[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                    A NEW DAY AT THE SEC: RESTORING
                      ACCOUNTABILITY, DUE PROCESS,
                         AND PUBLIC CONFIDENCE
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON CAPITAL MARKETS

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                            FEBRUARY 4, 2026

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-55

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
       
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       

                            www.govinfo.gov
                               __________
                               
                               
                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63-862 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
                               
                               
                 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                    FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Chairman

BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan, Vice        MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking 
    Chairman                             Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas, Vice 
PETE SESSIONS, Texas                     Ranking Member
ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  BRAD SHERMAN, California
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas                GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
TOM EMMER, Minnesota                 DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                AL GREEN, Texas
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee              EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin               JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South        BILL FOSTER, Illinois
    Carolina                         JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio
MARLIN STUTZMAN, Indiana             JUAN VARGAS, California
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina         JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania          VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
YOUNG KIM, California                SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
BYRON DONALDS, Florida               AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York        RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          RITCHIE TORRES, New York
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska                 NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas             CLEO FIELDS, Louisiana
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee              JANELLE BYNUM, Oregon
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa                   SAM LICCARDO, California
LISA McCLAIN, Michigan
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TROY DOWNING, Montana
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
TIM MOORE, North Carolina

                      Ben Johnson, Staff Director

                                 ------                                

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON CAPITAL MARKETS

                     ANN WAGNER, Missouri, Chairman

ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York,       BRAD SHERMAN, California, 
    Vice Chairman                        Ranking Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
PETE SESSIONS, Texas                 GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                JUAN VARGAS, California
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin               JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
MARLIN STUTZMAN, Indiana             VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee              EMANUEL CLEAVER II, Missouri
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa                   STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
LISA McCLAIN, Michigan               CLEO FIELDS, Louisiana
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida               JANELLE BYNUM, Oregon
TROY DOWNING, Montana
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                      Wednesday, February 4, 2026
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Ann Wagner, Chairwoman of the Subcommittee on Capital 
  Markets, a U.S. Representative from Missouri...................     1
Hon. Brad Sherman, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Capital 
  Markets, a U.S. Representative from California.................     3

                               STATEMENTS

Hon. French Hill, Chairman of the Committee on Financial 
  Services, a U.S. Representative from Arkansas..................     4

                               WITNESSES

Mr. Peter Chan, Partner, Baker Mckenzie..........................     4
    Prepared Statement...........................................     7
Mr. Alexander Cohen, Partner & Co-Chair of the National Office, 
  Latham & Watkins...............................................    25
    Prepared Statement...........................................    26
Mr. Chris Iacovella, President and Chief Executive Officer, 
  American Securities Association (ASA)..........................    34
    Prepared Statement...........................................    36
Mr. Ben Schiffrin, Director of Securities Policy, Better Markets.    47
    Prepared Statement...........................................    49

                                APPENDIX

             ADDITIONAL MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

                              LEGISLATION

H.R. 3318, the SEC Modernization Act.............................    90
H.R. 216, the Securities Enforcement Clarity Act of 2025.........    93
H.R. ----, the SEC Reform and Restructuring Act..................    99
H.R. ----, the SEC Regulatory Accountability Act.................   130
H.R. ----, the SEC Cybersecurity Act.............................   140
H.R. ----, the SEC Transparency Act..............................   142
H.R. ----, the Review the Expansion of Government (REG) Act......   144
H.R. ----, the SEC Regulatory Evaluation, Verification, and 
  Integrity of Effective Workflows (REVIEW) Act..................   148
H.R. ----, the Streamlining Public Company Accounting Oversight 
  Act............................................................   153
H.R. ----, a bill to amend the Securities and Exchange Act of 
  1934 with respect to the authority of the Securities and 
  Exchange Commission to seek disgorgement, and for other 
  purposes.......................................................   164
H.R. ----, a bill to amend the securities laws to codify certain 
  disqualification waiver processes, and for other purposes......   167
H.R. ----, a bill to require the Comptroller General of the 
  United States to carry out a study regarding major rules issued 
  by the Securities and Exchange Commission......................   173
H.R. ----, a bill to establish a minimum public comment period 
  with respect to proposed rules issued by the Securities and 
  Exchange Commission............................................   176
H.R. ----, a bill to require the Director of the Office of 
  International Affairs of the Securities and Exchange Commission 
  to semiannually report to Congress with respect to discussions 
  with international securities standard setting bodies..........   178

 
                    A NEW DAY AT THE SEC: RESTORING
                      ACCOUNTABILITY, DUE PROCESS,
                         AND PUBLIC CONFIDENCE

                              ----------                              


                      Wednesday, February 4, 2026

             U.S. House of Representatives,
                   Subcommittee on Capital Markets,
                           Committee on Financial Services,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:03 p.m., in 
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Ann Wagner 
[chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Wagner, Garbarino, Lucas, 
Davidson, Steil, Stutzman, Ogles, McClain, Downing, 
Haridopolos, Hill, Sherman, Vargas, Casten, Waters, and Bynum.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The Subcommittee on Capital Markets will 
come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to 
declare a recess of the committee at any time.
    Today's hearing is titled: ``A New Day at the SEC: 
Restoring Accountability, Due Process, and Public Confidence.'' 
Without objection, all members will have five legislative days 
within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for 
inclusion in the record.
    Before I recognize myself for an opening statement, I do 
want to inform our witnesses, who so graciously appeared here 
today, along with both majority and minority that we are going 
to have a--this is going to go quickly here; a hard gavel. They 
have moved up votes to around 3:30 or so, and then we are 
recessed.
    So this is going to be--it will not be possible for us to 
come back. So, we are going to move through this as quickly as 
we possibly can. So I appreciate everyone's indulgence and 
certainly their valued time.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ANN WAGNER, CHAIRWOMAN OF THE 
  SUBCOMMITTEE ON CAPITAL MARKETS, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                            MISSOURI

    Good afternoon, and I want to thank our witnesses again for 
all those in attendance for joining us here today. This hearing 
is part of an ongoing effort by the subcommittee to examine how 
effectively the Securities and Exchange Commission is executing 
its congressional mandate and to ensure our regulatory 
framework supports rather than stifles the world's strongest 
capital markets.
    For several years, the Securities and Exchange Commission 
(SEC) drifted away from the principles that have long made our 
capital markets work. Rulemaking accelerated without sufficient 
economic analysis, enforcement actions increasingly replaced 
clear rules, and decisions of enormous consequence were made 
with too little transparency or accountability.
    That period raised serious concerns among public companies, 
Main Street investors, small businesses, and entrepreneurs 
about whether the SEC was faithfully serving its statutory 
mission.
    This hearing is not about relitigating the past; it is 
about ensuring the future of the SEC is grounded in the rule of 
law and respect for due process. Under Chairman Paul Atkins, 
the Commission has begun the hard work of righting the ship, 
restoring internal discipline, and recentering the agency back 
to its core statutory mission.
    We welcome that progress but progress alone is not enough. 
Lasting reform requires durable guardrails, and that is where 
Congress must lead. First, we must restore integrity to the 
SEC's rulemaking process. Rules should not be rushed, stacked 
on top of one another, or justified by speculative benefits 
with real costs are ignored.
    Notice and comment is not a box to check; it is a 
foundation of administrative law. Rigorous cost benefit 
analysis is not optional or cut and paste. It is essential to 
ensure that rules actually serve investors and markets rather 
than undermine them.
    Second, we must end regulation by enforcements. The SEC is 
a civil enforcement agency, not a policymaking substitute for 
Congress. Market participants deserve clear rules of the road 
before they are punished for crossing them. Enforcement should 
target fraud and clear violations of established rules, not 
serve as a substitute for notice and comment rulemaking or 
expand regulatory authority beyond what Congress has 
authorized.
    Third, we must address the SEC structure and internal 
decisionmaking. Over time, authority has drifted away from the 
commission itself toward staff-level actions that lack 
transparency and accountability. Structural reform is necessary 
to ensure major policy decisions are made by accountable 
officials and subject to proper oversight.
    That is why this subcommittee is examining targeted 
legislative reforms, including proposals to strengthen economic 
analyses requirements, reinforce meaningful public comment 
periods, clarify enforcement standards, and modernize the 
commission's structures so it operates efficiently and within 
its statutory bounds.
    Let me be clear, these reforms are not about weakening the 
SEC, they are about making the agency stronger, more credible, 
more predictable, and more faithful to the law.
    Today's witnesses will bring deep experience from inside 
and outside the commission. I look forward to restoring 
accountability, due process, and public confidence in the 
commission. Now the chair recognizes the ranking member of the 
subcommittee, Mr. Sherman, for 4 minutes or--what are we--do 
you want 4 minutes or 5 minutes, sir?
    Mr. Sherman. I will take 5 minutes, unless she shows up.
    Chairwoman Wagner. Mr. Sherman for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BRAD SHERMAN, RANKING MEMBER OF THE 
  SUBCOMMITTEE ON CAPITAL MARKETS, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                           CALIFORNIA

    Mr. Sherman. The title of this hearing implies that things 
at the SEC have gotten better over the last year. I would beg 
to differ. I agree that we should not have regulation by 
enforcement. Why? Because if you actually write irregulation, 
it is clear, it reflects input, it applies to everyone, and it 
is pretty stable. That is to say you get a new chair of the 
SEC, those regulations are still on the books, and we should 
both regulate and adjust regulation and deregulate by following 
the Administrative Procedure Act. Instead of regulation by 
enforcement, we have now deregulation by nonenforcement. We 
also have deregulation by capitulation. What does that mean? It 
means we are dealing here with regulations that affect billions 
and hundreds of billions of dollars and so there is a lot of 
money for a lot of lawyers to contest these regulations.
    So, somebody brings a case challenging a regulation, and 
instead of defending the regulation, the SEC erases the 
regulation not by going through the Administrative Procedure 
Act but simply tossing in the towel in a litigation. So, you 
get deregulation by capitulation.
    You then get deregulation by pardon, and this is certainly 
the most troubling aspect. You have got Justin Sun who buys a 
hundred million dollars worth of Trump coin, and then all of a 
sudden the investigation ends, the trial is dropped. You have 
got the Tyler and Cameron Winklevoss where the SEC terminates 
its lawsuit because these folks are very close to Trump. You 
get Ripple Labs.
    Again, the SEC drops the appeal of the case after a multi-
million dollar donation to the Trump ballroom and the 
inauguration committee.
    Finally, you have Mr. Zhao over at Binance, actually 
convicted of a crime, gets pardoned, and we will never know how 
much Trump coin was purchased but keep in mind, every dollar 
that you spend, quote, buying Trump coin can be secret. You can 
disclose it to one or two aides to the President, and all the 
money or a big, big chunk of it goes to the Trump family.
    Now, I am going to be a bit facetious here, but this SEC is 
demonstrating a hatred for Donald Trump. Because for this 
process to work, it started with Gensler enforcing the laws and 
then you have somebody who buys the Trump coin, and then the 
investigation is dropped or the convict is pardoned. What has 
happened here is that the SEC has cut its enforcement by staff 
by about 20 percent.
    Well, what that does is it cuts Trump's income by 20 
percent. There are fewer people charged, fewer people who have 
to buy Trump coin, fewer people that can get the pardon, or see 
the investigation stopped. This also and more seriously has had 
an adverse impact on our ability to police Wall Street.
    Defunding the police is not a good idea, and that is what 
we have defunded when we are going after crime in the suites.
    In 2024, the SEC levied $8.2 billion in fines, returned 3.2 
billion to investors. What we have seen in 2026 is that is one-
tenth of the fines, less than half the average amount of fines 
looking at over the last 10 years. As I have mentioned, the 
enforcement staff's been cut by 20 percent.
    Finally, we have an unipartisan SEC because when a Democrat 
leaves the SEC, no Democrat is replaced. For as long as I have 
been here, which goes back to the days of Moses, we have always 
had the minority party with two seats. We need genuine 
Democrats, not just people who change their authority 
affiliation a week before they were appointed, appointed to the 
SEC.
    If there is not going to be any Democrats on the SEC in the 
Trump term, what is the next Democratic President going to do? 
I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman's time has expired. I now 
recognize the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Hill, for 1 
minute for an opening statement.

  STATEMENT OF HON. FRENCH HILL, CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON 
    FINANCIAL SERVICES, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM ARKANSAS

    Chairman Hill. Thank you, Chair Wagner, and I appreciate 
the panel being with us today. The SEC plays a critical role in 
ensuring America's capital markets remain the envy of the 
world. However, during the Biden Administration, many market 
participants raised concerns about the bureaucratic overreach 
of that administration, and particularly regulation by 
enforcement at the commission.
    Accountability must be restored at the SEC by ensuring the 
commission follows the proper notice and comment procedures, 
reduces rigorous cost-benefit analyses, and reexamines its 
enforcement process. These actions will restore public 
confidence, create transparency, and increase stakeholder 
engagement.
    Under Chairman Atkins, we have seen significant progress 
and returning the SEC to its core mission of facilitating 
capital formation, protecting investors, and maintaining fair, 
orderly, and efficient markets. I look forward to the 
discussion today, and I thank the chair for yielding. I yield 
back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back. Today we 
welcome the testimony of Mr. Peter Chan, a partner at Baker 
McKenzie; Mr. Alexander Cohen, co-chair of the National Office 
of Latham & Watkins; Mr. Chris Iacovella, the president and CEO 
of the American Securities Association and; Ben Schiffrin, 
director of Securities Policy at Better Markets.
    We thank each of you for taking the time to be here. Each 
of you will be recognized for 5 minutes to give you oral 
presentation of your testimony. Without objection, your written 
statements will be made part of the record.
    Mr. Chan, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your 
oral remarks.

        STATEMENT OF PETER CHAN, PARTNER, BAKER McKENZIE

    Mr. Chan. Thank you, Chair Wagner, Ranking Member Sherman, 
and distinguished members on the Subcommittee on Capital 
Markets. I am Peter Chan, and I am partner at the global law 
firm of Baker McKenzie. The views I express in this testimony 
are my own.
    I testify today on how best to ensure a culture of fairness 
at the SEC through concrete steps that will preserve the good 
work already begun under the leadership of SEC Chairman Paul 
Atkins. My perspective is informed by decades of experience as 
a securities attorney, including close to 20 years at the SEC's 
Division of Enforcement.
    At the SEC, I had the privilege of working alongside 
commissioned staff members who are a hardworking, intelligent, 
and absolutely dedicated to the SEC's mission to protect the 
investing public. Being fair has always been part of the ethos 
of the staff I work with at the SEC but in recent years, the 
commission has lost its way when it comes to fairness.
    For example, the SEC has engaged in regulation by 
enforcement by setting de facto rules through enforcement 
actions without fair notice, as documented by a White Paper I 
co-author with my friend and former colleague, Valerie Mirko, 
for the Financial Services Institute.
    A recent example is the SEC's off-channel communications 
initiative involving the deployment of just about the entire 
enforcement staff to pressure over 100 financial funds to 
settle over $2 billion in penalties, even when there was no 
evidence of bad faith. Ironically, the commission itself was 
unable to comply with the same stringent standards that the SEC 
is enforcing against industry, as evidenced by the avoidable 
destruction of text messages of the then SEC Chairman Gensler.
    There is also the well-documented attempt to use 
enforcement actions to stifle innovations in digital assets and 
block chain technology.
    To pressure parties to settle cases where the SEC may not 
prevail in court, the enforcement staff has also engaged in 
unfair practices, such as threatening burdensome investigative 
requests or unwarranted outreach to customers if parties do not 
agree to settle.
    Despite the searing lessons from Madoff, the enforcement 
staff has been incentivized in recent years to pursue cases 
involving esoteric theories and large penalties that generated 
headlines, such as the off-channel communications initiative.
    The staff has failed to focus limited SEC resources to 
detect, prevent, or stop at inception, traditional intentional 
fraud schemes, cases that would have garnered little publicity 
but protected investors.
    The SEC should be focusing on getting rid of burdensome 
regulations that no longer make sense. Instead, the past 
commission engaged at a break-neck pace to promulgate rules, 
resulting in unfair process and bad rules.
    Thankfully, Chairman Atkins is righting the ship and 
returning fairness to the commission. He has issued key policy 
statements to reform enforcement, he has launched initiatives 
to reduce unnecessary regulatory burdens, but it is difficult 
to correct the course of an aircraft carrier, and there is no 
guarantee that future leadership will not deviate from the path 
of fairness.
    The commission should thus establish clear rules to hot-
wire fairness into the SEC's culture. An independent advisory 
committee of outside experts, as well as 2.0 committee can help 
the SEC further identify methods to align staff incentives to 
revitalize the SEC's culture of fairness. Better yet, 
legislation, including legislation currently proposed by 
members of this subcommittee can ensure that fairness will 
always be part of the SEC's DNA. Thank you, again, for the 
opportunity to testify today. I am happy to answer any 
questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Chan follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    Chairwoman Wagner. Thank you, Mr. Chan, and thank you for 
beating the clock.
    Mr. Cohen, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your 
remarks.

    STATEMENT OF ALEXANDER COHEN, PARTNER & CO-CHAIR OF THE 
               NATIONAL OFFICE, LATHAM & WATKINS

    Mr. Cohen. Chair Wagner, Ranking Member Sherman, and 
members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear 
before you today.
    I have been practicing as a securities lawyer for nearly 36 
of my 38-year legal career. During this time, I had the honor 
to serve as the SEC's Deputy General Counsel for Legal Policy 
Administrative Practice--a fancy title that basically means I 
was responsible for the regulatory program; later as the SEC's 
Deputy Chief of Staff to then Chairman Christopher Cox.
    This experience has led me to two overarching conclusions 
about the U.S. securities laws. First, the U.S. securities laws 
have been remarkably successful in making the United States a 
gold standard of securities regulation.
    Second, in the nearly 93 years since the passage of the 
Securities Act of 1933, the securities regulatory system has 
accumulated numerous features that like barnacles in the hull 
of a ship serve only to slow down progress.
    Congress now has the opportunity to sandblast some of these 
regulatory impediments off and I am very grateful to the 
subcommittee for the opportunity to add some sand to that 
undertaking.
    In the appendix of my testimony, I describe a package of 
ten improvements that Congress can make to SEC functioning and 
U.S. securities regulation organized into four broad 
categories: Modernizing the SEC structure; improving the SEC's 
regulation of public company accountants; reining in SEC 
regulatory overreach; and eliminating regulatory inefficiencies 
and failed initiatives.
    I recognize that my proposals range from the far-reaching 
to the quite technical, but I am convinced all would help 
assure that the United States retains its position as the 
leader of global securities regulation. I welcome your 
questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Cohen follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairwoman Wagner. Wow. Well done, Mr. Cohen.
    All right. You are pretty wordy, Iacovella. We will see, 
Chris. You are recognized for 5 minutes for your remarks.

  STATEMENT OF CHRIS IACOVELLA, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE 
         OFFICER, AMERICAN SECURITIES ASSOCIATION (ASA)

    Mr. Iacovella. Thank you, Chair Wagner, Ranking Member 
Sherman, and members of the committee for the opportunity to 
testify today. The ASA is a trade association of American 
financial services firms whose mission is to promote investor 
trust in confidence and support competitively balanced 
financial markets. We strongly support the SEC return to the 
mission that Congress gave it.
    Congress created the SEC in the wake of the 1929 Stock 
Market Crash to restore Americans' faith in our capital 
markets. For much of its history, the SEC did just that, 
becoming the world's preeminent securities regulator. However, 
since the 2008 financial crisis, a concerning trend has 
emerged. The SEC has increasingly acted outside the scope of 
its authority to pursue partisan political policies.
    The pendulum on the hot-button political and cultural 
issues has swung from administration to administration and this 
has turned the historically apolitical and technocratic agency 
into an unelected political actor. This injection of politics 
into our capital markets has created uncertainty for companies 
and their shareholders, and it has led to a multi-year transfer 
of wealth from American investors to a professional class that 
profits from unauthorized regulation.
    The SEC needs to be an objective regulator focused solely 
on its statutory mission, not one that caters to special 
interests regardless of where they sit on the political 
spectrum. Congress can end the SEC's mission drift by 
reasserting its policymaking prerogative over the agency. By 
that I mean, if Congress cannot agree on the details of a 
policy issue, then language about that policy should not be in 
the legislation, and a legislation should not include broad, 
opaque, or public interest language that allows unelected 
individuals to make policy decisions.
    Congress' delegation of its power to the administrative 
State has gone too far for too long, and it is the central 
reason the agency has become so politicized. If Congress does 
not reclaim its power now, then it risks sending letters that 
go unanswered and complaining about policies it did not 
authorize and that is certainly not what the Framers envisioned 
when they gave you the power to make law. Now I will briefly 
summarize the rest of my testimony.
    First, the commission's delegation of policymaking 
authority to career staff must end. This is appropriate solely 
for administrative matters but not policy decisions.
    Second, career staff must obtain commission approval to 
initiate industry-wide sweeps. This power is too great to be 
delegated to unaccountable career staff.
    Third, the public deserves a minimum 60-day comment period 
for rule proposals and at least 90 for complex rules.
    Fourth, the SEC needs to publish a transparent fine 
schedule for administrative rule violations, such as 
recordkeeping so the public understands how fines are 
calculated.
    Fifth, enforcement staff must be held to the same ethical 
standard as every other licensed attorney. Having staff 
sanctioned for lying to Federal courts and having to dismiss 
dozens of cases because staff enacted improperly erodes the 
public trust in the agency. To change this, senior leadership 
and the enforcement division should have securities experience, 
not just prosecutor experience.
    Sixth, SEC rules must respect cost-benefit analysis that 
Congress required. Using random unjustified costs and saying 
quote, We are unable to reliably quantify the potential 
benefits and cost of a rule, end quote, is unacceptable. This 
disregards a congressional directive specifically designed to 
stop unjustified rules from harming the economy.
    Seventh, SEC rules must be authorized by Congress. The 
public should not be subject to a comply or sue scenario. 
Lawsuits are costly, and repeated court losses damage the 
agency's credibility.
    Eighth, rule filings from the Financial Industry Regulatory 
Authority (FINRA) and the Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board 
(MSRB) should be sent directly to the commission. They should 
not be subject to pre-negotiated signoffs by career staff 
before going to the commissioners.
    Ninth, the SEC's unauthorized delegation of its core 
functions to self-regulatory organizations (SROs) must end. 
These delegations circumvent the appropriations process, and 
they impose open-ended costs on the industry that should be on 
the agency's budget. An example of this is the SEC's delegation 
of Consolidated Audit Trail (CAT) to the SROs which require the 
industry to fund a million-billion dollar regulatory 
surveillance scheme that illegally collects the personal and 
financial information of every American investor.
    Tenth, Congress should revisit the current structure of the 
agency to insulate it from partisan political pressure and 
while there are many ideas one might be that the commission 
should be evenly divided with permanent co-chairs, one from 
each party.
    Thank you again for the privilege of testifying today, and 
I look forward to taking your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Iacovella follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
            
    Chairwoman Wagner. I thank you, Mr. Iacovella.
    Mr. Schiffrin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for 
your remarks.

  STATEMENT OF BEN SCHIFFRIN, DIRECTOR OF SECURITIES POLICY, 
                         BETTER MARKETS

    Mr. Schiffrin. Good afternoon, Chairman Hill, Chairman 
Wagner, Ranking Member Sherman, and members of the 
subcommittee. Thank you for the invitation to testify today. My 
name is Ben Schiffrin, and I am the director of Securities 
Policy at Better Markets.
    Better Markets is a nonprofit, non-partisan and independent 
organization founded in the wake of the 2008 final crisis to 
promote the public interest in the financial markets, support 
reforms at Wall Street, and make the financial system work for 
all Americans.
    For 90 years since its creation in 1934, the mission of the 
Securities and Exchange Commission was to protect investors and 
it has done so by acting as an independent agency but in 2025, 
under current SEC Chair Paul Atkins, the SEC's mission changed.
    Chair Atkins views the SEC as an arm with the 
administration and his SEC exists to protect the financial 
industry. Chair Atkins may be ushering in a new day at the SEC, 
but he is not returning the SEC to its roots. Chair Atkins is 
turning his back on the SEC's historic mission of investigator 
protection.
    The SEC has spent the last year curtailing the rights of 
investors in public companies, endorsing the sale of risky and 
expensive private market acts to return investors, promoting 
the crypto industry relentlessly, reducing enforcements to its 
lowest levels in a decade. Dismantling the data base it uses to 
catch crooks and revisiting the lane or abandoning rules to 
protect investors.
    These actions have profound consequences for investors, 
markets, and our economy. The SEC's determination to prioritize 
the interest of Wall Street and corporate management comes with 
the expense of investor protection. It is fundamentally altered 
relationships between public companies and investors.
    The SEC has limited the ability of the investors to have a 
say in how the company is own or run, such as the small group 
of nuns in Kansas, who according to the National Public Radio 
(NPR), estimated they had filed over 350 shareholder 
resolutions over 20 years because they want to advocate for 
change at the companies in which they invest.
    The SEC has also made it harder for such investors to seek 
redress for corporate misconduct, and it has poised to 
significantly reduce the information investors receive about 
the companies they own.
    This transformation of the SEC's priorities and its broad-
based attack on disclosures, rights, and remedies will hurt all 
investors, including institutional investors, State and local 
pension funds, private retirement funds, and individual 
retirement accounts will all suffer as they get less 
disclosure, less protection, and fewer remedies and chances to 
recover also losses.
    At the same time as the SEC is making it harder to invest 
in public companies, it is making it easier for private market 
funds to solicit retail investors. Private market assets have 
long been considered risky for retired investors, because they 
lack the disclosure that a company publicly offered securities.
    The recent bankruptcy of the investment platform at Lido 
highlights the perils for retail investors in the private 
markets--with Bloomberg reporting that bankruptcy has left 
thousands of retail investors with frozen savings. Even the so-
called accredited investors doing private market threshold 
complain about the lack of transparency in the private markets 
and the reason private markets do not now want to access to 
these investors is that due to problems in the private markets, 
money from institutional investors is drying up.
    For example, The New York Times recently reported that Yale 
University's endowment and New York City's public worker 
pensions recently sold their stakes in some private equity 
funds at discounted prices to get cash back.
    Under the guise of Democratizing access to these 
securities, the SEC is trying to steer return investors into 
the private markets. At the same time, institutional investors 
are pulling back from assets that offer greater risk and lesser 
returns. These actions will not only hurt investors but also 
harm our markets and our economy.
    Our capital markets are the envy of the world, but that is 
because they are well-regulated and well-policed. Investors 
have faith and confidence in them. This has been our 
competitive advantage for almost a century and has thrown 
trillions of dollars worldwide into the U.S. markets. That will 
change as the U.S. retreats from protecting investors and 
enforcing the law to exploiting investors and protecting the 
industry.
    As investors' rights and protections are stripped away, 
investors look elsewhere to invest their money. That will hurt 
the economy, because it will be less money invested in the 
U.S., leading to fewer jobs and the businesses. So under this 
SEC, Wall Street and management win, but investors markets and 
our economy lose. Thank you, and I look forward to your 
questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Schiffrin follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairwoman Wagner. Thank you, Mr. Schiffrin. We will now 
turn to member questions, and I recognize myself for 5 minutes 
of questioning.
    Mr. Cohen. Members of this committee have repeatedly warned 
that 30-day comment periods are inadequate for understanding 
and providing meaningful replies or proposals that are hundreds 
of pages in length sometimes. This is not just a partisan 
concern. In October in 2022, 12 Senate Democrats wrote to the 
commission warning that these compressed windows were 
undermining the Democratic process.
    How would a statutory 60-day minimum comment period shift 
to process from a check-the-box exercise to a genuine dialog 
fulfilling the original intent of the Administrative Procedure 
Act?
    Mr. Cohen. Oh, well, thank you, Chair Wagner. I think that 
would be very helpful. The comment progress, as anyone who has 
been involved in it from the SEC side can tell you yields a lot 
of really interesting, important feedback. Sometimes very 
critical, but that of itself is often very useful.
    Just to cite an example that I was involved in, the SEC's 
de-special purpose acquisition companies (SPAC) rules, in 
particular, proposed Rule 140(a) were the subject of 
considerable amount of criticism and that is really complicated 
stuff. You just could not do it in 30 days. So I think 60 days 
is a very good idea.
    Chairwoman Wagner. Thank you. Mr. Chan, this committee will 
work to ensure that the progress made to restore a materiality-
based approach to SEC regulation and enforcement is permanent 
and cannot be reversed.
    In your view, would codifying the SEC regulatory 
Accountability Act, for instance, which requires definitive 
problem identification before rulemaking provide the necessary 
guardrails to prevent a future administration from reverting to 
regulation by enforcement?
    Mr. Chan. Chair Wagner, your question very astutely 
identifies the age-old problem of the phenomenon of solution 
looking for a problem. I do think that having statutory 
guardrails to make sure that there is actually a material 
problem or an issue that needs fixing would very much assist 
the SEC in focusing on fairness and going after fraud.
    I think in terms of the answer on regulation by 
enforcement, it will help. I note one of the problems is that 
when there are guardrails on rulemaking, that is when 
temptation regulated by enforcement is the greatest. So, I do 
think that combined with policies and rules that will limit 
regulation by enforcement, I think, is the key.
    Chairwoman Wagner. Thank you. Mr. Iacovella, in your 
testimony you suggest that Congress itself may bear some 
responsibility for the SEC drift, particularly, when statutes 
delegate broad discretion or rely on open-ended public interest 
standards.
    From your perspective, how can Congress write clear, more 
durable securities law that constrain regulatory overreach 
while still giving the SEC enough authority to respond to real 
market risks?
    Mr. Iacovella. Thank you for the question. I think this 
body did just that with the Jobs Act. In Title 1, you made it 
self-effectuating and as soon as it was passed, companies 
started the initial public offering (IPO) using that. What did 
not happen in the rest of the Jobs Act where the other titles, 
general solicitation and crowd funding, those took a lot of 
time with SEC comment, and they were watered down in way that 
was not negotiated in a bipartisan way in this body at the 
time.
    So, having language that takes effect immediately upon 
being signed by the President is very important because it 
bypassed the rulemaking process and you can give them some time 
to review that after a two-to 3-year period to see if the 
correction--if there are corrections that are necessary to 
improve processes.
    Chairwoman Wagner. Would you like to expand on any of the--
how many do you have--ten, 12 different recommendations for 
this esteemed committee to consider legislatively?
    Mr. Iacovella. I would add one point on the comment 
period--and I think you were noting it--it really harms small 
businesses who do not----
    Chairwoman Wagner. Yes.
    Mr. Iacovella [continuing]. who do not have an Army of 
lawyers or a lot of legal budget to be able to outsource to 
comment on a complex rule in a 30-day time span and that is why 
it is necessary to be at least 60.
    Chairwoman Wagner. I am tired of cut and paste cost 
benefits where we do not hear the truth about the cost and/or 
the benefits. So, thank you very much for the testimony. I now 
recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, Mr. Sherman, 
for 5 minutes for questions,
    Mr. Sherman. Thank you. I kind of made the mistake in my 
opening statement because I mentioned deregulation by 
nonenforcement, deregulation by capitulation, and deregulation 
by pardon, and I forgot deregulation by Tweet.
    We have seen the President of the United States say that 
shareholders should not be able to put forward proposals to 
committees, and that you should not be able to hire an adviser 
as to how to vote your shares. Although, companies are free to 
hire five or ten law firms on their side.
    Then we see--and this is I think the most extreme thing--
the President say we should get rid of quarterly financial 
reports. What an insane idea. Obviously, rumor mills are 
going--whoever picks up the rumor is going to be in a stronger 
position and those who are relying on official reviewed or 
audited financial statements are going to be in a worse 
position.
    There are two areas where I think the SEC should be acting 
and just refuses to act. One of these is the Small Business 
Investor Capital Act which is there to correct how they 
calculate expenses so that small business--so that business 
development corporations can be, as a practical matter, 
included in mutual funds. This committee has passed this bill 
over and over again, and the SEC sits and does nothing.
    In addition, this committee has done much to try to save 
some trees by providing for e-delivery. As I have commented 
here before, e-delivery is sometimes better because if you get 
it on paper, you tend to throw it away--I mean it is--whereas, 
if you get it on electronically and you happen to have some 
extra time, perhaps you are at a hearing and looking for 
something to read, you can go back and find it and read it but 
this committee has acted again and again. It is time for the 
SEC to do its job.
    I agree with our chairwoman about the need for more than 
30-day comment period on major regulations but I disagree with 
what she mentioned and what others have mentioned and that is 
materiality having nothing to do with anything other than an 
expert share.
    Mr. Schiffrin, is there something illegitimate about an 
investor who thinks that greenhouse gases or conflict diamonds 
are material to their decision as to where they want to invest?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Thank you for the question. No, I think 
there is a lot of information besides financial information 
that is material that can form the investment decision that 
investors want to make, and certainly things like the effective 
climate change on a company's operations would be one of those 
things.
    Mr. Sherman. Now, I think one of our witnesses had 
suggested the idea that we permanently have an evenly split 
SEC. I find that intriguing. It is probably a good idea but at 
least we have had a situation where there would be two from the 
minority party. Congress structured the SEC to be an 
independent bipartisan irregulator. Yet, we were down to one 
Democratic commission for 12 months, and now we are down to 
zero and there is no end in sight.
    Mr. Schiffrin, why is it important to have two Democrats on 
the SEC in a bipartisan board?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Well, because you need a diversity of 
viewpoints on the commission that is going to not only make the 
commission's rules better in the long run, but also more 
durable in the long run. I think Congress is kind of a good 
example right. My perception is that Congress tries to do 
everything on a bipartisan basis, and I think it would be 
better for the SEC to do that as well. That way, you know if 
another administration comes in, it is going to be way harder 
to undue something that was passed 5-0 versus 3-0 or 3-2.
    Mr. Sherman. Then we had this with the Consumer Financial 
Protection Bureau (CFPB) and discussions as top whether to have 
a board or an individual. Those who wanted the most extreme 
actions went with the single Member and so we had a single 
person making the decisions. Now, we have a single person 
erasing all the--well, actually, they have erased the board 
altogether and there is something to be said for moving the 
pendulum less in one direction and less than the another, and I 
yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Arkansas, the 
chairman of the full Financial Services Committee, Mr. Hill, 
for 5 minutes.
    Chairman Hill. Thanks, Chair Wagner. Again, I appreciate 
the panel being here. I have spent really almost three decades 
as a registered person. The last 10 years not registered but I 
will reflect back on that. I was National Association of 
Securities Dealers (NASD) FINRA registered since 1986. I was 
chairman of the District Business Conduct Committee in New 
Orleans, District Six. I was on the Small Firms Advisory Board. 
I have been a corporate director for a public company. So, I 
spent a lot of my life with the 33 and 34 acts and all the 
great work all of you have advocated for.
    One of the things as a CEO, a managing general principal 
with three different firms, it just irritated the absolute tar 
out of me is this idea that we are going to start with 
enforcement before we inform anybody of what it is that we are 
trying to solve.
    I want to visit with Mr. Iacovella, because this one really 
burns me up because it is a classic example where people assert 
that if they do not correct this immediately, our world will 
come to an end. It will cease spinning on its axis.
    So the government decides to shut down the economy during 
coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). None of us knew what was 
going to be the--we were here. We did not know what the real 
result of all this was. We were dealing with the crisis in real 
time just like the private sector was. But--so, people who were 
financial advisers, registered broker dealer employees were 
sent home, and I do not think they were told not to ever talk 
to their customers again. So they were sent home, and they 
probably had a virtual private network (VPN) to dial into a 
laptop that maybe was company-owned, maybe it was not. A lot of 
people in the modern world do not have a landline, so they were 
talking on their cell phone.
    Well, that is the case for everyone here. All the Members 
of Congress. Exactly the same situation. Not ideal but here 
comes the commission suddenly in 2021, and suddenly dreams up 
this idea that, oh, my God, there are people with off-channel 
communications. These registered broker dealers are not storing 
every text message. Clearly, this is a violation of 
communications rules, the correspondence rules, the approval by 
a principal of anything you say to a client rule, and they 
began to enforce that.
    I do not think my friends on either side of the aisle 
really appreciate how outrageous this was. Starting with C-
suite, we want all your texts, we are going to write you a 
letter, our lawyer is going to contact you. If you do not give 
us all your texts and access to your phone, we are going to 
then, I guess, take action against the firm. It resulted in 
billions and billions and billions of dollars of fines for 
these firms for something that all you had to do was say in a 
notice to members under FINRA or under a proper rulemaking from 
the SEC, we believe now in the modern age that we want to 
collect and treat as correspondence, treat as principle-
approved communication, texting, or emails, or even a telephone 
call on your personal phone because you were sent home from 
your office. So, no, we are not recording it and there is 
nobody here that would dispute that but instead of publishing a 
notice to members, we just start fining people.
    Yet, we have a chairman of the SEC who has lost his text 
messages that we have subpoenaed from this committee for. So 
the hypocrisy is not lost on me or on an Inspector General at 
the SEC.
    So, Mr. Iacovella, how do we get this back on track? Firms 
want to do good-faith compliance. All you have to do is tell a 
firm, here is our expectation, here is the timeframe, and we 
want you to comply.
    How did the scale and structure of these penalties affect 
perceptions of fairness and credibility at the SEC?
    Mr. Iacovella. Thank you, Congressman. I think what you 
said is exactly what should have been done. There should have 
been a notice to the industry that said, we understand there 
were extenuating circumstances during COVID, and that people 
communicated through texting. We would expect you before the 
next examination to collect all of that information and have it 
ready. If you do not, then there better be a good reason why 
and you could be subject to fines as a result of that but that 
is not what happened.
    Chairman Hill. Right.
    Mr. Iacovella. What happened was----
    Chairman Hill. I would go into the details, but there is a 
perfectly good case study about exactly what we are talking 
about today under the leadership of Ann Wagner. I would say 
what hypocrisy that the chairman of the SEC cannot produce and 
retain his own text messages for review by this committee. I 
yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The chairman yields back and the chair 
now recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. Vargas, for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Vargas. Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and ranking 
member, and especially I want to thank the witnesses today.
    Mr. Cohen, you set up a very provocative analogy. You set 
up this analogy of a ship that has barnacles on it. It has been 
sailing for 93 years, and it has collected these in such a way 
that it has caused the ship not to be very efficient in its 
movement. So they should be--and I want to quote you--
sandblasted off, so then it could move more efficiently.
    The analogy is a good one. However, I am from San Diego, 
and I worked in the shipyard. We normally do not sandblast. It 
depends on the hull. You would not sandblast the barnacles 
because you would actually damage the ship. If it was 
fiberglass, you would water blast them and if it was a steel 
ship, would you sandblast?
    The reason I say that is because sandblast is much harsher 
than water blasting. Although, there are some water blasters, 
of course, that are very profound. The reason I say that is I 
think that there probably are some rules and regulations that 
should be taken off this ship. By the way, if I had to hire an 
attorney, I would hire you. You are very capable, I see and you 
are also very precise. I know you would not churn my case. Your 
testimony was fantastic.
    Mr. Sherman. I do not think you could afford him.
    Mr. Vargas. I could not afford him either. That is true, 
too.
    So, Mr. Schiffrin, how would you confront that reality that 
there are barnacles on the ship? Instead of sandblasting, how 
would you water blast them off? Now I do want to give you a 
chance to come back, Mr. Cohen.
    Mr. Schiffrin, why do you not start with that. If we are 
going to blast, are we not blasting too hard? If he is going to 
use sand, I mean, is it not the problem that we then erase a 
lot of these investor protections?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Thank you for the question. I think that is 
exactly right. We have to be careful not to throw the baby out 
with the bathwater, so to speak. It is one thing for the SEC to 
go back and look at its rules and say, well, this particular 
rule that was passed 50 years ago maybe no longer makes any 
sense. Right now what the SEC is doing is seemingly eliminating 
core investor protections. Chair Atkins has talked about 
revising Regulation S-K, which is core disclosures, not 
financial disclosures, but other material information that 
investors rely on. Disclosure is the bedrock of securities 
regulation in this country, and we cannot just be doing away 
with that.
    Mr. Vargas. Mr. Cohen, I do want to give you an opportunity 
to discuss that.
    Mr. Cohen. Well, thank you, Congressman. You are quite 
right, I did make the assumption that the SEC is whole with 
steel rather than fiberglass and having had the experience as a 
teenager having to hand clean fiberglass hulls, I would not 
wish it on Congress or anyone else.
    I think the point that I was really trying to make is that 
the success of U.S. securities regulation does not mean that we 
have to regard the system as static, and that, in fact, we 
should be open to making changes.
    For example, one of the proposals that I made in my 
appendix was to add a vice chairman to the position of the 
chairman. My observation from being in the chairman's office is 
that the chairman of the SEC has too many direct reports, too 
many statutory responsibilities, and it impedes his or her 
ability to be effective in the job. I think we all would like 
the SEC to be run on an effective basis.
    Mr. Vargas. Right, but you do have a vice chair at the Fed, 
and I do not think that necessarily makes it more efficiently. 
How would that protect really investors' rights?
    Mr. Cohen. Well, I think the issue is that it is very 
difficult when a chairman has--and I think from the last time I 
looked at the org chart--something like 26 direct reports, plus 
statutory responsibilities at the Financial Stability Oversight 
Council (FSOC), at Federal Housing Financial Agency at the 
International Organization of Securities Commissions (IOSCO). 
It is just difficult to spend time doing the kind of strategic 
thinking that you would really want an SEC chair to do to 
really drive forward regulation in the right way. You risk 
being bogged down in too much detail. Again, I think from all 
of our perspective, effectiveness is really what we would like 
to see of regulation.
    Mr. Vargas. Mr. Schiffrin, would you like to comment on 
that? The last comment you made that really what they are 
looking at is effectiveness, trying to move more efficient.
    Mr. Schiffrin. Well, what I really want the SEC to be is 
effective as possible. I do not know that it has been in the 
last year. I am not sure if adding a vice chair position is 
what it needs to do so much as recognize that its mission is 
investor protection. I think it seemed to lose track of that in 
the last year.
    Mr. Vargas. I guess, with my last 20 seconds, I say it is 
obvious that in one administration goes one way a little bit 
more than the other way, but when there is no representation at 
all, I think there is the danger that it swings too far one 
way, and I do think there should be Democratic representation 
from the SEC. With that, I thank the chair, and I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back. The chair 
recognizes the gentlewoman from Michigan, Mrs. McClain, for 5 
minutes.
    Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for 
holding this hearing. I thank you all for being here. I 
appreciate it.
    I spent a little time in the financial services industry 
myself, about 35 years, and I saw the evolution, especially 
around FINRA. When I started, FINRA used to be an agency. It 
was really concerned with overseeing the educational arm, 
right, our continuing education (CE) credits, making sure we 
are properly licensed, et cetera, et cetera.
    It seems that FINRA has just grown out of that a little 
bit. I am not really sure how it got there.
    So, Mr. Iacovella, I was wondering if you could enlighten 
us a little bit on how FINRA has evolved from more a licensing 
and educational organization, which is what it originally was 
set out to do into its current form of really an unaccountable 
regulatory agency. Can you explain how that happened?
    Mr. Iacovella. Well, I mean, what it does now is regulating 
broker dealers and SEC delegates what it does not want to do in 
relation to broker dealers and oversight of the security 
markets to FINRA and to other SROs. I think that is the concern 
that you are trying to raise here is that delegation has not 
been authorized by Congress, and it has happened by virtue of 
the agency doing it on its own accord.
    Mrs. McClain. Yes, and that is extremely concerning to me 
because it seems like we have one more layer of bureaucracy out 
there. Even more concerning with that is the lack of 
transparency. Right?
    I am curious to get your information or your opinion on--
what threats do you think FINRA poses to capital markets? 
Because they write the rules, they enforce the rules, and they 
really keep a lot of those proceeds from the plaintiffs.
    Mr. Iacovella. You are touching on a very important topic 
right now, and I think it has been the subject of multiple 
lawsuits by individuals against FINRA, and I think it is 
something that this body should really take up, which is what 
is FINRA? Is it a private institution that is member-driven, or 
is it a governmental entity? What powers does it have that it 
should be using? Should it be an enforcement agency? That is an 
open question that this body should answer. Should it be an 
adjudicatory agency for arbitration. I mean, these are 
functions that were set out in three different branches in our 
Constitution, and they have been rolled up into one entity that 
is not accountable to anybody but the SEC and to hopefully this 
body.
    Mrs. McClain. Yes, I would agree with you. I think I would 
encourage Congress to really take a look at the role of FINRA 
and get some definition of what their job and what their 
responsibilities truly are because I think the problem people 
have with FINRA is they do not know what they do not know. When 
you are the judge, the jury and the executioner, people kind of 
get a little weary of that.
    Just curious, when FINRA comes in and assesses a fine to a 
firm, what happens to those fines? Do those fines get back to 
the plaintiff? What happens to those fines?
    Mr. Iacovella. I believe that when FINRA assesses a broker 
dealer with a fine, that the money goes into its general fund.
    Mrs. McClain. Into FINRA's general fund?
    Mr. Iacovella. Yes, ma'am.
    Mrs. McClain. Any idea what that general fund is worth?
    Mr. Iacovella. There were previous reports that FINRA has 
over $2 billion in its funds.
    Mrs. McClain. $2 billion? Do they use that for educational 
training for helping firms do a better job--maybe as Chairman 
Hill was talking about earlier, helping people get out of the 
State of uncertainty that they may be in? What do they use that 
$2 billion for?
    Mr. Iacovella. Salaries. They----
    Mrs. McClain. Salaries to go back and collect more fines?
    Mr. Iacovella. Yes, yes.
    Mrs. McClain. Just out of curiosity, what does the 
President of FINRA make? Do you know?
    Mr. Iacovella. I am not sure of the exact figure, but I 
understand----
    Mrs. McClain. Would you call me a liar if it was around 4 
million?
    Mr. Iacovella. That sounds about right.
    Mrs. McClain. Just curious. Can you explain a little bit of 
a lack of accountability that FINRA has and how that results in 
higher fees, fewer investment choices, and lower returns?
    The because the biggest concern I have is with all the 
rules and regulations right now, it would be really tough to 
start a new firm. So, I am curious if you could touch on that.
    Mr. Iacovella. I think it is extremely difficult to start a 
new firm, and compliance costs are overwhelming for small 
firms. That is why a lot of them are going away. They are 
either being bought out, merging, or they just go out of 
business.
    Mrs. McClain. Yes, FINRA is sitting on about $2 billion. 
With that, Madam Chair, I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. 
Casten, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Casten. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks all of you for 
being here. So I want to lay my biases up first. I had some 
real concerns with Chair Atkins' leadership and particularly 
for the way that he has weakened investor protections and in so 
doing weakened confidence in U.S. markets.
    I want to get specifically--and there is no way to say this 
without getting political, but SEC's recent decision to stop 
reviewing no action decisions per shareholder proposals is 
going to allow firms to exclude various environmental, social, 
and governance (ESG) requests. You cannot say the word ``ESG'' 
without getting in some nonsense culture war fight now.
    The debate as I understood capitalism. Most of my adult 
life was between Milton Friedman's view of shareholder 
capitalism and some broader view of stakeholder capitalism.
    If the owners of a company have things they want to know 
about the risk exposure of that company, and management 
disagrees, if you believe Milton Friedman, the shareholders 
here will have the final say. Yet, these no-action rules say, 
well, if you are doing things that affect environmental issues 
or government issues or employment issues, somehow that is off 
the table.
    So, basically, we are just going say, forget about 
shareholders, forget about stakeholders. I am just going to 
elevate the C-suite.
    I want to, specifically, give a recent example. Last year, 
the SEC granted no action related to Exxon Mobile over their 
problem which would enable retail investor to automatically 
cast their votes on shareholder proposals in favor of 
management, at few future meetings, before they even know what 
they are voting on.
    Mr. Iacovella, you issued a statement in support of that 
saying that the SEC's decision prioritizes the interest of 
working families, savers, and retirees.
    I guess what I am wondering is how does that meaningfully 
prioritize individual investors' preferences if they have to 
vote before they know what they are voting on?
    Mr. Iacovella. Well that particular program that you just 
described I think that there are some issues with it. I was not 
aware of it exactly.
    Mr. Casten. But you would put a statement in support of 
this. I mean, I sort of think, like in Illinois--respect, Mr. 
Chan, Illinois--we have a primary on March 17, which means my 
voters will know who my opponent is on the Republican side of 
the ticket on March 18. If I went and asked them to vote for me 
now before they know who my opponent is, I am hard pressed to 
say how that enhances democracy. Yet, that is essentially what 
the SEC has allowed Exxon to do.
    Let me move on. Mr. Cohen, Exxon's stated purpose was they 
said to enhance retail participation at shareholder meetings. 
Is it your understanding that is why Exxon created that 
program.
    Mr. Cohen. Well, I cannot comment specifically to it.
    Mr. Casten. Because there was a client alert from your firm 
saying that retail voting is an effective tool to help defeat 
an activist investor in a proxy fight but I think in practical 
reality, as we all know, there are large sophisticated 
investors--he pension funds, mutual funds--what have you and 
there is a lot of small retail folks. If you basically bake 
them in, I go back to my example, if I get everybody to vote 
for me before, why do forums? I have already baked in the win, 
right? Are you not effectively just disenfranchising the most 
sophisticated participants in your capital structure.
    Mr. Cohen. Well, thank you very much for the question. 
There was a speech that the general counsel for whom I worked 
with, Brian Cartwright, gave in 2007 talking about the notion 
of its an ugly word deretailization, but he was making a point 
that because of the enormous concentration of money in funds, 
it is very difficult to actually for retail investors to have 
any particular say at least on fraud. So it is a phenomenon 
of----
    Mr. Casten. Look, I take--I mean, look, we can go into our 
history. Our Founders were not really wild about Joe Rubin of J 
Street either, that is why we have the senate but structurally 
either we like democracy or we do not.
    I want to shift just quickly to tokenization. Last week the 
SEC issued a statement confirming that a tokenized stock is 
still a security regardless of whether it is representing a 
blockchain or a derivative. Mr. Iacovella, do you share the 
SEC's view.
    Mr. Iacovella. Yes, I think it should take the form of 
whatever it tokenizes from a regular tourist standpoint. So it 
is subject to the National Market System (NMS) if it is 
inequity.
    Mr. Casten. I appreciate that. So would you oppose 
legislation that would create a loophole that would allow 
companies to get out of SEC jurisdiction just because they had 
a tokenized security?
    Mr. Iacovella. No, I would not oppose that. Oh, we would 
oppose that, yes. Sorry, I am sorry.
    Mr. Casten. Okay, okay. Well, that was why I posed the 
CLARITY Act last year that passed out of this committee because 
what the CLARITY Act said is if you tokenize your securities, 
you can get away from those sorts of protections.
    I leave that to come back to where I started, either this 
SEC is going to protect investor rights and investor 
disclosures and not pretend something that something is not a 
security. If it walks and talks and quacks like a security or 
it is not. I think it behooves us to fix----
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Casten. I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The chair now recognizes the gentleman 
from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, who is the chair of the Task Force on 
Monetary Policy, Treasury Market Resilience, and Economic 
Prosperity. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Lucas. That is a mouthful, chairman. Thank you and 
thank you to our witnesses here today. I think one of the 
things we would all agree on so far in course of this hearing 
is that the SEC looks dramatically different from the SEC 2 
years ago. It is truly a new day at the commission.
    Mr. Chan, can you speak to the enforcement side of the 
commission? How would you characterize the change in it capital 
markets under Chairman Atkins' leadership.
    Mr. Chan. It has been traumatic and it is going back to 
commonsense. If you take a quick look at the enforcement cases 
since Chairman Atkins appointed Judge Ryan to be the director 
of enforcement, you will notice the majority of the cases 
involve going after intentional fraud. I think that is 
something that sitting here in this room we all agree that is 
what the SEC should be doing. As someone who has gone after 
fraudsters, Ponzi schemers, executives who have lied, cheat and 
stolen, it is tough to go after fraudsters who tried to avoid 
detection.
    I think if you think about what the SEC did in the previous 
administration where they spent the entire resources of the SEC 
going after people who might have used an emoji on a text 
message or might have gone by an interpretation crushed a 
little yellow sticky that is considered a violation of the law.
    I worry about how much was missed in terms of failure to 
detect intentional fraud. So I really applaud the chairman in 
terms of returning the SEC going back to its core, which is 
going after intentional fraud with an enforcement perspective.
    Mr. Lucas. Mr. Cohen, this committee reported out my 
bipartisan bill last month, it would establish a public company 
advisory committee within the SEC. That seems to align with the 
progress Chairman Atkins has already made increasing 
transparency with the commission and seeking broad industrial 
feedback on potential regulatory changes. What is your view, 
does the commission benefit from thoughtful rulemaking that 
takes into account the impacts to market participants.
    Mr. Cohen. Absolutely. There is no question that makes 
regulation better when you have that kind of feedback.
    Mr. Lucas. Continuing with you, Mr. Cohen, can you describe 
the benefits of using the process established under the 
Administrative Procedures Act to regulate our market behavior 
rather staff bulletins that previous administration relied on?
    Mr. Cohen. Well, notice and comment rulemaking is an 
extremely effective tool because of the complexity of all the 
financial markets it is simply very difficult, even for a very 
knowledgeable regulators to actually be able to get the full 
understanding of what the import of the actions that they are 
taking are.
    There is of course always a room for interpretation, there 
is always a room for staff action, you need that also as a 
safety valve but certainly notice and comment ought to be the 
preferable way to go.
    Mr. Lucas. Absolutely. Mr. Iacovella, the commission has 
begun right size regulation, restoring progrowth opportunities 
capital markets. How does the Incentivizing New Ventures and 
Economic Strength Through Capital Formation (INVEST) Act build 
on that work and make these policies durable for future 
administrations?
    Mr. Iacovella. There are a few ways, section 301, title 3, 
allowing EGCs to do 2 years of financial statements instead of 
3. That is very important and that it is going to be taken up 
immediately once the INVEST Act passes the Senate.
    Also, you are directing the SEC to expand the test the 
waters provision. That is a very useful provision that provides 
good feedback between the companies and the SEC so that they 
know and they have a fully prepared statement when it is time 
to go IPO and I think lowering the well-known seasoned dish or 
a requirement from 700 to 400 was very important as well.
    I mean, it allows the ease of follow-on offerings for small 
and mid-cap companies and that is what allows them to become 
large cap companies.
    Mr. Lucas. Absolutely. I thank the panel for your 
observations and your insights. I yield back, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back and the chair 
now recognizes the gentlewoman from California, Ms. Waters, who 
is also the ranking member.
    Ms. Waters. Thank you very much. Thank you.
    Mr. Schiffrin, in this and prior Congresses I have offered 
proposals to increase transparency and accountability in our 
private markets. Your testimony echoes many of the concerns my 
proposal would remedy and paints a troubling picture of the 
SEC's agenda to undermine our public markets.
    You say that Chairman Atkins prioritized the needs of 
private equity firms over the safety of everyday American 
investors. You also argue that the private markets are 
inherently riskier, less transparent, more expensive and less 
liquid than our public markets.
    I am going to ask you a series of questions about private 
markets and would appreciate to the extent possible a brief yes 
or no answer. Is it true that private markets have performed 
worse than the S&P 500 over the past 5 years?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Yes.
    Ms. Waters. Is it true that institutional investors like 
private equity and pension funds are currently fleeing private 
markets due to under performance?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Yes.
    Ms. Waters. Is the SEC now attempting to steer retail 
investors into these private markets at the exact moment that 
large institutional investors are pulling back from them?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Yes.
    Ms. Waters. Is it also true that Chairman Atkins recently 
permitted an exchange graded fund to invest in private credit 
despite SEC career staff concerns regarding the liquidity and 
valuation of those assets?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Yes.
    Ms. Waters. Well, does not the expansion of private 
offerings without the same kinds of disclosures require for 
public companies increase the risk of fraud for retail 
investors?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Yes.
    Ms. Waters. Is it your opinion that pushing mom and pop 
investors to add these unregistered securities to their nest 
egg will likely lead to significant financial losses for them 
and millions of American families?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Yes, I think it is very risky for retail 
investors to enter the private markets.
    Ms. Waters. Finally, what advice would you have for both 
Congress and the SEC as it contemplates allowing companies and 
their Wall Street brokers to sell private assets to everyday 
investors?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Well, I think you have to bear in mind that 
is kind of antithetical to the Federal securities laws. If you 
are talking about selling private market assets to retail 
investors, you are talking about selling them to the general 
public.
    If you are making a public offering of securities, you are 
supposed to register that with the SEC and provide all the 
disclosures that a public offering entails and those 
disclosures they like to protect investors. If you are talking 
about offering private market securities to retail investors, 
you are talking about doing something that really the law does 
not provide for without detailed disclosures under the 
securities laws.
    Ms. Waters. Do you consider that the SEC is independent?
    Mr. Schiffrin. Can you repeat the question?
    Ms. Waters. The SEC, who controls it? Is it independent or 
the President involved, who----
    Mr. Schiffrin. It should be an independent agency and that 
is historically what it has been. I think Chair Atkins seems to 
view it more as an arm of the administration.
    Ms. Waters. Well, let me just tell you this, we have fought 
very hard and we have to keep fighting to fund and make sure 
that the SEC has what it needs to be the cop on the block. So 
all you have to do is not help them get any resources, no money 
to do the job and they get to do what they want to do, and 
nothing gets done. Is that an issue that is a concern to you 
and others.
    Mr. Schiffrin. Yes, I think I SEC needs resources in terms 
of funding and in terms of staff so that it can do its main 
job, which is to be the cop on the Wall Street beat and ensure 
that financial fraudsters are not taking advantage of everyday 
Americans.
    Ms. Waters. Has it traditionally been understaffed?
    Mr. Schiffrin. I think that the SEC has to regulate $100 
trillion capital markets and it has always been underfunded and 
understaffed. In that respect, I think that the reason staffing 
cuts at the SEC only exacerbate the already difficult task that 
the SEC has in regulating the size of those markets.
    Ms. Waters. Well, thank you very much. I am concerned. I 
yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The ranking member yields back.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. 
Davidson and chair of the subcommittee on National Security, 
Illicit Finance, and International Financial Institutions. You 
are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Davidson. Thank you, chairwoman, witnesses I thank you 
for your testimony and your work in the field.
    We are coming off the wake of Gary Gensler's failed 
leadership at the Securities and Exchange Commission. For years 
I sought to fire Gary Gensler. We never succeeded in that but 
frankly one of the first things that happened when Donald Trump 
became President is we fired Gary Gensler. All of capital 
markets are better because of it. So we saw really a mind-set 
in terms of the senior leader at the Securities and Exchange 
Commission really shape everything and that led me to question 
is the structure even right at the Securities and Exchange 
Commission.
    So I looked at maybe it should be at parity so that no one 
party has it, because everybody had deferred to Gary Gensler 
and we did not have the votes to change course on it. So then 
you have a yo-yo back and forth, one idea versus the other. I 
thought, maybe the 80/20 issues the commission on a deal was 
because then partisanship would not be the driver for some of 
the policy approaches because that is really what we saw is the 
war on crypto led out of Elizabeth Warren's office in the 
Senate was basically had a foot soldier in Gary Gensler.
    Now we are trying to pass regulatory clarity in Congress. I 
had a colleague earlier characterize that if you tokenize the 
security under the CLARITY Act, it is not a security. No, if 
you tokenize the security, it is still a security.
    What the CLARITY Act says is that if you tokenize something 
that is not a security, then not a security. Gary Gensler 
struggled with that idea, and he did sue and subtle things not 
to provide clarity. He did not do structured rulemaking with 
notice and comment periods. He did regulation by enforcement. 
One of the examples I always put on to you is they sued one of 
the Kardashian people and settled for $1 million, $2 million 
for marketing an unregistered security but they took no action 
against the unregistered security that was supposedly the 
problem.
    They did not shut it down because it was some bad offering 
and dangerous to the public. They created chaos on purpose. 
They told everyone to come in and talk to us, and we will work 
with you and then they used that information to target them for 
enforcement actions.
    They did not produce an escape. I said it was like hotel 
California; you can check in but you can never leave.
    So I want to thank Chairman Atkins for providing a great 
direction, but a couple of questions. Mr. Cohen, in the 
Coinbase case the Biden SEC issued a Wells notice advancing 
novel legal theories about digital assets without identifying a 
clear statutory authority or rules adopted through notice and 
comment.
    How could Congress reform the Wells process to require 
disclosure of specific legal theories or evidence so that Wells 
notices cannot be weaponized.
    Mr. Cohen. I think that is probably more appropriately 
directed to Mr. Chan who has more----
    Mr. Davidson. Mr. Chan, my apologies.
    Mr. Chan. As someone who has gone on both ends on a Wells 
process, I do think it would be very helpful consistent with 
what Chairman Atkins has done to reform the Wells process and 
make sure that if I am getting sued, I should know what I am 
getting sued for and I should know what the evidence is against 
me because the whole point of Wells process is so that the 
commission can hear in a fair process what--the potential 
defendant's voices.
    So I do think that having clarity as to the evidence to 
legal theory, but also what exactly is going on. I do think 
transparency would be very much needed.
    Mr. Davidson. Yes and we hope the commission brings that, 
but we need to pass laws to provide clarity, and we are trying 
to do that in digital assets. There are things just like the 
Wells notice that the loophole there was weaponized by the 
previous SEC.
    In recent years the SEC's advance other legal theories, 
they were rebuked in court, even for arbitrary and capricious 
actions. So including efforts to treat decentralized finance 
protocols as securities., they held software developers and 
programmers liable for how their code was used.
    This would be like holding Bill Gates accountable for 
somebody tracking elicit finance in Excel. I mean Excel is 
useable for all kinds of things, whatever you want to track 
with it. This is just a different version of software. What 
guardrails can Congress put in place to ensure enforcement 
actions cannot be weaponized in the future.
    Mr. Chan. Well, first it of all, the oversight by this very 
subcommittee is actually important. I do think in terms of 
guardrails it goes back to hardwiring fairness and clarity in 
the enforcement process.
    One of the things Congressman highlighted is the problem of 
the SEC making up standards of enforcement, even with new 
technology.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Davidson. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. 
Stutzman for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Stutzman. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    The SEC was created to protect investors to maintain fair 
orderly and efficient markets and facilitate capital formation, 
not to serve as a vehicle for advancing political or social 
priorities. However, under President Joe Biden and Chairman 
Gary Gensler the SEC strayed beyond its statutory mandate and 
pushed forward a large and complex regulatory agenda.
    The result of this was hire compliance costs, reduced 
market competition and fewer opportunities for businesses to 
raise capital. Much like our banking industry, our capital 
markets are among the most heavily regulated sectors in the 
world. Therefore, it is important that regulators carefully 
calibrate their actions to address market deficiencies without 
causing undue harm.
    Mr. Iacovella, I would like to ask you how important is it 
for the SEC to evaluate the total economic impact of its 
rulemakings and what happens when regulators move too fast 
without fully understanding the consequences?
    Mr. Iacovella. It is extremely important to fully evaluate 
and ask the public for information so that you can quantify the 
cost, the real cost to everybody of different sizes. You cannot 
aggregate those costs and then extrapolate them on to the 
industry. People need to understand at what levels they are 
going to be impacted.
    The unfortunate part is that when those are not done 
properly, you are left with one scenario which is to either 
comply with a rule that is faulty and that you know could 
potentially put you out of business or put a strain on 
competition or to sue and that is not good for the industry, it 
is not good for our economy.
    Mr. Stutzman. Thank you. One of the things that we saw 
during the Gensler SEC was the departure from the traditional 
60-day public comment period on a proposed rule. So this 
shorter timeline makes it harder for our--it might be feasible 
for large firms with plenty of lawyers on a retainer, but I am 
sure that for smaller firms it is much more difficult. Mr. 
Cohen, how do shorter public comment periods negatively affect 
smaller firms and independent researchers?
    Mr. Cohen. Well, exactly for the reason that you stated, 
digesting several hundred pages of release and coming up with 
coherent views on them is just not something one does overnight 
and you have to put aside a lot of other pressing business to 
do it.
    Mr. Stutzman. So broadly speaking, would you see a 
difference between the Biden SEC's activity and the Trump-era 
SEC?
    Mr. Cohen. Yes and one of the market aspects of it is 
comment.
    Mr. Stutzman. Comment?
    Mr. Cohen. Yes.
    Mr. Stutzman. Yes. Anything else?
    Mr. Cohen. Well, regulation by enforcement, as has been 
mentioned. Yes. Mr. Iacovella, how about you?
    Mr. Iacovella. Oh, I would agree. I think, cover that.
    Mr. Stutzman. So it is much easier--I mean, it is better 
for the industry, it is better to move business along, giving 
people an opportunity to raise the capital that they need.
    This committee's currently considering legislation that 
would guarantee a 60-day comment period with certain 
exemptions. Would this sort of policy help improve the quality 
of stakeholder feedback? Any of you could answer that.
    Mr. Iacovella. Yes, absolutely. I think the more time that 
people have to be able to absorb, get their teams together, ask 
them how this kind of a policy would work, but let those 
business people and operational people actually understand what 
is being proposed and tell management and the legal and 
compliance folks what it is going to do to the business, that 
is how you get informed comment.
    Mr. Stutzman. Thank you. Thank you, I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Montana, Mr. 
Downing for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Downing. Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you to the 
panel for being here.
    As an entrepreneur, and a former regulator, I cut my teeth 
in tech venture alternatives, a lot of Reg D exemptions. Coming 
out of the space it is really exciting to me to once again have 
an SEC that cares about its core mission of facilitating 
capital formation, rather than pursuing a political agenda.
    I am glad that this hearing is focused on ways to reform 
the SEC to ensure that the Gensler-era antics can no longer 
plague our capital markets.
    I am going to start with Mr. Iacovella. Thank you for being 
here. Under former Chair Gensler, the SEC finalized 34 
substantive rules. This exceeded the average of the three most 
recent predecessors by 36 percent matching only the financial 
crisis-era pace of former Chair Mary Shapiro. Can you discuss 
the harm caused to U.S. capital markets by rushing through so 
many rules?
    Mr. Iacovella. Yes, I think it goes hand and glove with 
what we were just talking about, Congressman, that when you do 
not have the time and opportunity and when you have one complex 
rule, it takes a long time, and it takes a lot of resources and 
manpower. When you have a number of them coming at you at one 
time and in the case of market structure, there were four of 
them and we did not understand exactly how they were going to 
work intertwining together to change the entire market 
structure.
    That was very problematic because it started to make people 
very nervous about what the changes were going to look like. 
Instead of actually putting comments together, people were 
contemplating whether they should just sue.
    Mr. Downing. All right, thank you. Thank you for that 
answer. I am going to move to Mr. Cohen.
    The SEC currently has 43 offices, yet only seven are 
established by statute. I currently have legislation noticed 
for this hearing H.R. 3318: 3318, the SEC Modernization Act, 
which reorganizes the SEC bureaucracy into just 12 offices. So 
my question is: How can the SEC's current organizational 
structure be improved so that it operates more efficiently?
    Mr. Cohen. Well, in addition to the ideas contained in the 
legislation, in my own appendix creating a position of vice 
chair, as well as I think folding the Public Company Accounting 
Oversight Board (PCAOB) into the SEC, which is I know the 
subject of another piece of legislation.
    Mr. Downing. Thank you. So under the SEC's previous 
leadership, market participants heavily criticized how the 
SEC's economic analyses were performed in its rulemakings, 
particularly when it came to climate disclosures and market 
structure reforms. As a former regulator, I had to deal with 
that whole issue, but my question is how should the SEC 
properly conduct its analysis for its rulemakings impact on 
capital formation?
    Mr. Cohen. Well, we talk a lot about tone at the top and 
tone at the top is incredibly important. Chairman Atkins used 
to point out quite often when he was a commissioner that the 
SEC's estimate of the cost of Sarbanes-Oxley (SOX) 404(b) the 
order attestation was in the order of $90,000 and probably 
missed several different zeros. So I think rigor in economic 
analysis is extremely important.
    Mr. Downing. Thank you. I want to turn now to the SEC's 
notice and comment period. Historically, the SEC is allowed at 
least 60 days for notice and comment from the public on 
rulemaking. Under Chairman Gensler, public comment periods were 
frequently shortened, concerningly enough for it to be raised 
in a 2022 Inspector General report.
    So first, why is it important for the public to have an 
adequate time to comment on a proposed rule.
    Mr. Cohen. Well, again, I think it is the complexity of the 
financial market simply makes it very difficult to just react 
from the hip. I can tell you from my own experience at doing 
emergency rulemaking in 2008 that input was really valuable. Do 
you think that 60 days is adequate or is more time needed?
    Mr. Cohen. That would be interesting to see what other 
people with industry consensus is on this. Sixty days at least 
establishes a reasonable starting point.
    Mr. Downing. There have been times when the public comments 
led to a substantial change in the SEC's final rulemaking.
    Mr. Cohen. Absolutely. I think in the comments on the SEC's 
de-SPAC rulemaking in particular for proposed rule 140a really 
led to the SEC to pull that one back, right?
    Mr. Downing. Well, I appreciate your responses there and I 
appreciate the panel being here. On that, Madam Chair, I yield 
back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back.
    The chair recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. 
Steil, chair of Digital Asset FT and AI for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Steil. Thank you, Chair Wagner. I appreciate all of you 
being here today. We have got a big opportunity, and I think we 
have made real progress in turning the SEC around to its actual 
task of being there for investors rather than driving forward 
political agendas.
    I want to cover two topics today that I think are really 
important. One is the politicization of the Gensler-era SEC, 
and have we made the reforms needed to bring us back and away 
from that in particular the Staff Bulletin 14L. I do not want 
to cover materiality and what we are doing in that regard.
    I will start with you if I can, Mr. Cohen. Staff Legal 
Bulletin 14L really gave staff at the SEC massive authority no 
make a decision is to what had a societal policy--based on what 
was having a broad societal impact, that is the language.
    What we saw is after the staff bulletin comes out we see a 
dramatic increase in shareholder proposals going before the 
SEC, we see this whole drive of the liberal left trying to 
drive through policy agendas, via publicly traded companies in 
the United States so they cannot move through Congress because 
no sane elected individual would support a lot of the stuff 
that they were trying to force publicly traded companies to do.
    We finally get sanity back at the SEC. Have we done enough? 
Where are we at? Can you give us a status update.
    Mr. Cohen. Well, certainly having rescinded Staff Legal 
Bulletin 14L really brought back the practices in this area to 
what it had traditionally been, which is it should have to have 
a connection to something company specific in the proposal.
    Mr. Steil. But the staff that was reviewing and many of 
them are still there, does that cause concern or is the change 
in the removal of the legal memo sufficient?
    Mr. Cohen. I----
    Mr. Steil. Are people still operating in a politicized way?
    Mr. Cohen. I have to be careful in answering that because 
my wife who is sitting behind me was for 10 years a staff 
member at the Division of Trading and Markets, but I can say 
that I just have enormous respect for the profession.
    Mr. Steil. I am not saying that there are not many great 
men and women at the SEC and I would not want to disparage 
everyone there. I think it is pretty clear when you were seeing 
some of saw the rules coming out of the SEC under the Gensler 
chairmanship that it was pretty politicized. You had staff 
members who were making decisions as to whether or not 
something had a broad societal impact.
    I do not know if Mr. Chan or Mr. Iacovella would like to 
comment on that, maybe your wife or partner is not sitting 
behind you, and you can speak broadly on this. I say that 
teasingly. Do you have concerns with some of the individuals at 
the SEC who were clearly pushing a politicized agenda 
previously?
    Mr. Chan. I think my concern in the past years is the shift 
of cultural fairness. I do think that at the core we are 
dealing with materiality. We are dealing with a variety of 
issues. I think the north star should be creating incentives to 
get the staff back to focusing on what is fair and that 
includes trying to figure out what is material and 
understanding an investing public, also that includes making 
sure----
    Mr. Steil. But does that cultural challenge that was 
created, I think it is highlighted by Staff Legal Bulletin 14L. 
Is that culture where people would have been--you if you were 
an individual and you came out of law school and thought boy, I 
like securities law, but man, I want to drive forward a 
wackadoodle agenda, boy the SEC might be a great spot to go 
because under Legal Bulletin 14L you could pretty much willy 
nilly make a determination as what had a broad societal impact. 
Now good we removed 14L, positive. Maybe those individuals that 
came in--again, not everybody at the SEC is of this mind-set, 
but it is pretty clear that there were some people there who 
were trying to drive forward a liberal agenda under Staff 
Bulletin 14L.
    Mr. Chan. Yes, and I think that goes back to the culture. 
If you ask and take a poll of the frontline staff in the 
division and enforcement people, the great people I work with, 
they want to fight fraud and they want to fight securities 
fraud and they want to focus on protecting investors.
    So I think anything that can return the staff to doing what 
they actually want to do, which is to fight fraud, would be 
great.
    Mr. Steil. Mr. Iacovella, did you want to comment on that 
as well.
    Mr. Iacovella. I would just say that the tone is set at the 
top and Chair Atkins was very clear about what he was going to 
use staff resources for and what he was not going to. I think 
you see a material change at the agency.
    Mr. Steil. That is great to hear, because I think Chair 
Atkins has done a spectacular job. I think that there is a 
massive shift of tone at the top. I think you see it in removal 
of Staff Bulletin 14L.
    You also see it in Chair Atkins and the now SEC board 
actually diving into what is actually material to the company, 
not creating and allowing staff to drive forward a political 
agenda to determine what is material. Let alone what some of my 
colleagues on the left side of the aisle want to do where they 
want write in statute that something is by definition material 
even if it has nothing to do with the company.
    I appreciate you all being here. We have made some real 
progress at the SEC. We have got more work to do. Madam Chair, 
I yield back.
    Chairwoman Wagner. The gentleman yields back.
    The chair recognizes the gentleman from New York, Mr. 
Garbarino, who is the vice chair of the subcommittee on Capital 
Markets. 5 minutes.
    Mr. Garbarino. Thank you, chairman. Thank you very much for 
having the hearing today and thank you to the witnesses for 
being here.
    U.S. institutional investors, including pensions funds, 
asset managers and insurance companies invest and trade across 
global markets, often they do work with foreign broker dealers 
to access the deepest liquidity outside of the United States. 
SEC's cross border broker framework, including rule 15a-6 was 
written decades ago and generally requires foreign brokers to 
operate through a registered U.S. intermediary. While intended 
to protect investors, market participants say these 
requirements can create unnecessary costs and friction at 
sophisticated institutions and may put U.S. investors at a 
competitive disadvantage.
    By contrast, Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) 
uses equivocal frameworks that allows certain well-regulated 
foreign firms to serve U.S. participants without duplicating 
full U.S. registration. Markets are now far more interconnected 
and cross border trading is more common. There is a growing 
discussion about whether a similar modernization could be 
considered on the security side.
    Mr. Chan, are there areas where the SEC could focus to 
allow U.S. institutional investors more efficient access to 
broader global liquidity in non U.S. markets through well-
regulated foreign broker dealers such as equivalency regimes 
with major similarly regulated jurisdictions.
    Mr. Chan. Absolutely, I call this the four corners of 
global interoperability. The SEC can do a better job on 
ensuring that investment products can be acessible seamlessly 
and internationally; professional licensing can easily be 
clarified and simplified--the reporting regime and also the 
examination. There can be a lot of work done with other 
regulators, globally, that can make international trading and 
investment securities much easier. As someone who worked with 
my partners on other jurisdictions, the key is the SEC 
understanding to what else is going on in the rest of the 
world.
    Mr. Garbarino. You just answered any follow up question, so 
I appreciate that very much.
    I am going to switch some gears here. Chairman Atkins has 
recognized that the SEC's rule book has become bloated and is 
an obstacle to growing our markets, to address that problem 
created over the past 5 years the chairman has noted that the 
SEC rulemaking agenda includes a number of proposals to reduce 
compliance, burdens and facilitate capital formation.
    Recent years the SEC adopted deeply problematic fund 
related rulemakings, example under former Chair Gensler is in 
2023, funding. The 2023 fundings rules amendments which the SEC 
estimated would affect 76 percent of funds and introduced new 
compliance costs and operational complexity for funds. Those 
added burdens would ultimately be passed on to American savers.
    Mr. Cohen consistent with the SEC's goal of reducing 
unnecessary burden how should the commission or staff address 
those rulemaking excesses.
    Mr. Cohen. Well, I think the proposal that Chairman Atkins 
has made to revisit for example regulation S-K and much that is 
in it is very welcome. One thing you will note is that he 
articulated the concern about too much disclosure overwhelming 
people. I think that is a long-standing concern that many SEC 
chairman have articulated.
    Mr. Garbarino. I appreciate that. I know I have two more 
questions, but I think I am going to yield back so Mr. Ogles 
can get some time.
    Chairwoman Wagner. I appreciate that. The gentleman yields 
back. Votes have been called about 6 or 7 minutes ago. Mr. 
Ogles, I appreciate, please submit whatever you have in writing 
for the panel.
    I would like to thank all our witnesses for your tremendous 
testimony today.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the 
chair. The questions will be forwarded to the witnesses for 
their prompt response. Witnesses please respond no later than 
March 11, 2026.

    [The information referred to can be found in the appendix.]

    This hearing is adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 3:36 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                APPENDIX

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