question 2. If confirmed, do you commit to advising the Secretary
of Labor and any other administration official that the Department of
Labor (DOL) must abide by all terms and conditions of collective
bargaining agreements between the Department of Labor and agency staff?
Answer 2. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the Department's
human resources experts, along with other Executive Branch agencies,
when making employment-related decisions.
Question 3. If confirmed, do you commit to working to reinstate any
Department of Labor employees fired in violation of law or in violation
of collective bargaining agreements?
Answer 3. If confirmed, I will work with the Secretary of Labor and
the experts at the Department, including the Solicitor's Office and
human resources professionals, to ensure all personnel actions at the
Department of Labor are taken in accordance with the law. I respect the
authority of the President to make personnel decisions across the
Executive Branch, including at the Department of Labor.
Question 4. If confirmed, what steps will you take to ensure that
career personnel within the Department of Labor are protected from
politically motivated dismissals and reassignments?
Answer 4. If confirmed, I will work with the Secretary of Labor and
the experts at the Department, including the Solicitor's Office and
human resources professionals, to ensure all personnel actions at the
Department of Labor are taken in accordance with the law. I respect the
authority of the President to make personnel decisions across the
executive branch, including at the Department of Labor.
Question 5. President Trump's actions related to the disbursement
of Federal funding, funding freezes, and funding cuts have created
widespread confusion and halted critical government programs. What will
you do to ensure DOL funding--which was appropriated by Congress--is
disbursed to DOL grantees on time and in full?
Answer 5. If confirmed, I will follow all applicable laws.
Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE)
Question 6. In the past several weeks, documents that include the
words ``diverse'' and ``gender'' have been removed from the Department
of Labor Web site, including ergonomic guidelines for employers on
workers' risk of musculoskeletal injury, guidance for emergency medical
services responders on treating toxic exposure victims, and best
practices from health care facilities addressing workplace violence.
(a). If confirmed, do you commit to ensuring that these
documents are made available again?
Answer 6--(a). The Department of Labor provides the public with
documents on important occupational health and safety topics to help
workers understand best safety practices at work. I have been made
aware that certain guidance has been temporarily taken down for editing
to ensure it is compliant with President Trump's Executive Order 14151.
If confirmed, I look forward to working with the Department and the
Secretary of Labor to ensure compliance with all of the President's
Executive Orders and to ensure employers have the information they need
to maintain a safe working place.
Question 7. The DOL's ``worker.gov'' Web site has been disabled. If
confirmed, do you commit to ensuring this Web page is made available
again?
Answer 7. I am proud of the role I played in the creation of
Worker.Gov during President Trump's first administration. I have been
made aware that certain guidance has been temporarily taken down for
editing to ensure it is compliant with President Trump's Executive
Order 14151. If confirmed, I look forward to working with the
Department and the Secretary of Labor to ensure compliance with all of
the President's Executive Orders and to ensure employers have the
information they need to maintain a safe working place.
Question 8. The DOL's ``employer.gov'' Web site has been disabled.
If confirmed, do you commit to ensuring this Web page is made available
again?
Answer 8. I am proud of the role I played in the creation of
Employer.Gov during President Trump's first administration. I have been
made aware that certain guidance has been temporarily taken down for
editing to ensure it is compliant with President Trump's Executive
Order 14151. If confirmed, I look forward to working with the
Department and the Secretary of Labor to ensure compliance with all of
the President's Executive Orders and to ensure employers have the
information they need to maintain a safe working place.
Question 9. If confirmed, what will you do to ensure Elon Musk and
DOGE personnel do not interfere with workplace safety enforcement and
wage compliance efforts?
Answer 9. As you are aware, these issues are in litigation. The
Department of Justice is representing the Department of Labor in that
matter. I therefore refer all questions related to these issues to the
Department of Justice. If confirmed, I will always follow the law as I
have throughout my career in public service.
Question 10. If confirmed, what will you do to ensure that DOGE
personnel do not compromise the integrity and confidentiality of data
in DOL systems and data bases? What will you do to ensure that DOGE
personnel do not harvest or modify data in DOL systems and databases?
Answer 10. As you are aware, these issues are in litigation. The
Department of Justice is representing the Department of Labor in that
matter. I therefore refer all questions related to these issues to the
Department of Justice. If confirmed, I will always follow the law as I
have throughout my career in public service.
Question 11. What will you do to protect employer and worker data
and other confidential information or materials from DOGE personnel?
Answer 11. As you are aware, these issues are in litigation. The
Department of Justice is representing the Department of Labor in that
matter. I therefore refer all questions related to these issues to the
Department of Justice. If confirmed, I will always follow the law as I
have throughout my career in public service.
Worker Safety
Question 12. Does the Department of Labor has sufficient resources
to enforce worker health and safety laws?
(a). What additional resources does OSHA need to effectively
enforce health and safety laws at workplaces within its
jurisdiction?
(b). What additional resources does the Wage and Hour Division
(WHD) need to effectively enforce health and safety laws at
workplaces within its jurisdiction?
(c). If President Trump and Elon Musk achieve their goal of
cutting 10 percent of the Federal workforce, how could the
Department of Labor adequately enforce the laws it is tasked to
enforce?
Answer 12(a)--(c). I am committed to the Department of Labor's
mission to enforce health and safety laws. If confirmed, I look forward
to working with the experts at the Department to assess available
resources and identify any additional needs. While the President
proposes the budget, it is ultimately up to Congress to determine
funding. I am committed to supporting the President in developing
budget proposals that prioritize the protection of American workers,
and I will ensure that any resources allocated are used efficiently and
responsibly.
Question 13. Amazon is the second largest private sector employer
in the country, with over one million workers. Amazon uses a punishing
quota system powered by invasive surveillance technology to enforce
speed standards. In 2023, one in 15 Amazon workers were injured on the
job. What should the Department of Labor be doing to promote warehouse
worker safety?
Answer 13. I am committed to the Department of Labor's mission to
enforce health and safety laws. If confirmed, I look forward to hearing
from you and other stakeholders about this important issue. I will
commit to engaging with the public in a transparent manner to evaluate
regulatory needs. The Department will uphold the highest standards of
occupational safety, ensuring that rules prioritize the well-being of
workers while being clear, practical, and achievable for employers.
Question 14. While you served as Acting Administrator of the Wage
and Hour Division, the Department of Labor launched the Payroll Audit
Independent Determination (PAID) Program, which prohibited workers from
taking private action regarding Federal minimum wage and overtime
violations if their employers self-reported those violations. If
confirmed, do you commit to protecting workers' rights to take private
action if they are the victims of wage and overtime violations,
regardless of how those violations are discovered?
Answer 14. If confirmed, I commit to working with the staff at the
Wage and Hour Division to ensure workers' rights are protected and
employers receive clear and transparent guidance from the Department
about their obligations.
Question 15. While Acting Administrator of the Wage and Hour
Division, you wrote a memo to an undisclosed company asserting that
their workers were contractors and exempt from Federal labor law
despite receiving work assignments, pay, and supervision from an app-
based platform. Do you believe a company providing work assignments,
pay, and supervision to workers should be exempt from Federal labor
law?
Answer 15. I believe it is vital that both employers and workers
have clarity and guidance on employee or independent contractor
classification under the Fair Labor Standards Act. The memorandum that
you reference was an opinion letter which addressed the issue of
employee or independent contractor classification under the Fair Labor
Standards Act. Since that opinion letter was drafted, the Department
implemented a rule under the previous administration dealing directly
with this issue. I understand that this rule is still in litigation. If
confirmed, I will commit to carefully reviewing all regulations under
the Department's jurisdiction and working with my colleagues in the
Solicitor's Office and at the Department of Justice as appropriate on
regulatory litigation.
Question 16. While you served at the Department of Labor, the
Department rescinded a rule requiring businesses employing more than
250 people to document and keep records of workplace injuries and
illnesses for 5 years. Do you maintain support for employers not
keeping records of workplace injuries and illnesses?
Answer 16. I am committed to the Department of Labor's mission of
enforcing workplace health and safety laws. If confirmed, I will
consult with the experts at the Occupational Safety and Health
Administration and the Office of the Solicitor to review all
regulations to ensure that they are adequate to ensuring safety in the
workplace, including current OSHA rules on record keeping.
Question 17. While you served at the Department of Labor, the
Department rescinded a rule requiring Federal contractors to disclose
Fair Labor Standards Act violations and encouraging contractors to
follow labor law. Do you maintain support for Federal contractors not
having to disclose these violations?
Answer 17. The rule you mentioned was subject to a joint resolution
of disapproval under Congressional Review Act, which was passed by both
chambers and signed into law by the President. The Department fulfilled
its obligations under the Congressional Review Act and rescinded the
rule, in compliance with that intent of Congress. As I have throughout
my career, I will always obey the lawful decisions made by Congress.
National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) and Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission (EEOC)
Question 18. President Trump recently illegally fired NLRB Board
Member Gwynne Wilcox in violation of the National Labor Relations Act.
Do you believe that this firing was illegal?
Answer 18. I respect the authority of the President to oversee the
Executive Branch and make decisions related to personnel.
Question 19. Do you believe the NLRB should exist as an independent
agency?
Answer 19. The National Labor Relations Board plays a critical role
in the protection of employment rights. I respect the authority of the
President to oversee the Executive Branch. If confirmed, I will ensure
the Department of Labor fulfills its mission to the American worker.
Question 20. President Trump recently fired EEOC Commissioners
Charlotte Burrows and Jocelyn Samuels. Do you believe that this firing
was illegal or unconstitutional?
Answer 20. I respect the authority of the President to oversee the
Executive Branch and make decisions related to personnel.
Question 21. Do you believe the EEOC should exist as an independent
agency?
Answer 21. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission plays a
critical role in the protection of employment rights. I respect the
authority of the President to oversee the Executive Branch. If
confirmed, I will ensure the Department of Labor fulfills its mission
to the American worker.
DOL Good Jobs Initiative
Question 22. The Good Jobs Initiative facilitated partnerships
between DOL and other Federal agencies to ensure Federal infrastructure
investments created good jobs. Do you support the Good Jobs Initiative?
Answer 22. If confirmed, I will commit to working with the experts
at the Department to learn about all the workforce programs at the
Department and ensure those programs are in line with the America First
policy agenda.
Question 23. If confirmed, what will you do to ensure DOL is
working with other Federal agencies to ensure they prioritize the
creation of safe, high-quality jobs in grant making and procurement
processes?
Answer 23. If confirmed, I will ensure the Department works
collaboratively with other agencies to provide guidance and technical
assistance on the creation of safe, high-quality jobs so all Americans
have a pathway to achieve the American dream.
Question 24. DOL has served as an advisor to the Department of
Commerce, Department of Energy, Department of Transportation, EPA and
other Federal agencies to ensure projects funded through the CHIPS and
Science Act, Inflation Reduction Act, and Bipartisan Infrastructure Law
uphold strong labor standards and create good-paying jobs. However,
some projects funding has been halted. If confirmed, what will you do
to ensure already funded projects continue?
Answer 24. If confirmed, I look forward to working with the experts
at the Department to review all projects and ensure those projects
align with the America First policy agenda.
Artificial Intelligence
Question 25. Do you believe that bias and discriminatory artificial
intelligence is a problem?
Answer 25. I recognize that despite the promise artificial
intelligence offers to improve the lives of workers and employers, it
can lead to unlawful discrimination if used improperly in the hiring
process. When I served on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission,
I worked to educate employers about these risks, in order to help them
comply with civil rights laws and prevent discrimination. I hope the
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission continues to give employers
guidance on the proper use of artificial intelligence in hiring and
other human resource processes. If confirmed, I will be the Deputy
Secretary of Labor, so it will not be my duty to enforce laws solely
under the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's remit.
Question 26. Employers are increasingly relying on artificial
intelligence (AI) in the selection and management of employees.
However, AI systems have been proven to unlawfully discriminate against
employees and prospective employees, including on the basis of race,
gender, age, and disability status. Do you support ensuring that
artificial intelligence products utilized by employers are not
discriminatory or biased?
Answer 26. I recognize that despite the promise artificial
intelligence offers to improve the lives of workers and employers, it
can lead to unlawful discrimination if used improperly in the hiring
process. When I served on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission,
I worked to educate employers about these risks, in order to help them
comply with civil rights laws and prevent discrimination. I hope the
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission continues to give employers
guidance on the proper use of artificial intelligence in hiring and
other human resource processes. If confirmed, I will be the Deputy
Secretary of Labor, so it will not be my duty to enforce laws solely
under the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's remit.
Question 27. What steps would you take to protect workers from the
discriminatory impacts of AI related to the hiring and management or
workers?
Answer 27. I certainly recognize the concerns surrounding the need
to protect workers from the potentially discriminatory impact of
artificial intelligence related to the hiring and management of
workers. I previously wrote three law review articles on this topic,
which contain hundreds of pages of guidance employers can use to
protect applicant and employees from unlawful discrimination by
artificial intelligence. If confirmed, I would serve as the Deputy
Secretary of Labor, so it will not be my duty to enforce laws solely
under the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's remit.
Question 28. If confirmed, how do you plan to address the increase
of AI-enabled worker surveillance?
Answer 28. I certainly recognize the concerns surrounding the need
to protect workers from the potentially discriminatory impact of
artificial intelligence related to the hiring and management of
workers. I previously wrote three law review articles on this topic,
which contain hundreds of pages of guidance employers can use to
protect applicant and employees from unlawful discrimination by
artificial intelligence. If confirmed, I would serve as the Deputy
Secretary of Labor, so it will not be my duty to enforce laws solely
under the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's remit.
Question 29. Should employers be required to notify employees, or
potential employees, about the use of AI in the workplace related to
the management and evaluation of workers?
Answer 29. During my tenure at the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, I emphasized the challenges that artificial intelligence
may present to the enforcement of civil rights laws related to the
hiring process. If confirmed, I would serve as the Deputy Secretary of
Labor, so it will not be my duty to enforce laws solely under the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission's remit.
Question 30. Do you believe that companies have an obligation to
test, address, or measure algorithms before deployment in order to
determine whether it discriminates or is biased against protected
characteristics?
Answer 30. During my tenure at the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, I emphasized the challenges that artificial intelligence
may present to the enforcement of civil rights laws related to the
hiring process. If confirmed, I would serve as the Deputy Secretary of
Labor, so it will not be my duty to enforce laws solely under the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission's remit.
Question 31. Do you believe that companies have an obligation to
monitor algorithms after deployment in order to determine whether it
discriminates or is biased against protected characteristics?
Answer 31. During my tenure at the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, I emphasized the challenges that artificial intelligence
may present to the enforcement of civil rights laws related to the
hiring process. If confirmed, I would serve as the Deputy Secretary of
Labor, so it will not be my duty to enforce laws solely under the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission's remit.
Question 32. What guardrails should there be for the Federal
Government's use of AI tools and other technologies, especially in the
hiring, management, and firing of Federal workers? What is DOL's role
in the development of such guardrails?
Answer 32. During my tenure at the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, I emphasized the challenges that artificial intelligence
may present to the enforcement of civil rights laws related to the
hiring process. If confirmed, I would serve as the Deputy Secretary of
Labor, so I would not have direct control over executive branch human
resource policy.
Question 33. There are reports that artificial intelligence and
other technologies are being developed in order to determine which
Federal workers should be laid off. In your confirmation hearing you
discussed the importance of increasing transparency of AI usage in
order to ensure the tools are not discriminatory. Do you support the
Federal Government increasing transparency around the use and
development of these technologies, especially to ensure these
technologies are not discriminatory or biased?
Answer 33. During my tenure at the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission, I emphasized the challenges that artificial intelligence
may present to the enforcement of civil rights laws related to the
hiring process. If confirmed, I will work with the appropriate agencies
and staff at the Department to provide technical assistance to Congress
as it considers measures related to transparency in the development of
human resources-related artificial intelligence systems.
DOL Rulemaking
Question 34. In 2024, the Department of Labor finalized the
Employee or Independent Contractor Classification Under the Fair Labor
Standards Act regulation which revised the Department's criteria for
classifying workers as independent contractors.
(a). If confirmed, do you commit to enforcing the regulation as
written?
(b). If confirmed, will you seek to change this regulation?
Answer 34(a)--(b). I believe that it is important in our modern
economy to allow workers to have the flexibility to be in business for
themselves--including through the independent contractor model. I
understand that the rule you reference is in litigation. If confirmed,
I will commit to carefully reviewing all regulations under the
Department's jurisdiction and working with my colleagues in the
Solicitor's Office and at the Department of Justice as appropriate on
regulatory litigation. Apart from this litigation, if confirmed, I will
consult with the experts at the Department as well as the Administrator
of the Wage and Hour Division to determine the Department's course of
action with respect to this regulation.
Question 35. In 2021, the Department of Labor finalized the
Rescission of Joint Employer Status Under the Fair Labor Standards Act
rule to rescind the regulations established in the 2020 Joint Employer
Rule.
(a). If confirmed, do you commit to enforcing the regulation as
written?
(b). If confirmed, will you seek to change this regulation?
Answer 35(a)--(b). The Department of Labor has an important role in
ensuring that employers receive clear guidance on their obligations and
potential liability. If confirmed, I look forward to being briefed on
this matter by the experts at the Department. I fully support policies
that help create and protect small businesses.
Question 36. In 2024, the Department of Labor finalized the
Retirement Security Rule and Amendments to Class Prohibited Transaction
Exemptions for Investment Advice Fiduciaries regulation to define
investment advice fiduciaries under the Employment Retirement Income
Security Act (ERISA).
(a). If confirmed, do you commit to enforcing the regulation as
written?
(b). If confirmed, will you seek to change this regulation?
Answer 36(a)--(b). I understand that this rule is currently the
subject of ongoing litigation. If confirmed, I look forward to being
briefed on this matter and will commit to work closely with my
colleagues at the Department of Labor and at the Department of Justice.
More generally, the Department of Labor plays a critical role in
protecting the retirement benefits that Americans have earned. Workers
should have access to sound financial advice, and the law requires
retirement plan fiduciaries to act in the best interest of plan
participants and beneficiaries. The retirement system needs to work for
workers, retirees, retirement plan sponsors, plan fiduciaries, and
service-providers. If confirmed, I look forward to consulting with all
stakeholders in a transparent manner and receiving feedback in
determining whether and how the system can be improved.
Question 37. In 2024, the Department of Labor announced a proposed
rule to protect indoor and outdoor workers from extreme heat.
(a). If confirmed, do you commit to enforcing the regulation as
written?
Answer 37--(a). I am committed to the Occupational Safety and
Health Administration's mission of ensuring that employees have safe
and healthful work environments. I also recognize the importance of
ensuring workers are safe in high-heat environments. As with many other
pending regulations, this is subject to President Trump's regulatory
freeze Executive Order. If confirmed, I will work with the experts at
the Department, stakeholders, and the public when reviewing any worker
safety regulations. My goal will be to uphold the highest standards of
occupational safety, ensuring that rules prioritize the well-being of
workers while being clear, practical, and achievable for employers.
This approach will also align with the President's America First
Agenda, supporting both worker protection and a strong, resilient
American workforce.
Question 38. In 2024, the Department of Labor finalized the
Defining and Delimiting the Exemptions for Executive, Administrative,
Professional, Outside Sales, and Computer Employees regulation to raise
the salary eligible for overtime benefits of employees in certain
sectors.
(a). If confirmed, do you commit to continuing to pursue the
appeal of the November 15, 2024 Eastern District of Texas?
(b). If confirmed, will you seek to change this regulation?
Answer 38(a)--(b). I understand that this rule is in litigation. If
confirmed, I will commit to carefully reviewing all regulations under
the Department's jurisdiction and working with my colleagues in the
Solicitor's Office and at the Department of Justice as appropriate on
regulatory litigation.
Tribal, Indian, and Native Issues
Question 39. Do you believe Tribal, Indian, and Native career
training and workforce placement is DEI?
Answer 39. Discrimination against any person is wrong. If
confirmed, I look forward to working with the Employment and Training
Administration staff to discuss career training and workforce placement
efforts at the Department and how we can best expand workforce
opportunities for all American workers.
Question 40. Do you believe that the Department of Labor shares in
the Federal trust responsibility?
Answer 40. The Federal trust responsibility requires the Federal
Government to respect tribal rights, which may include treaties between
the Federal Government and various tribal nations. If confirmed, I will
work with experts at the Department to identify how the Department is
meeting its Federal trust obligations.
senator blunt rochester
Question 1. As I am sure you are aware, tens of thousands of
Federal workers have been fired by this Administration over the past
couple of weeks. Among these workers are thousands of civil servants at
the Department of Veterans Affairs who help make sure our veterans are
taken care of, thousands of civil servants who protect public health at
HHS, thousands of employees at the Department of Agriculture, including
some who were helping respond to the ongoing bird flu outbreak, and
more. If confirmed, you will be helping run the Department that is
responsible for ensuring protections for workers and overseeing
unemployment assistance.
(a). Do you think Federal workers have been treated fairly over
the last few weeks?
(b). How will you advise the Secretary and the Department best
support hundreds of thousands of newly unemployed Americans?
(c). In the week since your hearing, have you, in your position
as an advisor at the Department of Labor, learned how many
workers have been fired from DOL?
Answer 1(a)--(c). If confirmed, I am committed to working with the
Secretary of Labor and Departmental officials to analyze all staffing
and workforce decisions at the Department of Labor to ensure all
American workers are protected in the workforce. The Department of
Labor's Office of the Assistant Secretary for Management is responsible
for all human resource decisions at the Department. I have full faith
and confidence that the staff in this office is complying with all
applicable laws while reviewing Executive Orders and the Office of
Personnel Management guidance.
Question 2. I have seen recent reports of workers at the Department
of Education who were fired. These workers shared that their paperwork
was dated incorrectly, which prevented them from applying for
unemployment.
(a). Do you think every Federal worker who has been fired in
the past few weeks due to probationary status should be able to
get unemployment assistance?
Answer 2--(a). If confirmed, I am committed to working with the
Secretary of Labor and Departmental officials to analyze all staffing
and workforce decisions at the Department of Labor to ensure all
American workers are protected in the workforce. The Department of
Labor's Office of the Assistant Secretary for Management is responsible
for all human resource decisions at the Department. I have full faith
and confidence that the staff in this office is complying with all
applicable laws while reviewing Executive Orders and the Office of
Personnel Management guidance.
Question 3. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration
enforces all 25 whistleblower statutes, not just for worker safety, but
for food safety, transportation safety, tax fraud, and more.
(a). Do you commit to supporting OSHA's protection of whistle
blowers?
(b). Will you defend against major cuts to the OSHA budget?
Answer 3(a)--(b). The Occupational Safety and Health Administration
plays a critical role in ensuring that America's workers have safe and
healthful working conditions and are free from unlawful retaliation.
The whistleblower laws enforced by OSHA protect employees who report
violations of laws in the workplace and make the public safer. If
confirmed, I will support and enforce all laws, including the
whistleblower laws that protect American workers.
The Department will leverage its resources to effectively fulfill
its mission. While the President proposes the budget, it is ultimately
up to Congress to determine funding. I am committed to supporting the
President in developing budget proposals that prioritize the protection
of American workers, and I will ensure that any resources allocated are
used efficiently and responsibly.
Question 4. As part of DOL's work enforcing whistleblower
protections, OSHA receives confidential and sensitive information from
workers speaking out.
1. Do you think DOGE should be able to access this information?
2. Do you think this information should be able to leave DOL?
3. What will you do to make sure this information is secure,
not used incorrectly, or used to retaliate against workers?
Answer 4(1)--(3). I understand the Department is currently in
litigation related to this issue and is being represented by the
Department of Justice.
Generally speaking, I am committed to upholding laws regarding the
rights of workers to have a workplace free of retaliation under the
whistleblower provisions of the laws established by Congress and
enforced by the Department.
Question 5. While you were at EEOC, you focused a lot of your
attention on AI. This is a topic I have been very interested in. In the
House, I led a bipartisan Future of Work Caucus and the impact of
technology on workers and hiring practices came up often.
1. What role do you see for the Department of Labor regarding
AI?
2. Do you think the Department has adequate data on the impact
of technologies, like AI, on the workforce?
Answer 5(1)--(2). If confirmed, I look forward to having the
opportunity to further explore how various Departmental program offices
can help provide guidance to employees and employers on the impact of
artificial intelligence in the workplace.
Question 6. According to Census data, women account for 50.5
percent of the population and 47 percent of the workforce?
1. Do you consider research and efforts to understand and
reduce barriers for women in the workplace to be ``DEI?''
2. If confirmed, would you advocate to continue the
Department's efforts to better understand and tackle challenges
facing women in the workforce?
Answer 6(1)--(2). Discrimination against any person, including
women, in the workforce is unlawful. If confirmed, I will commit to
working with the staff at the Department to better understand and
tackle challenges facing all American workers in the workforce,
including women.
Question 7. The Department of Labor is tasked with ensuring we have
a skilled workforce that is prepared for existing and future
industries. Through programs like the Strengthening Community College
Training Grants (SCCTG), the Federal Government has supported 207
colleges across 35 states.
1. As Deputy Secretary will you support programs like SCCTG?
2. What role do you see for the Department in creating more
opportunities for upskilling and workforce preparedness?
Answer 7(1)--(2). Enhancing workforce training and upskilling
programs, including through community colleges, is a critical part of
President Trump's agenda in putting the American worker first. If
confirmed, I commit to working with Congress and external stakeholders
to identify the various ways in which the Department can best support
the needs of local employers.
Question 8. NLRB Board Member Gwynne Wilcox was recently fired by
President Trump illegally.
1. Do you support the reinstatement of NLRB Board Member Gwynne
Wilcox?
2. You are the former Commissioner of an independent agency,
the EEOC. Do you believe in the value of the independence of
agencies like EEOC and NLRB?
3. Are you concerned by recent efforts by this Administration
to rollback the independence of agencies, including the NLRB?
Answer 8(1)--(3). I respect the authority of the President to
oversee the Executive Branch and make decisions related to personnel.
The National Labor Relations Board and the Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission play critical roles in the protection of
employment rights. I respect the authority of the President to oversee
the executive branch. If confirmed, I will ensure the Department of
Labor fulfills its mission to the American worker.
senator alsobrooks
Workers' Rights and Collective Bargaining
President Trump has undermined workers' rights and collective
bargaining since taking office in 2025. One of his first executive
orders nullified collective bargaining agreements finalized in the last
month of the Biden administration, throwing Federal labor contracts
into chaos. His administration has also pushed mass terminations of
Federal employees, targeting those with less than 2 years of service.
Question 1. Do you believe that Federal employees, including those
at the Department of Labor (DOL), have the right to organize and
collectively bargain without fear of retaliation?
Answer 1. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the Department's
human resources experts, along with any directives from the White
House, when making employment-related decisions.
Question 2. Will you commit to ensuring that no Federal worker
loses their union membership or dues deductions due to administrative
actions under your leadership?
Answer 2. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the Department's
human resources experts, along with any directives from the White
House, when making employment-related decisions.
Question 3. Will you commit to honoring all legally binding
collective bargaining agreements (CBAs) signed by Federal agencies and
labor unions?
Answer 3. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the
Department's human resources experts, along with any directives from
the White House, when making employment-related decisions.
Question 4. Will you commit to following the collective bargaining
agreement with employees at DOL?
Answer 4. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the Department's
human resources experts, along with any directives from the White
House, when making employment-related decisions.
Question 5. Several states have passed laws restricting public-
sector unions' ability to bargain collectively. Do you support the
Federal Government's role in protecting public employees' right to
organize?
Answer 5. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the Department's
human resources experts, along with any directives from the White
House, when making employment-related decisions.
Question 6. Many workers rely on pension plans negotiated through
collective bargaining. Will you commit to protecting pension benefits
and opposing any attempts to cut Federal support for multiemployer
pension plans?
Answer 6. If confirmed, I will follow the law and work with the
experts at the Department, including the Office of the Solicitor, to
understand the collective bargaining process at the Department and the
terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreements in place.
I commit to working with the Solicitor's Office and the Department's
human resources experts, along with any directives from the White
House, when making employment-related decisions.
Question 7. How will you work to collaborate in good faith with the
unions at DOL?
Answer 7. Throughout my career, I have consistently worked in good
faith with all stakeholders to identify and bridge gaps in the
employment space. If confirmed, I will continue to do so. I will follow
the law and work with the experts at the Department, including the
Office of the Solicitor, to understand the collective bargaining
process at the Department and the terms and conditions of the
collective bargaining agreements in place. I commit to working with the
Solicitor's Office and the Department's human resources experts, along
with any directives from the White House, when making employment-
related decisions.
Question 8. Will you ensure merit-based hiring and promotions?
Answer 8. I am committed to following the law, including President
Trump's Executive Orders. If confirmed, I will work to ensure that the
Department promotes individual initiative, excellence, and hard work
and terminates all discriminatory and illegal preferences, mandates,
policies, programs, activities, guidance, regulations, and
requirements.
Question 9. Do you agree to continue a robust Labor Management
Forum?
Answer 9. If confirmed, I commit to working with the Department's
experts, including the Office of the Solicitor, with respect to any
management decisions concerning the Department's workforce.
Wrongful Terminations
Question 10. Thousands of Federal employees have been fired across
the government over the past few weeks--supposedly because of their
probationary status. Yet many were wrongfully cited for poor
performance as part of their termination notices, despite documented
records of strong performance--raising questions about what benefits
they will be eligible to receive.
(a). Recent Federal labor actions have resulted in mass layoffs
of workers, often with little notice. Will you commit to
ensuring that all layoffs follow proper legal procedures and
that affected employees receive due process?
(b). Will you commit to rescinding the terminations of veterans
that were fired at the Department?
Answer 10(a)--(b). If confirmed, I am committed to working with the
Secretary of Labor and Departmental officials to analyze all staffing
and workforce decisions at the Department of Labor to ensure all
American workers are protected in the workforce. The Department of
Labor's Office of the Assistant Secretary for Management is responsible
for all human resource decisions at the Department. I have full faith
and confidence that the staff in this office is complying with all
applicable laws while reviewing Executive Orders and the Office of
Personnel Management guidance.
Weekly Accomplishments
Question 11. Department of Labor civil servants received the same
e-mail as others across government over the weekend, telling them to
submit five bullet points on the work they submitted the last week,
with Elon Musk claiming that a failure to respond would be considered a
resignation. This directive caused chaos, confusion and fear for
Department employees. DOL staff apparently received mixed messages from
their supervisors on how to respond. Some managers told staff that the
choice to respond was at their discretion.
(a). Who was involved in the decisions at the Department
regarding the guidance given to Department employees? Were you
involved?
(b). Given the issues with conflicting guidance, can you commit
that no one at the Department will lose their job due to
perceived non-compliance with Musk's order?
(c). Will you commit to protecting staff who are on leave and
were unable to respond to this Elon Musk order from
termination?
Answer 11(a)--(c). I understand and respect that the Office of
Personnel Management is responsible for providing direction to
Executive Branch employees, including those at the Department of Labor.
Terminations
Question 12. You said in an interview with Committee staff that you
were ``committed to defending existing staff levels.''
(a). What have you specifically done to make a case for the
probationary staffers that have been terminated at the
Department?
(b). The Office of Disability Employment Policy helps increase
workplace opportunities for people with disabilities. Workers
here were fired as well. How do you think these firings better
help workers with disabilities?
(c). Employees at the Women's Bureau, the Mine Safety and
Health Administration, and Bureau of International Labor
Affairs--all saw purges. Will these mass firings help increase
worker safety in mines? Or prevent pregnancy discrimination in
the workplace?
(d). Will you object to additional mass firings at the
Department of Labor?
(e). How will you ensure that the Department has sufficient
staff to meet its mandates, as well as enforce rules and
regulations about retirement plans?
Answer 12(a)--(e). If confirmed, I am committed to working with the
Secretary of Labor and Departmental officials to analyze all staffing
and workforce decisions at the Department of Labor to ensure all
American workers are protected in the workforce. The Department of
Labor's Office of the Assistant Secretary for Management is responsible
for all human resource decisions at the Department. I have full faith
and confidence that the staff in this office is complying with all
applicable laws while reviewing Executive Orders and the Office of
Personnel Management guidance.
Misclassified Termination Notices
Question 13. The first wave of mass firings didn't just impact
probationary employees. In fact, many employees claim that they
received termination notices even though they do not have probationary
status. Others were fired due to ``poor performance,'' even though they
have documented records of strong performance.
(a). How many staff at DOL were given incorrect ``poor
performance'' citations on their termination notices?
(b). How many staffers at DOL were incorrectly classified as
probationary employees are part of DOL's first wave of
terminations?
(c). Will you commit to reinstating employees that were
wrongfully terminated, or were not in the probationary period?
Answer 13(a)--(c). If confirmed, I am committed to working with the
Secretary of Labor and Departmental officials to analyze all staffing
and workforce decisions at the Department of Labor to ensure all
American workers are protected in the workforce. The Department of
Labor's Office of the Assistant Secretary for Management is responsible
for all human resource decisions at the Department. I have full faith
and confidence that the staff in this office is complying with all
applicable laws while reviewing Executive Orders and the Office of
Personnel Management guidance.
Reorganization Plans
Question 14. This week, OMB and OPM asked agencies to submit
``reorganization plans'' in 2 weeks to prepare for mass firings.
Yesterday, OMB and OPM asked agencies to submit ``reorganization
plans'' in 2 weeks to prepare for mass firings.
(a). Who will be on the leadership team putting together the
``mass firing'' and reorganization plan for the Department of
Labor?
(b). How many more employees and services will be cut at the
Department because of this haphazard ``reorganization?''
Answer 14(a)--(b). If confirmed, I am committed to working with the
Secretary of Labor and Departmental officials to analyze all staffing
and workforce decisions at the Department of Labor to ensure all
American workers are protected in the workforce. The Department of
Labor's Office of the Assistant Secretary for Management is responsible
for all human resource decisions at the Department. I have full faith
and confidence that the staff in this office is complying with all
applicable laws while reviewing Executive Orders and the Office of
Personnel Management guidance.
______
[Whereupon, at 11:26 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
[all]