    [House Hearing, 119 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                       A VOICE FOR SMALL BUSINESS: HOW THE SBA
                        OFFICE OF ADVOCACY IS CUTTING RED TAPE

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                 UNITED STATES
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                  HEARING HELD
                                JANUARY 7, 2026

                                   __________

                      [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                Small Business Committee Document Number 119-027
                 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

                                   ______

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    62-510                   WASHINGTON : 2026

                       HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                        ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                            PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                            DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                             BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                               JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                             MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                             NICK LALOTA, New York
                            BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
                              TONY WIED, Wisconsin
                          ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
                              BRIAN JACK, Georgia
                             TROY DOWNING, Montana
                 KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
                             DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
                            JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
                   NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                           MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                           HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                          LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
                            GIL CISNEROS, California
                           KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
                            GEORGE LATIMER, New York
                             DEREK TRAN, California
                           LATEEFAH SIMON, California
                           JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
                            HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
                        MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

                     Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director
                     Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Roger Williams..............................................     1
    Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     2

                                    WITNESS

    Hon. Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel, Office of Advocacy, U.S.
      Small Business Administration, Washington, DC..................     4

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statement:
        Hon. Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel, Office of Advocacy,
          U.S. Small Business Administration, Washington, DC.........    34
    Questions and Answers for the Record:
        Questions from Hon. Velazquez to Hon. Mulligan and Answers
          from Hon. Mulligan.........................................   179
        Questions from Hon. Goodlander to Hon. Mulligan and Answers
          from Hon. Mulligan.........................................   208
        Question from Hon. Schmidt to Hon. Mulligan and Answer from
          Hon. Mulligan..............................................   210
    Additional Material for the Record:
        U.S. Chamber of Commerce.....................................   212
        NFIB Letter..................................................   214
        Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC)....................   217
        Dahlia Rizk, Buckle Me Baby Coats............................   219
        Shakia Williams, Cyrenity Sips Winery........................   221
        Lynne Fletcher O'Brien, Line in the Sand.....................   223
        Orleatha Smith, Sip Herbals..................................   225
        Jill Osur, Teneral Cellars, Inc..............................   226
        Eric Henry, TS Designs, Inc..................................   228
        Cassie Abel, Wild Rye........................................   230
        Editorial Board..............................................   232
        Advocacy Screenshot..........................................   235

                       A VOICE FOR SMALL BUSINESS: HOW THE SBA
                        OFFICE OF ADVOCACY IS CUTTING RED TAPE

                                  ----------

                           WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 7, 2026

                      House of Representatives,
                   Committee on Small Business,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in Room
    2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams
    [chairman of the Committee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Williams, Meuser, Van Duyne,
    Ellzey, Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Downing, King-Hinds, Schmidt,
    Patronis, Velazquez, McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros,
    Morrison, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, and Goodlander.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to
    recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey to
    lead us in the pledge and the prayer. Following the pledge and
    prayer, we will have a moment of silence.
        All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
    of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
    nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
    all.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Dear God, thank you for another day. Thank you
    for allowing us to see 2026.
        I ask that you place Your hands on each of us, each Member
    of this Committee, all of our staffers, and help us lead in a
    better way for the American people, and most importantly, for
    small businesses, as that is our duty on this Committee.
        Thank you for breath, for good health. We pray for our
    colleagues. We pray for those that did not have the opportunity
    to come back with us in session in 2026. And we pray for those
    that are still trying to recover and get through to be here
    with us.
        In Jesus' name, amen.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Would you remain standing, please?
        We mourn the passage of our colleague, Representative Doug
    LaMalfa. He represented California's First Congressional
    District for 13 years. He was a strong advocate for rural
    America. I know many of us are proud to call him a friend.
    Please join me for a moment of silence to honor his memory.
        [Moment of silence.]
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        Good morning, everyone.
        I now call the Committee on Small Business to order.
        Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
    recess of the Committee at any time.
        I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
        I want to say welcome and thank you for being here for
    today's hearing, ``A Voice for Small Business: How the SBA
    Office of Advocacy is Cutting Red Tape.''
        I want to thank our witness, Dr. Casey Mulligan, the chief
    counsel of SBA's Office of Advocacy, for appearing before us
    today.
        This hearing comes at a critical time for small businesses
    nationwide. Main street endured inflation, burdensome
    regulations, and rising interest rates at the hands of the
    Biden-Harris administration.
        It is estimated that the total cost of regulations is now
    over $3 trillion a year, equal to 12 percent of the entire U.S.
    economy. To put this in perspective, the cost of regulations in
    the U.S. exceeds the entire economy of the United Kingdom.
        To make matters worse, the Biden administration's
    regulatory onslaught cost over $1.8 trillion due to new
    regulations.
        Now more than ever, we must ensure that the federal
    government doesn't make it harder for our job creators to
    thrive, and that is where the SBA Office of Advocacy comes in.
        So the Office of Advocacy is an independent voice for small
    businesses within the federal government and fights against
    burdensome regulations. Under the Regulatory Flexibility Act,
    or the RFA, federal agencies are statutorily required to ensure
    that regulations have a limited impact on small business.
        However, last Congress, this Committee investigated agency
    compliance, and simply put, agencies skirt the law and end up
    implementing a mountain of crippling regulations on Main Street
    America.
        Despite their best efforts, the Office of Advocacy lacks
    the legislative authority to hold the agencies accountable for
    ignoring the RFA, and that must change.
        Under President Trump, the Office of Advocacy has been
    pivotal in repealing burdensome, misguided regulations. This
    includes their work with FinCEN to roll back the burdensome
    Beneficial Ownership Information reporting rule.
        I am happy that so many of my colleagues are dedicated to
    fighting crippling regulations, including those who have joined
    my bill, H.R. 796, the 1071 Repeal to Protect Small Business
    Lending Act, which was reported favorably out of the Committee
    on Financial Services.
        So I genuinely hope that hearings like this will show how
    important it is to remove regulatory barriers that stifle
    American entrepreneurship, which should have bipartisan
    support. I look forward to discussing how we can strengthen the
    Office of Advocacy's role and how Congress can give it the
    tools it needs to continue advocating for main street.
        I want to thank you, Dr. Mulligan, again for being here
    today.
        And, with that, I yield to my friend and distinguished
    Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velazquez.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Good morning.
        Thank you, Chairman Williams.
        Welcome to the Committee, Dr. Mulligan.
        The Office of Advocacy plays a unique role within the
    federal government, serving as the independent voice of small
    businesses and promoting the concerns of small firms before
    both federal and state policymakers.
        Advocacy's important work, when done in a thorough and
    independent manner, as Congress intended, can help prevent
    well-meaning rules from unintentionally harming small
    competitors.
        Small businesses need a strong advocate right now. Over the
    past year, small firms have lost government contracts,
    experienced supply chain kills, and endured a constant state of
    confusion amid President Trump's tariffs, rising prices, and an
    avalanche of policy changes. Manufacturing jobs have fallen
    every month since April 2025, extending Trump's losing streak
    that cost 58,000 jobs.
        I would like to enter into the record a Wall Street Journal
    editorial entitled ``Where Are Those Manufacturing Jobs?'' The
    op-ed contends that tariffs are the primary factor leading to
    job losses and the broader decline in the economy.
        That is why it is important to have an independent office
    that will serve as a strong and credible voice for small
    businesses within the administration, not one that will echo
    whatever the administration wants to hear.
        I have concerns over the growing lack of independence
    between the Office of Advocacy and SBA, particularly in light
    of SBA initiatives that task Advocacy with cutting $100 billion
    in regulations and setting up a deregulatory strike force. That
    is not the role of an independent office, but one more akin to
    a political arm of the administration.
        This administration does not fully understand the long-term
    cost of rolling back regulations in pursuit of short-term
    gains. It is important to understand the full picture.
    Regulations can benefit small businesses, and the unchecked
    removal of regulations can increase uncertainty.
        We have heard testimony time and time again that smart,
    well-crafted regulations provide clear rules of the road for
    small businesses, offering certainty and ensuring that they can
    compete on a level playing field. Smart, well-crafted
    regulations promote innovation, especially in the energy and
    manufacturing sectors.
        With that said, I understand certain regulations can be
    onerous and difficult for small employers to comply with, but
    deregulation is not the answer. The chainsaw approach will roll
    back important safeguards and cause uncertainty for small
    firms.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I will now introduce our witness.
        Our witness today is Dr. Casey Mulligan. Dr. Mulligan is
    the chief counsel of the Office of Advocacy at the U.S. Small
    Business Administration in Washington, D.C. Dr. Mulligan is
    responsible for representing the independent voice of small
    businesses before federal agencies, Congress, and the White
    House, and brings a deep background in economic research.
        Prior to work at the SBA, Dr. Mulligan served as the chief
    economist on the White House Council of Economic Advisers from
    2018 to 2019, where he provided economic analysis on federal
    regulatory initiatives, healthcare, labor markets, and tax
    policies.
        Dr. Mulligan earned a bachelor of arts from Harvard
    University and a Ph.D. in economics from the University of
    Chicago.
        I am looking forward to our meaningful conversation today.
        And are you a golfer? You got a mulligan.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes, sir, a couple times on the first tee.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. I got you. Okay.
        So before I recognize the witness, I would like to remind
    you that your oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in
    length. If you see the light turn red in front of you, it means
    your 5 minutes has concluded and you should wrap up your
    testimony. If you don't and keep going, you will hear this,
    okay?
        So with that, I now recognize you--we are glad to have you
    here, Doctor--for your 5-minute opening remarks.

    STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CASEY MULLIGAN, CHIEF COUNSEL, U.S.
            SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF ADVOCACY

        Mr. MULLIGAN. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez,
    and Members of the Committee. I am honored to discuss
    Advocacy's role in cutting red tape for small businesses. My
    testimony does not necessarily reflect the views of the
    administration or the SBA.
        The Biden administration finalized 12,000 rules that would
    cost almost $6 trillion--with a T. Against that backdrop,
    President Trump was elected to stop the, quote, ``ever-
    expanding morass of complicated federal regulation,'' close
    quote. He directed agencies to identify regulations that impose
    undue burdens on small businesses.
        Advocacy is well-positioned to help agencies follow that
    direction. During my nomination hearing, I committed to meet
    small businesses where they are. I have done so, together with
    our regional advocates who gather small business perspectives
    nationwide and bring them to policy discussions here in
    Washington.
        For years, small businesses burdened by regulations
    remained silent, fearing retaliation. Now they tell Advocacy
    that this administration is the first to listen and understand.
    One even said Advocacy, quote, ``quite literally saved
    Christmas,'' close quote.
        We also help cut foreign regulation. When Canada blocked a
    U.S. firewood manufacturer's exports, we coordinated with USDA,
    State, and Congress to resolve it. Shipments resumed, making it
    America's only exporter of that type of firewood.
        Agencies and the White House offices have increasingly come
    to Advocacy for input on regulatory policy. The office has
    flagged approximately 300 regulatory issues for this
    administration where deregulatory action would help small
    businesses.
        Many of these rules are giving large organizations an
    artificial advantage over smaller ones. Take the Outpatient
    Prospective Payment System that pays hospitals more for the
    same services than it pays independent physicians.
        Small businesses also flagged the proposed OSHA Heat rule.
    It would impose sweeping one-size-fits-all and often absurd
    requirements on workplaces where heat is above certain
    temperatures.
        During a meeting with Advocacy, an Arizona watermelon
    farmer understood that the rule would require shade structures
    even though harvesting occurs at night, in the dark, where
    there is no sun to be shaded.
        In contrast, well-designed deregulation increases
    competition and productivity. President Trump's first term was
    a case in point. Prescription drug prices fell for the first
    time in decades. Deregulation sharply reduced internet access
    prices. The RFA's competition channel is a reason for both of
    these changes.
        Another indicator of agencies' unprecedented engagement
    with Advocacy is compliance with the RFA's agenda-sharing
    requirement under 5 U.S.C. Section 602. With only one or two
    exceptions, agencies in the prior administration completely
    failed to comply.
        In contrast, during my first 5 months as chief counsel,
    more than 60 agencies have sought Advocacy input on their
    regulatory agendas. This is an increase in compliance of at
    least 3,000 percent.
        While regulators are quick to sanction businesses that
    violate their requirements, they too often fail to follow the
    rules that Congress set for them.
        A frequent practice has been to unlawfully certify
    important rules as supposedly not having a significant economic
    impact on a substantial number of small entities. Such
    certifications are a pathway to capricious enforcement actions
    against small entities, and they are also obstacles to
    oversight.
        My recent report, ``Unlawful Disregard for Small Business
    Regulatory Burdens,'' examines thousands of certifications. In
    Orwellian fashion, 65 percent of the major rules from the Biden
    administration were nonetheless said to lack significant
    effects on small entities or otherwise not require considering
    those effects. Small businesses were saddled with costs between
    200 and 600 billion dollars without acknowledgement of the
    magnitude.
        The report identifies genres of certification ``fiction''--
    and that's what it is--including rules that acknowledge heavy
    paperwork burdens but certify anyway, rules that threaten
    entire business categories through product bans, and rules with
    detailed cost estimates that are ignored for RFA purposes.
        The report is not merely a critique of past process
    failures. It is a practical roadmap for finding and fixing red
    tape that is already on the books.
        To that end, Advocacy has published a ``most wanted''
    roster of regulations notorious for their unnecessary burdens
    on small businesses.
        Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As Chief
    Counsel for Advocacy, I will continue to listen and work toward
    better policy for all small businesses.
        I would be happy to answer any questions.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. That is perfect.
        And we will now move to the Member questions under the 5-
    minute rule. I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        Dr. Mulligan, the Office of Advocacy is intended to operate
    independently from the SBA, yet its statute requires the SBA
    Administrator to provide Advocacy with office space, equipment,
    communication facilities, and other support.
        So the question is, how do you navigate this statutory
    requirement to receive necessary support from the SBA while
    ensuring that Advocacy maintains its independent voice in
    analyzing and advocating on behalf of small business?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        My testimony and my reports have documented that the red
    tape problem is massive. And one office is not enough. And
    President Trump has a number of offices really making great
    contributions, the Office of Management and Budget and the
    National Economic Council--and my landlord, you might say, the
    SBA, is another one. They are very much--the Administrator is
    hearing from small businesses, hears about these red tape
    problems, and really is a great partner. And I welcome great
    partners whenever I can get them.
        In terms of setting the direction for the office, that
    comes from me. I have the only hiring authority. I mean,
    Congress is very clear that the Administrator does not need to
    consent or approve my hires.
        And, of course, especially in my office, where we don't
    have machines and things like that, the people are everything.
    So the hiring decisions are really crucial for putting together
    a great team to advocate for small businesses.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. As we said today, the Office of Advocacy
    was created to be the voice for small businesses in the federal
    government.
        Can you discuss how Advocacy is uniquely positioned to hear
    directly from small business owners, and specifically what
    concrete steps your office has taken since President Trump took
    office to expand outreach, gather meaningful feedback, and
    ensure small business concerns are effectively represented in
    federal policymaking?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I mentioned a number of regulatory partners
    in the administration. One of the unique things Advocacy has is
    its outreach. A significant fraction of my staff is not in
    Washington. They don't have an office or a desk here. Every day
    they are out listening to the small businesses.
        And one of the things that we did, I believe we set a
    record, with no close second place, in filling the regional
    advocate positions, making sure there was somebody in place
    there. And we have put together quite a training program for
    them, and they are very well-integrated with what we are doing
    here in Washington.
        So that outreach is crucial to the whole mission of
    Advocacy and really to having good government here.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. This Committee has sounded the alarm on
    many of the burdensome regulations from the Biden-Harris
    administration. Regulations like the 1071 rule, Beneficial
    Ownership reporting requirements, and the independent
    contractor rule added unnecessary burdens and costs to Main
    Street America, and Advocacy has taken proactive steps to fight
    back against many of these regulations.
        So my question is, can you tell us about those efforts and
    how Advocacy will continue to identify and remove burdensome
    regulations?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        The first step always is listening to the small businesses,
    and they raise with us every one of those rules that you
    mentioned. I suppose you have heard from your constituents
    about them as well.
        And the next step is we communicate with the agencies who
    are--we don't make the rules at Advocacy. There are other
    agencies that make them. We communicate with them and let them
    know what we have heard.
        One thing that has been really a blessing in this
    administration is often before I can do that, they are coming
    to Advocacy and saying, the different Cabinet agencies: Hey,
    what are you hearing from small businesses? How can we do
    better with our regulations?
        And so a number of agencies, including some that you
    mentioned, really approached Advocacy. And we were ready, based
    on our outreach, to let them know what small businesses are
    experiencing.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Let me go quickly to my last question.
        The Regulatory Flexibility Act is supposed to provide
    critical protection for small business, and last Congress the
    Committee's investigation found that agencies often skirt
    requirements and enact costly regulations to the detriment of
    small businesses.
        So, quickly, what factors limit Advocacy's ability to
    ensure agencies are complying fully?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, I suppose in the prior administration
    that the administration itself wasn't very supportive. And
    President Trump has been very supportive of what we are trying
    to do, and that is a big reason why we had the 3,000 percent
    increase in compliance.
        If you want something more robust, when President Trump is
    no longer our President, I think some statutes, like the ones
    you mentioned, the PROVE IT Act, I think would be helpful.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, thank you for that.
        My time is up, and I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5
    minutes of questions.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Dr. Mulligan, is the Office of Advocacy an independent
    office?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. It is the Office of Advocacy. And we refer to
    ourselves----
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Is it independent? Just say yes or no.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. The word ``independent'' is not in the
    statutes. We call ourselves an independent voice in the
    executive branch for small business.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Do you circulate to the Office of Management
    and Budget, White House, or Small Business Administration for
    clearance of your testimony?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. No. They get it the same time that you guys
    get it.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Congress intended that the chief counsel
    have a great deal of latitude and not be a yes man for the
    agency.
        Prior to being confirmed, were you working as a senior
    adviser on economics to the SBA Administrator, reporting to her
    chief of staff, yes or no?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I don't remember the title, but, yes, I did
    work in a role----
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay. Thank you.
        Mr. MULLIGAN.--in her side of the office, yes.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. In my view, this is a direct conflict of
    interest for a nominee to an office which is statutorily
    required to be independent of the SBA.
        Moving forward, will you commit to representing the views
    and interests of small businesses even when those views
    directly conflict with or oppose actions taken by the Trump
    administration, yes or no?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I already do that.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I am sorry?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I already do that, yes.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. In December, the Wall Street Journal
    editorial board warned that tariffs are contributing to
    manufacturing job losses, 58,000 jobs since January.
        Have you conveyed these concerns to the White House? And
    what response have you received?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I have so many dealings with the White House, I don't know
    how to summarize them in this short time. Let me----
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. But you don't recall? You know, everyone is
    discussing----
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I recall so many things.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ.--tariffs and the impact----
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I recall dozens of things. I don't have time
    to--let me tell you one story.
        So during the shutdown----
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. No, no, no, no. I just want to hear if you
    have conveyed----
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay. Because the U.S. Chamber of Commerce
    believes broad-based tariffs raise prices for consumers and
    businesses and are especially a big problem for small
    businesses that do not have many resources to understand them.
        Given the negative impact tariffs are having on small
    businesses, why hasn't Advocacy taken a more visible role in
    pushing back against these policies?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        My office, under my leadership, has achieved a 3,000
    percent increase in compliance. And I understand that----
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I am not discussing compliance. I am asking
    you a question about tariffs.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I am answering your question, with all due
    respect.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I am answering your question.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I work with the agencies. I need to persuade
    them. I cannot make any rules. I cannot change any rates. I
    cannot do any of that stuff. I need to be persuasive. And I
    think my methods have been very effective, as you can see from
    the compliance changes.
        I understand that you are recommending some different
    methods to persuade. Those aren't my methods, and that is not
    what I am doing.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay. So, Chief Counsel, in your book
    ``You're Hired!'' you state that tariffs are taxes.
        Do you believe that tariffs are taxes, yes or no?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Tariffs are a revenue source. The President
    calls them external revenue as opposed to internal revenue. And
    his policy--and I was there in Milwaukee in the summer of 2024,
    helping him get that to be on the platform.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Sir, I asked you a yes-or-no answer----
        Mr. MULLIGAN. It is a revenue source.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ.--based on what you wrote in your own book.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. The platform is different than the policies
    that we had in the first Trump administration.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. We are discussing the impact of tariffs on
    small businesses and consumers. You stated in your book that
    tariffs are taxes.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. President Trump's policy----
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. And now you are providing a different
    interpretation.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. No, it is not a different interpretation. It
    is a different policy.
        President Trump's policy--and it is very clearly stated in
    the platform, anyone can read it right now, the Republican
    platform--is to reduce internal revenue and replace it with
    external revenue.
        And that has been his policy. That is a different policy
    than the first administration. And it has different effects,
    because it is a different policy.
        We know that small businesses are very burdened by internal
    revenue, and that is part of President Trump's policy to
    relieve them from that burden.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I think you are changing your tune, based on
    the fact that you are working for the administration. That is
    not what you put into this book.
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member, for
    holding this.
        Mr. Mulligan, would you like to respond to the Ranking
    Member, anything you would like to say after that last comment?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question and that
    opportunity.
        Policy needs to be analyzed carefully. I have done that for
    my entire career. I am not a young man. I have been doing that
    a long time.
        And the policies may have the same label but different
    things. There are different policies. And policies in the Trump
    two administration, I analyzed the Trump two policies.
        And the policies that we had in the platform in Milwaukee
    are not the same policies as before, and they need a different
    analysis. It would be dishonest to do it any other way.
        Mr. ALFORD. Very good.
        As you know, this Committee really stands as a staunch
    advocate for Main Street America under the leadership of our
    Chairman. That is what this has been about since I have been on
    this Committee.
        I think all of us up here are firmly committed to make sure
    that Main Street America is fairly, justly supported, that we
    help small businesses start and grow. If we do not maintain our
    champion attitude for main street interests, we risk losing the
    small businesses that are really integral to the fabric of
    America.
        The last 4 years, small businesses have been under attack
    from an administration determined to crush main street under
    the boot of big government. In the previous administration,
    federal agencies finalized over 1,000 regulations, costing
    taxpayers a whopping $1.8 trillion in compliance. That is not a
    small number, $1.8 trillion, and this is the same as the entire
    federal discretionary budget for fiscal year 2023.
        It is unacceptable that federal agencies can put this
    burden on the taxpayers of this country. And that is why the
    taxpayers spoke when they elected Donald J. Trump, who
    appointed Administrator Loeffler to take the SBA in a new
    direction.
        In just the first 100 days, reforms from the SBA Office of
    Advocacy have saved small businesses more than $48 billion in
    regulatory cost. Thank you. Thank you for that.
        And since taking office, the President has saved over $111
    billion in regulatory cost. That is a savings of about $325 per
    American, money that instead of being wasted in useless
    compliance to support bureaucratic bloat, will stay in the
    pockets of Americans.
        Dr. Mulligan, the Advocacy Office does exist as the voice
    of small businesses to make sure that any bureaucrats in the
    Beltway must consider main street when creating regulations.
        What current regulations are you hearing about from small
    businesses across the country that really need attention the
    most?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        There are so many, as you mentioned, getting into the
    thousands.
        Mr. ALFORD. Give me your top three.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. We have a ``most wanted'' list that we put on
    our website. The OSHA Heat rule that I mentioned in my
    testimony is in there. The requirements for nursing home
    staffing is another one that is in there.
        The filing of quarterly payroll forms is another one on our
    ``most wanted'' list. It could be annual is something we should
    look into, making it annual instead of quarterly.
        Mr. ALFORD. I am also on the Appropriations Committee
    Subcommittee for FSGG, and I know the Office of Advocacy
    requested an additional $4 million. This is not an
    Appropriations hearing, I understand that, but that could not
    be included in the House mark this go-around.
        Can you please speak to what Advocacy would be able to do
    for the taxpayer with additional funding? And we have 40
    seconds.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        We are a small office. There are thousands of regulations.
    And making sure that we follow through, and not just in
    identifying, but follow through in removing those regulations
    that need to be removed, reform the ones that need to be
    reformed, it would be helpful to have additional staff than
    just the few dozen that we have.
        Mr. ALFORD. I would like to have a continued conversation
    with you and Dave Joyce, our Subcommittee Chair, on this. Let's
    make that happen.
        Thank you so much for your service, for looking out for
    Main Street America.
        And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great State of
    Kentucky for 5 minutes.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        I just want to point out one thing quickly. When we are
    talking about rules and regulations, the first Trump
    administration issued 1,313 rules and regulations. The Biden
    administration issued 1,167 rules and regulations, less than
    Trump one.
        I am very interested in making sure that our small
    businesses don't have a regulatory burden. I just want us to be
    honest about the data and the numbers when we are talking about
    them.
        So, Dr. Mulligan, one thing I want to talk with you about
    is in your written testimony you use the words ``regulation''
    and ``regulatory'' 55 times. You never once mention the word
    ``tariff.'' Zero times do you talk about tariff.
        That is frustrating to me, because right now if you want to
    come to Louisville, Kentucky, and walk around and talk to small
    business owners with me, that is the number one thing they are
    talking about. And you are supposed to be the small businesses'
    voice and advocate here in Washington.
        So the concern isn't just anecdotal. It is not just
    somebody telling me at their business what this is doing to
    them and their customers. All of the data bears this out.
        And even though you don't mention tariffs at all in your
    written testimony, you have talked about tariffs before, and
    you have talked about the damage that a tariff policy,
    specifically when there is no strategy involved, does.
        I can point you to chapter 8 in your book ``You're Hired!''
    where you say a tariff is simply a tax on imports, where you
    say, quote, ``The most damaging protectionist measures are
    import prohibitions and their equivalents, tariffs that are so
    high that imports stop altogether.''
        You also said, quote, ``Tariffs are taxes on top of all the
    other taxes and regulations of our economy,'' and they, quote,
    ``reduce employment, real incomes, and GDP.''
        Your last point is actually proving correct right now. And
    in the wake of President Trump's tariffs, according to his own
    Bureau of Labor Statistics, the unemployment rate has increased
    to 4.6 percent last year and the number of unemployed people
    increased to 7.8 million over the last year.
        The Chamber of Commerce has reported that a majority of
    small businesses expect to raise prices and have less revenue
    than usual, so less disposable income is going to come back
    into our local economies and stimulate growth. And, of course,
    it is making things harder for small businesses from Louisville
    across this country.
        Are you all hearing the same thing from small businesses
    about tariffs that we are hearing?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        There were a number of incorrect premises, with all due
    respect. On my--on our website----
        Mr. MCGARVEY. I was just quoting you.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Biden did not make 1,000 regulations, he made
    12,000, and about 8,600 of them are on my website.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. I asked you, are you hearing about tariffs
    from small businesses? Are you?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Of course you are, because that is what they
    are talking about. That is what is hurting them right now.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. For example, the fishermen--I brought my fish
    tie today. The fishermen from Massachusetts, they came. We
    visited them. They visited us.
        And one of the things they raised is how the Europeans are
    stealing our fish and selling it back to us. That is not an
    exaggeration. And they are asking could there be a tariff so
    that we could fight--have a President who fights back against
    terrible trade deals----
        Mr. MCGARVEY. So what has your office done----
        Mr. MULLIGAN.--and crushing our small businesses from
    Europe.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. What work has your office done to help small
    businesses with the burden they are facing from tariffs? Are
    you doing anything? You are supposed to be the advocate.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. You are right. I am the advocate. And job
    number one is I listen to----
        Mr. MCGARVEY. What have you done? Because we have got
    limited time. What have you done?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Two things: listen and make sure the
    policymakers are hearing what I am hearing.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Because the President, when he went in front
    of the Supreme Court, said this is regulatory. He called
    tariffs regulation. That is the point of his argument to the
    Supreme Court. He said that he, quote, ``has the power to
    regulate.'' That was the specific word they used on
    international trade.
        And what I am hearing from you today is that you are
    basically ignoring what is happening with our small businesses
    with the tariff problem, because you have changed your opinion
    that you used to write about now that you are working for the
    administration. Our small businesses need you more than you
    need to be loyal to this administration.
        You didn't have much good to say in your book about Peter
    Navarro, the President's trade guru and, quote/unquote,
    ``unique China expert.''
        Mr. Navarro is the principal author of our country's
    current tariff policy. You called him--these are your words--
    you called him boorish and double-dealing. You wrote that you
    were, quote, ``stunned'' by how misinformed he was in policy
    discussions. You accused him of economic illiteracy.
        You even pointed out that he was so out of touch that he
    went around Capitol Hill making a big stink about a bill--and I
    am not making this up--that he named The FART Act.
        Setting aside your personal differences with Mr. Navarro,
    you seem to have diametrically opposed views on tariffs and
    what he does. Do you think he is the right man to be leading
    our trade policy right now?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. It loaded in a
    ton of----
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Quotes.
        Mr. MULLIGAN.--false premises.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. Quotes. They are called quotes.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. A number of quotes that you quoted from that
    book were about Ronald Reagan's policy. If you look at that
    chapter that you are quoting from, there is a picture of Ronald
    Reagan next to a picture of Donald J. Trump. And the whole
    discussion in that chapter is about Reagan's import
    prohibitions and Reagan's policies and how President Trump's
    policies----
        Mr. MCGARVEY. I must have the old copy, not the new copy.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. There is only one copy. And I wrote that
    chapter. It is very much about Reagan versus Trump. And you
    were attributing to President Trump Reagan's----
        Mr. MCGARVEY. You are ignoring the question about Peter
    Navarro. What about Peter Navarro? I didn't ask about Ronald
    Reagan.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up.
        Mr. MCGARVEY. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Finstad from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Chairman Williams. Thank you for
    holding this important hearing today.
        And thank you to our witness, Dr. Mulligan, for being here.
        I am excited to be here today to discuss the important role
    the SBA Office of Advocacy plays in ensuring small businesses
    have a strong voice in government.
        For many small businesses, especially those in rural
    communities, like the communities that I represent in southern
    Minnesota, federal regulations can be confusing and costly.
        The SBA Office of Advocacy serves as a vital resource for
    engaging with small business owners, and it holds agencies
    accountable to the Regulatory Flexibility Act.
        Since 2009--and we have heard this a few times already--
    federal government regulations have cost small businesses
    $732.2 billion, and, probably more egregiously, has added 483.8
    million hours in administrative time to our small businesses.
        The Biden administration alone accounts for $450 billion of
    these costs and nearly 280 of the administrative hours, 280
    million of these hours.
        I introduced the PROVE IT Act to give small businesses a
    seat at the table during this regulatory process and provide
    them with the much-needed regulatory relief by giving teeth to
    existing law, the RFA, the Regulatory Flexibility Act.
        So with that, Dr. Mulligan, the PROVE IT Act passed this
    Committee, the Judiciary Committee, and the full House of
    Representatives last Congress. This year, I reintroduced this
    legislation with the hope that it again passes the House and
    hopefully spurs the Senate for action.
        With the Chairman's permission, I would like to offer a
    letter received this morning from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce
    for the record that supports the PROVE IT Act.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Agreed.
        Mr. FINSTAD. So, Dr. Mulligan, as the House considers the
    PROVE IT Act, I want to know your thoughts on this legislation
    and hear how you believe it could help small businesses.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        Fictional certifications is an even bigger problem than was
    thought, and this Committee was early to identify it as a
    serious problem, and legislation such as the PROVE IT Act is
    directly trying to solve that problem.
        It is a problem that needs solving. If we don't solve it--
    in this administration, President Trump is extremely supportive
    of small businesses. But he is not always going to be our
    President, and after that I think we need some legislation to
    prevent these fictional certifications.
        If fictional certifications continue, we have several
    problems with that for small businesses. Number one, it
    undermines the regulatory review process. So that protection
    for small businesses to be able to go back and look at old
    regulations and take them out when they are outdated, et
    cetera, will be undermined.
        Another key issue is being able to understand the rules to
    follow. Back in the old days, Martin Luther said the common man
    should be able to read the word on his own. Well, we have
    something like that in the federal government, small entity
    compliance guides, but the agencies avoid that through these
    false and fictional certifications.
        And last but not least would be, particularly for some of
    these special agencies like EPA, that when you have a false
    certification that the PROVE IT Act would prevent, it bypasses
    the panels and the great feedback we would get for small
    businesses and make better rules. The Ranking Member talked
    about well-crafted rules. The way to craft them well is to
    listen to the small businesses.
        Thank you.
        Mr. FINSTAD. It is probably a simple yes or no, but, Dr.
    Mulligan, you understand that small businesses--95 percent of
    the businesses in my district are small businesses. We are
    talking mom-and-pops, 10, 15, in some cases two, three
    employees.
        You understand that they don't have time day in and day
    out, because at some point in the day they are the CFO, they
    are the CEO, they are the janitor, they are the mechanic, they
    are the cook. You name it, they are doing it all in that day.
        You understand they don't have the time to keep up with the
    thousands upon thousands of regulations that a big, bloated
    government puts onto our small businesses. You get that, right?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes, I do.
        Mr. FINSTAD. All right.
        So a tool like the PROVE IT Act is something that will
    provide opportunities for common sense to prevail for our small
    businesses again.
        So how would the PROVE IT Act aid your office to influence
    or challenge agency rules that underestimate their impact on
    small businesses?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, the PROVE IT Act gives an additional
    role to small business voice, maybe delivered through the
    Office of Advocacy, in terms of questioning these fictional
    certifications and going ahead with the rule that acknowledges
    the cost that it creates and helps with the compliance and
    finding alternatives, less costly alternatives of achieving the
    same goals.
        Mr. FINSTAD. I appreciate what you do. Thank you for being
    here today.
        And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of
    Michigan for 5 minutes.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair, Madam Ranking Member,
    and Dr. Mulligan, for joining us here today. Great to have a
    fellow Midwesterner in our presence.
        The topic of the day is tariffs, how do we combat the
    terrible impact that tariffs are having on our small business.
    You are here because we are looking to you to help us protect
    small businesses.
        I have here five different letters that I would like to
    enter into the record from small businesses across the country
    who reached out to this Committee desperate for help to try and
    combat the devastating impact of this administration's tariff
    policies on their small businesses.
        One small business owner, Lynne Fletcher O'Brien from
    McLean, Virginia, wrote in, and she actually used--and people
    here use the words, ``They are targeting us. They are attacking
    us.'' They see this administration as literally targeting small
    businesses.
        Lynne Fletcher O'Brien writes in and talks about actually
    punishing small businesses, talks about a procedure that
    Customs and Border Protection employs where officials are
    actually destroying items when they can't properly assess the
    value because of this chaotic tariff policy. She said, ``I am
    urging you to push for tariff relief that doesn't punish small
    American businesses and consumers.''
        You are in the Office of Advocacy. They are looking to you
    to help. In west Michigan, our agricultural sector in
    particular is struggling. Rural America is struggling.
    President Trump's tariffs, including many businesses in the
    agricultural sector, he is punishing these businesses.
        Michigan is not only the nation's second-largest producer
    of apples. In my district, Grand Rapids is the apple capital of
    the State. As a result of the President's tariffs, fresh apple
    exports have declined by 58 percent this year.
        West Michigan produces nearly three-quarters of Michigan's
    harvested apples in 2024, so you can imagine how devastating
    these tariffs have been to my district's food and agricultural
    small businesses.
        Dr. Mulligan, you said that, when my colleague Mr. McGarvey
    was asking you what are you doing about it, you said you were
    making sure that individuals have information about it.
        Is that all? Is that all that you are doing? Is that all
    that the Office of Advocacy can do to help from small
    businesses feeling like they are being punished by this
    administration?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        Advocacy has two basic roles. The outreach. Listening, in
    other words. Listening to small businesses. And I would be glad
    to look at the letters that you are putting in the record. I
    think every small business voice counts.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Great. We have them here for your review.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. And the second role is to communicate to the
    agencies and try to be persuasive in terms of making sure they
    know what the small business concerns are and urging them to
    seek policies that promote success of small businesses.
        I have found the partnership in the administration to be
    incredible. As I said in my testimony, they are coming to me
    before I can go to them in many cases, including in the tariff
    area.
        I had an entrepreneur from Chicago who came to Washington.
    I met with her. And she mentioned--she sells coffee, purchases
    imported coffee. She said coffee is getting pretty expensive.
        That was during the shutdown, so I couldn't meet with the
    people at that time. But the very first day the shutdown was
    over, I was told to come to the White House and share what I
    have been hearing. And before I could share that Chicago
    entrepreneur's story, the Commerce principal said: Hey, we are
    cutting the tariff on coffee and some other items immediately.
        So that is the kind of experience that I have had. They are
    very eager to hear about small businesses and to take fast
    action to make things better.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. And what action is that? I mean, we are still
    seeing these small business owners writing in and saying: We
    feel like we are being punished here.
        I mean, what would you say to Lynne in her letter here who
    says please do something about these policies that are
    punishing us?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I would be glad to read the letter. I don't reply to
    letters I haven't read.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. I mean, I am reading them to you right now. I
    am reading it verbatim. She says: I am urging you.
        This certainly can't be the first time you have heard from
    someone who feels--and I would question whether you truly are
    listening if you are telling me you have never heard from
    people who say they feel----
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Wait a second. I just got done explaining
    about the Chicago entrepreneur who was importing the coffee. I
    heard from her. I went to the--I was called to the White House
    to share what I am hearing and----
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. And you share with them that people feel like
    they are being punished and destroyed by these tariffs?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I shared what the Chicago entrepreneur said,
    not what you are saying.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. So have you shared with the White House that
    American small businesses feel like they are being punished by
    this tariff policy?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I have not heard a business tell that they me
    that they are being punished.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. You do not feel that this--you have not heard
    from any small businesses that feel that this would be a----
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady's time is up.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN.--devastating impact on their small business?
        Then I am glad I entered these into the record. We
    encourage you to come to west Michigan and talk to small
    businesses who are experiencing devastating consequences of
    this tariff policy.
        I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the Northern Mariana
    Islands for 5 minutes.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And I want to thank you, Dr. Mulligan, for making time to
    be with us today.
        So, as the Chairman has stated, I represent the Northern
    Mariana Islands. And 99 percent of our problem out of--we have
    99 problems. Ninety-eight percent of our problems can be
    directly attributed to rules--federal rules and regulations.
        We have one industry, which is the tourism industry. And
    just the other day, a few days ago, on my way back here, I was
    informed by one of our largest employers in the private sector
    that they are considering closing down.
        And this is an issue that the economy of the CNMI is
    something that I am deeply passionate about. And I have been
    communicating the challenges that we are having to the federal
    government as early as during the tenure of Secretary Pete
    Buttigieg, because when tourism is your primary industry DOT
    rules and regulations have a very significant impact.
        So I don't really have any questions for you, but I do have
    an ask, because all too often these federal policies have
    mainland firms in mind or mainland small businesses in mind. So
    I would ask for you to consider or committing to a direct
    outreach to small businesses in the CNMI, whether it be through
    virtual or whatever means.
        I also ask that your research and economic analysis, don't
    just lump us all in with Region 9, and I think that is the
    region that we fall under, because we are not like the West
    Coast. We are a remote island community.
        And also, it would be amazing if you guys could track and
    report the real world impact so that we can start actually
    getting ahead of some of these issues so that we can prevent a
    complete economic collapse of the CNMI, which I don't think
    anybody at the federal government wants.
        That is it. Thank you for your time.
        I yield my time.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New
    Jersey for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for
    convening this hearing.
        And thank you to our witness, Mr. Mulligan, for appearing
    before the Committee today.
        The SBA Office of Advocacy was created by Congress to be an
    independent voice for small businesses before the government,
    to make sure the real world cost of government policies are
    actually understood, and to ensure small business owners have
    someone in their corner when they are competing with big
    businesses.
        That mission is especially important right now. Small
    businesses are facing some of the toughest economic conditions
    since the Great Recession. Costs are up, margins are thin, and
    uncertainty is high.
        At the same time, Trump's administration has made
    deregulation a central policy priority and has directed its
    Office of Advocacy to gut key services to small businesses
    under the guise of cutting red tape across the federal
    government.
        When done thoughtfully, regulatory reform can help small
    businesses grow. I think all of my colleagues here can agree to
    that. But when it is rushed or done without transparency, it
    risks shutting small businesses out of the very processes meant
    to protect them.
        I have listened to the concerns of actual small businesses
    in my district and nationwide across a range of industries.
    Their concerns are very clear, Dr. Mulligan. They tell me that
    what is hurting them most right now is persistent inflation,
    tariffs, and rising healthcare costs after the Republican
    majority let the enhanced ACA tax credits expire.
        Small businesses need to know that the Office of Advocacy
    is fulfilling its statutory role as an independent, Dr.
    Mulligan, advocate. They also need to know whether the SBA's
    work is focused on the real economic conditions small
    businesses are facing or if it is serving a more partisan
    interest, Dr. Mulligan.
        Dr. Mulligan, Congress intentionally structured the Office
    of Advocacy as an independent entity within the SBA so that it
    could speak candidly, even when that means disagreeing with the
    administration. I want to inform you, Dr. Mulligan, that it is
    okay to disagree with the administration.
        Will you certify here that you did not have to clear the
    statements you made here today by any organ of the White House,
    especially the Office of Management and Budget and SBA?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        As I mentioned earlier, the OMB, Office of Management and
    Budget, they get a copy of my testimony at the same time that
    this Committee does.
        Mrs. MCIVER. That is your answer?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes. I would not call that clearing. That is
    a courtesy copy. ``Guess what, guys, I am going to the Hill. I
    am going to be part of a hearing. And here is what I am going
    to be saying.''
        Mrs. MCIVER. Did you have to get approval, yes or no?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. No, I did not get approval.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan----
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I sent it to you before they could possibly--
    --
        Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan----
        Mr. MULLIGAN.--open their mouth and comment on it.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan, when I say your name, that means
    I am reclaiming my time.
        How can America's small businesses trust you to speak truth
    to the administration when you couldn't even speak to us here
    today without their approval?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, that is loaded with false--thank you
    for your question, but it is loaded with false premises. I did
    not need their approval for my testimony today.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan, can you describe clearly on the
    record how you define independence in your role as chief
    counsel and what concrete safeguards are in place to ensure
    your office's positions are not directed or constrained by this
    administration?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yeah. Thank you for your question.
        The Office of Advocacy was really blessed with special
    statutes from Congress. They are so special I have them
    laminated. I carry them with me everywhere.
        Mrs. MCIVER. I mean, you obviously have a lot of things
    laminated right there in front of you.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. So actually this is the only laminated thing
    in front of me.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Well, you have all your statements there.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. And these special statutes include being open
    during the shutdown. That was special. If you want to call that
    independent, that is fine. It is not in the statute.
        But the hiring authority, it used to be, in the old days,
    to hire people the chief counsel needed the consultation and
    approval of the Administrator. That is no longer true. I have
    that in my laminated statute.
        The reporting rules, that there should not be clearance
    from OMB and the other federal agencies, that is another
    special rule that the office has, and we appreciate that and we
    follow that.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Mr. Mulligan, that concludes my questions. I
    will say that that question specifically should not need a
    laminated document for you to respond to.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. Van Duyne from the great State of Texas
    for 5 minutes.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
        And, Dr. Mulligan, I appreciate your testimony today.
        You have a really important job. I mean, I am listening to
    my colleagues on the other side of the aisle and it sounds like
    you have the most important job for small businesses in the
    government. Like, your job is to be the massive advocate.
        Can you tell me a little bit about your predecessor in your
    position? Since this is such an important job under the Trump
    administration and everybody on my Democrat colleagues
    recognize the fact that this is such an important job that
    small businesses have this advocate voice. Can you tell me
    about your predecessor?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        We have an empty chair right here. That is what it was for
    9 years. President Biden didn't even bother to nominate
    somebody for this.
        I think it is an important job. I enjoy doing it. And I am
    blessed that President Trump asked me to do this job.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. I recognize that. And I recognize that we
    have finally realized that we need to have a voice for our
    small businesses, because it seems like during the 4 years of
    the Biden administration they got absolutely crushed.
        How many additional regulations did you say that the Biden
    administration put on our small businesses?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. If we just count the final rules that were
    published in the Federal Register, it is 12,025.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. 12,000 in 4 years. And what was the cost of
    all those?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I mean, there are so many it is a little bit
    hard to say. But my best estimate is for the entire economy $6
    trillion--with a T.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Wow. Okay. And that crushed small
    businesses, right? Because they are at a disadvantage when you
    are looking at corporations, because corporations actually can
    have, like, an entire regulatory agency--or an entire
    regulatory department, a division.
        Small businesses don't have that. So they are relying on
    folks like you to be able to say: Look, when we have these
    regulations that we think are little that are coming out of
    these agencies, this can crush us.
        I mean, it is averaging what? It was $50,000 an employee,
    is what the small businesses were having to pay in addition to
    during the Biden administration?
        It is absolutely astonishing to me that after the previous
    4 years of that administration that we are finally having
    advocacy from our Democrat colleagues for small businesses, the
    $1.8 trillion that they added.
        We are hearing about tariffs and crushing the economy. I am
    sorry. What was the GDP growth last quarter?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I believe it was 4.3 percent annualized rate.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Wow. Okay. And we finally have wages now
    that are outgrowing inflation, right? So this is great for our
    small businesses.
        And the unemployment that they were talking about, what
    sector was that unemployment in, the increase in unemployment?
    It is the public sector, right? It was government jobs, right,
    that we had lost? But in the private sector, didn't we see an
    increase? Didn't we see more small businesses hiring?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes, that is correct. I mean, one very
    important statistic that we are seeing is new business
    applications. They were skyrocketing in 2025 to historic
    levels. We have never seen something like that.
        A lot of people say, including the previous administration,
    that those sort of applications, employer identification number
    applications, are quite an important predictor of future
    employment growth.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. So it seems like this administration
    actually gets it, that we are helping on the tariff side to
    make sure that our small businesses are able to compete
    globally, that we are helping them on the tax side with the One
    Big Beautiful Bill and the 199A on pass-through, recognizing
    that we want them to be able to compete with corporations.
        And then I actually have a bill that was passed off the
    House floor. It is the H.R. 2965, the Small Business Reduction
    Act of 2025. And basically what that says, it is a bill that
    any new rulemaking by the SBA is at no cost to small
    businesses.
        Now, it is not saying that you can't have additional
    regulations as necessary, as needed; but what it does say is
    you are going to have to cut some that are duplicative, that
    are unnecessary, that don't even reflect the intent of the law.
        Can I ask you how we can make that permanent, that we can
    actually codify the decrease in regulations on small
    businesses? And how do we create, like, a systemic culture of
    regulatory discipline where agencies will have to review with
    regulatory scrutiny?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        Just a few seconds we have left.
        I think regulatory budgeting is worth looking at. President
    Trump did that in the first term, EO 13771, and he is doing it
    again in this term.
        That is something that could be in the statute that
    Congress could be involved with, not just setting the money
    budget but also setting the regulatory budget.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay. Fantastic. I appreciate that.
        What has your office--in, like, the 10 seconds that you
    have got--what would you say are the top three things that you
    have gotten accomplished since you have been here?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I think being part of the regulatory agendas,
    saying what rules we are going to add and subtract and reform,
    that is huge. I am very, very gratified that so many agencies
    have asked for our input.
        Ms. VAN DUYNE. Fantastic. Thank you very much for what you
    do, and I appreciate your testimony here today.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Dr. Morrison from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking
    Member Velazquez, for holding the hearing.
        Thank you, Dr. Mulligan, for being here to testify.
        Since you represent the Office of Advocacy, which is
    intended to be the voice of small businesses, I am sorry to be
    redundant this morning, but I have to begin by asking you about
    the number one concern that I am hearing from small businesses
    in my district, which of course are the tariffs.
        Dr. Mulligan, during your testimony, you said that, ``When
    regulation tilts markets toward incumbents and away from new
    entrants, it directly undermines the small businesses that
    drive American innovation and job creation.''
        Do you agree that allowing large tech companies like Nvidia
    and Apple to negotiate directly with the President for tariff
    exemptions tilts markets towards incumbents? Yes-or-no
    question.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I am not familiar with the premise of the
    question, so I am not sure how to analyze. I haven't been part
    of the President's discussions with large businesses. My
    attention is on the small businesses.
        Ms. MORRISON. I will just give you one more chance.
        Do you agree that allowing large tech companies like Nvidia
    and Apple--we are all aware this happened--to negotiate
    directly with the President for tariff exemptions tilts markets
    towards incumbents?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I am not familiar with the policy. I can't really opine on
    something I am not familiar with.
        Ms. MORRISON. Okay. We will move on.
        Do you think tariffs are helping small businesses stimulate
    job creation?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        Probably the quickest way to answer it would be to go back
    to what I have heard about European terrible trade deals. I
    have heard these--again, this is not my opinion, my study. This
    is what I hear from the small businesses.
        Europe has a bunch of supply chain regulations that are
    going to cost small businesses a trillion dollars--with a T--
    and we didn't even get to vote for those people.
        President Biden was weak and ineffective on that policy----
        Ms. MORRISON. Dr. Mulligan, I am sorry to interrupt you,
    but I am not asking about Europe. I am talking about American
    small businesses.
        Mr. MULLIGAN.--and small businesses want a President who
    will fight back against these terrible international policies.
        Ms. MORRISON. Dr. Mulligan, I am reclaiming my time,
    respectfully.
        What I have been hearing repeatedly from small businesses
    is that they are the ones bearing the brunt of President
    Trump's tariff war. They are the ones being forced to eat the
    costs or lay off staff while larger corporations are able to
    lobby the President and receive exemptions.
        I really hope that during the coming months the Office of
    Advocacy does more than it has done this past year to protect
    small businesses from the impact of tariffs and ensure that
    small businesses are able to not just survive but to grow and
    prosper.
        During our first Small Business Committee hearing last
    year, I asked Mr. Karl Hutter, the CEO of Click Bond, a small,
    family-owned manufacturing business, how we can strike the
    right balance with regulations to encourage small businesses to
    thrive.
        His response was very clear. Small businesses, he said,
    need predictability, clarity, and workability.
        Dr. Mulligan, during your time here today you have made it
    clear that this administration has a very ambitious
    deregulatory agenda. In other words, we are going to see, and
    we are already seeing, a great deal of change and uncertainty
    in the regulatory space.
        What is the Office of Advocacy doing to help small
    businesses navigate the uncertainty deregulation brings with
    it?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        We have our Constitution and Presidents serve two terms at
    most.
        Ms. MORRISON. That is a relief to hear.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. And so the executive branch turns over.
        What has proven to be more durable are the statutes. And so
    one of the things that the Office of Advocacy does is advocate
    for small businesses here on the Hill, in writing statutes. And
    this Congress has been quite productive in that regard, 22
    Congressional Review Act disapprovals passed.
        And those are things that will last beyond the current
    administration, and that's providing a much-wanted certainty
    for our small businesses.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan. I did not hear how
    you are helping small businesses navigate the uncertainty that
    deregulation brings.
        But one final question. I am a physician by trade, so I am
    very familiar with the pain and frustration caused by
    administrative burden. I am sympathetic to the concerns raised
    by small business owners that extensive regulations can be
    onerous and burdensome.
        But I also recognize that regulations are critical to
    keeping people safe and healthy and keeping our air, land, and
    water clean.
        I hope we can all agree that finding that right balance
    between protecting Americans' health and safety while ensuring
    that small businesses can flourish is a goal worth pursuing.
        In the midst of the Trump administration's calls for
    deregulation, what steps will your office take to ensure there
    is that balance struck between this deregulatory agenda and
    protecting the health and safety of our small business owners
    and their employees.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        Yes, the balance is quite important. You need to listen to
    the small businesses. The false certifications are not
    achieving balance. That is ignoring costs and pretending they
    don't exist. You can't balance something that you are ignoring.
        Ms. MORRISON. So no comment on the air, land, and water?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. No, there is a balance between the mission--
    this is in the RFA itself--the mission of the regulatory----
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The time is up.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.
        And thank you, Dr. Mulligan, for being here today.
        I represent Montana's Second District, central and eastern
    Montana, very rural, and small businesses are very vital to our
    rural communities.
        And being somewhat of a glutton for punishment, I come out
    of the private sector. I have created a lot of--I have run a
    lot of small businesses in everything from manufacturing to
    distillation to securities to insurance to manufacturing. And I
    have personally seen how heavy-handed and unreasonable
    regulation can stifle growth and make it difficult, especially
    on small businesses, in being successful.
        And a lot of that, if you are boots on the ground, watching
    how this--everybody cares about bad actors. Everybody cares
    about protecting consumers. I would say bad actors are bad for
    industry. Nobody wants bad actors in their business.
        And so the thought that deregulating is going to create
    this petri dish of bad actors, I think, is misplaced. We do
    need to have reasonable side boards, but we also need to allow
    small businesses to be successful.
        And one of the things that caught my attention here is
    about raising the barrier to entry for competing in an industry
    and how that is different between larger companies who can
    manage the costs and the administrative burdens caused by this
    regulation, and main street really can't.
        And, Dr. Mulligan, in your testimony you mentioned this
    artificial advantage that government regulation creates for
    large businesses over small ones. Can you elaborate on the
    negative impact this artificial advantage has on economic
    innovation?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yeah. Thank you for your question.
        I think a vivid example that is worked on in some detail in
    a letter I sent to Commissioner Oz over at CMS about what has
    happened to independent physicians.
        They used to be a majority of physicians, and now they are
    quite a fairly small minority. And a lot of these regulations
    that we are discussing are part of the issue.
        The fact that the big hospitals, when they employ the
    physicians, they get extra government money that the
    independent physicians don't. That has been a factor in driving
    down the capability of independent physicians to stay in their
    small business mode.
        Mr. DOWNING. Right, right.
        By the end of 2024, the Biden administration had imposed
    $1.8 trillion in regulatory costs on American businesses.
        In your view, how much has the regulatory environment
    changed since President Trump's swearing-in, and what impact
    has it had on small business?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        It has been a 180-degree turn, such a huge change. I mean,
    there was so much regulation. I think $6 trillion is the best
    estimate that we have of the Biden regulations, just 4 years'
    worth of them.
        And now, there are some new regulations coming out, but a
    lot more regulations being taken away.
        What has been the impact on small businesses so far? I
    think it has been over $100 billion reduced costs as a result
    of President Trump's agencies' actions.
        Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you.
        And under your leadership, in what ways has the Office of
    Advocacy influenced rulemaking under the Trump administration
    in support of small businesses?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Really the two steps I like to talk about is
    listening. We continue to listen. That is my favorite part. I
    learn so much talking to the small businesses and hearing what
    they experience.
        And then relaying those experiences and trying to put it in
    practical terms for the agencies. Here are some rules you
    should look at. Here is what the small businesses are saying
    about the reasons to reform those rules.
        Mr. DOWNING. Right. Thank you.
        Well, I really appreciate your testimony here today.
        And, on that, Mr. Chair, I yield back the remainder of my
    time.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back his time.
        I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from the great State of
    California for 5 minutes.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank
    you and the Ranking Member for holding this hearing today.
        Dr. Mulligan, in your response to the Ranking Member's
    letter from November you declined to answer her question about
    the number of submissions related to tariffs because it was not
    in the scope of a hotline.
        After my colleagues across the aisle rejected my amendment
    to the bill that would codify the hotline, I introduced my own
    bill that would increase the scope of the hotline to give
    Advocacy an explicit role in hearing concerns from small
    businesses regarding tariffs.
        Is this something you would support, Dr. Mulligan?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I haven't been able to read your bill. I would like to
    study it before declaring my support or resistance.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Well, I mean, it is a simple question, right?
    Would you support the hotline reporting the information on
    tariffs, that you want to take a bigger concern in that? Is
    that something you would support?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        What I am clear on--one of the reasons our office has had
    such great successes in just 5 months is we used the right tool
    for the job, something my parents taught me, the right tool for
    the job.
        And the right tool for the red tape hotline is red tape.
    That is the job that you use the red tape tool for. So I
    wouldn't advocate using a hammer when you need a screwdriver or
    a wrench.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Well, it is a simple thing, right, to include
    more information right there? Tariffs are obviously hurting
    small businesses, and to gather that information to report it
    to the Committee is something that I hope you would support.
        And I hope you will take a look at my bill and do that,
    because it seems to align with what you said in the past, which
    is, it is consistent with your statement where you ask this
    Committee to consider legislation that gives the Office of
    Advocacy a more official role in trade policy.
        So with that, I will move to my next question.
        I hope you agree that the regional advocates are crucial
    because they serve as direct liaisons between local and small
    businesses and federal regulators.
        Region 9 covers California and several other States and
    Territories. I would like to read you the bio of the Region 9
    advocate for the Office of Advocacy website. It reads,
    ``Vacant, bio coming soon.''
        Mr. Chairman, I ask for unanimous consent that this Region
    9 advocate bio is entered into the record.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Dr. Mulligan, are you aware of how many small
    businesses there are in the State of California?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I don't have the exact number off the top of
    my head, but I would guess it is in the millions.
        Mr. CISNEROS. 4.3 million--4.3 million small businesses.
        Now, Dr. Mulligan, while there is no regional advocate for
    California's 4.3 million small businesses, when do you expect
    an appointment to be made for Region 9 advocates to ensure
    California's 4.3 million small businesses have their voice
    heard?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        We set a record over all other Presidencies before in terms
    of getting our outreach advocacy team, our regional advocacy
    team, filled in.
        We still do need to fill in Region 9. There was a long
    delay in my confirmation. I wasn't allowed to interview people
    for that position. But as soon as the Senate finally finished
    the job, I was interviewing people. And it wouldn't surprise me
    if it is just a matter of days or weeks that we have that
    position filled.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Do you have somebody that you have already
    talked to, that you have interviewed?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. I have talked to a number of people. It is a
    big priority to hear from small businesses everywhere.
        Mr. CISNEROS. So you have somebody in the pipeline that
    should be there, and so within the next few days I should hear
    a name, that somebody has been appointed to this?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. There is a lot of red tape in hiring people,
    so it is hard to commit to a date. But it is a priority, and I
    interview and I am pushing----
        Mr. CISNEROS. Well, I guess we are here to hear about
    cutting the red tape. So how do we kind of make this--do you
    make those cuts so you can make this?
        Look, I served in the previous administration. I know what
    it takes, and I know how it can be difficult sometimes. But
    this needs to be a priority, right?
        And this is, like, California has 4.3--and that is not
    including the other States in the region that add businesses to
    this too, and they deserve to have an advocate for them that is
    supporting them.
        You know, when we have had previous discussions before you
    came on board, it just did not seem to be a priority of this
    administration to put somebody in charge there. And, look, we
    have seen numerous times where the President has singled out
    California because it does not support him.
        And so I hope you are arguing or telling the administration
    to look beyond the political disagreements and that we need to
    support our small businesses, and we should have a Region 9
    director, and that they start making this a priority.
        And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of
    Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
        Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you very much, Dr. Mulligan. Appreciate your
    testimony. Appreciate the idea of--well, getting to know you
    better and working with you.
        I, too, am a small business advocate. I think we all are up
    here. And it is quite important, to say the least.
        Recently the NFIB put out some data that--and of course
    they have got tens of thousands of members--that small business
    optimism is way up, almost 10 percent since last November.
        So over the course of a year--or November of 2023, so over
    the course of President Trump's first year--we are up in
    optimism over 10 percent.
        And that is largely due, let's face it, to the taxes that
    all Republicans voted for in the 199A. Without those tax
    reductions, small businesses' taxes would have gone up 25
    percent, approximately, maybe slightly more in some cases
    depending upon level of income being earned.
        And that is enormous. I mean, many small businesses, of
    course, said they would be out of business if that weren't the
    case. Yet all Democrats felt it was in their interest to vote
    against it. That is amazing, I mean.
        Would you say that is a small business advocate that would
    vote to increase small business taxes by nearly 25 percent?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        We hear a lot from small business. Maybe the top thing, the
    internal revenue burden on small businesses, that is tough for
    so many of them. And so they would have problems with any new
    statutes that add to that.
        Mr. MEUSER. It would probably send some products overseas,
    wouldn't it, as well, right, even in spite of the so-called
    tariffs? And I want to get to that.
        But the work you have done on regulations is so very
    important. I would like you to make a side note where we need
    to codify some--whether the regulations, whatever.
        If you were sitting in my seat, what would you work on
    codifying? And we can talk about that afterwards. I won't just
    ask you to name it off the top of your head.
        But permitting, energy costs. Energy costs have been
    unbelievably important for small business. They have come down
    30 percent, something of that nature, over the course of the
    last 14 months.
        Workforce improvements. No tax on overtime is now kicking
    in. No tax on tips.
        There is a big difference--under President Trump we started
    rethinking trade, right? And we were taught: Oh, free trade,
    free trade, free trade. What did that do to U.S. manufacturing?
    Okay. Sent it overseas, I mean, like a giant sucking sound as
    we heard before.
        Japan had a hundred percent tariff on us. China had all
    kinds of tariffs on us. Everything was being made in China. Now
    we are bringing it back.
        And you know what many people don't understand? Because I
    was in small business for a long time too. Many small
    businesses' best customers are large businesses, right? So when
    those large businesses start sending their products overseas,
    guess what, it flattens, it destroys the small business.
        So the so-called tariffs--by the way, we had our shock and
    awe, we got the whole world's attention--now they have come
    down considerably.
        And, frankly, my office, we are small business advocates.
    We are not getting the calls on it. Initially, yeah, what is
    going to happen, particularly certain sectors.
        But would you say that in the small business world and in
    the calls that you are getting--and, by the way, your red tape
    hotline, I suggest you rename it the blue tape hotline, just a
    suggestion.
        But if you would, what sort of calls are you getting these
    days to your hotline?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        We get a variety of regulations. As I mentioned, 12,025,
    there is a whole variety.
        Mr. MEUSER. Right.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Regulations related to procurement is a
    fairly common one. A lot of health, Food and Drug
    Administration-type of regulations, CMS, HHS. Paperwork around
    IRS, we hear a fair bit about that.
        Mr. MEUSER. Well, while I have 45 seconds left, what would
    you suggest that we work on codifying that you are working on,
    and how else can we support your efforts?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I would like to get together with you afterward because I
    think it is important. President Trump won't always be our
    President. Congress can do things on a more durable basis. And
    we do hear from small businesses that they do appreciate when
    Congress comes in and provides durable solutions.
        Mr. MEUSER. Well, I absolutely welcome you up to
    Pennsylvania's Ninth Congressional District. It is a lovely
    ride. Maybe we can do that sometime in the near future.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes, ma'am.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. A correction here. It is not red--blue tape.
    It is blue waste that is coming.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Mr. Tran from the great
    State of California for 5 minutes.
        Mr. TRAN. Good morning. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking
    Member, for convening today's important meeting.
        Dr. Mulligan, welcome. Thank you for being here.
        While the future rates of tariffs are still uncertain, the
    costs are becoming clearer. Analysts estimated tariffs cost
    small business owners an additional $25,000 per month from
    April to September. Small business bankruptcies are up 10
    percent this year and up 23 percent in November alone.
        According to data from ADP, small businesses lost 120,000
    jobs in November, while larger ones continued gaining.
        I am deeply concerned because the data is showing that the
    U.S. bankruptcies and employment levels are reaching levels not
    seen since the Great Recession.
        What are you hearing from small businesses about the
    overall impact of tariffs on their businesses?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your questions.
        One of the key duties of the Office of Advocacy--in fact,
    it was the first one, even before the RFA--is economic
    research. And I appreciate your pointing to some of the
    statistics. That is something we try to track very carefully.
        One of the things that we have noticed, very large increase
    in new business applications in 2025, and we know that is
    essential for innovation. The new companies, not just small
    ones, but the small new ones, the new small ones, whichever way
    you want to call it.
        And there is a real boom in that area, and we are
    researching to understand more about exactly what parts of our
    economy, what parts of the country that is occurring, but that
    is something we are tracking pretty closely.
        Mr. TRAN. Great. And what steps have you taken to make sure
    that you convey these concerns and these views with the White
    House and the administration?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I am meeting with them regularly. As I mentioned in my
    testimony, they are reaching out to our office and saying: What
    input do you have? So this is happening literally every day.
        I guess, with the exception during the shutdown, it was a
    little quiet because the people on the other end of the phone
    weren't able to talk. But my office was open.
        Mr. TRAN. Dr. Mulligan, according to the U.S. Census
    Bureau, over 30 percent of small businesses are minority-owned
    and 42 percent are owned by women.
        My first question to you is, how will the office, your
    office, ensure that the outreach will reflect the geographical
    and demographic composition of small businesses throughout the
    country?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        There are a variety of things we do. One of the keys was
    very quickly try to fill in these regional advocate jobs. And I
    understand Region 9 is empty. But as I said, as soon as I was
    constitutionally allowed to start working on that, I have been
    working on that. I would like to see all regions filled. And I
    want to visit, myself, all the regions.
        So regional is one thing that is pretty easy to track, and
    it is important that I hear from all parts of the country, not
    just specific States or hot geographic areas. The whole country
    counts.
        Mr. TRAN. Great. And you are planning to have listening
    sessions or roundtables to listen to these folks all throughout
    the country?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Yeah. Thank you for your question.
        Roundtables is one of our favorite activities. Also, just
    crossing thresholds. I have gone out to different parts of the
    country and visit a business. Go to the Iowa State Fair, cold
    call on businesses who are--small businesses who are there.
        So we try to use all the tools that we have because, again,
    it is something that a lot of the other agencies in Washington
    don't have this outreach. So we need to do outreach well, and I
    appreciate your interest in it, and we are going to do
    everything we can to listen because that is what is really
    missing here in Washington.
        Mr. TRAN. That is great. And I welcome you to come out to
    my cities out in southern California to listen to the small
    businesses and their concerns out there.
        Then my final ask of you is, can you commit to providing
    this Committee with a breakdown of your outreach efforts,
    including location, participant types, business sizes, sectors,
    and demographics, so that Congress can evaluate the
    effectiveness of your outreach and determine whether you are
    meeting the needs of the entire small business community?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I would be very happy for the entire Committee to be aware
    of what regions we are making contact with.
        Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan.
        And with that, Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        Now, at this time, we are going to stand in recess because
    of the briefing we have at the CDC with Secretary Hegseth and
    Secretary Rubio.
        I ask that Members please return after the briefing to
    continue Member questions.
        [Recess.]
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The Committee will now come to order. I
    want to thank everybody for hanging in there with us. We will
    now resume Member questions under the 5-minute rule.
        I now recognize my friend from Maryland, Mr. Olszewski, for
    5 minutes.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to
    thank you, our Ranking Member, and Dr. Mulligan for today's
    conversation.
        I also, as I mentioned, Dr. Mulligan, want to appreciate
    your outreach to our Maryland fishermen. You mentioned the tie
    earlier in the briefing. So I do appreciate your outreach to us
    on that important issue.
        I am going to actually open my remarks this afternoon by
    acknowledging that I am a Democrat who is willing to admit that
    it was wrong and it is a mistake for the Biden administration
    not to name someone to fill your role in the past. And I think
    it is important that Members of our own parties are willing to
    do that.
        So just as I am willing to make that admission here, I know
    that we don't have as many Members on the other side of this
    recess, but I think it is really important that Republican
    Members of this Committee and this Congress also be willing to
    acknowledge when there is a disconnect or disagreement with the
    Trump administration. And so I just want to put that on the
    record.
        And I say all that because I know I often hear from small
    business owners who are impacted by misguided regulations that
    limit their ability to thrive in this economy.
        So we are looking for even the smallest of ways that we can
    make progress together. And, unfortunately, the Trump
    administration has in many plaices made costs go up--and not
    necessarily in small ways, but in massive, crushing ways.
        As we talked about earlier, tariffs was a huge issue we
    were discussing, and the Center for American Progress estimates
    that between April and September of 2025, small businesses paid
    about $25,000 more per month for imports compared to those in
    the same period of 2024.
        Tariffs on key commodities like steel and aluminum have
    added new layers of red tape, not fewer. And while I appreciate
    the outreach on the fisheries, this is an area where I feel
    like the Office of Advocacy could do better to substantively
    address these issues.
        Moreover, tariffs, as awful as they have been, are, sadly,
    not the only problem. The Republican majority of this Congress,
    with the full-throated support of President Trump, sat on the
    sidelines as tax credits to keep healthcare affordable expired.
        Now, why does this matter? It matters because half of all
    adult enrollees in the Affordable Care Act marketplace either
    own a small business or work for one.
        The Republican resistance to addressing these healthcare
    costs have led to, on average, a 75 percent increase in
    premiums. That is over $4,750 for the average American family.
        It is why I hope that my colleagues this week will join me
    in voting to roll back this shortsighted Republican tax on
    hardworking Americans and small businesses by extending these
    credits.
        Students at the University of Maryland School of Business
    recently came together to survey the impact on federal policy
    changes on the Maryland business economy.
        When asked about the most significant challenges they faced
    as business owners in 2025, Maryland business owners said
    answers like DOGE, federal policy changes, and our own
    government working against us to kill our industry.
        So we have some real challenges ahead. I look forward to
    working with the Chairman and you to find legitimate solutions
    that are for the small business owner.
        Chief Counsel, I know earlier you mentioned advocating for
    businesses. I guess my first question is, what, if anything,
    has your office done to calculate the impact of tariffs on
    small businesses?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        The two big steps I have been engaged in my first 5 months
    are, number one, listening to the small businesses wherever
    they are, whatever they have to say, and then communicating
    that to those who make the rules.
        My office doesn't make the rules----
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. But do you have any anything quantified,
    though, that you are using in terms of advocating for those
    small businesses?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. A project--and I have only been here 5
    months--one of the projects I have been quite interested in is
    the revenue burden on small businesses. Believe it or not,
    there is not a summary statistic of that, and we have hired
    some very good people to work on that. We are not finished yet.
        And revenue consists of particularly the internal revenue,
    but there is an external revenue component to it too.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Yeah. I hope that we would have that kind of
    data before the administration would choose to make those
    choices, and certainly want to support you so you have that
    kind of data, so you can argue against these tariffs that are
    hurting the average American business, the average American, in
    the same way that we know that these healthcare costs are
    crushing small businesses.
        And I want to work with you to help quantify that so that
    we can advocate for solutions. Our healthcare system costs have
    also gotten out of control.
        But in the meantime, we have to have a solution to address
    the fact that these are really tax increases crushing our
    businesses and Americans across this country.
        I thank you again for your presence, look forward to
    working with you.
        And with that, Mr. Chairman, yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        And I would like to let everybody know that Representative
    Schmidt is running up the hallway.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I am happy to take a few more minutes, if
    you want, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. And if you would like to take one more
    minute, I will give it to you.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I appreciate that, sir. Thank you very much.
        I know another area where we have talked a little bit about
    are the reductions and the rollbacks to the Inflation Reduction
    Act. President Trump has chosen to suspend a lot of those.
    There have been particularly green energy businesses across
    this country who have seen that.
        I am just curious, Dr. Mulligan, what your engagement has
    been like with those affected industries, and what you are
    hearing, and how you are helping them navigate those rollbacks.
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
        I am not sure I have organized my interactions under
    different statutes like the Inflation Reduction Act, but one
    that does come to mind, again, the fishermen.
        Fishermen are so unbelievably regulated. And they have
    repeatedly expressed to me concerns--environmental concerns--
    around the Inflation Reduction Act with especially the wind
    farms. And they are churning out hot water in places that are
    not supposed to be hot water, and it is hurting the whole
    fishing operation.
        And I think Secretary Burgum has been very quick to take
    action and to investigate that and stop any further damage to
    the fishing grounds due to wind farms.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I appreciate that.
        I appreciate the extra time, Mr. Chairman.
        And, again, Dr. Mulligan, I will just say I look forward to
    working with you to actually getting those quantifiable numbers
    around both the tariff impacts as well as the healthcare cost
    increases that we are trying to do something about this week.
        I thank you so much.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        And do we have a Dr. Schmidt sighting, or did he fall down
    in the hall or----
        VOICE. I hope not.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, I will just take this time too
    to--okay, he is coming in?
        STAFF. He is not in this hallway. I don't know which
    hallway he is in.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. I want to thank you for coming, to
    witness today. We appreciate it very much.
        I am a small business owner myself. I am in the car
    business back in Texas. And regulations and all the things
    which both sides have talked about today are damaging to the
    industry, and we appreciate you continuing to speak up and
    fight for us very much so.
        All right. Okay.
        You want to say anything, Mr. Witness? You want to talk
    about those mulligans you get on the first hole or anything in
    closing?
        Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, thank you for your question.
        Small businesses are very appreciative that now there is
    bipartisan agreement that Advocacy is an important office, and
    the chief counsel role needs to be filled.
        And they are thrilled that I am out there with my people
    listening to them. They feel heard. They feel like this is a
    real opportunity for change. And everything your Committee has
    contributed to that process, we appreciate that.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, thank you very much. We have a
    bipartisan Committee pretty much on just about everything, and
    we just want main street to thrive.
        I want to thank you again for your being here today, your
    testimony.
        Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to
    submit additional materials and written questions for the
    witness to the Chair, which will be forwarded to the witness.
        I ask the witness to please respond promptly if that
    happens.
        No further business, without objection, the Committee is
    adjourned. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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