[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   DELIVERING FOR AMERICAN CONSUMERS:
                    A REVIEW OF FINTECH INNOVATIONS
                            AND REGULATIONS
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL ASSETS, FINANCIAL 
                 TECHNOLOGY, AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                            JANUARY 13, 2026

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-50

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
       
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       

                            www.govinfo.gov
                              
                              __________
                              
                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLIISHING OFFICE
63-578 PDF               WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
                            
                 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                    FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Chairman

BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan, Vice        MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking 
    Chairman                             Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas, Vice 
PETE SESSIONS, Texas                     Ranking Member
ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  BRAD SHERMAN, California
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas                GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
TOM EMMER, Minnesota                 DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                AL GREEN, Texas
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee              EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin               JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South        BILL FOSTER, Illinois
    Carolina                         JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio
MARLIN STUTZMAN, Indiana             JUAN VARGAS, California
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina         JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania          VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
YOUNG KIM, California                SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
BYRON DONALDS, Florida               AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York        RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          RITCHIE TORRES, New York
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska                 NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas             CLEO FIELDS, Louisiana
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee              JANELLE BYNUM, Oregon
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa                   SAM LICCARDO, California
LISA McCLAIN, Michigan
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TROY DOWNING, Montana
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
TIM MOORE, North Carolina

                      Ben Johnson, Staff Director

                                 ------                                

 SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL ASSETS, FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY, AND ARTIFICIAL 
                              INTELLIGENCE

                    BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin, Chairman

TOM EMMER, Minnesota, Vice Chairman  STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts, 
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan                  Ranking Member
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                BRAD SHERMAN, California
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee              BILL FOSTER, Illinois
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South        JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
    Carolina                         AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
MARLIN STUTZMAN, Indiana             RITCHIE TORRES, New York
BYRON DONALDS, Florida               SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa                   BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
TROY DOWNING, Montana                SAM LICCARDO, California
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
TIM MOORE, North Carolina
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                       Tuesday, January 13, 2026
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Bryan Steil, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Digital Assets, 
  Financial Technology and Inclusion, a U.S. Representative from 
  Wisconsin......................................................     1
Hon. Stephen Lynch, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Digital 
  Assets, Financial Technology and Inclusion, a U.S. 
  Representative from Massachusetts..............................     2

                               STATEMENTS

Hon. French Hill, Chairman of the Committee on Financial 
  Services, a U.S. Representative from Arkansas..................     4

                               WITNESSES

Ms. Jodie Kelley, Chief Executive Officer, Electronic 
  Transactions Association (ETA).................................     4
    Prepared Statement...........................................     7
Mr. Kevin Lefton, Global General Counsel, Stream.................    24
    Prepared Statement...........................................    26
Mr. Ram Palaniappan, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, EarnIn.    30
    Prepared Statement...........................................    32
Mr. Todd Zywicki, Law Professor, George Mason University Antonin 
  Scalia Law School..............................................    40
    Prepared Statement...........................................    42
Ms. Delicia Reynolds Hand, Senior Director, Digital Marketplace, 
  Consumer Reports...............................................    73
    Prepared Statement...........................................    75

                                APPENDIX

                   MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Hon. Bryan Steil:
    Chamber of Progress60112.....................................
    National Asian/Pacific Islander American Chamber of Commerce 
      and Entrepreneurship (National ACE)........................   114
    Labor Council for Latin American Advancement (LCLAA).........   117
    UnidosUS Action Fund.........................................   119
Maxine Waters:
    America's Credit Unions......................................   121
    National Multifamily Housing Council (NMHC), the National 
      Apartment Association (NAA), and the Real Estate Technology 
      and Transformation Center (RETTC)..........................   123
    Center for Responsible Lending (CRL).........................   126
Hon. Bryan Steil and Hon. Maxine Waters:
    U.S. Black Chambers, Inc. (USBC).............................   135

                 RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

Written responses to questions for the record from Representative 
  Bryan Steil
    Mr. Kevin Lefton.............................................   138

                              LEGISLATION

H.R. ------, the Earned Wage Access Consumer Protection Act......   141
H.R. ------, the Fostering the Use of Technology to Uphold 
  Regulatory Effectiveness in Supervision (FUTURES) Act..........   156
H.R. ------, the Financial Services Innovation Act of 2026.......   164
H.R. ------, the Model Risk Management Modernization Act.........   182

 
                   DELIVERING FOR AMERICAN CONSUMERS:
                    A REVIEW OF FINTECH INNOVATIONS
                            AND REGULATIONS

                              ----------                              


                       Tuesday, January 13, 2026

             U.S. House of Representatives,
         Subcommittee on Digital Assets, Financial 
                                        Technology,
                       and Artificial Intelligence,
                           Committee on Financial Services,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m., in 
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Bryan Steil 
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Steil, Hill, Huizenga, Davidson, 
Rose, Timmons, Downing, Haridopolos, Moore, Lynch, Waters, 
Sherman, Foster, Pressley, Torres, Garcia, and Liccardo.
    Chairman Steil. The Subcommittee on Digital Assets, 
Financial Technology, and Artificial Intelligence will come to 
order.
    Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the committee at any time.
    Today's hearing is titled, ``Delivering for American 
Consumers: A Review of FinTech Innovations and Regulations.''
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
within which to submit additional material for the chair for 
inclusion in the record.
    Chairman Steil. I now recognize myself for 4 minutes for an 
opening statement.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BRYAN STEIL, CHAIRMAN OF THE 
   SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL ASSETS, FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY AND 
        INCLUSION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM WISCONSIN

    Technology continues to revolutionize our financial system, 
from payments to newer applications, like earned wage access. 
Digitalization, cryptography, and artificial intelligence give 
consumers faster, cheaper payment, flexible access to earned 
income, and new ways to manage everyday purchases. These 
innovations have the potential to improve Americans' financial 
well-being by making their day-to-day finances more practical, 
predictable, and affordable.
    Historically, workers were paid when they earned wages, yet 
today, many workers in our economy go home without their 
earnings. Holding an employee's pay until the end of a payroll 
cycle is a relatively modern practice. Earned wage access helps 
restore this link between work and pay by allowing workers the 
flexibility to access their wages as they earn them. This 
flexibility can help families deal with unexpected expenses, 
from medical bills to car repairs, or simply pay recurring 
bills timelier. By providing timely access to earned income, 
Earned Wage Access (EWA) can help Americans achieve their 
financial goals and help businesses improve worker 
satisfaction, retention, and overall productivity.
    Importantly, innovations, like EWA and buy now, pay later 
options, often coexist and intertwine with traditional 
financial institutions. Banks and other lenders are vital 
partners with financial technology (fintech), providing 
liquidity and credit as well as access to infrastructure like 
payment rails. These partnerships provide more efficiency and 
options for consumers and create new products to enhance 
competition. Our financial institutions can also benefit from 
partnering with fintech companies by enhancing their offerings 
and allowing small and community institutions to deploy 
cutting-edge tools.
    As we explore the benefits of fintech innovation, we must 
make sure that our regulatory framework is fit for purpose. A 
well-functioning framework for fintech should focus on risks 
posed by specific activities, not the identity or business 
model of the provider. Fintech products that meet consumer 
demand and improve Americans financial lives should have clear, 
practical legal pathways for operation and strong consumer 
protections. By supporting thoughtful and balanced regulation, 
we can encourage innovation while ensuring consumer protection 
and promoting financial well-being for American households and 
businesses alike. Today's hearing will inform these efforts, 
and I thank our witnesses for their upcoming testimony.
    I will now recognize the ranking member of the 
subcommittee, Mr. Lynch, for 4 minutes for an opening 
statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. STEPHEN LYNCH, RANKING MEMBER OF THE 
   SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL ASSETS, FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY AND 
      INCLUSION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM MASSACHUSETTS

    Mr. Lynch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I also would 
like to thank our witnesses for your willingness to come 
forward and help the committee with its work. This hearing 
continues our committee's work to examine fintech innovation, 
including the use of fintech liquidity products, such as buy 
now, pay later services and earned wage access. This is an area 
of great promise and potential to overcome preexisting barriers 
and to expand economic opportunity if we include proper 
guardrails that assure necessary consumer protections. This 
hearing continues our work, and these products present an 
attractive source of capital liquidity to help people meet 
short term needs. However, some consumer advocates and other 
stakeholders have pointed to multiple consumer protection 
concerns associated with fintech business models that 
incorporate hidden fees, lack meaningful underwriting and are 
not subject to adequate oversight, and they may target 
vulnerable consumers with deceptive claims about credit 
building.
    With the use of these products surging since the beginning 
of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, our 
committee's work on this issue has become increasingly vital to 
ensure that the proper oversight and adequate consumer 
protections are in place. As ranking member of this 
subcommittee, I participated in multiple hearings to examine 
the proliferation of fintech-powered earned wage access 
services that enable employees to receive a cash advance on 
their paycheck prior to payday, often at an inflated fee or at 
the cost of a voluntary so-called tip. Whether offered through 
an employer or through a direct-to-consumer provider, this on-
demand pay market has grown rapidly with employers and 
providers now advancing billions of dollars in wages to 
millions of employees annually.
    As reported by the Harvard Kennedy School in a recent study 
on the proliferation of earned wage access products, 40 percent 
of the people who have access to an earned wage access 
application through their employer use it at least once a week. 
Over 75 percent of respondents indicated that they were using 
their money to pay for regular bills rather than emergency 
expenses, with one typical user noting, ``It just turned into a 
cycle of always taking money out.'' Moreover, the rush fees, 
tipping options, and other hidden charges associated with 
certain business models--not all--collectively amounted to an 
estimated annual percentage rate of more than 300 percent in 
some cases. Similarly, a growing number of consumers are now 
relying on buy now, pay later services to make ends meet. With 
Federal Reserve data indicating that nearly a hundred million 
Americans used buy now, pay later at least in 2025. These 
services, which allow consumers to pay for purchases over 
multiple partial payments, are now widely available at checkout 
both online and in person, where a customer can opt into 
services and receive approval in minutes without a hard credit 
check.
    Despite purporting to offer free services, some buy now, 
pay later loans, especially longer-term loans, can ultimately 
be more costly than using a traditional credit card. The 
Federal Reserve reports that nearly one-fourth of buy now, pay 
later users did not make payments on time and faced later fees. 
Considering the proliferation of buy now, pay later, earned 
wage access, and other fintech liquidity products, the consumer 
protection and enforcement mission of the Consumer Financial 
Protection Bureau is more important than ever.
    Unfortunately, President Trump does not agree. The Trump 
Administration has undertaken unprecedented and unlawful 
efforts to dismantle the very agency that should be protecting 
consumers against fraud and exploitation in this very area, 
including the issuance of cease work orders that halted 
virtually all Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) 
enforcement supervision and enforcement functions, the 
abandonment of dozens of pending enforcement cases, and the 
attempted termination of about 90 percent of CFPB Agency staff. 
I urge my colleagues to defend the CFPB in the face of these 
attacks. It will help with the innovation that we all desire to 
see in this wage space. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield 
back the balance of my time.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Hill, for 1 minute for 
an opening statement.

  STATEMENT OF HON. FRENCH HILL, CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON 
    FINANCIAL SERVICES, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM ARKANSAS

    Chairman Hill. Thank you, Chairman Steil, for your great 
leadership of our subcommittee. This hearing is really deeply 
personal for me. For the past 4 decades as a former community 
banker and investor, I have seen how technology has expanded 
across banking, sharpened competition, and broadened choices 
for consumers and financial products. Earlier, as a payment 
system innovator, I witnessed banks' strong demand for modern 
tools and how meeting that demand delivered real benefits for 
our customers across the board. This committee has long 
championed innovation and responsible partnership between 
traditional financial institutions and technology companies. 
That commitment is now more important than ever. We should 
encourage regulators to foster those partnerships, unlock 
innovation, and reduce unnecessary regulatory burdens. I look 
forward to the discussion today on how we can work together to 
promote innovation, strengthen competition, and expand consumer 
choice. Thank you Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. Today, we 
welcome the testimony of Jodie Kelley, chief financial officer 
of the Electronic Transactions Association; Mr. Kevin Lefton, 
global general counsel at Stream; Mr. Ram Palaniappan, founder 
and chief executive of EarnIt; Todd Zywicki, law professor at 
George Mason University at the Antonin Scalia School of Law; 
and Delicia Reynolds Hand, senior director of digital 
marketplace at Consumer Reports. We thank each of you for 
taking the time to be here. Each of you will be recognized for 
5 minutes to give an oral presentation of your testimony.
    Without objection, your written statements will be made 
part of the record.
    Ms. Kelley, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your 
oral remarks.

STATEMENT OF JODIE KELLEY, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, ELECTRONIC 
                    TRANSACTIONS ASSOCIATION

    Ms. Kelley. Thank you. Chairman Hill, Chairman Steil, 
Ranking Member Lynch, and members of the subcommittee, thank 
you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Jodie 
Kelley, and I am the chief executive officer of the Electronic 
Transactions Association, or ETA, the leading trade association 
representing the global payments industry. Our members, from 
banks and networks to fintech innovators, process more than $57 
trillion in transactions annually and power commerce for 
millions of American consumers and businesses. Today, I would 
like to make three points. First, digital payments are 
essential national infrastructure, delivering enormous value to 
consumers and small businesses. Second, this innovation already 
operates within a robust regulatory framework. Third, targeted 
Federal leadership, especially on fraud and artificial 
intelligence, can strengthen that framework without slowing 
innovation.
    Payments have evolved from cash and checks into a secure 
digital ecosystem that underpins daily economic life. Payments 
are how Americans get paid, pay bills, run businesses, and 
manage emergencies. Digital payments enhance affordability by 
expanding consumers' effective spending power. Credit cards, 
buy now, pay later options, and cash back rewards help families 
manage unexpected expenses and smooth cash-flow. In 2024 alone, 
consumers received more than $43 billion in cash back rewards. 
Those are real dollars returned to real household budgets. For 
small businesses, digital payments are now table stakes. 
Entrepreneurs can start businesses with a smartphone and accept 
payments instantly. Embedded payments integrated directly into 
business software allow small firms to manage sales, payroll 
taxes, and compliance all in one place.
    Businesses that accept digital payments see sales increase 
by 8 to 10 percent, and the efficiency gains are significant. 
In 2024, faster checkout and back office automation saved small 
businesses an estimated 806 million labor hours and generated 
$34 billion in incremental sales. At the national level, the 
payments ecosystem contributes more than $350 billion annually 
to gross domestic product (GDP) and directly supports 
approximately 2 million U.S. jobs: high-quality, good-paying 
jobs across every State.
    The industry continues to evolve through mobile wallets, 
peer-to-peer payments, embedded finance, and AI-driven fraud 
prevention. Artificial intelligence is now central to payment 
security. AI systems detect sophisticated fraud in real time, 
often before consumers are harmed, while reducing false 
declines and improving customer experience. Looking ahead, 
agentic commerce, where AI agents transact on behalf of 
consumers and business, offers real promise, but trust, 
authorization, and accountability must remain foundational.
    Now, this payments innovation does not occur in a 
regulatory vacuum. Payments providers operate under a 
comprehensive framework of Federal and State laws covering 
consumer protection, anti-money laundering sanctions, privacy, 
cybersecurity, operational resilience, and licensing. In 
addition, the industry has developed strong self-regulatory 
standards, including Payment Card Industry Data Security 
Standard (PCI DSS), Europay, Mastercard, and Visa (EMV) 
specifications, and network-level rules. This activity-based 
approach has protected consumers while allowing innovation to 
flourish.
    While new legislation is largely unnecessary, two areas do 
stand out for Federal leadership. The first is fraud and scams. 
Fraudsters increasingly rely on social engineering and AI-
driven deception. The payments industry invests billions of 
dollars annually to combat fraud, but payments are often the 
final step in scams that begin elsewhere on social media, 
through text messages, or over the phone. ETA supports enhanced 
cross-sector collaboration and legislation, like the bipartisan 
Taskforce for Recognizing and Averting Payment Scams (TRAPS) 
Act, to disrupt scams at their source. The second area is 
artificial intelligence. AI in payments is already governed by 
Federal consumer protection and safety and soundness rules. 
However, a growing patchwork of State AI laws threatens to 
fragment national payment systems. ETA urges Congress to 
establish a uniform, risk-based, technology-neutral AI 
framework that builds on existing laws.
    The digital payments industry delivers extraordinary 
benefits to American consumers, small businesses, and the 
broader economy. We look forward to working with Congress to 
help ensure payments innovation continues to deliver secure, 
affordable, and innovative financial services. Thank you, and I 
look forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Kelley follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman yields back. Mr. Lefton is 
recognized for 5 minutes.

   STATEMENT OF KEVIN LEFTON, GLOBAL GENERAL COUNSEL, STREAM

    Mr. Lefton. Thank you. Chairman Steil, Ranking Member 
Lynch, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you 
for your time today and for the invitation to speak about 
earned wage access and its importance to consumers everywhere. 
My name is Kevin Lefton, and I am the global general counsel of 
Stream. In this capacity, I oversee the legal and regulatory 
functions for our organization. Stream is an employer-
integrated, earned wage access provider operating across the 
United States, United Kingdom, EU, and Canada. In addition to 
EWA, we provide a comprehensive suite of financial well-being 
resources designed to enhance the financial health of our 
users.
    Stream, alongside many of our industry peers, remains a 
staunch advocate for thoughtful regulation that prioritizes 
consumer protection. We stand as an important non-credit 
alternative to the high-cost products that trap consumers in a 
cycle of debt. It is a fundamental premise of my testimony 
today that EWA services do not constitute credit, are not 
loans, and should not be regulated as such. EWA is a critical 
tool for frontline and hourly workers in all industries, 
including healthcare, hospitality, manufacturing, education, 
and many others. By allowing employees to access wages they 
have already earned but have not yet been paid due to 
traditional biweekly or monthly payroll cycles, EWA provides a 
low-to no-cost alternative to the high interest rates and high-
cost fees of other financial products.
    We cannot talk about EWA without talking about the 
essential consumer-focused benefits and consumer protections of 
EWA's benefits and protections that are absent in credit and 
other high-cost products. EWA lacks all the hallmarks of 
traditional credit and loan products. Specifically with Stream, 
there is always a free option to use our service, and the 
nominal fee for instant access should a consumer choose to use 
that feature is typically lower than a standard automated 
teller machine (ATM) withdrawal fee. There is no interest. 
There is no underwriting. We do not pull credit reports or base 
access to EWA services on creditworthiness. There is no debt 
collection. We do not report to the credit bureaus or engage in 
collection activity of any kind. The service is truly 
nonrecourse, and no debt is ever incurred. If there is ever an 
issue, Stream does not go after the consumer. We do not sue 
them, and we do not report them to debt collections.
    The arguments that are often presented against earned wage 
access are flawed because they conflate a nonrecourse financial 
wellness tool with a high-cost lending product. Labeling EWA as 
credit ignores the basic reality that workers are simply 
accessing capital they have already earned. Applying a 
traditional credit framework, like an interest rate, to a non-
credit product is misleading and, ultimately, harmful to the 
millions of hardworking Americans who simply want the option of 
having access to their own wages so that they can manage their 
own money when they see fit. Applying a traditional credit 
framework, like an annual percentage rate (APR), to a flat, 
nominal, transparent fee is also misleading and creates a false 
protection that would effectively ban a low-cost or free 
service. These arguments do not protect consumers. They limit 
consumer options and force them back toward the very high-
interest and high-cost fees that EWA was designed to eliminate.
    A lot has been written about EWA, and there is a lot of 
misleading information out there, but here are the key 
takeaways I would like to leave you with about EWA. EWA is 
either free or has a nominal fee. There is no interest. There 
is no debt collection. There is no underwriting. EWA is a 
nonrecourse service, and, most importantly, there is nothing 
wrong with allowing American consumers to decide how and when 
they can access their money through a product and service they 
want and like. EWA represents a shift toward a more equitable 
financial system for hourly and frontline workers, allowing 
them to better plan for the future and manage life's 
emergencies with dignity. We urge this committee to support a 
framework that recognizes EWA as a critical non-debt solution 
for the American worker.
    Thank you for your time and I look forward to your 
questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Lefton follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Steil. Thank you. Mr. Palaniappan, you are now 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    [No response.]
    Chairman Steil. You may you want to check your microphone.
    Mr. Palaniappan. Better now? Okay.

   STATEMENT OF RAM PALANIAPPAN, FOUNDER AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE 
                        OFFICER, EARNIN

    Mr. Palaniappan. Thank you. Chairman Steil, Ranking Member 
Lynch, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today. My name is Ram Palaniappan. I am 
the founder and CEO of EarnIn, and I am honored to return and 
contribute to the discussion on how financial innovation can 
improve the lives of American consumers. Paying bills and 
managing expenses is top of mind for people every day. 
Innovation helps with that by making pay more timely and 
efficient. Innovations last only if they actually make people's 
lives better and earned wage access is an example of such 
innovation. Its use is growing because of the real impact that 
it has on people's lives. EarnIn started as an earned wage 
access company and now also offers a modern payroll platform 
that is used by over 10,000 companies, along with consumer 
tools that make the way people experience their pay better. 
Today, about 1 percent of the people in the U.S. who get a 
paycheck use EarnIn to access all or part of their pay.
    The idea for EarnIn started when I was working at another 
company. I heard that some of my employees were struggling 
between paychecks. That surprised me because they were paid 
well. I spoke with one of them. She said she needed money the 
next day, and could not wait until the following Friday, which 
was payday. She had already worked the hours, she had earned 
the money, but payday was still days away. The issue was not 
how much she earned; it was when she got her pay. I could not 
get the payroll system to pay up for the hours that she had 
already worked, so I gave her the money that she had already 
earned, and we settled it when payroll ran, and I continued 
helping many other of my employees the same way, just as 
happens with many other small businesses. What began as a one-
time solution has become a reliable way for people to pay their 
bills on time and avoid expensive fees. EarnIn started with the 
simple idea that people should have access to the money that 
they have already earned when they want it, not when payroll 
decides.
    Today, most employees are paid digitally, but these digital 
dollars move more slowly than any other digital product. You 
work every day, and then you are paid once in 2 weeks or maybe 
once a month. Just imagine if other digital products worked the 
same way. If your phone said type your text messages every day 
and it would send them out every 2 weeks, you would not use 
that, but that is how payroll still works today. The biweekly 
or monthly pay cycle is a relic of an outdated era that is 
holding back the benefits of efficiency and today's technology 
from the people who need it the most. By shortening the work-
to-pay gap, EarnIn helps people manage everyday expenses, like 
groceries, rent, utility and transportation. We are proud to do 
this in a way that puts the worker first without mandatory 
fees, interest, or credit checks.
    Multiple independent research studies have confirmed that 
workers are better off when they have access to their pay when 
they need it. A study by researchers at the University of 
Oregon on over a million EarnIn customers found a sustained 
monthly increase of 11-and-a-half percent in incomes. That is 
about $335 on average. Users work more shifts, miss work less, 
and manage their finances better. Another study from University 
of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) on a dataset from a different 
provider found similar results. Incomes went up over 10 
percent. Liquidity acts as upward mobility with reduced 
overdrafts and no debt cycles.
    Behind the data are millions of real people. One customer, 
a government employee, has a side business making custom 
candles. He used to wait until payday once he received an order 
to buy his supplies. Now he uses EarnIn, and as soon as he 
receives an order, he buys his supplies. That has let him do 
more orders a month and increased his income. Another EarnIn 
customer, Rae, a Southern California mother and retail 
supervisor who is undergoing cancer treatment, shared that on 
some days she feels better than others. Payday does not always 
align with when she is feeling better, but EarnIn gives her the 
flexibility and peace of mind, allowing her to take her 
daughter out on good days without being restricted by paycheck 
timing.
    Earned wage access can be delivered in different ways, 
including through employer-integrated programs or directly to 
workers. The direct-to-consumer model means employees can 
access the benefits wherever they work. Today, EarnIn serves 
over 2 million customers, including many in public service, 
healthcare, education, and small businesses across the country. 
Notably, about 1 percent of House staffers use EarnIn.
    I appreciate Chair Steil and Representative Torres for 
their bipartisan leadership to establish a clear Federal 
framework for earned wage access, and I look forward to 
continued collaboration in expanding access to these 
innovations to workers anywhere. I am happy to answer 
questions. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Palaniappan follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much. Mr. Zywicki, you are 
now recognized for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF TODD ZYWICKI, LAW PROFESSOR, ANTONIN SCALIA LAW 
                SCHOOL, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY

    Mr. Zywicki. Thank you. Chairman Hill, Chairman Steil, 
Ranking Member Lynch, and members of the subcommittee, I am 
Todd Zywicki. I am the George Mason University Foundation 
Professor of Law at Antonin Scalia Law School, the former chair 
of the CFPB Task Force on Federal Consumer Law, and co-founder 
and co-director of the Institute for Consumer Financial Choice 
at the Scalia Law School.
    The modern American consumer finance system is really a 
miracle if you think about it. You can walk into a car 
dealership today and walk out an hour later with a car. I mean, 
just think about how transformative that has been for the 
world. As Ms. Kelley mentioned, we can make payments anywhere 
in the world 24 hours a day--day, night, online, in person--
anywhere in the world. As Congressman Lynch mentioned in his 
opening statement, I think very notably, just think about the 
way in which access to innovation and financial services helped 
us to deal with the disruptions of the COVID pandemic and the 
ability of people to bank online, pay online, do all these 
sorts of things, as well as the alternative underwriting models 
that were developed for data when people were not getting paid 
and the like.
    Above all, it is really democratized access to financial 
services. Innovation, more than anything, has been a vehicle 
for including people who traditionally have been underincluded 
by the traditional finance system, and how did this happen? 
Choice, competition, innovation is, basically, what has 
happened: new entry, often obstructed, often blocked by old 
incumbents, but new innovative technologies. Thinking back to 
the development of the Fair Isaac Corporation (FICO) score and 
the introduction of computers, which reduced discrimination, 
which opened competition. Think about even the telephone and 
the way in which telephones allowed credit cards to be marketed 
across State law. Think about payments. Just think about the 
way in which technology enabled us to go from knuckle busters 
on credit card processing to always on instant verification at 
a checkout, and most recently, of course, the development of 
the internet.
    Some of these innovations were really just developments of 
a better way of delivering an older product, such as buy now, 
pay later (BNPL), which replaces old installment loans, or EWA 
as we have heard about, which helps consumers or employees get 
money from their employers. Sometimes they are totally new, 
such as alternative data and underwriting systems and some of 
the payment systems we see today. Regardless of what they are, 
one thing they have in common is they must have a regulatory 
regime that supports innovation and that does not block it.
    An obvious point is that the regulation must reflect the 
technology, as we said, whether it is the Supreme Court's 
decision, the Marquette decision, that allowed credit cards to 
be marketed across State lines more effectively, whether it was 
debt collection rules that dealt with the telephone and the 
fact that you could then make phone calls across State lines, 
but second, it always also requires the right jurisdiction to 
deal with things. We went from a period of local credit to a 
period of national credit driven by department stores and the 
like, to what we have today, which is nowhere and everywhere 
via the internet. We have to have the right jurisdictional 
bodies acting on a lot of these things.
    So, we saw in the 1960s and 1970s, as the consumer finance 
system became more national, we saw more national laws dealing 
with Equal Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA), dealing with debt 
collection and the like. The products that are the focus of 
today's hearing are a good example. These are products that are 
offered on the internet. They do not bear any relationship to 
local jurisdictional boundaries and the like, and so thinking 
about sophisticated and appropriate places for the Federal 
Government to regulate and to, even when necessary, preempt 
State laws, I think that are important.
    I am very pleased with a lot of the innovations and reforms 
in the regulatory framework of the past few years, whether it 
was the recent decision by the Office of the Comptroller of the 
Currency (OCC) to recognize national trust banks for fintech 
firms, whether it was the CFPB's actions with respect to some 
of the regulations that they did, the decision of the CFPB to 
keep the 1033 rule and reframe it in a way that is more useful. 
I think there is a lot more that could be done, and I think a 
lot of the legislation that is the subject of this hearing 
moves in the right direction in terms of opening up 
competition, national markets in a more resilient in more 
responsive, technologically based regulation.
    In conclusion, history teaches that consumers do best when 
we recognize their ability to plan their own finances and we 
give them choice, competition, and the ability to plan their 
own lives, and not substitute the judgment of bureaucrats for 
American families. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Zywicki follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much. Ms. Reynolds Hand, you 
are now recognized for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF DELICIA REYNOLDS HAND, SENIOR DIRECTOR, DIGITAL 
                 MARKETPLACE, CONSUMER REPORTS

    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Thank you. Chairman Hill, Chairman 
Steil, Ranking Member Lynch, and distinguished members of the 
subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. 
My name is Delicia Reynolds Hand, and I am the senior director 
of the Digital Marketplace at Consumer Reports. There, I lead 
our work ensuring digital financial products work for 
consumers, not against them. Before Consumer Reports, I spent 
nearly a decade at the CFPB.
    This hearing asks an important question--is fintech 
delivering for American consumers--and I would like to make 
three points. First is affordability. Affordability is key for 
consumers. Americans are stretched thin. Groceries and rent 
cost more, and credit card rates are near historic highs. In 
this environment, consumers will turn to products like buy now, 
pay later and earned wage access to manage cash-flow. This in 
itself is not a problem. The problem is when they cannot easily 
see what they are paying, they cannot compare options, and debt 
stacks invisibly across providers. The CFPB's own recent data 
point on buy now, pay later shows that BNPL usage continues to 
grow. Consumers are now taking an average of six loans per year 
from a single provider, up 11 percent, and that is just one 
lender. Many consumers use multiple providers, creating 
obligations that do not appear on traditional credit reports. 
Simple guardrails, such as cost disclosure, lets people compare 
options, and other guardrails against debt stacking allow 
consumers to avoid invisible overextension. These are not anti-
innovation. They are baseline requirements for a market that 
works.
    On earned wage access, we are glad to see the draft 
legislation before you contains real protections, like a no-
cost option, disclosure rules, prohibition on late fees. 
However, we are concerned that the bill also categorically 
excludes EWA from credit law and preempts State authority. 
Under the Truth in Lending Act, credit is defined as ``the 
right to defer payment of debt or incur debt and defer its 
payment.'' If it works like credit, we should regulate it like 
credit, and by that measure, EWA is credit.
    Second, consumers need accountability, especially for new 
innovation like AI. AI is no longer emerging in financial 
services. It is embedded. It is approving loans, freezing 
accounts, flagging fraud, as mentioned, determining who gets 
access to products at what price. These systems operate at 
machine speed, and if something goes wrong, accountability 
moves slowly, if it moves at all. Consumer Reports recently 
surveyed over 4,000 Americans on AI in financial services. 
Three-quarters are concerned that AI could lead to unfair 
treatment. When consumers encounter AI, many also report 
negative experiences. Fifty-seven percent do not believe 
current laws adequately protect them.
    Consumers should have the ability to opt out independent 
audits, a simple way to appeal, and public reporting on 
accuracy and bias testing; in other words, transparency, 
accountability, and human review. The subcommittee is 
considering the Financial Services Innovation Act, which would 
create sandboxes allowing companies to seek waivers from 
existing consumer protection rules, not just for AI, but for 
any financial innovation, and that just gets the burden wrong. 
Consumer harm during a test period is still harm, and the 
consumer whose account is frozen or wrongfully denied credit 
does not care whether it happened in a sandbox.
    Last, enforcement. I spent nearly a decade at the CFPB. I 
have seen what happens when we have an Agency that is active 
and mandating and holding its mandate to hold institutions 
accountable, and we are seeing what is happening when that 
capacity is dismantled. The CFPB has lost the majority of its 
enforcement capacity. Staff have been let go. Examinations have 
stopped. The Agency Congress created to be the cop on the beat 
is being hollowed out, and at the same time, this subcommittee 
is considering important legislation that would expand fintech 
activity and waive existing protections. That is a practical 
problem, not a solution. Who will supervise compliance with the 
EWA bill's disclosure requirements if no one is there to do it? 
Who investigates when AI systems malfunction at scale? The 
bills before you assume a functioning regulator from a consumer 
protection standpoint, and assumption no longer holds.
    So, the question today is not whether fintech innovation 
should continue. It absolutely should, but the question is 
whether consumer protections scale alongside with it, or 
whether consumers remain the shock absorbers for risk. We are 
ready to work with the subcommittee. We have tested the 
products' surveyed consumers, and I appreciate the opportunity 
to be here and welcome your questions. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Reynolds Hand follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman yields 
back. We will turn now to member questions. I will recognize 
myself for 5 minutes for questions.
    Mr. Palaniappan, we are at a transformational stage here. 
EWA gives individuals access to the wages they earned. If you 
and I, a hundred years ago, were hired to carry sacks of 
potatoes at Ms. Kelley's farm, we worked our tails off all day 
long, we would expect to have been paid at the end of our day's 
work. Large enterprise resource planning (ERP) systems came in 
and made it very difficult to pay people every day. Now many 
people get paid every 2 weeks, some people every month. It 
makes it hard to meet the bills and so, one of the questions 
becomes, how do we regulate this new space under earned wage 
access where individuals are receiving access to the wages that 
they have already earned?
    Attached to this hearing is my discussion draft, the Earned 
Wage Access Consumer Protections Act, where we start to dig 
into this, making sure that there is a no-cost option, full 
disclosures for individuals taking advantage of EWA products 
and so, one of the questions is, is this credit? Do we need a 
new regulatory framework? We just heard Ms. Reynolds Hand 
suggest that this is credit and should be regulated like 
credit, but if we were carrying sacks of potatoes at Ms. 
Kelley's farm, we would expect to get that money at the end of 
the day, and it sure does not sound like credit. It sounds like 
I am getting access to the money that I earned. So, I come to 
you, Mr. Palaniappan. Can you walk me through the distinctions 
that you see between EWA products and credit under the Truth in 
Lending act in Reg Z?
    Mr. Palaniappan. Sure. So, like you said, what earned wage 
access does is it changes the timing of when somebody receives 
their pay, which is different than a credit product where you 
are giving somebody money and I think calling it what it is 
not, calling it credit actually confuses the customer because 
with the credit product, they expect interest to accrue. They 
expect there to be a repayment date. They expect that there 
will be penalties if it does not get paid. They expect that 
there will be collections. They expect that it is going to 
affect their credit report. None of those happen with earned 
wage access, and so calling it credit actually will confuse the 
customer. In terms of the legal aspects of credit, I think 
Kevin, who is an attorney, might actually be better positioned 
to talk about how it is different to credit.
    Mr. Lefton. Sure. Thank you. I think that is an important 
question and probably one of the most important questions of 
today. The Truth in Lending Act (TILA) and Reg Z apply to 
consumer credit that is subject to a finance charge, and EWA is 
not consumer credit, and I will explain, and the flat fee is 
not a finance charge. The CFPB recently stated in its December 
23 advisory opinion that EWA is not credit because no debt is 
incurred. You must have a debt to have credit, and a debt is an 
obligation to repay.
    Chairman Steil. Should we think of that as a distinction 
between employer-sponsored EWA and direct-to-consumer EWA?
    Mr. Lefton. No.
    Chairman Steil. That is part of the conversation that we 
are hearing.
    Mr. Lefton. No, I think that is a great question, but no 
debt is no debt. So, if there is no obligation to repay on the 
direct-to-consumer and there is no obligation to repay on the 
employer-integrated, I think it is the same. I think the 
fundamental question is, is there an obligation to repay, and 
the answer is no for EWA because it is a nonrecourse product.
    Chairman Steil. So, Mr. Zywicki, I am going to come to you 
and kind of continue to pull on this same string. One of the 
challenges that we face are these new and innovative products 
are not always fitting neatly into the regulatory framework 
that, really, has not been updated since the 1970s, and so this 
is new technology that was not around and available now over 50 
years ago. What are some of the principles that you think we 
should be looking at to strike the right balance in this 
innovative space?
    Mr. Zywicki. Exactly right. I think that frames it 
correctly, which is, obviously, it needs to be, as I said in my 
remarks, responsive to the current technology. It needs to be 
responsive to the right jurisdictional boundaries. Our laws are 
really set up in a paper-based world back in the 1970s, and, 
finally, I think we really need to tailor it to who consumers 
are, where they are, and how they get information. Nowadays, 
people do things on the phone, not with great big stacks of 
paper, and so in terms of getting the right disclosures at the 
right times so that consumers can understand them on these 
products, I think those are the principles we should look like; 
take a consumer-focused approach to how they get information.
    Chairman Steil. Should it be risk focused, should it be 
activity focused, or should it be how the business purports the 
business model itself? What is the best way for us to be 
thinking that through?
    Mr. Zywicki. I think the best way to think about it is how 
do we empower consumers to find the products that they want as 
easily as possible. One of the things about EWA and BNPL is 
they are pretty simple products usually, and consumers can 
generally understand them, but I would say what we want to 
think about is how do consumers take in the information, how do 
they use the products, and focus on from the consumer 
perspective.
    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much. I think we have some 
really innovative space here and appreciate your testimony. I 
yield back.
    I will now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from 
Massachusetts, Mr. Lynch, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Lynch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of all, 
I want to recognize a couple of my dear, dear colleagues and 
friends in the audience, Congressman Lacy Clay from Missouri 
and Congressman Ed Perlmutter from Colorado, two outstanding 
Members of Congress when they were here, and they are missed, 
and good to see that they are gainfully employed.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Lynch. Just turning to the issue of earned wage access, 
so before coming to Congress, I was an iron worker for about 20 
years, worked in the construction industry, mostly building 
high-rise office towers, that type of thing. The way it worked 
in the construction industry is we would work Monday through 
Friday, and then the following Wednesday, we would get a 
paycheck. So, by the time payday rolled around at the end of 
the day on the following Wednesday, we had loaned the company 8 
days of labor. So, we floated, basically, providing credit to 
our employer, and life does not work that way. It did not work 
that way back then, and it does not work that way today. Back 
then, you had to ask for what they called a drag. A drag was an 
advance on your money, so it is the similar model here, but it 
was much less fair and transparent back in the day, so there is 
definitely the need for this, right? We need innovation, as 
several of our witnesses have pointed out. Mr. Zywicki and 
others have said we can expand opportunity, we can expand bank 
access if we do this properly. I do want to just acknowledge 
what Ms. Reynolds Hand has pointed out, that if we do not do 
this properly we allow this innovation to come in a way that we 
actually encourage, or let me put it this way: We unfairly 
require companies that are doing the right thing to compete 
with bad actors if there is no regulation, you know. We just 
know human nature, and we may put people in a bad situation, 
especially because of the demographics.
    Ms. Reynolds the recent bipartisan working group that we 
had here on artificial intelligence that I co-chaired with 
Chairman Hill specifically examined the impact of AI algorithms 
that target certain customers based on certain characteristics, 
including protected characteristics. Given the importance of 
consumer data feeding AI, there is a concern that some of these 
companies may use algorithms in BNPL buy now, pay later, and 
earned wage access products that feed off consumer datasets 
that violate their privacy and may be impermissible for other 
reasons. Can you talk about do we have any transparency or any 
visibility on how these firms are using those datasets, how 
they were acquiring them?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Sure. Absolutely. Over the last several 
years, Consumer Reports has evaluated, we have reviewed 
policies, and actually dug into the fintech apps, various 
kinds--buy now, pay later, peer-to-peer (P2P) apps, digital 
wallets, crypto wallets, for example--to examine how consumers 
use them, what they do. To your point, all across the board, 
even basic banking apps, more data is collected than is needed. 
That data is then passed on and sold and used. Consumers are 
upmarketed. It also allows the companies to strategically 
understand what consumers are willing to pay and what they are 
not willing to pay, and prices can be set using this data that 
they gather from consumers. We do see multiple use. Consumers 
do not have control over their data. These apps are typically 
set to a default that is obscured, hard to find, and so it can 
have a disparate impact on communities of color, poor 
communities, and other consumers.
    Mr. Lynch. Okay. Thank you. My time is going to expire, but 
I would just ask you if you might be able to share with the 
committee in writing ways that we might mitigate the potential 
bias used against certain populations, especially the 40 
percent of BNPL users who are Black or Hispanic organic, as 
identified by the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia. Thank 
you. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The vice chair 
of the full committee, the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. 
Huizenga, is recognized.
    Mr. Huizenga. Mr. Chairman, I find myself in an odd 
position agreeing with Mr. Lynch on a couple of things: one, 
acknowledging our colleagues, Mr. Lacy Clay, Mr. Perlmutter. I 
am not sure I would have used ``outstanding''----
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Huizenga [continuing]. but they are very good friends 
and great colleagues to have worked with across the aisle, both 
of them, and I do appreciate that. It is interesting, Mr. 
Lynch's work as an iron worker. My family, the small company 
that I own, is in construction as well. It is seasonal, and I 
can tell you we go through that payroll process every week. We 
have chosen as employers to pay every week because I do not 
want to disadvantage my guys. I can tell you, I am speculating 
here a little bit, but I am pretty sure that Henry, Cole, 
Larry, and a couple of the other guys would be really excited 
about being able to have access to their cash daily after they 
put in a 10-or an 11-hour workday in a gravel pit, and, 
frankly, they deserve it.
    Now, the realities are, is by the time they finish up at 
5:30-6 on a Friday, we got to go get the hours, figure that 
out, get that into our payroll processor, and by the time that 
the checks are cut--we still are old school--they can choose to 
whether they want to have direct deposit or not, but we are 
still sending checks in the mail to some of these guys, and 
sign the check and they finally get it on Thursday. Amen. 
Hallelujah. Let us actually pay for people's work in a timely 
manner as we possibly can.
    So, I am going to start with Ms. Kelley here, and I want to 
touch on the transmitter licensing which I know you mentioned 
in your testimony. Currently, there exists a patchwork of State 
licensing regimes, and so it is kind of a quick two-part 
question here. First, what difficulties do you--do startups 
face when trying to develop or scale a new payment system, and 
second, what is the cost and complexity of complying with 
varying jurisdictional frameworks?
    Ms. Kelley. Yes, Congressman, thank you for that question. 
It is an important one. When you think about fintech startups 
and what it takes for them to get in market and operate, 
uniformity is so important, and the example you provide is one 
where there is incredible disuniformity. You have a small 
startup trying to get into business in 49 different 
jurisdictions with 49 different licensing requirements. We know 
that is expensive, we know it costs literally millions of 
dollars, and we know it takes a long time, as much as 2 years, 
and that is a death knell for a small business trying to get up 
and running. Then, of course, if they do manage to get up and 
running, there are 49 different compliance regimes they have to 
apply with.
    Mr. Huizenga. Well, that is okay. We will just have the 
Huizenga Gravel Company compliance department take care of 
that. Oh, wait a minute, that is me.
    Ms. Kelley. Well, that is exactly right. Small businesses 
have to focus on their business.
    Mr. Huizenga. Yes.
    Ms. Kelley. They do not have an army of compliance 
professionals and others who can help us navigate that 
patchwork, so it is an excellent example of a real-world 
problem that startups and businesses have.
    Mr. Huizenga. It is better than Mr. Steil and me carrying 
your sack of potatoes on the metaphorical farm.
    Ms. Kelley. Exactly.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Huizenga. All right. Mr. Zywicki, good to see you again 
as well. What role do nonbank firms play in partnering with 
fintechs, and how do these relationships help drive innovation 
that might not otherwise occur within traditional banking 
system? We are seeing this all the time, right? I mean, you 
certainly did at CFPB.
    Mr. Zywicki. Yes, thank you for that. It is really 
remarkable. Banks do some things pretty well, but banks do not 
always do innovation that well, especially smaller banks.
    Mr. Huizenga. Their regulators tend not to like that.
    Mr. Zywicki. Yes, their regulators often are not friends of 
innovation, but especially small banks. I think one of the 
things we are seeing is that a lot of fintechs are partnering 
with small banks, which I think are strengthening the dual 
banking system. A lot of these are State banks, smaller banks 
and so, what I think we are seeing is, especially in a 
regulatory environment where, for various reasons, including 
regulation, we are getting more and more consolidation and 
concentration in the banking system. I think the way in which 
fintechs are strengthening the ability of small banks to 
compete with big banks, they are often more nimble, they are 
more responsive, and that sort of thing. That is really been an 
engineer. Big banks innovate as well, but I think the ability 
of fintechs to partner with small banks has been a huge part of 
this story.
    Mr. Huizenga. Okay. I have 30 seconds left, and, sorry, 
with a name like Huizenga, I am not trying to be disrespectful 
when I mispronounce Palaniappan, right? Close-ish? Let me move 
to you on the remaining time. What elements of your current 
financial institution regulatory framework may be inappropriate 
for startups? I may have to take that in written form, but 
maybe briefly.
    Chairman Steil. Why do we not ask the gentleman to provide 
that in written form, cognizant of the time?
    Mr. Huizenga. I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman Steil. Thank you.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. I will now 
recognize the gentlewoman from California, the ranking member 
of the full committee, Ms. Waters, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Waters. Thank you very much. President Trump promised 
to reduce the cost of living. Instead, unemployment and grocery 
prices are rising, and consumer protections are eroding. Under 
the Trump economy, people are being forced to use products like 
earned wage access to get early access to their paychecks, and 
buy now, pay later loans to buy groceries. Trump called this 
affordability crisis a hoax, but he knows it is real and now 
wants to cap credit card interest rates at 10 percent. Well, 
President Trump, I am pleased to know that you are listening. 
We do not agree on much of anything, but we do on this, so let 
us do it. Let us cap interest rates, but, Mr. President, you 
are going to need to convince your Republican colleagues 
because they will not consider this or any other bill that 
would help keep money in consumers' pockets.
    So, not only am I interested in what the President has 
proposed, this interest rate of 10 percent on credit cards. Mr. 
Steil, do you believe this cap requires authorization by 
Congress? Yes? I did not hear you.
    Chairman Steil. Would the gentlewoman----
    Ms. Waters. I yield.
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman would like to yield?
    Ms. Waters. Do you believe the cap requires authorization 
by Congress to get the 10-percent cap that the President is 
advocating?
    Chairman Steil. I would be more than happy to have a 
broader dialog as to exactly how we navigate it anytime, 
Ranking Member.
    Ms. Waters. Well, I want to know whether or not the 
committee have plans to move forward with this policy. Maybe 
some of our witnesses here today know a little bit more about 
it. Ms. Reynolds, are you supportive of 10-percent credit card 
rate cap?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. We are supportive of anything that 
lowers the cost of goods and services to consumers. As you 
mentioned, loads of things, including the cost of financial 
services, are high for consumers right now. I think an 
important consideration is how that happens, and if that 
happens through a transparent process where we are able to come 
to the table and land on a workable solution, that is great.
    I think one thing I would like to note is about how credit 
card rates are set. They are based on risk price, right, 
lending happens that way, and so we would be concerned that 
this 10-percent cap, if not done correctly, could reduce 
accessibility of credit cards for some of the more vulnerable 
consumers and so, we would support the basic principle and are 
looking forward to seeing more details and working in a 
bipartisan way.
    Ms. Waters. Well, I am sorry I said ``Ms. Reynolds.'' It is 
Ms. Reynolds Hand. Fintech products like buy now, pay later and 
earned wage access, do you believe that they can help families 
struggling to make ends meet, especially during this crisis 
that we are confronted with?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Yes, they can. We have no objection to 
those products. What we have seen is with the introduction of 
innovation, more consumers have access to liquidity. That is an 
important foundation of American commercial life, and we want 
healthy credit that is available to consumers, but there should 
be some basic standards that are introduced and guardrails that 
are introduced with these products. Specifically, we want to 
ensure that there is an affordability standard. We got into the 
last financial crisis, the mortgage crisis, because there was 
not a real test of consumers' ability to repay. That deserves 
consideration with these kinds of products, especially when you 
have a significant business model. You have employer-sponsored 
EWA. You also have direct-to-consumer EWA, which is sponsored 
differently and, in some instances, can be riskier to 
consumers.
    We also want to ensure that all products that look like 
credit and act like credit are treated in the same way. If a 
consumer incurs a debt and that debt needs to be repaid later 
in time for a specific fee or interest is attached, I do not 
know what else you would call that other than credit, and that 
is what is defined under the Truth in Lending Act. So, we want 
that consistency.
    Ms. Waters. Thank you very much. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman yields back. The gentleman 
from Ohio, Mr. Davidson, who is also the chair of the National 
Security, Illicit Finance, and International Financial 
Institutions Subcommittee, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Davidson. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you to all of our 
witnesses for joining us today and for your testimony.
    One of the great strengths of America's financial system is 
the capacity for innovation. Fintech companies, in particular, 
have created tools that help consumers stretch the paycheck, 
avoid overdraft fees, build savings, improve payments, and 
access financial services in a way that simply did not exist a 
decade ago. Earned wage access is one of the things that we are 
highlighting today, and I think all of our witnesses, or really 
4 out of the 5 witnesses, have done a good job describing how 
this works, why consumers want it, and I think Chairman Steil, 
his question, clarified and the answer clarified why it is not 
debt, so. I guess that debt is in the eye of the beholder 
because Ms. Reynolds Hand thinks that it is debt, but it seems 
very clear that you are not obligated to repay something in the 
future. You are just paying a fee for a service. I mean, who is 
served by treating it as if it is debt? How is this protecting 
consumers? Why would they want to categorize it as debt? Maybe, 
Ms. Kelley, would you give us an answer about what you think?
    Ms. Kelley. Yes. We agree that this is not debt, that it is 
access to wages that are already earned and we think it is a 
really important choice or option, and that is the hallmark of 
the fintech industry right now: providing choice and option to 
consumers who are best positioned to decide how to utilize 
those products. I know we have earned wage companies here who 
can speak in detail about what they do, but as an overarching 
matter, we agree this is not that.
    Chairman Steil. Mr. Lefton, your take?
    Mr. Lefton. Sure. I think it is absolutely clear that 
earned wage access is not credit because it does not have debt, 
and I think as I alluded to earlier, a debt requires an 
obligation to repay. With earned wage access, as we have 
stated, it is a nonrecourse product. So if something happens, 
whether it is a technological glitch or the user somehow 
changes their functions and the company does not recoup their 
money, we do not go after the consumer. There is no risk to the 
consumer whatsoever. At most, maybe they will be paused until 
we figure out how that happened, but there is no risk to the 
consumer. There is no debt collection and they do not go to the 
credit bureaus, so there is no obligation.
    Mr. Davidson. Thank you, and I think it is also essentially 
the same whether it is a direct-to-consumer or something that 
the employer offers as a service to the employees. I would say, 
look, the idea that payroll is deferred into the future and 
people would like to get paid is not new. I mean, this is as 
old as the Bible. You see stories about people who are paid one 
denarii for a day's wages. There are people that show up late 
in the day and are giving them one denarii and they are, ``oh, 
not fair,'' right? So, we have had a debate about payroll as 
old as we have written documents, I think so, but it is nice 
that we have this service, and I appreciate the clarification 
on it.
    One of the other things that we have done for a long time 
is we have State-regulated banks, and bank fintech partnerships 
are incredibly important to being able to provide access to 
consumers. When you think about community banks, a lot of 
people, that is where they find accessibility, and a lot of the 
biggest banks do not decide to launch massive products. They do 
not want to test the market. They want to be fast followers at 
best. Maybe the cutting edge is somebody smaller, more nimble 
and willing to test a product that they do not have to 
necessarily spend as much capital just testing it or getting 
into the market. So, we have a regulatory framework that 
creates preemption around the country where banks are 
regulated. This is the Depository Institutions Deregulation 
Monetary Control Act, DIDMCA, if I am pronouncing that alphabet 
soup correctly. Essentially, if a bank is based in Ohio, they 
are regulated by the regulators in Ohio, but because of 
preemption, they can service customers wherever customers want 
to reach out to them and access. How is that being 
reinterpreted and reimagined and why? Ms. Kelley, you got an 
answer to that?
    Ms. Kelley. Yes, so, and thank you for that question. It is 
an important one. As we spoke earlier, uniformity is really 
critical: predictability, certainty, uniformity for fintechs 
and the ability of a bank to partner with a fintech to make a 
loan, for example, there needs to be certainty about which 
State's laws apply, and that has been thrown into question 
lately. There was a recent decision in the Tenth Circuit that 
suggested States could override the law that would otherwise 
apply. Again, anything that creates disuniformity like that 
does makes it more difficult for innovation to thrive.
    Mr. Davidson. Yes, thank you. I will be introducing 
legislation in the near future to rebut that ruling and make 
sure that we know the law is clear as it has been applied for a 
long time. I hope all my colleagues across the aisle will join 
in it, and I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
from California, the ranking member on the Subcommittee on 
Capital Markets, Mr. Sherman, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Sherman. Mr. Chairman, off the topic of this hearing, 
this is the first meeting of a subcommittee of Financial 
Services since President Trump has begun this unprecedented use 
of the criminal justice system to contort it, to militarize it, 
and to attack the Federal Reserve, to try to take away its 
independence and, thereby, imperil our economy. If you are 
gullible enough to think that Donald Trump did not order this 
to happen, you are probably gullible enough to think that he 
has been faithful to all three of his wives.
    Now, as to this hearing, the basic problem is rent is too 
high, groceries are too high, wages are too low, and an awful 
lot of Americans do not have a thousand bucks in the bank, and 
so they have to turn to all these expensive and complicated 
systems to get their hands on a few hundred dollars. We are 
told that these are not payday loans. Many payday loan 
companies call themselves payday advance. They are functionally 
equivalent to a payday loan, but the companies involved do not 
want to live by the same laws as the payday lending folks. We 
are told instead that you are selling an asset you already own, 
so, Mr. Lefton, let us say my pay period begins on February 1. 
I am 15 minutes into the pay period. I have been paid for every 
bit of work I have done for my company, except for the last 15 
minutes. How much can I borrow from your company?
    Mr. Lefton. So, at Stream, it is----
    Mr. Sherman. Can I not borrow $500 from your company 15 
minutes into the business pay period?
    Mr. Lefton. You can borrow up to 50 percent of your gross 
earned wages. We are integrating----
    Mr. Sherman. Of what I have already earned in 15 minutes, 
or what I am going to earn during the pay period?
    Mr. Lefton. No, what you have earned up to that moment in 
time.
    Mr. Sherman. Only what I have earned up to that moment in 
time.
    Mr. Lefton. That moment in time.
    Mr. Sherman. So, you have a company that is there to help 
me, but you can only help me significantly on February 14. You 
cannot help me on February 1.
    Mr. Lefton. Well, we can help you access any wages you have 
already earned in that moment in time. We are integrated with 
your employer----
    Mr. Sherman. Okay.
    Mr. Lefton [continuing]. so we know exact date, time, and 
attendance of----
    Mr. Sherman. Okay. I will ask the gentleman sitting next to 
you. I got paid on January 31. It is now February 1. I need 500 
bucks. Can I get 500 bucks from your company?
    Mr. Palaniappan. No. The only amount that you can take is 
how much you have earned up until that point in time. We do not 
let you go beyond what you have already earned.
    Mr. Sherman. So, neither one of you will lend me even a 
hundred bucks on February 1 if I have been paid on January 31.
    Mr. Palaniappan. We are trying to make payroll be more 
efficient. People should not have to wait after they have 
worked to get their pay. That is what we are focused on.
    Mr. Sherman. Okay. So----
    Mr. Palaniappan. We are now trying to help them out if they 
need----
    [Cross-talking.]
    Mr. Sherman. Are there firms in your industry, though, that 
will advance me 500 bucks as long as I am going to make 500 
during this pay period or during the----
    Mr. Palaniappan. Not in the earned wage access product.
    Mr. Sherman. Okay.
    Mr. Palaniappan. There are lending products that will do 
that.
    Mr. Sherman. That is an interesting model. Well, I will ask 
Ms. Hand. It seems like these companies are direct competition 
for payday lending. They are doing the same thing. Should they 
be exempt from even what many would call the insufficient 
regulations that we have on payday lenders?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. We think there should be the same 
regulation in the marketplace for products that are 
functionally acting in the same way. If a consumer is able to 
receive funds, defer the payment, and if there are fees or fees 
that act like interest as they accrue over time, these should 
be treated the same way.
    Mr. Sherman. I will point out that people have calculated 
that the acceleration fee is 300 or 400 percent APR, which is 
why I have said APR is just a crazy way to evaluate the 
fairness of an advance or a loan that is just for a few days. I 
go to my local ATM machine. I could walk four blocks to my 
banks. I get my money, well 10 minutes sooner, and I pay 2 
bucks extra. You figure out the APR, $2 to get my money 20 
minutes sooner. The APR is in the tens of thousands, but we see 
that 90 percent of the folks that use this system are paying 
the acceleration fee. Should we regard, Ms. Hand, this as a 
free service, or is it a service that people are paying the 
acceleration fee on?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. I mean, what we see in terms of consumer 
usage is that consumers do not typically use these as a one-
and-done product. I am happy to follow up in writing. They tend 
to stack these loans----
    Mr. Sherman. Ah.
    Ms. Reynolds Hand [continuing]. and then functionally, that 
is where you see the equivalent of 300 percent or other high 
APR.
    Mr. Sherman. Gotcha. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
from Montana, Mr. Downing, is recognized.
    Mr. Downing. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to 
the witnesses for spending some time with us today.
    As a former securities regulator, I have dealt with a lot 
of issues in this space with digital assets. I had to deal with 
ambiguous regulations that, in some cases, have forced 
companies to look for offshore domiciles in innovating and I 
think it is incredibly important that we continue to have 
innovation here in the United States of America and do not have 
that ambiguity that we have in the past that have made people 
decide to run their businesses elsewhere without a reasonable 
framework. Another thing that was really difficult for me as a 
regulator is the ambiguity we got from the Securities and 
Exchange Commission (SEC) at the time on how to treat these and 
a lot of the enforcement by action rather than having a 
framework, which is why I think it is really important, that we 
need clarity for digital assets and for artificial 
intelligence.
    So, I am going to start with Professor Zywicki. I represent 
one of the most rural districts in the United States. In 
Montana's 2nd Congressional District, we have multiple counties 
with less than 500 people in them. It is very, very rural. So, 
how does financial technology increase access to banking 
services in areas that have sparse financial institutions, like 
in rural areas of Montana?
    Mr. Zywicki. Thank you for that question because I think 
the focus on financial inclusion for rural communities has been 
really understudied, and I think it is an area that is really 
important. It is an area that has become more important, as I 
mentioned in my opening comments, because of regulations like 
Dodd-Frank and the like, which have accelerated the 
concentration of the industry, and the regulatory costs have 
led to the disappearance of a lot of rural banks, small banks, 
community banks, and the like. Obviously one solution would be 
to reform the regulatory system, but I think this is the 
vehicle for that if you are talking about your local bank 
closes and now you have to drive 90 minutes to get to a bank in 
the next town. Fintech as a means for payments, as a means for 
obtaining short-term credit, for all these sorts of things, it 
is really the obvious solution for these rural communities that 
have lost access to financial services.
    Mr. Downing. Thank you very much for your answer. I am 
going to move on in the interest of time here. I was an 
advocate for regulatory sandboxes in Montana when I was a 
regulator. We effectively pushed policy on insurance technology 
(insurtech), and fintech was another part of this conversation, 
giving an opportunity to try out things that may not exactly 
fit within a current regulatory framework. So, I am going to 
start with Mr. Palaniappan. What role can regulatory sandboxes 
play in allowing fintechs to test and scale innovative products 
while maintaining appropriate consumer protections?
    Mr. Palaniappan. I think when a company is at an early 
stage in trying to come up with a product that does not exist 
before, the existing frameworks and laws usually have not 
contemplated what they are trying to do. So, I think you do 
want to provide the freedom for companies to try out new things 
with the right set of guardrails. I think there is also another 
set of startups where I would put earned wage access where the 
products are actually at reasonable scale. There is lots of 
evidence that it is better off for consumers, and when it gets 
to that stage, then you do want to have clarity so that 
consumers know that the product will continue to be available 
for them and also keeping bad actors out from that space.
    Mr. Downing. Thank you. Mr. Lefton, any comments on that?
    Mr. Lefton. Yes, I think that is a great question. I think 
sandboxes are critical for providers to work with regulators 
and figure out how best to serve the consumer, and I think a 
great example of something like that is Stream was founded 8 
years ago in the U.K. At the time, my founders, basically, came 
up with the idea, they knocked on the door of the Financial 
Conduct Authority, the FCA, and said we want to do this, how 
can we work with you to do this?
    Mr. Downing. Right.
    Mr. Lefton. They worked hand in hand with the FCA in order 
to do this and we brought that mentality over here and have 
tried whenever we were given the opportunity, whether it is 
with State regulators or the CFPB or being here today, to work 
to see how best we can come up with appropriate regulation for 
the product.
    Mr. Downing. Thank you. In the interest of time, Ms. 
Kelley, I am going to move on to you. I often hear from banks 
and credit unions in my district how costly it is to comply 
with so many regulations. So, how can we ensure that compliance 
costs for fintech startups remain proportionate so that 
innovation is not stifled and pricing does not prevent these 
products from reaching the consumers they are intended to 
serve?
    Ms. Kelley. Yes, thank you for that question. So, I think 
as we look to ensure that regulatory burdens do not stifle 
innovation, there are a few things we need to stay focused on. 
First, it is critical that we regulate activity and outcomes 
rather than technology. The core principle is same regulation. 
Second, uniformity and clarity are key. It is difficult to run 
a business and comply. We need to know exactly what it is we 
are complying with, and reducing the number of competing 
regulations is critical. We think sandboxes done correctly play 
a critical role----
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman can conclude in written 
testimony. We appreciate her testimony. Thank you.
    Mr. Downing. Thank you. I yield.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
from Illinois, Mr. Foster, the ranking member on the Financial 
Institutions Subcommittee, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Foster. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to our witnesses. Mr. 
Palaniappan, I was struck by the data that you mentioned about 
how earned wage access produces a better motivated and more 
productive and reliable employee. The question I have is, why 
did not the free market competition among payroll providers 
simply make this a standard feature of all payroll processing 
equipment? Was it just the overhead that Rep. Huizenga 
mentioned of filling out your weekly timesheet and the whole 
rhythm there? Is someone collecting the interest on this 
effective loan? What is it that prevented this from just 
happening naturally? I understand you are trying to disrupt it, 
a full-stack payroll provider yourself.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Palaniappan. Yes.
    Mr. Foster. I presume has this as a feature.
    Mr. Palaniappan. So, EarnIn Payroll does do what you 
described as the payroll system, but, typically, a payroll 
company does get interest on the money. The money is pulled 
from the employer's account. It goes into a master trust 
account. From there, the money goes into the employee's 
account, sometimes sits in the master trust account for some 
time, and then we also have to make payments for tax. Tax is 
actually not due immediately. Tax is sometimes due quarterly. 
Sometimes, depending on jurisdiction, it holds for more time. 
So, there is some interest that is being made.
    Mr. Foster. Is that the big----
    [Cross-talking.]
    Mr. Foster. I just wonder----
    Mr. Palaniappan. I actually think----
    Mr. Foster [continuing]. what is your impression of why 
this did not happen naturally?
    Mr. Palaniappan. I think it is different. I think the way 
we see payroll systems is we think there should be two 
consumers for a payroll system. There should be the employer 
and the employee, and employee first is how we actually have 
started the company. Most payroll systems think of the employer 
as their only customer. The employer is not the one who says I 
want the wages to be disbursed immediately. It is the employee 
who wants that, and so I think when you are focusing----
    Mr. Foster. It should be a competitive advantage to an 
employer if this is something they are offering.
    Mr. Palaniappan. Exactly.
    Mr. Foster. Right, and so any time I see, like, a failure 
of the free market to generate the right answer, I try and 
understand what drove that.
    Mr. Palaniappan. EarnIn Payroll does let employees access 
their pay when they need it, so they are----
    Mr. Foster. Oh, yes. No, I understand, and I understand why 
you are probably gaining market share. Why did someone not 
invent this 2 decades ago and have it happened automatically, I 
guess. Anyway, if you have any thoughts on this. I do not want 
to burn all my time here, but I think it is an interesting 
question when we see it.
    Now, the big thing that I spend a lot of my time worrying 
about is agentic AI because that is going to be disrupting 
everything. When Mr. Zywicki, you, the dealer, the car dealer 
when you can go into a car dealer and get a car and then so, 
what happens now is that you go and you strike a price for the 
car, and then the car dealer will try to steer you into some 
crappy, overpriced loan, which is a big part of their business 
model. In the agentic future that I think many of us dream 
about is that you are going to have the Consumer Reports app 
give you advice and say, okay, yep, all right. Here, you struck 
a deal for this car, and then your Consumer Reports agent will 
go out on the internet and look and see what is available for 
loans, get the low-price loans and say, thank you very much, 
Mr. Dealer, there is a better.
    Trying to preserve that kind of competition is, I think, 
what is going to be the challenge of the next decade in 
financial services. The key thing there, it seems to me, is how 
do you get unconflicted financial advice to the consumer? Who 
is it? This is the problem because when startups come up to me 
and come into my office and say, we have this great new 
personal advisor product. AI advisor, and then I say, okay, how 
are you going to monetize that? It always comes to some 
variation of, we are going to be just like Google. We will get 
everyone to trust us, and then we will abuse that trust by 
steering people into crappy, overpriced products. So, what are 
the best thoughts out there on getting unconflicted advice to 
consumers through their AI apps? Mr. Zywicki, you look like you 
have been thinking about this.
    Mr. Zywicki. I have been thinking about it, but I am not 
certain I have a great solution, except, I mean, obviously 
there has always been a market. I am sitting next to somebody 
for Consumer Reports, which has been around for almost a 
century, for unbiased information, for subscription-based 
information and the like, and I agree with you that agentic AI 
is really important. Another thing I would say is dealing with 
the emerging issues of consumer data privacy----
    Mr. Foster. Mm-hmm.
    Mr. Zywicki [continuing]. and the idea of AI, and the idea 
of bad guys, fraudsters having AI and being able to, basically, 
attack the way in which we have done consumer data security for 
years with our passwords and all that sort of stuff.
    Mr. Foster. Oh, sure, yes. Yes, when I go through the list 
of what government can actually do to help, number one on the 
list is get government support for mobile ID, digital driver's 
license as a means of reliably authenticating who you are, 
proving you are who you say you are online. Second to that is 
have the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) 
or someone like that come up with the standards of AI 
communication.
    Mr. Zywicki. Yes.
    Mr. Foster. This is something that I will be following up, 
I think, with you because that is something that would move the 
ball forward and get U.S. standards to really be promulgated 
around the world.
    Mr. Zywicki. I would enjoy that dialog. That would be 
useful.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
from Tennessee, Mr. Rose, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you Chairman Steil, and thank you, Ranking 
Member Lynch, for holding this important hearing, and thank you 
to our witnesses for taking time to be with us. Mr. Lefton, how 
do earned wage access products enable consumers to meet their 
financial obligations without incurring overdraft and late 
fees?
    Mr. Lefton. Sure. Thank you. I think that is a great 
question. I think it was alluded to before that over a hundred 
million Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and the same 
number have less than $400 in savings. EWA enables users to 
access their already-earned wages at either no cost or for a 
low nominal fee, and I think that is important because it gives 
them choice. There is competition now, and that is at a much 
lower price than the traditional predatory products out there, 
and every time they use a service like EWA over a traditional, 
high-cost product, they are putting more money in their pocket.
    Mr. Rose. So, it seems to me that one of the risks here is, 
of course, once you do this once, if it continues, then you 
have kind of accessed that resource and then you are not able 
to go back to it. Is the evidence that is what happens in fact, 
or is there evidence that consumers tap it, then pay it back, 
then tap it? How does that end up working in practice?
    Mr. Lefton. No, I think that is a great question. I think 
you are talking about cycle of debt, which EWA, to be clear, 
has nothing to do with debt. It is a frequency of pay issue, 
right? It is a timing issue, and charging interest, requiring 
minimum payments, rollovers, those are all significant features 
in a cycle of debt, none of which are present with EWA. Our 
data shows that EWA users actually spend less and save more 
when they are in control of their own finances.
    Mr. Rose. Once you collect your wages early, if you will, 
do you kind of stay in that cycle and you do that paycheck to 
paycheck? Is that the evidence, or does it kind of go and come?
    Mr. Lefton. So, I think it fluctuates. I mean, it really 
depends on every user's situation, right? It depends on their 
income--how much they make, where they live, all those kinds of 
outside factors that we do not have insight into, but I think 
it spans the entire spectrum.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you.
    Mr. Lefton. Sure.
    Mr. Rose. Mr. Palaniappan, how does earned wage access 
complement existing financial products to benefit consumers?
    Mr. Palaniappan. So, earned wage access is an additional 
tool for customers, and what it does, it helps them control the 
timing of when they get paid. So, instead of being stuck to 
this rigid biweekly or monthly pay cycle, they can choose when 
to get their pay, and they can use that along with other 
financial products. We have a number of financial products as 
well within our app. We have automated savings, credit 
monitoring, and so they all work well together. Sort of coming 
to the question on the repeated use, I think different people 
use it in different ways. It is used very often to pay bills 
and to pay rent. The most common pay cycle in the U.S. is you 
are paid every other week. Every bill is monthly. So, for every 
bill, 6 times a year, the bill is due before payday. So, what 
you can do with earned wage access is access the money when 
your bills are due instead of having delayed fees added onto 
your bill.
    We also see a lot of people who are using this as a way to 
increase their incomes. So, I did mention the government 
employee uses us with his side custom candle business, and he 
is making more money on his side business because of that. I 
spoke with another customer who works at retail. When you work 
at retail, there are different types of roles. With one role 
you are tied to a particular store location. With another role 
you are tied to a department, like a cosmetics department, and 
you cover about three different store locations. That role pays 
more, but when she was offered the higher-paying role, she did 
not take it because she could not afford to front the gas money 
and then wait to get reimbursed, and so now she uses EarnIn. 
So, when she got the offer again, she took it the next time 
because she knew that with EarnIn, she could actually afford to 
front the gas money. EarnIn has helped her stay employed at a 
higher-paying job, so it actually makes sense that she uses it 
because that is what is keeping her in that job. So, I think in 
many cases, you are seeing incomes go up, and incomes go up 
because of reasons like this.
    Mr. Rose. I think--Mr. Palaniappan, you may weigh in on 
this, and, Mr. Lefton, I think this is the point you were 
trying to make--there is a very big difference between earned 
wage access and payday lending as we know it. Mr. Lefton, weigh 
in on that. Really press down on the difference.
    Mr. Lefton. Sure. Absolutely. I think the key differences 
with any loan product and earned wage access is there are two 
components to a loan. There is debt and there is interest, and 
with EWA, there is neither. I think that is a fundamental 
difference, that when we talk about this, people need to 
understand and realize that with EWA there is no debt, with EWA 
there is no interest, and those two things together are what 
form a loan.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you. My time has expired. I yield back, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Rose. The gentleman yields back. The gentlewoman from 
Massachusetts, Ms. Pressley is now recognized for 5.
    Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am certainly glad we 
are having today's hearing to discuss buy now, pay later. 
While, admittedly, I am old enough to remember the layaway line 
decades ago when you did not get the product until you paid for 
it. We are certainly living in a different era. Klarna, Affirm, 
Afterpay, and PayPal are the four biggest buy now, pay later 
companies, and they are everywhere. With a simple press of a 
button on your phone, you can access product immediately and 
pay for it over time. To me, that does sound like a loan. A 
person is borrowing lump sum funds that they will have to pay 
back over time in the form of an installment plan, and if they 
miss payments, it can go to debt collection, show up on their 
credit report, and lower their credit score for years. Ms. 
Hand, do you agree with my assessment that buy now, pay later 
is a loan?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Yes, absolutely. You have, basically, 
two models in the marketplace. You have to pay in four or 
sometimes six, right? You pay back those four or six payments. 
There is no fee. Typically, there is no interest. That might 
not be a loan under the definition, and then you have the 
installment product, right? These are longer term. Let us just 
say you are buying an appliance for $2,500. That would come 
with actual interest. Let us say the interest is 24 percent or 
36 percent over a 24-month period. A consumer for that product 
is going to be paying not $2,500 for the product. The effect of 
that APR over 24 months is roughly $1,070.
    Ms. Pressley. All right then. Ms. Hand, before the Trump 
Administration rescinded guidance, the Consumer Financial 
Protection Bureau, and I want to underscore Consumer Protection 
Financial Bureau, took important steps to ensure proper 
treatment of these loans, like the ability to dispute charges 
and to obtain refunds. What are some of the harms that 
borrowers face now that those rights and protections are gone 
and we have people working actively to gut and to degrade the 
work of the CFPB?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Yes, it is quite alarming to see a 
marketplace evolving, frankly, in a way it should have been for 
the last 20 years to provide more access to different products 
to consumers, at the same time that the consumer protection 
regulator has shut down enforcement, examinations of financial 
institutions are not happening. This is alarming, and this is 
not the way a healthy marketplace is supposed to operate. What 
this means is the only ability is perhaps States who are 
actively looking for patterns and trying to regulate these 
products State by State. Regulation should not be our default. 
We need strong Federal floors to protect consumers.
    Ms. Pressley. Just with a quick ``yes'' or ``no'' here as 
my time is leaving us, do you think buy now, pay later 
companies are being transparent enough to ensure consumers know 
what they are signing up for?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. They could do better.
    Ms. Pressley. Okay. Thank you. Even when buy now, pay later 
lenders are operating with transparency and following Truth-in-
Lending laws, we must acknowledge that these fintech 
innovations do not get at the root problems. It is wage 
stagnation that leaves the young parents unable to keep up with 
the rising cost of living for their family. It is corporate 
greed that prioritizes profits at the expense of workers that 
are pulling double shifts. It is Donald Trump's fiscally 
chaotic and irresponsible policies that have reduced hiring and 
increased unemployment and ignored the affordability crisis 
that is plaguing our country. While fintech may help stand in 
the gap, people do not want to just get by. They want to thrive 
and prosper and achieve their dreams. So, Congress must get 
serious and fight for the people, not the corporations. I yield 
back.
    Ms. Pressley. The gentlewoman yields back. The gentleman 
from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, is recognized.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the 
witnesses for being here today.
    Fintechs are transforming the way Americans interact with 
financial services. Millions of people around the world have 
already seen their lives meaningfully improved by digital 
assets and the services provided by fintech companies. From 
expanded access to capital to faster and more secure money 
transfers across often authoritarian borders, these 
technologies are already reshaping the global financial 
landscape. I have met with countless innovators who are 
building products that meet real consumer demand and help 
families better manage their financial lives, particularly 
those who have been underserved by the traditional banking 
system. This progress, however, depends on getting the policy 
environment right. Outdated rules and inconsistent regulatory 
interpretations can slow the adoption of beneficial 
technologies, limit competition, and drive innovation offshore. 
True leadership in financial innovation means providing clear, 
predictable guardrails that promote responsible innovation here 
in the United States rather than pushing it overseas.
    Mr. Lefton, what regulatory barriers currently prevent new 
fintech companies from going to market in ways that satisfy 
clear consumer demand?
    Mr. Lefton. Sure. Thank you for the question. I think some 
of the regulatory barriers are the lack of clarity and 
ambiguity. We have seen at the State level, while numerous 
States have passed pro-EWA legislation, it can be difficult to 
comply with a patchwork of regulation, which I think, 
ultimately, flows down to the consumer, right? Clear 
regulation, unambiguous regulation, allows companies, while 
also protecting consumers, to thrive with innovation. I think 
one of the greatest examples is while we do provide EWA, we 
have also created a savings product for consumers that is free 
of charge and many of our consumers, this is their first 
savings account. We are paying 5 percent interest into their 
savings account, one that they have never had before, and all 
in the light of that, we were able to innovate, and I think 
innovation is deeply connected with clear regulation.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you for that. I will talk about the CFPB 
briefly. What steps should the Bureau take to provide clear, 
more predictable guidance for fintech firms, particularly 
smaller or early stage companies, so that compliance 
expectations are known before products are launched rather than 
enforced after the fact? What do you think about the CFPB and 
its role in this?
    Mr. Lefton. Sure. I think the CFPB, and I will only talk 
about earned wage access, but I think December 23, just a few 
weeks ago, they released their advisory opinion around earned 
wage access, and it really resolved the regulatory uncertainty, 
right? It made it very clear, and it confirmed what Stream and 
the entire industry has been saying for years that EWA is not 
credit, and that the nominal fee is not a finance charge. I 
think that is critical to the providers in innovating and 
competing, which, ultimately, leads to greater products and 
lower prices for the consumer.
    Mr. Timmons. It is almost like the last 4 years we were out 
of balance, and we got back in balance, and things are moving 
in the right direction. Weird. Professor Zywicki, in 2024, the 
CFPB took several actions related to buy now, pay later 
products, including applying aspects of the payday lending rule 
and certain Regulation Z obligations. In your view, how would 
these measures have hindered the buy now, pay later market in 
the United States?
    Mr. Zywicki. Yes, I think that is a good example of trying 
to jam new technologies into an old bucket, into an old hole. I 
mean, Ms. Hand herself was just sort of talking about sort of 
how these products are not exactly like old-fashioned products 
like credit cards and that sort of thing. This is a totally 
different product. If you pay on time, you do not have interest 
accruing, but they are talking about like sort of applying a 
regulatory framework that now only fits in perfectly as it has 
grown up over time to a brand new technology. I think what they 
really need to do is start over and think about what exactly 
are the challenges of this product for consumers and create its 
own framework rather than that blunderbuss of regulation that 
would have, I think, killed the product.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Professor. As you have outlined, 
there is real risk that misapplying legacy regulations to 
innovative products could reduce access and push consumers 
toward less transparent or less suitable alternatives, and that 
outcome would undermine, rather than advance, consumer 
protection. I think that we are moving in the right direction 
with the CFPB, and we have to keep up the good work. Thank you, 
and I will yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
from New York, Mr. Torres, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Torres. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am a Bronx boy, so I 
have no farming analogies. It has been a while since the Bronx 
was farmland.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Torres. Earned wage access is based on a simple 
proposition: if you are a worker, you should have the right to 
access the money you earn the moment you earn it and the moment 
you need it. The notion that you must wait 2 weeks or even a 
month before accessing your own earnings should be seen as a 
scandal. It should be seen as an anachronism in a world as 
technologically advanced as our own. I have constituents who 
have fallen behind on their bills despite working full time, 
who have fallen behind not because of a lack of earnings, but 
because of a lack of access to their earnings. A lack of access 
to one's earnings puts the most cash-strapped Americans at risk 
of falling victims to the abuses of payday lending and 
overdrafts. So, in Congress, we have a choice. Either we give 
working people safe and immediate access to their own earnings, 
or we set them up for financial traps like payday lending. To 
be clear, like any financial product, EWA is neither inherently 
safe nor inherently dangerous. It is only as good as its 
design. We in Congress must ensure that EWA is designed to be a 
solution to a problem rather than a problem of its own. 
Congress should adopt a regulatory framework that designs EWA 
to be a free and affordable alternative to payday loans or 
overdrafts.
    My first question to the CEO of EarnIn, do you believe, as 
I do, that EWA providers should be required by law to offer a 
free option to consumers?
    Mr. Palaniappan. Yes.
    Mr. Torres. Now, the EWA industry maintains that EWA is 
qualitatively different from credit and, therefore, should be 
regulated differently. If we accept that premise as true, it 
then logically follows that there should be no collections, 
correct?
    Mr. Palaniappan. That is correct.
    Mr. Torres. There should be no charging of interest, 
correct?
    Mr. Palaniappan. That is correct.
    Mr. Torres. There should be no late fees, correct?
    Mr. Palaniappan. That is correct.
    Mr. Torres. There should be no wage garnishment, correct?
    Mr. Palaniappan. That is correct.
    Mr. Torres. There should be no adverse credit reporting, 
correct?
    Mr. Palaniappan. That is correct.
    Mr. Torres. Right. No collections, no interest, no late 
fees, no wage garnishment, no adverse credit reporting. Simply 
put, EWA should function as a free or affordable alternative to 
payday loans and overdraft fees, correct?
    Mr. Palaniappan. That is correct.
    Mr. Torres. Now, there is a debate surrounding the 
appropriateness of applying APR to earned wage access. APR is 
deeply informative when it comes to long-term products, but 
when it comes to something as extremely short term as EWA, does 
APR inform or does it misinform? I want to make a point by way 
of illustration. Suppose I was to give you a 1-day hundred-
dollar loan with a $1 fee. The average person would consider 
that $1 fee not to be excessive or exploitive. It is $1. What 
if I were to tell you that $1 fee translates into an APR of 365 
percent, right? Three hundred and sixty-five percent sounds 
massive, and so, the trouble with applying APR to the most 
short-term product is that annualization can make even the 
smallest fees seem massive on paper. A one-dollar fee can be 
made to seem massive when presented as an annualized 
percentage. Is that a fair point?
    Mr. Palaniappan. That is correct.
    Mr. Torres. So, the question for Congress to consider is 
not whether there should be disclosure. Of course there should 
be disclosure of all fees, of all costs. What is needed is the 
right kind of disclosure: disclosure that informs rather than 
misinforms, that illuminates the truth rather than distorts it. 
So, consumer protection, proper disclosure, and innovation 
should be our policy objectives. I do not know if anyone has 
any thoughts.
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. I do.
    Mr. Torres. Yes.
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. I would agree with everything that you 
said. I think an additional standard that applies that is 
missing in this space, particularly fintech, is dynamic 
disclosure: disclosure at the right time. We have technologies 
that can deliver funds to consumers instantly. Those 
disclosures should be delivered instantly, plainly, simply in 
an accessible way. The other principle that applies is 
protective design or consumer-friendly design. So, one of the 
things that we have seen in this space, the products that we 
have looked at, is oftentimes those zero-cost options, 
particularly in the direct-to-consumer space, are hidden. The 
defaults are options where the consumers will pay a fee, even 
where there is a zero-cost option available. So, the technology 
should be designed in a way, to your point, where it functions 
so that there is no cost.
    Mr. Torres. What good is a free option if you are unaware 
of it?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Sorry?
    Mr. Torres. What good is a free option if you are unaware 
of it?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Exactly.
    Mr. Torres. Yes, so, and I feel like those are imminently 
solvable problems that I am proud to co-lead the legislation 
with Congressman Steil. He is more rural than I am, so I am 
happy to elicit your feedback.
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Thank you.
    Mr. Torres. Yep.
    Mr. Zywicki. I will just add it warms my heart to hear you 
talking about reexamining APR as a way of disclosing products 
to consumers exactly as you said. We talked about this in----
    Mr. Torres. I am not sure if I said that, but----
    Mr. Zywicki. Right, but----
    Mr. Torres. Only in the EWA context.
    Mr. Zywicki. Right, but to compare apples to apples, right, 
consumers compared to, say, an overdraft or the late fee on a 
bill, they look at dollars a lot of times rather than APR.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
from North Carolina, Mr. Moore, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Financial technology is 
transforming how Americans earn, spend, and save their money. 
From peer-to-peer payment apps and digital wallets to earned 
wage access and installation products, fintech innovations are 
responding to real consumer needs for speed and affordability. 
These products exist because they fill gaps in the traditional 
financial system, especially for consumers who have 
historically faced limited options or high costs. With my 
questions, I will start with Mr. Zywicki. Are there any 
particular populations--hourly workers, gig workers, rural 
communities--who benefit most from fintech services, and how 
are these tools especially helpful to them?
    Mr. Zywicki. Yes. The evidence on this is abundant at this 
point that traditionally underserved communities are the ones 
who benefit the most from fintech and fintech innovations, 
whether it is rural, whether it is young people. BNPL, for 
example, is used heavily by Gen Z and Millennials. Earned wage 
access obviously is very popular and used a lot by hourly 
workers who often live paycheck to paycheck. Upper-income 
people are using these more, especially BNPL, but, really, the 
value proposal proposition is for those groups. Fintech and 
fintech underwriting, use of alternative data like cash-flow 
data as opposed to credit scores and the like, the evidence on 
that is very clear that increases competition and benefits 
people most who are traditionally underserved and where 
traditional competition among banks is not very robust, which 
includes rural communities, obviously.
    Mr. Moore. Mr. Palaniappan and Mr. Lefton, how have earned 
wage access services improved financial stability for workers, 
and how are these products helping make everyday expenses more 
manageable?
    Mr. Palaniappan. Thank you for the question. The first 
thing that earned wage access does, which is what most people 
expect, is it helps people pay their bills on time so there are 
fewer late fees on bills, there are fewer other expensive fees 
because they are paying their bills on time. There are also 
nonfinancial benefits where there is less stress. So, I hear 
from our customers how they are able to send their children on 
field trips because they have access to our product, which they 
would not have been able to do otherwise, celebrate birthdays 
on the right days, go to see a dentist when the tooth starts 
aching instead of putting that off to Friday. I spoke with a 
customer. She works in healthcare and her daughter likes to 
dance. She has to pay for dance classes at the beginning of 
every month, and she would not have been able to do that 
without EarnIn. So, her daughter goes for dance classes and, 
today, takes part in dance competitions and can follow her 
passion for dance because of EarnIn.
    The other benefit that I spoke about in the testimony as 
well is that incomes go up. Incomes go up by over 10 percent. 
From the EarnIn dataset, a study on over a million customers, 
incomes went up by 11-and-a-half percent. That is about $335 
per month, and so we are seeing incomes go up as well when 
people start using earned wage access. From our data, we are 
actually seeing incomes go up faster than inflation, and so we 
are seeing wage growth in real terms as well.
    Mr. Moore. Over what time period have you seen those 
increases?
    Mr. Palaniappan. We have seen wage increases higher than 
inflation over the last 3 years.
    Mr. Moore. Mr. Lefton, did you care to respond as well?
    Mr. Lefton. Sure. Well, first, I agree with everything that 
was just said. I think one of the things we need to remember 
when we are talking about EWA is that EWA users are not 
financially illiterate. They are just experiencing a frequency-
of-pay issue, and so I think it is important we do not conflate 
the two, right? Consumers use EWA because they need to be paid 
on their own timeline, not because they do not know how to 
manage their own money. I think that is a very important 
distinction. We need to trust that the user is in the best 
position to know how and when to access their wages and manage 
their money.
    Mr. Moore. One thing that seems to have worked to me at the 
State level and otherwise is really to try to bring about 
innovation. Like the regulatory sandbox legislation, our State 
adopted that a couple of years ago, and it allows financial 
institutions and technology firms to test new products under 
the supervision of regulators. So, I guess just a follow up 
question to Mr. Zywicki: how can regulatory sandboxes help 
regulators better understand new fintech products before 
imposing broad rules?
    Mr. Zywicki. Yes. Briefly, I will just amplify on the EWA 
question some of the points that my colleagues have made here, 
which is, I think the best study on this is the Davis study, 
who, in addition to finding income goes up, also finds that 
there are no financial problems--people do not overdraft more, 
do any of that sort of stuff--as opposed to the Connecticut 
study where they found losing access to EWA led to a lot more 
payday, having to sell products, and that sort of thing. With 
respect to sandboxes, I think sandboxes are revolutionary. I 
think they are super important. The ability to get real-time 
information, tweak products. Even the discrimination-type 
questions that were being raised, I think could be addressed 
very well with regulatory sandboxes to make sure those products 
operate the way they should.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you, and my time is up. I did have other 
questions for the other witnesses, but I appreciate you all 
being here today. With that, I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. The gentlewoman 
from Texas, Ms. Garcia, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all 
the witnesses, and I first want to associate my remarks with 
the remarks of Mr. Torres. I think they were right on point. To 
the chairman, I did not sack potatoes, but I sure as hell 
picked cotton.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Garcia. We did not get paid daily. We had to work our 
asses off in the hot Texas heat all week until we saw any money 
Friday afternoon but it just underscores the point that workers 
do deserve to get paid and get paid well, and not under the 
table, to avoid all these things, and to make sure that they 
can have access to their money when they are needed.
    Like Representative Pressley said, I am waiting for the 
layaway plan because one of the things my mother used to do at 
the beginning of the cotton season is take us into town, and we 
would pick what we thought we might need for school in 
September, and then she would pay weekly until we got to 
September. Now, if you gain a little weight, you are in 
trouble, but that is how it was done, and some people are still 
living paycheck to paycheck. According to the Urban Institute, 
52 percent of Americans do not have the money to cover 
essential costs, such as housing, food, healthcare, childcare, 
transportation, and education. Fifty-two percent. That is a lot 
of people, but in my district it is even worse: 74 percent. Let 
that sink in.
    So, as many of my colleagues mentioned, there is an 
affordability crisis. To call it a hoax is just flat a hoax. 
The American people are struggling to support themselves and 
their families day by day, paycheck to paycheck. That is why 
many Americans turn to alternative income sources that we have 
been discussing today. However, as financial technology and 
these products become more common, I share my colleagues' 
concerns that without consumer protection, these products will 
only take more money out of consumers' pockets.
    Ms. Hand, as we discuss how to regulate these products, 
several people have said that especially the earned wage access 
is free. Is it really free?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. There are a variety of different 
products in the marketplace. In fact, we have recently looked 
at 23 different companies out there, both employer-sponsored 
and direct-to-consumers. The employer-sponsored products are 
typically less risky and, basically, you see what you have 
heard here today.
    Ms. Garcia. But are they free?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Those products can be free. For more of 
the direct-to-consumer products, some of them have free 
options, but then they do have fees, so they are effectively 
not free. Some of those free options we have seen are hidden, 
and consumers are defaulted into fee structures which may be 
clear and hidden. The other thing that I would add is that many 
consumers are using these on a weekly basis, so they are 
effectively stacking fees on a weekly basis and then their 
ability to repay over time. So, I would say that, effectively, 
these are not free products.
    Ms. Garcia. Okay. Now, what about the buy now, pay later? 
Is that free?
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. There are simple products, pay in 4, 
where if a consumer is successful, that is effectively a free 
service. Then you go down the installment path where these are 
loans, they are structured as such, they have interest, and I 
think one of the challenges that we have seen is oftentimes--
the consumers and our research support this--they see an 
advertisement, they go to pay for something, and they get 
offered the pay in 4 product. Then they go through the 
application, and they end up in an installment loan product 
and, oftentimes, are not really aware of the long-term effects, 
so it is not free.
    Ms. Garcia. So, do some have the APR as high as was 
illustrated by his example? I mean $1 on a hundred dollars does 
not sound bad, but once you do the math, the percentage is 
really high.
    Ms. Reynolds Hand. Yes. If that one dollar then gets 
deferred, you add on late fees. If those apply or the consumer 
simply does not have the ability to repay in the time that they 
have originally agreed to, that will put a consumer into a fee 
structure.
    Ms. Garcia. Yep. Just curious, what would you consider a 
fair fee for the service? Let us not talk yet about penalties 
and installment payments later or anything. It seems to me that 
one of these products is no more than a high-tech payday loan 
service.
    Chairman Steil. We will allow the gentlewoman to submit 
answers in the record.
    Ms. Garcia. I was just beginning to have fun.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Garcia. Thank you. Thank you to all the witnesses.
    Chairman Steil. We thank the gentlewoman. The gentlewoman 
yields back. The gentleman from California, Mr. Liccardo, is 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Liccardo. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank all the 
witnesses for their testimony and, particularly, Mr. 
Palaniappan--please forgive me if I just mispronounced your 
name--but it is good to have a local company here, and 
congratulations on the great success of your company. I 
appreciate very much what EarnIn has done to enable millions of 
American workers to have more freedom in their lives. That is 
very important. I also, by the way, appreciate Ms. Reynolds 
Hand's important observations. I think we have good players and 
we have bad players in this industry. Like all industries, we 
need transparency. We appreciate those who are transparent, and 
for those who are not, that is why we need simple, predictable 
regulations, so very much appreciate points being made all 
around.
    I would like to shift gears, though, from EWA to the 
broader topic of the hearing and the subcommittee, which is 
around fintech regulation and innovation.
    Ms. Kelley, I am going to turn to you because I know you 
represent a lot of folks in the industry. An awful lot of focus 
in recent weeks and months has been whether or not fintech 
companies can get access to the Federal payment rails--FedNow--
and other transmission means, like Fedwire. I think there has 
been a lot of discussion, certainly Treasury publicly as well 
at the Federal Reserve. There is now, I think, a request for 
information from the Fed. They are looking for feedback about 
what a skinny account might look like or a payment account as 
a, I guess, an option that would be distinct from a master 
account. I guess, regardless of whether the Fed or Congress 
creates this, clearly there needs to be some regulation on 
those fintech companies that would avail themselves of this 
opportunity and there are a lot of ideas from the Bank Policy 
Institute (BPI), from Fed, and others about what regulations 
those companies should be subject to, things like Bank Secrecy 
Act and Know Your Customer (KYC), and anti-money laundering, 
whether or not they should be prohibited from overdrafting, 
from charging interest, et cetera. Do you have some views about 
what regulations would be appropriate for us to be thinking 
about here?
    Ms. Kelley. Yes, and thank you for the question. It is a 
particularly dynamic and interesting time to be in this 
industry, and I think what you have just described reflects 
that. So, I would start by saying in the relationships that 
exist now between banks and fintechs where they partner to 
provide services, there is a holistic set of regulations. There 
were interagency guidelines that were released in 2023 that, 
effectively, require banks to ensure that their fintech 
partners are following the same regulatory requirements that 
the banks must follow. So we are operating against that 
backdrop. As we look forward and say should these 
nontraditional bank fintechs have access to the Federal 
Reserve, that is a conversation that has begun with the request 
for information (RFI) and the conversations around the skinny 
master accounts.
    We are in very early days of those conversations, and I 
know the industry as a whole is still trying to understand 
exactly what that would look like but what is clear is there 
needs to continue to be a balance between fostering innovation 
that we see from nontraditional banks, but ensuring safety and 
soundness as well. The skinny master accounts is one attempt to 
strike that balance and, again, still in the early days.
    Mr. Liccardo. Okay. So, no commitments yet about what 
concessions industry might make, about what regulations would 
be sensible for this----
    Ms. Kelley. Yes, I think it is still an open question.
    Mr. Liccardo. Okay. Well, I look forward to continuing to 
engage with you and with your members to understand what that 
might look like.
    Ms. Kelley. Absolutely.
    Mr. Liccardo. I think this is coming at us pretty fast, and 
we probably need to understand best how to respond. Regardless, 
I appreciate the efforts of many fintech companies to innovate 
in a space where I think consumers do need more choices, and I 
appreciate the work that is being done by many of the companies 
here. Thank you.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. I would like to 
thank all of our members for their questions today, all of our 
witnesses for your testimony today.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the 
chair. The questions will be forwarded to the witnesses for 
their response. Witnesses will please respond no later than 
February 17.

    [The information referred to can be found in the appendix.]

    Chairman Steil. The hearing stands adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 12:01 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                APPENDIX

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