[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
IN THEIR CORNER: CREATING MORE
OPPORTUNITIES FOR AMERICAN BOXERS
=======================================================================
HEARING
Before The
SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS
of the
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, DECEMBER 4, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-36
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Workforce
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via: edworkforce.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
64-314PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE
TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Chairman
JOE WILSON, South Carolina ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT,
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina Virginia,
GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania Ranking Member
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JAMES COMER, Kentucky MARK TAKANO, California
BURGESS OWENS, Utah ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan MARK DeSAULNIER, California
MARY E. MILLER, Illinois DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana LUCY McBATH, Georgia
KEVIN KILEY, California JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan
ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington JOHN W. MANNION, New York
MARK HARRIS, North Carolina ADELITA S. GRIJALVA, Arizona
MARK B. MESSMER, Indiana
RANDY FINE, Florida
R.J. Laukitis, Staff Director
Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON WORKFORCE PROTECTIONS
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MARK B. MESSMER, Indiana ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota,
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin Ranking Member
JAMES COMER, Kentucky HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan
MARY E. MILLER, Illinois GREG CASAR, Texas
RANDY FINE, Florida MARK TAKANO, California
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on December 4, 2025................................. 1
OPENING STATEMENTS
Mackenzie, Hon. Ryan, Chairman, Subcommittee on Workforce
Protections................................................ 1
Prepared statement of.................................... 14
Omar, Hon. Ilhan, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Workforce
Protections................................................ 16
Prepared statement of.................................... 18
WITNESSES
Jack, Hon. Brian, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Georgia................................................. 20
Prepared statement of.................................... 22
Horsford, Hon. Steven, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Nevada............................................ 26
Prepared statement of.................................... 29
Epstein, Mr. Lawrence, Senior Executive Vice President and
Chief Operating Officer, Ultimate Fighting Chamionship..... 31
Prepared statement of.................................... 33
Ali, Mrs. Lonnie, Widow of Muhammad Ali and Cofounder,
Muhammad Ali Center........................................ 39
Prepared statement of.................................... 42
English, Mr. Patrick, Principal, Partner, and Owner, Dines
and English, LLC........................................... 44
Prepared statement of.................................... 46
Foster, Mr. Andy, Executive Officer, California State
Athletic Commission........................................ 50
Prepared statement of.................................... 52
ADDITIONAL SUBMISSIONS
Chairman Mackenzie:
Letter of support dated December 3, 2025, from the
International Brotherhood of Teamsters................. 4
Letter of support dated October 25, 2025, from Mike Tyson 5
Letter of support dated August 26, 2025, from the
Association of Boxing Commissions...................... 6
Letter of support dated November 5, 2025, from TGB
Promotions, LLC........................................ 8
Letter of support dated October 17, 2025, from PPG Paints
Arena.................................................. 10
Letter of support dated October 17, 2025, from Chartway
Arena.................................................. 12
Letter of support dated October 21, 2025, from the
California State Athletic Commission................... 93
Letter of support dated October 20, 2025, from Anschutz
Entertainment Group, Inc. (AEG)........................ 95
Letter of support dated October 20, 2025, from Dr. Paul
Wallace................................................ 97
Letter from Cory Rapacz, Rapacz Boxing, LLC.............. 99
Letter of support dated October 14, 2025, from MGM
Resorts................................................ 101
Letter of support dated September 3, 2025, from Loyola
Marymount University................................... 103
Letter of support dated October 20, 2025, from Madison
Square Garden Entertainment............................ 104
Letter dated November 18, 2025, from 313 Presents........ 106
Letter of support from Skipper Kelp...................... 108
Letter of support dated October 13, 2025, from State Farm
Arena.................................................. 109
Letter of support dated September 9, 2025, from Sports
Medicine Research & Testing Laboratory (SMRTL)......... 111
Letter of support dated October 29, 2025, from Georgia
Athletic and Entertainment Commission.................. 113
Letter dated October 15, 2025, from Legends Global....... 115
Ranking Member Omar:
Article dated November 15, 2025, from the Las Vegas
Review-Journal, entitled ``Commentary: UFC Should Be
Investigated, Not Granted New Privileges''............. 72
Article dated November 2, 2025, from The Wall Street
Journal, entitled ``Lawmakers and MMA Threaten Boxing--
A New Bill Claims to Be an Extension of the Muhammad
Ali Act, but It's Bad for Fighters''................... 74
A Tweet by Nico Ali Walsh................................ 76
Article dated September 15, 2025, from Bad Left Hook,
entitled `` `It Would Be a Tragedy': Bob Arum Doesn't
Want To See Ali Act Amended''.......................... 77
Letter dated December 3, 2025, from Robert Arum, Top
Rank, Inc.............................................. 78
Open letter dated December 3, 2025, from the Mixed
Martial Arts Fighters Association (MMAFA).............. 80
Letter dated November 12, 2025, from Carlos ``the Ronin''
Newton................................................. 85
Letter dated December 3, 2025, from Sara McMann.......... 87
Number of Fights in U.S. from BoxRec..................... 88
Letter dated December 3, 2025, from Rob Maysey, Founder
of MMAFA............................................... 90
QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Responses to questions submitted for the record by:
Mr. Patrick C. English................................... 118
Mr. Lawrence Epstein..................................... 126
Mr. Andy Foster.......................................... 137
IN THEIR CORNER: CREATING MORE
OPPORTUNITIES FOR AMERICAN BOXERS
----------
Thursday, December 4, 2025
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Workforce Protections,
Committee on Education and Workforce,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:55 a.m., in
Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ryan Mackenzie
(Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Mackenzie, Messmer, Grothman,
Comer, Miller, Fine, Walberg, Allen, Omar, and Scott.
Staff present: Vlad Cerga, Director of Information
Technology; Halle Greenbaum, Staff Assistant; Trey Kovacs,
Director of Workforce Policy; Campbell Ladd, Clerk; R.J.
Laukitis, Staff Director; Danny Marca, Director of Information
Technology; Brad Mannion, Professional Staff Member; John
Martin, Deputy Director of Workforce Policy/Counsel; Audra
McGeorge, Communications Director; Ethan Pann, Deputy Press
Secretary and Digital Director; Kane Riddell, Legislative
Assistant; Sara Robertson, Press Secretary; Katherine Anne
Russo, Director of Member Services and Coalitions; Heidi
Schneider, Professional Staff Member; Ann Vogel, Director of
Operations; Thomas White, Deputy Clerk; James Whittaker,
General Counsel; Damian Arambula, Minority Intern; Ilana
Brunner, Minority General Counsel; Natalie Glezen, Minority
Running Start Fellow; Scott Estrada, Minority Professional
Staff; Bob Shull, Minority Senior Labor Policy Counsel; Raiyana
Malone, Minority Press Secretary; Kevin McDermott, Minority
Director of Labor Policy; Marie McGrew, Minority Press
Assistant; Eleazar Padilla, Minority Staff Assistant; and
Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director.
Chairman Mackenzie. This Subcommittee on Workforce
Protections will come to order. I note that a quorum is
present.
Without objection, the chair is authorized to call a recess
at any time.
I appreciate everybody's willingness to hang with us here
because we were conducting votes on the floor, but we have a
very exciting hearing today. The topic of today's hearing is to
examine the current State of the boxing industry and show how
H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, can
help usher in a new golden age for the sport.
For most of the 20th century, boxing stood at the heart of
American sports and culture. It gave us legends like Jack
Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jack Dempsey, and Muhammad Ali,
and I should also note, from the Seventh congressional District
in Pennsylvania, Larry Holmes. We recognize exceptional boxers
like world champion Christy Martin, who was elected to the
International Boxing Hall of Fame in the first year that women
were on the ballot. We also honor more recent champions like
the great English boxer Ricky ``The Hitman'' Hatton, whose
untimely passing reminds us of the lasting bond between
fighters and the fans across the world.
These boxers were champions in the ring and icons outside
of it. Boxing has long been a symbol of grit, determination,
and the will to overcome impossible odds, qualities that are at
the heart of the American spirit.
Today we must face a hard truth. Boxing is failing to meet
the high standards of American sports. What was once a
respected and unified sport became fragmented, plagued by
inconsistent standards, weak enforcement, and a troubling lack
of accountability. Too often, fighters are pushed into
dangerous matches without proper medical oversight. The result
is a system that too frequently exploits the athletes instead
of protecting them. That is why, again, it is a very
appropriate topic for our Subcommittee on Workforce
Protections.
All of that must change. Professional boxing needs clear,
consistent standards that safeguards fighters' health and
restores integrity to the profession. As we learn more about
the long-term dangers of CTE and performance-enhancing
substances, we should honor fighters' courage with a system
that protects their health and safeguards the sport. That is
the purpose of H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act.
Building on the foundation of the Professional Boxing
Safety Act of 1996, this bipartisan legislation will bring real
change to the sport by putting fighters first. This bill
establishes Unified Boxing Organizations, or UBOs, to set
uniform safety and fairness standards. Under these
organizations, boxers would receive regular medical exams and
routine MRI screenings with additional precautions for boxers
over 40. Medical personnel will be present at every match. A
strict, transparent anti-doping policy will also be enforced.
This bill would set new industrywide standards for medical
insurance coverage and set a floor for per-round pay for
boxers. Whether a boxer competes inside or outside a UBO, fair
pay and medical protection will no longer be optional. They
will be the standard.
This is about rebuilding trust, protecting athletes, and
reigniting the passion that once made boxing a cornerstone of
American life. More importantly, it is about ensuring the sport
does not sacrifice the health and dignity of its athletes.
Boxing can be great again. It can inspire, uplift, and unify.
H.R. 4624 can help revive a proud tradition while ensuring
every fighter, from the first bell to the final round, is
treated with dignity and respect.
This is great legislation, and I want to commend those who
are joining us here today as champions of this legislation in
Congress. You and the work that you are doing embodies
America's fighting spirit, and this administration, President
Trump, and this Congress--who are all fighting to make America
great again--want to join you in starting with that work and
improving our boxing system right here in the United States.
We also would like to enter into the record six letters in
support of H.R. 4624 for the following organizations and
individuals: The International Brotherhood of Teamsters; boxing
champion, Mike Tyson; the Association of Boxing Commissions;
Tom Brown, president of TGB Promotions; PPG Paints Arena, the
home of the Pittsburgh Penguins; and also Chartway Arena in
Virginia.
[The information referred to follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Mackenzie. Again, I want to thank everybody for
being here, not only my colleagues who are going to give brief
testimony, but also our panelists.
With that, I yield back to the ranking member for an
opening statement.
[The prepared statement of Chairman Mackenzie follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Ms. Omar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our
witnesses for your testimony today.
When Republicans first noticed us of today's hearing, I was
immediately excited. I have long been a fan of professional
boxing and mixed martial arts, and I was hopeful that we could
have a bipartisan discussion about revitalizing a sport that I
love. I came to this issue not as a legislator but as someone
who admires the courage and the craft of fighters who put their
bodies on the line in the pursuit of greatness.
At the turn of the century, Congress passed two landmark
pieces of legislation to protect and support American boxers.
In 1996, Congress passed the Professional Boxing Safety Act, or
PBSA, which outlined the health and safety provisions and
mandated the State athletic commissions to oversee all
professional boxing events.
In 2000, Congress strengthened PBSA with the Muhammad Ali
Boxing Reform Act. The Ali Act was designed to clean up the
business side of boxing after decades of corruption that harmed
boxers' livelihoods and integrity of the sport. It required
better financial disclosures, increased transparency of ranking
and title decisions, and limited conflicts of interest so that
a single company or individual could not do--could not both
control a boxer's contract and access to titles. This was meant
to stop promoters from demanding that boxers sign away their
entire career just to have a chance at a title. In practice,
the Ali Act's provisions helped give boxers more information
and leverage to negotiate for a fairer share of the money that
their fights generated and free themselves from any coercive
and restrictive contract terms.
We should build on these successes and take time to explore
other critical issues, such as the long-term cost of brain
injury and the need for athletes in other combat sports like
MMA to enjoy these protections. My hope is that we can use this
hearing to discuss these issues thoughtfully and productively.
However, my fear is that we are likely to focus on just one
bill, H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act,
and consider moving it quickly, but I urge my colleagues to
take a moment to pause and hold two things in our minds at
once.
First, there are some genuinely promising provisions in the
Revival Act. For example, a national $150-per-round minimum
payment would lessen financial strain on boxers who are still
finding their footing in the sport. The bill would also set a
national $25,000 floor for insurance coverage that the PBSA
currently requires for every fight.
Unfortunately, there are sections of the Revival Act that
raise serious questions about who will actually control the
future of boxing. It would remove guardrails that prevent
influential promoters from controlling the industry and forcing
boxers into contracts that they do not benefit from. This
legislation could also allow major corporations to completely
take over the sport, leaving boxers without the leverage or the
ability to advocate for themselves and their physical and
financial health. These provisions prioritize Goliath to the
detriment of David.
Boxers who put their bodies on the line deserve to fight in
an industry that pays them well, values their health and
safety, and does not make them vulnerable to economic
exploitation. While I do not entirely--while not entirely
harmful, this bill, as crafted, gives more power to promoters
and big corporations than to boxers. This is why many
professional boxers are speaking out against it, including
Evander Holyfield, Oscar De La Hoya, Claressa Shields, Jake
Paul, and Nico Ali Walsh.
I am not here to reflexively support or oppose H.R. 4624. I
am here to ask important questions to everyone involved--the
promoters, the regulators, and especially the corporations that
stand to gain the most--because we have to make sure that any
revival of boxing does not come at the expense of the very
athletes we say we are here to protect. I want this hearing to
be the start of a longer, serious bipartisan conversation about
how we support our boxers and bring investment into sport
without sacrificing the necessary antimonopoly firewalls that
prevent American boxers from being exploited by powerful
corporate actors and foreign investors.
I look forward to our discussion today, and I yield.
[The prepared statement of Ranking Member Omar follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you to the ranking member.
It is a pleasure to be joined by a bipartisan duo of our
colleagues, and we look forward to sharing the bipartisan
spirit that they are bringing to us as we actually move forward
with this legislation.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(c), all members can insert
written testimony and statements into the record and may do so
by submitting them to the committee electronically in Microsoft
Word by 5 p.m., 14 days after this hearing.
Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for
14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous materials
noted during the hearing to be submitted to the official
record.
I note that some of our colleagues who are not permanent
members of the subcommittee may be waiving on for the purposes
of today's hearing.
With that, I will introduce our two panelists. First, we
have Congressman Brian Jack, who represents Georgia's Third
congressional District. Our second witness is Congressman
Steven Horsford, who represents Nevada's Fourth congressional
District. We appreciate both of you being here today. You are
fully aware of the procedures and testimony and the lighting
system and timing. I do not need to go into that.
With that, we will recognize Representative Jack.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. BRIAN JACK, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF GEORGIA
Mr. Jack. Chairman Mackenzie, Ranking Member Omar, Chairman
Walberg, Ranking Member Scott, Chairman Comer, and
Representatives Messmer, Grothman, Miller, Fine, Stevens,
Allen, Casar, and Takano, thank you for welcoming my testimony
today.
I am honored to submit H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American
Boxing Revival Act, for your consideration. I authored and
introduced this legislation--which is bipartisan--with
Representative Sharice Davids, a talented athlete and a chief
deputy whip within the House Democratic Caucus.
Professional boxing in America has an incredibly rich and
storied history. It is a sport that demands courage,
perseverance, and determination from its champions, and its
heroes have inspired greatness, ignited dreams, and forged
generations of memories and tradition.
Thirty 9 years before Jackie Robinson bravely broke
barriers in Major League Baseball, Jack Johnson, the Galveston
Giant, reigned as the first Black heavyweight champion of the
world from 1908 to 1915. Decades before the New York Knicks
were formed, thousands of spectators crammed into Madison
Square Garden to see Jack Dempsey fight. Many of you may recall
storied bouts during boxing's golden era, like Leon Spinks
versus Muhammad Ali in 1978, Marvin Hagler versus Thomas Hearns
in 1985, and Mike Tyson's championship fights in the 1990's.
Unfortunately, American boxing has since faced a steady
decline. Thirty 7 years have passed since an American won a
heavyweight gold medal at the Olympics, and the majority of
boxing's premier fights are now overseas many, many time zones
away. In recent years, HBO World Championship Boxing and
Showtime Championship Boxing, long home to the greatest fights,
ceased operations. Just a few months ago, ESPN's contract with
a leading boxing promotion ended without renewal.
Today, we submit legislation before you that will fix
boxing's downturn and revive this great American sport. For
over a century, individual States enacted legislation to
regulate professional boxing, but the patchwork of regulations
without uniform minimum standards led to widespread
exploitation and rampant corruption. Since the 1950's, Congress
has considered legislation to address these problems, and after
multiple attempts in the 1990's, Congress finally acted,
passing the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996 and the
Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act in 2000. As a result, boxing is
the only professional sport regulated by Congress. The Muhammad
Ali American Boxing Revival Act amends the Professional Boxing
Safety Act of 1996 and preserves and protects the original Ali
Act in its entirety.
First, our legislation clarifies ambiguities in current law
that have stifled innovation and investment into this sport.
This bill allows for the creation of alternative systems,
called Unified Boxing Organizations, otherwise known as UBOs,
that will provide professional boxers with more protections,
better pay, and greater protections. The UBO system will not
replace the current structure involving sanctioning
organizations. Instead, UBOs will be a separate, parallel
system to the sanctioning organizations that will provide
boxers with the freedom to choose which of the two systems
works best for them. Additionally, this bill will return
premier boxing events to our country, spurring economic growth
and success across those communities.
For this reason, the operators of many of America's
greatest venues endorse this bipartisan legislation, including
State Farm Arena in Atlanta, Georgia; Madison Square Garden in
New York City, New York; Target Center and U.S. Bank Stadium in
Minneapolis, Minnesota; Little Caesars Arena in Detroit,
Michigan; Crypto.com Arena in Los Angeles, California; Moody
Center in Austin, Texas; and Chartway Arena in Norfolk,
Virginia. Just yesterday, this legislation received a letter of
support from the 1.3 million members of the International
Brotherhood of Teamsters, one of America's largest unions.
To improve the safety and well-being of boxers, this
legislation establishes a minimum payment per round of $150 for
professional boxers, aligning the patchwork of existing State
laws to a uniform standard that will protect boxers from
exploitation, especially in the early stages of their career.
Additionally, this act strengthens existing health and safety
protections for boxers to extend their careers and earning
potential.
Finally, to safeguard the integrity of the sport, this
legislation implements strict anti-betting policies and
restricts UBOs from charging boxers' fees for placement in
rankings or participation in championship matches. Sadly,
earlier this week, super middleweight champion of the world
Terence ``Bud'' Crawford was stripped of his championship belt
for allegedly failing to pay fees to the sanctioning
organization. Our legislation prohibits this practice for
boxers who elect to join a UBO.
In closing, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act
provides us with a chance to make history. Once enacted, this
legislation will be celebrated for decades to come. Let us join
together in a spirit of bipartisanship and revive one of
America's greatest sports in the name of one of America's
greatest athletes, Muhammad Ali. I yield back.
[The prepared statement of Representative Jack follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Our second witness is Congressman Steven Horsford, and we
will now turn to you.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. STEVEN HORSFORD, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEVADA
Mr. Horsford. Thank you to the Workforce Protection
Subcommittee Chair, Mr. Mackenzie, and to the ranking member,
Ms. Omar, and to the full committee chair, Mr. Walberg, and the
ranking member, Mr. Scott, as well as all the other members for
allowing me to testify along with my colleague before this
Subcommittee today in support of creating more opportunities
for American boxers. I will keep my remarks brief, but I am
here in support.
Why am I here today? That answer is simple. Las Vegas is
the undisputed fight capital of the world, and our community
knows better than most what boxing means. Many of the sports'
most iconic bouts took place under the neon glow of the Nevada
desert. I remember the legendary Hagler-Hearns fight at Caesars
Palace in 1985, the fight that electrified the Nation and
showcased boxing at its very best.
This sport is woven into the fabric and culture of the
Silver State. Its intertwined history dates back to March 17,
1897, when Nevada hosted the very first legalized boxing match
in the United States. That heritage continues to grow stronger
with every event. In fact, as of 2023, researchers at the
University of Nevada, Las Vegas, estimated that one in four
workers in Las Vegas and nearly 30 percent of the city's GDP is
tied to recreation and entertainment services, including
sports.
Out-of-town visitors attending sporting events generated
nearly $2 billion in direct economic output in Fiscal Year 2022
for our community. UNLV forecasts more than 12 percent growth
in performing arts and spectator sports industries by 2030.
That is 3,000 new and permanent jobs. In other words, when
sports thrive, Nevada's economy thrives, and thousands of
workers feel the impact.
It has now been 25 years since Congress enacted the
original Ali Act to confront corruption, exploitation, and
dangerous gaps in boxing. That landmark law made a meaningful
difference, but the world of professional boxing has changed
dramatically since its passage. Today, in this room, we have an
obligation to evaluate where the system is working and where it
is clearly falling short for fighters, and that is why H.R.
4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act, is so
important.
This bill allows a new, modernized business model to exist
alongside the current sanctioning body system, a system that
many across the sport agree is not adequately serving boxers or
fans. H.R. 4624 creates room for innovation, competition, and
expanded opportunities. It establishes a new pathway that can
increase stability, elevate safety standards, and ultimately
give fighters more control over their career. These reforms
move the sport in the right direction.
At the same time, I want to be candid. The bill is not
perfect, and there are areas that deserve a closer look. These
concerns should be part of the bipartisan dialog as the
legislation moves forward. I urge all of you, together with
Representative Jack and myself and the bill's other cosponsors,
to listen closely today to the expert panel of witnesses and to
identify what works and pinpoint areas that need refinement. By
doing so, we can craft a final product that strengthens
protections for boxers while fostering a healthier, more
competitive boxing landscape. congressional action transformed
professional boxing a generation ago. Today, we have the
opportunity and the responsibility to act again. If we do so
thoughtfully, collaboratively, and with a commitment to the
athletes at the center of the sport, we can help usher in a
revival worthy of Muhammad Ali's name and legacy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
[The prepared statement of Representative Horsford
follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you to Congressman Jack and
Horsford for coming to testify before the Subcommittee on
Workforce Protections today as we discuss H.R. 4624, the
Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. We share your
interest in fostering greater investment and innovation in
American boxing. Ultimately, we know that will lead to greater
competition, more people involved, and increasing the abilities
of American boxers. This legislation and this hearing is just
the start of our efforts to make American boxing great again,
and we appreciate you being here today.
With that, we will now seat the second panel, and we will
pause for a minute as the panel gets situated. I will ask those
witnesses to come forward at this time.
All right. Well, now that the second panel of witnesses has
been seated, I want to welcome all of you.
Our first witness is Mr. Lawrence Epstein, senior executive
vice president and chief operating officer of the Ultimate
Fighting Championship from Las Vegas, Nevada.
Our second witness is Mrs. Lonnie Ali, widow of Muhammad
Ali and cofounder of the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville--or
from Louisville, Kentucky.
Our third witness is Mr. Patrick English, the principal
partner and owner of Dines and English LLC from Clifton, New
Jersey.
Our final witness is Mr. Andy Foster, the executive officer
of the California State Athletic Commission from Sacramento,
California.
Again, welcome to all of you. We want to thank you for
being here, and we look forward to your testimony.
I should note that, pursuant to committee rules, I will ask
each of you to limit your oral testimony to a 3-minute summary
of written testimony, which you have provided. As committee
members may have questions for each of you, the clock will
count down from 3 minutes. Pursuant to committee rule 8(d), the
committee practice, however, is not to cutoff any individual
and their testimony until you reach the 5-minute mark.
I would also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of
their responsibility to provide accurate information to the
subcommittee.
With that, I will recognize our first witness today. Mr.
Epstein, you are recognized for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF LAWRENCE EPSTEIN, SENIOR EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT
AND CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, ULTIMATE FIGHTING CHAMPIONSHIP,
LAS VEGAS, NEVADA
Mr. Epstein. Thank you very much, Chairman Mackenzie,
Ranking Member Omar, and distinguished members of the
subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before
you today to discuss H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American
Boxing Revival Act.
My name is Lawrence Epstein. I am the senior executive vice
president and chief operating officer of the UFC, the world's
premier mixed martial arts organization. I have worked in
combat sports for nearly three decades, first as a private
practice lawyer representing clients across combat sports and
now as an executive with the UFC, where we have spent many
years and invested billions of dollars building a global sport
that has benefited thousands of athletes, many local
communities, and hundreds of millions of fans.
I deliver these remarks today as a proud boxing fan. My
father first introduced me to the sport in its golden era of
the 1970's and 1980's when I watch watched American boxing
legends like Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Sugar Ray Leonard, and
Marvelous Marvin Hagler captivate millions of fans with their
otherworldly courage, determination, and athleticism. I am
honored to sit here today alongside Lonnie Ali, cofounder of
the Muhammad Ali Center and guardian of Muhammad's legacy, to
discuss our support of this legislation.
It is undeniable that professional boxing has suffered a
steady decline in popularity in the United States. The sport's
evolution and growth have been stifled, reducing opportunities
for boxers and undermining the fan experience. The Muhammad Ali
American Boxing Revival Act can reverse this decline by
creating a new space for an innovative model that will enhance
and grow the industry and create more choices and opportunities
for boxing.
This bill establishes a framework for alternative systems
called Unified Boxing Organizations, or UBOs, which would
provide professional boxers with more career opportunities,
better pay, and greater health and safety protections. UBOs
would not replace--I want to repeat this--UBOs would not
replace sanctioning organizations. Instead, UBOs would exist as
a separate, parallel system. Boxers would have the freedom to
choose between the two systems: the sanctioning organization
model that currently exists or the UBO model. Whatever one is
best for them, they will be able to choose.
UBO boxers would benefit from additional health and safety
protections, including enhanced comprehensive medical exams,
more licensed physicians and ambulance units present at each
event, and--perhaps most importantly--health coverage for
injuries sustained during training, which corrects a massive
deficiency in the current system.
UBOs would also offer independently administered anti-
doping programs with no-notice testing both in and out of
competition to ensure that no boxer has an unfair and dangerous
advantage over his or her opponent. UBOs would also maintain
strict anti-betting policies to safeguard the integrity of
competition.
Beyond UBOs, this bill would also provide benefits to
boxers fighting in the sanctioning organization system. The
bill establishes a national minimum payment of $150 per round
for all professional boxers. The Association of Boxing
Commissions believes this change will help boxers since six
States have minimums less than $150 per round, while most
States have absolutely no minimum at all.
Last, through this legislation, all professional boxers
would have access to better health insurance, including a
first-time national minimum of $25,000 of coverage for injuries
sustained during a bout, higher than the current minimum in 43
States.
It is also very important to know that my company, UFC,
already has extensive experience in operating a best-in-class
combat sports organization. For more than two decades, UFC has
worked to become the gold standard for athlete health and
safety in combat sorts. We are proud of our track record, and
we certainly bring that expertise to bear in the boxing
industry.
As boxing is the only professional sport regulated by
Congress, we believe that congressional action in the form of
bipartisan H.R. 4624 is needed to clarify the ambiguity in
current law that has stifled investment and led to the problems
we have that have diminished the sport for athletes and fans
alike. This bill is a thoughtful solution that preserves the
original Ali Act while providing boxers with access to more
choices and opportunities, greater health and safety
protections, and better pay.
I want to thank the subcommittee for giving me the
opportunity to testify here today. I would be happy to take any
questions you may have. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Epstein follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Now I recognize Mrs. Ali for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF LONNIE ALI, WIDOW OF MUHAMMAD ALI AND COFOUNDER,
MUHAMMAD ALI CENTER, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY
Mrs. Ali. Thank you, Chairman Mackenzie.
Chairman Mackenzie. If you could just tap the microphone,
please, there, ma'am.
Mrs. Ali. Sorry.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Mrs. Ali. Thank you, Chairman Mackenzie, Ranking Member
Omar, and distinguished members of the Workforce Protection
Subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before
you today to discuss H.R. 4624, the Muhammad Ali American
Boxing Revival Act. My name is Lonnie Ali, and I am honored to
speak to you as the wife and partner of the greatest boxer of
all time, the self-proclaimed, globally recognized, and
original GOAT, Muhammad Ali.
I met Muhammad in 1963 when I was 6 years old and living in
Louisville, Kentucky. Back then, the young Cassius Clay played
a role in my life as a hometown hero and a growing global icon
whose influence extended far beyond the ring throughout his
career. After his retirement from boxing, we married, and I
stood beside him for more than three decades as his closest
companion, advocate, and eventually his caregiver.
Muhammad went on to become an Olympic champion and three-
time heavyweight champion of the world, earning numerous
accolades, including the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005
from President George W. Bush. Boxing gave Muhammad a platform
to speak truth to power, to fight for civil rights, and to
inspire millions around the world. He believed that boxing gave
him the public platform to serve others, to be the voice for
the voiceless. Muhammad often said service to others is the
rent you pay for your room here on Earth. Needless to say, he
lived his life practicing what he preached. He appreciated and
utilized the immense platform boxing gave him to serve others
and speak out about issues that moved him.
Today, as cofounder of the Muhammad Ali Center in
Louisville, I carry forward Muhammad's legacy of promoting
respect, hope, and understanding throughout the world. The
Center serves as both a museum and a cultural institution
celebrating his global legacy and as an educational institution
that inspires young people to find their own greatness.
This brings me to why I strongly support H.R. 4624.
Congress has long recognized that boxing needs help. Twenty-
five years ago, Congress honored Muhammad by enacting the
Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act to address corruption and other
problems in boxing. These issues were not new to Muhammad, to
Congress, or to the country. Indeed, in the 1960's, it was
well-known that the mob controlled much of boxing.
In the late 1990's and the early 2000's, Muhammad and I
were honored to work with the late and Honorable Senator John
McCain of Arizona to strengthen reforms throughout the Muhammad
Ali Boxing Reform Act. Twenty 5 years later, boxing has
suffered a steady decline in both popularity and integrity.
Young athletes who might have once seen boxing as a pathway to
success now face a system plagued by structural limitations,
inadequate safety protections, and limited opportunities for
fair compensation. One needs only to understand that HBO,
Showtime, and ESPN have dropped boxing programming to know that
boxing is in trouble.
I was asked about this bill and felt a personal obligation
to assess whether it would be good for boxing and for boxers. I
certainly cannot speak for Muhammad. As you know, he had a way
with words. The perspective I bring is whether this bill
reinforces Muhammad's life work, and it does.
In addition to injecting some much-needed competition into
the current system, this bill has significant health, safety,
and integrity provisions that will no doubt be good for the
sport. These three elements are particularly meaningful to me:
minimum compensation, mandatory MRI testing which will require
MRI and MRA tests every 3 years, and performance and recovery
centers.
Muhammad's perspective on boxing transcended its demanding
physical aspects. He was well-known for his focus on the mental
and emotional strength, courage, and self-belief gained through
the sport, viewing boxing as a platform for expressing
convictions and inspiring others. He believed in the importance
of mental fortitude and willpower, professing that the will
must be stronger than the skill.
If Muhammad were here today, I know he would want to ensure
that boxing remains strong and viable for generations to come,
providing opportunities for other athletes to pursue their
goals and dreams just like he did. This legislation has the
potential to create countless opportunities for young athletes
while establishing the safety standards and ethical practices
that should have been in place long ago. It can help restore
boxing's position as a respected American sport while ensuring
that fighters who make it great are treated with dignity and
the protection they deserve.
Given its enhanced protections for boxers, I believe
Muhammad would be proud to have his name associated with this
legislation. Thank you very much for your time and
consideration. I look forward to working with you to pass this
important legislation, and I am happy to answer any questions
you may have at this time.
[The prepared statement of Mrs. Ali follows:]
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Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you. Next we will recognize Mr.
English for his testimony.
STATEMENT OF PATRICK ENGLISH, PRINCIPAL, PARTNER, AND OWNER,
DINES AND ENGLISH, LLC, CLIFTON, NEW JERSEY
Mr. English. Thank you very much.
Chairman Mackenzie. Microphone as well, please. Is it on?
There you go.
Mr. English. Thank you.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you, sir.
Mr. English. Thank you. Why am I here today, is the
question. I have been involved in all of the boxing reform
movements since the original Boxing Health and Safety Act--very
involved--to the extent of working with the staff of John
McCain in both acts to help draft them.
Now, I am going to be in the minority here. I am glad that
Congress is taking a new look because there are things that
should be corrected and modified, but this Act is not the way
to go. What the real purpose of this Act is, in addition to the
things that Lonnie Ali said--they are all good, and I am all in
favor of that; I have them down on my little pad here--is to
give a monopoly power or attempt to give a monopoly power to a
particular UBO, which is Zuffa.
Most boxers, through their organizations and individually,
are opposed to this Act. Nobody, to my knowledge, has gathered
them together to speak as they have before the ABC, before the
California Athletic Commission, and many other places.
When it became known that I was going to testify today, I
was deluged with folks that said, ``Make sure they ask this,
make sure they ask that.'' Well, it is not my role, nor do I
have the time to do that but let me tell you really quickly how
the other acts that I mentioned were generated. There was no
one who was a lobbyist who was involved in those acts. They
were a group--including John McCain--of people who cared and
wanted to help a sport that needed help. They worked
collectively together in a long series of hearings. Sadly, it
took years, but it got better.
The Muhammad Ali Act is an example. It broke to some
extent--not to the extent I would like--a grip of ratings
organizations in a way that was very bad. ``Corrupt'' is the
word that I would choose to use. This bill unfortunately takes
away some of the guidelines that were so important particularly
in the Muhammad Ali Act.
For instance--I have provided written testimony--but just
certain things. The firewall provision will not apply to the
UBO. That is not helpful to anyone except somebody who wants to
control. The next thing of many is that it does not require
that positive drug tests be reported as they are now. Right
now, they are reported to the local commission. They are
reported to the ABC, and, of course, through the ABC to the
organization that reports results. It is called BoxRec, and it
has a contract with the ABC. This bill says, ``or it goes to
those or the UBO.'' That is wrong. There has been lots of
suspect that results have been held, not recorded, or
manipulated. That can't be. It is a formula for a problem.
I have written testimony. I know you have read it. I am
running out of time here, but I really would like to answer any
questions that you have, recognizing that I am really in the
minority of this panel.
[The prepared statement of Mr. English follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Mackenzie. All right. Well, thank you. We
appreciate everybody being here.
Last, we will recognize Mr. Foster for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF ANDY FOSTER, EXECUTIVE OFFICER, CALIFORNIA STATE
ATHLETIC COMMISSION, SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA
Mr. Foster. Good afternoon, Chairman Mackenzie, Ranking
Member Omar, and distinguished members of the committee. My
name is Andy Foster, and I serve as executive officer of the
California State Athletic Commission and multiple leadership
positions within the Association of Boxing Commissions. I was
also a professional fighter. Thank you for holding this
important hearing for consideration of the Muhammad Ali
American Boxing Revival Act.
Members of Congress, in 44 States right now, a professional
boxer can fight four, six, or sometimes eight rounds, get
knocked unconscious, concussed, need stitches, suffer a broken
orbital or worse, and the check they are handed at the end of
the night is literally $1. I have stood ringside and watched it
happen. In some cases, fighters actually pay the promoter a fee
just to be on the card. They leave the venue worse off both
financially and physically than when they arrived. Members of
Congress, that is not a sport; that is sanctioned exploitation.
In 2016, California said ``no more.'' The Commission banned
$1 contracts and set a minimum purse of $100 per scheduled
round. In 2023, Governor Gavin Newsom signed legislation that
the Commission sponsored that doubled purses to a minimum of
$200 per round, the highest in the country. A four-round
fighter in California now walks away with at least $800. It is
still modest money, but for the thousands of club-level
fighters who keep this sport alive, it is enough money to get
you home. H.R. 4624 would finally bring the rest of America to
a reasonable floor: $150 per round, meaning $600 for a four-
rounder. That single provision would be the biggest pay raise
the working-class boxer has ever seen.
Money is only part of the picture. Boxing injuries can be
brutal and expensive. Too many promoters today carry $5,000 or
$10,000 insurance policies. When a fighter needs an overnight
hospital stay, an MRI, emergency surgery, those bills go unpaid
and often get sent to the fighter himself. This bill fixes that
by requiring every professional card in the country to carry at
least $25,000 in no-deductible medical coverage paid for by the
promoter and not the athlete. That is real protection. That is
what boxing needs. That will help boxing.
The legislation also establishes the first Federal medical
baseline, an annual physical, dilated eye exam, and blood
testing for hepatitis B, C, and HIV. California and a handful
of other States already greatly exceed these standards, and the
bill wisely lets us continue to do so, but no boxer in any
State will again be cleared with just a quick blood pressure
check and a handshake.
The California State Athletic Commission voted unanimously
to support this bill, and we particularly urge you to add one
amendment that we have requested: An automatic inflation
adjustment so that these person insurance minimums and these
protections do not erode over time.
We also strongly back the Unified Boxing Organizations
framework in the bill. It gives fighters genuine choice in how
they want to pursue titles without the crushing sanctioning
fees that drain purses today. It gives the fighters a choice.
Mr. Chairman, professional boxers put their health and
their future on the line every single time they step through
the ropes. H.R. 4624 says that their safety, their basic
dignity, and their ability to pay a medical bill are not
negotiable. California regulates more combat sports events than
any other State in the country by a wide margin, and we are
proud to stand with Congressman Jack and Congresswoman Davids--
who is also a fighter--and the other Members of Congress to
support this bipartisan bill. Please pass this bill, add the
inflation adjustment, and give American boxers the protection
that they have earned in blood and sweat.
Thank you, and I am happy to answer your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Foster follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Under Committee Rule 9, we will now ask questions of the
witnesses and under the 5-minute rule. I would recognize myself
first, but I am going to yield to our full committee chairman,
Mr. Walberg from Michigan.
Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentleman for your kindness in
doing that, and I appreciate panel for being here very much so.
I guess I would add a few more names to the Little Caesars
Arena in Detroit. You have got to remember ``The Fist'' Joe
Louis in the Joe Louis Arena and Kronk Gym, which is making a
comeback. Certainly, I am so proud that the longtime home of
Muhammad and Lonnie Ali was in my district, and so good to have
you here.
Mr. Epstein, being a wrestler--I guess a pugilist to some
degree--myself and having five shoulder surgeries as a result
of that--chicken wings, arm bars, Granby rolls, and all of the
rest--I would not--not do it over again but that was amateur. I
guess I would like to hear more about the medical coverage of
the Ultimate Fighting Championship that goes on specifically--
goes on in a person's life as well as especially the training
aspect. What is covered there?
Mr. Epstein. Congressman, thanks for that question. You
know, most injuries actually take place--with mixed martial
arts athletes, combat sports athletes--in training because,
every fight they participate in, many, many hours are used to
train for that particular bout, and that is when many injuries
occur.
Over a decade ago at the UFC, we instituted what we call an
accident insurance policy for all of the athletes at the UFC
that are currently under contract with us. That accident
insurance policy provides coverage for any--I am going to
underline any--acute injury sustained by the athlete in
training or any other situation, frankly, leading up to the
event.
You heard a little bit about what we would like to do with
this bill, which would be to increase the amount of coverage
that would be for injuries sustained in a bout, but the
coverage that we provide, you know, obviously dovetails that.
It covers all injuries, any acute injury that is sustained
during training, and, frankly, any injury that the athlete
sustains while they are under contract. That is a very
significant thing because, in many situations, athletes--you
know, they don't have coverage and they will actually go into a
bout injured in order to avail themselves to the, at this
point, fairly limited accident insurance policy they will have
relating to a bout injury.
We are very proud of that. We have done it for, as I said,
over a decade now, and it is something that we think is central
to the UBO model and a requirement that all UBOs should have to
implement before they can have the status.
Mr. Walberg. That industrywide standard is greatly
appreciated. Thank you.
Mr. Epstein. Thank you.
Mr. Walberg. Mrs. Ali, you cofounded the Muhammad Ali
Center with your late husband. A core mission of the center, as
I understand, is the continuous legacy for promoting respect
and inspiring positive change. How do you believe H.R. 4624
works toward achieving those goals?
Mrs. Ali. Thank you for that question, Congressman. My
husband spent his life trying to inspire and uplift people,
especially those who did not have a voice of their own. In this
situation, a lot of the boxers do not have that voice either.
I appreciate this bill in particular because it addresses
not only the legacy of Muhammad in his sport of boxing where it
will maintain that presence of boxing in American sports
culture but also what it does for the people who participate
and make that sport possible for us to watch. It will uplift
them with minimum payment for each round they box.
The health and safety standards that are--that have been
incorporated into this act, especially the MRI and MRA brain
testing, which is especially important to me--every 3 years,
beginning the first year and then every 3 years thereafter,
they are required to take that test as well as the--as I said,
the performance and recovery institutes that they have. My
husband never had any kind of opportunity to have that kind of
support as an athlete. A lot of other league athletes do, and
boxers are entitled to that as well. I believe that my husband
would approve of the provisions in this act that uplift those
boxers and provide a pathway--just the way it provided a
pathway for him--to a bigger platform to make an honest living,
a decent living, and to be protected while doing so.
Mr. Walberg. Thank you.
Before I yield back, because I have to here, I want to say,
Mr. Foster, thank you for bringing reality in your testimony to
what the sport is about and what fighters go through. Thank
you. I yield back.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you, Chairman.
I will next recognize our ranking member of the
subcommittee for 5 minutes of questioning.
Ms. Omar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. English, thank you so much for joining us. Can you
briefly remind us of what the world of boxing looked like
before the Ali Act, and what were the conditions and practices
that led to the Ali Act?
Mr. English. Competing, in my view, was thoroughly corrupt.
Ratings were sold. We know that as a fact because there was a
conviction as a result of it. There was a coziness--I think I
say in my written testimony--between promoters and managers.
Now, managers should have a fiduciary duty to a fighter, a
manager meaning anyone who gets a percentage of the fighter's
purse who is not a promoter. That was not the case. We had and
still do have issues where you have relatives who manage
fighters where a promoter has an interest.
If you are asking also about the Health and Safety Act, it
was a start. It was not the completion. There was a lot more
that needed to be done. The biggest thing that happened was the
suspension list administered through the ABC into a company
called BoxRec. Right now, it is BoxRec. It was something else
then.
Ms. Omar. Let me ask you this. If the Revival Act was
passed, would Unified Boxing Organizations, or UBOs, be allowed
to undertake any of the practices that the Ali Act prohibited?
Mr. English. Yes. One major one is the ``coziness''--and I
use that word--between managers and the UBO, whether it is the
UFC, Zuffa, or anybody else who may come along. Nobody else
exists right now.
I have seen provisions of contracts that require the
signing with a, quote, ``advisor,'' unquote, for 15 percent of
a boxer's income. You know, it was in a promotional contract,
so--and that was an entity that was a Zuffa-related entity.
That is absolutely prohibited. Now, I do not know whether that
contract was provisioned on the completion of this bill, but it
is there.
Ms. Omar. Yes.
Mr. English. I do not know why, but it is there.
Ms. Omar. Thank you.
Mr. Epstein, the UFC settled a longstanding antitrust case
after allegations of using restrictive contracts, keeping
fighters' pay at roughly 15 to 20 percent of revenue, as Mr.
English was kind of alluding to. What minimum share of event
revenues can you commit today that boxers could receive under
Zuffa Boxing League?
Mr. Epstein. Yes. First, let me just address, you know,
sort of the lawsuit, which was part of your question. We did
settle the lawsuit. It was 10 years of litigation. We made a
business decision to settle it. I want to be clear: There was
no finding of any liability or anything along those lines.
As far as committing to any percentage today, obviously, we
cannot do that. You know, we are starting a new business. If
this legislation is passed, we are going to be starting a new
business, and it is going to be----
Ms. Omar. Okay. Well, then let me ask you this. UFC is
being sued again, not only with more claims of wage suppression
but also new allegations of discovery violation--even though
you just said there was no discovery--possibly withholding a
substantial amount of evidence that was crucial to the UFC's
bid to force their antitrust claims into arbitration. With all
these lawsuits, I am having a hard time seeing why any of the
fighters would ever be able to trust that they will be paid
fairly in the system.
Mr. Epstein, what would you tell the many boxers who are
worried about being trapped in a long, coercive contract, or
how will you make sure that the economic freedom of boxers will
not be taken away under this model that you are advocating for?
Mr. Epstein. What I would tell them is they are going to
have a choice. What is very clear from this legislation is that
the existing Ali Act is not going to change at all. We are
adding new provisions that will add for what we have talked
about, the Unified Boxing Organizations or UBOs. There is going
to be a choice for athletes to make. I do not see how choice is
a bad thing. If our system is not providing the economic
opportunities for athletes, they can avail themselves to the
existing system.
The problem we have got is the current State of boxing is
just a disaster. As was mentioned in previous testimony from
witnesses on this panel, there are no major media companies in
the United States of America that currently broadcast in any
way, shape, or form a consistent cadence of boxing events. If
we look back 10 or 15 years ago, you had HBO; you had Showtime;
you had ESPN Friday Night Fights--which I loved--Tuesday night
fights on USA.
I mean, I am a huge boxing fan, too. I want this sport to
be successful. I want it to win, and I really do believe that
the UBOs will give it a chance. Ultimately, it is going to be a
choice for athletes. If they do not like it, they can choose to
stick with the existing system.
Ms. Omar. Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Epstein. Thank you.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Mr. Epstein, I will go to myself for the next round of
questions, and I would like to continue and pick up where the
ranking member left off.
When it comes to competition amongst different
organizations and the potential for increased competition
through H.R. 4624, I would like to hear how UFC's safety
standards compare to other existing boxing industry standards
that are in place today.
Mr. Epstein. Thank you for that question. I mean, you know,
we believe that the UFC standards for health and safety are
truly the gold standard in the combat sports industry. As I
mentioned in a previous question, we provide accident insurance
policies for all of our athletes. I think we have 750 athletes
currently under contract. All 750-plus have what is called an
accident insurance policy that covers them for all acute
injuries.
It was also mentioned by Mrs. Ali that we have a UFC
Performance Institute. That Performance Institute is a physical
space that we have in several locations around the world that
provides world-class training, nutrition, injury recovery, and
sports science to all of our athletes free of charge. Those are
just two things that we are doing to set the industry standard
when it comes to combat sports.
The final thing which I will mention--because Mr. English
did mention it--is drug testing, and I was a bit confused by
his comments. I agree with him that there should be absolute
transparency when it comes to adverse drug testing and
performance-enhancing drug testing results.
Over 10 years ago, we instituted what I believe to be is
the gold standard not in the world of combat sports but in the
world of professional sports: a 365-day, random, out-of-
competition testing protocol for all of our athletes all
administered by a third party--we do not decide who gets
tested, when they get tested, for what they get tested--and all
of the adjudication of any adverse results is handled by a
third party.
This is the industry-leading stuff that we are doing for
the health and safety of the UFC, and we absolutely intend to
do this in a Unified Boxing Organizations structure.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you. I would note, I mean, when
it comes to boxing and a regulated sport like this, we are
talking about compensation for fighters. We are talking about
the opportunity for more competition, more highlighting of the
sport on national TV, but safety standards and health
provisions are critically important to those boxers, and I do
believe that that is one area where competition in the
marketplace could actually increase those standards for
everybody across the industry as well, because boxers are going
to be picking and choosing where they want to compete, and they
are going to be looking at that whole array of issues, not just
the compensation and exposure but also the health and safety of
the competing organizations. I think that is critically
important that we highlight that here.
Mr. Foster, I will go to you next. I do want to talk about,
with your long tenure in the industry and especially now as a
regulator, how have you seen the boxing industry change since
the passage of the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform in 2000, and how
do you believe that the changes that we are trying to correct
can be remedied with the legislation that is being discussed
today?
Mr. Foster. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Some of the changes
that I have saw have been somewhat negative over the years. I
mean, we lost HBO. We lost Showtime. We lost Fox. We lost ESPN.
We are not on TV. Boxing is not on TV anymore. DAZN, they are
based in the U.K. They are broadcasting, but that has been one
area.
Another area that has been helpful is, you know, like Pat
said, we have the suspension list, and now that BoxRec's doing
it, we have got really good with communicating with the other
States. We do not have fighters fighting on suspension. That
has been helpful with the Reform Act.
One of the things, Mr. Chairman, when we talk about what
happened in 1996 and what happened in 2000, now we are in 2025,
is not how much it has changed. How much is still the same? The
boxers are still being exploited. Look, it was $100 a round 25
years ago. I am talking about the minimum standard, okay? I
mean, dollar contracts are relatively, from my experience, a
relatively newer type idea, giving the fighters the tickets to
sell, and that is how you are paid. Making them do this kind of
thing and then this idea of having to use--whether you are
going to have to use your money that you just made to pay the
deductible to get your stitches done, these are not okay. This
bill addresses those particular issues.
Just final, because I am running out of time here, I think
that adding competition will help the industry, because the
sanctioning organizations, it is interesting to me that their
fees are all the same, okay? Roughly all the same. IBF will
give you a break at 2 percent if you are a champion, I think,
but the fees are essentially all the same. Is that not
interesting? I think it is interesting.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you again, and for our next
questions, we will go to Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin.
Mr. Grothman. Yes, thanks. First of all, just, you know,
you do not see boxing on TV much anymore, but was not there a
time in this country where, if you were in the service, you
either had to pick to be a boxer or a wrestler? Anyone want to
comment on that?
Mr. Epstein. Yes, I can just jump in here quickly and just
say, you know, virtually every branch of the U.S. military now
trains in some form of combat sports, mixed martial arts,
boxing, wrestling, et cetera. I think what you are saying is
absolutely accurate.
Mr. Grothman. Yes. I think during the 1950's if you were in
the military. Okay. Your written testimony--this is for you,
Mr. Epstein. Your written testimony also says the current mega
event model in boxing financially benefits a few boxers at the
top. How would the creation of a UBO organization promote
growth for this sport and success spread out among boxers a
little bit more?
Mr. Foster. Yes. I think the model really is what we have
done at the UFC. We purchased the UFC in 2001. We were doing a
handful events, four or five events per year. In 2026, we will
do 43 events. Typically, that is 12 to 14 bouts per event, so
that is, you know, essentially 24 to 28 athletes competing.
This is the type of stuff that we are going to do in the world
of boxing. We are going to increase capacity. We are going to
not just create opportunities for one or two boxers every few
years to do a mega fight but create a consistent cadence of
events, which of course means a consistent cadence of work for
a huge number of boxers.
I mentioned, at UFC, we are 750 athletes currently, plus or
minus a few. This is the type of aspirations that certainly we
have for the boxing industry, and that means, as I said, not
just more athletes making more money on a per round basis, but
actually more athletes making money in general.
Mr. Grothman. Okay. How would the unified boxing
organizations coordinate with State athletic commissions?
Mr. Epstein. State athletic commissions are a key part and
really the linchpin for all of the regulatory health and safety
athlete payment issues that relate to boxing in this country.
Every single event that we would do in the United States of
America would only be done if it was sanctioned by a State
athletic commission. We do a lot of work with Andy in
California. That would be the case if we did events in
California. I also want to repeat that we would not be doing
any events in this country without them being fully sanctioned
by athletic commissions.
Mr. Grothman. I remember the golden days of boxing, and I
remember it was always on Friday nights on ESPN I would like to
watch. It was just tremendous. That being said, I also love to
watch football, and there have been lawsuits and such over
football players. Even though they are okay when they are
playing, the real injuries kick in when they are 55 or 60 years
old. In boxing, we have a sport in which the goal is even to
knock people out, which you do not have in football. That is a
rare thing that you see. How would you respond to criticism,
and are there any statistics available on the number of, say,
boxers who have Alzheimer's or whatever they get, say 20 years
after they retire, compared to football players and the
injuries that they get?
Mr. Epstein. You raise a very important issue, one that, at
the UFC, we have been involved in for almost 15 years now in
investigating these issues. I think the primary goal that we
have is to allow our athletes to make informed decisions about
their health and safety, provide them with information so they
can make informed decisions. What we have been doing for the
last 15 years approximately is funding being the primary
funder, along with some of the boxing promoters, by the way.
They have contributed.
In a groundbreaking study with the Cleveland Clinic, the
Cleveland Clinic has an outpost in Las Vegas. The goal of this
study is twofold. No. 1, are certain people just predisposed
toward brain injury because of their physiology? No. 2, are
there early indications that we can see before someone starts
manifesting a cognitive deficit, we can see they are heading
down the wrong path and, you know, get them out of the sport.
It is not great to diagnose somebody with CTE after they got
it, but figuring out ways to stop people from getting it is the
key. This study that we have been involved in, as I said, with
UFC athletes, with boxers, with other workers that have
potential for brain injury, lots of data has come out of that,
and we can share that data with this committee if you are
interested in that. I think around 40 or 50 peer-reviewed
journals have looked at that data, and we are getting closer
every day to a way where we can hopefully make as a condition
of licensure for MMA athletes, for boxers, some sort of a test
that will indicate if you are predisposed to a brain injury or
you are heading down the wrong path; you are out of the sport,
and you cannot get a license.
Mr. Grothman. I will just leave you with something. I knew
a guy who was a very good football player, on the collegiate
level, but very, very good, and after he graduated from
college, he started his own business, very successful, super
guy, but he wound up getting Alzheimer's when he was, like, in
his early 50's, and nobody is ever going to convince me that
that was a coincidence that this guy who used to brag to me
that he hit guys with the crown of his helmet, which you are
not supposed to do, but was a good football player and a damn
shame he died before he was 60. Remind you guys as you work
through this to think about that, because just because a guy
does not have a serious injury the day of the fight or the week
after the fight does not mean that, over the course of 20
fights, he is going to have something that pops up when he is
55 years old, which is what is happening in the NFL now, so
thanks.
Mrs. Ali. Excuse me, may I add something to the testimony
that Mr. Epstein just gave?
Chairman Mackenzie. Please, Mrs. Ali, go ahead.
Mrs. Ali. Thank you so much, and thank you, Congressman,
for your question, because I think they are important. As I
said in my testimony, brain health is especially important to
me, because my husband suffered with Parkinson's disease not
from boxing, but I have seen what boxing can do to people. As
you said, hitting people with your head can later in life bring
on Alzheimer's. That is why I am so proud and happy that this
particular act brings in brain health as an issue, as a
component where this MRI--MRAs will be performed every 3 years
so that the detection of brain health, the boxer will know
where he is headed, how his brain health is, because you can
see the imaging. You can see the damage that might be done and
where it might lead to, especially when you are being seen by a
neurologist, who that is their expertise.
As Mr. Epstein mentioned out in--the Cleveland Clinic out
in Las Vegas does that specifically for boxers, so no other
provision in this--that parallel, I should say, the parallel
boxing industry provides for this. No one asked my husband to
take a required MRI to be sanctioned, to be licensed. This was
something we did later, of course, in his life and found out
about the Parkinson's disease, but it was not asked for any
other boxer. This is a provision I think that is a strength
that shows that the UBOs would be very, very interested and
protective of the athlete and one of the provisions, as I said,
that I am so proud to have in there.
Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you for adding that, and next we
will go for--turn to questions for Mr. Messmer from Indiana.
Mr. Messmer. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to our
witnesses for being here today.
Mr. Foster, in your written testimony, you discuss how the
current four-belt system has created a self-serving incentive
to emphasize the ranking of a few boxers at the top at the
expense of competitive entertaining matches that could grow the
sport. Can you discuss how this bill would foster healthy
competition in boxing?
Mr. Foster. Yes. Thank you, Congressman. To answer your
question, sir, you have to understand the way that boxing
works, the current system, the four belt system. What you have
is you have a promoter who signs a fighter, and that is the
promoter's fighter, and then this is early in their career.
What happens is you look for a--that promoter will promote a
fight and look for somebody that that guy--that person can
beat, okay? Has to be good enough to pass my approval or
whichever State's approval, but has to be reasonable but
beatable. Okay. Those people in boxing are called opponents.
That is the term that we use.
Then, when you get a really good opponent, they are called
the gate keeper. Okay. We have some of them in the various
weight classes, and then they move up. This goes on and on and
on until you get an undefeated fighter. Okay. This is what is
happening.
Then, over here on the other side of the country or nearby,
you have another promoter doing essentially the same thing.
Okay. They are doing this. Now, all these people that have been
beat all the time, they are attracting just loss after loss
after loss, and they have got really no kind of recourse. They
have got no promoter. They are not being promoted, but the
undefeated fighter is.
Now, at the end of this rainbow, all this way up, the
sanctioning bodies have issued, like, the regional belt, the
this and that belt, whatever belt. They have a lot of belts.
Let me give you, sir, in 1996, when the Professional Boxing Act
was passed, 619 titles were issued across the world by the
sanction organizations. Last year, that number was 2,156. Okay.
You saw an increase in the number of titles. It is good for,
like, the fighters like to have them, and the whole thing, but
they are charging every time the thing they charge for the
belt. That system that I just explained to you is exploitive in
a way.
Now, under a UBO system, if a promoter has both sides of
the card, their financial interest shifts. Their business model
shifts from wanting to make sure that the--that their fighter
wins to making a competitive match that the public will want to
see, because it is driven by--it is a different model. You want
to have, like, a fight that people will want to tune in and
see. The first model is, like, well, you have got a fight that
is kind of okay; people might tune in, but you are searching
for the mega fight at the end where you have, like, a big
champion that has won all this stuff versus the other
promoter's big champion, and you promote a big thing. They are
just different business models. When the focus shifts from
trying to protect your fighter and getting the opponent beat to
making competitive matches, in my view, that is--that would be
a good for boxing.
One final caveat to that that goes along with it: Let us
say you have got one of these fighters that are promoted, and
they take a loss. Okay. Their earnings potential just plummets
the next go around, the next fight. It just goes so far down
whereas, under a system where they have got both sides of the
card, if the guy loses, so what? They have got a contract. They
know what they are going to get the next time. This is the--
this is what is happening in boxing, and I think that adding a
UBO model, not taking away the current system, because,
remember, there is a difference here, sir. This is for the U.S.
boxers. This is for American boxers, okay? These sanction
organizations deal throughout the world. We are dealing with
world titles. This is for American. I think that the name of
the bill, the Revival Act, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing
Revival Act, I believe it will revive American boxing by
providing competition for our fighters. I hope that answers
your question.
Mr. Messmer. Well done. Thank you, and I will yield back
the rest of my time.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you, sir.
Next we go to Mr. Comer from Kentucky.
Mr. Comer. Thank you.
Mrs. Ali, it is an honor to have you here today, a fellow
Kentuckian and someone that obviously has left a huge positive
impact in our State. I fly out of Louisville Muhammad Ali
Airport every week to come to Washington, and I am a big fan of
the Muhammad Ali Center there in Louisville and all the great
work that you all do. On behalf of everyone in Kentucky, we
thank you for the great work that you do in Kentucky.
It is inspiring to see the foundation continue to do so
many good things, especially the pursuit to improve the boxing
industry and raise awareness of neurological diseases. I know
that your husband would be very proud of this legislation and
everything that honors his name, that bears his name that does
good for the industry.
In addition to enacting Representative Jack's legislation,
the Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act, what more can be done to
address general safety and health concerns in boxing?
Mrs. Ali. Well, I am not the expert, sir, but I think this
is--we are off to a good start with this bill. As I said, the
brain health is what is most important to me. I think we are
doing that. If I was to suggest is maybe it would be more
often, maybe every year instead of every 3 years.
With regards to the physicals, I know that is important,
the health and safety of the physicals, and I know that is also
something that ends up with the State athletic commissions to
make sure that the boxer is healthy, but also, as Mr. English
mentioned and Mr. Epstein mentioned, about drug testing and
making sure that that is done randomly, it is transparent, and
results are shared.
What is important is that, when you think about the health
of a boxer, it is not just the physical health. It is also
about the economic health of a boxer and how that plays into
this. The minimum standard that we are--that the bill is
offering is $150 per round, which is more than what is in 40
plus States already. This gives an opportunity for boxers to
earn a decent wage while boxing, which is important, and also
gives them an opportunity in this system to ascend rightfully,
competitively in their ranks to earn even more money.
When I think about this bill and how it promotes Muhammad's
legacy, it is about lifting people up, preserving boxing for
America, making sure, like I said, that opportunity exists for
other athletes, other people who want to pursue boxing, because
this is, as you said, it is a sport that has been in America
for a very long time, over 100 years. It is the common man's
sport, and everybody deserves an opportunity and access to be
able to walk into a boxing gym and pick up a pair of gloves and
aspire to be something greater.
Mr. Comer. What would you hope to see change in this sport
to foster new interest in boxing?
Mrs. Ali. I think that, right now, we are looking at a
barren landscape. Boxing is not there. We need to change that,
and how do we do that? The existing model, even though it is
there, it is still fraught with problems and challenges for
boxers. This is a parallel organization opportunity for boxers
to participate in that will enhance I think the opportunity for
boxing to be on a regular cadence, as Mr. Epstein said, on
television, promoted to bring back boxing. This is the start.
This UBO is one organization. That does not prevent other
UBOs from coming into existence, which is important. So, when
you see that competitive spirit and the ability to create that
spectator sport, which is what all professional sports really
are, I think it is something that will increase awareness of
the sport and really regain that fan base.
Mr. Comer. Very good. Well, I appreciate that. I am glad to
support this legislation. Hopefully, we can revive the sport in
Kentucky where Muhammad Ali is without a doubt the most famous
athlete to ever come out of Kentucky. We are proud of him and
his legacy and the great work that you all do and happy to
support this legislation. I yield back.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Next we will go to Mr. Fine from Florida.
Mr. Fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have got a few questions for Mr. English. I spent more
than 10 years of my life in the casino business, and boxing was
an important part of driving that business since I entered it
back in the early 2000's. I want to talk about how boxing has
grown or declined over time. Would you say there are more cards
today, more or fewer cards today than there were 10 years ago?
Mr. English. Well, it is a misnomer that there are
substantially fewer. I got the research, and I provided it to
the staff. I would take more time than it is worth, but it is
not hugely lower.
Mr. Fine. Actually, it is. In the 1990's there were 250 to
300. I used to do this for a living, and actually in the 2020's
there was about 100 to 130. We have seen about a 50 percent
decline in U.S. cards over time. It is your contention, so I
understand, that the boxing industry, if you will, the
opportunities available for boxers today is the same as it was
in the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's. It is just as good. The industry
is just----
Mr. English. No, it is not the same at all.
Mr. Fine. The opportunities are the same--better or worse
today than they were 20, 30 years ago?
Mr. English. Very different. I cannot judge whether the
fact--look, if Mr. Ali was a world champion today, and I always
say this, when--how goes the heavyweight division goes boxing.
It is true. We do not have right now the prominent--and I am
speaking generally, of course--we do not have the prominent
American boxers that we once did.
Mr. Fine. Sure. Perhaps it is because the number of
opportunities available to become that are smaller. My next
question for you is this. Do you think if we created a second
vehicle--UFC has been extraordinarily successful, created an
industry out of nothing. Do you think that if it was created,
that what we are talking about here, would there be more or
less opportunities for boxers to engage in the sport and the
profession that they want to participate in? More or fewer?
Mr. English. Just to be very clear, I am not arguing that
there should not be a UBO or whatever you want to call it. What
I am arguing is that the guardrails that are in the Muhammad
Ali Act should apply universally.
Mr. Fine. Let us talk about guardrails. Earlier this week,
Terence Bud Crawford was stripped of his championship belt by a
sanctioning organization because he did not pay an exorbitant a
fee to the sanctioning organization. Are you aware of that?
Mr. English. Yes.
Mr. Fine. There are pretty big problems with what goes on
today.
Mr. English. Many times I have suggested to fighters that
they do not need a particular belt or any belt. I could give
you the names of the fighters, but it is not important.
Sometimes fighters transcend those belts.
Mr. Fine. You also said there are not a lot transcending
right now. We do not have a lot of transcenders right now.
There are not----
Mr. English. We do not have as many as we did. I can think
of a handful.
Mr. Fine. Okay. You were involved actually in an Ali Act
case involving Jeff Lacy versus your clients. You worked with
this group called Main Events, who is sort of involved in this
space. When was the last time Main Events promoted a televised
card? I am focused on opportunities for boxers. Was it a year
ago, 5 years, 10 years?
Mr. English. I am not here as a representative of Main
Events. I want to make it very clear.
Mr. Fine. I understand. I am asking a fact question.
Mr. English. I do--they have got a card that they are co-
promoting in January.
Mr. Fine. When is the last time before that?
Mr. English. It was in Florida last year, maybe early this
year.
Mr. Fine. A couple opportunities. Look, the fact of the
matter is this. In the 1980's and the 1990's, boxing was
considered one of the big three sports. There were massive
opportunities available for people who want to participate. It
was not only good for them, but it was good for the facilities,
the entertainment venues for the business that I came from.
Everybody won by these increased opportunities. That industry
is now in decline, and I think that we can oppose a bill like
this because we want to keep the equivalent of the horse-and-
buggy system of boxing going and watch it continue to decline,
watch it continue to create fewer and fewer opportunities for
boxers, or we can live in the world the way it is today. What
we have seen is UFC has taken over several decades something
that basically did not exist and turned it into something
extraordinary. I think we would all benefit; I think boxers
would benefit if they had access to that same kind of
opportunity, too. I am very grateful to Representative Jack for
bringing this bill forward, and I am going to be excited to
vote for it if and when it comes before us for markup.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Next we will go to the ranking member of the full
committee, Mr. Scott from Virginia.
Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Foster, who does oversight right now in the Federal
law?
Mr. Foster. The Association of Boxing Commissions has some
degree of oversight, but it is relatively limited, and with the
Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act, it allows our State attorney
generals to take an action if we need to do that or it takes--
we can send it to the Federal Department of Justice.
Mr. Scott. Who would do oversight if this bill passed? Who
would do oversight for compliance with the provisions of this
law?
Mr. Foster. I would assume substantial compliance would be
the State athletic commissions.
Mr. Scott. Okay. What is the difference between a UBO and
the present sanctioning organizations?
Mr. Foster. Well, the current sanctioning organizations,
they rate fighters. There is four of them. There is the World
Boxing Council, the IBF. World Boxing Council is based in
Mexico City. The IBF is based in New Jersey. The WBO, that is
the World Boxing Organization, they are based in Puerto Rico.
The WBA, I think they are Medellin, Colombia. I think that is
right. Yes, I think they are Medellin, Colombia. They rank the
fighters, but the promoters, sir, have to--they work with the
sanction organizations to, like----
Mr. Scott. What does a UBO do that they do not do then?
Mr. Foster. Well, the UBO would essentially be the
promoter, and that is kind of the big difference is the UBO
would be ranking their own fighters they would have both sides
of the card, and there is a lot of benefit to that, sir,
because you do not have to wait to ask who can fight who. Okay.
Like, there is all these mandatories that happen once a year or
about annually. What happens is you have four different lists.
You have four groups. There are four different lists.
Now, some of these people are the same on the list. A whole
lot of them are not. Like, if somebody gets a mandatory, you
have to--the champion is supposed to--gets a letter and says,
``Hey, congratulations, you are the champion. You have got,
like, 6 weeks or 8 weeks to negotiate a deal with the No. 1
contender or our mandatory champion.'' It sounds great when you
say it, like--but it is not what happens in reality. A lot of
times what happens is, if there is a better fight for financial
reasons, they will try to do what is called a special exception
or a special----
Mr. Scott. How would a UBO fix that?
Mr. Foster. A UBO would have their fighters fight the fight
that they believe is reasonable for the rankings. I got to
think that they are going to do it the way that the other group
does it and have the media do the rankings. I am older, but the
newspaper or the internet media people would do the rankings,
and you would not have to be forced into a mandatory. You could
have the champion fight the No. 6 if that made common--made
sense, but most of the time, it is the No. 1 contender versus
the champion.
Mr. Scott. Does the bill anticipate a specific organization
to be a UBO, and can others qualify?
Mr. Foster. Absolutely. I think that there is going to be----
Mr. Scott. Absolutely what?
Mr. Foster. I think absolutely there will be multiple UBOs
in a short amount of time if this bill were to pass. I would
think three or four would pop up within three or 4 years of
this bill passing, because it will take a little bit of time to
get going, but at least three or four.
Mr. Scott. Now, there are several provisions in here,
minimum amount per round, insurance requirements, and things
like that. Is it better to do that by statute or by regulation
where it would be easier to update the amount per round or the
insurance coverage or the kinds of health requirements? Would
it be better to do that in statute or by regulation?
Mr. Foster. Congressman Scott, that is an excellent
question, sir. That is an excellent question he just asked. We
have been trying--look, we did it by regulation the first time
and by statute the second time, but we are one State. We had I
think 90 or almost 100 boxing events last year, but that is
one. To get the entire country on the same page of a minimum,
we have to have the U.S. Congress do this, because 50 State
legislatures or thereabouts are not going to take this up; 50
State commissions are not going to run regulations. It is going
to take Congress.
Mr. Scott. Thank you, unless, Mr. Chairman, you had a
national commission. Mr. Chairman, my time is expired.
Mr. English. Can I just have half a second to address that
issue? John McCain was moving toward preparing a bill that
would create a national commission, which would do exactly what
Congressman Scott was talking about. Obviously, he got
partially diverted by Presidential politics and then,
unfortunately, an illness, but that is something that this
Congress could do and, in my opinion, should explore.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you.
Finally, we will go to Mr. Allen from Georgia.
Mr. Allen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank you
for allowing me to waive on the committee, and I did that
because growing up in the late 1960's and 1970's, boxing,
football, and sports and athletics was everything to young men.
In fact, in high school, when you wanted to settle a difference
that resulted in a fight, and our coaches came up with this,
rather than expel the young men, they went to the gym, put on
their gloves, and settled it, usually ending in both exhausted,
hugging each other, walking out of the gym. It is amazing. In
fact, we did that--we settled it in college. My fraternity
brothers, golden gloves, nobody messed with him in the State of
Florida.
My hometown of Augusta is mostly known for golf, but we
have the Augusta Boxing Club, and I wanted to lift this up and
lift this club up. It is better to sweat in the gym than bleed
in the streets. Augusta Boxing Club, with assistance from area
law enforcement agencies, is structured as an after school
community support organization with a goal to curtail drug
abuse and crime among young adults and children. There is a
great story in boxing, and I wanted to lift that up.
I can tell you, Mrs. Ali, what is it? Float like a
butterfly, sting like a bee. I mean, I will never forget that,
and I never missed one of those boxing matches. It was amazing.
Your testimony talks about, and we have all talked about the
steady decline and popularity and integrity. We talked about
what H.R. 4624 does address as far as industry, but how is it
going to elevate the sport's prominence to where it once was?
Do you have--do you believe it has got the potential to do
that?
Mrs. Ali. I do not know all the answers to that, sir, but I
do believe it has the potential, and what you just mentioned
about the fighter, the boxing club that is in Augusta, and you
lifting that up, that is one thing that this unified boxing
organization and this bill talk about, that they intend to
invest in those police athletic leagues that are in different
communities.
As I said, this is a sport for the common man, where a
child can walk in with a pair of sneakers, and that is all they
need, and get a pair of boxing gloves, and it takes them off
the street. It gives them community. It gives them goals. It
gives them hope. It gives them inspiration, gives them guidance
and coaching, and that is important. The investment into those
police athletic leagues that used to exist when my husband came
along that he became a part of, Joe Martin, the officer who
coached my husband for a very long time, was the head of that
police athletic league that gave my husband that platform, that
start to become who he was, a global icon, so that, you know,
the sky is the limit. This is really important--pushing that
pipeline of children into that----
Mr. Allen. It is big in Augusta. We have the Augusta
Exchange Club agricultural fair, but the biggest draw is this
boxing club performs and we give prize money for them
displaying their skills in the ring in front of fair goers, and
it has become a tremendous success.
Mr. Foster, you referred to the Unified Boxing Organization
model as a league style model. Can you tell us how a league
style model would result in more competitive matches, which
would in turn result in greater interest from the public in
these fights?
Mr. Foster. Yes, Mr. Allen. Thank you for the question. It
is like I mentioned in a previous question is, when you have
the--when you have both sides of the card, you have a financial
incentive to make a good fight. okay. It is not trying to
protect the A-side boxer to have a pretty good fight but a
fight that you know that you can win all the way up until you
get to the undefeated end of the rainbow, so to speak. You have
a financial incentive to make a good fight every month or every
2 months or however the frequency of the fights are going to
happen. I believe that that would answer your question. I think
it is pretty obvious why that would make a better fight. You
would be financially incentivized to do so.
Mr. Allen. I want to thank all of you for taking your time
to be here today, and I want to help you. I want to get back to
the kind of boxing that we enjoyed, that I enjoyed growing up
early in life, and if there is anything I can do to help you, I
want to do that.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Mackenzie. Thank you, and that concludes
questioning from our members. We are going to go to closing
remarks. I would like to recognize the ranking member for her
closing statement.
Ms. Omar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, once again, thank
you to our witnesses for speaking with us today.
Boxing is a sport that requires fighters to push their
bodies and minds to the limit to achieve greatness and provide
entertainment for millions of viewers. These incredible feats
of athleticism deserve our utmost respect and our commitment to
ensuring these fighters get paid fairly, retain their leverage
in the industry, and have their health and safety prioritized.
While this bill is not entirely bad, the Muhammad Ali
American Boxing Revival Act does not yet live up to that
promise. We have already gotten recommendations for an
amendment from Mr. Foster. I do recommend that, before this
bill moves any further, that my colleagues take a moment and
check in with the people who will actually feel the impact of
these reforms. Talk to your State athletic commission, your
local boxing gym, the small venues, and mostly talk to boxers
in your community. We should hear all perspectives and make
sure that we are making fully informed policy decisions that
truly helps workers and small businesses around sports. I
welcome future bipartisan discussions on how to best serve
boxers and improve the boxing industry.
Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to enter into the
record.
Chairman Mackenzie. Without objection.
Ms. Omar. An op-ed by Oscar De La Hoya and Evander
Holyfield opposing H.R. 4624; a Tweet by Nico Ali Walsh
opposing the bill; an interview with a promoter Bob Arum
expressing opposition to the bill; an open letter from Mr. Arum
to the combat sports community and Congress opposing the
Revival Act; a letter from MMA Fighters Association opposing
the bill; a letter from Carlos ``The Ronin'' Newton, a member
of the MMA Fighters Association; a letter from Sara McMann, a
2004 Olympic silver medalist in wrestling, former UFC
contender, and now owner of a martial arts gym also opposing
the Revival Act.
I would also like to enter data from BoxRec about the
number of fights and boxing events in recent years.
Chairman Mackenzie. Without objection.
[The information referred to follows:]
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Chairman Mackenzie. I would just like to thank all of our
testifiers again for joining us here today. I think we all got
to share in some of the remembrances of not only the great
Muhammad Ali but other great fighters that we enjoyed watching
growing up and during that heyday and that golden age of
boxing, and again, Larry Holmes resides in our community, the
Easton Assassin. He has been there for a long time, and as a
child, I remember growing up and in school the talk and the
buzz was all about the Tyson/Holyfield fights and, you know,
what was coming up on pay per view. Everybody enjoyed those and
really looked forward to them, and it is something that we want
to try to get back to.
That is what this legislation is hoping to achieve by
reviving American boxing, and we know that it is such a great
sport, but in some ways, it is being constrained by the current
regulatory structure that is in place, by the outdated
practices not only for paying fighters but also keeping them
safe, and we want to make sure that we revive American boxing,
bring it back to its greatness and its glory, and I think can
we by working in a bipartisan fashion. Your testimony here
today is critically important as we start the process for H.R.
4624, the Muhammad Ali American Boxing Revival Act. This
hearing is just the beginning of the legislative process that
goes on here in Congress.
Look forward to welcoming amendments to be considered by
the Full Committee as we will hopefully take this legislation
up soon. Again, hopefully we can get back to a golden age of
American boxing and, as I say, make American boxing great
again. Thank you all for being here. With that, this meeting is
adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:38 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Additional submissions from Ranking Member Omar follows:]
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[Additional submissions from Chairman Mackenzie follows:]
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[Questions and responses submitted for the record by Mr.
Patrick C. English follows:]
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[Questions and responses submitted for the record by Mr.
Lawrence Epstein follows:]
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[Questions and responses submitted for the record by Mr.
Andy Foster follows:]
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