[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
OVERSIGHT OF FRAUD AND MISUSE OF
FEDERAL FUNDS IN MINNESOTA: PART II
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND
GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MARCH 4, 2026
__________
Serial No. 119-59
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63-019 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Robert Garcia, California, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Maxwell Frost, Florida
Pat Fallon, Texas Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Byron Donalds, Florida Greg Casar, Texas
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Jasmine Crockett, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Emily Randall, Washington
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Wesley Bell, Missouri
Nick Langworthy, New York Lateefah Simon, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Dave Min, California
Elijah Crane, Arizona Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
Vacancy
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Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Ryan Giachetti, Chief Counsel
Daniel Falcone, Professional Staff Member
Robert Flores, Professional Staff Member
Jack Furla, Professional Staff Member
Mary Woodard, Senior Counsel
Mallory Cogar, Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
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C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. James Comer, U.S. Representative, Chairman.................. 1
Hon. Robert Garcia, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member.......... 3
WITNESSES
The Honorable Tim Walz, Governor, State of Minnesota
Oral Statement................................................... 5
The Honorable Keith Ellison, Attorney General, State of Minnesota
Oral Statement................................................... 7
Reverend Mariah Furness Tollgaard (Minority Witness), Senior
Pastor, Hamline Church United Methodist
Oral Statement................................................... 8
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ``Attorney General Keith Ellison,
My Meeting Before Feeding Our Future Raid Was Routine'';
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, ACLU, ``New Filings Detail Harrowing Accounts of ICE
and Border Patrol Violence''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, City of Minneapolis, ``Operation Metro Surge Results
in 203 Million Impact''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ``Source Disputes Story Prompting
Trump's Comments About Somalis in MN''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, Becker's Hospital Review, ``States Ranked by
Medicaid Fraud Dollars in 2022''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, New York Times, ``The ICE Shooting Came During an
Operation Focused on Somali Immigrants''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, AP News, ``US Citizen Says ICE Detained Him in
Underwear in Frigid Cold With No Warrant''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Advisory Opinion from MN AG Ellison, December, 2025;
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Advisory Opinion from MN AG Ellison, February, 2025;
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* H.F. 2354--Medical Assistance Protection (MAP) Act; submitted
by Rep. Garcia.
* MN Stat. 388.051; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* MN Stat. 631.50; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* MN Stat. 8.01; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Notification from CMS, RY 2025 Medicaid Improper Payment
Rates; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Report, Cato, ``Public Corruption by State''; submitted by
Rep. Garcia.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Aimee Bock Alleges Gov Tim Walz, AG Keith
Ellison Knew of MN Fraud''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, AlphaNews, ``Anti-ICE Agitators Set Up Blockade on
MN Street, Check Divers' License Plates''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Biden Clemency for Convicted Fraudsters
Met With Outrage, `Slap in the face' ''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, NBC News, ``Biden's Clemency and Pardon List
Includes Former Elected Official, Lawyers and Medical Bill
Company Owner''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Conservatives Blast Dems, Walz for
Likening ICE Agents to Nazi Police Force''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, Fox9, ``ICE Restricted From MN-Owned Parking Areas,
Mayor Frey Orders''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, NYP, ``Minnesota AG Who Took $10K From Scammers Says
Fraud Scandal is `Political Theater' ''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, MN Reformer, ``MN AG's Legal Opinion Could Threaten
Some County Agreements With ICE''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``MN Grandma Jailed for Defying Walz COVID
Lockdown Orders Warns `You Do Not Want Tyranny At This Level'
''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, The Express, ``MN Mom Jailed Over COVID Accuses Walz
of `Tyranny' ''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller, ``Mother Ponders `Taking Out' Her Own
Kids To Avoid ICE''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, North Dakota Monitor, ``North Dakota Judge Blasts
Biden for Setting Fraudsters Free''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller, ``SCOOP, Tim Walz Accused of
Stonewalling Key Probe as Somali Fraud Sweeps His State'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Mail, ``The Drug Dealers, Thieves and Gang
Leaders Who Are Granted Clemency by Biden''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ``Tim Walz Urges Minnesotans to `Resist'
Federal `Occupation' ''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Reason, ``Tim Walz Was a COVID-19 Tyrant'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, CNN, ``Victims Shocked After Biden Grants Clemency
to Kids for Cash''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ``Walz, Omar Using ICE Operations to
Distract from Fraud Scandal''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Newsweek, ``Who Has Joe Biden Pardoned, Full List'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Memo, Judiciary Dems, ``Trump's Pardons Cheat Victims'';
submitted by Rep. Brown.
* Matthew 25 NIV; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* Article, Alpha News MN, ``Vance, Rosen Warn Minnesota,
Medicaid Funds Frozen as Fraud Prosecutions Ramp Up'';
submitted by Rep. Comer.
* Staff Report, ``The Cost of Doing Nothing: How Tim Walz and
Keith Ellison Fueled Minnesota's Fraud Explosion''; submitted
by Rep. Comer.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ``Minnesota Fraud--What is the
`Right' Number'' by Jim Nobles; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Article, The Guardian, ``Fraud Focus Why is Trump Granting
Clemency''; submitted by Rep. Frost.
* Report, Cato, ``Public Corruption by State''; submitted by
Rep. Garcia.
* Letter from America First Policy Institute, to Chairman Comer
re fraud; submitted by Rep. Gill.
* Report, ``MN Financial and Compliance Report on Federally-
Assisted Programs''; submitted by Rep. Grothman.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ``Gov Walz Calls for Tougher
Medicaid Fraud Penalties as FBI Investigates Autism Centers'';
submitted by Rep. Higgins.
* Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. McCollum.
* Article, KARE 11, ``KARE 11 Investigates--Evicted, Homeless,
Paying the Price for Minnesota's Fraud Crisis''; submitted by
Rep. McGuire.
* Article, Hechinger Report, ``Parental Stress, Raids, and
Isolation''; submitted by Rep. Pressley.
* Letter, State Legislators Tell Congress; submitted by Rep.
Pressley.
* Article, The Guardian, ``Somalis are the Scapegoat'';
submitted by Rep. Randall.
* Article, ProPublica, ``How Trump Has Exploited Pardons'';
submitted by Rep. Randall.
* Article, HuffPost, ``Military Commander Tells Troops'';
submitted by Rep. Randall.
* Article, Washington Post, ``Trump's Pardons Wipe Out
Payments''; submitted by Rep. Randall.
* Article, ABC News, ``Trump's Flurry of Pardons''; submitted
by Rep. Randall.
* Report, ``Roadmap to Program Integrity and Fraud
Prevention''; submitted by Rep. Timmons.
* Article, The Guardian, ``Fraud Focus, Why is Trump Granting
Clemency''; submitted by Rep. Tlaib.
* Article, Reuters, ``Trump Aide Homan Accepted $50,000'';
submitted by Rep. Walkinshaw.
The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.
ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Keith Ellison; submitted by
Rep. Comer.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Keith Ellison; submitted by
Rep. Jack.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Tim Walz; submitted by Rep.
Comer.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Tim Walz; submitted by Rep.
Turner.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Tim Walz; submitted by Rep.
Jack.
These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be
available upon request.
OVERSIGHT OF FRAUD AND MISUSE OF
FEDERAL FUNDS IN MINNESOTA: PART II
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WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 2026
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:04 a.m., in
HVC-210, U.S. Capitol Visitor Center, Hon. James Comer
[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Comer, Jordan, Turner, Gosar,
Foxx, Grothman, Cloud, Palmer, Higgins, Sessions, Biggs, Mace,
Fallon, Donalds, Perry, Timmons, Burchett, Boebert, Luna,
Langworthy, Burlison, Crane, Jack, McGuire, Gill, Garcia,
Norton, Lynch, Krishnamoorthi, Khanna, Mfume, Brown, Stansbury,
Frost, Lee, Casar, Crockett, Randall, Subramanyam, Ansari,
Bell, Simon, Min, Walkinshaw, Pressley, and Tlaib.
Also present: Representatives Emmer and McCollum.
Chairman Comer. The hearing of the Committee on Oversight
and Government Reform will come to order.
I want to welcome everyone here today.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN JAMES COMER
REPRESENTATIVE FROM KENTUCKY
Good morning. Today's hearing is about a failure of
leadership, plain and simple. For years, Governor Tim Walz and
Attorney General Keith Ellison presided over one of the most
extensive breakdowns of oversight this Committee has ever
examined. Billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from social
services programs while warnings piled up, whistleblowers spoke
out, and state officials chose delay and denial over action.
Federal prosecutors estimate that as much as $9 billion may
have been stolen from just 14 Medicaid programs administered by
the State of Minnesota. Those programs have cost taxpayers more
than $18 billion since 2018, and investigators believe that
half or more of that spending may have been lost to fraud. And
that did not happen overnight. As our investigation has shown,
it happened because state leadership failed repeatedly to
intervene. Governor Walz has claimed his Administration
addressed fraud ``very early,'' but that claim does not hold up
to the facts. His Administration kept payments flowing.
In January, in the first hearing of this series, we heard
from Minnesota State representatives who made clear this fraud
was not hidden. It was known, documented, and repeatedly
brought to the attention of state leadership. In case after
case, state agencies identified red flags and received warnings
from auditors and employees but continued to send money out the
door, not because they lacked authority to intervene, but
because they feared lawsuits, bad press, and political
backlash. While Governor Walz hesitated, taxpayers lost
billions.
Attorney General Ellison has likewise claimed his office
was aggressively holding fraudsters accountable, but when his
statements were tested against the record, they fell apart. In
the Feeding Our Future case, Governor Walz and Attorney General
Ellison publicly suggested that courts forced the state to
continue payments. The judges in that case took the
extraordinary step of publicly correcting them. The truth is
the state made a choice, once again, to keep sending the money
out the door. The Feeding Our Future scandal alone involved
nearly $300 million stolen from programs meant to feed children
during the pandemic. We are talking about fake invoices, meals
that never existed, luxury cars, and overseas investments, all
paid by the American taxpayer. Today, dozens have been
convicted, the fraud was real, the warning signs were obvious,
and state leadership failed to act.
The same pattern repeats across Minnesota's social services
system. In the Childcare Assistance Program, providers racked
up dozens and, in some cases, more than a hundred violations
and still collected millions. Facilities shut down and reopened
the same day under new names at the same address. This went on
for years. Housing Stabilization Services, a program expected
to cost $2.6 million annually, exploded to over a hundred
million dollars a year. Federal prosecutors have described it
as ``easy money.'' Providers built services never delivered
while the Walz Administration failed to intervene until Federal
agents showed up, and when state employees tried to stop this,
they were silenced and retaliated against for even daring to
notice the fraud. We have spoken with over 30 whistleblowers,
many of them current employees and Democrats, who say they were
ignored, retaliated against, and even surveilled for raising
concerns. Instead of protecting the whistleblowers, the Walz
Administration protected the system that enabled the fraud.
We are taking oversight of fraud seriously, and today, I
hope the Democrats will do the same, but their track record is
not promising. We followed up with the whistleblowers when
state leaders ignored them. Republican staff spent 36 hours and
46 minutes in nine transcribed interviews with current and
former Minnesota State officials. Democrats, however, only
asked 3 hours and 14 minutes' worth of questions. That is
inexcusable and, frankly, embarrassing. Taxpayers deserve
better.
We are working with the Trump Administration, which is
taking a whole-of-government approach to stop fraud before
money is stolen. What we have uncovered in Minnesota is not a
paperwork error or a few bad actors slipping through the
cracks. It is sustained failure of leadership. Governor Walz
and Attorney General Ellison were warned repeatedly, auditors
raised red flags, employees sounded alarms, invoices did not
make sense, and still the money kept flowing. While state
officials hesitated, billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen
from programs meant to serve children, the disabled, and
families in crisis. While whistleblowers were silenced,
fraudsters got rich. Accountability should not begin only after
Federal prosecutors step in and cleanup the damage.
Accountability should compel leaders to act, and here, they did
not. Today, this Committee expects answers, and we expect an
explanation for why it took Federal law enforcement, not state
leadership, to finally turn off the spigot.
Before we proceed, I would like to ask unanimous consent to
enter the Committee's interim staff report titled, ``The Cost
of Doing Nothing: How Tim Walz and Keith Ellison Fueled
Minnesota's Fraud Explosion,'' into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
And with that, I now yield to Ranking Member Garcia for his
opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER ROBERT GARCIA
REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Chairman Comer. I want to thank, of
course, the Governor for being here today, the Attorney General
as well. And to Reverend Mariah Tollgaard, thank you so much
for being here. I especially, though, want to thank the
Minnesotans that I know have traveled here to be with us today
to witness this hearing, but also in solidarity of the horrors
and terrors that are happening, not just in Minnesota, but that
are happening across the country.
Now, we look forward to hearing directly on what life in
Minnesota has been like thanks to the Trump Administration's
actions, and the truth is that Donald Trump and Republicans
have cut billions of dollars--billions of dollars--from
healthcare and food assistance. That is a reality. Instead,
with that money, they have used it to hire officers who are now
terrorizing cities and killing Americans. That is where our
taxpayer dollars have gone. We have taken from food assistance,
we have taken from healthcare, and we super funded terror on
American streets.
Now, Donald Trump has unleashed chaos against innocent
Americans and across Minnesota, and we are going to talk about
that today, terror that has actually impacted real families and
kids like Liam Ramos, who have been used, as we know, as bait,
and we all know Liam's story really well. The reality is
American citizens, innocent kids, people have been brutalized
and ripped away from their families. They have been thrown into
detention centers with horrible conditions that people are
literally dying in these centers. Peaceful Americans have been
killed by Federal officers and agents and labeled them as
domestic terrorists or assassins by their own government. Where
is the hearing and the outrage for those actions?
Now, Alex Pretti, as we all know, a VA nurse was peacefully
exercising his First and Second Amendment rights when he was
pepper sprayed, tackled, disarmed, and then shot repeatedly in
the back. Renee Good, a mom who told an officer, ``I am not mad
at you,'' was shot dead just moments after. And this pattern of
violence and lawlessness, we have seen, of course, all over the
country. Now, our Committee and Democrats have documented over
590 cases of suspected misconduct by President Trump and Kristi
Noem's immigration and enforcement agents across the country,
not just in Minnesota. There have been 240 incidents of
violence or concerning use of force, and 181 have involved
United States citizens. Now, we have heard testimony that
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)'s training has
actually completely changed, and now it actually teaches our
agents to violate the rights of American citizens. That is what
we are teaching now to Federal agents, and this is just the tip
of the iceberg. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and ICE
are out of control and must be held accountable by the
Congress. Now, Oversight Democrats have been partnering to hold
hearings to investigate these abuses, to hold DHS Secretary
accountable, Stephen Miller, Greg Bovino, and make no mistake:
this is Donald Trump's personal police and military force he is
unleashing on American streets.
Now, the hearing that we have today is going to build on
those investigations. Operation Metro Surge, which we are going
to hear a lot about today, this is really about, not just what
is happening in Minnesota through that operation, but the ways
that President Trump has waged his own personal war on
Minnesota. Of course we are talking about fraud, according to
our Republican colleagues, but instead of improving systems to
prevent future fraud, Trump has also cutoff $259 million in
Medicaid funding to the state. He has threatened Federal food
aid for 600,000 Minnesotans, including 200,000 kids. President
Trump has tried to use fraud as his excuse for all of this, but
what is really happening is violence, terror, death,
destruction, and ripping away services from those that need it.
You do not fight fraud by issuing Presidential pardons to
fraudsters. You do not fight fraud from ripping away food
assistance to kids.
Now, since his reelection, Trump has also given out jail
free cards to dozens of actual real fraudsters who could get
out of repaying their victims more than $1 billion. Where is
the fraud hearing on those abuses? And we know that you just do
not fight fraud by singling out states led by Democrats and
ignoring states led by Republicans. Every single person here,
and I know the Governor and the Attorney General believe this
as well, we all want to fight fraud, waste, and abuse in
government. Oklahoma, by the way, and Alabama lead the Nation
in SNAP fraud. In Texas and Florida, a Russian citizen has been
arrested for submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent
claims and funneling millions overseas. Where are those
hearings? Where is the Governor of Oklahoma, or Alabama, or
Texas, or Florida?
I also want to note this. Because of the Trump
Administration's illegal and unconstitutional actions, we know
there are now 31 of 64 lawyers at the Minnesota U.S. Attorney's
Office that have left. That is stunning. The lead attorney
responsible for pursuing these fraud cases has left because the
Trump Administration ordered them, we know, to investigate
Renee Good's widow, not her killer. They were ordered to
investigate Renee Good's widow, not her killer. If the
President cared at all about fraud, we would not have all of
these officers with all this illegal behavior on Minnesota
streets.
And we should remember that the Trump Administration tried
to use Operation Metro Surge as leverage to seize Minnesota's
voter rolls. The Trump Administration was never serious about
addressing fraud in Minnesota. Instead, they have been
interested in election conspiracy theories and terrorizing
kids, and they have accused the Governor and Attorney General
of covering up fraud, only to investigate them and turn up
actually no evidence. What they are trying to do is convince
Americans that there is a good reason for violence, for
killings, and for violations of the law. That is not
acceptable, and we are not going to take that here today.
I want to thank our witnesses again for being here, and I
yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Ranking Member yields back. I would
like to welcome our witnesses. First, we have Tim Walz,
Governor of the State of Minnesota. Governor Walz first took
office in January 2019. Next, we have Keith Ellison, Attorney
General of the State of Minnesota. Attorney General Ellison
also first took office in January 2019. Finally, we have
Reverend Mariah Furness Tollgaard, Senior Pastor, Hamline
Church, United Methodist. Thank you all so much for joining us
today, and we look forward to your testimony.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please
stand and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Governor Walz. I do.
Mr. Ellison. I do.
Reverend Tollgaard. I do.
Chairman Comer. Let the record show that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative, and please take a seat. We
appreciate you being here today and look forward to your
testimony.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement and they will appear in full in the hearing record.
Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. As a reminder,
please press the button on the microphone in front of you so
that it is on and the Members can hear you. When you begin to
speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After 4
minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes
on, your 5 minutes have expired, and we would ask that you
please wrap up.
I now recognize Governor Walz for his opening statement.
Governor?
STATEMENT OF HON. TIM WALZ
GOVERNOR, STATE OF MINNESOTA
Governor Walz. Thank you, Chairman Comer, Ranking Member
Garcia, and Members of the Committee. I am proud to be here
today as the Governor of the great State of Minnesota. Under my
leadership, Minnesota has dedicated its resources to ensuring
that all Minnesotans can live dignified and full lives with
access to top-notch public schools, quality healthcare, good
jobs. Thanks to these initiatives, Minnesota has been ranked as
one of the best states to raise a family in, one of the best
states to find a job in, and one of the best states to live in.
Although Minnesota's programs have overwhelmingly achieved
their intended purposes, they are not immune from fraud. I will
be the first to acknowledge that. But let me be clear. In
Minnesota, if you defraud public programs, if you steal
taxpayer money, we will find you, we will prosecute you, we
will convict you, and we will throw you in jail.
In this anti-fraud mission, we keep good company. Across
the country, our Nation's Governors work hard every single day
to combat fraud in their programs. But even as we confront
issues similar to our sister states, the people of Minnesota
have been singled out and targeted for political retribution at
an unparalleled scale, including blocking Medicaid
reimbursements to our state just last week. Under the guise of
combating fraud, the Federal Government has flooded Minnesota
with masked, untrained, and unaccountable agents who are
wreaking havoc in our communities.
On the streets of Minnesota, Federal agents have entered
U.S. citizens' homes who have committed no crimes. They have
violated the constitutional rights of our citizens. They have
ignored court orders. They have shot first and asked questions
later. Time and again, they have gaslit us by demanding that we
ignore what we see before our very eyes, but the American
people are not so easily fooled. The image of this brutal
campaign are seared into our collective memory: the fragile
innocence of the 5-year-old boy in a bunny hat being let away
from his family; the maddening cruelty of a barely clothed man,
a U.S. citizen, being dragged from his house in the dead of
winter; the sheer devastation we feel seeing the lifeless
bodies of Renee Good and Alex Pretti.
Long after the Federal Government's agents of chaos pack up
and leave, and long after the fraudsters in whose name this
hearing was supposedly called, are prosecuted and imprisoned,
the good people of Minnesota will still be picking up the
pieces from these senseless acts of cruelty and violence. As we
forge ahead, I hope Minnesotans will remain grounded in a sense
of justice, a sense of right and wrong. We know that the way to
deter crime is to pursue offenders regardless of who they are,
not to pardon them because of who they know. We understand that
a key to keeping our people safe is to allow prosecutors to
uphold the law, not to punish them for refusing to violate it.
And we appreciate that public trust comes from building common
sense, anti-fraud safeguards into our programs, not by tearing
down established norms.
I have been invited here today to talk about how Minnesota
pursues these objectives, and I hope we can have a conversation
about how to strengthen program integrity in every state in the
Nation. A single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar we
cannot tolerate. That is why as Governor, I have taken decisive
action. I appointed a head of program integrity to oversee
statewide anti-fraud efforts. I created the position of
Inspector General at the Minnesota Department of Education. At
the Department of Human Services, I ordered data-driven reviews
and, where appropriate, corrective action against providers. I
have directed my Administration to work with our partners in
state, Federal, and tribal law enforcement to make sure that
fraudsters go to jail. Our cooperation with the FBI and the
Department of Justice have led to serious criminal charges for
over 75 individuals. Most importantly, year in and year out,
and long before Minnesota programs were featured on right-wing
social media, I have worked with the Minnesota legislature to
give state agencies the authority they need to take action
based on red flags when they discover them.
There is undoubtedly more to do. We will continue to do the
important work of combating fraud, but as we do so, we are
going to remain true to Minnesota principles, we will feed our
hungry children, we will help the poor afford healthcare, we
will assist people with disabilities while also keeping fraud
in check. We will demonstrate our decency, our integrity, and
never yield to political scapegoating, particularly of our most
vulnerable communities.
In these extraordinarily trying times, the people of
Minnesota have come together to show the world their values. I
am proud and honored to be their Governor, and I look forward
to today's questions.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Governor. We now recognize
Attorney General Ellison.
STATEMENT OF HON. KEITH ELLISON
ATTORNEY GENERAL, STATE OF MINNESOTA
Mr. Ellison. Thank you, Chairman Comer, and thank you,
Ranking Member Garcia, and thank you to all the Members of the
Committee. My name is Keith Ellison, and I have the honor of
serving as Minnesota's Attorney General. You have invited me
here today to speak about the topic I feel very strongly about:
fraud enforcement. I look forward to discussing the
contributions of my office and the contributions we have made
to fighting fraud in our state. Fraud in government programs is
reprehensible. It takes food from the tables of the hungry. It
takes shelter from those without it. I have worked every day as
Attorney General to hold fraudsters accountable, and I am proud
of our record.
We have won 300 Medicaid fraud convictions, more than any
other state of similar size, and recovered over $80 million for
Minnesota taxpayers. We have returned tens of millions of
dollars to victims of consumer fraud in Minnesota. Since 2019,
our Charities Division has resolved over 50 investigations and
dissolved 17 sham nonprofits. It is important to note that
under Minnesota law, my office has limited jurisdiction over
criminal matters. The only kind of criminal case we can
prosecute all on our own is Medicaid fraud. Any other kind of
criminal case must be referred to us by county attorneys.
Still, we have punched above our weight where we do have
criminal jurisdiction. I am proud that over the past six years,
my Medicaid Fraud Control Unit has ranked fifth in the Nation
in fraud convictions. Last week, I urged the state legislators
to pass a bipartisan Medical Assistance Protection Act, which
would give us additional resources to prosecute Medicaid
fraudsters. Where fraud occurs outside of our jurisdiction, my
office has and will continue assisting our local and Federal
partners. When our help is requested, we support our 87 county
attorneys in Minnesota, and we regularly coordinate with
Federal investigators and prosecutors to combat fraud. That
type of collaboration between enforcers at all levels of the
government is essential in this fight, and that is why, if we
are to discuss law enforcement efforts in Minnesota, we cannot
ignore the devastating effects of Operation Metro Surge.
As you know, the Trump Administration, on the pretext of
fighting fraud, unleashed over 3,000 masked armed agents on the
streets of Minnesota, and as a result, two U.S. citizens were
killed by Federal agents, Renee Good and Alex Pretti. Federal
law enforcement still refuses to cooperate with us in
investigating their deaths. Young, innocent children were
detained and traumatized. Schools and businesses were forced to
close, costing countless families their jobs, their
livelihoods, their education, and costing our state hundreds of
millions of dollars in economic damage. Operation Metro Surge
did nothing to address fraud in our state, it harmed our
economy, it scarred our people, and it dealt a devastating blow
to fraud enforcement in Minnesota.
As a result of Metro Surge, Federal prosecutors' efforts to
fight fraud in Minnesota have suffered a major setback. In the
U.S. Attorney's Office, six high-ranking attorneys resigned
because of the Department of Justice pressured them to
investigate Renee Good's grieving widow. Eight more prosecutors
then followed. The remaining staff should be spending their
time prosecuting fraudsters and criminals. Instead, they are
drowning in immigration-related petitions resulting from
Operation Metro Surge.
Mr. Chair, Members of the Committee, we cannot combat fraud
without consistent messaging and support from our political
leaders. All sides--Republicans and Democrats, the Federal
Government and the states--must work together if we are going
to win the fight against those who would steal from the public.
We need our leaders to unite in that effort, not to use it as a
political tool to score political points. I stand ready and
willing to work with the Members of this Committee to advance
the cause of holding fraudsters accountable. Now more than
ever, we need coordinated, cooperative engagement across law
enforcement if we are to achieve our goals. I look forward to
your questions.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, General. I now recognize
Reverend Tollgaard for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF REVEREND MARIAH FURNESS TOLLGAARD
(MINORITY WITNESS), SENIOR PASTOR
HAMLINE CHURCH UNITED METHODIST
Reverend Tollgaard. Chairman, Ranking Member, Members of
the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I
am the Reverend Mariah Tollgaard, and I serve as Senior Pastor
at Hamline Church, United Methodist in St. Paul, Minnesota. I
come before you today in my personal capacity as a pastor, as a
citizen, as a mother, an ordinary Minnesotan who has witnessed
up close the fear and harm that Operation Metro Surge has
inflicted on our state.
The hearing today is about fraud in Minnesota, which is
serving as a pretext for the terror the Federal Government has
brought to the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as
a rationale for deploying 3,000 Federal immigration enforcement
agents into our state in operations that target the most
vulnerable among us, but are indiscriminately impacting all of
us. Let me tell you about what this looks like where I live.
In my church, Members have been afraid to come to worship
and have even postponed funerals. An elderly Hmong man in our
city, a U.S. citizen, was taken from his home in the freezing
cold, wearing only his underwear and a blanket. ICE vehicles
drive recklessly through our neighborhoods in packs of four to
six, stopping people of color for proof of citizenship,
including a local police officer. In St. Paul Public Schools
where my three daughters attend, nearly a quarter of students
enrolled in distance learning because families were too afraid
to leave their homes. My 8-year-old struggles to sleep at night
because she is afraid ICE agents might break into our house. At
local elementary schools in Minnesota and across the country,
students are practicing drills for what to do if ICE is near
their school. Let that sit with you: American children are now
practicing two kinds of drills at school, one for an active
shooter and one to protect themselves from their own
government. That is not security. That is a Nation failing its
children.
This is happening to all of our neighbors in Minnesota.
Every Minnesotan has stories that will stay with you, from
hearing of someone hiding in a walking cooler or the back room
when ICE stormed into their workplace, to friends and family
members being followed when dropping off their children at
daycare. In Minnesota, we love our neighbors. We care for one
another, and because we believe that every person bears the
image of God, we have built systems that reflect that belief:
free meals for all children, healthcare for families who need
it, schools where every kid belongs. That is what love of
neighbor looks like in action.
This Administration has targeted Minnesota because we live
out our values of loving our neighbors. These tactics aimed at
undermining those values have not succeeded. When unidentified
masked agents appeared on our streets, Minnesotans put on their
own uniforms and it said, ``Neighbor.'' Motivated by faith and
conscience, we bought groceries for families in hiding. We paid
rent. We drove children to school. We stood vigil at mosques.
We served as constitutional observers. We pledged to care for
children if parents were detained. We sang, we marched, we
prayed. As a pastor, I say to you, if you feel even a flicker
of discomfort hearing these stories, pay attention to it. If
you hear about children like Liam Ramos, if you saw the videos
of the murders of Alex Pretti and Renee Good, if you know of
workers arrested in the very restaurants where they serve
Federal agents their meals, if you understand that citizens and
legal residents have been wrongfully detained and something in
you tightens, that is not partisanship. That is conscience. In
my faith tradition, we call that the still quiet voice, the
voice of God. It is not too late to listen, to change our
minds, our hearts, and our policies.
To the Members of this Committee and our leaders across
government, the question I leave with you is simple. What are
you willing to do about it? Your silence has a cost, and it is
being paid right now by children who cannot sleep, families who
cannot grieve, and communities that are hollowed out. To
Americans across the country and those watching from home, and
particularly to the families still too afraid to leave their
houses, there are more people fighting for you than you know.
Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25, ``Whatever you do for the least
of these, you do unto Me.'' History will tell its story about
us, but long before then, our own souls will know whether we
stood with them or turned away. No Nation can build a true
future on the terror of its own people. Security built on fear
will shatter the first time it is tested. Only a community that
chooses love of neighbor over fear will endure, and that is
still within our power to become.
Thank you for allowing me to share our story. I am deeply
proud to be a Minnesotan.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. Without objection, Majority
Whip, Tom Emmer from Minnesota, and Representative McCollum,
also of Minnesota, are waived on to the Committee for the
purpose of questioning witnesses at today's Committee hearing.
Without objection, so ordered.
Okay. I would like to recognize Representative McCollum for
a UC.
Ms. McCollum. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to, for
the record, have a unanimous request put in with the statement.
Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
We will now begin our questions, and Chair recognizes the
Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Mr. Jordan from
Ohio.
Mr. Jordon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, why didn't
you tell the truth? Why didn't you just tell the truth about
the Feeding Our Future program? This program, in my
understanding, received $3 million the first year, within a
couple years was getting $200 million of taxpayer money.
Whistleblowers raised concerns. As the Chairman said, auditors
raised concerns. Everybody raised concerns. March 30, 2021, the
payments are stopped, and a little over a month later, the
payments are restarted. Why didn't you tell the truth about why
you restarted the payments?
Governor Walz. Well, Chairman, we did tell you, and Feeding
Our Future (FOF) grew because of the pandemic, and----
Mr. Jordon. I did not ask that question. I said why didn't
you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? The
payments stopped because there were concerns obviously, or you
would not stop the payments. Then they are restarted a month
later. What was the reason for restarting the payments?
Governor Walz. My understanding was the agency believed
that the court had required them to make those payments.
Mr. Jordon. And that was false, wasn't it, and you repeated
that, and you repeated.
Governor Walz. I think that is----
Mr. Jordon. You said that, didn't you? You said that is one
of the reasons----
Governor Walz. I do not think----
Mr. Jordon. You said the reason you restarted is because
the court ordered you to do so. Is that right?
Governor Walz. I do not believe that is settled yet to the
best of my knowledge.
Mr. Jordon. Well, I think it is because the court did
something that--I do not know if I have ever seen it. They
issued a statement saying you were wrong in what you were
saying. This is from the court. It says, ``Feeding Our Future
v. Minnesota Department of Education Correcting Reports and
Statements by Governor Tim Walz concerning Orders Issued by the
Court.'' Here is what the judge says: ``Governor Tim Walz told
the media that the Minnesota Department of Education attempted
end payments to FOF because of possible fraud, but that Judge
Guthmann ordered payments to continue in April 2021.'' Next
sentence, ``That is false.'' So, you said something was not
true. He further states this, Judge Guthmann, or the court says
this, ``Judge Guthman never ordered the Department of Education
to resume payments to Feeding Our Future in April 2021 or at
any other time.'' So, I want to know why didn't you tell the
truth?
Governor Walz. Congressman, the attorneys at the Department
of Education interpreted that differently. Both of those judges
are no longer on the bench, and I think that interpretation----
Mr. Jordon. Let me just read the very first sentence, the
first seven words. This is not some unnamed source talking to
The New York Times. This is not some anonymous source talking
to whatever, Minnesota Star Tribune or whatever your paper is.
This is the court speaking. First sentence, first seven words:
``Due to inaccurate statements by the Governor, Ramsey County
District Court Judge has issued and authorized that this
following news is released.'' That is pretty straightforward.
So, the court is lying?
Governor Walz. I cannot tell you, Congressman, but the
interpretation was----
Mr. Jordon. Well, somebody is lying. Somebody is, because
you cannot say the court ordered you to restart the payments,
and then the court says we did not order you to restart the
payments. So, either you are lying, or the court is lying, and
I am just asking you, which one is it?
Governor Walz. I just simply know what the attorneys at the
agency believed that it was a misinterpretation.
Mr. Jordon. Could it be----
Governor Walz. And I would note that those payments----
Mr. Jordon. Could it be you were trying to hide behind the
court, Governor? Could that maybe be the reason why you issued
the statements you did and why the court had to do something
you never see done before? They issue a press statement saying
you are wrong. The Governor is wrong. His statement is, their
words, not mine, ``false.'' Could that be the reason?
Governor Walz. That was not the interpretation of the
attorneys, and you know how courts work. You can appeal those,
Congressmen, as you well know. I am sure there----
Mr. Jordon. Was it all about politics, Governor?
Governor Walz. No, it is about taking care of our people,
which Minnesota does better than anyone else.
Mr. Jordon. Yes. These programs go from $3 million. The
Behavioral Intervention Program went from $3 million to $400
million in five years. The housing stabilization went from $2.6
million to $104 million. The Integrated Community Supports went
from $4.6 million to $170 million in three years. And this is
unbelievable what is happening, and you are trying to hide
behind some pretend court order, some court order that did not
exist. Governor, who is Kayseh Magan?
Governor Walz. I do not know who Keyseh Magan is.
Mr. Jordon. Well, I will tell you. Mr. Magan is a Somali-
American and a fraud investigator in the guy beside you's
office, in the Attorney General's office, and here is what he
said: ``There was a perception that forcefully tackling this
issue might cause political backlash among the Somali
community, which is a core voting bloc.'' Did that have
anything to do with this whole fraud scheme that went on in
your state, Governor?
Governor Walz. It did not, Congressman.
Mr. Jordon. It did not. So, now you are saying Mr. Kayseh
Magan is lying, too?
Governor Walz. I am not.
Mr. Jordon. You are the only one telling the truth in the
whole state. Mr. Magan, who is a fraud investigator at the
Attorney General's office says it is politics. The court said
you were stating----
Governor Walz. I could not speak for Mr. Magan. You asked
me a question.
Mr. Jordon. I know. I am asking----
Governor Walz. I said no when you asked me the question.
Mr. Jordon. And I am saying Kayseh Magan said just the
opposite.
Governor Walz. I do not know. You----
Mr. Jordon. So, the court is wrong and Kayseh Magan is
wrong, and you are the only guy right. How many people have
been indicted in your state right now? Do you know, Governor?
Governor Walz. I do not have those numbers with me.
Mr. Jordon. You do not? Ninety-eight people been indicted.
You happen to know how many are Somali American?
Governor Walz. I do not. We do not investigate or prosecute
people based on ethnicity, religion.
Mr. Jordon. Neither do I. We should not do that, but Mr.
Magan is a Somali American who just said that one of the
concerns was this is a core voting bloc, and I just want to
know if you know how many of the 98 people who have been
indicted in your state are Somali.
Governor Walz. I do not. Their ethnicity is not my concern.
Mr. Jordon. Eighty-five. Eighty-five percent of the people
indicted were Somali American, a key voting bloc, and I think
that is what drove this whole thing. With that, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Before I
recognize the Ranking Member, it is my understanding, Mr.
Biggs, you seek recognition.
Mr. Biggs. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have some UCs. Here you go:
``Biden Clemency for Convicted Fraudsters Met With Outrage.''
Next one: ``Biden's Clemency and Partner List Includes Former
Elected Officials.'' Next one: ``The Drug Dealers, Thieves, and
Gang Leaders Granted Clemency By Joe Biden.'' Next one, ``North
Dakota Judge Blasts Biden for Setting Fraudsters Free.'' Next
one, ``Victims Shocked After Biden Grants Clemency to Kids for
Cash.'' Next one, ``Who Has Joe Biden Pardoned?''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ranking Member Garcia from
California.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank,
of course, our witnesses again for being here.
Now, of course, over the past two months, countless brave
Minnesotans have shared their stories of heartbreak and
violence and terror, not just with us on this Committee, but
with folks across the country. Peaceful protestors have been
shot in the streets. Children have been snatched from their
schools, people dragged from their cars and tackled at work.
And we know that parents, of course, have been missing work,
and children have been missing school.
Now, Reverend Tollgaard, I want the country to really
understand the effects on kids. Are you seeing families who
cannot go to work, who cannot go grocery shopping, and who
cannot take their kids to school or the library or the park
because they are terrified to leave their home? Are you seeing
that?
Reverend Tollgaard. Yes, that is what we are seeing in
Minnesota.
Mr. Garcia. And this includes, of course, U.S. citizens,
right? We are talking about also families, U.S. citizen
families, and kids who are United States citizens. Is that
correct?
Reverend Tollgaard. Yes, people who are U.S. citizens and
legal residents.
Mr. Garcia. Well, thank you. I want to just show this image
here.
[Poster]
This is an image of some kids, including, by the way, one
of Liam Ramos' classmates. These are kids that are being held
at U.S. detention centers and detention facilities. Now,
Reverend Tollgaard, when children hear about thousands of kids
being detained, reportedly almost 4,000, that must be
terrifying. Is that correct?
Reverend Tollgaard. That is absolutely terrifying for
children to hear these stories and to fear for that experience.
Mr. Garcia. And would you say that kids are scared at their
school?
Reverend Tollgaard. Kids are scared at their schools, at
home.
Mr. Garcia. Parents are scared of what is going to happen
to their children. Would you say that is correct also?
Reverend Tollgaard. That is correct.
Mr. Garcia. Well, thank you. Now, we are discussing the
violence and brutality that has happened, and I want to show
another image. It is kind of difficult, I think, to see, but I
think it is important for the American public to continue to
see it.
[Poster]
Now, this is the driver's seat of Renee Good's car seat
after an ICE agent shot her dead. Now, Reverend Tollgaard, are
families in your community afraid that this sort of horrific
image could happen to them next?
Reverend Tollgaard. Yes.
Mr. Garcia. Are kids scared that this type of horrific
image could happen to one of their parents?
Reverend Tollgaard. Kids like my own, kids like the kids in
my church, are afraid that that could happen to their parents
when they speak out.
Mr. Garcia. And let us remember that an ICE agent
specifically told a protestor, ``Have y'all not learned from
the past couple of days?'' This is just two days after Renee
Good was shot. That is being told to people on the ground in
Minneapolis and across the country, across Minnesota, and it is
not acceptable. We should be clear here. This violence does not
make us safer. It does not address fraud, waste, and abuse. It
does not help families with healthcare, does not grow or build
small businesses, and it is certainly, as we are continuing to
discuss, is not preventing the kind of fraud that Republicans
are discussing here today.
Now, Governor, can you walk us through specifically how
Operation Metro Surge affected Minnesota's ability to
investigate actual fraud?
Governor Walz. Well, thank you, Congressman. Well, first of
all, as I have said, we have been partners with our Federal
partners, whether that be the FBI or be the U.S. Attorney's
Office, which I will note was one of the premier U.S.
Attorney's office, regardless of who they were appointed by.
Right now, those lead investigators and basically that whole
team has left that office. They have not been filled back in.
The U.S. Attorney, himself, was in front of a Federal judge
yesterday on contempt issues of that office not working
together.
Now, look, we are going to prosecute, as we have, every
single person that is involved in fraud, but we cannot do it
alone. The Attorney General's office is doing everything they
can. He has consistently come and asked the legislature for
more money, more of the investigators he needs, but right now
is the backlog at the U.S. Attorney's office is being
challenged by the Federal courts. It makes it more difficult
for us to get those cases over to them. But the good news is
the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is continuing to
do those. We got a conviction this week. Those are things that
will continue on.
And while we need to put in all the safeguards, we need to,
as you heard the Attorney General's opening statement, if we
partner together in this, our chance of defeating this fraud is
that much higher, but right now, it is stymied. There are no
investigators over there, there are no U.S. attorneys, the FBI
has been decimated, and it is very difficult.
Mr. Garcia. And that right there, the American public needs
to hear. I mean, it is completely outrageous what has happened
to those that are actually trying to take on fraud in Minnesota
and across the country. Those offices have been decimated, and
there is no support. Not acceptable. And, Governor, finally,
there appears to be actually no evidence that ICE and DHS reign
of terror in Minnesota that continues has actually prevented
any fraud. Is that your assessment, sir?
Governor Walz. That is correct. What you saw on the streets
did not do anything to it, and we have actively asked, if you
have folks who can help us, if you have folks who are good at
the forensics, if they can help us do this, we want you there.
As we have for the last seven years that I have been Governor,
we partnered together and convicted people.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, and with that, I also, just for the
record, want to introduce our report as well. Today, the
Democratic staff released it as well as it relates to this
hearing and Operation Metro Surge. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes our Majority Whip, Representative
Emmer from Minnesota.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you, Chairman Comer, and actually, thank
you, Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, for appearing
before the Committee today.
Gentlemen, let us see if we can agree on at least one thing
today. Today's hearing is titled, ``Oversight of Fraud and
Misuse of Federal Funds in Minnesota.'' Can we agree that this
fraud is a serious thing, Governor Walz? Yes or no. Can we
agree on that?
Governor Walz. Yes, any fraud is serious.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you, because it is interesting that you
and I agree that it is a serious thing considering the man
sitting next to you, your Attorney General, Keith Ellison, just
two months ago said, ``This is a political matter. This is not
a serious thing.'' Attorney General Ellison, is there an
organized crime ring operating in Minnesota? I will answer for
you, sir. Governor Walz believes there is an active crime ring
in our state. In October, the Governor said, ``We have got an
organized crime ring in Minnesota. I think it has been going on
for years.''
Moving on, Mr. Ellison, I, along with millions of
Americans, have grave concerns over your alleged relationships
with Somali fraudsters who have since been charged and
convicted of Federal crimes. I am sure you are aware that over
90 percent of the defendants charged in the Feeding Our Future
fraud case are of Somali descent. In fact, you have personal
knowledge of these people. There is a 54-minute audiotape of
your meeting with these criminals in December 2021, and during
your meeting, they complained to you about increased scrutiny
of their nonprofits and you told them, ``Of course I am here to
help.'' It is on the internet. Anyone can listen to you say
that. Since then, you claim you were not aware of their crimes
in the $250 million Feeding Our Future scheme, the largest
pandemic fraud case in the Nation, but just weeks after your
December 2021 meeting, the FBI executed search warrants that
you never would have requested in the Feeding Our Future fraud
investigation.
Now, let us fast forward to September 2022. Ten months
after you met with the Somali fraudsters, your office issued a
press release stating, ``Minnesota Attorney General Keith
Ellison and his office have been deeply involved for two years
in holding Feeding Our Future accountable.'' So, according to
your office, sir, you have been deeply involved in the Feeding
Our Future case since September 2020. That actually sounds like
you are saying that at the time of your infamous meeting with
the Somali fraudsters, you were already aware of the
allegations of fraud. When you had this meeting in December
2021, did you know, sir, about the long-running FBI
investigation into Feeding Our Future? Yes or no.
Mr. Ellison. Mr. Chairman, Representative Emmer----
Mr. Emmer. Reclaiming my time. When did you personally
become aware of the FBI investigation? That is all I am asking.
Mr. Ellison. Representative Emmer, as you know, I have
addressed this issue many times. I have----
Mr. Emmer. All right. Reclaiming my time. In that same
meeting with the fraudsters, Mr. Attorney General, you took aim
at the Minnesota Department of Education. You stated that the
Minnesota Department of Education had fought the nonprofit in
very disgusting ways, in a very racist, xenophobic, and
Islamophobic manner. You actually asked for the names of all
these folks who are just hung up and offered to call the
Minnesota Department of Education to ``demand some
explanations.'' We now know that when you made these comments,
the Biden DOJ was working with the Minnesota Department of
Education and that their work exposed the massive fraud ring.
Pretty bad look for you, sir. Either you were oblivious to what
was going on under your nose, or worse, you were trying to
obstruct the work of the Minnesota Department of Education. So,
I can see the time is getting short.
Mr. Chairman, we are left with two questions. One, what did
Governor Walz and Keith Ellison know about the fraud, and two,
when did they actually know it? I would suggest that if they do
not give direct and truthful answers to both these questions at
this hearing, then they both need to be put under oath in a
deposition. This is a serious thing, Mr. Attorney General. You
are the only one who thinks protecting taxpayer dollars is
political. Mr. Ellison, my concern is that you actively
obstructed this investigation in exchange for campaign
donations, a quid pro quo. If these concerns are proven to be
true, you should be disbarred, and you should go to jail. I
yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Ms. Norton from Washington, D.C.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is critical that
the Federal Government support people who need assistance with
food, housing, and healthcare. Unfortunately, as long as the
government provides these services, there will be bad actors
trying to take advantage of them. We need to prevent and
identify these fraudsters so that social services can reach
those who need them. However, we cannot recklessly deny help to
many people who need services because of a few bad actors.
My Republican colleagues have now held two hearings to talk
about fraud in one single state, but they have completely
ignored the fact that the Trump Administration is the most
corrupt Administration in history. If Republicans really cared
about fraud abuse and holding criminals accountable, they would
call them out: Donald Trump, for firing 17 Inspectors General.
These internal watchdogs are the front line of rooting out
waste, fraud, and abuse of Federal agencies. The Trump
Administration has also retaliated against whistleblowers and
allowed Administration officials to engage in serious conflicts
of interest that often cross the line into outright corruption.
We need inspectors general, whistleblower protections, and
rules prohibiting conflicts of interest to protect Federal
programs and make sure that people can get the services they
need.
Across the country, Americans are struggling to afford
their healthcare premiums and groceries. The Trump
Administration should be strengthening the social safety net,
not cutting the safeguards that catch the fraudsters taking
advantage of it, and I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. I will now
recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, my questions
are going to be simple and direct. Governor Walz, you were
inaugurated as Governor on January 17, 2019, and have served in
that role through two terms ever since, correct?
Governor Walz. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. During the time period 2019 and 2020, while
you were serving as Governor, isn't it true that state auditors
and officials raised concerns about fraud and vulnerabilities
and programs overseen by your Administration?
Governor Walz. I cannot confirm that, but I am assuming we
have always ongoing Office of the Legislative Auditor (OLA).
Chairman Comer. I will take that as a yes. Those warnings
were communicated to senior officials in your Administration,
including yourself, correct?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak if it was directly.
Chairman Comer. I think the correct answer to that would
also be yes. Despite those warnings, you did not order a broad
stop payment or suspension of payment in any program at that
time, correct?
Governor Walz. We are not going to stop payments that feed
children until we have the proof that things happened. In 2019,
we did start taking action. I went to the legislature that
legislates.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Okay. Governor Walz, when fraud
concerns were raised early in your tenure in the Childcare
Assistance Program, did your Administration stop payments at
that time?
Governor Walz. The Childcare Assistance Program in the----
Chairman Comer. The answer is no. When fraud concerns were
raised----
Governor Walz. Would you like me to answer or not,
Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Well, it is yes or no.
Governor Walz. I am trying to. I want you to help----
Chairman Comer. You have already answered the question. You
said you did not ever stop payments, and that is what the
problem is, and that is what the Democrats are complaining
about, ``Oh my gosh, Trump stopped payments.'' Well, my god,
you lost billions to fraud in Minnesota. That is what this
hearing is about.
Governor Walz. But, Mr. Chairman, that----
Chairman Comer. You did not stop payments because you did
not want to rock the boat, and when fraud concerns were
raised----
Governor Walz. That is not correct, Chairman.
Chairman Comer. When fraud concerns were raised in
Medicaid, Home and Community-Based Services, did your
Administration stop payments? No, you did not. When fraud
concerns were raised in non-emergency medical transportation,
did your Administration stop payments?
Governor Walz. Chairman, if I could mention what a stop
payment meant by what the Administration did last week is
400,000 children without healthcare. Are you stopping payment
at one person?
Chairman Comer. We believe that is your fault and the
Attorney General's fault because you do nothing about fraud,
even though everyone in America sees with their own eyes the
fraud.
Governor Walz. Our Medicare error rate is lower than your
states.
Chairman Comer. You have been defrauded. You have not been
good stewards of the taxpayer dollars, and the Democrat
position is, well, keep the money flowing. The American
taxpayers have had enough. They have had enough.
Governor Walz. I think that that is an unfair
characterization.
Chairman Comer. They want their taxpayer dollars spent
wisely. We all support social programs to the vulnerable.
Governor Walz. That is not a fair characterization.
Chairman Comer. But if you are going to waste the money to
fraudsters, then we have to stop and recalculate.
Governor Walz. We are not. We are putting them in jail when
we can, Chairman, and some of these programs are crafted in
such a way that there is a procedure to follow. And I am with
you: one dollar is too much. I do not think there is a lot of
difference here if you want to help us get at this. The
question is, is it a sledgehammer, or is it a scalpel? I
understand. There is no political upside to it.
Chairman Comer. Let us get into what we have talked--you
eventually did pause payments in certain programs, but that was
not until late 2025 after the Federal Government stepped in. Is
that correct?
Governor Walz. I do not think that is a fair
characterization of stepped in. We have been partners in this
and working on them, but----
Chairman Comer. All right. Let us move on, and that
decision occurred only after large-scale fraud had already
taken place for years. Now, Governor Walz, employees inside
state agencies raised concerns about fraud and improper
payments for years. Is that correct?
Governor Walz. Inside agencies? We have been prosecuting
them for years, yes.
Chairman Comer. They have raised concern. Agencies have
raised concern about fraud in Minnesota, correct?
Governor Walz. Which of those----
Chairman Comer. For years.
Governor Walz. Yes, when they do, and they are prosecuted,
yes.
Chairman Comer. Some of those employees faced retaliation
after raising those concerns. Is that correct?
Governor Walz. That is not correct, Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Governor Walz. Minnesota has strong whistleblower
protections.
Chairman Comer. Attorney General Ellison, you are the chief
legal officer of the State of Minnesota, correct?
Mr. Ellison. Yes.
Chairman Comer. Your office advises agencies on compliance
with Federal and state law, correct?
Mr. Ellison. Yes.
Chairman Comer. Retaliation against whistleblowers
reporting fraud is unlawful, correct?
Mr. Ellison. That is right.
Chairman Comer. At any point during your tenure, did you
tell state agencies to stop payments due to credible fraud
allegations? Yes or no.
Mr. Ellison. Sir, we prosecuted over 300 people in the
Medicaid fraud area.
Chairman Comer. Three hundred, I would----
Mr. Ellison. We convicted them. We----
The Chairman [continuing]. Predict is a drop in the bucket,
but you have never said to stop payments. That is----
Mr. Ellison. It is one of the highest rates in the country,
sir.
Chairman Comer. Well, you have one of the highest fraud
rates in the country in Minnesota.
Mr. Ellison. That is not true, and my office does not have
the authority to do a stop payment.
Chairman Comer. All right.
Mr. Ellison. We prosecute criminals when they are presented
to us by the agency.
Chairman Comer. So, the answer is no, unfortunately. No one
has ever from your office said to stop payments until we can
get the fraud under control. So, to summarize, you both knew
about fraud risk, and payments continued. Our investigation has
shown that whistleblowers were alerted about the widespread
fraud, were ignored, sidelined, and even retaliated against.
Only after Federal authorities ultimately stepped in, did you
take any action. It is not this Committee's responsibility to
decide guilt or dole out punishment, but it is clear there was
a massive failure of oversight and, quite frankly, a failure of
leadership. One wonders whether either of you should bear some
personal responsibility for the billions of dollars siphoned
off by fraudsters under your noses in the state that you led.
Again, this is not for the Committee to decide, but based on
your answers today and apparent failure to take any
responsibility, still the answer to that question has become
abundantly clear. And now, I recognize----
Ms. Randall. Mr. Chair, I seek unanimous consent to enter
items into the record.
Chairman Comer. All right. Before I recognize Mr. Lynch,
Ms. Randall, you have a UC?
Ms. Randall. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter
into the record a November 12, 2025, article from ProPublica
entitled, ``How Trump Has Exploited Pardons and Clemency to
Reward Allies and Supporters,'' which shows President Trump
rewards those in his good graces. I also seek recognition to
insert into the record a Washington Post article from December
19, 2025, entitled, ``Trump's Pardons Wipe Out Payments to
Defrauded Victims,'' which shows that President Trump lets
criminals and fraudsters walk free.
Chairman Comer. Okay. With that----
Ms. Randall. And I also seek unanimous consent to enter
into the record an article from May 29, 2025, from ABC News,
titled, ``Trump's Flurry of Pardons Include Some Campaign
Contributors.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
And, Ms. Pressley, we will do one at a time. We will go to
Mr. Lynch, then I will recognize you.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see
you, my friend. Attorney General Ellison, good to see you
again. Reverend, thank you for your willingness to testify
before the Committee.
I want to shift gears here a minute, and I want to focus on
ICE. So, I was recently asked to serve as the co-chair of the
FIFA 2026 soccer tournament. It is a global tournament, the
largest sporting event in the world, and my home city of Boston
has been asked to host a lot of the games. In Boston, we will
host teams from Morocco, Ghana, Bolivia, Iraq, Scotland,
France, England, and Suriname. We will also host over three
million foreign national visitors who are coming into Boston
for these tournaments, and we recently learned from the Trump
Administration that ICE will play a key role in the security
operations during those games. So, we have got all these people
flying in, foreign nationals, a lot of different countries,
South America and elsewhere.
Governor, since you have had direct and relevant experience
on dealing with the Metro Surge and the security operations of
ICE, I was interested in getting your thoughts and your
observations and any recommendations you might have to help us
with confronting our experience or what we expect to see during
these games with ICE coming in, as well as so many foreign
visitors.
Governor Walz. Well, as I think the world saw, and do not
take my word for it, take professional law enforcement across
Minnesota and across the country, the most unprofessional,
aggressive force that I think you could imagine. And I was here
in front of this Committee and answered all your questions on
June 12, and I warned this Committee what a masked group of
folks turned loose in an American city could do, and if I am
not mistaken, I said someone could get killed doing this. And I
just want to be very clear about this. When Tom Homan had to
come in to clean up the mess of Secretary Noem and Greg Bovino,
Secretary [sic] Homan himself acknowledged Minnesota follows
the law, exactly as I told you in this Committee.
So, my advice to you, Mr. Lynch, is to get very public
upfront commitments from these folks. While I disagree with Mr.
Homan's views on many things, he is at least professional
enough that he pulled the leash back and pulled these folks out
of Minnesota after, again, misrepresenting the number of people
they were detaining, misrepresenting before he got there
exactly what Minnesota did, and I am just going to name it on
accountability. The Secretary of DHS being chastised by
Republican Senators added insult to injury to Minnesota,
pouring salt in the wounds of the parents of Alex Pretti and
Renee Good's family by not even apologizing or acknowledging.
And if you want accountability, for one of the times, as far as
I know, the attorneys know better, we not being included in the
investigation. And the actions that were taken of a gentleman
who was shot in the leg was the night that Kristi Noem called
me a domestic terrorist and said that this gentleman was
attacking Federal agents. Well, now we know the story. They
lied. They are now under investigation, ``they'' being the
Federal agents.
So, look, I am with you. I want your help on fraud. Why
would I not want money to go to the programs I care deeply
about--feeding people, clothing people, housing people? But
what ICE did disrupted everything that we were doing, it
disrupted our Federal partners, and it forced our law
enforcement agencies, who have worked hard to gain the public
trust, to have the public believe in them. So, my advice to you
is, and especially when the world is coming to see this, let
Boston's finest lead, let the people of Massachusetts lead, let
the Tenth Amendment stand for something, and allow us to be
able to do this. The people of Minnesota will hold us
accountable if they do not feel we are doing a good enough job,
but to demonize and retribution against a state, in the words
of the President, in the words of the Vice President, have done
nothing.
So, Mr. Lynch, the world should be looking forward to
coming, but I would get it upfront, and I would make sure that
Boston's Police Department are in the lead.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you. Attorney General Ellison, we need
coordination between law enforcement agencies. This is a big
job. What are your views on that likelihood of cooperation from
ICE?
Mr. Ellison. Well, I hope you get the cooperation that you
need. In Minnesota, we do not have a good record of
cooperation, which is interesting because so many times in the
past, we have had great cooperation between local Federal
enforcers and local state ones, and we have just worked
seamlessly. Nowadays, that has all changed, and that is quite
unfortunate.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you
for the courtesy.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Ms. Pressley?
Ms. Pressley. Thank you. I asked unanimous consent to enter
to the record a February 2026 letter from 200 state lawmakers
urging Congress to exercise its oversight authority and demand
the Administration immediately restore full childcare funding
that it had frozen for five states.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, it is ordered.
The Chair recognizes Dr. Foxx from North Carolina.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our
witnesses for being here.
Governor, you have reminded people that you were here last
June. At that time, I reminded you that the Feeding Our Future
scam made Minnesota ground zero for the largest COVID-19 fraud
scheme in the Nation. $250 million of Federal taxpayer funds
were taken out of the mouths of hungry children, and as the FBI
noted, they were ``funneled into luxury homes, cars, and lavish
lifestyles while families struggled.'' You assured me then that
you wholeheartedly supported the Federal Government's effort to
bring those responsible to justice. I appreciate your
sentiment, but a person's actions matter more than their words.
Governor Walz, when did you first become aware of the fraud in
Feeding Our Future? A specific date, please.
Governor Walz. Well, Congresswoman, it is good to see you,
and having served in your job for 12 years, I can tell you my
job is a little different as Governor for seven years. I take a
lot of meetings. I certainly would not specifically state, but
I think during that pandemic, I think by late 2020, we started
to see the irregularities. They were flagged, and I will note
that we cooperated.
Ms. Foxx. Right, but the state officials were aware of the
fraud in early 2020.
Governor Walz. So, you are asking when I, in my office, the
Governor became aware.
Ms. Foxx. Yes.
Governor Walz. And I do not have a specific date.
Ms. Foxx. Okay.
Governor Walz. But what I would say is we provided
witnesses' documents to the U.S. Attorney and the FBI, and 79
of those people have been prosecuted going back to 2022.
Ms. Foxx. Okay. Well, when I was Chair of the Committee on
Education and Workforce, I issued you a subpoena in September
2024 because you and your Administration were not forthcoming
about how your Administration ``failed to identify what has
been described as the largest pandemic fraud in the Nation.''
In September 2024, you were aware of the Feeding Our Future
fraud and your Administration's handling of it, correct? Yes or
no.
Governor Walz. 2024? Yes, by that time, we had already put
people in jail and had extensively investigated it.
Ms. Foxx. This Committee has testimony that the Minnesota
Department of Education briefed your office about the Feeding
Our Future draft lawsuit and litigation hold on April 28, 2020.
Let me jog your memory. Is that correct?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak specifically to that, and if
it is my----
Ms. Foxx. Okay. It was April 2020. That means Feeding Our
Future received a total of over $200 million in Federal funds
after you and your Administration knew about the fraud
concerns. Why didn't you stop sending money to Feeding Our
Future as soon as the fraud concerns were raised?
Governor Walz. Congresswoman, as following the program. We
notified the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) under the
Trump Administration's first term. We had notified them, too,
because it is a program administered out of USDA, and they were
working to work through the process. Eventually----
Ms. Foxx. Didn't you say you were fearful of political
retaliation from the FOF founder?
Governor Walz. No, I never said any such thing. I never
said any such thing.
Ms. Foxx. Well, that is what we understood, you were afraid
of political retaliation. So, given the size and scope of the
Feeding Our Future fraud, I think you and your Administration
would have been on high alert looking for additional fraud in
the state. But after seeing the handling of Feeding Our Future
and its $250 million in fraud, it came as no surprise to learn
that even more staggering amounts of fraud, estimated at up to
$9 billion, were uncovered in the Childcare Assistance Program,
the Minnesota Medicaid program, and other programs. How could
you allow such massive fraud schemes in your state to get to
this point?
Governor Walz. Congresswoman, we do not see anything by $9
million. Local press and everyone reports it about $300
million. But as I have said, if it is one dollar, it is too
much, but we started in 2019 putting anti-fraud programs
forward. After Feeding Our Future, we started going through and
making sure every program had the integrity in it that it
needed, and that is why you see convictions. That is why you
see these programs going forward.
Ms. Foxx. But why did it take did it take nearly seven
years for you to get engaged to stop the fraud? Seven years.
Governor Walz. We started in 2019, Congresswoman. It may be
a surprise. If you arrest someone for stealing a car, other
people are still going to try and steal cars. What we have
tried to do is bring program integrity, but I will go back to
this. We are not going to shut down programs that have things
that are going well in it, and we need to find that proper
balance, and I have acknowledged that every year, we are
putting things in place, and Inspectors General----
Ms. Foxx. Governor Walz, Governor Walz, you did not do your
job. You did not do your job. You did not protect taxpayer
dollars. You allowed massive fraud. You and Mr. Ellison allowed
massive fraud to go on in the State of Minnesota, and it is
unfortunate, as somebody said, that you cannot be held
personally responsible at this stage of the game. I yield back,
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Krishnamoorthi from Illinois.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Governor Walz,
you have seen firsthand the brutal excessive force used by ICE
and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agents in Minnesota.
Unfortunately, we saw the same tactics employed in Chicago
during Operation Midway Blitz. I want to turn now to ICE and
CBP's horrific pattern of abuse.
Secretary Noem went to our cities ostensibly under the
guise of arresting ``the worst of the worst,'' but in Illinois,
less than 3 percent of those arrested during Operation Midway
Blitz had criminal histories. In Minnesota, the vast majority
of those detained had never been in trouble with the law,
correct?
Governor Walz. I believe that is correct, Congressman.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. There were also more than 170 cases
this year where ICE and CBP detained U.S. citizens. U.S.
citizens should never be detained by ICE, correct?
Governor Walz. That is correct.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. According to----
Governor Walz. I would hope we all could agree on that.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Well, I hope so, too.
[Poster]
According to the Chicago Sun Times, Federal agents have
pepper sprayed children, including this 1-year-old baby in
Chicago, and children should never be pepper sprayed, right?
Governor Walz. I would hope we could all agree on that,
too. They should not.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. And according to the Independent, CBP
agents dragged a 67-year-old U.S. citizen out of his car,
breaking his ribs and causing internal bleeding. No person
should be subjected to that kind of treatment, right?
Governor Walz. They should not, Congressman.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Attorney General Ellison, let me turn
to another topic. In President Trump's second term, ICE has
become America's highest-funded Federal law enforcement agency
with a budget of more than $85 billion. If ICE were an army,
this budget would make it the 13th largest army in the world.
Let us look at where that money has gone. Last year, DHS spent
$172 million on two private luxury jets for Secretary Noem. I
assume you are not aware of a stop payment on that particular
payment, right?
Mr. Ellison. No, I am not, sir.
[Poster]
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Republican Senator John Kennedy
yesterday grilled Secretary Noem about a $220 million ad
campaign featuring her prominently, including on this horse in
front of Mount Rushmore. Secretary Kennedy suggested this was
wasteful spending, and I agree. I assume you would agree with
that as well, right?
Mr. Ellison. I do.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. This gross misuse of funds must end
now, and Secretary Noem must be held accountable. Not tomorrow,
not next week, now.
Chicago was ground zero for Secretary Noem's overreach when
she launched Operation Midway Blitz. Chicago media reported
that ICE and CBP agents had pepper sprayed a 1-year-old baby,
shot at a pastor, harassed seniors, tased U.S. citizens, and
even killed a person. It is clear that Midway Blitz was never
intended to make Chicago safer. In December, ICE and CBP began
Operation Metro Surge in Minnesota. Over 3,000 agents were sent
to one state. There were military-style raids at childcare
centers, children kept home from school, adults postponing
medical care. In Minneapolis, Renee Good and Alex Pretti, both
U.S. citizens were fatally shot by Federal officers. It is
clear that Operation Metro Surge was never intended to make
Minnesota safer.
But this is not isolated to just Illinois and Minnesota.
Inside detention centers across the country, the suffering
continues. Detainees report physical and sexual abuse, medical
neglect, and pressure to self-deport. On top of that brutality,
Kristi Noem is misusing funds to buy herself private jets and
enrich her associates. Kristi Noem is testifying in the House
Judiciary Committee today, but she must come before this
Committee to explain the rampant corruption and waste within
her Agency. DHS is out of control. There is no congressional
oversight. I was denied entrance to ICE facilities twice in
Illinois. There is no accountability. Secretary Noem has still
not appeared before this Committee, nor has she responded in a
substantive manner to more than one dozen letters I have sent
her. There are no consequences.
Noem is still the leader of DHS despite regularly breaking
the law and abusing her authority. Secretary Noem must answer
for her wrongdoing, for Jaime, my State of the Union guest, who
raises his little sister after his father was coerced into
self-deportation; for Chicago and Marimar Martinez who was shot
five times; for my constituent, Evelyn, an 18-year-old U.S.
citizen who was wrongfully detained by ICE; for Renee Good,
Alex Pretti, and Silverio Villegas-Gonzalez, and all the other
victims of ICE and CBP, for the American people. It is for all
those reasons that, Mr. Chairman, pursuant to Clause II(k)(6)
House Rule XI, I move to subpoena Kristi Noem to testify before
the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. This is
for every family impacted by Kristi Noem's terror campaign.
They demand answers, and so do I.
Chairman Comer. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing.
The Committee will now proceed with today's hearing, and I want
to remind everyone, I believe Kristi Noem is testifying in
front of the Homeland Security Committee in the House today
after testifying in the Senate yesterday.
Before I recognize Mr. Cloud, I believe Mr. Higgins has a
UC?
Mr. Higgins. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to
enter into the record an interview from December 2024, The
Minnesota Star Tribune with Governor Walz noting the Federal
investigation into the Early Intensive Developmental and
Behavioral Intervention Program, the EIDBI Program, serving
autism patients, since its first year of inception in 2017,
growing from $1.7 million per year to over $400 million per
year. Unanimous consent, sir.
Chairman Comer. Without objection so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Cloud from Texas.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for holding this
hearing. This hearing was designed to be a hearing looking into
the massive expansion of some of the social programs and the
fraud that was contained therein, but, Reverend Tollgaard, I
was struck by part of your opening statement because you
invoked Matthew 25, and that is a scripture we see tossed
around a lot up here, but often without context. And so, I went
and got my Bible and thought we would dig into Matthew 25 for a
minute. The scripture you invoked was Matthew 25: 35-40. It
ends with this. It says, ``Then the righteous will answer to
Him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry, feed you, or thirsty
and give you something to drink, and when did we see you as
stranger and invite you in or naked and clothe you? When did we
see you sick or in prison and come to you?' And the King will
answer to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did
to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you
did this to Me.' '' I would ask you, who is the ``you'' in that
passage?
Reverend Tollgaard. Thank you for your question. ``You,''
meaning all of us, the followers of Christ.
Mr. Cloud. The followers of Christ, right. In Matthew 24:3,
it says, ``After Jesus was sitting on the Mountain of Olives
and the disciples came to him privately, and then they asked
him,'' and that began this whole chapter. Now, what Christ did
not say was to lobby your government. He said if you have, you
give. That is the general biblical principle here. You know, II
Corinthians chapter nine gives us probably the best scriptural
understanding of what charity is. It says, ``Each of you should
give which you have decided in your heart to give, not
reluctantly under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.''
Would you say that taxes are under compulsion?
Reverend Tollgaard. Taxes are not my area of expertise, but
I----
Mr. Cloud. But are they given under compulsion? Do you pay
your taxes?
Reverend Tollgaard. As a U.S. citizen, I pay my taxes, as
we all do.
Mr. Cloud. Yes, because what happens if you do not?
Reverend Tollgaard. We do not have the services that we
need to support our----
Mr. Cloud. What happens to you personally if you do not pay
your taxes?
Reverend Tollgaard. You get in trouble.
Mr. Cloud. You get in trouble, and I would say that is
under compulsion. So, if we are talking about what charity is--
I am always amazed in D.C. how much of we get to define our
personal worth as a politician or statesman, or whatever you
want to call us, by how much of other people's money we give
away. And so, there is certainly a place for a social safety
net potentially, but the idea that Matthew 25 is kind of used
as a blanket statement, as a matter of fact, the parable that
He gives right before that scripture that you go into is the
parable of the talents, where you see a business owner go away,
and he leaves three employees in charge and gives them each a
bit of investment. And two of them turn their investment into a
profit, and one that turns it not into a profit, does nothing
with it, just sits on it, what does he call him?
[No response.]
Mr. Cloud. You are a pastor, right?
Reverend Tollgaard. Yes, I am, sir. I do not have that
Scripture----
Mr. Cloud. He calls him a wicked and a lazy servant.
Reverend Tollgaard. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Cloud. And so, you know, scripturally speaking, God
expects us to do something with what He has given us. Now,
Romans 13 talks about the purpose of government. You know,
Scripture is replete with there are different institutions, and
each have a different thing, the primary job of raising our
kids and taking care of our families and the institution of the
family. The government has a different one. It says, ``For the
one in the authority is God's servant for your good, but if you
do wrong, be afraid for the rulers do not bear the sword for no
reason. They are God's servants serving as agents of wrath on
the wrongdoer.'' Would you say that someone who commits fraud
is doing wrong?
Reverend Tollgaard. We all are against fraud.
Mr. Cloud. Right. Is fraud theft? Would you agree that that
is theft?
Reverend Tollgaard. Yes.
Mr. Cloud. As the Eighth Commandment says, ``Thou shall not
steal.'' Would you recommend that someone in your church go
into debt to give an offering in your church?
Reverend Tollgaard. No.
Mr. Cloud. Okay. So, we have a massive program of fraud
that is being paid for by taxpayers, and it is not really us
paying. It is really our kids and our grandkids that are paying
it, and yet we continue to see this massive expansion, taken
out of context of what charity is being defined as. You know,
it is interesting. I find it odd that the left continues to
bring up Matthew 25 because at the very beginning of that,
right before He goes in that scripture that we talked with, it
says, Matthew 25:32, ``All the nations will be gathered to Him,
and He will separate the people from one another as sheep and
goats. He will put the sheep on His right and His goats on the
left, and the King will say to those on his right, `Come in,
you are blessed of the Father, take your inheritance to the
kingdom,' and those on His left, He will say, `Depart from me,
you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and
his angels,' '', you know.
So, I would caution those who begin to use Matthew 25 to do
so in the proper context, understanding that we have multiple
biblical institutions, and they each have a purpose.
Reverend Tollgaard. The context here is vast.
Mr. Cloud. And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit the
entirety of Matthew 25 into the record.
Chairman Comer. Without objection----
Ms. Randall. Mr. Chairman, I also have a unanimous consent
item.
Chairman Comer. Does anyone object to----
Ms. Randall. Thank you. It is a Huffington Post----
Chairman Comer. Whoa, whoa, I did not recognize yet, Ms.
Randall. Does anybody object to Mr. Cloud?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Now, I will recognize Ms. Randall.
Ms. Randall. Thank you, Mr. Comer. I would like to enter
into the record an article from the Huffington Post yesterday,
``Troops Being Told Trump's Been Anointed by Jesus to Cause
Armageddon in Iran.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Well, we will do one. Let us recognize Mr. Khanna, and then
I will get Mr. Walkinshaw. Mr. Khanna from California.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz, when I
went to Minneapolis and was at Alex Pretti's memorial, I was
struck by the people there. I expected a lot of folks who were
immigrants, and I expected folks who were children of
immigrants who looked brown like me, and there at the memorial
were fourth and fifth generation Minnesotans, most of them
white Americans talking about how they face tyranny, how when
they go to church, they were being followed by ICE agents, when
they would go to give a meal to an immigrant, they were being
followed by agents. And I just had so much hope for our
country, seeing them there, and I want to thank Minnesota as a
Californian, as someone grew up in Pennsylvania, as an
American, for their character, for their courage, for what they
have modeled in a multiracial democracy.
And my question for you, I mean, having served as a
Congressman, a Governor, what is it about Minnesota that we can
learn? What is it that leads to this kind of inclusive feeling
about immigrants and our Nation?
Governor Walz. Well, thank you, Congressman, and thanks for
your work on many fronts. Look, I think Reverend Tollgaard
summed it up in getting at the heart of this. It is about the
neighborliness and the care, and left to our own devices, I am
going to make the case, Minnesota, and the way, I would remind
folks, states have to balance their budgets. We are AAA bond
rated, one of the states that is ranked the highest. We have a
surplus, and we also have the highest rainy day funds, one of
the strongest protections. So, we understand fiscal
responsibility, but we also understand this caring, this
neighborliness. People saw their neighbor. I believe our
politics can change with that idea of what the next-door
neighbor looks like.
Now, I will have to tell you, Mr. Khanna, I was deeply
concerned last year when the Vice President of the United
States mentioned he can understand why people would not want to
live by somebody who is not like them, which seems to go
against our entire ethos in Minnesota, whether it was the first
wave of Norwegian and Swedish immigrants that came to
Minnesota, German immigrants like my family, or whether it was
Hmong coming after the Vietnam War, or Somali and other East
African immigrants to our country. And I think it is this sense
of working together.
There is a reason that we rank at the top in healthcare, we
rank at the top in personal incomes, we rank near the top in
home ownership, we rank near the top in happiness because this
idea that we are all in it together and that we believe
everybody should have a chance. So, I think it is an ethos and
it gets into our politics on the secular side.
I believe as an elected official that I should not give a
sermon, but I should attempt to live one. And one of our
politicians, Paul Wellstone, talked about we all do better when
we all do better, and that is what we do. And I know that is
true to a certain degree in other states, but I see folks
making the claim that, well, you would not have any fraud if
you just cut all these programs, if you just zeroed them out.
That is true. If we did not provide food for our children, no
one would steal from that program, but there would also be a
lot of hungry children. And what I am asking for and
acknowledging the accountability, we need to put program
integrity in. So, I think it is a neighborliness, I think it is
a historical point about caring for your own, and I think it is
a clear understanding that if your neighbor does better, you
are going to do better.
Mr. Khanna. Well, thank you, Governor, and obviously fraud
matters and budgets matter, but what really matters right now
in this country are values, and I really appreciate your
sharing that.
Attorney General Ellison, in the brief time I have, you
know, I just want to be clear about Somali Americas because
when I was growing up as an Indian American, anytime someone
who was of Indian origin did something wrong, every Indian
American was concerned, you know? And I do not think people
understand that if you are not a minority, how that makes you
feel. I understand there were 80 or 90 people who were Somali
Americans who were involved in this, but there are a hundred
thousand Somali Americans, at least in Minnesota. And
statistically, from all the studies I have seen, it is just
factually untrue that Somali Minnesotans or Somali Americans
commit more fraud than white Americans or Indian Americans or
other Americans, and could you just speak to this because it is
so dangerous. And I do not even think on the other side, people
are doing that on purpose, but if you are not an immigrant, if
you have not lived that or are a child of immigrants, you do
not know what that makes you feel. And can you talk about the
Somali experience in Minnesota?
Mr. Ellison. You know, the reality is the Somali community
in Minnesota has brought great things to our state. They have
opened businesses. They have gotten professional degrees. They
are great neighbors who volunteer and help their neighbors.
They have been a benefit to our state. If you pick out a few
people who have done wrong, sure, you can do that, but I can
guarantee you, you can do that in any ethnic group at all in
the State of Minnesota or anywhere in America.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you. Thank you both.
Chairman Comer. All right. Before I recognize Mr. Higgins,
I will recognize Mr. Walkinshaw for a unanimous consent.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, first, I just
wanted to make a quick correction. You said Secretary Noem is
before the Homeland Security Committee today. That is not true.
I am a Member of the Committee. She was with us a couple months
ago, but she is not scheduled.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Mr. Walkinshaw. With that, I ask unanimous consent to enter
into the record of September 22, 2025, article from Reuters
titled, ``Trump Aid, Homan, Accepted $50,000 in Bribery Sting
Operation,'' which shows the Trump Administration is willing to
cover up blatant corruption of its officials.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Higgins from Louisiana.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, ma'am,
thank you for being here today. Governor, when you took office,
this fraud had already begun. Is that an accurate assessment?
Governor Walz. That is accurate, Mr. Higgins.
Mr. Higgins. Yes, sir. So, what we are trying to get our
heads wrapped around here as a Nation, and we are doing our
best as a Committee, I am quite certain, on both sides, to just
sort of focus our attention on what needs to be focused on. You
had massive fraud in the State of Minnesota, and when we
started looking into waste, fraud, abuse, and theft across the
country, Minnesota surfaced as a wow moment for the entire
country. So, naturally, you know, we look, as a citizenry, to,
well, who is in charge there, and my old friend, Governor Walz
is in charge, and the truth is, is fraud had begun before you
took office.
So, it is a reasonable question, Governor. You are noted in
many interviews--I am not going to go through them ad nauseum--
you were aware of this level of fraud and investigations, and
yet, it seems like nothing was done until the Trump
Administration reestablished itself in a second term and we
began broad investigations into waste, fraud, abuse, and theft,
and Minnesota popped. I will just give you a minute to respond?
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Higgins. Why did not you do something sooner? I know
some people were put in jail, I know there were investigations,
but there was billions and billions and billions of dollars
being stolen from a pretty concentrated demographic in your
community. And this demographic is a significant political
supporter for you and your party, good, sir. So, I just ask
you, please explain.
Governor Walz. Yes. Well, thank you, Mr. Higgins, and I
appreciate your question in good faith on this. First of all,
the issue of billions, and I will keep saying this, one dollar
is too many. That number got thrown around. There is nothing
behind it, but I will acknowledge one dollar is too much. I
will also note the characterization----
Mr. Higgins. I would say it is low. I would say it is low,
but continue.
Governor Walz. Well, there is nothing to support that, but,
look, we will pursue it and assume that that is the case. We
will still make the changes we need to make. The
characterization that nothing happened until the Trump
Administration came in is simply not true. We worked with them
in the first Administration where USDA did not take action, and
I think that is documented. The fact is, starting in 2019, I
went to the legislature asking for----
Mr. Higgins. But you did not pause payments, Governor.
Governor Walz. The pausing payments is----
Mr. Higgins [continuing]. And the criminal investigation,
which I am running out of time. I want to jump to, the way
America sees this, Governor Walz, respectfully, sir, is that
this money just continued to flow. There was a high awareness
of this waste, fraud, abuse, and theft, like organized-crime-
level theft, and it seemed to be slow rolled, and nobody
stopped the money from rolling in. The money is gone, been
remitted overseas.
Attorney General Ellison, you stated in your opening
statement, you sort of stated that your office only has direct
jurisdiction over Medicaid fraud. Did you say that in your
opening statement?
Mr. Ellison. I did say that.
Mr. Higgins. Okay. Well, you seem to indicate that you do
not have, like, criminal authority, but you do, don't you?
Under your own law, you have an authority. If the county
district attorney asks you to get involved or if the Governor
asks you to get involved, then your office can take lead on any
criminal investigations, specifically if you have particular
staffing and capabilities within your office because it is
statewide to look into organized crime. Is that not correct?
Mr. Ellison. It is true----
Mr. Higgins. Okay. So, you have the authority to lead your
state's effort to respond to this massive fraud at the state
level from within the healthcare realm where government money
has been stolen at very, very high levels, unprecedented levels
in your state. Are you leading that effort for the State of
Minnesota?
Mr. Ellison. Yes, we are aggressively prosecuting it.
Mr. Higgins. You are addressing it. Are you leading it? Are
you leading the effort?
Mr. Ellison. We are leading the effort to prosecute
Medicaid fraud in Minnesota.
Mr. Higgins. I am not talking about Medicaid fraud. Do not
hide behind that. You have the authority to prosecute anything
criminally that the Governor asks you to, and this thing is
big. I am giving you an opportunity, sir. Are you leading the
criminal investigative effort into this massive fraud across
the board in the healthcare spectrum in the State of Minnesota
or not?
Mr. Ellison. We are following the law, and the rest----
Mr. Higgins. You are not leading. You are not leading. I am
going to say, Mr. Chairman, that the Attorney General of the
State of Minnesota should resign. I yield.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
Before I recognize Mr. Frost, Mr. Walkinshaw, you were right.
She is not testifying in Homeland Security. Kristi Noem is
testifying in Judiciary. I knew she was here somewhere today,
so you were right. I misstated the wrong Committee.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost from Florida.
Mr. Frost. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and I have a
unanimous consent called, ``Fraud Focus: Why is Trump Granting
Clemency to Convicted Fraudsters?''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Frost. Thank you all for being here. The whole world
has witnessed unprecedented and extreme immigration enforcement
tactics this year in Minnesota. After the murder of Renee
Nicole Good and before the murder of Alex Pretti, President
Donald Trump posted on Truth Social that ``The day of reckoning
and retribution is coming.'' Governor Walz, the dictionary
defines ``retribution'' as ``punishment inflicted on someone as
vengeance for a wrong or criminal act.'' Based on what we have
seen play out in Minneapolis, what is the problem with the
President of the United States directing agents to carry out
retribution?
Governor Walz. Well, yes. Thank you, and this is certainly
troubling because under the guise of fraud, which we all want
to tackle, we were subject to, as you saw, the largest invasion
of a state by the Federal Government, I do not know, in
certainly any of our lifetimes, and that infliction, to me, we
are trying to figure it out. Look, we will acknowledge, and we
are fixing it in Minnesota, but I am telling you, each of you
are going to go back to your state, and if some of you think
you want to be Governor, you are going to deal with this, and
these folks keep moving.
The problem is, Congressman, this was about retribution.
This was about singling out Minnesota, and I am going to just
name it. I think it is singling out because our state works,
and it provides things for people and we care, and we mind our
own business and we respect our neighbors, and this retribution
had nothing to do with getting the worst of the worst. We know
that. It had nothing to do with stopping fraud, and we were
subject, we being Minnesotans, for over ten weeks.
And I want to note just before, and I will yield back on
this, Congressman. I think this is important to note. The
gentleman from Illinois noted Midway Blitz, the damage it did
to Chicago, there were 500 agents on the ground in Chicago.
Kristi Noem testified yesterday there are still 650 in
Minnesota. It is not over. This is not ancient news. This is
not looking like everybody moved on. Minnesotans are still
experiencing this.
Mr. Frost. It is bad for our communities and makes our
people less safe. It is terrorizing our streets.
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Frost. Reverend, what has been happening in your
community when individuals try to record Federal agents?
Reverend Tollgaard. Thank you for your question.
Individuals who have tried to record Federal agents have been
told they cannot. They have been asked for--taken pictures of
their license plates. They have been followed. They have been
subject to fear and intimidation tactics by ICE agents.
Mr. Frost. And one of the only reasons that, really, the
world knows about what is going on in Minnesota is because of
our Constitution and the right to be able to record law
enforcement and Federal agents. Those videos and the videotapes
have been, in part, the reason why we know what is going on.
Trump Administration officials have suggested that observing or
identifying Federal agents is ``doxxing'' or ``assault.'' We
know Federal agents have followed observers to their homes. We
know protestors have been pepper sprayed. We know people have
been violently detained who were filming them. Without
bystanders having cameras, who knows how the murders of Renee
Nicole Good and Alex Pretti by ICE agents would have been
handled by this Administration?
They have already tried to lie about these murders, even
with footage. After Alex Pretti was murdered, Stephen Miller
said he was ``a domestic terrorist,'' who tried to
``assassinate Federal law enforcement.'' Kristi Noem said that
he committed an act of domestic terrorism, and the President of
the United States said that he was an agitator and perhaps an
insurrectionist.
Reverend, the last thing I want to get to that I think is
really important, I grew up in the church, and I used to wear
one of the ``What Would Jesus Do'' bracelets, mainly because I
used to curse a little too much when I was little, and then I
would, like, snap myself when I cursed. Either way, nowadays I
think less about what would Jesus do, and I think more about
what would happen to Jesus in this country. And I just wanted
to give you a moment to talk about what you think would happen
to refugees, Mary and Joseph, as they come to our border. Would
they be separated from their child? I mean, what does this look
like?
Reverend Tollgaard. Such a good point, Congressman, and,
yes, Jesus was himself a refugee as were His parents, and, yes,
I fear that they, too, would have experienced the harm and
cruel treatment that Minnesotans have been experiencing at the
hands of our government.
Mr. Frost. What do you say to the people who hide behind
the Bible and wrap themselves in the flag to say that what is
going on in our country right now with ICE terrorizing our
communities, ripping our neighbors--ripping our families apart,
what would you say to people like that?
Reverend Tollgaard. I think, again, Matthew 25, where are
we in this moment? It should be on the side of the least--the
widow, the orphan, the hungry, the homeless--and that as people
of faith and moral conscience, history will tell what side we
stood on, but our actions today will show true love of
neighbor.
Mr. Frost. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Before I
recognize Ms. Mace, Mr. Grothman, I believe, has a UC.
Mr. Grothman. Yes. I would like to submit for the record
something here called----
Chairman Comer. Hit the button.
Mr. Grothman. I would like to submit for the record
something called, ``Minnesota Financial and Compliance Report
on Federally Assisted Programs for the Year Ending June 30,
2024.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Mace from South Carolina.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning,
gentlemen. Thank you for being here today.
Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, you have
presided over one of the worst government fraud scandals in
American history. This was money intended to feed hungry
children, help kids with autism, provide food and shelter and
healthcare to the needy, and more. You both allowed billions in
these American taxpayer dollars to be pillaged and plundered by
Somali pirates. You knew this was happening, you chose to do
nothing about it, and in some cases, you even enabled it.
Attorney General Ellison, you even profited from this fraud by
taking campaign donations from these Somalians after pledging
to help quash the investigation into them. I find your behavior
despicable.
My questions this morning, my first go to Governor Walz,
and I hope you learned some lessons from your last hearing with
me on the Oversight Committee. Have you learned anything since
then?
Governor Walz. I did, that if I did not speak up, two of my
people would be dead, Congresswoman, and I warned you.
Ms. Mace. Okay. Governor Walz, what is a woman? Have you
learned that lesson? Do you know what a woman is?
Governor Walz. I am the Governor of Minnesota, Congressman.
Ms. Mace. Do you know what a woman is?
Governor Walz. I am not here to be your prop for your
obsession. I taught middle school.
Ms. Mace. Okay. So, if you cannot define what woman is----
Governor Walz. Your obsession----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. You certainly cannot define what
fraud is. If you cannot even define what a woman is, you cannot
define fraud. How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota
in 2017, Governor?
Governor Walz. I do not have those numbers in front of me,
Congresswoman.
Ms. Mace. Okay. Did you prepare for this hearing today?
Governor Walz. I did.
Ms. Mace. Did you do any preparation for today?
Governor Walz. I take Congress seriously.
Ms. Mace. Okay, and you have seen the numbers about autism
fraud in Minnesota. So, we are going to do some Minnesota math
with you today, okay? Are you ready? How much money was spent
in 2017 for autism in Minnesota? How much?
Governor Walz. I do not know. I was not the Governor.
Ms. Mace. Okay. Did you not just say that you prepared for
this hearing today? One million dollars, okay? A quick Google
search or using your AI could tell you $1 million was spent.
How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2024?
Governor Walz. I do not have the number in front of me. As
Governor, I do not----
Ms. Mace. Were you Governor in 2024?
Governor Walz. I was, but I am not the head of Health and
Human Services (HHS).
Ms. Mace. Okay. So, your excuse before that you did not
know what 2017 autism numbers were because you were not
Governor, and today you cannot answer the numbers about 2024 as
Governor, and you still said you prepared for this hearing
today. It is unbelievable. Three hundred and forty-three
million dollars was spent in 2024. What percent increase is
that? From $1 million to $343 million, what percentage increase
is that?
Governor Walz. I am not here to be your prop. Go ahead and
tell me.
Ms. Mace. Wait, are you Governor of Minnesota or not?
Governor Walz. Yes, I am. I am not prop for a Member of
Congress.
Ms. Mace. Okay. Well, when I am Governor of South Carolina,
you can sure as hell bet that I am going to know the math. The
math is 34,200-percent increase, an increase of 343 times what
it was in this time period. Do you know the number of children
in Minnesota?
Governor Walz. I know that Minnesota ranked as a top three
state for children in the last year.
Ms. Mace. Okay. What is the total population in Minnesota?
Governor Walz. Five-point-seven million.
Ms. Mace. Okay. What is the total population of children in
Minnesota?
Governor Walz. I do not have the number in front of me
right now.
Ms. Mace. Are you Governor of Minnesota?
Governor Walz. I know 400,000 were cut out of healthcare
last week----
Ms. Mace. Okay. That is not----
Governor Walz [continuing]. By the decisions you made.
Ms. Mace. Are you Governor of Minnesota?
Governor Walz. I am.
Ms. Mace. And you do not know the number of children
residing in Minnesota? It is----
Governor Walz. I do not have the specific number. It is 5.7
million.
Ms. Mace. That is your total population.
Governor Walz. What is the age, zero to five?
Ms. Mace. One-point-two----
Governor Walz. Zero to 19?
Ms. Mace. You have approximately 1.2 million children in
Minnesota.
Governor Walz. What age?
Ms. Mace. I am not even Governor of South Carolina. Our
population in South Carolina is 5.5 million. We have
approximately 1.1 million children under the age of 18 in my
home state of South Carolina, okay? As Governor, I expect you
to know this information. Thank god you are not Vice President
of the United States. Do you know approximately how many
children in Minnesota are autistic or on the spectrum?
Governor Walz. No, I do not have that number.
Ms. Mace. Okay. Well, if you take the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention (CDC)'s roughly 1 in 36 kids are on the
spectrum, we are talking about approximately 33,000 kids. In
South Carolina, it is about 31,000 or so. Do you know what this
is per child spending wise in the fraud for autistic kids in
Minnesota?
Governor Walz. Again, I am not here to be your prop. Go
ahead and tell us.
Ms. Mace. Is doing Minnesota math a prop? This is math. We
are talking about fraud. We are talking about----
Governor Walz. Minnesota ranks at the top.
Ms. Mace. We are talking about money.
Governor Walz. Where does South Carolina rank?
Ms. Mace. We are talking about money. That was supposed
to----
Governor Walz. Where does South Carolina children rank on
healthiness?
Ms. Mace. These are my questions for you. It does not go
the other way around unless we are debating on the debate
stage, and we are not, but this is----
Governor Walz. If you are asking questions about being
Governor, it does.
Ms. Mace. I am asking you questions about being Governor--
--
Governor Walz. When you are Governor, you can come and
count.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Of Minnesota, which you cannot
answer. This is basic math, and you cannot even answer.
Governor Walz. I am not here to be your prop.
Ms. Mace. Do you even care about kids in Minnesota? Do you
care?
Governor Walz. They rank near the top in every category. My
children are fed. My children are housed. My children have
healthcare.
Ms. Mace. Are autistic children are getting the services
they need in Minnesota.
Governor Walz. My children have the best schools.
Ms. Mace. You clearly do not. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Oh, Ms. Boebert? Yes.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Oh, Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. May I make my two motions?
Chairman Comer. Proceed.
Ms. Mace. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I move that the
Committee issue a subpoena to Hon. Pamela Jo Bondi to appear
before the Committee for a deposition regarding the
Department's handling of the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein
and his associates in compliance with the Epstein Files
Transparency Act.
Chairman Comer. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing.
The Committee will now proceed with today's hearing.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee issue a
subpoena to the Office of congressional Workplace Rights for
the awards and settlements paid pursuant to Section 415 of the
congressional Accountability Act prior to December 12, 2018,
with only redactions allowable for the personally identifiable
information of victims, alleged victims, and witnesses.
Ms. Boebert. Hear, hear.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, ma'am.
Chairman Comer. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing.
Ms. Randall. Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent.
Mr. Garcia. Oh, Mr. Chairman, can I have one thing before--
--
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. No, we would just like to see Mrs.
Mace's motions in writing, which would be great.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Now, before I recognize Ms. Lee, Ms.
Randall?
Ms. Randall. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I ask unanimous consent
to enter into the record a December 11, 2025, article from the
Guardian titled, ``Somalis Are the Scapegoat: Fear Rises as
Trump Targets Minneapolis Community,'' which describes the
Trump----
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Ms. Randall [continuing]. Administration's xenophobic
attacks.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair recognizes Ms. Lee from Pennsylvania.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the past few months,
Democrats on this Committee and in the Senate have been holding
hearings on the unconstitutional actions of the Trump
Administration. So, we have heard from in that time
whistleblowers, industry experts, and survivors of abuses of
Federal agents. They spoke about warrantless searches that they
have been subjected to, including Federal agents bursting into
their homes with guns. They spoke about being shot at and
dragged out of their cars, and then, you know, being made to
look like they were actually the perpetrators. They spoke about
Federal agents' use of masks and unmarked vehicles, and the
efforts of these agents to hide their identity to escape any
sort of accountability. And we heard from the brother of Renee
Good, who was murdered by ICE agents in Minneapolis. That is
what oversight looks like, not two hearings on fraud in one
single state, which is not even the worst instance of fraud out
there, though we all here agree that we should target fraud.
Republicans have dragged Governor Walz in again to demonize
and target his state because he is a Democratic Governor and he
is implementing Democratic policies. Republicans took a
legitimate investigation, and as per usual, has made it a
circus. Now, we have just a random guy lurking around childcare
centers trying to get into buildings with children as the fraud
vigilante. The Somali community has been vilified and made to
feel unsafe, and Federal benefits are being cut to Minnesota
and other Democrat-led states. Trump and his Administration
also used this investigation as a justification for an
immigration enforcement push that has created chaos and fueled
violence, and resulted in the death of American citizens.
Reverend Tollgaard, as a Minnesotan, do you feel that these
oversight hearings and the Trump Administration's fixation on
fraud in Minnesota has made anyone safer in your state?
Reverend Tollgaard. No, they have not.
Ms. Lee. Republicans have been touting alleged fraud in
childcare centers and the need to protect children, but since
the immigration enforcement push, have kids been able to be
kids? Have they felt comfortable going to school or playing out
in public with each other or with their friends?
Reverend Tollgaard. They have not been safe. They have not
been able to go to school, to be in playgrounds, to be in
libraries and places you would normally expect to find them.
Ms. Lee. Are you worried about the long-term impact of
being surrounded by violence and uncertainty of what it could
have on these children?
Reverend Tollgaard. I am deeply concerned about that, and I
know that their teachers and their parents are as well.
Ms. Lee. You were arrested earlier this year while
protesting ICE agents and deportations. Why was it important
for you and other clergy members to speak out against Trump's
Administration's actions in Minnesota and elsewhere?
Reverend Tollgaard. Thank you for your question. I was
arrested along with 99 other faith leaders in Minnesota, many
of whom could be here today, and we were compelled to action to
stand on the side of the most vulnerable in our communities and
those who have been facing enormous cruelty and unfair actions
on the hands of ICE. And we needed to stand alongside them, as
have many others in our faith traditions in history. We stand
along with that great cloud of witnesses.
Ms. Lee. I want to thank you for coming in today and for,
of course, having the courage to stand up to the attacks
against your community. This, as we can all see, was never
truly about fraud. It is a part of a greater effort by Trump
and Republicans to gut social services, roll back civil rights,
to villainize and make others out of people who they do not
want to have and enjoy the same civil liberties and rights as
others in this Nation. They want to strip away and have been
stripping away healthcare and education, childcare funding that
millions of people rely on. This investigation and these
actions have only been used to harm, not to help people. And
rest assured, this will not stop in Minnesota just as it did
not stop in Chicago before that or LA before that. This is a
blatant attempt, blatant authoritarian grab that the Trump
Administration has been persistent in. It will come to all
shores if we do not all take a collective stance.
But more than that, urging my colleagues in the Republican
caucus or conference to take up their job and their test as a
co-equal branch of government. We do not serve as the lapdogs,
as the cult followers of Donald Trump, of a President. When
there are abuses or overreach, it is supposed to be us that
takes a stand. And I would hope that at some point in the 119th
Congress, some Republican with a gavel will do so. I thank you
all for your time, and I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Donalds from Florida.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman. Governor Walz, when did
you first receive notice of potential fraud in Minnesota's
social services programs?
Governor Walz. Social service programs in general, we knew
that there was issues with the Child Care Assistance Program
(CCAP) program as early as 2012, and my first days in office,
we started taking action.
Mr. Donalds. But as Governor, when were you first notified?
Governor Walz. Before I took office.
Mr. Donalds. All right. Governor Walz, former Department of
Human Services Commissioner, Tony Laurie, testified that you
were aware in early 2019 of fraud in two Department of Human
Services-administered programs. Is this statement accurate?
Governor Walz. Not that I recall. I am not sure what he is
speaking about.
Mr. Donalds. You do not remember this meeting or this
notification?
Governor Walz. No, not specifically, I do not.
Mr. Donalds. In March 2019, your Office of Legal Affairs
reported $5 to $6 million in alleged Childcare Assistance
Program fraud. In April 2019, it was also reported that the
Department of Human Services lacked proper integrity controls
to control fraud. Were you aware of these reports?
Governor Walz. Not specific reports, but because of that,
my office, we put forward actions to address them starting in
2019.
Mr. Donalds. Is it correct that your Administration was
aware of the Feeding Our Future fraud as early as of May 2020
based upon regular discussions about program irregularities?
Governor Walz. I believe that is correct with the agency,
the Department of Education, and then going back to USDA.
Mr. Donalds. I am going to go back. Was your office
notified of these fraud allegations?
Governor Walz. Not me specifically, that they are handled
internally in the Administration. It happens every day.
Mr. Donalds. Who was notified, Governor Walz?
Governor Walz. The agencies do their work, the
commissioners, and then if someone in my office was notified,
they let me know. As Governor, you know, I make 50 decisions a
day. I said, I did this job for 12 years. I make more decisions
in a day.
Mr. Donalds. Governor Walz.
Governor Walz. So, someone was maybe notified, but the
agencies are the ones that take the action.
Mr. Donalds. May I ask the next question? We have it under
sworn testimony in the Oversight Committee that your former
Chief of Staff was notified directly by these various
commissioners about the fraud in Minnesota.
Governor Walz. That could be correct.
Mr. Donalds. So, are you saying that your Chief of Staff
did not notify you?
Governor Walz. I am saying I do not recall whether he did
at that time or not, but we took action. So, I am assuming when
we put our budgets together, based on that, we put a package
together for that legislative session.
Mr. Donalds. Let us talk about budgets, Governor Walz.
Feeding Our Future went from $307,000 in 2018 to $199 million
in 2021. Are you aware of this increase in budgetary costs from
Feeding Our Future?
Governor Walz. Not specifically, but I know it increased
during the pandemic.
Mr. Donalds. The Housing Stabilization Services went from
$27 million in 2021 to $105 million in 2024. Are you aware of
this increase, Governor Walz?
Governor Walz. Not specifically, but I know it increased.
Mr. Donalds. Autism centers went from $24 million in 2019
to $342 million in 2024. Are you aware of that?
Governor Walz. Not specifically again, but yes, we know the
budgets increased.
Mr. Donalds. Integrated Community Supports went from $4.6
million in 2021 to $170 million in 2024. Are you aware of that?
Governor Walz. Again, not specifically on the numbers, but
it is the budget.
Mr. Donalds. Governor Walz, you have to submit a budget to
your legislature every single year like every Governor has to
do. If you are not aware of these increases, what was your
office doing?
Governor Walz. Every one is balanced. My budget is about
$72 billion. It impacts 23 agencies, six million people.
Mr. Donalds. Florida's budget is $115 billion, sir, but
what were you doing if you are seeing program increases like
this amid allegations of fraud in your state?
Governor Walz. Action was being taken on these starting
back in 2019 if it was seen.
Mr. Donalds. Can you describe the action that was taken in
2019?
Governor Walz. Sure. In 2019, I will go to the first things
that we did on childcare assistance. We lowered the standards
on proof of administrative fraud disqualification. We increased
the----
Mr. Donalds. Whoa, whoa, you lowered the standards?
Governor Walz. We lowered the standards for proof of
administrative fraud. The standards where we had to prove it
were so high, it was impossible to try and do it, so we lowered
what it took to show that fraud was happening.
Mr. Donalds. And what did you do with the results of
lowering the standards to prove fraud? What did you do?
Governor Walz. We put 79 people in prison and----
Mr. Donalds. But Governor Walz----
Governor Walz [continuing]. We continued to prosecute----
Mr. Donalds [continuing]. The fraud continued to increase.
It increased under your tenure. Do you acknowledge that?
Governor Walz. Did the numbers increase? Yes, and I tell
you, when you catch people and prosecute them, it shows up that
the fraud increase. I would tell you, Congressman----
Mr. Donalds. But if it----
Governor Walz [continuing]. Just because you care----
Mr. Donalds. But if it increases----
Governor Walz [continuing]. About fraud does not mean----
Mr. Donalds. I got 50 seconds, Governor, and I do not want
to get into a fight with you, but let me move quickly to the
Lieutenant Governor. Peggy Flanagan is your Lieutenant
Governor. Is that correct?
Governor Walz. That is correct.
Mr. Donalds. Does the Lieutenant Governor go on the ticket
with you, or are they elected by themselves on a ballot in the
State of Minnesota?
Governor Walz. It is on a ticket.
Mr. Donalds. It is on a ticket. Peggy Flanagan essentially
works for you.
Governor Walz. She is a constitutional officer. She is on
the ticket, but she is independent as a constitutional officer
in Minnesota.
Mr. Donalds. You could ask for her resignation at any time.
Is that correct? That is typically how it works with lieutenant
Governors.
Governor Walz. Yes, but she is a constitutional officer. I
do not believe that has happened in Minnesota.
Mr. Donalds. Peggy Flanagan, there are accusations that she
was intimidating whistleblowers. There was a meeting on April
12 of 2024 where she went on stage and publicly denounced
whistleblowers in the State of Minnesota, calling them losers
in their mother's basements. Is this the type of treatment that
your Administration allows----
Governor Walz. I am not familiar----
Mr. Donalds [continuing]. For whistleblowers in Minnesota?
Governor Walz. I am not familiar with that.
Mr. Donalds. Are you aware of any intimidation of
whistleblowers in the State of Minnesota?
Governor Walz. No.
Mr. Donalds. There are 30 whistleblowers who have given
letters to this Committee on the record saying that they have
witnessed, they have been subject to intimidation by your
Administration because they were trying to stop the fraud in
Minnesota.
Governor Walz. I encouraged them to go to the OLA and the
independent sources of Minnesota that are open to that.
Mr. Donalds. The OLA. You are the Governor.
Governor Walz. No, the OLA is the independent officer
that----
Mr. Donalds. But sir, you are the Governor. Why didn't you
take responsibility for what is going on in your state?
Governor Walz. We do take responsibility. I am telling you,
I have no knowledge----
Mr. Donalds. But you lost billions of dollars of American
taxpayer money in the process, Governor Walz.
Governor Walz. We prosecuted these people, Congressmen. I
think Florida has fraud.
Mr. Donalds. I would argue that the prosecutions have
largely come from the Federal offices----
Governor Walz. That is not how this works.
Mr. Donalds [continuing]. As opposed to the state offices.
Governor Walz. You know what we refer to----
Mr. Donalds. What do you mean that is not how it works?
That is exactly how works.
Governor Walz. They are partners. They partner together at
the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA).
Mr. Donalds. Is the Attorney General allowed to investigate
fraud and prosecute fraud in the State of Minnesota without the
Department of Justice, federally? Are you allowed to do that,
Attorney General Ellison?
Mr. Ellison. Yes, and we do prosecute Medicaid fraud all
the time. We have prosecuted over 300 people since I have
been----
Mr. Donalds. Apparently not enough because Minnesota is
rife with it. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlemen yields back. The Chair
recognizes Ms. Randall from Washington State.
Ms. Randall. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Governor
Walz, Attorney General Ellison, and Reverend Tollgaard, for
being here to shed light on the impacts of the Trump
Administration's harmful actions in Minnesota, and, frankly, to
be pulled into some really ridiculous question lines.
The escalation in attacks from this Administration on
social services programs in Democratically led states like
Minnesota on the heels of the ``Big, Ugly Law's'' billions of
dollars of Medicaid cuts last summer is clearly devastating our
communities. Do I believe Congress has a responsibility to
reduce opportunities for misuse and fraud where we have seen
evidence that it exists? Sure. That is why I introduced the
Federal Program Integrity and Fraud Prevention Act, a
bipartisan bill that would prevent individuals who have been
convicted of fraud from applying for Federal contracts. Mr.
Chairman, if you are serious about addressing fraud, I would
love to see this Committee hold a hearing on my bill, which was
developed based on feedback from nonpartisan Inspectors
General, whose entire job is overseeing the appropriate
administration of government programs.
And let me remind my friends on the other side about
Mississippi, a state with Republican leadership where over $77
million in Temporary Assistance For Needy Families funds were
misused. One of the perpetrators of that fraud? former NFL
quarterback, Brett Favre, who received $1.1 million from the
Government for speeches he never made. Congressional
Republicans' response was to invite Favre to come testify
before the Ways and Means Committee about how we should
strengthen oversight of Federal welfare programs because I am
sure he had some good advice about that. Meanwhile, my
Republican colleagues are villainizing entire minority
populations because of the actions of a few. We have a word for
that.
I also have a lot of Republican colleagues here who talk
about being fiscally responsible and reigning in Federal
spending. Again, I also believe we should be fiscally
responsible, but to me, fiscally responsible governing means
that we invest in transformative universal healthcare that
saves us money in the long term, childcare policies that give
the budget back $7 on the dollar spent in long-term costs for
the children who benefit; policies that will actually save our
country money in the long run and contribute to a strong
society and strong economy, not slashing social services, not
defunding hospitals, not eliminating childcare programs.
Governor Walz, why do you think the Trump Administration is
so obsessed with fraud in Minnesota when its own agencies have
found other states with even worse problems?
Governor Walz. Well, it is a question we are all asking,
Congresswoman, and I would like to say, and thank you for this.
I just want to make sure I go on record, Chairman Comer, in
condemning the slurs toward my Somali community that the
gentlewoman from South Carolina made. Thank you.
Look, Congresswoman, I do not know. I think it has been
pretty clear the president does not like me personally. I think
he continues to tell lies about our electoral system, claiming
that he has won all three times when he lost all three times. I
think he has people around him who were trying to find quotas
around immigration, and they saw a perfect storm, if you will,
that included some Somali folks. You know, if we are going to
condemn folks, there are no Somali folks in the Epstein files,
things like that, we know, but I do not know. It is an
obsession, and I come back to it again. I think it is because
we are so ideologically opposed to making children go hungry,
people go unhoused. We invest in education, we invest in
research, and we believe everybody has a place. And so, I think
it is just personal about how we do business.
Ms. Randall. Thank you so much. I could not agree more.
There are also reports that as many as 50 prosecutors in the
U.S. Attorney's Office for Minnesota have quit in the last 12
months. They used to have 70 prosecutors. Now some reports say
they have as few as 17. Many of those who left include the very
same prosecutors who were prosecuting the Feeding Our Future
fraudsters. How has this flight impacted your efforts to fight
fraud in Minnesota?
Governor Walz. Well, it is made it very difficult. And I
think for all of my friends on the Republican side, we welcomed
the Republican folks, the attorneys over at the U.S. Attorney's
Office who were good at helping us as partners. We turned this
over to them. They prosecuted. They put people in jail. They
are not there now. There is nobody doing this. And I will
remind this Committee, the U.S. attorney was in front of a
Federal judge yesterday being threatened with jail because of
what is going on in that office. And from my perspective, who
is prosecuting trafficking, drugs, murder, and fraud?
And so, we want them. If you could do anything, Chairman,
call the President and tell him to put some U.S. attorneys over
there to prosecute fraud. I will sign on with you.
Ms. Randall. Thank you, Governor, and thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Chairman Burchett
from Tennessee.
Mr. Burchett. You say that with disrespect in your voice,
Mr. Chairman.
Governor, you mentioned that President Trump lost all three
times. I believe that is an error, and that is a conspiracy
theorist. I believe you have spoken in error there, but----
Governor Walz. No, he lost Minnesota all three times.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. Okay. Well, I am glad you corrected
that because----
Governor Walz. He does not agree with that, though, Chair--
--
Mr. Burchett [continuing]. We are good. We are good. Have
you ever used taxpayer funds directly or indirectly to take
action against individuals suspected of disclosing potential
wrongdoing within a government entity?
Governor Walz. I have not.
Mr. Burchett. Well, almost 30 whistleblowers accused you
and your administration of retaliation. Would you say that is a
conspiracy then?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to what they said. I can tell
you it did not happen.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. Are you aware of reports alleging state
officials have engaged in retaliation against whistleblowers?
Governor Walz. No, I am not. Not specifically, no.
Mr. Burchett. You are not aware of that when 30 have come
forward? Okay.
Governor Walz. I am not. I believe these are internet.
Mr. Burchett. Okay.
Governor Walz. We have options. The OLA, we have
independent folks that they can come to, and I encourage them.
It is against the law in Minnesota. I have executive orders----
Mr. Burchett. It is against the law here, but it does not
stop it. What actions have you taken to protect whistleblowers
in your state, sir, and has anyone faced consequences for
retaliation? If so, who?
Governor Walz. Well, in Minnesota we have a nonpartisan
Office of Legislative Auditor. We have zero tolerance. The
Minnesota Whistleblower Protection Act prohibits retaliation. I
signed an executive order in 2025, added protections. The law
expands and clarifies protections around what reports are
protected and who can report issues. They are strong. When I
was here, I was an advocate for the Inspectors General (IG)s,
and I think that is well known in my 12 years here that we need
them.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. Well, a whistleblower told our office
that her supervisor at the Minnesota Department of Health and
Human Services threatened to make her job difficult, and the
supervisor that did that later received a promotion. Would that
surprise you, and can you confirm if this account is accurate?
Governor Walz. No, I cannot confirm it, and I do not make
HR decisions. But I am being very clear about this, there is a
zero tolerance for whistleblower retaliation in Minnesota.
Mr. Burchett. How can any agency combat fraud when
retaliation goes unchecked?
Governor Walz. It makes it more difficult. That is why we
do not allow it.
Mr. Burchett. Do you think that any of the fraudsters sent
stolen funds to Somali terrorist groups?
Governor Walz. Pardon me?
Mr. Burchett. Do you think that any of the Somali folks
that received funds sent any of the stolen funds to Somali
terrorist groups?
Governor Walz. There have been reports done and
investigations done on this, and I do not believe there is any
proof to support that.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. Mr. Attorney General, do you recall a
December 2021 meeting with individuals connected to Feeding Our
Future, during which you stated there will be cases that you
know, ``I want you to feel free to call me directly, and then I
call up and like, `what is the problem,' and let me tell you,
just letting the inquiry from AG is sometimes enough to make
people knock it off.''
Mr. Ellison. Congressman, yes, I was at a meeting like
that. Let me just say that I have reported on this numerous
times. I have been in front of a Committee in the Senate. I am
here today. I was in front of a state House Committee. This is
a widely discussed matter, and I have been fully transparent,
but let me just be clear. These people were fraudsters as
everyone here agrees. They were liars. They lied to me, they
lied to courts, they lied to everyone, and I would like you to
know that I do meet with community meetings all the time. I
mean, it is a regular part of my job. Nothing unusual about me
meeting with people. Nothing unusual about me telling people if
you got a problem, you know, my office will try to help you,
but these people were liars and fraudsters.
Mr. Burchett. Okay.
Mr. Ellison. The main thing I would like you to know is
that we are down so many Federal prosecutors that it has put
our ability to hold these people accountable, definitely at a
low.
Mr. Burchett. Yes, sir. Eight hour days do get long. In
September 2022, you issued a press release titled, ``For Two
Years, Attorney General Ellison's Office Has Held Feeding Our
Future Accountable.'' Does that sound familiar?
Mr. Ellison. Thank you for the question, Congressman. Let
me tell you, the Department of Education----
Mr. Burchett. Does it sound familiar or not, sir?
Mr. Ellison. It certainly does, and the Department of----
Mr. Burchett. Okay. How much did you receive in campaign
contributions from individuals charged in the Feeding Our
Future case?
Mr. Ellison. Every campaign donation I got was returned to
all authorities.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. Everybody knows about the $250 million
in fraud for Feeding Our Future case, which was prosecuted by
the U.S. Attorney's Office in Minnesota, but there were just
two other large site sponsors that you settled with instead of
prosecuting them. Why did you not prosecute Partners in Quality
Care or the Gar Gaar Family Services?
Mr. Ellison. Because my office does not have jurisdiction
to prosecute in those cases.
Mr. Burchett. Well, you allowed them to dissolve, but no
one was prosecuted, and Partners in Quality Care (PIQC)----
Mr. Ellison. They still may be, Congressman.
Mr. Burchett. Sir, PIQC is accused of $300 million in fraud
as significant assets, yet no charges and no attempts to
recover taxpayer money. I will remind you all, $19 billion. I
was a state legislator and I can remember when our state budget
was $19 billion. This is money that has been stolen and it will
not be recovered, and you all are to blame, and every dadgum
one of you all ought to step down. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Before I
recognize Mr. Bell, Mr. Donalds, you have a UC?
Mr. Donalds. Yes, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
record an op-ed from the Minnesota Star Tribune authored by Jim
Nobles, the former Minnesota legislative auditor, dated
December 29, 2025.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Bell from St. Louis.
Mr. Bell. Thank you, Chair, Ranking Member, and our
witnesses for being here today. My Republican colleagues have
called this hearing today once again to divert the public's
attention from the dangerous threats that they themselves have
created for the American people. They have chosen to turn a
blind eye to the escalating public safety crisis in
Minneapolis, Minnesota, fueled by the deployment of ICE agents
under the direction of President Trump.
On December 1, 2025, this Administration launched Operation
Metro Surge under the false pretense of promoting public safety
in Minneapolis. Since then, we have witnessed several deaths,
including the brutal killings of Renee Good on January 7, 2026,
and Alex Pretti only a few short weeks later on January 24.
News reports state that in 2026 alone, there have already been
eight additional deaths at the hands of Federal agents. We are
now living in one of the deadliest periods on record with more
deaths carried out by ICE agents in recent years than at any
time since 2004. Under this Administration's direction, masked
agents have inflicted trauma that will remain in these
communities and neighborhoods. There is a lack of
accountability and justice. Survivors' stories have been
suppressed, false narratives have been told, and Federal
officials have refused to cooperate, even going so far as to
block state investigators from accessing evidence.
AG Ellison, as the chief legal officer for the State of
Minnesota, what level of cooperation would you expect from the
Federal Government during an investigation of this magnitude?
Mr. Ellison. Congressman, I would expect the kind of
cooperation that we are used to experiencing. I mean, in all of
the time that I have even been a lawyer, which is now 36 years,
state-Federal cooperation was exactly how we did business all
the time. We are very proud and we love working with our FBI
agents, DEA agents, ATF agents. It is a regular thing. This is
what is strange and unusual.
Mr. Bell. And has the lack of cooperation and unclear
communication from the Federal agencies undermine the
investigations into the death of Renee Good and Alex Pretti?
Mr. Ellison. It certainly has. We have been denied access
to critical evidence in this case that we would need to
evaluate this matter based on a use of force analysis.
Mr. Bell. Which is befuddling to me because as a former
prosecutor, I have led serious and thorough investigations in
pursuit of justice. I can say that what we have seen by DHS,
DOJ, and the FBI is the complete opposite of a detailed and
thorough investigation into the wrongdoing of ICE officials.
And let us be clear: despite what President Trump would have
the public believe, those agents remain on the streets of
Minnesota. These actions are not isolated incidents. We have
seen similar events taking place across the Nation in Illinois,
North Carolina, California, to name a few. We have heard
directly from survivors about the cruelty and mistreatment they
endured by ICE agents, and we have seen the individuals
appointed under President Trump to head these operations evade
justice and not be held accountable for their actions.
We cannot stand by and allow this to continue. Those
responsible for these actions must be held accountable and
survivors and their families deserve answers and justice, which
is why, Mr. Chair, I move that pursuant to Clause (ii),
Subsection (k)(6) of Rule XI, the Committee shall subpoena Greg
Bovino to testify before the House Committee on Oversight and
Government Reform.
Chairman Comer. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing.
The Committee will now proceed with today's hearing.
Mr. Bell. I yield the remainder of my time to the Ranking
Member.
Mr. Garcia. I would like just to provide just a few of that
time to the Reverend, who wanted to make some additional
comments about something that was said earlier in the hearing.
Reverend Tollgaard. Thank you.
Mr. Garcia. You have 30 seconds.
Reverend Tollgaard. Thank you. Just following up on Matthew
25. I am so proud of the countless ways that Minnesotans,
Christians, and people of other faiths and moral conscience
have stepped forward to show love of neighbor and to come
alongside those who are suffering most in this time. There is
no greater example of living out the teachings of Christ and
caring for the least among us than what we have seen in
Minnesota these past few months.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Before I
recognize Mr. Perry, I have a unanimous consent to enter into
the record an article from Alpha News where U.S. Attorney Rosen
stated, ``We have more than adequate staffing to carry out the
fraud. We have been reinforced in dramatic numbers by the
Department of Justice and by other departments of the Federal
Government.'' He also said fraud investigations are increasing
in pace: ``Fraud prosecutions you will see are going to be
dramatically increasing in pace.'' According to Rosen, if you
are committing fraud in the State of Minnesota, it is really
not a good time to be doing so. I just wanted to enter that
article into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania.
Mr. Perry. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you
again. You are an Army guy. I am an Army guy. What is, as
Governor, one of your primary responsibilities is keep your
citizens safe, right? I think we could probably agree on that.
We might not agree on much, but we could probably agree on
that, and I heard you talk earlier about working with Federal
partners. There has a lot been discussed here about fraud of
various kinds, but I want to talk about something that seems to
me, quite honestly, a dereliction of duty or certainly a huge
lapse in judgment. Now, were Governor in October 2023, right?
Governor Walz. That is correct, Congressman.
Mr. Perry. I just want to make sure we are on the same page
here, and you signed the Minnesota Driver's Licenses for All
Act. Is that correct?
Governor Walz. That is correct.
Mr. Perry. That is correct, right? So, now, look, I am not
going to hold you to knowing every single thing in these laws.
There are a lot of paragraphs and wording, and so on and so
forth, but under your law that you signed, it prohibits the
disclosure of information contained in the license or
identification card applications for enforcing Title VIII of
the United States Code. Just to make sure, are you familiar
with what Title VIII deals with?
Governor Walz. I am not specifically.
Mr. Perry. Okay. So, it deals with immigration,
nationality, and aliens. Particularly, the law that you signed
eliminates the requirement for Social Security numbers or proof
of lawful presence, and furthermore, it is a violation under
Section 14-4 of your code for anybody to research that. As a
matter of fact, immigration status is classified as private
under Section 13.18. So, literally, the Federal Government,
your partner, as you said, we work with our Federal partners,
cannot use that driver's license information regarding people
that are here illegally. Now----
Governor Walz. I do not understand the connection between
the driver's license and the immigration piece, I guess.
Mr. Perry. Well, let me make the connection for you.
According to the Secretary of Transportation, one-third of
Minnesota's non-domiciled commercial driver's licenses were
issued illegally. Were issued illegally. Do you have a video
ready to play for me? Can you play it now? This is what
happens, Mr. Governor. This is what happens when you issue
driver's licenses to people illegally.
[Video shown.]
Mr. Perry. And crossing over there, and thank God. I do not
know how much that thing weighs, 60-80,000 pounds, 60 miles an
hour. You can cut the video. He was licensed in your state
under a law that you signed that precludes Federal officials,
your Federal partners as you call them, from determining
whether they are here illegally. That guy that was driving that
truck could not pass the test. He did not pass the test out on
the road. There is another video--I am not going to play it--
but there is another video of a guy here illegally turning a
truck like that around in the middle of a highway where people
lost their lives because they were decapitated when they went
underneath it. That is what happened. So, my question for you
is, this should be easy.
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Perry. What are you going to do to rectify the law that
you signed that allows people here illegally to get a
commercial driver's license (CDL)? That tape was in Missouri,
not in your state.
Governor Walz. Okay.
Mr. Perry. Look, if you do not want to protect the people
in your state, I guess that is your business and the business
of your voters, but that driver was driving in Missouri. And if
he would have hit a bunch of people, quite honestly, to me, you
could have been held liable.
Governor Walz. Yes. Well, Congressman, first of all,
Minnesota ranks in the top three safest states by highway data
from your own departments.
Mr. Perry. Highway data.
Governor Walz. The data from the Department of
Transportation for highway safety.
Mr. Perry. Yes. Right.
Governor Walz. We have the third. We want everybody on our
roads to be licensed and to be insured.
Mr. Perry. So, are you saying based on that, that you are
okay with----
Governor Walz. I am not okay with that. I am not okay with
you or I speeding. I am not okay with Driving Under the
Influence (DUI)s.
Mr. Perry. But you signed this law that allows for that.
You signed it, and you are going to do nothing about it?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak specifically on the CDL. What
I can tell you is legally, we believe that----
Mr. Perry. I can. I referenced your law.
Governor Walz. Everybody----
Mr. Perry. It says, ``House of Representatives, State of
Minnesota,'' and I know there are a lot of words here.
Governor Walz. I do not know the specific case. I just know
our roads are safer.
Mr. Perry. But I referenced exactly the sections that allow
for this to happen and preclude Federal enforcement regarding
immigration and the illegality of people receiving CDLs under
your state's provisions.
Governor Walz. Driver safety and immigration are two
separate things. Had that been a citizen or not, it is still
tragic, it is wrong, and we should not do it. What I am telling
you is in Minnesota, we have the third safest roads in the
country based on the things we do.
Mr. Perry. So, you are good. So, you are good with this
practice.
Governor Walz. I am not good with that, or with people----
Mr. Perry. Well, what are you good with, because that is
what is happening under your law.
Governor Walz. Well, I cannot speak to the specific on if
it is an outlier. We give licenses to people who then
eventually----
Mr. Perry. That happened
Governor Walz [continuing]. We give licenses to people who
then eventually----
Mr. Perry. Governor, do you know----
Governor Walz [continuing]. Break the law after we issue
them a license.
Mr. Perry [continuing]. That happened last month. This is
March. That happened a week and a half ago. Are you familiar?
Governor Walz. Yes, that is wrong, and, look, I----
Mr. Perry. But you are not going to do anything.
Governor Walz. Sure, we are going to do things.
Mr. Perry. What are you going to do?
Governor Walz. There are traffic laws against them.
Mr. Perry. What are we going to do?
Governor Walz. Was this person arrested?
Mr. Perry. I sure hope so.
Governor Walz. That is good.
Mr. Perry. But he was licensed in your state under your law
that you signed about a year and a half ago.
Governor Walz. Every day we give licenses and people speed,
so we ticket them and try and stop that. What I am telling you
is, I do not understand the connection between licensing----
Mr. Perry. He is here illegally, he cannot read, and he got
a license under your provisions----
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to the specifics.
Mr. Perry [continuing]. And he is driving all across the
country and periling everybody else. That is the connection.
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to that----
Mr. Perry. Thank you. Chair, I yield.
Governor Walz [continuing]. Because the data shows
Minnesota is one of the safest driving states in the country. I
do not know what to tell you.
Mr. Perry. They are all in other states driving,
apparently.
Governor Walz. I do not know, sir.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Mr. Perry. The Chair now
recognized Mr. Min from California.
Ms. Simon. I am first, sir.
Chairman Comer. Oh, you are next? Okay.
Ms. Simon. Is that okay, sir?
Chairman Comer. I did not have it on the list, but.
Ms. Simon. Oh, I showed up----
Chairman Comer. I will yield to the Ranking Member.
Mr. Min. You can go ahead. I do not care.
Ms. Simon. You sure? Okay.
Chairman Comer. Who is next?
Mr. Min. You can go ahead. I will let her go next.
Ms. Simon. I was tardy. I thank you, Mr. Min. I thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon and thank you, witnesses, for coming today.
So, what I have heard so far is Feeding Our Future, $250
million stolen, 50 convictions secured, the prosecution was
working, then the Administration froze $10 billion in childcare
across five states. No evidence, no legal authority, no
statutory process. A Federal court ruled it unlawful and
unconstitutional within 48 hours. Thank you, Attorney General
Ellison and Attorney General Bonta, for that work. Then the
lead prosecutor resigned. His team followed. Those prosecutions
are now at risk. So, the record shows they froze $10 billion
illegally, lost in court immediately, and dismantled the
prosecution actually putting fraudsters in prison. Every single
action made the fraud worse. This is not incompetence because
incompetence is random. This was targeted, legally defective,
and prosecutorially catastrophic. If this Committee was serious
about fraud, the first witness should have been the HHS
official who sent the letter, not the Attorney General who beat
them in court.
Attorney General Ellison, what are we doing here, and I
want actually to ask you, what is your office doing
systemically to prosecute fraud in the state?
Mr. Ellison. Well, thank you for the question,
Congresswoman. As I said, prosecuting Medicaid fraud is very
important work that we do. We do it every single day. We have
secured millions of dollars for people. We have gotten millions
in restitution. We have convicted people and held them
accountable. We also represent state agencies and help those
agencies support the work that they do. The fact of the matter
is, is that, you know, this work we do to stop fraud is helping
to protect public money. We are proud of it. And we also
support Federal prosecutions by providing them with information
that they need to prosecute fraud, which we have done and will,
of course, continue to do.
Ms. Simon. So, sir, so tell me this. How has the ability to
prosecute that fraud in social services programs been affected
by this Administration?
Mr. Ellison. Well, it has been devastated by the actions of
this Administration. This Administration has cut the number of
prosecutors, but also has redirected FBI agents to do
immigration as opposed to----
Ms. Simon. Why have they cut those prosecutors?
Mr. Ellison. Those prosecutors, actually I said ``cut,''
but they actually resigned as a matter of conscience because
the Administration was trying to force them to investigate the
widow of Renee Good.
Ms. Simon. Say more.
Mr. Ellison. So, many of them said that they could not work
under those circumstances because it violated their personal
ethical requirements, so they quit. So, they----
Ms. Simon. They left their jobs that they had sworn to do
en mass because they were conflicted with conscience.
Mr. Ellison. That is right, and may I add, Congresswoman,
that we have had motions to dismiss for the violation of a
defendant's right to a speedy trial granted by judges in
Minnesota because there are not enough Federal prosecutors.
And, you know, one of those was a person who was a violent
offender who was being prosecuted for a felon in possession of
a firearm. Case was dismissed because there are not enough
people to perform the functions of prosecuting people who
commit crimes. So, this is having a devastating effect on our
state, and in addition to all that, Congresswoman----
Ms. Simon. Well, so let me get this straight. Help me
understand. Fifty convictions secured. Additional prosecutions
in limbo. The Administration's prosecutors have quit because
the staging of how this all works, they believe and they have
said on record is immoral. Why are we here?
Mr. Ellison. I have been wondering that, Madam.
Ms. Simon. Because aren't you saying that you would love
for the prosecutions that are dangling in the wind, you would
love for those folks to face justice?
Mr. Ellison. Absolutely. Stealing public money is
repugnant.
Ms. Simon. So, the ask would be then to the Administration
for what? With this Committee here, I think your colleague, the
Governor of your great state, said you want more Federal
prosecutors on this case.
Mr. Ellison. Yes, but also, we should go back to the
Hippocratic oath of do no harm. I mean, it would be good to
just stop doing things that should not be done, such as
demanding that prosecutors investigate Renee Good's widow.
Ms. Simon. Right. That is right. Well, I want to thank you
all so much for coming today, and to the Reverend, I was able
to come to your state briefly. And like one of my colleagues
said, I did go by the site of Ms. Good's death, and it was
heartening to see the solidarity in your community. There are
about 150 Christians reciting the Lord's prayer over and over
and over. You all are showing us what good really means. Thank
you so much for being here today, and I will yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Crane from Arizona.
Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our guests
for coming today.
I want to start with you, Attorney General Ellison. In an
interview with CNN host, Laura Coates, she asked you about
whether or not you did enough to stop the fraud. Do you
remember that interview, Attorney General?
Governor Walz. Congressman, I got to admit that I do not
remember the details of that.
Mr. Crane. Can we play the video, please, so to refresh Mr.
Ellison's memory?
Chairman Comer. Are we ready? It may take us a second on
that. I am sorry.
Mr. Crane. Okay. I will just tell you what you said when
she asked you if you had done enough to stop the fraud, and she
mentioned the $9 billion. You said, ``Of course we have done
enough. We are doing more every single day. This is a political
matter. This is not a serious thing.'' Do you remember saying
that, Attorney General Ellison?
Mr. Ellison. I remember the conversation. What I remember
was that I was lamenting the politicized nature of this very
serious problem. I----
Mr. Crane. Well, you said it is not a serious thing, so now
you are saying----
Mr. Ellison. Fraud is a serious thing.
Mr. Crane. Okay. Well, that is not----
Mr. Ellison. Politicizing fraud is not a serious thing.
Mr. Crane. That is not what you said on CNN, Mr. Ellison.
You said this is a political matter, and this is a quote,
``This is not a serious thing.'' So, I noticed you are changing
your tune now that you are before the House Oversight
Committee.
Mr. Ellison. I would have to disagree.
Mr. Crane. Do you understand, Mr. Attorney General, why
this adds gasoline to the fire when Americans are so frustrated
with this government for their out-of-control spending and the
amount of money they pay in taxes, and then to see $9 billion
of it, an estimate of $9 billion, getting stolen of their
taxpayer dollars and being used to fund cars and vacations and
homes and even fund terrorism? Do you understand how statements
like that throw gasoline on the fire, sir?
Mr. Ellison. Congressman, I believe that you are
mischaracterizing what I said. Certainly----
Mr. Crane. No, I actually read you the quote. I am not
mischaracterizing it all.
Chairman Comer. Mr. Crane, the video is ready if you still
want it. It is up to you.
Mr. Crane. Yes, let us play it, please.
[Video shown.]
Mr. Crane. So, how are you going to sit here, Attorney
General, saying I am mischaracterizing? I read word for word
your quote. I then showed it to the entire dais, the entire
audience here today. How are you going to sit here and say that
I mischaracterized you?
Mr. Ellison. Congressman, I believe you mischaracterized me
because, clearly, what I was referring to by ``not serious'' is
that the serious issue of fraud is being politicized and
converted into a political weapon. That is not a serious matter
in my view. That is something that I believe all of us should
take seriously, but we are not taking seriously enough. So,
sir, I would say very clearly fraud is an odious, horrible,
malignant thing, and that is why it should not be turned into a
political weapon, but we should come together on a bipartisan
basis to stop it.
Mr. Crane. The reason it is becoming political, sir, is
because of statements like that when confronted with the $9
billion of fraud in your state, as the top cop in your state,
that you are clearly not doing enough to address. I want to
move on.
Reverend Tollgaard, you said in your opening statement that
today's hearing is ``about fraud in Minnesota, which is serving
as a pretext for the terror the Federal Government has brought
to the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a
rationale for deploying 3,000 Federal immigrant enforcement
agents into our state.'' Did you say that, Reverend?
Reverend Tollgaard. Yes.
Mr. Crane. This is absolutely false. These Federal agents
were actually brought in to the State of Minnesota for a very
specific operation to remove illegal alien criminals. It was
not because of the fraud. That is being handled under a
completely different agency, and ICE, and everything else. That
is the U.S. District Attorney, okay? Did you know that?
Reverend Tollgaard. The Administration has linked all of
these things together.
Mr. Crane. Well, they have linked the fact that you guys
supported an open border that let in $15 to $20 million. And
some of the fallout from that is fraud, like the $9 billion we
are talking about today. Some of it are the rapists, the
gangsters, you know, the people that are committing fraud. They
are burglarizing people. They are carjacking people. It is all
kind of linked together. It is also linked to the SAVE Act,
which many of you guys and my Democrat colleagues do not want
to vote for, even though 83 percent of Americans support it. It
is all linked together, but that is not what this operation was
about. So, you are bearing false witness in this hearing today
because that is not what that operation was about at all.
Reverend Tollgaard. What I am here to talk about is the
suffering of Minnesotans at the hands of Federal agents,
including children and their parents, and the great devastation
and harm that it has caused across our state and across our
wonderful communities.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Mr. Chair, he is over his time.
Mr. Crane. Have you spoken out about Laken Riley or any of
the American victims that have been raped, murdered, or killed
by these illegal aliens, Reverend? I did not think so. I yield
back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Now, the Chair
recognizes Mr. Min from California.
Mr. Min. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for convening in this
hearing. Let us start at the outset by just stating the
obvious: waste, fraud, and abuse are horrible. They are
stealing from taxpayers. They are taking money and food out of
the mouths of hungry kids. I have spent my career fighting
against fraud. I started my career at the SEC, prosecuting
corporate fraud, continued on as a law professor, teaching the
next generation. And as someone on the Oversight Committee,
this is a very, very important issue to me. Again, every dollar
that is stolen from these programs is a dollar that is not just
taken from us hardworking taxpayers, it is something that is
meant for a better use.
And so, I appreciate the gist of this hearing, but as I
have pointed out in prior hearings on allegations of fraud in
Minnesota, the singular and exclusive focus on the Somalian
community in Minnesota seems very partisan and wrong because we
know there is massive fraud across this country, particularly
in southern states, including states like Florida and
Mississippi. Mississippi is still at trial right now over $77
million in welfare fraud. Federal prosecutors have recently
arrested a Russian national accused of submitting billions of
dollars in fraudulent schemes in Texas and Florida. And of
course, Oklahoma and Alabama consistently rank as the highest
states when it comes to SNAP fraud, and yet we have only
focused on Minnesota. Why?
As a freshman Member, I have been here 14 months, but I
have learned that the House Republicans are all single-issue
voters with just a handful of exceptions, and that single
issue, the only thing that you all care about is whether you
are on Team Trump or not. And so, when Donald Trump goes after
Minnesota and falsely claims that he won the election there
three times and that it was rigged against him, I pay close
attention. When he says that he would no longer admit Somalians
to this country because they contribute ``nothing to this
country,'' I listen. That is a wildly racist statement, but it
is going to reflect what Republicans are going to do, and that
is why we are holding this hearing.
I care about welfare fraud, and I care about the scumbags
who rip off taxpayer money, but if this was about welfare
fraud, we would be also hauling in people like Mississippi
Governor Tate Reeves and former NFL quarterback, Brett Favre,
who clearly knew about his scheme to send money to build a
volleyball facility at the college where his daughter was
playing at, receive funds for $600,000 or more for work that he
never did from the government, again, taking money from the
mouths of children that are hungry.
No, this hearing is not about welfare fraud. It is about
placating Donald Trump. This Committee is holding this hearing
for the same reasons that it is ignoring the massive corruption
we know that Donald Trump is engaged in with his family,
soliciting bribes from foreign governments and private
companies in exchange for regulatory favor; for the same reason
that Republicans are protecting pedophiles right now and that
the DOJ is right now actively deleting Epstein files while we
are at war with Iran. It is why they ignore their oath to
support and defend the Constitution of the United States. It is
why we are holding hearings on this rather than on ICE abuses
or the fact that Donald Trump just took us into war without
even consulting with Congress, let alone getting our
authorization for military use or force or actual declaration
of war, in direct contravention of the Constitution of the
United States.
But for those of us who care about taxpayer dollars, let us
focus on that. This is horrible, but of course we have seen,
instead, a different type of abuse of our taxpayer dollars.
They have taken our taxpayer dollars and used them to fund
abuses against our American people, as a number of our
witnesses have aptly described. And I want to just point out
that until the murder of Alex Pretti, not a single DHS or ICE
agent accused of wrongdoing, witnessed or videotaped assaulting
Americans, was suspended, faced any disciplinary action. That
does not happen with police. When my local law enforcement are
accused of misconduct, certainly if they are videotaped
shooting someone, they are subject to investigation. Maybe they
are justified or not, but they are suspended, removed from
duty, investigated. None of that has happened until the murder
of Alex Pretti and the outrage around that.
Now, Governor Walz, I want to just briefly ask you, what is
the economic impact that deployment of ICE in Minnesota's had
over the past few months?
Governor Walz. Well, thank you, Congressman. I thank you
for your characterization. I associate myself with you on fraud
is horrific. It is corrosive. It hurts those people that are
there, and taxpayers should demand accountability, and I think
that is what we are trying to take. The issue again?
Mr. Min. What is the economic impact? I know businesses
have----
Governor Walz. Well, for us we just had our economic
numbers, and I would tell people that we have to balance the
budget every year. Minnesota, we are AAA bond rated. That shows
up good. It does not account for what happened over the last
three months, and by estimates, the city of Minneapolis
estimates they lost $200 million alone, and I remind people,
you saw pictures of Minneapolis. This happened across the
state. Near my hometown of Mankato, Minnesota and St. Peter, we
saw a woman that was pulled over at gunpoint, a citizen. The
chilling effect it had: businesses going under, especially
immigrant-owned businesses, people who are here legally.
Mr. Min. Yes.
Governor Walz. Citizens, starting businesses, were shut
down.
Mr. Min. I am just going to reclaim my time to make one
final point here. I was at Minneapolis, had the chance to meet
with you and others. I also met with a number of local police
chiefs, and one of the things they told me, first, this is not
the first time ICE has operated in Minnesota, but in the past,
what is different about this time is that they did not
coordinate. They did not tell anyone.
Governor Walz. That is true.
Mr. Min. And that resulted in a lot of 9-1-1 calls because
when you see mass men jumping out of vans, pulling people out,
assaulting them, punching them in the head, as happens all the
time with ICE agents--and by the way, that is not a matter of
training, it is a matter of picking people who are predisposed
to violence--that costs our local police quite a lot of money.
It is one of the reasons I am going to be introducing the
RECOUP Act so that local jurisdictions are repaid for the funds
that they expend due to ICE misconduct. With that, I yield
back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Before I
recognize Ms. Boebert, Mr. Gill, I understand you have a UC?
Mr. Gill. Yep. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous
consent to enter into the record a letter from the America
First Policy Institute, dated March 3, 2026, which details
widespread and rampant fraud in Minnesota.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Boebert from Colorado.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to
summarize some of the things that have already been said here
today rather than ask these questions directly.
The Federal prosecutors that we have, have now charged
nearly 100 individuals across multiple Minnesota fraud schemes,
including Feeding Our Future and, related, Medicaid, daycare,
and autism programs, with 85 of those charged being of Somali
descent. Governor Walz, your Administration's Department of
Education and Department of Human Services failed to act on
multiple early fraud warnings about Feeding Our Future,
allowing the theft of at least $250 million in Federal child
nutrition funds that were supposed to feed hungry kids during
the COVID-19 pandemic.
Governor Walz, I would like to turn to the demographics and
policy choices that enabled this. Since you took office, the
Somali population in Minnesota has grown substantially.
Recently, Fox9 reported--the reporting puts the total over
107,000. Did your Administration's soft-on-immigration
policies, including expanded refugee programs and temporary
protected status, contribute to that rapid growth?
Governor Walz. I could not speak to why people moved to
Minnesota, other than it is a great place to live.
Ms. Boebert. It could be a sanctuary policy and refugee
programs and temporary protected statuses. According to the
Center for Immigration Studies' analysis of census data, 81
percent of Minnesota households headed by Somali immigrants
receive one or more forms of public assistance compared to just
21 percent of native-born Minnesotan households. Why is that
disparity so extreme under your watch, sir?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak specifically, Congresswomen,
but I would anticipate that new-generation immigrants, whether
they be Norwegian or whether they be Hmong or whether they be
Somali, probably on the front end as they are establishing home
ownership, education.
Ms. Boebert. I think we should be bringing folks to our
country that are going to contribute and not just siphon off of
the tax dollars of Americans.
Governor Walz. They are contributing.
Ms. Boebert. Governor Walz, yes or no, would stricter
vetting of immigrants and refugees have prevented many of these
fraudsters from entering our country in the first place?
Governor Walz. I would not have any way to know that.
Ms. Boebert. Do you agree with stricter vetting processes
for those who are coming to our country?
Governor Walz. I do not care where you are coming from. If
you commit fraud, you are going to jail in Minnesota. That is
what I care about, and that is what I am here for.
Ms. Boebert. Yes or no, should Somali immigrants or any
other immigrants who defraud American taxpayers and steal funds
intended for hungry children be deported immediately?
Governor Walz. That is a decision for the Federal
Government. You are responsible for immigration.
Ms. Boebert. Governor Walz, do you know who Victoria Eileen
Harwell is?
Governor Walz. I do not believe I do.
Ms. Boebert. What about America Mafalda Thayer, or Thayer?
Governor Walz. I do not believe I do.
Ms. Boebert. These are Minnesota women who were brutally
killed by illegal aliens in your state. You do not know who
they are, so I would also assume that you did not attend their
vigils or speak out to their families when they were brutally
killed by illegal aliens in your state?
Governor Walz. I am not familiar with both of these, no,
Congresswomen.
Ms. Boebert. No. Just the hard-hitting CNN ones. Yes or no,
would you support ending Minnesota's sanctuary policies to stop
these fraudsters and murderers from using your state as a safe
haven?
Governor Walz. Well, as I said on June 12, we do not have
sanctuary policies, and Tom Homan reiterated that here in the
past few weeks that we do not either, and that we are
cooperating----
Ms. Boebert. Will you direct----
Governor Walz [continuing]. As required.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Governor. Will you direct local law
enforcement to fully cooperate with ICE and Federal agents and
follow Federal immigration laws that are currently on the
books?
Governor Walz. They do. If they want to do more, they can,
but we have a floor that they have to, and that has been proven
time and time again in Minnesota over this. That is why they
are leaving because we had cooperated.
Ms. Boebert. Okay. Final question for you, Governor. There
are multiple documented reports of Somali immigrants entering
sham marriages, including siblings and close family members,
solely for immigration purposes. Are you aware of these
reports, and what, if anything, has your Administration done to
stop this kind of immigration fraud happening in your state?
Governor Walz. States are not responsible for immigration
screening, and I am not familiar with what you are referencing.
Ms. Boebert. You are responsible for any vetting
whatsoever?
Governor Walz. Federal Government.
Ms. Boebert. Okay. Well, this is happening under your
watch, and there is immigration fraud, so we will do everything
that we can, and hopefully, you allow your local law
enforcement officers to coordinate with Federal agents when we
are going after these immigration fraudsters. Thank you,
Governor.
Governor Walz. As we do.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Madam. The Chair now recognizes
Mr. Walkinshaw from Virginia.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, would
you agree that fraud is not a victimless crime?
Governor Walz. I would agree with that. It is not a
victimless crime.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, and it is my understanding that
in Minnesota, you as Governor, you do not have the unilateral
power to pardon those convicted of state crimes, but you and
Mr. Ellison, and I think one other person sit on a panel that
can issue pardons. Is that correct?
Governor Walz. Yes, with the Chief Justice of the Supreme
Court.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you. In your time on that panel, can
you recall ever pardoning an individual convicted of fraud?
Governor Walz. I cannot recall. I cannot state either way.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. Mr. Ellison, any recollection of
that?
Mr. Ellison. It is possible. I do not recall it, though.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. I am not sure if it is true in
Minnesota, but at the Federal level, if a convicted fraudster
is pardoned, that pardon can wipe out their obligation to pay
restitution to the victims.
[Photo]
Are any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? I
know you are far away. His name is Jason Galanis. Sound
familiar?
Governor Walz. I am not, Congressman.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Jason Galanis, according to the Federal
judge who sentenced him to 15 years in prison, is a serial
fraudster and a conman who defrauded a pension fund in a
Native-American tribe of $80 million. I will put it in simpler
terms: he stole money from retirees. Do any of our witnesses
know what Federal prison Mr. Galanis is being held in?
Governor Walz. I do not, Congressman.
Mr. Walkinshaw. He is not, because President Trump, our
fraudster in chief, the namesake of the fraudulent Trump
University, the fraudulent Trump Foundation, the fraudulent
Trump Organization, pardoned him and relieved him of the
requirement to pay restitution to his victims. A Member of this
Committee, Mr. Jordan, recommended to President Trump that he
be pardoned.
[Photo]
Any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? His
name is Jeremy Hutchinson.
Governor Walz. I am not, Congressman.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Mr. Hutchinson is a former Arkansas State
Senator, Republican, convicted of a multimillion-dollar public
corruption scheme: embezzlement, bribes, illegal campaign
contributions, conspiracy to commit bribery--Mr. Homan might
know something about that--for passing legislation that
benefited an orthodontist who was paying him off. President
Trump's Department of Justice in his first term prosecuted him.
A judge sentenced him to eight years in prison and ordered him
to pay $355,000 in restitution to his victims. Any of our
witnesses know where Mr. Hutchinson is serving that sentence
today?
Mr. Ellison. I have a guess.
Governor Walz. I have a guess, too.
Mr. Walkinshaw. He is not serving a sentence because
President Trump pardoned him, relieving him of his restitution
obligation: a corrupt politician, prosecuted by Trump's Justice
Department in the first term, pardoned by Trump in this term.
Trump has pardoned fraudster after fraudster, denying victims--
we talked about victims--taxpayers, senior citizens, children,
the restitution they deserve, $1.3 billion. That is the total
that Trump's pardon fraudsters have been relieved of paying
their victims. The Chairman called this hearing because he is
concerned about fraud, about accountability. I share those
concerns, but where is the hearing on the $1.3 billion Trump
has relieved his pardon fraudsters from paying their victims?
Do those victims get a voice in this Congress? There is a lot
of outrage today, raised voices on both sides. Will we raise
our voices on behalf of those who have been victimized by
President Trump's pardon fraudsters?
Governor Walz, what signal would it send if you and
Attorney General Ellison and the judge who sit on this panel
were to pardon some of the fraudsters who have committed this
fraud in Minnesota? What signal would that send? What impact
could that have?
Governor Walz. Congressman, I believe it would send a
signal that we do not take it seriously because you have to put
these people in jail, and they have to serve their lengthy
sentences, and they have to do restitution.
Mr. Walkinshaw. And just hypothetically here, if you were
to pardon one of those individuals, how would you explain it to
the victims of that fraud--the taxpayers across the country,
those individuals who did not get access to the social services
they need because the money was stolen. How would you explain
it to them?
Governor Walz. I do not believe I could.
Mr. Walkinshaw. I do not think you could either.
Mr. Ellison. May I share, Congressman----
Mr. Walkinshaw. Please.
Mr. Ellison [continuing]. That, generally, when people get
any kind of a part in Minnesota, they have done all their
sentence, and Governor Walz is very careful to say have you
paid every penny you owe people. So, that is kind of how we do
pardons in Minnesota.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Well, these folks have not paid their
pennies, $1.3 billion worth of pennies.
Chairman Comer. Would the gentleman yield a question?
Mr. Walkinshaw. My time has expired, Mr. Chairman, so it is
your time.
Chairman Comer. I will give you more time if you want.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Sure.
Chairman Comer. I mean, you mentioned Jason Galanis, and
that piqued my interest, and I am sure it did Mr. Biggs' as
well, and you are correct. He did defraud an Indian or a
Native-American pension fund. Do you know who his partner was?
Mr. Walkinshaw. I know all the background of it. The point
is he stole money from people.
Chairman Comer. All right. Would you state who his partner
was? It was Hunter Biden, and Jason Galanis served in prison
for how long, Mr. Biggs?
Mr. Walkinshaw. Two years.
Mr. Biggs. No, that is incorrect. That is false.
Chairman Comer. No, he served in prison years.
Mr. Biggs. Many years.
Chairman Comer. And they were equal partners, and Galanis
blew the whistle during our Biden investigation, and he was
raped. He was raped in prison right after that, so I mean.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Will the victims of his fraud get their
money back? Why did President Trump----
Chairman Comer. Well, I do not know. Maybe ask Hunter
Biden. You all defended----
Mr. Walkinshaw. Ask President Trump.
Chairman Comer. But you were not here. You were not here.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Ask President Trump.
Chairman Comer. In your defense, you were not here during
Biden presidency.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Ask President Trump to get the victims
their money back.
Chairman Comer. You have been here about three months, but
you know more than anybody about everything, so the Chairman--
--
Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. So, the Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs from
Arizona.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I am glad you
brought it up because of the ten partners in that fraud that
you mentioned, nine of them went to prison. Do you know who the
one partner was that did not go? Your buddy, Hunter Biden.
That is right. Hunter Biden did not go, and by the way, you
must not have been here. I do not think you were here when I
introduced all these documents earlier, before I had to leave
to go to Judiciary, talking about, of the 1,500 criminals
pardoned by Joe Biden in one week, two dozen of them were
fraudsters that had hundreds of millions of dollars of
restitution forgiven by Joe Biden.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. Biggs. No, I am going to go now to Mr. Ellison.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. Biggs. No. No, I have had enough of you. Let us talk to
Mr. Ellison. Mr. Ellison, isn't it true that when you were a
Member of Congress, you sponsored the Money Remittances
Improvement Act of 2014? It was H.R. 4386. Do you remember
that?
Mr. Ellison. Congressman, I think that it is accurate.
Mr. Biggs. Yes. I mean, I get you. We all introduced lots
of bills, but that bill's purpose was to give more authority to
states to investigate remittance payments. Do you remember
that?
Mr. Ellison. Congressman, I believe that the purpose of
that bill was to facilitate financial transactions for
Minnesotans who needed them.
Mr. Biggs. Well, in reality, you shifted remittance payment
investigations to the states, and that was supported by the
Somali American Remittances Association. You may not remember
that, but that was.
Mr. Ellison. Congressman, could you remind me, did that
bill ever pass?
Mr. Biggs. H.R. 4386. So, it was supported by Somali
American Resistance Association, and it was so important to you
that you said, ``This is a great day for diaspora communities
around the country, including the Somali and Hmong
communities.'' And that is something you said, and we know that
the Somali population in Minnesota supported that bill. That
bill was passed, I believe, in 2014. Minnesota started
identifying large numbers of remittances payments going
overseas. And isn't it true that within four years of the bill
passing, more than $100 million had been flown out of the
Minneapolis Airport by Somalians? Do you know that?
Mr. Ellison. I do not have the information on that, sir.
Mr. Biggs. And over the last two years, the TSA has
identified over $700 million being flown out and linked to
Somali travel. Are you familiar with that?
Mr. Ellison. No, sir, I do not have the data on that.
Mr. Biggs. Under your tenure as the AG, the amount of
remittance payments going to Somalia, which, by the way, some
estimates as high as 40 percent of all Somalia's GDP comes from
those remittance payments, and roughly the same number, 40
percent of families in Somalia receive some economic benefit
directly from remittance payments. So, moving from that, do you
know Salim Said?
Mr. Ellison. That name is not familiar to me, sir.
Mr. Biggs. Ikran Mohamud?
Mr. Ellison. No.
Mr. Biggs. Abshir Omar?
Mr. Ellison. No.
Mr. Biggs. Okay. So, in 2021, you met with a group of
Somali's business people. Those three people were there. Safari
Restaurant, Partners In Quality Care, also known as Parties in
Nutrition, some of their named partners, and Feeding Our Future
representatives, including Abshir Omar, who said they were
having difficulties because they were being investigated and
that conduct is very racist, xenophobic, and Islamophobic. Do
you remember that meeting?
Mr. Ellison. Yes, I do, and I will tell you that these are
people who were fraudsters. They lied to me, they lied to the
judge----
Mr. Biggs. Yep.
Mr. Ellison [continuing]. They lied to state agencies, and
that is why we contributed to them being convicted.
Mr. Biggs. Well, let us go on from that because you may not
remember some of the things you said to them specifically, and
maybe we should play this video. Do we have the video queued
up? If we have the video queued up, that is fine. Let us do it.
[Video shown.]
Mr. Biggs. Because what you thought was terrible there was
that these people were being investigated for fraud----
Mr. Ellison. That----
Mr. Biggs [continuing]. And you later took $10,000 in
campaign donations from these same individuals. Do you remember
that?
Mr. Ellison. I would disagree with that characterization
entirely, sir.
Mr. Biggs. I am sure you would----
Mr. Ellison. No, what I was----
Mr. Biggs [continuing]. Because it is surely uncomfortable
for you, but you took $10,000 from those same people----
Mr. Ellison. No, that----
Mr. Biggs [continuing]. That were ostensibly supposed to be
investigated, yes.
Mr. Ellison. No, that is actually inaccurate, sir.
Mr. Biggs. No, it is not inaccurate.
Mr. Ellison. It is. First of all----
Mr. Biggs. You are entitled to say it is inaccurate, but
the facts are the facts, and my time has expired, Mr. Chairman,
but I do have some UC requests.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ``Minnesota AG, Who
Took $10,000 From Convicted Scammers, Dismisses Fraud Scandal
as Political Theater.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. ``Amy Bach Alleges Governor Tim Walz, Attorney
General Keith Ellison, Knew of Minnesota Fraud.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. ``Walz and Omar Using ICE Operations to Distract
From Fraud Scandal.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. ``Tim Walz Accused Of Stonewalling Key Probe as
Somali Fraud Sweeps His State.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. ``Conservatives Blast Dems, Walz for Likening
ICE Agents to Nazi Police Force.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. ``Tim Walz Urges Minnesotans to Resist Federal
Occupation.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. ``Tim Walz Was a COVID-19 Tyrant.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. ``Anti-ICE Agitators Set Up Blockade on
Minneapolis Street to Check Drivers' License Plates.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Biggs. ``Minnesota Attorney General's Legal Opinion
Could Threaten Some County Agreements With ICE.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Biggs. ``ICE Restricted From Minneapolis-Owned Parking
Areas Under Mayor Frey Orders;'' ``Minnesota Mom Jailed Over
COVID Accuses Walz of Tyranny;'' ``Minnesota Grandma Jailed for
Defying Walz COVID Lockdown Order Warns `You Do Not Want
Tyranny at This Level;' '' and ``Mother Ponders.'' And that is
all.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Pressley from Massachusetts.
Ms. Pressley. I have been in Congress now for almost eight
years, and one of the most meaningful moments that I
experienced here was in the Committee on Oversight and Reform
[sic] under the great chairman, Elijah Cummings. It was the
first hearing to take place, that I introduced in the House of
Representatives, on the epidemic that is childhood trauma.
Though I represent the Massachusetts 7th, one throughline has
remained true in my travels and conversations, from
Massachusetts to Minnesota, to Illinois to Texas, and it is the
devastating impacts of Trump's terror campaign on our Nation's
children. This Administration's policies, including, but
certainly not limited to, Operation Metro Surge, in my opinion,
I would characterize as child abuse, child neglect, and
inflicting childhood trauma. We are experiencing in real time
the compounded adultifying of our children where, increasingly
so, a childhood is a privilege instead of a right.
I am reminded of a conversation I had recently at the
airport where a dad approached me to talk about his 6-year-old
son who returned home from school, pleading and begging for his
parents to give safe haven to his classmate, his best friend,
for fear that if they did not do that, that he would be
deported. No child should have those concerns or carry that
heavy burden, but this is the reality for our Nation's children
under Donald Trump's America. Frederick Douglass said it is
easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. We
are certainly not building strong children.
In my district, the Massachusetts 7th, Alaini was only two
weeks old when her father was wrongfully taken by ICE, a trauma
that she will carry for the rest of her life. Again, so far, I
am speaking about the pleas of a 6-year-old, and policy,
rather, the family separation of a 2-week old. In Minnesota,
Liam Ramos was only at the age of five years old, was detained
by ICE and sent to Texas, and he will carry that trauma for the
rest of his life. There are the children that are directly
impacted, then there is that secondary trauma for those who
have borne witness. While in Minnesota, I met with parents who
have had to establish parental patrols armed with whistles and
orange vests and their cameras to try to keep their children
safe. Green Street Elementary, it was just across the street
from one of the murders that occurred in broad daylight under
Operation Metro Surge.
Around the country, the children of Renee Good, Keith
Porter, Geraldo Campos, and dozens of other children whose
parents were killed by ICE agents will carry that trauma the
rest of their lives, trauma in their bodies, their classrooms,
their sleep. It shows up in the ways they cling to their
parents at school drop-off and the silence of a child who used
to speak freely, in nightmares that no child should be visited
by.
Governor Walz, as a former educator and coach, you worked
closely with young people experiencing traumatic events. What
effect does this have on them, their classmates, and community,
and you heard from mental health professionals or pediatric
providers about how this is showing up in your state?
Governor Walz. No. Well, thank you for the question,
Congresswoman. First of all, I would say when I talk about
Minnesota being one of the best states, if we are not first, it
is usually because Massachusetts is, and I note that it is true
because you care about this. And you mentioned it correctly,
this is generational trauma that has been inflicted, whether it
is learning loss that has happened or the trauma we have seen
amongst our children.
I say that as an educator, as Governor, of the deep
concern, but as a parent of seeing this, what has happened to
our children. We know that mental health issues will start to
show up. We know that we will see educational loss, and those
have generational impacts on our economy and everything else.
But I will note your colleague mentioned me being a tyrant
during COVID. We had some of the lowest deaths due to COVID.
Tyrant looks like children being drug from their parents, old
people being drug out of their house without warrants, two dead
on the streets. And your point, the world saw a piece of it on
TV. I can tell you, none of us are going to be the same,
Congresswoman. We are going to deal with this, and we are going
to put money into social service programs to address it while
we tighten up fraud protections because the idea is, is you
have all these generous programs. Yes, and our people are
healthier. Our people are more educated. Our economy is
stronger. So, thank you.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you. I asked unanimous consent to enter
into the record a February 2026 article from Heckinger Report
titled, ``Parental Stress, Raids, and Isolation''----
Chairman Comer. Without----
Ms. Pressley [continuing]. ``How Immigration Enforcement
Traumatizes Even the Youngest Children.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Pressley. You know, as I close, I have always taken
issue with the myth that children are resilient. It is
something that people say because I guess it brings them
comfort, the false notion that if you hurt kids, they will
automatically heal. It allows policymakers to inflict harm and
then to look away.
But children are not collateral for reckless and godless
policies, and they should not be ignored. Rather, we should
center children to understand the impacts of all these
policies, and Governor Walz, with these remaining seconds----
Chairman Comer. I am sorry, ma'am. Your time has expired.
Ms. Pressley. Okay. Well, I yield.
Chairman Comer. All right. Thank you. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Sessions from Texas.
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. To my two
former colleagues, I would welcome you back, and I know that
this is something that is not as easily done, and I recognize
that. I want to thank our Methodist preacher for being here.
I want to put in some context what you have heard today,
and that is, probably to both of you, not a lot has changed up
here. We are still trying to play the gotcha game. People are
trying to do their job. That is what we are trying to do here.
We come back and talk about children, yet we forget that
President Biden, President Obama had tens of thousands, 800,000
children, that were lost by them that President Trump is still
trying to find. We talk about not trusting ICE, which is a
Federal component, and yet the Boston bombers caused chaos. I
cannot imagine why we would not want to form up a relationship
instead of saying ICE is no good, we do not want you. It is the
Federal component.
So, with all that said, in fairness to each of you, you
have heard what we have said today, so I would ask you,
Governor, and then I will say it right up front. I was kind of
hoping that you might show up, or both of you might show up,
because the Methodist preacher is here and say we did not do
everything right. We think there were a lot of things done
wrong. We think we want to learn. We come and ask that you
understand that this is something that happened in our midst.
My Methodist preacher--I am a global Methodist--my
Methodist preacher meets with me pretty often and makes sure
that he knows and I know, I look for balance, I look for
fairness, I look for objectivity, and I know you have not been
placed in a very good position now, but I got 3 minutes left.
Governor, what did we do wrong here? How do you want to set
that record straight because, otherwise, it is going to be a he
said/he said against you guys.
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Sessions. And I want you to tell me, where did we get
it wrong on this side?
Governor Walz. Well, Congressman, I appreciate that, and I
do say----
Mr. Sessions. And you and I are friends.
Governor Walz. We are, and I have said it publicly before.
We disagreed on some issues, but we had a lot of conversations
on the Floor. Look, I think I agree with you. As Governor, I
have taken accountability for this. I am not going to run
again. I need to spend the time fixing this. This does
undermine trusting government. Do I wish there were things that
could have happened earlier? Yes, but in this job, wish did not
do it. I am looking into where I see it. I can tell you this,
Congressman, that the safeguards we are putting in place are
going to make a difference. I think other states can use them.
I think one of the things is, I asked, in the helping in
the partnership piece of this, understanding that this happens
in all states. I am certainly not proud this happened. I
certainly understand it happened on my watch. Whether it
predated me or not, I am here. I think some of the things is
there are some legal changes we need around Medicaid
eligibility issues that you are talking about that actually
might get at this. Because I would hope, Congressman, you and I
agree, these programs are valuable and they need to go to the
people who need them, and we need to stop the fraud that is in
there, and I am trying to explain to you what we did from the
beginning. These people continue to be a moving target, and
they are very sophisticated.
Mr. Sessions. Is there still a problem?
Governor Walz. Is there still fraud happening?
Mr. Sessions. Is there still a problem, and we will say in
Minnesota. I know we are not going to----
Governor Walz. I think there is more work to be done, yes,
I will tell you that.
Mr. Sessions. Okay.
Governor Walz. And we are working on it. I have a package
that I introduced last week. One of the things that I think is
going to be helpful, and I know you are working on it up here,
is the ability to use AI. It is the pre-screening. What you do
not want to hear from us is, and I do not want to hear, that we
are arresting people after they did it. We need to stop it
before it happened.
Mr. Sessions. I agree with some of that.
Governor Walz. We are moving upstream.
Mr. Sessions. We do need to arrest them, however.
Governor Walz. We do, we do, but if we are just
continuously chasing our tails, it is like I said, if you
arrest one part----
Mr. Sessions. Well, I would like to keep working with you
because we have got to stop this, and so if you could----
Governor Walz. I would welcome that.
Mr. Sessions. If you would you put together a list that we
can send to other Governors and say, here is what we did.
Governor Walz. That is fantastic.
Mr. Sessions. General?
Mr. Ellison. Congressman Sessions, let me just say thank
you for your question. I absolutely think there is more that
all of us can do to protect the public dollar and get the money
where it was intended to go. There are all kind of ways to make
sure that----
Mr. Sessions. Yes, but we are talking about the lessons
learned.
Mr. Ellison. Right.
Mr. Sessions. Are you going to show up today, as the
Governor did, and say we made a mistake, I owe an apology to
people, we believe that what you have tried to do today to
defend? I am not trying to put you in a corner, General. I am
trying to get you----
Mr. Ellison. I am going to answer.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Because we are sitting here
trying to get to where we are going to go.
Mr. Ellison. I can assure you, Congressman, that I am here
to work to improve this system, and there are improvements that
can be made, and your offer to work on a bipartisan basis to
solve this fraud crisis, I am all in. And if we can get out of
fixing the blame and get to fixing the problem, that would be
an enormous thing for me, and I thank you for asking.
Mr. Sessions. Well, it is my hope that you will know that
being here today, we are doing our job, other people are doing
their job, but we have got to get to where we can then say, and
here is the problem and we will take--so, the Governor did--I
accept responsibility and let us get on to fixing this because
tomorrow is a new day. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the time.
Chairman Comer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions. I yield back my time.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes my friend,
Ms. Talib.
Ms. Tlaib. He says that, but then he cuts me off. Thank you
all for coming here. I think it is really important, and, you
know, Reverend, I can tell that you care deeply about your
community, and it takes courage to come before this Committee,
especially when you hear so much, to me, just misinformation
also embedded in racist tropes about your community. And so, I
wanted to ask you, you know, I think a lot of Americans, we
think about what compelled you to speak out and join hundreds
of other faith leaders at the St. Paul Airport to protest
against the violent ICE occupation of your community?
Reverend Tollgaard. Thank you for the question. Yes, I am
here just as I was that day at the airport because I am
representative of so many Minnesotans who are actively engaged
in the work of neighboring. And I am also here, as I was that
day, because there are so many Minnesotans for whom it is not
safe to speak out today.
Ms. Tlaib. And I will tell you, you know, we are learning a
lot. I think the whole country is learning a lot from all of
you and your neighboring, and showing love and showing up for
your community. And I know it took a lot of courage for even
some of the elected officials to stand up and say, you know,
not on our watch. You know, we talk about the fearlessness that
is needed sometimes to fight for our rights, and some people
will continue to gaslight folks and call us domestic terrorists
to surveil us more, to try to bully us and intimidate us to
silence. And I just want the Minnesota people to know, I know
my district sees you all and we say continue it. You are
freeing all of us when you continue to speak up, and you are
protecting all of us as well.
In response to, of course, the powerful local resistance,
you know, one of the things they keep saying is it is ended, it
is done. You heard my colleague from Boston, Congresswoman
Ayanna Pressley, talk about trauma. It is not done. There needs
to be a lot of healing, and I do not think they want to fund
that or support that, but I am asking just as myself and many
of us in my district are wondering, is it truthful? Are they
done?
Reverend Tollgaard. Unfortunately, it is not over. As we
heard, there are still 650 ICE agents in Minnesota. That means
there is still fear and trauma for our children and for our
immigrant and refugee neighbors. And as Ms. Pressley named, the
trauma will go on, and we have much work to do in healing and
caring for, especially those who have been most victimized in
this.
Ms. Tlaib. So, I want to talk about intention. What is the
intent of this hearing? What is the intent of all of it? I
think intention is important because, you know, for the
Chairman, if I can submit for the record article titled,
``Fraud Focus: Why is Trump Granting Clemency to Convicted
Fraudsters?''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Tlaib. Because I see this, and even though you are
here, you have nothing to hide, these folks are not here. I do
not get to question them. I do not get to say to the guy that
committed $200 million Medicare fraud who just got pardoned by
Trump. I do not get ask Jared Kushner, you know, why does your
dad go from, literally, in France, the title of the article is,
``Prison to Paris.'' Literally, from committing fraud, he
pardons his son-in-law's father, and now he is an ambassador.
You see all that happening, it is like, well, what is the
intention here? They are creating a world's largest
paramilitary under the direct control of the President, who has
made it clear that he intends to crush dissent, to crush
dissent, target entire cities, and rig elections. He literally
is telling us he is going to send ICE agents out on Election
Day to intimidate and target our community. He is not lying, he
is going to do it, and I think we need to be very, very much
prepared.
At the same time, intention. Governor, seeing him and this
Administration funding freeze and blaming all of these people.
Like, I hope people do not blame my community for everything
Trump's doing. Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean, can you
imagine right now the impact of this happening? I mean, what
impact is it going to really have right now? I mean, you are
talking about, today, this is cutoff, and he is refusing to let
go of the money that, again, Minnesota actually is supposed to
rightfully get appropriated.
Governor Walz. Four hundred thousand children lose
healthcare. Pregnant women and elderly and rural hospitals will
be severely impacted and potentially close.
Ms. Tlaib. It is hard because I wonder if they would do
that in Kentucky where they have fraud, in Tennessee where they
have fraud.
Governor Walz. Their own numbers show that our error rate
is 2.1 percent. The national average is 6 percent.
Ms. Tlaib. Oh, I know. You guys testified about it.
Attorney General, even though--you know, you gave everybody
else 30 seconds--I need to ask you, I mean, you are here today.
What could you be doing right now? You are Attorney General.
Today, if you were at work instead of here, to be honest, I
mean, can you explain what is back home that you have work to
do at home? Like, what can you be doing instead?
Mr. Ellison. [Off mic.]
Chairman Comer. Microphone, please.
Mr. Ellison. One thing I have is a Medicaid fraud bill that
I am trying to get passed to increase----
Ms. Tlaib. The legislature is in session.
Mr. Ellison. The legislature is in session, and I am
supposed to meet with House caucus leaders tonight--hoping to
make that so that we can do more to stop fraud.
Ms. Tlaib. Yes.
Mr. Ellison. So, that is one thing I could be doing among
20 others.
Ms. Tlaib. Well, I will tell you, you know, I am always
reminded, and please bear with me, Chairman Comer. Our amazing,
you know, former Chair, Elijah Cummings, first hearing I ever
had as a freshman was on the high cost of prescription drugs.
It was incredible, it was powerful, it was real, and the intent
there was, let us make sure people that get sick are taken care
of. I am just so tired of these hearings that are just
politicized in a way that is not consistent because if he is
doing this, why are you targeting innocent people? Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Mr. Tlaib. I gave you an extra
minute and 15 seconds to criticize the Chairman of the
Committee, so, but I do like Ms. Tlaib. The Chair recognizes
Mr. Gill from Texas.
Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
witnesses for taking the time to be here. Governor Walz, are
you familiar with the early intensive developmental and
behavioral intervention benefit?
Governor Walz. I am, Congressman.
Mr. Gill. Got it. It provides services for autism patients.
Is that right?
Governor Walz. That is correct.
Mr. Gill. Got it, and when did you become Governor?
Governor Walz. In January 2019.
Mr. Gill. In 2019, okay. So, using 2018 as a baseline, do
you know what that program paid in Medicaid claims?
Governor Walz. I do not, Congressman.
Mr. Gill. It is about $671,000. Do you know what that
program paid in Medicaid claims in 2024?
Governor Walz. I do not have the number in front of me.
Mr. Gill. Three hundred forty-two million dollars. That is
about a 500x increase over six years. Was there 500 times the
number of autism patients in that time period?
Governor Walz. I could not speak specifically to it, but I
will say, Congressman, that----
Mr. Gill. That does not sound reasonable, right?
Governor Walz. Right.
Mr. Gill. You do not think there was a 500x increase in the
number of autism patients----
Governor Walz. No, I think----
Mr. Gill [continuing]. In six years, right?
Governor Walz. Correct, and that is why we ordered onsite
visits starting back in 2024.
Mr. Gill. So, we agree that that does not sound reasonable.
Would you also agree that a single taxpayer dollar wasted on
fraud is a dollar too much to tolerate?
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Gill. Yep, and would you agree that as Governor,
ultimately you are responsible if tax dollars are defrauded?
Governor Walz. Yes, I would agree.
Mr. Gill. Yep. Would you also agree that calling somebody
racist is a serious accusation?
Governor Walz. If they are racist? I think it is probably
accurate.
Mr. Gill. I am asking you, is that a serious accusation to
make about somebody?
Governor Walz. I think it is just an observation of
reality.
Mr. Gill. All right. Well, let us go there. Is it racist
for a government official to identify fraud?
Governor Walz. No.
Mr. Gill. No. Is it Islamophobic?
Governor Walz. To identify fraud?
Mr. Gill. To identify fraud?
Governor Walz. No, I do not believe it would be.
Mr. Gill. How come multiple whistleblowers have said that
your Administration told them not to say anything about
widespread fraud across multiple agencies because doing so
would be considered racist or Islamophobic?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to it because it is not
anything I would say.
Mr. Gill. Well, that is what your Administration has said
and has told whistleblowers, and as you just testified, the
buck stops with you. It is what you stated in your statement
whenever you announced you were not running again. Are you
familiar with Faye Bernstein?
Governor Walz. Yes, I am familiar with the name.
Mr. Gill. She is a Democrat, isn't she?
Governor Walz. I would not know that.
Mr. Gill. She stated publicly that she is a Democrat. She
has only voted Democrat in her life. She has also stated
publicly that she was retaliated against and called racist, and
that her work responsibilities were diminished whenever she was
highlighting fraud within your Administration. Are you familiar
with that? Why do you think she would----
Governor Walz. I could not speak to specific allegations.
Mr. Gill. Why do you think she would say that?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak for what she would think.
Mr. Gill. You have no idea?
Governor Walz. I do not.
Mr. Gill. You would agree that the tone in your
Administration comes from you ultimately, right?
Governor Walz. The tone is that----
Mr. Gill. The tone of how you might deal with
whistleblowers.
Governor Walz. Right, and we protect them, and they----
Mr. Gill. It does not sound like you are protecting them.
We heard from Representative Kristen Robbins, ``We have dozens
of credible whistleblower reports saying the exact same thing,
that people were told not to say anything because they would be
called racist or Islamophobic, or it would hurt the state.'' Do
you think it is racist or Islamophobic to highlight and try to
stop fraud?
Governor Walz. It is not, and I certainly would not----
Mr. Gill. It is not, but that was the message your
Administration was sending to multiple whistleblowers.
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to that.
Mr. Gill. You cannot speak to that. No, you do not want to
speak to that, I think. Should whistleblowers----
Governor Walz. I have over 40,000 employees, Congressman.
Mr. Gill [continuing]. Be retaliated against?
Governor Walz. Pardon me?
Mr. Gill. Do you think whistleblowers should be retaliated
against?
Governor Walz. Absolutely not. They have strong protections
in Minnesota and lots of pass, and the pass----
Mr. Gill. That is not what we are hearing from
whistleblowers. Faye Bernstein, who, again, has stated that she
is a Democrat, she has only ever voted Democrat, says that she
was----
Governor Walz. That does not matter whether she is Democrat
or Republican.
Mr. Gill [continuing]. Says that she was subjected to ``a
smear campaign'' for trying to make leadership aware of illegal
contracting practices. Why do you think that happened?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to that, Congressman, because
we do not do it, and it is----
Mr. Gill. You do not know anything?
Governor Walz. I do know that we have strong whistleblower
protections, and I cannot speak to this specific----
Mr. Gill. That is not what the whistleblowers are saying.
According to another report, ``There is just a continuous
effort to stifle you to shut you up, and it is impossible to
overcome.'' Your Administration's response to whistleblowers
has also been described as ``nearly unbearable retaliation.''
We have heard claims that ``they have been denied vacations,
promotions, and that it has hurt people's careers to speak out
against fraud.'' Do you think that that had something to do
with the prevalence of fraud in your Administration?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to it, but it does not
happen.
Mr. Gill. Are you going to take responsibility for this?
Governor Walz. I supervise 40,000 employees. State agencies
have their own----
Mr. Gill. You supervise a lot of employees, and as you have
said, the buck stops with you, and your Administration has
treated whistleblowers like absolute dirt, and that is a big
reason why we have seen so much of our hard-earned tax dollars
defrauded.
Governor Walz. Look, Congressman, I told you we have strong
protections. We have an office of Legislative Auditor.
Mr. Gill. This Committee has spoken to nearly 30
whistleblowers----
Governor Walz. And they came through the----
Mr. Gill [continuing]. Most of which are current employees
in your Administration, who have intimate knowledge of what has
been going on, who have all stated that they have faced
retaliation for calling out fraud.
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to them and what they felt.
Mr. Gill. My time is up. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Ansari.
Ms. Ansari. Mr. Chairman, it is outrageous that this is
what we are choosing to spend our time on the Oversight
Committee. At the first one----
Chairman Comer. Fraud? Fraud?
Ms. Ansari. At the first one, yes, fraud, because let us
talk about fraud.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Ms. Ansari. At the first one of these ridiculous series of
hearings on Minnesota, I brought up the dozens of horrific
ongoing corruption scandals in the Trump Administration, but I
know you are very scared of Donald Trump, so we will not be
talking about those, but those are the things that we should be
investigating on the Oversight Committee. Now we have another
one. The Department of Justice was caught red-handed
withholding explosive and credible FBI witness interviews of a
woman who accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her when
she was a minor. Shouldn't we hold a hearing on that? Shouldn't
Pam Bondi be here, forced to testify why she is violating the
law that Congress passed, The Epstein Files Transparency Act,
nearly unanimously, along with this Committee subpoena? But
since the Republican Majority instead wants to have a
conversation about Minnesota, then let us do that.
The Trump-Epstein regime's deployment of thousands of ICE
agents, Donald Trump's personal secret police force is a
fascist disgrace. These untrained agents terrorized the people
of Minnesota, violated their rights, and even shot them dead in
the streets. I want to remind us all about what happened to
Alex Pretti, an intensive care nurse murdered by CBP agents
while trying to protect a woman that the officers were
assaulting.
After his murder, Stephen Miller said Alex was ``a domestic
terrorist'' who ``tried to assassinate Federal law
enforcement,'' a ``would be-assassin,'' and ``an assassin.''
Kristi Noem said Alex was ``committing an act of domestic
terrorism.'' She said, ``I do not know any peaceful protester
that shows up with a gun and ammunition rather than a sign.''
She accused Alex Pretti of brandishing a weapon, despite video
evidence showing the gun never left its holster. Greg Bavino
said, ``This looks like a situation where an individual wanted
to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement,'' and Donald
Trump, said Alex, ``A gunman whose weapon was loaded with two
additional full magazines and ready to go.'' He said Alex was
an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist, obviously
projecting about himself. Dictators in other countries would
literally be impressed at how brazen these lies and propaganda
spread by the Trump regime and Kristi Noem are.
So, Governor Walz, I want to thank you and Attorney General
Ellison for putting up with all of the lying and hypocrisy from
the Republican Majority. Governor, is the Trump Administration
attempting to block Minnesota State and local police from
investigating the murders of Alex Pretti and Rene Nicole Good?
Governor Walz. I believe we are not getting any
cooperation, and we were told we would not be part of that.
Attorney General may know more.
Mr. Ellison. Yes, Congresswoman. We have been told that we
would not have access to investigative file, which would
include evidence that would be relevant to the investigation in
both cases. And even there is one shooting incident that was
nonfatal, and we have been frozen out on that as well.
Ms. Ansari. So, two follow-up questions.
Mr. Ellison. We had to go to court to get the evidence
preserved, yes.
Ms. Ansari. Okay, and two followup questions and whichever
one of you wants to answer, why do you think that might be the
case, and is this out of the ordinary?
Mr. Ellison. It is wildly out of the ordinary. I can tell
you that our local FBI, ATF, even before Operation Metro Surge,
you know, you heard about ICE matters, but you did not hear
about it nearly as much as we do now. This is an extraordinary
departure from what we know, and we routinely work with Federal
partners and we have never had problems until now, like this.
Governor Walz. I would just speculate that they need to
take accountability for it, and I think they understood what
the world saw, that this was improper and it needs to have
justice for these families, and I hope those questions are
being asked of Secretary Noem today.
Ms. Ansari. And Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison,
are you committed to getting to the truth about the murders of
Alex Pretti and Renee Good?
Mr. Ellison. Absolutely, yes.
Governor Walz. Yes. I pledged to their families we would do
that.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you. We need to hold this Administration
accountable for these murders, starting by impeaching Kristi
Noem for gross misconduct, lying to Congress, and failure to
uphold the laws in the Constitution. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Grothman from
Wisconsin.
Mr. Grothman. Thank you. We will go for Governor Walz
again. A major focus of today's hearing has been the misuse of
Federal funds distributed through the Childcare and Development
Block Grant. This program is supposed to be helping working
families afford childcare, and I think the taxpayers expect
these programs to be protected from waste and fraud. Most
states operate these programs responsibly. The national
improper payment average is about 4 percent. As you know, I
kind of watch what is going on in Minnesota because it is a
state adjacent to Wisconsin, and it is amazing if you are a
Congressman the number of people who get Minnesota and
Wisconsin confused. But when that number climbs above the
national average of 4 percent, it should be a warning sign that
oversight has failed.
Minnesota's improper payment rate got up to 11 percent.
That is not a small administrative mistake--over almost three
times the national average. That is a system that is clearly
not being monitored the way it should be. When Wisconsin had a
similar program several years ago when I was in the state
legislature, in 2010, we uncovered fraud in our childcare
assistance program. Wisconsin did not look away. We took
responsibility, implemented serious reforms, and those reforms
included expanding background checks for providers, creating a
dedicated fraud investigation unit, strengthening eligibility
requirements, and instituting a comprehensive audit system.
That would have been when Scott Walker was Governor. Because of
these reforms, Wisconsin now has an improper payment of under
one percent, so in other words, we almost totally wiped out the
problem. It did not happen by accident. It happened because
Governor Walker took responsibility and acted quickly. He
thought fraud was a problem.
Governor Walz, Minnesota had similar warning signs.
Investigators, auditors, even internal officials kept raising
concerns about fraud in social service systems, and it did not
just cost taxpayers money. These programs are meant to help
children and working families. When fraud drains millions of
these dollars from these programs, that money is not reaching
the people it was intended to serve. First of all, Governor
Walz, when did your Administration first become aware that
fraud risks were escalating in Minnesota's Childcare Assistance
Program? You were kind of an outlier in the whole country.
Governor Walz. Well, thank you, Congressman. This dates
back to about 2012, that the action has been being taken. And
as I stated earlier, on our first days in office, we started
taking action. I would ask, if I could, on this, anything that
Governor Walker did, I would appreciate if you would show us
what those actions were. We are more than happy to implement
them, and that is what we have started over the last seven
years.
Mr. Grothman. Reports indicate that some providers
continued receiving payments even after the fraud concerns were
raised. Was that a decision made by your Administration, and
who specifically you feel did not----
Governor Walz. I cannot speak specifically to which those
were. Decisions are made at the department level, but I cannot
speak to what those allegations were.
Mr. Grothman. We are told it was still 11 percent under
your Administration. When fraud indicators appear in a program
funded by Federal taxpayers, do you believe the responsible
action is to pause payments until those concerns are
investigated?
Governor Walz. I do not think it is that simple. As I said,
these programs provide a really important service, and
childcare is a critical one. The issue is trying to make sure
the legitimate payments are made and that you are stopping
fraud, so I do not think in all cases that pausing those
payments is the right action.
Mr. Grothman. Okay. Just in general, I will say when the
fraud percentage beats 11 percent in Minnesota and we got it
down under one percent in Wisconsin, I think it is a cause for
concern. I will give you another question because a little bit
of this hearing wandered a little bit to what happened in your
streets out there. When any agency comes to Wisconsin, any
Federal agency--I have talked to several of our sheriffs, could
be ICE, could be Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms,
could be FBI, could be Secret Service--our sheriffs always try
to coordinate with the Federal agencies, ask them what they
need. Do you need us to set up a perimeter? Can we help you by
transporting people to the local jail? Do you just want some
squad cars parked around to presumably keep troublemakers at
bay? That was not done in Minnesota like it is routinely done
in certainly all----
Governor Walz. I do not think that is a correct
characterization. I think Tom Homan indicated that those things
do happen and have been happening.
Mr. Grothman. During the time in which you had the serious
riots or whatever you want to call them in Minnesota, I believe
that you did not reach out for your state law enforcement to
help out Federal law enforcement, in part because you are a
sanctuary state and----
Governor Walz. That is incorrect. Tom Homan indicated we
are not. I do not know what to tell you, Congressman. We did.
We want to cooperate. That is not what you saw on the streets.
Mr. Grothman. Right. Right. We did not see cooperation.
Governor Walz. You saw ICE agents shooting people in the
head. You saw little children being drug out. You saw ICE
agents indiscriminately throwing smoke grenades. And I think
what the world saw was peaceful resistance and a defense of
their neighbors, so this is not about immigration reform. This
was about an untrained force that came in, not with the
intention of immigration.
Mr. Grothman. I would say that you did not have the
interaction between local law enforcement and Federal agencies
that is routinely seen around the country. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes Ms. Brown.
Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thirteen months.
Thirteen months into the Trump's Administration, and this
Committee has failed to hold one hearing or one open
investigation to hold this President accountable. It makes you
wonder, are we the Oversight Committee or the Overlook
Committee because there is no shortage of matters that demand
our attention. I can share a few that come to mind.
This is a President who has turned the White House into an
ATM, and in Trump's Washington, the fastest path to a pardon or
a position is to donate to Trump's ballroom or Inauguration.
Last year, the Trump family added billions to its net worth
through pay-for-play schemes and corrupt deals. Last month, the
President surged ICE into Minneapolis in an abusive operation
that led to American deaths and repeated violations of
constitutional rights under the First, Fourth, and Fifth
Amendments. Also last month, the Administration struck shady
oil deals after the Administration invaded Venezuela.
Two weeks ago, the President blocked a Michigan bridge from
opening after he was reportedly lobbied by a wealthy
businessman who owns a competing bridge. Last week, the
President launched a war on Iran without the consent of
Congress, without an imminent threat to our safety, and without
any plan presented to the American people. And right now, hour
by hour, this Administration is engaging in an active and
egregious coverup of the Epstein files.
Yet today, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are
once again showing they are more interested in partisan
politics than good governance. If you are serious about fraud,
you investigate it, you prosecute it, you strengthen safeguards
to prevent it. What you do not do is weaponize it. You do not
denigrate entire communities with racist smears. You do not
unleash abusive enforcement actions that undermine trust and
due process. You do not illegally cutoff all Medicaid funding,
which will lead to innocent and sick Americans dying. Dying.
And you do not fire Inspector Generals [sic] and push out
career prosecutors actively working to defeat that fraud.
So, AG Ellison, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Minnesota has
at least six prosecutors resign due to the chaos ICE has cause.
Can you briefly describe how these resignations have affected
our ability to prosecute fraud?
Mr. Ellison. Thank you, Congresswoman, and, in fact, it is
a great deal more than six prosecutors. It is many more than
that. In fact, one of the prosecutors who resigned in protest
was one of the ones who helped to lead the prosecution of the
Feeding Our Future defendants. Fifty-seven have been convicted.
So, the loss of those people is dramatically harming our effort
to prosecute fraud because in Minnesota, we have 87 county
attorneys, the AG does Medicaid fraud, and the Federal
Government prosecutes fraud that is germane in its
jurisdiction. It operates as a web together, so it is not like
the feds are doing it and nobody else is. They are doing the
ones they supposed to do, we are doing the ones we supposed to
do, and the counties are doing the ones they supposed to do.
If you take the feds out, that leaves an enormous gap, and
criminals are shrewd. I mean, the reality is that fraudsters
are pretty smart, and some of them are clever and know that if
the prosecutors numbers are depleted, you are going to see
worse behavior. And I do fear that, which is one of the reasons
why we need to pass stronger legislation in Minnesota to help
my office prosecute Medicaid fraud.
Ms. Brown. Thank you, and there is deeper hypocrisy here.
Donald Trump was found guilty by a jury of his peers on 34
felony counts of fraud. He has pardoned a businessman convicted
of defrauding a Native-American tribe to the tune of $60
million. He has pardoned a Florida CEO convicted of running
$1.3 billion Medicare and Medicaid fraud scheme. He has
pardoned a nursing home executive who pleaded guilty to a $38
million tax scheme. I could go on and on. In fact, over half of
the President's pardons have been for wire fraud, securities
fraud, tax fraud, bank fraud, and healthcare fraud, and several
of these pardons have come after massive political
contributions to the President. In many cases, these pardons
meant victims will never see a dime of restitution. House
Judiciary Committee Democrats estimate the pardons for fraud-
related crimes could deprive victims of more than $1 billion
owed to them and American taxpayers. So, this President is
pardoning his wealthy donors and taking money out of the
pockets of hardworking Americans. He is handing out get-out-of-
jail-free cards to fraudsters while shamelessly using fraud as
a pretext to go after perceived political enemies.
What I believe is simple. Whether you are a President, a
billionaire, or a regular American who has committed fraud, you
should be held accountable, and with that, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Palmer from Alabama.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this
hearing. I appreciate the witnesses being here. I do want to
respond to something that was said earlier by one of my
colleagues across the aisle about fraud in Alabama, and he
actually raised the question why isn't the Governor of Alabama
here? It is very simple. Alabama actually did something about
the fraud in SNAP benefits. We acted on that immediately. I
would argue that if the State of Minnesota had done that, this
hearing would not be necessary.
So, I want to ask you, Governor Walz, is it true that your
Department of Education was sued by Feeding Our Future for
racial discrimination in approving food sites?
Governor Walz. I do not know exactly what they were sued
for, but I know there was a suit.
Mr. Palmer. Didn't the Department of Education have serious
concerns about fraud, though, in Feeding Our Future and their
sites as far back as 2020?
Governor Walz. That is correct, Congressman. They brought
it to the attention of the USDA.
Mr. Palmer. And didn't your Department of Education
determine there was fraud occurring because of incredibly
large, implausible reimbursement request?
Governor Walz. Well, I think at the time during the COVID
pandemic, there was how these meals were being delivered and
what safeguards--because as you know, the USDA changed the
rules on these to make it easier for food to get out.
Mr. Palmer. Yes, but one of the fraudster sites, Safari
Restaurant, claimed that they served the same number of meals
in one month as the entire St. Paul School District. In their
transcribed interview, your Commissioner of Education said that
this would be impossible. Governor Walz, you were an educator.
Is it plausible for a single restaurant, whose owner has
already been convicted and is in jail for fraud, was actually
serving that number of meals?
Governor Walz. I think that is why he went to prison, if I
am not mistaken.
Mr. Palmer. Yes, but the question would be, why didn't the
State of Minnesota--wasn't that a Federal conviction?
Governor Walz. It was turned over by the state. It was the
state that found it. The folks at the Department of Education
turned it over with our Federal partners, and they prosecuted
them.
Mr. Palmer. Well, when we had the hearing with the state
legislators, I mean, without exception, they all testified that
they were bringing this to the attention of the state, and the
state was not doing anything about it.
Governor Walz. Those legislators run the Committee, the
oversight Committee. They never held a single hearing until
just very recently, and the chairwoman of that Committee is
running for Governor. So, I cannot speak to why, but I can tell
you that we certainly tried to address----
Mr. Palmer. But you cannot politicize something that was
reported years ago. I mean, you could argue that she
anticipated that you would resign or retire, or however you
want to characterize it, but I doubt that was the case. I want
to be as respectful as I can be, and, you know, we have served
together. I am not one of these guys that is trying to score
political points. I try to solve problems, but I do not think
we can have a transference here of intention for one legislator
that you say is running for Governor when these issues were
raised years ago.
Governor Walz. And prosecuted years ago.
Mr. Palmer. Well, not all of them because the fraud
continued, and it has run into the billions of dollars now. I
mean, the two people that were convicted in Federal Court, that
was $250 million, but we now know that this has gone into the
billions, and the question--and, again----
Governor Walz. Congressman, can you tell me where the
evidence is on the $9 billion because we are looking for it and
we are doing what we can. I mean, all the local press and all
the folks in Minnesota are saying that is not the case. You
know, every dollar you put out there, if you say it could be
fraud, but there is no evidence to that. And the problem with
that is, and this story came out last week, people in the U.S.
Attorney's Office said, when you are putting out these numbers
that are not true, it undermines our ability to tackle the
actual fraud.
Mr. Palmer. I did not say $9 billion. I said that I think
it is run into the billions, and that is not just in Minnesota.
Again, during COVID, the fraud was massive throughout the
country----
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Palmer [continuing]. Particularly in the Payroll
Protection Plan and the enhanced unemployment. I think it begs
the question, Mr. Chairman, of why we have not been more
aggressive in going after this all over the country. The fraud
that was mentioned by my colleague was SNAP benefits, and that
is in California, his own state. It is $180 million, but to
California's credit, they are doing something about it. So,
that is the issue here. I am not interested in scoring
political points. I am trying to stop the fraud.
Governor Walz. I appreciate that, Congressman.
Mr. Palmer. I am trying to get to a place where the public,
in terms of state and Federal spending, has confidence that we
are properly managing the money and, wherever fraud occurs,
that we are aggressively pursuing it. I think that is the
question that has been raised about how your Administration
handled this. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Governor Walz. But I would just say that is fair enough,
Congressman. I think that spirit is what we are trying to get
at. I do think it is nationwide. I think we should share
information. I think we are being as aggressive as possible,
but fair enough.
Ms. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I would like to seek recognition
for a unanimous consent request. I ask unanimous consent to
enter into the record a June 17, 2025, memorandum from the
House Judiciary Committee Democrats titled, ``House Judiciary
Committee Democrats Memorandum Regarding President Trump's
Pardons Cheat Victims Out of an Astounding $1.3 Billion in
Restitution And Fines, Allowing Fraudsters, Tax Evaders, Drug
Traffickers To Keep Ill-Gotten Gains,'' which estimates the----
Chairman Comer. That----
Ms. Brown. I am sorry--``Which Estimates That Trump's
Reckless Pardons Robbed Victims and Let Perpetrators Walk Away
Without Paying $1.3 Million in Restitution Funds.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Brown. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Stansbury from New
Mexico.
Ms. Stansbury. Good morning. Good afternoon, as it is. Mr.
Chairman, thank you for having this hearing. I know has been a
long morning for everyone here as witnesses today, and it has
been a long several months for the people of Minnesota. We
thank you for your service.
Now, let me just start by saying at the beginning of my
comments here what I said at the beginning of the last hearing
that we had on this exact same subject, which is that we must
unequivocally root out waste, fraud, and abuse, and prosecute
any crimes wherever they happen, whether those crimes are
happening in social service programs at the state level, or
whether we have an out-of-control President and Administration
that is committing crimes, waste, fraud, and abuse inside the
White House and within our Federal agencies, including
deploying thousands of armed agents into our communities, using
per diems that are costing millions of taxpayer dollars every
day, to terrorize our communities, to violate their civil
rights, to violate due process rights, and that have resulted
in the murder of two U.S. citizens.
And so, my question is, why are we not conducting oversight
over that? Two U.S. citizens that have been murdered by the
Federal Government.
[Photo]
Renee Good, a Minneapolis mom, murdered.
[Photo]
Alex Pretti, a Minneapolis VA nurse murdered.
[Photo]
Nurul Amin Shah Alam, a partially blind refugee in Buffalo,
New York dead after being left in a parking lot by DHS without
even a pair of shoes on.
[Photo]
The kidnapping of children like Liam Ramos.
[Photo]
And an Administration that has launched an unauthorized war
in the Middle East with six service members dead and over 160
school children and their teachers dead and buried yesterday.
Never in my life have I seen a greater disregard for the
Constitution, for the rule of law, for the carelessness for
human life and basic human dignity, and senseless cruelty than
I have seen in this Administration, whether that is at home or
abroad, and they cannot answer the most basic questions about
why.
[Photo]
And meanwhile, people who should be investigating these
crimes are partying and drinking on taxpayer dollars.
[Photo]
We have got the U.S. DOJ AG refusing to release the Epstein
files or even acknowledge their basic human dignity.
[Photo]
And yesterday, the Secretary of DHS testifying and lying
under oath in the U.S. Senate, refusing to acknowledge Alex
Pretti and Renee Nicole Good's death, its murder, and the harm
that she personally has caused by calling it domestic
terrorism. That is what we should be investigating and the
billions of taxpayer dollars that are being used to support
this cruelty and out-of-control Administration.
Now, I know it has been a long day, and, Mr. Ellison, I
know you have had a long day especially. I want to say thank
you for your service, Governor. You have inspired the Nation by
helping to organize, along with the faith community, our
communities in resistance, in strength. And I agree with you,
Reverend, that silence is complicity, and that is why we have
to speak. And so, Mr. Ellison, I just want to ask you one
question. What do you think Congress should be investigating?
What should we be investigating here today?
Mr. Ellison. Congresswoman, I would be very grateful if the
Committee really dug into the use of force policy at ICE. I
think it needs greater training. I think it needs, clearly,
better guidelines. I think there needs to be a policy of
cooperation between state and Federal investigators and in the
FBI. And I think there should be a general policy that leaders
not make statements about blame or guilt, you know, immediately
after the tragedy, and they should try to wait and figure out
what actually happened before they make those kind of
statements that you identified.
Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, AG, and I will just say this. I
have heard a lot of political theater here today. I think it is
disgraceful. Our job is the Oversight Committee. Our job is to
oversee the Administration and the agencies that it executes
on, and we are failing the American people, and this
Administration is failing the world. With that, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. I might add
that it is my understanding the Homeland Security Committee is
investigating the two deaths in Minnesota. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Fallon from Texas.
Mr. Fallon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz, do you
believe the 70,000 strong Somali community as a whole has made
a positive impact on your state?
Governor Walz. I do.
Mr. Fallon. So, you would be of the opinion and fair to say
that the Somali community has successfully assimilated and is
making Minnesota better?
Governor Walz. Yes. I believe they are on that path, yes.
Mr. Fallon. I am just curious by what metric you would come
to that conclusion. I just looked at some hard data, and do you
have any idea what percentage of the native-born Minnesotans,
all races, live in poverty in your state right now?
Governor Walz. I do not have specifically percent.
Mr. Fallon. I will share it with you. It is 8 percent. For
the Somali community, it is 52 percent. How about receiving
food stamps?
Governor Walz. I do not----
Mr. Fallon. All right. I will run it down with you. It is 7
percent, and then compared to 54 percent in the Somali
community. And then do not have at least a high school diploma,
for all Minnesotans, it is 5 percent, Somali community, it is
39 percent. One family member at least on Medicaid, it is 18
percent from Minnesota, 73 percent for the Somali community.
And receiving welfare of some form, it is 21 percent, and it is
81 percent for the Somali community. Governor, do you happen to
know what the percentage is of all those who have currently
been charged in this staggering social services fraud scheme
were native-born Minnesotans? What percentage?
Governor Walz. I do not have that.
Mr. Fallon. I think it was 85 out of 98, which comes out to
13 percent Minnesotan and 87 percent Somali/Minnesotan. So, I
think this is an instance perhaps of where woke gets slapped by
data. Governor, there has been billions stolen over 7-plus
years right under your nose, and, really, there are only two
explanations. It is either you were in on it, or you were not
smart enough to see it. It is either criminal negligence or
wild incompetence. And the only way this kind of fraud can
reach this scale is if there are people in power that are
colluding and collaborating and willfully blinding themselves
to the realities around them.
And in Oversight, when we do investigations, it is rare for
us to have whistleblowers because they face retribution and
punishment and resentment, and they can be ostracized, and it
is difficult and it is uncomfortable, and sometimes it is even
dangerous. So, when we are having an investigation and we have
even a couple of whistleblowers, it is very valuable to us
because they provide invaluable insight. Do you have any idea
how many whistleblowers from Minnesota or working with the
Oversight Committee?
Governor Walz. I do not. We have our own strong protections
on the OLA, the independent----
Mr. Fallon. Well, it is 30. I mean, I have not seen that in
5-plus years in Congress. Thirty. Governor, on September 16,
2025, did you announce your reelection bid?
Governor Walz. Pardon me?
Mr. Fallon. On September 16, last year, did you announce
it?
Governor Walz. I do not know the exact date.
Mr. Fallon. In September, roughly the fall of last year----
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Fallon [continuing]. Did you announce you are running
for Governor again?
Governor Walz. I believe that is correct.
Mr. Fallon. Okay, and I think you said in your quote here,
``We have made historic progress, but we are not done yet,''
and then just 3-and-a-half months later on January 5, you
dropped out. I got to ask you why. I mean, were you tired of
making historic progress?
Governor Walz. No, Congressman, I think I have done the job
for two terms and talking with my family, and I said I want to
focus on doing the job, not running.
Mr. Fallon. It did not have anything to do with this epic,
historic, awful fraud.
Governor Walz. It has everything to do with trying to do
the job right for Minnesota.
Mr. Fallon. The facts are your leadership and really your
lack of leadership has been responsible for one of the largest
ripoffs of the American taxpayer in our history. And you
traded, I believe, the currency of political expediency for
your integrity. And, you know, Mr. Chairman, I do not know if
you know this, but it is been widely reported that in 2008,
when Barack Obama was choosing his Vice Presidential candidate,
he had three criteria. He wanted to make sure he picked
somebody that was not as smart as him, and had less talent and
charisma, and could not possibly outshine him, so he picked Joe
Biden, and then Joe Biden in 2020 used the exact same criteria.
He wanted to make sure he picked somebody who was not as smart
as him, had less talent and charisma, and would not outshine
him, and he picked Kamala Harris. And then in 2024, Governor, I
think it is very evident why Kamala Harris picked you. The
talent pool, Mr. Chairman----
Governor Walz. I would not know, Congressman.
Mr. Fallon. Mr. Chairman, the talent pool is not just
shallow. Brother, we have hit the shore, and I yield back.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Comer. The gentlemen yields back. The Chair
recognized Mr. Subramanyam.
Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, I have some
concerns about not just the tactics of ICE in Minnesota and
everywhere. I have concerns about the fact that Renee Good and
Alex Pretti were killed, and there has been no real
investigation by Federal law enforcement and Federal
authorities. And so, I would ask Attorney General Ellison, do
you know if the FBI is actually investigating what happened?
Mr. Ellison. Thank you for the question, Congressman. The
information we have is that there was an affirmative statement
by Deputy AG Todd Blanche that they were not investigating the
Renee Good matter. On the Alex Pretti, we received information
that was similar and that there might be an investigation, but
that the state would be excluded. So, in the first one, they
are not doing an investigation and we cannot have the
information. In the second one, they might be doing an
investigation, and the state cannot be part of it.
Mr. Subramanyam. And I know this is asking for your
opinion, but why do you think they would want to exclude the
state in the Alex Pretti investigation?
Mr. Ellison. Well, you know, I do not want to speculate as
to what somebody's motives might be, but I can just tell you
this. It is a sharp departure from the norm. Normally, we
investigate these things jointly, and when somebody does not
want another investigator there, sometimes you might wonder if
there is something that they do not want to come out.
Mr. Subramanyam. It is my understanding that the Federal
Government is better positioned to do such an investigation and
to be able to prosecute such crimes because there might be
Federal immunity. It is my understanding Federal agents are
typically immune from state prosecution if their actions were
directly tied to official duties. What is your understanding of
that?
Mr. Ellison. So, my understanding starts with the supremacy
clause in the U.S. Constitution, and then there is a line of
cases. The first one is something called In re Neagle, and then
there are a number of cases after that. What it says is that if
a Federal agent arguably commits a crime and is indicted or
charged, that agent, the Federal agent, would have an
affirmative defense of saying that I was doing my job and I was
doing it in a necessary and proper way, what I was doing was
necessary and proper. If they can meet both of those criteria,
a court might grant their motion to dismiss. If they cannot,
the matter is going to face a jury. Matter of fact, you may
remember the case involving Randy Weaver in Idaho. That case
actually was cleared by the Ninth Circuit to go to trial, but
the local authorities decided not to pursue it.
Mr. Subramanyam. To prosecute Renee Good and Alex Pretti,
you would need evidence, right?
Mr. Ellison. Yes.
Mr. Subramanyam. Has the FBI or anyone given you or been
able to cooperate with you on any evidence in this case?
Mr. Ellison. No. At this point, they have precluded the
state from access to the evidence, but there is a lot of other
evidence out there, and we are also pursuing all options to get
access to the evidence.
Mr. Subramanyam. Do you think with what you have now, you
could prosecute Renee Good and Alex Pretti at the state level?
Mr. Ellison. I think, theoretically, it is possible, but I
would think it would be imprudent until you see the Federal
file because, you know, when you are a prosecutor, you should
know the whole file. You should have evaluated all the evidence
before you make a charging decision or bring a matter to the
grand jury.
Mr. Subramanyam. Because my concern here is that not only
are these terrible things happening to U.S. citizens, but there
is no accountability, right? There is no mechanism. There is a
coverup for the people who are at ICE and other law enforcement
who do the wrong thing, and it is making everyone at those
agencies look bad. It is making our country look bad on the
international stage. And so, you know, we have legislation at
the Federal level. I am a co-sponsor of the Stop Excessive
Force in Immigration Act. We are trying to do things tangibly
to make things better. We need some support on the other side
of the aisle, but certainly we are going to push forward
anyway. I guess I would end by saying, what would you ask
Congress to do to help get the accountability that we are
looking for, and I will ask either one.
Mr. Ellison. I think that for anyone, Republican or
Democrat, hoping to get public trust restored to immigration
agents, there must be clear protocols regarding recruitment,
training, and protocols on use of force. There must be an
investigation, states must be involved, and there is more to be
discussed.
Mr. Subramanyam. Governor Walz, you have 5 seconds.
Governor Walz. I would agree with the Attorney General that
it is about restoring faith, that people do not trust what they
are doing, and we need them to be able to do their job.
Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. I will now
recognize Mr. Burlison from Missouri and then Mr. Timmons from
South Carolina.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz, we
already know that the Minnesota Medical Assistance gives
taxpayer dollars to people that are not here legally, illegal
aliens, and we know that, in large part, your sanctuary city
policies or sanctuary state policies have exacerbated the fraud
that we are seeing in Minnesota. We know that just from
conservative estimates alone, that during the Biden
Administration, we had an estimated 15 million people come here
illegally. Within your state alone, the estimates from the
Migration Institute and Pew Research is that it is at least
130,000 people that are here illegally, and we know that $250
million was stolen for the Feeding Our Future program. Are you
familiar with the fact that those working for the program and
individuals later convicted of fraudulent crimes met with Mr.
Ellison in the, what has been talked about, the recorded
conversation?
Governor Walz. I believe the Attorney General just
testified to that, yes.
Mr. Burlison. It was a 54-minute conversation, and in it
the conversation was recorded as an audio file. There was a
FOIA request to get that information. He can clearly be heard
pledging his support to individuals who would soon become his
family's campaign donors and later Feeding Our Future criminal
defendants. The ask occurs around minute 43:30. Specifically,
the request for him is, in the AG's statutory role as the
attorney for state agencies, to intervene on behalf of these
frauds. And at 44:26, Mr. Ellison assures the fraudsters, ``Of
course, I am here to help,'' and at 45-minute mark, he says,
``Let's go fight these people,'' these people, meaning the
agencies that were looking into the fraud. Have you listened to
this audio?
Governor Walz. Today was the first time I have heard it. I
am familiar with it, and I do not know if I can validate that
characterization.
Mr. Burlison. If this is true, do you have concerns?
Governor Walz. I am not going to speculate. Like I said, I
cannot characterize what it was.
Mr. Burlison. Certainly you have heard the allegations that
Mr. Ellison was working with individuals, that people were
trying to reach out to him to try to avoid any kind of
prosecution.
Governor Walz. I do not know if I would characterize it
like that. I could not do that.
Mr. Burlison. How would you characterize it?
Governor Walz. I do not know. I was not there. I just heard
the clip you had.
Mr. Burlison. How much fraudulent money has been recovered?
Governor Walz. Oh, I do not have the number in front of me,
but----
Mr. Burlison. I have heard the highest number is $80
million, but I mean----
Governor Walz. That could be. I cannot verify that.
Mr. Burlison. So, it is reported that, at most, it is $80
million. And as we know, the amount that has been attributed to
fraud in Minnesota alone is estimated, I think on the low end,
the conservative side is $9 billion. I think the Trump
Administration says $19 billion.
Governor Walz. Congressman, I do not see anything to show
that, but what I have acknowledged is one dollar is too much. I
think the local people and the folks who are taking count of
this show it just at about $271 million.
Mr. Burlison. Do you think the effort to return the money
has been successful?
Governor Walz. I cannot speak to that. I do not have any
part in that.
Mr. Burlison. I think that returning $80 million out of a,
let us say, assume it is just $9 billion, which would be .08
percent, less than 1 percent of the money has been gotten back.
Governor Walz. Congressman, no one is saying the $9
billion, other than a potential for that, and that would mean
every dollar that is out there, and I think that was
characterized last week by the U.S. Attorney's office as saying
that that caused problems because there is no evidence to back
that up. But I want to be clear. That does not make it any
better. I just want to be clear. I hear you----
Mr. Burlison. Right.
Governor Walz [continuing]. On the $300 million. I think it
is----
Mr. Burlison. Would you agree there is more work to do?
Governor Walz. More work to do.
Mr. Burlison. If you are at one percent or less than one
percent, there is more work to do.
Governor Walz. I think if it is 99 percent, there is more
work to do.
Mr. Burlison. Last week you stated to the press that you
have fired people who were not doing their jobs. Is that
correct?
Governor Walz. What I stated was, is that people have been
put into new positions.
Mr. Burlison. Okay.
Governor Walz. We removed people from positions.
Mr. Burlison. So, you did not fire anyone?
Governor Walz. People stepped away.
Mr. Burlison. People just shuffled the decks on the
Titanic.
Governor Walz. I think they left. They left state
government.
Mr. Burlison. Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Timmons and then McGuire.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
witnesses for being here today. Governor Walz, under your
leadership, Minnesota has become the poster boy of fraud in
America. Between the Feeding Our Future scheme and massive,
widespread fraud in autism and childcare programs, your tenure
will be defined by immense negligence, costing taxpayers at
least hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. In
2019, in the first months of your Administration, your
legislative auditor found serious weaknesses in the Childcare
Assistance Program, including inadequate attendance
verification, repeat bad actors cycling through the system,
weak enforcement, and employees who feared retaliation for
raising concerns. Those warnings were specific, they were
actionable, and they were documented, and you were already in
office at this time. If, as you say, the buck stops with you,
Governor, it is unclear when the buck actually stopped.
In your written testimony, you listed multiple actions you
have taken to curb fraud, yet clearly they were insufficient.
As Minnesota ended up with 14 Medicaid programs deemed high
risk, representing over $18 billion in spending. The buck did
not stop when whistleblowers were silenced years ago. It only
stopped when you realized the fraudsters were drawing attention
from people that you could not intimidate into silence. Fraud
of this magnitude does not happen overnight. It builds slowly,
and it is the result of institutional failures and poor
leadership. So, Governor, my question is simple. If the buck
stopped with you, as you said, who failed between 2019 and
2022, and why were they not held accountable?
Governor Walz. Who failed in what, Congressman?
Mr. Timmons. This fraud has been growing until recently----
Governor Walz. Well, this is the thing----
Mr. Timmons [continuing]. And you have been Governor for
many years.
Governor Walz. No. Well, thank you for the question,
Congressman, and I would disagree with your characterization,
obviously. And the legislative auditor, I do not know what the
time period they investigated. Those usually come months after
they did it. We took office in January 2019 and immediately
started acting on what the OLA, the Office of Legislative
Auditor, an independent branch, started asking us to do, where
we started changing the programs.
Mr. Timmons. That is not what the record reflects. The
record reflects that there were all of these whistleblowers and
they were being intimidated because alleged racism was the
motivation behind the degree of enforcement.
Governor Walz. Congressman, I have never had a chance to
speak to these folks. What I will say is that, and my time in
Congress proved that, strongest whistleblower protections we
can possibly have. We have plenty of opportunities.
Mr. Timmons. We are not talking to every other state. We
are talking to Minnesota because of the rampant fraud. So,
look, three members of the----
Governor Walz. Is there no fraud in any other states?
Mr. Timmons. Three members of the Minnesota State House of
Representatives who all served on the Fraud Prevention and
State Oversight Policy Committee, gave transcribed interviews
that confirmed that your Administration was aware of the fraud
happening in the state, yet chose not to act due to fear of
political repercussions, and intentionally silenced
whistleblowers who have tried to come forward.
Governor Walz. Well, that is incorrect.
Mr. Timmons. Mr. Chairman, I am going to enter this in the
record, ``Roadmap to Program Integrity and Fraud Prevention.''
It is a report, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Without objection.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This report relays that several current and former
Department of Human Services employees have described messaging
from DHS leadership that emphasize compassion over compliance.
So, the former leaders have said that DHS should be guided by
70 percent compassion and 30 percent compliance. And then in
2023, DHS, public presentation, leadership encouraged employees
to embrace a 60/40 mindset. Again, that is 60 percent
compassion and 40 percent compliance. I want to have as much
compassion for people that need social safety nets. Like, I
want to have a hundred percent compassion, but we also have to
have a hundred percent compliance----
Governor Walz. Right.
Mr. Timmons [continuing]. Or work as hard as we can to get
there. And as you sit here today and after acknowledging how
widespread and pervasive fraud is in Minnesota, how should your
state employees prioritize program compliance? What is your
message to people now relative to this compassion compliance
ratio?
Governor Walz. Well, I think I agree with you on this,
Congressman. I do not think it is an either/or choice. We are
not going to stop these programs. We are not going to stop
being the top state for children in the country, but we need to
make sure if we are going to continue those programs that we
need to have fraud prevention and program integrity in. So, I
agree with you. It is not an either/or, and it is not a
percentage.
Mr. Timmons. In order to give the benefits to the people
that need them most, we have to be good stewards of tax
dollars.
Governor Walz. That is right.
Mr. Timmons. And for every dollar that is stolen through
waste, fraud, and abuse, that is a dollar that cannot go to
people that need it most.
Governor Walz. I agree with you.
Mr. Timmons. So, we need to prioritize compliance, make
sure that we have the least amount of fraud possible, and with
that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
Governor Walz. I agree, Congressman.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Next is Mr.
McGuire from Virginia, then Mrs. Luna.
Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon to our
witnesses. Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, what
year were you made aware of rampant fraud in your state?
Governor Walz. Well, Congressman, I think----
Mr. McGuire. The Committee has spoken to nearly 30
whistleblowers, most of which are current employees in your
Administration. Based on these transcribed interviews, you were
both made aware of the rampant fraud in your state around 2019-
2020.
Governor Walz. Did they make the----
Mr. McGuire. Governor Walz, do you know who Janelle Sky
Hanson is?
Governor Walz. I do not. I was going to ask you----
Mr. McGuire. Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to
enter into the record article from CARE 11 titled, ``CARE 11
Investigates Evicted Homeless Paying the Price for Minnesota's
Fraud Crisis.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz,
Janelle Hansen, who goes by the name Sky, has autism. In June
2025, Sky, who was living in an apartment paid for by
Integrated Community Supports, was evicted by police because
her caregivers, American Home Healthcare, LLC, who were
subletting her apartment, stopped paying their rent. This
provider claimed to provide this woman with 12 hours of daily
individual services and billed ICS on an average of nearly
$12,000 a month when she only interacted with them two hours
per day. Because of this fraud, the woman has been homeless for
eight months. In fact, while Sky is homeless, the owner of
American Home Healthcare LLC lives in a high-end Maple Grove
home, which has an indoor basketball court. State Medicaid
billing data shows since 2022, American Home Healthcare has
been paid more than $2.2 million in public funds. That is $2.2
million that was taken fraudulently from the taxpayers to pay
for a man to live in a lavish home while people like Sky are
left to live on the street.
Governor Walz, this is despicable. You have a duty to serve
the Minnesotans, and you failed. You failed to protect these
individuals like Sky who needed it the most. I have had
constituents tell me that after seeing all the fraud that has
come to light in your state, that they are not sure if they are
paying taxes or if they are paying criminals.
Governor Walz, Attorney General Ellison, yes or no, does
your Administration take whistleblower report seriously? Yes or
no.
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. McGuire. Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison,
yes or no, do you believe that when faced with a whistleblower,
the correct course of action is to retaliate against them and
suppress their concerns?
Governor Walz. No, of course not. It is illegal to do so.
Mr. McGuire. Governor Walz, yes or no, are you aware of any
instances of employees in Minnesota's Department of Human
Services being threatened and intimidated with military
surveillance to ensure they stay quiet about fraud?
Governor Walz. I am not.
Mr. McGuire. This is a picture of an email from Emmanuel
Nowala, the DHS manager, who has since been promoted to the
leadership role. This email shows clear proof that threatened
employees with military surveillance including, ``I did
intelligence research with the Army and give them IP addresses
and email addresses to track specific locations.'' Governor
Walz, yes or no, are you aware of this email?
Governor Walz. I am not.
Mr. McGuire. Governor Walz, Mr. Nwala stated in the email
that he was asked by upper leadership to hold off as they are
doing their own thing on it. What did they mean by that?
Governor Walz. I could not say. I am unfamiliar with it.
Mr. McGuire. Was upper leadership doing their own military
surveillance on whistleblowers to intimidate employees and to
stay quiet about rampant fraud?
Governor Walz. I do not believe they would.
Mr. McGuire. Moving on. Governor Walz, yes or no, do you
agree that it would be intimidation to confront a whistleblower
with photographs of their car, their house, and monitor their
phone and computer, and ask which schools their children go to?
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. McGuire. Governor Walz, yes or no, did the DHS
investigators direct you to participate in these intimidation
attacks against whistleblowers?
Governor Walz. Could you restate the question, Congressman?
Mr. McGuire. Were you directed to intimidate these
whistleblowers?
Governor Walz. Of course not, no.
Mr. McGuire. Governor Walz, who is Shireen Gandhi?
Governor Walz. She is the current Commissioner of the
Department.
Mr. McGuire. In her transcribed interview, Ms. Gandhi
confirmed that DHS used outside entities to investigate DHS
staff. Governor Walz, I think it is clear to the American
people that your Administration did not take whistleblowers
seriously and, even further, cultivated an environment of fear
to intimidate employees from going public with the truth about
the rampant fraud in your state and under your failed
leadership. Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, your
incompetence and inaction to stop pervasive fraud when you were
first alerted not only defrauded taxpayers of $9 billion, but
you have also failed to protect those who truly needed these
services such as Sky. Because of your failed leadership, that
woman was evicted from her apartment and homeless on the street
for eight months. Leadership matters.
Now, Governor, you abandoned your troops before deployment,
right before they deployed. You told your law enforcement not
to cooperate with Federal agents, which led to a lot of the
problems in your state that you do not see happening around the
country, and you abandoned Minnesota by allowing this fraud to
continue. And so, I am so glad that you have decided not to
run----
Governor Walz. Congressman, that is untrue.
Mr. McGuire [continuing]. For reelection as Governor, and
with that, I yield back.
Governor Walz. Congressman, did you do 24 years in the
military, because I did. Was that not long enough for you?
Mrs. Luna. I am sorry. You are now interfering with my
time----
Chairman Comer. The Chair----
Mrs. Luna [continuing]. But as a veteran, he is a veteran,
too, I do not think that you need to compare service. No one is
discrediting your service, but I think they are discrediting
your ability to lead your state to protect against fraud, sir.
Governor Walz. My credit was being questioned, and I did
24----
Mrs. Luna. So, with that, Chairman, I would like to have my
time.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mrs. Luna from
Florida.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Governor Walz.
Governor Walz. Chairman, I would ask the ability to----
Mrs. Luna. My line of questioning is not for you. Please do
not interfere with the witness' time. It is for your Attorney
General.
Chairman Comer. He did not ask a question, so it is Mrs.
Luna's time.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to be
very clear about why we are here today and why both of you
should be concerned. I have already sent criminal referrals to
Attorney General Pam Bondi recommending that both Governor Walz
and Attorney General Ellison be investigated and prosecuted
under 18 U.S. Code 371 and 18 U.S. Code 2. The U.S. Attorney
Office estimates up to $9 billion in taxpayer money has been
stolen on your watch, Governor Walz. Not a rounding error, not
a typo, $9 billion, and both of you knew.
Mr. Ellison, there is a widely reported recording of a
meeting between you and Feeding Our Future on December 11,
2021. At that meeting, those individuals that you were speaking
to told you that the state investigators looking into fraud
were acting in a ``racist manner,'' and your response was, and
I am quoting directly from the recording, ``Let's just go fight
these people.'' I want to ask you, what do you mean by ``fight
these people?''
Mr. Ellison. Congresswoman, first of all, this matter I
have responded in writing to this Committee.
Mrs. Luna. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Ellison. I have written an op-ed about this matter. I
have gone through several committees, one in the state, one in
the Fed, one in the Senate----
Mrs. Luna. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Ellison [continuing]. Now here today, and it is very
clear that these people were clearly liars. They were lying to
me. They lied to judges. They lied to the state agencies. They
were fraudsters. Everyone agrees that they are fraudsters, and,
look----
Mrs. Luna. If I could, just because I limited on time,
though, I want to see, and I understand what you are stating.
You are saying that you were essentially lied to, but in
responding to them, and the reason I am questioning on this is
because I had the privilege of questioning some of your state
legislators that were Republicans, and they did feel that both
you and the Governor were covering up what was happening with
the fraud. So, I want to specifically, who were you referencing
when you said, ``fight these people?'' If you could, just keep
it short.
Mr. Ellison. Congresswoman----
Mrs. Luna. Was that your own state?
Mr. Ellison. Congresswoman, these people represented
themselves to be business people who were having difficulty
with the bureaucracy.
Mrs. Luna. Okay.
Mr. Ellison. They contacted me and they wanted to know, you
know, can you possibly help us. What I did is investigate their
claims and then worked with the Federal authorities to see 57
of them convicted of crimes----
Mrs. Luna. Okay.
Mr. Ellison [continuing]. And about, I think, more than 80
now indicted. So, these people presented themselves as someone
needing help and honest business people. They were not what
they claimed to be----
Mrs. Luna. Okay. So, just----
Mr. Ellison [continuing]. And we helped them get convicted
as they well should be.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you for clarifying, but just to be clear,
it would be the bureaucracy, would you say, within your own
state? You were saying fight these people as in the bureaucracy
within your own state, correct?
Mr. Ellison. Congresswoman, I was in Congress for 12 years.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you for serving in Congress.
Mr. Ellison. And I did constituent services all the time--
--
Mrs. Luna. Okay.
Mr. Ellison [continuing]. Working with people.
Mrs. Luna. So, I am not going to get anywhere on this
question. That brings me to my next thing. Do you believe that
it is racist to investigate someone of fraud because they are
of Somalian descent? Yes or no.
Mr. Ellison. Ma'am, I believe that anybody who commits
fraud of any background should be investigated and held
accountable.
Mrs. Luna. Okay. Well, I would actually agree with you on
that one, so thank you for clarifying. But to be clear, those
individuals that you told the Department of Human Services,
were basically, it was racist then if you were looking into it
for fraud, you took that meeting, you made that promise, and
then it turns out that the billions of dollars in fraud
continued. And I hate to bring this up because I am a parent,
but your own son also received donations from those same
individuals. Imam Omar, the man that invited you and is listed
a partial owner of an entity that was used to launder over $40
million in Feeding Our Future funds.
I would say that you did mislead the public. Whether or not
you, at the time, realized what they were up to, the fact is,
is that you were then presented with the evidence, and it does
feel, and according to your own state legislators, that you did
not take that seriously enough. In my opinion, if you have
that----
Mr. Ellison. I will disagree, ma'am.
Mrs. Luna. I am telling you what my opinion is. I do not
believe that that was a question, but I do believe, based on
the recording, based on the fact that you were personally tied
to it, and based on the fact that your family then had ties to
it as well, seems a little sus. Aside from that, though, you
are telling the American people, essentially, that maybe you
did not know about it when dozens of your own employees were
afraid being labeled as racist or Islamophobic if they stayed
silent. And so, I just want to be clear about something. You
stated and you agree that anyone should be investigated based
on, you know, regardless of their background, but the fact is
that your own employees came forward and were actually afraid
of actually looking into that fraud because they did not want
to be labeled as Islamophobic or as maybe as even xenophobic.
So, you dismissed this, as President Trump said, as
politicizing the issue when $9 billion is not a political
talking point. It is an embarrassment. The American people see
what is going on, and this is fraud. I would say, and I would
also advise the Attorney General to look into our criminal
referrals. I do not believe that you guys could say that you
did not know what was happening because, frankly, even if, let
us say, giving you the benefit of the doubt, you might not have
known, you guys still chose to turn a blind eye to it. Thank
you, Chairman. I yield my time.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back, and before I
recognize Mr. Langworthy, our last questioner, I want to say
Congressman Jack is on the Rules Committee, and everyone knows
that they put in long hours. He is actually managing the Floor.
If he does not make it back in time after Mr. Langworthy, I
want to put into the record Representative Jack is leading
debate on the Floor, but will submit his questions for the
record. So, with that, I recognize Mr. Langworthy from New
York.
Mr. Langworthy. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Governor, you have served as Governor of the State of Minnesota
for nearly seven years. Why did it take you until 2023 to
launch an investigation under an Inspector General into this
massive fraud that has been uncovered?
Governor Walz. I do not believe that timeline is correct,
Congressman. As I said, we were making changes, and this has
been being worked and these cases have been brought forward
years before.
Mr. Langworthy. But your Administration did hesitate for
years to fully investigate this fraud. Was it because you were
concerned about, you know, you are the de facto leader of the
Democratic Party of Minnesota as the Governor. Were you
concerned about the political consequences within the Minnesota
Democratic Party's voter coalition?
Governor Walz. No.
Mr. Langworthy. Did that lead to you making that mistake,
because trying to----
Governor Walz. Yes.
Mr. Langworthy [continuing]. Listen to the answers today
and come up with a conclusion as to why you would turn a blind
eye to this for so long when so many people from your partners
in government across the aisle, but also people at the street
level saw this fraud going on in plain sight.
Governor Walz. Well, we did not, and I know that the rest
of the country saw this recently, and what I would ask you,
Congressman, is what benefit would there be to that? Just
assume there are no ethics involved, which I have a long
history here of doing that. There is certainly no benefit in
taking money from programs that I have advocated for that make
Minnesota the best state to live. And so, we worked it from the
beginning. And look, these folks continue to move. They are a
moving target. We went back to the legislature asking for more
tools. We went back last year and asked for more tools, and now
what is great is Republicans are actually supporting those
things that we put forward. So, as soon as we----
Mr. Langworthy. Well, Governor, Republicans came to this
Committee last month and testified to the fact that they have
been trying to get people's attention in power in Minnesota for
a long time.
Governor Walz. I would disagree with their
characterization.
Mr. Langworthy. Well, so you state that, unequivocally,
there was no political consideration based on constituents in
the Democratic Party to turn a blind eye.
Governor Walz. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
Mr. Langworthy. Now, that is interesting, Governor, because
your first reactions in December 2025 were to call taxpayer
conspiracy theorists and dismiss concerns about the $9 billion
in fraud as white supremacy. And, you know, on December 23, you
stated, ``This is what happens when they scapegoat, and this is
what happens when you no longer hide the idea of white
supremacy.'' You immediately went there, and----
Governor Walz. I believe I was speaking about the ICE
invasion and Metro Surge. I am unfamiliar with where you are
quoting from.
Mr. Langworthy. No, this is when this fraud was uncovered.
Knowing now that those people were correct, would you apologize
to those constituents for classifying them?
Governor Walz. I am unfamiliar with what you are asking
for. I have heard today attacks on the Somali community that I
would view as racist trope thrown at the Somali community.
Mr. Langworthy. Okay. Governor, I understand you need to
deny and deflect, and, you know, your stories are pretty
legendary at this point, but while you were looking the other
way at fraud that took place on your watch, you and your ticket
mates in the Democratic Party in Minnesota get somewhere
between 80 and 90 percent of the vote in Somali-heavy
precincts. In your reelection, the gentleman sitting next to
you won his last election by a mere 21,000 votes. It seems to
me and conventional wisdom here would be that you were
willfully ignorant to these crimes in return for a community
support.
Governor Walz. That is totally false, Congressman. That
accusation is totally false. I won by, I do not know, ten
points, hundreds of thousands of votes.
Mr. Langworthy. He won by 21,000.
Governor Walz. But that accusation, throwing that around,
we came here to help and work with you to try and find
solutions to the problem.
Mr. Langworthy. We are talking about $9 billion in fraud.
Your entire state budget is only $65 billion. I mean, this is a
massive problem.
Governor Walz. Do you have the spreadsheet on that
Congressman on the $9 billion?
Mr. Langworthy. You have rattled off about ten different
numbers today. You clearly do not have a handle on the numbers
either, and you need a serious accounting effort in the State
of Minnesota right now.
Governor Walz. Congressman, I have given you the numbers to
the best of my ability.
Mr. Langworthy. It is my time, not yours. Do you believe
that your inaction in the first term to prevent fraud and the
Childhood Nutrition and Childcare Assistance Programs gave the
green light to other scammers to commit housing and Medicaid
fraud in your second term?
Governor Walz. No, I do not believe that.
Mr. Langworthy. And once again, your words say one thing,
and your actions say something different. You came into office
after several multimillion-dollar fraud scandals on the heels
of a 2018 report alleging that over $100 million was being
defrauded from taxpayers annually, and you did nothing, and in
2020----
Governor Walz. That is not correct----
Mr. Langworthy [continuing]. After hearing about potential
fraud with Feeding Our Future, you did nothing.
Governor Walz. That is incorrect.
Mr. Langworthy. And, Governor, you knew and did nothing to
stop autism payment fraud. Its annual expenses inexplicably
increased from $6 million to $192 million in just five years,
and you did nothing to stop housing stabilization, Medicaid
fraud, which has topped $100 billion, and you did nothing to
stop daycare fraud, an issue that is already costing taxpayers
millions when you were sworn into office. Are you familiar with
Article VIII of the Minnesota Constitution?
Governor Walz. I am not, Congressman, but I will give you
this. Doing nothing, you are in the right job for that in this
Congress. I disagree with that entire characterization. No, I
am unfamiliar with that.
Mr. Langworthy. It seems like you have created a State of
Minnesota that you are free to come and set up shop----
Governor Walz. It ranks at the top of almost every
category.
Mr. Langworthy [continuing]. And make fraud.
Governor Walz. It ranks at the top of nearly every category
and quality of life.
Mr. Langworthy. A real big, bold one after what we have
uncovered here today.
Governor Walz. I think the country has seen what Minnesota
is made of.
Mr. Langworthy. Article VIII states that Minnesota
officers, including the Governor, may be impeached for
malfeasance or nonfeasance in the performance of their official
duties. While billions of dollars of taxpayer money were
allowed to be lost to fraud, whistleblowers were ignored. It is
extremely well documented, and those people were punished and
you had a direct political benefit to this fraud. That is an
impeachable offense. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlemen yields back, and I think you
heard the bell. I know votes are being called. So, the Ranking
Member and I have deferred any closing statements until we come
back.
I want to thank our witnesses for being here. We appreciate
your testimony. Hopefully, you all will read the Committee
report and protect the whistleblowers, and, hopefully we can
hold some people accountable who have committed fraud.
Pursuant to the previous order, the Committee will recess
for Floor votes. We plan to reconvene right after the vote
series.
The Committee stands in recess. Thank you all.
Governor Walz. You want us back?
Chairman Comer. The witnesses can be excused. Thank you
all.
[Recess.]
Chairman Comer. I am going to gavel the Committee back to
order. I know there are some Members that are still coming back
from the Floor, but we are going to go ahead and go through the
bills, and then we will vote on them if there is any debate.
First motion is a Krishnamoorthi motion pertaining to the
Homeland Security Secretary. The motion is debatable. Do any
Members seek recognition on the Krishnamoorthi motion? Anybody
seek recognition? The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. This is for Secretary Noem. Is that correct?
Chairman Comer. This is for Secretary Noem.
Mr. Biggs. So, she has been testifying down and is
continued on in Judiciary, and it is, quite frankly, hard for
me to imagine that there would be anything new that my
colleagues across the aisle would want to ask her. So, it just
seems to me like this is----
Chairman Comer. Would you yield to a question, Mr. Biggs?
Mr. Biggs. Yes. Sure.
Chairman Comer. Did anyone during your Judiciary hearing
today ask about Minnesota and all of that?
Mr. Biggs. Yes, Mr. Chairman, to both of those, Minnesota
and all of that, so.
Chairman Comer. Okay. So, she answered all those questions.
Mr. Biggs. Yes, Mr. Chairman, she did, and I thought she
was also cooperative because a number of my colleagues across
the aisle asked her for more information. She is going to
provide more information, and it just seems to me like this is
deleterious and duplicative, and it would be a waste of time.
So, with that, I would oppose this subpoena and yield back.
Chairman Comer. Okay. All right. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Look, I think
that in this Committee, we have obviously touched on topics
that are covered in other committees, including immigration,
including other matters that have overlapping jurisdiction. But
what has happened with ICE and CBP and DHS, not just with
regard to excessive use of force and the Operation Midway Blitz
or Metro Surge, but also the waste of money and government
resources merits its own kind of examination in this Committee.
So, that is why of all the committees, I think this one has the
broadest jurisdiction and the one that is most concerned about
rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse, and we have seen that in
the DHS.
Chairman Comer. Okay. All right. The gentleman yields back.
I am next going to recognize Mrs. Luna, and I think she may
have an announcement.
Mrs. Luna. Oh, well, thank you, Chairman. First of all, I
think that we are the greatest Committee in Congress, and so I
think that we have purview over every single branch, division,
et cetera. So, I want to talk to everyone, and I think that
these are all valid concerns for Members of Congress to want to
speak directly to the secretaries. But I did also, too, do what
some people do not do in Washington, and I picked up the phone
and called Homeland, and Secretary Noem has agreed to have us,
all the Members, over to Homeland to answer any questions that
we may have. So, that option stands, and I will be taking full
advantage of that not next week as we are out of session, but
as soon as we get back. And so, with that being said, I think
that that pretty much says that there is no need for a
subpoena. She will come in, and she will answer questions and/
or have us over there, and you have stated that you would
coordinate.
Chairman Comer. Very good.
Mrs. Luna. So, I yield. Thanks.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Burchett from
Tennessee.
Mr. Burchett. I was going to ask Mrs. Luna, will there be
food?
Mrs. Luna. I think we can arrange something.
Mr. Burchett. All right.
Mrs. Luna. Maybe Chick-fil-A, if everyone tired of Chick-
fil-A.
Mr. Burchett. I am so dadgum tired of chicken.
Mrs. Luna. Okay. Maybe some vegan?
Mr. Burchett. Give me a pizza with some meat on it.
Mrs. Luna. Vegan is good, you know.
Mr. Burchett. No.
Chairman Comer. Any other Member seek recognition on the
Krishnamoorthi?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. All right. All those in favor of the
Krishnamoorthi motion, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, signify by saying no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have
it, and the motion is not agreed to.
Mr. Garcia. Yeas and nays, please.
Chairman Comer. Okay. A recorded vote has been ordered. All
votes will be rolled to the end of this debate, which hopefully
will be pretty soon.
The next motion is the motion by Ms. Mace referencing Pam
Bondi, the Attorney General. This motion is debatable. Do any
Members seek recognition?
I will comment on it. Or do you wish recognition?
I had a phone call with the Chief of Staff for the Attorney
General, and the Attorney General has offered to give Members a
briefing, a few at a time to come into the Department of
Justice and get a briefing on where they are with respect to
Epstein documents and anything else pertaining to that. So, I
am certainly interested in getting a briefing from the Attorney
General.
Mrs. Luna. I also think that maybe we have questions about
Anthony Weiner, but that is separate.
Chairman Comer. That what?
Mrs. Luna. Anthony Weiner's laptop?
Chairman Comer. Me?
Mrs. Luna. Just in general.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Mrs. Luna. I think she will be willing to answer any
questions.
Chairman Comer. All right.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. I want to support Representative
Mace's motion for the Attorney General. Look, the American
public have significant questions about the DOJ and their
process for releasing of the files. I think the Attorney
General has gone to speak obviously to other Committees. I
think it is important that she is in front of our Committee.
She can directly answer questions about the release of the
files, about transparency, of ensuring that victims and
survivors are protected. And so, we certainly support
Representative Macy's motion as it relates to bringing the
Attorney General here to have a hearing in this Committee, and
if there is other opportunities to speak with her, we would
welcome those as well.
Chairman Comer. Any other Members seek recognition?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. Seeing none. All those in favor of the Mace
motion, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have
it. The motion is not agreed to.
A recorded vote has been ordered. All votes will be rolled
to the end of the debate, okay?
Now, the next motion, Number 3 of 4, is Ms. Mace, the Mace
Number 2 pertaining to her issue, and I will yield to Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. This would be a subpoena for information on the
Sexual Harassment Slush Fund. I want those documents and
information related to it and Members that were included in it.
Chairman Comer. Okay. The Chair recognizes the Ranking
Member.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have some
comments on Representative Mace's motion, and then I would want
to offer just a slight amendment to it, which I think would
help protect certain staff, and I just want to just kind of
clarify first. I want to appreciate the actual effort. I think
that, obviously, there should not be funds to protect any
Member of Congress that has been engaged in any type of sexual
harassment or abuse of anyone, so I do appreciate that effort.
Now, we have heard some concerns from the Office of General
Counsel that the breadth of this motion covering Members,
Senators, staff, Library of Congress staff, Government
Publishing Office (GPO), Government Information Online (GIO),
Capitol Police, and other entities, and employees covered
within the actual motion makes it more likely that the Office
of congressional Workplace Rights could push back based on some
confidentiality language. Also, there is some concern from our
Members that it does not protect staff enough, that there could
be a chilling effect on staff. I understand the intent of the
motion. So, Congresswoman, I just want to add, if you would be
willing to accept this amendment, we think this would clarify
this.
Mr. Chairman, I would move the Committee issue--I am sorry,
let me look here. Oh, Mr. Chairman?
Ms. Mace. Can I copy the language because my language
redacts names of victims of witnesses.
Mr. Garcia. Correct. Correct. There are still some
concerns. Let me just offer the amendment to see if you are
amenable to it.
Mr. Chairman, I move the Committee--I am sorry. One second.
Where did it go? Right here? Here it is. At the end of your
motion----
Ms. Mace. They are trying to cover for their pathetic floor
vote just now.
Mr. Garcia. So, Representative Mace, at the end of the
motion, we would add this language, and I am happy to pass this
out, which we are putting out right now. At the end of the
motion, we would add, ``The awards and settlements will be
limited to a payment made for an award or settlement in
connection with the claim alleging a violation committed
personally by an individual, who at the time of committing the
violation, was a Member of the House of Representatives,
including a delegate or resident commissioner to the Congress,
or a senator.'' Are we okay with that?
Ms. Mace. Yes, I am fine with the language, yep.
Mr. Garcia. Okay. That is something that we believe that we
could support. This amendment, of course, would limit this to
Members, Senators, and with that, I would recommend that we
vote yes to support this amendment.
Chairman Comer. Officially making an amendment?
Mr. Garcia. That is the amendment to add to the motion.
Chairman Comer. Mr. Garcia would like to amend the motion
basically to exclude staff.
Mr. Garcia. So that we can actually focus this on who I
think the Representative is trying to get to, which is Members
and Senators.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, he is using language out of,
basically, Rule 23 of the House Rules, so I am fine with that,
limiting it to House Members, Senators, et cetera. I am good
with this.
Chairman Comer. Okay. So, the amendment has been offered. I
guess the debate is now on the amendment to the motion. I saw
Luna then Biggs. Luna?
Mrs. Luna. All right. I support Representative Mace's
subpoena here as well as the amendment to it, and I just think
it is really disgusting how this institution protects itself
because you all, just half of them, voted to send this stuff to
House Ethics where you know it is going to die. We know that
Members of Congress are using taxpayer dollars to pay off
sexual harassment. We just had a Member of Congress literally
sexually harass a woman that then lit herself on fire, and you
guys all protected him. You guys all protected, my own side,
your side.
And so, if you guys want to talk about victims, if you want
to go out and virtue signal, and then you guys are going to
kill her stuff on the Floor and then try to pass it, yes, of
course we should subpoena all of this stuff. But just I am not
going to sit here and play games. I think it is a complete
fraud. I think that is why the American people hate us. I think
the midterms are coming up, and everyone should go on record
for this, and I hope that Members are exposed for this. I hope
it goes back, I think, to the 70s because it is wrong that it
is happening. It is wrong that we cover up for it. It is wrong
that we cannot center our own side because people are busy
making deals because you guys do not want to center your side.
It is a deal that has been cut, and people hate us for it. So,
yes, I support it.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Representative Luna.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question
because I want to make sure that I understand it. On the second
line of the motion, where it talks about for the awards or
settlements paid, that seems to me that it would exclude
allegations which have been unproven or unsubstantiated or
unresolved through an award or settlement. Is that right?
Ms. Mace. Yes, the word, ``allegation,'' would include
allegations, yes, not just things that have been completed. It
is allegations.
Mr. Biggs. But it does not say that. It says----
Ms. Mace. Oh, it is just final settlements.
Mr. Biggs. Yes. It says awards or final settlements.
Ms. Mace. Yes.
Mr. Biggs. So, I just want to make sure that that is the
case.
Ms. Mace. Yes, correct.
Mr. Biggs. Okay.
Ms. Mace. And I am good with the amendment.
Mr. Biggs. I am all in on the underlying, and I am actually
okay with the amendment, although I do think it narrows it more
than perhaps I would like to see, but I will yield it back to
you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Khanna, then Ms.
Boebert.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to recognize
Representative Mace's courage, first, in standing up for the
disclosure of the Epstein files so we do not protect
pedophiles, and now she is saying the same thing. Let us not
protect people who sexually harass in the U.S. Congress, and
she is saying----
[Applause.]
Mr. Khanna. And she is saying let us have Pam Bondi tell us
why half the files are still hidden. I do not understand how
anyone on this Committee cannot vote yes on both of those
motions. It is about transparency. It has nothing to do with
being a Democrat or a Republican. It is about going after
predators and people who are sexually harassing, and that is
what the American people expect, and I appreciate
Representative Mace's commitment to that transparency.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Boebert.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Khanna.
Chairman Comer. Boebert.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank
Congresswoman Nancy Mace for introducing this privileged
motion. I think at this point, this is something that should be
introduced on a weekly basis. I am absolutely disgusted that we
could not even get to 50 Members of Congress who want immediate
transparency. Don't we all campaign on transparency? Don't we
all go out and tell the American voters that we are leaders and
that we are going to get justice for them, that we are going to
do right by them, and then we hire their daughters to come work
for us, and your tax dollars, millions and millions of dollars
has been used in this slush fund as hush money to silence
victims who have been sexually harassed, sexually abused by
Members of Congress. And then Congress is going to do exactly
what it does best--investigate itself--and we know that none of
that ever goes anywhere.
The American people demand transparency, and this does not
just pertain to a ranch in Arizona or New Mexico or an island
down in the Virgin Islands. This is happening right here in our
Nation's Capital, and we should be held to the highest
standards. And to every Member who voted to send this to
Committee where you know this was sent to die on the House
Floor just moments ago, I hope you have a darn good reason to
tell your constituents why you were not going to stand up for
the victims. And I am glad that we are doing something about it
here in the Oversight Committee. I am glad that this motion was
made here so we actually have another chance at transparency.
But again, these are your tax dollars. These are your tax
dollars that were used to silence victims. They have been
settled with victims. And to the Members who voted against
this, go home and tell your daughters what you did today. Go
home and tell your daughters what happens in the workplace, no
matter where it is, in your hometown, in your Nation's Capital,
and tell them what you did to help continue to cover up decades
of corruption. I am absolutely in favor of this motion. Thank
you, Congresswoman, for bringing this up. I yield.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Donalds, then
Mace.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman. This is really more a
question on the, I am assuming, an amendment to the motion?
Chairman Comer. This is the Garcia Amendment to exclude
staff.
Mr. Donalds. All right. So, I guess my question for Mr.
Garcia is, why are we going to make a limitation on staff? If
congressional dollars have been utilized for the purposes of,
essentially, trying to cover up or cure harassment that has
occurred, why are staff members being exempted from that level
of transparency?
Mr. Garcia. No, I think that is a good question. So, in our
conversations with the Office of General Counsel, I think the
one concern, and it has been brought up by some Members as
well, is that there are some staff in congressional offices and
other places, they have made settlements for a variety of
different reasons. And the concern is that they, in a process
of disclosure, could be unprotected from their settlement
process that they agreed to, and the Office of General Counsel
is unclear that they would have protected in those cases. And
so, that is the concern. At the end of the day, I think the
intent is this is for Members of Congress and for Senators, so
that is the one thing that we are trying to clarify.
Mr. Donalds. And I----
Mr. Higgins. Does the Ranking Member yield for a question?
Mr. Donalds. Hold on, and I appreciate that, but I guess
what I am trying to understand is if that is the standard for a
staff member, that there was a settlement based upon the
reasonings that you said, but that same level is not for the
Member, whether for the Member, whether they are a current
Member or a previous Member that has been in this body. I guess
I am just trying to understand what the limiting principle is
for what we are trying to accomplish because if the goal is
transparency to make sure that harassment that has occurred on
Capitol Hill is now transparent, but that is only for elected
Members, current and past, but does not deal with staff
members, both current and past, then I fail to see how the
level of transparency is being arrived at with the motion.
Mr. Garcia. No, I appreciate it. Can I say one more thing?
I think this is a good back-and-forth. I think the other issue
is there is some concern that staff members that have, on their
own, agreed to a settlement, and if there is additional
disclosure in a settlement that they negotiated for a variety
of different reasons, if they were the actual victim, that this
would cause a chilling effect in small legislative offices.
Mr. Donalds. No, I understand that, but by that logic, that
would occur throughout the entire Capitol Complex under that
logic because if you are going to say that in a small
legislative office, well, let us be clear: half of the House
has small legislative offices. If that is the case, would not
that same logic proceed to the Floor of the House and the Floor
of the Senate? And mind you, I am in favor of the motion, I am
in favor of transparency, but I am trying to ascertain, are we
trying to create a limit to that transparency for the stuff
that, to be blunt, is just hot topic, or are we trying to have
transparency?
Mr. Garcia. No, can I respond one more time? So, I actually
think this is an important debate as a piece of this. I am
going to support the motion. We want to support the motion. As
Democrats, we know what she is trying to get at here. We want
to support it. What we are trying to do is address a real
concern of some of our Members and the offices that we are
talking to about could this have a chilling effect on certain
small offices that have gone into settlements? That is what we
are trying to eliminate. I think the focus here is on Members
of Congress and Senators. I think this amendment tries to
address that. Either way, we are going to support the final
motion. I certainly am. And so, I just wanted to pass it along.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Mr. Donalds, would you yield for a few
seconds?
Mr. Donalds. Yes, sir.
Chairman Comer. I just want to say I agree with you. I
think if we are going to do this, we do not exclude anyone. If
we are going to disclose the settlement, let us disclose every
penny where it went, even if it went to staff because at some
point, people are going to say the amount of money that was
paid out, and I have no idea how much was paid out. I do not
know a single person that was paid, other than maybe the former
Member from Texas a few years ago, but they are going to say a
dollar amount, and everybody is going to assume it was all
Members. Well, it could have been 25 percent Members, 75
percent staff, or it could be a hundred percent Members. I say
disclose the whole thing. So, I oppose the Garcia Amendment,
but I yield back to you, Byron.
Mr. Donalds. I mean, Chairman, I guess my question would be
for the original sponsor of the motion, Ms. Mace. I guess I am
trying to understand where we are taking this, and when it
comes to the transparency aspects, I am a hundred percent for
that. We should do that.
Ms. Mace. Then vote for it.
Mr. Donalds. But Nancy, I am not saying I am voting no.
Like, I am for it, but I am trying to understand why is it okay
to say just the Members and not staff if those things----
Ms. Mace. It is ``Congresswoman Mace.'' I do have a title
like everybody else in this room. We are talking----
Mr. Donalds. Come on, Nancy. I mean, we are just trying to
have a conversation.
Ms. Mace. It is ``Congresswoman Mace.''
Mr. Donalds. I am trying to get an ascertation.
Ms. Mace. I have earned a title, and I watched the majority
of men in this body just vote down a measure----
Mr. Donalds. Nancy, I have----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. To not disclose sexual harassment
records----
Mr. Donalds. Congresswoman Mace, I have never disrespected
you at all.
Ms. Mace [continuing]. Of Members of Congress.
Mr. Donalds. I am not being disrespectful. I am trying to
get an ascertation.
Ms. Mace. You just disrespected me as a woman.
Mr. Donalds. No, I did not. You are taking it too far.
Ms. Mace. Do the taxpayers pay your salary?
Mr. Donalds. I am trying to get an understanding of that
what we are doing here. That is all I am saying.
Ms. Mace. The taxpayers pay our salary----
Mr. Donalds. The core question----
Ms. Mace [continuing]. And taxpayers paid out these
settlements.
Mr. Donalds. Reclaiming my time now.
Ms. Mace. Well, you are over time now.
Mr. Donalds. The core of the question is, why is it okay
for a limitation just to Members if these dollars have been
paid on behalf, potentially, of staff, both currently on
Capitol Hill and previously employed on Capitol Hill.
Ms. Mace. Look, I am in favor of----
Mr. Donalds. If we are seeking transparency, what is the
limit?
Ms. Mace. I am in favor of full disclosure, but if the
other side of the aisle is concerned about legal limitations in
disclosing and it not working, then I am okay with focusing on
just on Members of Congress of both bodies, the House and the
Senate. If you would like to do your own amendment or do your
own subpoena afterwards, then do that too, but this thing has
to pass. I mean, the American people--we expect the American
people to be held accountable to a totally different standard,
and now we are saying, oh, because we do not have staff
included, we are just going to vote this thing down. I am
talking about Members of Congress, bodies in this House, bodies
in the Senate. That is where the focus should be because the
taxpayers are paying our salaries, and if this thing fails
because of a technicality, then that is a failure of the
American people, is where I am going with it.
I want this thing to pass. I would like it to be unanimous.
I would like both parties to vote for it, especially after the
abject failure we just saw on the Floor just now.
Mr. Donalds. Well, I am a minute and 30 over, so I am going
to reclaim. All I am going to say, if there is a technical
concern, then what we are saying also is that the technical
concern is not universal, that we are now picking and choosing
what the technical concern is. And if we are going to now lay
motions for this transparency, I would just say we should
actually examine. According to what the Chairman is saying, are
we going to be consistent, or are we not, and that is all I am
saying. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Min from
California.
Mr. Min. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have a brief comment,
and I do not particularly have any skin in the game on this
one. I voted no on the motion to refer earlier, but I would
just say there is a very clear difference between those of us
who are Members and our staff, which is we are public figures.
We run for office. Our staff did not choose to be in the
limelight. They did not choose to take on this burden. So, when
you look at what private companies do, what government
officials and staff do in other situations, they are typically
not disclosed in the way this bill would do. I think we are
unique in that we are running for office every two years. I
think that we have additional responsibilities and a higher
moral calling and a higher moral level we have to adhere to
because we are so powerful.
So, I support the motion because I think there are
legitimate legal issues with disclosing staff. At the same
time, I support the base motion, whether or not this amendment
passes.
Mr. Biggs. Would the gentleman yield.
Mr. Min. With that, I yield back my time.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes, I think Dr. Foxx, then Clay Higgins.
Ms. Foxx. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Yes?
Ms. Foxx. As someone else said, I do not really have a big
dog in this fight or anything, but if Mr. Garcia might take a
friendly amendment to his amendment. If there is concern about
transparency related to non-Members, could we ask in the
amendment that we get a report on an amount of money that might
have been given out in relationship to non-Members? And then if
there seems to be a real problem there, that that could be then
looked into by this Committee. I am just----
Mr. Garcia. I do not have a problem with that at all. I
think that is a fair request. I think that gives the Committee
opportunity to take a look at that number and see if there is
other action that needs to be taken.
Chairman Comer. So, let me get this straight. You are going
to make an amendment to the amendment, and your amendment is
that we have to disclose how much money was paid out to staff.
Ms. Foxx. Correct, and then----
Chairman Comer. Yes.
Ms. Foxx [continuing]. If this Committee thinks that is a
sizable enough amount----
Chairman Comer. I think that is good. If you would yield, I
think that is good because I do not want a number to come out
and everyone to assume a hundred percent went to Members. It
could be a hundred percent Members, or it could be----
Ms. Mace. Well, to Mr. Donald's point, my staff just told
me that a fair share of the settlement funds were for non-
Members.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Ms. Mace. I do not know if it is 50 percent. I did not have
that information, with Capitol Police settling sexual
harassment claims, allegedly. I have a sheet in my office for
Ms. Foxx after this that goes through--just so everybody knows,
this only goes up to 2018 because this program was ended after
2018, so this is more historical. But my staff just told me a
fair share of the settlement payouts, in some years it was $4
or $5 million dollars, were to people who are not Members of
Congress. So, I just got that piece of intel.
Chairman Comer. You support the Foxx amendment to the
amendment.
Ms. Mace. Repeat it again? What was the amendment to the
amendment?
Ms. Foxx. Well, what I would suggest, Congresswoman Mace,
is that, in order to sort of deal with the transparency issue,
I would like transparency, too, but that we go forward with the
Garcia Amendment so we are focusing only on Members, but we ask
whoever it is we are asking to provide the total amount of
money that had been paid out for----
Ms. Mace. I am fine with that.
Ms. Foxx [continuing]. People other than----
Ms. Mace. And I actually have that list. I have that list
by year, but I am good with that amendment. If you want to do
an amendment to the amendment, I am fine with that, and I have
a spreadsheet, so.
Mr. Garcia. We would support that.
Chairman Comer. Okay, and we are drafting the amendment up.
Ms. Mace. And walk humbly, Mr. Donalds.
Chairman Comer. So, we are going to move----
Ms. Mace. Walk humbly, Mr. Donalds.
Chairman Comer. If anyone else wants to talk about the
amendment to the amendment, I will recognize them. It is going
to take staff a few minutes to draft this up. Mr. Burlison.
Mr. Burlison. I am getting a little bit confused, but I
just want to make sure, and I do not know who would be able to
answer this, but as long as--and, you know, and I did not even
think about this until this conversation happened. But as long
as the public is able to figure it out whether it was the
Member who was the one victimizing and the reason for the
harassment or a staff-on-staff situation. I just want to make
sure that that is----
Chairman Comer. Right.
Mr. Burlison [continuing]. Able to be ascertained in
whatever is released.
Chairman Comer. Yes.
Mr. Burlison. Mr. Garcia, do you understand my question?
Mr. Garcia. I do, and I think that is why we are making the
amendment as well, is we want to be very clear this is about
Members of Congress and Senators. And I think that
Representative Foxx's amendment clarifies that we would get a
report on all other settlements with numbers so that we can
then have information to make any additional motions.
Mr. Burlison. I do think that that is good because if you
have a continuing problem in an office, even if the Member is
not the one doing it----
Mr. Garcia. That is right.
Mr. Burlison [continuing]. But they are not having
oversight of their staff in a proper way, then that is a
problem. But I just want to make sure it is transparent,
whatever we are releasing, that, you know, whoever the
victimizer is, whether it is the Member or their staff.
Chairman Comer. All right. Okay. Any other Members?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. So, do we have it typed up yet? I know we
do not. The amendment, can we do that or not? Does anyone
object if we go and discuss the Bell motion? Do you object, Ms.
Tlaib?
Ms. Tlaib. No, just for clarification.
Chairman Comer. We are trying to type it up. That is why we
are----
Ms. Tlaib. I know.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Ms. Tlaib. Are we exempting chief of staffs and things like
that? As an attorney that worked on these kinds of cases,
sometimes it is management positions that are considered staff,
but, you know, the Member looks the other way kind of thing.
So, I am just cautiously saying that I think Congresswoman Foxx
is right in looking at an amount, but really, should it be
based on an amount or should it be based on whether or not this
person had a supervisor position that is supervised by a
Member? Does that make sense? So, the Member is fully
responsible for their chief, right, and I just feel like, you
know, some of the horror stories I have heard is a Member
knows, they kind of look the other way, and allow the person
managing their staff get away with it.
Chairman Comer. It sounds like----
Ms. Tlaib. Because I am all for protecting----
Chairman Comer. You oppose both amendments, but support the
bill.
Ms. Tlaib. No, I support it.
Chairman Comer. I just want to be----
Ms. Tlaib. I want to do it.
Chairman Comer. I think most people support the bill.
Ms. Tlaib. But I also----
Chairman Comer. I am just saying the----
Ms. Tlaib. I also as a----
Chairman Comer. You oppose excluding staff, and if you----
Ms. Tlaib. Well, this is the thing, as a person that----
Chairman Comer. And I feel that way, too.
Ms. Tlaib. As a person that was sexually harassed at work,
I had a supervisor who reported back to someone else, and
probably if I had known it would get information, I probably
would not have ever reported it. So, I get what our Ranking
Member is saying because, especially when you are younger,
okay? We are at a time in our lives for my fellow sisters in
service here, but for younger staff members, this is scary to
think about any of this information coming out because no
matter what you all think, it will impact their future
prospects. And especially if it is a small staff, they are
going to figure out who it is. It is just a ripple effect. So,
I just want, as we draft this, be very cautious in making sure
we are not protecting people.
The goal is to have people that are fully ones responsible
and making sure and preventing this from happening, and that is
the Member, the Senator, and the House of Representatives
Member, but we got to make sure that, you know, in other
situations where a lot of this stuff can be enabled by the
Member and not addressing these issues. But at the same time,
Chairman Comer, I do worry about victims and folks coming
forward----
Chairman Comer. Right.
Ms. Tlaib [continuing]. Not wanting to come forward because
of what we are trying to do. And we are trying to do this
because people are getting away with it, and Congresswoman Mace
is right. People are getting away with not being held
accountable, and paying off folks, and looking the other way
and, again, probably repeating their abuse afterwards.
Chairman Comer. All right. And since, now that Ms. Talib
yields back, the amendment is typed up. Everyone should have
the amendment to the amendment, and I will read it. The Foxx
Amendment, ``included will also be an annualized list of the
amounts of awards and settlements paid to or on behalf of non-
member staff.'' So, that is the amendment to the amendment.
Does anyone else want to debate the amendment to amendment? Dr.
Foxx?
Ms. Foxx. Well, the only thing I would like to say is I
think Ms. Talib is right about threats to younger women. And if
a report comes back that has a lot of money attached to it,
says there is a lot of money, then this Committee can go ahead
and do some investigation. My point was, let us give an
opportunity----
Chairman Comer. Right.
Ms. Foxx [continuing]. For the Committee to do more if it
needs to, but I think Mr. Garcia's amendment is a good
amendment to narrow it now so we can move on. I think it is the
best of both worlds, I hope.
Chairman Comer. Okay. So, seeing no more, we are going to
vote on the----
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Comer, can I just say--oh, are we voting on
the whole thing right now?
Chairman Comer. No, no, no. We are voting on the amendment
to the amendment. That will be the process. Were you seeking
recognition, Clay?
Mr. Higgins. Yes.
Chairman Comer. Okay. So, all those in favor. Oh, you have
a----
Mr. Higgins. I was seeking recognition.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead.
Mr. Higgins. I would just like to remind the Committee and
those present that we are once again presenting to the American
people that this is the way the Oversight Committee pursues a
subpoena, and this is not the way the Oversight Committee
pursues a subpoena. We are the Majority, and we generally will
work with the Minority party for an appropriate subpoena to be
presented by this Committee. And, like, every time we have a
hearing now, an opportunity to be recognized is going to be
some sort of grandstanding subpoena, whether by the Majority or
the Minority. I think it is beneath the dignity and the
procedures of this subpoena process that is longstanding
established by this Committee and the hard work that the
Committee staff does to accommodate the desires of a Member on
either side of the aisle to pursue a particular subpoena.
This is not the way we normally do it, although this is
becoming the norm. And let me say that this amendment, as it is
being pieced together, is poorly assembled, and nobody really
knows what this thing is or what the impact will be. The good
lady stated that there could be absolutely some impact on
staff, and people will figure out who is who because of small
staffs and when the incident took place.
And finally, let me say that the original motion to
subpoena references a date of December 12, 2018. Let me
clarify. I had to ask what was the significance of that date
because that is when a law was passed that changed the process
to what we have right now. But Americans watching this are
saying, oh, you mean there is no process in place on how to
appropriately handle a complaint like this, and there is. It is
an administrative process that goes to General Counsel set up
by the House since 2018 that handles this. America, a Member is
basically not involved. Now, I have never been sued like this.
I have been sued one time through the administrative process
here in Congress is because I escorted the little fellow away
from a press conference one time.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Higgins. It was not a complaint from a staff Member.
So, I do not have intimate knowledge of the way this mechanism
works, but I do know that Members have very little to do with
it. It is handled by General Counsel, and then it will go to a
district court maybe if it passes through the preliminary
review--that is what it is called right now--by General Counsel
of the House. Then it can get to a district court where a
Member may have his day in court to defend himself or whatever.
So, I am opposed to this process, Mr. Chairman, of just
thrusting subpoena upon the Committee for debate like this that
does not have to happen. I understand that people have
different motives going on with why they support this and I do
not know how I am going to vote, but this thing is like woven
together from three different pieces right now. You have the
original motion, which nobody really understands the impact of,
you have an amendment to the motion, then there is an amendment
to the amendment of the motion, and we are not sure what we are
voting on right now, but we know we are all supposed to vote
yes because it has been thrust upon us like this. I yield.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Well said, Mr. Higgins.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, I would like to respond.
Chairman Comer. I am supposed to recognize Krishnamoorthi
next. Krishnamoorthi?
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Mr. Chair, can we vote?
Chairman Comer. I would love to vote, but we have more
Members seeking recognition. Does any other Member seek
recognition? Mr. Turner and then Mr. Donalds. Okay.
Mr. Turner. I just want to affiliate myself with Mr.
Higgins' statement. I was resisting saying anything about this
whatsoever, but this is a circus. This process degrades valid
legislative processes. It reduces what is supposed to be
substantive legal processes that were debated and adopted by
Congress without any reference to any historical substantive
legislative processes that have happened before Congress, and
this is not how subpoenas or legislation is supposed to be
amended or addressed.
Now, regardless of whether any of these issues in the end
are valid or substantively important, this is not how they are
to be handled in addressing them. This becomes a circus. If
this Committee is going to take up amending this legislation or
addressing this issues it is addressing, we should be having a
hearing on them. We should open it up. We should not be doing
it in this manner, but we are at this point now, Mr. Chairman,
and we are well down the road, but this has become a circus,
and it is unfortunate.
Chairman Comer. Well said.
Ms. Boebert. Sexual harassment is pretty unfortunate, too.
Mr. Timmons. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes, I think, Mr. Timmons.
Mr. Timmons. Mr. Chairman, this is going to revictimize
victims. It is not possible to redact the information to a
point that would preclude anybody that has half a brain about
how this place works of figuring out who the person was that
got the settlement, whether it was the Member or the chief or
some other staffer within. I do not know what the answer is to
this. I am all for transparency, but, I mean, if somebody is
living their lives, this goes back eight years. So, if you got
somebody that something happened to ten years ago and now they
are going to have to start answering questions for it? They
probably want their life to just go on as it is.
I mean, we did not take the necessary steps and a number of
victims were revictimized because of how we went about with the
Epstein files. So, I think maybe we should learn from that and
just get this right. I do not know what the answer is. I am all
for whatever transparency. If there is a victim out there that
would love to make a big deal about this ten years later and
hold somebody accountable further, great, knock it out. But I
think for every one of those people, there is going to be
another person that would prefer to never think about whatever
happened again and enjoy the money they got. So, I do not know
what the answer is, but, I do not think voting on--I mean, this
is going to create more problems, and I will definitely
affiliate myself with Mr. Higgins' remarks. This is not how
this is supposed to happen.
Chairman Comer. Well said. Mr. Donalds and Mr. Sessions?
Mr. Donalds. I actually have a clarifying question on the
Foxx Amendment because as I read that to amend the Garcia
Amendment, in my reading, and I am not a lawyer, but I am
trying to understand this on the fly, it actually invalidates
both amendments and we are back to the original motion because
if we are not going to produce an annualized list of the awards
paid to or on behalf of non-Member staff, which non-Member
staff, I am assuming, would be any other employee in the
Capitol Complex not in a Member office. That is what that says
to me in lay terms. I think what we are actually doing is we
are getting back to the original motion of Ms. Mace, so I am
just trying to get clarity on that, Mr. Chairman, before we
vote this thing out.
Chairman Comer. I cannot clarify. I agree with some of the
earlier statements. This is not how we are supposed to operate.
But,--it is still Byron's time. Are you still talking or----
Mr. Donalds. I just want to know if somebody wants to
answer that.
Chairman Comer. Anybody want to clarify?
Mr. Donalds. Or anybody who has any thoughts on that.
Anybody.
Mrs. Luna. If I could just say, I think they are going to
print it out and vote your conscience, but I say do not support
sexual freaks or deviants and support the amendment, and let us
get it passed. Thank you. I yield.
Mr. Donalds. But let us----
Mrs. Luna. No to freaks, Byron.
Mr. Donalds. Well, hold on now. Here is what we are going
to do now. I think it is important to understand exactly what
we are releasing. Like, I was fine with the original Mace
motion, and then we were told, no, we cannot do that because
there is a chilling effect.
Chairman Comer. Right.
Mr. Donalds. But the Foxx Amendment now kind of undoes some
of the chilling effect, the language that the Garcia Amendment
does. So, I do not think it is just as simple as saying, well,
just vote it out and be done. I think if we are going to do
this, Members have to think very clearly about what we are
actually letting through. I am fine with the original motion as
it is. That is my position.
Chairman Comer. Great.
Mr. Donalds. And I just think that both motions really
countermand each other to a degree.
Ms. Foxx. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Dr. Foxx?
Mr. Donalds. I yield to Mr. Biggs.
Chairman Comer. So, okay. Mr. Biggs, there are still 3
minutes, yes.
Mr. Biggs. Yes. I am just trying to see if I could help
clarify that if you deleted the term, ``non-Members,'' and you
just put ``on behalf of staff of Members of the Senate or House
of Representatives,'' you know, you are talking about the staff
of Members, would that assuage your concern? I mean, I get what
you are saying, and this does kind of get messy, I think. I do
think the lawyer in me is saying, well, maybe we should get
some precision in speaking, and this might be a little bit more
precise than the generic Foxx Amendment. So, anyway. I yield
back to you.
Chairman Comer. All right. Ms. Mace, would you--Dr. Foxx,
do you have anything to add, Dr. Foxx?
Ms. Foxx. Well, I would just say, I think Mr. Garcia's
amendment is pretty clear. It is going after information about
a settlement made on behalf of a Member of Congress, whether it
is to a staff person of a Member of Congress or anybody else. I
do not think you have to say that it is a staff person here. It
just says alleging a violation committed by an individual who
was a Member of Congress or a delegate or whatever. And then
all I am doing to assuage the concern about whether or not it
casts too wide a net in terms of people other than Members is
to say, okay, well, we will get a list of amounts of money paid
out to other people, not staff members, and then see if it is
warranted to proceed. I am just trying to move us off the dime
we are on right now and then see what else needs to be done.
Nothing precludes further investigation.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes--Mr. Sessions, did you
seek recognition?
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, probably
only this top row here back were there some ten years ago when
this was a big issue. Oh, Andy was here. Okay. Well, it was a
very difficult issue. It was in the papers. It cost Members
their jobs. Some of it was true. Some of it was untrue. It
really did not matter. You were guilty if your name even
appeared anywhere near it. There were some good people who got
hurt in that. They took their lumps and they moved on. But
there was an agreement that if you could, and this was by men,
women, both sides, that if you could engage in this without
public scrutiny. I think the fear at the time was it would hurt
someone that claimed this, and you wanted to protect them also.
And I just think that we should get into a circumstance,
perhaps like Chairwoman Foxx has said, let us go in and take a
look at this to where we know what we are talking about before
we do it.
But I do not think in any way that I would be for
protecting someone if they should not be protected, but there
were things that happened that we learned about at the time
that were unintended. And even the person who was harmed said,
well, he may not have meant it and maybe he did not, but I took
it that way. And so, I am just simply saying, I just think we
ought to have a better idea about what we are talking about
here before we go in and assume that there was a right and a
wrong because it was meant to protect people at the time. It
was not a compromise. It was by agreement, that at the time we
did this, that there was agreement to it.
Mr. Timmons. Will you for one second?
Mr. Sessions. I would yield.
Mr. Timmons. I just want to point out that Congresswoman
Mace thought that it was appropriate to say, ``With only
redactions allowable for the personally identifiable
information of victims, alleged victims, and witnesses.'' That
is an illusory caveat because any settlement that was made, you
are going to have the quarterly disclosure of the office. You
are going to see who was there for one quarter, then who was
not there the next. So, this is an illusory redaction,
protection of victims and alleged victims, and I just think
that we need to be aware of that. If we are going to do this, I
mean, this is going to revictimize victims and that sentence
should not be in there because it is pointless, and it does not
actually do what she is trying to accomplish.
Mr. Sessions. And I think that is correct, and with great
respect to Nancy, she just learned some things today about the
motion, the issue, the ideas that she is pushing, and I think
it ought to be thought about a little bit. And I think that we
should revisit it, but with some facts and factors that are
known and understood. I watched good people on both sides that
got caught up in this, and we tried to work out of it by
agreement, not because we compromised. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Yield back. Any other Member seek
recognition on this or we are going to vote? Ms. Mace, you want
to speak on the amendment to the amendment or----
Ms. Mace. I will wait.
Chairman Comer. You will wait? We are going to vote on the
amendment to the amendment. Okay. Are you good with that? I
want you to be happy. All right.
All those in favor of Dr. Foxx's amendment to the
amendment, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, no.
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it, and the amendment to the amendment is agreed to.
Now we will vote on the amendment, as amended, the Garcia
Amendment as amended by Dr. Foxx.
All those in favor of the Garcia Amendment, as amended by
Dr. Foxx's amendment, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it, and the amendment, as amended, is agreed to.
So, now we are back to voting on the Mace Number 2
amendment [sic], as amended.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it. The motion is agreed to.
Now, the last vote is the Bell motion. Mr. Bell, you want
to explain your motion? I do not even remember what it was.
Mr. Bell. Yes, Mr. Chair. My amendment was to bring in
Gregory Bovino to this body. We think it is about
accountability. It is about exactly what this Committee should
be doing. There are operations in Minnesota that all of us
should have questions about, and I think this is a no-brainer.
This is exactly what we should be doing as an Oversight,
getting those questions answered.
Chairman Comer. Any other--anyone else seek--Ms. Mace?
Ms. Mace. [Off mic.]
Chairman Comer. It passed.
Ms. Mace. I know.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Anybody else seek recognition on the
Bell motion?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. Seeing none, all those in favor of the Bell
motion, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have
it.
Mr. Garcia. Recorded vote.
Chairman Comer. A recorded vote has been requested. All
votes will be rolled to the end of the debate.
Now it is the end of the debate. We can vote on the bills,
right, vote on the motions. Okay.
So, the question is on Motion Number 1, the Krishnamoorthi
motion. Members will record their votes using the electronic
voting system.
The clerk will now open the vote on the Krishnamoorthi
motion.
[Voting.]
Chairman Comer. Have all Members voted who wishes to vote?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. Does any Member wish to change their vote?
[No response.]
Seeing none, the clerk will close the vote and report the
vote total.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 19. The
nays are 24.
Chairman Comer. The nays have it, and the motion is not
agreed to.
Okay. The question is now on Motion Number 2 from
Representative Mace. This deals with Attorney General Bondi.
Members will record their votes using the electronic voting
system.
The clerk will now open the board.
[Voting.]
Chairman Comer. Have all Members--and remember, the
Attorney General has offered to come in and give briefings.
Mr. Garcia. Briefings or a hearing?
Chairman Comer. Briefing. Okay. Have all Members----
Mr. Garcia. There is no commitment for her to come in as
far as I understand it.
Ms. Stansbury. Are we not closing the vote because you do
not want the Attorney General to come in front of the Oversight
Committee, because it is pretty rudimentary.
[Pause.]
Chairman Comer. Have all Members voted to wish to be
recorded?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. Does any Member wish to change their vote?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. The clerk will close the vote and report
the vote total.
[Pause.]
Chairman Comer. Yes. Report the vote total, please.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 24. The
nays are 19.
Chairman Comer. The ayes have it, and the motion is agreed
to.
The question is now on Motion Number 4 from Mr. Bell.
Members will record their votes using the electronic voting
system.
The clerk will now open the vote on the Bell Motion.
[Voting.]
Chairman Comer. Have all Members recorded been recorded who
wish to be recorded?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. Does any Member wish to change their vote?
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. Seeing none, the clerk will now close the
vote and report the vote total.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 19. The
nays are 22.
Chairman Comer. The nays have it, and the motion is not
agreed to.
In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for
their testimony today.
Also, the next item of Committee business is ratifying the
new Subcommittee roster. The clerks have distributed the roster
electronically.
I ask unanimous consent the Committee approve the
appointments and assignments as shown on the roster.
Without objection, the Subcommittee roster is approved.
With that and without objection, all Members have five
legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, the
Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
[all]