[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
OVERSIGHT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING
AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT AND THE FEDERAL
HOUSING ADMINISTRATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
JANUARY 21, 2026
__________
Serial No. 119-53
Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63-860 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Chairman
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan, Vice MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking
Chairman Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas, Vice
PETE SESSIONS, Texas Ranking Member
ANN WAGNER, Missouri NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
ANDY BARR, Kentucky BRAD SHERMAN, California
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
TOM EMMER, Minnesota DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio AL GREEN, Texas
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South BILL FOSTER, Illinois
Carolina JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio
MARLIN STUTZMAN, Indiana JUAN VARGAS, California
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
YOUNG KIM, California SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
BYRON DONALDS, Florida AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin RITCHIE TORRES, New York
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas CLEO FIELDS, Louisiana
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee JANELLE BYNUM, Oregon
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa SAM LICCARDO, California
LISA McCLAIN, Michigan
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TROY DOWNING, Montana
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
TIM MOORE, North Carolina
Ben Johnson, Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
Wednesday, January 21, 2026
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. French Hill, Chairman of the Committee on Financial
Services, a U.S. Representative from Arkansas.................. 1
Hon. Maxine Waters, Ranking Member of the Committee on Financial
Services, a U.S. Representative from California................ 3
STATEMENTS
Hon. Mike Flood, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Housing and
Insurance, a U.S. Representative from Nebraska................. 4
Hon. Emanuel Cleaver, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on
Housing and Insurance, a U.S. Representative from Missouri..... 5
WITNESSES
Hon. Scott Turner, Secretary, Department of Housing and Urban
Development.................................................... 5
Prepared Statement........................................... 8
APPENDIX
MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Hon. Nydia M. Velazquez:
``Leaked HUD Mixed Status Rule Points to Similar Effort to
Keep Families Together as 2019''........................... 98
RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Written responses to questions for the record from Hon. Scott
Turner
Mr. Representative French Hill............................... 102
Mr. Representative Maxine Waters............................. 104
Mr. Representative Mike Flood................................ 110
Mr. Representative Bill Huizenga............................. 112
Mr. Representative Ann Wagner................................ 113
Mr. Representative Nikema Williams........................... 114
Mr. Representative Young Kim................................. 116
Mr. Representative Andrew R. Garbarino....................... 117
Mr. Representative Scott Fitzgerald.......................... 119
Mr. Representative Zachary Nunn.............................. 121
Mr. Representative Nydia M. Velazquez........................ 122
Mr. Representative Al Green.................................. 126
Mr. Representative Rashida Tlaib............................. 128
Mr. Representative Brittany Pettersen........................ 135
LEGISLATION
H.R. 1640, the HEIRS Act of 2025................................. 137
H.R. 3694, the VALID Act of 2025................................. 145
H.R. 4568, the Supporting Upgraded Property Projects and Lending
for Yards (SUPPLY) Act......................................... 148
H.R. 5520, the Portal for Appraisal Licensing Act of 2025........ 154
H.R. 5591, the RESIDE Act........................................ 161
H.R. 5618, the Housing PLUS Act of 2025.......................... 168
H.R. 6363, the Build Now Act of 2025............................. 171
H.R. 6825, to require Federal monitors and receivers of public
housing agencies to testify before the Committee on Financial
Services of the House of Representatives and the Committee on
Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs of the Senate.............. 180
H.R. 7030, the Securing Facilities for Mental Health Services Act 182
H.R. 7056, the Community Bank Regulatory Tailoring Act........... 184
H.R. ----, the Improving Public Housing Agency Accountability.... 197
OVERSIGHT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT AND THE
FEDERAL HOUSING ADMINISTRATION
----------
Wednesday, January 21, 2026
U.S. House of Representatives,
Committee on Financial Services,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. J. French Hill
[chairman of the committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Hill, Lucas, Sessions, Huizenga,
Wagner, Barr, Williams of Texas, Emmer, Loudermilk, Davidson,
Rose, Steil, Timmons, Stutzman, Meuser, Kim, Donalds,
Garbarino, Fitzgerald, Flood, Lawler, De La Cruz, Ogles, Nunn,
McClain, Salazar, Downing, Haridopolos, Moore, Waters,
Velazquez, Sherman, Lynch, Green, Cleaver, Himes, Foster,
Beatty, Gonzalez, Casten, Pressley, Tlaib, Torres, Garcia,
Williams of Georgia, Pettersen, Fields, Bynum, and Liccardo.
Chairman Hill. The Committee on Financial Services will
come to order.
Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
recess of the committee at any time.
Today's hearing is entitled ``Oversight of the Department
of Housing and Urban Development and the Federal Housing
Administration.''
Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days
within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for
inclusion in our record.
I now recognize myself for 4 minutes for an opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRENCH HILL, CHAIRMAN OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM
ARKANSAS
Good morning. I would like to thank our Secretary, Scott
Turner, for being with us and applaud his work to reform the
structure of Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD),
refocus the Department on its core missions, and roll back
misguided Biden-era rules and regulations.
Today, our members will review HUD's work with Secretary
Turner at the helm and discuss the Department's future
direction under his leadership.
We find ourselves at a pivotal moment in our Nation's
housing landscape, one that necessitates thoughtful reform and
clear-eyed focus on the needs of the American people.
Under the Biden Administration, HUD drifted from its core
mission, becoming weighed down by misguided regulations that
stifled innovation and limited access to affordable housing.
Several of these Biden-era rules have been proven
ineffective and counterproductive, which is why HUD is
refocusing its policies and programs to deliver safe and
accessible housing for the American people.
We are witnessing rising costs, shifting demographics, and
changing economic realities that demand a fresh approach.
Every event I attend at home in Arkansas, citizens tell me
how shocking the impact of the Biden inflation is on their
household budgets.
In the Biden era home construction prices soared, home
financing jumped in the Federal Reserve's (Fed's) fight against
their own policy errors, joined by the Biden Administration's
fiscal extravagance.
Access to affordable homes and apartments continues to
challenge American families, driven by these high costs,
exacerbated by a persistent shortage of housing supply relative
to growing demand.
Americans' challenges are further compounded by the
deficiencies in HUD's oversight framework and regulatory red
tape that have contributed to limited housing inventory and
reduced access to affordable housing in many areas across our
country.
These shortcomings underscore the need for bipartisan
legislative action to reduce regulatory barriers and expand
housing supply.
This committee has been laser focused on addressing the
high cost of living and housing as a key component. Last month,
our committee overwhelmingly passed the bipartisan Housing for
the 21st Century Act, which works to streamline housing
development and affordability by updating outdated programs,
removing regulatory roadblocks, and increasing local
flexibility.
I look forward to hearing more today, Mr. Secretary, about
your views on this important legislation.
While streamlining development is critical, these reforms
must be paired with improved accountability to ensure that they
deliver results.
Strengthening accountability benefits homeowners and
renters while also safeguarding taxpayers by ensuring their
hard-earned dollars are used efficiently and effectively.
Let us be frank. Biden's HUD failed in its oversight of our
local public housing authorities, between missing funds, unsafe
public housing, and outrageous, appalling landlords in the
Section 8 voucher program.
With your leadership, Mr. Secretary, I hope we can tackle
this mess together. It is imperative that Congress work with
HUD to make the necessary changes to the Department's programs,
ensuring they are responsive and effective for all Americans.
This hearing is an opportunity to reaffirm that commitment
and our joint commitment on both sides of the aisle to the
principles of accountability, innovation, and responsiveness in
government.
I look very much forward to the hearing, the questions of
our members, and Secretary Turner's engagement with us on how
we can pave a way for a stronger, more effective Housing and
Urban Development.
I yield back the balance of my time.
I now recognize the distinguished ranking member of our
full committee, Ms. Waters of California, for 4 minutes for an
opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MAXINE WATERS, RANKING MEMBER OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM
CALIFORNIA
Ms. Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
After countless calls for hearings, warnings, and questions
from committee Democrats, I am glad this day has finally come.
Secretary Turner, we had a good meeting in my office, and
we spoke about a lot of things. You told us you were taking
inventory at HUD so it could better achieve its goals.
Well, I told you I was going to work with my staff and take
a look at this inventory that you have taken as HUD Secretary,
and I found that it was completely inadequate. Homelessness is
surging. High housing prices are blocking millions out of home
ownership. Instead of meeting the national housing crises with
urgency or competence, it seems that you have made this crisis
even worse, and even Trump knows it.
Now, from day one you have worked from the inside to weaken
HUD and America's housing supply, and I do not know and
hopefully through the questioning we will find out whether or
not it was you or Elon Musk or what was going on that you fired
so many employees.
Immediately after taking office, you halted fair housing
and civil rights investigations, making discrimination in
housing as acceptable as it was in the 1940s.
Next, now, I am really, really surprised, you shuttered
regional and field offices, stripping families of the support
they need to stay or get housed. It looks as if--and I came
over, if you can recall, I came over in a little protest action
and tried to get in touch with you, but I did not realize it
was as bad as it is.
You terminated more than 780 HUD employees, including
public servants whose expertise is essential to administering
housing programs, enforcing civil rights, and preventing
homelessness. As a matter of fact, it has been described to me
that HUD is only a shadow of what it should be or what it was.
Let me be clear, forcing hundreds of public servants out
the door does not make HUD more efficient. It makes the agency
weaker and does nothing to make housing affordable.
Well, as I have talked with my staff and the work that we
have done and they have done, you went on to roll back the
Equal Access Rule, tearing down longstanding protections
against discrimination for women, children, and Lesbian, Gay,
Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, and/or Questioning (LGBTQ+)
individuals.
Last week, I am told, you proposed a rule that would make
it more difficult for victims and housing providers to enforce
the rights under laws. It also says that you attempted to slash
critical homelessness funding and undermine proven programs
like Housing First.
Experts warn that this will punish more than 170,000
vulnerable Americans back into the streets. Thankfully, the
courts, I understand, forced you to retract that proposal.
Secretary Turner, for the past year we have watched you
push ideology-driven housing policies like Trump dismisses the
affordable housing crisis he created as a, quote, ``hoax, scam,
and con job,'' unquote.
The only con job I can see is that this President and his
cronies are trying to convince Americans that he cares about
affordability more than he cares about winning in November.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the bipartisan work this
committee has done on housing, particularly passing the Housing
for the 21st Century Act, but we need more strong pro-housing
leadership at HUD to truly end this crisis.
Secretary Turner, I do not know if you understood what this
job was all about, but I am wondering, especially----
Chairman Hill. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Waters [continuing]. as you propose to cut HUD's budget
by half.
So----
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman yields back.
Ms. Waters. Well, the gentlewoman has to yield back, but we
have more questions.
Thank you very much.
Chairman Hill. We will recognize you for those questions.
Ms. Waters. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. We now recognize the chair of the
Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance, Mr. Flood of Nebraska, 1
minute for an opening statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE FLOOD, CHAIRMAN OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON
HOUSING AND INSURANCE, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM NEBRASKA
Mr. Flood. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is a pleasure to host the Secretary of Housing and Urban
Development, Scott Turner, at his first hearing with the House
Financial Services Committee.
Housing costs have been rising for the last several years
and it is more important than ever before that we focus our
committee's work on solutions that will bring housing costs
down and increase housing supply.
The bipartisan Housing for the 21st Century Act is the
result of much of that work. The Housing for the 21st Century
Act slashes red tape, cuts costs, and removes government
barriers to building more housing in this country.
While we have been working hard on this committee, I know
that Secretary Turner has been hard at work to address some of
these problems from within the Department as well.
I look forward to your testimony, Secretary Turner, your
views on the legislation that we have been working on, and I
hope we can use today's hearing as an opportunity to
collaborate on the best path forward to address rising housing
costs.
With that, I yield back.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize the ranking member of the Subcommittee on
Housing and Insurance, Mr. Cleaver, for 1 minute for an opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. EMANUEL CLEAVER, RANKING MEMBER OF THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING AND INSURANCE, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE
FROM MISSOURI
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Secretary, thank you for meeting with me.
Executive agencies face political pressure to take action
that may not be sound public policy. HUD's decisions carry
significant consequences for millions of Americans and public
and private partners.
I, as mayor of Kansas City, had an opportunity to do a lot
of work with HUD and I understand this: Recent shifts in HUD
policy and budget raise questions about the long-term impact on
vulnerable communities.
Congressman Lawler and I have a bill to require HUD to
testify annually regardless of the administration, and I hope
that you will support that. My first and foremost goal is
oversight and a constructive path forward.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
Today, again, we welcome the testimony of Hon. Scott
Turner, the Secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban
Development.
Secretary Turner, we thank you for taking time with us
today. You will be recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral
presentation of your written testimony. Without objection, your
written statement will be made part of our record.
Secretary Turner, you are now recognized for your oral
statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. SCOTT TURNER, SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF
HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
Secretary Turner. Well, thank you, Chairman Hill, Ranking
Member Waters, and distinguished members of this committee.
Happy to be here with you this morning. Thank you for this
chance to testify today about what HUD has been doing the past
year to spur prosperity in our communities, safety in our
streets, and home ownership across America.
Under President Trump's leadership we are fulfilling our
mission of fostering strong communities by supporting access to
quality affordable housing, expanding the housing supply, and
unlocking home ownership and opportunities for the American
people. We are doing that by empowering Americans and cutting
red tape instead of intruding government power into it every
corner of Americans' lives.
As part of our campaign against overregulation, we
eliminated the Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing rule,
which really turned HUD into a national zoning board and robbed
local communities of their zoning powers. The result was rising
home prices and saddling communities with more red tape. To be
quite honest, Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH)
should not build one home in America.
HUD does not just promote housing affordability, we also
help Americans recover after natural disasters. We have given
disaster survivors more flexibility in how they use recovery
funds and we have also allocated more than $12 billion to
assist the American people. This aid provides survivors with a
crucial helping hand to rise from the ruins of storms and
floods.
Disaster relief is just one part of our mission. HUD
defended women in shelters by ending the enforcement of a
Biden-era policy that forced them to share spaces with men who
claimed to identify as women.
Women in these shelters oftentimes have suffered from
severe trauma, like sexual assault or domestic violence or
both. It is outrageous, committee, that such women were put in
danger in the name of far-left gender ideology, and restoring
safety to these shelters marked a return to sanity.
Caring for the vulnerable people in this country also means
helping the homeless. We are restoring balance to the Continuum
of Care program and prioritizing treatment and recovery as well
as other supportive services to address the root problems of
homelessness and keep our streets safe.
This is a marked difference from the Biden-era policy of
throwing taxpayer dollars at the issue and calling it a day
without any real results.
My uncle, for example, is a good example of how we have
other options besides forcing homeless Americans into permanent
dependence on government. He was a homeless, broken veteran
with a debilitating disease, but my family and I took him in,
took care of him, and made sure that he got wraparound services
that he needed.
He would not have been better helped by being thrown into
permanent public housing with no long-term treatment. He was
able to live the rest of his life and die in dignity.
Vulnerable Americans benefit when we get them real
treatment, and we are making sure our efforts are helping the
American people. We are reducing barriers facing homeless
Americans that keep them from accessing evidence-based
treatment and achieving successful long-term recovery from drug
addiction to ultimately becoming productive citizens.
We eliminated nonpermanent residents' eligibility for the
Federal Housing Administration (FHA)-ensured mortgages, and we
are auditing public housing authorities to ensure taxpayer
dollars do not support illegal aliens. American dollars should
benefit American citizens and American citizens only.
By focusing on our core mission, HUD provided a pathway for
home ownership and supported housing affordability for more
than 1 million Americans through FHA and Ginnie Mae.
We also take stewardship very seriously, so we are cracking
down on waste and fraud and abuse. Our Office of the Chief
Financial Officer uncovered more than $5 billion in potential
payment errors out of over $50 billion in total rental
assistance for the Fiscal Year 2024, and that includes money
that went to nearly 30,000 dead people.
That is ludicrous. It is ridiculous to even think or talk
in such a way. It is a violation of our sacred trust to
American taxpayers, and it has to end, and it will.
To help prevent fraud, waste, and abuse, we are taking
steps to improve recipient and subrecipient reporting, enhance
HUD monitoring capabilities, and streamline grants management
and we are rooting out corruption at public housing authorities
and private multifamily owners, as seen by our action to
address fraud in the Atlantic City Housing Authority and New
York City Housing Authority.
Finally, committee, as part of making HUD run more
efficiently, we have established a new HUD Efficiency Task
Force to promote efficiency gains, benefiting the American
people.
We have made tremendous strides over the past year and
under President Trump we will continue promoting housing
affordability and cultivating the independence, freedom, and
enterprise that pave the way to the American Dream of home
ownership.
Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, thank you so much. Thank you,
committee members. I look forward to engaging with you.
[The prepared statement of Secretary Turner follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Hill. Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.
We will now turn to member questions. I recognize myself
for 5 minutes for questioning.
I want to thank you for your work serving as our Secretary.
I want to particularly say thank you for your passion for
bringing prosperity across the country, for lifting people up
out of poverty and to an opportunity for success. I think back
of your good work in the first Trump Administration leading the
way to expand opportunity zones across the country.
So thank you for all your commitment to ensuring that our
Federal housing programs help people in need rather than hinder
them.
It has been nearly a generation since Congress enacted
comprehensive reform of HUD. The last major effort was the
Quality Housing and Work Responsibility Act of 1999, which
passed when the average home price was $160,000. Inflation
adjusted, that is about $315,000 and HUD's budget in that year
was $12 billion.
Today the average home price is closer to $400,000 and
under the Biden Administration, HUD's requested budget reached
$72 billion. Yet much of the Department still operates under
statutory and regulatory frameworks designed for a housing
market that simply does not exist any longer.
That is why this committee has advanced legislation such as
the Housing for the 21st Century Act, with the goal of
modernizing outdated programs, removing unnecessary regulatory
barriers, and encouraging local development so that housing can
be built faster, more affordably, and with greater
accountability.
Mr. Secretary, from your perspective, why is it so
difficult for Congress to enact legislation that modernizes the
HUD programs and HUD authorities?
Secretary Turner. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
That is a question that I ask myself. I think a lot of
times it is the mindset and doing things the same way because
we have always done it but I think with this issue that we have
in our country with housing affordability, accountability,
transparency that it is Congress that, working in a bipartisan
manner as it seems you all have, to bring up reforms, to make
codes more modern, to help housing affordability.
I know it has been difficult through the years, but I would
encourage the members of this committee and the entire Congress
to look at the issue in our country.
Housing to me is not political. Housing impacts all 350
million people in our country and so whatever ways we can come
up with to bring down the cost of housing, to take down
regulatory barriers, as you said in the bill that you all have
been working on. I think is a great idea and I encourage the
bipartisanship, I encourage working across the aisle member-to-
member to accomplish and attack these problems.
Chairman Hill. Well, I appreciate that. I do thank Chairman
Flood and Ranking Member Cleaver and the ranking member of the
full committee working collaboratively to break down some of
these barriers, find compromise, find opportunities to even
authorize programs that have never been authorized or reformed
in decades.
So that is the work this committee has been committed to,
to tackle that, because we know it has direct results of more
affordable building policies, lowering construction costs, and
increasing affordability through the steps we have taken.
I want to turn to my home State of Arkansas for a moment
and the deeply troubling situation that we have had for the
past several years at the Little Rock Housing Authority.
What has occurred there is truly baffling to me and,
frankly, inconceivable. Residents are now at risk of
displacement through no fault of their own.
They are paying the price for repeated failures by the
housing authority itself, including not filling out required
audits. They are engaging in requisite decisionmaking that puts
both residents and taxpayers at risk.
I have written multiple letters expressing my dismay,
including the request of the HUD Office of Inspector General to
investigate the matter. I have to tell you, Mr. Secretary, I
have been disappointed with the city's oversight of the public
housing agency, their board of directors, the local HUD office
in Little Rock, the regional office in Dallas-Fort Worth.
If it is happening in Little Rock, I know it is happening
across the country where taxpayers are not being dealt with
fairly. More importantly, our citizens dependent on a Section 8
voucher program to be in a safe, clean housing situation are
finding disasters.
I wondered, could you provide me an update regarding the--
would you be willing to give me an update on the Little Rock
Housing Authority?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, in this brief moment that I
have.
Our team has been in touch with your team. We have sent
multiple communications there to the Little Rock Housing
Authority and we are shining a light on accountability and
transparency there, but also all of our Public Housing
Authorities (PHAs) around the country.
Public housing should be safe housing, which we can talk
about going forward in the committee but, yes, sir, we are on
top of this issue.
Chairman Hill. Good. Well, I know members on both sides of
the aisle are concerned about safe, sound, sanitary, effective
public housing for those citizens that have to use that as a
resource. Many of our members grew up in public housing and we
want to make sure that it is safe and sound. I thank you for
that.
I now recognize the ranking member of the committee, Ms.
Waters, for 5 minutes for your questions.
Ms. Waters. Thank you so very much, Chairman Hill.
You spoke of Mr. Turner's passionate--Secretary Turner's
passionate housing concerns. I want you to know I come from a
family of 13, 12 brothers and sisters. We lived in inadequate
housing. It was worse than inadequate, and I want you to know
nobody's passion could be any deeper than mine about housing.
So, Secretary Turner, the President, desperate and scared
of the November elections, scrambled last night to get out his
executive order banning institutional investors like private
equity from purchasing single-family homes. While the motives
are questionable, I support the concept as I have always and
proudly prioritized affordable home ownership and housing for
Americans.
However, you, Secretary Turner, throughout 2025 sold over
$1.3 billion in distressed mortgages to those same corporate
investors, denying real people a chance to buy those homes. In
fact, 2 days before Trump initially tweeted about the ban, you
announced yet another sale of these distressed assets to
private equity.
Under the Biden-Harris Administration HUD finalized a rule
to ensure that when distressed housing assets are sold to
investors, homebuyers get the first shot at buying them after
the forecloser. It is called First Look, but you have
repeatedly waived this rule, putting private equity before
people, including for the sale HUD announced 2 weeks ago.
They had the chance to give families a better shot at home
ownership, and you choose not to, when President Trump in his
executive order directs you to use First Look policy, following
in the footsteps of Democrats.
Now, Secretary Turner, I hope you can now agree that people
deserve to be prioritized over corporations. In light of the
President's order and HUD's upcoming sale of distressed assets
in February, will you commit to canceling the sale to
institutional investors or at least restore the safeguards
which gave homebuyers the opportunity to purchase any
foreclosed homes that result from it? I do not want a long
answer, just yes or no.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, Ranking Member Waters.
At FHA, when we have these, it is an owner-occupant.
Ms. Waters. Yes or no?
Secretary Turner. I will look into the numbers that you
just gave me with my team, but we will uphold the law at FHA
and make sure we safeguard FHA and prioritize the American
homeowners.
Ms. Waters. Is that yes or no, Mr. Turner?
Secretary Turner. That is my commitment, that we will
safeguard the American homeowners. I will get back to you on
the numbers that you just gave me.
Ms. Waters. Okay. Last year you also cut the First Look
period for similar HUD Real Estate Owned, or REO, assets from
30 to 15 days. Now, would you commit to increasing this
timeframe look back to 30 days to allow homeowners more time to
purchase their homes? Yes or no?
Secretary Turner. Ranking Member, we are committed to
ensuring that FHA is solvent and that we protect FHA for the
American people.
Ms. Waters. Yes or no?
Secretary Turner. That timeline is always under analysis
and review. There are reasons why we cut it down. We do not
want FHA homes just sitting on the market.
Ms. Waters. I only have so many minutes. Yes or no?
Secretary Turner. We have to do the best thing to keep FHA
secure.
Ms. Waters. Secretary Turner, a core HUD function is to
enforce civil rights laws so everyone, no matter their race,
religion, creed, or color, can live in a thriving neighborhood
but you have spent the past year abandoning that responsibility
by cutting the staff of the Office of Fair Housing and Equal
Employment, or FHEO, by 70 percent, withdrawing any
discrimination guidance, and refusing to accept discrimination
claims based on sexual orientation or gender identity.
HUD whistleblowers then shared with you, their leadership
team, that said that Fair Housing is not a priority and
described the full Fair Housing staff as, quote, optics
problem, unquote, and issued gag orders to stop staff from
following the law to help those denied housing.
Now it looks like you are weaponizing fair housing
enforcement as the Trump Administration does its best to cover
up the murder by Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) of
an American citizen. As the Department of Justice (DOJ)
investigates the Minnesota authority general and Governor, you
certainly are deploying what remains of FHEO staff to
investigate the city of Minneapolis.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
Ms. Waters. I rest.
Chairman Hill. Please respond to the ranking member in
writing, Mr. Secretary.
The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, who chairs our Task
Force on Monetary Policy, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Secretary Turner, for being here today.
Secretary Turner, last year this committee overwhelmingly
passed H.R. 6644, or the Housing for the 21st Century Act,
thanks to the leadership of Chairman Hill and Housing Chairman
Flood.
This vote demonstrates a strong bipartisan commitment to
making housing more affordable, a goal I know you share.
One theme of the bill is the need for deregulation to lower
housing costs.
Can you share more about the work the agency is doing to
cut red tape? How can this committee partner with you to build
on the actions that you have taken.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Lucas. I
appreciate your question.
The first thing we did when we came in--and the ranking
member alluded to--we want to take inventory of every program
at HUD. Part of that was seeing what is causing us not to carry
out the mission and what is helping us to carry out the mission
as it pertains to housing affordability.
So deregulation is a top priority. The first thing we did
was take down the Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing rule,
which really made HUD or Washington a national zoning board,
and we restored the zoning capabilities and freedom back to the
localities.
Regulations, both from a Federal level but even more so
from a local level, are crippling and have crippled development
and building construction in our country. So, this is of utmost
priority for us and will continue to be so.
Mr. Lucas. Secretary, the Native American Housing
Assistance and Self-Determination Act was passed 30 years ago
to make it easier for Tribes to access HUD programs. It has
been extremely successful, particularly for Tribes in Oklahoma.
Thank you, Secretary Turner, for your continued support of
the program, which makes a tremendous difference in improving
housing access to Tribal citizens.
While Congress needs to reauthorize the Native American
Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act (NAHASDA), can
you share more of how HUD is working with those who face unique
housing and economic challenges like Native communities?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
As you know, I have traveled extensively, both in the first
Trump Administration leading the opportunity zones and this
administration, to our Tribal nations and have great
relationships with our Tribes across our country. I recently,
last year, was in Alaska to visit our Tribes.
So we want to continue to support NAHASDA and ONAP from our
Office of Native American Programs (ONAP) office and make sure
that they continue to have the sovereignty and flexibility as
it pertains to housing and affordability on our Tribes.
Mr. Lucas. In my remaining time, Mr. Secretary, you
previously led the Inter-Agency Opportunity Zones Initiative.
How is HUD building on that progress and encouraging long-term
investments in low-income communities?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
I am very excited about the Working Family Tax Cuts Bill
which made opportunities zones permanent. I am looking forward
to working with the whole government, both State, local, and
Federal, and private sector partners who are deeply involved in
making sure the opportunity zones achieve the mission which
they do.
The first one, tranche of opportunity zones, over $90
billion of private money was invested in opportunity zones,
creating over 300,000 housing units and lifting 1 million
people out of poverty. I would suspect that the next round of
opportunity zones we will do even better for the American
people, in particular when you are talking about building
affordable housing and job creation.
So I am very excited in the days ahead of the opportunity
zone legislation. So, thank you and your colleagues for making
this a permanent policy in our country.
Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for your work.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Velazquez, who is the
ranking member of the House Small Business Committee, is
recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Velazquez. You can see me.
Good morning. Thank you for being here.
Mr. Turner, a leaked draft of HUD's proposed mixed status
rule is likely to force impacted families to choose between
separating as a family to keep their family or face eviction
and potentially homelessness.
Is its HUD's intention to force families to separate? Yes
or no?
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Ms. Velazquez. Yes or no, please?
Secretary Turner. Thank you, ma'am. I really appreciate it.
I am doing my best to hear you and listen.
Our intention literally is to uphold the law and to take
care of our homeless neighbors around our country.
Ms. Velazquez. So, it is a yes answer.
Can you explain why HUD is forcing families to choose
between separation or eviction and homelessness?
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am. HUD is not causing people to
choose between separation and homelessness. We are doing the
very best we can to serve our homeless neighbors.
Ms. Velazquez. Well, that proposed rule will have that
effect. It will separate families or it will increase
homelessness in this country.
If experts are already saying the proposed rule will have
similar effects to the 2019 proposed rule, which was widely
criticized, why is HUD proposing changes to this rule?
Secretary Turner. Well, ma'am, I am not sure which experts
you are talking about, but at HUD we deal with homelessness
every day.
Ms. Velazquez. Here, experts in low-income housing, yes.
Secretary Turner. I am happy to give that to our staff so
we can review that.
Ms. Velazquez. Mr. Chairman----
Secretary Turner. But the experts, they do not work on
homelessness day in and day out like we do.
Ms. Velazquez. Reclaiming my time.
I would like to introduce this report to the record.
Chairman Hill. Without objection, it will be included in
the record.
[The information referred to can be found in the appendix
on page 98.]
Ms. Velazquez. Sir, Americans, as you stated, are facing an
affordability challenge and we need to free up this unit for
American citizens. That is the argument of the administration.
So mixed status families make up less than 1 percent of
families participating in HUD's multifamily housing programs
and are already paying their fair share. The current rule
already prohibits noncitizens from receiving a rent subsidy.
Do you know how many American families are currently
estimated to be on the Section 8 program waiting list
nationwide?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am, what I do know is that at
HUD, even with record funding, we are only able to serve one
out of four families that are in need.
Ms. Velazquez. Okay. So more than 737,000 families. This
rule is expected to impact 25,000 mixed families, which means
more than 712,000 families will still be waiting for a voucher,
which does not solve the housing affordability challenge
President Trump promised to solve. This will not solve the
problem, and it will explode homelessness in our country.
So my question to you is, if one of the immediate effects
of the proposed rule is to explode homelessness in our country,
why is that, that the President proposed a $27 million cut to
homeless assistance for Fiscal Year 2026? How do you reconcile
one thing with the other?
Secretary Turner. Thank you, Congresswoman.
What I do know is that with record funding homelessness
went up 33 percent, 770,000 people in one single night in our
country were homeless with record funding. So, to me it is
not----
Ms. Velazquez. And you are going to solve the problem by
implementing----
Secretary Turner [continuing]. it is not a money problem;
it is a stewardship problem.
Ms. Velazquez. Reclaiming my time.
You will solve the problem by implementing this mixed
status rule, exploding homelessness, and cutting $27 million to
the homelessness program in this country. Would HUD not want to
support States and localities with the resources to deal with
the homelessness problem your proposal will cost?
Secretary Turner. Well, ma'am, you keep saying that we are
cutting. It is record funding for homelessness.
Ms. Velazquez. It is----
Secretary Turner. So I am not sure what report you are
reading. We are not cutting funding to homelessness. As a
matter of fact, it is the largest allocation of resources for
homelessness.
Ms. Velazquez. It is $27 million less than Fiscal Year
2025. So when does HUD expect to release the proposal of the
mixed status rule?
Secretary Turner. It is still under conversation, ma'am.
You know I cannot speak about that right now.
Ms. Velazquez. Okay. Well, I hope if you get the 95 percent
comments that will negatively reject this mixed proposal----
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
Ms. Velazquez [continuing]. that you will withdraw that
rule because it is still----
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The gentleman Michigan, Mr. Huizenga, who is the vice
chairman of our full committee, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. Huizenga. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Secretary Turner, good to see you again and I appreciate
your attendance here today.
First, I want to say thank you for speaking with me last
week on the phone about our shared priorities and especially
the state of low-income housing in my district.
I also appreciate your staff who took the time for a call
with the mayor of Kalamazoo, David Anderson, and an
organization called Integrated Services of Kalamazoo to discuss
homelessness and the homeless projects and programs that we
have.
Specifically, though, I do also want to highlight a project
in Benton Harbor, Michigan, in my district that is called
Harbor Towers. Dating back to 2011, residents have been
complaining about the conditions that they have experienced
there, including no heat, hot water, and security concerns.
In 2024, I visited the property myself with Mayor Marcus
Muhammad to bring attention to a housing development that has
long been neglected.
Now, it is my understanding--we got the ball rolling then,
but it is my understanding that the funding for this project is
set to close in March of this year. I just want to get your
commitment that you are going to work with me and the fine
folks there to see that project through.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, Congressman. Thank you.
We are more than willing to work with you and your office
to make sure that the people that are living there are living
in the best conditions possible and that we are stewarding well
over taxpayer dollars in carrying out HUD's mission.
Mr. Huizenga. Both of those things can happen.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Huizenga. We can be both the steward and provide proper
housing for those folks. That is--it is an important component
of this. So I appreciate your support.
I know that residents of Harbor Towers will be very, very
glad to hear that much-needed funding has been secured.
Last, I would love to invite you to the Fourth District. It
is one of the most beautiful districts you will ever see. I do
not care what my other colleagues say but I do highly recommend
some time in the spring, maybe the summer. Benton Harbor is
right on the shores of Lake Michigan. I would love to get you
there, love to get you to Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, Cereal
City, USA, where we can take a look at a few of those projects
that are in the district.
So I look forward to working hopefully with your schedule
on that.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Huizenga. There are a lot of folks that get support in
Michigan, but I think it is important that you come to
southwest Michigan to see some of those challenges that we
have.
Something you and I have discussed in the past, I know you
touched on in your testimony, and I believe the chair brought
up in his opening statement, but I wanted to give you an
opportunity to expand on the work HUD is doing to hold local
housing authorities accountable. So could you please expand on
that work?
Secretary Turner. Sir, thank you.
When we came in, a lot--during the Biden Administration a
blind eye had been turned to transparency and accountability in
our public housing authorities. We have 3,800 public housing
authorities around our country, urban and rural. We came in
with the idea and the intention to hold public housing
authorities accountable for those that live inside of public
housing authorities, the living conditions inside of public
housing authorities.
So we have been working with the Department of Homeland
Security and other Federal agency partners to make sure that
those that are living inside of HUD-funded properties are
indeed American citizens, that they are upholding the living
conditions that they are supposed to be upholding for our
people that live inside of those.
Public housing should be safe housing. We have a task
force. We announced a new hotline that people can call if there
is nefarious activity going on in our public housing
authorities: 1-800-347-3735 is the number that people can call
to our hotline with our Office of Inspector General.
There is drug trafficking, there is sex trafficking, there
is domestic violence. There are all kinds of things that are
going on criminally inside of housing authorities, and I am not
willing to turn a blind eye to that anymore. We need to protect
our women, our children, and our families to be safe in housing
authorities.
So I unapologetically want to say we are going to root out
crime and come for those who are doing criminal and nefarious
activity because we will not stand for that any longer, sir.
Mr. Huizenga. Amen. Thank you for that. The folks that they
are supposed to be serving deserve that.
One last thing here in the closing moments. I want to talk
a little bit about home ownership. I actually happen to be a
former realtor; family is involved in construction. I
appreciated our time that we spent this fall at HUD's
Innovative Housing Showcase that was on The Mall.
Unfortunately, in the midst of that, we found out about the
shooting of Charlie Kirk, which cast a bit of a cloud on that.
With respect to modular manufacturing, factory-built
housing--I cannot believe my time is up. All right.
I will ask the question in writing, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Hill. Thank you, Vice Chairman.
Mr. Huizenga. I would like to see how we are helping out
using modular.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr.
Sherman, the ranking member on our Subcommittee on Capital
Markets, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Sherman. Thank you.
Mr. Secretary, you spoke with great pride about how your
Department has helped disaster victims. That is chiefly through
the Community Development Block Grant Disaster Recovery (CDBG-
DR) program. The biggest disaster we have had in the last 12
months or so is the L.A. fires, well over $100 billion of
damage. Thank you for visiting in March.
One thing that your Department has done is a 90-day
moratorium for mortgage foreclosures, but that was already a
matter of California State law. So it was really an illusory
action.
You do not have a CDBG-DR program for the L.A. fires. So
you have not done anything for the biggest disaster this
country has faced, not one penny, although you speak about how
important it is to help people in disasters.
Do you support a CDBG-DR program for the L.A. fires?
Secretary Turner. Sir, I did go out there. Thank you for
bringing that up, Congressman.
Mr. Sherman. Do you support----
Secretary Turner. When I went out there, I met with local
authorities, Mayor Karen Bass and others.
Mr. Sherman. Sir, I am going to reclaim my time and ask
you, do you support a CDBG program for the L.A. fires or you do
not, or you just want to tell me how interesting your trip was,
which I do not have time to hear?
Secretary Turner. No, it was not interesting. I was
actually disappointed in the leadership in California, to be
honest.
Mr. Sherman. So you are saying that the people in my
district should be shafted because you do not like our
politicians?
Secretary Turner. Not at all. I am not----
Mr. Sherman. Do you support a CDBG program for the victims
of the fires, given that you do not like our Governor, et
cetera?
Secretary Turner. This has nothing to do with who I like,
sir. I support----
Mr. Sherman. Okay. Do you support a CDBG program for the
L.A. fires or do you want to just come here, talk about how you
want to help disaster victims, and then not done them one
penny?
Secretary Turner. Last year we gave $12 billion in CDBG-
DR--$12 billion.
Mr. Sherman. Any of it to the L.A. fires, one penny for the
L.A. fires? How much for the L.A. fires?
Secretary Turner. That is all public. You can go find out
but yes, I support a CDBG-DR.
Mr. Sherman. Zero, I already found out, zero. You come
here; you speak about helping disaster victims. This is the
biggest disaster. You have not paid a penny. You say it is
because you do not like politicians or you just say because you
are just not going to bother to support aid for those who
suffered the biggest disaster on the watch of this
administration.
Secretary Turner. Sir----
Mr. Sherman. Yes?
Secretary Turner. I did not say I did not like politicians.
Mr. Sherman. Okay. Well, maybe you like politicians----
Secretary Turner. I said the leadership in California is
the one that you need to be talking to. They are the ones that
are failing the people in California.
Mr. Sherman. Are you saying that the leadership in--that I
should talk to the leadership in California about why your
Department--you come here and you say you are going to--that
you are proud of helping the victims of disasters. You have not
done a single penny, not one penny, for the L.A. fires and I
should go talk to California politicians about why you have not
provided and do not support a single penny for those victims?
Secretary Turner. You need to talk to the leadership in
California about how they are stewarding over the funds they do
have to help those in Palisades and Altadena.
Mr. Sherman. So you are saying you should do nothing
because California should do it on its own with the funds that
it already has.
Why do you come here and tell us how much your Department
helps disaster victims when with the biggest disaster your
response is, oh, the local government should handle that and we
should do nothing.
Secretary Turner. I will repeat, $12 billion in CDBG-DR
that went out----
Mr. Sherman. $12 billion to--how much of that $12 billion
came from your Department and went to the L.A. fire victims?
Secretary Turner. You can go find out.
Mr. Sherman. I know. I already found out. Zero dollars and
zero cents.
Now, you can try to take credit for what other agencies
have done but you came here to talk about your Department
helping fire victims and your Department has helped fire
victims by providing zero dollars and zero cents.
How can you speak with pride about your Department helping
fire victims, helping the victims of disaster, when you
provided zero and you have--and you do not apparently--I keep
asking you to say that you support doing something in the
future with perhaps a supplemental appropriation.
Do you support a CDBG program funded by Congress to help
the victims of the L.A. fires?
Secretary Turner. Sir, I did answer that question. I do
support CDBG-DR.
Mr. Sherman. For the L.A. fires?
Secretary Turner. For all of fire, flood, and victims of
disasters and storms around our country.
Mr. Sherman. Because my Republican colleagues have said
they are ready to go with a supplemental appropriation when
they get the signal from the administration that the
administration supports it. You are here from the
administration. Do you support CDBG that would include the
fires in Los Angeles?
Secretary Turner. Sir, like I have told other members of
this committee, I am happy to work with you and your staff and
this committee to make sure----
Mr. Sherman. I am asking, do you support it? Can you
answer?
Secretary Turner. I did.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr.
Sessions. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Sessions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.
Secretary Turner, welcome.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Mr. Sessions. Your knowledge of not only this issue comes
from experience in the first administration, but also in your
service to the State of Texas. I have watched you and known you
for many years and have great admiration for not just your
integrity but your ability to move forward with answers.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Mr. Sessions. This morning you have had an opportunity to
highlight the things which are important to you. You have
talked about 3,800 housing authorities. You have talked about
HUD by and large helps one in four families that actually need
help.
These were things that we understood during the Biden
Administration. We had a difficult time getting the Biden
Administration to even come to talk with us, mostly because
they did not report to work.
You have had an opportunity to dig into from a perspective
of looking high down low at municipal governance, the things
that they do, whether it be their own housing authorities or
otherwise.
There is an issue now of private investors versus this
opportunity. Who is going to or what would be your idea versus
municipal governance and this issue about private investors
really coming in and building housing quickly, housing that
could be paid for with tax dollars, meaning that they would
provide property taxes back when not owned by the
municipalities?
Can you talk to me about your guidance of this difference
between money for these agencies that are run by local
authorities versus private investors?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, Congressman.
Just so I can understand, could you repeat that? I am
trying to get a clear understanding of what you are asking.
Mr. Sessions. Housing authorities, there are some 3,800 of
them around the country.
Secretary Turner. Yes, uh-huh.
Mr. Sessions. You spoke about the need to make sure that
they have rules and regulations, money to run themselves.
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Sessions. We also heard you say by and large that takes
care of about one-fourth of the need that is out there.
I am asking about the private investor. How are we going to
take care of the other three quarters?
You have had a chance to come in and look at the private
investor coming in, building, getting things done, that
property being on the tax rolls, and people getting the help
that they need more immediately.
Secretary Turner. Oh, yes, sir.
So when I alluded to HUD is serving one out of four people
that need help that we should be serving in our country, that
is an overall picture of the lack of stewardship that was going
on in the Biden Administration.
With record funding we have homelessness that has gone up,
we have housing affordability issues, we have PHA issues. When
I speak of this, what I am saying is that we have to be better
stewards to maximize the budget at HUD so that we can actually
serve the people that need to be served in our country.
When you have millions of illegal aliens coming over our
border, this puts a strain on our housing supply, it puts a
strain on housing affordability in our country. Fifty-nine
percent of illegal alien families use at least one or more of
our welfare programs, which costs us about $42 billion a year.
That is a strain on the budget of HUD.
We need to be serving the people in public housing
authorities, in homelessness, as we have said, in disaster
recovery that we are supposed to be serving, that is the
American people.
Yes, we do like to have public-private partnerships, to
your question, using the private sector as it pertains to
housing, as it pertains to a Rental Assistance Demonstration
(RAD) conversion and things of this nature.
So public-private partnerships have done a great deal in
our country. We saw that a lot in the opportunity zone policy
initiative in the first Trump Administration.
I hope I answered your question.
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir, which is why I assume when you
engaged with Ms. Waters that there was a decision that was made
about putting these dollars where they need to be, with private
investors.
Well, I think this committee on a bipartisan basis will be
interested as you come up with these answers looking top down
at the needs of people. I do believe that we have got a series
of rules and regulations that are not helping us to help people
today all across this country. I will look forward to your
leadership and hearing from you.
Thank you very much. As always, I hope you will go back to
your team and tell them the American people care very much
about the success of HUD.
Secretary Turner. Thank you so much.
Mr. Sessions. I yield back my time, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from Missouri, Mr.
Cleaver, who is the ranking member of our Housing and Insurance
Subcommittee.
Mr. Cleaver, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think everybody usually speaks from their own experience.
This morning in Davos the President spoke about his executive
order about large institutional purchases of single-family
homes.
This issue is kind of like people who you cannot tell them
otherwise, they are absolutely sure that it is true, which is
people will say, well, the Bible says that money is the root of
all evil, which is not what the Bible says. It could be a
little clearer if they said brokeness is the root of all evil,
but they said it was the love of money. You cannot change it,
this has been going on for centuries, people just misquote it.
The same thing happens with this issue of institutional
purchases. Eighty-one percent--having lived in public housing,
like Mr. Torres and I, we both feel really strongly about
this--81 percent of the people who live in public housing and
nondisabled public housing are working every day but if you go
around and ask people, oh, the people in public housing do not
work.
I used to tell my father not to watch the hearing if we
were going to talk about public housing because he worked three
jobs to get us out and into our own home, but I am not going
to--I do not want to stay on that. I just want to tell you that
I was glad to see the President mention housing, but that was
such a--I mean, it is a small, small, small portion of home
purchases.
The one thing I hope that we can all be careful about is
saying things like that creates problems.
I want to yield at this time to the ranking member, Maxine
Waters, the rest of my time.
Ms. Waters. Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Secretary Turner, let us get down to a fact. I am a Black
woman; you are a Black man. You know about the struggles that
our people have had for justice and equality in housing.
Now, I understand that you know about a community in
Ravenden, Arkansas, called Return to the Land that advertises
itself as Whites only. Its community architects screen
applicants with an in-person interview, a questionnaire about
their ancestry, a criminal background check, even with family
photographs, and confirm that applicants are White before they
can be welcome into the community. They have already rejected
applicants that they believed did not appear to be White
enough.
Now, you know about this community, you know what is going
on down there. What are you going to do about it?
Secretary Turner. Thank you, Congressman Cleaver.
Thank you, Ranking Member Waters.
As a matter of fact, I do not know about this community.
This is the first time that I am hearing about this community
but thank you for bringing that to my attention, because we
enforce the law at HUD under my leadership.
Ms. Waters. Okay. I just want to know----
Secretary Turner. Thank you for telling me about that.
Ms. Waters [continuing]. that you know about it now. I am
telling you about it, whether or not you are going to
investigate it.
By the way, there is no such thing as an illegal alien. Are
you talking about undocumented or are you talking about
somebody that comes from another planet?
Second, my chair here is from Arkansas and there is a place
called Cotton Plant, Arkansas, where my family knew about and
served and picked cotton and all of that, discriminated
against, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Not only do I want you to know about this community that I
am giving some information about, but I want you to also look
over here in Arkansas at Cotton Plant, Arkansas, where the
people are desperate, where the housing is falling apart, where
the incomes are absolutely absent over there. Take a look at
what is going on.
As a minister and as a Black man, do what our ancestors
expect us to do when we get in these important positions. They
expect us to speak up, to speak out, and to get rid of
discrimination and look out for the people who have been
discriminated against for all of these years.
I yield back.
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Ranking Member.
Mr. Secretary, what I hope is I can get some information on
this, why HUD justifies imposing a work requirement on PHAs
when 81 percent of the people are working. I mean, if you could
have someone explain to me or send me some kind of a response--
81 percent.
Thank you. I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Hill. Ranking member of the subcommittee yields
back.
It is a pleasure to now recognize the gentlewoman from
Missouri, Mrs. Wagner, the chair of our Capital Markets
Subcommittee.
You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Wagner. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome, Secretary Turner.
As you are likely aware, the average first-time homebuyer
in the United States is now 40 years old. To make that
statistic even more staggering, the share of home purchases
that are made by first-time buyers is now only 21 percent,
marking a 50 percent contraction since 2007, right before the
Great Recession.
Clearly, housing supply is not keeping up with demand,
especially for young couples that are looking to start a life
together and have a place of their own to raise a family.
For millions of people across this country, the prospect of
owning a home seems completely out of reach. Last year the
National Association of Realtors found that while housing
inventory is increasing, much of this supply has only been
available to wealthier Americans and middle-income buyers have
seen little to no change in the housing stock available to
them.
One of the goals of the bipartisan Housing for the 21st
Century Act is to modernize and reform outdated housing
programs to better fit the needs of today, including from
middle-income homebuyers.
Secretary Turner, can you describe why it is important to
update outdated frameworks? What administrative or regulatory
changes can HUD and Congress make to modernize them?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. Thank you, Congresswoman.
You are exactly right, streamlining the processes,
modernizing the code is of utmost importance I know to this
committee and also to myself and our team at HUD.
When you talk about the average first-time homebuyer age
now being 40 years old, it used to be 33 years old just several
years ago. The average price of a house in America now is
$435,000, which is unsustainable and out of reach for a lot of
people, in particular our younger generation.
As you know from the President, myself, and other leaders
and I know this committee, home ownership, the American Dream
of achieving that is of upmost importance. It is bipartisan
housing, it is not political, but we do have to modernize our
codes.
We do have to get the interest rates down. We have to get
mortgage rates down, the inflation is down, get our fiscal
house in order as we are doing over the past year to make sure
that more people in America can achieve the American Dream of
owning a home.
So we are working tirelessly to bring down the regulations,
to get our fiscal house in order, to work with our agency
partners to ensure that people can own a home in this country.
Mrs. Wagner. Thank you. Thank you, Secretary Turner. I know
that President Trump and this administration are absolutely
committed to doing this and to making--to make housing much
more affordable to middle-class average Americans across this
country. I believe that through the Housing for the 21st
Century Act, that this committee aims to make it easier to
build more housing and give more Americans the opportunity to
own a home.
One of the biggest issues that this bill tackles is
unnecessary government red tape. Recently, the National
Association of Home Builders found that regulations at all
levels of government account for nearly 25 percent of the price
of constructing a single-family home. When the median listing
price for a single-family home in my home State of Missouri is
nearly $300,000, nearly 25 percent can make the difference
between being able to afford a home or not.
Secretary Turner, what is HUD doing to remove unnecessary
red tape and costly regulations to bolster housing supply, and
how can Congress continue to support this work?
Secretary Turner. Thank you, ma'am, and you are indeed
right. Twenty-five percent to build a single-family home is in
the regulation 40 percent, and when you build a multifamily,
that is unsustainable and--from any contractor, developer, or
construction company.
As I said before, we took down the Affirmatively Furthering
Fair Housing, which is a costly, burdensome regulation on
localities. I have been traveling our country extensively
meeting with mayors, localities, zoning--planning and zoning
professionals, economic development professionals, asking them
and encouraging them too to take inventory of their regulatory
environment to unleash building and development in their said
communities.
Mrs. Wagner. There is one other thing I want to bring to
your attention. You probably will not have enough time to
answer, so you can do so in writing, but I brought this issue
up before. We have heard that there is--too much focus has gone
toward refurbishing existing housing stock rather than new
construction. So--certainly in the private sector but also in
the public sector. So I want to make sure that we are putting
money and directing Federal money toward new supply and new
housing.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, ma'am.
Mrs. Wagner. You can answer in writing. I will put the
question to you.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
Chairman Hill. The chair recognizes the gentleman from
Connecticut, Mr. Himes, who is the ranking member of the House
Intelligence Committee. Mr. Himes, you are recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. Himes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I thank you, Secretary, for being here. I am going to
dovetail with Mrs. Wagner's comments. I have been working in
housing for a long time, going back 20 years ago when I ran the
New York office of Enterprise Community Partners. Where I come
from, we have a massive housing affordability crisis.
Do you agree--and it sounds like Mrs. Wagner has the same
situation. Do you agree that much of this country is enveloped
in a housing affordability crisis?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We indeed have a housing
affordability crisis.
Mr. Himes. Okay, and there is near unanimous agreement
amongst the people who study this stuff that there are many
millions of unbuilt units. Some people say 3 million. Some
people say as high as 6 or 7 million. Basic economics tells us
that when supply goes up price goes down.
Do you have an independent estimate for the number of
millions of units that the United States needs to build in
order to sort of achieve some level or to reduce the crisis in
affordability?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, and I thank you. The numbers
are accurate. I have heard between 4 and 7 million units of all
types of housing.
Mr. Himes. Okay. Okay. So I want to give you another chance
to answer Mrs. Wagner's last question about what you are
actually doing. I think the world understands and I think you
understand that as noble as the work inside HUD is, the single
biggest reason housing is not getting built is regulation at
the State and municipal level, land use, et cetera.
So my question is a version of Mrs. Wagner's question. What
are you doing--not to ask but to require--maybe using the tools
at your disposal like CDBG funding--to actually effect change
in what matters, which is State and local land use regulation?
Secretary Turner. Absolutely. I agree it is on the State
and local level, and we are discussing a myriad of ideas,
incentives, not only CDBG but others. You look at opportunity
zones. Opportunity zones give us a great platform to build all
types of housing and particularly in----
Mr. Himes. Opportunity zones generally exclude the use of
those funds for the building of housing.
Secretary Turner. Well, and that is--we have a second round
of opportunity zones coming, and I have been looking at this
very heavily as the leader of the Opportunity Zone Initiative
last time on how we can prioritize single-family housing inside
of opportunity zones.
Sir, I have been encouraging--and, obviously, I cannot
mandate localities, but I have been encouraging localities to
look at their regulatory environment--it does not matter what
city or what State it is in--and see how they can ease the
regulatory environment and take down these barriers so that
housing can be built. Multifamily, single family--I believe
manufactured housing will play a big role. We have got about 22
million people in our country that live in manufactured housing
right now.
Mr. Himes. You see, my concern is here--and I appreciate
that you agree with the supply issue, but I am hearing words
like ``discuss,'' ``encourage.'' You agreed with me that this
is a crisis.
You may remember--you probably do not remember. I am older
than you are. The Federal Government in the 1970s basically
imposed a 55 mile-an-hour speed limit on the country by saying
you do not get to our highway funds unless you go to 55. Now,
that has changed now, but my point is you have got some tools.
So give me more than you are encouraging and hoping and
discussing, because we have, as we agree, a crisis.
Secretary Turner. Yes. We do have tools.
Mr. Himes. Tell me about them.
Secretary Turner. What we are working with right now is our
team--the President obviously is taking bold steps to attack
housing affordability and make housing more affordable both on
the demand and the supply side, and we are working on these
ideas. We are working on strategies right now. We are about
execution and we will have things coming out that we can do to
help and to incentivize housing affordability across our
country.
I am not just giving you words, but what we are doing is
actually taking action inside of our agency and across other
agencies in this Cabinet.
Mr. Himes. Okay. So if you are not just giving me words,
give me a number. You did not give me a specific number, but
you are agreeing with me that there is a shortfall of somewhere
between 3 and 7 million units.
So if 3 years from now we look back on your tenure as
Secretary, what is the number that will allow you to say to
yourself I was a successful HUD Secretary in terms of new
construction?
Secretary Turner. Well, last year at FHA, we helped already
1 million home buyers through FHA and----
Mr. Himes. No, no. I am talking about new construction
here. I am not talking about helping people buy existing.
Secretary Turner. I understand but my job is at HUD, and we
helped over 1 million home buyers.
Mr. Himes. I have got a simple question, which is what is--
--
Secretary Turner. I do not have a specific number for you,
but the more people that we have----
Mr. Himes. Sir, let me reclaim my time here. I am trying to
pin you down because we are agreeing that we have a massive
supply crisis here.
Secretary Turner. I know. We do but you cannot pin me down
on a number. I think the most people--the more people that we
have that are homeowners in America, that is a win, not just
for myself but for our country. We have 7 million units right
now that we need and the more we can cut those units down and
get more people in America to be homeowners, to living in a
home, that is success.
Mr. Himes. Let me just--let me just stop you there. I think
you are smelling what I am cooking here, right. We have got to
get serious about increasing supply and I am with you 100
percent on home ownership----
Secretary Turner. I do agree.
Mr. Himes [continuing]. but it is also about renters. My
grandparents had one job their career and they stayed in one
place. Young people today have seven jobs before they are 40.
So it is also about renters. Anyway, I appreciate your
acknowledgment of the supply side----
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Himes [continuing]. but we have got to get serious
about that.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Secretary Turner. I am happy to work with you, sir.
Chairman Hill. I recognize the gentleman from Kentucky, Mr.
Barr, who is the chair of our Financial Institutions
Subcommittee. Mr. Barr, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Barr. Secretary Turner, thanks for the great job you
are doing. I was so pleased to see that HUD announced in
November changes to the Continuum of Care Program, the largest
Federal homelessness program. Under President Trump and your
leadership, we can now finally move away from the failed
Housing First methodology, instead focusing on actually solving
the homelessness crisis in our country.
Since the inception of Housing First over a decade ago,
homelessness, as you know, has only increased, with data
showing it reached an all-time high in 2024. That is why for
multiple Congresses, I have introduced the Housing PLUS Act
that expands the toolbox at our disposal to address
homelessness and introduces an all-of-the-above approach.
Specifically, my bill prohibits HUD from restricting Continuum
of Care (CoC) funds to providers that provide wraparound
services.
I appreciated your story about your uncle and how what he
needed was not a free apartment. What he needed was wraparound
services, such as sober living or job requirements, and
expanding the universe to include faith-based organizations
that really love people and do a good job.
Do you agree that instead of using a one-size-fits-all
approach to homelessness, we should expand the type of
providers that cannot only help individuals get off the
streets, but also ensure that they have positive long-term
outcomes?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, I do agree.
Mr. Barr. Well, thank you for taking proactive steps to
work with us on moving away from Housing First and toward a
Housing PLUS approach.
Secretary Turner, the median downpayment for first-time
home buyers is 9 percent, making it challenging for many
Americans to achieve the American dream of home ownership.
Innovative solutions such as downpayment assistance through
shared appreciation mortgages can help bridge the affordability
gap. With a shared appreciation mortgage loan, the borrower
agrees to give the lender a portion of the future appreciation
of the home's value in exchange for a lower interest rate, a
smaller downpayment, and/or closing cost assistance, making
home ownership more affordable, reducing monthly payments or
upfront costs.
Has HUD assessed this new asset pool that can assist first-
time home buyers with downpayment assistance?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman. As you
said and I have alluded to, there are many ideas, as you know,
that are out there. We see the President and others taking bold
steps to bring down housing affordability. I do want to work
with you and your team on this idea that you just presented to
me to see how we can help people in America to achieve the
American dream of owning a home. So I do look forward to
working with you on that.
Also, I want to circle back on your Continuum of Care, your
heart for that, for not just housing people but to provide
wraparound services for people. My heart is that we do not have
more homeless people. My heart is that we get people off the
streets, get them treated, get them transformed, and to live a
life of self-independence and sustainability.
Our faith groups around the country are the ones that have
been doing the work for decades, long before the government was
helping in the homelessness. So we want to expand that and
bring people to the table, like our faith-based groups and
others, that are actually bringing results for our
homelessness.
Mr. Barr. Well, thank you so much. I just, for the life of
me, do not understand why we cannot get more bipartisan support
for this idea of expanding the tools in our toolbox. If you
want Housing First, okay.
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Barr. Maybe that is appropriate for some but for a lot
of people, they need the wraparound services. So I appreciate
your shift in approach.
Finally, Secretary Turner, at the end of 2024, the
outstanding volume of family residential construction and land
development loans was $89.5 billion across FDIC-insured
institutions, with community banks holding 56 percent of the
market share. The outsized role of our smallest institutions in
this market stems from their local knowledge and their
relationships with builders, which ultimately helps make
housing more affordable for Americans, but overly burdensome
regulations on our smallest banks stifle their ability to make
construction loans in their communities. That is why Chairman
Hill and I have introduced the Main Street Act to rightsize
regulations so our community banks can focus on stimulating the
local economy and the housing market and help Americans achieve
the goal of home ownership.
Secretary, do you agree that to solve the availability and
affordability of housing in our country we need to ensure that
community banks are not subjected to the same rules as the
largest banks?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, and I know that you and
Chairman Hill have great expertise when it comes to banking and
particularly community banking. I am a fan and in favor of
community banks, credit unions, and others. So I believe the
less regulation that we have on community banks in order for
them to serve people to be homeowners is a step forward that we
need to take. Very looking forward to working with you and your
team.
Mr. Barr. Well, and finally, I would just urge you also to
support raising the public welfare investment limit, and this
is really for the bank regulators. Raise it through----
Mr. Loudermilk [presiding]. The gentleman's time has
expired.
Mr. Barr [continuing]. to unlock more bank capital for
affordable housing.
With that, I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Loudermilk. The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Foster,
the ranking member of the Subcommittee on Financial
Institutions, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Foster. Thank you. I share the chairman's empathy and
sympathy for small community banks. They are really important
to this, and I hope that they listen to the small community
banks. Their number one request right now is stopping the
crypto stablecoin threat to their business model. This is just
something that they are all on high alert about, and I hope
that my Republican colleagues listen to the dangers that
presents to the small community banks that have supported
housing for so long.
For most of the last decade, I represented Joliet,
Illinois, a city with a lot of challenges and a lot of
problems, and there were two public housing projects sort of at
the extreme difference in performance. Starting with the good
story, Liberty Meadows was built. It is a rent-to-own thing for
first-time homeowners, mixed income. When I first went
through--went to that--right after it was built is when I
started representing Joliet--it looked beautiful. You could
not--I literally got lost there. I could not tell the
difference between Liberty Meadows and the adjacent normal-
looking suburbs.
It was a rent-to-own thing. When I would ask about it, I
was told the details were if you stayed current on your rent--
they were given training on how to maintain a house, and if you
stayed current on your rent for 10 or 15 years, you ended up
owning that property. I went through there 10 years later and
looked, and the thing still looked like a normal suburb. The
houses had been maintained fully. Most of those people, I
imagine by now, are now owning those houses, and that was a
success.
One of my other--I guess you would call it a joy of
representing Joliet--was getting in an excavator and helping
tear down Fairview homes, which was a failed public housing
project. When I ripped those apart, I was flabbergasted to see
there was, like, zero insulation on them. If you are trying to
operate either in the summer or winter, the utility cost--and I
talked to some of the residents. They said when they moved out
of Fairview homes into a normal place, they just were amazed at
how the utility bills were so much lower because--and so there
is this tradeoff always. Do you want to make a lot of cheap
units with high utility costs or are you going to actually put
the money up front?
Now, our President at Davos talked a couple of interesting
things relative to housing. One of them--which I will get to
the connection soon--was to demand that the builders of data
centers build the power generation so that they do not cause
the electric prices to get bid up. As you remember, one of the
main promises that President Trump got elected on is, in his
first year in office, he would drop electrical and gas bills by
a factor of two. Okay. I take it you do not have a plan to
execute that since that timed out yesterday and the prices have
not gotten--dropped by 50 percent but actually increased.
So that is what we have to do if we are going to make
progress on utility bills, we are going to have to provide
higher-quality units. It is tough because anyone in charge of
this, whether it is a commercial builder or public sector,
wants to build lots of units and does not focus on the utility
bill, and everyone that studies this say we underinvest in it.
Everyone who studies this issue says what are called negawatts
are much cheaper than megawatts. If you are forced to either
build new generating capacity--that costs a certain amount of
money--it is much cheaper to fund efficiency improvements.
One of the ways that I hope your administration looks into
solving this problem is to make the builders of data centers,
instead of having to build new megawatts, can build new
negawatts by actually subsidizing better insulation, higher-
efficiency modern appliances because that was one of the key
differences between Liberty Meadows. At the top of the value
proposition to renters there they said, because we put in high
efficiency--high-efficiency appliances, because they are well-
insulated, everything that makes the utility costs low, it will
be a good deal. You will be able to afford that rent and afford
to eventually own the property.
So why do you not try to jump from one agency to another
and look and talk to the Department of Energy? When they set
down the rules for data centers, tell them, make sure that the
data centers--when they are faced with the question of
putting--we are spending trillions of dollars on these data
centers, okay. So take a small amount of that money, put it
into energy efficiency improvements for workforce housing, and
I think we will get a societal return on investment that you
will be proud of forever.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Foster. Okay. Just in my last few seconds here. There
is also this question of whether to blocking institutional
investors from investing in single-family homes. I was around
during the crisis when nobody--there were these neighborhoods
being abandoned, the copper ripped out of things for the houses
and neighborhoods were being gutted. The only buyers then were
institutional investors. So go slow with that. It is not an
unmitigated----
Mr. Loudermilk. The gentleman's time has expired.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Loudermilk. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for
questioning.
Mr. Secretary, it is good to see you again.
Secretary Turner. Good to see you, sir.
Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you for being here today. Very
important topic. I am glad to see that my bill, H.R. 5520, the
Portal for Appraisal Licensing Act, was actually noticed for
this hearing. While I believe that State regulators should
continue to serve as the primary regulators of the industry, I
also see a clear need to streamline the licensing process as
more appraisers operate across State lines.
Secretary Turner, another area where appraisers could
benefit from a streamlined process is HUD's appraisal complaint
resolution procedures. I applaud your work to end diversity,
equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives at HUD and specifically
your recent announcement regarding disparate impact theory. As
you know, in your comments, the disparate impact framework has
too often been applied in ways that treat appraisers as
convenient enforcement agents or enforcement--convenient
enforcement targets without clear evidence of discriminatory
intent or appraisal standards violations.
What steps is HUD taking to reduce the backlog of
unresolved appraisal complaints and ensure that appraisers are
not subjected to prolonged uncertainty or reputational damage
when no violation exists?
Secretary Turner. Well, thank you, Congressman. I
appreciate that.
As I said before, when we came in, we want to--a big goal
is to streamline all of our processes, as you have alluded to
in particular, and you talk about the appraisal process. Our
housing staff, our housing team, our FHEO team have done a
great job in streamlining these processes and will continue to
do so.
When we came in the financial controls were not there. They
were weakened. There was a blind eye turned to transparency and
accountability, but I think in the last 12 months that our team
has done an extremely good job of streamlining these processes
for the private sector, and we will continue to do that, sir.
Also, we want to investigate real discrimination cases and
not phantom discrimination cases, and I believe that the
American people deserve that. In the Biden Administration,
there was a 70 percent backlog of these cases that did not even
meet the 100-day statutory requirement as it pertains to
discrimination. So we are back on track. We have a great team,
and we will continue to streamline these so that the industry
can move efficiently.
Mr. Loudermilk. Well, thank you for your work there. I want
to shift quickly over to notice to vacate.
Is its HUD's view that the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and
Economic Security (CARES) Act temporary pandemic-era, 30-day
notice to vacate requirement was never intended to be a
permanent Federal overlay on State landlord-tenant law?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you, as I do as well. Does HUD
currently support maintaining the 30-day Federal notice to
vacate requirement or does the administration agree it is
appropriate for Congress to sunset this pandemic-era mandate?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Loudermilk. You agree that we should end that. Thank
you.
While Congress considers my bill, the Respect State Housing
Laws Act, is HUD taking any administrative steps to acknowledge
the temporary nature of the CARES Act requirement, such as
issuing clarifying guidance, updating compliance materials, or
preparing for a transition back to the State-level notice
rules?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We are working diligently on
that, as you know, with our team.
Mr. Loudermilk. Well, thank you. Would you agree that
eliminating the Federal notice requirement, as my bill does,
would reduce confusion in the housing market by eliminating
multiple, sometimes conflicting notice timelines?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I know that has been a
burdensome process, a conflicting process, and so, anything
that can tear that down, yes, sir, we do support.
Mr. Loudermilk. Well, thank you. In conversations with HUD
stakeholders, including Public Housing Agencies and affordable
housing operators, have you heard concerns about the
administrative burdens created by the existence of the Federal
notice requirement?
Secretary Turner. Yes. I know that our team down at
Housing--obviously, they hear more than me, but that has been
something that we have discussed and that I heard of, yes, sir.
Mr. Loudermilk. All right. Thank you. I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Loudermilk. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gonzalez, is
now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you and thank you, Mr. Secretary, for
joining us today.
Mr. Secretary, I cannot help but listen to some of your
comments earlier today of you so loosely using the word of
``illegal aliens.'' I think coming from Texas and being an
ordained minister, you know it is offensive, right, to our
community? I know you are trying really hard to fit into this
administration, but it is offensive, and it is offensive to the
same people that you preach to and the members of your church
in Dallas. That is something I had to comment, and I hope that
you can think about that and pray about that and hopefully
change that behavior because it is wrong and it is not a
Christian thing to do.
I would like to turn my question, Mr. Secretary, to a more
serious issue that we have at hand, and that is housing
affordability in this country. We have to be honest about that
because, while we talk about immigrants, 30 percent of
construction workers in this country are immigrants. In Texas,
about 40 percent of construction workers are immigrants and in
your city of Dallas--in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, Houston,
San Antonio, that number goes up to about 60 percent depending
where you are.
Just recently, I met with the South Texas Builders
Association and had a very candid conversation about the labor
shortage that we are suffering in Texas and across the country.
Just last year, it was shown that we would have had 400,000
homes less built in this country if it had not been for
immigrant labor.
Right now, I have builders, I have realtors, I have
lenders, I have title companies coming to me. These are folks
who supported President Trump in his last election, who came to
me and said what nobody else would say out loud: We need
immigrants to build America, and we cannot do it without
immigrant labor. We have a labor shortage in this country. We
especially have a labor shortage in carpentry, in framing, in
brick and tile laying. I know people say, well, we need to
build our workforce. Well, we probably do need to build our
workforce, but we are not going to do that overnight.
What are we doing and what are you telling the President
about these policies that are effectively killing any real
chance of solving the housing affordability in this country?
Secretary Turner. Well, thank you, Congressman. I
appreciate you being here. As a fellow Texan, I am a fourth-
generation Texan, and I want to go back to the comments you
said that is offensive. I do not believe that it is offensive.
I understand----
Mr. Gonzalez. It is offensive.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. where you are coming from
but as a pastor when I call Black people Black, that is not
offensive. So there is nothing that I am going to say----
Mr. Gonzalez. But there are words that you can call Black
people that would be offensive, correct?
Secretary Turner. It is.
Mr. Gonzalez. That is right.
Secretary Turner. But I am not being----
Mr. Gonzalez. Well, anyway, let us talk about what we are
doing in the administration to stop our labor shortage.
Secretary Turner. Gotcha. Gotcha. I just wanted to
recognize that you brought up the fact about me being a pastor.
Mr. Gonzalez. Yes. I think you are wrong, and I think you
should think about that.
Secretary Turner. I do understand that the language that I
use is very important, so--but I am not being offensive.
The American people--we have plenty American people for
American jobs, and that is my concentration. To say that we
have to have migrants to do these jobs, I believe, is a slap in
the face for the American people.
Mr. Gonzalez. Well, we have a labor shortage. It is real.
Mr. Gonzalez. We need to increase the trades in our
country. We need to bring back manufacturing in our country----
Mr. Gonzalez. Okay. Reclaiming my time. We do need to do
that, but we are not going to do that overnight. How are we
going to solve the housing crisis that we have in this country
today and that we have in Texas that I am sure you are very
well aware of?
Secretary Turner. Of course.
Mr. Gonzalez. We have a housing shortage. We have a labor
shortage. We have projects that are on hold across the State of
Texas and probably across the country because we do not have
the labor to do it. The only labor that is willing to do it is
mostly immigrant labor that is doing some of the most dangerous
work and the hardest work in this country. That, I think, was
exemplified when we had the bridge that collapsed here in
Baltimore.
We really need to have a serious conversation on addressing
the labor shortage for this country. These are Donald Trump
supporters. These people voted for Trump. They thought he was
going to help the country, and he has actually hurt them.
Framing prices in my district have doubled this year alone
because of the labor shortage. That is just the framing of it.
You can keep on going. Carpentry, bricklaying, roofing, those
are all labor--immigrant labor forces that are handling most of
that for the country but especially in States and the largest
and most--and the fastest growing States like Texas, Florida,
New York, California, and many other places in this country.
This is a serious conversation that can only be addressed by
you and this President, and I really hope you all can do that.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir, I appreciate that.
Mr. Gonzalez. I yield back.
Chairman Hill [presiding]. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes another Texan, Hon. Roger Williams,
who is chair of the House Small Business Committee. Mr.
Williams, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Williams of Texas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Hello to my friend and my church friend. Good to see you.
Thanks for being here, Mr. Secretary.
In communities across the country, especially in districts
like mine in Texas--and you know where that is in north Texas--
housing is often built by small family-owned builders who
operate on tight margins and rely on predictable timelines to
stay afloat. These small businesses are deeply rooted in their
communities but do not have an army of lawyers or compliance
officers to manage complex Federal processes. So every added
reform, review, or delay increases financing costs and
uncertainty, and for small builders, even modest delays can
result in increased costs that jeopardize the future of the
entire project.
So, Mr. Secretary, how can HUD better tailor its programs,
so timing and compliance do not disproportionately harm small
businesses?
Secretary Turner. Well, thank you, sir. It is good to see
you as always, and I will make sure that I tell Dr. Graham that
I had the opportunity to speak with you today.
It is the regulatory environment that is crippling our
small businesses, including builders, to work with localities,
to work with mayors, to work with planning and zoning. To make
sure that they take inventory of their regulations has been
something I have been pushing and encouraging and traveling the
State, traveling the country, and meeting with these leaders to
take a look at their regulations and see how they can bring
them down so that they can unleash innovative and creativity
from our small businesses, our small builders around our
country. I am with you and I agree with you on that, and it is
a big push that we have to make.
We can do what we can from the Federal level, and we are
doing that from HUD, as I said before, and taking down the
Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing rule, restoring local
control. I think the two working together as a whole of the
government is how we can unleash and help small businesses.
Mr. Williams of Texas. In smaller and rural communities,
community banks and local leaders are the primary source for
financing housing projects. Now, these institutions know their
communities best. They work closely with local builders and
play an essential role in getting housing projects off the
ground. However, when Federal housing programs become too
complex or uncertain, that complexity can affect whether local
lenders are willing to participate in a project at all.
So, Mr. Secretary, could you elaborate on how reducing
Federal complexity regulations could make housing projects more
attractive to community banks and the local lenders?
Secretary Turner. Oh, yes, sir. I think that anything that
we can take that is burdensome or duplicative as it pertains to
this is something that can help our local community banks. If
you have ideas, sir, or things that you are working on, please
bring them to us. We will be happy to work with you and your
team on that.
Mr. Williams of Texas. We are reducing a lot of regulations
in----
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Williams of Texas. --Small Business Administration
(SBA), et cetera. There have been some good things.
Many of HUD's core housing projects were designed decades
ago for a very different housing market than we have today, and
while construction costs, financing, and building methods have
changed, many Federal requirements have stayed the same. This
is why the Housing for the 21st Century Act takes a necessary
approach to modernize outdated programs, cutting unnecessary
red tape, and restoring flexibility for States, local
governments, and housing providers.
My last question to you, Mr. Secretary, is, can you explain
why modernizing HUD's statutory framework is critical to
increasing housing supply today?
Secretary Turner. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, when you talk about
manufactured housing codes and you talk about different codes
across the agency, anytime we can modernize those and
streamline those, the efficiency is better, the cost is down,
which both of those things help and impact the housing
affordability issue that we have going on in our country.
Mr. Williams of Texas. Well, thank you, and do say hello to
Patrick Jack Graham. I appreciate it.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Williams of Texas. I yield my time back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes another Texan, Hon. Mr. Green of
Houston, Texas, who is the ranking member on our Oversight and
Investigations Subcommittee. Mr. Green, you are recognized for
5 minutes.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the ranking
member as well. I thank the witness for appearing today.
Mr. Secretary, do you believe that racism exists in
housing?
Secretary Turner. Could you repeat that, sir?
Mr. Green. Do you believe that racism exists in housing?
Secretary Turner. Sir, what I believe is that to achieve
the American dream of home ownership in our country, there are
a lot of barriers to that going on right now.
Mr. Green. Is racism one of those barriers, Mr. Secretary?
Secretary Turner. I believe in----
Mr. Green. Mr. Secretary?
Secretary Turner [continuing]. helping people to achieve
the American dream----
Mr. Green. Mr. Secretary, I appreciate your comments.
Excuse me. I appreciate your comments about the American Dream,
Mr. Secretary, but we are talking about racism right now.
Racism.
Let me just read something to you. The National Fair
Housing Alliance has condemned the administration, and they
have done so because some 400 employees received notice that
they were going to be fired. This is something that dates back
to 15 of October 2025.
Do you know how many employees have been fired at HUD, Mr.
Secretary?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Green. How many?
Secretary Turner. Well, we gave employees----
Mr. Green. How many were fired, if you would, please?
Secretary Turner. About 2,400 people took the Deferred
Resignation Program (DRP), sir.
Mr. Green. How many were fired? Two thousand four hundred
took the DRP. How many were fired?
Secretary Turner. They were all voluntary.
Mr. Green. I see. Okay. How many were fired from the area
that deals with Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity? How many
from that area?
Secretary Turner. Sir, I can get those exact numbers for
you, but I know 2,400 people took the DRP.
Mr. Green. This indication that I have indicates that the
administration is completely destroying the Federal
Government's capacity to address housing discrimination. That
is why I asked you about racism. Racism is pretty important. It
is still happening in this country, and we need a HUD Secretary
that realizes this and is not afraid to say it on national TV
at prime time.
Do you have some consternation about saying that racism
exists in housing?
Secretary Turner. Sir, I do not have any consternation.
Mr. Green. Okay. Well, then tell me, what are you doing to
enforce----
Secretary Turner. It is my job----
Mr. Green [continuing]. tell me, what are you doing to help
us prevent people from discriminating when it comes to housing
and persons wanting to acquire a house or a home?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Green. What are you doing?
Secretary Turner. I will repeat this. I have no
consternation.
Mr. Green. Okay. You have no consternation.
Secretary Turner. My job is to follow the law.
Mr. Green. But tell me what you are doing now. Now, that is
kind of important. What are you doing?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Green.
So what we are doing is investigating real discrimination
and not phantom discrimination, and that is my job as HUD----
Mr. Green. Okay. How are you doing it?
Secretary Turner. We have a great staff. We have a great
staff at FHEO.
Mr. Green. Okay. Well, tell me, how are you doing--what are
they doing to investigate it? What methodology are they
utilizing?
Secretary Turner. We are upholding the Fair Housing Act,
sir.
Mr. Green. What methodology are they utilizing? Are you
familiar with something called testing, Mr. Secretary?
Secretary Turner. Sir, repeat that, please.
Mr. Green. Testing.
Secretary Turner. Testing?
Mr. Green. Testing.
Secretary Turner. Yes.
Mr. Green. Okay. Well, tell me what is happening with
testing.
Secretary Turner. As it pertains to?
Mr. Green. Fair housing.
Secretary Turner. Sir, could you be clearer for me, please?
Mr. Green. You are the Secretary of HUD.
Secretary Turner. I know it.
Mr. Green. You are not aware that there is something called
testing?
Secretary Turner. Excuse me, sir.
Mr. Green. Could we get that gentleman to testify, Mr.
Chairman?
Secretary Turner. Yes. The Fair Housing Initiatives Program
(FHIP) grants? Yes, sir. Sir, you went from discrimination to
FHIP grants.
Mr. Green. Okay. Well, tell me what you are doing in the
area of testing.
Secretary Turner. Sir, our Office of Fair Housing and Equal
Opportunity are carrying out their mission and their fiduciary
responsibility every single day.
Mr. Green. What are you doing in the area? How many people
have you tested? Give me the percentage of people that have
been tested.
Secretary Turner. I can get that number for you, sir. I am
happy to do it.
Mr. Green. Okay. Tell me how would they perform a test.
Secretary Turner. I can get that for you, sir.
Mr. Green. No, no, no. How would they test--this is
something you would know because this is the methodology, the
means by which testing is done. So I am asking you now to let
the world know that you understand this process. How is testing
performed?
Mr. Chairman, it looks like we need to take a moment for
the Secretary.
Secretary Turner. Yes. Sir----
Mr. Green. Can we take this off of my time, please?
Secretary Turner. Mr. Green, we have a whole office that
does that.
Mr. Green. Okay. Well, tell me how--do they do it.
Secretary Turner. In this time that we have, we do not have
time to walk through the methodology of----
Mr. Green. Yes, you do. This is my time. You have got time
because I say so. How do they do it?
Secretary Turner. I understand, sir. We will have to get
back to you with that.
Mr. Green. How do they do it? You do not know. Listen, if
you are the Secretary of HUD and there is fair housing
discrimination taking place, then you should know what testing
is.
Secretary Turner. Sir, I do know what testing is.
Mr. Green. Okay. Well, then how is it performed?
Secretary Turner. In our offices, we are going after----
Mr. Green. Okay. Let me end with this.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. real discrimination, sir,
not phantom discrimination.
Mr. Green. This is my time. I reclaim my time. Thank you
very much.
This is an indication of how much the Trump
Administration----
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Green [continuing]. has emphasis on invidious
discrimination.
Chairman Hill. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from
Ohio, Mr. Davidson, who chairs our Subcommittee on National
Security. Mr. Davidson, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Davidson. Thank you, Chairman Hill.
Secretary Turner, thank you for agreeing to be our HUD
Secretary and leading that department. I want to start by
recognizing the reforms you have already begun, refocusing the
Department on its core mission: cutting waste, rolling back
misguided Biden-era regulations, and putting taxpayers and
residents first. This is a welcome course correction after
years when HUD's bureaucracy expanded while accountability and
housing conditions deteriorated.
The scale of mismanagement you inherited is enormous. I
mean, they called the New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA)
bust one of the largest fraud cases in American history. HUD's
inspector general identified more than 33,000 life-threatening
deficiencies in public housing requiring immediate correction,
thousands of which were never resolved or even certified as
fixed.
When you look at places like NYCHA, like Washington, DC's
public housing authority, where she became the acting HUD
Secretary. When Secretary Fudge resigned, this person who has
completely mismanaged Washington, DC's public housing
authority, where 50 percent of the units are not even available
because--not because of racism because they do not fix the
place. They are run down. They are not inhabitable and all
kinds of code violations.
So, preventing waste, fraud, and abuse is a core priority
for this administration. Beyond Department of Government
Efficiency (DOGE), every department is working on that. So
could you give us an update on how that fight to get everybody
that does have public housing quality, safe housing?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We are, as you know, holding
public housing authorities accountable as it pertains to who is
living inside of public housing authorities. I went to NYCHA
personally. I visited there. While I was there, there was a 21-
year-old young man that was murdered at a NYCHA facility, and
no one could know who did the offense, who committed the crime.
NYCHA has a lot of problems, which I know we do not have
time to address today, but for NYCHA and other public housing
authorities, we have mandated that they send us a comprehensive
account of everyone that is living inside of a HUD-funded home
to make sure that American taxpayer dollars are used for
American citizens only.
Mr. Davidson. Yes. Thank you for that. That is a big
problem with a lot of public housing authorities. We do not
necessarily have a problem in Ohio where the State government
decided intentionally to include illegals in our safety net,
but some States do. We were seeing that in Minnesota and I will
say that cracking down on scam centers, which is what we do in
the national security, illicit finance lane, not a hint of
partisanship, unless the scam center happens to be like a
Somali daycare or something like that. So, hopefully, that too
will be bipartisan and will cut down on the fraud, waste, and
abuse.
When you look at public housing authorities, do you know or
could you get to me how many are currently in receivership
because you have local communities, whether it is----
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Davidson [continuing]. Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati,
Columbus, Akron, Cleveland, all over Ohio. It does not get the
news that Washington, DC and NYCHA do, but in Middletown, Ohio,
we have problems with public housing. So could you give me a
list of all the ones that are in receivership?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, I will get that to you.
Mr. Davidson. In terms of--what kind of legislation could
we do right now that would help you be better equipped to do
your job?
I think about 30 major programs in--I have got a bill that
I was working on with Mr. Cleaver, with Secretary Fudge, that
would help reauthorize some of these programs and streamline
them. I wanted to get two Republicans and two Democrats
together and make it so you cannot just completely eliminate
the spending, but you also cannot launch more free stuff for
more people.
So you put the guardrails around, so even if they did
agree, they cannot do it, but you could refine it and deal with
things like benefit cliffs and standard definitions of means
testing. We have got three or four different definitions. We
have got multiple definitions for work requirements but one of
the fundamental problems, you have lots of these programs that,
in Congress, are not even reauthorized.
Now, the appropriators cut the checks, so at some level
that gives you the ability to do it, but is there a way that we
could be helpful to you as you go and tackle these challenges?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, and working with Congress and
working with the members of this committee and your team, from
a legislative standpoint, we are happy to do that. So thank you
for asking that. We will do what we do from HUD, but
legislation often does help us as we go forward with our
mission.
Mr. Davidson. Yes. Thank you for doing it. As I say,
hopefully we will be a good resource for you and wish you great
success.
I yield back.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The gentleman from New York, Mr. Torres, you are recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Torres. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Secretary, what is the estimated capital need of the
New York City Housing Authority's public housing stock?
Secretary Turner. The estimated capital need of their
public housing stock----
Mr. Torres. In New York City.
Secretary Turner. Well, I know they have about 597,000
units as we speak.
Mr. Torres. What is the estimated capital need? What would
it take to bring the New York City Housing Authority's public
housing stock into a state of good repair?
Secretary Turner. That is a great question, sir. I can get
that answer for you, but what I do know or what I have----
Mr. Torres. The answer is $80 billion. The answer is $80
billion.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. about $250 million in
arrears already.
Mr. Torres. Eighty billion. How much annual capital
funding----
Secretary Turner. I am sorry, sir. Could you repeat that?
Mr. Torres. Sir, let me ask my question.
Secretary Turner. Okay.
Mr. Torres. How much annual capital funding does NYCHA
receive from HUD?
Secretary Turner. I will get that for you, sir.
Mr. Torres. It is around $700 million to $800 million per
year.
Secretary Turner. Okay.
Mr. Torres. At a rate of $800 million a year, how long
would it take to address an $80 billion capital need? I will
give you a hint. It is $80 billion divided by $800 million.
Secretary Turner. Sir, I was writing down a note. I am
sorry for the delay.
Mr. Torres. At current funding levels, it would take a
century to address the capital need at the New York City
Housing Authority.
Secretary Turner. I understand.
Mr. Torres. Do you believe that an annual appropriation of
$800 million is sufficient to address a capital need of $80
billion?
Secretary Turner. What I do believe is $800 million a year
is sufficient to take care of the needs that NYCHA has. What I
need NYCHA to do is to be----
Mr. Torres. You think $800 million is sufficient to address
a capital need of $80 billion?
Secretary Turner. It is sufficient to carry out the job
they need. What we need in NYCHA----
Mr. Torres. Do you believe 100 years----
Secretary Turner. What we need in NYCHA----
Mr. Torres. Let me finish my question. Do you believe 100
years is a reasonable timeline to bring public housing into a
state of good repair for hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers?
Secretary Turner. Again, what I am going to say is this.
The funds that NYCHA has--it is not a funding issue, sir. It is
a stewardship issue. NYCHA is about $250 million in arrears
already. It is not about----
Mr. Torres. Wait. $800 million in annual funding for an $80
billion capital need?
Secretary Turner. It is not about the money, sir, that they
get. It is not about the amount. It is about the management of
it.
Mr. Torres. I mean, 100 years is a long time. I mean, it
makes a 50-year mortgage look like a short-term commitment and
that 100-year estimate understates the true depth of the crisis
because the capital need, as you know, is not static. Buildings
continue to age, systems continue to fail, deferred maintenance
compounds over time, all while HUD remains content to keep
public housing in a state of demolition by neglect.
I have a question about home ownership. What is the median
age of a first-time home buyer in America?
Secretary Turner. It is 40 years right now.
Mr. Torres. Forty. Suppose that buyer takes out a 50-year
mortgage. How old would that home buyer be at the end of the
loan? I am a first-time home buyer at 40 years old. Yes.
Chairman Hill. Let us make sure his microphone is working.
Could we stop the clock, please?
Mr. Torres. Divine intervention?
Chairman Hill. Just a moment, Mr. Torres. Let us do a quick
check on the mike. Your time is----
Mr. Torres. It reminds me of a Greek tragedy when there is
divine intervention to save the----
Chairman Hill. Mr. Secretary, can we ask you just to slide
over there really quick?
Secretary Turner. Yes, I can. It is working.
Chairman Hill. Oh, it is working. Okay.
Mr. Torres. I will start the question.
Chairman Hill. All right.
Mr. Torres. What is the median age of a first-time home
buyer in America?
Secretary Turner. Forty.
Mr. Torres. Okay, and suppose that buyer takes out a 50-
year mortgage. How old would that buyer be at the end of the
loan?
Secretary Turner. Ninety.
Mr. Torres. Ninety. Okay. What is the average life
expectancy in the United States?
Secretary Turner. You tell me. I think it is around 77 for
men.
Mr. Torres. Seventy-eight. So under Donald Trump's vision
of a 50-year mortgage, the typical first-time home buyer would
not live long enough to fully own their home, dying 12 years
before the mortgage matures. In Donald Trump's America,
mortgages would have longer life expectancies than first-time
home buyers.
Is it generally true in mortgage markets that longer loan
terms carry higher interest rates?
Secretary Turner. Mr. Torres, the 50-year mortgage was an
idea that was presented. I do not believe that it is a----
Mr. Torres. That is not responsive to the question I just
asked. I am asking, is it generally true in mortgage markets
that longer loan terms carry higher interest rates? It is a yes
or no question.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, I believe that is true.
Mr. Torres. Yes. So by way of example----
Secretary Turner. The 50-year mortgage----
Mr. Torres. By way of example--let me finish my--you
answered my question.
So by way of example, a 30-year mortgage is typically
offered at a higher interest rate than a 15-year mortgage,
correct?
Secretary Turner. No.
Mr. Torres. A 30-year mortgage does not have a higher
interest rate than a 15-year mortgage?
Secretary Turner. It depends on the lender, sir.
Mr. Torres. What is the existing--what is the average rate
for a 30-year mortgage at the moment?
Secretary Turner. Right now, I believe it is 5.8 percent.
Mr. Torres. According to the Freddie Mac survey, as of
January 15, 2026, the average rate is 6.06 percent. What is the
average rate for a 15-year mortgage?
Secretary Turner. I believe the 30-year is at 5.8 percent,
sir. I can get the average on the----
Mr. Torres. The Freddie Mac survey says the 15-year is 5.38
percent. So that is a difference of 68 basis points between a
30-year mortgage and a 50-year mortgage.
Secretary Turner. Mr. Torres, this is----
Mr. Torres. Congressman Torres.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. a housing affordability
hearing, so if we can get to that part, I----
Mr. Torres. I mean, homeownership is relevant to housing
affordability, right? Interest rates are relevant to housing
affordability.
Secretary Turner. The interest rates have come down since
we have come into----
Mr. Torres. Whether you are in a lifetime of debt because
you are paying off a 15-year mortgage is relevant to housing
affordability.
Secretary Turner. Interest rates were at an all-time high--
--
Mr. Torres. You need to probably define what affordability
means to you.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. and now they are lower. I
think we can agree on that. They are lower.
Mr. Torres. You can learn about testing and about
affordability.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Rose, you are recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Rose. Thank you, Chairman Hill, and thank you, Ranking
Member Waters, for holding this important hearing, and thank
you to Secretary Turner for being here with us today.
Secretary Turner, our bipartisan Housing for the 21st
Century Act, which this committee advanced in December,
includes my Housing Supply Expansion Act of 2025. This
legislation would finally remove the outdated Federal chassis
requirement that has long driven up the price of manufactured
homes and limited innovation in the sector.
You and I have spoken about this. You spent nine seasons in
the NFL, so you know how one bad rule can handcuff good teams.
The Federal requirement for a permanent chassis is a bit like
the NFL's new onside kick rules. Everyone knows they do not
work. They were meant to improve safety, but now teams have
almost no chance of recovering the ball. You can imagine the
frustration. Coaches still have creative ideas, players still
have the skill, but the rule book itself makes success almost
impossible. That is where we are with this outdated statutory
requirement. Everyone recognizes it is slowing down innovation
and driving up costs, but until Congress changes the rule book,
no one can adapt.
Can you explain how removing this statutory chassis
requirement would help modernize manufactured housing, lower
costs, and expand home ownership opportunities for many
Americans?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman Rose.
As you know, 22 million Americans live in manufactured
housing across our country currently. Removing this permanent
chassis rule will help in the flexibility and the efficiency of
building manufactured housing, which will be a great help in
making up the gap in affordable housing in our country. It will
streamline the process. It will make building more efficient,
cheaper, and get to market quicker. We are obviously in great
support of removing the permanent chassis rule.
Mr. Rose. Thank you. I hope we can get that across the
finish line along with all of the other great ideas that were a
part of that legislation.
Secretary Turner--and I hope the Senate will get off their
butts, as I have been saying recently, and get that legislation
across the finish line.
Secretary Turner, while modernizing the chassis standards
is a crucial step, manufactured housing's potential goes far
beyond that single issue. After 4 years of the Biden
Administration's failed housing policies, families across the
country are still struggling with sky-high costs and limited
options to achieve home ownership. Could you speak more broadly
about the role manufactured housing can play in expanding
access to affordable home ownership?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. When you think about
manufactured housing, it is not the model--excuse me--the
mobile homes of old. Manufactured housing today is very modern,
very well built, and has extra great amenities. We had our
Innovative Housing Showcase here on the National Mall, which
you know, sir, and so many people came and showed creative
ideas when it pertains to manufactured housing.
When you build manufactured housing it also is cost-
efficient. It costs less to build, almost half the price of a
single-family house as we know it in our country today and so
this gives opportunity to more Americans to become homeowners.
So I believe that the manufactured housing industry plays a big
role in addressing this housing affordability issue in our
country.
Mr. Rose. Thank you. Could not agree more.
Secretary Turner, under the Biden Administration, HUD
imposed mandatory minimum energy efficiency standards for
multifamily housing that would have added significant
construction costs without meaningful benefits. You have
delayed implementation and are reviewing whether to rescind
these requirements altogether. How much will eliminating these
unnecessary Biden-era energy mandates reduce construction costs
and help increase affordable housing production?
Secretary Turner. Well, yes, sir. Anything we can do to
take down the cost of building multifamily or single-family
construction will help us in this housing affordability issue.
These energy standards--many builders today and developers are
already building toward these energy standards, so it is a
duplicative process which is very burdensome. It adds about
$30,000 per project or per house that is being built. So taking
this down is something that is going to help us to reduce the
cost and increase the supply of housing in our country.
Mr. Rose. Thank you, Secretary. I really appreciate our
recent conversation, and I have been impressed thus far with
the actions you have taken to support homeowners in communities
across the country. I am eager to show you the impact of HUD's
work in Tennessee's Sixth Congressional District. Scheduling
permitting, would you be willing to visit my district and meet
with local stakeholders, tour housing projects, and discuss
ways HUD can better serve our communities in Tennessee's Sixth
District?
Secretary Turner. Sir, thank you, Congressman Rose, for
that invitation. I really appreciate it.
Mr. Rose. Thank you.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Massachusetts.
Ms. Pressley, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Secretary, it is unfortunate, unacceptable, and deeply
disappointing that it took over a year for you to come before
this committee, but you are here now. I do not have a lot of
time, and I have a lot of ground to cover, so let us get to it,
and please try to answer as succinctly as possible.
Since Donald Trump came into office, how many people at
HUD, Mr. Secretary, have been fired, laid off, or otherwise
left the agency? Just the total number, please.
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, about 2,400 people took the DRP.
Ms. Pressley. I am sorry. The total number at HUD who have
been fired, laid off, or otherwise left the agency.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. 2,400 people voluntarily took
the DRP.
Ms. Pressley. That is complete--Okay. You are not answering
the question. I am going to reclaim my time. So I will just
tell you.
Secretary Turner. Okay.
Ms. Pressley. The point is, when you take a hatchet to the
infrastructure of our Federal Government, it is a tremendous
disservice, not only to those dedicated, hardworking employees,
those patriots who could have gone anywhere with their talents,
but they love their country and they want to be in service to
their country. It is incredibly disruptive to their livelihoods
and their lives.
It is not efficient because it is a disservice to the
people and the communities that they serve, people like in my
district, the Massachusetts Seventh, Claire Bergstresser, who
was fired from the HUD Region 1 office, which devastated her,
but it means that the good work that she was doing is going
undone. So these firings--these unlawful firings--greatly
reduce HUD's ability to fulfill its mission.
So let me just build on that a little bit. On that note,
Secretary Turner, for the record, can you tell us what is HUD's
mission statement?
Secretary Turner. To provide access to quality, affordable,
safe housing and to give access to people to achieve the
American Dream of home ownership, ma'am, is our mission at HUD.
Ms. Pressley. Let me read it word for word.
The mission is to ``create strong, sustainable, inclusive
communities and quality affordable homes for all.'' That is the
mission of the Department of Housing and Urban Development.
Now, I do not have any evidence that you actually know the
mission statement because it seems you are actively undermining
it.
Since taking office, you have failed at sustainability and
paying attention to the impact of the climate crisis and
extreme temperatures.
You have failed at inclusion--again, this is the mission
statement--by gutting the Fair Housing Office that fights
against discrimination.
You are failing at addressing the affordability crisis.
So if you have even a modicum of understanding of the
mission statement, I am not sure why you are actively
undermining it, but I will go on.
Donald Trump said that the affordable crisis--affordability
crisis--is a hoax. As the Secretary of Housing, do you believe
there is a housing affordability crisis? Just yes or no in the
interest of time.
Secretary Turner. There is a housing affordability issue in
our country, yes, ma'am.
Ms. Pressley. Okay.
Secretary Turner. The President believes that as well.
Ms. Pressley. No, he said it was a hoax.
Secretary Turner. The President believes that as well, as
you see.
Ms. Pressley. Do not push propaganda. Donald Trump said the
housing affordability crisis is a hoax, and that proves he is
as clueless----
Secretary Turner. He has taken bold steps.
Ms. Pressley [continuing]. he is as clueless about what is
happening with the American people as he is cruel.
Secretary Turner. I would not say that he is clueless. He
is not clueless.
Ms. Pressley. He is as clueless as--let me move on.
Reclaiming my time.
Secretary Turner. He is well-informed.
Ms. Pressley. Reclaiming my time.
There is an affordability crisis. We are living it every
day. The median age for first-time homebuyers is 40 years old.
We are pricing out young people.
I believe your Department is completely unaware of the fact
that people in their twilight years who have given so much to
this country, we have a gray wave of homelessness that your
agency is ignoring of our elders.
Now, look, at your Senate confirmation hearing you talked
about your football career and how you would often watch the
film of your games to see what you are actually doing well. I
have seen this film, and you are failing.
I feel bad for you. The Republicans put you in this role.
Secretary Turner. I am not sure which film you are
watching.
Ms. Pressley. Excuse me, you are interrupting.
I am watching the film in real time, what is happening, as
you gut HUD and undermine and fail to meet the mission.
Secretary Turner. We have not gutted HUD.
Ms. Pressley. I did not ask you a question. I am offering a
statement of fact, in my opinion.
You have been put in a position with no qualifications, no
experience, and no training and they are using you. They are
using you as the poster child of their anti-DEI crusade, and
you are letting them. It is shameful and it is painful for me
to watch.
The Department of Housing and Urban Development is too
important to be mismanaged under your leadership, or lack
thereof.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
Secretary Turner. Mr. Chairman, for the record, no one is
using me. I wanted to be here.
Chairman Hill. I thank the gentleman.
The gentlewoman's time is expired.
Ms. Waters. Are you going to give additional--excuse me,
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Hill. It is the gentleman from Montana's time.
The gentleman from Montana, Mr. Downing, you are recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Downing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to start first by applauding the work of this
committee to overwhelmingly pass the Housing for the 21st
Century Act, which smartly targets much of the overregulation
that has driven up the cost of housing over many years.
There is more we can do, and I hope we take it up on the
House floor very quickly.
Secretary Turner, thank you so much. It is good to see you
again. Thank you for being here.
My first question focuses on an important constituency of
mine, Indian Country Tribes.
Indian Country faces many unique challenges that make
housing affordability more difficult to tackle than in other
communities. In Montana, we are home to 12 federally recognized
Indian Tribes and 7 Tribal reservations.
The primary law governing Federal support for Indian
housing is the Native American Housing Assistance and Self-
Determination Act of 1996, or NAHASDA. This authorizes the
Indian Housing Block Grant, among other critical programs, and
the authorization for these programs expired over a decade ago.
The law has not been updated since 2008.
Overall, do you believe this law has been successful in
improving housing conditions in Indian Country?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman. I
appreciate you.
As you know, I have traveled to many Tribal nations around
our country, and we do support NAHASDA through our ONAP office
to make sure that Tribes keep their sovereignty and
flexibility. We are in full support of NAHASDA.
Mr. Downing. Do you believe that Congress should
reauthorize this?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I look forward to working with
you and this committee on the reauthorization of NAHASDA.
Mr. Downing. Are there specific changes that should be made
to these programs to make them more effective?
Secretary Turner. We are happy to take those ideas and
suggestions from you, sir, and your team, to bring to our ONAP
office to make sure that we are implementing them
appropriately.
Mr. Downing. Well, thank you. I look forward to working
with you to make sure that our Tribal communities are not left
out of these discussions about housing affordability. So thank
you.
Secretary Turner. You are welcome.
Mr. Downing. Moving on. Another issue that I hear
frequently from many of my constituents, from housing
developers in Montana, is the Build America, Buy America, or
BABA, on the cost of housing. Not only does it slow down lead
time but also increases costs.
BABA was included in the 2021 Infrastructure Investment and
Jobs Act, and it requires federally funded infrastructure
projects to contain materials made in the U.S., specifically
toward infrastructure. Yet in 2023, HUD issued guidance saying
it also applies to HUD-funded housing projects.
Do you think it makes sense to apply BABA to HUD programs?
Secretary Turner. Sir, we are looking at this, as you know,
with BABA as it pertains to HUD to provide flexibility to
certain projects in certain places around our country.
Again, we are happy to discuss ideas and strategies from
your team and others to make sure that people are receiving the
flexibility that they need as it pertains to building.
Mr. Downing. Well, I look forward to having that discussion
with you and hopefully revisiting BABA on the guidance from HUD
to see if this really should be applied here or was
specifically meant to apply to infrastructure.
On that, Mr. Secretary, with my remaining time, is there
anything else that you would like to discuss about what HUD is
doing under your leadership?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I appreciate that.
Contrary to the belief of some that we have talked to this
morning, we are very laser focused at HUD in helping the
housing affordability crisis and tearing down regulations and
streamlining our processes and making sure that we are
upholding the Fair Housing Act to make sure that we are serving
the American people, to make sure that our homeless neighbors
are taken care of, treated, and returned to lives with full
sustainability. I am laser focused on that, and we will
continue to do that.
Thank you for your question.
Mr. Downing. Well, thank you very much for this. I look
forward to working with you.
On that, Mr. Chair, I yield the remainder of my time.
The Chairman. The gentleman yields back.
The chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from Texas.
Ms. Garcia, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This hearing, of course, has been long overdue. I think
that we need to remind the Secretary that housing is a human
right. When you have a roof over your head, you have space for
things. You have space for your family and those around you.
To begin with, I also want to remind the Secretary of some
of the things that HUD has done. Countless staff members and
public servants who run important housing programs have been
terminated. Multiple pending investigations, including fair
housing and civil rights enforcement actions, have been paused
or delayed. The Equal Access Rule is being undermined, leaving
women, children, and LGBTQ+ individuals and others most
vulnerable to discrimination.
You, Mr. Secretary, also reportedly allowed DOGE to gain
undeterred access to personal identifiable information. Most
recently, you announced a notice of proposed rulemaking which
proposes to specifically weaken disparate impact.
Mr. Turner, I am just completely baffled by your nonanswers
and avoiding of any of the comments and questions that some of
my colleagues have answered.
I am a former judge. I have listened to many, many
witnesses, and I, frankly, have never seen a witness so evasive
and, frankly, in some cases disrespectful to the person asking
the question. I think that is beneath your office. I am so
frustrated that I know I am going to ask you a question that
you are probably not going to answer, but I am going to ask you
anyway.
How in the world do you really think that immigration
impacts housing supply and drives up costs? Is that one of
these phantom theories you keep talking about?
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am, it is not a phantom theory.
Ms. Garcia. Well, name some facts.
Secretary Turner. It is data.
Ms. Garcia. Tell me the facts to support your theory.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
So out of the millions of undocumented, unchecked, and
unvetted people that came across our border, 59 percent of
these families use one or more of the welfare programs in this
country.
Ms. Garcia. Well, tell me the basis of that comment. What
is the fact behind that?
Secretary Turner. It costs us $42 billion a year.
Ms. Garcia. No, tell me--give me your source, sir.
All of these things seem to be coming out of the book of
Trump lies and myths.
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, everyone is talking about data.
Everyone is talking about reports, and I am doing the same
thing.
Ms. Garcia. So I am so frustrated with you, sir. If you are
not going to answer my question, let us just move on. All
right? Let us move on by yielding the rest of my time to my
Ranking Member Waters.
Ms. Waters. Thank you very much.
I would like to know, last year you cut 780 staff, and your
2026 budget proposed cutting $34 billion by eliminating entire
housing programs, like Home Investment Partnerships (HOME),
CDBG, housing counseling, all rental assistance and funding for
the homeless. Is that correct?
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, 2,400 people at HUD took the
voluntary DRP.
Ms. Waters. I did not ask about--I do not want to ask
about--I do not ask about any voluntary 2,400 people left.
How many people did you and Elon Musk fire?
Secretary Turner. Twenty-four hundred people took the DRP.
Ms. Waters. Did Elon Musk come to your agency? Did you work
with him on the interviews that he did and the firing that he
did?
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, Elon Musk was not allowed to do
any firing at HUD. Twenty-four hundred people took the DRP.
Ms. Waters. I did not ask you that. I asked you if he came
to your agency and assisted in the firing of some of the 780
people.
Anyhow, you are not going to answer that but let me just
ask you, when I compare that--you are going to move to a new
location. Is that right?
Secretary Turner. Yes.
Ms. Waters. Do you have a private gym for you and your
family in that construction?
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am.
Ms. Waters. Who is it for?
Secretary Turner. The HUD family.
Ms. Waters. Are you saying that your personal family will
not be allowed to use the gym?
Secretary Turner. You are misconstruing a rumor. The gym is
not for my personal family.
Ms. Waters. I want to know whether or not you have
indicated----
Secretary Turner. It is for our HUD family.
Ms. Waters. Reclaiming my time.
I want to know whether or not you have indicated that it
must be for your private family also.
Secretary Turner. No.
Ms. Waters. Thank you very much.
I want to understand some of this construction.
Do you have your own private elevator?
Secretary Turner. I have an elevator at HUD right now.
Ms. Waters. Do you have your own private elevator designed
for this building?
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am.
Ms. Waters. Thank you very much.
I also want to know, do you have a new expansive dining
room that you have helped to design that you would like to
have?
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am. My current office has a dining
room, and it already----
Ms. Waters. I did not ask about your current office. I
asked about the new office. You are very clever in the way that
you try and----
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am.
Ms. Waters. Reclaiming my time.
Secretary Turner. There is no dining room.
Ms. Waters. You cannot say anything. Reclaiming my time. Do
not speak when I am speaking.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman from Texas' time has
expired.
The chair now recognizes the gentleman from South Carolina.
Mr. Timmons, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank the Secretary for being here today.
Let us start by clearing up some things that were just
talked about.
Mr. Secretary, if 8 million people entered this country
illegally in 2024 and we only brought 2 million houses online,
is that going to increase the cost of housing?
Secretary Turner. Yes.
Mr. Timmons. Okay. So the Biden Administration had
unbridled illegal immigration. Tens of millions of people
entered this country, and we were unable to keep up with the
housing supply, which caused prices to go up, not to mention
the fact that the Democrats spent $7 trillion during COVID,
which caused inflation, which caused interest rates to go up.
So millions of Americans just like me, instead of having a
2.3 percent mortgage, like I did a year ago, now have a 6.8
percent 5-year adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM). I cannot even
get a 30-year fixed because that would have been 8.5.
So the cost of my mortgage has gone up more than double
because of the policies of the previous administration. That is
exactly the result of Democrat policies, and it has adversely
impacted millions of Americans. We are doing everything we can
to get back to balance--get back to balance.
Mr. Secretary, do you think that if somebody was
considering coming to work at HUD that they would want a perk
like a place to exercise before or after work?
Secretary Turner. Yes. We have many people that use the gym
currently at our building.
Mr. Timmons. It is crazy, Congress actually has one of
those too. We have a staff gym, we have a Members gym, House
and Senate side. So it is almost like exercise is important,
and it is something that people expect.
So I appreciate that you have provided that for your
Federal employees. I think it is very appropriate.
Secretary Turner. Yes. I think good healthcare is good. It
is amazing how people will take rumors and run with them.
Our HUD family has a gym right now. In our new building,
our HUD family will have a gym, and I believe that is a
tremendous asset for our people: healthy body, healthy mind,
productive work.
Mr. Timmons. I love it. I am going to go to my prepared
remarks now. Thank you.
The timing of today's hearing could not be more important.
As both the House and the Senate work to advance serious
housing packages aimed at addressing housing affordability for
the first time in my congressional career, your insight is both
timely and greatly appreciated.
I also want to thank you and your team for carrying out the
President's agenda by modernizing outdated programs and
lowering barriers to local investment in housing.
Communities across the country rely on HUD not only to
address long-term housing affordability, but also to help
families recover when disaster strikes.
In my district in the upstate of South Carolina, Hurricane
Helene caused significant damage to homes and infrastructure.
Families and local leaders are still working to rebuild in many
situations.
Effective disaster recovery depends on getting the policy
environment right. When Federal programs are overly complex or
slow to deploy, rebuilding is delayed and communities are left
waiting far too long for help.
Simplifying requirements, improving transparency, and
providing greater flexibility can make a real difference for
States and local governments working to deliver assistance
quickly and responsibly.
Mr. Secretary, how will HUD's streamlined CDBG disaster
recovery guidance help States and local governments move more
quickly from a disaster declaration to actually delivering
rebuilding assistance to homeowners and renters?
Secretary Turner. Thank you, Mr. Timmons.
As you know, we put out $12 billion in CDBG-DR this year,
and streamlining these processes will get the funds and the
resources out the door quicker and more appropriately to the
people that are actually needing them, people that are
rebuilding their lives because of a natural disaster.
During the Biden Administration, this was not the case but
during this administration, at HUD, we are getting these funds
out the door to the people who really need them.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you for that.
As HUD works with grantees to implement these changes, how
will the Department ensure that smaller or rural communities
with limited administrative capacity can fully take advantage
of simplified documentation requirements and added flexibility
without being slowed down by compliance uncertainty or Federal
red tape?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
I think our universal notice will help in that, that
everybody will know exactly what information is required of
them.
Mr. Timmons. Great. I really appreciate that.
I think that we are moving in the right direction. Interest
rates are coming down. Inflation is coming down. We are growing
the economy.
Border security has stopped the unbridled flow of illegal
immigrants, and we are addressing the million-plus people in
this country illegally that have had all of their due process,
that have committed violent crimes, rape, murder, human
trafficking, arms trafficking. These are the people that we are
currently making sure leave our country to make our citizenry
safe.
So we are moving in the right direction. I appreciate all
your hard work.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
I recognize the ranking member for a unanimous consent.
Ms. Waters. Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to
clarify that our families cannot use the Member gym or the
staff gym. Is that correct?
Chairman Hill. That is certainly my understanding, is that
the gym in the Capitol complex is for Members, and there is
also a workout facility for staff members.
Mr. Timmons. Mr. Chairman, that is not correct.
Chairman Hill. Without----
Mr. Timmons. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Hill. The gentleman from South Carolina.
Mr. Timmons. Spouses of Members of Congress are allowed to
use the Members gym.
Chairman Hill. Okay.
Mr. Timmons. We are good. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman yields back.
The gentlewoman from Georgia, Ms. Williams, you are
recognized.
Ms. Williams of Georgia. Thank you, Chairman Hill and
Ranking Member Waters, for this hearing today. Housing is
something that I have been wanting to talk about.
So welcome, Secretary Turner. We have been waiting for you.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Ms. Williams of Georgia. I am glad to hear the
conversation--Mr. Timmons has left now--but around exercise,
because I hope that means he will sign onto my Prioritizing
Lifestyle and Activity for Youth (PLAY) Act, which is
bipartisan legislation to make sure that kids can get exercise
in school. I just wanted to throw that in there.
Let us get back to housing, because so many Americans are
hurting right now, and they are feeling the affordability
crisis, which is not a hoax. When you are looking at your
monthly check and you have more month than money, that is not a
hoax. That is real life and that is what so many Americans are
facing right now.
One issue that is kind of abstract and a lot of people do
not think about is thinking about home ownership and homes that
have been in your family for generations.
Chairman Hill, I know that you have heard me talk about
this many times, but I want to talk about how most families,
their home and their land will be their largest asset that they
will ever own.
Unfortunately, many low-and middle-income families have not
been able to extract, build wealth, or even sell the property
since they cannot even determine or resolve the ownership,
given the absence of clear titles.
Are you familiar with heirs' property, Secretary?
Secretary Turner. Heirs' property?
Ms. Williams of Georgia. Yes.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Williams of Georgia. So that is what I want to talk
about. You being from Texas, Texas is one of the States that
has a lot of undocumented heirs' properties on the books,
Georgia, so many States throughout the South.
Unfortunately, many families do not know which heirs may
have an interest in the property that is being passed down.
Land or homes in families are often passed down without a will,
leaving unclear ownership. That is heirs' property.
Without clear titles, families face legal challenges,
displacement, or loss of property and ultimately a loss of
generational wealth in underserved families.
Fannie Mae studied heirs' property and estimated more than
$32 billion--with a B, Mr. Secretary--worth of property in 44
States and Washington, DC, has been impacted by heirship
issues. In my home State alone, Georgia has more than $408
million in heirs' property. Without wills and estate planning,
it is next to impossible to secure wealth from generation to
generation.
Secretary Turner, understanding that these tangled titles
can be extremely complicated to sort out, what steps has HUD
taken under your leadership to protect home ownership and the
realization of wealth building for families that own heirs'
property?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
I believe that, as I said before, achieving the dream of
home ownership is a great priority of ours.
The strategies and ideas that you have as it pertains to
heirs' property, we are happy to work with you and your team to
hear what you are proposing and what you want to do but I do
believe that protecting property is of utmost importance. So I
am in lockstep with you with that.
Ms. Williams of Georgia. Thank you so much.
This is bipartisan legislation that Ranking Member Waters
has been supportive of me getting through, and Chairman Hill as
well. We are looking forward to getting this marked up and
across the finish line.
Now I want to turn to something where people do not
actually own their homes. This is the living conditions of
constituents that people in public housing in Atlanta are
facing today, particularly a story that has been in the news a
lot, Forest Cove community.
Are you familiar with the Forest Cove property in Atlanta?
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am.
Ms. Williams of Georgia. It is one that there is actually a
lawsuit right now against HUD and against the landlords and the
owners of this property because residents were forced to live
in unsafe conditions, the city of Atlanta worked with the
residents to get them moved out into housing that was
acceptable.
They faced holes in their floors and walls, unrepaired fire
damage, rats and other pests before the apartments were
ultimately condemned and eventually torn down.
I understand that HUD has issued an official debarment
order to Millennia's CEO and Millennia Housing prohibiting them
from participating in any new business with HUD, its Office of
Multifamily Housing Programs, including the Section 8 program,
for 5 years, ending on December 13, 2028.
It does not affect Millennia's existing properties and
contracts with HUD, and that seems unacceptable to me. When I
see children, seniors living in these conditions in Atlanta,
Georgia, that they just need some extra assistance, and they
are counting on us to hold these bad actors accountable.
So we need to do something about this, and it needs to
happen now, because people are suffering now, Mr. Secretary.
How can you help with this?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. Congresswoman Williams,
please allow us to work with your team so we get more
information on this Millennia. I am familiar with them, but get
more information on this property you are telling us about,
because people do need to be held accountable according to the
living conditions that people are in.
Ms. Williams of Georgia. So Millennia has properties all
over the country, not just in Atlanta. Again, their existing
contracts are not impacted.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
Ms. Williams of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Secretary, I will follow up because this is too
important to the people that are living in these conditions.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota, the
majority whip of the House, Mr. Emmer.
Mr. Emmer, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you, Chairman Hill and thanks for holding
this critically important hearing today.
Secretary Turner, it is great to see you again.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Emmer. Housing affordability is one of the most
pressing challenges facing Minnesota families. Across urban,
suburban, and rural communities, families are being squeezed by
rising home prices and a housing supply that simply has not
kept pace with demand.
Outdated, burdensome Federal regulation, slow permitting
processes, rigid zoning laws and financing barriers are all
factors that make it more difficult and expensive to meet
America's housing needs.
President Trump has made affordability a central focus of
his Presidency, reversing the failed policies of the Biden
Administration and cutting red tape that was only increasing
costs and fueling runaway inflation.
By updating outdated programs and removing regulatory
roadblocks rather than relying solely on direct Federal
spending, we will allow this country to meet its housing
demands and make housing affordable again for hardworking
Americans.
Mr. Secretary, HUD has a responsibility not only to expand
access to housing but also to ensure that taxpayer dollars are
properly safeguarded. My home State of Minnesota has become a
national example of the chaos that occurs when oversight
collapses and incompetence surges in a Governor's mansion.
Following the uncovering of a massive $9 billion welfare
fraud scheme that went unaddressed under Governor Tim Walz's
watch, you, Mr. Secretary, proactively deployed HUD
investigators to Minnesota to provide much-needed fiscal
oversight. On behalf of law-abiding, taxpaying Minnesotans, I
want to thank you for taking decisive action where our Governor
has failed.
It has been reported that HUD paid out nearly $85 million
in fraudulent Federal housing assistance payments to Minnesota
during the last year of former President Biden's Presidency. Is
that correct, Secretary Turner?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Those are the findings.
Mr. Emmer. It is my understanding that of this total, half
a million dollars was paid out to dead Minnesota residents
while another quarter of a million dollars went to individuals
whose Social Security numbers could not be verified. Is that
correct?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Emmer. When we say that individuals whose Social
Security numbers could not be verified, Mr. Secretary, what
exactly do you mean?
Secretary Turner. Well, when you think about it, there may
be numbers missing. There may be smudges on the number.
Oftentimes, that means that they are here illegally.
Mr. Emmer. All right. So, likely, they are illegal aliens
that have taken advantage of the system.
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Emmer. In other words, as American families struggle to
afford housing and keep up with everyday costs, the Federal
Government was providing assistance to those here illegally,
taking resources away from the citizens that these programs are
actually created to help.
It is abundantly clear to me that those who line their
pockets by defrauding the American people, along with those who
did nothing to stop it, must be held accountable.
How can HUD hold these individuals' feet to the fire and
potentially recoup these fraudulent payments?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you.
As we go through this analysis, continued analysis and
investigation, we will use the full extent of the law to
enforce the law and to bring the proper and appropriate
punishment to those who have defrauded the American people.
Mr. Emmer. What additional authorities, Mr. Secretary, do
HUD have to examine other areas where Governor Walz and
Minnesota's attorney general, Keith Ellison, have been
negligent in their stewardship of the people of Minnesota?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
We will continue to investigate. We have actually boots on
the ground now, as you know, in Minnesota.
Minnesota receives about $150 million in housing
assistance, so we want to make sure that those funds are being
used appropriately. We also have partnerships across the entire
Federal Government, and in particular agencies, that we can
utilize to make sure people are being held accountable.
Mr. Emmer. This is the new fair housing investigation that
you are engaged in?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We do have a task force to do
so.
Mr. Emmer. I see my time is coming to an end. So I would
like to quickly highlight the Securing Facilities for Mental
Health Services Act, which I partnered with Representative
Torres to reintroduce last week.
We have a mental health crisis in this country, all while
having a shortage of care facilities. Under current law,
inpatient psychiatric hospitals are prohibited from accessing
mortgage assistance through HUD's Section 242 program, since
they treat patients over an extended period of time.
Our Securing Facilities for Mental Health Services Act
reverses this prohibition, alleviating the inpatient bed
shortage across the country, and encourages the expansion of
psychiatric inpatient hospitals.
Mr. Secretary, can I get your assurance that we will work
together on this much-needed legislation so we can assure that
Americans with mental health challenges are able to receive the
treatment they deserve and need?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, happy to work with you.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time is expired.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from California.
Mr. Liccardo, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Liccardo. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Secretary Turner, thank you for your testimony. As I have
heard from your testimony so far, you strongly agree with the
notion that the key to tackling our housing affordability
crisis, one that tens of millions of families struggle with
every day to pay rent, is really boosting supply.
I think you cited a number estimate between four and seven
million homes. Is that right?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liccardo. As we look at other places throughout the
country and even outside this country that have found creative
ways to boost supply, look at cities like Vancouver, where we
have seen a third of the single-family parcels now have
backyard homes or ADUs, accessory dwelling units.
We in the city of San Jose, where I was mayor, attempted to
tackle one aspect of this challenge by helping more homeowners
become home providers, by streamlining the permitting process,
working with some folks in the private sector who are building
prefabricated modular units, enabling homeowners to get a
permit in a day by going online.
We found a dramatic expansion of interest from homeowners.
We went from about 15 permits a year that were issued for those
kinds of accessory dwelling units, backyard homes, to more than
800 within just a couple of years.
Do you agree that this might be a useful focus area for us
as we are trying to expand housing supply in various ways?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We have had many conversations
about the ADUs from HUD's standpoint and providing flexibility
with that.
I think we like that the ADUs are attached and not detached
and that they are not too prescriptive, that we can support
this but happy to hear from you and your team. I know our team
has been talking about this in our Housing Office.
Mr. Liccardo. I appreciate that and that interest.
What we found in the city of San Jose was although we were
seeing a huge increase in the number of permits that homeowners
were getting, we would go back after a couple years to figure
out if the units were actually getting built.
Maybe only--and this is anecdotal--roughly half the folks
that we were surveying were saying they were actually getting
units built because they could not get financing. A lot of
modest-income homeowners could not get a bank to lend to them.
They could not get a second.
So we have been exploring options around that. I introduced
a bill, H.R. 4568, the Supporting Upgraded Property Projects
and Lending for Yards (SUPPLY) Act and I would love to engage
with your team on that. I know we have reached out.
The concern, of course, is how we can, without any cost to
the taxpayers, be able to enable FHA-insured second loans to be
able to expand opportunities for homeowners to become home
providers.
Is that something that your team would be willing to work
with us on?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We are happy to look at that.
As you said, any time--our number one deal is to make sure
the FHA is secure, make sure it is solvent, make sure we are
not disrupting the housing market, as you know, but happy to
explore these ideas with you and your team, sir.
Mr. Liccardo. I appreciate that concern.
I understand that in December of last year they looked at
the FHA's Insurance Fund Cap Ratio, which I understand is
legally required to be 2 percent. It is now nearly 11.5
percent.
So that Insurance Fund is in pretty good shape. Is that
fair to say?
Secretary Turner. It is.
Mr. Liccardo. Okay. That is good news. So I think there is
opportunity for us to look at these kinds of innovative
approaches.
The last area I just want to explore, I appreciate that the
New Markets Tax Credit is now permanent. I think that was
important and one of the few things in H.R. 1 that I supported.
I appreciate the intention and efforts of the opportunity
zones to revitalize development and ultimately jobs and
opportunities in many low-income communities but, as you know,
many downtowns in large cities throughout the country actually
do not qualify. They do not have the census tracts within those
downtowns to be able to use New Markets Tax Credits or
opportunity zones.
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Liccardo. Given the very high rate of office vacancy,
we have right now, more than 19 percent throughout the country,
do you agree that there might need to be opportunities for us
to find ways to convert some of that vacant office space to
housing even outside of those opportunity zones?
Secretary Turner. Opportunity zones, as you said, have been
very impactful in our country as it pertains to revitalizing
communities and building new housing, creating new jobs.
This idea of turning commercial spots into housing is
something that I have heard of, something I have talked about
with others, and I think it is something that we need to
explore. I have heard that there are not as many people that
utilize commercial to turn them into housing.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired.
Secretary Turner. It does not mean that we cannot do it but
happy to talk about that, sir.
Mr. Liccardo. I look forward to that. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. The chair recognizes the gentleman from
Wisconsin, Mr. Steil, who is the chair of our Digital Assets,
Financial Technology, and AI Subcommittee.
Mr. Steil. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here.
Housing costs are a huge challenge. We have seen the prices
go up. There is a good AI study that shows we are effectively 6
million in undersupply. If you look at the supply and demand
curve, we know we have to get the supply up in the United
States to bring down housing costs.
One of the biggest drivers of getting those costs down and
increasing supply is the regulatory red tape. This committee
has moved through, I think, transformative legislation in that
regard. I want to come back to that at the end.
I want to talk about one of the challenges that we have
seen in HUD in the previous administration, in particular as it
relates to Milwaukee in my home State of Wisconsin.
As you may well be aware, the housing authority of the city
of Milwaukee had misappropriated $2.8 million in funds that
were supposed to be used for rental assistance. Instead, those
funds went to a whole host of other things, such as salaries
and different other types of payments, and it put the financial
structure of the Milwaukee Housing Authority in jeopardy.
I know you, as you have come in as Secretary, you have been
engaged in this, working on corrective actions. Is there any
update or status that you can provide us with as we are working
to make sure that is fixed?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I know that our team has been
working on this and should have been working with your team. I
am happy to get you that updated real-time data as soon as we
get done here, sir.
Mr. Steil. I think that would be helpful. I think it is
really important that we work to root out waste, fraud, and
abuse.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steil. HUD, as you know, is an absolutely essential
agency. We want it to work for those it was designed for, but
not to be misappropriating those funds. So I appreciate that
and I look forward to that report.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steil. Another comment before I try to close out on the
regulation side.
The Native American Housing Assistance and Self-
Determination Act is up for reauthorization. That is a really
big deal to Native American communities in my home State of
Wisconsin. It is important to Native American communities
across the United States.
Are you committed to working with us in reauthorizing that
program and making needed reforms to it?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
You know that I have been in great support of our Tribes
across the country. I have traveled to many in the first Trump
Administration and this administration. So to keep their
sovereignty and flexibility through NAHASDA, through our ONAP
office, we are happy to work with you and your team, sir.
Mr. Steil. I appreciate your commitment to it. Getting to
those locations onsite, as you have done before and I know as
you have engaged in your role as Secretary, is really
important. There are some unique aspects in our Native American
housing legislation and getting that firsthand understanding is
really important.
Let me close out on the regulatory side, which is where I
began my remarks.
There is a real need to reduce the regulatory red tape. You
have commented on it in your testimony. You have commented on
it earlier today.
I just want to give you another minute to talk about what
we should be looking at here to make sure that we are forcing
those local municipalities and particular State regulations to
get themselves in line where we can close the gap on the 6
million undersupply.
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Steil. I will yield to you for your additional comments
on that.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
I mean, I do not have much to add to that. I would say, the
more that we have members of this committee talking to their
constituents, talking to local leadership about removing the
regulatory barriers to housing affordability, to building
housing, the construction of housing, development of
communities, and restoring that back to them, the more we can
talk to them and encourage them and guide them through that,
the better.
I believe as the regulatory environment comes down, the
supply will go up, and cost will come down so that more
Americans can actually purchase a home.
Mr. Steil. Getting that supply up is absolutely critical.
In our final minute, you have a lot of background in
opportunity zones. As we look at that legislation, how is HUD
prioritizing its work with opportunity zones to provide better
outcomes to communities?
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Well, you know during the first Trump Administration HUD
led an opportunity zone initiative working across 15 domestic
agencies. It was a very impactful and transformative policy.
So we are looking forward to opportunity zones being made
permanent starting in January 2027. Next year--or this year,
actually, the summer this year--Governors will begin to pick
out opportunity zone census tracts.
I hope they are very thoughtful and working with local
experts, leaders to make sure that the zones we pick will
impact the communities.
Mr. Steil. Secretary Turner, thanks for your work. This is
a huge area of concern for Americans. I appreciate your
service.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. The chair recognizes the gentleman from
Louisiana. Mr. Fields, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Fields. Let me first thank the chair and the ranking
member for holding this hearing.
Let me thank you also, Mr. Secretary, for being here.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fields. Since taking office, you have terminated
hundreds of HUD employees and announced plans to close field
offices in 34 States, including the District of Columbia. This
includes also a New Orleans field office in my home State of
Louisiana.
The Housing and Community Development Act of 1987 requires
that HUD maintain at least one field office in each State.
Mr. Secretary, my question is, did HUD publish a cost-
benefit analysis before announcing these closures, as required
by law? If so, tell me about it. If not, why not?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
That field office is still open as we speak, and we want to
utilize our field offices to serve the people around our
country.
As far as--I have heard about these slashes and cuts to
HUD's employees, and I have said it repeatedly, that we have
had about 2,400 people that have voluntarily taken a DRP.
We are very focused on our field offices and serving our
constituents in all ten regions around the country as it
pertains to HUD, sir.
Mr. Fields. Did you--according to law, you had to do a
cost-benefit analysis. Did you do a cost-benefit analysis?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We have been following the law
extensively. As I said, that field office and others are still
open to serve the people of that district.
Mr. Fields. If you may, can you provide the chair and me
with a copy of that cost-benefit analysis?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fields. I appreciate it.
Also, HUD field offices provide face-to-face to grantees,
as you know, I mean face-to-face contact and they also are
responsible for enforcing Federal statutes. So it is so
important that we have these field offices.
My next question is, on March 3, 2025, Ranking Member
Waters, myself, and 122 House Democrats sent you a letter
demanding transparency about wrongful termination of staff,
fund freezing, and DOGE involvement in HUD.
That letter, to my knowledge, received no response. Why
not?
Secretary Turner. Congressman Fields, we will make sure
that there was a response to that letter, sir. We will work
with our team to get that to you if it has not--if you have not
received it.
Mr. Fields. Yes. Also on March 17, 2025, we sent another
letter, signed by 106 Members of Congress, about the fair
housing enforcement. It took 10 months. Actually, you responded
last Friday, right before this hearing.
Do you think that HUD is beyond oversight?
Secretary Turner. No, sir. I do not believe that any agency
is beyond oversight.
Mr. Fields. Those letters that we sent to you as Members of
Congress, many of the Members sit on this committee.
Can you make sure that we have a response, that you respond
to the ranking member, to those letters that we sent to you ask
very pertinent questions about firings, about cuts? If you can
get us a response to those letters as soon as possible, I would
appreciate it.
At this time, Mr. Chairman, I yield the remaining time to
the ranking member.
Ms. Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Fields, for your
probing questions to Secretary Turner here today.
Secretary Turner, I want to go back to the new move that
you are making and ask you a few questions.
What is the cost? What is the total cost of that move?
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, what I can tell you is that it is
going to save the American taxpayers hundreds of millions of
dollars.
Ms. Waters. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not tell me
how much it is going to save. I want to know what is the cost
of the move.
The reason I am asking is because of the tremendous cuts
that you are making where consumers are going to basically
suffer. I want to know what is the total cost of the move.
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, our move will save the American
taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars.
Ms. Waters. I did not ask you what it was going to save.
Reclaiming my time.
I want to know what is the cost of the total move.
Secretary Turner. We will get the exact number to you,
ma'am, but it pales in comparison to the amount of money that
we will save.
Ms. Waters. No, no, no, no. Either you know it or you do
not or you do not want to tell me.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired. Mr.
Fields' time has expired. He yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from Indiana.
Mr. Stutzman, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Stutzman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being here.
I apologize for my voice. I was yelling a little too much
at the national championship game the other day. I know our
team put a thumping on your alma mater, but I am sure you were
rooting for the Big Ten as well, sir.
Anyway, great to have you. If you want to respond, feel
free to do so anytime.
Secretary Turner. That is all right.
Mr. Stutzman. But anyway, go IU.
In Carmel, nearly one in four single-family rentals--I am
sorry, let me back up. I missed my opening remarks here.
Last night, President Trump unveiled a much-anticipated
executive order aimed at leveling the playing field for
American homebuyers.
The executive order reflects concerns that I hear from my
constituents, who are worried that large corporations are
negatively affecting their ability to buy a home through their
participation in the single-family rental market, the single-
family market.
In fact, a 2024 Government Accountability Office (GAO)
report found that institutional investors of varying sizes make
up a large portion of the single-family rental market in many
cities across the country, including some in my home State of
Indiana.
In Carmel, Indiana, nearly one in four single-family
rentals is owned by a large corporate investor. As a result,
the city recently passed an ordinance aimed at prioritizing
single-family homes for owner-occupants, demonstrating that
this issue is being felt on the ground in our local
communities.
I believe that President Trump's willingness to confront
these realities sends a clear message that this administration
stands with homebuyers and communities first.
I know this is just a couple-hours-old executive order, but
I would be curious what your thoughts are, and can you share
with us a little bit how HUD plans to implement the executive
order?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. As you said, it is hours old.
We will be working with our Federal partners at the Treasury,
FHFA.
According to the President's executive order, we do have 30
days to work together and get back again with the President,
but the intentions are very clear that we want to make sure
that American people are able to buy homes.
Homes are for the American people, not, obviously, as the
President said, not corporations. So we are fully on board and
working with the President and across Federal agencies to make
sure that the American people can buy homes for themselves.
Mr. Stutzman. Perfect. Thank you.
I want to shift the focus a little bit to some of the good
work that this committee is doing addressing housing
affordability.
All HUD-assisted housing projects require environmental
reviews before they can move forward. For rural projects that
also utilize United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)
assistance, developers must currently undergo two separate
environmental reviews. This duplicative process creates
additional costs for developers, it prolongs the construction,
and it deters much-needed investment in affordable rural
housing.
I introduced the Streamlining Rural Housing Act, along with
Mrs. McClain, Ms. Pettersen, and Mr. Scott. It is a bipartisan
bill, and the bill would require HUD and the USDA to develop a
joint environmental review and inspection process for rural
housing projects, cutting red tape and making affordable rural
housing easier to build.
Would you agree that Congress needs to modernize and
streamline these reviews so developers can build faster and get
more Americans into homes? Cutting red tape is what we are
trying to accomplish here.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I believe that the streamlining
and modernization, as you say, will help not only get into a
home but get into a home faster and cheaper.
We have a great working relationship with USDA, as you
know. I am grateful that you all are working on that to help
the American people.
Mr. Stutzman. Great.
Also, an important part of this committee's Housing for the
21st Century Act, I know that you and President Trump are
working to make the dream of owning a home more attainable for
Americans.
In the 21st Century Act, it will serve as the cornerstone
of those efforts and yet can be another win for the American
people as well as for President Trump and Republicans. It will
be a win for all of us.
How important is it that we enact commonsense solutions
that will make it easier to build homes in this country and
really provide affordable housing for the American people?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
I think it is extremely important to enact commonsense
strategies and legislation to help the American people. I am on
board with that.
Mr. Stutzman. I appreciate the hard work that you are
doing. I also appreciate you personally and your family, your
faith, and your outspokenness, really fighting for the American
people.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stutzman. I cannot think of a better person,
spokesperson, to address what is the American Dream, and that
is to own a home.
What I see is Washington continues to pile on more and more
and making it difficult not only just to build a home but to
buy a home. I appreciate your leadership on this and anything
that I can do, I would always be happy to support you to do
that.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Colorado.
Ms. Pettersen, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Pettersen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Secretary Turner, for being with us today. It is
such a critical conversation. Housing is the number one pain
point for Coloradans and people across the country.
So while we are talking about housing, I want to focus on
one thing that really stood out for me with your testimony
today.
I appreciate you talking about your personal experience
with a family member who struggled with addiction, and you have
seen firsthand the devastating impacts that this disease can
bring.
Like you and millions of Americans, my family has also been
impacted. My mom struggled with an opioid addiction for decades
and these experiences have informed my perspective on the
support that people need to live in recovery.
This morning you said that your family supported your
homeless uncle while getting him services, and it sounds like
your family used the Housing First model.
Why are you opposed to the Housing First model for everyone
else?
Secretary Turner. Actually, we did not just house him. We
did get him wraparound services from the Veterans Affairs (VA)
and other places, faith-based organizations.
Housing First is exactly that. It focuses on just housing
people but that has been a failed policy as it pertains to
homelessness.
What I am proposing and what we think is it needs to be a
paradigm shift, not just to house people but to really put the
ax head to the root of why people are homeless. Talk about drug
addiction or any other type of addiction, alcoholism, mental
illness, and to treat these, to get them transformed and then
to get them back to a life of self-sustainability.
So not just Housing First, but to house them, and then the
wraparound services, get them fully healed, and then get people
back in that actually need the help.
So I believe that the Housing First model is a failed
model. It has not reduced homelessness.
Ms. Pettersen. Secretary Turner, I am reclaiming my time.
Secretary Turner. So there has to be a paradigm shift.
Ms. Pettersen. So your uncle was lucky enough to have
people in his life that were able to bring him in.
What option should people have when they are struggling
with addiction and they do not have anyone to turn to?
Secretary Turner. Well, I believe that this idea that we
are proposing will help people such as this.
Ms. Pettersen. I am reclaiming my time.
Secretary Turner. Okay.
Ms. Pettersen. So I have seen how critical access to
housing is for some of the most vulnerable populations. My mom
was on the wait list for years. She finally got the
notification that she was one of the lucky ones. She finally
had a voucher that was going to follow her. She had a safe
place to go. She was able to leave her abusive and unsafe
situation and have a home.
While, unfortunately, my mom did not have access to the
critical care that she needed, I can guarantee you that my mom
would not be alive today if she did not have access to housing.
So something that I am very concerned about is the
Continuum of Care Program. I have heard from people on the
ground in Colorado about the 2,200 people that are at risk of
losing housing right now because you all have upended this
program.
Right now, it is being held up in the courts, and it is the
only thing protecting the seniors who have experienced long-
term homelessness, sexual and domestic abuse survivors, single
parents trying to put a roof over their family's heads, and
also people who are struggling with addiction.
The qualifications are changing. They do not know exactly
what this is going to look like and people are deeply concerned
about what is going to happen to these individuals.
What analysis did your agency conduct to understand the
impact of the disruption on these vulnerable populations?
Secretary Turner. So, Congresswoman Pettersen, I think you
alluded to it. The litigation is holding up--22 States are
holding up the movement of our Continuum of Care. We were ready
right when the shutdown came out. We announced it but because
of litigation, it is delaying the process.
I think you are speaking to exactly what the problem is. We
have to change the paradigm.
Ms. Pettersen. Secretary Turner, I am sorry, I have to
reclaim my time because it is running out.
I would love to have a written copy on what analysis you
did for the impact. I want to take you back to Colorado and the
experience that we had.
I saw firsthand, fighting to save my mom's life, who
struggled with addiction with nowhere to go, and finding out
that Medicaid did not cover access to treatment. It is a
medical condition that absolutely needs medical attention.
So we applied for a waiver. I directed the State to apply
for a waiver, and we took years to implement and oversee this
waiver. It has saved countless lives.
Thirty-four other States followed suit. So we have built
capacity across the Nation to help support those who are
struggling with addiction.
Unfortunately, under this administration with the (OBBB)
One, Big, Beautiful Bill, they took away the ability for States
to utilize this waiver. Fifteen thousand people in Colorado the
first year had access to treatment because of this.
So when you talk about increasing access to treatment and
getting people the help they need, it could not be further from
the truth on what is happening under this administration.
Are you aware about taking away this waiver and also, just
last week, unlawfully threatening to withhold $2 billion from
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
(SAMHSA) funding?
Chairman Hill. If you would answer that question in
writing, Mr. Secretary. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr.
Meuser, who is the chair of our Oversight and Investigations
Subcommittee.
Mr. Meuser. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Secretary Turner, great to see you.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Meuser. Appreciate all your great work, your continued
great work.
You mentioned earlier that HUD does not have a money
problem, it has had a management problem. So I appreciate that
very much, particularly since in 2019 the budget was $54
billion with 7,400 employees. In 2024, it was $72 billion with
9,600 employees.
By the way, the Biden Administration during the 4-year
period hired 275,000 new Federal employees. So yours went up
proportionally about what other agencies did.
Yet, on the budget side of things, for 2026, you have got a
budget of $76.5 billion, $4.5 billion than before, where my
understanding is all of it basically is going to the Tenant-
Based Rental Assistance Program, which sounds like it is needed
but I am sure you are going to manage through that.
Is that because of the high influx of illegals, illegal
immigrants that come in, or why $4.5 billion or $6 billion more
for that, just from the huge increases that occurred during the
Biden Administration?
Secretary Turner. Well, yes, sir. There were no
accountability and no transparency.
You alluded to during the Biden Administration, actually
during COVID, there were 2,000 additional people that were
hired at HUD, but the results were abysmal. The work was not
being done. We were still serving only one out of every four
people.
When we came in, we gave the people the option, the
voluntary option to take the DRP; 2,400 did. We have not missed
a beat as far as fulfilling our statutory requirements and
serving the people of our country.
Yes, when you have millions of illegals that are coming
across our border, it does strain our housing supply. It does
take up housing that is supposed to be for the American people.
So, yes, sir, this is part of the problem.
Mr. Meuser. Okay. Fraud, waste, and abuse, I mean, when you
increase from $54 billion over a few-year period to $72
billion, as occurred in the Biden Administration, fraud, waste,
and abuse Secretary Bessent estimated to be about 10 percent
across all agencies.
You have already identified, I believe, $6 billion of
fraud, waste, and abuse.
Secretary Turner. Yes. There was a lack of stewardship, if
you will, a lack of management and financial controls during
the Biden Administration.
I believe that we need to be good stewards over taxpayer
dollars. With almost an $80 billion budget and serving the
people of America, we have to utilize or maximize this budget
in the appropriate way to serve those we are called to serve,
and that was not happening during the Biden Administration.
Rest assured, since I have come in and our team has come
in, we are laser focused on using the resources of taxpayer
money to serve the people of HUD as it pertains to housing,
homelessness, and disaster recovery.
Mr. Meuser. Thank you.
PHAs, is that where some of the fraud, waste, and abuse
occurred.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. There are a lot of waste and
fraud and abuse in PHAs. We have also put PHAs across our
country on notice, telling them: Hey, listen, we are not going
to turn a blind eye. You will be held accountable about who
lives in these HUD-funded properties, the living conditions,
the crime.
I said before we introduced a crime hotline for people not
to be afraid to tell us about what is going on in PHAs that is
nefarious activity, because public housing should be safe
housing and it should be accountable.
Mr. Meuser. Outstanding. Thank you.
The Housing for the 21st Century Act, written by our
colleague Mike Flood and our chairman, calls for increased
transparency of HUD contracts and to publish all contracts to
ensure money goes where it says it is going.
Is that a bill that you are--and by the way, it also calls
for--requires you to testify once a year. So you have that to
look forward to.
Secretary Turner. Yes, I do not. Okay. I am happy to see
you all.
Mr. Meuser. All right. Great.
Also, just last, as I wrap up, veteran housing. I am doing
some work with Tunnel to Towers that creates a program to
maximize the use of the Housing and Urban Development-VA
Supportive Housing (HUD-VASH) vouchers so jurisdictions with
too many vouchers can send them to others in need.
Can you just speak a little bit about how you are
strengthening veteran housing?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
This is a top priority for us at HUD, our VASH program,
working with the VA, Secretary Collins. I have met and seen
many veterans across our country, both from the Tribal nations
and not.
So veteran housing is very important to us, and we want to
make sure we continue to strengthen veteran housing to take
care of the men and women that served our country.
Mr. Meuser. Well, thank you. We are very happy you are in
your position, appreciate you very much.
Chairman, I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Oregon.
Ms. Bynum, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Bynum. Thank you, Mr. Chair and thank you, Secretary
Turner----
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Bynum [continuing]. for appearing before our committee
today and for your testimony and thank you to Chairman Hill and
Ranking Member Waters for convening this important meeting.
One of the issues that I hear about from my constituents in
Oregon time and time again, regardless of their background and
their politics, is the crushing cost of housing. I am sure
everybody said that today and I believe our Federal Government
must make significant strides to address this crisis.
So I am proud to be on this committee, and I think we have
an obligation to advance good policy that lowers the cost of
buying a home and decreases rents for folks across the country.
With that in mind, first I wanted to address with you the
critical issue of housing affordability on Indian reservations
and in Tribal communities.
My home State of Oregon is home to nine federally
recognized Tribes that all receive Federal dollars under the
Indian Housing Block Grant Program.
As you know, NAHASDA, under which the Indian Housing Block
Grant (IHBG) program is administered, was last reauthorized in
2008, and the program expired in 2013.
Since its initial passage, the program has been a vital
investment in safe and affordable housing for Native families
across the country.
In Oregon, where several Tribes were stripped of their
rights as federally recognized Tribes under the Federal
Government's termination policy, this resulted in them losing
their lands and critical funding.
NAHASDA has enabled those Tribes to reassert their
sovereignty and provide affordable housing maintenance and
counseling in their communities.
So I was pleased to hear the commitment that you made to
Congressman Downing earlier in this hearing to reauthorize and
update NAHASDA, and I look forward to working with you and the
Congressman on this program.
I want to switch gears now and move you to the broader
market and housing affordability challenges.
You have spoken briefly about slashing bureaucracy--yay--as
a cure-all, but in my district the math does not always add up.
Even with zero red tape, our residential construction industry
faces a labor shortage, and the cost of materials remains at a
record high.
Now, this is where I come in as a mom. It poses a
particular challenge for our young people. You may know that
nearly one-third, which is about 32.5 percent of young adults
aged 18 to 34, live in their parents' homes.
I do not know if you have kids but I have four of them, 24,
21, 17, 15. I tell them, A, I want to transition them off the
payroll; and, B, I want you to live down the street, not
downstairs. So we are working on it, right?
So I have spoken in the committee before about that, but I
want to know what specific HUD resources that are being
deployed, that new supply that comes online is not just luxury
development, but they are homes that our young people can
actually afford to buy and live in.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. Thank you, Congresswoman
Bynum and I agree, the quicker you can get them off the
payroll, the better. We are very focused on this, because I too
hear from young people about housing affordability.
To me, it is an overall picture of getting our fiscal house
in order, bringing interest rates down, mortgage rates down,
and access to capital.
With these things, I think across generations, if we can
bring the affordability down, which we are working on, and
bring the supply up, then people in America will be able to
afford to buy a home and rent will be adequate for people that
can rent.
I also will talk about opportunity zones, because I believe
in opportunity zones. It gives us an asset. It gives us a means
to build affordable housing across our country of all types,
multifamily or single-family, if you will, prioritizing really
single-family, because that is the greatest way to start
creating wealth in our country.
I too share the same sentiment and know that we are fully
focused on working housing affordability, not just by talk but
really by execution and action. You can see not only just from
the President but other agencies and leaders that we are taking
bold steps to make sure this happens.
Ms. Bynum. Thank you. So building on that, you said that
States and local governments should have skin in the game. You
said that before. When it comes to housing affordability, I
would say, during my time in the State legislature, Oregon
authorized over $350 million to build more housing. So if
States like mine continue to step up, would you be open to
committing that HUD recognize those State and local efforts
where housing is most needed and use your resources to amplify
those methods?
Secretary Turner. Yes. I like to tell stories about people
that are doing it the right way.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from California.
Mrs. Kim, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Kim. Thank you, Chairman Hill and Ranking Member
Waters, for hosting today's hearing. Secretary Turner, thank
you for being here. It is good to see you again.
Secretary Turner. Nice to see you, ma'am.
Mrs. Kim. Thank you. In California, where I am from, we are
facing affordability crisis, especially in housing. Not only
have we received F rating in housing affordability, but only 17
percent of Californians can afford to purchase a medium-priced
family home. This is simply unacceptable, which is why I have
been working hard in Congress to enact policies that will undo
the damaging work that our Governor has done.
So as a chair of--co-chair of the State and Local Tax
(SALT) Caucus, I was able to deliver four times increase in
SALT deduction to help address housing affordability and I hope
this brings some relief for Californians.
I have also been championing the use of modern credit
scoring models in housing. As you know, these models often
include rental and utility payment data, all of which will help
more Americans achieve their dream of home ownership.
Secretary Turner, as FHFA finalizes the implementation of
President Trump's Credit Score Competition Act, I hope that you
will ensure that FHA underwriting keeps pace so that more
working families can purchase homes and we can lift that 17
percent number in California. You do not have to respond
because I know you are in agreement with this.
So let me just shift some topics now and focus on the
potential changes to the Claims Without Conveyance of Title
program that would allow mortgage servicers to use auction
providers that they own or control when a loan goes to
foreclose.
Secretary Turner, is it not a strong possibility that a
mortgage servicer will simply steer all the auction business to
their own auction platform regardless of performance?
Secretary Turner. Yes. I think that bringing competition to
this is a great idea. One, competition brings out the best in
everyone. Competition also--there is accountability in
competition. I am familiar, obviously, with what you are
speaking of and so I think working with our housing office to
bring more competition to the table is a healthy thing.
Mrs. Kim. I just wanted to ask you, when you were deciding
to make these changes, did HUD do any analyses or studies that
indicated that competition was lacking among independent
auction platforms?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am, I do believe so and I will
get that report for you. We will work with our team and our
housing office to make sure.
Mrs. Kim. Thank you. As you continue that comment period
and evaluate the feedback on that proposal, of course I want to
see what you have. I hope that you also consider the
possibility that this could potentially lead to more
consolidation with the industry rather than competition.
Let me shift gears again. In Orange County, San Bernardino,
and Riverside Counties that I am honored to represent, we are
lucky to have great community partners who have stewarded the
Continuum of Care funding to help thousands of my constituents
but as you know, there is a shift from 2-year funding cycle to
1-year funding cycle. So I am concerned that these funds will
not reach the communities that need them in a timely fashion.
So can you explain why this decision was made to shift from 2-
to 1-year period?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. It is a results-oriented
decision. As I study the Continuum of Care of old, with record
funding going toward the Continuum of Care legislation or
through the Notice of Funding Opportunity (NOFO), the
competitive NOFO. I do not believe that we were served the
homeless neighbors that we should have been serving and
treating them and getting them to self-sustainability like we
should have.
So to use a football term we were running the same plays
over and over again, but they were not bringing the best
results for the American people. Through our analysis and
through our study, the 1-year deal that you mentioned and also
the way that these funds are allocated, not just to housing,
but to treat people is an overarching theme that we have.
Mrs. Kim. So I just want to ask you, as you go through
these changes, if you can give the previous 2-year grant
recipients priority during any new notice of funding
opportunity, because it is really important to recognize that
there are great partners that have done a great job. They know
their community and the people they are serving the best.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. Those are bringing the
results that are actually helping the homeless neighbors that
we have across our country. They will--we do want to work with
them in the appropriate manner. Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Kim. Thank you very much.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms.
Tlaib. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Tlaib. Oh, it is not working. One second. Sorry. Can I
get my time back? Thank you, sir.
Thank you, Secretary, for--I think people know who I am.
Thank you, that is very kind.
Thank you, Secretary, for being here.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Tlaib. I want you to know, of course you can see, there
is incredible bipartisan support to do more around housing.
Are you familiar with who Paul Osadebe is? Do you know who
that is?
Secretary Turner. No, ma'am.
Ms. Tlaib. Do you know who Palmer Heenan is?
Can they both please stand in the back? They are right
behind you. Do you know who these employees are?
No? You are not familiar with them, sir?
Secretary Turner. I have seen them.
Ms. Tlaib. You have seen them. Okay.
You can take your seats.
So both of them are attorneys that enforced our housing
laws, including discrimination. Are you aware that is their
role?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Tlaib. Okay. I understand that one of them is on
administrative leave, and the other one, Mr. Heenan, you fired
him. Is that correct?
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, these things are under litigation
at HUD, and so I----
Ms. Tlaib. For the record----
Secretary Turner [continuing]. I can no further speak on
that.
Ms. Tlaib. For the record, Mr. Chair, Mr. Osadebe, is
confirmed that he is on administrative leave by the Secretary,
under his leadership and Mr. Paul Heenan was fired.
I am very confused about how we are enforcing current law.
So are you familiar with the Whistleblowers Protection Act?
Secretary Turner. I am.
Ms. Tlaib. Okay. Employees are protected when they
reasonably believe they are revealing violation of law, right?
A rule or regulation, gross mismanagement, gross waste of
funds, abuse of authority, right?
So why did you fire--why did you put them on leave and fire
them when they were trying to enforce the law?
Secretary Turner. Congressman, these things are under
litigation, so I am not at liberty to speak upon them.
Ms. Tlaib. But they are protected under the Whistleblowers
Act. Do you at least agree they are protected under the
Whistleblowers Protection Act?
Secretary Turner. We uphold the Whistleblowers Act, but I
am not going to talk about this as it is in litigation.
Ms. Tlaib. Okay. For the record, they are protected. They
came to Congress to say, I was trying to enforce VAWA, Violence
Against Women's Act. I was trying to do my job, and they told
me to stop. This is what the claim here is, they came to
Congress to say please know that I am trying to do my job, and
I am being told no, go home. I will pay you, but you are not
going to enforce VAWA. You--I am going to fire you. Even though
they came before Congress, they should be protected.
Do you at least agree that anybody coming to Congress under
the protection of the Whistleblowers Protection Act should be
protected?
Secretary Turner. Well, like I said, we uphold the
Whistleblowers Act, but I am not at liberty to speak on these
things.
Ms. Tlaib. Okay. Well, Mr. Secretary, this is an important
one the American people would like to know. Do you believe
housing discrimination is illegal?
Secretary Turner. All discrimination is illegal.
Mr. Tlaib. Good. If laws are not being enforced, would you
want an employee under your department to come forward?
Secretary Turner. What I would want is for us to uphold----
Ms. Tlaib. Oh, that is a simple--Mr. Secretary, come on.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Tlaib. So if you are a Federal employee----
Secretary Turner. Listen to me, if you would.
Ms. Tlaib. If they come before you and say, hey, the law
right now on housing discrimination, which we are legally
allow---really, forced to enforce, if it is not being followed,
would you want them to come to you?
Secretary Turner. Of course, I would want our team to know
about any discrimination that is going on, but----
Ms. Tlaib. So then why did you fire a supervisor who came
to you and said, hey, when we do this, it is illegal? They came
to you--the supervisor came and said to folks under your
leadership, hey, we cannot ignore a VAWA claim. I mean, this
woman was being stalked, and she was being discriminated in
accessing housing. There was direction that violated current
Federal law. Instead of allowing them to comply or make
adjustments, you let them go.
Secretary Turner. As I said before, I am not going to speak
on this issue as it is under litigation. To the privacy of
these two gentlemen and HUD, I think that is appropriate.
Ms. Tlaib. If you do find out through investigation,
through the process and the litigation, will you commit to
immediately returning all former Fair Housing staff that have
been reassigned?
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, that is not a commitment that I am
going to make today. We have to go through the litigation
process.
Ms. Tlaib. Okay. Will you at least commit that if someone
came forward to say, we are not enforcing housing
discrimination laws that the Congress passed, will you at least
consider rehiring them?
It is not just about Mr. Palmer Heenan, who is really a
hero, and so is Paul Osadebe. They know, Osadebe and Heenan,
that their lives were altered completely because they have
become the face of folks that have come forward, that speak the
truth about the fact that we are not enforcing housing
discrimination law under your leadership.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The chair now recognizes the chair of the Subcommittee on
Housing and Insurance and a principal author of our 21st
Century Housing Act, Mr. Flood. You are recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. Flood. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary Turner, thank
you for being here today.
Secretary Turner. Sir.
Mr. Flood. As you know, our committee has worked very hard
on the Housing for the 21st Century Act, which would address
rising housing costs with reforms that will cut red tape and
reduce burdensome Federal regulations that slow down projects.
I wanted to discuss a few of the regulatory reforms that I
think will be especially meaningful within the Housing for the
21st Century Act.
Let us start with environmental review in permitting.
Section 201 statutorily exempts uses of the HOME Investment
Partnership dollars for the following activities from National
Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) review: number one, new
construction of infill housing projects; number two,
acquisition of real property; number three, rehabilitation
projects; and then number four, new construction projects of 15
units or less.
Here is my question: Would statutory exemptions for these
activities from NEPA review make the HOME program more
efficient and help build more housing?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, I do believe so. Any
duplicative process, as you know, slows down building and makes
it more--less efficient and costs more. So anything that we can
do to ease that burden, we are willing to look at and work,
obviously, with you as we look at housing affordability.
Mr. Flood. So the 21st Century Housing Act also exempts
small HOME Investment Partnership program's grantees from
section 3 requirements for projects with 50 units or less. As a
reminder, section 3 of the Housing and Urban Development Act of
1968 requires recipients of HUD dollars to prioritize hiring
low-income and very low-income people on projects.
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Flood. While these requirements are well-meaning, they
can be very difficult to fulfill in rural areas, especially
ones that have workforce challenges to begin with.
So here is my question, Mr. Secretary. Do you think that
tailoring section 3 requirements for smaller jurisdictions
could make the HOME program more efficient and help build more
housing?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I know we have had
conversations with this with people on our team pertaining to
section 3 in the HOME program. We are open to ideas, obviously
as I have told many of your colleagues here, to work with you
and your team on that.
Mr. Flood. I would like to briefly touch on changes to the
home ownership side of the HOME program. Section 201 of the
21st Century Housing Act would increase the area median income
threshold for home ownership eligibility in the HOME program
from 80 percent to 100 percent of area median income.
Mr. Secretary, do you agree that is rightsizing the
statutory requirements, and will it make it easier for
municipalities to use the HOME program for home ownership?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flood. Okay. So let us touch on Build America, Buy
America. I do appreciate the gentleman from Montana for raising
this in his efforts today. Section 201 of this act that we have
been referencing says that partnership dollars used for housing
from the Build America, Buy America Act requirements are part
of President Biden's infrastructure law. While supporting
manufacturing and U.S. manufacturing, is important through the
process, whether it is Habitat for Humanity or the Huntsville
Housing Authority, whoever it was across America, we got
feedback that the current iteration of Build America, Buy
America requirements are delaying and, in some cases, outright
killing affordable housing projects.
Mr. Secretary, do you think easing Build America, Buy
America requirements for housing could make the HOME program
more efficient and help build more housing?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. As I told a couple of your
colleagues earlier, we are definitely willing to listen and
analyze the Build America, Buy America program as it pertains
to flexibility, in particular, in our rural areas. So we are
happy to work with you and your team on that to see what we can
do to ease that burden.
Mr. Flood. I appreciate that. I would just stress that,
especially the Habitat for Humanity folks, they are trying
their best to keep the cost down and sometimes those
appliances, in cases, or windows are very hard to come by.
Last question. Secretary Turner, I think there are a lot of
things that HUD can do administratively to ease the compliance
burdens associated with Build America, Buy America requirements
on housing projects. Would you commit to working with me and my
team to ensure BABA compliance does not continue to hinder
HUD's affordable housing projects?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flood. Okay. So I appreciate--we have a unique
opportunity this year in America to have the first meaningful
housing package since 2015, thanks to a Senate that is a
willing partner, a House that has done a lot of work in a
bipartisan manner, and a President that just today made
comments about the importance of housing affordability. I just
want us all to take advantage of this time in a bipartisan way
and reach a goal.
With that, I appreciate your time, Mr. Secretary. Thank you
for being in front of us.
I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from Illinois. Mr.
Casten, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Casten. Thank you, Mr. Hill. On behalf of all the
people of Illinois, I would like to apologize to you as a
former Illini for your rude treatment on behalf of the
gentleman from Indiana.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I knew I had one.
Mr. Casten. Weirdly, I actually want to start with
football. Are you familiar with Polymarket?
Secretary Turner. With what, sir?
Mr. Casten. Polymarket. That is a company. They call
themselves a prediction markets platform. It is a gambling
platform.
Secretary Turner. No, sir.
Mr. Casten. They allow people to bet on measles cases in
the U.S., outcomes, prop bets on football games, winners of
next elections. The NFL has actually raised concerns that this
platform potentially allows players, coaches, people with
inside information to get into the Black Sox Scandal again, to
take another Illinois reference.
Secretary Turner. Yes, it is hurting the integrity of the
game.
Mr. Casten. Yes. So Polymarket is now letting people bet on
median home prices and so you have got a situation where
Realtors, people who have knowledge of the market, could find
themselves in an economic situation where they might have a
rooting interest.
If you are not familiar, I guess I just ask, can you commit
to working with us to try to make sure that we are not allowing
these platforms to compromise people's access to housing in
America?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir, I will look forward to having
that conversation indeed.
Mr. Casten. We will follow up on that.
Second question. The--and this is following on Ms. Tlaib's.
You commented several times, including to the ranking member,
that no one was fired at HUD, that they all took retirement. We
have identified a couple of people who were fired. There are
actually multiple former HUD employees in this room who have
been fired, who have said that probationary--staff, interns,
legal and others were fired.
My question is this: Are those people lying to us or would
you like to correct the comments you made to the ranking
member?
Secretary Turner. No, sir. The numbers that I have, we have
2,400 people that----
Mr. Casten. No, no, no. I am asking, were people fired?
Secretary Turner. I did say to your colleagues that I will
get the exact number to you if we have people that have been
fired----
Mr. Casten. Okay but you had said before that they retired.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. but 2,400 had taken the DRP.
Mr. Casten. The people that are sitting in this room said
they were fired.
Secretary Turner. Yes, we will get the numbers for you,
sir.
Mr. Casten. I am not asking for numbers. I am asking for
you to correct the statement, but maybe you do not want to
correct your statement.
You had mentioned to Ms. Pettersen that the reason for the
shortfall in the Continuum of Care coverage was because of
litigation. I want to clarify. The 2025 NOFO that you offered,
because it was--you had a deadline in January, and the coverage
was not until May--was going to lead to 6-month gap. There was
litigation filed by several States, including Illinois, that
forced you to comply with the 2024 NOFO, but it was HUD's
decision to shorten that to a 1-year NOFO with that short time
period that would have caused a 6-month gap in Continuum of
Care, not the litigation, correct?
Secretary Turner. No, sir. There would not have been a gap
caused by that. We were on track to get the money out----
Mr. Casten. Hang on. The NOFO required a January 14, 2026,
deadline with an award date of May 1. At the same time, the
2024 grants started to expire on December 31. This is a
calendar issue, not a legal issue.
Is May after January?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We were on track----
Mr. Casten. Okay. So May is after January, so there is
going to be a gap.
Secretary Turner. We were on track to get the resources
out, sir.
Mr. Casten. Well, let me just give you some sense of how
this matters. I got a message from one of our partners who
provides housing yesterday who said, ``We have people in our
permanent housing program who are on oxygen tanks, with chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), receiving chemotherapy.
If they lose their house for a week, much less 6 months, it is
a death sentence.''
This is not some legal--what is your message to people
who--forget about liberty and pursuit of happiness. They will
lose their life if there is a 6-month gap, as would have
happened in that program.
Secretary Turner. So we are very intentional about taking
care of those people that are in permanent housing. We have no
intention of putting people on the streets.
Secretary Turner. But what I am telling you is your
partners on the ground in Illinois are telling us in the
Illinois delegation, we are going to have to kick thousands of
people out onto the streets who will die.
Secretary Turner. Sir, you can send them to us. We are
happy to talk to them to make sure that does not happen.
Mr. Casten. Well, they are not trusting that.
I am also hearing from the private sector. I know you have
been very supportive of getting the private sector involved.
Most of the Continuum of Care funding, of course, goes to
landlords, right, goes to the private sector? What is your
message to those people who are sitting there and saying, I was
counting on that HUD funding and now that funding is
potentially on hold for 6 months or tied up in litigation. Why
should they stay in that business?
Secretary Turner. Well, sir, I would tell them it is tied
up in litigation, and I think the people that want to be in
this business----
Mr. Casten. But the litigation is because----
Secretary Turner [continuing]. will stay in.
Mr. Casten. The litigation is because you shortened the
benefits in the program.
Secretary Turner. No. The litigation is because they do not
like how we want to change the Continuum of Care program. That
is the exact reason for the litigation.
Mr. Casten. So your actions have injected uncertainty into
a program. Markets do not like uncertainty.
Secretary Turner. Indeed.
Mr. Casten. The--40 percent of all permanent housing
residents are seniors. What is your message to those seniors
who are going to find themselves unhoused because the landlords
are not going to provide the housing? What is your message to
the 4,000 veterans who are living in supportive housing?
Secretary Turner. We have made it very clear that we
prioritize our veterans and seniors.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired. I thank
the gentleman from Illinois.
The chair recognizes the chair of the Republican
Conference, Mrs. McClain from Michigan. You are recognized for
5 minutes.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you for
being here today. It is very nice to see you again.
I think we all agree that we have a housing issue in
America, right? The affordability of housing and also the
availability of housing; and it seems like both sides agree on
that.
I am happy to report that Republicans are actually trying
to fix it in a bipartisan fashion, which I hope we can get
there.
One of the things I do want to talk about is some actual
legislation that we have. I remember when we had the modular
housing event on the mall, and you actually came out and toured
it to see it and touch it and feel it with your own hands. I
appreciate that. I am proud to have introduced legislation, the
Modular Housing Protection Act, with Representative Lynch.
Can you discuss how modular and manufactured homes have
changed over the past two decades? I mean, I think of a modular
home back when I was growing up, and what we saw on the mall is
completely different.
Then the real question is, should these homes be eligible
for federally backed mortgages--with help the availability and
the affordability?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. So as you saw on the
Innovative Housing Showcase, modular homes are a lot different
than the mobile homes that we were used to back in the
seventies, if you will. They are very innovative; they are
creative; they are efficient; they are----
Mrs. McClain. They are beautiful.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. They are beautiful. The cost
to build them is half of a single-family home as we do know it.
To get rid of the permanent chassis obviously would give us
more flexibility and help the manufactured housing industry. As
you know also, it has been hard historically for people to get
loans for modular houses.
So all of these things are being discussed at HUD and with
industry partners. I am happy to discuss this with you and your
team as we know that the manufacturing home industry will be a
tremendous gap filler, if you will, an opportunity for people
as we attack this housing affordability issue in our country.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you. I think you would agree with me
that it is incorrect to blanketly classify all manufactured
homes as personal property and that is what this bill does, it
reverses that, right.
How does this definition of personal property on
manufactured homes limit manufactured housing adoption today?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. You alluded to the
definition. We have to update a lot of the codes, definitions,
at HUD and which we are tirelessly working on----
Mrs. McClain. Appreciate it.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. as you know. So welcome your
ideas on this so that we can unleash our modular housing
industry.
Mrs. McClain. Yes. I would ask everyone to support this
bill. It is really crucial to the availability and
affordability, and it let us people who need homes the most
actually be able to go out there and get financing.
Now let me just switch a little bit to housing
infrastructure. Can you discuss the roadblocks that
municipalities are running into when trying to find affordable
finance options to expand housing-related infrastructure?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. A lot of this has to do with
the regulatory environment, both from an infrastructure, from a
lending, from a capital standpoint and this is obviously an
overarching view that we have talked about immensely, since our
time coming to HUD and also this morning.
So taking down this regulation and the regulatory
environment and barriers will unleash, not only the lending
market, the capital market, but also the infrastructure and
building.
Mrs. McClain. I think this is an obvious question, but I am
going to ask it anyway just to make my point. Every piece of
regulation that we layer on top, with another layer of
administration, another layer of bureaucracy, another layer of
regulation, does that make costs of buying a home go up or go
down?
Secretary Turner. It makes it go up.
Mrs. McClain. Absolutely. I think us here, we are really
trying to focus on getting rid of the barriers to entry and
actually making housing more affordable. Put the power back in
the people's hands.
Secretary Turner. Yes.
Mrs. McClain. Do you have an estimate of what these
regulatory costs would be for an average home?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. About 25 percent of the cost
to build a single-family home is regulation. About 40 percent
of the cost of a multifamily project is in regulations, and it
is not sustainable. We have to bring it down.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you. I think we just need to continue.
There is one thing to talk about helping people; there is
another thing to pass legislation, to actually let people get
in and buy their first home. That is affordable, that is
reasonable.
So I applaud your work, and I applaud your efforts and I
really applaud the fact that you get out there and touch it and
feel it and see it. So thank you for the work that you have
done.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Ohio, Mrs.
Beatty, who is the ranking member of our Subcommittee on
National Security. Recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Beatty. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and ranking member.
To you, Mr. Secretary, I would like to get through a few
different topics with you, so you are going to have to bear
with me. I am going to try to speed through these because I
have a lot of questions because housing is personal to me.
My very first job after college was with the public housing
authority and, for more than a decade, I was a consultant to
HUD with relocation contracts. So it is a big deal to me.
In my home State of Ohio, the latest Gap Report shows that
we are facing a shortage of some more than a quarter of a
million affordable rental homes for extremely low-income
renters. In order to afford a fair market rent, two-bedroom
apartment in Columbus, Ohio, a household must earn at least
$27.79 an hour.
Under your leadership, the Department has slashed
significantly, scaling back operations at several regional and
field offices across the country, reducing HUD's ability to
serve communities on the ground or oversee housing programs. I
have been in constant communication with our not-for profits
and affordable housing stakeholders over the last year, and
they have all told me that their inquiries to HUD have gone
unanswered for months.
So I am going to ask you to respond to that. Let me also
ask you, do you remember getting any of the many letters that I
addressed to you? I mean, you knew you were coming here; you
probably figured I would ask you that question.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. We have----
Mrs. Beatty. No, it is a yes or no.
Secretary Turner. We----
Mrs. Beatty. It is a yes or no. Come on, work with me.
Secretary Turner. We get many letters, ma'am.
Mrs. Beatty. So the answer is no, you do not remember
getting the one from me.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am, I do.
Mrs. Beatty. You do? Did you answer it?
Secretary Turner. I was informed that we get many letters
from you and others----
Mrs. Beatty. It is my time. Secretary Turner, it is my
time. Since you remembered it, I did not get an answer from
you. Several letters.
Now, on Friday, we got basically a form letter from your
staff because you knew you were coming here and we were going
to ask you that. So I just wanted that for the record.
Secretary Turner. Well, I am glad you--I am glad that we
responded.
Mrs. Beatty. No, it was not a good response. That is
insulting what you just said. It was not a good response.
Secretary Turner. I said I am glad that we did respond,
ma'am.
Mrs. Beatty. Well, a year. You should not be proud of a
year to give me a response.
So what is your explanation for the breakdown in
communication with housing organizations? In addition to me, my
organizations have said that they have not heard from you. So
can you tell me what are the staffing cuts increasing--how are
these staffing cuts increasing the supply of affordable housing
for my constituents?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. Congressman, we--I am not
aware of any communication issues, but I am happy to work with
you and your team----
Mrs. Beatty. Well, let us talk about the cuts.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. on communications----
Mrs. Beatty. Look, my time. Let us talk about the cuts now.
Secretary Turner. Okay.
Mrs. Beatty. What is your explanation on the staffing cuts
increasing the supply of affordable housing for my
constituents?
Secretary Turner. Ma'am, we have adequate staff at HUD. We
have not missed a beat as it pertains to servicing the American
people, either in our field offices, our regional office, or
here at our headquarters.
Mrs. Beatty. That is not true. So let me just go on to the
next----
Secretary Turner. So I am extremely confident we will keep
it up.
Mrs. Beatty. My time. Let me go to the next question. Let
me go to the next question.
Secretary Turner. Okay.
Mrs. Beatty. I am also very upset, because when you look at
HUD's changes to the Fiscal Year 2025 Notice of Funding
Opportunities for the Continuum of Care--following up with what
Sean Casten had brought up--which HUD temporarily withdrew and
reissued in December--I am aware that the Notice of Funding
Opportunity was blocked by a Federal judge. If HUD's changes to
the program are successful, Ohio will lose $80 million in
permanent housing for formerly homeless people, and we will
drop from $114 million to $34 million. Across Ohio, 10,000
households, including children and veterans and people with
disabilities, will lose their housing.
Secretary Turner, how will destabilizing housing for 10,000
households, people who have a place to live that they now call
home, address the homelessness and how you will solve the
housing crisis in my home State?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. I believe that these changes
that we will make will actually help us to serve the people----
Mrs. Beatty. What are the changes? I do not want words. I
want you to give me actions. What will you specifically have
your folks do?
Secretary Turner. We will not only concentrate on housing
people, actually treating people so that they can get healthy
and transform----
Mrs. Beatty. How will you treat them?
Secretary Turner [continuing]. and actually, wraparound
services----
Mrs. Beatty. Now, come on.
Secretary Turner. Ma'am.--wraparound services like----
Mrs. Beatty. Well, let us talk about wraparound services.
Secretary Turner [continuing]. my uncle has used, like Mrs.
Pettersen's wife--mother has used. Wraparound services to treat
the real root cause of homelessness. This will help us better
serve----
Mrs. Beatty. Okay. Let me ask you about that. I am glad you
mentioned wraparound.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr.
Donalds. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman.
Secretary Turner, it is good to see you. I want to start
specifically with an issue in Florida. I have received
significant outreach in my State on an issue dealing with a
2008 Fannie Mae policy regarding the application of the limited
review process for condominiums. For 17 years, this policy has
only applied to Florida and has negatively impacted condominium
owners throughout my State.
Under B4-2.2-04 of the Selling Guide, Floridians seeking to
purchase a condo are required to put 25 percent down up front
and are subject to a 75 percent loan-to-value, while the rest
of the country qualifies for 90 percent. What actions are
required by the FHFA to fix this and make Florida subject to
the same lending terms as the rest of America?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman Donalds.
It is great to see you again.
I will make sure that we work very closely with our
partners at FHFA to make sure that Florida residents, as it
pertains to your issue, are being treated appropriately and
fairly in this issue, and happy to work with you and your staff
as we go forward on that.
Mr. Donalds. Absolutely, because this is something
obviously in our real estate market as you are having a
transition of units from buyer to seller, especially in light
of the fact of the affordability issues when it comes to
housing, not just in Florida but in the United States writ
large. I think it is important that the State of Florida and
their residents have an opportunity to really not be
disadvantaged just because they chose to make Florida their
home.
One other question. Obviously, the median age for first-
time home buyers has been increasing for quite some time in the
United States. What are some of the factors that you see that
are contributing to the rise?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Well, I think our fiscal house
was not in order. The cost to buy a home, the cost to build a
home, inflation, was at an all-time high. Mortgage rates were
at an all-time high. Interest rates were at an all-time high
but under President Trump's leadership, these things are coming
down day by day. Really, the proof is in the pudding. Mortgage
rates are down. People are starting to buy houses now, getting
loans.
So as we get our fiscal house in order, if we secure our
border and actually focus on American people, I believe that
the American Dream is right in view and grasp of many, many
more people in the days to come.
Mr. Donalds. I want to thank your agency for doing some
work around the innovation of constructing new homes. I heard
your commentary with my colleague from the State of Michigan
about the future of modular housing. It is not--these are not
trailer parks and that is not to demean trailer parks. I think
there are people who they have chosen that to be their home,
whether it was the seventies or eighties and living in my State
like in other States around the country.
I think it is important for people to understand that the
future of home construction is not just about site-built homes.
It is also about homes that are actually manufactured in
facilities and then actually brought out to the home site and
stood up.
Especially for Floridians, what I have seen, and I know you
have seen this as well, Mr. Secretary, is that the construction
standards meet the hurricane codes in Florida and can meet the
codes of just about any jurisdiction in the United States. I do
not know if you want to elaborate on that, Mr. Turner.
Secretary Turner. I am in total agreement. I am for the
manufacturing industry. So whatever we can do to unleash them
in the appropriate manner to serve the American people, I am
for it.
Mr. Donalds. All right. Well, listen, Mr. Secretary, thank
you for your time.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Hill. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
Votes have been called on the House floor, and pursuant to
the previous order, the chair declares the committee in recess,
subject to the call of the chair. We will reconvene immediately
after the floor votes. If everybody would remain seated for the
Secretary could excuse himself.
The committee stands in recess.
[Recess.]
Chairman Hill. The committee will come to order.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from New York, Mr.
Lawler. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Housing affordability is one of the most common concerns I
hear from my constituents as numerous factors, including high
mortgage rates and taxes and most critically, a limited supply
of housing are making this the most difficult time to purchase
a home in a generation.
One of the goals of the bipartisan Housing for the 21st
Century Act is to modernize and reform outdated housing
programs to better fit the needs of today. As you strive to
achieve the same goals in your role as Secretary, it is
critical that we be working together and providing
accountability and transparency to the American people.
I am proud to have included in the Housing for the 21st
Century Act my HUD Accountability Act. This would be the
first--this would, for the first time, require the HUD
Secretary to testify before the committee on an annual basis,
which is not currently statutorily mandated.
Would you support a yearly requirement--I know you have had
a lot of fun today--for the HUD Secretary to testify before
Congress? Would yearly testimony ensure you and future
Secretaries, ensure that HUD is accountable and transparent to
Congress and the American people?
Secretary Turner. Well, Congressman, it is always good to
see you, sir. Great to visit with you yesterday.
To be honest, to hear about to come every single year--I am
happy to see all of you, but accountability is important,
transparency is important. When we take these jobs, we want to
be accountable to the mission that we have. So I am happy to
always be available to speak to you and your colleagues.
Mr. Lawler. Appreciate it. For decades, NYCHA and other
troubled Public Housing Agencies have failed many families, and
oversight mechanisms have fallen short. I am proud to have
introduced and included in the Housing for 21st Century Act my
Improving Public Housing Agency Accountability Act and the
Accountability for NYCHA Act, legislation that will ensure
proper oversight is being conducted and reforms are enacted for
the residents of these housing authorities.
NYCHA each year receives billions of dollars annually. In
2024, they had over 70 employees indicted for bribery and other
crimes in a single day.
Preventing waste, fraud, and abuse in taxpayer-backed
programs remains a critical goal of this administration. What
tools does HUD already have to address improper payments and
program integrity that have not been used consistently?
Secretary Turner. Thank you sir, and I agree. We talked
about NYCHA extensively here in this committee and, indeed,
there is corruption or accountability, not only in NYCHA, but
other PHAs across our country, which we are obviously
responsible for. Irv Dennis and our chief financial officer,
the office are working on projects to make sure that we
validate and receive sub-recipient data as it pertains to
contractors and others to make sure that we are validating
everyone to make sure the money that is being allocated is used
properly and appropriately because, as you know, this is
American taxpayer money.
Mr. Lawler. No question. Certainly, there is an enormous
amount of work to modernize the Department and improve the
efficiency and impact on services and, really, the
accountability to taxpayers. I think the administration is
doing a tremendous amount of work to help address the cost of
living more generally as folks have been struggling for years
with rampant inflation and unaffordability, as well as the
overall cost of living, whether we talk about groceries,
whether we talk about insurance, whether we talk about utility
costs. These are all things that we are working to rein in both
in a Republican-led House and the administration.
I think it is also critical to ensure that, while we are
pursuing these goals, that we are preventing service
disruptions for those who need it, including individuals and
families experiencing homelessness. So I urge you to keep that
in mind as the Department explores changes to the Continuum of
Care grants that we have heard a lot about and really for all
other programs that Americans are relying on. I think there is
a lot we can do.
At the end of the day, this really comes down to supply and
demand. We need to build more housing in this country. We are 8
million units-plus underbuilt nationwide. That is what is
driving the increase in cost for housing, for rent, and it
makes it harder for the funds that we do dedicate to go
further. So we need to be addressing some of the impediments to
building more housing. We need to increase the flow of capital
into the public so that people can purchase a home, that people
can build homes, et cetera, and have greater supply to address
the unaffordability issue that we see all across this country.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. De La Cruz,
you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. De La Cruz. Thank you, Chairman Hill, for holding this
important hearing and thank you, Secretary Turner, for being
here with us today.
As a fellow Texan, it is nice to have you here. If we can
have you here on an annual basis, it is such a pleasure for us.
My district is in deep south Texas, the Rio Grande Valley.
Housing has become a dream that many of our young folks feel is
just not attainable anymore. Thankfully, this committee, under
the leadership of Chairman Hill, we have focused on addressing
these concerns through our Housing for the 21st Century Act.
I also want to thank you for your efforts in refocusing HUD
on housing affordability. That being said, Mr. Secretary, I am
sure you would acknowledge that in order for HUD to serve those
who need housing assistance most, you must first ensure that
HUD is a good steward of our tax dollars.
Well, shockingly, in the last Congress, your predecessor
sat right in your chair, and when I asked her if there were any
fraud, waste, and abuse: She said no. Now that you have been
here a year in your position, please share with us any fraud,
waste, and abuse that you have had, and talk about HUD's most
recent financial report released in December highlighting
potential payment errors of $5 billion that were made under the
Biden Administration.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am and that is unfortunate that
my predecessor said there was no waste, fraud, and abuse,
because HUD had been wrought with waste, fraud, and abuse. When
we first came in, we found about $1.9 billion in misplaced
funds. I am not sure how you misplace almost $2 billion but we
took the appropriate steps to deobligate that and sent it back
to the Treasury. We found $4 million just in DEI contracts that
had nothing to do with housing, and so we canceled those
contracts because that is American taxpayer money.
You mentioned the $5 billion in improper payments that we
are on top of. We have a tremendous CFO in Irv Dennis in that
office. We want to make sure that the money that American
taxpayers work for hard every day is used appropriately and the
stewardship is there for the American people. We are mission-
minded at HUD, and we will continue to root out fraud, waste,
and abuse, and hold people accountable who defraud the American
people.
Ms. De La Cruz. What I love that you have said over and
over again throughout this hearing is a good steward of
taxpayer money. I think that is what the American people want
us to do. They want us to help those most in need and not have
the waste and the fraud that we have been finding and that you
just mentioned.
Now, Mr. Secretary, I am going to turn our attention to
something that is near and dear to my heart and yours, and that
is opportunity zones. This is an initiative that you helped
lead during the first Trump Administration. As you know, with
the passage of the one Big Beautiful Bill, the opportunity
zones are now a permanent part of our Tax Code. So I think this
represents an incredible opportunity, not only for those in
south Texas to spur housing development and bring down costs,
but for all American communities.
Can you share what HUD is doing to encourage housing
development in opportunity zones?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am. We are excited about the
continuation and the permanency of opportunity zones because
they were so transformative and important since 2018 to 2019,
the last Trump Administration. We expected there should be over
$100 billion invested in opportunity zones, hundreds of
thousands of units of housing built, and people being lifted
out of poverty. That precedent has already been set because of
the first round that we saw in data and results in opportunity
zones.
Single-family housing, job creation, business creation is
of utmost priority in opportunity zones, but in particular for
housing and single family, not just in urban, but also in rural
parts of our country to make sure that revitalization is coming
in a very powerful way.
Ms. De La Cruz. You mentioned opportunities to lift people
out of poverty, new bus---small businesses, and different
single-dwelling homes that are available. Does HUD have all of
the opportunity zone data that it needs currently, and are
there any tools that HUD needs from Congress to better leverage
the opportunity zone opportunity?
Secretary Turner. Yes, that is a great question and thank
you.
Yes, ma'am, we do have the data from our opportunity zone
policy and initiative. The more data, the better. I am happy to
hear any ideas that you and your colleagues have about that and
data collection to make sure that we are doing exactly what we
are supposed to be doing and the results are there.
Ms. De La Cruz. Thank you. I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, ma'am.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman yields back.
The gentlewoman from Florida, Ms. Salazar, you are
recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Wonderful to be with
you, Secretary Turner.
You said in February 2025 that you were committed to
reforming HUD with the goal of lowering the cost of housing and
expending our housing supply. We all agree with that, right.
So, right now, these are the numbers: 75 percent of Americans
cannot afford a home; number two, 92 percent of construction
firms report having trouble filling positions that they have
open; number three, 20,000 homes were not built last year.
My question to you is, why is that happening?
Secretary Turner. Well, that is a great question and that
is a lot of information. When we first came in the President
inherited a real mess. Our fiscal house was not in order.
Interest rates were at an all-time high. The cost to build
anything was at an all-time high. Mortgage rates were at an
all-time high. Inflation was at an all-time high.
So if you see the President, as you have seen under his
leadership, we have been bringing these numbers down to make
sure that housing is affordable for people in our country.
Ms. Salazar. Stay right there. Housing needs to be
affordable. Affordable housing means that the home is built at
a price----
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Salazar [continuing]. by the developer, and I know that
very well coming from Miami. We have a lot of construction. A
lot of my supporters are developers, and you only make money if
you can build a home at a price where you make money and then
whatever the selling price is, right? Then everyone's happy.
Secretary Turner. Yes.
Ms. Salazar. The public sector and the buyer.
Secretary Turner. Right. So we have to bring the costs
down.
Ms. Salazar. Right now, one in three tradesmen--carpenter,
drywall installers, roofers, framers--they are immigrants. You
have a seat at the table in the Cabinet, and you know that the
construction sector is losing that stable, secure labor force.
The United States citizens are not choosing to fill those jobs.
Do not you think that maybe you can tell the President that
right now we do not have the hands that we need in those
sectors in order to continue having affordability in the
housing industry?
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am, that is a concern that we
have heard but I personally believe that we have the American
workers to take----
Ms. Salazar. But how come they are not--I agree with that
too--but how come they are not choosing and willing to engage
in those sectors? Because then the developers do not then need
to hire any immigrants because they have the American labor
force willing to do it.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Salazar. Do you agree that Americans choose not to fill
those jobs one in three in the sector--in the construction
sector--is an immigrant?
Secretary Turner. Well, I will say this. I do not know why
they are not choosing those jobs. Those jobs are available. We
have many--I come from the construction and development
industry, so I know we have the workers.
Ms. Salazar. You know they are not choosing them, right?
Okay. So National Association of Home Builders, National
Association of General Contractors, National Association of
Roofing Association, National Association of Mason Contractors,
the Brick Industry Association, the United States Chamber of
Commerce, agrees with a piece of legislation that I introduced
called the Dignity Act. Why? Because they need the hands.
So what is it that these people know that the
administration has not been able to grasp yet about the
construction sector?
Secretary Turner. Well, no, ma'am.
Ms. Salazar. What do you think that is?
Secretary Turner. That is a lot of associations that you
named off. Maybe they should do a survey with private sector
people and ask them why they are not taking these jobs. If they
have all this data, I would be interested to say what is the
reason that the American people are not taking these jobs. I
think you should go to these associations----
Ms. Salazar. They are losing the only people who are
willing to do those jobs. So we have a very big void here. Do
you agree with that? So how are we going to solve that? We are
going to talk about housing and affordability, but if we do not
have the hands, how can we get to that goal?
Secretary Turner. Well, I think we have to get back to
encouraging the trades. For many years in this country, the
trades sector went down--builders, welders, carpenters,
plumbers--because we talk about college and we talk about all
these other things, which we should.
Ms. Salazar. I agree with you, but in the meantime----
Secretary Turner. Well, we have to talk about the trades to
get people involved in the trades.
Ms. Salazar. I agree with you.
Secretary Turner. We have the American people.
Ms. Salazar. Let us teach our kids how to do that. In the
meantime, what do we do?
Secretary Turner. We have got to teach them how to build.
We have got to encourage them to build. American jobs for
American people.
Ms. Salazar. I agree. In the meantime, what do we do?
Secretary Turner. Continue to enforce and encourage the
trades and make sure that American people have American jobs.
That is our priority.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you. I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Chairman Hill. The gentlewoman yields back.
The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Haridopolos is recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Haridopolos. Mr. Secretary, great to see you again.
Thanks for the opportunity to speak with you today.
Earlier, there were some questions brought up about Section
8 housing, and I want to recognize your good efforts on those
to look for potential violators. How are we using the different
tools that we have--mystery shopping, for example--to identify
some of those folks who are not playing by the rules?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We are very intentional about
holding our PHAs accountable and home--land and homeowners
accountable. We are working with our CFOs office, with Irv
Dennis, with Project HUDs, and others to make sure that we are
verifying payments. For the first time really in HUD's history,
we are verifying our project-based rental assistance and our
tenant-based rental assistance to make sure that these moneys
are going to the people that they are supposed to be going to
and used appropriately.
Mr. Haridopolos. I appreciate that. That is good effort.
We already know that, under the FHA, loans are already
assumable, but the features are often underused due to
administrative complexity and high upfront costs. Is HUD
looking at ways to clarify or streamline FHA rules or loan
assumption processes so that they are more accessible to buyers
and sellers?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. Our housing office is working
diligently as it pertains to streamlining our processes with
Frank Cassidy and Matt Jones and Lamar Seats and others. This
is a discussion, and they have also executed on this, as you
know, to make this process more streamlined and quicker to the
market. So yes, sir.
Mr. Haridopolos. One final question, if I could. How does
simplifying FHA program requirements encourage lender
participation and support housing supply, especially in high-
gross States? As Ms. Salazar brought up the State of Florida.
We are in desperate need of more housing so we can bring down
costs, supply and demand, what I believe in. They are not made
here in Congress; they are in the real marketplace.
Secretary Turner. Right.
Mr. Haridopolos. What are we doing there to try to make
sure that we encourage that lender participation which is so
vital?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I believe that when you
streamline the process, you make the process easier, you have
the ability to get more loans for more home buyers to build
more homes across our country. So streamlining is very
important, and we are working very diligently on that day by
day.
Mr. Haridopolos. Is there any piece of legislation that we
have either in the kitty now or that you would like to work--I
would love to work with you on that. I think it is so vital
that we look for that lender participation because, again, we
had a real challenge in the last 4 years with 10 million people
coming here illegally, and that is a supply and law, reality.
When you have 10 million people looking for housing, you are
going to have challenges, to say the least.
So, any way that we can get more participation. Again, you
are on the front lines, so you have the expertise, and we would
love to follow that lead so that we can offer more
alternatives, more supply to drive down that cost, as you guys
have already done a great job of reducing interest rates in our
first year in office. So thank you for your leadership on this,
Mr. Secretary.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from New York, the chair
of the House Homeland Security Committee, Mr. Garbarino. You
are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Garbarino. Thank you very much, Chairman and,
Secretary, thank you very much for being here.
You emphasized consumer empowerment, self-sufficiency, and
the importance of education helping families achieve stable
home ownership. These principles are especially important given
the growing sophistication of threats in the housing market.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) data indicate that
real estate-related fraud losses have more than doubled since
2019, with cyber-enabled fraud reaching $16.6 billion in 2024.
Industry data further shows that roughly 30 percent of title
insurance claims stem from fraud or forgery, often involving
six-figure losses for both homeowners and lenders.
Given the risk profile, how should HUD think about consumer
education on real estate fraud?
Secretary Turner. That is very important sir, and thank
you.
Education is of utmost priority in our FHA and our Housing
department at HUD. We will continue to use our Housing
counselors at HUD to make sure that people are well educated so
the fraud does not take place. We want to literally do what has
not been done, and that is to help people as they go through
the housing process to make sure that they are not being taken
advantage of.
Mr. Garbarino. Is there something HUD can do? Can they
partner with the title insurance industry to both prevent
fraudulent transactions before they occur, as well as protect
homeowners and lenders when defects or fraud still go through?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. I do love working with our
industry partners. We visit with people at HUD all the time
that are experts in the industry to make sure that we are
hearing any concerns or ideas or strategies they may have so
that we can better serve the American people. So yes, sir.
Mr. Garbarino. As someone who has done thousands of real
estate closings in my prior life, our title industry partners
were some of the best assets that I had at a closing table,
so----
I do want to switch gears here a little bit, though. In
2024, the Biden Administration rewrote HUD's Federal Flood Risk
Management Standards to dramatically expand the flood pain
boundaries, both vertically and horizontally, based on climate-
driven modeling rather than historical risk. HUD then delayed
the compliance for single-family construction until February
2026, effectively acknowledging that the rule would
significantly disrupt housing and development and
affordability.
On Long Island where I am from, our housing costs are
already among the highest in the Nation, and buildable land is
extremely limited. This rule would further restrict
development, drive up construction costs, and push home
ownership even further out of reach for working families.
With the current waiver now expiring or near expiring, will
HUD extend this waiver again to avoid worsening housing
affordable----
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We are in discussions with
that. I agree with you, it is not necessary. We need to go back
to what it was, so make sure that we are not hindering
development of all kinds of housing in our country.
Mr. Garbarino. Further, about extending the waiver, is
HUD--are you currently prepared or preparing for possibly
moving forward with rulemaking to either revise or appeal this
regulation, so it does not have to--so----
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We can get--we will get back to
you on that and work with you and your team. I do not want to
get ahead of our Housing Department, but, obviously, we are in
discussions with these things. We are happy to work with you
and keep you abreast.
Mr. Garbarino. Great. Absolutely.
Look, I said extending the waivers is great, but it is a
bad rule, and I think that is why they put the waiver or the
delay in. So fixing it while we still have time is probably a
great idea.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Mr. Garbarino. Again, I am going to change topics again.
If you recall, during the Biden Administration, the FHFA
proposed moving away from the longstanding tri-merge credit
reporting requirement for conventional mortgages. Members of
this committee raised serious concerns that such a change would
undermine the safety and soundness of the housing finance
system by increasing underwriting risks and reducing
transparency at a critical point in the mortgage process.
These concerns were further compounded by the likelihood
that weakening this standard would ultimately raise borrowing
costs for consumers as lenders would be forced to price in
greater uncertainty and risk.
As you know, FHA loans continue to rely on tri-merge credit
report as the gold standard for underwriting. Maintaining this
requirement serves an important prudential guardrail to protect
both market stability and consumers.
Do you agree, Mr. Secretary, that the tri-merge credit
report requirement continues to serve as a critical prudential
safeguard for both consumer protection and systemic stability
in the FHA and broader mortgage markets?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Garbarino. That is great to hear.
I have--it will take me longer than 15 seconds to read my
next question, so I am just going to submit it to you in
writing, but it has to do with--FHA issued a draft FHA mortgage
e-letter about mortgage servicers and sub-servicers.
So thank you, sir.
Secretary Turner. Okay.
Mr. Garbarino. I am going to submit that in writing to you.
Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
I yield back, Chairman.
Secretary Turner. Appreciate you.
Ms. De La Cruz [presiding]. The gentleman from North
Carolina, Mr. Moore, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Moore. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Glad to have you here with us
today.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moore. In western North Carolina communities are still
grappling with the devastation that was caused by Hurricane
Helene back in 2024. The storm damaged or destroyed more than
74,000 homes and caused an estimated $15.4 billion in housing
losses in North Carolina alone.
For most families in these mountain communities flood
insurance was not an option. When you think about it, if you
are on a mountain, you do not generally think of floods,
although I think it is important people understand this: A
landslide is actually considered a flood event, as you know,
which a lot of people did not know that.
As a result of the lack of the flood insurance, the
Community Development Block Grant Disaster Recovery Program has
become the primary Federal resource for rebuilding homes. So
for these folks, time matters.
So I want to first of all, Mr. Secretary, thank you and
thank the President for moving so quickly to get disaster
recovery resources to work in North Carolina.
I think it is also worth noting the first trip that the
President took when he took office January of last year was to
North Carolina. It was an honor to accompany him there. He told
the folks that I represent and others represent he would be
back, and he has kept that. I have got to say, Mr. Secretary,
your agency has also stepped up but under the previous
administration, the CDBG-DR funds took years to move from
congressional appropriation to actual construction.
So I know you all are working on trying to deal with this,
getting those funds deployed, but what are you finding are the
primary causes of delay in getting those funds from the
appropriation construction to getting it actually from here
essentially to there where folks need it?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir and thank you. I have been to
North Carolina to visit the families there. That was one of the
first trips that I took in my time when I was confirmed here
and grateful for those families. I did see a resiliency that I
had not seen in a long time. I am grateful for the American
people in North Carolina.
It is processes, and we have been working on streamlining
our processes here. As you know, we have got $12 billion in
CDBG-DR out. We have a great team in our CPD office that is
very intentional about streamlining the processes of getting
the funds out the door to the people who need them.
Mr. Moore. What steps has HUD taken to streamline those
approvals and to reduce the administrative burden on the States
and localities?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
We are taking out all the duplicative processes, where only
those processes that are needed. We have a tremendous team to
help people along the way in the process that may have
questions. We are always available to walk people through that
process where, before, I do not think that was available, which
was a backlog, if you will, in resources getting out of the
door.
So, again, we have a tremendous team in Continuing
Professional Development (CPD0, and that is the reason why you
see resources going out in an expeditious manner.
Mr. Moore. One of the longstanding frustrations--again, we
are talking about the past--has been the lack of transparency
and consistency as well. It seems like every disaster brings a
new set of rules, waivers, requirements, and you have these
local governments, and you have individuals who are just
trying--they just want to get rebuilt.
What methodology, if you know, does HUD use when
determining these allocations?
Secretary Turner. The methodology to determine allocations
for CDBG?
Mr. Moore. Correct.
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir. We do have a process, as you
know, and our team, I am happy to have them talk with you and
your team. They can walk you through this step by step so that
you have a greater understanding.
We are trying to make that process easier, as we speak, for
the people that receive these grants because that has been a
problem in time past, but I believe that now it is becoming
simpler. It will continue to be worked on, so the methodology
is simple for everybody that applies or receives these grants.
Mr. Moore. I know you all--my understanding is you all are
sharing more data now with--between--from HUD with the Federal
Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and also with SBA to improve
the efficiency as well.
I know one of the--the frustration, I know, always is get
the money out now, now, now, but we also have to guard against
the waste, the fraud, and the abuse.
Secretary Turner. Absolutely.
Mr. Moore. I applaud the administration's efforts in doing
that as well.
Beyond disaster recovery, housing affordability remains one
of the most pressing issues that we have. Home ownership is
increasingly out of reach and communities continue really to
struggle with a housing shortage driven by years of
underbuilding.
What reforms do you think would allow, like, the program,
the HOME program to support housing production more
effectively?
Secretary Turner. Yes, sir.
We have to bring down regulations, number one, from a
Federal and a local, State standpoint. When you bring
regulations down, it brings the cost down. When the cost is
down, it helps us to build more supply. We have a supply issue
in our country.
So we have been very intentional, and you see the President
is taking very bold steps to working on housing affordability
and so all of our programs are under analysis and review to
make sure to help us to accomplish the mission at HUD.
Mr. Moore. Great. Well, thank you for doing that.
My time has expired.
I appreciate the good work that you are doing and next time
you are in North Carolina, let me know. I will treat you to
some barbecue. I will not ask you which one is your favorite,
but it will be my treat.
Secretary Turner. All right.
Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
With that, Madam Chair, I yield back.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Ms. De La Cruz. Thank you so much.
I would like to thank Secretary Turner for coming in for
his testimony today, but I would also like to trump Mr. Moore
down there and invite you back down to south Texas to have some
real barbecue.
Secretary Turner. Yes, ma'am.
Mr. Moore. Now, wait a minute.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
Mr. Moore. You have gone to meddling now, Madam Chair.
Ms. De La Cruz. Without objection, all members will have 5
legislative days to submit additional written questions for the
witness to the chair. The questions will be forwarded to the
witness for his response.
Secretary Turner, please respond no later than February 25,
2026, and I will see you in Texas.
[The information referred to can be found in the appendix.]
This hearing is adjourned.
Secretary Turner. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 2:52 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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