[Senate Hearing 119-22]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 119-22
NOMINATION OF LINDA MCMAHON
TO SERVE AS
SECRETARY OF EDUCATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION,
LABOR, AND PENSIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
EXAMINING THE NOMINATION OF LINDA MCMAHON, OF CONNECTICUT,
TO BE SECRETARY OF EDUCATION
__________
FEBRUARY 13, 2025
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-491 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS
BILL CASSIDY, M.D., Louisiana, Chairman
RAND PAUL, M.D., Kentucky BERNIE SANDERS (I), Vermont,
SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine Ranking Member
LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska PATTY MURRAY, Washington
MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
ROGER MARSHALL, M.D., Kansas CHRISTOPHER MURPHY, Connecticut
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina TIM KAINE, Virginia
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire
TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
JIM BANKS, Indiana ED MARKEY, Massachusetts
JON HUSTED, Ohio ANDY KIM, New Jersey
ASHLEY MOODY, Florida LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
ANGELA ALSOBROOKS, Maryland
Amanda Lincoln, Majority Staff Director
Danielle Janowski, Majority Deputy Staff Director
Warren Gunnels, Minority Staff Director
Zain Rizvi, Minority Deputy Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
STATEMENTS
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2025
Page
Committee Members
Cassidy, Hon. Bill, Chairman, Committee on Health, Education,
Labor, and Pensions, Opening statement......................... 1
Sanders, Hon. Bernie, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from the State
of Vermont, Opening statement.................................. 3
Witness
McMahon, Hon. Linda, Stamford, CT................................ 8
Prepared statement........................................... 9
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL
Statements, articles, publications, letters, etc.
Baldwin, Hon. Tammy:
Research studies of private school vouchers in Louisiana,
Indiana, Ohio, and Washington, DC.......................... 53
Sanders, Hon. Bernie:
Letters Opposing the Nomination of Linda McMahon to serve as
Secretary of Education..................................... 265
Cassidy, Hon. Bill:
Letters Supporting the Nomination of Linda McMahon to serve
as Secretary of Education.................................. 345
NOMINATION OF LINDA MCMAHON
TO SERVE AS
SECRETARY OF EDUCATION
----------
Thursday, February 13, 2025
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in
room 562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bill Cassidy,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Cassidy [presiding], Collins, Murkowski,
Marshall, Scott, Hawley, Tuberville, Banks, Husted, Moody,
Britt, Sanders, Murray, Baldwin, Murphy, Kaine, Hassan,
Hickenlooper, Markey, Kim, Blunt Rochester, and Alsobrooks.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CASSIDY
The Chair. The Senate Committee on Health, Education,
Labor, and Pensions will please come to order. Ms. McMahon, I
appreciate you coming before the Committee today.
You were very successful leading the Small Business
Administration in President Trump's first term and I am glad
the President has given you another opportunity to serve. You
have enormous challenges.
At the K through 12 level, students who were behind before
the pandemic are even further behind now. According to the
latest National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP,
reading scores among fourth and eighth graders declined five
points since the pandemic. In math, fourth grade scores fell by
five points, and eighth grade scores fell by eight points.
The failures of the traditional K through 12 schools are
leading more families to try other education options proven to
help students succeed like charter schools. The Biden-Harris
Department of Education tried to take these options away from
families.
They passed onerous regulations making it harder for
charter schools to apply for Federal grants, impeding their
ability to grow and to serve more children. The Department of--
the Department's bloated bureaucracy failed to improve the
Nation's education system and quite likely made it worse.
There has been a lot of talk about dismantling the
Department of Education, and I am sure that you will be asked
this today. But before we begin, I want to explain what the
Department of Education actually does.
On average, only about 10 percent of public funds that go
toward educating a child comes from the Federal taxpayer. That
is only 10 percent. 90 percent comes from state and local
government.
While the Federal Government accounts for a small minority
of the funding, it is responsible for the vast majority of
bureaucracy and red tape preventing communities from improving
educational success.
I am hearing from schools across the country that they have
stopped going after Federal competitive grant funding because
it is not worth the hoops and red tape the Department of
Education has placed on those dollars.
If schools are not eager to apply for competitive grants to
improve operations, something is wrong and something should
change. It is not only the K through 12 system failing
students. Colleges and universities are not preparing students
to succeed in the modern workforce.
The cost of higher education are quickly outpacing the
value of the degrees students receive. According to a
nonpartisan analysis, 23 percent of bachelor's degree programs
and 43 percent of master's degrees have a negative return on
investment.
Too many students leave college woefully unprepared for the
workforce after being saddled with overwhelming debt they
cannot pay off. Under the last Administration, the Department
of Education's only answer was to transfer hundreds of billions
of dollars, that is hundreds of billions, in student debt from
those who willingly took it on to supposedly advance their
life--they transferred it to Americans who either chose not to
go to college or had already paid their way through school.
To implement these schemes, the Department dramatically
increased the scope and authority of the student loan financing
program, clearly outside of what Congress previously intended.
Your experience overseeing SBA loans will be a great asset as
the Department looks to reform a very broken student loan
program.
We have also seen rampant anti-Semitism on college
campuses, leading to attacks and harassment of Jewish students.
I am pleased to see the Trump administration has already
launched investigations, and I look forward to working with
you, presuming that you are confirmed.
The status quo is not working. The educational system is
failing our children. The Biden-Harris Department of Education
stood in the way of students' success. Transformative change of
the educational establishment is needed.
The Department needs to get out of the way of states and
local communities who are best positioned to actually address
students' needs. We need to empower parents, so they have a
voice in their child's education. This includes increasing
access to school choice, perhaps also called parental choice,
so families can give their child every opportunity to succeed
in the classroom and beyond.
With President Trump in office and Ms. McMahon's
leadership, we have a real opportunity to accomplish this.
Thank you again, Ms. McMahon for coming before this Committee
and continue the discussion on how we can work together to
improve students' success and get our education system back on
track.
With that, I yield to Senator Sanders, the Ranking Member.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SANDERS
Senator Sanders. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mrs.
McMahon, nice to see you again. Let me begin by thanking
teachers all over this country. This is a very difficult time
to be a teacher.
Talking to teachers in Vermont, and I think teachers all
over the country, what they are telling me as they are spending
a lot of their time not only teaching math and English, but
dealing with the emotional needs of kids, because among other
things, our kids are struggling in many, many ways.
It is a tough time to be a teacher, and I want to thank the
teachers very much for the extraordinary work that they are
doing, especially for some of the most vulnerable kids in our
Country.
Way back in 1863, as we recall from our history books,
Abraham Lincoln was in Gettysburg and he looked out on a field
where soldiers by the thousands had just died in the struggle
against slavery and he talked about the need to maintain a
government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
That was a short but very powerful Gettysburg Address. And
I think in this country today, there is a growing fear that
instead of having a government of the people, by the people,
and for the people, we are looking at a government of
billionaires, by billionaires, and for billionaires whose job
is not to improve life for ordinary people, but to make the
people on top even wealthier.
In the midst of massive income and wealth inequality with
three people owning more wealth than the bottom half of
American society, the Republicans in the House yesterday
introduced a budget resolution that would provide massive tax
breaks to the people on top and they would pay for those tax
breaks for billionaires by cutting Medicaid, education, and
programs that working families throughout this country
desperately need. That is exactly the wrong thing to do.
At a time when millions and millions of working families
are struggling, our job is to protect those families and not
worry about the billionaires who have never had it so good. But
it is not just cuts in Medicaid, as devastating as that would
be. We are looking at, if the Republicans get their way,
massive cuts to education.
I should also say that the people who are trying to
privatize Social Security, privatize Medicare, privatize
Medicaid, privatize the Veterans Administration are precisely
the same people who are trying to privatize public education in
America. We must not allow that to happen.
In America, we must not allow our educational system to
become a two tier system, a system which says that if you have
the money, you are going to get help from the Federal
Government, you are going to get a voucher to send your kid to
a school that may cost $50,000, $60,000 a year, while the
public schools will end up being segregated not just by race
but by class.
Most families in America do not have $40,000, $50,000,
$60,000 a year to send their kids to private schools and it is
absurd to provide public money to make that possible. Our job
is not to take away money from public schools to give it to
private schools. It is to strengthen public education in
America.
Further, President Trump has talked about abolishing the
Department of Education. Yes, I think everybody on this
Committee wants to see us go after waste and bureaucracy in
every agency of government, but what we must understand is that
when we talk about the Department of Education, they are
providing vital resources for 26 million children in this
country who live in high poverty school districts.
Is it the responsibility of the Federal Government to say
that every kid in America, whether you are poor, middle class,
rich, gets a quality education? It is. And that is what a lot
of what the Department of Education does.
Department of Education provides millions of public school
students who have disabilities, motional problems, physical
problems, provides them with help. It provides Pell grants and
other important financial assistance that over 7 million low
income students need to get a higher education.
The goal is not to abolish the Department of Education. It
is to make it more effective and to make sure that it addresses
the educational needs in this country. Mr. Chairman, in my
view, we need a Secretary of Education who understands that in
the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, we should
have the best educational system on this planet, from childcare
to graduate school.
We need a Secretary of Education who understands that if we
are going to attract the best and the brightest to the teaching
profession, you know what? We have to pay teachers the kinds of
salaries that they deserve, which is why I have introduced
legislation that says no teacher in America should earn less
than $60,000 a year.
We need a Secretary of Education who understands that
schools do not end at 2.30 p.m., at 3.00 p.m.. We need strong
afterschool programs. We need strong summer programs. We need a
Secretary of Education who understands that we have got to
invest in mental health.
We need a Secretary of Education who understands that we
have got to fully fund the Individuals with Disabilities
Education Act. So there are a lot of questions I have for Mrs.
McMahon. I very much appreciate her being here and look forward
to the discussion we will have. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair. Thank you, Senator Sanders.
Now to introduce Ms. McMahon, we will start with Senator
Scott.
Senator Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Ranking
Member. Thank you, Committee Members for allowing me to have an
opportunity to talk about my good friend Linda McMahon.
I will say that one of the things I love about the Ranking
Member is his passion about the things he cares deeply about.
He and I don't agree on the conclusions or the solutions, but I
do believe that he is a thoughtful person who cares about the
issues, and I hope that doesn't hurt your reelection bid.
[Laughter.]
Senator Scott. Let me say this, I am not a billionaire.
Never have been. Likely never will be. But I am a kid who grew
up in a single parent household mired in poverty whose mother
worked two jobs trying to keep the lights on. I went to four
different elementary schools by the fourth grade.
When I think about the issue of education, I think about
how in the world did we ever get to a meritocracy where the
vast majority of the kids today are going to segregated schools
that are failing those kids. 13 schools in Maryland where the
average kid--no, I am sorry, 99 percent of the kids cannot
perform at grade level.
I think about Chicago on the South side, where I spent a
lot of time, where 95 percent of the kids cannot perform at
grade level. I think about Charleston, South Carolina, my
hometown, where 60 plus percent of African American males don't
go to college.
I think about the quagmire pit of failure that is
consistently the case in inner city schools across America. You
talk about the resegregation of America's public schools. It
has already happened. It is happening right now. Our public
education spends $850 billion to disappoint families, millions
of families, across this country.
10 percent of the resources come from the Federal
Government, and yet 80 to 90 percent of all the rules that
suppress performance come from Washington. The average employee
at the Department of Education--these numbers are a few years
ago, and these, unfortunately, aren't part of my speech.
Bernie changed my speech for me. It is about $106,000 where
the average teacher makes $55,000. Those numbers are four, 5
years old. But here is my point. My point is the simple point.
I am a guy who understands the weight of a poor education
system and the benefit of a good education system because I
have experienced both.
I chose to introduce Linda not because I have an affinity
for billionaires--though I might now, actually. Because I have
a passion for quality that changes the trajectory of poor kids'
lives permanently. I can't think of a more important civil
rights issue today than public education and the education of
our kids.
I can't think of a better person to take on that challenge
than someone that I have confidence when she was the
Administrator of the SBA. I can't think of someone better to
take on this challenge than someone that took a regional
company, WWE, and made it into the global powerhouse that it is
today--than the Co-Founder, Chief Executive, Linda McMahon.
I can't think of someone better to do the job than someone
who served on our own State Board of Education, who was a
trustee at Sacred Heart University, and who led the policy
initiatives at the America First Policy Institute.
That would be Linda McMahon. I can tell you that there are
a lot of questions I would like to answer, but I don't have
time. But I can tell you this, for the poorest kids in our
Country, disillusioned about the American dream, the answers
they are looking for rarely come from Washington.
With all of our good intentions, the Department of
Education has simply failed the poorest kids in the United
States of America, the greatest nation on the planet. To turn
that around, we need someone who has already succeeded in
business and in government. And let me just close with this.
The Department of Education doesn't educate kids. It is a
Federal agency. Local communities and local teachers educate
kids. Our Department of Education is a Federal behemoth that
needs to focus on getting more money in the hands of more
students so that they have a better chance.
Yes, I do believe that competition makes your quality go up
and your cost go down. Charter schools prove that. Private
schools prove that. And finally, Pell Grants. Pell Grants take
public dollars to private schools. Unfortunately for black kids
today, the vast majority won't have a Pell Grant.
Why? Because if you don't graduate from high school, if you
don't have proficiency in reading, math, and Science, the
likelihood of you going to college is zero. Let's improve our K
through 12 system so that more of America's poor, rural kids
and inner city kids both have the experience I had of realizing
their version of the American dream.
The Chair. Thank you, Senator Scott. Very powerful.
Senator Britt.
Senator Britt. Well, that was amazing. Thank you. My
colleague nailed it. Chair Cassidy, Ranking Member Sanders, and
Members of this Committee, I am honored to join you today to
introduce President Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education,
my friend Linda McMahon.
It is clear that our current education system isn't
working. We have the status quo and that is actually failing
our kids. As you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, the latest NAEP
scores show that students' reading and math scores are down in
almost every single state, to the point where only 30 percent
of eighth graders are meeting reading proficiency levels.
The status quo in education just hasn't failed students. It
has failed parents just like me. And very respectfully, Mr.
Ranking Member, the America that you just described, the one
that you are fearful will be created, it already exists.
Our students deserve better. Our parents deserve better. We
have to do something different in order to achieve a different
result. For far too long, the Department of Education has
catered to far left bureaucrats at the expense of moms and
dads.
It has pushed for school closures, removed parental rights
from the equation, promoted radical ideologies in the
classroom, and supported allowing men and boys to play in women
and girls sports. Enough is enough.
We need a change agent at the Department of Education, and
that change agent is Linda McMahon. She is the perfect antidote
to what is wrong with education in this country. Linda has an
immensely successful track record as a business executive, as a
leader of a government agency, and at the America First
policy--as an America First policy advocate.
She is not just an overwhelmingly qualified nominee for
Secretary of Education, but a nominee who can make a real
difference at the Department that sorely needs it. She is also
a grandmother of six with a personal stake in the quality of
our education system.
She understands how important it is that our kids learn
what they are supposed to and how important it is for parents
to be empowered. I am right there with her. And that is not the
only mission that Linda will pursue at the Secretary of
Education--as the Secretary.
Attending a 4-year college or university is the right path
for many Americans, but it is not the only one available to
graduating high schoolers and Linda will ensure that students
know that.
Linda led efforts to empower the American worker at AFPI.
And I am confident that she will make aligning our education
system and our workforce systems a priority at the Department
of Education.
That means strengthening 21st century skills training and
job preparedness, bridging the gap between technical school
programs and industries, and expanding apprenticeships and
credentialing programs.
Linda McMahon is someone who knows how to reform our
education system, so it actually prepares our kids for the
future, while also empowering parents to make decisions that
affect their children's lives. She has the experience as an
executive. She already demonstrated her immense ability to get
the government out of the way as head of the Small Business
Administration.
She knows both K-12 and higher education, as my
distinguished colleague Senator Scott said, in serving on the
Connecticut State Board of Education and the Sacred Heart
University Board. She was on that since 2004.
Her confirmation as Secretary of Education will be a
monumental step toward preserving the American dream and making
a bright future possible for the next generation of Americans.
Let's put parents in the driver's seat.
Let's return to the fundamentals of the classroom learning
and teach kids the skills they need to actually achieve their
goals. Let's put education in the hands of states, not
unaccountable Federal bureaucrats.
For our kids' sake, let's confirm my friend, Linda McMahon.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair. Thank you, Senator Britt. Ms. McMahon, now for
your opening statement. And you are welcome to introduce your
guest.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you very much, Chairman Cassidy. Yes, I
would like to introduce my daughter, Stephanie McMahon, Paul
Levesque, her husband, and my son, Shane McMahon. I am so happy
to have them here and many friends from--have come from far
places, so I welcome having them here today and appreciate that
they are here.
[Background demonstrators.]
Ms. McMahon. Thank you, Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member
Sanders, and distinguished Members of the Committee. I am
honored to have your consideration to serve as the Secretary of
the Department of Education. And I would like to thank both
Senator Scott and Britt for their introductions.
The Chair. Members of the audience are reminded that
disruptions will not be permitted while the Committee----
[technical problems]
We ask you to respect that, please.
STATEMENT OF LINDA MCMAHON TO SERVE AS SECRETARY OF EDUCATION
Ms. McMahon. Certainly. And I would like to thank both
Senator Scott and Britt for their introductions, and for the
opportunity to welcome my friends and family. Thank you all so
much for being here with me today.
I would also like to thank President Trump for his
confidence in me to lead a Department whose mission and
authority were a special focus of his campaign. He pledged to
make American education the best in the world, return education
to the states where it belongs, and free American students from
the education bureaucracy through school choice.
November proved that Americans overwhelmingly support the
President's vision, and I am ready to enact it. Education is
the issue that determines our national success and prepares
American workers to win the future.
I have been passionate about education since my earliest
college days when I studied to earn a teaching certificate.
This has continued through my business career as a Connecticut
State Board of Education member, as a university trustee, and
as the Chair of the America First Policy Institute, which
advocates for workforce development, parental choice and
accountability in higher education.
I am also a mother and a grandmother, and I join millions
of American parents who want better schools for our kids and
grandkids. The legacy of our Nation's leadership in education
is one that every person in this room embraces with pride.
Unfortunately, many Americans today are experiencing a system
in decline.
The latest scores from the Nation's report card show
achievement in K through 12 math and reading at their lowest
level in years. More than two-thirds of public colleges are
beset by violent crime on campuses every year. And most
tragically, students' suicide rates have dramatically increased
over the last two decades.
We can do better. We can do better for the elementary and
junior high school student by teaching basic reading and
mathematics, for the college freshmen facing censorship or
antisemitism on campus, and for parents and grandparents who
worry that their children and grandchildren are no longer
taught American values and true history.
In many cases, our wounds are caused by the excessive
consolidation of power in our Federal education establishment.
So what is the remedy? Fund education freedom, not government
run systems. Listen to parents, not politicians.
Build up careers, not college debt. Empower states, not
special interests. Invest in teachers, not Washington
bureaucrats. If confirmed as Secretary, I will work with
Congress to reorient the Department toward helping educators,
not controlling them.
My experience as a business owner and leader of the Small
Business Administration, as a public servant in the State of
Connecticut, and more than a decade of service as a college
trustee has taught me to put parents, teachers, and students,
not bureaucracy, first.
Outstanding teachers are tired of political ideology and
their curriculum and red tape on their desks, and that is why
school choice is a growing movement across the Nation. It
offers teachers and parents an alternative to classrooms that
are micromanaged from Washington, DC.
We should also emphasize career focused education,
especially in cutting edge STEM fields where American companies
need high skill employees. Our workers deserve more post-
secondary pathways, career aligned programs, apprenticeships,
and on the job learning. The jobs in tech, skill trades, and
health care for non-college degree holders.
Those who do it in college deserve transparent costs and
courses of study aligned to workforce demand. The United States
is the world leader by far in emerging technologies like AI and
blockchain, and we need to invest in American students who want
to become tech pioneers.
We should encourage innovative new institutions, develop
smart accountability systems, and tear down barriers to entry
so that students have real choice, and universities are not
saddling future families with insurmountable debt.
We must protect all students from discrimination and
harassment. And if I am confirmed, the Department will not
stand idly by while Jewish students are attacked and
discriminated against. It will stop forcing schools to let boys
and men into female sports and spaces.
It will protect the rights of parents to direct the moral
education of their children. The opportunity before us these
next 4 years is momentous. I look forward to working with the
Committee, our Nation's parents, teachers and students, and
education leaders from all political perspectives to build a
better future for every American learner.
Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you
today, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. McMahon follows.]
prepared statement of linda mcmahon
Thank you, Chairman Cassidy, Ranking Member Sanders, and the
distinguished Members of the Committee. I'm honored to have your
consideration to serve as the Secretary of the Department of Education.
I would like to thank both Senators Scott and Britt for their
introductions, and for the opportunity to welcome my friends and
family--thank you all so much for being here today.
I would also like to thank President Trump for his confidence in me
to lead a Department whose mission and authority were a special focus
of his campaign. He pledged to make American education the best in the
world, return education to the states where it belongs, and free
American students from the education bureaucracy through school choice.
November proved that Americans overwhelmingly support the President's
vision--and I am ready to enact it.
Education is the issue that determines our national success and
prepares American workers to win the future. I've been passionate about
education since my earliest college days, when I studied to earn a
teaching credential. This has continued through my business career as a
Connecticut State board of education member, as a university trustee,
and as the chair of the America First Policy Institute, which advocates
for workforce development, parental choice, and accountability in
higher education. Most importantly, I'm also a mother and grandmother--
and I join millions of American parents who want better schools for our
kids and grandkids.
The legacy of our Nation's leadership in education is one that
every person in this room embraces with pride.
Unfortunately, many Americans today are experiencing a system in
decline.
The latest scores from the Nation's Report Card show achievement in
K12 math and reading at their lowest levels since 1971, the first year
of testing. More than two thirds of public colleges are beset by
violent crime on campus every year. And most tragically, student
suicide rates have dramatically increased over the last two decades.
We can do better:
For the elementary and junior high student by teaching basic
reading and mathematics.
For the college freshman facing censorship or antisemitism on
campus.
For parents and grandparents who worry that their children and
grandchildren are no longer taught American values and true
history.
In many cases, our wounds are caused by the excessive
consolidation of power in our Federal education establishment.
The remedy?
Fund education freedom, not government-run systems.
Listen to parents, not politicians.
Build up careers, not college debt.
Empower states, not special interests.
Invest in teachers, not Washington bureaucrats.
If confirmed as Secretary, I will work with Congress to reorient
the Department toward helping educators, not controlling them.
My experience as a business owner and leader of the Small Business
Administration, as a public servant in the State of Connecticut, and
more than a decade of service as a college trustee has taught me to put
parents, teachers, and students, not bureaucracy, first. Outstanding
teachers are tired of political ideology in their curriculum and red
tape on their desks. This is why school choice is a growing movement
across the Nation: it offers teachers and parents an alternative to
classrooms that are micromanaged from Washington, DC.
We should also emphasize career-focused education, especially in
cutting-edge STEM fields where American companies need high-skill
employees. Our workers deserve more post-secondary pathways: career-
aligned programs, apprenticeships and on-the-job learning, and jobs in
tech, skilled trades, and healthcare for non-college degree holders.
Those who do attend college deserve transparent costs and courses
of study aligned to workforce demand. The United States is the world
leader by far in emerging technologies like AI and blockchain--and we
need to invest in American students who want to become tech pioneers.
We should encourage innovative new institutions, develop smart
accountability systems, and tear down barriers to entry so that
students have real choice and universities are not saddling future
families with insurmountable debt.
We must protect all students from discrimination and harassment. If
I am confirmed, the Department will not stand idly by while Jewish
students are attacked and discriminated against. It will stop forcing
schools to let boys and men into female sports and spaces. And it will
protect the rights of parents to direct the moral education of their
children.
The opportunity before us these next 4 years is momentous. I look
forward to working with this Committee, our Nation's parents, teachers,
and students, and education leaders from all political perspectives to
build a better future for every American learner.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I welcome
your questions.
______
The Chair. Thank you very much. I shall begin. Everybody is
rightly focused on the fact that we have a problem with reading
scores, and they have been anchored where they are for quite
some time with an incredibly high percentage of children not
reading at grade level.
The old kind of truism that kids learn to read by grade 3
or 4 and they read to learn thereafter. But they are not
learning to read by grade 3 or 4. So that said, dyslexia,
according to NIH kind of reviewed literature, affects 20
percent of our population.
Those 20 percent learn to read differently, and if their
differences are not acknowledged, then they will be among
those, almost an anchor holding reading scores down. Now, it
would just intuitively make sense to diagnose the child with
dyslexia as early as possible. Most states do not screen.
That said, you can see where I am going with my own
thoughts. But what would be your approach to addressing the
issue of dyslexia, which is frankly ignored? Not in a State
like New Hampshire where Governor Hassan actually put in such
programs, but in other states.
What would be your approach to make sure that the child who
is dyslexic is diagnosed at an early stage and receives the
intervention that she or he would need to receive?
Ms. McMahon. Well, thank you very much, Chairman Cassidy.
And I know this is a very sensitive subject for you, since I
believe it is your son that does have dyslexia, as you and I
discussed when I visited with you in your office.
The Chair. My daughter, but that is Okay.
Ms. McMahon. I am sorry. It is your daughter. But I
certainly very much would like to be sure that we are looking
to diagnose issues like this, like dyslexia early because we
have found that it can be turned around. So I would like to
work with you and understand how we could have a better
approach for that in our school systems.
The Chair. You had mentioned that you would not tolerate
the anti-Semitism that has been on the rise. What steps would
you take to make sure the backlog of anti-Semitism cases at the
Office of Civil Rights is processed and those responsible for
illegal discrimination held accountable?
Ms. McMahon. Senator Kennedy, I think that--Cassidy, I am
sorry. I think that by far what we saw happening on our
campuses was absolutely deplorable. Kids locked in libraries
afraid to come out.
Now, I believe in freedom of speech on campus, open debate,
and we should encourage that, but we cannot allow violence
happening on our campuses. That puts all students in an unsafe
place.
As the--if I were confirmed as the Secretary of Education,
I would want to make sure that the presidents of those
universities and those colleges are taking very strong measures
not to allow this to happen.
They can call in the police. They can do whatever they need
to do to set standards and to make sure those standards are
upheld. We cannot allow that kind of violence to take place on
our college campuses.
The Chair. There is a current backlog in the Office of
Civil Rights within the Department of Education to address
this. Do you have any specific plans about how you could help
them address that backlog?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I would like very much to be confirmed
and to be able to get into the Department and understand that
backlog, to talk to those lawyers who were there. And let's
focus on what we need to do to clear out that backlog, and I
look forward to doing that.
The Chair. As President Trump has reported--is reportedly
drafting an Executive Order requiring the Secretary of
Education to develop a plan for downsizing the Department of
Education and working with Congress to eliminate entirely, yes
or no, do you agree that since the Department was created by
Congress, it would need an act of Congress to actually close
the Department of Education?
Ms. McMahon. Certainly President Trump understands that we
will be working with Congress. We would like to do this right.
We would like to make sure that we are presenting a plan that I
think our Senators could get on board with and our Congress
could get on board with that would have a better functioning
Department of Education. But certainly, it does require
Congressional action.
The Chair. Okay. And in terms of the plans to downsize,
what would be the components of that plan that would not
require Congressional approval?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I do believe, Senator, that there are
Departments of Education that are established by statute. And
in those particular departments, we would have to pay
particular attention too. But long before there was a
Department of Education, we fulfilled the programs of our
educational system.
Are there other areas, other agencies where parts of the
Department of Education could better serve our students and our
parents on a local level? And I am really all for the
President's mission, which is to return education to the
states.
I believe, as he does, that the best education is closest
to the child and certainly from Washington DC.
The Chair. If the Department is downsized, would these
states and localities still receive the Federal funding which
they currently--[technical problems]?
Ms. McMahon. Yes.
The Chair. Okay. With that, I----
Ms. McMahon. It is not the President's goal to defund the
programs. It is only to have it operate more efficiently.
The Chair. With that, I yield to Senator Sanders.
Senator Sanders. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we talk
about education, we are looking at it in a vacuum. We are
talking about the struggles that low income kids are having.
And that is true.
But Mrs. McMahon, you are also aware that in America we
have more income and wealth inequality than we have ever had
before. You are aware that we have the highest rate of
childhood poverty of almost any major country on Earth.
You are aware, I suspect, that teachers are dealing with
kids who are literally homeless. Kids who come from
dysfunctional families where there is violence. Does it concern
you in America that we are living in a society where the people
on top are doing phenomenally well while 60 percent of
Americans are living paycheck to paycheck? And how do you think
that impacts our educational system?
Ms. McMahon. Thank you very much, Senator, for that
question. First of all, let me say that I believe that teaching
is one of the most noble professions that we have in our
Country, and we have so many good, dedicated teachers to help
our students. I do think that we are trapping students often in
low performing schools, and that is why the President has such
a strong policy toward school choice.
Senator Sanders. But you will agree--I don't mean to
interrupt you. But you will agree that you can't just look at
education--the truth is that middle class, upper middle class
public schools in America generally do pretty well.
But if you are homeless, if you were a homeless person and
you had kids, the odds of your kids doing pretty well--and I am
just asking you, what do you think about the massive level of
income and wealth inequality, the fact that we have the highest
rate of childhood poverty? Is that something you think you
might want to pay attention to?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly, Senator, I do believe that we
want to make sure that every child in our Country has the
opportunity to have equal access to a quality education. And
the Department of Education really is not setting economic
policy in the country. We should focus on educating our
children and we should focus on it at the local level.
Senator Sanders. Let me ask you this. You have mentioned
correctly that we have many great teachers in America, right?
Ms. McMahon. Yes.
Senator Sanders. If you as a businesswoman wanted to
attract the best and the brightest, would you be starting them
off after they leave school maybe $50,000, $60,000 in debt with
salaries of $35,000 or $40,000.
Or would you say we respect--you have talked about teaching
being the noblest profession. I agree with you. Would you agree
with me, support my legislation that says no teacher in America
should earn at least $60,000 a year?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly the pay to teachers is up to
the states where those teachers reside. I do believe we should
pay our teachers fairly. They spend so much time with their
students and they should be well compensated for their job.
Senator Sanders. All right. But paying them fairly, nobody
in the world will disagree with you. I mean, the question is,
if teaching is a noble profession, if teaching is an important
profession should we be paying them salaries commensurate with
the value that they--of the work that they are doing? So I am
asking you a simple question, would you recommend to states, as
the leader of education in America, that teachers at least make
$60,000 a year?
Ms. McMahon. I would certainly recommend to states that
teachers be paid what is commensurate with the kinds of jobs
that are part of their states. Not all states have the same
living costs.
Not all states have the same ability to pay teachers. But
to attract really good teachers and to keep them, we should
definitely pay them commensurate with the job performance that
they are undertaking.
Senator Sanders. Millions of young people, low income
people, are finding it very difficult to afford to go to
college. And they are leaving school $50,000, $100,000,
$200,000 in debt.
Pell Grant program provides assistance to over 7 million
low income young people in this country. Can you guarantee to
us, if you are made a Secretary of Education, that no student
in America will lose their Pell grant as one--as that
Department is dismantled?
Ms. McMahon. Surely the defunding is not the goal here. The
continuation of Pell Grants--I would actually even like to see
an expansion of Pell Grants. I would like to see short term
certificates for Pell Grants for students who aren't going on
to 4 year universities, who could have the opportunity to use
Pell Grants for skill based learning.
Senator Sanders. What I am hearing you say is the Pell
Grant program will continue under your Administration?
Ms. McMahon. Yes.
Senator Sanders. Okay. Mister--Senator Cassidy asked you an
important question, and that is, do you agree--and let me just
once again get your feelings on this--that if there is a
movement to abolish the Department of Education, it has to go
through the United States Congress?
Ms. McMahon. Yes, it is set up by the U.S. Congress and we
work with Congress. It clearly cannot be shut down without it.
Senator Sanders. Thank you.
The Chair. Senator Collins.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you.
Senator Collins. Welcome. First of all, let me say I was
very pleased to hear your strong commitment to enforcing the
Office of Civil Rights jurisdiction over the many incidences,
horrible incidences of the anti-Semitism that we have seen on
our college campuses.
Among the important programs that are administered by the
Department of Education are Title I, IDEA, TRIO programs, all
of which have been high priorities for me. I want to briefly
discuss those programs.
Title I helps public schools that are serving low income
students. It helps level the playing field in terms of
resources compared to more affluent communities. In Maine, 63
percent of our public schools receive Title I funds, very
important to our state.
Second, IDEA, the Disabilities and Education Act, which
helps children with special needs. Maine receives more than $65
million to support K through 12 students with special education
needs.
I would note that falls far short of the 40 percent that
was promised when the legislation was passed in the 1970's.
TRIO programs, which we have discussed, have changed the lives
of countless first generation students who are going to college
and come from families with no experience with higher
education.
I have seen so many success stories as a result of TRIO. So
my question for you is how do we maintain the administration
and oversight of these programs if we abolish or substantially
reorganize the Department of Education?
Ms. McMahon. Thank you, Senator Collins. And I know how
passionate you are about these issues, and I enjoyed meeting
with you in your office and talking about these various things,
especially I think the TRIO program which we both agreed was
just hit a terrible blow just by regulation with some of the
students who were applying, their applications were rejected
simply because of spacing on a form.
Senator Collins. Right.
Ms. McMahon. That kind of regulatory control just cannot
stand. That is just impossible. The Title I programs that you
have been--discussed will continue to be appropriated through
Congress. Today, they go directly to the State Departments of
Education and then are distributed to the districts.
Not looking to defund or reduce any of those amounts. IDEA
is the same. But might it be better served in a different
agency? I am not sure. It started at HEW, and the concerns for
disabilities and health issues with students may very well rest
better within an agency that has more oversight of all of
those.
I think if I am confirmed to be able to get in and assess
programs how they can have the best oversight possible, how we
can really take the bureaucracy out of education and focus on
teaching our children to read and to do math, and to appreciate
our history, is certainly my goal and would be my goal as the
Secretary of Education.
Senator Collins. Thank you. On Monday, the Administration
announced that the Department of Education was going to
terminate 89 contracts from the Institute of Education
Sciences. They were worth $881 million.
As well as terminating 29 training grants. This week, my
office heard from a former teacher from Oakland, Maine who has
developed a high impact tutoring model, and it is currently
being used in 12 schools in Maine alone, and she has one of the
grant applications pending to more thoroughly evaluate the
impact of this model on the students' outcomes.
She is worried that it is now going to be in jeopardy due
to these sudden cuts. Considering the poor reading and math
scores reported by NAEP, and that unfortunately includes poor
scores in my home state, shouldn't the Department of Education
continue to collect data and evaluate outcomes rather than to
halt these activities so that you can help states know what
works?
Ms. McMahon. Well, thank you, Senator. And it is my goal,
if I am confirmed, to get in and assist these kinds of
programs, because I am not sure yet what the impact of all of
those programs are.
I know that there are many worthwhile programs that we
should keep, but I am not--I am not yet apprised of them. I
want to study them. I would like to get back and talk to you
more and to work with you. I look forward to working with this
Committee and all of Congress to make sure we can deliver for
our education.
[Background protestors.]
Senator Collins. Thank you. I appreciate your responses.
Thank you.
[Background demonstrators.]
Senator Murkowski. The Committee will come to order.
Senator Murray.
Senator Murray. Thank you. Ms. McMahon, Elon Musk's DOGE
staffers have reportedly set up camp at the Department of
Education.
They have already been given access to highly sensitive
student data and have already started holding back money that
Congress decided on a bipartisan basis was needed to help our
schools and students.
We are also hearing, about an Executive Order coming any
day that will seek to dismantle the Department of Education.
These are bipartisan laws. You indicated that you understood
that, that the Congress has passed these laws, but a lot of
turmoil is happening. You heard it from my colleague just
asking that question now.
I want to ask you, if confirmed, do you commit to getting
every dollar we have invested in our students and schools out
to them?
Ms. McMahon. Well, the appropriated dollars and those
moneys that are passed by Congress, yes.
I have no issue, however, with the fact--and I believe the
American people spoke loudly in the election last November to
say that they want to look at waste, fraud, and abuse in our
government.
DOGE, there are a couple of implants at the Department of
Education as there are with agencies throughout the district
and they are doing an audit. And it is----
Senator Murray. Right. I understand and audit, but when
Congress appropriates money, it is the Administration's
responsibility to put that out as directed by Congress who has
the power of the purse.
What will you do if the President or Elon Musk tells you
not to spend money Congress has appropriated to you?
Ms. McMahon. We will certainly spend those dollars that
Congress has passed. But I do think it is worthwhile to take a
look at the programs before money goes out the door. It is much
easier--it is much easier----
Senator Murray. I understand that but----
Ms. McMahon [continuing]. To stop the money as is going out
the door than it is to claw it back.
Senator Murray. Process by law is that you look at that,
you make recommendations to Congress, and we implement those
laws.
I mean, the question really is who decides how much Federal
funding public schools get in Seattle, where it has already
been allocated. The school district, or Elon Musk, or Congress?
I think Congress has been pretty clear that the purse lies
here. We passed our appropriations bills. We expect those
programs to count. If you have input, if you have programs you
have looked at that you believe are not effective, then it is
your job to come to us, explain why, and get the support for
that.
Ms. McMahon. Okay.
Senator Murray. Let me move on. Ms. McMahon, I believe that
our Nation's students, families, and taxpayers do want true
accountability. They do want improvement in our schools. Back
in 2015, Congress came together in a bipartisan way to replace
the No Child Left Behind Act with the new law, Every Student
Succeeds Act.
That was a bill I was very proud to negotiate with my
Republican counterpart on this Committee--passed it into law.
It gives states more flexibility in using their Federal
education funds, it eliminated those one size fits all mandates
that everyone hated, and it established some really strong
Federal guardrails to hold states and schools accountable.
I believe that the Department of Education must do more to
implement that law. Right now, less than 42 percent of our
schools identified for comprehensive support and improvement,
or CSI as we call it.
Had a plan that met all the requirements of that law. And 1
in 5 schools plans included practices we know are ineffective.
National assessment results, as you well know, released a few
weeks ago show that our lowest performing students continue to
fall furthest behind.
I want to ask you, what specific actions will you take to
implement the ESSA law? I am not looking for an exhaustive
list, but can you name a couple of the requirements that are in
that law that you will make sure are implemented?
Ms. McMahon. Well, Senator, thank you. And I would look
forward to working with you and the Committee, understanding
more about the ESSA law.
Senator Murray. Do you know what the requirements are? Do
you know about the requirements for targeted support
improvement schools or the annual report card reform? Can you
name any of the requirements that are in that?
Ms. McMahon. Yes, I have--I have read through ESSA. And I
do know--it is very interesting. It is how I really got into
education in the first place was when No Child Left Behind was
in place.
Senator Murray. But there are no requirements that you can
tell me right now that you will make sure as Secretary of
Education you will implement?
Ms. McMahon. No, I want to study it further and get back to
you on that, and I will be happy to do that.
Senator Murray. Okay. Well, let me ask one last question.
As I mentioned, DOGE staff have been given access in the
Department of Education to personal information--personal
information of students and families like their Social Security
numbers, and their driver's license numbers, and their date of
birth, what college they are enrolled in.
I know that the access has been temporarily paused due to
litigation, but there is a real potential for that kind of
information to be abused or for students' privacy to be placed
in jeopardy if the courts end up ruling against the students.
We know that DOGE could use that highly personal
information to then target students and target their families
or cutoff access to Pell Grants for students at college that
someone perceives opposes maybe President Trump policy.
I want to ask you, do you believe that DOGE employees
should have access to private student data?
Ms. McMahon. It is my understanding that those employees
have been onboarded as employees of the Department of Education
and therefore they operate under the restraints of utilizing
access of information and they are constrained by that.
Senator Murray. That is not our understanding. And I have
to tell you----
Ms. McMahon. That is my understanding.
Senator Murray [continuing]. Deeply concerning that. We
have DOGE staffers. We don't know who they are. They are not
held accountable. Getting access to students private
information. I think that should frighten everyone.
Ms. McMahon. Well, again, I am not there yet----
Senator Murray. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. McMahon [continuing]. I am not there yet, but it is my
understanding that they are onboarded fully employees.
Senator Murray. I hope if you do get there, that you make
sure that students' private information is not given to someone
who has no idea what or we have no idea how they are using it.
Thank you.
Senator Murkowski. Senator Husted.
Senator Husted. Thank you. Ms. McMahon, thank you--or
congratulations on your nomination.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you.
Senator Husted. Look forward to your confirmation,
hopefully, and working with you on what is arguably one of the
most important issues to the future of our Country and to our
children. I would just simply ask you, if you believe that
education is foundational to the opportunity to live your
version of the American dream for children? You agree with
that?
Ms. McMahon. I certainly do agree with that. And thank you
very much, Senator, for that question. Education, I think, is
at the very--it is at the very center of our culture. It is the
ticket out of poverty for so many students.
It is how our children's minds are absolutely cultivated so
that they can learn. And I remember listening to Senator
Cassidy when he said that every child up until the third grade
learns to read and then after the third grade reads to learn.
And if children cannot read at a proficiency level, they cannot
continue to learn.
They can't then be proficient in school. They can't go
forward to higher education. They can't even start a business
or do anything. So education I do believe that the very center
of what we need to do, and to ensure that we have the best
education for our students and that they all have equal access
to quality education.
Senator Husted. Thank you. The issue of inequality has come
up in this hearing. And I can tell you as a--when I started in
my elected career, I was a Green State Legislator in the State
of Ohio who had this strange notion that if children were
trapped in chronically failing schools, that they should have
the opportunity to go somewhere else.
Then I thought, who could be against that? And I quickly
found out, well, there were a lot of people who were against
that--powerful people, powerful institutions. And I just
believe that we as Americans, we believe that freedom and
choice is good. It is part of our DNA. It is good for markets
and business.
That monopolies don't work, whether that is big business or
big government. And that has been reinforced to me over the
course of the--basically my lifetime that I have worked on this
issue. Foundationally, or fundamentally, billionaires have
choice.
Their children have choice. It is children that grow up in
poverty that don't have choice. And that is an important
element of fixing inequality because if we are going to--if we
say that an education is foundational to living your version of
the American dream, that you don't have the choice to go to a
school that serves your needs, we basically have
institutionalized a barrier against that opportunity and to
have that equality of opportunity. Just share with me how you
hope to fix that.
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly the President, one of his
cornerstones relative to education is school choice. He
certainly does believe in universal school choice. And we have
seen, I think that there are now, I believe the number of 33
states. I might be corrected on that. States that do have
school choice.
What we have found that public schools come up. They are
competitive. A lot of the concerns relative to school choice I
think the statistics belie. We have students that are not
leaving public schools in hordes and going to other schools,
but they have the opportunity.
Parents look at their children and say, I want that for my
child. My school is failing my child. So if I have the
opportunity to have an educational savings account, or a
voucher program, or a scholarship program to get my child maybe
to that charter school or to that other public school that is
doing better than the one that my child is here because this is
where I live, but I know that if I could get my child to that
next school, they would be better off. Every parent wants that
opportunity for their child.
Senator Husted. Thank you. And just quickly, I made some
calls to superintendents in my State in Ohio before I came
today and I said, would you prefer to have the money sent
directly to you rather than through the Federal Department of
Education?
Do you think you could do a better job if we released you
from the rules and regulations and you just said--and they
said, yes. Tell us what you want us to achieve. We will achieve
it. We will do it.
I just wanted to share that with you. And that--I also want
to give you a chance to answer this, that you are not, and
President Trump is not talking about cutting any funding for
children. You are not talking about cutting funding for
disabled children.
You are just talking about changing the way that the money
gets to these students in schools and that you are committed to
that. Is that correct?
Ms. McMahon. That is correct, Senator. Thank you very much.
Senator Husted. Great. Thank you.
The Chair. It is now Senator Baldwin.
Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And before I
start my questions, I just wanted to put some studies in the
record.
Research studies of private school vouchers in Louisiana,
Indiana, Ohio, and Washington, DC. showed that students who
used these vouchers performed worse academically than their
public school peers.
I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record those four
studies that show private school vouchers have a negative
impact on student achievement.
The Chair. Without objection.
[The following information can be found on page 53 in
Additional Material:]
Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. McMahon, I
appreciated the opportunity to meet with you last month, and I
believe in giving all the President's nominees a fair shake.
That is what the people of Wisconsin expect from me, and I
look forward to hearing more about your approach to running the
Department of Education if confirmed. Mrs. McMahon, since 1972,
Title IX has been a critical tool in ensuring that all students
are protected from sex based discrimination in federally funded
education programs.
We briefly discussed Title IX in our meeting, but I would
like to ask you a series of yes or no questions to get into a
little bit more detail here. So yes or no, do you believe that
Title IX should be enforced to protect students from sexual
harassment and sexual assault?
Ms. McMahon. Yes, I do.
Senator Baldwin. Do you believe that sexual harassment that
is severe should be prohibited under Title IX?
Ms. McMahon. I think sexual harassment should be prohibited
in any case.
Senator Baldwin. Thank you. Do you believe that sexual
harassment that is pervasive should be prohibited by Title IX?
Ms. McMahon. Yes.
Senator Baldwin. Do you believe that harassment that is
either severe or pervasive should be prohibited under Title IX?
Ms. McMahon. I don't believe there should be any acceptance
of sexual harassment, Senator.
Senator Baldwin. Great. Because I am glad you actually
agree with President Trump's efforts during his first term to
narrow what qualifies as sexual harassment under Title IX. He--
his guidance said that sexual harassment had to be severe and
pervasive.
I hope that you will take your position and press for that
to be the law, but right now, the Title IX is limited to sexual
harassment that is severe and pervasive, not severe or
pervasive.
Yes or no, if an assault occurs between two student but it
happens off campus, do you think the school should have the
ability to investigate that matter?
Ms. McMahon. I think the school should investigate that
matter. And I believe under the regulations today, and I could
be corrected on that, that they are obligated to investigate.
Senator Baldwin. Okay. And do you believe that the school
then, after investigation, should have the ability to take
actions regarding an incident that occurs off campus?
Ms. McMahon. Yes. I think the school should be required to
take those actions, and to investigate, and to notify the
parties that are involved and that--so that both sides of the
equation can have due process.
Senator Baldwin. I appreciate your answer. It is not
entirely clear at this matter in this--at this time that the
incidents would not only be investigated but adjudicated as to
the school's adjudication rules.
The problem with that, as I am sure you are well aware, is
that you would have the potential of a victim of sexual assault
facing the potential--attending class with their perpetrator.
Despite how much this Administration likes to talk about
protecting women and girls, the actions have not matched the
rhetoric.
I think instead of actually protecting women and girls,
this Administration is not making school a safer place for
anyone while using this topic as a way to fearmonger and
demonize others. Mrs. McMahon, you have been named in a lawsuit
which alleges that you and your husband allowed for systemic
and pervasive abuse of underage children to persist in your
business for years.
It is an ongoing lawsuit, and it alleges that you rehired a
known sexual predator and you felt it was sufficient to simply
direct him to steer clear of children. If confirmed, you will
be responsible with overseeing the Department of Education
Office of Civil Rights, charged with ensuring equal access to
education through vigorous enforcement of civil rights laws.
I am so concerned about whether sexual assault survivors on
campus can trust you to support them.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you, Senator. They certainly can trust
me to support them. I have a granddaughter that is now in
college. I have two grandsons who are in college.
I have a deep commitment of understanding of how I would
feel if any of them were involved in sexual harassment or
accused of sexual harassment.
You have my absolute commitment that I will uphold and
protect those investigations to make sure that those students
are treated fairly on both sides.
Senator Baldwin. Mrs. McMahon, we met shortly after a
shooting at----
The Chair. You are a minute over.
Senator Baldwin. Oh, I will submit this question for the
record. Thank you.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you, Senator.
The Chair. Senator Tuberville.
Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. Ms.
McMahon, thank you for being here today and thanks for wanting
to take on this monumental task.
I am a football coach. I am not a lawyer. I am not a
business guy. I taught high school and worked my way up for 40
years. This country gives you one thing and is what I taught my
kids when I coached country.
This country doesn't owe you anything but an opportunity,
and that is the reason this country is the greatest country on
the face of the earth. Now, when you lose that opportunity, and
you--I have lost many times. I have got my tail back up and
gone again.
But that is where you learn it, through education. I have
been to every state in this country recruiting, going through
high schools, except for Alaska, in my 40 years. In my 40 years
of coaching and going into a high school, there has not been a
bigger disappointment than our education system.
I have seen it decline for 40 years. It has gotten worse.
So you are going to have the task of trying to bring it back.
It is going to be hard to do because you are going to be fought
from every side. This is not Democrat, Republican, Black,
White.
It is not--it is an American problem. I have spent tens of
thousands of dollars of my budget when I coach and bringing
kids in. After I test them, they couldn't read past sixth grade
reading level, but they had 3.5 GPAs when they came to my
university. We are failing. It is a disaster. If you can't
read, you can't learn.
That is one of the first things that we got to get back to,
is teaching our kids to read. We got a lot of teachers that
don't teach reading like you and I learned. It is different. We
have all this nonsensical teaching of what we call common core
of math.
I still haven't figured that out. But thanks for wanting to
take this on because there is a lot of obstacles that are going
to be in your way. And so, don't be afraid to make changes. We
have had a K through 12 system for years. It is a failure. It
is an absolute failure. Let's teach our kids.
That is the only chance they got to survive in this world,
which is going to be very competitive. Now we have things that
are getting in our way. And what is deterring our kids
nowadays? That thing right there.
I had problems coaching with--enemy No. 1 when I told them,
put that damn phone up. Don't bring it to my dressing room
because I want you to listen and learn, not be on there,
listening to music and read the nonsense you see on there.
You got a lot of obstacles. The one thing I think we need
to do is just look at K through 12 and what do we do? How do we
get better? I am all for workforce development in the last 2
years of high school, teaching kids to learn to use their
hands.
What is your thoughts on that, about work in high school? I
am not talking about the past. I am talking about the last
couple of years.
Ms. McMahon. Well, thank you, Senator. I think when you and
I met in your office, and I appreciated that time, I discussed
with you that I probably dated myself by saying that when I was
in high school, in your senior year in high school you could
take vocational--a vocational program, which meant that you
went to school the first part of the day.
The second part of the day you could have a job. You could
be learning a skill or a trade, and those credits would count
toward your education. I think we need to get back to more of
that. We are not teaching skill based learning in our schools
anymore.
I think we have to look at our entire education system and
say, 4 year college is not for everyone. For those particular
jobs that require it, your doctors, lawyers, engineers that
require 4 years, then I think----
[Background demonstrators.]
The Chair. Ms. McMahon, please suspend.
[Background demonstrators.]
The Chair. The Committee will come to order. Capitol Police
are asked to remove the individual from the room.
Senator Tuberville. I don't think she knows how to read.
The Chair. Again, members of the audience are reminded that
disruptions will not be permitted while the Committee conducts
its business. And with that, Ms. McMahon, please resume.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you. So I think we do have to get back
to teaching basics in school K through 12. But to continue onto
what we were talking about, but we don't have enough skill
based learning.
We don't have enough internships or apprenticeship
programs. I would also like to see more dual credits in our
high schools, our junior and senior years, that would count
toward community colleges, or other or other institutes that
would get students through college faster if in fact that is
the plan that they are going to take.
We have so much that we can do to help our students get
prepared to have a good income and a good livelihood. And if
they can graduate from high school with some skill based
already, they can even start a business of their own.
They can decide at that particular point, I want to put
more money toward my own education, but in the meantime I am
prepared to make a living. But I think we have to look at
education and say, our vocational and skill based training is
not a default education.
It can be something. It can be front and center so that
students who are inclined to go in that direction actually
should be encouraged to do that. It is not one size fits all.
Senator Tuberville. I would hope too that you would look--
my time is almost up but look at the number of teachers we have
now as compared to administrators. We need teachers.
We don't need people sitting in the office with their feet
propped up. We need people in the classrooms teaching these
kids, hold them accountable. And put more money in the teachers
and less money in administrators. I think we would be a heck of
a lot better off. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you.
The Chair. I will note for the record that many of the
losses Coach Tuberville suffered were at the hands of LSU.
[Laughter.]
The Chair. Senator Murphy.
Senator Murphy. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Ms.
McMahon, good to see you. You and I have spent a lot of time
over the years, and I appreciate your willingness to sit before
the Committee and answer some really important questions.
I want to talk to you about an Executive Order that the
Trump administration issued that commands agencies, including
the Department of Education, to eliminate grants to
organizations and entities that support DEI programs and
activities.
As you know, this has a lot of schools all across the
country scrambling because they have no idea what that means.
They don't know, because the order doesn't define DEI, as to
whether they are in compliance or out of compliance, and
whether they are going to have their Federal grants
compromised.
How does the school know whether it is running a DEI
program or not?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly--and thank you, Senator. And
it is good to see you again outside of the State of Connecticut
where we run into each other. DEI I think has been--it is a
program that is tough.
It was put in place ostensibly for more diversity, for
equity, and inclusion, and I think what we are seeing is that
it is having an opposite effect. We are getting back to more
segregating of our schools instead of having more inclusion in
our schools.
When there are DEI programs that say that Black students
need separate graduation ceremonies, or Hispanics need separate
ceremonies, we are not achieving what we wanted to achieve with
inclusion.
Senator Murphy. Let me give you an example then. So this
order applies to Department of Defense schools, and those
schools have canceled all programing around Black History
Month.
If a school in Connecticut celebrates Martin Luther King
Day and has a series of events and programing teaching about
Black history, are they in violation of a policy that says
schools should stop running DEI programs?
Ms. McMahon. Not in my view. That is clearly not the case.
The celebration of Martin Luther King Day and Black History
Month should be celebrated throughout all of our schools. I
believe that Martin Luther King was one of the strongest
proponents of making sure that we look at all of our
populations.
When he said that he would hope that his children wouldn't
be judged by the color of their skin, but the content of their
character, and I think that is the fundamental basis that we
should celebrate Black History Month.
Senator Murphy. West Point has closed down all ethnic
clubs, so the Society of Black Engineers no longer can meet
because they believe that to be in compliance with this order,
they cannot have groups structured around ethnic or racial
affiliations.
Would schools--would public schools be in violation of this
order--would they risk funding if they had clubs that students
could belong to based on their racial or ethnic identity?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I certainly today don't want to address
hypothetical situations. I would like, once I am confirmed, to
get in and assess these programs, look at what has been
covered----
Senator Murphy. Is that a pretty easy one? I mean, you are
saying that it is a possibility that if a school has a club for
Vietnamese American students or Black students where they meet
after school, that they could be potentially in jeopardy of
receiving Federal funding?
Ms. McMahon. Again, I would like to fully understand what
that order is and what those clubs are doing.
Senator Murphy. That is pretty chilling. I think schools
all around the country are going to hear that. What about
educational programing centered around specific ethnic and
racial experiences?
My son is in a public school. He takes a class called
African American History. If you are running an African
American history class, could you perhaps be in violation of
this court order--of this Executive Order?
Ms. McMahon. I am not quite certain, and I would like to
look into it further and get back to you on that.
Senator Murphy. There is a possibility--there is a
possibility, you are saying, that public schools that run
African American history classes, right--this is a class that
has been taught in public schools for decades, could lose
Federal funding if they continue to teach African-American
history.
Ms. McMahon. No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying
that I would like to take a look at these programs and fully
understand the breadth of the Executive Order and get back to
you on that.
Senator Murphy. I think you are going to have a lot of
educators and a lot of principals and administrators scrambling
right now. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time has expired.
The Chair. Senator Murkowski.
Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Ms.
McMahon.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you.
Senator Murkowski. Good to have a conversation with you.
You have had the privilege, I know, to come to Alaska during
your tenure at the SBA. You came North, so I know that you have
had an opportunity to understand some of the challenges that we
face with basically our geography.
I wanted to talk a little bit this morning about our public
schools. There is a lot of discussion, and I listened carefully
to your comments to Senator Husted about school choice. We
would all love to have the benefits of greater school choice.
In the Anchorage public school system, my sons were able to
attend a magnet school that was focused on an immersion program
for--Spanish speaking immersion program. It was a great program
for them. I go to the vast majority of my communities across
the state and there is no choice. It is a small village. It may
have 500 people, it may have 1,000 people, but you have one
school.
It is not as if there is an opportunity to go to another
school because 82 percent of these communities are not
connected by a road. So if you wanted to go to another school,
you would have to figure out how you fly to another village,
another population center.
For me, investment in our public education system is really
what I have been focused on. I had an opportunity to speak
before our Alaska Association of School Boards just recently
and received a standing ovation when I said public funds for
public schools. Pretty simple.
I want to ask you whether you believe it is your primary
role and responsibility as Secretary to support and strengthen
our Nation's public schools?
Ms. McMahon. I absolutely do believe that our public
schools are the bedrock of our education. They go back to the
very founding of our Country. I think in the first
Constitution, there were actually Secretaries of each state
that were set aside for the specific goal of public education.
Education is certainly understood to be so vital and so
important to what we are doing. I understand the schools in
Alaska--I think when I was in your office, we were talking
about the school that I visited in Kwethluk, which is a very,
very small island.
The school was being funded by SBA, this was when I was at
SBA, and because we were looking at the fact that there was no
real community center and no glue holding the community
together. And the children, especially in K through 12, often
dropped out of school because they didn't see the need or the
necessity to continue with education and they would often wind
up on the streets or not having jobs.
I have not checked back with that school to see how it was
going, but I saw the commitment of that community to invest and
to make sure that the best education--and this was a state of
the art school built on this island.
When I pulled up in the boat in that village, there were
mothers in a smoking hut that were cutting salmon to get ready
for the winter. And on the other side, there was this
incredibly modern school that was being built.
I think we have to invest our public education, if we can
use public funds, to help with tutoring in those issues, in
those instances where you don't have a choice to go to another
school.
Senator Murkowski. You quite possibly saw one of the very
few examples of good infrastructure. And as we know, it is not
just giving a good building. It is making sure that you have
teachers that are able to stay in a village that lacks a lot of
resources, a lot of support.
I want to pivot from that, but I do want to underscore the
emphasis on education equity across America including in the
most rural of areas. Because I listen to a lot of the comments
around here, and it works if you are in a city, but it doesn't
work in my communities, and I have an obligation to them.
I want to ask you about local control here real quickly.
This has been something that as Republicans we have been
talking about, this is--it is local control, local control,
local control. And we have got a lot of folks that are
suggesting that now the public school curriculum should not
include lessons in diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Want to focus on other things. I understand that. But we
have ESSA, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. We
included a number of provisions that were very, very specific
in prohibiting any Federal employee from mandating, directing,
or controlling a state's school districts or school's
instructional content, academic standards, and assessments,
curricula, or program of instruction.
You may be in a situation where, as Secretary, you may not
condition the award of a grant on a school agreeing not to
teach DEI subjects. You may be in a position where you can't
mandate that they teach the principles of the U.S.
Constitution.
You may be in a position where you are not able to prohibit
teachers from discussing LGBTQ issues with students. ESSA is
very clear. And again, it was something that we wanted to
promote as Republicans with the focus on local control.
How do you balance what you have shared here before the
Committee with the requirements of the law that says the
Federal Government is not the school board here, if you will,
for our Nation's schools?
Ms. McMahon. Thank you, Senator. And I believe--I don't
remember which is the Senators this morning. Actually, I think
it was Senator--[technical problems]--who said the Department
of Education does not actually educate any child. It is to be
handled at the local level.
I understand under ESSA there were lots of regulations put
in place to return, and the goal was to return education to the
states, which is clearly the President's role. But, Senator, I
must say we have failed in our mission.
We are not delivering the kind of education that we need to
deliver to our children. I believe, as does the President, the
best education is closest to the child. That parents and school
officials who understand the needs of those children in those
communities can best direct the education of those states, and
states will be competitive.
Governors have put in programs for school choice, etcetera,
and looking--and what kind of results are we seeing? I was
heartened by the State of Louisiana in the recent NAEP scores
that came out that they had brought up their reading and their
math scores by a considerable percentage because they went back
to basics.
They were teaching children to read and write and do
arithmetic. And I think I heard a superintendent of the
Louisiana schools say that he would--he used everything from
flashcards to AI to make sure that the students were getting
the basics in education, and that is what we have to get back
to.
Senator Murkowski. Sounds like you are suggesting we need
to amend or change ESSA. Okay.
The Chair. Senator Murkowski, I was asleep at the wheel.
Senator Murkowski. Go ahead.
The Chair. You are like way over.
Senator Murkowski. I am sorry.
The Chair. Senator Kaine.
Senator Kaine. I would never describe you as asleep at the
wheel, Mr. Chairman. But thank you, Ms. McMahon. I enjoyed the
visit we had in our office, especially our discussion about
career and technical education.
Ms. McMahon. Yes.
Senator Kaine. That is a huge passion of mine. I want to
ask you about public service loan forgiveness. The Federal
Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program was put in place during
the Bush administration. Bipartisan Congress. It has been part
of law since 2007. But what is your position on the Public
Service Loan Forgiveness Program?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly, and thank you very much. And
it was good to visit with you in your office, Senator. Clearly,
there are programs that have already been passed by Congress
that do, in fact, grant loan forgiveness for public service.
Our first responders, military, etcetera, and we certainly
should honor those programs. And if we want stronger or more
programs for loan forgiveness, then I think Congress should
pass those programs and then we would implement it.
Senator Kaine. Your commitment is, should you be confirmed,
you will fully implement existing public service loan
forgiveness programs that have been passed by Congress?
Ms. McMahon. Those that have been passed by Congress, yes.
That is the law.
Senator Kaine. That is very important because during the
first Trump administration, Secretary DeVos and the Department
of Education slow walked approvals of public service loan
forgiveness. 7,000 people over the course of 4 years were
granted forgiveness under the programs.
It was about a 3 percent acceptance rate of fully qualified
applicants for public service loan forgiveness. During the
Biden administration, more than a million applicants were
approved for forgiveness, as was appropriate given the
Congressional directive, and more than 33,000 Virginia public
servants were given public service loan forgiveness.
If the DOGE brothers or somebody else tells you we don't
like these programs and we don't want you to implement them, I
can count on you to stand up and fully implement them to
benefit those who are entitled to the benefit by the
Congressional statute?
Ms. McMahon. Yes, because that is the law.
Senator Kaine. Thank you for that. If there is no
Department of Education, who will enforce the Individuals with
Disabilities and Education Act?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I think that is something that I would
very much like to understand more and look into.
I mean, when IDEA was originally set up, it was under HEW,
the Department of Health, Education and Welfare. After the
Department of Education was established in 1980, it shifted
over there. I am not sure that it is not better served in HHS.
But I don't know. I haven't yet been able to be in.
If I am confirmed, it is of high priority to make sure that
the students who are receiving disability loans--I mean,
disability funding, that is not impacted. It is incredibly
important that those programs continue to be funded.
Senator Kaine. My Virginia parents who have children with
disabilities are highly, highly worried right now about the
elimination of the Department of Education because the IDEA is
about funding, and I know you have talked about that already,
but it is also about enforcement. You would agree with me that
there has to be vigorous enforcement of the requirements of
IDEA?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I certainly agree that we want to make
sure that funding gets to those students, and it is not
defunding----
Senator Kaine. I am not asking about funding. I am asking
about enforcement.
Ms. McMahon. Well, yes. The programs have to have
accountability. All of the programs do.
Senator Kaine. What role do you think the Federal
Government should play in addressing the national teacher
shortage?
Ms. McMahon. That is a really critical issue that we are
not--we are not attracting and keeping our teachers. One thing
I think we need to make sure of--and I am not sure it is a
Federal Government policy because that really should be at the
state level.
How are we educating and teaching our--and training our
teachers? How are we making sure that they have the supplies
that they need in their classrooms? We need to make sure that
the funding is proper in the states so that they can support
teachers.
Senator Kaine. Let me say a word about funding. Just in the
first couple of weeks of the Trump administration, here is what
they have done with respect to the teacher shortage. They have
canceled grants going to jurisdictions, including jurisdictions
in Virginia, on teacher training programs that have been
designed to reduce teacher shortages.
There is also a national priority that I am sure you are
familiar with, national board certification for teachers. It is
kind of giving teachers the ability to sort of up their
professional credentials, and often local governments, and
occasionally the Federal Government, will give an incentive, a
financial incentive for upping your credentials.
The Trump administration canceled the grant that goes to
the organization that administers national teachers
certification. I get it that the primary responsibility for
dealing with teacher shortages is at the state and local level,
but the Federal Government has played an important role in
this, and there are important ongoing initiatives to help
states deal with it that this Administration is canceling,
suggesting that they don't really prioritize having highly
qualified teachers standing up in front of every classroom.
My time has expired. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair. Thank you.
Senator Hawley.
Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. McMahon, thank
you for being here. Nice to see you again. Let me just say
this, the last 4 years have been in many ways absolutely
hellacious for students on our college campuses.
You had the last Administration, which issued Federal
rules, binding regulations that required our college campuses
to put biological men into women's locker rooms. You had
multiple universities claiming the mandate, claiming the cover
of the Biden administration forcing women to accept biological
men in women's sports.
You have seen young woman after young woman denied basic
safety in their changing facilities, for heaven's sake, basic
safety in their dorm rooms, not able to play college sports.
I am delighted that a Federal court finally struck down
this Biden administration rule back in January, just over a
month ago, and President Trump issued a clear, strong,
unequivocal Executive Order saying that Title IX will be
enforced according to its terms, which is Title IX protects
women's sports. It protects women on college campuses.
No more men in women's locker rooms. This is a huge victory
for common sense and the rule of law. My question to you is
this, a number of universities, including some very prominent
ones, ones that love to call themselves elite, have said they
are not going to follow that Executive Order.
They are going to keep having men in women's locker rooms.
They are going to try to get men in women's sports. What can be
done to ensure that these colleges comply with the law and that
women are safe on campus, and that women are able to play
sports without men interfering?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly that--it is a--I agree with
you that I was very happy to see that--those restrictions on
Title IX vacated so that we are really back to what Title IX
was originally established to do, and that was to protect
sexual discrimination.
Women should feel safe in their locker rooms. They should
feel safe in their spaces. They shouldn't have to be exposed to
men undressing in front of them. I think I heard one person the
other day say, well, the guy should hold the shower curtain in
front of them so that they aren't exposing themselves.
I mean, really, that is just not what we should be doing.
We want to make sure that Title IX, which is the law, is
enforced, and we need to uphold that.
Senator Hawley. Will you investigate those universities
that are not complying with Title IX, that are not complying
with the President's Executive Order--these universities are
absolutely getting Federal funds from this Department, the
Department that you are going to run, if and when you are
confirmed, and I believe you will be.
Will you investigate those universities and give them an
ultimatum? Either they need to comply with the law, they need
to follow the law of Title IX, they need to follow the rules
issued by this Administration and your Department or no Federal
funding. I mean, will you make sure that this--that the law is
enforced?
Ms. McMahon. Yes, we will make sure the laws is enforced.
Senator Hawley. Very good. Let me ask you about----
[Background demonstrators.]
The Chair. The Senator will suspend. The Committee will
come to order. Capitol Police are asked to remove the
individual from the hearing room. Members of the audience are
reminded that disruptions will not be permitted while the
Committee conducts its business. The Senator will resume.
Senator Hawley. Don't worry, Ms. McMahon. It is me, it is
not you, as a matter of fact.
[Laughter.]
Senator Hawley. Let me ask you about something else that
has happened on our campuses in the last 4 years, the wave of
antisemitism that we have seen, particularly after October 7th
with the attacks on Israel. Shameful attacks on Jewish
students, Jewish American students, Jewish students from
overseas.
We have seen the most unbelievable pro-terrorist
propaganda. And again, these universities taking Federal money,
getting Federal funds, not protecting Jewish students,
permitting encampments, permitting violence, in some instances
attacks on students on their campuses.
The President has issued an Executive Order on January the
29th on measures to combat anti-Semitism, and he directed the
Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights to open Title
VI investigations into a number of universities, including
Columbia, Berkeley, Northwestern.
Will you enforce the law, Title VI to the hilt, and will
you make sure that Jewish Americans are safe on our campuses,
for heaven's sake, and these crazy students who are committing
crimes, breaking windows, smashing into buildings, trapping
Jewish students in libraries, will you make sure that this
stops on our college campuses that are getting all of this
Federal tax money?
Ms. McMahon. Absolutely, or face defunding of their moneys.
Senator Hawley. Very good. And let me ask you about
something else. For students who have come to this country on a
student visa--and as you know, that is a lot of people on our
college campuses.
For students who are here on a student visa who have
threatened their fellow students, threatened Jewish students,
who have supported terrorist organizations, who have broken our
law by trespassing, or vandalism, or acts of violence against
Jewish students, will you see that those students, that their
visas are revoked, and they are sent home, and they are not
allowed to stay on our campuses under cover of our laws
committing crimes and threatening our own students? Will you
return some common sense to our campuses in this way?
Ms. McMahon. Yes.
[Background demonstrators.]
The Chair. Capitol Police are asked to remove the
individual from the hearing room. I am not sure it is going to
matter, but I am going to remind members of the audience that
disruptions are not to be permitted while the Committee
conducts its business.
Please show people the regard you would have them show
yourself if you are in this role. It may seem trite, but the
rudeness of people who are trying to squelch others as they are
trying to communicate in an incredibly public form is just
amazing--amazingly bad.
With that editorial comment, I then go to Senator Hassan.
Senator Hassan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And welcome, Ms.
McMahon. It was good to meet with you in my office a little bit
ago. And I have been starting these hearings with a question I
never thought I would have to ask.
I will cut to the chase with you because you have said
several times that you will uphold the law. So I assume that if
the President of the United States gives you a directive that
breaks the law, you will instead do what you are legally
required to do rather than his instruction.
Ms. McMahon. The President will not ask me to do anything
that is against the law.
Senator Hassan. Well, the last month has told us that it is
quite likely he may, but I am going to take you at your word
that you will enforce the law because you have said it several
times today.
Three weeks ago, the President unilaterally cut all Federal
grants by issuing an indefinite freeze. That is an
unconstitutional and, yes, illegal action that was stopped by
Federal courts, to my previous point.
Subsequent reporting indicates that the President is also
planning to eliminate the Department of Education, the
Education--the Department that you are interviewing today to
lead. And there is this little bit of--I don't know, the whole
hearing right now feels kind of surreal to me.
It is almost like we are being subjected to a very elegant
gaslighting here because Senator Hawley just asked you and you
talked about the need to enforce protections for Jewish
students on college campuses, but the very Department where the
enforcement would take place is the Department of Education and
he wants to eliminate it, and you say you will work with him to
do that.
Similarly, you have talked about the importance of
apprenticeships and other kinds of career and technical
education. Really important. There is bipartisan support for
that here. The Republicans are in charge. We have bipartisan
bill after bipartisan bill. We could go right forward with it,
but there is this discussion as if we haven't made any progress
on that and there is somehow a partizan divide about that.
I would encourage you to look into that. But I want to talk
a little bit about why the Department of Education is so
important. It plays a critical role in making sure that
students, regardless of their zip code, race, gender,
disability, or family circumstance have access to a quality
public education.
It was established because Congress recognized that the
country has a compelling interest in ensuring that all of our
kids become self-sufficient members of our workforce and our
civil society. New Hampshire schools rely on Federal funding of
about $2,000 per student to provide that public education.
What would you say to parents in my state who are concerned
about the President's attempt to cut all Federal funding to New
Hampshire and to eliminate the Department of Education? Are you
telling parents that their children should lose access to
special education services, for example, or lose access to
trained teachers or school nurses?
Ms. McMahon. Well, thank you, Senator, very much. Let me
just object to one point, and that is that the residents in the
State of New Hampshire should not be concerned that Federal
funding is going to be removed from their schools. How they get
that Federal funding may change----
Senator Hassan. My time is limited. What Department do you
suggest would then administer that funding?
Ms. McMahon. Which funding?
Senator Hassan. The special education funding.
Ms. McMahon. Special education, I think it could very well
go back to HHS where it started.
Senator Hassan. All right. So I just want to be clear. You
are going to put special education in the hands of Robert F.
Kennedy, Jr. Now, I want to talk about IDEA a little bit more.
I want to turn to a specific issue regarding the President's
plan to eliminate the Department of Education. What does the
Individuals with Disabilities Education Act promise?
Ms. McMahon. It promises that we are going to take care of
these students, and they are going to be provided with
assistance that they have in the school rooms, the technology
that they need, the assistance. And you and I talked a little
bit about that with your own child.
Senator Hassan. IDEA guarantees children with disabilities
a free, appropriate education. What is the Federal investment
promise to states under IDEA? What is it supposed to be?
Ms. McMahon. In terms of dollar amounts?
Senator Hassan. Yes.
Ms. McMahon. I am not sure.
Senator Hassan. The Federal Government committed back in
1975 when it passed IDEA to pay 40 percent of the average per
pupil expenditure for special education. What we actually--what
the Federal Government actually does?
Ms. McMahon. I think it is around 14 to 18 percent at this
point.
Senator Hassan. It is about 15 percent.
Ms. McMahon. But it is an appropriated amount from
Congress, though. And so Congress needs to appropriate those
dollars to spend.
Senator Hassan. That is right. But the President of the
United States is proposing, and the Republicans in Congress are
proposing massive tax cuts for billionaires, and they are
trying to pay for it by massive cuts to education and other
services.
Just so you know, New Hampshire would lose $60 million in
IDEA funding if IDEA were eliminated. I am going to--my time is
almost up. I am just going to say this. The reason the
Department of Education came about in about 1975--IDEA was
passed in 1975.
In 1979, was the Department--and Mr. Chair, I will take
just a second here. But people need to understand, people like
my son, we talked about him, before IDEA, before the Department
of Education existed, state and local schools did not educate
these kids. They barred them from the classrooms.
These kids were institutionalized and abused. There is a
reason that a Department of Education and IDEA exist, and it is
because educating kids with disabilities can be really hard,
and it takes the national commitment to get it done.
That is why so many people are so concerned about this
proposal to eliminate the Department because they think kids
will once again be shoved aside, and especially kids with
disabilities. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair. Thank you.
Senator Scott.
Senator Scott. Thank you, sir. One of the things that you
and I had the opportunity to talk about a number of months ago,
I actually believe that competition does in fact increase the
production as well as improve the outcome, typically.
Whether it is private sector or with public education, I
think competition is a key component to making things better
and typically cheaper. I think charter schools is a classic
example of that.
Typically speaking, some of the most successful schools in
the country--think about success academies in New York City,
where you have 83 percent minorities who are consistently
ranked in the top five high schools in the state because all
kids have high potential of learning. I think that we need to
make sure that every parent has choice so that the kids have
the best chance at life.
By the way, I think that public schools are part of school
choice from my perspective. Public schools, private schools,
charter schools, virtual schools, homeschool. I want the
parents to make that choice because they care the most about
their kids.
I know some people think it is the teachers unions. I think
it is the parents. I would love to hear your thoughts.
Ms. McMahon. I am sorry.
Senator Scott. I would love to hear your thoughts.
Ms. McMahon. Well, absolutely. I agree that competition is,
I think, very key. When I first was--started to take a look at
education, I was reading the Sunday morning paper in Greenwich,
Connecticut and I saw that public schools in Greenwich,
Connecticut were not meeting the levels of No Child Left
Behind, and I couldn't understand that. One of the richest
communities in the country. How could there be this kind of
achievement gap between students from lower income areas to
upper income areas?
I tried to meet with the superintendent to talk about that
article. I couldn't meet with her. I eventually talked to the
Governor. And the Governor said to me, if you are really
interested, let me introduce you to some people.
She did. And I started talking to the folks who were
developing charter schools in Connecticut. A woman named Daisha
Tall. And I visited those schools, and I saw how much better
those children were performing.
They were rapidly coming up to grade level reading and
doing math. They were teaching differently. And I thought, this
is a real opportunity. This is a charter school, which is a
public school.
Senator Scott. Yes.
Ms. McMahon. In the State of Connecticut, it is not fully
funded. The facility is not provided. And so you--it is a
public, private partnership to make sure that these schools are
offering choice and competitiveness.
We saw quite--it was clear evidence how those schools
provided an opportunity for students to succeed.
Senator Scott. Awesome. I only have 2 minutes left. That
was quick. Maybe I have as much time as I want. I will be the
Chair for a few----
[Laughter.]
Senator Scott. That's great. Oh my goodness gracious. Never
mind. I didn't see that hammer you had there. So back in 2017,
I started working on creating a definition in higher education
for anti-Semitism.
I thought then that we were seeing a little uptick. And
having been raised in the Deep South, I am familiar with
discrimination and the challenges that come with,
unfortunately, the color of people's skin and, or their
religious beliefs.
If you look at the level of hate that we have seen recently
on college campuses toward our Jewish students, I find it
disgusting, frankly. I hope that you will commit to
investigating reports of anti-Semitism to the full extent of
the law, especially on college campuses around this country.
Ms. McMahon. Yes, absolutely. There should be no
discrimination of any form. But I fully believe that there
should be First Amendment protections for discourse and for
freedom of speech.
But when you become involved in activities that are
actually endangering the students that are on campus, then that
is not what should happen. And those schools that accept
Federal funding that allow that to happen should face
defunding.
Senator Scott. Thank you. And my last question. I know that
many of us on my side of the aisle think that DEI is about
power more than it is about anything else. I think diversity
actually is very healthy for our Country.
It is the backbone and the strength of our Country. I think
diversity, equity, inclusion is a political movement that has
very little to do with the advancement of people based on the
merit, based on what they have to offer, and more to do with
about gaining power and political position.
President Trump and I worked a lot on HBCUs, Historically
Black Colleges and Universities. He was able to take that
funding to the highest level in the history of the country. He
was the first President and the only President to make that
funding permanent.
There is no doubt that our Country still struggles with the
issue of race, but one of the shining examples of a merit based
system that helps those who do not have, see the perspective
that the American dream is for them.
I hope that you will commit to continuing the efforts of
President Trump on supporting Historically Black Colleges and
Universities.
Ms. McMahon. Yes. As a matter of fact, I met with the
president of Howard University a week ago and we sat and talked
through a lot of the different programs that are offered there.
And I was very impressed.
I understand that I believe that I am an honorary Board of
Regent member, that may not be the right description, by virtue
of if I am confirmed as the Secretary of Education, and I look
forward to continuing those programs.
Senator Scott. With my last 5 minutes.
[Laughter.]
Senator Marshall. Make it fast.
Senator Scott. Okay, I am done.
Senator Marshall. Thank you, Senator Scott. I see Senator
Hickenlooper jumped in front of the freshman.
Senator Hickenlooper. No, I will yield to the freshman.
Just out of deference to her fresh status.
Senator Marshall. Okay.
Senator Blunt Rochester, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Senator Blunt Rochester. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair and
Mr. Hickenlooper for that sharing of the time.
I will first start out by acknowledging that today here
with us are representatives from the Delaware State Education
Association, and I want to thank them and all of their members
for being here in Washington, but more importantly, for what
they do for the students and families in the State of Delaware.
I also want to thank you, Ms. McMahon, for taking the time
to come and meet with me and talk about a myriad of issues. I
especially appreciated your candor in our meeting. And as I am
sitting here watching the passion of the participants, of the
Members, it is clear that education is so important to this
country.
I am clear eyed about the challenges that we face in
accomplishing the goal of ensuring that all students are able
to be prioritized. I shared my concerns about the call to
abolish the Department. I am particularly concerned as a former
Cabinet Secretary myself, Cabinet Secretaries do have the
influence, the power, the responsibility to share what is good,
what is bad, what is wrong.
I understand waiting until you get into a position to
figure some things out, but there are core basic things like do
we have--the confusion that people have over this Executive
Order on diversity. They are scared. The fact that school kids
are afraid to come to school maybe because of their status.
We are hearing all kinds of stories and that is why this
hearing is so important. That is why this position is so
important. And I am just a little confused because part of the
reason why it was created was because in HEW, children were
buried into these big departments.
Why do you think that a Department that is focused and that
really is dealing with children, whether it is civil rights,
disability, the providing the checks and balances, why do you
think that it is better to stick the functions of dealing with
children with disabilities in a huge department that will not
have the same priority?
Ms. McMahon. Thank you very much, Senator, for that
question. The bottom line is, because it is not working. The
Department of Education was set up in 1980, and since that
time, we have spent almost $1 trillion, and we have watched our
performance scores continue to go down.
I do believe that it is the responsibility to make sure
that our children do have equal access to excellent education.
I think that is best handled at the state level, closest to the
states, working with state administrators, teachers, parents
who should have input into their curriculum.
Senator Blunt Rochester. I have only 2 minutes. And I just
want to follow-up, do you believe that any school benefiting
from taxpayer dollars should be required to follow Federal
civil rights laws?
Ms. McMahon. Schools should be required to follow the laws.
Senator Blunt Rochester. Anybody getting Federal--getting
taxpayer dollars. And so, that is good. So private schools
should not be able to turn away a student with a disability or
a student based on their religion or their ethnicity or race.
Ms. McMahon. Well, private schools have--private schools
aren't taking Federal dollars.
Senator Blunt Rochester. But I am saying----
Ms. McMahon. They have the ability to say that they--if
they do not believe that they----
Senator Blunt Rochester. If they receive then, they should
not.
Ms. McMahon. Well, if they believe that they cannot best
serve that student and they are not taking Federal dollars,
then they have the right not to accept that student.
Senator Blunt Rochester. But I am speaking specifically
when we talk about--there is a lot of conversation about
vouchers. If private schools take Federal dollars, can they
turn away a child based on a disability, or religion, or race?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I think that there are also some public
schools who are saying that they don't have the----
Senator Blunt Rochester. It is really just a yes or no.
Ms. McMahon. No it is not. It really is----
Senator Blunt Rochester. For me--if you want to follow-up,
because I am kind of running out of time.
Ms. McMahon. Okay. I would be happy to follow--and I look
forward to following up with you to discuss that. Thank you
very much.
Senator Blunt Rochester. Okay. Because this is a big--one
of the big concerns that we hear about. Also, I believe that as
a country, as I said, we have benefited from checks and
balances. It is a hallmark.
If you are concerned, how would you defend the rights of
all students if state and local governments are unable or won't
address violations of students' civil rights? For example, how
will you intervene if a student is being bullied or harassed on
the basis of race or disability?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly civil rights are the rights of
everyone. And so, we want to make sure that our schools are
enforcing--bullying shouldn't happen anywhere. No child should
be made to feel uncomfortable. So it is--but the Department of
Education does not control that from Washington.
Senator Blunt Rochester. But would you put this in the
Department--when we talked, you mentioned the Department of
Justice. Would you move this to the Department of Justice?
Ms. McMahon. Well, one of the things that we talked about,
as I said this morning, that I think there may be more
appropriate places that maybe the Department--OCR that is
currently in the Department of Education is better served in
the Department of Justice where they have civil rights
attorneys as well.
But I don't know those things yet. If I am confirmed, I
look forward to getting in and really digesting and
understanding where all of these particular aspects need to fit
to best serve our students. That is the goal, is to protect our
students.
Senator Blunt Rochester. I look forward to following up.
You can understand there is a lot of distrust based on people's
motivations in just the past few weeks. I think that is why you
are seeing all of what you have seen in this audience today in
terms of participation of the folks here.
This is important. Our students are important, as you know.
And so, I really hope that this Administration and that you
will recognize that there are students, there are teachers,
there are parents that need the support and the help. And we
hope that you will continue as well with your support of HBCUs.
Senator Marshall. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Blunt Rochester. I yield back. Thank you so much,
Senator Marshall.
Senator Marshall. Thank you so much. Good morning, Ms.
McMahon. Good to see you.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you. Good to see you too.
Senator Marshall. You bet. Ms. McMahon, when I speak to
youth, I typically talk about the three pillars of my life,
faith, family, and education. And thanks to a strong faith, a
loving family, and the public educators in my life, I was a
first generation college kid who got to live my American dream
and become a physician and practice in rural medicine.
This education thing is so important to all of us on both
sides of the dais. I raised four kids in public schools. And
unfortunately, I have seen the deterioration of the education
system. And again, we have the most incredible teachers and
coaches back home, and I am grateful for all of them, but I
think we would all agree we are going the wrong direction.
Just really big picture, what would be your top priorities?
How do we move--how do we change the ship's direction?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly the President has given a very
clear directive that he would like to look in totality at the
Department of Education and believes that the bureaucracy of it
should be closed. That we should return education to our
states. That the best education is that closest to the kids.
That we should work with our local schools, with our
superintendents, with our parents to make sure that the
education that our students are getting are the ones that is
best for them. It is not one size fits all education policy
throughout the country. Governors have taken great strides in
putting in schools--implementing school choice, making sure
that schools have the funding that they need.
We have seen public education in those states actually
improve. There have been studies to show that. And so, I am
very hopeful that we will get back to the basics of education
so that our children can read when they leave third grade, and
that eighth grade students can do math and reading proficiency.
Today, one-third, only one-third of high school students
graduating can read proficiently. That means two-thirds can't.
We are failing our students--our Department of Education. And
what we are doing today is not working and we need to change
it.
Senator Marshall. Thank you. Ms. McMahon, should boys,
biological boys be allowed to compete against girls in sports?
Ms. McMahon. I do not believe that biological boys should
be able to compete against girls in sports. And I think now
that they certainly not only have the people spoken, because
that was something that President Trump ran very hard on, but
also the court has spoken.
Senator Marshall. Ms. McMahon, I feel like there is a--that
anti-Semitism has become endemic in our universities. Would you
be open to some type of an anti-Semitism commission to evaluate
the progress of the universities on this issue?
Ms. McMahon. Yes, I would. And I would look forward to
perhaps working with you or other Members of the Committee on
such a commission.
Senator Marshall. Okay. Let's talk about workforce Pell
Grants for a second. We can't keep doing what we are doing. The
average starting salary for graduates from our community
colleges and technical colleges back home is higher than our 4
year universities, and their debt is close to zero, if not zero
as well. Would you speak to some more--what do you feel about
more flexibility of Pell Grants?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I certainly would like to see workforce
Pell Grants. And it goes through various stages of getting
passed.
But I definitely think that workforce Pell Grants are
something that could stimulate our economy, provide opportunity
for those who are wanting to participate in skilled based
learning to have the opportunity. If we have short term
certificates of Pell Grants, that would get those students into
the workplace faster, if they want to be electricians, HVAC
developers, or----
Senator Marshall. Apprenticeships as well.
Ms. McMahon. Apprenticeships and internships, all of that.
In fact, in the first Trump administration, I was part of--with
SBA, working with the Department of Labor, of making sure that
there were more apprenticeship programs across the country,
because those are very, very vital to the growth of not only
our economy but our businesses in general.
Senator Marshall. Thank you, Ms. McMahon. I appreciate your
answers and look forward to supporting you. Again, education is
so important to all of us. To live that American dream, we need
a strong education system. And I know you are committed to that
as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
The Chair. Senator Hickenlooper.
Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you,
Ms. McMahon, for your public service and for coming back and
going through all this again.
I thought when you were talking to Senator Blunt Rochester
that your comment that bullying shouldn't happen anywhere
true--is absolutely true. It shouldn't happen in schools. It
shouldn't happen in homes. It shouldn't happen in government.
I am not going to go over--I agree on the things so much--
you have covered anti-Semitism and making sure that there is
great clarity around that. I want to talk a little bit about
history and the teaching of history. I used to talk about
topophilia, which means love of place.
I believe it is a basic building block of economic
development, of people's affection for a place. And that
affection comes largely through the teaching of the history of
that part of your state or your county, however that gets
broken down. But I think teaching every part of our history is
important.
Colorado, some of the worst parts of our history, our
Governor, Ralph Carr, a Republican Governor who was one of the
few Western Governors who when we were putting large detention
facilities together for Japanese Americans during World War--at
the beginning of World War II, he said not only we are not
going to support that, but any Japanese Americans who want to
come, should come to live in Colorado and live freely.
We had the Sand Creek massacre where Colorado volunteers
slaughtered almost 200 mostly women and children. But I think
you mentioned in your testimony that the importance of teaching
true history, and I understand the emphasis on positive, but I
want to make sure that we agree on the teaching of all of it,
both positive and negatives, just because as any--as an
entrepreneur, you learn more from your mistakes than from--what
you do right.
I think making sure that we don't gloss over the troubling
parts of our history is--that we are not letting that slip
behind us.
Ms. McMahon. Well, clearly, I do agree that we should teach
our history, the true history, the good, the bad, and the ugly,
because we don't learn unless we recognize our mistakes.
I will say that the Department of Education does not
establish curriculum, but that is something that is handled at
the state level. But clearly, I am in favor of our history
being taught exactly as it happened.
Senator Hickenlooper. All right. I appreciate that. And it
is funny that a lot of people don't. So it is good to get that
on the record. We talked a little bit about apprenticeships and
the importance of apprenticeships.
I think the comment you made just that almost two-thirds of
our kids when they graduate from high school cannot read
proficiently is a disgrace that we should all not accept. And I
think, as you recognize, it is not that we don't have good
teachers. I think we have great teachers in every state.
It is a very powerful statistic that in almost every
survey, parents think that the school systems are broken except
theirs. They think their school is pretty good. And I think
that is a reflection of the quality of teachers we have. But
this notion that everybody should go to college, I think is
prevalent and persistent.
You have talked about the importance of alternative career
pathways. And when you were in the office, we discussed this.
One of the major issues we hear on trying to push
apprenticeships, not just to trades, not adult apprenticeships
at 18, but 16, 17, 18 year olds while they are in high school,
going and working a couple of days a week in an insurance
company, could be a law firm, anywhere, but learning what a job
place looks like, coming back to school and learning things
that might make them more successful there.
One of the problems is that type of an apprenticeship, so
many of the academic advisers are just focused on that 4 year
college track, and that is what the parents are kind of
expecting. They may not even realize what apprenticeships are
around there.
What can you do as Secretary of Education to share with
high schools all across America that these other alternative
pathways are available?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly I have been on record even
when I ran for the Senate in the State of Connecticut--I ran
twice and didn't win. But I always talked about how we needed
skills in our Country.
That we did not have the trades that we need to have today.
But I also talked about how parents, I think, are encouraging
their children only to go to college and not necessarily
recognizing that there are other avenues that those children
could pursue.
I clearly was a parent who were pushing both my children to
go to college, but I realize today that there are other
opportunities for students to succeed and enter into a pathway
that they will be successful in their lives.
I think apprenticeships, internships, working the public,
private sector to make sure that we have our curriculum that is
designed for the needs of the communities and business. I think
that is incredibly important. That is one of the things that we
have--was driven to do at Sacred Heart University that I sit on
the Board of Education.
What are the needs of the community and how can that
curriculum be structured to satisfy that need? And that is, I
think, critically important.
Senator Hickenlooper. Great. We are out of time. Of course,
I have got millions more questions. Maybe we will continue that
discussion. I appreciate you being open about not wanting to
end the Department of Education completely and not--your
willingness to look at Pell Grants on a larger scale. Thank
you.
The Chair. Senator Banks.
Senator Banks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just as a side
note, I am struck by the outburst of some of the protesters in
the room, and a number of them have told us that they are
teachers.
Can you imagine them teaching--these people teaching our
kids in classrooms across America, and they come here and act
like children with outburst and try to prevent us--in attempt
to prevent us from doing our job to move you forward to do the
important work that you have to do.
For me, that is what this is all about. I have three
daughters who are in grade school in public schools, and I want
to get politics out of the classroom. I want political flags
and political statements and ideologies out of the classroom. I
want teachers to teach our kids and prepare them for the jobs
of the future.
I am very intrigued with what President Trump is talking
about in dismantling the Federal Department of Education
because I have served in the State House and the Indiana State
Constitution devotes a number of chapters to educating our
kids.
The last time I checked, the Federal Constitution doesn't
say a single thing about education because our founders, in
their wisdom, recognized that is a role of the state. And Ms.
McMahon, I know we have talked about this before, but this is
about an attitude.
An attitude of empowering teachers and schools and moms and
dads to give our kids the best chance that they can possibly
have. And I know that you agree with this, but I want to ask
anyway, can't the State of Indiana do a whole lot better of a
job of spending dollars on education rather than bureaucrats in
Washington, DC?
Ms. McMahon. I certainly believe that to be true, Senator,
yes. And that is definitely what the President believes as
well. That I will be repetitive, that education is best handled
closest to the child, to understand what that child needs and
what the community needs. And working with parents, parental
rights are so important in educating our children, and I
definitely believe that should be returned to the states.
Senator Banks. Speaking of wasting money, the Biden
Department of Education allocated over $1 billion in grants
toward diversity, equity and inclusion programs, and that
included $4 million toward a ``culturally responsive computer
science camp for high schoolers.'' $1 million to train
elementary teachers in Iowa on ``equity centered education.''
$38,000 for a 1-day session with an ``equity consultant''
in Michigan. Countless dollars toward race based hiring, which
is unconstitutional and unlawful, by the way. Will you commit
to ending all racial discrimination in government programing at
the Department of Education?
Ms. McMahon. That will be my goal, absolutely, to work--and
I look forward to working with you and other Members of the
Committee as well, and with Congress to make sure that we can
take the ideology, if you will, out of education and focus on
actually teaching our students to read and to write and to do
arithmetic, because they cannot be successful if they cannot do
the basics.
Senator Banks. Some of my colleagues have talked about the
rise of anti-Semitism on college campuses, and I think one of
the motivators of that is money that flows from adversarial
foreign countries like China and other countries with an anti-
American agenda that are donated to many of our colleges and
universities in the United States of America.
It turns out that the Department of Education plays a key
role in reporting and making those foreign donations
transparent. Well, I want to ban them altogether. China should
never be donating money to colleges and universities in Indiana
or anywhere else in the country.
Have you thought about what other steps that we can take to
eliminate foreign influences, especially anti-American
influences, on our college campuses?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I think what we have seen is the lack of
transparency of where the money comes from, how much, and what
it is used for when it gets to colleges. And I think there
absolutely has to be more transparency in tracking that money.
Senator Banks. I hope that I saw what President Trump did
in the first--in his first term and the 4-years of tightening
many of the--these donations and blocking them, making them
transparent.
Then I saw--I served on the Education Committee in the
House for 8 years. So, 4 years of President Trump, 4 years of
President Biden. There was no attention paid to this under
President Biden. Chinese Communist Party dollars flowing to
colleges, universities that are no longer reported, made
transparent.
I hope that--I know that will be a big priority of yours
because we talked about it and I want to do everything I can to
help you block it, make it--the public should know that
adversaries of the United States of America are giving money to
the universities that they are sending their kids to.
Thank you very much for your leadership. You have my full
support. I look forward to working with you. I yield back.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you.
The Chair. Senator Markey.
Senator Markey. Thank you. Yesterday, President Trump said
he would like the Department of Education to be closed
immediately. He called the Department a big con job. Education
funding helps us work toward a country where every student can
go to their school knowing that they will get the same
education as the family that can afford private school. Public
school is not a con job.
It is equality for every student, regardless of income. It
helps guarantee that every student, including the 26 million
low income students, the 10 million rural, 5 million English
language learners, 7 million disabled students, and 1 million
homeless can go to public school knowing they have the same
opportunity as every other student.
Trump's crusade to abolish the Department of Education and
``root out waste and fraud and corruption''--for cuts to public
schools is an attack on every public school student, parent,
teacher, paraprofessional, administrator, and school worker in
this country.
Waste, fraud, and corruption is code for cuts to public
education for all of those students. So I have here the text of
a bill I have been working on. The No Cuts to Public Schools
Act.
This bill would guarantee that Federal funding to public
schools could not be cut during the length of President Trump's
administration. Ms. McMahon, can you commit today to not
cutting funding for public schools in this country?
Ms. McMahon. Well, certainly what I will commit to, sir, is
that funding for schools is appropriated by Congress, and that
funding should continue. Congress will continue to pass those
laws. The Department of Education is not doing that.
Senator Markey. Will you oppose any cuts to public
education, yes or no?
Ms. McMahon. Well, the President is not--he is not saying
that we should cut funding to public education.
Senator Markey. Yes, he is. Yes, he is.
Ms. McMahon. He is simply saying--well, I would disagree
with you----
Senator Markey. Elon Musk yesterday announced he would
immediately cut $900 million from the Department of Education,
and he stood right next to Trump and made that very clear.
The answer I am looking for, by the way, is a yes, I will
fight to make sure that public funding is not cut because that
announcement was just made, the $900 million cut, and we know
that is just a down payment to gut the education of every
public school student in America.
By the way, to find the billions of dollars that are going
to be needed for the tax cuts for billionaires and millionaires
in our Country. They have to go to the Department of Education.
They have to go to clean air and clean water. They have to go
to Medicaid. They have to go to the Affordable Care Act.
They have to go for all--to all of the programs that they
are calling waste, fraud, and corruption, but that is just
another way of saying the programs that help the poor and the
sick and the elderly, the disabled in our society. That is what
we are talking about, because they want all of these programs
gutted to find the funding for the tax breaks.
DOGE, as it is rumbling through the Department of Education
right now, just stands for Department of Gutting Education.
That is what they are doing. They are inside looking at it.
$900 billion is the down payment.
Ms. McMahon, can you commit today to fight so that not $1
from public schools goes toward paying for tax breaks for
millionaires and billionaires?
Ms. McMahon. Well, that was certainly a broad view of what
is going on right now today. We are trying to find waste,
fraud, and abuse. The DOGE groups that are in the Department of
Education, from my understanding, have looked at competitive
contracts that are bidding, and let's see where that money is
going. How is it being spent? I am not there. If I may,
Senator----
Senator Markey. What they are doing----
Ms. McMahon. If you ask me a question, I would really like
the opportunity to answer.
Senator Markey. What they are doing is first, they announce
the cuts. Then they go to find where it is. So it is all
backward. And again, we know what the plot is.
Ultimately, the answer I am looking for is a yes because if
even $1 flows away from an educator or student toward a
billionaire tax break, that will be immoral in our Country--
immoral. These kids deserve the funding which they are
receiving.
Donald Trump and Elon Musk should be ashamed that they are
working harder for billionaires than they are for working
families--for these kids who need help. 90 percent of disabled
students go to public schools.
95 percent of students with disability go to public school.
And Trump and Musk want to take from those students to give to
billionaires. That is immoral. It is wrong. It is unjust. And
we are going to fight it every single step of the way. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair. Thank you. Senator Markey.
Senator Moody.
Senator Moody. Hello. It is so great to be with you. Thank
you for joining us today. I would like for you to have some
time to answer some questions. Wouldn't that be unique? I am
wondering, one of my very first important questions is, is it
harder to sit composed and calm and focused among a bunch of
WWE wrestlers, or is it harder to sit in this hearing with
people popping up and yelling at you all day?
Ms. McMahon. I can stay pretty composed and focused in
either environment.
[Laughter.]
Senator Moody. As you know, United States Department of
Education provides more than $120 billion in grants. And much
of that flows through to our public university systems. And the
Higher Education Act makes a condition for higher education to
receive a single dollar of that money, that higher education
institution has to be accredited.
Now, that is not by the Department of Education. They have
delegated that to a private--private entities of persons that
aren't accountable to voters, aren't accountable to the
President, and they decide who is accredited--which institution
actually is eligible to get all that money.
In Florida, we have had the experience that our post-
secondary institutional accreditor, the Southern Association of
Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges, also known as
SACs, has decided that it will threaten that accreditation,
meaning threaten our Federal funding, if we even suggest that
maybe a former policy leader, lawmaker, conservative, might go
into leadership at a university.
Or one of my dear friends, Senator Scott, former Governor
Scott, had suggested that he was going to go on campus and
speak about hazing. It seems pretty expected. As a parent, I
would want that, and our accreditation was threatened. Even in
North Carolina when they wanted to institute a policy focused
on--or excuse me, a program focused on ideological diversity,
their accreditation was threatened.
As Attorney General of Florida, I sued. I think there is a
Constitutional problem with the Department of Education
delegating that authority to a private organization who
dictates whether someone can get Federal funding and tries to
insert their own preferences and policies down into the
education policies of a state and force it on our educational
institutions. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about
that today.
I don't think it has just frustrated Florida. I think, yes,
we were one of the first states to stand up and fight, and go
to court, and try and stop that. But a lot of the themes that
you are hearing, especially with some of the nominees, were
trying to stop unelected bureaucrats or unelected people and
these private organizations that have been either getting a lot
of authority or a lot of Federal money pushing policies into
the states, and we don't think that's right. So I wanted to
talk to you if--do you think that is right?
Ms. McMahon. No, I don't think that is right.
Senator Moody. If you are confirmed, which I expect that
you will be, and I hope that you are. I am very impressed----
Ms. McMahon. Thank you.
Senator Moody [continuing]. Not only with your--some of
your educational participation in your own state, but your
managerial experience. I think we need that right now. But will
you commit to me that you will look into some of the
regulations and guidance documents that relate to higher
education institutions being able to change their accreditors?
Ms. McMahon. Yes, definitely. And I look forward to working
with you on that. And there has been a lot of issues raised
about these five to seven accreditors that are the ones that
are deciding these fates today, and I think that needs to have
a broad overview and review.
Senator Moody. It may be that we have to look at the
accreditation process. And as Congress, we might need to amend
the Higher Education Act to make them more accountable. But I
do believe, and we are still in litigation in Florida.
I say we--I am trying to change hats now as Senator Moody,
but Florida still in litigation about this issue, because I do
think it is a Constitutional problem for an agency to delegate
that kind of authority over to a private organization.
I think a lot of that delegation is really where you are
seeing states getting frustrated, people getting frustrated,
because in these agencies and in these private organizations,
you are seeing an ideological agenda, a policy driven agenda,
and people that are willing to implement it, whether they have
the authority or not, and I believe that is where you are
seeing so much frustration and why you saw such an overwhelming
expectation that this President change things.
I think you are going to help him do that, and I, for one,
am looking forward to that. Thank you, Chairman.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you. Thank you very much.
The Chair. Thank you, Senator Moody.
Now it is Senator Kim's turn.
Senator Kim. Yes, thank you, Chairman. Thank you for coming
before us. I guess I just wanted to jump in. I have heard a
couple of times you mentioned that you believe that Congress
would need to be involved if there is an effort to abolish the
Department of Education. That is right?
Ms. McMahon. Correct.
Senator Kim. Do you know if President Trump shares that
sentiment?
Ms. McMahon. I have heard President Trump recently over the
last couple of weeks--in conjunction with his fervor to shut
down the bureaucracy of the Department of Education, he has
also stated that he will work with Congress to make that
happen.
Senator Kim. Do you know if Elon Musk has had any
conversations with him about the Department of Education--him
or his team?
Ms. McMahon. I have not.
Senator Kim. Why I raise this is that I just came from
another hearing that was talking about foreign assistance,
talking about USAID.
USAID is another element of our Federal Government that was
codified by Congress, and we see an effort there to dismantle
it. Not fully abolish it but dismantle it basically down to
about 600 people. Gut everything.
Put it under the State Department. So I guess, I wanted to
just ask you, if something like that was proposed by the Trump
administration for the Department of Education, does that have
to come to Congress?
Ms. McMahon. Certainly there are departments that I believe
that are in the Department of Education by statute, and those
have to be looked at.
Senator Kim. What elements of the Department of Education
are those that are protected by statute?
Ms. McMahon. I believe IDEA is. I think Title I is. And I
would like to discuss that--look into it and discuss it more
fully with you.
Senator Kim. But for those that are not codified by
statute, you are saying those are ones that the executive
branch can do as they please?
Ms. McMahon. Well, I think that I would like to look into
that more.
Senator Kim. Why I kind of mentioned this as well is that
just in the first couple of weeks here we had a lot of
conversation about the surge of anti-Semitism, our strong
support, and make sure we are protecting students from that
type of harassment, from that type of intimidation.
Absolutely something we need to stand against in terms of
anti-Semitism. But I guess I was alarmed because what we ended
up seeing is there are multiple attorneys and other staff
members of the Department's Office of Civil Rights that have
been placed on administrative leave with no notice, no
explanation.
Some of them were in the process of investigating cases
directly related to anti-Semitic harassment. So I guess I
wanted to just ask you, is that something you would support? Do
you think that is the right actions that we should be taking at
this time that we see such a surge in anti-Semitism?
Ms. McMahon. Well, Senator Kim, I know that it is not a
great comfort for me to say this morning that I am not yet
confirmed, have not yet been in the Department. I don't know
about all the administrative people that have been put on
leave.
I want to look into that. I want to understand it. I want
to assess the Department. I can't do that unless I am
confirmed, and I get there. But I would certainly be willing to
come back to you with a more specific answer.
Senator Kim. But does that concern you at all if--when
you--if you were confirmed, would you make that a priority to
go and see whether or not this is going to impact our ability
to respond to the anti-Semitism?
Ms. McMahon. No, I would want to make sure that we have
everything that we need to have in place to protect our
students on campuses.
Senator Kim. One thing that we see in having this debate on
here in Congress is about this, and what we have seen is that
Republicans have called for a 25 percent cut in the budget of
the Office of Civil Rights. Is that something you would
support?
Ms. McMahon. I would--again, I would want to see exactly
what that impact is going to be and understand it.
Senator Kim. Look, I guess I just, I am frustrated because
I feel like this is such a clear place where we can just say,
yes, we want to make sure we have as much resources as possible
to be able to fight anti-Semitism, to make sure that we are
addressing these needs. Such a surge--when we see a surge in
anti-Semitism, of course, we would want a surge in resources to
focus on that.
I just wanted to raise that because this whole debate that
we are having right now, it feels like it is untethered from
just the reality on the ground. And I just urge you, if you are
confirmed, that we are understanding the human impact of the
problems that are here. I have a second grader and a fourth
grader. I have got two little boys. And I just had their
parent-teacher conference.
Yes, we talked through the performance of my kids, the data
that NAEP and others are using, the Institute for Education
Science, and now we are seeing $900 million cuts to that coming
out from Elon Musk and his team. But I just raise this is--the
reason why teachers are concerned right now.
It is not about their own salaries and their own careers.
When they talk to me, they talk about the kids. They talk about
the kids. That is like--I find that to be so powerful when
these teachers, they are saying, look, like I am not asking
about my own career.
I am asking about the kids. So just as you proceed, just
remember that. Parents are very scared right now. And I yield.
The Chair. Thank you, Senator Kim.
Senator Alsobrooks.
Senator Alsobrooks. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I
would like to just begin my remarks--hello. Thank you so much,
Ms. McMahon, for being here today. And I would like to just
begin to follow-up with what my colleague said and address what
I regard as very disparaging comments, I would just like to say
first, by one of my colleagues regarding the educators who have
come here today.
In the same vein as Senator Kim, the educators who are
here, my colleague referred to them as these people, and said,
who would want to be taught by these people. The passionate
educators who have come here today, not on behalf of
themselves, they are here on behalf of our children, and I want
to address how shameful it was to say who would want to be
taught by them.
They are exactly the kind of people who we want teaching
our children. The question I have for you today, I know your
parents were civil servants and so you recognize the importance
that they bring to their work, the care and concern that they
bring to their work. And I have been very concerned regarding
the treatment of many of our civil servants, those especially
in the Department of Education.
You may know that last night a number of them were laid off
with 15 minutes to have their computers turned off, access to
it. Just treated really horribly. So the question I have for
you, because one of my constituents on a town hall I hosted
last night with 17,000 Marylanders, said that they are working
in a culture of fear at the Department, and that civil servants
at the Department don't know who will be fired next, have
little guidance, and feel like they can't do their jobs--and
they care very much about the work they are doing.
How will you address the culture of fear in an environment
where civil servants, both Democrats and Republicans, who are
working that are feeling undervalued and attacked by this
Administration?
Ms. McMahon. Well, thank you very much for that question,
Senator. And it is always difficult to downsize. It is always
difficult to restructure and reorganize in any department. I
have faced that in the business world, because you know what
you do impact people's lives.
But at this particular point, I know that there are people
that have been placed on administrative leave, which means they
are still receiving full benefits and salary while their jobs
are being looked at and how the Department is being evaluated
overall.
I think people should always be treated with respect and
with humility, and I would hope that is what is going on within
the Department of Education. I am not there in person to see
that yet, but it would certainly be something that I would
strive to do in any reorganization that we would take.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. And I would also like to ask you,
regarding the President's targeting of legally binding
collective bargaining agreements. He has really targeted those.
To ask you whether you will commit to abiding by the agreement
in upholding civil service employment protections?
Ms. McMahon. I will certainly commit to working with you
and to looking into those issues if I am confirmed to be the
Secretary of Education.
Senator Alsobrooks. Also to ask you whether you will commit
to ensuring that Federal workers with disabilities--many of
them are very concerned about whether they will continue to
have reasonable accommodations as required by law.
Ms. McMahon. Well, as required by law is the key phrase
there. Yes.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. Well, in the same vein, there are
some who are concerned about being forced now to reapply for
accommodations.
These are people who have had those accommodations given to
them and they are being told now that they must reapply for
those accommodations with their supervisors. And so, will you
commit that the Department's civil servants with disabilities
will have their reasonable accommodations honored without
interference or delay?
Ms. McMahon. I will certainly commit time there and if
confirmed to look into all of those and to get back to you.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. And finally, I would like to ask
you, regarding the freezing of funds, if you are confirmed,
would you support any directive from the President to freeze
funds that have been appropriated by Congress, including funds
that students and families rely on to pay for college?
Ms. McMahon. If they have been appropriated by Congress,
those funds should be disseminated.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. And so, you would block any
directive--you would not adhere to any directive, including
some of our HBCU's in my state, Bowie, Coppin State, Morgan
State, you would not interfere with the freezing of those
funds?
Ms. McMahon. I would commit to you that I will look into
every single one of those programs so that I can get back to
you and say, this is what I have found. This is what I have
discovered. This is what--the action that is being taken
against it or in--for it, because I want to be very inclusive
with you on that regard.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. Final question. I just have 9
seconds here--Title I. I know that you said you support it. If
the Department of Education is dismantled, what will you do to
protect the students who rely, who are disadvantaged and
impoverished, on Title I funds.
Ms. McMahon. Well, Title I funds are appropriated by
Congress. They flow directly to the states today. They go to
the State Department of Education and are deployed to the
districts. So the Department of Education is not really
involved in that distribution.
Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. Thank you so much.
The Chair. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Alsobrooks.
Senator Sanders.
Senator Sanders. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous
consent to enter into the record 18 letters opposing Ms.
McMahon as Secretary of Education.
[The following information can be found on page 265 in
Additional Material:]
The Chair. So ordered. I will now conclude but let me first
say that the Capitol Police are requesting that the audience
remain seated until Ms. McMahon leaves. So just to first say
that.
Ms. McMahon, thank you very much for being here. You have
handled yourself extremely well. I now ask for unanimous
consent to enter into the record 55 letters of support for Ms.
McMahon's nomination.
[The following information can be found on page 345 in
Additional Material:]
The Chair. This concludes our hearing. For any Senators who
wish to ask additional questions, questions for the record will
be due tomorrow at 5.00 p.m.. Once more, audience, please stay
seated until Ms. McMahon leaves. Thank you.
Ms. McMahon. Thank you very much.
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
[all]