[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  RESTORING BALANCE: ENSURING FAIRNESS
                      AND TRANSPARENCY AT THE NLRB
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               Before The

                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH, 
                    EMPLOYMENT, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                                 OF THE

                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________


             HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, JUNE 11, 2025

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-19

                               __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Workforce
    
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    

        Available via: edworkforce.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
        
                               __________
                               
                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
62-887                    WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
       
                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE

                    TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Chairman

JOE WILSON, South Carolina           ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, 
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina            Virginia,
GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania           Ranking Member
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York          FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                MARK TAKANO, California
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            MARK DeSAULNIER, California
MARY E. MILLER, Illinois             DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana              LUCY McBATH, Georgia
KEVIN KILEY, California              JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio               ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam                HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan
ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania         SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington      JOHN W. MANNION, New York
MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          YASSAMIN ANSARI, Arizona
MARK B. MESSMER, Indiana
RANDY FINE, Florida

                     R.J. Laukitis, Staff Director
              Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director
                                 ------                                

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EMPLOYMENT, LABOR, AND PENSIONS

                     RICK ALLEN, Georgia, Chairman

ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       MARK DeSAULNIER, California,
JOE WILSON, South Carolina             Ranking Member
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina        JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio               GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania         SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington      JOHN W. MANNION, New York
RANDY FINE, Florida                  MARK TAKANO, California
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on June 11, 2025....................................     1

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

    Allen, Hon. Rick, Chairman, Subcommittee on Health, 
      Employment, Labor, and Pensions............................     1
        Prepared statement of....................................     4
    DeSaulnier, Hon. Mark, Ranking Member, Subcommittee Health, 
      Employment, Labor, and Pensions............................     6
        Prepared statement of....................................     9

                               WITNESSES

    Solem, Aaron, Staff Attorney, National Right to Work Legal 
      Defense Foundation.........................................    12
        Prepared statement of....................................    14
    Vernuccio, F. Vincent, President, Institute for the American 
      Worker.....................................................    32
        Prepared statement of....................................    34
    Abruzzo, Jennifer, Senior Advisor to the President, 
      Communications Workers of America..........................    46
        Prepared statement of....................................    48
    King, Roger, Senior Labor and Employment Counsel, H.R. Policy 
      Association................................................    55
        Prepared statement of....................................    57

                         ADDITIONAL SUBMISSIONS

    Courtney, Hon. Joe, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Connecticut:
        ICYMI: Rep. Courtney Pens New Piece dated June 6, 2025, 
          titled ``Collective Bargaining Is Rebuilding America's 
          Defense Industrial Base''..............................    96
    Onder, Hon. Robert F., Jr, a Representative in Congress from 
      the State of Missouri:
        Report titled ``Misread--How Legal Authorities Allowed 
          Tyranny of the Minority to Subvert Worker 
          Enfranchisement''......................................   105

                        QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

    Responses to questions submitted for the record by:
        Mr. Aaron Solem..........................................   129
        Ms. Jennifer Abruzzo.....................................   134

 
                  RESTORING BALANCE: ENSURING FAIRNESS
                      AND TRANSPARENCY AT THE NLRB

                              ----------                              


                        Wednesday, June 11, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
    Subcommittee on Health, Employment, Labor, and 
                                          Pensions,
                      Committee on Education and Workforce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., in 
Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Rick Allen 
(Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Allen, Onder, Wilson, Foxx, 
Baumgartner, Walberg, DeSaulnier, Courtney, McBath, Lee, 
Mannion, Takano, and Scott.
    Staff present: Vlad Cerga, Director of Information 
Technology; Libby Kearns, Press Assistant; Katerina Kerska, 
Legislative Assistant; Trey Kovacs, Director of Workforce 
Policy; Campbell Ladd, Clerk; R.J. Laukitis, Staff Director; 
Danny Marca, Director of Information Technology; Brad Mannion, 
Professional Staff Member; John Martin, Deputy Director of 
Workforce Policy/Counsel; Audra McGeorge, Communications 
Director; Alexis Morgan, Intern; Daniel Nadel, Legislative 
Assistant; Kevin O'Keefe, Professional Staff Member; Ethan 
Pann, Deputy Press Secretary and Digital Director; Ellison 
Powell, Intern; Kane Riddell, Staff Assistant; Carl Rifino, 
Intern; Sara Robertson, Press Secretary; Heidi Schneider, 
Professional Staff Member; Ann Vogel, Director of Operations; 
Ali Watson, Director of Member Services; Joe Wheeler, 
Professional Staff Member; James Whittaker, General Counsel; 
Samantha Wright, Intern; Ellie Berenson, Minority Press 
Assistant; Sayda Bir, Minority Intern; Ilana Brunner, Minority 
General Counsel; Ni'Aisha Banks, Minority Staff Assistant; 
Patrick Jo, Minority Intern; Alexandra Walker, Minority Intern; 
Vivian Wiggins, Minority Intern; Stephanie Lalle, Minority 
Communications Director; Dhrtvan Sherman, Minority Research 
Assistant; Raiyana Malone, Minority Press Secretary; Brian 
Marshall, Minority Legal Intern; Kevin McDermott, Minority 
Director of Labor Policy; Eleazer Padilla, Minority Staff 
Assistant; Mason Pesek, Minority Labor Policy Counsel; 
Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director; Banyon Vassar, 
Minority Director of IT.
    Chairman Allen. The Subcommittee on Health, Employment, 
Labor and Pensions will now come to order. I note that a quorum 
is present. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to call 
a recess at any time.
    Today's hearing will examine the current State of labor law 
under the National Labor Relations Board, and explore solutions 
that promote worker choice, provide legal predictability, and 
stability for employers, and give workers better access to a 
fair representation in their elections.
    In 1935, Congress passed the National Labor Relations Act 
to protect workers and to supervise union elections through the 
NLRB. Under the Biden-Harris administration, however, the NLRB 
engaged in gross mismanagement and acted as the litigation arm 
for big labor, protecting union bosses rather than elevating 
rank and file members.
    The Board spent 4 years under the Biden-Harris 
administration gutting the Democratic process by which unions 
become exclusive representatives of employees. One way in which 
the Board undermined this valued Democratic process was by 
attacking the use of secret ballots.
    Secret ballot elections are the gold standard in any 
Democratic system. That is why the NLRA, the Board, and the 
Courts have traditionally encouraged their use in union 
elections. However, the Biden-Harris NLRB gutted that 
historical preference for secret ballot elections in favor of 
the card check process. I have been committed to protecting the 
use of secret ballots, which is why I recently introduced the 
Secret Ballot Protection Act, which guarantees that every vote 
to unionize a workplace is cast with a secret ballot.
    In yet another blow to workforce democracy, the Biden-
Harris NLRB gagged employers who wished to exercise their free 
speech rights during a union election campaign. The Board made 
it an unfair labor practice for an employer to require its 
employees to attend a meeting on work time and discuss its 
stance on unionization.
    A cornerstone of any campaign is robust debate about the 
pros and cons of the various candidates and options. The Biden-
Harris Board was less interested in debate and democracy than 
it was in seeing that unions were entrenched in every 
workplace. One of the purposes of NLRA is to help resolve 
workplace conflict, and remedy unfair labor practices.
    Congress created the NLRB to right wrongs, not to punish 
wrongdoers, but the Biden-Harris Board was too interested in 
exceeding congressional authority, and both the General Counsel 
and the Board itself worked to expand ways to punish parties 
found to have committed unfair labor practices.
    The NLRB also raised barriers to holding elections at all, 
even when employees petitioned the Board for a vote. The 
biggest hurdle was the return of the controversial blocking 
charge policy, which allowed unions to file frivolous, unfair 
labor charges, and delay elections by months or years.
    Finally, the Biden-Harris Board spent 4 years engaging in 
government overreach to expand unions and their control over 
American workers. The Biden-Harris Board defined graduate 
students and student athletes as employees, simply so these 
groups can unionize.
    The NLRB also adopted an elastic standard to determine 
whether a worker is an employee covered by the Act, or an 
independent contractor, despite data showing that this will 
have a disastrous impact on the economy. Similarly, the Board 
published their final rule establishing a broader standard to 
determine the existence of a Joint Employer Relationship, 
threatening the franchise model and other business 
relationships.
    I will continue to fight for the rights of American 
workers, ad push back on LARB overreach. For many Congresses I 
have introduced the Employee Rights Act, which addresses these 
issues I have mentioned here today. As I work to reintroduce 
this bill this Congress, the well-being of the American worker 
will remain at the forefront.
    We are here today to discuss how to ensure the NLRB serves 
the interest of workers as Congress intended. It is time for 
the Board to champion the right of employees to pick the union, 
not the union to pick the employees. It is time for the Board 
to refocus on resolving workplace conflicts, instead of 
punishing business owners. I look forward to discussing how to 
adjust that with our expert witnesses today.
    I hope that together we can find a way to make NLRB a more 
balanced referee of American workplaces. With that, I yield to 
the Ranking Member for an opening statement.
    [The statement of Chairman Allen follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    
       

    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank 
the witnesses here today to have this open debate of ideas. I 
just want to mention that unions are more popular right now 
than any time in American history. 71 percent, according to 
well, non-partisan, vetted polling, and that is because 
Americans know that they need a voice.
    They need a voice in the most concentrated economy in 
American history, worse than the Gilded Age of where the money 
is, that picture is a swearing in of the current President, 
where those three individuals have more wealth than 40 percent 
of the American population, so we need countervailing 
institutions. The American public gets it, Mr. Chairman. 71 
percent of the American people know that labor unions are their 
voice.
    It is about balance, but the idea, at least from my 
perspective, could not be more different than yours about the 
balance right now in the comments I just made. Today's hearing 
is an important one in that regard, as we will discuss the 
National Labor Relations Board, the only Federal agency that 
protects the rights of tens of millions of American workers to 
organize and have a voice.
    While I welcome the opportunity to discuss these important 
issues, the Committee Republicans are holding this hearing as 
if these are normal times, and it is simply business as usual. 
Let me start by acknowledging the obvious: these are not normal 
times, and they are not normal times for American workers as 
their disposable income continues to shrink as a promise by 
this President to do something about inflation, is actually not 
happening, it is getting worse.
    In fact, since returning to the White House, the Trump 
administration has unfortunately consistently undermined 
working Americans, particularly those who wish to exercise 
their right to organize and collectively bargain. In January, 
President Trump ordered the unprecedented firing of NLRB member 
Gwynne Wilcox, a highly experienced labor lawyer and champion 
for American workers.
    By firing Member Wilcox, the President stripped the NLRB of 
its quorum, preventing the NLRB from doing its vital work 
protecting American workers from harassment and coercion by 
union busting companies. Then in February, President Trump 
issued an executive order giving himself unprecedented control 
over the rulemaking and legal positions of independent 
agencies, including the NLRB.
    The repercussions of this executive order could prove to be 
disastrous, not only for the NLRB and the American workers they 
defend and their independence, but for workers as a whole. 
Since the NLRB's inception, workers have relied on the agency's 
expertise and independence in enforcing the National Labor 
Relations Act. Any loss of independence means that the NLRB, 
and other independent agencies, are vulnerable to direct 
political interference from President Trump and the 
administration.
    Even though the NLRB has not issued reductions in force as 
of now, we continue to pay close attention to any efforts by 
DOGE to cut the NLRB's already bare bones workforce. The 
Board's workforce is nearly 30 percent smaller than it was 15 
years ago, while its workload has grown.
    I also remain concerned that the President's budget fails 
to make the investments necessary to address the NLRB's 
staffing crisis, particularly at its regional offices. Today we 
have a unique opportunity to learn more about what the Trump 
administration's policy means for the NLRB as well as the 
American workforce.
    From true expert and committed public servant, we are very 
fortunate to have Ms. Jennifer Abruzzo, thank you for being 
here again, you're a great witness from my perspective, as one 
of the witnesses. She worked for decades at the NLRB, most 
recently as the General Counsel.
    Based on the title of today's hearing, Committee 
Republicans will have you believe that the scales have been 
tipped in favor of pro-union workers, or big labor bosses. That 
is far from the truth. By and large, the system remains rigged 
against American workers, in favor of corporations that do not 
play by the rules.
    Let me tell you this is not about all employers. Many 
employers who have union contracts and do not, play by the 
rules. The problem is that we are going down to the worst 
employers, employers who want to pay sub-minimum wage work 
wages, are okay with violating child labor laws, and reliable, 
consistently proven to defend and help the economy, labor laws 
that protect the American workforce.
    It is those employers that my hope would be that we would 
join in making sure that there is oversight and consequences 
when they violate not just the spirit of the law, but the 
letter of law, and allow for effective regulation. Simply look 
at the numbers. From 1979 to 23 annual wages for the bottom 90 
percent of American households has increased just 44 percent, 
while average incomes for the wealthiest 1 percent increased 
more that 180 percent.
    Let me repeat that again. 90 percent of American 
households, they got a 44 percent raise. It sounds like a lot, 
but the top 1 percent, people making over 10 million dollars a 
year made 180 percent. Again, it gets worse and worse at the 
expense of American workers who get up every day and go to work 
and perform well.
    70 percent, as I said in my beginning comments, approve of 
labor unions, and 60 million American workers say they would 
unionize if given the opportunity. Even for those who do not 
unionize, we know from the research that union activity raises 
the bar for everyone, union and non-union. It makes the country 
a better place and more productive, makes it more like the 
Eisenhower administration, when we grew the American middle 
class, and a GDP of 6 percent over a decade.
    Meanwhile, workers organizing has skyrocketed over the last 
few years, yet union membership has hit a new record low. Why 
is this the case?
    It is because for too long unscrupulous employers, not all 
employers, have weaponized captive audience meetings, faced no 
real penalties for illegal firings, and exploited procedural 
tricks in NLRB's proceedings to crush workers' unions efforts 
and their ability to have a voice
    I come to this hearing with what I believe is a unique 
perspective. As many of you know, I owned small businesses. I 
made many payrolls in a very difficult business, the restaurant 
business, and I take pride in the relationships I formed with 
my employees during that time.
    They made me successful. I learned that the success of a 
business lies in the relationship between the employer and the 
employees, union or non-union. Treating workers with respect 
that they deserve is not only a right, it is a savvy business 
practice, and it is the essence of America.
    As de Tocqueville said in the 1800's, ``The simple genius 
to America is to expect exceptional things from ordinary 
people.'' That works in employer/employee, in the business 
sector. I am also a former union member, having been a Teamster 
and a member of the AFL-CIO. I know firsthand the benefits of 
union membership and the power unions have in bridging the gap 
between workers and their employers, helping all workers.
    Not just those, as I have said, who are union members, earn 
higher pay, better benefits, safer workplaces, and have 
respect. Forming a union must be a right and not a fight. 
Democrats will not stay quiet while this administration attacks 
American workers.
    I hope we can have a productive discussion today, Mr. 
Chairman, that centers around workers experiences, and also 
focuses on low road employees, who do a disservice, not just to 
their workers, but to the best American employers who respect 
their workers. Thank you, I yield back.
    [The statement of Ranking Member DeSaulnier follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]      

    Chairman Allen. The Ranking Member yields. Pursuant to 
Committee Rule 8(c), all members who wish to insert written 
statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the 
Committee Clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format by 5 
p.m., 14 days after this hearing.
    Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 
14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material 
noted during the hearing to be submitted for the official 
hearing record.
    I will now turn to the introduction of our four 
distinguished witnesses. Our first witness is Mr. Aaron Solem, 
a Staff Attorney for the National Right to Work Legal Defense 
Foundation in Springfield, Virginia. Our second witness is Mr. 
Vincent Vernuccio, the President of the Institute for the 
American Worker in Hamilton, Virginia, and I hope I did not 
mess that last name up too bad there.
    Our third witness is Jennifer Abruzzo, Senior Advisor to 
the President of Communication Workers of America in 
Washington, DC. Mrs. Abruzzo served as General Counsel of the 
NLRB during the Biden administration. Our last witness is Mr. 
Roger King, Senior Labor and Employment Counsel at H.R. Policy 
Association in Washington, DC.
    We thank the witnesses for being here today, and we look 
forward to your testimony. Pursuant to Committee Rules, I would 
ask that you each limit your oral presentation to a 3-minute 
summary of your written statement, as Committee members have 
many questions for you, the clock will countdown from 3 
minutes.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(d), and Committee practice, 
however, I will not cutoff your testimony until you reach the 
5-minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be 
aware of their responsibility to provide accurate information 
to the Subcommittee.
    Now, it is my privilege to recognize Mr. Solem for your 
testimony.

STATEMENT OF MR. AARON SOLEM, STAFF ATTORNEY, NATIONAL RIGHT TO 
      WORK LEGAL DEFENSE FOUNDATION, SPRINGFIELD, VIRGINIA

    Mr. Solem. Thank you, Chairman Allen, Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier, and members of the Committee. My name is Aaron 
Solem, I am an attorney at Right to Work Legal Defense 
Foundation. I represent individual employees, workers whose 
voices are too often lost in policy debates dominated by union 
officials and employer interests.
    The National Labor Relations Act is fundamentally about 
employee free choice. It protects equally the right to choose 
the union, and the right to reject one. The Board is supposed 
to remain neutral between those choices, but over the past 4 
years the Biden NLRB has severely tilted the playing field in 
favor of union officials at the expense of employees who oppose 
union representation.
    This shift was not surprising at all. President Biden 
promised to be the most pro-union President in history, and his 
appointees followed that lead. Consider just the following 
examples: In Cemex, the Board held it would nullify an employee 
vote against a union and then decide that the union is to be 
the employee's representative, if an employer supposedly 
committed even minor unfair labor practices.
    With the Election Prevention Rule, the Biden Board took 
away an employee's right to call for a secret ballot election 
after they are subjected to a union card check campaign, by 
restoring the so-called recognition bar. With the Election 
Prevention Rule, the Biden Board revived the discredited 
blocking charge policy, which allows unions to unilaterally 
delay and employee to certification election simply by filing 
an allegation against the employer.
    No neutral fact finding required. The Biden NLRB's agenda 
confused empowering union officials with protecting employee 
free choice. The agenda ignores the reality that many workers 
don't want union representation. It ultimately infantilizes 
employees by treating them like sheep, or too ignorant to 
decide for themselves whether they want to be unionized.
    To restore balance and fairness, the next Board in this 
Congress should advance a truly pro-employee agenda. This 
agenda should be centered on employee democracy and protecting 
an employee's right not to fund union politics. That includes 
ending non-statutory election bars, like the recognition bar, 
that prevent elections at regular intervals.
    Ending the blocking charge policy to restore an employee's 
right to a timely secret ballot election, protecting an 
employee's right to opt out of funding for union politics, and 
ensuring open debate by protecting free speech on all sides. 
Labor law should not protect employees--should protect 
employees, and that includes employees who do not want a union, 
employees who want information about the down sides of a union, 
and employees who want to work without being forced to fund 
union political causes.
    Thank you and I look forward to your questions on all of 
these issues.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Solem follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]  
    
    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Mr. Solem. Now I recognize Mr. 
Vernuccio for your testimony.

STATEMENT OF MR. F. VINCENT VERNUCCIO, PRESIDENT, INSTITUTE FOR 
            THE AMERICAN WORKER, HAMILTON, VIRGINIA

    Mr. Vernuccio. Chairman Allen, members of the Committee, my 
name is Vincent Vernuccio, and I am President of the Institute 
for the American worker. I4AW is a 501(c)(3) educational 
organization focused on empowering American workers. Thank you 
for giving me the opportunity to testify here today.
    Constantly shifting interpretations of the National Labor 
Relations Act are causing confusion and harming workers. The 
National Labor Relations Board needs to restore balance and 
ensure fairness and transparency for workers, unions and job 
creators. In addition to the NLRB's efforts, Congress can work 
to enhance a level playing field, ensuring NLRA empowers the 
American worker with a fair and transparent system.
    This system should prioritize worker enfranchisement, 
ensuring that a majority or quorum of the full bargaining unit 
has a say in union elections, to make sure unionization 
reflects the true will of the workforce. This is something that 
a plain reading of the NLRA already provides.
    The Act is clear, representatives are to be selected or 
designated by and I quote, ``The majority of the employees in a 
unit.'' The NLRB should also ensure workers can make an 
informed decision on unionization by not stifling speech and 
forbidding employer meetings on unionization.
    These meetings are essential to allow workers to hear all 
sides on what a unionized workplace would mean for them and 
their families. The Board should also ensure the NLRA does not 
shield harassing or discriminatory language or conduct, 
preserving a respectful workplace.
    It should also preserve independent work arrangements and 
maintain a clear, direct control standard for joint employment. 
Many of these issues can be addressed at the Board level. 
Still, Congress can and is taking steps to protect 
transparency, fairness, and the ability of workers to champion 
their own destiny.
    Representative Bob Onder recently introduced the Worker 
Enfranchisement Act, which would require a quorum of workers to 
vote in a secret ballot election before a union is organized. 
To give workers more freedom, Representative Eric Burleson in 
the last Congress introduced the Workers Choice Act, which 
would allow workers in unionized jobs and right to work states 
to opt out of representation and negotiate directly with their 
employer.
    Representative Kevin Kiley recently introduced the Modern 
Worker Empowerment Act to ensure that American workers who want 
to work for themselves or earn extra side income, are not 
forced to be employees. Unfortunately, on the negative side, 
Senator Josh Hawley has introduced the Faster Labor Contracts 
Act, which would allow government bureaucrats to force 
arbitration for first contracts on workers unions and job 
creators.
    Labor law needs to embrace and encourage entrepreneurship 
and the flexibility that modern workers want. Congress has 
sought to remedy many of these matters through legislation and 
the NLRB can also restore balance for workers by embracing 
traditional interpretations on these issues and staying 
faithful to the plain language of the NLRA.
    Thank you for giving me this opportunity, and I will 
welcome any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Vernuccio follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]  
    
    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Mr. Vernuccio, and next I will 
recognize Ms. Abruzzo for your testimony.

   STATEMENT OF MS. JENNIFER ABRUZZO, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE 
 PRESIDENT, COMMUNICATIONS WORKERS OF AMERICA, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Ms. Abruzzo. Thank you, Chairman Allen and Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier, I am Jennifer Abruzzo, and I served the public for 
almost 30 years at the National Labor Relations Board, most 
recently as its General Counsel.
    As to the theme of this hearing, I would submit that we 
need to restore balance and ensure fairness and transparency at 
all workplaces around the country. In order to do that, the 
NLRB must be able to hold true to the public policy of the 
United States, as stated in the National Labor Relations Act, 
and that is to encourage collective bargaining, and to protect 
workers full freedom of association.
    We all know that the power dynamics at workplaces are 
skewed in favor of employers, and in enacting the statute 
Congress rightly recognized the only way to combat that power 
and balance was by fostering strength in numbers among 
employees, so they could act together, and engage with their 
employers and negotiate over improved working conditions and 
wages, with or without a union.
    As written and intended, the NLRA is a pro-worker statute, 
not a pro-union one, and not a pro-employer one. It protects 
workplace democracy where employees feel empowered to freely 
exercise their rights to engage in union or other protected 
activity to better their lives. The problem is that the NLRB is 
not fully protecting workers in this country right now, and it 
could get worse.
    Today, I share four action items for Congress to consider 
and implement. First, you should force this President to abide 
by the NLRA. In January, the President unlawfully fired Board 
Member Gwynne Wilcox, an experienced labor law attorney who was 
well, well steeped in labor law, violating not only the 
statute, but also 90 years of Supreme Court precedent.
    As a result, the Board lost its quorum, which means it 
cannot issue decisions. Who is benefiting from that--that 
dysfunction? Not workers, employers. Employers who now feel 
emboldened to violate the law with impunity and retaliate 
against their workers because there is no functioning board to 
hold them accountable.
    At the same time that corporations and billionaires are 
pushing for more tax cuts at the expense of working families, 
they are also trying to squelch worker action, worker power, 
worker voice.
    Second, Congress needs to fight to maintain the statutory 
independence of this multi-member bipartisan board, and its 
decisionmaking authority. Through actions and arguments made in 
Court, I think this President believes that he can ignore 
statutes, fire people at whim, and give his donors a blank 
check to trample on workers' rights in this country to 
unionize, collectively bargain, and act together to improve 
their circumstances.
    Third, Congress needs to fully fund the NLRB. When I 
started back as General Counsel, the staffing was at the lowest 
level it had been since 1958. The staff is very talented, and 
very dedicated, but they do not have the resources that they 
need to address the case intake.
    Until Congress fully funds the NLRB, workers are going to 
continue to experience long delays in getting remedies, after 
being unlawfully fired. They cannot get back to work in any 
timely manner. They cannot get the back pay that they deserve. 
Unfortunately, corporations can afford to drag out the 
processes, but workers cannot.
    Fourth, Congress should use its power to make the law even 
more balanced and fair by passing legislation that protects 
more employees, covers more employers, assesses penalties for 
violators, and facilitates reaching collective bargaining 
agreements in a timely manner.
    Congress passed this statute in 1935 during the Great 
Depression, amid widespread industrial instability and 
workplace conflict. A functioning, well-funded NLRB can help 
ensure stable labor management relations at workplaces that 
inures to the benefit of workers, their families, their 
communities and employers alike. This is all about protecting 
workers and their families whose interests you were elected to 
represent. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Abruzzo follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]      

    Chairman Allen. Thank you for your testimony. Last, I 
recognize Mr. King for your testimony.

   STATEMENT OF MR. ROGER KING, SENIOR LABOR AND EMPLOYMENT 
       COUNSEL, H.R. POLICY ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Mr. King. Thank you, Chairman Allen, Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier, and Committee Chair Walberg, and Ranking Committee 
Member Scott. It is nice to again appear before this Committee. 
I am here on behalf of the H.R. Policy Association. We 
represent over 350 employers that have operations throughout 
the country.
    The employee complement of those member companies is almost 
10 percent of the private sector workforce in this country. The 
issues before this Committee on a continual basis are of vital 
interest to our Association. I commend the Committee for the 
title of the hearing today, Rebalancing the Application of the 
National Labor Relations Board.
    Suffice it to say, while I have a very high regard for my 
colleague, Ms. Abruzzo, I believe she has an incorrect view of 
the National Labor Relations Act at the outset. What 
unfortunately many proponents come here in this Committee and 
other Committees of Congress, and they make the statement that 
the National Relations Act was passed to promote collective 
bargaining.
    That is correct to a point, but what those individuals fail 
to acknowledge is the Act was written by the Congress for those 
employees that desire union representation. They have the cart 
before the horse. Collective bargaining does not occur unless 
or until a majority of employees in an appropriate unit have 
elected union representation.
    With respect to the balancing of the application of the 
Act, it has been out of balance in a very significant way for 
the last 4 years plus. First, the Office of General Counsel has 
pursued initiatives that are not core important to the Act. For 
example, pursuing the initiative that college athletes, student 
athletes, should be covered by the National Labor Relations 
Act, was a significant waste of government money, and agency 
resources.
    Trying to narrow the definition of who is an independent 
contractor has interfered with numerous entrepreneurial 
opportunities for literally thousands of workers in this 
country. Further broadening the definition of joint employer 
status has interfered with business relationships for thousands 
of employers and many, many more, thousands of employees.
    The franchisor/franchisee industry has been seriously 
disrupted by initiatives by the National Labor Relations Board. 
These attempts to expand the Act well beyond its intent is well 
beyond the core mission of protecting employees, and I 
certainly agree with Ms. Abruzzo, the Act is intended to 
protect employees, not union institutional interest, nor 
employer interests. It is about employees.
    In the Office of General Counsel's pursuit of this agenda 
they have wasted taxpayer dollars in numerous, numerous 
unneeded initiatives. The agency's own statistics show that for 
every reduction of settlement percentage of 1 percent, the 
agency suffers at least 2 million dollars of wasted resources.
    The settlement rate for cases has dropped dramatically 
under the past administration, at least 5 percent. That is 10 
million dollars right there, but that is not the end of the 
story. The time it takes to even get to a settlement has 
increased significantly. At the time that the Agency is not 
using its resources properly, it continually comes to Congress 
and asks for more money.
    That is certainly not appropriate. Briefly, with respect to 
the National Labor Relations Board's juris prudence, the Biden 
Board overruled literally decades of precedent. Mr. Allen, I 
commend you for your proposal to guarantee secret ballot 
elections. The Cemex case at bottom is all about eliminating 
secret ballot elections and relying primarily on card checks.
    That case alone overrules decades of precedent. The Amazon 
case that was referred to earlier prohibits employers from 
having meetings with their employees regarding unionization. 
That case decision again overrules decades of precedent and is 
inconsistent with Section 8(c) of the NRA, and the First 
Amendment.
    From my perspective, it has no chance of survival in the 
Court. In summary, there are many other things, Chairman Allen, 
that we could discuss, and hopefully we will have an 
opportunity to discuss that this morning.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. King follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]  
    
    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Mr. King. Under Committee Rule 
9, we will now question the witnesses under the 5-minute rule. 
I will recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Vernuccio, your 
written testimony reflects your concern that under current law 
NLRB election procedures do not do a good job at ensuring 
workers get the collective bargaining representatives of their 
choice.
    As we all know, the Biden-Harris NLRB made it easier than 
ever for unions to come into a workplace without an election at 
all. How should current election procedures be changed to 
address your concerns?
    Mr. Vernuccio. Mr. Chairman, thank you again for the 
question and the opportunity. Workers need empowerment, and 
when it comes to selection to selecting a union, they need to 
be empowered to make that choice, to make that choice securely 
and privately, and that choice should be reflective of the 
entire workforce.
    Given some of your legislation in the past, Secret Ballot 
Protection Act, workers should be afforded the secret ballot to 
choose a union in private without intimidation or coercion, and 
we have heard countless stories before this Committee of that 
type of intimidation and coercion that comes with card check, 
and could come out of a decision stemming from the Cemex 
decision of the previous NLRB.
    Further, the NLRB should also honor the true language, the 
precise language of the National Labor Relations Act that says 
that a union must be chosen by the majority of all the 
employees in the unit, or at a minimum, a quorum of majority of 
employees in the unit.
    Chairman Allen. Good, thank you. Mr. King, last Congress, 
the Save Local Business Act was introduced to reverse the 
damage done by the Biden-Harris Board's position on the joint 
employer issue. Can you explain the 2023 NLRB Joint Employer 
Rule and how we could amend the law to create a predictable 
legal landscape for employers?
    Mr. King. Well, hopefully an approach will emerge from the 
Board, whether it be a Democrat Board, a Republican Board, 
Chairman Allen, that only would find a joint employer 
relationship when there is direct and immediate control of one 
entity over another entity's employees in terms of conditions 
of employment.
    This area of the law has been turned upside down, back and 
forth, it is in a State of continual flux. It helps no one, and 
as I mentioned at the outset of my remarks, it particularly 
hurts franchisors and franchisees, which are the bedrock of 
entrepreneurialism in many communities in your respective 
districts. This has to change.
    Chairman Allen. Yes, I agree. Mr. Solem, you discussed the 
Biden-Harris Board's blocking charge policy in your written 
testimony. Can you expand on your comments, and give some 
examples of the way that blocking charge policy has been abused 
by unions and the Board to delay elections?
    Mr. Solem. Chairman Allen, thank you for your question. You 
know, I give a few examples in my written testimony on pages 8 
and 9, but just to pull one out. It was one of my colleague's 
cases, it was called Apple Bus Company, and Apple Bus Company. 
They filed for an election in 2017, and they did not get an 
election until 2019 because over the course of the next 2 years 
the union filed 15 blocking charges, eight of which were 
dismissed.
    The other ones were settled with non-admissions clauses, so 
there was never any proof that any of the allegations exist. 
When the day for the election finally came, the union did not 
even face the voters. They walked away. They disclaimed 
interest, which makes it look like they were filing just to 
delay their time and power.
    The blocking charge policy, which was brought back by the 
Biden Board is going to lead to more of this, that in fact, 
Member McFerrin's own dissent, dissenting from the Trump One 
Rule showed that roughly about 22.5 frivolous blocking charges 
were filed per year. The Trump Two Board should return to the 
Election Protection Rule and allow employees to get elections 
promptly.
    Chairman Allen. Okay. Yes, thank you. Again, I was for 4 
years ran a small business, and in fact Mr. Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier and I talk about the old times a lot, but I will 
tell you over my career things changed drastically, so it is a 
modern workforce today, a very entrepreneurial workforce.
    I was with a group last night. We did not even talk about 
ESOP programs and things like that. I remember that folks 
working at Proctor and Gamble there in Augusta, who were making 
nice wages, but they ended up millionaires because they were 
participating in the Proctor and Gamble stock program.
    I know that my greatest privilege as an employer was to 
give our workers an opportunity, our employees, it is like 
family actually, to provide for their family, provide for their 
church, their community and this great country. That is a great 
privilege, so please know that you know, employers are very 
dedicated too. I am sure there are bad actors, but for the most 
part if you are going to stay in business, you better take care 
of your folks, which is what we used to say.
    With that I yield back, and now recognize Ms. McBath from 
Georgia for your questions.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Ranking Member 
DeSaulnier, and to your staffs, and to our witnesses for being 
with us today. By my count, we have had roughly seven different 
anti-union and anti-worker hearings at the Full and 
Subcommittee level last Congress, and that was more hearings 
than we had on any other topic considered before this 
Committee.
    The majority is picking up right where it left off and 
trying to make it as difficult as possible for working 
Americans to organize a union and protect themselves on the 
job. Regardless of what may be said at these hearings, or how 
hostile to unions this President and this majority may be, the 
first section of the National Labor Relations Act clearly 
states that it is, and I quote, ``The policy of the United 
States to encourage the practice of collective bargaining 
freedom, and freedom of association.''
    That is the exact opposite of what we see from this 
President and House Republicans. Instead, we see efforts to 
change the status quo, to change the rules and make it as 
uncomfortable as possible for working men and women in this 
country to exercise their rights in the workplace.
    My Republican colleagues claim overreach by the previous 
administration but fully support this President illegally 
firing Gwynne Wilcox from the National Labor Relations Board, 
essentially freezing this important agency, and preventing it 
from carrying out its mission to protect workers from being 
wrongly fired for exercising their rights.
    Instead of changing the rules to make it harder for workers 
to organize, and more difficult for companies to voluntarily 
recognize a union, we should be ensuring that every American 
can freely exercise their rights in the workplace without the 
fear of being fired and losing their main source of income.
    The difference between Republicans and Democrats on this 
issue and so many others could not be more clear. The Democrats 
used our majority to save the hard-earned pensions of over 1.2 
million Americans, literally preventing people from having to 
go back to work in their old age, and helping them to enjoy 
their retirement.
    Republicans used their last majority under President Trump 
to change the law to prevent union workers from being able to 
write their dues off on their taxes. Now, they are using their 
current majority to extend tax cuts for the wealthiest 
Americans, while taking away nutrition and healthcare benefits 
from millions of families, and they are doing it all at the 
same time.
    Make no mistake, this majority is not a pro-union majority 
or pro-worker majority. As I mentioned earlier, President Trump 
illegally removed Gwynne Wilcox from the NLRB without a 
hearing, as required by law, just a week into the second term, 
showing that cracking down on unions was always their 
intention.
    Ms. Wilcox was not fired for negligence or for malfeasance, 
like so many others, she was wrongly fired for her commitment 
to maintaining a political independence of this important 
agency. She was fired for her refusal to abandon the rule of 
law in this country, and our long commitment to the idea that 
some government functions should be protected from special 
political interests.
    That commitment is what differentiates our country from 
corrupt authoritarian regimes, and that is what is at risk 
every day that this President is allowed to do these things 
unchecked. Ms. Abruzzo, beyond the fact that the removal of Ms. 
Wilcox is a true overreach of Presidential power, can you talk 
about why every American should be concerned about a President 
firing a member of the NLRB without a legitimate reason for the 
first time in history?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Thank you. Yes, it is all about protecting 
workers, and workers will not have an independent body to 
decide their cases. It is putting the scales--putting a thumb 
on the scales of justice, rigging the system. Corporations with 
money, and corporate billionaire donors will be able to 
influence the White House and be able to avoid liability. 
Worse, you get folks, decisionmakers at the Board that will 
call the White House and say ``hey, we have case against 
Amazon,'' or ``we have a case against Meta,'' or ``we have a 
case against Tesla or SpaceX, what do you want us to do here?''
    It is the opposite of correcting the power imbalance, and 
it is allowing for workers to have less safe working conditions 
and more inequities at the workplace and less voice.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you so much, and I yield.
    Chairman Allen. The gentlelady yields. I now recognize--it 
is my pleasure to recognize our great Chairman, Tim Walberg for 
your questions.
    Mr. Walberg. Well, I thank another great Chairman, and I 
appreciate the panel being here today. This is an issue that 
you know I have had concerns with for many years right now and 
card check in my opinion right now, does not serve unions well, 
with membership that feel at times that they are pestered and 
pushed in an unfair way to even consider unionization.
    Mr. Vernuccio, good to see you. Do you think the card check 
process is less fair than secret ballot elections, and what can 
be done to ensure fairness in that process?
    Mr. Vernuccio. Mr. Chairman, it is good to see you as well, 
and thank you for the question. Card check is absolutely 
inferior to a secret ballot election. We have heard testimony 
before this Committee time and again of workers being 
intimidated, workers being threatened, and coerced of not 
getting the full story on unionization, signing cards only to 
regret that signature.
    The secret ballot gives those workers the opportunity to 
have a private vote where they can reflect on unionization 
where there is not intimidation, where there is no coercion and 
make that choice just like we choose for any political office 
in the privacy of a voting booth.
    Mr. Walberg. Yes, I appreciate that. I contend that if 
unions really understood it, that this shows that the interest 
is not so much in the worker, but rather in just the operation 
of the union. Card check is wrong. Secret ballot is American, 
and we need to continue that.
    Mr. King, you devote a considerable portion of your written 
testimony sharing your perspective on the Faster Labor 
Contracts Act, which is appreciated by me. Based on your 
experience, negotiating collective bargaining agreements, what 
effect would you expect this bill to have on parties' abilities 
to reach a first contract?
    Mr. King. Nothing positive. I negotiated, Mr. Walberg, 
collective bargaining agreements for over 45 years, and many of 
those agreements were first contracts. While the Association 
comments Senator Hawley for starting the discussion, 
unfortunately, he just lifted provisions from the Pro-Union 
Act, the PRO Act and put them in a bill.
    As noted by my colleagues here this morning, that bill 
imposed by government fiat, an agreement on the parties, union 
and employers, if no contract is reached within 180 days, or 
similar in that timeframe, that is unrealistic.
    It has constitutional defects. It is seriously in conflict 
with the National Labor Relations Act. It was written without 
any input, any meaningful input from other stakeholders and I 
respectfully would disagree, and my Association does, with the 
entire approach that Senator Hawley is taking.
    Mr. Walberg. Along that line do you believe the Faster 
Contracts Act would result in contracts that are substantially 
different than the ones derived under current law?
    Mr. King. Perhaps. We have this outside group of 
arbitrators, Mr. Walberg, that ultimately is going to be 
required to write the contract for the parties, and if we go 
under what is interests arbitration approach, which is what is 
in the Hawley bill, the arbitrators generally just split the 
baby and come out somewhere in the middle.
    No meaningful collective bargaining occurs, so yes, they 
could be quite different, quite detrimental to both employees 
and employers. Again, this proposal is defective in so many 
different ways. It was not well thought out, and it is 
something that hopefully the House will not take seriously in 
any way, shape or form.
    Mr. Walberg. I hear you. Mr. Solem, your written testimony 
describes various bars to elections, even though the NLRA only 
has a 1-year election bar. Can you explain how all of these 
other election bars developed, and whether they apply to 
elections both certifying and decertifying union 
representation?
    Mr. Solem. Thank you, Chairman Walberg. Very quickly, there 
are several non-statutory bars, like the contract bar with 
prevents an election for up to 3 years when there is a 
collective bargaining agreement in effect, except during a 30-
day period, voluntary recognition bar, the successor bar.
    You cannot get an election when your employer sells its 
business. In terms of their development, I think former 
Chairman Miscimarra said it best, when he has developed as 
incumbent protection devices.
    Mr. Walberg. I think my time has expired, but I appreciate 
the thought. I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. Chairman, I am just following your example 
here. I now recognize Mr. Mannion of New York for his 
questions.
    Mr. Mannion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not mean to 
correct you, I am sure you are also a great boss, Mannion, 
which misspells to man union sometimes. Not a joke. Thank you 
all of you witnesses for being here today. Thank you, Ms. 
Abruzzo, for your leadership at the NLRB, and for the reforms 
you have achieved to support organized labor and protect 
workers' rights.
    I fear that some of that progress is now at risk due to 
this administration's efforts to weaken worker protections and 
undermine independence and capacity of the NLRB. Regional 
offices, especially in Central and UpState New York have been 
confronting serious staffing and resource shortages for years 
now, leading to unacceptable backlogs.
    Workers with valid complaints are waiting months, many 
times over a year for action. These are not just delays, they 
are denial of these workers' rights, and when we pair that with 
the proposed budget cuts to the NLRB, it is clear that we are 
headed in the wrong direction.
    The Ranking Member mentioned the popularity of labor 
unions. Well, in UpState New York, in Syracuse and Utica, where 
I am from, it is upwards of 80 percent, and the people who 
represent those union workers here in Washington and in Albany, 
are pro-union and pro-worker.
    If they are not, they are not there for very long, and it 
is not because of union bosses; it is because of trust, it is 
because of securing pensions, it is because of the grievance 
process, it is because of collective bargaining. The people of 
Central New York understand that the pathway to the American 
dream is not just a good job, it is a good union job, and you 
can look back at almost any family's history in this country, 
and you will find that good union job that took people out of 
poverty.
    Before my time in Congress, I was a President of a 400-
member teachers association, teachers, nurses, school 
psychologists and social workers. I led two successful contract 
negotiations, including one that was unanimously ratified 366 
to zero, so I understand the power of collective bargaining, 
and the importance of a fair and a functioning system.
    That is why I strongly support legislative reforms like the 
PRO Act, that would ensure workers' rights and that those 
rights would be better protected. Ms. Abruzzo, in your view, 
what statutory reforms beyond the adequate funding that you 
referenced, citing four items, four actions by this Congress or 
others, are most urgently needed to empower workers and ensure 
that the NLRB can fully carry out its function?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Thank you. As I said first of all you need to 
bring Board Member Wilcox back and have a quorum. You need a 
well steeped, well experienced labor lawyer in that role, 
otherwise there will be continued violations of the law. You 
know, corporations make a ton of money off the backs of their 
workers, and those that need the most protections and the most 
tax breaks are workers and their families.
    That is first and foremost. Second, as I said, there has to 
be independent decisionmaking at the Board. If there is not, 
then the power and balance will just get even more skewed, 
corporations will just use their money to influence the White 
House, and again, that affects workers detrimentally, and 
affects their workplaces, making them less safe, inequities, 
losing their voice.
    Third, as I said, pass legislation that actually is more 
fair and more balanced for protections of workers' rights. 
Cover more employees: domestic workers, agricultural workers, 
those that are misclassified as independent contractors. Cover 
more employers that are actually joint employers who are trying 
to avoid liability or are trying to not get at the bargaining 
table.
    Penalize violators of the law, that is how you deter 
violations from happening. Those are and of course, as you 
said, fund the NLRB. That is, you know, I believe the NLRB 
needs to be fully funded, and that requires at least 100 
million dollars more to their budget to actually protect the 
rights of workers in this country.
    Mr. Mannion. Thank you.
    Chairman Allen. The gentleman from New York yields. I now 
recognize my neighbor and friend across the river, 
Representative Joe Wilson, for his questions.
    Mr. Wilson Thank you very much Chairman Rick Allen for your 
leadership, and it is very humbling on this side. I get to 
follow two great chair people, can you imagine? Tim Walberg and 
Rick Allen, but I am grateful to be here, and with that too, I 
want to thank all the witnesses for being here.
    The National Right to Work Committee to me for decades has 
just been a pioneer for workers' rights and successfully 
promoting workers' rights and right to work laws in a majority 
of the American states. South Carolina is a prime example of 
success, with workers having rights to join a union or not.
    No forced unionization. The consequence has been that South 
Carolina now has become the largest manufacturer of tires in 
America, with Michelin Tires, Bridgestone Tires, Continental 
Tires, GT Tires of Singapore, and the leading exporter of tires 
of any State in the union. Additionally, South Carolina is the 
leading exporter of cars, with BMWs, the largest manufacturing 
plant, X-5's for everyone in Spartanburg, South Carolina, along 
with Volvo and Mercedes.
    Especially extraordinary is Boeing, with 10,000 jobs in the 
Charleston area building 787-10 jet liners, and my constituents 
directly benefit with Boeing by having tubing by Zeus 
Corporation, cable by Brisbee Incorporation, and with ATY 
providing the interiors.
    Last year I was happy to actually be in Riyadh, Saudi 
Arabia where they announced the purchase of 39 billion dollars-
worth of 787 jet liners, and of course President Trump topped 
that. Last month he worked with Qatar to buy 100 billion 
dollars-worth of 787s. We really benefit by having workers 
having a choice of jobs, unionization or not.
    Ms. Abruzzo, I want to thank you for your service with NLRB 
with Michael Nicaro, Sr. I am grateful that the National Right 
to Work Act has been introduced over the years. I am grateful 
to be the lead. 100 co-sponsors in the House, which erases 
forced dues clauses in Federal statute, without adding a single 
letter to Federal law.
    South Carolina's right to work law State has seen 
tremendous economic growth, as I have indicated, expanding 
economic freedom for businesses and workers, and we need to 
continue to promote job creation and ending forced unionization 
to extend workers' rights to the American people.
    Mr. Solem, the work that you do at the National Right to 
Work Foundation is so critical, and how is it that you assess 
the bill of workers choice to be?
    Mr. Solem. Thank you, Congressman. I think you just hit the 
nail in the head is that right to work, you know, drives job 
creation. If you look at a study that was done by Benjamin 
Austin, Matthew Lilly, who are at Harvard and Duke now, they 
found that there was higher employment and population growth in 
right to work states.
    You know, the best thing about right to work is not 
necessarily economic growth, it is about employee free choice. 
The economic growth is just a positive externality of that.
    Mr. Wilson. Indeed. The Trump administration is proposing 
to pursue a pro-worker agenda. What would you look to as a pro-
worker agenda?
    Mr. Solem. Yes, so how they can pursue a pro-worker agenda 
at the NLRB is to concentrate--the way I think about it is the 
three B's, blocks, stop blocking charges, stop bars, and 
enforce back and move to an opt-in, opt-out system, so 
employees no longer have to fund union politics without jumping 
through hoops.
    Mr. Wilson. Indeed. What a difference because during the 
Obama administration there was an effort to stop Boeing from 
being able to develop in Charleston. Out of the blue they came 
and acted against our Governor, Nikki Haley. They indicated 
that the plant could not be built.
    It already had 1,000 workers. It had 100,000 square foot 
facility, and NLRB came in and said you cannot do it, but thank 
goodness we also have a very good Attorney General, Alan 
Wilson, in South Carolina working with our U.S. Senators Tim 
Scott and Lindsey Graham, and it was a real team effort.
    With leadership, we were actually able to succeed. What a 
difference. It is inconceivable to try to block such a 
development, which has been so beneficial to all of American 
workers, and with that I yield back to our great Chairman, Rick 
Allen.
    Chairman Allen. I thank my friend from South Carolina for 
yielding, and now I recognize Mr. Takano for his 5 minutes of 
questioning from California.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chairman, Allen, and thank you for 
the witnesses for being here today. Ms. Abruzzo, I just want to 
followup on a question that got asked by one of my colleagues. 
I want to ask you, is card check required by law?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Sorry, so yes, by law in 1935 the NLRA gave 
employees the right to designate or select their collective 
bargaining representative. What that means is that they can 
sign cards, and if a majority of those employees support 
unionization, then that union can then bring that forth to the 
employer and seek voluntary recognition.
    Voluntary recognition is actually in the statute right now, 
and to Mr. Vernuccio's point, that is a majority of people who 
are supporting being represented by a union, and that is 
through cards, or some other mechanism that shows that they 
have majority support.
    Mr. Takano. Are employers or workers ever barred from 
asking for a secret ballot election?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Well, under the Cemex decision they are not. 
They can voluntarily recognize the union, that is their 
employees' choice, and they should respect their employees' 
choices, but they have the option under the Cemex decision to 
file a petition and get a Board conducted election.
    However, if they violate the law during the election 
process, between the filing of the petition and the election 
being conducted, in ways that do not allow for a free and fair 
election,they will be subject to a bargaining order.
    Mr. Takano. The assertion made earlier that somehow 
rulemaking, or the Biden administration had somehow done away 
with secret ballot election, is that not a correct assertion?
    Ms. Abruzzo. That is not a correct assertion.
    Mr. Takano. Employers or employees could request a secret 
ballot instead of the card check?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Correct, and oftentimes unions will file a 
petition to have a Board conduct an election.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you. Thank you. My colleagues have spoken 
about the seismic changes that have occurred for workers and 
organized labor since the Trump administration took office, 
including the unprecedented removal of member Gwynne Wilcox 
from the National Labor Relations Board.
    As you stated, the removal of Member Wilcox deprived the 
Board of a quorum. What does that mean for the workers on the 
ground, and can you give some examples of how this has impacted 
American workers?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Right now, the Board cannot make--issue any 
sort of decisions, so that means that workers who are fired, 
for example, cannot return to work, cannot get the back pay 
that they are owed. We are seeing delay tactics, whether it is 
in unfair labor practice cases where employers now are not 
settling cases, but rather litigating, and then letting it sit 
at the Board where a decision cannot be made, so those 
unlawfully fired people cannot get relief in any timely 
fashion.
    We are seeing it in election cases, where the employers 
will appeal after an election, and have it sit at the Board, so 
when a union wins an election, there will be an appeal by the 
employer, and then it will just sit, and so nothing can happen 
until the Board reaches a quorum.
    Third, just one other thing, they can also test cert, 
meaning that--and have been doing this, where union wins, they 
just say we are not going to recognize and bargain with you, 
with your representative, and then that is it. What happens is 
it undermines employee choice, and it undermines union support 
because the union cannot get to the bargaining table.
    Mr. Takano. Okay. I would like to note for the record that 
as of last week there were 459 cases pending before the Board. 
That is 459 cases of workers who won their union, but their 
bosses are refusing to bargain if their contract workers who 
have been fired, but have not gotten their jobs back, and 
workers illegally denied raises, including thousands of 
Starbucks workers waiting to get back pay.
    On February 18th, the Trump administration issued an 
executive order that mandates that the NLRB submit new 
regulations to the Director of Office of Management and Budget 
for review, but it also allows for OMB to control, and OMB's 
apportionment to advance the President's policies and 
priorities, requires NLRB staff to--oh my goodness, I have run 
out of time.
    I will have to let that--some other member ask that 
question. I will yield back.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman for yielding and now 
call on Dr. Onder from Missouri for your questions.
    Mr. Onder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the 
witnesses for taking time to come and be with us here today. We 
are holding this hearing today at an exciting time in the world 
of labor policy. The American people elected a President who is 
committed to improving worker freedom, so workers could have a 
stronger voice.
    Workers have a right to organize and join unions. At the 
same time, workers' rights of free speech and free association 
must be respected as well. Nowhere is this principle more 
important than in workplace unionization elections. Unions have 
at times hijacked these processes, sometimes with surprising 
results.
    According to research from the Institute for the American 
Worker, just 4.9 percent of current union workers have voted 
for the union that represents them. Unions frequently 
discourage workers who they know will vote against them during 
elections from voting altogether, leading to elections where 
only a handful of workers show up to vote and unionize an 
entire workplace.
    An example is the United Football League, where only 13 
percent of players voted the union into power. Unionization 
elections should empower American workers, not cherry pick the 
few workers who favor unionization. We must ask ourselves how 
we got to this point.
    A study published by the Institute for the American Worker 
in the Mackinac Center for Public Policy released this week 
entitled, ``Misread, How Legal Authorities Allow Tyranny of the 
Minority to Subvert Worker Enfranchisement,'' addresses this 
question.
    The study shows how flawed Court interpretations of the 
Railway Labor Act, and the National Labor Relations Act have 
given rise to our current predicament. Mr. Vernuccio, could you 
share with us some of the key findings of this study?
    Mr. Vernuccio. Thank you, Representative Onder, and it is 
good to be testifying in front of you again, this time in front 
of Congress, so thank you very much.
    Mr. Onder. Yes.
    Mr. Vernuccio. Thank you for your leadership on the Worker 
Enfranchisement Act that would require a quorum of workers to 
bring in a union in order for that union to have exclusive 
representation and represent all workers. The misread study 
that you cite, it has several findings, the first of which it 
sites an earlier Institute for the American Worker Study that 
shows that, as you said, only 4.9 percent of workers had ever 
voted for the union at their workplace.
    The reasons for that is many first, as you pointed out, 
unions can organize with a minority, a slim minority of workers 
voting for that union. It is also, as my fellow witness, Mr. 
Solem, has pointed out, the difficulty of removing a union when 
it is formed.
    This is why having a quorum or having as the clear language 
of the National Labor Relations Act says, the majority of 
employees select the union is so important.
    Mr. Onder. Yes. Well, no, thank you. Thank you for that. 
Yes, thank you for your mention of my own bill, the Worker 
Enfranchisement Act. I think clearly, we need a legislative 
solution to fix this problem. That is why my bill would require 
two-thirds quorum of eligible workers to be present at a 
workplace unionization election for the election to be deemed 
valid.
    I believe this ensures a fair elections process, and before 
we subject the entire workplace to monopoly representation by 
the union, this is important. My bill, as you know, would also 
require secret ballot voting. The NLRB has long recognized that 
in person voting via secret ballots results in the highest 
level of participation in union representation elections.
    The Supreme Court, in fact, in NLRB vs. Gissel Packing 
Company recognized that card checks are, ``admittedly inferior 
to the election process,'' and noted that, ``We would be 
closing our eyes to obvious difficulties if we did not 
recognize that there have been abuses, primarily arising out of 
misrepresentation by union organizers.''
    Mr. Solem, I was wondering if you could highlight some of 
those abuses, particularly in light of the NLRB's Cemex 
decision?
    Mr. Solem. Thank you, Congressman. Well, if you look at 
what Cemex does, it is rather radical. Cemex says we take an 
election, and we throw out the election results, install the 
union by government fiat to rule, even when they lost. I am 
running out of time, so just very, very quickly, card check is 
vastly inferior because all of the protections of the secret 
ballot election are missing in a card check.
    There is no secrecy, there can be coercion, and you can be 
asked time and time again to sign a card, whereas an election 
you just vote once.
    Mr. Onder. Thank you, I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman for yielding. Now, I 
recognize Ranking Member DeSaulnier for your 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Abruzzo, the 
importance of the independence of all independent Boards and 
Commissions, but in this instance in particular, the danger of 
that independence as prescribed by statute, could you address 
that, and the attack on that by this administration?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes. Thank you. Workers again will not have an 
independent agency, and independent decisionmaking, so what 
that means is that there will be thumbs on the scale of 
justice. The system will be rigged. It means the people with 
more money, corporate billionaire donors, and other 
corporations will be able to spend their money to influence the 
White House to then avoid liability.
    It actually encourages corruption, and those that are at 
the effect of this are workers who will have less power in 
their workplaces, and less opportunity to make gains, and to 
actually profit for the value that they add to their employers' 
profit-making enterprises.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. We have heard a lot about intimidation. You 
were there for 30 years. Maybe some of that just happens in 
these kinds of situations, but I think of the situation right 
now that is happening in Southern California with David Huerta, 
a labor leader for SEIU and what happened to him, and what is 
happening seems incredibly heavy handed.
    Could you speak to that? If we are going to be--get to what 
I hear all four of you say, and my Republican colleagues, is we 
want to balance. It certainly seems we are out of balance from 
our perspective, and that is an extreme example right now where 
fortunately, he has been released, and due process should go 
ahead if he has broken the law, he should be held accountable.
    The interpretation and the pretty heavy-handed application 
of the law in this instance and others is directed, I think, at 
labor, at silencing them.
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes, I thank you for that. You know, it's an 
injury to one is an injury to all, and this is an assault on 
immigrant communities who are being indiscriminately rounded up 
and detained, but it's also an assault on this esteemed labor 
leader. It is an assault on the labor movement, and it is an 
assault on all workers around the country and their rights in 
this country, including under the Constitution.
    Their right to free speech, their right to freely 
associate, their right to engage together, their right to 
protest peacefully, and the weaponization of the Federal 
Government to squelch those rights and squelch those actions 
cannot be tolerated. When I was General Counsel, I took an oath 
to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States 
from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
    Just because I was removed from my role as General Counsel 
does not mean that I do not feel that I had that duty to this 
day, and we all need to do our part to ensure that we remain a 
country of the people, by the people, and for the people.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Ms. Abruzzo, history is repeating itself to 
me right now. I remember growing up in Lowell, Massachusetts 
listening to my grandparents and their generation talking about 
the 30's when the Women's Federation of Textile Workers was the 
first labor union, and they were largely immigrants who 
realized how they were being abused.
    The immigration and I like to tease my friend, good friend, 
former Chairman Foxx, that when she says this country was 
founded on freedom, I always add, and cheap labor, so it is a 
dynamic in our history that is replaying itself right now in 
Southern California from my perspective.
    More people come here to aspire to get jobs, but on the 
other hand unfortunately there have been employers and 
political people who wanted them to work for nothing, or next 
to nothing. Could you talk to that? Whether it is the Irish, 
the Italians, or people from Central and South American now 
today. We keep going through this struggle, and we cannot 
forget the original sin of this country in terms of 
enslavement.
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes. I would say that, you know, rather than 
villainize immigrant communities, we should be embracing these 
hard-working people. They take care of our parents, they take 
and serve our food, they build our homes, they are a part of 
the fabric of this country, and so we should--you know, we have 
more in common than that what separates us.
    We should be embracing everyone who makes sure that this 
country can function as well as it does, so certainly I 
couldn't agree with you more, there should be no intolerance 
when it comes to whether it is immigrant population or the 
LGBTQ population for example.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. For the good of the country.
    Ms. Abruzzo. That is right.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman for yielding, and now 
it is my privilege to recognize our great Chairman Emeritus of 
this Committee, Ms. Foxx of North Carolina.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
it, and I thank our witnesses for being here. Mr. Solem, the 
NLRB, during the first Trump administration issued an Election 
Protection Rule, could you explain and provide examples of how 
this rule safeguarded employee free choice?
    I have some followups, so I will ask you to be as succinct 
as you can because I would like to get all my questions 
answered.
    Mr. Solem. Chairman Emeritus Foxx, I will be very succinct. 
It guarded employee free choice because it meant a mere 
allegation could derail an employee's decertification election.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you. Let me followup. In August of last 
year, the Biden-Harris NLRB issued a Final Rule titled, ``Fair 
Choice Employee Voice,'' which rescinded the Trump's Board's 
Election Protection Rule and reinstated the Obama era, 
``blocking charge ending policy,'' which allows certain types 
of unfair labor practice charges to ``block'' a Board's 
scheduled election.
    Can you explain the differences between the Trump and Biden 
policies as they relate to unfair labor practice charges, and 
do you believe the Biden era blocking charge policy effectively 
weaponized unfair labor practice claims to stop workers from 
voting to decertify a union?
    Mr. Solem. Chairwoman Foxx, you are absolutely correct. The 
difference between the two is under the Trump One Rule, a mere 
allegation could not stop an election from occurring. Under the 
Biden Rule means that any unfair labor practice that is filed, 
regardless of whether it is meritorious or not will stop an 
election, so it incentivizes filing charges just to increase 
delay.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you. Mr. King, welcome back.
    Mr. King. Nice to see you, Dr. Foxx.
    Mrs. Foxx. You are coming so often. You say in your written 
testimony that you believe the restrictions the Biden NLRB 
General Counsel imposed on parties engaged in settling unfair 
labor practice charges proved deeply harmful. Could you explain 
why this was harmful?
    Mr. King. Before General Counsel and her staff took an 
unrealistic approach to settlements it cost the agency millions 
of dollars. Pursuant to the agency's own formula, for every 
decrease in the settlement rate, the agency suffers at least a 
2 million dollar hit, if you will. The settlement rate, Dr. 
Foxx, under the previous administration dropped at least 5 
percent, so that is 10 million dollars right now.
    Finally, the time to get to settlement, when and if you 
could get to settlement, has lengthened considerably. The 
budget of the NLRB has been adversely impacted by the prior 
administration.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you very much. Mr. Vernuccio, in 2023, the 
Biden Board decided the Lion Elastomers case, which held that 
racist, sexist and vulgar rhetoric is permissible in the 
workplace, so long as it occurs in the context of union 
activity. What is your opinion of the Board's decision in this 
case?
    Mr. Vernuccio. I think it opens up the workplace for--it 
creates an unsafe work environment. It opens up the workplace 
to harassment, to vile language and conduct, and it prohibits 
employers from taking action to protect their employees. Those 
employees deserve that respect and that protection.
    Mrs. Foxx. We are quite well aware of the vulgarity that 
has been used by union bosses in recent times, and this is I 
think really disgusting. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back 
my time to you.
    Chairman Allen. Thank you, Dr. Foxx, and now I recognize my 
friend Joe Courtney for 5 minutes of questions from the great 
State of Connecticut.
    Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you to the 
witnesses for being here today. This is sort of the annual sort 
of, you know, union trashing event that we have in this 
Committee, and you know, it is interesting because I usually 
try to point out with the latest polling from Gallup is in 
terms of the American people's view of labor unions. Again, 
last December was the latest version, 70 percent approval, 
second highest in history.
    Again, that is not always been the case, if you go back 
even a couple decades ago where it had dipped closer to 50 
percent. You know, I also was privileged to join a bipartisan 
delegation to the Vatican a couple of weeks ago for Pope Leo 
the XIV's first papal mass, which was unbelievable to have an 
American pope up there.
    His choice of the name Leo, I think, sent a very powerful 
message because the last Leo, Leo the XIII, wrote the papal and 
cyclical Rerum Novarum in 1891, which recognized basically the 
dignity of work, and the right of workers to ``withhold their 
labor,'' as a way, again, of trying to improve their life.
    It was written actually as sort of a counter to the sort of 
rising Marxism and socialism in Europe, but again, it was a 
recognition that, you know, we have to in a free market 
economy, give workers a legal pathway to make sure that the 
value of their work is also reflected in terms of the labor 
market.
    Again, I think that is really what the genesis of the 
National Labor Relations Act was all about. A couple months ago 
in my district, we had a successful outcome of collective 
bargaining between Electric Boat and the UAW Marine Draftsmen 
Association.
    Again, Congress recognizing that we need to accelerate 
submarine construction, actually appropriated some wage 
improvement funds, which were incorporated into the collective 
bargaining agreement. 30 percent wage increase over the next 5 
years. The metal trades union, which had an earlier contract, 
was reopened to again, you know, match that level.
    Again, it is because frankly if we want to get people into 
the metal trades, we need to basically increase the entry level 
wage rates, as well as to retain workers who were further 
along. I have a column in the Connecticut Mirror, ``Collective 
Bargaining is Rebuilding America's Defense Industrial Base,'' 
which I would ask to be admitted to the record.
    Chairman Allen. Without objection.
    [The information of Mr. Courtney follows:]
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    Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, it is an 
example of where collective bargaining again helps individual 
workers, but it also provides a very efficient way to address 
critical needs in our economy and national defense. General 
Counsel, former General Counsel Abruzzo, maybe you could 
comment on that?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Thank you. Well, on that last point I would 
say that you know in 1935 the NLRA was enacted because 
employees lacked channels of communication with their 
employers. Congress rightfully said we need to empower workers 
here. We need to--we know there is strength in numbers, we need 
to make sure that they can collectively bargain through 
representatives of their free choosing and improve their wages 
and working conditions.
    Congress rightfully understood that through those improved 
negotiated wages and benefits it would help the failing 
economy. It helps everyone to have workers that have power to 
improve their wages, but also other working conditions: making 
sure there is no discrimination in the workplace, making sure 
there are safe workplaces, making sure there is a grievance in 
arbitration proceeding so that workplace conflict can be 
diminished. That is what the NLRA was enacted for, to promote 
productive labor management relations.
    I will just say one other thing, if there is no independent 
NLRB anymore, then I fear, and I expect, that workers are going 
to go back to the pre-1935 self-help activities of mass 
protests and mass strikes to gain or regain the benefits that 
they earned through their hard work.
    We take governance of our country and get the dignity and 
respect and recognition that they deserve for the value that 
they add to their employer's operations.
    Mr. Courtney. Build a stronger navy. Could you just respond 
to again the comments made about some of your actions as 
General Counsel?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes. I mean my goal over my almost 30 years at 
the agency has always been to educate workers about their 
rights and employers and unions about their obligations under 
the statute, and to protect workers' rights to freely associate 
with one another to improve their circumstances.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman for yielding, and I 
now recognize Ms. Lee of Pennsylvania for your questions.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am always a bit worried 
about the misinformation and the propaganda that exists and 
floats around, not just in this hearing, but also just from the 
administration as a whole about unions, and about what the NLRB 
is. Especially using the phrase ``restoring balance,'' when we 
are talking about the power dynamics between, you know, a 
corporate conglomerate, and a conglomerate of bus drivers or 
nurses, or fast-food workers.
    I think that is nasty work. There is a blatant attempt to 
mischaracterize what a union is and why they are necessary in 
the first place, so to clear it up we all understand that an 
individual worker has very little, if any, power at all over a 
corporation or CEO. Any other framing is disingenuous.
    People in power in this country would never answer to the 
needs of an individual, say, a janitor, alone, but when all the 
janitors come together in a union and work as a group, that is 
when the power, the boss, the worker, or the corporation has to 
respond. Power attacks unions because they create a more fair 
and balanced economy in favor of working-class people over the 
1 percent. Unions help us adjust the racial and gender race 
gap.
    Right now, nothing is more frightening to a wannabe 
autocrat than organized labor and an educated electorate. 
Corporations have grown accustomed to having an open lane to 
influence politics, however they see fit, and they want you to 
think that it is unfair that their political influence might be 
challenged by some workers, by working class people who have 
come together to advocate for themselves.
    Organized labor in this country is not about big business 
versus big unions. There is no such thing as big unions. 
Working class people versus the people in power or David and 
Goliath as some of us know it, but that is why they do not want 
you to unionize.
    That is why they want to divide union workers versus non-
union workers because their biggest fear is that all the Davids 
recognize that we are on the exact same team, and they realize 
that if we were to work together against the Goliath, then we 
would be significantly stronger.
    It makes a lot of sense why the rich and the powerful 
people want to attack unions and NLRB, who enforces workers 
rights to form a union. It is not because they think working 
class people have more power than a corporation, but it is 
because they are terrified of what would happen if they 
actually did.
    Over the last 20 years regional NLRB offices across the 
country have lost 50 percent of their staff, while cases have 
skyrocketed. In my district, Pittsburgh NLRB Region 6 office 
have experienced 30 percent decrease in staff without any 
reduction in the case load.
    Then the Trump administration has of course deputized DOGE 
to cut worker protections, and remove the Board member, to 
prevent the Board from maintaining or establishing a quorum. 
Nurses at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Magee 
Hospital have consistently advocated for investing in bedside 
nursing, retaining qualified nurses more direct care for their 
patients.
    UPMC met their concerns with mass layoffs, and they paid 
their former CEO 30 million dollars, and they are leasing a 50-
million-dollar private jet at the end of May. The nurses filed 
for a union election, but UPMC, our state's largest private 
employer, is trying to exploit the National NLRB's Trump-
induced dysfunction to claim our local NLRB office cannot hold 
a union election.
    Legal precedent and practice affirm that local labor boards 
are fully authorized to hold elections, even if the national 
board lacks a quorum. Ms. Abruzzo, is that your understanding?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes. The regional offices can of course 
conduct elections and certify the results. The issue is that 
there is too many employers out there that are abusing the 
processes and then pushing it to the Board by appealing when a 
union wins an election, and that appeal then gets stuck at the 
Board because there is no quorum.
    Ms. Lee. I have two questions, and we have 1 minute. Very 
quickly, can you speak to the broader impact the NLRB 
understaffing has had on workers over the last decade, and what 
the further cuts may do? If you could compare the NLRB's record 
on fairness and transparency during your time, in your tenure 
to now would be very helpful.
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes, thank you. In terms of the funding, so 
you know, we have--I say we, the NLRB has the same case intake 
now or around that than they had in 2011, and yet the staffing 
in the field offices has decreased by 62 percent. That means 
that these really dedicated, talented Board agents are doing 
more with less.
    They are trying to process cases as fast as they can, but 
they just cannot keep up because of the chronic understaffing. 
I do not understand the two current agency heads asking for 
less money when the agency needs even more money to ensure that 
they can protect workers in this country.
    Ms. Lee. I appreciate that. I think we could all go on and 
on about the power imbalance, but I will yield back, and thank 
you for the time.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentlelady for yielding. Now I 
call on my friend, Ranking Member Scott, for your questions, 
sir.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Abruzzo, is it true 
that members of unions tend to get higher wages, work in safer 
workplaces and get better benefits?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes, it is absolutely true.
    Mr. Scott. Do union members--does membership in a union 
reduce the racial and gender disparities and pay?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes.
    Mr. Scott. In a right to work State, if a person is not a 
member of a union, but a union pays for experts to negotiate a 
good contract, do the non-union members who did not pay any 
dues, get the benefits of higher wages and the other benefits?
    Ms. Abruzzo. They absolutely do.
    Mr. Scott. Mr. King, if a union wins an election fair and 
square, what happens if an employer just stonewalls and refuses 
to effectively negotiate? Without the fine provisions in the 
Hawley legislation, what happens?
    Mr. King. Well, right now Mr. Scott, a Section 885 charge 
would be filed by the union for failure to bargain in good 
faith. That charge is then processed by the agency. I just want 
to make one comment. The H.R. Policy Association and employers 
generally want a quorum on the Board. We want the Board to 
function, Mr. Scott, and in the case you just mentioned, we 
want the Board to expeditiously proceed.
    We urge in our testimony that the President fill two 
vacancies on the Board at present.
    Mr. Scott. Even with those vacancies, without any 
requirement then you are up to what is good faith and if the 
employer really does not want a contract, winning the election 
did not do much good, is that not right?
    Mr. King. Mr. Scott, I would agree with you.
    Mr. Scott. Unless you get that nice language that Mr. 
Hawley, Senator Hawley's proposing that he took right out of 
the PRO Act.
    Mr. King. The Pro Union Act, I think Mr. Scott.
    Mr. Scott. That comes right out of the NLRA, we are 
supposed to be encouraging collective bargaining.
    Mr. King. Mr. Scott, we would agree with you that contract 
negotiations, first contracts, could be done better. The Hawley 
approach is not the way to go.
    Mr. Scott. Ms. Abruzzo, if someone--if a business is 
committing an unfair labor practice, like firing a person for 
organizing unions, what are the sanctions?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Well, currently there are no sanctions because 
there is no functioning Board, so workers that are fired, and 
we see this, or the agency has seen this quite often that when 
employers get wind of an organizing drive, they try to nip it 
in the bud by firing the main union activist, for example.
    Right now, without a full quorum, workers--fired workers, 
cannot get the relief that they deserve.
    Mr. Scott. Even if they were to be a quorum, what would be 
the sanctions?
    Ms. Abruzzo. If there were to be sanctions, they would then 
have to come back. You know, an offer of reinstatement would 
have to be made, and they would get whatever back pay that they 
were owed as well as any direct or foreseeable pecuniary harms 
that resulted from the----
    Mr. Scott. The fact that it matters what they made in the 
meantime?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Correct, right, where they had to work 
elsewhere, that would be deducted, the interim earnings would 
be deducted. I do just want to say one other thing. You know 
whether there becomes a quorum, as Mr. King just said that he 
also, or the H.R. Policy wishes there to be a quorum as well, 
when you don't have independent decisionmakers, that quorum can 
be lost at any time because the President could just fire a 
decisionmaker whose decision he does not agree with.
    That just creates chaos at workplaces where you could just 
keep losing quorums because the President does not like the 
decisions being made.
    Mr. Scott. Can you say a word about captive audience 
meetings, how extensive they can be?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Yes. When I was at the agency--so first of all 
knowledge is power, and employers bank on the lack of knowledge 
of employees, especially during nascent organizing drives and 
violate their rights by firing them, by holding these captive 
audience meetings where they are subjected to anti-union 
rhetoric by their employer, often combined with threats, or 
interrogation and the like.
    Mr. Scott. Whose choice is it to join a union? Is it the 
employees or the employer?
    Ms. Abruzzo. It is the employee's choice of course.
    Mr. Scott. What--and did the employers have to say about 
it?
    Ms. Abruzzo. Nothing.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the gentleman for yielding. I 
believe that concludes our questions. Thank you panel for your 
expert testimony today. Now, I would recognize myself for a 
closing statement. Would you like to make a closing statement, 
Mr. Scott?
    Mr. Scott. Sure.
    Chairman Allen. Okay. All right. I recognize our Ranking 
Member Mr. Scott for a closing statement.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and once again I would 
like to thank everyone for coming, and thank our witnesses for 
speaking with us today, particularly Ms. Abruzzo for 
specifically for her testimony and good work on the NLRB. 
Committee Republicans would have you believe that labor unions 
are the enemy of workers, but as Ms. Abruzzo just testified, 
they do much better when they join a union.
    The fact is that the game has been rigged against workers, 
union and non-union. For decades, unions were popular with the 
American people because they enabled workers who strongly 
advocate for higher wages, safer workplaces and better 
benefits.
    Right now, the fundamental right to unionize is in danger. 
The Trump administration's relentless attacks against the NLRB, 
its staff and its independence are an attack on workers 
themselves. Without proper enforcement of the NLRA and 
independence of the NLRB, workers' rights are compromised.
    These are the people who provide for their families and 
simply want to come home at the end of the day with their whole 
paycheck, healthy and safe, and they deserve to be protected by 
an agency that works for them, not for law breaking employers. 
Forming a union must be a protected right, not an endless 
fight.
    By gutting the NLRB and eliminating its quorum, the Trump 
administration and congressional Republicans undermine working 
people, businesses, the economy and America as a whole. Thank 
you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Allen. I thank the Ranking Member for yielding, 
and now I will offer my closing statement. Again, on behalf of 
the members of the Subcommittee I thank our witness for giving 
your perspective on how the NLRB can fulfill its mission. 
Restoring balance and ensuring fairness and transparency at the 
NLRB I think is a worthy cause, and I think we have made it 
clear today we have got some work to do there.
    Today's hearing makes clear that we need labor policies 
that put individual worker choice at the forefront with 
reasonable expectations for job creators. You know it is hard 
to believe just 6 years ago we had the best economy in my--our 
lifetime. Workers' wages were increasing at a pace not seen 
before.
    You know, today we even have 7 million openings for jobs in 
this country, and I think in this Golden Age there is going to 
great opportunity for workers if we can put the proper policies 
forward that will make us again, the greatest economy in our 
lifetime because folks, it is all about jobs, jobs, jobs, and 
opportunity.
    I believe every American should be given that privileged, 
and also the privilege to be an entrepreneur as well, and so 
that's what we are fighting for. As our witnesses testified 
today, the NLRB should implement policies that allow employees 
the freedom to choose how they want to be represented, through 
the use of secret ballot elections and clear, predictable 
guidelines for employees, employers, and I again emphasize 
secret ballot.
    The NLRB should also serve as a neutral authority on the 
issues of joint employment and independent contractor status. 
The Biden-Harris Board, however, was not a fair or neutral 
agency. They put the interest of put labor first at every turn, 
and workers across America are paying for it today.
    I look forward to working with the members of this 
Subcommittee and administration to find much of these solutions 
that advance worker and employer freedom. This hearing is about 
the worker, it is not anti, it is about workers. The people who 
have made this country.
    This body did not create the greatest economy in our 
lifetime it is our great workers that created the greatest 
economy in our lifetime. I would like to again thank our 
witnesses for taking the time to testify before this 
Subcommittee today. Without objection, there being no further 
business, the Subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

    [Additional submissions from Rep. Onder follows:]
    
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    [Questions and responses submitted for the record by Mr. 
Aaron Solem follows:]

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    [Questions and responses submitted for the record by Ms. 
Jennifer Abruzzo follows:]
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