[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                          LEGISLATIVE HEARING
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND 
                               INVESTIGATIONS

                                 OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 2026

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-52

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       

                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                               __________
                               
                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63-815                    WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================                    
                   
                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina        Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas               DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
JEN KIGGANS, Virginia                MAXINE DEXTER, Oregon
ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                 HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
    Mariana Islands
TOM BARRETT, Michigan

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

              SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS

                   JEN KIGGANS, Virginia, Chairwoman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois, Ranking 
    American Samoa                       Member
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York
KEITH SELF, Texas                    HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.
                         
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 2026

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Jen Kiggans, Chairwoman............................     1
The Honorable Delia Ramirez, Ranking Member......................     2
The Honorable Mark Takano, Ranking Member, Full Committee........     5

                         SPEAKING FROM THE DAIS

The Honorable Jack Bergman, U.S. House of Representatives, (MI-
  01)............................................................     6
The Honorable Nikki Budzinski, U.S. House of Representatives, 
  (IL-13)........................................................     7
The Honorable Nancy Mace, U.S. House of Representatives, (SC-01).     8
The Honorable Timothy Kennedy, U.S. House of Representatives, 
  (NY-26)........................................................     9
The Honorable Kimberlyn King-Hinds, U.S. House of 
  Representatives, (MP-01).......................................    10
The Honorable Keith Self, U.S. House of Representatives, (TX-03).    10

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel I

Dr. Ilse Wiechers, Acting Deputy Assistant Under Secretary for 
  Health for Patient Care Services, Veterans Health 
  Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs............    11

        Accompanied by:

    Mr. Rondy L. Waye, Executive Director, Human Capital 
        Programs, Office of the Chief Human Capital Officer, 
        Human Resources and Administration, U.S. Department of 
        Veterans Affairs

    Mr. Jeffrey Neil, Associate Executive Director, Technology 
        Acquisition Center, The Office of Acquisitions, 
        Logistics, and Construction, U.S. Department of Veterans 
        Affairs

                                Panel II

Mr. Cole Lyle, Director, Legislative Affairs Division, The 
  American Legion................................................    21

Mr. Joseph Avila, Administrator, Sterile Processing Department, 
  University of Virginia Health System...........................    23

Ms. Brittany Madni, Executive Vice President, Economic Policy 
  Innovation Center..............................................    24

Sgt. Dennis Guerrero, Vice President, Local 3511, American 
  Federation of Government Employees.............................    26

                                APPENDIX
                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses

Dr. Ilse Wiechers Prepared Statement.............................    37
Mr. Cole Lyle Prepared Statement.................................    65
Mr. Joseph Avila Prepared Statement..............................    79

                          APPENDIX--continued

Ms. Brittany Madni Prepared Statement............................    86
Sgt. Dennis Guerrero Prepared Statement..........................    96

                       Statements For The Record

U.S. Government Accountability Office Prepared Statement.........   101
National Alliance to End Homelessness Prepared Statement.........   119
National Homelessness Law Center, National Health Care for the 
  Homeless Council, National Health Law Program, Funders Together 
  for Housing Justice, and Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
  Prepared Statement.............................................   121
National Coalition for Homeless Veterans Prepared Statement......   124
Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA) and American 
  Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) Prepared Statement................   130
Center for Procurement Advocacy Prepared Statement...............   138

 
                          LEGISLATIVE HEARING

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 2026

             Subcommittee on Oversight and 
                            Investigations,
                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                             U.S. House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Jen Kiggans 
[chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Kiggans, Radewagen, Ciscomani, 
Self, Ramirez, Kennedy, and Conaway.
    Also present: Representatives Bergman, Mace, King-Hinds, 
Takano, and Budzinski.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF JEN KIGGANS, CHAIRWOMAN

    Ms. Kiggans. Good afternoon. This legislative hearing of 
the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigation will now come 
to order.
    Before we begin, I would like to thank all of the members 
and witnesses testifying at today's hearing. I would also like 
to welcome the members present from the Subcommittee on 
Technology Modernization who will be joining us today to 
discuss their bills. With that, I ask unanimous consent that 
all non-subcommittee members be waved on to speak on the bills 
from the dais. Hearing no objection, we will move forward.
    Today's hearing will examine 12 bills covering a wide range 
of issues, all aimed at strengthening accountability, improving 
care, and ensuring the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) 
delivers on its commitments to those who served. These bills 
address critical areas, including oversight of VA operations, 
protection of veterans data, workforce retention and 
accountability, small business opportunity, payment reform, and 
improvements to the quality and safety of healthcare veterans--
the quality and safety of the healthcare veterans receive every 
day. While each proposal plays an important role, I want to 
focus on a few bills before us today that highlight exactly 
what is at stake if the VA fails to meet the standard our 
veterans deserve.
    First, my bill, the Veteran Infection Prevention Act, gets 
at the heart of patient safety. This legislation responds 
directly to a pattern of serious and well-documented failures 
within VA's sterile processing protocols, failures that have 
led to catastrophic consequences for veteran patients and need 
to be fixed. At facilities like the Dublin VA Medical Center 
findings show that lapses in oversight and breakdowns in 
sterile processing protocols created unacceptable risk to 
patient safety.
    These cases and many others demonstrate that this is not an 
isolated issue, but a systemic one. They demonstrate the urgent 
need for reform and reinvestment in the VA's workforce, 
particularly in the roles operating behind the scenes, those 
that, if they are not done properly, can have serious 
consequences for patient care. My bill is about ensuring that 
Sterile Processing Technicians (SPT) are properly trained, 
properly supported, and held to the highest standards so that 
no veteran is ever again put at risk due to preventable 
failures in the system. As a former nurse practitioner, I take 
this responsibility seriously.
    I also want to highlight the VA Site Neutral Payment Act 
led by my colleague and friend Dr. Miller-Meeks. This bill 
addresses a long-standing inefficiency in how veterans' care is 
reimbursed, where the same service can cost dramatically 
different amounts depending solely on where the veteran goes 
for care due to oversight regulations. By moving forward site 
neutral payments, we can eliminate unnecessary cost 
disparities, promote fairness, and ensure taxpayer dollars are 
being used responsibly without compromising the quality the 
veterans receive--the quality of care the veterans receive.
    I also want to recognize General Bergman's legislation to 
strengthen financial oversight at the VA. Empowering the VA's 
Chief Financial Officer (CFO) and improving financial 
transparency is essential if we are serious about 
accountability and restoring trust in how taxpayer dollars are 
managed.
    Finally, I want to acknowledge Representative Self's bill, 
the VA Bonus and Relocation Recovery Act. This legislation 
closes a loophole that allows former VA employees to avoid 
repaying bonuses, awards, or relocation expenses that should 
have never been paid in the first place. By extending the VA's 
recoupment authority to former employees, this bill helps 
ensure taxpayer dollars are protected and accountability does 
not end when someone leaves government service.
    I want to thank our witnesses again for being here today 
and I look forward to our discussion.
    I now recognize Ranking Member Ramirez for her opening 
remarks.

       OPENING STATEMENT OF DELIA RAMIREZ, RANKING MEMBER

    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chair Kiggans. I want to first 
start by thanking your staff for their collaboration on the 
bills that were prepared for today's legislative hearing. I am 
pleased that we have found areas where we can work together and 
improve VA functions and its delivery of care and benefits to 
veterans.
    I first want to go ahead and start off by also 
congratulating American Federation of Government Employees 
(AFGE) for its monumental win in court 2 weeks ago that 
resulted in the reinstatement of their Collective Bargaining 
Agreement (CBA) with the VA. We know we say this often, 
especially in Chicago, when we fight, we win. We also know that 
the fight is far from over. I want to make sure that I tell you 
that I am in the fight with you every step of the way to ensure 
that workers have the resources they need to continue to show 
up for our veterans.
    The past year demonstrated Secretary Collins' race to the 
bottom. He created and celebrated toxic workplaces and 
demoralizing conditions. He demeaned and disrespected VA 
employees. He attacked bargaining rights and could not even 
comment on the murder and criminalization of one of his very 
own employees by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) 
and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP). The 
administration wants to take bargaining rights away because 
they know that those rights offer every employee the ability to 
speak truth to power, to voice unpopular opinions, to demand 
dignity as in labor, to ensure the resources needed to do the 
job well, and to defend workers or veterans when they are being 
abused. We know that collective bargaining rights help us 
recruit. They help us hire, retain best in class workforce, to 
provide our veterans best in class service and care.
    You see, when unions collectively bargain, they contract 
terms that will benefit all VA employees, even those that are 
not in a union. That is why I am so proud of there are bills on 
today's agenda that would strengthen protections and benefits 
for VA workers.
    I introduced H.R. 7948, the VA Employee Family Care 
Expansion Act, that would enshrine in statute the right for VA 
employees to use family and medical leave to care for their in-
laws, their family. Congresswoman Bynum introduced the 
Supporting VA Families Act, which would also restore the 
guaranteed right to use 4 additional weeks of unpaid leave 
after welcoming a new child, whether by birth, by adoption, or 
foster care. We know that those 4 extra weeks can be critical 
for paternal bonding or handling unexpected health issues that 
may arise after welcoming a newborn. Congresswoman Bynum's and 
my bill would restore basic worker rights that were stripped 
after Secretary Collins illegally terminated collective 
bargaining agreements at the VA.
    I want you to see this slide here, this board. This is a 
real slide from the VA supervisor training for how to handle 
employee issues after the collective bargaining agreements were 
terminated. It reads, as you can see here, quote, ``No 
additional 4 weeks of leave without pay or substitute paid 
leave for maternity/paternity leave in addition to Family 
Medical Leave Act (FMLA) family member no longer includes 
parents of an employee's spouse, previously a contractual 
right,'' end quote.
    That is unacceptable. For the self-proclaimed pro family 
party, there is nothing pro family about what Secretary Collins 
is doing to VA employees and you can see that right here in 
writing from the VA's own training for supervisors. Now, I will 
not steal Congressman Kennedy's thunder, he will talk to you 
about his bill in just a few moments, but I want to make sure 
that we ensure that veterans and others have workforce 
opportunities.
    Last, Ranking Member Budzinski's VA Data Accountability for 
Third Party Actors (DATA) Act, which would prevent third-party 
vendors partnered with VA for monetizing or misusing veterans 
data.
    Turning to the majority's bills, I appreciate there are 
bills on the agenda that our staffs are working together on to 
move forward in a bipartisan manner. I know that the Veterans 
Care Protection Act was pulled off the agenda and it was 
replaced with H.R. 7950, a bill to codify VA's Office of 
Congressional and Legislative Affairs (OCLA).
    I could not agree more than that the OCLA is in desperate 
need of reform because, frankly, the lack of transparency and 
accountability for the office tasked with communicating with 
Congress has been appalling. When I get responses to my letters 
or requests for information, which, unfortunately, is pretty 
rare, my questions mostly go unanswered.
    I have heard that the average wait time for casework 
through the VA congressional Liaison in OCLA is 105 business 
days. That is a 5-month waiting period for casework-based 
congressional inquiries. I look forward to continued 
discussions with the majority on this bill and how we can work 
together to compel the VA to provide us the answers we are owed 
as we fulfill our oversight responsibilities to the American 
people and to veterans.
    I want to make a few comments about the VA's new harmful 
guardianship initiative. Chair Kiggans, I appreciate your 
staff's willingness to work with mine before any bill is 
introduced to give VA any additional authority related to 
guardianship of veterans. Two weeks ago, Pam Bondi and 
Secretary Collins signed the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) 
that authorizes the appointment of VA attorneys as special 
assistant U.S. attorneys who can petition State probate courts 
of guardianship of veterans. I have received pages and pages of 
whistleblower documents that clearly show VA's true intent 
here: to target homeless veterans.
    Bondi and Collins' actions are all about Project Safe 
Harbor, an initiative through which VA plans to try to 
weaponize the guardianship system to force homeless and at-risk 
veterans into treatment. Their actions are intended to appease 
Trump. Last year, he issued an executive order calling for his 
agencies to force people experiencing homelessness into 
institutions against their will. Weaponizing guardianship and 
institutionalizing veterans will do nothing to address the root 
causes of homelessness in our country and, in fact, would lead 
to worse outcomes for the most vulnerable veterans in in our 
Nation. I am very concerned about what VA is doing here and how 
Secretary Collins is sidestepping Congress to work with Pam 
Bondi to undermine the freedom of veterans. I look forward to 
performing extensive oversight on this issue with you, Chair.
    Finally, I would be remiss if I did not mention the 
continued unsustainable attrition at the VA. I think it is 
important I revisit these numbers every time we are in the 
subcommittee. In January alone, a net of 195 physicians and 140 
registered nurses left the agency. We cannot quit talking about 
this. I want to continue doing my part in oversight and hold 
the Secretary accountable for the cuts to the workforce and to 
veteran care. I look forward to our conversation together here 
as we, hopefully, do more bipartisan work to center everything 
we do on our veterans.
    With that, Chairwoman, I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Ranking Member Ramirez.
    The chair, as a reminder, may also declare recess at any 
time. I know we have votes at 3 p.m., so we may need to recess 
then.
    I would like to now recognize Ranking Member Takano for any 
remarks he might have.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF MARK TAKANO, RANKING MEMBER, FULL 
                           COMMITTEE

    Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chairwoman Kiggans, for extending 
this opportunity and also Ranking Member Ramirez.
    I echo Ranking Member Ramirez' congratulations to AFGE for 
their win in court a few weeks ago. Judge DeBose rightly found 
that AFGE's claims defending union rights are likely to succeed 
on their merits and that Secretary Collins is causing 
irreparable harm to VA employees. I look forward to VA 
following the law and swiftly reinstating this collective 
bargaining requirement--bargaining agreements.
    Now, Chair Kiggans, I commend you and your staff for 
pulling the Veterans Care Protection Act from today's agenda 
while we wait to get more information from VA about Project 
Safe Harbor and VA's Memorandum of Understanding with the 
Department of Justice. Now, I have to say I was shocked to see 
VA double down on its request for this authority by including 
it in its testimony for this hearing, which is why I am here to 
comment.
    VA has spent the last few weeks trying to cover up its 
plans to force homeless veterans into guardianship to carry out 
President Trump's executive order that calls for locking 
veterans away instead of getting them the help they need. That 
is the crux of what Project Safe Harbor and the Memorandum of 
Understanding between Collins and Bondi were designed to do. 
This administration continues to prioritize handcuffs and jail 
cells instead of getting to the root of what really causes 
homelessness in America: a lack of affordable housing and a 
lack of supportive services for those who need them.
    At last week's full committee hearing, VA tried to assure 
us that they are no longer planning to round up homeless 
veterans off the street and institutionalize them. I asked for 
written confirmation of this change in strategy, but have yet 
to receive it. Even if we accept VA's claim that it is no 
longer targeting homeless veterans with this initiative, the 
Department still has not shown that guardianship will fix the 
underlying problems and how it cares for our most vulnerable 
veterans.
    Now, let me connect the dots. Secretary Collins took the 
helm--since Secretary Collins took the helm, VA closed over 840 
living center beds, community living center beds. VA has lost 
more than 40,000 employees, 88 percent of which come from the 
Veterans Health Administration (VHA). Job applications are down 
45 percent. VA's workforce is shrinking at unsustainable rates 
due to Secretary Collins' hostile leadership, which will 
inevitably lead to more bed closures and decreased access to 
care.
    Housing costs continue to skyrocket across the country. 
What will it matter if a veteran is assigned a guardian if 
there is no place for the veteran to go to, no beds, no 
affordable housing, no community-based facilities? Instead of 
stripping veterans' rights away, VA should focus on actually 
providing care to the most vulnerable veterans.
    I want to read a quote from the late Congressman Claude 
Pepper, former chair of the House Select Committee on Aging. At 
a 1987 hearing, titled ``Abuses in Guardianship of the Elderly 
and Infirm: A National Disgrace,'' he said, quote, ``The 
typical ward has fewer rights than the typical convicted felon. 
By appointing a guardian, the court entrusts to someone else 
the power to choose where they will live, what medical 
treatment they will get, and, in rare cases, when they will 
die. It is in one short sentence the most punitive civil 
penalty that can be leveled against an American citizen with 
the exception of the death penalty,'' end quote.
    Now, that is what precisely is at stake here. Veterans who 
fought for our rights will lose theirs to VA, the agency that 
is supposed to care for them. Sadly, I do not believe VA has 
given the practicality of this initiative much thought. In 
reality, using VA attorneys to petition for veteran 
guardianship creates a bizarre power dynamic and conflict of 
interest in State and county probate courts. VA attorneys will 
be directly advocating against the interests of the veterans in 
their care.
    Even worse, these veterans for whom guardianship is sought 
will likely lack the means or ability to retain their own 
defense counsel to go up against the Federal Government. Now, 
this is not fair to veterans. It is especially unfair when we 
consider what is on the line: a veteran's freedom and autonomy 
to make decisions on their own behalf.
    Now, VA asked for feedback on this proposal and I hope they 
are listening. I want to thank the following organizations for 
educating my staff about all that is at stake with VA's 
guardianship initiative and for submitting statements for the 
record for today's hearing. They are to include the National 
Alliance to End Homelessness, National Homelessness Law Center, 
National Health Care for the Homeless Council, National Health 
Law Program, Funders Together for Justice, National Coalition 
for Homeless Veterans, Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America 
(IAVA), the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Bazelon 
Center for Mental Health Law, and the Consortium for 
Constituents with Disabilities, which includes 18 additional 
organizations.
    Every person, veteran or not, should be concerned with what 
the Federal Government is doing here. VA is intentionally 
misleading the public and will use Project Safe Harbor and this 
MOU with Pam Bondi to strip veterans of their freedom and 
independence. If the Trump-Vance administration is willing to 
take away the freedom of those who fought for our freedom, they 
are willing to take away the autonomy of anyone. This is just 
the beginning.
    With that, I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    The chair now will recognize members for 3 minutes each to 
speak on the bills they are asking to be considered for 
reauthorization.
    The chair now recognizes General Bergman for 3 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF JACK BERGMAN

    Mr. Bergman. Thanks, Madam Chair. Thank you for the 
opportunity to waive onto this hearing to discuss my bill, the 
VA Fiscal Management Modernization Act.
    As the title suggests, this bill would modernize how the VA 
prepares and manages its budget while building on prior 
oversight efforts, like my VA Budget Shortfall Accountability 
Act, which President Trump signed into law earlier this year. 
The Shortfall Accountability Act was prompted by the VA's 2024 
shortfall scare when the Department came to Congress claiming 
that a $3 billion shortfall and the need for supplemental 
funding to avoid disruptions to critical veterans benefits, 
only to later carry over more than $5 billion in unspent funds. 
That bill was an important first step in bringing transparency 
to the budget failures that left Congress, veterans, and the 
public asking how the VA's financial planning had gone so 
wrong.
    Identifying what went wrong and holding the VA accountable 
after the fact is only half the battle. My bill before the 
hearing today, the VA Fiscal Management Modernization Act, is 
about preventing the next failure before it happens. It would 
clarify and strengthen the authority of the VA's top financial 
official by requiring the Secretary to designate the Assistant 
Secretary for Management as the Department's chief financial 
officer and by spelling out that official's responsibilities in 
statute. That designation matters because accountability 
becomes diluted when responsibility is unclear, fragmented, and 
spread to many other offices. This bill addresses that by 
creating a clear chain of command for financial management, 
establishing dedicated leadership for budget strategy and for 
financial operations and internal controls, and requiring 
employees with key financial authority to report exclusively 
through the CFO.
    The bill also creates a Legislative and Congressional 
Budget Information Office whose sole purpose is to provide 
Congress with accurate, timely, and certified budget and 
financial information. This is significant reform. Congress 
cannot conduct real oversight if the information it receives is 
delayed, incomplete, or filtered through offices with competing 
institutional interests. At the end of the day, this bill is 
about accountability, transparency, and making sure the VA has 
the structure in place to get its budgeting right the first 
time. Our veterans deserve a VA that manages taxpayers' dollars 
responsibly, and Congress deserves accurate and timely 
information to conduct its oversight.
    With that, I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    The chair now recognizes Ms. Budzinski for 3 minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF NIKKI BUDZINSKI

    Ms. Budzinski. Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity 
to waive onto the subcommittee.
    There is an unspoken agreement between the VA and the 
veterans it serves during the Department that will protect them 
from harm. In my role as ranking member of the Technology 
Modernization Subcommittee, I have major concerns about the 
privacy and security of veterans' protected health information 
and personally identifiable information. The exposure of this 
data could have a lasting financial and reputational impacts.
    The more connected we become as a society and the more 
interoperable VA systems become, the more we risk exposure. 
Just a couple of months ago, a major Electronic Health Record 
(EHR) vendor disclosed that fraudulent entities were 
addressed--were accessing the records of patients in its system 
and selling patients' data to less scrupulous actors. While 
that vendor is not currently associated with the VA, it is not 
a stretch to imagine that the same thing happening here--could 
happen here.
    Additionally, the exposure of Artificial Intelligence (AI) 
creates a whole other set of concerns. As vendors are given 
access to VA's data, what safeguards are in place? We know that 
even deidentified data is not safe. AI has proven that given 
enough information that technology is more than capable of 
reidentifying individuals. What are the vendors doing with that 
data? Are they turning around and selling it or the product of 
their work outside of the VA? Are they then selling other 
products created using veterans' data back to VA at a premium? 
We owe it to our veterans and American taxpayers to provide 
answers to these questions and more.
    My bill, H.R. 7280, the Veteran Data Accountability for 
Third Party Actors Act, or Veteran DATA Act, will prevent the 
VA from entering into a contract with a third-party vendor that 
permits them to sell or otherwise monetize veterans data. It 
gives the Secretary 1 year to ensure that all of the VA's 
relevant contracts have been modified to ensure the veterans 
are prevented from selling or otherwise monetizing veterans' 
personal information. It also requires that the Secretary 
develop policies to instruct employees on how to recognize when 
contractors are monetizing veterans' personal information.
    Finally, the Veteran DATA Act requires VA to provide a 
report to Congress detailing the clause added to all VA 
contracts, guidance provided to VA employees, and any other 
relevant information. I want to thank Chairman Barrett for 
working with me on this bill. We owe it to our veterans to do 
everything in our power to ensure that their data is locked 
down and that when it is used, that it is in the service to the 
veterans. My bill does just that.
    Thank you, Madam Chair, and I will yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    The chair now recognizes Ms. Mace for 3 minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF NANCY MACE

    Ms. Mace. Thank you, Madam Chair. Among the 12 proposals we 
are discussing today is my bill, the Veterans Affairs 
Management and Oversight of Software Assets, or the VAMOSA Act. 
This bill would address the VA's lack of a comprehensive 
inventory of its software licenses, leading to duplicate 
purchases, unused licenses, and a significant amount of waste. 
This is money the VA could be spending to better care for our 
veterans.
    In the VA's prepared testimony today, they essentially say, 
do not worry, Congress, we have it covered. We do not need you 
to make us fix our messes. Actually, I think we do. Just this 
week, the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) 
reaffirmed the VA still does not effectively track software 
licenses that are currently in use and does not regularly 
compare the inventories of software licenses that are currently 
in use to purchase records.
    With that, Madam Chair, I yield back. Thank you.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Kennedy for 3 minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY KENNEDY

    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. Chair Kiggans, Ranking Member 
Ramirez, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to speak today in support of my bill, H.R. 8010, 
the VA Police Recruitment and Retention Act of 2026.
    I would like to start by congratulating AFGE on the court-
ordered reinstatement of their collective bargaining agreement. 
Strong labor protections matter because they directly affect 
recruitment, retention, and morale across the VA workforce, 
including the VA police officers, which brings me to my bill, 
the VA Police Recruitment and Retention Act, which would 
prohibit Secretary Collins from downgrading VA police officers 
to lower pay grades for doing the exact same job they are 
already doing. At a time when VA is already struggling to 
recruit and retain officers, we should not be cutting their 
pay.
    To understand why this bill is necessary, it is important 
to understand what VA police officers do every day. These 
officers are responsible for protecting veterans, doctors, 
nurses, and staff inside VA hospitals and clinics, facilities 
that are often open 24 hours a day and deal with everything 
from mental health crises to violent incidents. They are doing 
this job right now while severely understaffed. According to 
the VA Office of Inspector General (OIG), nearly 60 percent of 
VA facilities report police staffing shortages, making it the 
most severe nonclinical staffing shortage across the entire 
Department.
    At the same time, VA is considering downgrading more than 
95 percent of VA police positions by as many as four pay grades 
due to an U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) 
classification review. In Buffalo, a two grade downgrade could 
mean a pay cut of roughly $10,000 a year. Remember, they are 
considering up to as many as four pay grade downgrades. At the 
very moment we are struggling to recruit and retain officers, 
we are about to tell them that they will be paid less to do the 
same dangerous job.
    We are already seeing what happens when staffing is not 
there. In Pickens County, Georgia, a VA social worker was shot 
inside the clinic and later died from his injuries. There was 
no VA police officer onsite, and someone had to go looking for 
an officer during an active shooting situation, something that 
should never happen at a facility serving our veterans.
    If these downgrades go forward, many experienced officers 
will leave for other Federal, State, or local law enforcement 
agencies that offer higher pay. When they leave existing 
staffing shortages will get worse, response times will 
increase, security gaps will grow, and our veterans and the 
healthcare workers who treat them will pay the price. That is 
why my bill is so important. This bill is about recruitment, 
retention, and ultimately safety.
    We ask VA police officers to protect the people who serve 
this country. We must make sure we are not cutting their pay 
while they are being asked to do more with less.
    I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    The chair now recognizes Ms. King-Hinds for 3 minutes.

               STATEMENT OF KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS

    Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you, Chairwoman Kiggans, for the 
opportunity to speak on a critical new piece of legislation 
that I am proud to lead, H.R. 7795, the Veterans Affairs 
Subcontractor Competition and Opportunity Network Act, also 
called the VA SUBCON Act. At its core, this bill addresses a 
simple but significant oversight gap within the Department of 
Veterans Affairs.
    Today, while the VA sets goals for contracting with 
veteran-owned and service-disabled veteran-owned small 
businesses, we lack clear visibility into how subcontracting 
decisions are actually made. Too often, large prime contractors 
rely on the same group of preferred partners, which leaves many 
qualified veteran-owned businesses without a meaningful 
opportunity to compete and grow. This is not just a missed 
opportunity, it is a structural barrier, one coming from the 
Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI) that I am 
all too familiar with.
    The VA SUBCON Act offers a straightforward and low-cost 
solution. It directs the VA to establish a centralized vetted 
data base of certified veteran-owned small businesses that 
government contractors can access when developing their 
subcontracting plans. By making this information available at 
the right time during the solicitation process, we can expand 
access while increasing competition and ensuring subcontracting 
goals are more than just a box to check.
    Importantly, this bill uses resources and includes a sunset 
provision ensuring accountability and allowing Congress to 
evaluate its effectiveness. This is about transparency, it is 
about fairness, and it is about making sure that the businesses 
owned by those who served our country have a real opportunity 
to succeed.
    I urge my colleagues to support H.R. 7795. Together, let us 
make sure our vets are not just thanked for their services, but 
truly support it when they run small businesses.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Self for 3 minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF KEITH SELF

    Mr. Self. Thank you, Chairwoman, for the opportunity to 
speak on behalf of my bill. H.R. 7319, the VA Bonus and 
Relocation Recovery Act.
    Currently, the VA is authorized to report--to recover 
bonuses, awards, and relocation expenses that should not have 
been paid to VA employees due to misconduct or poor 
performance. Unfortunately, the statutory authority only 
applies to current VA employees and does not clearly extend to 
individuals who have already separated from the Department. 
That means a VA employee who engaged in misconduct, received 
taxpayer-funded bonuses or relocation payments that they should 
not have received and then separated from the Department on 
their own volition may be able to keep that money. This is a 
failure in responsible stewardship of taxpayer dollars.
    These are not insignificant funds. For Fiscal Year 2020 
through 2023, VA OIG identified at least 17.5 million in 
incentive payments that should have been subject to debt 
collection, with an additional 4.6 million in improper 
retention payments that should warrant recoupment. My bill, the 
VA Bonus and Relocation Recovery Act, corrects this. It 
clarifies that the VA's authority to recoup bonuses and awards 
extends to former employees.
    Second, I would like the opportunity to speak on behalf of 
my bill, H.R. 7950. It addresses the persistent and bipartisan 
concern the Department of Veterans Affairs is too often 
struggling to provide Congress with timely and complete 
information. That breakdown does not just affect this 
committee, it affects our ability to serve veterans. When 
Congress cannot get clear answers, oversight suffers and the 
issues veterans face take longer to fix.
    Too often this committee has encountered delays, incomplete 
responses, or filtered information. This slows down our work 
and it limits our ability to act and allows known problems to 
persist longer than they should. This bill would restructure 
and codify the Department of Veterans Affairs' Office of 
Congressional and Legislative Affairs. In order to facilitate a 
better flow of information between the VA and Congress, a clear 
structure and lines of responsibility will be established.
    I ask for my colleagues to support both of these bills and 
I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    Before hearing their testimony, I want to introduce the 
witnesses on today's first panel. Since they just called votes, 
what we will do is we will introduce the panel and then we will 
recess for votes and then return.
    Representing the Department of Veteran Affairs, we have 
Ilsa Wiechers, Acting Deputy Assistant Under Secretary for 
Health for Patient Care Services, Veterans Health 
Administration. Dr. Wiechers is accompanied by Mr. Rondy Waye, 
executive director, Human Capital Programs, Office of the Chief 
Human Capital Officer, Human Resources Administration; and Mr. 
Jeffrey Neil, associate executive director, Technology 
Acquisition Center, Office of Acquisition, Logistics, and 
Construction.
    I will ask the witnesses on the panel to please stand and 
raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. Let the record reflect that all 
witnesses answered in the affirmative. You may be seated.
    We will go ahead and recess now for votes and we will 
return and then we will recognize the witnesses.
    [Recess.]
    Mr. Ciscomani. [Presiding.] Thank you. Thank you, Members, 
and thank you to the witnesses for being here.
    Mr.--I am sorry, Dr. Wiechers, you are recognized for 5 
minutes to provide your testimony on behalf of the Department 
of Veteran Affairs.

                   STATEMENT OF ILSE WIECHERS

    Dr. Wiechers. Chairwoman Kiggans, Ranking Member Ramirez, 
and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity 
to share the Department's views on the legislation before you 
today. I am joined today by Mr. Rondy Waye, executive director, 
Human Capital Programs; and Mr. Jeffrey Neil, associate 
executive director, Technology Acquisition Center at the VA. In 
the interest of time, my remarks will focus on seven bills with 
fuller analysis provided in our written statement.
    First, the VA Subcontractor Competition and Opportunity 
Network Act. VA supports the bill's intent, but has concerns 
about potential duplication with U.S. Small Business 
Administration (SBA) mechanisms and the risk of unintentionally 
excluding qualified veteran-owned and service-disabled veteran-
owned small businesses.
    On sterile processing technicians' certifications, VA 
supports the goal of strong sterile processing practices, but 
notes that legislation is unnecessary because VA already has 
authority to set qualifications and certification expectations.
    Turning to modifying the rate of pay under the Veterans 
Community Care Program, VA must express significant concerns. 
Implementing location-specific rates would require 
renegotiating thousands of agreements and major operational and 
Information Technology (IT) changes potentially affecting 
provider participation, payment timeliness, and clarity for 
veterans.
    Regarding the FMLA expansion for VA employees, VA defers to 
the Office of Personnel Management which oversees 
governmentwide FMLA policy.
    On the VA Police Recruitment and Retention Act of 2026, VA 
cannot support the bill as written due to conflicts with title 
5 classification principles and risks of inequitable or 
prohibited personnel practices.
    For the Clarify and Expand Assistant Secretary for 
Management Authority Bill, VA supports the intent subject to 
amendments and available appropriations and is assessing 
potential resource implications.
    Finally, regarding the draft OCLA bill, VA's evaluation 
remains ongoing and the Department will provide its views to 
the committee after the hearing.
    In closing, VA appreciates the strengthening veteran care, 
oversight, and the workforce that serves our Nation's veterans. 
We look forward to continued collaboration as these proposals 
progress. I am happy to answer any questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Ilse Wiechers Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, Doctor, for your testimony. The 
written statement of Dr. Wiechers will be entered into the 
hearing record.
    We will now turn to questions and I yield myself 5 minutes.
    I want to thank you again for being with us and I want to 
just start off with talking about a specific bill here. I am 
proud to have introduced the Vets Collections, Liquidity, and 
Efficiency Accountability for Reinvestment (CLEAR) Act 
legislation focused on the simple but crucial goal, making sure 
every dollar owed to the Department of Veteran Affairs is 
recovered and reinvested into care for our veterans.
    Right now the VA provides millions of appointments every 
year, including care that should be reimbursed by third-party 
payers, like private insurance. Too often, these funds are 
delayed, lost in bureaucracy, and not effectively returned to 
where they belong, back into the care of our veterans. The Vets 
CLEAR Act fixes that. The bill improves how the VA recovers and 
collects revenue, gives the Department more flexibility, and 
ensures funds are properly deposited in the Medical Care 
Collections Fund, and strengthens oversight so Congress and the 
American people can see exactly how these dollars are being 
used. At its core, this is about accountability and results.
    I am sorry. Yep. Doctor, to you as well, how will this bill 
that I just described, the Vets CLEAR Act, which reinvests 
recovered funds into the Medical Care Collections Fund, improve 
patient care?
    Dr. Wiechers. Thank you, sir, for the question. VA supports 
this bill in part because we share the desire that the 
legislation has in consolidating more funds in the Medical Care 
Collections Fund (MCCF), which is more flexible in its ability 
to directly return funds to our facilities, which then can be 
used directly to provide medical care and services for our 
veterans. It does so, that fund has no Fiscal Year obligation 
requirements, and so it is more flexible. That is one of the 
reasons why we are supporting the bill, but with some concerns, 
as we noted in our written testimony.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Great. Thank you.
    Mr. Waye, if I can go to you real quick. If the VA is able 
to recover and reinvest more funding efficiently, as it was 
mentioned, how could that support hiring, retention and 
workforce stability?
    Mr. Waye. Oh, thank you for the question. Certainly, 
anytime we have additional funding, that could possibly go 
toward filling jobs or positions.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Can you expand on that a little bit, please, 
on how--maybe using some examples and how the support can help?
    Mr. Waye. Well, I mean, obviously, again, if we are talking 
about having additional funds that are coming back in the 
coffers, we could actually be able to use that to identify 
where we have critical positions that need to be filled, and we 
can put that money toward setting up a recruitment plan to fill 
positions in those shortage categories.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Mr. Neil, I will squeeze in one more 
question here. Does legislation like this align with broader 
efforts to modernize VA systems and improve financial 
management, and how?
    Mr. Neil. Thank you for the question. If to the extent that 
it returns money and makes money available, whether it be for 
hiring or for acquisition of supplies and services that are 
needed by the agency, then, yes, it does support acquisition in 
the sense that every dollar can go further and dollars that 
would might otherwise not be available become available and can 
be directed toward critical areas that are unfunded at the 
time.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Great. Thank you.
    Now I yield to the Ranking Member Ramirez, and then yield 
to members going back and forth between sides. You are 
recognized.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Congressman. Well, first, I want 
to--I know I mentioned this at the beginning of our committee 
hearing, but I want to once again commend the unions for their 
hard fought win in court ordering the restoration of AFGE's 
collective bargaining agreements. I want to make sure that I 
also put on the record that I urge Secretary Collins to comply 
with this order fully and to reinstate the remaining union 
agreements as well.
    I want to get into the questions. Mr. Waye, my bill is a VA 
Employee Family Care Expansion Act. It codifies the basic right 
of employees to be able to use Family Medical Leave Act to take 
time off to care for their in-laws. My question to you, Mr. 
Waye, is why did the VA eliminate this right? What was the 
rationale?
    Mr. Waye. Thank you. Thank you for the question. Are you 
speaking toward the actual collective labor agreement?
    Ms. Ramirez. I am talking about specifically the Family 
Medical Leave Act that would allow for staff of the VA to be 
able to take care of their in-laws. Why did the VA eliminate 
this right from its workers?
    Mr. Waye. Okay. Thank you for the question. We did not 
eliminate the right. I mean right now employees still can take 
care of their in-laws. They can use sick leave to do that.
    Ms. Ramirez. Give me 1 second, Mr. Waye. I figured you 
would say that, but, in fact, that was not the case. Prior they 
were able to take the time off and now they have to use their 
sick leave, which means that if, in fact, an employee gets sick 
and needs to take time off, the they would not have that time 
in order to be able to take care of their family after. Let me 
ask you a question. The policy did in fact change, right? They 
now can use sick leave, but they are not able to take the leave 
that they were able to deprive, is that right?
    Mr. Waye. Well, they do not have the--right, those are not 
covered by the collective bargaining agreement.
    Ms. Ramirez. Is it the VA's position that, because it is 
specifically to in-laws, that they are not considered family?
    Mr. Waye. No, that is not our position. What we are saying 
is that for this particular one we are deferring to the Office 
of Personnel Management on the bill overall because it is 
something that would apply not just to the VA, but typically 
would apply across the board to Federal employees. Typically, 
when OPM looks at this, they normally do not have carve-outs 
for a Federal organization.
    Ms. Ramirez. Well, let me ask you, Mr.--okay. Mr. Waye, let 
me ask you a follow-up question on this. With the shifts and 
changes, do you have a sense of how many employees this change 
in policy would affect?
    Mr. Waye. No, no, I do not have exactly a number in terms 
of how it would affect because we still--again, the Family 
Medical Leave Act, paid parental leave, and the other leave is 
still available.
    Ms. Ramirez. It does not apply for your spouse's parents, 
correct?
    Mr. Waye. Not for the spouse's parents, that is correct.
    Ms. Ramirez. What I heard you say is that you can just use 
sick leave to care for your in-laws. You know, let me make sure 
that I ask you this question on the record. What happens if 
they exhaust their sick leave? What leave can they use to help 
their family if an in-law has long-term illness?
    Mr. Waye. If an in-law has long-term illness, they can also 
request and receive approval for annual leave. We also have 
leave without pay that is available, that can be requested. 
Those determinations are made on a case-by-case basis.
    Ms. Ramirez. Mr. Waye, can you do me a favor for the 
record, could you try to get me information of how many people 
would be impacted by the policy change? We can follow up later. 
I appreciate it.
    I want to follow up with one of my last questions here 
given time. Mr. Waye, on March 13th, a Federal judge in Rhode 
Island issued an injunction ordering Secretary Collins to 
restore VA's collective bargaining agreement with the American 
Federation of Government Employees. It has now been nearly 2 
weeks and the VA has done absolutely nothing to comply with 
this injunction. Instead, what we are seeing is that the VA 
human resources officials across the country say they are 
waiting for guidance from the VA central office before 
restoring critical benefits and workplace rights to AFGE 
represented employees.
    My question is, Secretary Collins talks a lot about so-
called accountability, but what authority does the VA have to 
defy orders from a Federal judge?
    Mr. Waye. Well, thank you for the question. Ma'am, VA is 
not defying the order. We reviewed the order and engaged the 
Department of Justice, and we were basically working with the 
Department of Justice for guidance on how to correctly 
implement the order.
    Ms. Ramirez. Okay. My follow-up to you is, can you tell me 
specific steps that the VA is taking to restore the CBA for the 
320,000 employees impacted?
    Mr. Waye. Ma'am, right now I am deferring, again, deferring 
to the Department of Justice further guidance. We will continue 
to collaborate with them. Once the determination----
    Ms. Ramirez. You are not able to give me any specific steps 
at this moment?
    Mr. Waye. At this time, we are deferring to the Department 
of Justice.
    Ms. Ramirez. Unfortunate. Okay. Well, thank you. Time is 
up. If we have another round, I would like to follow up. Thank 
you.
    I yield back.
    Ms. Radewagen. [Presiding.] Representative King-Hinds for 5 
minutes.
    Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. First of 
all, I want to say thank you very much for your thoughtful 
assessment of the VA SUBCON Act that I have introduced. This 
legislation is personal to me because there is a lot--you know, 
we have a lot of folks who are returning home who are vets. One 
of the very few economic opportunities that are available on 
the island is a direct result of a lot of this defense 
spending, Department of Defense (DOD) spending--or Department 
of War spending on the Islands to build facilities for the 
Department of War, you know, construction and whatnot. Right? I 
want to make sure that they are able to fully participate.
    What I have been seeing as a trend is that, you know, these 
big primes, they come and build relationship with these small 
subcontractors and emerging small businesses, they just get 
boxed out in perpetuity. This is kind of like the underlying 
thought and the driving, I guess, rationale behind this bill. 
In reading your feedback, you pointed out that you were not 
clear with regards to some of the intent behind one of, you 
know, the exclusions in the bill. Right? I just kind of want to 
have a conversation with that with you.
    One, you are worried that basically excluding any company 
that has ever participated in a joint venture or like the 
Mentor-Protege Program, for example, is going to have an impact 
on unnecessarily excluding types of participation. I guess for 
me, the goal is to prevent large firms from hiding behind joint 
ventures or these Mentor-Protege structures to dominate 
subcontracting opportunities meant specifically for small--
veteran small businesses. I want to work with you to be able to 
further refine and clarify that language to ensure that we 
accomplish that goal.
    I think you also had concerns about the Contractor 
Performance Assessment Reporting System (CPARS) rating 
threshold. Right? If I am understanding you correctly, your 
argument is that a contractor could receive many poor ratings, 
but still qualify with just two satisfactory ratings. I guess 
my intent basically is not to create an elite list, but to 
ensure newer or smaller veteran firms are not locked out 
because they lack performance histories. Because you have 
stated that it is not clear what the intent is behind the 
exclusion, I just want to put that on record and, hopefully, 
work with you to be able to achieve the objective that I am 
seeking with regards to this bill.
    With that being said, I do have a question for Mr. Neil, or 
whoever in the panel who can answer this, and I want to get a 
better understanding from you as to how do contracting officers 
ensure primes are flowing down task orders to their contract 
subcontractors efficiently.
    Mr. Neil. Thank you for the question and thank you a lot 
with the explanation on some of the areas that were unclear.
    Encouraging work to be shared with subcontractors, 
particularly subcontractors that are service-disabled veteran-
owned small businesses or veteran-owned small businesses is a 
part of the responsibilities of the contracting officer. When 
awards are made to other than small businesses, we have 
requirements in the Federal acquisition regulation to encourage 
that degree of sharing the work and trying to develop those 
small businesses. Then we ask for a subcontracting plan that is 
tied to the goals of the agency for specific categories of 
small businesses. We review that plan as a requirement prior to 
the award of a contract.
    Also understand, some contracts really have no or limited 
subcontracting opportunities. For contracts that are going to 
other than small businesses for which there are subcontracting 
opportunities, that is something that we put in the contracts 
to require the development of a plan. We oversee and approve 
the plan and reach out to other agencies, such as the Small 
Business Administration, to assist when we are unsure as to 
what is being proposed to us by the prime contractors.
    I hope that helps you understand that we identify the 
contracts where it is appropriate, we include the clauses that 
are relevant, and then we consult with other agencies who 
assist in the development of those plans.
    Ms. King-Hinds. I am out of time. I yield back, Madam 
Chair.
    Thank you and looking forward to working with you.
    Ms. Radewagen. I would now like to recognize Representative 
Kennedy for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. I would like to follow up on some 
of the issues I raised in my opening statement, particularly 
when it comes to staffing levels, recruitment, and the 
potential impact of these downgrades.
    Mr. Waye, how many VA police officers are currently 
employed across the Department and of those officers, how many 
are currently facing potential downgrades as a result of 
reclassification?
    Mr. Waye. Thank you for the question. We have approximately 
3,700 that are on board right now. The breakout, the number of 
positions potentially impacted by the downgrades, approximately 
900.
    Mr. Kennedy. You said 900?
    Mr. Waye. Correct, positions, impacting up to--impacting a 
couple thousand employees.
    Mr. Kennedy. Just for the record, I want to make clear, 
first of all, thank you for your answer. That is the first 
answer that we have been able to get out of the VA. You know, 
we have heard 95 percent of VA police officers are facing this 
potential downgrade. As you know, the VA conducts exit surveys 
for departing employees. For the 357 police officers, that is 
the number I have, who have left since January of last year, 
what were their top reasons for leaving and were the proposed 
downgrades mentioned in the exit surveys?
    Mr. Waye. Thank you for the question. I do not have the 
specific information with me concerning the actual, you know, 
kind of what they provided in the exit surveys. I will mention 
this, that we have paused any downgrades for these positions. 
We are currently collaborating with the Office of Personnel 
Management, looking at additional options to address, you know, 
the classification and so forth of those positions, and we will 
continue to do that.
    We understand and acknowledge the concerns regarding the 
downgrades. It is not something that we are--we necessarily 
look forward to doing. However, we do have an obligation to 
comply with the Office of Personnel Management classification 
standards and then applicable regulations and laws.
    Mr. Kennedy. Just simply yes or no, because I want to make 
sure I understand what you are saying, are the police officers 
at the VA, are they included in the exit surveys?
    Mr. Waye. I would have to verify that. I believe all 
employees have an opportunity to participate in exit surveys.
    Mr. Kennedy. Okay, good. I would like to see how they have 
classified their reasons for leaving. We have heard that a 
number of individuals are leaving because or considering 
leaving because of the downgrades in salary, being asked to do 
more with less. During these trying times, that is just not 
acceptable. Would you agree that the VA police force has faced 
long-standing recruitment challenges and sustainability 
challenges?
    Mr. Waye. Thank you for the question. Well, sir, I would 
say that there is--it is been--that there certainly--we 
certainly have recruitment challenges. As you know, the 
classification standards apply to other Federal agencies as 
well. We know that is an issue in terms of the grade levels. 
Again, our goal is to continue to collaborate with the Office 
of Personnel Management.
    I know one thing they are looking at now is kind of looking 
at having a review of all of the classification standards. The 
classification standards for the police officers I think was 
last updated back in 1988. There is certainly a possibility 
that that is something that will be reviewed in the near future 
and perhaps have some impact on the outcome of grades.
    Mr. Kennedy. Just as a reminder from my opening statement, 
the VA's own inspector general has reported a severe staffing 
shortage, upwards of 60 percent at VA facilities, the largest 
staffing shortage across the entire Department. Then you add 
that to the fact that we are now downgrading potentially 95 
percent of the police officer positions. Do not you believe 
that that has a major impact on retention and sustainability of 
officers and recruitment?
    Mr. Waye. Sir, I believe, thank you for the question, I 
believe it could--it does have--it could have some impact on 
retention. I will say this. One, we are still hopeful that we 
will not be downgrading 95 percent of our employees. In the 
event that we get to a point where we have to conduct a 
downgrade, then obviously we have grade and pay retention that 
will come into play where employees would not feel, you know, 
an immediate loss in pay and then they have saved pay as well.
    Mr. Kennedy. I am out of time, but I just will say briefly 
that this is not about pay grades, but it is about whether 
clinics and hospitals have trained law enforcement personnel to 
keep veterans, doctors, nurses, and other staff safe.
    I yield back. Thank you.
    Ms. Radewagen. I would now like to recognize Dr. Conaway 
for 5 minutes. Thank you.
    Mr. Conaway. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Ranking 
Member Ramirez, for holding this hearing. Certainly I want to 
thank our witnesses for presenting themselves to us today.
    It is--you know, pay is about how you respect the people 
who work there. There needs to be understanding that these 
systems, these institutions are systems that need everybody 
working and respecting them, the job functions that they have.
    Let me turn to one of the bills being taken up today, 
specifically H.R. 7950, which would codify the Office of 
Congressional and Legislative Affairs, OCLA. It provides a 
number of authorities and functions that the OCLA is to 
perform. Specifically, this bill would ensure timely and 
accurate responses to the House and Senate Veterans' Affairs 
Committees. We know that this office has often struggled to 
provide responses to Congress and this has to be addressed.
    I know our office and in my district has a number--there is 
a lot of casework that comes to us related to veterans who are 
concerned about their benefits and other issues related to 
their service. We rely on the Office of Legislative Affairs to 
help us help the veterans in our district.
    Was this department, was the OCLA impacted by Department of 
Government Efficiency (DOGE) in its reduction in staff 
initiatives or voluntary early retirement authority?
    Dr. Wiechers. Thank you for the question, sir. I am not 
prepared to speak to this bill as the Department is still 
conducting its review and I do not have information at this 
time to address your question specifically. I would be happy to 
take it back and provide you an answer after.
    Mr. Conaway. Well, thank you, Ms. Wiechers. I would say 
that it would appear that this office, as it is currently 
staffed, is simply not able to keep up with the amount of 
requests that come to it. In some cases I am told that it takes 
almost 105 business days to give a response to Congress and 
congressional offices. When we looked up on the website, it 
seems that there are only four people working in that office 
that is going to have to handle casework inquiries that come in 
from around the country. It would seem to me that four people 
are going to have a very difficult time, just with the amount 
of requests that come in through my own office, keeping up with 
the amount of correspondence that they have to provide back to 
districts. You can understand if there are only 4 people there, 
why it would take 105 business days to get these responses out.
    I hope that you will look at it and give some consideration 
to the functioning of that office and how important it is for 
us and our responsibility as Congresspersons to address the 
inquiries that come into our offices no matter what community 
is bringing their issues to us. Particularly when our veteran 
community comes to us, I think there is a particularly 
important responsibility that we have to meet.
    Let me move on to H.R. 7280, the Veteran DATA Act of 2026. 
It would prevent third-party vendors that work with the 
Department of Veterans Affairs from selling, monetizing, or 
otherwise misusing veterans' data.
    Mr. Neil, with the VA granting vendors access to data to 
train AI models, how is the VA protecting veteran data and 
setting parameters on what contractors and their AI tools are 
able to access and be trained on?
    Mr. Neil. Thank you for the question. Let me just say that 
we do support the bill. There are just some issues that I want 
to highlight in my response to your question.
    The risks that you identified there with training on AI, 
let me just say there are a number of things within the Federal 
Acquisition Regulation, within VA policy, specifically 
Directive 6500 and Handbook 6500.6, that address how data that 
is provided to contractors can be used appropriately and what 
cannot be done with that data. From the regulation, from VA 
policy, the concerns with the use of data and the inappropriate 
use of data is pretty comprehensively addressed in existing law 
and regulation. That is how it has been handled within the 
Department, that it is done through contract language. It is 
also done by overseeing the data that is being shared. It is 
just some of the----
    Mr. Conaway. Let me just reclaim my time for a minute 
because I want to ask another question on the record. Are you 
aware of whether or not these DOGE operatives have absconded 
with any of the data in the VA?
    Mr. Neil. Thank you for the question. I am not aware of any 
DOGE employee or other employee that may have absconded with 
data, but I can certainly take that question back and see if I 
can find out.
    Mr. Conaway. Thank you. Please do and get a response to us.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Radewagen. I would now like to recognize myself for 5 
minutes.
    Dr. Wiechers, in your testimony you state that legislation 
is not needed to certify sterile processing technicians, yet 
less than 50 percent of the SPT workforce is certified. If VA 
has this authority, why is it not using it?
    Dr. Wiechers. Thank you, ma'am, for the question. I would 
like to mention first that we agree and are appreciative of the 
intent of this bill and the focus and attention being paid to 
how sterile processing and our staff who conduct sterile 
processing are vital members of our health system and that they 
help to ensure the safety of our patients and our veterans and 
of our other staff.
    I will say that VA does already have authority under our 
policies to oversee certification and education requirements 
for sterile processing. We have an internal VHA certification 
process that is free for all staff to take. That requires 400 
hours of hands-on experience to become eligible to take the 
certification exam and that requires additional annual 
continuing education for maintenance of that certification, 
which is on par with some of the other accreditation programs.
    We also follow the Joint Commission standards as it relates 
to competencies for sterile processing. In so doing, that means 
all of our sterile processing staff must show and prove their 
competency in reprocessing of reusable medical devices under 
direct observation. For our highest risk devices, they have to 
recertify on that--or they have to redemonstrate their 
competency in that every year. Again, that is in alignment with 
the Joint Commission standard.
    Ms. Radewagen. Mr. Waye, how does access to the job 
training and certifications improve VA's workforce and patient 
outcomes?
    Mr. Waye. Thank you for the question. Certainly having 
highly trained folks improve--highly trained employees improve 
their ability to deliver services. We do have some concerns 
regarding having this as a requirement prior to coming on 
board. As most are aware, we compete with a large number of 
medical providers and healthcare institutions across the 
Nation. We found that the more that is required on the front 
end, more folks are screened out who might otherwise be very, 
very qualified to come into the position and also receive their 
certification after coming on board.
    Ms. Radewagen. Mr. Waye, how often does VA recoup bonuses 
from current employees if they have substantiated allegations 
of misconduct or poor performance? Why do you not use your 
authority? Could not those funds be recouped and awarded to 
employees who are more deserving?
    Mr. Waye. Thank you for the question. First, I just want to 
state that our evaluation of this bill is ongoing. We take--we 
only take recruitment action whenever it meets the criteria 
outlined in the statute and in our VA policy. Specifically, 
that is when employees have engaged in misconduct, poor 
performance, or, in the case of relocation expenses, fraud or 
malfeasance. We--that is not something that occurs all that 
often. When it does occur, we take actions. We follow the 
process, which includes due process, an opportunity for them to 
receive a notice outlining, you know, what they have done, what 
we are looking to recoup, an opportunity to reply. Then we 
issue an order and decision, and they have the ability to 
appeal that.
    Ms. Radewagen. Dr. Wiechers, how will Representative 
Ciscomani's the Vets CLEAR Act which reinvests recovered funds 
into the Medic Medical Care Collections Fund improve patient 
care?
    Dr. Wiechers. Thank you for the question. By retaining 
additional revenue funds into the MCCF Fund from Civilian 
Health and Medical Program of the Department of Veterans 
Affairs (CHAMPVA), from our VA-DOD sharing resources, and from 
the False Claims Act, taking those additional moneys and 
putting them into the MCCF allows us to move those funds back 
directly to facilities. Those facilities can then use those 
moneys directly for medical care and services of our veterans. 
It does so in a way that has more transparency and less 
complicated workflows in our accounting and financing, and, 
therefore, gets money to where we need it faster and more 
cleanly and more clearly with greater transparency.
    Ms. Radewagen. Thank you.
    The first panel of witnesses is now excused, and I would 
like to invite the second panel of witnesses to come forward.
    On our second panel, we will hear from the following 
witnesses. Mr. Cole Lyle, the director of the Veterans Affairs 
and Rehabilitation Division in the Washington, DC, Office of 
the American Legion. Mr. Joseph Avila, administrator of the 
Sterile Processing Department of the University of Virginia 
Health System. Ms. Brittany Madni, executive vice president for 
the Economic Policy Innovation Center. Sergeant Guerrero, vice 
president of the American Federation of Government Employees, 
Local 3511.
    I would now like to welcome the witnesses on our second 
panel to the witness table. There you are. I ask you to please 
stand and raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Ms. Radewagen. Thank you. Let the record reflect that all 
witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Thank you all for 
your attendance and testimony this afternoon.
    Mr. Lyle, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony on behalf of the American Legion.

                     STATEMENT OF COLE LYLE

    Mr. Lyle. Well, thank you, Madam Chair, Ranking Member 
Ramirez, and distinguished members of the Subcommittee. On 
behalf of National Commander Dan K. Wiley and the more than 1.5 
million dues-paying members of the American Legion, I thank you 
for the opportunity to appear before you today.
    Across the bills under consideration, one common theme 
emerges: the VA must become a better steward of the resources 
and trust veterans have placed in it. We see this clearly in 
the management of software assets. VA spent roughly 21 billion 
on software licenses and systems between Fiscal Year 2022 and 
2024. Yet a recent GAO report found the Department still cannot 
accurately track how many licenses it uses. According to GAO's 
written testimony, without implementing comprehensive guidance 
for managing the impacts of restrictive software license 
practices, VA is not well-positioned to identify and analyze 
the impact or mitigate any risks they present. The result is 
wasted taxpayer dollars and inefficient operations.
    H.R. 6654 takes a practical step toward fixing that by 
requiring a comprehensive inventory, centralized oversight, and 
annual reporting. With modest amendments to ensure the most 
efficient implementation, we believe this bill will deliver 
meaningful long-term savings that can be redirected back to 
veteran care.
    We see the same need for stronger stewardship over 
veterans' sensitive personal data. In the era of sophisticated 
scams and rapidly advancing technology, including AI that can 
sometimes reidentify anonymized records, veterans are rightly 
concerned about who has access to their information and how it 
is used. The Veteran DATA Act would seek to close gaps by 
prohibiting contractors from selling or monetizing veterans 
data and providing training to assist employees to identify 
this insensitive information. While we support the overall goal 
of the bill, we recommend targeted amendments to avoid 
unnecessary renegotiation of contracts that may already contain 
adequate protections.
    Under 38 U.S.C. 721, the Secretary of Veterans Affairs can 
order a current VA employee to repay all or part of a bonus or 
award if misconduct or poor performance is later discovered. 
However, this authority does not clearly extend to former 
employees who have already left the Department, either 
voluntarily or through termination. There is similar limited 
authority under 38 U.S.C. 723 for recouping relocation 
expenses, but, again, it primarily applies to if the person is 
still employed.
    In practice, once an employee separates from VA, the 
Department's ability to recover improperly paid bonuses, 
awards, or relocation incentives become becomes very difficult 
or impossible. The VA Bonus and Relocation Recovery Act is 
specifically designed to close this loophole. If passed, it 
would explicitly authorize the Secretary to recoup bonuses, 
awards, and relocation from former employees when the Secretary 
determines the payment would not have been made. We support the 
bill also with amendments to strengthen due process and clarify 
the judicial reviews of major adverse actions under title 38, 
include former employees, and shorten the statute of 
limitations as we believe 6 years is too onerous on the former 
employee.
    Strong financial management is foundational to everything 
the VA does. For too long material weaknesses in VA's financial 
reporting have frustrated Congress and undermined confidence in 
the Department's budget requests. The VA Fiscal Management 
Modernization Act would give the chief financial officer the 
clear statutory authority and structure needed to fix these 
long-standing problems. We support the bill, but recommend 
clear lines of reporting be included.
    We also support the underlying goals of the Vets CLEAR Act, 
but recommend clarifying the language to ensure it achieves its 
intended purpose without creating confusion in the regulatory 
process.
    The VA SUBCON Act expanding opportunities for veteran-owned 
small businesses is also a good idea. However, the SBA utilizes 
an existing tool and should be the lead agency on this effort. 
We have further concerns that the specific exclusion of certain 
subcontractors would ultimately be detrimental to the bill's 
stated goal.
    Finally, we strongly support measures to protect patient 
safety and workplace security. Requiring appropriate 
professional certifications for sterile processing technicians 
is common sense, but we recommend a reimbursement of initial 
certification and a time requirement for completion so as not 
to disincentivize recruitment for these low-paying GS 
positions.
    Chairwoman and Ranking Member, the American Legion stands 
ready to work with this subcommittee to refine these proposals 
so they deliver real results for veterans while protecting 
taxpayer dollars and maintaining the highest standards of 
accountability.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify and I look 
forward to taking your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Cole Lyle Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Ms. Radewagen. Thank you, Mr. Lyle. The written statement 
of Mr. Lyle will be entered into the hearing record.
    Mr. Avila, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony on behalf of the Healthcare Sterile Processing 
Association.

                   STATEMENT OF JOSEPH AVILA

    Mr. Avila. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, Ranking 
Member Ramirez, and distinguished committee members. I want to 
thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of 
more than 60,000 sterile processing technicians in the United 
States and roughly the 3,400 positions serving within the 
Department of Veteran Affairs.
    As a veteran and a sterile processing professional, I am 
honored here to speak on behalf of the sterile processing 
professionals and how to improve credentialing and training 
efforts within the VA sterile processing departments through 
the Veteran Infection Prevention Act. Sterile processing is not 
widely understood by the average patient, yet is the foundation 
of surgical safety and directly influences clinical outcomes.
    Sterile processing technicians are responsible for the 
disassembly, kit cleaning, inspection, sterilization, 
reassembly of every surgical instrument used in patient care. 
Although many technicians do not hold advanced degrees, they 
require to maintain deep technical knowledge of more than 
37,000 surgical instruments to perform their work at a high 
level of precision.
    Take, for example, the average hospital with 15 operating 
rooms performs roughly 13,000 surgical cases annually. These 
cases require an average of 450 instruments and big picture, 
that is over 5 million instruments reprocessed in a yearly 
time. That level of complexity underscores the need for 
evidence-based standards, clinical risk mitigation, high 
reliability processes performed by certified technicians.
    Memorial Hermann, where I previously served as a regional 
director, and at the University of Virginia Health System, 
where I currently serve as administrator, they have voluntary 
adopted credentialing requirements. Have seven states that 
require all their hospital and surgical centers. However, these 
standards do not apply to Federal operated hospitals, like 
those ran by the VA.
    While the VA has made recent progress requiring certain 
staff, such as their facility Sterile Processing Services (SPS) 
chiefs, to obtain certification, the rest of the sterile 
processing technicians only are required to complete a online 
training management tool similar to your cybersecurity. These 
modules lack rigor, competency-based assessment, and third-
party oversight provided by accredited certifying bodies. 
Chairwoman Kiggans' legislation requires certification from an 
accredited institution.
    Accreditation is impartial, third party, and sets the 
standards for certification program practices and 
administration. By holding an accredited certification, you 
demonstrate to your employer, your community, and, more 
importantly, to yourself that you have the skills and knowledge 
required to complete your job as defined by the leading 
authority in the credentialing industry.
    Similar to many industries, the surgical industry is 
constantly evolving and so are the surgical instruments. 
Ensuring a culture of safety means that staff are held to the 
same high standards like certification and resourced properly 
through regular on the job training. We believe that all 
sterile processing technicians within the VA should be 
certified and trained on a continual basis. This is why we are 
supporting the Veteran Infection Prevention Act.
    Contaminated equipment exposes veterans to dangerous 
pathogens, costly follow-up care, lengthy delays at a facility 
when contamination occurs. There has been a number of reported 
incidents throughout the VA facilities that have resulted in 
over 1,000 cancellations or delays in treatment and over 4,500 
veterans exposed to Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) and 
hepatitis. Veterans deserve the confidence that they are 
receiving the best care and equipment properly sterilized and 
serviced.
    On behalf of all of the sterile processing technicians, I 
want to once, excuse me, once again thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today. I look forward to any questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Joseph Avila Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Ms. Kiggans. [Presiding.] Thank you, Mr. Avila. The written 
statement of Mr. Avila will be entered into the record.
    Ms. Madni, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony on behalf of the Economic Policy Innovation 
Center.

                  STATEMENT OF BRITTANY MADNI

    Ms. Madni. Thank you, Chairwoman. Chairwoman Kiggans, 
Ranking Member Ramirez, members of the subcommittee, thank you 
for inviting me to testify today on bills to improve the fiscal 
position of the United States Department of Veterans Affairs.
    While I come to you as a budget expert, I am also the proud 
wife of an active soldier in the United States Army, so this 
legislation is personal to me. I hope you perform thoughtful 
oversight of the VA for those who are have served and 
sacrificed.
    Before we can discuss the legislation at hand, we must 
first acknowledge the fiscal situation of the Nation. It is 
dire. We are running a $1.9 trillion deficit this year, we are 
spending beyond our means, and we are currently $39 trillion in 
debt. This raises interest rates, it drags economic growth, and 
it results in inflationary pressures on key sectors, including 
healthcare provided by the Veterans Health Administration. 
Every dollar spent in the veterans' budget function should be 
scrutinized to ensure it is indeed being used for veterans and 
not wasted or lost in bureaucratic morass because the need is 
most certainly apparent given the multitude of challenges our 
veterans face, from mental health struggles to homelessness, 
from job transition to civilian life reentry.
    Since 1977, total actual outlays for veterans benefits and 
services has grown from $18.04 billion to $377 billion in 
Fiscal Year 2025. The rate of growth is notable in the previous 
10 years, and the rate increases only get more extreme in U.S. 
Congressional Budget Office's (CBO) projections for the coming 
decade.
    Of course, spending on veterans is directly impacted by 
spending on defense, with an observable lag time between Active 
Duty related outlays in the defense budget and the shift to 
veterans. Given the likely increase in defense spending due to 
the Iran conflict, it would be prudent for Congress now to rein 
in unwarranted excess spending in preparation for possible 
increases in the coming years.
    I am not suggesting that all outlays are misspent. Many of 
the programs in the VA's budget are essential, such as ensuring 
critical access to mental health for veterans. That is where 
the tax dollars, a finite resource, should be directed. 
However, as outlays increase, so does the risk of fraud, waste, 
and abuse. One such example is a million-dollar expenditure by 
the VA on forcing ferrets to consume alcohol in a forced binge 
for theoretical future research.
    A major part of the problem is that autopilot spending in 
the veterans budget has grown to 69 percent for Fiscal Year 
2026. That means Congress is only reviewing 31 percent of what 
taxpayer money is spent on for veteran services each year. In 
total, the VA comprises only 6 percent of the entire Federal 
budget, but it is responsible for the fourth highest outlays to 
designated susceptible programs, behind only U.S. Department of 
Health and Human Services (HHS), the Social Security 
Administration, and the Department of War.
    Last year, the VA susceptible programs outlaid a total of 
$201 billion to its 7 susceptible programs. Of this, 78 percent 
of that falls into the compensation bucket for VA employees. In 
Fiscal Year 2025, the VA had $867 million in just known 
improper payments for compensation across the agency. No wonder 
the VA is struggling to support veterans while hemorrhaging 
taxpayer dollars. Oversight must be a core component of any 
funding.
    As the VA's budget grows, you would expect to see 
significant outcomes being improved in the veterans' quality of 
life, access to care, and health. That is not the case. 
According to the VA's Office of Suicide Prevention, veteran 
deaths by suicide rates jumped from 2001 to 2023. In 2001, 
there were 23.2 veteran suicide cases per 100,000 veterans. By 
2023, this had jumped to 35.2 per 100,000 veterans. Even at the 
height of the global war on terror, this rate never increased 
above 30. This is, quite frankly, an unacceptable failure.
    Another failure is considerable wait times veterans must 
deal with before getting care at all. It is appalling that 
employees fired for bad behavior are still able to keep their 
bonuses, including relocation pay. That was supposed to help 
push down wait times, particularly in rural communities. 
Instead these individuals have retired and are allowed to keep 
their relocation money even while those who served are stuck in 
line, unable to access critical care.
    That brings us to today's bills. While several of the bills 
would improve the operations of the VA, I will focus my 
analysis on four.
    First, the VA Bonus and Relocation Recovery Act. According 
to the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), the VA was 
assessed as being high risk for improper payments in the 
compensation category for the last 2 fiscal years. There is no 
additional room for overspending or failures here. The VA Bonus 
and Relocation Recovery Act would help close an important 
loophole, enabling the government to recoup dollars given to 
employees who fail to meet their contracts. Otherwise, those 
dollars are lost and there is no opportunity to use them to 
encourage wait list reductions.
    I will also briefly just note that the VA Fiscal Management 
Modernization Act and the bill to establish the OCLA are both 
absolutely essential. It is unreasonable that this committee 
and other committees of jurisdiction, as well as the 
Congressional Budget Office, are unable to gain access to 
necessary budgetary information from the VA in a timely manner. 
Establishing these offices, these responsibilities under the 
chief financial officer, and restructuring OCLA are both 
necessary to ensure that the executive is responsive to the 
needs of you as legislators so that you can perform your 
constitutional responsibilities.
    Finally, I will also say that the bill to modify community 
care rates is a fiscally responsible measure to prevent the VA 
from overpowering paying for medical services and costs under 
the Community Care Program. Site neutral reimbursement rates 
are not only a fiscal saver, but they help veterans by 
promoting consistent access to care and reducing out-of-pocket 
expenses.
    I am more than happy to answer any of your questions, but 
all of these bills will improve the fiscal health of the VA. 
Not one of them will increase direct spending with a measurable 
degree over time and they will leave us better off.
    Thank you.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Brittany Madni Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Ms. Madni. The written statement of 
Ms. Madni will be entered into the hearing record.
    Mr. Guerrero, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
deliver your testimony on behalf of the American Federation of 
Government Employees.

                  STATEMENT OF DENNIS GUERRERO

    Mr. Guerrero. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chairwoman 
Kiggans, Ranking Member Ramirez, and members of the committee, 
thank you for inviting AFGE to participate in today's hearings.
    My name is Dennis ``Sarge'' Guerrero. I am a vice president 
of AFGE Local 3511 at the Audie L. Murphy VA Medical Center, 
San Antonio, Texas. For the past 18 years I have served as a VA 
police officer and have attained the rank of sergeant. I also 
proudly served in the Air Force for 20 years as a Security 
Forces member. It is a privilege to testify on behalf of AFGE 
and the National VA Council.
    Today I plan to focus my testimony on a bill that--a bill 
affecting thousands of VA police officers across the Nation. 
AFGE and the National VA Council strongly supports H.R. 8010, 
the VA Recruitment and Retention Act, introduced by 
Representative Kennedy. This bill will prohibit OPM and the VA 
from downgrading the positions of police officers. OPM's action 
to downgrade VA police officers is a DC way of saying pay cuts. 
It is counter to the VA's mission.
    VA police officers have a critical role in protecting the 
safety of veterans, their families, and VA employees every day. 
VA police officers attend Law Enforcement Training Center 
(LETC) for training and receive specialized training and crisis 
interventions to help veterans from harming themselves and 
others.
    Ninety percent of VA officers are veterans themselves. 
These officers can tap into their own experiences when 
communicating with veterans and understanding the unique 
features of their facilities. This is crucial as VA police 
officers face dangers at work every day. They encounter 
veterans with deadly weapons, under the influence of drugs or 
alcohol, or experiencing Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).
    The plan to downgrade VA police officers is dire when 
looked at with the data gathered by OIG. In Fiscal Year 2025, 
OIG found that 58 percent of VA facilities designated VA police 
as a severe occupational shortage. It is the most reported 
nonclinical shortage. In the field, these shortages harms our 
ability to perform our duties. In some facilities, new, 
expensive security scanning equipment sits unused because of 
staffing shortages. In certain A1 facilities, VA police 
officers can only respond to one emergency at a time because 
there are just not enough officers.
    The staffing problem is also critical for Community-Based 
Outpatient Clinics (CBOC), where the nearest officer is often 
miles away. With the shortage--with the staffing shortage at 
the level it is, VA facilities rely on extensive overtime, 
which leads to the denial of annual leave for officers, leading 
to burnout of those that remain.
    To be honest, morale across VA police is at the lowest it 
has ever been in my 18-year tenure. This is a huge problem. VA 
police officers and new recruits can make a lot more money as a 
new officer in local police departments than the VA. For 
example, in Buffalo, New York, an entry level police officer 
makes $15,000 more a year than a first-year VA police officer. 
Additionally, an entry level police officer in Hampton, 
Virginia, makes $13,500 more a year than a first-year VA police 
officer.
    Staffing shortages, low retention, and poor morale require 
solutions, not pay cuts. H.R. 8010 is a necessary first step to 
stop the exodus of the VA Police Department. AFGE welcomes the 
opportunity to work with the committee on other bills that will 
support VA police officers. These include increased hiring, 
addressing higher wages, and granting VA police officers 6(c) 
benefits. I want to thank Chairwoman Kiggans and Representative 
Kennedy for cosponsoring H.R. 3226, the Law Enforcement 
Officers (LEO) Equity Act, to achieve that goal.
    I thank you and I am looking forward to answering any of 
your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Dennis Guerrero Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you, Mr. Guerrero. The written statement 
of Mr. Guerrero will be entered into the hearing record.
    We will now proceed to questioning and I recognize myself 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Madni, how would you cite neutral payment policies like 
in Dr. Miller-Meeks' bill? How would they affect the 
government's financial state and maintain care standards?
    Ms. Madni. They would absolutely--site neutral policies 
like those in the bill in question today would reduce 
government payments not only in terms of reimbursement rates, 
but it would also have a positive impact on our debt service 
costs, which means that we would have to pay less interest over 
time. You have sort of a dual improvement on our physical 
health. At the same time, you are ensuring that out-of-pocket 
costs for patients are reduced and ensuring that the care 
provided to patients is not going to hinge on where they 
receive that treatment or whether or not the VA is reimbursing 
at an unreasonable rate.
    Ms. Kiggans. Great. Thank you. Ms. Madni, from your 
experience with budgetary policy, can you discuss the benefit 
of the VA Fiscal Management Modernization Act and the creation 
of an office to prioritize congressional requests about the 
VA's budget?
    Ms. Madni. Absolutely. I will just speak to the fact that 
there are not a ton of available data points that we had today 
going into this hearing. The VA failed to provide necessary 
information to the Congressional Budget Office in time to be 
able to produce the scores necessary, the cost estimates 
necessary. That alone is an impediment to this committee's 
ability to do its work. It is an impediment to the entire 
House's ability to do its work. There is no reason that the 
Congressional Budget Office should not be able to get data from 
the VA, just like it is able to secure that data from every 
other department.
    Having a chief financial officer, having a restructured 
OCLA should absolutely improve not only this committee's 
ability to do its job, but your ability to move forward with 
important legislation that helps veterans onto the House floor 
and through the Senate.
    Ms. Kiggans. Great. Thank you.
    Mr. Avila, from your perspective, what are the main 
differences between a certified sterile processing technician 
and an uncertified sterile processing technician?
    Mr. Avila. Thank you for the question. The differences that 
I have seen in the 25 years of my experience is that a 
certified technician has complete competency over workspace 
temperatures that are required for sterilization. They know 
cleaning protocols. They also address chemical safety and 
handling, blood-borne pathogens, microbiology, and know the 
true safety of proper transportation of soiled goods. In 
addition, there have been validated knowledge on regulatory 
alignment and care and safety protocols. Then also provide a 
professional credibility versus the noncertified.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you. Right now, less than half of the VA 
sterile processing technicians are certified. What risk does 
that pose to veterans receiving their care at the VA?
    Mr. Avila. Yes. Having uncertified technicians in the VA 
poses, similar to what I previously reported, the risk of VAs 
having their surgical procedures either delayed or canceled, 
or, as I previously reported that occurred in Georgia, 4,500 
veterans being exposed to HIV and hepatitis.
    Ms. Kiggans. All right. Thank you very much.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Kennedy for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you very much. Mr. Guerrero, thank you 
so much for traveling all the way here from San Antonio, Texas, 
especially during a time of immense loss within your family. We 
are very sorry for your loss.
    I am hoping you could walk us through what you are seeing 
on the ground regarding these downgrades. What are you hearing 
from fellow VA police officers about the proposed changes and 
what has it done to morale?
    Mr. Guerrero. Thank you for your question. Thank you for 
condolences.
    What I am hearing on the ground from my fellow officers, 
you have heard the old saying, rats flee a sinking ship. That 
is we are having right now with VA police and the potential 
downgrade of our levels.
    In San Antonio, we have had four officers leave VA police 
to become ICE officers because of the pay. In the past year, we 
have had 120 officers leave the VA, either retirement or 
finding--or they found other jobs that pay better than what the 
VA does. These jobs, these positions that have been vacated by 
these officers that have left, we cannot--the VA police cannot 
fill them because there is a hold on hiring these. We cannot 
fill these vacancies. Therefore, it is downgrade--it is not 
downgraded, but we have less officers to perform the duties 
that we are required to do to provide the security for the 
veterans and the family members and VA police--and employees at 
the VA.
    The morale has in the last--like I stated my statement, in 
the 18 years I have been a VA police officer, morale is at the 
lowest level it is right now.
    Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Guerrero, if someone today wanted to be a 
VA police officer and applied at your facility in San Antonio, 
what would their starting salary be say at the GS-5 level 
compared to a San Antonio sheriff or Texas State Police?
    Mr. Guerrero. A VA police officer, GS-5, Step 1, their 
starting pay is $41,334. The San Antonio police officer, a 
cadet, starting pay is $56,000. A Bexar County officer, 
starting pay is $61,500, significantly higher than our VA 
police officers. There is a big pay gap from our VA police 
officers and our civil counterparts.
    Mr. Kennedy. If VA cannot compete with starting pay and 
those other law enforcement agencies, why would qualified 
applicants choose the VA police, and especially when staffing 
shortages are leading to slower response times in a hospital?
    Mr. Guerrero. A lot of my fellow officers that I work with 
now, they are on hold right now because they are telling me, 
hey, Sarge, I do not want to leave the VA. I like what I do 
here. I am a fellow veteran. As myself, I decided to be a VA 
police officer to pay forward, to provide security for my 
fellow veterans that are at Audie L. Murphy. I get my care 
there myself. Me, it is a sense of pride for me to become a VA 
police officer instead of going to a civilian law enforcement 
agency where I am just out in the streets dealing with 
everybody. Here I deal with my fellow veterans.
    It is not only a sense of pride to me, but it gives me the 
ability to talk to the veterans and communicate with them, 
especially when they are in times of crisis. For example, there 
was a veteran. Unfortunately, he has passed already. He called 
the VA police desk and talked to my dispatcher, says, I want to 
kill myself. She gave me the phone. I knew who the veteran was 
because I dealt with him in the past because of his mental 
issues. I talked to the veteran. I says, where do you live? Ah, 
Sarge, I am not going to tell you because you are going to call 
the police to have them bring me in. I says, no, I just want to 
make sure you are okay.
    I told my dispatcher, says, look him up. She called San 
Antonio Police Department. They said he is Bexar County 
jurisdiction. I told her call Bexar County, give them the 
address. While I was talking to the veteran on the phone, Bexar 
County showed up. He goes, oh, Sarge. I says, Mike, I need you 
here. I need you to get better for us. They brought him in, we 
talked, and he was okay.
    That is why I do it, because I am a veteran myself.
    Mr. Kennedy. Thank you very much. Thank you for your 
service as well. You have made it abundantly clear our VA 
police officers need to be paid----
    Mr. Guerrero. Yes.
    Mr. Kennedy [continuing]. the way they deserve and earn 
each and every day, especially standing up and being there and 
providing safety for our veterans and healthcare providers in 
those facilities. That is why it is so important that we are 
not downgrading those police officers in any capacity and we 
pass my bill.
    I yield back.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you.
    I would like to ask unanimous consent that a non-
subcommittee member from the majority be allowed to take the 
chair. Hearing no dissent, we will move on to the chair will 
recognize Mr. Bergman for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Bergman. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you all for 
being here. Great to see some friendly faces.
    Mr. Lyle, we will get right into it. Okay?
    Mr. Lyle. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Bergman. It is about financial accountability and 
setting up a system that actually we can see what works. In 
light of the budget shortfalls that prompted enactment of the 
VA Budget Shortfall Accountability Act earlier this year, do 
you believe that VA currently has a sufficiently clear and 
accountable financial chain of command?
    Mr. Lyle. Well, thank you for the question, Congressman. I 
think as you alluded to and in previous Congresses, with the VA 
having to come to Congress and ask for supplemental 
appropriations when there is shortfalls and then carrying over 
$5 billion, I think it is fairly clear that they do not have 
sufficient reporting structures and accountability, 
particularly in this area. I think this bill is a positive step 
in the right direction in establishing those lanes of 
accountability.
    I would like to work with you to identify the specific 
reporting structures and how that looks from facility to 
facility to the chief financial officer. I think this bill is a 
great step in that direction.
    Mr. Bergman. Thank you. Is additional statutory 
clarification needed to ensure one official is unmistakably 
responsible for budget formulation, execution, and financial 
control so there is none of this, it is not the other person?
    Mr. Lyle. Yes, sir. I believe so.
    Mr. Bergman. Okay. Mr. Lyle, how would you--how would 
strengthening financial oversight--excuse me. Guess it is 
almost Miller time. How would strengthening financial oversight 
under the VA Fiscal Management and Modernization Act help 
ensure resources are being used effectively to support 
veterans' services?
    Mr. Lyle. Well, I think ensuring that there is proper 
fiscal management and the authority for Congress to have 
specific points of accountability obviously does a lot of 
things, but I think the most important thing is it increases 
trust in the VA from the veterans that it serves to ensure that 
veterans know that the--and taxpayers, frankly, know that the 
money that is being used to serve veterans is being used 
efficiently and effectively.
    Mr. Bergman. I think what I heard you say, and if you 
disagree with this, I think what I heard you say, that clearer 
financial accountability at the VA will lead to more consistent 
and better services for veterans if we get the structure right.
    Mr. Lyle. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Bergman. Clarity. Okay. Ms. Madni.
    Ms. Madni. General.
    Mr. Bergman. The VA Fiscal Management Modernization Act 
requires certain employees with financial authority to report 
exclusively to the CFO and prohibits them from also performing 
programmatic or operational functions. From your perspective, 
how much of the VA's past budgeting trouble has been driven by 
blurred lines, not the song, blurred lines or confusing solid 
lines with dotted lines, with dashed lines, with no lines, and 
all of that, how has that hindered the financial oversight and 
program management?
    Ms. Madni. It has been a massive hindrance. I would just 
point you back to the data.
    Let me take a step back. It is not just about who is 
responsible for what? It is not just is this a policy decision 
or a financial decision? It is also a question of how these 
things compound over time.
    I ran some numbers for you. The global war on terror 
started in the final weeks of Fiscal Year 2001. Just 25 years 
later, in this fiscal year, outlays are projected to be 867 
percent higher, 867 percent higher, than when we embarked in 
our activities in 2001. The deployment height of the Iraq War 
during 2007 to the 2008 surge explains why veteran outlay 
increases in the subsequent 4 years increased, particularly as 
soldiers returned home after 4-year contracts, and following 
the end of the stop-loss program in 2010. It makes sense why 
you would see certain spikes along this outlay path.
    What does not make sense is that when you start getting 
into 2022, suddenly the spike jumps at an unreasonable rate. 
You see that growth line just shoot straight into the air. That 
is happening even as the veterans population declines.
    Mr. Bergman. We could, obviously, we could--thank you for 
the detail because it is that kind of detail that is going to 
enable us all to get a better view of what is, again, the lines 
of command, if you will, the chain of command and the 
responsibility and the accountability.
    With that, Madam Chair, thank you and I yield back.
    Ms. King-Hinds. [Presiding.] I now recognize Ranking Member 
Ramirez.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chair. I want to get into the 
questions, but first I want to thank the four of you for coming 
to testify in our committee and for all the ways that you show 
up for our veterans. For those of you that are, in fact, 
veterans, thank you for your service. I want to start with Mr. 
Guerrero.
    First, Mr. Guerrero, you heard from my colleague 
Congressman Kennedy, but I also want to be the one to ask you 
to accept my condolences on the recent loss of your father.
    I want to ask you about my bill, the VA Employee Care 
Expansion Act, and Congresswoman Bynum's bill, the Supporting 
VA Families Act. In your opinion and with your own personal 
experience, why do you think it is so important that VA 
employees be given the flexibility to take leave for care for 
their in-laws or for a new child? Is it important for 
recruitment and retention?
    Mr. Guerrero. Thank you for your question. Yes, it is 
important for recruitment and retention. As the VA testified 
earlier, if the employee wants to take care of their parent, 
they can use sick leave. If they do not have enough sick leave, 
they can use annual leave. Annual leave is based on workload 
and staffing. Regardless if it is I am sick or if I had to go 
home and take care of my dad.
    FMLA gives us the opportunity to use annual leave, sick 
leave, or leave without pay with no question. We cannot be 
denied on those three categories for FMLA. If my dad was my 
father-in-law and not being able to take FMLA, it had been 
devastating for me and my wife. If my wife was unable to take 
care of her father because of a physical condition or 
something, or she had to go to work and somebody had to be 
there to take care of him, I would not be able to do it because 
FMLA does not cover in-laws.
    It is important that we get this added to the FMLA for 
myself or anybody else that has an in-law that needs to be 
taken care of by a VA employee, to assist the wife, to assist 
the family. It is important.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Sergeant Guerrero. I really 
appreciate you really getting into the detail of the challenges 
and impacts, which as you have probably heard me ask Mr. Waye 
earlier about. Thank you.
    I want to turn now to Mr. Lyle. Mr. Lyle, I was happy to 
see your support from my colleague, the ranking member of 
Technology Modernization Subcommittee, Rep. Budzinski's VA DATA 
Act. Her bill, as we know, would bar third-party organizations 
from taking veteran data, even if it is deidentified outside 
the Federal enclave, and using it to create tools that do not 
serve the VA. What are you hearing from your members on the 
importance of data--on data privacy, especially as the VA moves 
to work more with external parties to modernize the 
Department's offerings?
    Mr. Lyle. Well, thank you for the question, Ranking Member. 
I think veterans across the country are rightfully concerned 
about how their data is used. My written testimony contains 
kind of a longer explanation of this. There have been instances 
of identity theft, fraud in the veteran community as a result 
of data leaks in the public sector and the private sector when 
it relates to veteran healthcare data. I think one of the main 
concerns, as technology so rapidly advances, is that government 
protections are not keeping pace with that technological 
advancement.
    You know, the VA has said that a lot of these protections 
are currently in place in contracts. I have not seen the 
specifics of those contracts. I think this is an important step 
to ensure that those protections, in fact, exist.
    Ms. Ramirez. That is right. Thank you, Mr. Lyle.
    My last question is for Mr. Avila. Current VA regulations 
already require medical supply techs in the sterile processing 
field to have adequate education and experience to be able to 
complete their job duties. On top of this, the VA also offers 
its own internal VA-specific certifications for these 
technicians. What more do you think your certification provides 
beyond what is already offered within VA? Let me ask you a 
follow-up question, you can answer both. How many hospitals 
external to the VA require certification of this nature?
    Mr. Avila. Yes. Thank you, Ranking Member Ramirez. When 
talking about the certification, it is based in the VA. I have 
no historical knowledge of when that exam was last updated. As 
within my testimony, I mentioned that surgical instrumentation 
is constantly evolving and so similar to the pieces of 
equipment and instruments that we take care of on a regular 
basis, so should the exams.
    What I can say is that outside my third-party 
accreditation, you know, those exams are revamped every 5 
years. It is done by a subcommittee and they are looked at on a 
different and varying basis, always keeping up with the latest 
standard.
    Then you mentioned, also--I am sorry, can you repeat the 
second question?
    Ms. Ramirez. We are out of time. Just for the record, and 
we can talk later, was how many hospitals external to the VA 
require a certification of this nature? We can talk off record 
and I can get that.
    Mr. Avila. Thank you.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you. Chair, I yield back.
    Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you. Thank you to all of our 
witnesses for attending this hearing and providing testimony to 
prove several of these bills and for being incredibly gracious 
with their time.
    As the committee has previously stated, the work in the 
subcommittee relies on hearings like today to advance proposals 
that will make the VA work better for veterans and, ultimately, 
deliver high-quality care without wasting taxpayer dollars to 
fraud and abuse. I want to also say thank you to our colleagues 
on the Technology and Modernization Subcommittee for their work 
to improve the VA's digital infrastructure.
    Finally, thank you to the members who waived on for this 
legislative hearing to speak about their bills and the 
importance of getting things right for veterans. We look 
forward to further discussions on how we may continue to 
improve the proposals that we received testimony today.
    With that, I yield to the Ranking Member Ramirez for her 
closing statement.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chair. Well, I want to thank all of 
the witnesses that came before us today. I know it was a very 
long committee hearing, but it is important work and I look 
forward to continuing to work with all of you to always center 
our veterans in everything we do.
    In closing, I want to also note my own disappointment in 
the answers from the VA today related to basic worker rights. 
The VA is openly defying a court order to reinstate and abide 
by its collective bargaining agreement with AFGE. Secretary 
Collins is disrespecting the court and he is also disrespecting 
his employees. I want to make sure that I put on the record 
that I am going to continue to work as a ranking member of the 
subcommittee to hold him accountable and to ensure that he is, 
in fact, respecting court orders, not just stating or sending a 
note that says that he has seen what the judge has, in fact, 
ruled. We want to be able to see the implementation to that 
court order, and it is the responsibility of this Congress to 
ensure it happens.
    Thank you, again, everyone here, and I look forward to our 
next subcommittee.
    With that, Chair, I yield back.
    Ms. King-Hinds. Thank you again to our witnesses for being 
here. Sergeant Guerrero, safe travels back home. To all of you, 
be safe out there.
    At this time I ask unanimous consent that all members shall 
have 5 legislative days in which to revise and extend their 
remarks and include any extraneous materials. Hearing no 
objection, so order.
    The hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:58 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

?

      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
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                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

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                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses

                              ----------                              


                  Prepared Statement of Ilse Wiechers
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

                    Prepared Statement of Cole Lyle
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                   Prepared Statement of Joseph Avila
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                  Prepared Statement of Brittany Madni
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                 Prepared Statement of Dennis Guerrero

    Chairwoman Kiggans, Ranking Member Ramirez, and Members of the 
Subcommittee:

    Thank you for inviting the American Federation of Government 
Employees (AFGE) to participate in today's Subcommittee Hearing on 
``Pending Legislation.'' My name is Dennis ``Sarge'' Guerrero, and I 
serve as the Vice-President of AFGE Local 3511 at the Audie L. Murphy 
Memorial Veterans' Hospital in San Antonio, TX. I am a 20-year U.S. Air 
Force Security Forces Combat Veteran who proudly served our country 
during Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, Operation 
Desert Fox, and in Albania providing security for Kosovo refugee camps. 
For the past 18 years, I have continued to serve our Nation and my 
fellow veterans as a VA police officer having attained the rank of 
sergeant.
    On behalf of AFGE and its National Veterans Affairs Council (NVAC), 
representing over 800,000 Federal and District of Columbia government 
employees, 325,000 of whom are proud, dedicated Department of Veterans 
Affairs (VA) employees, it is a privilege to testify today. 
Specifically, I plan to focus my testimony on legislation affecting the 
VA workforce, including thousands of VA police officers serving across 
the Nation.

H.R. 8010, the ``VA Police Recruitment and Retention Act''

    AFGE and the NVAC strongly support H.R. 8010, the ``VA Police 
Recruitment and Retention Act'' introduced by Rep. Kennedy (D-NY). If 
enacted, this legislation would prohibit the Office of Personnel 
Management (OPM) and the VA from downgrading the positions of VA police 
officers, retroactive to October 1, 2025.
    OPM's actions to downgrade the positions of police officers, which 
is the bureaucratic way of saying pay cuts, is counter the VA's mission 
``[t]o fulfill President Lincoln's promise to care for those who have 
served in our Nation's military and for their families, caregivers, and 
survivors.''
    VA police officers have a critical and unique role in protecting 
the safety of veterans, their families, and VA employees every day. As 
AFGE has highlighted to this committee during previous hearings, VA 
police officers receive training at the Law Enforcement Training Center 
and additional specialized and tailored training in crisis intervention 
to help prevent veterans from harming themselves or others. Moreover, 
as 90 percent of officers are veterans themselves, these officers can 
tap into their own experience when both communicating with and policing 
veterans, building relationships with the veterans they serve, and 
understanding the nuances of the physical facilities where they police. 
As a fellow VA officer from the Great Lakes Region recently articulated 
to me:

        ``VA medical centers are complex environments that present 
        unique law enforcement challenges. Officers respond to violent 
        incidents, mental health crises, domestic disputes, narcotics 
        activity, and threats against staff and patients.''

    This unfortunately happens across the country. Officers frequently 
interact with veterans armed with guns and knives or under the 
influence of drugs or alcohol.
    This was tragically put in stark relief this month, after a VA 
social worker Nicholas Crews was murdered at a VA clinic in Jasper, 
Georgia, demonstrating not only the bravery and dedication required of 
VA police officers as well as the broad scope of their 
responsibilities.
    The plan to downgrade VA police officer positions in the 0083 
series is even more dire when considered in conjunction with the 
significant staffing shortage facing the VA Police Force. A VA OIG 
report entitled ``OIG Determination of Veterans Health Administration's 
Severe Occupational Staffing Shortages Fiscal Year 2023'' \1\ noted 
that 73 facilities had a severe shortage of VA Police in the 0083 
series, with more common shortages found for only seven positions.\2\ 
An updated 2024 version of the report noted that VA police shortages 
``were reported by at least 20 percent of facilities since Fiscal Year 
2018.'' \3\ This has further worsened in the current Fiscal Year 2025 
report, as the VA OIG states:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ ``OIG Determination of Veterans Health Administration's Severe 
Occupational Staffing Shortages Fiscal Year 2023,'' August 22, 2023. VA 
OIG 23-00659-186.
    \2\ Id at 8.
    \3\ ``OIG Determination of Veterans Health Administration's Severe 
Occupational Staffing Shortages Fiscal Year 2024,'' August 7, 2024. VA 
OIG 24-00803-22 at 10.

        ``In Fiscal Year 2025, the OIG found that 58 percent of 
        facilities (80 of 139) designated Police as a severe 
        occupational staffing shortage, making it the most frequently 
        reported nonclinical shortage occupation and most frequently 
        reported of all occupations. The Police occupation was among 
        the top five most frequently reported nonclinical shortages in 
        each year since 2019, when VHA first made official designations 
        for clinical and nonclinical occupations, and the seventh most 
        frequently reported shortage among all occupations in 2018.'' 
        \4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ ``OIG Determination of Veterans Health Administration's Severe 
Occupational Staffing Shortages Fiscal Year 2025,'' August 12, 2025. VA 
OIG 25-01135-196 at 9.

    On the ground in VA facilities, the shortages referenced by OIG 
also hinder the ability of officers to perform their duties. In some 
facilities, expensive new security screening equipment sits unused as 
there are not enough officers to operate this equipment. There are 
other facilities where only one or two officers are available to 
respond to emergencies. In some cases, short staffing in 1A facilities 
limits response to one emergency at a time. The staffing problem is 
also acute for Community Based Outpatient Clinics (CBOCs) where the 
nearest officer is often miles away.
    Short staffing and inadequate pay harms officer morale. One officer 
recently told me, ``[m]orale across VA is low. [D]owngrading people 
only pushes more people to leave.'' Additionally, with the staff 
shortage at the level it is, VA facilities must further rely on 
extensive use of overtime, which often leads to the denial of annual 
leave for officers, leading to further burnout of the officers that 
remain.
    This is particularly problematic when VA police officers have other 
opportunities to serve in other Federal agencies or in State, county, 
or local police forces that pay starting salaries significantly higher 
compared the planned downgraded GS-5 salary. For example, in Buffalo, 
NY, a GS-5 Step One makes $42,597 annually,\5\ while an entry level 
City Police Officer (Step 1) earns $57,453.\6\ Similarly, a GS-5 Step 
one makes $41,341 in the Virginia Beach Region,\7\ while a Police 
Recruit at the lowest level of the pay scale makes $54,863 in the city 
of Hampton, Virginia.\8\ Severe staffing shortages, low retention, and 
poor morale require attention and solutions, not downgrades in 
positions and pay.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ See GS Salary Table 2026-BU. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-
oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/26Tables/html/BU.aspx
    \6\ See city of Buffalo, ``Department of Police Recent Salary 
Figure Fiscal Year 2026'' at 176 (10 of 23 on linked PDF) https://
www.buffalony.gov/ImageRepository/Document?documentId=14525
    \7\ See GS Salary Table 2026-VB. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-
oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/pdf/2026/VB.pdf
    \8\ See City of Hampton Virginia Police Department Step Plan 
Effective January 10, 2026. https://www.hampton.gov/DocumentCenter/
View/48497/Police-Division-Step-Plan-PDF
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The VA should do everything in its power to recruit and retain its 
police force. While AFGE is pleased that the planned downgrades have 
been ``paused,'' AFGE still fully supports H.R. 8010, the ``VA Police 
Recruitment and Retention Act,'' as it is a necessary first step to 
stem the tide of departures from the VA Police Department. AFGE 
strongly encourages the swift passage of H.R. 8010 to prevent any 
future downgrades from OPM and looks forward to working with the 
committee to pass this bill. AFGE welcomes the opportunity to work with 
the committee on other legislation that would support the VA Police 
force, including increased hiring, addressing higher wages, and 
granting VA Police Officers Federal Law Enforcement Officer 
retirements, commonly referred to as ``6(c) benefits,'' and thanks 
Chairwoman Kiggans and Representative Kennedy for co-sponsoring H.R. 
3226, the ``Law Enforcement Officers Equity Act'' to achieve that goal.

H.R. 7948, the ``VA Employee Family Care Expansion Act''

    AFGE supports H.R. 7498, the ``VA Employee Family Care Expansion 
Act'' introduced by Ranking Member Ramirez (D-IL). If enacted, this 
bill would codify the ability for a VA employee to utilize the Family 
Medical Leave Act (FMLA) to care for the parent of a spouse. AFGE and 
the NVAC had previously negotiated this right into its Master 
Collective Bargaining Agreement, which is currently the subject of 
litigation.
    While no VA employee would ever wish to be in the position to use 
FMLA to care for someone, it is unfortunately something that many of 
us, including myself, have had to do. Sadly, this month, my father of 
blessed memory passed away, and I used FMLA to take care of him and be 
with him in his final days. Having the ability to use this leave was a 
relief to me and my family and didn't force me to make a choice between 
being a son and being a VA police officer serving my fellow veterans. 
Had it not been my father, but one of my in-laws in this situation, not 
being able to use this leave would have been devastating and forced a 
cruel choice for me and my family.
    Passing this legislation and restoring this right to VA employees 
is a commonsense policy that would allow VA employees to better serve 
our Nation's veterans and improve recruitment and retention. AFGE urges 
its swift passage.

Draft legislation to establish an entitlement to a supplemental period 
of unpaid parental leave for employees of the Department of Veterans 
Affairs

    AFGE supports the draft legislation being considered by this 
subcommittee to establish entitlement to a supplemental period of 
unpaid parental leave for employees of the Department of Veterans 
Affairs. If enacted, this bill would codify a VA employee's right to 
four additional weeks of Leave Without Pay (LWOP) for the purposes of 
parental leave following the birth or adoption of a child. AFGE and the 
NVAC had previously negotiated this right into its Master Collective 
Bargaining Agreement, which is currently the subject of litigation.
    Passing this legislation and restoring this right to VA employees 
is a commonsense policy that would allow the dedicated workers who take 
care of our Nation's veterans, many of whom are veterans themselves, 
the ability to stay home with a new child, if they choose, for an extra 
month with no pay. Enacting this policy will help VA stay competitive 
with other employers who offer similar or more generous options and 
improve recruitment and retention. AFGE urges its swift passage.

Draft legislation to establish a professional certification requirement 
for certain sterile processing technicians of the Veterans Health 
Administration

    Chairwoman Kiggans' draft legislation would amend Title 38 to 
prospectively require that sterile processing technicians attain a 
certification from an accredited institution prior to working at the VA 
and gives incumbent sterile processing technicians up to 2 years to 
earn this certification. The bill also does not apply to positions the 
Secretary of Veterans Affairs considers as entry level.
    AFGE appreciates Chairwoman Kiggans' intent in improving the 
training of Sterile Processing Technicians at the VA. However, the 
current version of the bill raises several questions that require 
clarification before AFGE can take a position on this legislation.
    First, the bill neither defines which certification is required, 
nor which institutions are accredited. Further, it does not consider 
whether the VA can offer this certification in-house instead of relying 
on private companies. Currently, these technicians take an internal 
certification course called the VA Certified Registered Medical Supply 
Technician (VA-CRMST). Technicians must finish the certification within 
their first year at the VA and complete 400 hours of work prior to 
testing. Additionally, there are 12 hours of continuing education 
requirements for these employees. VA has standardized the VA-CRMST for 
VA technicians and allows it to be completed during the workday with no 
individual expense for VA employees. What is the extra benefit to VA 
and its employees to further require, for example, the Certified 
Registered Central Sterile Technician (CRCST) certification, recognized 
by the Healthcare Sterile Processing Association?
    Second, what is the uniformity of the programs recognized by the 
Healthcare Sterile Processing Association? Do all these companies and 
their programs cover the same material, or is there variation in the 
programs and curriculum? Further, are any of those programs currently 
tailored for employees at the VA, as the VA's VA-CRMST program is?
    Third, who will bear the cost of attaining the CRCST certification? 
Asking incumbent technicians who are between GS-3 and GS-6, making a 
starting salary of $36,745 to $51,442 in Washington, DC to pay for a 
certification costing thousands of dollars is cost prohibitive, 
especially when it can be done in-house. Moreover, while new employees 
would be required to have this certification prior to employment, the 
burden placed on current employees and earning this certification after 
hours is significant and may hurt with retention of these employees.
    AFGE looks forward to learning more about this bill as it is 
considered by the subcommittee.

Draft legislation to authorize the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to 
recoup awards, bonuses, and relocation expenses paid to former 
employees of the Department of Veterans Affairs under certain 
conditions

    Rep. Self's draft legislation would allow the Secretary of Veterans 
Affairs to recoup bonuses and relocation expenses of former employees 
of the VA. AFGE opposes this legislation as it is an extension of the 
powers granted to the Secretary under the Department of Veterans 
Affairs Accountability and Whistleblower Protection Act of 2017 
(Accountability Act). The VA has abused the powers of the 
Accountability Act since its inception almost 9 years ago. In turn, 
AFGE has justifiable concerns as to how the bill would be implemented. 
Granting this power to claw back money from former employees since the 
law was enacted on June 23, 2017, poses problems for former employees 
who, after potentially almost a decade, do not have the ability to 
rebut the VA's claims. AFGE urges the subcommittee not to advance this 
bill.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and present AFGE's 
views on these bills. I look forward to answering your questions.

                       Statements for the Record

                              ----------                              


      Prepared Statement of U.S. Government Accountability Office 
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

      Prepared Statement of National Alliance to End Homelessness 
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

Prepared Statement of National Homelessness Law Center, National Health 
  Care for the Homeless Council, National Health Law Program, Funders 
Together for Housing Justice, and Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law 
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

     Prepared Statement of National Coalition for Homeless Veterans
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

 Prepared Statement of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA) 
               and American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

         Prepared Statement of Center for Procurement Advocacy
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                               [all]