[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                WHEN PUBLIC FUNDS ARE ABUSED: ADDRESSING
                FRAUD AND THE THEFT OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL 
                         GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                      WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 21, 2026

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-51

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]        

               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
62-657                  WASHINGTON : 2026 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 
              
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking 
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Member
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York
THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin              Georgia
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California
JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia
LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina
WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York
ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
BRANDON GILL, Texas
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington

                                 ------                                

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
                        GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                       ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Chair

TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               LUCY McBATH, Georgia, Ranking 
TROY NEHLS, Texas                        Member
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
KEVIN KILEY, California              DAN GOLDMAN, New York
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           ERIC SWALWELL, California

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
                ARTHUR EWENCZYK, Minority Staff Director
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                      Wednesday, January 21, 2026

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
The Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and 
  Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona......     1
The Honorable Lucy McBath, Ranking Memer of the Subcommittee on 
  Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of 
  Georgia........................................................     4
The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     5
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio.........................................     8

                               WITNESSES

Scott F. Dexter, Independent Journalist
  Oral Testimony.................................................     9
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    12
Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, Acting Vice President, Policy and 
  Governemnt Affairs, Project On Government Oversight
  Oral Testimony.................................................    17
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    19
Nick Shirley, Independent Journalist
  Oral Testimony.................................................    29
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    31
Jennifer Larson, Chief Executive Officer and Founder, Holland 
  Autism Center and Clinic
  Oral Testimony.................................................    33
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    35

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted by the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal 
  Government Surveillance, for the record........................    57

Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Arizona, for the record
    An article entitled, ``Biden commutes sentences of 2 Illinois 
        megafraudsters,'' Dec. 13, 2024, Chicago Sun Times
    An article entitled, ``North Dakota judge blasts Biden for 
        setting fraudsters free,'' Dec. 18, 2024, North Dakota 
        Monitor
    An article entitled, ``Biden commutes roughly 1,500 
        sentences, pardons 39 in biggest single-day act of 
        clemency,'' Dec. 12, 2024, Detroit News
    An article entitled, ``The Illinois lawmakers furious after 
        Biden commutes sentences of State fraudsters,'' Dec. 13, 
        2024, The National News Desk
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``Biden clemency for convicted 
        fraudsters met with outrage: `Slap in the face,' '' Dec. 
        17, 2024, Fox News
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``Victims `shocked' after Biden grants 
        clemency to `kids-for-cash' judge and $54 million 
        embezzler,'' Dec. 13, 2024, CNN
    An article entitled, ``Biden sets presidential record on 
        pardons and clemency,'' Jan 20, 2025, Axios
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``Minnesota day-care expose journalist 
        strikes again--and part 2 names the `hub' of the fraud 
        wheel,'' Jan. 21, 2026, The Blaze
    A press release entitled, ``78th Defendant Charged in Feeding 
        Our Future Fraud Scheme,'' Nov. 24, 2025, U.S. Dept. of 
        Justice
    An article entitled, ``Suitcases filled with millions in cash 
        flew out of MSP airport; ex-TSA agent connects dots years 
        later,'' Jan. 21, 2026, MSN
    A press released entitled, ``HHS Freezes Child Care and 
        Family Assistance Grants in Five States for Fraud 
        Concerns,'' Jan. 6, 2026, U.S. Dept. of Health and Human 
        Services
    A press release entitled, ``Six Additional Defendants 
        Charged, One Defendant Pleads Guilty in Ongoing Fraud 
        Schemes,'' Dec. 18, 2025, U.S. Dept. of Justice
    An article entitled, ``Through the years: A decade of 
        investigating fraud Minnesota,'' Dec. 29, 2025, Fox 9
    A press release entitled, ``ICE Continues Arresting Worst of 
        the Worst in Sanctuary Minneapolis Including Pedophiles, 
        Gang Members, and Drug Traffickers,'' Dec. 5, 2025, U.S. 
        Department of Homeland Security
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``TSA flags suspicious cash outflow at 
        Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport,'' Jan. 21, 2026, MSN
    An article entitled, ``Foreign ATM? Somali cash exodus from 
        Minneapolis exponentially larger than other major US 
        airports,'' Jan. 21, 2026, MSN
    A report entitled, ``Report: SBA Cutting Off Grants to 
        Minnesota After Nick Shirley's Reporting on Somali 
        Fraud,'' Dec. 28 2025, Breitbart
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``Vance Praises YouTuber Nick Shirley 
        Reporting on Minnesota Fraud,'' Jan. 21, 2026, Breitbart
    An article entitled, ``Walz, Omar Using ICE Operations to 
        Distract from Fraud Scandal,'' Jan. 20, 2026, Breitbart
    An article entitled, ``In Somali fraud scandal, Republicans 
        probe evidence of a blue state election scheme,'' Jan. 
        18, 2026, Just the News
    An article entitled, ``Ringleader of $250M Minnesota welfare 
        fraud scandal ordered by judge to forfeit Porsche, luxury 
        goods,'' Jan. 6, 2026, New York Post
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``TSA Whistleblower: Somalis Regularly 
        Flew Out with Suitcases Stuffed with Millions in Cash,'' 
        Dec. 11, 2025, LifeZette.com
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``Minnesota Welfare Fraud Targets Somali 
        Hawala Money Transfers,'' Dec. 11, 2025, Fox News
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``Feds Probe Hundreds of Millions in 
        Suspected Somali Cash in Luggage Leaving Minneapolis 
        Airport,'' Jan. 7, 2026, Star News Network
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``USCIS Announces Results of Operation 
        Twin Shield, a Large Scale Immigration Fraud 
        Investigation,'' Sept. 30, 2025, U.S. Citizenship and 
        Immigration Services (USCIS)
      Not provide at the time of publication
    An article entitled, ``Noem Says Homeland Security is 
        Investigating Fraud in Minneapolis,'' Dec. 29, 2025, PBS
      Not provide at the time of publication
    The document 18 U.S.C. 666, entitled, ``Theft or Bribery 
        Concerning Programs Receiving Federal Funds,'' Cornell 
        Law
      Not provide at the time of publication
    The document 18 U.S.C. 641, ``Public Money, Property or 
        Records,'' Cornell Law
      Not provide at the time of publication
    The document 18 U.S. Code 1001, Statements or Entries 
        Generally,'' Cornell Law
      Not provide at the time of publication
Materials submitted by the Honorable Lucy McBath, Ranking Memer 
  of the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government 
  Surveillance from the State of Georgia, for the record
    An article entitled, ``Republicans' Claims of `Fraud' Are a 
        Pretext for Unpopular and Drastic Medicaid Cuts,'' Apr. 
        16, 2025, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
    An article entitled, ``Trump's Child Care Funding Freeze in 
        Five States Could Cost Families $400 Million,'' Jan. 8, 
        2026, The Century Foundation
    An article entitled, ``7 Ways Congress Should Sharpen Its 
        Oversight in 2026,'' Jan. 13, 2026, Project on Government 
        Oversight
Materials submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member 
  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Maryland, 
  for the record
    An article entitled, ``Trump's pardons forgive financial 
        crimes that came with hundreds of millions in 
        punishments,'' Jan. 20, 2026, NBC News
    An article entitled, ``Arizona Has Recovered Just 5% of 
        Taxpayer Dollars Lost in a $2.5 Billion Medicaid Fraud 
        Scheme,'' May 6, 2025, ProPublica
    An article entitled, ``Columbus mother and daughter among 15 
        indicted in pandemic unemployment assistant scheme,'' 
        Aug. 22, 2025, The Columbus Dispatch
    A letter to the Honorable Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Secretary, 
        U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, from 
        Representative Bennie Thompson, Oct. 21, 2025
    A press release entitled, ``Governor Walz Issues Executive 
        Order Directing State Agencies to Take Additional Steps 
        to Continue combating Fraud,'' Sept. 17, 2025, Governor 
        of Minnesota Office
    An Executive Order 25-01 entitled, ``Preventing Fraud and 
        Establishing the Financial Crimes and Fraud Section of 
        the Department of Public Safety,'' Jan. 3, 2025, Tim 
        Walts, Governer, State of Minnesota
    An article entitled, ``Trump calls Somali immigrants 
        `garbage' as US reportedly targets Minnesota community,'' 
        Dec. 2, 2025, The Guardian
    An article entitled, ``5 states sue Trump administration for 
        withholding billions in social safety net funds,'' Jan. 
        9, 2026, PBS
    An article entitled, ``Behind the Somali daycare panic is a 
        mother-and-son duo angling to be top Maga influencers,'' 
        Jan. 10, 2026, The Guardian
    An article entitled, ``Right-Wing Youtuber Behind Viral 
        Minnesota Fraud Video Has Long Anti-Immigrant History,'' 
        Dec. 31, 2025, The Intercept
    A fact check article entitled, ``Here's what's happening with 
        childcare fraud in Minnesota,'' Jan. 9, 2026, The 19th 
        News
    An article enitled, ``The Trump Administration Says It's 
        Cracking Down On Fraud. It Gave A Red State A Pass,'' 
        Jan. 13, 2026, Huffington Post
    An article entitled, ``Timeline: Fraud investigations stretch 
        across Walz's tenure,'' Jan. 6, 2026, NPR News

                                APPENDIX

Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Arizona, for the record
    An article entitled, ``Justice Dept. to Interrogate Tim Walz, 
        Four Other Top Minnesota Democrats,'' Jan. 21, 2026, 
        Breitbart
    An article entitled, ``Biden clemency list includes 
        individuals who defrauded taxpayers out of millions,'' 
        Dec. 17, 2024, Fox News
The Executive Order 25-10 entitled, ``Empowering State Agencies 
  to Continue Combatting Fraud,'' Sept. 17, 2025, State of 
  Minnesota, submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking 
  Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of 
  Maryland, for the record

 
                     WHEN PUBLIC FUNDS ARE ABUSED:
           ADDRESSING FRAUD AND THE THEFT OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS

                              ----------                              


                      Wednesday, January 21, 2026

                        House of Representatives

       Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in 
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Andy Biggs 
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Biggs, Jordan, Tiffany, 
Moore, Kiley, Lee, Knott, Cline, McBath, and Raskin.
    Mr. Biggs. Welcome, everybody, to today's hearing, and I 
mean everybody who is in here, and everybody who will come in 
here, is welcome to come in here and participate, and watch, 
and participate orderly.
    Our hearing is on fraud and theft of taxpayer dollars. I 
now recognize the gentlewoman from Florida, Ms. Lee, to lead us 
in the pledge of allegiance.
    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States 
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one 
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for 
all.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I now recognize myself for an opening 
statement.
    Today's hearing will examine the widespread and outrageous 
amount of fraud taking place in and around Minneapolis, 
Minnesota.
    Minnesota has lost billions of dollars in State 
administered and federally funded programs, due to organized 
fraud. Fraud networks operating in Minnesota dating back more 
than a decade, have submitted over $9 billion, that's a billion 
with a ``B,'' in false claims.
    Some high-profile cases in Minnesota include organizations 
and programs such as Feeding our Future, Early Intensive 
Developmental and Behavioral Intervention, Housing 
Stabilization Services, and Integrated Community Supports. Now, 
we're going to watch a video.
    [Video shown.]
    Mr. Biggs. Fraud within these programs have involved false 
claims, fictitious providers, and services not rendered, 
highlighting the need for stronger verification, monitoring, 
and enforcement to protect taxpayer funds.
    These fraudulent actions have robbed taxpayer funds 
intended to feed children, support individuals with autism, 
provide housing for low-income and disabled Americans, and 
deliver healthcare to Medicaid recipients.
    Since 2021, the DOJ has charged 98 defendants in Minnesota-
based fraud cases, 85 of whom are of Somali descent. Of the 98 
defendants, 64 have been convicted.
    DOJ has now undertaken extensive investigative action, 
which includes over 1,750 subpoenas, executing more than 130 
search warrants, and conducting more than 1,000 witness 
interviews.
    Since the start of the Trump Administration, the Federal 
response to fraud in Minnesota has intensified, following a 
series of high-profile cases involving State administered, 
federally funded programs.
    One of the initial instances of high-profile fraud in the 
State involved the nonprofit Feeding our Future, which was at 
the center of a $250 million COVID-19 related fraud scheme. As 
part of the scheme, fraudsters exploited Department of 
Agriculture USDA food programs designed to provide meals for 
children. Federal prosecutors ultimately convicted 57 
defendants and described the scheme as the Nation's largest 
COVID era fraud.
    The issue gained renewed national attention in late 
December 2025, following a widely shared YouTube video posted 
by one of our witnesses, Mr. Nick Shirley. Mr. Shirley's work 
highlighted suspected fraud in Minnesota childcare programs. 
His reporting prompted Federal authorities to intensify 
investigations, expand oversight, and coordinate multi-agency 
enforcement efforts.
    A week ago today, Mr. Shirley released a second video that 
documented alleged fraud in the transportation industry, 
intended to provide rides for children, the disabled, and the 
elderly. Mr. Shirley uncovered companies with questionable 
addresses, and vehicles intended to transport children, the 
disabled, and the elderly, that remained idle for extended 
periods of time.
    We look forward to hearing from Mr. Shirley about what he 
was able to uncover. How did we get here? Hopefully another 
witness, Scott Dexter, a former fraud investigator for the 
Minnesota Department of Human Services, can shed some light on 
that for us.
    I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that this massive wave 
of fraudulent activity didn't just have the consequence of 
ripping off taxpayer. It has drastically impacted legitimate 
organizations that are truly helping their neighbors. Jennifer 
Larson is here today to share her story about how this massive 
fraud has crippled her organization that serves autistic 
children.
    We'd like to think that these fraudsters will one day face 
justice, but it appears that is not always the case. For 
example, Yasmin Ali, a daycare and home healthcare owner 
charged with stealing millions from Minnesota taxpayers, after 
being granted bail disappeared before a trial and has not been 
located since.
    That was more than a decade ago. The tentacles of this 
fraud ring are widespread and include crimes other than fraud.
    For example, the aforementioned Yasmin Ali. Her brother, 
Adarus Abdulle Ali, pleaded guilty in 2009 to lying to a 
Federal grand jury about his knowledge of a group of young 
Somali men in Minnesota, who traveled to Somali to fight with 
Al-Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization against the 
transitional Federal Government of Somalia.
    We can also consider the fact that at least $700 million in 
U.S. cash transported via passenger luggage through 
Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. The incidents are 
all currently under Federal investigation with the majority 
carried by couriers traveling to Somalia, other African 
Nations, and the Middle East.
    While no definitive links to funding terrorism have been 
established yet, we know that hundreds of millions of dollars 
in cash are being transported to areas where foreign terrorist 
organizations are active. What could possibly go wrong?
    A whistleblower has alleged that TSA personnel at MSP, 
Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport, repeatedly 
identified and flagged routine encounters with Somali men 
carrying large suitcases filled with bundled cash, often 
exceeding $1 million.
    During an interview a former TSA agent at MSP from 2016-
2021, now a whistleblower, Liz Jacksa noted that she saw, 
quote, ``suitcases packed with millions of dollars in cash 
moving through MSP again and again, carried by the same type of 
couriers, which raised questions that she feels law enforcement 
and political leaders still haven't answered.''
    Jacksa further explained her repeated encounters with 
Somali men carrying suitcases packed with cash, and in one 
case, a bag filled with new passports. According to Jacksa, the 
volume, consistency, and profile of the transactions she 
witnessed were well beyond ordinary or everyday behavior.
    Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent has noted that the 
Department is currently investigating where Minnesota's 
taxpayer dollars are being placed.
    Additional reports show what Somali individuals in the 
United States send roughly $215 million abroad each year. On 
January 9th, Secretary Bessent indicated that the Treasury 
Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, FinCEN, 
informed four money transfer organizations that they are under 
investigation for their roles in the fraud scheme involving the 
theft of funds from social services in Minnesota.
    He also indicated that some banks in Minnesota are being 
investigated by the Internal Revenue Service's Civil 
Enforcement Division for allegations related to money 
laundering.
    As you can see, there's much to unpack surrounding these 
numerous fraud schemes taking place in and around Minneapolis, 
Minnesota.
    I would be remiss if I didn't suggest and urge additional 
investigation throughout this entire country. I know that in my 
home State of Arizona, our Democrat Attorney General came into 
office and quickly said that there had been $2.5 million in 
fraud just in the Medicaid program alone.
    In recent studies released over the last year in Arizona, 
it has been suggested that as much as $7.2 billion in fraud 
annually take place in Arizona's similar programs.
    This is not just a Minnesota issue, but it just happens to 
be at the forefront of why we are here today.
    I look forward to today's hearing, and I thank the Members 
and witnesses for taking part. I'll yield back and recognize 
the Ranking Member, Ms. McBath, for her opening statement.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for 
convening this hearing this morning to talk about the harm that 
fraud can cause.
    Thank you for everyone that is here this morning to 
testify. It is so necessary that we continue to investigate and 
prosecute all forms of fraud, including government fraud, which 
can turn many into victims.
    That is because a person committing fraud against a 
government program, steals from all of us as taxpayers and 
abuses the purpose, the initial purpose, of these programs.
    They harm the organizations that need these programs to 
operate and most importantly, they harm the people that the 
program is designed to help.
    Whether we're talking about a program that feeds school 
children, helps seniors find housing, helps people overcome 
addiction, or provides services to address disabilities, it is 
critical that the dollars that we invest in these programs 
actually serve the purposes that we have in mind when we, the 
lawmakers, created them.
    That's why the Department of Justice has always combated 
fraud, including prosecuting dozens of people for perpetrating 
fraudulent schemes in Minnesota in 2021, and under the Biden 
Administration.
    Prosecutions are not enough to combat or prevent fraud. The 
Biden Administration also established a COVID-19 fraud 
enforcement task force and increased oversight of programs that 
were being targeted by fraudsters.
    The Minnesota lawmakers have also taken steps to reduce 
fraud in their State, strengthening the State's ability to stop 
potential fraud sooner and improving investigations to hold 
those scammers accountable.
    Where President Trump has taken a very different approach 
to fraud, just last week, Trump added quite a few fraudsters to 
his growing list of people that he has pardoned. Not because 
they are deserving of a second chance, but because they hired 
his friends, back channeled a donation, or serve his political 
purposes.
    He has pardoned many people charged or convicted of fraud 
and other financial crimes, wiping away more than $1 billion in 
money that would otherwise have gone to victims of crime.
    President Trump has also fired inspectors general, 
instructed his DOJ to stop enforcing bribery statutes, and 
gutted the offices that investigate white collar crime.
    That is how we know this hearing is not really about fraud. 
It is about trust. The Trump Administration does not want you 
to trust these programs because if you don't trust them, 
they're easier to destroy them.
    They do not want you to trust entire communities because if 
you don't trust them, they're easier to intimidate. We cannot 
let that happen.
    We will continue to fight for robust and responsible 
oversight, and for the continuation of initiatives that make 
all our communities safer, healthier, and more resilient.
    Across the country, there are daycares, schools, hospitals, 
treatment centers, research facilities, nursing homes, fire 
departments, police departments, airports, and more, that all 
depend on State or Federal funding, not just to help those in 
need, but to serve every single one of us.
    If President Trump succeeds an attempt to freeze childcare 
funding across five states, which is temporarily blocked by a 
court order, the effects would ripple across families and 
businesses throughout our economy. It would affect more than 
500,000 children, and these are children that are not just 
within the State of Minnesota. The 500,000 children, their 
parents, the businesses, and organizations where those parents 
work, and the many people who depend on those businesses to 
fulfil needs in those communities.
    That's the fallout from just one program, addressing one 
need across only five States. If President Trump continues this 
assault on critical programs, the harms could be far greater.
    These latest attacks come on top of the cuts that President 
Trump and Congressional Republicans already forced through, 
which are taking healthcare from 10 million Americans and 
reducing food assistance to over 40 million Americans, 
including many, many children.
    We don't have to choose between programs that are 
susceptible to fraud and nothing at all. With proper oversight, 
we can make sure that every American is fed, that everyone can 
access housing and medical treatment, and that our daycares and 
our schools can keep guiding our children toward a better 
future.
    I look forward to hearing more today about how we can 
achieve this goal. I thank our witnesses for being here, and I 
yield.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentlelady yields back, and I'll recognize 
the Chair of Full Committee, Mr. Jordan. No, I don't recognize 
him right now, but I will recognize the Ranking Member of the 
Full Committee, Mr. Raskin, for his opening statement.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you kindly, Mr. Chair, and thank you to 
all of our witnesses for joining us.
    In a just world, the Judiciary Committee today would be 
investigating why a masked ICE agent shot three times in cold 
blood and killed an unarmed citizen, a 37-year-old mom, Renee 
Nicole Good. We'd be investigating why Trump's DOJ is harassing 
and investigating Renee's wife, instead of investigating her 
killer.
    We'd be asking why ICE agents are trained in basic CPR, but 
911 tapes have shown none of the agents performing CPR on Ms. 
Good. They left her bleeding alone in her car for almost three 
minutes, and definitively rejected the help of a man who came 
forward and identified himself as a doctor.
    We'd be investigating why in another Minnesota case, ICE 
agents deployed tear gas under the car of a family of eight 
people, including a six-month-old, a two-year-old, and two kids 
with severe asthma, who were just trying to get home from a 
basketball game. The baby stopped breathing and his mom had to 
administer CPR as they desperately waited for medical help to 
arrive.
    Our colleagues want to talk about fraud in Minnesota. Fraud 
that was already being investigated and prosecuted under the 
last administration. It is true that social services fraud, 
serious fraud, occurred in Minnesota. That's why, under 
President Biden, the Department of Justice opened multiple 
criminal investigations that, to date, have already resulted in 
more than 90 people being charged and 64 people being convicted 
of Federal criminal offenses.
    Indeed, Minnesota lawmakers acted to root out and prevent 
fraud going forward in the public benefits program. That's why 
last year, the Minnesota legislature passed legislation to 
empower the Governor to cutoff payments or to claw back funds 
whenever fraud is detected.
    That's why Governor Walz appointed the first ever Director 
of Program Integrity, to make sure the State is effectively 
investigating and preventing fraud and corruption in their 
programs.
    The fraud in Minnesota was discovered not by a right-wing 
social media influencer who has been harassing people in 
communities all over Minnesota in recent weeks, but by the hard 
work of real local-investigative journalists, brave 
whistleblowers, and State and Federal auditors.
    This fraud, which we must take seriously, is not unlike the 
$2.5 billion breathtaking Medicare fraud scheme uncovered last 
year in the home State of the Chair of this Subcommittee, as he 
himself mentioned or the massive COVID-19 unemployment 
assistance fraud scheme uncovered in Chair Jordan's home State 
of Ohio.
    Fraud is endemic in government all over the world. There 
are fraudsters attacking our public institutions trying to 
undermine them and rip them off. Even our President has been 
convicted of 34 counts of criminal fraud by a jury of his peers 
in New York, related to the fraudulent payments made to porn 
star, Stormy Daniels, and also civilly convicted in New York 
for different kinds of real estate fraud.
    Fraud is not headquartered in one State, or one 
municipality, much less one ethnic, racial, or religious 
community. President Trump couldn't resist the temptation to 
use fraud in Minnesota as an occasion to mobilize the power of 
the Federal Government to bully and intimidate first- and 
second-generation Somali Americans who live in that State.
    Many of the people convicted in the fraud schemes were of 
Somali ancestry. Under the pretext of cracking down on a fraud 
that had already been discovered, investigated, and prosecuted, 
Trump surged Federal immigration officers to Minnesota and 
aimed them at the Somali-American communities, calling the 
people who live there, repeatedly, garbage.
    This is despite the fact that it is a complete nonsequitur, 
obviously, to send immigration agents to conduct fraud 
investigations.
    The deployment of law enforcement resources against an 
entire ethnic community after the criminal prosecution of a 
small group of its members is to promote the sinister ideas of 
collective guilt and guilt by association, two doctrines that 
are emphatically rejected in Anglo-American jurisprudence and 
by our courts.
    The community targeted in Minneapolis is made up, 
incidentally, overwhelmingly of U.S. citizens. Ninety-five 
percent of Somalis in Minnesota are U.S. citizens, including 58 
percent of whom were born in the United States.
    Well, what is the Trump Administration's actual record on 
fraud? Well let's see, President Trump pardoned the big-time 
drug dealer and convicted fraudster, Juan Orlando Hernandez, 
the former President of Honduras, sparing him a 45-year 
criminal sentence after he brought in 400 tons of cocaine into 
our country.
    That's 800,000 pounds of cocaine that he said, quote, ``we 
are going to stuff up the nostrils of the gringos.'' Trump 
pardoned him.
    If you're interested in that particular sweetheart deal, 
that would be a great subject for a hearing, Mr. Chair.
    Just last week again, the President granted pardons to more 
convicted fraudsters. Julio Herrera Velutini was scheduled to 
be sentenced this month for participation in a political 
corruption and fraud scheme alongside his codefendant, the 
former Governor of Puerto Rico, Wanda Vazquez.
    In late 2024, Mr. Herrera was facing felony bribery charges 
in a different case. His daughter donated $2.5 million to the 
MAGA Inc., super PAC. Then, in May 2025, Mr. Herrera's lawyer, 
who had served on President Trump's legal team, negotiated a 
deal allowing him to plead guilty to a trivial misdemeanor 
offense instead.
    Several months later, Mr. Herrera's daughter donated 
another $1 million to MAGA Inc. What do you know? President 
Trump generously granted Mr. Herrera a full and unconditional 
pardon just last week.
    They're making fraud out of the pardon process in America 
with pay-to-play rules as they pardon recidivist, hardened, and 
unrepentant fraudsters.
    Well, indeed in total, President Trump has pardoned more 
than 1,600 people, depriving victims, survivors, and taxpayers 
of an estimated, check this out, $1.55 billion in restitution 
and fines owed to us, the American people, while shockingly, 
because other Presidents didn't do this but Trump did, while 
shockingly allowing corporate fraudsters and tax cheats to keep 
all their ill-gotten gains.
    This is a massive and unprecedented swindle from working-
class people and crime victims, as the administration gives all 
these ill-gotten gains right back to the criminal fraudsters 
who stole the money in the first place.
    Finally, Mr. Chair, President Trump has dismantled the 
infrastructure that actually prosecutes white-collar crime and 
fraud in America, actually roots out waste, fraud, and abuse. 
The Trump DOJ gutted the Public Integrity Section at DOJ that 
prosecutes government officials who break the law, and nearly a 
year ago, his DOJ suspended enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt 
Practices Act, which prohibits foreign bribery, saying all bets 
are off.
    He's gutted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which 
is the first and the only agency devoted solely, at the Federal 
level, to protect American consumers against being cheated by 
big financial corporations. The CFPB delivered $21 billion back 
to more than 200 million Americans, who were victims of fraud 
and other predatory business practices, and the administration 
has then gutted the CFPB, because they are on the side of 
corporate fraud and white-collar crime.
    That's the truth of what's going on there. They fired 17 
inspectors general, the independent government watchdogs whose 
job it is actually to root out waste, fraud, abuse, and 
corruption, and left 28 IG offices without Senate-confirmed 
leadership at all, allowing the corruption and the fraud to run 
rampant.
    If we're going to have a hearing about fraud in America, 
Mr. Chair, let's do it. Let's take in the full scope of what's 
taking place in our country.
    I yield back to you.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back, and I recognize the 
Chair of the entire Committee, Mr. Jordan.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be brief. I want 
to thank our witnesses for being here. Estimates are 
potentially as high as $9 billion; we're looking here at what 
appears to be a decade long scam and fraud.
    You can always look at one program I talked about a couple 
weeks ago in an oversight hearing, was this Feeding Our Future 
program, where taking Federal, Americans' hard earned tax 
dollars, taking that money and supposedly providing meals to 
children.
    The problem was, there were no meals and no kids. They were 
just stuffing it in their pockets. This is a great hearing to 
have. We appreciate the witnesses and the work that they have 
done.
    Ms. Larson and the work she does, and actually making a 
difference, doing a legitimate program. Mr. Shirley for 
uncovering this, and Mr. Dexter and others who are here.
    With that, I would yield back. I look forward to hearing 
from our witnesses and the hearing itself.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would recognize myself 
just for UCs. The first one is ``President Joe Biden commutes 
sentences for two of Chicago area's most notorious 
fraudsters.''
    Second, ``North Dakota judge blasts Biden for setting 
fraudsters free.''
    Third, ``Biden commutes roughly 1,500 sentences; pardons 39 
in biggest single day act of clemency,'' including fraudsters.
    Fourth, ``Illinois lawmakers furious after Biden commutes 
sentences of State fraudsters.''
    Without objection.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, could I enter some, as well?
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, please.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you much. This UC request is from ABC 
News, January 20, 2026, titled, ``Trump's pardons forgive 
financial crimes that came with hundreds of millions of dollars 
in punishment.''
    This one is, ``Arizona has recovered just 5 percent of 
taxpayer dollars lost in a $2.5 billion Medicaid fraud 
scheme,'' that's from ProPublica.
    From the Columbus Dispatch. ``Columbus mother and daughter 
among 15 indicted in pandemic unemployment assistance fraud 
scheme.''
    Finally, a Minnesota fraud scheme timeline from NPR News, 
``Fraud investigations stretched across Walz's tenure.''
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection. Now, without objection, all 
the opening statements will be included in the record, and we 
will introduce today's witnesses.
    Mr. Scott Dexter. Mr. Dexter is a former law enforcement 
officer having served for 28 years. He also served with the 
Minnesota Department of Human Services, Office of Inspector 
General, where he investigated fraud in the childcare 
assistance program. Thank you Mr. Dexter, for being here.
    Ms. Jennifer Larson. Ms. Larson is the Founder and Chief 
Executive Officer of the Holland Center for Autism, a clinic 
that provides services to children and young adults with 
autism.
    She started the Holland Center to serve families like hers 
that were not receiving adequate services and support 
elsewhere. Thank you, Ms. Larson, for being here today.
    Mr. Nick Shirley is an independent journalist. His recent 
investigations and videos have shed light on the scale of fraud 
in public benefit programs in Minnesota that are currently 
ongoing, and thank you Mr. Shirley, for being here.
    Mr. Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette is the 
acting Vice President of Policy and Government Affairs at the 
Project on Government Oversight (POGO).
    POGO is a nonprofit organization that investigates alleged 
wrongdoing by the Governor. Thank you, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, 
for being here with us today.
    We welcome all our witnesses and thank them for appearing 
today. We will begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise 
and raise your right hand?
    Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the 
testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best 
of your knowledge, information and belief, so help you God?
    Thank you. Thank you, you may be seated.
    The record will reflect that the witnesses have all 
answered in the affirmative, and with the instruction of Mr. 
Hedtler-Gaudette, I wanted to let all Members of the panel know 
that when you have a question for him, please say his name so 
he knows that you are addressing him, please.
    I want the witnesses to know that your written testimony 
will be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, 
we ask that you summarize your testimony in five minutes.
    We'll begin now with Mr. Dexter. You are recognized for 
your five-minute statement.

                  STATEMENT OF SCOTT F. DEXTER

    Mr. Dexter. Thank you. Chair and the Members of the 
Committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you 
today. My name is Scott Dexter, I'm a retired law enforcement 
investigator with 28 years of experience.
    Most of it was spent conducting criminal and financial 
fraud investigations, with experience in surveillance in 
operations.
    In 2013, after retiring from law enforcement, I joined the 
Minnesota Department of Human Services as part of a newly 
created investigative unit within the office of Inspector 
General.
    Our mission was straightforward, identify and investigate 
fraud within the childcare assistance program known as CCAP.
    I was one of the original four investigators hired, all of 
us were former law enforcement professionals with backgrounds 
in criminal investigations.
    Our cases were not selected based on the name of the 
center, the owner, or the community it served. They were 
selected based solely on tips, complaints, and the amount of 
CCAP funding being paid out.
    The highest funded centers were reviewed first. Many of 
those centers were referred to us through the public tip line, 
or by licensing inspectors who observed activity inconsistent 
with a legitimate daycare operation.
    What we found was deeply concerning. Many of these centers 
operated out of commercial spaces with windows totally covered, 
no visible play areas, and very few children ever present.
    Through surveillance, data collection, and review of 
attendance and billing records, we repeatedly documented 
patterns of over billing, nonexistent attendance, and in some 
cases, children being signed in for hours they were never 
actually at the center.
    Our investigative process was thorough and methodical. We 
collected licensing and billing data, installed covert 
surveillance cameras, reviewed hours of video, identified 
parents and employees, and calculated estimated overpayments 
based on actual attendance.
    Completed cases were then turned over to the Minnesota 
Bureau of Criminal Apprehension for search warrants, 
interviews, arrests, and potential prosecution.
    As our investigations progressed, we noticed a trend. Many 
of the centers receiving the highest levels of CCAP funding 
were owned and operated by Somali individuals, and the families 
served were predominantly Somali.
    This was not the basis for selecting cases, but it did 
become the basis for accusations against us. We were labeled as 
racially biased, despite the fact that our case selection was 
driven entirely by funding data.
    An outside review was launched into our investigative 
practices. We were questioned about how we selected centers, 
and how we conducted surveillance.
    Following that review, new restrictions were placed on our 
work, including mandatory panel reviews before we could move 
forward with investigations.
    Investigators were also pulled from conducting new or 
current investigations to enter data from all previous 
complaints received by DHS, into a newly created database, a 
process that took nearly a year to complete.
    These changes significantly hindered our ability to do our 
jobs effectively. Ultimately, in 2019, I chose to retire 
because the investigative process had become so constrained 
that meaningful work was no longer possible.
    Through collaboration with Federal agencies including the 
IRS Criminal Investigation Division, Homeland Security, and the 
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, we learned that 
millions of dollars in cash from the Somali community was being 
flown out of the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport by Somali 
couriers.
    At one point, nearly $70 million had been documented 
leaving the country halfway through a single year.
    Although we could not prove that the cash was obtained 
fraudulently, we strongly suspected that it was.
    We also encountered situations where Federal partners were 
prevented from opening cases due to concerns about political 
sensitivities surrounding the Somali community, and the refugee 
resettlement program.
    These decisions had real consequences, allowing fraud to 
continue unchecked.
    Throughout our work, we identified several loopholes that 
made CCAP highly vulnerable to fraud. Centers were allowed to 
bill for the full authorized hours, even when children were 
present for only minutes.
    Billing records could be submitted up to 30 days later, 
creating opportunities for manipulation. Attendance records 
were handwritten, unreliable, and often incomplete.
    Despite our recommendations, no biometric attendance 
systems, no electronic submission requirements, and no State 
installed security cameras, were ever implemented.
    Chair and the Members, the purpose of my testimony is not 
to cast blame on any community. It is to highlight systemic 
weaknesses that allowed large-scale fraud to occur, and to 
emphasize the need for stronger safeguards, better oversight 
and investigative processes that are allowed to function 
without political interference.
    Thank you for your time and your commitment to ensuring 
accountability within publicly funded programs, and I am 
prepared to answer any questions that you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Dexter follows:]
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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Dexter. Now, we're going to 
recognize Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, for your five minutes of 
opening statement.

              STATEMENT OF DYLAN HEDTLER-GAUDETTE

    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Chair Biggs, Ranking Member McBath, 
and the Members of the Subcommittee, I appreciate the 
opportunity to testify before you today on the important issues 
of preventing fraud, and protecting taxpayer dollars.
    My name is Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, and I am the Acting Vice 
President of Policy and Government Affairs at the Project on 
Government Oversight.
    We are a nonpartisan independent watchdog that promotes a 
more accountable, transparent, and effective Federal 
Government.
    We view it as our mission to combat abuse of power and 
corruption in the Federal Government, which includes working on 
rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.
    The unfortunate truth is that fraud in government programs 
is a fact of life. Since the U.S. Government has existed, fraud 
in government has also existed.
    For much longer than that, in fact. For as long as human 
beings have been organizing ourselves into societies and 
building institutions to govern those societies, there have 
always been those who will seek to take advantage.
    This is a harsh, but real truth related to the human 
condition, related to our fundamentally fallen and flawed 
natures.
    That said, it is still incumbent on every one of us to do 
what we can to prevent fraud, and to hold perpetrators of fraud 
accountable.
    This is especially true when fraud implicates hard earned 
taxpayer dollars, and critical public programs and services. 
This is true whether we're talking about fraud in the context 
of the Feeding Our Future program, or any other program in 
Minnesota. Whether we're talking about welfare fraud in 
Mississippi, which involved the participation of a world-famous 
Hall of Fame NFL quarterback.
    This is true whether we're talking about fraud in the 
context of it being perpetrated by large multinational defense 
companies in the context of multibillion dollar contract they 
have with the Defense Department.
    The point here is that fraud and the abuse of taxpayer 
dollars are not related to any particular geographic, 
demographic, or other boundary or characteristic.
    Why do these things happen so much? Mostly, they are caused 
by deep structural flaws, gaps, and weaknesses in our system of 
government.
    They're also driven by recalcitrance and resistance to 
change on the part of Federal agencies.
    To put it shortly, fraud is a systemic problem, and it 
requires systemic solutions. What are these solutions? I'm 
pleased to share a few of them with you today.
    We must first look at watchdogs, critical sources of 
information, and practitioners of oversight from within the 
Federal Government itself.
    I'm specifically talking about inspectors general, the 
Government Accountability Office, and whistleblowers. Rather 
than attacking, firing, undermining and intimidating these 
individuals and entities as this administration and its allies 
have done, we must strengthen, preserve, and protect them.
    We must enact reforms to make sure that IGs and GAO can 
perform their duties effectively and independently, and we must 
add additional safeguards to make sure that whistleblowers can 
blow the whistle without fear of reprisal, or retaliation.
    We must also take a long, hard look at the architecture 
currently in place for how we track, monitor, analyze, and 
assess Federal funding.
    To put it bluntly, that architecture is broken. Key 
resources like USAspending.gov are in desperate need of 
overhaul and modernization.
    We need to enhance and improve the quantity, quality, 
timeliness, and integrity of the data and information we 
collect on Federal funding.
    We need to promote more accountability, transparency, and 
compliance mechanism within the chain of spending for Federal 
funding.
    If we don't do this, we will never have a good grasp on 
where funding is going, where it's ending up, who is being 
helped by it, who is being missed by it, and what the ultimate 
impact is.
    Last, we must enact robust reforms and vigorous enforcement 
to crack down on corruption, cronyism, and conflicts of 
interest, which turbo charge waste, fraud, and abuse in the 
Federal Government.
    The Presidential Pardon is an acute example of this, with 
each of the last two administrations using the pardon power 
inappropriately to pardon convicted fraudsters.
    We must also promote reforms to crack down on the revolving 
door between agencies and industries, and to head off pay-to-
play politics, all which distort and corrupt decisions like the 
award of Federal contracts.
    The takeaway here is simple. Focusing on individual 
salacious, scandalous examples of fraud is akin to looking at 
the symptoms and not looking at the disease or the root causes 
of the disease.
    The Project on Government Oversight stands ready, willing 
and able to work with anyone here who wants to work on root 
causes and systemic solutions, so that we can actually get our 
hands around waste, fraud, abuse, and corruption in the Federal 
Government.
    Thank you for having me here today, and I look forward to 
answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette follows:]
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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, and I forgot to 
mention. When you have about 10 seconds left, I will just tip 
that so you will, so everybody will know that as well.
    Mr. Shirley, you're recognized for your opening statement.

                   STATEMENT OF NICK SHIRLEY

    Mr. Shirley. Awesome. I'm here today to speak on behalf of 
all hard-working, law-abiding taxpaying citizens here inside of 
the United States.
    I've helped bring to light widespread fraud that's 
happening inside our Nation, and we the people, have had enough 
of our hard-earned money going toward fraudsters as if it's no 
big deal.
    As I speak here, I want to ask everyone a question. How 
much do we trust when we pay our taxes, it's going to benefit 
our Nation?
    People erupted during the Boston Tea Party over just a few 
percentages as they believed they were being taxed without 
representation. Nowadays, we have the representation, but do we 
trust our representatives?
    My name is Nick Shirley, and I made a 41-minute video that 
I posted on platforms like X and YouTube. My video received 
over 100 million views, and it created instance change within 
our government.
    As the Federal Government launched investigations in 
departments such as Health and Human Services, froze over $185 
million in childcare funding, until businesses can prove they 
are legitimate businesses.
    I actually became aware of the fraud that was happening in 
Minnesota in June 2025, as I was there for a separate video and 
Minnesotans started reaching to me asking if I was making a 
video on the fraud.
    I said well, what fraud? This lady, she was a real estate 
agent and she says well, I'm having a hard time selling my 
properties because people are curious about these assisted 
livings that are popping up next door to some of the houses 
that we're buying, or the home healthcare clinics that are 
popping up. We don't know who is next to these houses that 
we're trying to sell.
    I said well, I'm not going to come and make a video if I 
don't have any proof. Therefore, I left Minnesota, and I 
continued to look for fraud in the best way I could.
    As I was getting my own information, a man by the name of 
David reached out to me and he said hey, I have been 
investigating this fraud for years now.
    I have been driving by these childcare centers. I have 
never seen a single child, and I have received information from 
the State of Minnesota as to how much money these places are 
receiving.
    I said great, let me come to Minnesota and we'll make this 
video about potential fraud that was taking place inside of 
Minnesota.
    We go to a daycare and I'm instantly surprised by what we 
see. We arrived, and it was an industrialized building, and 
there was two daycares registered at that daycare--at that 
building.
    The first thing I noticed is all the windows are blacked 
out, and there's no footprints in the snow of any children. 
There are no playgrounds, or anything that would make it look 
like it was a childcare.
    Above me a sign read, open 7 a.m. to 10 p.m., but there is 
nobody there. The doorbell did not even work.
    Then, we continued to go to other daycares and we noticed 
the same pattern. No children, blacked out windows, and one 
daycare, a learning center, spelled ``Quality Learing Center,'' 
instead of ``Quality Learning Center.''
    They had received $1.9 million, yet with that $1.9 million, 
they could not even spell learning right on their sign.
    Government Walz has said he's been fighting fraud in 
Minnesota since 2019, and said the buck stops with him. 
However, how long would it take for you to notice $1 million 
being--leaving your bank account and not knowing where it's 
going? That's essentially what had been happening in Minnesota 
for years as billions of dollars have been misplaced.
    Meanwhile, while people like Governor Tim Walz call people 
like me a White supremacist delusional conspiracy theorist, he 
actually decided to drop out of reelection because I believe, 
of how deep and extensive this fraud is.
    Thank you very much. Since my reporting, the HHS department 
froze over $185 million and to this day, not a single business 
has been able to prove proof of legitimacy.
    How fast would you be proving that you are a legitimate 
business if you have children to actually feed and to take care 
of? You'd be sending that paperwork instantly.
    I made this video to document the widespread fraud that has 
been taking place as I truly believe all fraud is bad. People 
like me, my generation, we're sick of seeing tax dollars go 
toward fraud.
    We just want to have the same opportunities that our 
fathers and our grandparents had, and when you see people 
making millions of dollars by committing fraud, it upsets 
everybody from all age demographics.
    I hope today we can have a good conversation, and we can 
all agree that fraud is bad, and that fraud is fraud, and I 
wish the best for our country, and that's what needs to be 
happening is to crack down on all forms of fraud.
    Thank you for having me and God bless the USA.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Shirley follows:]
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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Shirley. Now, I recognize Ms. 
Larson for your five minute opening statement.

                  STATEMENT OF JENNIFER LARSON

    Ms. Larson. Chair, Ranking Member, and the Members of the 
Committee, thank you for allowing me to speak today on this 
issue.
    My name is Jennifer Larson, I am the Founder and CEO of 
Holland Center in Minnesota. I have been an autism provider for 
over 20 years and started the organization for my son.
    I built Holland Center because families with children like 
mine, were desperate for help. Desperate for services and 
stability; desperate for somewhere they could trust their child 
would be supported and helped.
    Not sent home on a bad day; not babysat in a classroom and 
forgotten. We serve the children that don't succeed in public 
school settings.
    What started as a small program grew over two decades into 
four locations that families rely on not just for therapy, but 
for hope, routine, and survival.
    This work is a labor of love for me. Just like me, there 
are providers all over the State laboring with love to help 
these children.
    In this week, Holland and other programs all over Minnesota 
are collapsing. Not because we committed fraud, but because a 
crime ring was allowed to operate inside Minnesota's service 
system, and the government's clumsy response is now destroying 
legitimate long-standing providers, and devastating families 
that we serve.
    Families come to Holland; they do not have a backstop. 
Their children often receive 30 or more hours of therapy a 
week. These are not an extravagance; these are medically 
necessary.
    These children learn to communicate, regulate their 
emotions, reduce dangerous behaviors, and function in daily 
life.
    For many parents, therapy determines if they can work. 
Consistent staff and therapy prevent severe behaviors and 
regression. Structured care keeps children and their siblings 
safe.
    When services disappear, families do not just simply 
adjust. They face a crisis. For more than two decades, Holland 
has served hundreds of children year after year, employed 
hundreds of clinicians and staff.
    Operated under yearly on sight audits, inspections, and 
documentation oversight. Delivered real services to real 
children every day.
    We have always complied with everything the system 
required.
    Yet, within the last month, the State has withheld over 
$400,000 in Medicaid funds for my own program, and that number 
grows every single day.
    I had to infuse my personal funds to survive these weeks, 
but I can't do that any longer without payment.
    Let me be clear. We are a fee-for-service industry. When we 
can't pay our staff, we lose our staff and children lose care.
    Families do not lose appointments; they lose the people 
they trust. What happened in Minnesota had nothing to do with 
the ethnical, longstanding autism providers.
    What happened was organized criminal networks that 
exploited autism services by opening fake centers, billing for 
children that did not exist, billing for services never 
delivered, and stealing millions of taxpayer dollars in the 
process.
    These are not minor compliance issues. They are criminal 
enterprises. Families trusted that the government was 
protecting the integrity of the system. It failed.
    Now, instead of doing the obvious thing and targeting 
criminal actors, the response has been to freeze everyone's 
payments.
    That decision does not punish the criminals; it punishes 
innocent children and families.
    As Medicaid payments are delayed due to prepayment review 
by an insurance company that is in the business of denying 
claims, providers are reducing hours, cutting staff, and 
starting to close.
    Families are scrambling for alternatives that don't exist. 
Children are regressing; parents are leaving jobs to care for 
their disabled children.
    Autism therapy cannot be paused without consequences. Loss 
of services can erase years of progress in weeks, and abrupt 
disruption of services can cause life-long consequences in 
these children.
    This is not abstract harm. It is daily trauma for families 
already carrying an extraordinary burden.
    The simple solution to the problem is to send the criminals 
to jail and allow trusted providers with decades of clean 
audits and verified ownership structures to continue providing 
prescribed, ethical therapy, and go back to paying them what 
we've earned, and resume paying them on time.
    I built Holland for 20 years. Families built their lives 
around the care that we provide. All of that is risk of 
destruction today.
    Not by fraud, but by clumsy government response that failed 
to distinguish between criminals and caregivers. It treats 
children with disabilities--
    Mr. Biggs. The gentlelady will suspend. We've got a 
photographer there. We allow photographers in here, but not 
between the panel--the witnesses and the Members. You will 
please move. Photographer, please move.
    Ms. Larson. OK, thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. Like, right now.
    Ms. Larson. OK, we are sorry.
    Mr. Biggs. We will--
    Ms. Larson. All of that is at the risk of destruction--
sorry, can I continue?
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, please continue.
    Ms. Larson. Not by fraud, but by the clumsy government 
response that fails to distinguish between criminals and 
caregivers. It treats children with disabilities as acceptable 
collateral damage. Fraud must be stopped and criminals 
prosecuted.
    I'm a taxpayer, and I live in Minnesota. This is 
disgusting. Families and children should never pay the price 
for government failure. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Larson follows:]
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    Mr. Biggs. We will now proceed under the five-minute rule 
with questions. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from 
Wisconsin, Mr. Tiffany, for five minutes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Besides the work Mr. 
Shirley has done, I want to recognize Power Line, who has done 
yeoman's work, exposing this over the last decade as to what 
has happened.
    I just want to say, Ms. Larson, I live in Northern 
Wisconsin. There is an autism school that was started in my 
community.
    Where did we visit when we wanted to start that a decade 
ago? We came to Minnesota where you have been leaders in having 
good autism programs.
    I think about the tremendous fraud that has gone on in 
nutrition programs, housing programs, but is there anything 
more heinous than abusing an autism program?
    Ms. Larson. I can't imagine. It's so hard to believe that 
people are faking that children have autism and stealing money 
from the government.
    When I'm sitting here with my 25-year-old nonspeaker, and 
now children like my son aren't going to have services because 
they stole money from the government and faked these things.
    It's just, it is like I said, ``disgusting.''
    Mr. Tiffany. With what's going on right now, what are the 
families that you're serving, what are they saying?
    Ms. Larson. They're scared.
    Mr. Tiffany. What are they doing?
    Ms. Larson. Everybody's scared. There are centers or 
programs that have already shutdown. Staff are leaving. This 
week, I asked my staff who will take unpaid leave because we 
can't keep going like this.
    Like I said, I'm $400,000 plus in debt now, and I'm not 
assured these are going to get paid back. I went to a bank, and 
they wouldn't back the receivable because they said that's not 
a receivable. If it's prepayment review, you may not get it.
    Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Larson, none of this would have happened 
if fraud has not occurred, is that accurate?
    Ms. Larson. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Dexter, could something been done about 
this earlier?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes. As I stated in my opening testimony, in 
the years that I worked there, we identified how fraud was 
occurring, the loopholes that existed. We brought--
    Mr. Tiffany. What were some of the warning signs, Mr. 
Dexter?
    Mr. Dexter. Well, the fact that part of our job was to go 
and collect attendance records. We would find attendance 
records that were either incomplete or nonexistent.
    Obviously, there were times we found them to be fabricated 
because they were given to us way later. The same with billing 
records.
    They were allowed 30 days after the end of the billing 
period to submit billing records. They were not immediately 
available to us. It kind of allowed overpayments or double 
payments to be overlooked.
    We had the attendance record issue. We had the fact that 
there was no way to verify who was signing the children in and 
out. No way to verify what times those children were signed in 
and out.
    Mr. Tiffany. Could I do a followup here? In Wisconsin, we 
learned this month that Ibrahima Diop, a Minneapolis school 
finance boss, placed on leave for failing to submit required 
financial paperwork with the Minneapolis School District and 
for signing questionable contracts linked to the Somali fraud 
scandal, was hired by the Milwaukee Public School System as a 
deputy superintendent at a salary of $240,000 a year.
    Do you think it wise, might that be a warning sign that 
this person was involved, may have been involved with fraud in 
Minneapolis? Shouldn't they be concerned in Wisconsin that this 
is going--that they're hiring someone like that?
    Mr. Dexter. Well, if somebody that they hired has a past 
history and practice of doing that type of stuff, I would be 
very leery of it occurring again, or that being the basis that 
they're hired.
    Mr. Tiffany. Governor Evers refused to open the books and 
is blocking Federal audits of our food stamp and Medicaid 
programs, and he also vetoed four auditor positions in a recent 
budget. Do you think that is also a warning sign?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, if it's preventing--
    Mr. Tiffany. Or ill advised? Would that be a better way to 
pose the question?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, if it prevents the oversight and the 
ability to audit and look at the records to make sure it can 
have a check-and-balance system, that would be very unwise 
because again, that allows fraud to occur.
    Mr. Tiffany. Because Mr. Shirley, what is happening in 
Minnesota, it could be happening throughout the United States, 
isn't that correct?
    Mr. Shirley. Correct.
    Mr. Tiffany. If there's one thing we've learned or 
``leared'' as said in Minneapolis, isn't it possible that this 
is happening everywhere?
    Mr. Shirley. Yes, I believe it is.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields. I now recognize the 
Ranking Member of the whole Committee, Mr. Raskin, for his five 
minutes of question.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I thank all the 
witnesses for your excellent testimony. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, 
administration is systematically undermined government 
oversight.
    The President has fired more than a dozen inspectors 
general, not for any cause but seemingly just in retaliation 
for doing their jobs and to block unwanted investigations.
    President Trump has defunded the Counsel of Inspectors 
General on Integrity and Efficiency. He's removed independent 
leadership at the Office of Special Council and the Office of 
Government Ethics. Blockading whistleblowers and numerous 
investigations.
    What is your assessment, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, of the Trump 
Administration's apparent systematic opposition to internal 
oversight mechanisms in the Federal Government?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Thank you, Ranking Member Raskin. My 
assessment is that the last year or so has been one of the most 
antioversight and antiaccountability periods that I have 
witnessed in our Federal Government.
    The things you laid out as well as others, are the sort of 
proof in the pudding there. Speaking of things that should be 
giving us pause and raising red flags, that should all be 
giving us serious pause and raising serious red flags about how 
seriously people who claim to take oversight and accountability 
fraud, how seriously do they actually take it?
    Mr. Raskin. There's been a lot of attention given to Donald 
Trump's extraordinary use of pardon power, as in the pardon of 
violent insurrectionists and cop beaters.
    There's also been a forgiveness of a billion and a half 
dollars in restitutionary fines that various people had to pay.
    A lot of them are fraudsters. The DOJ in Trump's first 
term, brought bank fraud and tax evasion charges against 
reality TV stars Todd and Julie Chrisley.
    They were convicted in 2022. They owed more than $22 
million in restitution to taxpayers and to their victims. Then, 
Trump suddenly, inexplicably pardoned them and forgave all the 
money that they were supposed to be paying back to their 
victims.
    Todd Chrisley bragged publicly about his get out of jail 
free card, jubilantly exclaiming the Feds got F'd.
    Let me give you one other example. Trump on April 23rd, 
issued a pardon for Paul Walczak, a former nursing home 
executive who pleaded guilty to multiple tax crimes.
    What he was doing was taking millions of dollars from the 
nurses, orderlies, and doctors who worked for him at his 
facilities, took more than $10 million that way.
    Instead of giving it to the IRS for their taxes, he used 
the money to buy a $2 million yacht, and to pay for high-end 
jet travel, and to go shopping at Bergdorf-Goodman and Cartier.
    Well, he was sentenced to 18 months in prison for stealing 
his tax, his employees' tax withholdings, and he was ordered to 
pay his employees back $4.4 million for the money he looted 
from their accounts.
    He was going to have to pay that back, but then he got his 
mom to go do a glitzy fund-raising dinner for Donald Trump at 
Mar-a-Lago.
    She paid $1 million for her ticket. Then, right after Trump 
was inaugurated in his second term, Walczak petitioned for a 
Presidential Pardon arguing that he was the victim of political 
retaliation because they were Trump supporters.
    What do you know, President Trump issued a complete pardon 
with forgiveness of all the financial fines and restitution, 
that Mr. Walczak was going to have to pay back to his workers, 
the nurses, doctors, and orderlies.
    That was forgiven. That was $4 million taken away from the 
victims of a fraud and given back to the perpetrator of the 
fraud.
    OK, now if we had all day, we could go on all day with this 
because that's how their pay-to-play pardon system works.
    What does this do to our efforts to root out fraud and 
corruption systematically in the government, in crimes, and in 
different industries?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. I think it provides a perverse 
incentive structure. I opened my statement by saying that we 
all have an obligation and a responsibility to do what we can 
to prevent fraud and to hold perpetrators of fraud accountable.
    That last bit, holding a perpetrator of fraud accountable 
perhaps via conviction, doesn't mean much if all one needs to 
do is contribute to the right super PAC, or attend the right 
fund raiser and suddenly that accountability and that 
conviction is wiped away, including the financial restitution 
you mentioned.
    Those kinds of actions are at direct cross purposes with 
any effort to promote a broader, more systemic approach to 
rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time is expired.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much, and I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The Chair recognizes the Chair of the Full 
Committee, Mr. Jordan.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Dexter, let me make 
sure we get this right. You get tips and complaints. 
Whistleblowers or others come to you and tell you something is 
not right at these childcare centers in your State that are 
getting all kinds of taxpayer money. Is that right? That's how 
it started?
    Mr. Dexter. That is correct.
    Chair Jordan. Then, you go and do your work? You have got 
28 years' experience investigating things and specifically in 
the crime and financial fraud area, is that right?
    Mr. Dexter. That is correct.
    Chair Jordan. You go out and find these childcare centers, 
there aren't any kids. No kids are there. There are some, but 
it is like you don't see the playground. You don't see any kids 
at a place where they are supposed to be helping children. 
Then, you also find out most of them are run by Somali 
individuals. Is that accurate?
    Mr. Dexter. That is correct.
    Chair Jordan. Then you make some recommendations. You said 
here is what we should do. I think you put this on page 2 of 
your testimony. You said there are some basic things you should 
do. You said they didn't have a biometric attendance system. 
They should do that. They should have electronic submission 
requirements. They need security cameras. You made some 
recommendations.
    Mr. Dexter. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. Then what happened?
    Mr. Dexter. Nothing.
    Chair Jordan. They ignored your recommendations. It didn't 
stop there, did it? They ignored your recommendations. They 
called you a racist, right?
    Mr. Dexter. Correct.
    Chair Jordan. Typical Left. I always say the Left. Well, 
the Left will tell a lie. Big media will report it. You tell 
the truth. They call you a racist. Exactly what happened here.
    They ignore your recommendations. They call you a racist, 
but it even got worse than that if you can imagine. They 
started investigating you, is that right?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, we were interviewed by an outside firm for 
a report given to the Office of Legislative Auditor.
    Chair Jordan. What did that report look like? What did they 
say? Did they call you a--what did the report say?
    Mr. Dexter. The report basically questioned our 
investigative tactics, looked at how our unit was managed.
    Chair Jordan. Even though you had 28 years' experience in 
this particular area, tips and whistleblowers came to you, even 
though that was a whole catalyst for doing it?
    Mr. Dexter. Correct.
    Chair Jordan. Yes. OK. The end result is what? The end 
result is Ms. Larson, who is actually helping people, she 
suffers and the people she helps suffer. Isn't that right, Ms. 
Larson? Not to mention the fact that taxpayers are getting 
ripped off, but the people who do good work, who actually help 
people, you suffer.
    Ms. Larson. The disabled are paying for the money stolen.
    Chair Jordan. Yes. Why do you think all this is the case? 
All of this brings to me that this seems to be a typical 
pattern.
    In the end, you have got to ask why. When you point out 
what is going on, you have good people doing good work who 
suffer. The taxpayers are getting ripped off. Someone has got 
to ask, well, why did they take the--not follow your 
recommendations, call you a racist? Investigate you instead of 
just fixing the problem. Why did they do that? What could be 
the answer? Does anyone want to hazard a--Mr. Shirley, do you 
want to hazard a guess why that is the case?
    Mr. Shirley. Well, they simply use that as a deflection 
technique to make you not want to speak out against the fraud.
    Chair Jordan. Yes, it seems to me it is politics. Do you 
think it is politics, Mr. Dexter?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, I do.
    Chair Jordan. Yes, the people at the top, well, don't want 
to do this. We don't want to be called racist. In fact, we 
found that out a week ago in a hearing where we were looking at 
this Feeding Our Future Program.
    We found out they actually shut that program off for a 
while. They said time out. Something is not right here. They 
found the same kind of things you found, Mr. Dexter. They said 
we are going to stop payment and then it was restarted. The 
reason it restarted is because they threatened a racial 
discrimination lawsuit against the authorities there in 
Minnesota.
    OK. Forget about the fact that if we do this, we restart 
the money, we are going to hurt good people like Ms. Larson and 
the people she helps and rip off the taxpayers. We are going to 
do it all for politics.
    We also found, interestingly enough, the Attorney General 
of Minnesota was at a meeting with the key folks in this 
particular program and then they found out a couple weeks later 
they start sending him campaign contributions. It is politics. 
It is politics driving it all.
    That is why it is appropriate we are investigating here at 
the Congressional level. That is why it is appropriate that the 
Department of Justice has put in place a specific individual to 
focus on this not only in Minnesota but around the country.
    I talk too much. Anyone else wants to--I will give Mr. 
Shirley and Ms. Larson a chance to say anything you want. If 
not, I will yield 28 seconds to our Chair. I will 20 seconds, 
the remaining of my time to the Chair.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, would it surprise you that 
Joe Biden issued pardons to someone named Crundwell, who had 
the largest municipal fraud in the country's history and had a 
restitution amount of $53.7 million that was never paid on the 
commutation. Would that surprise you, sir?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. That would not surprise me. Actually, 
in my written statement, I outlined how pardons under the last 
administration, the Biden Administration, they also fall under 
the same pattern of pardoning convicted fraudsters. I am in 
agreement with you there.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Without objection--that time has 
expired. Without objection, Mr. Cline will be permitted to 
participate in today's hearing for the purpose of questioning 
the witness if a Member yields in time for that purpose.
    Now, we are going to go to Mr. Moore from Alabama.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. All this talk about 
pardons and the ultimate shyster, one of them was Hunter Biden. 
He got pardoned after Joe promised he wasn't going to do that 
on the way out. Anyway, that is another pardon for another day.
    Ms. Larson, I am impressed with your son. I honestly 
thought he was your attorney when you guys were sitting there. 
Were there early warning signs that could have been acted on 
that could have prevented the fraud schemes from growing to the 
scale that we see now?
    Ms. Larson. I would say yes. Looking back, the Somali 
community in Minnesota has a high prevalence of autism. I know 
that because I serve a lot of minorities in my centers. When 
these centers started popping up, I thought good for them. I 
took care of my son. We have had a waiting list for five years. 
I thought it was a positive.
    Then, it just started to go and go to where now it is 400 
plus of these. I had started--and I didn't Nick Shirley it--
that is a verb now, and go out and see because obviously, I am 
busy and that is not what I have time for.
    There were a lot of early warning signs. If anyone was 
actually paying attention--
    Mr. Moore. They would have caught it.
    Ms. Larson. Oh, 100 percent.
    Mr. Moore. How long have you been in business, 20 years, is 
that--
    Ms. Larson. Over 20 years.
    Mr. Moore. You went through a number of audits every year, 
right?
    Ms. Larson. Every year, onsite.
    Mr. Moore. How is it that these groups are getting away 
with it and you are under the thumb of the government auditing 
you every year. Why do you think that is?
    Ms. Larson. Either there is a double standard, and they 
don't, for whatever reason, have the same expectations that we 
do or they are just--
    Mr. Moore. Chair was on to something, maybe it is politics.
    Ms. Larson. Yes.
    Mr. Moore. Mr. Shirley, now I guess investigative 
journalist now known as Right-wing social media influencer, so 
can you confirm how many daycare centers you personally visited 
in Minnesota during your investigation?
    Mr. Shirley. During that first video, we went to around 
seven.
    Mr. Moore. How did you select those facilities? I know you 
said earlier, ``footprints in the snow.'' How is it that you 
identified those facilities to go to initially?
    Mr. Shirley. The man, David, in the video, he had the 
daycares with the CCAP funding. We just simply drove around 
Minnesota and around the Minneapolis area.
    Mr. Moore. It took a lot of courage to do that I would 
imagine, probably more so now than what it was when you 
initially did it. A hundred million views you said?
    Mr. Shirley. Yes, over 140 million views on that.
    Mr. Moore. What was Mr. David's background? How did you 
contact him? How did he call you or did you reach out?
    Mr. Shirley. He is simply--he is just a man in Minnesota 
who has a passion for his city. He had been seeing fraud taking 
place for years. Out of the all the thousands of messages I get 
on Instagram and other platforms, I just happened to read his. 
He provided me the information. I gave him a phone call.
    Mr. Moore. Then from there, just went to those different 
facilities. What was probably the most interesting thing as you 
were doing this. I saw the video. We watched it. I believe 
there were a number of facilities like in the same building.
    Mr. Shirley. Yes. In one building there was, I believe, 
three daycares, and there were no children. They were all 
receiving CCAP funding for separate daycares.
    There was one daycare we went to that one day it was closed 
by the government, and then that same day it was reopened 
underneath another name. They both received CCAP funding.
    Mr. Moore. I bet, Ms. Larson, they weren't getting audited 
yearly like you were.
    Ms. Larson. I would guess not.
    Mr. Moore. How many daycares are there in Minneapolis that 
we think are fraudulent right now, Mr. Shirley? Any idea? Are 
there an amount of money, total? Do you got any idea on that?
    Mr. Shirley. Well, they froze over $185 million and not a 
single business has been able to prove that they are a 
legitimate business yet.
    Mr. Moore. The $185 million for sure that we know.
    Mr. Dexter, I have got a question for you. What common 
patterns or warning signs usually indicate that the provider of 
the program may be committing fraud?
    As you were doing your investigations in 28 years of 
experience, what are some of the indicators that you see that 
should be a telltale sign or a red flag that there is fraud 
there?
    Mr. Dexter. Well, one of the immediate signs that we saw 
that when we went out to look first at the location where that 
was located. A lot of times they were located in commercial 
areas. I am not talking like strip malls or anything like that. 
I am talking about industrial areas where you wouldn't 
typically find a childcare center.
    We would notice that there was no play area. If there was 
any play equipment, it was bare minimum. Now, there was an 
exception that if there was a playground area within a very 
short walking distance, that would count. A lot of times we 
didn't see that.
    The most glaring thing was that when we watched the 
centers, we would sit and watch it for a couple of days before 
we even put up surveillance cameras, we would watch. We would 
see little to no children present. If anything, there would be 
a few kids.
    Mr. Moore. As you began to blow the whistle, the 
investigator became--
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Moore. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. The Chair recognizes the Ranking 
Member, Ms. McBath.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair. When he began his second 
term, President Trump broke from historic norms and fired 17 
inspectors general, people who serve as critical watch dogs and 
prevent waste, fraud, and abuse.
    A Federal judge held that these firing were illegal, but 
also held that she could not reinstate these people due to 
their important roles. As a result, the President has been able 
to appoint acting inspectors general who have themselves been 
removed after information to Congress that Trump officials are 
not cooperating with investigations.
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, how do these frequent firings affect 
the ability of the inspector general offices to prevent and 
investigate fraud?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. They fundamentally undermine it, and 
they also create a real chilling effect for the inspector 
generals who are left. The incentive to do something that could 
upset the powers that be, suddenly becomes a bit of a risky 
proposition. Between completely undermining them and the 
chilling effect, you are really dampening and damaging the 
ability to do real oversight.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you. How does the politicization of 
inspector general appointments affect the morale and 
effectiveness of career investigative staff that are within 
these offices?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. It also has a severely negative 
effect on morale and efficacy within the offices.
    Ms. McBath. I believe we can and should do more to prevent 
fraud and improve oversight so that all our government efforts 
are doing the most that they can to help the American people.
    When the Judiciary Committee marked up the Republican's 
partisan big ugly spending bill, I offered an amendment that 
would dedicate half of one percent of funding to be used for 
oversight, fraud improvement, and prevention. My Republican 
colleagues, they opposed the amendment.
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, in your opening statement, you spoke 
on steps that Congress could take to ensure robust, nonpartisan 
oversight. The Project on Government Oversight recently 
published an article, ``7 Ways Congress Should Sharpen Its 
Oversight in 2026.'' Can you pass him this?
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you. Thank you. Is there anything else 
that you want to highlight from those recommendations?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Sure, yes. I just want to pause to 
note that Congress really is the indispensable actor when it 
comes to doing oversight. They are supposed to be a somewhat 
adversarial relationship between the branches, and Congress is 
supposed to be the primary adversary when it comes to--there 
are two branches in conducting oversight. That is predicated at 
Congress taking that oversight duty seriously irrespective of 
who is in charge of the other two branches.
    There is a political will issue there with oversight but 
also there are some mechanical issues. Congress could do a 
better job of holding hearings that are a bit more bipartisan, 
a bit more focused on the facts as opposed to the sizzle of a 
given anecdote or scandal. Really trying to get at root causes 
and really trying to take hard, deep looks at the underlying 
structural reasons why things like fraud happen.
    It is not as sexy. It is not going to get you as many views 
on social media. It is going to actually ideally lead to long-
term, sustainable, durable reforms that can really crack down 
on the problem.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you. The short-lived DOGE office was 
supposed to cut fraud. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, what did it 
actually do, and how did its actions actually affect everyday 
Americans?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. DOGE was a complete failure. Even on 
its own terms, the primary progenitor of DOGE claimed that he 
was going to find $2 trillion. Then, he moved that down to $1 
trillion in waste, fraud, and abuse cutting spending. In 2025, 
we actually spent more money than we spent in 2024.
    At the opening of this Fiscal Year in October, we ran the 
largest opening month budget deficit ever run before at $285 
billion. We have hollowed out the key functions of a bunch of 
agencies. Any claim that DOGE was effective either on cutting 
spending, promoting effectiveness, or efficiency are just flat 
out undermined and undercut by the facts.
    Ms. McBath. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, because you have done 
investigations yourself, did you do any followup on Mr. 
Shirley's video?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Personally, I took a look at what had 
been done to try and backstop what Mr. Shirley indicated in his 
video by a professional journalist at CBS and by professional 
oversight practitioners like the inspector general in 
Minnesota. As it turns out, they had a difficult time 
substantiating what Mr. Shirley was claiming to be true in his 
video. In fact, they found countervailing evidence, including 
having been provided security footage by one of those daycares 
of children being dropped off the very day that Mr. Shirley was 
supposedly there.
    In my view, I would have to err on side of believing the 
professional journalist at CBS and the professional oversight 
practitioners at the inspector general's office.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you. I am out of time. I yield.
    Mr. Biggs. The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from 
Florida, Ms. Lee.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. On that note, it is 
important that we return to a discussion of how these 
investigations were conducted and the type of evidence that led 
to the discovery of this massive fraud.
    One thing that is clear based on the testimony today is 
that this is not just a Minnesota problem. This is a warning 
sign for every State that is administering large scale programs 
using taxpayer dollars. We need to get to the bottom of how to 
identify this type of fraud and prevent it from continuing to 
occur.
    Mr. Dexter, I would like to go back to your testimony, both 
of which you have shared with us already about your extensive 
background investigating and analyzing program fraud, and the 
methods that you used to identify the theft of taxpayer dollars 
in this particular type of case.
    In your written testimony, you mentioned that case 
selection and investigations were begun in part by looking at 
funding data. I am interested in how your office would use 
things like funding data, use statistics, and other information 
and evidence to begin to develop these cases.
    Mr. Dexter. Well, it wasn't hard to find the funding 
amounts. We looked at the centers that received CCAP funds and 
then we listed them out. We had what was originally referred to 
as the top 100 list. It was based off of the centers receiving 
the most CCAP funding. That was generated through the billing 
process and the people that administer the funds.
    Ms. Lee. When you looked at that list, did it turn out that 
there were certain facilities that were outliers in some way, 
either because they were receiving a larger amounts of funding 
based on student population that appeared typical or because of 
where they were located. Tell us how you identified which 
facilities warranted further review?
    Mr. Dexter. Well, when we started looking at the centers 
that were receiving the most funds, the investigators were each 
assigned cases, were assigned centers, and when we first 
started looking into what the billing pattern was or what the 
billing amount was, how many children were being billed at 
these centers. We would have centers that were billing for 120 
plus children and looking at the different days and times, 
establishing a pattern that just was outside the realm of a 
typical daycare center.
    Ms. Lee. In other words, you used objective data and 
evidence as the foundation to proceed further with your 
investigations?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, to start the investigation, that's what we 
would begin with.
    Ms. Lee. In your experience, wouldn't you also say that 
this is the typical method, or a typical method, for beginning 
and analyzing a potential fraud case of any nature in any 
community?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, because to do the investigation, you first 
have to find out if it warrants an investigation and to what 
extent that investigation would be.
    Ms. Lee. Now, isn't it also correct--you mentioned in your 
testimony systemic weaknesses that allowed the large scale 
fraud even after you had developed substantial evidence that 
there was, in fact, fraud occurring. There were institutional 
and systemic barriers that prevented you from successfully 
moving these cases through prosecution and indeed in your 
testimony you note that in 2019, you chose to retire because 
the process had become so constrained that meaningful work was 
no longer possible.
    Tell us about the barriers and ultimately that profound 
frustration that led you to retire.
    Mr. Dexter. When we were originally hired--when this unit 
was originally created and we were hired, the understanding was 
that our job was going to be to investigate fraud and stop it. 
As we proceeded through with that, it wasn't by our doing that 
it turned out that the centers we investigated were 
predominantly Somali.
    Once that was kind of brought out to light, the roadblocks 
that were put in front of us, being called racist, being called 
before these boards to be investigated, and basically it wound 
up turning us into auditors. We wound up just simply reviewing 
attendance records and matching them up with billing. There 
really wasn't a lot of substantial investigation anymore, and 
most of our cases wound up going before administrative hearings 
rather than criminal.
    Ms. Lee. Which in the end, allowed this pattern of conduct 
to continue to occur, did it not?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentlelady yields. The Chair recognizes now 
the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Knott.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you, Mr. Chair. To my colleague from 
Florida, thank you for that line of questioning. I am going to 
pick up where she left off.
    In regard to the testimony that we have heard today, the 
other side of the aisle makes us believe or wants us to believe 
that the fraud has been effectively stopped. That they 
aggressively pursued it, they prosecuted it, and it is under 
control. Is that your interpretation of where we are, Mr. 
Dexter?
    Mr. Dexter. I believe fraud is still going on. I don't 
think anything has changed from what I have seen with Mr. 
Shirley's videos. I am seeing in his videos the exact same 
things that we were seeing back from 2014-2019 when I worked 
there.
    Mr. Knott. It is astounding to me when I was looking at 
some of the footage, the evidence, there was almost a sense of 
we are owed this money that we are stealing. How dare you 
investigate us? Did you ever encounter that type of attitude 
when you were performing these investigations?
    Mr. Dexter. There was an underlying attitude like that, 
that we were taking away their money and that it wasn't fair to 
them.
    Mr. Knott. Your investigations, sir, was the fraud as 
obvious as it seems to me that it appeared in the videos and 
the other evidence that I reviewed?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, as a matter of fact when we would go out 
to do our investigations, one of the things that we would have 
to do, or I would have to do, is we would scout out a location 
for our surveillance cameras that allowed us a direct line of 
sight to the centers, all their accesses.
    A lot of that, because of the location where we were in 
these industrial commercial areas, it meant we had to go to the 
businesses and ask them permission. The No. 1 comment they 
made, was ``oh, you mean that daycare center over there where 
there are no children?'' Everyone else saw it.
    Mr. Knott. In regard to your investigation, sir, I am 
assuming that you did not just investigate daycare fraud. What 
other types of fraud did you investigate?
    Mr. Dexter. No, our function was strictly childcare fraud.
    Mr. Knott. OK.
    Mr. Dexter. Some of that overlapped into--even though we 
didn't investigate it, a lot of it was also tied into the 
medical transportation.
    Mr. Knott. Did you ever investigate single entities that 
were appearing as though they were committing fraud in multiple 
avenues?
    Mr. Dexter. I'm sorry. Can you say that--
    Mr. Knott. Was there one facility that was a daycare. It 
was also associated with medical transport. Were there people 
who were double-dipping in the fraud in your investigations?
    Mr. Dexter. Not that we saw as far as different 
organizations, but there was where one daycare center owner 
owned multiple daycare centers. What we saw was more within the 
daycare center.
    Mr. Knott. Yes. Ms. Larson, thank you for being here. I 
echo my colleague's sentiment from Alabama. Your son is very 
impressive. What is his name?
    Ms. Larson. His name is Caden.
    Mr. Knott. Caden, thank you for being here today. You look 
sharp. You are doing great. Let me just talk to you about these 
various audits that you were subjected to. How rigorous were 
they?
    Ms. Larson. Very. They would be there for hours. They would 
come in and say I want to see these files for these kids on 
this date at this time.
    Mr. Knott. Was there anyway that you could have tricked 
them, concealed it? If you had not had any children there, 
would it have been possible?
    Ms. Larson. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Knott. In regard to the services that you have rendered 
first, thank you.
    Ms. Larson. Thank you.
    Mr. Knott. Then, in terms of the budgets that you require, 
how does it make you feel when you hear firsthand accounts that 
hundreds of millions of dollars had been taken out of the 
country in suitcases to hostile nations?
    Ms. Larson. I can't even respond the way I feel about that. 
I will say it is still happening. To the question you--there 
are only two autism centers that have actually been shut down 
of all these that are going on.
    Mr. Knott. Yes.
    Ms. Larson. What they are doing is this prepayment review 
and putting us through this AI system at Optum to look for 
suspicious claims, which is why we are being--our funds are 
being held. It is not going to work.
    Mr. Knott. Yes.
    Ms. Larson. I am going to tell you it is not going to work. 
They just need to do what Nick did. Go and see that there are 
no kids there. Go and check it out.
    Mr. Knott. What Mr. Dexter did. Data driven review without 
any preconceptions, without any prejudices and then holding the 
fraudsters to account. When he did that, he was called a 
racist.
    Ms. Larson. Yes.
    Mr. Knott. It is astounding. It is astounding. You said 
that you helped many patients, diverse patients.
    Ms. Larson. Yes.
    Mr. Knott. How have those patients been harmed by this 
administration in Minnesota, the Walz Administration?
    Ms. Larson. They are all being harmed if I shut down next 
week.
    Mr. Knott. Is that what you are up against?
    Ms. Larson. Well, I haven't gotten paid now. The last date 
of service was December 5th. I am over $400,000 in debt. My 
payroll is $250,000 every two weeks. We get paid every two 
weeks. On Sunday night I will know if I get any money. I 
haven't been paid a dime. All my claims had been held.
    I am preparing to--apparently, Minnesota, too, I can't just 
pause services. If I pause my services, then DHS can say, I am 
sorry you have lost your license to serve the kids through this 
program. I don't know what they think we are supposed to do.
    Mr. Knott. Unbelievable.
    Ms. Larson. Yes.
    Mr. Knott. Well, again, thank you for being here. I 
appreciate all the testimony. Sorry I didn't get to everybody 
else. There are a lot of questions. Chair, I yield back.
    Ms. Larson. Thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields. I recognize the gentleman 
from California, Mr. Kiley.
    Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Shirley, thank you for 
your testimony today and the work that you have done.
    Americans hear these numbers of the fraud that we have, 
whether it is $10,000, $10 million, or $10 billion, sometimes 
the numbers, you almost become desensitized to it. The way that 
your video was able to show people the fraud in real life 
actually happening opened a lot of eyes, and this helped to 
catalyze a level of scrutiny that we really should have had 
before.
    You mentioned in your testimony that you think what you 
discovered in Minnesota that this is not isolated to that State 
but likely exists in other parts of the country as well, 
correct?
    Mr. Shirley. Correct.
    Mr. Kiley. What makes you think that?
    Mr. Shirley. Well, now you are seeing, since I posted that 
video, lots of other people have started to go to other 
locations, for instance in Ohio, in Maine, or in California. We 
are also seeing similar fraud taking place in other daycares, 
for instance, in a lot of other locations.
    Mr. Kiley. I have a particular interest in California, 
being from that State. We know there has been a lot of fraud. 
There was $32.6 billion that has been confirmed in unemployment 
insurance fraud. There are $1.2 million fraudulent community 
college applications.
    Have you gotten any sense or have you seen any signs there 
that is similar to what aroused your suspicions in Minnesota?
    Mr. Shirley. Yes, the fraud in California might even be 
worse than the fraud in Minnesota.
    Mr. Kiley. What makes you say that?
    Mr. Shirley. Well, $24 billion is missing for homelessness. 
They have been trying to build this train for years, yet there 
is hardly anything to prove for that, buyers.
    Mr. Kiley. Yes, those are good points. You looked at--let's 
run through a couple of those. Because I mentioned the areas 
where we have confirmed fraud, but then you also have these 
areas where you have so much spending and then we look at the 
result from that spending and there is nothing.
    The $24 billion in homelessness, and yet the homeless 
population went up, and a State audit found that they couldn't 
even figure out where the money went or what the outcomes 
linked about spending were. Is that something that is kind of a 
red flag for you?
    Mr. Shirley. Yes, it is a major red flag, and you don't 
even have to be smart to know that it's a red flag.
    Mr. Kiley. Well, unfortunately, our State legislators 
haven't managed to figure that out or at least the Governor 
hasn't. What are you saying about him?
    Mr. Shirley. They are not smart. It is so obvious. That is 
what we saw in Minnesota is how complicit the government has 
been in enabling this fraud to happen.
    Quality Learning Center had over 90 violations and yet they 
continued to give that daycare $1.9 million.
    Mr. Kiley. Yes, that is a great point, that the political 
accountability just hasn't been there and that is what enables 
it to continue.
    Then, you mentioned the high-speed rail as well. There has 
been about $18 billion spent so far. No track has been laid and 
not a single passenger has ridden the train. When you spend $18 
billion on a train and there is no train, does that raise 
suspicions for you?
    Mr. Shirley. Yes.
    Mr. Kiley. You think that might be something worth looking 
at?
    Mr. Shirley. For sure.
    Mr. Kiley. We also had a $650 million 911 service that they 
scrapped after six years so absolutely no value from it. Maybe 
that is another example where there might at least be 
questions.
    Mr. Shirley. I think you have got a lot in California.
    Mr. Kiley. All right. Well, we will look forward to seeing 
what you find. We are certainly trying to use whatever tools we 
have here to bring more accountability to California as well.
    Mr. Dexter, I wanted to also ask you a couple of questions 
about your work. Because you have extensive experience on the 
law enforcement side trying to detect fraud. That is actually 
how in California we discovered the EDD fraud and the 
unemployment fraud, it wasn't the State suddenly figuring it 
out. It was district attorneys who came together and 
investigated and, in fact, pointed to the fact that the State 
had let this happen and failed to heed their warnings and 
hadn't taken basic fraud detection steps.
    Is this something that you encounter? What kind of internal 
controls make it so fraud is more difficult and what type of 
lack of internal controls makes it so that fraud is easier?
    Mr. Kiley. I would say the biggest thing was the fact that 
when we tried to investigate this, once we started bringing 
cases forward and it showed that the number of centers that we 
investigated were Somali, the biggest roadblock was the fact 
that they didn't want to follow through on these cases. They 
shut down investigations. They made us, in light of the report 
from this outside management firm, we spent nearly a year 
pulled away from our investigations because one of the things 
they determined was that when our unit started, we didn't have 
a proper case management system for recording and keeping track 
of the tips.
    As investigators, we instead had to spend nearly a year 
entering past complaints made to DHS into a newly created 
database. We couldn't do our investigations because of that. 
They kept us from doing our work basically.
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, the States that make fraud detection a 
priority have less fraud than those that actively contravene 
efforts like yours.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired. I 
recognize the Ranking Member Ms. McBath for some UCs.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to ask 
unanimous consent to enter into the record an article, 
``Republicans Claims of Fraud Are a Pretext for Unpopular and 
Drastic Medicaid Cuts.''
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair. Oh, I am going to have some UC.
    Mr. Biggs. Yup, please go ahead.
    Mr. Raskin. Actually, forgive me. I have a handful of them 
here, Mr. Chair.
    First, a letter dated October 21, 2025, from Representative 
Bennie Thompson to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., regarding the 
decision to rescind the $101 million penalty imposed on 
Mississippi.
    A press release dated September 17, 2025, titled, 
``Governor Walz Issued Executive Order Directing State Agencies 
to Take Additional Steps to Combat Fraud.''
    An Executive Order 2501 titled, ``Preventing Fraud and 
Establishing the Financial Crimes and Fraud Section of the 
Department of Public Safety,'' signed by Governor Tim Walz on 
January 3, 2025.
    An article dated December 2, 2025, titled, ``Trump Calls 
Somali Immigrants Garbage as U.S. Reportedly Targets Minnesota 
Community.''
    An article dated January 9, 2026, titled, ``Five States Sue 
Administration for Withholding Billions in Social Safety Net 
Funds.''
    An article dated January 10, 2026, titled, ``Behind the 
Somali Daycare Panic is a Mother-and-Son Duo Angling to Become 
Top MAGA Influencers.''
    An article dated December 31, 2025, titled, ``Right-Wing 
YouTuber behind Viral Minnesota Fraud Video has Long Anti-
Immigrant History.''
    An article dated January 11, 2026, titled, ``Fact Check, 
What is Really Happening with Child Care Fraud in Minnesota.''
    Finally, an article dated January 13, 2026, titled, ``The 
Trump Administration Says It's Cracking Down OnFraud. It Gave A 
Red State A Pass.''
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection. The Chair recognizes Ms. 
McBath again for another UC.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I ask unanimous consent 
to enter into the record an article titled, ``Trump's Child 
Care Fund Freezing in Five States Could Cost Families $400 
million,'' by Julie Kashen of The Century Foundation.
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection. I recognize myself for a 
series of UCs.
    From Fox News, ``Biden Clemency for Convicted Fraudsters 
Met with Outrage, Slap in Face.''
    From CNN, ``Victim Shocked After Biden Grants Clemency to 
Kids for Cash Judge and $54 Million Embezzler.''
    From Axios, ``Biden Sets Presidential Record on Pardons and 
Clemency.''
    Also, ``Minnesota Daycare Expose Journalist Strikes Again 
and in Part 2 Names the Hub of the Fraud Wheel.''
    An article, ``Seventy-eighth Defendants Charged in Feeding 
our Future Fraud Scheme,'' from the U.S. Attorney's Office, 
District of Minnesota.
    An article, ``Suitcases Filled with Millions in Cash Flew 
Out of Minnesota Airport, Ex-TSA Agent Connects Dots Years 
Later,'' from MSN.
    From U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, ``HHS 
Freezes Childcare and Family Assistance Grants in Five States 
for Fraud Concerns.''
    From the U.S. Attorney's Office, District of Minnesota, 
``Six Additional Defendants Charged, One Defendant Pleads 
Guilty in Ongoing Fraud Schemes.''
    This is from the local Fox News in Minneapolis, ``Through 
the Years, a Decade of Investigating Fraud in Minnesota.''
    From the U.S. Department of Homeland Security release, 
``ICE Continues Arresting Worst of the Worst in Sanctuary 
Minneapolis, Including Pedophiles, Gang Members and Drug 
Traffickers.''
    From MSN, ``TSA Flags Suspicious Cash Outflow at 
Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport.''
    From MSN, ``Foreign ATM, Somalia Cash Exodus from 
Minneapolis Exponentially Larger than Other Major U.S. 
Airports.''
    From Breitbart, ``SBA Cutting Off Grants to Minnesota Over 
Reports of Somali Fraud.''
    An article, ``Vance praises YouTuber Nick Shirley reporting 
on Minnesota fraud.''
    An article, ``Walz and Omar using ICE Operations to 
Distract from Fraud Scandal.''
    From Just the News, in ``Somali Fraud Scandal Republicans 
Probe Evidence of a Blue State Election Scheme.''
    From the New York Post, ``Ringleader of $250 million 
Minnesota Welfare Fraud Scandal Ordered by Judge to Forfeit 
Porsche and Luxury Goods.''
    From LifeZette.com, ``TSA Whistleblower, Somalis Regularly 
Flew Out with Suitcases Stuffed with Millions in Cash.''
    From Fox News, ``Minnesota Welfare Fraud Targets Somali 
Hawala Money Transfers.''
    From the Star News Network, ``Feds Probe Hundreds of 
Millions in Suspected Somali Cash and Luggage Leaving 
Minneapolis Airport.''
    From USCIS, ``USCIS Announces Results of Operation Twin 
Shield, a Large Scale Immigration Fraud Investigation.''
    From PBS, ``Noem Says Homeland Security is Investigating 
Fraud in Minneapolis.''
    From Cornell Law, this is the 18 U.S.C. Section 666, 
``Theft or Bribery Concerning Programs Receiving Federal 
Funds.''
    Also, same source, 18 U.S.C. Section 641, ``Public Money, 
Property or Records.''
    Also from same source, 18 U.S.C. 1001, ``Statements or 
Entries Generally.''
    Without objection. I now recognize myself for my five 
minutes of questioning.
    I have read all your statements. I do thank you, Mr. 
Hedtler-Gaudette, for your recommendations. Mr. Dexter also had 
some recommendations. I think those are prescient. I think 
those are important.
    I also have to bring some additional information about this 
just because it is in my nature. I got to do it.
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, you have been talking about the IGs 
because you were asked about the IGs. Do you know how many 
cases, for instance, criminal cases, are being investigated, 
say, by the Department of Homeland Security IG right now?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. I don't know the number off the top 
of my head, no.
    Mr. Biggs. Would it surprise you there were 650 ongoing 
cases with 200 of those being COVID related?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. That would not surprise me, no.
    Mr. Biggs. Do you know how many audits they have going 
right now?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. No.
    Mr. Biggs. They have 60 audits going on right now with 
another 20 investigations going.
    That sounds to me like the IG there, at least, and DHS is 
not being chilled because of the appointment of temporary IGs. 
Am I wrong on that or am I misconstruing that?
    Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. One thing about the DHS IG, Mr. 
Joseph Cuffari, is he was actually appointed under the first 
Trump Administration. He has remained ever since. We actually 
at the Project on Government Oversight have long recommended 
that Mr. Cuffari be fired because he has had a long and 
demonstrated track record of slow walking investigations at 
DHS, particularly when it comes to abuse of force and other 
issues with DHS agents.
    Mr. Biggs. The Oversight Committee for the IGs didn't 
adhere to that recommendation. Anyway, I felt that point needed 
to be made.
    Additionally, Mr. Dexter, you looked at some of the same 
kind of physical evidence that Mr. Shirley looked at with 
regard to physical presence at the various daycare facilities 
that you were examining between 2014-2019, is that true?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes.
    Mr. Biggs. You saw basically the same kind of physical 
evidence that Mr. Shirley exposed?
    Mr. Dexter. That is correct.
    Mr. Biggs. You also looked at funding data, and you also 
had whistleblowers.
    Mr. Dexter. Yes.
    Mr. Biggs. I find it interesting that somehow local news, 
which reported the fraud, other local news reporters reported 
on the fraud, credibly agree with the findings of Mr. Shirley. 
Is that what you have seen as well, Mr. Dexter?
    Mr. Dexter. Yes, Fox 9 News in Minneapolis, they followed a 
lot of our cases and did stories on them.
    Mr. Biggs. The very notion of trying to discredit Mr. 
Shirley because he had a lot of views or that some CBS reporter 
disagreed with and said they couldn't find the evidence 
actually in my mind discredits the CBS reporter. Because I 
appreciate the Ranking Member cited the Arizona fraud, which I 
also constantly cite. It is a massive fraud in Arizona. Not 
just the $2.5 billion, but there is an essential--another 
additional allegation of about $7 billion per year fraud in 
Arizona.
    There needs to be a change there. We need to get a handle 
on this not just in Minnesota, but nationwide because, as we 
have seen in Ms. Larson's case, those who are conducting 
themselves according to the law, delivering services, are the 
ones that also get punished. If you are a fraudster, somehow 
you are able to keep on going.
    The fraud hasn't stopped. Mr. Shirley have you seen any 
evidence--you said twice today that $185 million of recipients, 
not one of them has been able to demonstrate that they are a 
legitimate business.
    Mr. Shirley. No. In fact, they are actually actively suing 
the HHS to prevent handing over any information.
    Mr. Biggs. They don't even want to give the information 
that would be required of an audit, that would be required from 
a separate, independent investigation. They want a court to 
intervene and enjoin and prevent them from having to respond to 
this kind of investigation. Is that correct, Mr. Shirley?
    Mr. Shirley. That is correct.
    Mr. Biggs. This is the thing. I listened to the panelists. 
Everybody on the panel--I think everybody up here--we all want 
to stop the fraud. The bottom line is it is so infused with 
politicization that it is preventing us from just sitting down 
there and saying, OK, we have got a symptom in Minnesota, and 
we are going to fix it. The symptom being exposed is critical 
because then it actually motivates people to try to get to the 
root cause.
    I am out of time, and we have no other Members here. I just 
want to thank each one of you, Mr. Dexter, Mr. Hedtler-
Gaudette, Mr. Shirley, and Ms. Larson for being here and giving 
us your testimony. I really appreciate it.
    I would encourage my colleagues to be better stewards and 
have better oversight because otherwise Mr. Shirley's 
generation is going to be paying through the wazoo, which right 
now means $40 trillion in national debt.
    Thank you all. I appreciate it. We are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:56 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance can
be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent 
.aspx?EventID=118871.

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