[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
OVERSIGHT OF FRAUD AND MISUSE OF
FEDERAL FUNDS IN MINNESOTA: PART I
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
JANUARY 7, 2026
__________
Serial No. 119-54
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov
_______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
62-434 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Robert Garcia, California, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Maxwell Frost, Florida
Pat Fallon, Texas Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Byron Donalds, Florida Greg Casar, Texas
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Jasmine Crockett, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Emily Randall, Washington
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Wesley Bell, Missouri
Nick Langworthy, New York Lateefah Simon, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Dave Min, California
Eli Crane, Arizona Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
John McGuire, Virginia James R. Walkinshaw, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
Vacancy
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Ryan Giachetti, Chief Counsel
Daniel Falcone, Professional Staff Member
Robert Flores, Professional Staff Member
Jack Furla, Professional Staff Member
Mary Woodard, Senior Counsel
Mallory Cogar, Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. James Comer, U.S. Representative, Chairman.................. 1
Hon. Robert Garcia, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member.......... 3
WITNESSES
The Honorable Kristin Robbins, Representative (37A), MN House of
Representatives, Chair, Fraud Prevention and State Agency
Oversight Policy Committee
Oral Statement................................................... 5
The Honorable Walter Hudson, Representative (30A), MN House of
Representatives, Member, Fraud Prevention and State Agency
Oversight Policy Committee
Oral Statement................................................... 7
The Honorable Marion Rarick, Representative (29B), MN House of
Representatives, Member, Fraud Prevention and State Agency
Oversight Policy Committee
Oral Statement................................................... 9
Mr. Brendan Ballou (Minority Witness), Former Special Counsel,
U.S. Department of Justice
Oral Statement................................................... 10
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
* Article, The New York Times, ``Deadly Minneapolis Encounter
Is the 9th ICE Shooting Since September''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, CBS Minnesota, ``Director of Minnesota day care
featured in YouTube video on fraud responds''; submitted by
Rep. Garcia.
* Article, FOX 9 Minneapolis-St Paul, ``Feds say No indication
Minnesota fraudsters were seeking to fund terrorists'';
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, The Intercept, ``Minnesota Somali Fraud Video Source
Decried `Demon Muslims' ''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, The New York Times, ``More Agents Head to Minnesota
as U.S. Takes Over Shooting Investigation''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, Vox, ``Nick Shirley and his Viral Right-Wing Videos,
Explained''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ``Renee Nicole Good Identified as
Woman Shot, Killed by ICE in Minneapolis''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, The Guardian, ``Somalis are the Scapegoat--Fear
Rises as Trump Targets Minneapolis Community--Minneapolis'';
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, The New York Times, ``The ICE Shooting Came During
an Operation Focused on Somali Immigrants''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, CNN, ``Trump Attorney Eric Herschmann Now
Representing Brett Favre Amid Mississippi Welfare Scandal'';
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Press Release, ``Child Care Aware of America on Potential
Child Care Funding Freeze and Reports of Fraud''; submitted by
Rep. Garcia.
* Press Release, ``Child Care Movement Calls Out Trump
Administration's Freeze of Child Care Funding''; submitted by
Rep. Garcia.
* Press Release, ``Peters Unveils Report Finding Fired IGs
Identified More Savings than DOGE--Cmte Homeland Security
Governmental Affairs''; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Press Release, ``Trump Administration Rule Raises Child Care
Costs Amid Escalating Attacks--NWLC''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Statement from NAFCC, Childcare Funding Actions and Overall
Oversight; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, The New York Times, ``Somalis Fled Civil War and
Built a Community, Now They Are a Target''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, AIC, ``Immigrants Contribute Billions to Federal and
State Taxes Each Year''; submitted by Rep. Ansari.
* Article, AIC, ``Immigrants Do Not Commit More Crimes in the
US, Despite Fearmongering''; submitted by Rep. Ansari.
* Article, The Washington Post, ``Trump Amplifies Conspiracy
Theories on Killing of Minnesota Lawmaker''; submitted by Rep.
Ansari.
* Report, HSGAC, ``Undermining The Watchdogs''; submitted by
Rep. Bell.
* 18 U.S. Code, Section 666, Theft or Bribery Concerning
Programs Receiving Federal Funds; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Townhall, ``A YouTuber's Follow-up Video on MN Fraud
is Just as Wild''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, AZ Center for Investigative Reporting, ``Arizona has
Recovered 5% of Taxpayer Dollars Lost in Medicaid Fraud
Scheme''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, The Gateway Pundit, ``Beyond Parody, Craigslist Ad
from a Daycare Center in MN Seeks to Hire 20 Child Actors'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Biden Clemency for Convicted Fraudsters
Met With Outrage''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Must Read Alaska, ``Biden Pardons More People in His
Criminal Clan''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Townhall, ``Did You Miss This Story About Alleged
Medicaid Fraud From a Somali-Run Health Services Provider in
ME''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, The Gateway Pundit, ``Dr. Oz Orders Full Scale
Federal Audit of MN Medicaid Under Tim Walz''; submitted by
Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Alpha News, ``Exclusive, DHS Insider Claims Systemic
Issues in Addressing Fraud''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, NYP, ``Exclusive, Treasury, House Panel Launch
Probes into Tim Walz's Handling of $1B Food Aid Fraud'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, WH, ``Here is What the Trump Administration Is Doing
to Crush Minnesota's Fraud Epidemic''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller, ``HHS Freezes Childcare Payments to
Minnesota After Massive Fraud Alleged''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, AOL, ``Jonathan Turley Explains Why Feds Can Dig
Deep Into Somali Scammer Scandal''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Twitchy, ``Master Class--AG Hamilton Schools WaPo
Hack Playing Race Card to Defend Somali Fraud Ring''; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Minnesota Fraud Committee Chair Claims
Walz `Turned a Blind Eye' to Fraud Warnings for Years'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ``Minnesotas Quality Learing Center Fixes
Sign, Address Still Misspelled''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``MN Adds Medicaid Fraud Verification Amid
Alleged $9B Losses''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ``MN's Somali Fraudsters Paid for Rich
Lifestyles with Stolen Money''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller, ``Resurfaced Video Shows How Somali
Scammers Used Day Care Centers To Scam State''; submitted by
Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Washington Post, ``Scrutinizing SNAP Will Help
Ensure the Neediest Get Food Stamps''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, The Gateway Pundit, ``Senator John Kennedy Brings
Somali Fraud to the Senate Floor''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller, ``The Somali Fraud Scandal Gave Trump
a Kill Switch--What Happens If He Does Not Use It''; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Signal, ``Tim Walz Claims He Fired People Amid
Fraud Scandals But Won't Name Names''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, WSJ, ``Tim Walz Was Brought Down by a Scandal Hiding
in Plain Sight''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Wire, ``Trump Deploys 2,000 Federal Agents to
MN for Month-Long Immigration Crackdown''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ``Trumps Deputies Freeze Child Care
Payments to MN Amid Alleged Somali Fraud''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ``Unearthed Surveillance Video Shows
Parents Allegedly Helping With Fraud''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Article, Daily Wire, ``Venezuela Has Been Dealt With, Somali
Scammers Should Be Next''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, CNN Politics, ``Victims `Shocked' After Biden Grants
Clemency to `Kids-For-Cash' Judge and $54 Million Embezzler'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Viral Video's David Says He Filed
Complaint Against Walz Over Fraud Allegations''; submitted by
Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Washington Examiner, ``Walz Appointees Failed to
Stop Rampant Minnesota Fraud''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ``Walz in 2024 Debate, MN Made It Easier
to Get into Daycare Business''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Washington Post Calls for Welfare Reform
After MN Fraud Scandal''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, The Blaze, ``What Investigators Still Have Not Asked
About MN's Fraud''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* OpEd, Star Tribune, ``What is the Right Number''; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Press Release, HOGR Majority, ``Biden Crime Family Pardons
Serve as a Confession of Their Corruption''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Press Release, HHS, ``HHS to Close Biden-Era Loophole That
Lets States Pay Child Care Providers Without Counting
Attendance''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Report, Just The News, ``Feds Probe Hundreds of Millions in
Suspected Somali Cash in Luggage Leaving MN Airport'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* X Post, ``Oversight Project''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, American Experiment, ``Child Care Welfare Fraud'';
submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* Article, NYP, ``Former Homeland Security Agent Claims
Prosecutors Ignored MN Day Care Fraud Cases''; submitted by
Rep. Burlison.
* Report, Office of the Legislative Auditor, ``Child Care
Assistance Program, Assessment of Fraud Allegations'';
submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* Report, MN House Research, ``The Child Care Assistance
Program''; submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* US District Court for the District of MN, ``Application to
Execute Search Warrant on Ultimate Health Services LLC'';
submitted by Rep. Comer.
* MN OLA, ``Audit of MN DHS Behavior Health Administration
Grants''; submitted by Rep. Comer.
* Article, Breitbart, ``Database Searches Show Somali
Fraudsters Funding Democrat Politicians''; submitted by Rep.
Crane.
* Article, CNBC, ``Health Care Fraudster Philip Esformes is
Latest Trump Clemency Recipient to be Arrested''; submitted by
Rep. Crockett.
* Article, The Palm Beach Post, ``Trump Commutes Sentence of
Dr. Salomon Melgen after Medicare Fraud Conviction''; submitted
by Rep. Crockett.
* Article, Truthout, ``Trump Grants Clemency to Executive Who
Led $205M Medicare Fraud Scheme''; submitted by Rep. Crockett.
* Article, McKnight's Long-Term Care News, ``Trump Pardons
Nursing Home Owner and Supporter Convicted of $7M Tax
Evasion''; submitted by Rep. Crockett.
* Letter, from Whistleblowers, Requesting Congressional
Oversight; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Article, American Experiment, ``Feeding Our Future--Keith
Ellison caught on tape!''; submitted by Rep. Fallon.
* Article, City Journal, ``It's Not `Racist' to Notice Somali
Fraud''; submitted by Rep. Fallon.
* Article, New York Post, ``Minnesota whistleblowers being
`electronically surveilled' after reporting fraud''; submitted
by Rep. Fischbach.
* Letter, from DHS Whistleblowers; submitted by Rep. Fischbach.
* Article, The New York Times, ``Why Did a Charity Tied to
Casey DeSantis Suddenly Get a $10 Million Boost''; submitted by
Rep. Frost.
* Article, Minnesota Reformer, ``A Somali-American Former
Investigator--Why You're Hearing About Fraud in My Community'';
submitted by Rep. Gill.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ``Is the Walz Administration
Finally Awake About MN Fraud''; submitted by Rep. Gill.
* Article, City Journal, ``The Largest Funder of Al-Shabaab is
the Minnesota Taxpayer''; submitted by Rep. Gill.
* Article, FoxNews, ``Comer Vows Minnesota Fraud Probe Will
Expand to Other States Amid Mounting Scrutiny''; submitted by
Rep. Mace.
* Article, Congresswoman Michelle Fischbach, ``Legislators
Blast DHS for Revelations it had Contracts With Feeding Our
Future Fraudsters''; submitted by Rep. Mace.
* Letter, January 6, 2026, from MN DHS IG, to Chair Robbins;
submitted by Rep. Mfume.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ``Contrary to Trump's claims,
Somalis add $8B to MN economy''; submitted by Rep. Pressley.
* Report, ``Trump's Clemency Gap: How Trump's Pardons are
Ignoring the People Who Need Them the Most''; submitted by Rep.
Pressley.
* Article, The New York Times, ``Health Dept. Freezes $10
Billion in Funding to 5 Democratic States''; submitted by Rep.
Simon.
* Article, The Intercept, ``Minnesota Somali Fraud Video Source
Decried `Demon Muslims' ''; submitted by Rep. Tlaib.
* Article, CNN Politics, ``USAID IG Fired Day After Report
Critical of Impacts of Trump Administration's Dismantling of
the Agency''; submitted by Rep. Walkinshaw.
The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.
ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS
* Questions for the Record: Mr. Brendan Ballou; submitted by
Rep. Shontel Brown.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Walter Hudson; submitted by
Chairman James Comer.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Marion Rarick; submitted by
Chairman James Comer.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Kristin Robbins; submitted by
Chairman James Comer.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Kristin Robbins; submitted by
Rep. Michael Turner.
These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be
available upon request.
OVERSIGHT OF FRAUD AND MISUSE OF
FEDERAL FUNDS IN MINNESOTA: PART I
----------
WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 7, 2026
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in
room HVC-210, U.S. Capitol Visitor Center, Hon. James Comer
[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Comer, Jordan, Turner, Gosar,
Foxx, Grothman, Cloud, Palmer, Higgins, Sessions, Biggs, Mace,
Fallon, Donalds, Perry, Timmons, Burchett, Boebert, Luna,
Langworthy, Burlison, Crane, Jack, McGuire, Gill, Garcia,
Norton, Lynch, Krishnamoorthi, Khanna, Mfume, Stansbury, Frost,
Lee, Casar, Crockett, Randall, Subramanyam, Ansari, Bell,
Simon, Min, Walkinshaw, Pressley, and Tlaib.
Also present: Representatives Emmer, Stauber, Fischbach,
and Finstad.
Chairman Comer. The hearing on the Committee on Oversight
and Government Reform will come to order. I want to welcome
everyone here today.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN JAMES COMER
REPRESENTATIVE FROM KENTUCKY
Good morning. Today, the House Oversight Committee is
holding its first hearing on the massive fraud in Minnesota's
social services program. Minnesota social services, which are
funded by you, the American taxpayer, are being ripped off. The
most vulnerable are suffering as a result. Federal prosecutors
estimate that these criminals have stolen at least $9 billion.
The fraudsters, many of whom are from Minnesota's Somali
community, have stolen from programs meant to feed needy kids,
provide services to autistic children, house low-income and
disabled Americans, and provide healthcare to vulnerable
Medicaid recipients. Fraudsters like these take millions to
enrich themselves while providing nothing, overstating or
outright faking the services.
How many children have gone hungry because fraudsters stole
money that was intended to provide them with food? How many
autistic children were denied services because fraudsters
instead sent this money overseas? How many low-income seniors,
people with disabilities, or those with mental illnesses were
denied access to housing because fraudsters drained resources
and pocketed the money for themselves?
The breadth and depth of this fraud is breathtaking, and I
fear that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
The U.S. Department of Justice is already investigating
another Minnesota service program after a disabled man,
battling drug addiction, under the care of a fraudulent full-
time provider, died because of neglect. Governor Tim Walz,
Attorney General Keith Ellison, and Minnesota's Democrat
leadership have either been asleep at the wheel or complicit in
these crimes.
How could they allow this massive fraud to go on for years?
This is why we are here today. We must expose this theft of
taxpayer dollars and hold everybody accountable who let it
happen.
Today we are joined by witnesses from Minnesota State House
of Representatives who have been fighting this fight for years.
These legislators are on the front lines, uncovering fraud in
Minnesota social services programs day in and day out, and
trying to get their state agencies to fix it. Thank you all for
what you are doing to uncover the truth.
This is not just a Minnesota problem. It is a problem for
taxpayers across the United States. About 35 percent of
Minnesota's budget comes from Federal grants; 35 percent of
Minnesota's budget comes from Federal grants.
Hardworking Americans pay those taxes, and that money is
being funneled to fraudsters, funding luxury homes, fancy cars,
and vacations abroad. Some of it is even allegedly going
overseas to support terrorists.
And, yet, Governor Walz, Attorney General Ellison, and
Minnesota Democrats failed to act despite countless warnings.
They failed Minnesotans, and all Americans, handing millions of
taxpayer dollars to fraudsters. They failed children and others
in Minnesota. They failed their own state employees, some of
whom have come forward as whistleblowers. These whistleblowers
have told us that the Walz Administration retaliated against
employees who warned and alerted the Administration to the
fraud occurring within these social services programs. Again,
Governor Walz accused employees, who were simply doing their
jobs, of racism, Islamophobia, and threatened surveillance to
silence them.
President Trump and his Administration are taking a whole-
of-government approach and prosecuting these fraudsters. To
date, the U.S. Department of Justice has charged 98 defendants
in Minnesota fraud-related cases, 85 of whom are of Somali
descent; 64 have already been convicted.
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security is on the ground
conducting investigations of suspected fraud sites in
Minnesota.
The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has frozen
childcare payments and started requiring documentation to prove
entities are indeed providing childcare.
Other Federal agencies are halting grant programs,
investigating public housing fraud, and strengthening program
eligibility requirements.
The American people demand jail time for those who stole
their hard-earned money and accountability for officials who
sat by as resources were drained.
Congress must ensure there is change and accountability, so
this does not happen again.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today.
Americans thank you all for exposing this critical issue.
And, with that, I yield to Ranking Member Garcia for his
opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER ROBERT GARCIA
REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Chairman Comer. I just want to start
by thanking, of course, our witnesses for being here today and
for all of our Members being back.
We all agree--I think everyone on both sides of the aisle
can agree that fraud is a threat at every level of government,
in every private sector business, and to every single American.
Fraud exists everywhere. When I was mayor of my hometown in
Long Beach, we worked for better and more efficient government
and took on fraud whenever it existed and wherever it appeared
to protect taxpayers. It is something that all of us take
seriously every single day. When we find fraud, we should
punish people and those that are committing it against the
American public, especially when it damages services that
people rely on.
Now, what we should not do is use fraud as an excuse to rip
away aid from innocent people who follow the rules and need
help in our society. We should fight fraud when people rip off
programs designed to help working families. And, also, we
should fight fraud when large corporations and wealthy
individuals dodge their own taxes and rig the system for their
own benefit. And, especially, we should fight fraud when
figures in our government, particularly those in power within
the White House or agencies, get rich and profit from their
offices.
Fraud is never acceptable, and it undermines public trust,
whoever commits it. But let us remember that some of the worst
fraud and corruption is actually found at 1600 Pennsylvania
Avenue. Republicans like to talk about fraud in states with
Democratic Governors, oftentimes exclusively. But Republicans
also have a President who has pardoned or reduced jail time for
25 criminals convicted of fraud in this year alone. Now, some
of these fraudsters have made also huge campaign contributions
to Donald Trump. And, worst of all, Trump's pardons mean that
these criminals can avoid paying back more than $1 billion
which they owe their victims and dwarfs much of the fraud that
the House Majority wants to talk about today.
This is actually the opposite of accountability. Instead,
the House Majority wants to excuse and cut programs, which they
have done from the start. Now, Donald Trump's signature law cut
money for healthcare and food programs. Medicaid and CHIP help
almost half the kids in the United States see a doctor. And
that, we lost, of course, a trillion dollars in those programs.
Over ten million people could lose healthcare. Trump's law also
cut 40 million people who use SNAP. And this includes, by the
way, one out of every five kids. And this is happening not just
in Minnesota.
The President plans to freeze more than ten billion for
childcare subsidies, social services, and cash support for low-
income families in Minnesota, New York, Colorado, Illinois, and
my home State of California. Of course, we know these states
have Democratic Governors that Donald Trump wants to punish.
And we should look at those consequences if we want to talk
about fraud.
In Minnesota, which we are talking about today, Donald
Trump is removing childcare funding for the entire state. That
frozen funding provides childcare for over 18,000 kids. These
kids did not commit fraud. So, I want to know why they should
be punished. Last night, he said he is withholding all,
possibly, Medicaid funds from Minnesota, which could harm one
in five residents. Now, in New York, another state he is
threatening, that is over 66,000 innocent kids while pardoning,
of course, 25 fraudsters and robbing victims of over $1
billion.
Donald Trump should have to face the kids and parents who
will be hurt even though they have done nothing wrong. I want
to know what the President and the House majority expect the
parents of these kids to do.
Many do not seem to care. He wants to pardon and protect
more rich crooks and fraudsters who have robbed over a billion
dollars from innocent people.
Now, in California, in my home state, this threatens over
176,000 kids--176,000 kids--while he continues, of course, to
pardon fraudsters and connected folks that have donated immense
amounts of money to his campaign.
Now, this hurts not just Democratic families but Republican
families. It is innocent kids, regardless of political party,
who need childcare. We are in an affordability crisis, and the
Majority is not going after the real fraud being committed to
the American public.
Now, in Illinois, he has threatened funding for more than
62,000 kids--62,000 kids. And, finally, in Colorado, the other
state that he is going after, more than 16,000 kids will lose
funding.
But we know, of course, that the President will let his
friends get away with crime. And I want to point out one last
thing which is so important.
While Donald Trump attacks these states, the Wall Street
Journal on Monday reported a massive Mississippi scandal.
Mississippi, of course, is not on Trump's list. We do not have
witnesses from Mississippi here today. Oversight Republicans
are not calling in Governor Tate. And I think the question is
why? We have real fraud happening yet there is zero interest,
apparently, in what is happening here in Mississippi and other
places.
Republicans want to cut benefits and attack states with
Democratic Governors. And, what it has done, particularly in
places like Minnesota, it has unleashed bigotry and hate.
Minnesota childcare centers have become the target of
harassment and even vandalism and theft. Parents are afraid to
drop their kids off in the morning and go to work.
This is an opportunity, again, to attack for the House
Majority and smear innocent people without evidence. If we
cared about fraud, we would be starting at the very top. This
is critical for the country and to actually take on fraud and
abuse and the fraudsters that are being pardoned across the
United States. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
I would like to now welcome our witnesses here today.
First, we have Kristin Robbins, Chairwoman of the Fraud
Prevention and State Agency Oversight Policy Committee and
Representative for District 37A in the Minnesota House of
Representatives. Welcome.
Next, we have Walter Hudson, a member of the Fraud
Prevention and State Agency Oversight Policy Committee and
Representative from Minnesota's District 30A.
Next, we have Marion Rarick, a member of Fraud Prevention
and State Agency Oversight Policy Committee and Representative
for District 29B in Minnesota.
Last, we have Brendan Ballou, a former special counsel at
the Department of Justice.
Thank you all for joining us, and we look very forward to
your testimony today. This is an issue the American people are
very interested in.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please
stand and raise their right hand.
Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to
give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. Let the record show that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative.
Thank you all, and you may take a seat.
We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your
testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your
written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing
record. Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. As a
reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of
you so that it is on and the Members can hear you. When you
begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green.
After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light
comes on, your 5 minutes have expired, and we would ask that
you please wrap up.
I now recognize Representative Robbins for her opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. KRISTIN ROBBINS
REPRESENTATIVE (37A)
MINNESOTA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
CHAIR, FRAUD PREVENTION AND STATE AGENCY
OVERSIGHT POLICY COMMITTEE
Ms. Robbins. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members. Thank
you for inviting us to testify.
As Chair of the Fraud Prevention Committee in Minnesota, I
have been working to uncover the massive fraud under Tim Walz,
propose solutions, and hold state agencies accountable. Today I
will highlight the scale of the problem, outline the work our
Committee is doing to fight the fraud, and provide a road map
for other states on how to detect and stop fraud.
Minnesota is one of the highest taxed states in the Nation,
and hardworking Minnesotans have been told that they do not pay
their fair share for years. In truth, Minnesotans pay much more
in taxes than in other states. And, when they pay their taxes,
they expect that their money is going to things that help our
communities: roads, schools, healthcare, and law enforcement.
They do not want their tax dollars absconded by criminals to
buy resorts and apartment buildings in Kenya, property in
Turkey, and luxury homes and cars in the United States.
Tim Walz and his Administration have willfully turned a
blind eye to crime in the face of countless whistleblower and
auditor reports as well as stories by local investigative
journalists and the Center of the American Experiment.
These are actual crimes that must be punished. They are
crimes against our moral values and erode trust in government.
The time for accountability and justice is here.
First, we are unearthing staggering amounts of fraud in
Minnesota. As far back as 2014, there were credible
whistleblower allegations of millions in daycare fraud. Instead
of shutting it down, the state minimized whistleblower reports
and allowed fraud to grow. Unfortunately, childcare fraud was
just the tip of the iceberg.
Since 2019, Tim Walz and Minnesota Democrats have allowed
fraud to absolutely explode in Minnesota. There has been more
than $300 million in the Feeding our Future child nutrition
program scandal. And the Feeding our Future prosecutions
revealed that as many as half of those indicted also ran other
Medicaid-funded programs. Yet, despite this being known back in
2023, Tim Walz and his agencies have done nothing to stop those
defendants from getting additional state money.
We have now found fraud in multiple Medicaid programs,
including autism centers, sober homes, non-emergency medical
transportation, integrated community supports, and housing
stabilization. Just last month, our Committee held a hearing on
credible allegations of fraud in two new areas: adult day
services and assisted living.
First U.S. Attorney Joe Thompson, the leading prosecutor in
these cases from the Biden Administration and the Trump
Administration, says the fraud could be an astronomical $9
billion. In the face of mounting reports and literal criminal
indictments and convictions, the Walz Administration has
repeatedly and publicly denied or downplayed the fraud. Just
last January, the Commissioner of the Department of Homeland
Security (DHS), Jodi Harpstead, who had been on the job for
five and a half years, said, ``There are a lot more rumors of
fraud than there is actual fraud.''
You cannot make this up. The Walz Administration has been
gaslighting Minnesotans on the scale of the fraud problem for
years. In response, when Republicans took control--or ended
Democrat control of the Minnesota House last year, we created
the Fraud Prevention and State Agency Oversight Committee.
Since last February, we have held 15 hearings where we have
grilled officials, exposed new areas of fraud, and repeatedly
flagged failures in internal controls.
I authored a new law to expand whistleblower protection,
and we created a portal, mnfraud.com, resulting in a surge of
new whistleblower reports that our amazing staff is still
working through.
Under the leadership of our Vice Chair, Patti Anderson, we
passed a bipartisan bill in the Senate to create an independent
Office of Inspector General. When it got to the House,
Democrats killed it because the DHS Commissioner testified
against it.
The Tim Walz Administration has utterly failed to protect
Minnesota taxpayers and vulnerable citizens, ignoring years of
credible reports and retaliating against those who spoke up,
often by claiming they were racist or Islamophobic. Tim Walz
and the Democrats have repeatedly protected their political
base at the expense of all Minnesotans. Other states should
learn from the failures of the Walz Administration. So, I will
give you a quick road map on how to find and stop fraud.
First, culture matters. Fraud flourishes when leaders
ignore it and criminals see they can get away with it.
Second, fraud flourishes when basic internal controls are
not followed. This is not complicated.
Third, you have to look at the interconnections of
relationships in businesses and multiple program areas in
Medicaid. It is a huge red flag that has been ignored in our
state.
Finally, it is important to say what is true and to stand
up against fake allegations of racism or Islamophobia. Crime is
crime no matter who is committing it. It is true that the
majority of the fraud in Minnesota has taken place in the
Somali community. And it is also true that some of our best
whistleblowers are from the Somali community. Democrats refuse
to acknowledge this truth, and that has enabled criminals to
steal billions and hurt our vulnerable citizens.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to share the
lessons from Minnesota and for your help in investigating these
crimes. The time for justice and accountability is now.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. I now recognize Representative
Hudson for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. WALTER HUDSON
REPRESENTATIVE (30A)
MINNESOTA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
MEMBER, FRAUD PREVENTION AND
STATE AGENCY OVERSIGHT POLICY COMMITTEE
Mr. Hudson. Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members of the
Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today for
the record. I am Minnesota State Representative Walter Hudson,
a second term member who sits on our House Fraud Prevention and
State Agency Oversight Committee.
The recent national conversation about fraud in Minnesota
has been fraught with distractions, diverting from critical
concerns regarding process, policy, and oversight, to sideshow
concerns about personalities and partisan politics. My role
here today is to cut through all of that and provide you with a
clear picture of a culture which has developed over many years
around the several generous benefit programs which Minnesota
provides to our residents.
Well-documented oversight failures have led to a lack of
program integrity, creating incentives for people to monetize
programs beyond their legislative intent, to turn benefits into
business. Contrary to the claim just made by the Ranking Member
that there is no evidence of this fraud, attached to my written
testimony you will find a document which collates several
reports made over the past 15 years by Minnesota's nonpartisan
Office of Legislative Auditor along with transcripts of each of
our hearings from the Fraud Committee, where we heard directly
from staff and leaders within the state agencies which
administer these programs.
Here is what that record indicates: Within the State of
Minnesota, government oversight has been unable to keep up with
program expansion due to a combination of factors. One, rapid
expansion of funding and provider participation. Two, payment
systems that prioritize access and speed. Three, verification
mechanisms that occur after funds are distributed. Four,
oversight capacity that does not scale with spending. And,
five, diffuse accountability across agencies and contractors.
This combination of factors has fostered a booming new
sector of the economy that relies upon the continuation of and
expansion of government programs to fuel private sector
profits.
I want to be clear: Even when the law is being followed
precisely, by every jot and tittle, incentives still exist to
abuse these programs and waste taxpayer dollars by diverting
funding to profit centers rather than providing a safety net
for those in temporary need.
Now, criminal fraud is rampant. Deputy U.S. Attorney Joe
Thompson serving the district of Minnesota has said that he
could keep a thousand prosecutors busy. But he is limited to a
mere 25, only five of which are tasked with building fraud
cases. He estimates that the total amount of criminal fraud
over five years may reach $9 billion, which is fully one-half
of the money that has been directed to these programs by the
state.
While Governor Tim Walz and other stakeholders dispute that
assessment, the point I wish to emphasize is this: Whatever the
actual number is, the full scope of the problem is not just
criminal fraud but a culture of profiting from government
programs in perpetuity, not as a safety net but as an industry.
I have personally met and had discussions with folks who
identify themselves as consultants for multiple entities
accepting government benefits. They have made a career out of
showing people how to leverage the gaps in government oversight
to maximize benefit payments.
Now, such conduct may not actually break the law. And that
is the point. We have a system whereby an entire industry can
operate under the color of law, raking in tremendous profits
for individuals all while having no incentive to save the
taxpayer money or lift legitimate beneficiaries out of need.
Instead, as the market for funneling benefits into
businesses increases, so too does the perceived need for
benevolent services. If nothing changes, if oversight is not
tightened, if incentives are not changed, spending on these
programs will only continue to increase with no commensurate
increase in either public good or public confidence in our
governing institutions.
Thank you for the opportunity to submit this testimony for
the record. I look forward to answering what questions I can.
Chairman Comer. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Rarick for her opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. MARION RARICK
REPRESENTATIVE (29B)
MINNESOTA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
MEMBER, FRAUD PREVENTION AND
STATE AGENCY OVERSIGHT POLICY COMMITTEE
Ms. Rarick. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members. For the
record, my name is Marion Rarick, and I am currently serving in
the Minnesota House of Representatives in House District 29B. I
am a member on the Minnesota House Fraud Prevention and State
Agency Oversight Committee, which was recently formed in
January '25.
I was first asked to serve on the Committee in January--on
January 4, and soon after, the five Republican members began to
meet. During one of those discussions, I was asked to reach out
to the Department of Human Services whistleblowers on X, now
called Minnesota Staff Fraud Reporting Commentary.
I had been following them in the previous year. I reached
out through a direct tweet on X on January 16, and the very
same day I got a response back that, yes, they would be willing
to speak to the Fraud Prevention Committee.
Since that first contact, Chair Robbins and I and
Representative Hudson have had multiple conference calls with
them, and we have had one in-person meeting. At that meeting,
there were both former and current employees.
I have continued to message with them very often, sometimes
daily, and their collective message has been completely
consistent. Instead of focusing on fraudsters, DHS leadership
instead focused its surveillance on employees. Since then,
their expressed fear of retaliation has intensified under an
avalanche of fraud in Minnesota. Their numbers have grown from
480 DHS employees, both current and former, to over 1,000
across multiple state agencies.
They have told me repeatedly how grateful they are to the
House Fraud Prevention Committee for focusing our attention on
fraud in the state programs, using their inside information
while keeping them completely protected. They have explained
that they live in a constant state of fear of retaliation. One
only has to look at what happened to Faye Bernstein to
understand why. In a very recent Newsweek article dated
December 13 of 2025, Ms. Bernstein, a former compliance
specialist, stated, ``Minnesota DHS functions in the opposite
manner as you would think. Employees who suggest improvements
or, heaven forbid, report fraud then face significant
retaliation. The messenger is shot.''
In 2019, Bernstein said she alerted Minnesota DHS officials
to sloppy contracting practices that were not legally
compliant. But it is not what most people would even consider
fraud. She says she was later escorted out of the building,
faced lengthy investigation, got trespassed from all DHS-owned
and leased properties, and received involuntary transfer to
another state agency. So, she says, ``So, today, if someone
asked me should I report fraud within DHS, I say no, no, no. It
is career suicide plus a whole lot more.''
So, let us talk about that, ``plus a whole lot more.'' In
our face-to-face meetings with a group of whistleblowers, they
reveal that retaliation now includes threats of being fired
with cause, which means you do not get unemployment insurance
in the State of Minnesota, being blacklisted from all state
agencies, and I would note, most likely, our largest counties
as well, which are Democrat run, and then there was a veiled
threat of the use of military intelligence against them.
They later informed me that it was discovered that in some
targeted employees' or suspected whistleblowers' personnel
files were pictures of their homes and their cars. They also
described that supervisors asked them questions about their
families that, to them, felt like a threat. One example was
``We need to know where your kids go to school and where their
bus stops are.''
I will also note that whistleblowers we spoke to described
many times that DHS used surveillance programs to surveil
employees' emails and chats and other communications, looking
for key words like fraud, double-billing, underspending, and
overpayments.
One example that the whistleblowers let me know about
Lieutenant Governor Flanagan--April 12, 2024, Flanagan comes to
a DHS Health and Human Services equity conference at the
Heritage Center and Brooklyn Center. On stage, Flanagan
acknowledges the X account and the fraud concerns it raised and
publicly denounced the X users and called them weirdos and
losers sitting in their mothers' basement. This was in a public
setting with hundreds of participants, and it elicited gasps
among the crowd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Thank you.
I now recognize Mr. Ballou for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF MR. BRENDAN BALLOU (MINORITY WITNESS) FORMER
SPECIAL COUNSEL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Mr. Ballou. Thank you. My name is Brendan Ballou. I am a
former Federal prosecutor and a native Minnesotan.
Like all Minnesotans, like all Americans who have heard
this story, I am deeply distressed by the fraud on the state
social service programs. Most notably, in 2022, the Department
of Justice indicted 47 people for stealing an estimated $246
million in funds meant to feed children during the COVID-19
pandemic. As late as 2025, 78 people have been indicted as part
of this scheme, and 56 have pleaded guilty. More recently, the
Department has charged over a dozen people for stealing $14
million from a program meant for children with autism and
millions more from a program meant to help disabled Minnesotans
maintain stable housing.
This is heartbreaking for several reasons. At the most
basic level, money meant for the neediest among us--the hungry,
the disabled, the destitute--was stolen. I fear that skepticism
of Minnesota's social safety net, one of the things that makes
the state great, will grow, and it will be harder to fund these
programs in the future. And I fear that the actions of a few
people will be used to demonize an entire population of Somali
and East African Minnesotans who overwhelmingly have made the
state more vibrant, more diverse, and more prosperous.
I also fear the selective interest in fraud in America,
because, at the same time that these crimes are rightly being
investigated by state and Federal authorities, the larger
infrastructure for prosecuting fraud and white-collar crime is
being dismantled. Let me give you a few examples.
In February 2025, the Department of Justice paused
enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which
prohibits foreign bribery, and criminal violations of the
Foreign Agents Registration Act which, as the name suggests,
prohibits acting as a secret agent of a foreign power.
Between February and April of last year, the Department
disbanded its KleptoCapture Task Force, which enforced
sanctions against Russian oligarchs and the National
Cryptocurrency Enforcement Team. And, last year, the Department
forced out most of the lawyers of the Public Integrity Section,
which prosecutes crimes by government officials, announced
plans to dismantle the Tax Division, which prosecutes tax
evasion, and shuttered the FBI task force that investigated
congressional misconduct.
More than just dismantling infrastructure for pursuing
violations of the law, the government is, for favored
defendants, appearing to enable it. In 2024, the Justice
Department indicted Andrew Wiederhorn, the CEO of a casual
fast-food chain, for allegedly stealing $47 million from his
own company. After his business donated $100,000 to the Trump
inaugural committee, his case was dropped, and the line-level
prosecutor on his case was fired.
In 2021, the Department sued Boeing for deceiving the
government about the software that caused two plane crashes,
killing 346 people. After donating $1 million to the inaugural
committee, Boeing negotiated a favorable deferred prosecution
agreement that the judge overseeing the case said, quote,
``fails to secure the necessary accountability to ensure the
safety of the flying public.'' But he felt compelled by
precedent to accept it, nevertheless.
The examples continue. Banks that contributed to the
inaugural committee had litigations against them for violating
consumer financial protection laws dropped, and so, too, did
cryptocurrency companies that were investigated and sued by the
Securities and Exchange Commission and who contributed to the
inaugural committee.
Crucially, those crypto companies that did not donate to
the committee or other affiliated entities remain defendants of
the government.
The scale of these frauds involve millions stolen and
hundreds killed, and yet they have received a fraction of the
attention of the fraud that happened in Minnesota. This
concerns me because we are both dismantling our infrastructure
for fighting fraud and providing a road map for how those
fraudsters who are prosecuted can buy their way out of justice.
While we need to pursue the fraud we are seeing in
Minnesota social safety programs for all the reasons I said,
because it is the weakest among us who are being harmed, we
cannot selectively show an interest in fraud. If we do, we put
some people, the very powerful and the very rich, beyond the
reach of the law. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Thank you all for your opening statements.
We will now begin the questioning portion of the hearing.
And the Chair recognizes Mr. Gill from Texas for the first
question.
Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding
this hearing so expeditiously.
We all know this is an important issue not just in terms of
welfare fraud but also immigration more broadly. So, we
appreciate it. And thank you for the witnesses for taking the
time to come here.
I want to start with you, Mr. Ballou. Again, thank you for
being here. Let me ask you, does large-scale Somali immigration
make Minnesota stronger or weaker?
Mr. Ballou. Certainly stronger.
Mr. Gill. Certainly stronger. Do you know what percentage
of Somali-headed households in Minnesota are on food stamps?
Mr. Ballou. No.
Mr. Gill. 54 percent. Do you know what that number is for
native Minnesota-headed households?
Mr. Ballou. Well, to be clear, a majority of the----
Mr. Gill. It is seven--it is seven percent. There is a big
difference between 54 percent and seven percent; is there not?
Mr. Ballou. Excuse me, sir. Could I--could I answer the
question?
Mr. Gill. Let me move on. We have got a lot of questions
here. What percentage of Somali-headed households in Minnesota
are on Medicaid?
Mr. Ballou. I do not know.
Mr. Gill. It is 73 percent. Do you know what that number is
for Minnesota-native households?
Mr. Ballou. Again, you are using the phrase ``Minnesota-
native households'' but the majority----
Mr. Gill. The number--the number is 18 percent. That is
quite an astounding difference, I think we----
Mr. Ballou. Can I answer the question, please?
Mr. Gill. Let me ask you one more, and then we can go on to
that. What percentage of Somali-headed households are on
welfare in general?
Mr. Ballou. I do not know.
Mr. Gill. It is 81 percent. What about--let me just ask
you, after ten years of being in the United States, what
percentage of Somali immigrant households continue to be on
welfare?
Mr. Ballou. I do not know.
Mr. Gill. The number is 78 percent. So, even after ten
years, 78 percent of Somali immigrant households continue to be
on welfare. Do you know what that number is for native
Minnesota-headed households?
Mr. Ballou. Again, you are using----
Mr. Gill. Non-Somali immigrant headed households.
Mr. Ballou. If I could just to answer the question.
Mr. Gill. Go for it.
Mr. Ballou. You are using the phrase ``native''
Minnesotans. The majority of Somali Minnesotans are as
Minnesotan as any of us. They were born in the United States.
It is only 8,000 of the 108,000 Somali----
Mr. Gill. Nevertheless, the welfare usage is astoundingly
different. Let me ask you again, does that make Minnesota
stronger or weaker?
Mr. Ballou. Again, I would like the opportunity to answer
the question here.
Mr. Gill. Go for it.
Mr. Ballou. So, again, the majority of Somalian Minnesotans
are born in the United States. As I understand it----
Mr. Gill. Okay. Well, what--what percentage of----
Mr. Ballou. Again, can I----
Mr. Gill [continuing]. Of working age Somalians, who have
been in the United States for ten years or more, ten years or
more, how many of them speak English very well?
Mr. Ballou. I do not know.
Mr. Gill. About half. The answer is about half. That seems
pretty low, doesn't it?
Mr. Ballou. Again, I keep trying----
Mr. Gill. That does not sound like something that makes our
country stronger to me. And I think most Americans would agree
with me on that. I need to move on.
Ms. Robbins, when would you say we, concretely, knew that
widespread welfare fraud was occurring in Minnesota?
Ms. Robbins. There have been reports since 2009 from the
Office of Legislative Auditor. I would say the credible reports
on childcare fraud started surfacing 2011 to 2013.
Mr. Gill. So, for over a decade.
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Gill. When do you think Governor Walz knew about this
fraud?
Ms. Robbins. From the very beginning. He was running for
Governor in 2018 when there were prosecutions going on, when
there was an OLA report, active cases in the news all the time.
Mr. Gill. And what was the Walz Administration's response?
Ms. Robbins. They actually did nothing when they got into
office. And Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan had been on the
Committee in the legislature that had hearings on childcare
fraud. And, when they got into office, they did put $5 million
into--a little more money, but nothing changed.
Mr. Gill. But nothing--and let me ask you, Mr. Hudson--
thank you for being here. Did those who commit this fraud, do
they typically vote for Republicans or Democrats, in your
opinion?
Mr. Hudson. In my opinion--thank you for qualifying like
that--I would say they most definitely overwhelmingly vote for
Democrats.
Mr. Gill. Do they typically donate to Republicans or
Democrats?
Mr. Hudson. Not to my knowledge. They----
Mr. Gill. In your opinion?
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. Do not donate to Republicans; they
donate to Democrats, in my opinion, yes.
Mr. Gill. Yes. So, would you say the Somali population is
an important demographic for Democrats to win over politically?
Mr. Hudson. Unquestionably.
Mr. Gill. Got it. And do you think it would have hurt
Democrats' political standing with the Somali population to
investigate this fraud?
Mr. Hudson. Very clearly.
Mr. Gill. Got it. So, in other words, you are saying that
there was a political incentive to cover up widespread Somali
fraud. Is that right?
Mr. Hudson. 100 percent.
Mr. Gill. Let me ask all three of you, did the Walz
Administration and Democrats intentionally, in your opinion,
overlook this fraud, while it was happening, for political
gain? I will start with you, Ms. Robbins.
Ms. Robbins. Absolutely. We have credible whistleblower
reports that the Department of Human Services Administration up
to the Office of Inspector General (OIG) and the Commissioner
met with a group called the Minnesota Minority Child Care
Association multiple times and that they were trying to weaken
protections. We wanted----
Mr. Gill. Right.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. We had several changes we wanted
to do, and they opposed all of them.
Mr. Gill. And Mr. Hudson and Ms. Rarick, and then my time
is up.
Mr. Hudson. I would agree.
Ms. Rarick. Absolutely. The whistleblowers confirm it.
Mr. Gill. Got it. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ranking Member
Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you.
I just want to clarify one thing. I just want to be very
clear that a vast majority of those Somali Minnesotans are
United States citizens. And Somali Americans have as much right
to access those services or any Somalis as United States
Members of Congress. They have the same right to access
services, and we are talking about U.S. citizens.
Let me also just clarify, Mr. Hudson, you said in your
opening remarks that I had said that no fraud exists, and I
think--you can feel free to run the tape. That is not exactly
not what I said. What I have been talking about, which is
important for us to remember, is that wherever fraud exists, we
should take it on. And we should hold folks accountable. And,
when people commit fraud and people get hurt, there is going to
be repercussions as there should be. We can all agree to that.
We want to hold fraudsters accountable and want to protect
the victims and innocent people so those that can access
services and continue to access services across this country.
That is how it should work.
But we also know that is not how it should work according
to President Trump. Now, let us actually talk about real fraud
and some fraudsters. Now, we all know that, recently, here in
Florida, President Trump granted a get-out-of-jail-free pardon
to Philip Esformes. Now, Mr. Esformes is a nursing home mogul
convicted of schemes to defraud Medicare and Medicaid of $1.3
billion. Where is that hearing? This guy just did not steal
from taxpayers. He took advantage of thousands of people,
admitting them to nursing homes and living facilities that
could not help them.
His network of doctors gave out dangerous and harmful
treatments and prescribing opioids to drug addicts just to make
more money. In 2019, when Esformes was sentenced, Trump's own
DOJ issued a press release that quoted ``The man behind one of
the biggest healthcare frauds in history will be spending 20
years in prison''--20 years in prison the DOJ said. Just 14
months later, Donald Trump let him walk free with a pardon.
In October of this year, on his 56th birthday, Esformes was
arrested on domestic violence charges.
Let us look at another case, another Trump case. Joseph
Schwartz, he was sentenced for taking advantage of nursing home
residents and workers and defrauding the government of $38
million. Where is that hearing? Schwartz paid lobbyists almost
a million to secure a pardon from the President, and it worked.
In November of this last year, a full and unconditional pardon
was granted by President Trump for this enormous amount of
fraud.
Now, let us look at Paul Walczak, a tax cheat whose crimes
cost taxpayers almost $1.1 billion, dwarfing what we are
talking about today, as he made lavish purchases like a $1
million luxury yacht. Now, Mr. Walczak was supposed to spend 18
months in prison, a fraudster who we want to go after. He
should have been held accountable for his crimes. And he was
supposed to pay $4.4 million back to the taxpayers.
While this pardon application was pending, his mom was
invited to a $1 million per person candlelight dinner at Mar-a-
Lago with President Trump. She attended, and less than three
weeks later, her son received a full and unconditional pardon.
Now, I am assuming that our witnesses here today would
think this is horrific fraud and would disagree with these
pardons. I would like to just--do you agree with this pardon? I
would like to begin with our witnesses.
Ms. Robbins. Sir, I have not looked at the facts of the
case or the law. So, I cannot make a statement on that.
Mr. Garcia. You cannot make a statement on these pardons.
You have not read anything about them in the news, apparently.
Ms. Robbins. I have not.
Mr. Garcia. These are pardons to criminals and fraudsters
that our witnesses clearly have no interest in.
Now, in Trump's America, rich people can rip innocent
people off whenever they want and get a pardon. And the answer
to fraud here is to cutoff benefits to innocent people. Most of
these folks are innocent people and kids who just need their
services.
Donald Trump's decision to freeze $10 billion in social
services funding to five states does not hold criminals
accountable. It hurts the very people who are harmed by fraud
in the first place.
Mr. Ballou, just finally, you are from Minnesota yourself.
How are Minnesotans on the ground being hurt by Trump's
political retribution crusade?
Mr. Ballou. Well, the practical effect is that the pause on
payments for childcare services and Medicaid services are going
to result in hundreds of thousands of the neediest Minnesotans
being denied, in some cases, literally lifesaving payments.
Mr. Garcia. And, also, as we have been discussing here,
there is a large, of course, immigrant community, a community
that makes Minnesota stronger. Can you tell us how innocent
people in the Somali community are being directly harmed?
Mr. Ballou. Well, you hear about the threats that are
happening against the Somali community. You are hearing about
the broad demonization that is happening against them in the
media generally. I think, you know, just, I know we are running
out of time here. But, you know, if you look at the statistics,
I believe it is 82 Somali Americans have been indicted so far
out of 108,000 Somali Minnesotans in the state overall. That is
something like a 0.07 percent criminal rate. You know, when you
compare that to one-third of all Americans have a criminal
record, and I think it is 40 percent, or approximately, of
white men under the age of 23 have been arrested, I do not
think the statistics really compare.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir. And I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, the House Majority Whip
Emmer, Representatives Finstad, Fischbach, and Stauber of
Minnesota are waived on to the Committee for purpose of
questioning the witnesses at today's hearing.
Without objection, so ordered.
Mrs. Luna. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes----
Mrs. Luna. I seek recognition to make two motions for
subpoenas.
Chairman Comer. I was going to recognize the Whip, but if
you have a motion, or--state your?
Mrs. Luna. I would like to make a motion to subpoena
Neville Singham, a U.S. billionaire with reported ties to the
Chinese Communist Party (CCP), that has been funding extremist
organizations, fueling division and civil unrest in this
country, especially regarding the ICE riots last summer. As
well as, I would like to make a motion to subpoena the Anti-
Defamation League (ADL) CEO Jonathan Greenblatt for stifling
free speech by listing the phrase ``America First'' as hate
speech and Turning Point USA as a hate group.
Chairman Comer. The motion has been made. The Committee
will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of the
Committee hearing. The Committee will now proceed with today's
hearing.
Mr. Lynch. Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Will we get a
written copy of that? Because that was a lot to go through.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Yes. We will make--we will work with
Representative Luna and get a copy.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. All right. The Chair now recognizes the
Majority Whip from Minnesota, Mr. Emmer.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you, Chairman Comer, for holding this
important hearing.
As I said on Monday, good riddance to Governor Walz. But he
cannot escape accountability for the estimated $9 billion in
fraud. How did this happen, and where the hell has the Twin
Cities media been? The Star Tribune is complicit. They have had
this story for years, if you just heard, and they refused to
report anything on it. In fact, they continue to try and cover
up. Our Minnesota Republican colleagues have demanded answers
and accountability for years but have seen nothing from Walz,
his Administration, our Democrat colleagues like Tina Smith,
Amy Klobuchar, Ilhan Omar, and Angie Craig, or the worthless
Star Tribune. Thank God for President Donald J. Trump for
finally bringing attention to this issue.
Representative Rarick, I am going to begin with you. You
have been working on this issue for years. You have spoken to
the whistleblowers personally. Is that correct?
Ms. Rarick. That is correct.
Mr. Emmer. You have an understanding that 1,000
whistleblowers running an account on X have come forward to
expose fraud in Minnesota state agencies, and they have been
entirely ignored by Tim Walz and have even been retaliated
against. Is that accurate?
Ms. Rarick. That is correct. Even this morning, I got
another message.
Mr. Emmer. Well, in your experience, are their claims
credible or are they politically motivated against Walz?
Ms. Rarick. They are completely credible, not politically
motivated.
Mr. Emmer. In fact, many of these are Walz Administration
employees, correct?
Ms. Rarick. They are actually Democrats as well.
Mr. Emmer. Can you quickly give us one example of the
retaliation these folks have been facing?
Ms. Rarick. Yes, I can. In my opening statement, I
mentioned that the most severe ones was that they would be
fired with cause so they could not have unemployment insurance,
that they would be blacklisted from all state agencies, and I
would bet that it is also Hennepin County and Ramsey County. As
you know, those are Democrat run. And much, much more.
Mr. Emmer. Based on what you have learned, Representative,
over the last several years, do you have any doubt that
Governor Tim Walz knew about this fraud as it was occurring?
Ms. Rarick. He absolutely knew that it was occurring.
Mr. Emmer. Thank you. The Housing Stability Services
Program was estimated to cost about $2.6 million per year. But
before it was shut down last October, it was on track to run
about $122 million in 2025. In fact, I think they sucked $161
million out of it from the point it started in 2020 until it
was finally shut down. Isn't that correct?
Ms. Rarick. That is correct. And Joe Thompson believes that
90 percent of that was fraud.
Mr. Emmer. Yes. The Quality ``Leering'' Center, as
uncovered by Nick Shirley, received almost $10 million in
funding. Is that accurate?
Ms. Rarick. I believe it is.
Mr. Emmer. There are more than 80 autism centers in
Minnesota under investigation. Is that true?
Ms. Rarick. I believe it is, yes.
Mr. Emmer. It is clear that someone is criminally
complicit. You cannot just let this amount of money get out of
your administration over a period of seven years without
knowing. There was a hearing in the state regarding the
fraudulent Housing Stabilization Program, but before that
hearing, Governor Walz fired the official who was slated to
testify so that they could not testify and expose what was
happening under Governor Walz's watch. Has Governor Walz or
Attorney General Ellison fired anyone else, to your knowledge,
Representative?
Ms. Rarick. Not to my knowledge. And that was Eric
Grumdahl. And his Administration believes that he was--he was
not fired. But I say he was fired because it was too
convenient.
Mr. Emmer. Right. Representative Hudson, is it true that 90
percent of the individuals charged, regardless of what your
colleague on the panel just said with his facts and figures, 90
percent of the individuals charged or indicted with the $250
million Feeding Our Future COVID fraud are of Somali descent?
Mr. Hudson. I believe that to be correct.
Mr. Emmer. Are you aware that, in a 2021 video, Mr. Ellison
promised that he would obstruct his own agencies in their
investigation of Somali fraud?
Mr. Hudson. I am very much aware of that.
Mr. Emmer. It is no wonder that criminals in the Somali
community felt they were free to steal taxpayer dollars. I am
going to ask you the same question I asked Marion. Do you have
any doubt that Tim Walz knew about this fraud as it was
occurring?
Mr. Hudson. None whatsoever.
Mr. Emmer. Walz and Ellison were protecting fraudsters
instead of investigating them, and it was purposeful. And it is
no coincidence that this is occurring largely in the Somali
community. Walz made a sanctuary state--Minnesota a sanctuary
state. He gave free healthcare, free college, and free licenses
to illegals. And Walz looked the other way when Somali
immigrants were stealing. Representative Robbins, do you have
any doubt that Tim Walz knew about this fraud as it was
occurring?
Ms. Robbins. None whatsoever.
Mr. Emmer. So, all three of you have no doubt in your minds
that Tim Walz knew about the $9 billion of fraud during his
tenure as Governor and did nothing about it.
It looks like my time is about to expire. And I do want to
say to all of you, on behalf of Minnesota, thank you for being
here. And justice will be served.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Mr. Whip.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Norton from Washington, D.C.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Federal assistance programs are vital for keeping working
families afloat and children healthy. Nearly 25 percent of
adults and nearly 50 percent of children rely on Federal
assistance, including childcare funding, Medicaid, and
Children's Health Insurance Program and the Supplemental
Nutrition Assistance Program. Fraudsters targeting government
programs have a uniquely harmful impact on Americans. They
deprive taxpayers of efficient use of their funds, deprive
intended recipients and sometimes the most vulnerable groups in
our society of the services and assistance they are eligible
for. And they reduce the public trust in government.
But answers to fraud is not to freeze critical safety net
programs and cause more suffering for Americans who are already
struggling to afford everyday expenses. I have worked with my
colleagues on the Government Operations Subcommittee on ways
that Federal agencies can identify and prevent fraud before
payments are made. My Oversight Committee Democrat colleagues
and I are also proud cosponsors of congressional Min's Taxpayer
Funds Oversight Accountability Act. This legislation would
strengthen the ability of Federal agencies to reliably track
Federal funds enabling more efficient analysis to identify and
stop fraudsters. We can continue to reduce fraud and protect
funding from bad actors by empowering oversight bodies like
Inspectors General and Government Accountability Office, which
are often best equipped to investigate red flags and sound the
alarm when there are problems to address. Applying additional
safeguards requires a balanced approach that does not pull the
rug out from under people, including children, who rely on help
these programs provide.
Congress must not allow partisan actors to seize on the
misdeeds of a few in order to gut the vital programs that
provide access to Federal healthcare and special education
services, keep American children fed, and keep American parents
to work with the knowledge that their children are safe. And I
yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Jordan from Ohio.
Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hudson, who is Salim Said and Aimee Bock?
Mr. Hudson. I recognize those names as defendants in the
Feeding Our Future trial.
Mr. Jordan. They ran Feeding Our Future. Is that right?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. And they have been indicted?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. They have been convicted?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. And they are in jail waiting sentences. Is that
right?
Mr. Hudson. As I understand it.
Mr. Jordan. Okay. I want to go back, because earlier with
Mr. Gill you said that they overlook the fraud. I think it is
worse than that. I think they helped it along. I am going to go
to this meeting that took place--actually, I want to go to
March 30, 2021. Is it true back in March 2021, the Minnesota
Department of Education suspended payments to Feeding Our
Future? To that program? Is that right?
Mr. Hudson. I believe that is correct.
Mr. Jordan. And then, a month later, they resumed payments.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. What caused them to change their mind?
Mr. Hudson. In my opinion, what caused them to change their
mind was pushback from their constituency within the Somali
community who accused the state agencies of being racist.
Mr. Jordan. But what caused them to stop it in the first
place? Was it whistleblowers coming forward? Was it, like,
something is not right here? What happened?
Mr. Hudson. Apologize for the misunderstanding. The reason
they stopped the funds in the first place is because they had
credible allegations that there was fraud taking place.
Mr. Jordan. From whistleblowers and others?
Mr. Hudson. Correct.
Mr. Jordan. They were just doing their job, looking at--
this does not make sense. We got all these programs, no one is
getting fed, yet money is going out the door like crazy. So,
they suspended it. And then they started it back up, right? Was
there any threat of a lawsuit from the Somali community and
folks affiliated with Feeding Our Future?
Mr. Hudson. Mr. Jordan, there was more than a threat. They
actually did.
Mr. Jordan. They did? And what was the alleged claim in
that lawsuit?
Mr. Hudson. That they were victims of racial
discrimination.
Mr. Jordan. Oh. They played the race card, huh? All this
fraud going on, money going out, and they played the race card.
Now, when I talked about not just overlooking it, there was
a meeting that took place between the Attorney General and
affiliates of Feeding Our Future. Is that right?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. And what happened at that meeting? Do we know?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, we do, because we have it on tape. There
was an audio recording made at that meeting that was entered
into evidence in the Feeding Our Future trial, and it was later
revealed, through work from Center of the American Experiment,
the full recording. And my observations of what took place in
that meeting was that Attorney General Keith Ellison was
focused on one thing and one thing only, and that was keeping
these folks in business. There were no questions that he asked
of these folks about how the kids are doing, the operation, how
they are getting fed, who is being helped. Instead, the focus
was entirely on ensuring that the money continues to flow. And
I will add that he went so far as to say that he was going to
fight these people, in reference to the state agencies. The
state agencies are his client.
Mr. Jordan. Yes. And, when you said money is going to flow,
did money flow to Mr. Ellison's campaign a couple weeks later
from some of the folks who were in that meeting?
Mr. Hudson. Sure did.
Mr. Jordan. Do we know how much that was?
Mr. Hudson. I do not have that number.
Mr. Jordan. So, it was not just--was not just overlooking
the fraud. They were actively trying to make sure this program
continued, and then they benefited from that politically with
contribution to their campaign, all in this same year, all in
2021, when this was all coming to a head. Is that accurate?
Mr. Hudson. That is my understanding.
Mr. Jordan. And this fraud is much bigger than this
because, as I look, it is just about--it is, like, six
different Federal agencies. Department of Homeland Security,
Health and Human Services, Small Business Association, Housing
Urban Development, Department of Labor, Department of
Agriculture, in this program and a bunch of others, they were
shaking down the entire Federal Government, it looked like. Six
different Federal agencies over, I think you pointed out, over
the last 15 years?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. And not only are the Administration, the
Democrat Administration, overlooking it, they are helping it
along. They are assisting it. They are going after
whistleblowers, as your colleague pointed out, and they are
benefiting from all this politically with contributions to
their campaign, not to mention the voting issue that you
referenced earlier as well. Is that all accurate?
Mr. Hudson. I believe so.
Mr. Jordan. Oh. Now there are more than six agencies
involved. There are six Federal agencies that got shaken down,
but there is two other agencies involved now, the FBI and the
DOJ. Right? How many people have been indicted now?
Mr. Hudson. I do not have that number in front of me, but
it is significant.
Mr. Jordan. And I do not know how long y'all been in the
legislature. We appreciate your work, appreciate what you do.
But have you ever seen anything like this in your time in the--
I have never seen anything like this in--Ms. Robbins, you are
the Chair.
Ms. Robbins. No, sir. We have never seen anything on this
scale. It is unbelievable. As Joe Thompson said, it is
breathtaking and cannot be overstated.
Mr. Jordan. Yes. Well, God bless you all. Ms. Rarick, I
will give you the last word.
Ms. Rarick. Thank you. So, I have been there since 2013,
and I have been yelled at by Democrats over and over again
throughout our time there to say that ``there is no fraud; this
is just made up.''
Mr. Jordan. Yes. This is the template. You see this all the
time. The left will tell a lie--``We are feeding kids,'' when
they are not--when they are just shaking down the taxpayer. The
left will tell a lie. The media will report the lie or not
report when the truth comes out. And then, when you tell the
truth, they call you a racist. It is as old as time. We see it
all the time. This is so long--God bless you all for coming
forward and getting the facts to the people in Minnesota and,
more importantly, to the people of this great county. I yield
back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to be clear that fraud is unacceptable at any level.
However, I did have an opportunity to spend the day with a
bunch of my kids in my district at my local Head Start center
in Quincy, the Wahlberg Center, and they actually are able to
feed those kids breakfast, lunch, and a snack for $6 a day.
And I just want to say, from this Committee, this
investigative Committee, if we are really looking for fraud, if
we are truly looking for fraud, in addition to all the cases
that Mr. Ballou listed, we do not need to go far. I can even
suggest the address: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. If we are looking
for fraud in this country, that is a great place to start. That
is a gold mine for looking for fraud.
And I will just give one example. You know, you do not have
to go back in time very far to see a great example of the fraud
that has been put upon this country. Last month, President
Trump put his name on the John F. Kennedy Center for the
Performing Arts.
For those of you who are too young to remember, JFK was a
war hero, from my state. He was an Irish Catholic, first
Catholic elected President. Fought a lot of bigotry during his
time trying to become President. He actually stood up to the
Russians.
But he was a war hero, a decorated war hero. He is the only
United States President to ever have received the Purple Heart.
He also received the Medal of Valor from the Navy and the
Marine Corps because during World War II he was commanding a PT
boat, PT 109; his vessel was struck by a destroyer in the South
Pacific, and he actually risked his life to save his crew
members.
And after he was assassinated, LBJ, Lyndon Baines Johnson,
his successor, and the U.S. Congress at that time recognized
his service and sacrifice to this country by naming the
performing arts center after him.
He had raised most of the money to build that center, he
and Jacqueline Kennedy.
And it is shameful, it is--it is a case of stolen valor for
this President to put his name above the name of John F.
Kennedy. That is a fraud being perpetrated on this country
right now. And if we are really interested in rooting out
fraud, how about starting right there? I have legislation that
will take Trump's name off that building and restore it.
You know, Congress acknowledged Kennedy's service and
sacrifice to our country. He sacrificed everything--
everything--for this country. And yet we have allowed this to
happen and we have allowed that fraud, that valor to be stolen
from John F. Kennedy. It is wrong. It is wrong.
And while I know Trump has his supporters and his minions
and there is no depth to the shame that they will stoop to--but
we, as Americans, should defend--defend--the history, defend
the goodness that has been done by previous leaders.
It is ironic that Jacqueline Kennedy actually established
the White House Historical Society, and she did so in a manner
that she said, we should honor every President within the White
House regardless of party but because of the service and the
sacrifice that they have made on behalf of our country.
That is a much different sentiment that is held at the
White House today, when you see the shameful plaques that have
been put up by this President denigrating previous Presidents
and their service to this country.
So, I hope my colleagues will join me in that legislation
to restore the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts
and eliminate this fraud, glaring fraud, that is being
perpetrated on the American people.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Byron Donalds from
the great State of Florida.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman.
Before I begin, I have a letter to submit for the record,
titled ``Collective Request for congressional Oversight.
Systematic Retaliation in Governance: Failure at the Minnesota
Department of Human Services.''
Chairman, this letter was written by the whistleblowers and
has been provided to the Committee. I want to submit that for
the record.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Donalds. Ms. Rarick, first of all, thank you for your
service to the State of Minnesota.
I want to refer back to your commentary about a meeting
where the Lieutenant Governor of the State of Minnesota,
Lieutenant Governor Flanagan, came and admonished these
whistleblowers.
Can you go into more detail about what was said in this
meeting?
Ms. Rarick. Thank you, Mr. Congressman.
So, I do not have any more detail other than what I read
into the record, unfortunately. It was obviously a public
meeting, and there were hundreds of DHS employees--so
Department of Human Services employees--there. It was a story
that has been reported multiple times on the X page, but I do
not have any more details than that, other than the fact that
that was not the only time that she retaliated.
Mr. Donalds. Do you think that the Lieutenant Governor was
operating outside of the purview of Governor Walz?
Ms. Rarick. So, it is interesting, the timing, and it was
before he ran as the Vice President. And so, she was completely
almost tied at the hip with Governor Walz at that time in
history.
Mr. Donalds. I think it is important for people to
understand that in virtually every state in the country the
Lieutenant Governor is essentially chosen by the Governor. And
so, Lieutenant Governors typically do not operate outside of
the purview of the Governor. It is kind of their job to, you
know, play QB2, if you will, to the Governor.
So, would it be--would it be clear to state that the
Lieutenant Governor's comments trying to railroad
whistleblowers, trying to demean whistleblowers and discourage
whistleblowers was at the directive of Governor Walz?
Ms. Rarick. You can definitely assume that, because, like I
said, at that moment in time, up until the point where the
Governor ran for VP, she was seen at literally every press
conference, she was in all the meetings, they were tied at the
hip, they were always together. So, if she was saying it, he
had approved it; I am certain of it.
Mr. Donalds. Well, I guess you could say she is kind of a
knucklehead too.
Moving on, the list of programs in the fraud in Minnesota
are rampant. You have the Child Care Assistance Program. You
have the Feeding Our Future. You have a housing--the Housing
Stabilization Services. You have the Early Intensive
Development and Behavioral Intervention. You have Integrated
Community Supports.
Ms. Robbins, you are the Chair of the investigative
committee. The depth of fraud that you have seen, were there
controls in place in the State of Minnesota that could have
prevented this fraud? And were these controls ignored by the
Walz Administration and by the Department of Human Services?
Ms. Robbins. Absolutely.
So, we have many whistleblower reports talking about how
DHS undermined ability to strengthen internal controls.
So, for example, there was an effort for the Child Care
Assistance Program--they have a ``clear and convincing
evidence'' standard to disqualify someone from being a
provider, where all the other programs are a lower standard,
``preponderance of the evidence.'' There was an effort to make
this a lower standard, so it was easier to disqualify people,
to ``preponderance.'' And the Minnesota Minority Childcare
Association, which was run by a group of Somali providers,
opposed it, and DHS went along with their recommendation.
And in a similar vein, we were trying to reduce the number
of childcare employees with children that could work in these
childcare centers, because that was one of the vectors of
fraud----
Mr. Donalds. Right.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. And they opposed that.
Mr. Donalds. So, you have the Somali community who on
purpose was petitioning the State of Minnesota to lower the
standards--lower the standards to be able to make sure that
fraud could not be caught. Is that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Well, they wanted to keep the standard ``clear
and convincing,'' which makes it harder to disqualify people.
So----
Mr. Donalds. So, it makes it harder for them to be
disqualified from wasting taxpayer funds. Is that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Absolutely.
Mr. Donalds. Okay.
Ms. Robbins, I want to stay with you. I want to talk about
use of funds. You have talked about, some of these funds were
used to buy property in Kenya?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Donalds. Property in Turkey? Do I have that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Mr. Donalds. Remittances back to Somalia?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Mr. Donalds. I think it is important for the Committee to
understand that these remittances, in part, are used in what is
called the ``hawala''--I want to make sure I have the
terminology right--the ``hawala network.''
Ms. Robbins, can you speak to what the hawala network is?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. So, it is an informal network where
someone brings--goes to a hawala place in Minneapolis, which is
like a money exchange or a money sending site, and they say,
``I want to send X amount of dollars,'' and then there is a
receiving site in Somalia, and they put the cash--take the cash
out. So, money does not cross the border. It is an order for
money here that gets transmitted to Somalia.
Mr. Donalds. For the time, because I am out of time, I want
to expound.
In Somalia and other parts in the Middle East, in the
Middle East region writ large, a hawala network is a bunch of
money exchangers, hand to hand, not bank account to bank
account.
Ms. Robbins. Exactly.
Mr. Donalds. And what is clear in Somalia and other parts
is that Al Shabaab, the largest al-Qaida affiliate in Somalia,
they have their hands all through this network. So, taxpayer
money, United States dollars that are being remitted into
Somalia, in part have been utilized or have fell into the hands
of Al Shabaab.
Do you think that is a correct assessment?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. We have plenty of evidence of that, from
money directly going to Al Shabaab, but then also indirectly
because they take a cut of whatever gets sent to Somalia.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you so much.
Chairman, I know I am over. Thank you for your--for the
additional time. I yield back.
Ms. Pressley. Mr. Chair, I seek recognition for a unanimous
consent request.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Pressley.
Ms. Pressley. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
record a December 2025 article from the Minnesota Star Tribune,
titled ``Contrary to Trump's Claims, Somalis Add $8 Billion to
Minnesota's Economy.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair recognizes Ro Khanna from California.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, fraud, waste, and abuse is not a partisan
issue. FDR, in 1932, with the New Deal, railed against
inefficiencies and fraud and waste in state and local
government. I want to be clear, many in the Democratic Party
stand against the misappropriation or misuse of taxpayer
dollars.
The reality is, as a progressive Democrat, I believe the
ultra-wealthy should pay more, but I want that money going for
the healthcare, the childcare, and the education of the
American people. It offends me if there is waste or fraud in
any of our states.
That is why I called for people in my State of California
to share stories of inefficiencies, fraud, or wasteful
spending. I partnered with the ``All-In'' podcast to advertise
that we need to be responsible stewards of our tax dollars.
And I believe we should be doing this for all 50 states. I
challenge my colleagues on the Republican side: Let us have an
audit of all 50 states to make sure that government money is
being spent wisely.
We do not need to make these partisan hearings. Every
American has a stake in making sure that they have a receipt
for where their tax dollars are going. Every American has a
stake, if we are going to ask them to pay tax, to make sure
that that money is not being wasted.
And I would like to see this Committee work together to
stand up for basic fairness of the American taxpayers. I
certainly am going to do that in the State of California, and
we should be doing that in all 50 states.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Representative Khanna. And I
believe you are sincere, and we want to work with you on fraud
in any state. If it is a Republican state, Democratic state, we
do not care. The mission of this Committee is to root out
waste, fraud, abuse, and mismanagement, and we would gladly
work with you.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs from
Arizona.
Mr. Biggs. I have a UC request.
Chairman Comer. Proceed.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
The first one is, ``Arizona Has Recovered Just five percent
of Taxpayer Dollars Lost in a $2.5 Billion Medicaid Fraud
Scheme.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Biggs. And I will save the rest for the future. No, I
have got a bunch of more, but not right now, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Comer. Okay. All right.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Thank you.
I will--the Chair recognizes myself for 5 minutes of
questioning.
Yesterday, Minnesota's Office of the Legislative Auditor
published an audit of the state's Department of Human Services'
Behavioral Health Administration grants. I would like to enter
that report and its cover letter into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
The cover letter of this report states, quote, ``However,
during the course of our audit, we identified a number of
documents that the Behavioral Health Administration either
backdated or created after our audit happened,'' end quote.
It sounds like Governor Tim Walz's Department of Human
Services may have been fabricating evidence by creating
documentation after the fact to mislead voters--to mislead
auditors.
This new report noted that one grantee who received nearly
$680,000 from this agency for one month's work but could not
provide any documentation or proof that any work was actually
completed.
What is more--and this is the kicker--the report notes that
the grant manager who approved this money left the agency
within days of approving the grant to take a job with the very
same grantee that they approved money for.
So, very quickly, Representative Robbins, have you ever
seen anything like this in your time as a member of the
Minnesota Fraud Prevention and State Agency Oversight Policy
Committee?
Ms. Robbins. We have heard whistleblower reports of
backdating and falsification before. And we also have a record
of earlier in the CCAP, the childcare fraud, where they would
allow the providers to submit records far after the
investigation and accept them as true.
So, clearly, this has been a pattern at the agency, and it
is unacceptable.
Chairman Comer. Unbelievable.
And we want to work with you; we want to work with these
whistleblowers. We are serious about this. The Trump
Administration is on the ground. We want to catch these people,
and we want to put them behind bars. And we want to hold any
politician that participated in these schemes accountable.
Representative Hudson, who is to blame for this
dysfunction?
Mr. Hudson. Well, the blame can go around quite a bit, but,
as Tim Walz himself said, the buck stops with him.
Chairman Comer. Representative Robbins, do you have any
examples of how the Walz Administration blocked investigators
from moving forward with high-priority fraud investigations?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, we do, Mr. Chairman. I have met with
whistleblowers and gotten documents from them about how, after
the original CCAP whistleblower report came out in March and
April of 2019, subsequent to that, there was an Office of
Inspector General within DHS that had investigative authority
to do surveillance, warrants, and seize electronics, and they
were shut down. They were told they could no longer do criminal
investigations. They were told they could no longer meet with
the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension agents that were assigned
to them without supervisor's approval.
And, instead, when they found--one of the other members
talked about how they changed the language. They went from
calling it ``fraud'' to calling it ``overbilling.'' And they
created an overbilling committee to--all the investigative
agents now could not do criminal investigations, and they had
to flag issues of overbilling, and then a committee would
decide if any of that overbilling would be recouped.
Chairman Comer. A committee by--appointed by Walz?
Ms. Robbins. No, appointed within DHS.
Chairman Comer. Oh, appointed by their own bureaucracy?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. So, they shut down criminal
investigations. They created a committee to call it overbilling
and decide if overbilling investigations would even try to
recoup the money.
Chairman Comer. So, this is evidence that Tim Walz
interfered with investigators who knew there was fraud. The
rumors of fraud have been taking place--I have been hearing
them for a decade. And yet, he interfered to try to obstruct
their investigation of fraud.
Ms. Robbins. Yes. His agency shut down criminal
investigations.
Chairman Comer. Representative Hudson, we did not get $9
billion stolen overnight. How did the fraud in Minnesota become
so widespread?
Mr. Hudson. Well, listen, let me give the maximum benefit
of the doubt that these programs were designed for a beneficial
legislative intent.
Chairman Comer. Of course.
Mr. Hudson. The way that it happened was, when people
recognized that the system was not working and they raised
those concerns, those concerns were ignored. And a culture
suppressing raising those concerns was fostered by the Walz
Administration.
Chairman Comer. So, obviously, there was a lack of
oversight by the Walz Administration.
Why would Governor Walz let $9 billion in fraud occur, Mr.
Hudson?
Mr. Hudson. In my opinion, because it was politically
beneficial to Democrats. Again, the Somali community is a huge
constituency group, and we have had some tight races in
Minnesota, and it makes a difference for them.
Chairman Comer. Because it is a huge part of the Democrat
voting base in Minnesota. Is that correct?
Mr. Hudson. Correct.
Chairman Comer. Representative Rarick, Governor Walz's
announcement not to seek a third term seems to be an admission
of guilt, I think, to most Americans and an attempt by the
Democrat establishment to cover up his role in the rampant
fraud. He claims this is so he can focus on ``defending the
people of Minnesota against criminals who prey on our
generosity.''
As someone who has been in the Minnesota legislature longer
than Tim Walz has been Governor, can Governor Walz actually be
trusted to defend Minnesotans, when he allowed fraud to fester
for his entire tenure as Governor?
Ms. Rarick. Mr. Chairman, if Governor Walz was serious
about stopping fraud, he would have done it in 2019 when he
took office. He has done nothing other than appoint
commissioners that suppressed fraud and retaliated against
their own employees.
Chairman Comer. And just think, this man was almost elected
Vice President of the United States. This was the pick for the
sitting Vice President of the United States to be the next Vice
President of the United States. This is unbelievable.
If people are not held accountable, if people do not go to
jail for this, this will continue, not just in Minnesota but
other states.
And we are going to do everything we can on this Committee
to work with you all and every whistleblower in Minnesota and
any other of the 49 states who wants to come forward to expose
waste, fraud, and abuse. We are going to work with you and
eliminate it and hold people accountable.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Mfume? Is that right?
Ms. Ansari. Mr. Chairman, I just have a UC request.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Go ahead.
Ms. Ansari. The first one is from the American Immigration
Council: ``Immigrants Contribute Billions to Federal and State
Taxes Each Year''; as well as, ``Immigrants Do Not Commit More
Crimes in the United States, Despite Fearmongering.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Mfume from Maryland.
Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to thank
you and the Ranking Member for bringing us together on this
today.
I have a request for unanimous consent to enter into the
record a letter from James Clark, the Inspector General of the
Minnesota Department of Human Services, directed to the Fraud
Prevention and State Agency Oversight Committee of the House of
Representatives in Minnesota, requesting information on the
alleged 700 tips that have been received.
I would like to enter that with unanimous consent, Mr.
Chair.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Mfume. Mr. Chair, I know we are up against the clock.
Many of us are trying to get to the special briefings on the
action that has taken place in Venezuela, and so we are leaving
one by one. I do want to try to get a couple things in before I
have to depart also.
I want to thank you again. As Ranking Member of this
Committee's Subcommittee on Government Operations, it has been
my focus to combat waste, fraud, and abuse within the Federal
Government for the last 3-1/2 years.
Regardless of what side you are on, what side of the aisle
or what you believe, as has been stated, everybody should be
against fraud. It requires our collective attention to address
the issue and to minimize the consequences that we are seeing
that are taking place--not minimize the consequences to the
perpetrators, but minimize the hurt to taxpayers in this
country.
As the Ranking Member of that Committee [sic], we have
committed ourselves to fight this full and necessary issue over
and over again. And I believe that, from most of the people I
have heard, we are all in concurrence that stealing from
taxpayers is the wrong thing, period.
Now, the distinguished gentleman from Texas, Mr. Sessions,
and I--who is the Chairman of that Subcommittee--have been
working together on a bipartisan basis to create a
congressional scorecard to assess the progress of key
government spending programs in reducing fraud and improper
payments, both through the Federal Government and through
states.
Additionally, through the American Rescue Plan Act,
Congress has provided funding for the Pandemic Response
Accountability Committee (PRAC) as well as the Pandemic
Analytic Center of Excellence to deter, detect, and prevent
fraud across multiple state agencies and multiple Federal
agencies. I have also co-led several bills here in the House
that address that type of fraud.
Congress should defend these programs that seek to find a
way to root out this problem, and we need to do that in a
bipartisan, nonpartisan way.
The Council of Inspectors General for Integrity and
Efficiency, in their report a year and a half ago to the
Congress and to the President, found that every dollar spent on
the Office of Inspectors General--as a result, $26 was saved
for every $1 that was spent.
Now, that is a return on investment that taxpayers deserve.
And, unfortunately, the Trump Administration illegally defunded
CIGIE last year. And I have joined with my colleagues, several
of whom on this Committee, in leading several letters to oppose
that unlawful set of firings of Inspector Generals.
I urge this Administration, again, and my colleagues to
restore the congressionally designated funding to CIGIE and the
Offices of Inspectors General so that we might be able to
continue the work necessary to combat waste, fraud, and abuse.
Before I yield, I want to thank Mr. Ro Khanna for his
comments that this issue should be nonpartisan, that when we
make it something other than that, we take away from our
ability to bring about change and we in some sort of way chip
away at the, sort of, belief that the public has that we are
really serious about doing something here.
So, it was concerning to me, also, to have heard some of
the xenophobia that began earlier in this hearing, Mr.
Chairman--differences, differences versus similarities. And
when we do that, we create the problems that we always are
trying to do away with.
Asking witnesses to give their opinion of Somalis as a
general group of Americans; asking witnesses their opinion,
``Do you think they vote for Democrats? Do you think they just
give money to Democrats?''; asking their opinion, ``What is
your opinion of Somalians? What is your''--we might as well
say, ``What is your opinion of Jews? What is your opinion of
Black people? What is your opinion of Latinos?'' That sort of
thing, although it may sound good and play to the issue,
creates a slippery slope--I want to caution people--a slippery
slope.
We heard earlier that, of over 100,000 Somalis in this
country, 87 were indicted in Minnesota. That comes out to .087
percent.
Those sorts of things create, I think, the disbelief that a
lot of people have that we are about doing the business that we
ought to do. And it gets back to the point that the gentleman
from California raised, that we have got to find a way to keep
this from being partisan and to keep it from being subjective.
I would yield back, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs before I go to Mr. Crane.
Mr. Biggs, you have a UC?
Mr. Biggs. Yes. Yes, sir.
The first one is ``Tim Walz Claims He Fired People Amid
Fraud Scandals--But Won't Name Names.''
Next one: ``Walz Appointees Failed to Stop Rampant
Minnesota Fraud.''
Next one: ``Exclusive: DHS Insider Claims Systemic Issues
in Addressing Fraud.''
Next one: ``Here is What the Trump Administration Is Doing
to Crush Minnesota's Fraud Epidemic.''
Next one: ``Minnesota Fraud Committee Chair Claims Walz
`Turned a Blind Eye' to Fraud Warnings for Years.''
And I will yield back.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Crane,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Grateful to have elected officials from Minnesota here
today who can provide more intimate information regarding this
mind-blowing fraud coming from the Somali community in
Minnesota. According to Assistant U.S. Attorney Joe Thompson,
there is an estimated $9 billion or more in fraud. Many,
obviously, believe that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I want to thank and acknowledge the independent reporters,
Nick Shirley and Dave Hoch, who broke this story wide open.
Today I am introducing a bill to award Nick Shirley with the
congressional Medal for his explosive work in exposing
astronomical fraud in Minnesota. And the reason I am doing this
is because the American people are sick and tired of this, and
they are sick and tired of mainstream media not covering any of
it.
The biggest question that most Americans, however, have is
this: Is this incompetence at the executive level with the
Governor and Attorney General? Are they involved and complicit?
I am going to start with you, Ms. Robbins.
Ms. Robbins. Thank you, sir.
My understanding is that they were certainly aware of the
fraud and they did nothing to stop it. And there were plenty of
opportunities. And their commissioners and their agencies also
undermined efforts to tighten internal controls.
Mr. Crane. And, according to Ms. Rarick--I believe you said
that they were actually going after whistleblowers to suppress
the expose of this fraud. Is that correct?
Ms. Rarick. That is what the whistleblowers have said
repeatedly.
Mr. Crane. Thank you.
One thing that is so alarming is the reporting that many of
these fraudulent companies are then donating the stolen money
back to the same Democrats that are protecting them and
advocate for these very programs.
Is that correct, Mr. Hudson?
Mr. Hudson. I would agree with that statement.
Mr. Crane. Well, we just had one of my Democrat colleagues
say these are just opinions. Do you know, are these guys
donating money back to Democrats?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, they are.
Mr. Crane. I would like to enter into the record, Mr.
Chairman, an article from Breitbart News saying--with the title
being ``Data base Searches Show Somali Fraudsters Funding
Democrat Politicians.''
So, these are not opinions; there is----
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Crane [continuing]. Actually reporting on this.
Are you guys aware--you guys are elected officials in
Minnesota, right? Are you guys aware of the reporting that some
of the stolen money is getting funneled back to the Islamic
terror group Al Shabaab in Somalia?
Ms. Robbins?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir. And we have evidence of it going
back as far as 2012, where a man was convicted of sending
$21,000 to Al Shabaab. In 2011, two Minnesota women were
convicted of sending money to different groups. Someone else--
we have multiple references of how the Al Shabaab takes a cut
when the money gets to Somalia through the hawala network.
So, I think there is ample evidence on this--and Federal
convictions.
Mr. Crane. Yes. That is outrageous.
Obviously, one of the biggest reasons so many Americans are
outraged by this massive exposure is because we generously and
often foolishly allow immigrants and people into our country
and then they rob the American people blind, while our debt
skyrockets and the American people struggle to make ends meet.
What do you guys--are you guys hearing from your
constituents the same outrage that I am hearing from mine about
this issue?
Ms. Robbins. Minnesotans are fed up. Everywhere I go in the
state, Minnesotans are so frustrated. As I said in my opening
remarks, we are a highly taxed state, and they are angry that
this much of their money, $9 billion, is being absconded by
criminals.
Mr. Crane. Mr. Hudson, are you just hearing from
Republicans on this, or are Democrat constituents like, ``Oh my
god, I am struggling to put my kids in school, struggling to
make ends meet, and my tax dollars are being robbed by people,
and then they are sending it all over the place, and this is
complete fraud. What is going on, and why hasn't anything been
done about it?''
Mr. Hudson. I will give you a personal example. So, my
family, my in-laws in particular, are politically diverse. A
lot of them vote for Democrats. And they are fairly apolitical;
they are not like me, all plugged in. And so, I kind of use
them as a bellwether for what the people are thinking. Across
the board, everybody is upset about this fraud.
Mr. Crane. And I am guessing, when you guys bring this up,
whether it is to the Walz Administration, whether it is to the
AG, the number-one thing that comes back at you is, you are a
racist, you are a White supremacist, or you are an Islamophobe.
As we have seen Governor Walz now trying to answer for
these questions, he is doing it at the national level. Are you
guys--do you guys hear the same thing at the state level as
well?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, absolutely. They always pivot to the
divisive. As I stated in my opening statement, it is diversion,
right? We are going to talk about personalities, we are going
to talk about partisan politics, we are going to find some way
to get people yelling at each other rather than looking at the
problem.
Mr. Crane. Or, like you have heard my colleagues do on this
panel, it is Donald Trump, baby.
Mr. Hudson. Yep.
Mr. Crane. It is all about Donald Trump, right? The old
pivot. We are not going to talk about what is going on in
Somalia and what is--or, not going to talk about what is going
on in Minnesota with this massive fraud scandal. We are going
to talk about Donald Trump.
With my remaining seconds, can we play the video I have,
Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Um.
Mr. Crane. Or did we run out of time?
Chairman Comer. We did run out of time. But can we put that
in the record? Would that--can we?
Mr. Crane. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Yes.
Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Thank you.
Representative Crane yields back.
The Chair recognizes Ms. Stansbury from New Mexico.
Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And Happy New Year. Welcome to our guests. Thank you to our
legislators for being here today, and to our guests.
You know, I am always--I come these to these Committee
hearings; I am ready to debate the topics. I am grateful that
you are bringing this case to our attention. Yes, we need to
prosecute these crimes, period. Period. Let us do that.
And I am also grateful to see that this Committee is
actually conducting a hearing that is in its jurisdiction,
which is oversight over government fraud.
But I do have to say, to my colleague's point that was just
made, that I am surprised to see the focus, given that the
President of the United States and the Administration are
engaged in fraudulent behavior literally daily. Including, just
a few days ago, invading a foreign country, using the United
States military to take their oil, and notifying oil and gas
companies before the U.S. Congress, and the President claiming
last night that he is personally going to control the oil and
give government kickbacks to oil and gas companies.
So, why are we not investigating that? It definitely gives
you the impression that there is a double standard in this
country.
I also want to say that I am troubled to see that this
hearing is being held in conjunction with an announcement that
the Administration made just yesterday that they were going to
freeze $10 billion in Federal funding for childcare and family
assistance to five states across the country. And if you
watched the President's crazy address yesterday, you heard him
say it himself.
But I want to say one thing, because my colleagues have
pointed out all about weaponizing the government for political
purposes. Well, these five states happen to have one thing in
common: They all have Democratic Governors and gubernatorial
elections this year. Is this a coincidence? I do not think so,
my friends.
And this, of course, comes after weeks of viral videos from
a young-man YouTuber who was literally creeping around daycares
by himself, making claims about fraud that were not there. And
then the Vice President and the FBI Director were retweeting
these videos without even verifying if they were true,
unleashing a furor of anti-immigrant and anti-Somali hate
across the country, wherein thousands of Somali people got
targeted and harassed, including by the President of the United
States, who literally used his platform as the President of the
United States to call an entire community ``garbage.'' He
literally said that.
So, we are not ``accusing'' people of being xenophobic and
racist. They are being xenophobic and racist, including the
President of the United States. And I want to say, for one,
that I stand with the Somali and the immigrant community,
standing here today.
But there is a bigger policy point here, which is that this
is being used as a politically expedient moment to take away
the immigration status of Somalis in the United States as part
of the mass deportation plan of this Administration. And it is
also being used by the 2025'ers in this Administration to
freeze critical programs that we know low-income families
depend on and which they call part of the ``woke agenda.'' This
is part of a larger effort to defund these programs, as we are
seeing across these five states.
So, I think it is important to pull back the curtain a
little bit about what is actually going on in this hearing and
its coordination with the Administration. That this is about,
one, demonizing political opponents in Democratic states during
a major election cycle; two, it is about demonizing the
immigrant community to support cruel and illegal mass
deportation policies; and, three, it is about demonizing poor
people and struggling families to justify taking away the basic
programs that are helping them survive in this country.
So, I want to just close out by saying that I grew up in a
low-income family. Many of you have heard my story before. But
as I woke up to the news that the President was freezing
childcare funding to these five states, I had to think about
the millions of families that would be impacted by it. I think
about my own mom, a single mom, barely struggling to get by,
working multiple jobs. These programs are a lifeline. They make
it possible for people like me to ultimately have a pathway to
success.
And you all are sitting here running legislation on
showerheads while millions of Americans' health insurance is
expiring, while millions of Americans cannot even put food on
the table right now. And you are over here parading around
state officials, demonizing immigrants, talking about cutting
basic programs, and you are passing legislation to redefine
showerheads in Congress, while the President of the United
States is illegally invading foreign countries.
Mr. Biggs. Order.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Stansbury. So, I find it appalling and disgusting----
Mr. Biggs. Order. Order.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes Dr. Foxx from North Carolina.
Mr. Biggs. I have a UC request.
Chairman Comer. Oh, before the Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs
from Arizona.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a UC request.
First one: ``HHS Freezes Childcare Payments to Minnesota
After Massive Fraud Alleged.''
Next one: ``Minnesota's Quality `Learing' Center Fixes
Sign. Address Still Misspelled.''
``Minnesota Made `It Easier' to Get Into Daycare
Business.''
``Trump's Deputies Freeze Childcare Payments to Minnesota
Amid Alleged Somali Fraud!''
``Jonathan Turley Explains Why Feds Can Dig Deep Into
Somali Scammer Scandal.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Gill.
Mr. Gill. I have got another UC request, an article from
City Journal, quote, ``The Largest Funder of Al-Shabaab is the
Minnesota Taxpayer.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
I believe, Mr. Fallon, you have a request?
Mr. Fallon. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would like to enter into
the record an article by the Center of the American Experiment,
``Feeding Our Future: Keith Ellison Caught on Tape!''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Dr. Foxx from North Carolina.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I thank our witnesses for being here today.
Representative Robbins, when Governor Walz testified before
this Committee last June, I reminded him that the fraud
involving the nonprofit Feeding Our Future established
Minnesota as ground zero for the largest COVID-19 fraud scheme
in the Nation.
Feeding Our Future took $250 million in Federal funds out
of the mouths of hungry children, which amounts to $1,600 per
child living in poverty in Minnesota. According to the FBI, the
$250 million in Federal taxpayer money was funneled, quote,
``into luxury homes, cars, and lavish lifestyles while families
struggled,'' end quote.
The FBI stated it, quote, ``will not allow criminals to rob
Federal programs and walk away unscathed. We will expose their
schemes, dismantle their networks, and ensure they face the
full weight of justice,'' end quote.
Last June, Governor Walz assured me that he, quote,
``wholeheartedly,'' end quote, supported the Federal
Government's efforts to bring to justice those who stole
Federal taxpayer money at the expense of hungry children.
If he had been true to his word, we would not be sitting
here today. However, the Committee's back today because the
Feeding Our Future scam is just the tip of the iceberg of fraud
in Minnesota and perhaps beyond.
Representative Robbins, Democrats in your state have tried
to dismiss your inquiry into the Feeding Our Future fraud as a
partisan political exercise. Is exposing fraud and theft of
taxpayer funds a partisan activity?
Ms. Robbins. No, ma'am. As I said in our first Committee
hearing, it is nonpartisan. Everyone should want to protect
taxpayers and vulnerable citizens.
Ms. Foxx. And we completely agree.
Representative Robbins, did Governor Walz work with you and
your Committee ``wholeheartedly'' to bring justice to those
involved in the Feeding Our Future fraud?
Ms. Robbins. No, ma'am. They have ignored the documents we
have provided to them.
We did a hearing in February 2025 on childcare fraud that
was outlined in the Nick Shirley video, and we gave them a list
of 72 childcare providers that we were concerned about that got
a million dollars each or more. And, as we saw in the Shirley
video last month, they have done nothing about it.
Ms. Foxx. Representative Hudson, for several years we have
heard about whistleblowers, highlighted by some of us in
Congress, who noted instances of fraud in Minnesota. With this
in mind, the recent allegations from Nick Shirley regarding
staggering amounts of fraud involving childcare centers come as
no surprise.
What kind of climate did Governor Walz create for
whistleblowers?
Mr. Hudson. Well, I think he did a really good job of
demonstrating for us the kind of climate that he has created
yesterday, when, in an unhinged rant, he tried to throw Deputy
U.S. Attorney Joe Thompson under the bus, a guy who has been
doing this for, I believe, 16 years.
If he is willing to throw a deputy U.S. Attorney under the
bus, what do you think he is going to do to a state agency
employee?
That is the climate. And everybody who works for the Walz
Administration knows it.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you.
Representative Rarick, do you believe the Walz
Administration seriously pursued whistleblowers' reports of
fraud?
Ms. Rarick. I think that the Walz Administration seriously
retaliated against whistleblowers and ignored them and
dismissed them. And, you know, in my opening statement, I
talked about the threats of firing them and blacklisting them
and things like that. So that is what the Walz Administration
focused on.
Ms. Foxx. Representative Rarick, innocent American
taxpayers are collateral damage in the Democrats' reckless
disregard for taxpayer funds. Hardworking Americans and their
communities are left to pay the price.
What lessons can other states and Federal officials take
from your work to expose the stunning amount of fraud and the
network of those who enabled it, that you all have exposed in
Minnesota?
Ms. Rarick. The answer to that is very simple, and that is:
If you just do simple, basic good governance like
reconciliation and a few other financial controls, you will not
have the problems that you have here. And if you do not
retaliate against your employees, your frontline workers that
point out fraud, you will not have this problem either.
Ms. Foxx. Representative Hudson, do you have anything you
would like to add to that?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, absolutely. You have to have a culture of
good faith. And that is what is lacking in Minnesota. There is
not a culture of good faith.
And you see a very strange strategy going on right now with
Minnesota Democrats where every day they are denying this
problem, which really strikes me as bizarre because we know
there are more prosecutions coming. So, what are they going to
say as story after story drops and we can cite time and date
where they said it was not a problem?
Ms. Foxx. Thank you.
And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to note that it was the
Education and Workforce Committee when I was Chair that first
brought this issue to the public's attention, and we got
nowhere under a Democrat administration.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. That is exactly correct. Thank you, Dr.
Foxx.
The Chair recognizes Ms. Summer Lee from Pennsylvania.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I think like so many people on this Committee have already
articulated, nobody here believes that rooting out fraud and
waste and abuse is not a top priority of this Committee, of our
caucus, of their conference. It is. If you are on this
Committee, it is the top charge that we all undertake
incredibly seriously.
But I think, like so many things with the modern Republican
Party, it is like you are skulking right around the edge of
things but too often your bigotry, the Republican Party's own
bigotry, is imprisoning them and keeping them from ever
actually doing something that helps, not harms, the American
people. And this is another one of those instances, right? When
it is a person of color, if it is two or three, it is a
pattern, and the entire community must be indicted. But if it
is 100 Republicans, it is just not that. Neither here nor
there.
Because it is important, that is why we have routinely held
hearings where we actually go over with the Government
Accountability Office their ``High Risk List.'' We take it
seriously.
But the tone of this hearing seems to be a hypocritical
witch hunt--it is hard to take it as anything but that--rather
than an actual oversight effort.
Our Federal Government currently has the tools to catch and
prevent waste, fraud, and abuse. It is how the alleged fraud in
Minnesota was caught by the Biden Administration in the first
place.
Mr. Ballou, as a former Federal prosecutor, you are
familiar with some of the tools that we have, correct?
Mr. Ballou. Yes.
Ms. Lee. Just briefly, could you please verify the
following tools for me?
Yes or no, does the Government Accountability Office work
to reduce waste, fraud, and abuse?
Mr. Ballou. Yes.
Ms. Lee. Do Inspectors General work toward these goals?
Mr. Ballou. Absolutely.
Ms. Lee. What about the Council of the Inspectors General
on Integrity and Efficiency?
Mr. Ballou. Yes.
Ms. Lee. Are whistleblowers important to rooting out waste,
fraud, and abuse?
Mr. Ballou. Absolutely.
Ms. Lee. Has the Trump Administration helped or hurt these
tools?
Mr. Ballou. Certainly hurt it by disbanding the council for
inspectors general and then ultimately firing 19 IGs.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. That is right.
Again and again, Trump has attacked the oversight
mechanisms within the Federal Government. He illegally fired 17
Inspectors General and other key personnel. He goes after
whistleblowers, and he tries to roll back their protections. He
routinely ignores the rampant corruption within his own
Administration.
Republicans have turned a blind eye to all of this. They
have held no hearings on these actions.
And this hearing today is not even about fraud generally
within the Federal benefits system, which we would welcome.
Republicans have cherry-picked a blue state and an immigrant
population--vulnerable--to demonize. To be clear, Minnesota is
not the only state with a fraud problem.
To truly tackle waste, fraud, and abuse, we need to
approach the issue with a scalpel, not a mallet. Discovering
that people are committing fraud in a Federal program does not
mean we should smash the whole thing and end it. It means its
oversight mechanisms need to be improved.
That is why it is so disappointing to see that the
Minnesota House Fraud Prevention Committee that our witness,
Hon. Kristin Robbins, chairs, has issued no reports on these
uncovered schemes. It has not advanced any legislation to
address the issue or even shared whistleblower reports with
their Democratic colleagues. They have just held a bunch of
hearings and generated headlines--something our Committee is
all too familiar with.
This hearing is not an effort by Republicans to improve
social service programs. It is an excuse to end them and to
punish Democratic-led states.
This has always been the plan. It is why Republicans' so-
called Big, Beautiful Bill is estimated to cut more than $1
trillion from Medicaid and CHIP benefits and cut SNAP for 40
million people, the very children or folks with disabilities
who were mentioned in the opening statements.
Trump has also already taken advantage of the situation in
Minnesota. After a YouTuber harassed and posted unsubstantiated
claims of fraud against childcare centers, HHS froze childcare
funding to Minnesota, which would affect more than 23,000
children.
Just yesterday, Trump also froze approximately $10 billion
in funding for programs supporting childcare, social services
grants, and cash assistance in not only Minnesota but in other
Democratic-led states--California, Colorado, New York, and
Illinois.
No matter what party we are elected to, we represent the
people of our district, Democrat or Republican. We represent,
as the Federal Government, all people of all states
irrespective of how they voted. That is the charge that I took,
and I would like and hope that you all would do the same.
When so many of these social service programs are being
gutted and defunded, fraud becomes even more harmful, as that
means even less money is going to people who need it. People
need these programs.
This situation should be an opportunity to take a deep look
at the programs and improve their oversight abilities, not an
excuse to cut them entirely.
If we care about the most vulnerable, if we care about the
most marginalized, this is an opportunity to do so. And I
welcome us to actually do that one day.
Thanks. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Ms. Lee, the IGs are hired to identify
fraud. They have not identified fraud. The IGs have failed.
But, anyway.
Ms. Lee. You all have failed.
Chairman Comer. No. You----
Ms. Lee. You all continue to fail.
Chairman Comer [continuing]. All have failed. You----
Ms. Lee. We have done nothing. You have the gavel, Mr.
Comer.
Chairman Comer. This is----
Ms. Lee. We barely do hearings----
Chairman Comer. How do you say we failed?
Ms. Lee [continuing]. On anything that actually affects
change.
Chairman Comer. You have failed. You want----
Ms. Lee. You have power here, and yet you----
Chairman Comer [continuing]. To spend more money, more
money, more money.
Ms. Lee [continuing]. Do not do anything.
Mr. Fallon. Decorum.
Ms. Lee. Yes. He actually initiated this, though----
Chairman Comer. All right. The Chair recognizes----
Ms. Lee [continuing]. But thank you so much for your
opinion.
Chairman Comer. You have failed.
Ms. Lee. I yielded back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Perry from
Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
Mr. Perry. I thank the Chairman.
And I would just like to point out to everybody that, at
this very moment, we are going to consider an appropriations
bill that had an earmark in it for a million dollars for
another Somali-led organization whose family has ties and
convictions to ISIS and fentanyl-related addiction.
And I think it is very difficult to just--for all of us to
determine what is legitimate and what is not.
But I would just ask if the Committee will play the video
that Mr. Crane had referred to for me at this time.
Chairman Comer. Can you stop the--okay. Go ahead.
[Video shown.]
Mr. Perry. Can we get the sound turned up?
You can see the subtitles there.
If you will notice the campaign contribution at the bottom
for $4,700 and then the $250-million fraud scheme associated
with said individuals.
Listen, ladies and gentlemen, it is not me calling out one
community or another or one individual Representative or
another; it is fraud.
Representatives Robbins, Hudson, and Rarick, thanks for
your service. I know it is difficult and you are operating in
difficult circumstances where it does not sound like you have
got a lot of support.
And I imagine that, as Ms. Robbins--Representative Robbins,
you are the Chair of the Oversight Policy Committee? Is that
right?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Perry. Yes. I imagine, at the state level, you do not
quite have the resources you need to track down all this stuff.
This Federal jury found that the Feeding Our Future mastermind
and co-defendant and also the contributor to one of your
Representatives from your state, one of our colleagues here,
$4,700, for a $250-million pandemic fraud scheme--like, you do
not probably have the resources to find that kind of stuff. It
is massive, right?
And I suspect, as someone who--you know, you serve at the
pleasure of your constituents who want to see you elected and
contribute to you--a $4,700 campaign contribution for $250
million of, I guess, spending at the Federal level is a pretty
good investment for people.
We are not here to pick on anybody, but I will tell you, I
think the American people are particularly affronted when their
goodwill is returned by stealing their hard-earned money.
I just want to--if you can comment on that particular case,
this Feeding Our Future, and the fact that these folks pled
guilty to $250 million, and then connections to the political
operation in your state which is dismantling your state.
Ms. Robbins. Thank you, sir.
Yes. So, this is the big problem. There is a network of
people who have been politically supporting the Democrats, who
have also been contributing to them, and who have been involved
in multiple schemes.
So, a woman who was in this childcare group, the Minnesota
Minority Childcare Association, Ikram Mohamed, she was later
indicted in the Feeding Our Future scandal, as was her brother
and her mother and, I believe, a sister. And so, it is a
network that functions in our state that we have to get a
handle on.
And then one of the people indicted in that case, for
Feeding Our Future, for money-laundering $1.1 million, then
they used that same company, shell company, they did the money
laundering with, to buy property for an assisted-living
facility after they were indicted. And then his wife has a
company getting millions of dollars from the state to provide
services to the assisted-living facility bought by his shell
company he has already been indicted for.
They do not shut off the spigot. That is the problem.
Mr. Perry. So, this is completely outrageous, obviously.
I am not an attorney. Are any one of you three attorneys?
Are you?
Ms. Robbins. No, sir.
Mr. Perry. So, you know, you said, Representative Robbins,
that you informed the Governor of these things. That is what
you said, right? That is your testimony here today.
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir. I did a hearing on it, and I brought
charts and laid out the roadmap.
Mr. Perry. So, there are crimes of commission and crimes of
omission. So, if the Governor did not actively be involved in
this fraud, that would be a crime of commission. But if he knew
about it and did not do anything about it, would you consider
that a crime of omission?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Perry. And what should be done about crimes of omission
regarding taxpayer funds?
Ms. Robbins. So, they should be prosecuted.
And when, as you said, we do not have a lot of resources on
our Committee. As legislators, we do not have access to bank
records, health records, the state payment system. So, when we
get credible allegations of fraud, we bring it to the U.S.
Attorney and the Office of Legislative Auditor, because they
can get access to those records and then bring the prosecutions
criminally.
Mr. Perry. Thank you, Chair. I yield.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Before I go to Ms. Randall, the Chair
recognizes Mr. Biggs for a UC.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Number one, ``Washington Post Calls for Welfare Reform
After Minnesota Fraud Scandal.''
``Exclusive: Treasury and House Panel Launch Probes Into
Tim Walz's Handling of a Billion Dollars of Food Aid Fraud.''
Additionally, X--referring to the earmark that Mr. Perry
just referred to.
Additionally, ``The Somali Fraud Scandal Gave Trump a Kill
Switch. What Happens If He Does Not Use It.''
``Resurfaced Video Shows How Somali Scammers Use Day Care
Centers to Scam State.''
``Scrutinizing SNAP Will Help Ensure the Neediest Get Food
Stamps.''
``MASTER Class! AG Hamilton SCHOOLS WaPo Hack Playing Race
Card to Defend Somali Fraud Ring in Minnesota.''
``Tim Walz Was Brought Down by a Scandal Hiding in Plain
Sight.''
``Unearthed Surveillance Video Shows Parents Allegedly
Helping with Fraud.''
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back--or, I am sorry.
Without objection, so ordered.
The gentleman yields back.
Ms. Randall, a couple of our witnesses have requested
bathroom breaks. I told them the Ranking Member and I agreed,
they can go and come back. We are going to keep the hearing
going. If your questions were pertaining to one of them, we
will skip to someone else, if that----
Ms. Randall. That is fine.
Chairman Comer. Do you want to go ahead? All right. The
Chair recognizes you for 5 minutes.
Ms. Randall. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You know, I have prepared some remarks that I definitely
want to get to about the importance of childcare funding for
all of us and all of our districts. I think we all recognize
that we are in a childcare crisis. We have lost so many
parents, especially women, from the workforce because they just
cannot find adequate childcare.
But I have to start by addressing some of what we have
heard in this Committee so far today.
I did not get myself together to ask any of my colleagues
to yield for a question, so I will ask you. And if you do not
know the answer, it is okay; I do.
What percent of sexual assaults in the United States are
committed by White men?
Ms. Robbins. I do not know.
Ms. Randall. Fifty-seven percent.
Of the January 6 insurrectionists who were pardoned, do you
know how many have been charged and convicted and arrested of
additional crimes, including child sexual assault, kidnapping,
production of child pornography, rape, conspiracy to murder an
FBI agent, domestic violence by strangulation?
Mr. Hudson. I do not have that information.
Ms. Randall. No. Thirty-three since their pardons.
Of the 21,504 murder offenders in the United States in
2023, do you know how many were White?
Ms. Robbins. No.
Ms. Randall. Eight thousand, eight hundred and forty-two,
which is 41 percent.
Following the domestic extremists tracker that George
Washington University (GW) compiles, since 2015, there have
been 643 individuals charged, 447 percent found guilty. Do you
know how many are men?
Mr. Hudson. You tell me.
Ms. Randall. Ninety-five percent.
We can trot out all of the data that we want to create the
sense that there is a bad guy, there is a bad group of people,
there are folks who are not among us, there are folks who are
other. And I think we should spend a lot more time looking at
ourselves, looking at American citizens, looking at White men,
who are committing violence at disproportionate rates in our
country, who are committing crimes at disproportionate rates in
our country, including the President of the United States who
is sitting at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, as so many of my
colleagues have pointed out.
I also want to say, you know, I have heard a lot about the
Somali donors to political campaigns. We all acknowledge,
right, that you cannot donate to a political campaign in the
United States unless you are an American citizen, right? I am
just going to, like, acknowledge that.
You know who else is getting rich as a campaign donor at
the expense of the U.S. taxpayers and because of the decisions
that this government has made? Yes, Elon Musk, but also
billionaire Paul Singer, a Trump donor who is getting rich off
the military actions that this President engaged in, in
Venezuela.
Now, about childcare, $7 for every $1 spent on childcare
and early learning are returned to our U.S. economy. It is good
for families. It is good for kids. It is good for our economic
growth. But we are still facing a childcare crisis in this
country.
Chair Robbins, I understand that you have three kids and
that they were enrolled in daycare at one point before you
became a stay-at-home mom. What would your reaction be to an
unknown, potentially armed angry individual, showing up at your
home with a camera demanding to enter while your children were
at home?
Ms. Robbins. So, we used a neighbor to do our childcare.
Ms. Randall. What if they showed up at your neighbor's
house?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. I do not think she would--they would be
coming in, but----
Ms. Randall. How would you feel about it if someone who was
armed and angry showed up in the house where your children
were?
Ms. Robbins. I am not sure I understand. Who is armed? What
are you asking about?
Ms. Randall. Thank you. I imagine you would be scared. I
think many families would be scared if that happens to you. I
want to share a story of a provider from Washington State who
said, following the fraud claims and the demonization of Somali
Americans and childcare providers, three adults came into her
home and banged on her door startling the children in her care.
The children were frightened and confused. She has been
receiving repeated death threats by phone and voice mail.
Individuals have returned multiple times, sometimes two or
three times a day, parking outside the home and monitoring
activity. They recorded families arriving and leaving. As a
result, families felt unsafe and some withdrew their children
from care. A nearby provider closed their program entirely due
to fear.
Another provider shared that she was approached by a man
with a gun outside her home who interrogated her about her
childcare program, and she is now too scared to step outside.
Providers are not answering the phone anymore because of all
the threats, which means that parents are not able to get in
touch with staff regarding their children's care.
Mr. Biggs. Order. Mr. Chairman, order.
Chairman Comer. Gentlelady's time is expired. You went 30
seconds over. As did Ms. Stansbury, so.
Ms. Randall. Thank you for your lenience, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Gosar from
Arizona.
Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the
witnesses for traveling.
Ms. Robbins, the Minnesota legislature led by your
Committee sounded the alarm on the fraud for years, but it was
ignored by Governor Walz. Did Keith Ellison, the Attorney
General, also--was he aware of this?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, he was aware of the fraud, and he came
before our Committee, and I feel like he did not do his job
prosecuting these cases. Most of the cases have been prosecuted
federally by the U.S. Attorney, both under President Biden in
Feeding Our Future and currently under President Trump.
Mr. Gosar. So, he, in your state, is the top attorney for
the public, right?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Mr. Gosar. For the public. That is what I find very
interesting. Well, maybe it has to do something with the
campaign contributions Attorney General Ellison and his son
received from members of Feeding Our Future, an organization
now under investigation. The same group whose members allegedly
tried to bribe jurors, but I am sure that is just a
coincidence. Nothing to see here. Sounds very familiar. Sounds
very Biden crime syndicatedesque.
Now, when you are talking about the tools that you could
use, would any Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) that takes
Federal funding be of value to you that they would have to
disclose all their Federal funding or all their funding
mechanisms as they take one penny from the Federal Government?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. One of the things we have seen in
Minnesota is that some of these nonprofits have had their
Federal 501(c)(3) status revoked, but the state continues to
fund it.
Mr. Gosar. It is interesting you say that, because you
know, the IRS actually does a study that actually has those
numbers, but when we order it, it is blanked out. It is
redacted. All of it is redacted. I wonder if there are some
interesting aspects to that, you know, follow-the-money trail.
Now, Representative Hudson, the head of Feeding Our Future
was sentenced in November for his role in the largest COVID
fraud scheme in United States history according to the DOJ.
This is a predictable result of the massive COVID spending with
little or no oversight. In fact, we spent between $4.3 and $7.5
trillion during COVID, and we do not have a single receipt, not
one. Okay?
Now, this is a predictable outcome from massive spending,
whether it is expanded COVID tax credits under the so called
Affordable Care Act or the programs like the massive Minnesota
HHS initiative with no enrollment cap. Unfortunately, there are
plenty of similar Federal programs right here in Washington,
D.C.
My question for you is, in your experience, what failures
make government funding streams particularly susceptible to
fraud?
Mr. Hudson. Well, as I outlined in my opening statement,
and in my written testimony, basically we are spending far more
money than we have the operational capacity to monitor. Like,
they are just--now deputy U.S. Attorney, was U.S. Attorney at
the time, Joe Thompson, said we cannot prosecute our way out of
this. That is another way of saying it. We have to have
controls on the front end.
Mr. Gosar. And with massive amounts, like I just talked to
you about in COVID, you know, it actually--it gives the
environment for fraud. It just builds on it, right?
Mr. Hudson. Correct.
Mr. Gosar. Well, Ms. Rarick, what concrete actions did
Walz's Administration take to intimidate whistleblowers into
silence?
Ms. Rarick. So, I think the first thing he did, was he put
in place commissioners. Right now, we have a deputy
commissioner over the Department of Human Services that is
known to whistleblowers as being, like, the queen of
retaliation, so when you put somebody in charge that is known
to retaliate, that is a problem.
I would also note on your previous question about the COVID
money, and we discovered in our Committee that the auditor--so
there was a bid for auditing the COVID-19 money, and the
auditor was known to be our Minnesota State Auditor Blaha, so
that is another Democrat within the whole fold of the Democrats
involved as well.
Mr. Gosar. Would it surprise you that we spent $13 trillion
from Bill Clinton to Donald Trump in that span of time, $13
trillion with not a single receipt?
Ms. Rarick. That is absolutely shocking. I used to do
accounting, and that is deplorable. That is something that you
should be in prison for that.
Mr. Gosar. Absolutely. So, you know, the United States has
no obligation to tolerate guests who break our laws, and in
this case, there seems like there are a whole bunch of them,
and unfortunately, they were targeting one general area. And it
is sad to me that we are always being screamed at about
xenophobia, all these different types of phobias and racist,
and yet, the facts still stand.
So, Mr. Chairman, I find it very interesting, today's
hearing, and I applaud you for doing it. Thank you, I yield
back.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes the
lady from Texas, Ms. Jasmine Crockett.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, may I do a UC?
Chairman Comer. I am sorry, Ms. Crockett. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. I apologize for that.
Chairman Comer. That is alright.
Mr. Biggs. There are some more UCs. ``Senator John Kennedy
brings Somali fraud to the Senate Floor.'' ``Viral Video's
David says he Filed Complaint Against Walz Over Fraud
Allegations.'' ``Minnesota adds Medicaid Fraud Verification
Amid Alleged $9 Billion Loss.'' ``Minnesota Somali Fraudsters
Paid for Rich Lifestyles with Stolen Money.'' ``What
Investigators Still Haven't Asked about Minnesota's Fraud,'' I
hope to ask that. ``Trump Deploys 2,000 Federal Agents to
Minnesota.'' ``Venezuela Has Been Dealt with; Somali Scammers
Should be Next.'' ``Beyond Parity: Craigslist Ad from a Day
Care Center in Minneapolis Seeks to Hire 20 Child Actors.''
``Dr. Oz Orders Full Scale Federal Audit of Minnesota
Medicaid.'' ``Did You Miss a Story about Alleged Medicaid Fraud
from a Somalian-run Health Services Provider in Maine?'' ``A
YouTubers Follow-up Video on Minnesota Fraud is Just as Wild.''
``HHS to Close Biden Era Loophole that Lets States Pay Child
Care Providers Without Counting Attendance.'' Yield back. Thank
you.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Jasmine Crockett from Texas.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and for every
witness that is here, thank you so much for your time and your
attention.
I just have one quick question. I have not been here the
entire hearing, but I do not think this question has been posed
for each of you, and we can start at the far end. Do you
believe that all Somalis are engaged in fraud?
Ms. Robbins. I do not, and I would like to----
Ms. Crockett. Okay. Just yes or no. Next.
Mr. Hudson. Of course not.
Ms. Rarick. Absolutely not. We have good Somali people in
our state.
Mr. Ballou. Absolutely not.
Ms. Crockett. Okay. Thank you so much. I just want to make
sure I level set, because it seems like we want to continue to,
especially as we just heard those particular articles entered
into the record, we want to continue to just make it seem as if
you are Somali, then somehow you are a fraudster, and this
Administration has decided that it wants a target on their
backs. And so when my colleague, Ms. Randall, decided that she
wanted to talk about the threats that are being made toward
various Somali people, the reason she brought it up is because
this particular side of the aisle has a tendency of if one
person does something bad, especially if they are an immigrant,
then we are going to cast aside that entire community. So, I
wanted to level set, and I appreciate your honesty, because
that is something that we very rarely get from our colleagues
on the other side of the aisle.
In fact, if we want to talk about fraud, I got a lot of
fraud that we are going to talk about, because we going to get
into this, but I am very curious to hear--you know, let me ask
you, Mr. Ballou, are you aware of allegations that $50,000 in
taxpayer dollars have been given to someone that is currently
sitting in this Administration by the name of Tom Homan? Are
you aware? Okay. That is a yes?
Mr. Ballou. I am.
Ms. Crockett. Okay. And last I checked, and correct me if I
am wrong if you have different information, but he was given
that $50,000 in exchange for being able to provide contracts
and kickbacks to people as soon as Trump was going to get into
office. The DOJ was actually investigating this, but as soon as
Trump got into office, last I checked, he actually said go
ahead and throw away that case.
Mr. Ballou. So, it was a Department of Justice
investigation and he accepted the money from an undercover FBI
agent in cash.
Ms. Crockett. Are you aware as to whether or not we ever
got that $50,000 back?
Mr. Ballou. I am not.
Ms. Crockett. Oh, okay. Are you aware as to whether or not
this Committee has decided to investigate that?
Mr. Ballou. I am not.
Ms. Crockett. Are you aware as to whether or not any
committee in Congress has decided to investigate the fact that
we know that he took $50,000 from an undercover officer and yet
we still do not have that money nor does he have any charges?
Mr. Ballou. I am not.
Ms. Crockett. Oh, okay. All right. So, let us get into it.
We are living through the most corrupt Presidential
administration in American history, a $300 million ballroom, a
$230 million payout from the Department of Justice because the
President got his feelings hurt because he has to be
investigated for being a criminal, hundreds of thousands of
taxpayer dollars spent at Trump-owned properties around the
country, Trump branded wine being sold at the Coast Guard
exchanges, American taxpayer dollars being spent on DHS
propaganda ads on Truth Social, awarding Federal contracts to
corporations in exchange for campaign contributions. Kash Patel
flew his girlfriend around the country on a multimillion-dollar
jet that taxpayers paid for. Kristi Noem gave companies she is
affiliated with hundreds of millions of tax dollars, then went
out and spent another $200 million on two private jets for her
travel.
For 12 months, this Administration has been taking billions
of taxpayer dollars from American people and have been giving
it away to their own companies in the form of tax cuts,
government contracts, or other government-funded subsidies. So,
Congress has a role in getting rid of fraud, I will admit that,
in any federally funded government program.
However, I think the fraud that the American people are
concerned about is that the Republicans are taking away
American's healthcare so that ultra billionaires can get more
tax cuts. The real fraud is the dehumanization and demonization
of the working-class Americans and immigrants to distract folks
away from corporate socialism that is happening because of the
Republicans, so this is truly the definition of throwing away
the baby with the bath water.
The Republican philosophy is that if the cost of living for
the average American increases, they are on their own, but if
the cost of doing business increases for the wealthiest people
on earth, well, then it is the government's job to bail them
out.
But I want to get to my last question, because Mr. Ballou,
I got to give you a chance. He has been issuing pardons for
numerous people who have defrauded the American people, and
Republicans on this Committee, yes, just as quiet as the room
just got, right?
So, Mr. Ballou, talk to me about how the Trump
Administration has welcomed fraud across government by purging
DOJ attorneys and shuttering ethics offices across the Federal
Government.
Mr. Ballou. Well, you know, one of the things that has been
a common theme in this discussion so far is potential
government employee involvement in some of these schemes. That
has not been proven yet, but it does seem to be alleged. The
concern that I have, is the office that would prosecute that in
the Department of Justice, the public integrity section, has
been largely defunded and decimated.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. My time is expired, but I
do have some UCs, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Do you want to do them now?
Ms. Crockett. I do.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Ms. Crockett. The first one is from Truthout. ``Trump
Grants Clemency to Executive who led $205 million Medicare
Fraud Scheme.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Crockett. The next one is, ``Trump Commutes Sentence of
Dr. Salomon Melgen, Eye Doctor Found Guilty of Medicare
Fraud.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Crockett. The next one, ``Healthcare Fraudster Philip
Esformes is Latest Trump Clemency Recipient to be Arrested.''
He defrauded more than $1 billion from Medicare.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Crockett. ``Trump Pardons Nursing Home Owner and
Supporter Convicted of $7 Million in Tax Evasion.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
And we will want all that stuff to put in the record.
Ms. Crockett. I will. I got you. ``Trump Pardons Cost
Victims and Taxpayers $1.3 Billion, House Judiciary Committee
Democrats' Review Said.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Biggs.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Chair recognizes Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. I have a request to be recognized to make a
motion.
Chairman Comer. I am sorry?
Ms. Mace. I have a request to be recognized to make a
motion.
Chairman Comer. Yes, go ahead.
Ms. Mace. I move that the Committee issue a subpoena to the
Department of Homeland Security and the U.S. Citizenship and
Immigration Services for all records related to the immigration
and naturalization of, or any immigration benefit received by,
Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Ahmed Abdi Salan Hirsi also known as
Ahmed Aden, Ahmed Nur Said Elmi, and any members of Ilhan
Omar's family.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Another motion was just made. The
Committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of
today's hearing. The Committee will now proceed with today's
hearing. Thank you, Ms. Mace.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs from Arizona.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
A report that came out yesterday indicates that on average,
almost $1 million a day in cash is being sent from Minnesota
out of the country by a small group of Somali carriers. Are any
of you familiar with that on the panel?
Ms. Robbins. I am not familiar with that particular story,
but that story has been in Minnesota for a long time where
millions of dollars has gone out of Minneapolis-St. Paul (MSP)
airport in cash to Somali.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be admitted to
this hearing.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. The Biden Administration required
states to pay healthcare and daycare providers before verifying
any attendance at a daycare and before care was delivered.
Would you say that policy facilitated the funneling of funds or
defrauding of government funds? We will start with--we will go
down the panel and start with Representative Robbins, please.
Ms. Robbins. My understanding is that there were not ever
enough internal controls, but under Medicaid rules, the Walz
Administration already had the opportunity to stop payment when
there were credible allegations of fraud. They had the
opportunity to do prepayment review. They could do all of those
things, and they did not use those tools.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Hudson?
Mr. Hudson. Not only does paying people before they deliver
a service introduce an obvious opportunity for people to
abscond with public dollars, but we have heard these arguments
in our committees back in Minnesota from Minnesota Democrats
that it is just so important that we pay people up front
because they cannot afford to wait for the reimbursements.
Mr. Biggs. Ms. Rarick.
Ms. Rarick. Yes. This is absolutely counter to good
accounting and good accountability, so I would definitely say
that you should be providing service and getting paid after.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Ballou, what do you think?
Mr. Ballou. I cannot speak to that policy only because I am
learning about it just now, but I will say, you know----
Mr. Biggs. Wait, wait, so then the question then is, do you
think it is a good idea to pay for the service up front before
it is delivered and without accounting?
Mr. Ballou. You know, I can only speak to the criminal side
of things, not the administrative side, by my concern here,
again, is to the extent that there would be violations because
of that change, the office responsible for prosecuting that----
Mr. Biggs. Okay. So, you did not want to answer the
question. You want to filibuster. Thanks, brother. Appreciate
it.
Now, here where we are going to go is one of the things
that you mentioned, Representative Robbins, is fiscal
facilities and real estate. And as we have seen and looked at
this, as I have looked at this, all of the public reporting
that is out there, looked at a little bit of exhibit A, that is
like 2,800 pages, 2,300, whatever it is, did not get to look at
all of it but looked at some of it, I want to know did anybody
go in and find out who is owning all these properties? Because
you have basically vacant properties, ostensibly holding
themselves out to be daycare centers. Who owns those
properties? Anybody looked into that?
Ms. Robbins. So, some of our staff is looking at it
currently, and I would encourage people to think about this as
you look at your other states. We have people who own the
properties and then other people related to them or close to
them that provide the services, and they both get remuneration,
and then we have people who homestead assisted living
facilities, small, single-family homes, and say it is a
business, but then they should not be allowed to homestead. We
have instances where there are multiple assisted living
facilities that have been homesteaded, so the ownership of the
properties and the ownership of the business is very important.
This has gotten to be such a problem in Minnesota that people
invest in the daycare business as an investment. And so,
getting not only who runs the facility but who the ownership
is, is critical, because that is where a lot of the money goes.
Mr. Biggs. That is my point is that you are setting up a
series and facilitating straw man purchases of actual real
property to actually launder or hide money coming from the
state and defraud the state, and I would encourage both the
feds and the state to really take a close look at that.
I did find it interesting--well, let me just ask the last
question I have got time for here is, well, I got to ask two.
The $18 billion, I am saying $18 billion. That is the total nut
over the last five years, if I understand your testimony right,
Representative Hudson, and half of it was defrauded.
Mr. Hudson. That is the estimate from the U.S. Attorney's
Office.
Mr. Biggs. Okay. Has the Walz Administration put into place
any new procedures since this has come to a very viral head in
the last, you know, six weeks?
Mr. Hudson. They have appointed a couple of guys and
shifted around a couple of chairs on the deck, but it is the
equivalent of throwing a glass of water at a stove that is on
fire.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I have a few more UCs, if I may.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. ``Victims Shocked after Biden Grants
Clemency to Kids for Cash Judge and $54 Million Embezzler.''
Shocked. ``Biden Clemency for Convicted Fraudsters Met with
Outrage--It's a Slap in the Face.'' ``Comer on Fox News, Biden
Crime Family Pardon Serve as a Confession of Their
Corruption.'' ``Biden Pardons More People in his Criminal Clan
and Commutes Sentence of Leonard Peltier.'' Op-ed from the
former--the legislative auditor Jim Nobles, ``What is the
`Right' Number?'' And then, finally, Mr. Chairman, 18 U.S. Code
666, theft or bribery concerning programs receiving Federal
funds, seems apt in this case. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes Ms. Pressley from Massachusetts.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me just begin by
making this claim. Credible fraud must be investigated and
prevented. Every dollar that is stolen from public programs is
a dollar that is taken from a child who needs care, a senior
who needs food, or a family that is already struggling to make
ends meet.
Ms. Robbins, I want to just begin with a basic question,
and please answer yes or no. When someone is convicted of
defrauding the public, do you believe that they should be held
accountable?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Ms. Pressley. So, if we are serious about fraud, then we
also have to be serious about accountability. Ms. Robbins, do
you mind just expounding, what does accountability look like to
you?
Ms. Robbins. We want to prosecute everyone who has
committed a crime, and we want to fire officials in the
agencies that are liable for allowing the failure of internal
controls.
Ms. Pressley. Okay. So, Ms. Robbins, let me be more clear.
What should happen to fraudsters who steal public dollars?
Ms. Robbins. They should go to jail.
Ms. Pressley. So, in my opinion, you know, accountability
means restitution, it means consequences, like incarceration,
that help ensure that it does not happen again, you know, as a
real deterrent in accountability. It means that money taken
from families and the public is returned to them.
But that is not the standard that is being set by Donald
Trump who is wielding his clemency authority to allow
fraudsters to escape accountability altogether. Last month my
office published a clemency report titled ``Trump's Clemency
Gap, How Trump's Pardons are Ignoring the People Who Need Them
the Most.'' I ask unanimous consent to enter this into the
record.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you.
Now to the witnesses who serve in the Minnesota State
Legislature on the Fraud Prevention Committee, let us walk
through these pardons for fraudsters, and we all care about
fraud. So, Ms. Robbins, Mr. Hudson, and Ms. Rarick, Donald
Trump pardoned George Santos who defrauded voters and owed them
$370,000 in restitution to victims. Raise your hand if you
oppose this pardon. Thank you, Mr. Ballou.
Ms. Robbins. Ma'am, I would have to look at the law and the
facts of the case. We cannot know the facts of all these
individual cases.
Ms. Pressley. Please, no, do not deflect. This is a very
public case. You know who George Santos is. You know exactly
what he did. We just agreed that, you know, fraud is
unacceptable, and so you just talked about accountability. You
said if people commit fraud and exploit the public good that
they should be incarcerated, so this is not a complicated
question.
So, I will give you all one more opportunity. Ms. Robbins,
Mr. Hudson, and Ms. Rarick, raise your hand if you oppose the
pardon of George Santos.
Mr. Hudson. Not playing this game.
Ms. Pressley. It is not a game. It is real life. It is not
a game at all. Okay. I will take your refusal to go on record
not only as cowardice, but that you do agree with that pardon
of that fraudster.
Moving on, Donald Trump also gave, and this has never been
done before, Presidential pardons to corporations that
committed fraud. One example is the crypto company BitMEX that
violated U.S. law and was fined $100 million. Now, raise your
hand if you oppose Trump's pardon of this crypto company.
Mr. Hudson. Not participating.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Mr. Ballou. Again, I will take
your refusal to not--to raise your hand in opposition, that
means that you support this pardon of this corporation that
frauded folks to the tune of $100 million.
Mr. Hudson. Refusal to participate is not an expression.
Ms. Pressley. Yesterday--reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my
time.
Mr. Hudson. Refusal to participate is not expression one
way or the other.
Ms. Pressley. Do you know the rules of Committee? This is
my time.
Mr. Hudson. I know that I am here----
Ms. Pressley. You will not speak over me.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. As a member of the public----
Ms. Pressley. Reclaiming my time. You were not----
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. That you serve. That is what I
know.
Ms. Pressley. Mr. Chair? Mr. Chair? You are not in order
with the rules of the Committee. This is my time. This is my
time.
Mr. Hudson. And it is our dollars.
Ms. Pressley. I ask the questions and you answer, but you
are too much of a coward to answer, so we are going to move on.
Now, yesterday was the five-year anniversary, and I want to
note, of the January 6 insurrection, and on Donald Trump's
first day in office, he pardoned 1,500 insurrectionists,
including Brian Christopher Mock, who is from Minnesota. Are
you all going to say you do not know who that is? He is from
Minnesota.
Now, he kicked, shoved, and threw a flagpole at police
officers. You know law enforcement that you claim to support?
And he did all of that in the name of fraud. He was an election
denier. So, an election fraud lie. Now, he claims he did these
things in the name of patriotism, but really he is just a
criminal, so raise your hand if you oppose Trump's pardon of
this Minnesota individual.
Ms. Robbins. Ma'am, this grandstanding nonsense----
Ms. Pressley. This is not grandstanding.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. Is exactly what Minnesotans hate
about D.C.
Ms. Pressley. This is accountability. This is
accountability and you are hypocrites. So, again, I will take
your refusal----
Mr. Hudson. Thanks for demonstrating my opening statement.
Ms. Pressley. Excuse me, reclaiming my time.
Ms. Mace. Decorum. She is off the rails.
Ms. Pressley. Reclaiming my time. I am not off the rails.
Please.
Ms. Mace. You are totally off the rails.
Ms. Pressley. Enough with your tropes, Nancy. Enough with
your tropes. Give me my time back.
Mr. Biggs. Order. Order, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Pressley. If Republicans were serious--reclaiming my
time. Mr. Chair?
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady's time is expired.
Mr. Hudson. You serve me and my constituents.
Ms. Pressley. Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my time.
Ms. Mace. You are out of time.
Ms. Pressley. Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my time. Mr.
Chair, I lost at least ten seconds from my----
Ms. Mace. You are out of time.
Chairman Comer. Time is expired.
Ms. Mace. Out of order and out of time.
Chairman Comer. Ms. Pressley, you have already secured your
MSNBC spot tonight. Your time is expired.
Ms. Pressley. I am not looking--I am looking for
accountability. And you want to run from accountability and
your king----
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. You are going to be so good on MSNBC.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Mace.
Ms. Pressley [continuing]. And this Administration.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Mr. Chairman, I
agree, she is going to be a great host on MSNBC.
Ms. Pressley. You do not care about hungry children, or you
would not to be cutting Medicaid.
Ms. Mace. This is my time. I reclaim my time.
Chairman Comer. I would not want to jump in front of Ms.
Mace if I were you, Ms. Pressley.
Ms. Mace. I reclaim my time. This is my time.
Chairman Comer. I would not want to interrupt Ms. Mace. It
is her time. The Chair recognizes----
Ms. Pressley. My time was interrupted, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair, she did not get all her time.
Mr. Hudson. She wants to insult us for ten more seconds.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, she is still out of order. What do
we have to do to get this woman in order?
Chairman Comer. Your time is expired. The Chair recognizes
Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. You are going to be great on TV. You are really
good.
Ms. Pressley. I am very much in order.
Ms. Mace. No, baby, you are not. No, baby, you are not. You
are not in order. You are out of order.
Ms. Pressley. You are not the----
Ms. Mace. Goodbye. You are done. Mr. Chairman, is my 5
minutes----
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. Are we good here? Mr. Chairman, thank you. As I
listen to the witnesses answer questions today, I am struck by
the truly breathtaking amount of fraud, the scope and scale
perpetrated against the American people by Somalians in
Minnesota, screeching Democrats like you just heard at our
witnesses. Democrats on this Committee do not want to talk
about Minnesota fraud because Minnesota fraud is Democrat
fraud.
You are going to make a great host on MSNBC. You are going
to be great.
And this is a cover up, I mean, the very definition of
cover up. And so, while we are still trying to understand the
scale of the fraud, it appears that the amount of fraud we are
talking about could exceed the size of GDP in Somalia, the size
of its economy is what we are talking about, so let that sink
in, the amount of fraud we are talking about.
My first question is to Mr. Ballou, this afternoon. Should
Somalians in Minnesota be required to speak English? They are
citizens.
Mr. Ballou. One, I just----
Ms. Mace. Yes or no?
Mr. Ballou. I am here for----
Ms. Mace. Should they be required to speak English if they
are American citizens?
Mr. Ballou. I think that question is really inappropriate.
Ms. Mace. Should they--it is not inappropriate. This is the
United States of America. Do you speak English? Should
Americans speak English? Citizens speak English? Yes or no?
Mr. Min. Point of inquiry. Is English the official language
of the United States? It is a question----
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, I am being interrupted again by
another----
Chairman Comer. It is not a valid parliament inquiry.
Ms. Mace. I would like to reclaim my time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Min. Is it not a citizenship requirement?
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, I would like to reclaim my time.
Mr. Min. She is asking the witness.
Ms. Mace. That seems to be a popular theme today.
Chairman Comer. That is not a valid inquiry.
Ms. Mace. Women have the right to speak in this Committee.
Conservative women have a right to speak here and not be
interrupted.
Chairman Comer. A day late and a dollar short. Ms. Pressley
has already got that MSNBC slot.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, I would like to reclaim my time.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. I believe I have lost, like, ten seconds there.
Chairman Comer. Okay. We will give you ten seconds.
Ms. Mace. Okay. My next question is should Somalians who
committed fraud be denaturalized and deported, Mr. Ballou?
Mr. Ballou. Again----
Ms. Mace. Yes or no?
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. I am not sure that is an
appropriate question because the majority of Somalian
Minnesotans are citizens.
Ms. Mace. If you commit fraud in this country and you are
here from Somalia, you do not believe they should be
denaturalized and deported? How much fraud would it take for
you to want to denaturalize and deport someone who committed
fraud in this country? How much?
Mr. Ballou. Again----
Ms. Mace. A billion, $9 billion? $19 billion? What would it
take for you?
Mr. Ballou. Most Somali Minnesotans are citizens.
Ms. Mace. Right. And the ones that committed fraud, the
question was, if you understand English, should be--those who
committed fraud, should they be denaturalized and deported, the
Somalians who are here, the ones that cannot speak English?
Mr. Ballou. Yes, so under U.S. law----
Ms. Mace. Okay. My next question for you.
Mr. Ballou. Can I please finish the question?
Ms. Mace. No, you cannot, because you are not answering the
question. My next question is--this is yes or no. If you marry
your brother and you commit immigration fraud, should you be
denaturalized and deported?
Mr. Ballou. Again, that----
Ms. Mace. If you commit immigration fraud, yes or no?
Mr. Ballou. Again, that question seems really
inappropriate, and if I can get back to the question----
Ms. Mace. You cannot answer my question, so that is
probably more inappropriate. Can you name one significant
contribution to Minnesota from a Somali immigrant who cannot
speak English?
Mr. Ballou. Absolutely yes, but again, this is----
Ms. Mace. You did not name one. All right. So, my next
questions are going to be for Hon. Ms. Robbins. Good afternoon.
Thank you all for being here today. I heard some discussion
earlier about Al-Shabaab and the discovery that you believe
some of this money that was defrauded the U.S. Government went
to Al-Shabaab. Is that correct? Did I hear that right?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. It has been proven.
Ms. Mace. How much money are we talking about?
Ms. Robbins. You know, we do not have an amount, so there
has been specific cases where it has been charged where we have
an amount, but then of the millions that go to Somalia over the
years in remittances, a portion of that we understand is taken
as sort of a tax or, you know, corruption by Al-Shabaab when it
enters the country.
Ms. Mace. Can you explain to us who Al-Shabaab is.
Ms. Robbins. It is a terrorist organization in Somalia.
Ms. Mace. And they are affiliated with Al Qaeda. Is that
right?
Ms. Robbins. My understanding is they are.
Ms. Mace. I am on the Director of National Intelligence
(DNI) website where it tells me that since 2014 Al-Shabaab has
killed more U.S. citizens than any other Al Qaeda affiliate,
and as of 2025, Al-Shabaab, this group, is Al Qaeda's
wealthiest component. Can you believe that?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Ms. Mace. And that American tax dollars, through Minnesota,
through Governor Tim Walz, who shamefully had to resign from
his reelection the other day, thank you to the young YouTuber
Nick Shirley, this is the kind of thing that was happening in
Minnesota. So, I praise the Republicans who are here today from
the Minnesota State Legislature exposing this fraud. And then,
Ms. Robbins, when do you think Tim Walz became aware of the
fraud?
Ms. Robbins. I think he has been aware of it since the
beginning. This was a huge issue in our state in the year he
ran for Governor and the OLA reports came out first identifying
the childcare fraud in March and April 2019 when he was in the
first months of his term.
Ms. Mace. Was Keith Ellison in on it, too, knowledgeable?
The Catholic turned Muslim guy in Minnesota?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. They were all newly in office, and this
was very public knowledge in Minnesota.
Ms. Mace. What role do you think Tim Walz and Keith Ellison
played--his Administration in delaying investigations into the
fraud?
Ms. Robbins. So, I have outlined several things where they
stopped our ability to strengthen internal controls and they
also shut down the criminal investigations by the OIG and DHS.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. I do have
two articles, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to ask unanimous
consent.
Chairman Comer. Proceed.
Ms. Mace. This one on FoxNews.com, ``Minnesota Fraud Probe
Will Expand to Other States,'' and then on House.gov,
``Legislators Blast DHS for Revelations that it had Contracts
with Feeding Our Future Fraudsters.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes--does somebody else
seek recognition? The Chair recognizes Ms. Ansari.
Ms. Ansari. Mr. Chair, I would like to start with a UC
request. An article from The Washington Post titled, ``Trump
Amplifies Conspiracy Theories on Killing of Minnesota
Lawmaker.'' As we know, the President shared a video.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you. So, I want to start with this
question for the lawmakers here from Minnesota. As you know,
Donald Trump has been posting these conspiracy theories about
the linking Governor Walz to the killing of your former
Speaker, and insinuating that Governor Walz had something to do
with it. Can you please raise your hand if you think this is an
appropriate action by the President of the United States. Raise
your hand, please.
Ms. Robbins. I am not doing a raise your hand. I am happy
to comment on it.
Ms. Ansari. Sure. Is it appropriate for the President to do
that?
Ms. Robbins. So, the person who murdered our colleague,
Speaker Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark, had in his----
Ms. Ansari. Answer the question. Do you think it is
appropriate for the President of the United States----
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. In his vehicle, evidence saying
he thought Tim Walz----
Ms. Ansari [continuing]. To cause violence against a
sitting Governor.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. Was ordering him to do it. I know
the facts will come out in the case and we need to be
respectful of the Hortman family and we need to let this play
out in the courts.
Ms. Ansari. That is unacceptable and it is inappropriate to
the highest degree for the President of the United States to be
sharing conspiracy theories that are obviously going to lead to
violence directed at Governor Tim Walz.
Now moving on to the issue here today, we all care deeply
about combating waste, fraud, preventing corruption, and
holding bad actors accountable. Unfortunately, this country has
seen an unprecedented avalanche of such abuse in the past year,
all stemming from the Trump Administration, the most corrupt
and the most wasteful administration in American history. It is
truly amazing that the Majority moves so quickly to hold
basically an emergency hearing on the situation in Minnesota
without ever one time having held a hearing on the national
crisis that is the Trump criminal enterprise being run out of
the White House. I do not even know where to begin.
Maybe the Republican Majority would be interested in
holding a hearing on the $50,000 cash bribe that border czar
Tom Homan received from FBI undercover agents in a Cava bag. Or
how about a hearing on the $400 million bribe that Donald Trump
presented by multi-billion-dollar companies in the form of the
White House ballroom that Donald Trump seems most obsessed
with? Do Republicans have any interest in holding a hearing on
that corruption scandal? Or the fraudsters and the criminals
that Donald Trump has pardoned? He freed George Santos,
convicted of theft of public funds. He pardoned Paul Walczak
convicted of millions of dollars in tax fraud after Walczak's
mother raised money for Trump's campaign.
He released the former President of Honduras sentenced to
45 years for flooding the United States with oceans of cocaine.
And these are just a few examples. I have not even brought up
DOGE and Elon Musk corruptions, Trump's firing of Inspectors
General who are in place to root out fraud, and career U.S.
attorneys who are doing the bidding of Donald Trump and
prosecuting his personal and political enemies. Is there any
interest in holding an oversight hearing on any of those
issues?
Now, I want to talk about one specifically appalling
instance of blatant corruption in the Trump White House
reported by The New York Times that the Republican Majority has
shown literally zero interest in investigating. This is
regarding World Liberty Financial, the cryptocurrency company
founded in 2024 by Eric Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Alex Witkoff,
and Zack Witkoff, among others. If those names sound familiar,
it is because the company is a joint project by the Trump and
Witkoff families--Steve Witkoff being Trump's special envoy in
the Middle East.
You may think that the President's financial interests in a
secretive cryptocurrency exchange may be bad enough, but it
gets so much worse than that. Emirati investment firm MGX
invested $2 billion in the Trump-Witkoff crypto business
personally enriching the sitting President of the United
States, his family, and Witkoff as a White House employee.
This is at the same time that Witkoff is an envoy to the
Middle East. He is the one negotiating with the Emiratis as an
official Representative of the U.S. Government.
While Witkoff and his sons were negotiating this private
crypto deal, Steve Witkoff was also in charge of negotiating
with the very same officials as a U.S. official to give the
Emiratis something they desperately wanted from us: highly
advanced and specialized computer chips.
To make the corruption even more explicit, just after the
crypto deal went through, Donald Trump gave his go ahead for
the transfer of hundreds of thousands of advanced chips to the
Emiratis despite the extremely concerning national security
implications. It is perhaps one of the largest and most obvious
corruption schemes in United States history implicating a
foreign government, paying off the President of the United
States and the White House to the tune of literally billions of
dollars in exchange for sensitive U.S. technologies. So, please
let the Republicans spare us with their feign concerns about
waste, fraud, and corruption. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Fallon from Texas.
Mr. Fallon. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
We are here today in this hearing because there is this
damning overwhelming evidence of massive industrial scale fraud
occurring in Minnesota right now and has been going on for
years. This is a huge story, and while many want to ignore it,
deflect from it, or be masters of obfuscation, which we have
seen here today, this should be a page one front and center
above the fold headline for media outlets across the country,
but it is not. And I think it is very interesting. ABC, NBC,
CBS, you can find 74 stories today run before you even get a
hint of this scandal. This should be a headline, and
unfortunately, it is a back-page fine print.
Still, as bad as the network's coverage, albeit, you know,
it is ludicrously abysmal, it is better than CNN. This very
morning CNN ran 51 stories on its website, including such
riveting breaking news articles such as dogs that are trained
to sniff mold, a flock of gay sheep, K-Pop's newest release
entitled Demon Hunters, inside glimpse of P Diddy Combs' prison
cell, and Chinese robots playing soccer, but nary a mention of
the tens of billions of dollars of American taxpayer money that
has been stolen from honest folk in America by scumbag thieves.
This is the Oversight Committee. We should have one
overriding emotion, whether it is Republican or Democrat. We
should all be outraged that crooks and thieves and dirt bags
are robbing the American people. So, I was very curious to see
how the Democrats would play today. Would they expose this
fraud and be willing to work with us? Or would they go to their
playbook of Donald Trump bad--and when we were in DOGE, it was
Elon Musk and billionaires bad--and they did not--they have not
really disappointed. January 6 as well has been mentioned. Has
nothing to do with what we are talking about today.
The Ranking Member's opening comments even bizarrely talked
about Presidential pardons and he railed against POTUS. It has
nothing to do with the matter at hand, but for the record, Joe
Biden issued 250 percent more pardons and commutations than
Donald Trump. In fact, 2,545 more.
Again, back to the matter. This money has been stolen
systemically by a gang of thieves while the very people charged
with the oversight, mainly the Walz Administration, have been
complicit. They have looked the other way. And the Democrats
did not disappoint either with isms and phobes, quotes like
bigotry and hatred, and we are a hypocritical witchhunt, and
then they were taking the hero, Nick Shirley, trying to make
him a villain.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into the record an
article. ``It's Not Racist to Notice Somali Fraud.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Fallon. 98 defendants that have been charged thus far
in this case, and I think it will end up being hundreds, 85 of
them happen to be of Somalian descent. It is just a fact,
despite how unfortunate and inconvenient these truths may be to
leftists. The Assistant U.S. Attorney Joe Thompson thinks that
this fraud can equate to maybe $9 billion. The entire Federal
budget of the country of Somalia is $1.2 billion.
Medicaid fraud does exist in all 50 states, but uncovering
it aggressively clearly is not a blue-state priority. If you
talk to any expert, I was in the state legislature for eight
years, they will tell you objectively that no matter where it
is, about 10 to 20 percent of all Medicaid spending is
fraudulent. In the State of New York, they spent $96 billion,
so did they recover in fraud $9.6 billion, $960 million? No. It
was a pittance. It was six one hundredths of one percent was
recovered. In the State of Minnesota, $18 billion. It was eight
one hundredths of one percent recovered.
Representative Robbins and the other reps, thank you for
coming. Thank you for your courage. You know you are going to
be, you know, smeared and I am not going to ask you where is
your hand? We are going to have a conversation. Okay? When,
Representative Robbins, when you first uncovered this titanic
fraud, what was the reaction and actions taken by the Walz
Administration or Democratic colleagues? Was it working hand in
hand to create synergy and offer full support and help to
unmask this fraud, or did you face significant headwinds and
fierce pushback to the point of opposition?
Ms. Robbins. Throughout our hearings, they would either
deny or deflect or say oh, they have handled it or they are new
on the job and they do not know. So, those were the answers and
the tenor of our hearing. I provided documents to them
outlining, as I said in February, of 72 childcare centers I
thought they should look at. They have not done it. I have sent
six FOIA requests, or data requests, that have not been
responded to, so they have not been good partners in rooting
this out.
Mr. Fallon. So, block votes Minnesota in 2016 it was so
close that I think Hillary Clinton won the state by about
44,000 votes, but if you have blocked 50,000 you can rely on in
Minneapolis, that is rather helpful to win an election in
Minnesota. But you know what, Mr. Chairman? Our Democratic
colleagues, whether it be in Minnesota or here on this
Oversight Committee, they will eventually lear. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes Ms. Simon--or Mr. Bell from Missouri.
Mr. Bell. Thank you, Mr. Chair, Ranking Member, and our
witnesses for being here today. I believe in protecting our
social services and recognize the need for comprehensive
legislation that ensures transparency in the collection and use
of Federal funds to support these critical programs that serve
our communities in need. The resources provided through social
services ensure the welfare of the everyday person and family,
and these resources and individuals deserve to be protected.
These protections should come at all times, not just when
politically beneficial.
What we are witnessing from President Trump and this
Administration is an attempt to use social services and the
welfare of the American people as pawns to promote their
political agenda. Instead of caring for the challenges of the
average person, this Administration has deprived them of the
very things that the President promised, which is affordable
healthcare, housing, and relief from the rising cost of living.
Through rolling back essential healthcare affordability,
cutting funding for assistance programs, implementing harmful
tariffs, and advancing legislation such as the one big ugly
bill, the Administration's actions have ultimately caused more
harm than good for the American people.
Reports show that since taking office, President Trump has
raised the average cost of living. Health insurance costs have
risen by hundreds of dollars for the average person with
insurance plans increasing by more than 20 percent. Housing
costs remain at an all-time high. And everyday grocery items
show a steady increase with prices rising by 15 to 20 percent.
We cannot pick and choose when to care for the American
people. The actions of this Administration show a pattern. They
first target our most vulnerable communities, and then gut the
very resources to help them. Today, it is our Somali
communities and our childcare assistance. Tomorrow, it could be
your communities and the resources you and your family rely on
for well-being.
At its core, this is about the well-being of the American
people. If we truly cared about those we have sworn to
represent, we would be working to dismantle all the challenges
they face, not just the ones that serve political interest.
Mr. Ballou, President Trump has recently made comments on
efforts to freeze childcare funding in California, Colorado,
Illinois, and New York. Would these actions benefit or harm
children and families?
Mr. Ballou. Oh, of course they are going to harm it.
Mr. Bell. President Trump has fired thousands of employees
across critical departments and has issued executive order
14356 restricting agencies from filling vacant positions or
creating new ones unless approved under the order or required
by law. Can you speak to how these actions could harm the
government's ability to root out waste, fraud, and abuse?
Mr. Ballou. Absolutely. So, you know, it is going to make
it harder both to administer these services and then to
identify fraud in the first place. One of the things that I am
particularly concerned about is to go after fraud, one of the
easiest ways to do it is to prosecute tax crimes, you know. The
challenge that we have got right now is the Administration has
announced a plan to disband the tax division of the Department
of Justice entirely, and that is going to make it much harder
to prosecute these sorts of crimes.
Mr. Bell. And can you speak from your work as a Federal
prosecutor on how President Trump's actions have contradicted
his promises to the American people.
Mr. Ballou. Well, to the extent that this Administration
says that it cares about waste, fraud, and abuse, you know, it
seems like that is a selective care. You can look at cases like
Paul Walczak who, you know, was convicted of fraud and withheld
$10 million to his own employees in nursing homes. His mother
attended a $1 million a plate fundraiser with the President and
Mr. Walczak was quickly pardoned.
This has happened literally dozens of times where favored
defendants either had their prosecutions dropped or were
pardoned entirely.
Mr. Bell. Okay. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair
recognizes Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin.
Mr. Grothman. Sure. I am sorry, we had another briefing in
the building, so I do not want to go over past things, but
during your initial testimony, Ms. Rarick, you talked about
people being threatened who are whistleblowers. Do you know who
those people were? Were they like people who made money off of
this, political operatives? You know, could you elaborate on
that a little?
Ms. Rarick. Yes, thank you. So, the people that were doing
the threatening were the supervisors and directors within the
state agencies.
Mr. Grothman. So, state employees were threatening--
physically threatening whistleblowers.
Ms. Rarick. They were saying things like, what happens if
you lose your home, right? Because if you lose your job, you
lose your home. They had pictures in their personnel files of
their own homes and their cars. They asked where their children
went to school, and where their bus stop was, so there was
direct threats and indirect threats.
Mr. Grothman. Okay. Were any of these people brought to
justice or this is just the way they deal with things in
Minnesota?
Ms. Rarick. You know, it is an interesting thing within the
Walz Administration. Those people were promoted.
Mr. Grothman. He just defines evil, doesn't he? Almost the
Vice President of the United States. There is a good book out
there called the Tragedy of American Compassion, and in it,
they went over the history of welfare and whether it should be
done by the state or done privately, and they pointed out the
danger that certain nefarious politicians would always want
more welfare because they were buying votes. Do you, either one
of you, on the political realm of things feel that perhaps a
motive for all the crookedness is, given the size of government
today, the importance to win elections? Were they motivated a
little bit by getting votes of groups of people? Because this
is a danger to our--we are not a democracy, of course, but it
is a danger to our form of government.
Ms. Rarick. So, I will answer really quickly, and then I
will pass it over to Representative Hudson. Just really
quickly, the caveat to this, which is so bizarre in Minnesota,
is the fact that state employees, by and large, are Democrats
and they vote Democrat. And the Walz Administration, including
Flanagan and his former chief of staff, Schmitter, were so
brutal that these former Democrat employees want nothing to do
with the Democrat party anymore in Minnesota because they have
been treated so horrifically.
Mr. Hudson. What is so sinister about this is that you are
right, that it absolutely is for electoral benefit and
political benefit, but it is sold to one half of the
population, and to the independents and to the conservatives as
we are giving people a hand up, we are going to help people who
are in need, we are going to give them a temporary way back
into working life, but they have set up an industry that was
perpetual where people just stay where they are at.
Mr. Grothman. Right. So, there is really an electoral
incentive to make sure people do not get out of poverty. I will
give you another question. I used to be in the state
legislature myself in Wisconsin, and I know that when you put
together your budget, you have Fed funds, unlike money that,
you know, Wisconsin was getting in through our own income or
sales tax.
Insofar as the legislature's claim with Fed funds, you are
not exactly as maybe careful with every dollar that is flowing
through, and I am trying to think what we can do to prevent
this, because you are always going to have given political
parties who think they can benefit from government largesse,
and I think government, by its nature sometimes, is a little
sloppy. Do you think that Minnesota government would be a
little bit more careful here if, on the various programs, and
it varies from program to program, but if the state had to pick
up 10 or 15 or 20 or 30 percent of program so that they had
skin in the game?
Ms. Robbins. Thank you, sir. Yes, in a lot of these
programs, the state does have skin in the game, so many of
them, Minnesota roughly, has a 50/50 Medicaid match, so many of
them, it is Federal tax dollars, but it is also state tax
dollars, so we are paying for it twice for our state tax
dollars and then when we pay our Federal.
Mr. Grothman. Right. I know. I think Wisconsin, when I was
there, was about a 60/40 match with the Feds picking up 60. And
that came into play, but I gather there are some programs on
here that maybe the state matches zero. Is that accurate?
Ms. Robbins. I would have to look at each program. I do not
know for sure.
Mr. Grothman. Okay. I will ask you just as state
legislators and, you know, different state legislators look at
this question differently. Do you think, as a country, on some
of these programs we should be asking some of the programs that
are 100 percent Fed-funded now would be better off if they were
maybe 70 percent Fed-funded or 75 percent Fed-funded so the
states that have a little bit more of a skin in the game? I
will put it that way.
And, a concern I would have insofar as the programs with
the state is picking up nothing, really the incentive is to
have more graft, because you just bring in Fed funds for the
state.
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir. So, we need to make sure that states
have skin in the game so that they administer the programs
properly, because otherwise, their incentive is to draw down
more Federal money, more Federal money to take the burden off
state taxpayers. But we are all taxpayers, so somebody is
paying. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Mr. Grothman. Right. And not just no such thing as a free
lunch. It encourages state legislators to look the other way,
because you just bring in that money into the state. I kind of
felt that way about Medicaid. Thanks.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman's time is expired. I am
sorry, Glenn, the time is expired on that.
Mr. Grothman. Okay.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes--who is next? Ms.
Simon.
Ms. Simon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent
to enter into the record a January 6, 2026, article from The
New York Times, ``Health Department to Freeze $10 Billion in
Funding to Five Democratic States.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Simon. Thank you, sir.
I appreciate us having this conversation, and I do
apologize to our witnesses, being in the last briefing took us
out of this space, but you coming here to provide us some
opportunity to discuss this is important. Because I think it is
true we have to recognize that fraud is fraud, and theft is
theft, and anybody, and I say anyone who takes away food out of
the mouths of children, who denies childcare to women,
particularly young women who are going to school and working
and doing everything right, who need a little hand up. I do not
know who in here has had to walk their baby to childcare and go
to school full-time and work full-time as a young mom? I know I
did. And I know that I received, but 27 years ago, childcare
stipends, so we can be mad at the criminals in every state,
including your state, who took resources from children.
But I also want to go back to the unanimous consent that I
just talked about. I think we do not have to go too far back,
maybe two days, to recognize that the President of the United
States and the Administration is halting billions of dollars
now, billions of dollars to childcare providers and centers
around this country. In fact, I have a story that we just
received in my office. We heard today that there needs to be
accountability, but what about accountability to a young woman
that we talked to today in our office who was told by her
childcare center, and she is going to school full-time at the
local community college, that the President of the United
States will be halting all funding, and within six weeks she
may not have an opportunity to continue her studies, because
guess what? There is a party in power that wants to punish the
poor, not just in Democratic states, but all over the country:
the reducing of SNAP benefits, the shocking taking away of
resources from sick children, the halting--the halting--and I
will say it again, the stopping of clinical trials for sick
babies.
What we will do, as Democrats, is acknowledge that fraud is
fraud. What we will not do is allow a conversation to go on to
problematize immigrants in this country writ large.
Can you imagine a society where we took the wrong of a
small few and relegated that wrong to a whole community? Well,
that is what we are doing here today, not just in Minnesota,
but now accusing thousands and thousands of childcare providers
all over the country before they get their day in court,
proposing that they, in fact, should not be taking care of kids
across the country. I think it is shocking.
This story that I want to end my quick testimony with:
Nancy Harvey, she is a childcare provider in Oakland,
California, where I represent a beautiful constituency. She is
in my congressional district. Nancy has been a long-term
childcare provider, an advocate for early care and education
for our babies, no matter who their parents vote for--services
that we know that are critical for every child--every child.
Collective punishment is what the folks across the aisle
want to do. We know it is wrong, it is reckless. And the Trump
Administration, we believe, must immediately reverse course so
that families have access to vital Federal funds that they are
entitled to.
Because you have a party that says they want everyone to
work in this country. You want everyone to do their fair share.
And yet, because we are so angry at a small, few folks who in
fact broke the law, that we want to create a collective
punishment for all poor people, working families, who are
trying to do their best.
I do not have any questions, because they have been
answered. This is a politic of cruelty. This is a politic of
anti-family. This is a politic of anti-poverty.
And for someone who grew up in poverty, I know how it feels
when you wait and wait and wait to just get a chance to do
better, and folks who have never met you, talked to you,
believed in you, or loved you are telling you, you are not
worth it. That is what this Administration is doing to millions
of children because of this halting of funding.
And I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Higgins from Louisiana.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Robbins and Mr. Hudson, Ms. Rarick, you are all members
of the Minnesota State legislature. Is that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Higgins. And, Ms. Robbins, you are the Chair of the
Fraud Prevention Oversight Committee. Is that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Mr. Higgins. And, Mr. Hudson and Ms. Rarick, you are
members of that Committee as well, correct?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir.
Ms. Rarick. That is correct.
Mr. Higgins. All right. So, you three, collectively,
America should clearly understand, you have an excellent
perspective of what is going on inside Minnesota and
specifically in regards to the fraud that we are investigating
and discussing today. Is that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Mr. Hudson. Yes.
Mr. Higgins. Okay.
So, we have a particular community, a Somali community, in
Minnesota that has stunning percentages that are participating
in government programs where they are drawing a lot of money,
big money--this has been discussed and revealed and reported
and is factual.
You have a tremendous amount of criminal fraud taking place
that one of my colleagues--the gentleman from the other side of
the aisle mentioned transparency. I would argue that, from a
regular American's perspective, it is quite transparent that
something criminal is going on when you have billions of
dollars disappearing into childcare centers with no children in
them and you have a tremendous transfer of wealth into a
relatively small immigrant community.
You have $9 billion--that is $9,000 million--dollars
missing in the last few years that is alleged to be
fraudulently stolen. You have--they are sending money--the
Somali community in Minnesota is sending money, big money,
overseas. They are contributing money, big money, to Democrat
candidates and elected officials.
The Democratic political machine in Minnesota has benefited
from this criminal network of Somali immigrants who have
systematically stolen billions of dollars of Federal charitable
money, essentially. The good lady, my colleague, you know,
clarified this is money designed for poor folk that need a hand
up, and we generally want that to happen in America in an
effective manner.
So, this is the scenario that we are looking into today.
Have I summed it up fairly well, Ms. Robbins?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir. And I would just like to add----
Mr. Higgins. Before you add--Mr. Hudson, is this an
effective summary, sir?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir, it is.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you.
Ms. Rarick?
Ms. Rarick. Yes.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you.
So, from the perspective of members of the Fraud
Investigative Committee of the Minnesota State legislature, we
have a large criminal network with high percentages of
participation in that criminal network from the Somali
community in Minnesota. That community has tremendous influence
within the political arena, specifically within the Democrat
political arena, in Minnesota. The Democrat political machine
has been covering for this criminal network.
And here we go to Governor Walz's involvement here, which
is shocking to me, quite frankly, because I have been friendly
with Governor Walz for many years. I served with him here.
But can you discuss for me the Governor's Administration's
involvement in intimidation and oppression and retaliation
against whistleblowers?
Ms. Robbins, have you had conversations with whistleblowers
who have been treated like that by the Walz Administration?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, I have.
Mr. Higgins. And can you tell us about that? Without naming
the person or revealing stuff that is secret, tell us how that
retaliation would happen.
Ms. Robbins. So, it happens in a variety of ways. They are
demoted or reassigned, or they are told that they could lose
their job and then their house or their pension or their
retirement benefits or not qualify for unemployment. So, it
is----
Mr. Higgins. Well, that is very serious--that is a very
serious allegation. I would say that is criminal retaliation.
Mr. Hudson and Ms. Rarick, have you seen similar?
Mr. Hudson. I would defer to Representative Rarick.
Ms. Rarick. Yes. So, Representative Robbins and, once in a
while, Representative Hudson have had multiple conversations
with whistleblowers, and that is exactly what they said to us,
especially in a face-to-face meeting in Saint Paul. That is
exactly what they said.
Mr. Higgins. Unbelievable.
Mr. Chairman, my time has expired, but this leans into the
criminal spectrum, sir. I yield.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Walkinshaw from Virginia.
Mr. Min. I think I was here first, but----
Chairman Comer. They told me Walkinshaw.
Mr. Walkinshaw. I am happy to defer.
Chairman Comer. I am just doing what the Democrat staff
says. Walkinshaw is next.
Mr. Walkinshaw. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Let me just start with something simple I think we are all
agreed upon today: Fraud is real, fraud is wrong, and fraud
should be prosecuted, period. And those who stole taxpayer
dollars in Minnesota or anywhere else should face the full
force of the law.
But what we are seeing today and the premise of this
hearing is selective outrage about fraud. Because if my
Republican colleagues actually cared about stopping fraud, they
would not be defending the one President in modern history who
is systematically tearing down the institutions designed to
prevent it, the one President in history who has pardoned
fraudster after fraudster after fraudster.
But Donald Trump did not just pardon those convicted of
fraud; he has gone after the people whose job it is to find
fraud. He fired the independent Inspector General at the State
Department. He fired the independent Inspector General of the
Intelligence Community. He removed the acting Inspector General
at Health and Human Services in the middle of a pandemic as
massive emergency funds were going out the door. He pushed out
the Defense Department IG.
And why has Trump gone after these independent Inspectors
General? Simple: In each case, they were investigating his or
his Administration's misconduct and fraud.
Donald Trump's approach to fraud is to fire the referees
and then say that the game is clean because no one blows the
whistle. And he has not stopped with IGs. He has repeatedly
attacked prosecutors, law enforcement, and career public
servants who investigated misconduct that was politically
inconvenient for him. He has turned oversight and fraud
prevention into a Donald Trump loyalty test. That is not
draining the swamp.
So, forgive me if I find it difficult to take seriously
lectures about fraud from people who have cheered while the
most corrupt President in modern history has dismantled
protection after protection against fraud. You do not get to
scream ``Fraud!'' on Tuesday after you fired the fraud
investigators on Monday.
We can protect taxpayers. We can root out corruption and
fraud. But we cannot do it by turning fraud into a political
weapon and ignoring the record of the person who did more than
anyone to weaken accountability.
Representative Robbins, in Minnesota, the Governor does not
have authority to pardon independently. There is a board, I
think, and the Governor is a member of that board with the
Attorney General and some others. But if that board in
Minnesota were to pardon individuals convicted of fraud,
clearly convicted of fraud, do you think a pardon like that
would damage your efforts to root out corruption and fraud in
Minnesota?
Ms. Robbins. It would really depend on the specifics of the
facts of the case and the law, and I----
Mr. Walkinshaw. So, you are not willing to say that?
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. I am not going to comment on a
hypothetical.
Mr. Walkinshaw. You are not going to say that pardoning
fraudsters would make it harder to prevent fraud in Minnesota?
You are not willing to say that today?
Ms. Robbins. I want to root out fraud and corruption and
make sure----
Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. People are prosecuted.
Mr. Walkinshaw. All right. You are not willing to say that.
You are comfortable with fraudsters being pardoned. You do not
think it would damage the work.
Ms. Robbins. I want everyone who has committed a crime to
be prosecuted and held accountable.
Mr. Walkinshaw. And pardoned?
Ms. Robbins. It would depend on the case. I do not
participate in the pardon process in Minnesota, but every case
is very unique, and every Governor and Attorney General should
look at the specifics.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay.
Mr. Ballou, can you just talk us through--I know this has
come up already--the firing of independent Inspectors General?
The intimidation of them, making it harder to do their jobs,
how does that impact fraud prevention and the prosecution of
fraud, from the perspective of a former prosecutor?
Mr. Ballou. One of the best investments that the government
can make is in its Inspectors General. Last year, IGs
identified an estimated $50 billion in savings either through
duplicative programs or for specifically criminal fraud.
The challenge that we have is, with, you know, 19 IGs being
fired, that work literally is not happening. And there is
evidence to suggest that at least some of them have been fired
specifically because they were going after enemies--or, allies
of this Administration.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
record a CNN article from February 11, 2025, ``USAID IG Fired
Day After Report Critical of Impacts of Trump Administration's
Dismantling of the Agency.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Burchett from
Tennessee.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think that it needs to be said that Governor Walz needs
to step down. Him saying he will stay on to investigate is like
O.J. Simpson saying he will investigate the murder of his ex-
wife. It just does not work out.
I have a question to the representatives.
And thank you all for being here. It is a tough gig. I did
that for many years.
Do you think that the Walz Administration suppressed fraud
and abuse in social service programs because they are afraid of
exposing Somali residents?
And just go down the line here.
Yes, ma'am?
Ms. Robbins. So, not only do we think that is what
happened, Mr. Burchett, but it is also what a Somali-American
investigator associated with the Bureau of Criminal
Apprehension said. He said in an article, ``Fraudsters have
also sought to exploit the burgeoning political power of the
Somali community and the feckless fear that establishment
politicians and state agencies show when confronted with
charges of racism and Islamophobia.'' This is from a Somali
Federal prosecutor--or, investigator.
Mr. Burchett. Sir?
Mr. Hudson. Indeed, it is not just a theory. We have the
recording of Keith Ellison meeting with defendants in the
Feeding Our Future case, where it was very explicit that the
motivation for keeping scrutiny off them was based on perceived
racism.
Mr. Burchett. Ma'am?
Ms. Rarick. From the mouth of a whistleblower: ``You appear
to be''--so this is what a whistleblower was told--``You appear
to be holding back these contracts because they are going to a
diverse community. It is not a good look.''
Mr. Burchett. Okay.
Do you think Somalians tied to these crimes should be
deported, ma'am?
Ms. Robbins. If they are not here legally, yes. If they are
citizens, they should go through the criminal justice process.
And then there might be other categories, but I would have to
better understand----
Mr. Burchett. I agree. So, some of these--I mean, some of
these folks are born here and then they are--or are
naturalized, so they would have the constitutional protection
thereof. So, yes, ma'am.
Sir?
Mr. Hudson. If there is any legal pathway to do so,
absolutely.
Mr. Burchett. Ma'am?
Ms. Rarick. So, you have got quite a big bucket of people,
right? You have got people that were born here. That is a
different situation. You have people that were naturalized.
Mr. Burchett. Right.
Ms. Rarick. And then those who are here illegally. So, you
have to treat each one completely separately, with different
paths.
Mr. Burchett. Ma'am, who is helping these folks navigate
this complex grant application process?
It seems to me that it is orchestrated. They surely have
got a go-to. We have always found that out in my dealings with
state government, there was always somebody in there, a
gatekeeper.
Ms. Robbins. Yes. My colleague Representative Hudson could
speak to it. There is sort of a cottage industry of Somali
consultants who help this.
Mr. Burchett. I bet there is.
Yes, sir?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, as I stated in my opening statement, I
have personally talked to two gentlemen who have worked as
consultants for multiple entities receiving government
benefits. And they do not believe they are doing anything
wrong. And by the letter of the law, they might be legally
acting, but they have created an industry out of benefits that
were intended to lift people up, not become a business.
Mr. Burchett. Do you want to add to that, ma'am?
Ms. Rarick. So, that is something that we have heard
repeatedly from whistleblowers and others, that there is, yes,
I would call it a cottage industry of people that, when you
land on our soil, that they are going to teach you all the
different ways to sign up for multiple social service programs.
And there is also that. So, they sign up for the max
amount, which is probably why--there is a report that just came
out on December 13 of last year that says that 81 percent of
Somalis were receiving some sort of welfare in Minnesota.
Mr. Burchett. If you do not know the answer to this, just
tell me. Do you have any knowledge or have heard any talk that
the Somalis are directing any of these funds to American U.S.
tax dollars to Al Shabaab terrorist organization?
Ms. Robbins. There have been past criminal convictions in
this. And, currently, we believe it is mostly happening
indirectly, as they send money to Somalia, that Al Shabaab
takes a cut.
Mr. Burchett. Do you all agree with that? You good with
that?
Do you think the design of the social service programs
incentivizes fraud and abuse?
Mr. Hudson. Absolutely. There is no doubt about it. When
you are willing to hand over a sack of money to somebody on the
assumption that they are going to provide a benevolent service
and then you never check to see if they actually did, obviously
you are going to invite fraud, waste, and abuse.
Mr. Burchett. Ma'am?
Ms. Rarick. Yes, absolutely. We just stood up a new program
that we will probably talk about in a little bit, which is the
paid family leave program. It was literally designed by
Democrats to have waste, fraud, and abuse on a grand scale.
Mr. Burchett. Okay.
I am going to be out of time. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
But I think America--we are sick of the hearings, we are
sick of all this. We need justice. We need convictions that
these folks are guilty. And that needs to happen. America is
sick of this, and it needs to happen.
Thank y'all so much, and thank you for your bravery.
Chairman Comer. Very well said.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Subramanyam.
Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am so glad that Committee Republicans finally want to
talk about fraud and corruption and misuse of Federal funds.
This Majority, though, has conveniently avoided this topic, but
let us talk about the fraud in this Administration.
And let us start with President Trump accepting a $400
million plane as a gift from Qatar, which the President
announced he would transfer afterwards to his Presidential
library--basically to himself. And then the President announced
a trillion-dollar economic agreement with a Qatar and a
security guarantee for them as well, an unprecedented one.
Next, Trump has also accepted hundreds of millions of
dollars in undisclosed amounts for his ballroom project,
including from companies who had civil and potentially criminal
charges that were then dropped against them by this
Administration.
And it is not just President Trump. Secretary Kristi Noem
has paid more than $200 million in DHS ad contracts last fall
and bypassed the normal competitive bidding process to award
some of the funds to a firm with deep ties to herself. And then
Secretary Noem also spent $170 million of taxpayer dollars on
new jets, including one for her own private travel.
Family members of the President have entered into $2
billion in business deals with the UAE Government and their
government officials, while the United States conveniently then
signed a major chips agreement with the UAE.
And then after his election, President Trump put $4 billion
and shares of his media company in a trust to be run by his
son. And then President Trump maintained ownership of his
business empire while letting his family run the day-to-day.
And then in September, Forbes estimated that President
Trump's memecoin tokens were worth $709 million and his World
Liberty Financial tokens were worth more than $338 million, but
we do not know exactly how that happened.
Then President Trump also stopped the enforcement of
foreign--and bribery and fraud so that we could have American
companies commit fraud abroad, as well, and not get prosecuted.
President Trump also has made hundreds of visits to his own
properties using taxpayer dollars, a lot of golfing included,
and used his Presidency for personal profit to those
properties. In 2019, the GAO reported a trip to Mar-a-Lago cost
over $3 million. And so, if you add that up, that is a lot of
taxpayer money being misused and a lot of fraud.
The interim U.S. attorney for D.C. ended prosecution of a
January 6 defendant after he represented that defendant in
private practice.
President Trump pardoned fraudster Trevor Milton, a former
CEO convicted of fraud in 2022 who, with the stroke of Trump's
pen, escaped paying the $600 million in restitution that
prosecutors argued he should pay to people who have invested in
his company.
According to The Washington Post, at least 20 people who
received clemency from Trump were given forgiveness for
financial penalties, totaling tens of millions of dollars.
And then President Trump pardoned Binance founder Changpeng
Zhao, a money launderer, after getting support for a family
crypto venture.
And then President Trump also pardoned CEO Andrew
Wiederhorn for stealing $47 million of his own money from his
own company, but had his case dropped after he donated to the
President.
And then President Trump also pardoned the founder of the
electric vehicle company Nikola, who was convicted of fraud and
donated $1.8 million to a political committee supporting
President Trump.
And prior to his confirmation, Secretary Hegseth's wife
owned thousands of dollars in defense stocks, including
companies that contract with the DOD. And DOD Secretary Hegseth
brought his wife, who has defense company investments, to
meetings with foreign defense officials at a NATO gathering
where Ukraine policy was discussed.
And from recently passed funding legislation, U.S. Senators
can claim over $500,000 in taxpayer dollars over phone-record
collections during the January 6 investigation. We just
commemorated the fifth anniversary of January 6.
And then border czar Tom Homan dodged FBI background checks
and accepted $50,000 from undercover agents acting as
businesspeople in exchange for government contracts. The DOJ
investigation of that was shut down by this Administration.
President Trump wrote on his social media platform Truth
Social, ``This is a great time to buy--DJT,'' less than four
hours before lifting the tariffs he imposed days earlier,
raising accusations of improprieties. I would say the
accusations are probably well-founded.
President Trump's FBI Director has reportedly used taxpayer
dollars to escort his girlfriend's friend home from partying in
Nashville.
RFK Jr., the Secretary, refused to fully cut ties to a
vaccine lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company while serving
as Secretary, arranging an arrangement that profits from the
suit would go to his son.
Saudi-funded golf tournaments moved events to Trump golf
courses, providing a financial windfall for President Trump and
his family as his Administration sets Middle East policy.
FBI Director Kash Patel refused to divest from stock
holdings in a company that controls a Chinese fast-fashion firm
accused of using forced labor and child labor, raising
questions about the extent to which he would enforce human-
trafficking laws.
President Trump's ``God Bless America Bible,'' which has a
$3 production cost and $60 tag per copy, are printed in China.
The Bible, however, is exempted from Trump's tariffs on China
due to an exemption for religious materials.
And I could keep going.
Tom Krause, the CEO of Cloud Software, was hired to work on
a payments system at the Treasury Department, raising questions
about competitive advantages for future contracts. A Cloud
Software subsidiary previously donated a million dollars to
Trump's inaugural fund.
And the first directive issued by the U.S. Department of
Energy's Secretary, Chris Wright, focused on advancing
geothermal energy, which benefits Fervo, in which his former
company, Liberty Energy, had invested $10 million in.
Commerce Secretary Lutnick----
Chairman Comer. The gentleman's time is expired. You are at
40 seconds over, and I have been cutting Members off.
Mr. Subramanyam. I have more.
Chairman Comer. You have what?
Mr. Subramanyam. I have more, but I will yield back.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
The Chair recognizes--and you can submit anything you want
to the record. We will put it in there.
The Chair recognizes----
Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Comer [continuing]. Ms. Boebert from Colorado.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
Representative Robbins, did your fraud prevention committee
raise formal concerns about suspected childcare fraud to DHS or
state leadership before Federal indictments were issued?
Ms. Robbins. So, the original Federal indictments came
before I was elected, back in 2015 or so. And then we thought
DHS had cleaned it up, and they did not. So, we did a hearing
last February 2025, and we provided them a list of childcare
facilities we thought they should check out. My understanding
is they have not.
And so, we are hoping that they will take this seriously
and go investigate, with onsite visits, what is going on in
these childcare facilities.
Ms. Boebert. And when you raised awareness, were the
Governor, Governor Tim Walz, and the Attorney General made
aware of these warnings?
Ms. Robbins. Oh, I am sure.
Ms. Boebert. Did the state leadership fail to act promptly?
I mean, it kind of sounds like they did, if you still have not
received any information regarding these warnings.
Ms. Robbins. Yes. We do not know that they took any action
with the list we gave them.
Ms. Boebert. And, Representative Robbins, what
recommendations from your committee were given and ignored?
Ms. Robbins. So, in general, we always try to look at
internal controls. And we have asked--I mean, it is not
complicated. We want them to go make sure recipients are
eligible, that providers are eligible, that services are
actually being provided.
Our staff has gone to many of these places, and, so, it is
not just the Nick Shirley video; our staff has gone and looked
at this. And there are literally no one there during business
hours. Some of the offices where we have the address are empty.
Like, there is no furniture.
So, they are not doing their job.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you.
Mr. Ballou, does the Department of Justice have more
resources to uncover fraud than a 20-year-old YouTuber?
Mr. Ballou. Yes, but those resources are declining.
Ms. Boebert. Are they still more than a 20-year-old
YouTuber with a cell phone camera?
Mr. Ballou. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, the primary office
that would be responsible for prosecuting public corruption,
which is what is being alleged today, has essentially been
decimated. Most of the attorneys----
Ms. Boebert. Okay.
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. Have been fired or left.
Ms. Boebert. But was it decimated when you were there? Was
there funding there then?
Mr. Ballou. Yes, so I----
Ms. Boebert. It was there then. So, why did the Department
of Justice, under the Biden Administration, ignore repeated
attempts to uncover this massive, fraudulent misuse of taxpayer
dollars?
Mr. Ballou. As you may recall, the indictment actually
happened during the Biden Administration.
Ms. Boebert. And what action has been taken in the state to
ensure that this is not happening? Because we just saw dozens
and dozens of centers that are receiving hundreds of millions
of dollars, collectively, that are not functionally
operational.
Mr. Ballou. Yes, well, in 2022, under the Biden
Administration, over 70 people were indicted for exactly this
scheme.
Ms. Boebert. So, Mr. Ballou, yes or no: A Medicaid program
with low barriers to entry and minimal reimbursement
requirements, that is something that would be highly vulnerable
to fraud if oversight is weak, correct?
Mr. Ballou. Exactly. And----
Ms. Boebert. Yes or no?
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. The challenge is that that
oversight----
Ms. Boebert. Thank you. Yes or no.
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. Is being cut further because of
the slashes.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you for your answer.
Mr. Ballou, yes or no: When a program projected at $2.6
million explodes to over $100 million annually, that is a
glaring red flag.
Mr. Ballou. The problem that we have is that all the
oversight at the Federal level for this is being cut.
Ms. Boebert. Yes or no, is that a red flag, when a $2.6
million program----
Mr. Ballou. The challenge that we have----
Ms. Boebert [continuing]. Explodes to over $100 million?
Yes or no?
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. Is the offices that are----
Ms. Boebert. Yes or no, sir?
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. Responsible for identifying those
red flags are being defunded.
Ms. Boebert. Mr. Ballou, yes or no: When the same
individuals or networks bill multiple Medicaid programs, that
indicates organized fraud.
Mr. Ballou. And the challenge that we have is that----
Ms. Boebert. Yes or no, does that indicate fraud, when you
are getting the same individuals and networks that are billing
multiple Medicaid programs?
Mr. Ballou. Precisely the offices that would identify that
are being defunded.
Ms. Boebert. As they should be.
Mr. Ballou, yes or no: Did the Biden Administration cover
this up for political reasons because uncovering fraud on this
massive scale would have hurt the 2024 Democrat Vice
Presidential candidate?
Mr. Ballou. Just so I understand, are you saying that the
offices that uncover fraud should be defunded?
Ms. Boebert. I am saying that these programs and the fraud
that is taking place should be defunded.
Mr. Ballou. My understanding is what you were just saying
is that the fraud programs need to be defunded.
Ms. Boebert. So, no, we need to uncover these, but----
Mr. Ballou. And the challenge that we have is that those--
--
Ms. Boebert [continuing]. These actual programs that are
ballooning to $100 million--and if you could get back to the
question I just asked. Was this covered up because you thought
it would hurt the 2024 Democrat Vice Presidential candidate?--
--
Mr. Ballou. The office that would investigate----
Ms. Boebert [continuing]. Governor Tim Walz? Yes or no?
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. That kind of alleged public----
Ms. Boebert. Yes or no?
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. Integrity fraud----
Ms. Boebert. Yes or no?
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. Has been defunded.
Ms. Boebert. In 2024, it was not defunded. And was this
covered up to protect a Vice Presidential candidate, yes or no,
Mr. Ballou?
Mr. Ballou. Prior to 2024, over 70 indictments were brought
under the Biden Administration.
Ms. Boebert. Mr. Ballou, was this covered up to protect a
political candidate?
Mr. Ballou. Once again, that office has been defunded. And
there were----
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Ballou. I am sorry that you are
not----
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. Over 70 indictments brought under
the Biden Administration.
Ms. Boebert [continuing]. Answering questions before this
Committee correctly.
Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Tlaib from Michigan.
Ms. Tlaib. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you all so much for being here.
I think, as someone who has served in a statehouse, I know
how important it is, no matter if there is a ``D'' or ``R''
next to, you know, any name of anybody that is in charge, to
make sure we root out any sort of fraud, scams, because we know
it hurts everyone.
But as a Muslim American, I have got to ask you all, as a
public servant, because--you know, Representatives Robbins,
Hudson, Rarick, like, do you believe every Somali in Minnesota
is engaged in fraud right now, yes or no?
You can start.
Ms. Robbins. No.
Mr. Hudson. No.
Ms. Rarick. Absolutely not.
Ms. Tlaib. Do you believe that Muslims are demons?
Ms. Robbins. No.
Mr. Hudson. No.
Ms. Rarick. Absolutely not. That is a ridiculous thing to
even say. I hope nobody says that.
Ms. Tlaib. Yes.
Well, I just think it is really important, as you all do
the job that you need to do, to also root out hate and divisive
language that put, you know--you can imagine a child listening
to that. You know what I mean? And they are seeing that. And I
am telling you, as somebody that grew up Muslim in America,
sometimes you are just listening to that and you feel other'ed,
you feel like you are less than, that maybe the things that are
being said are true.
And so, you know, Mr. Chair, I have to submit for the
record--this is, I know this is not your only source, I heard
you, but, you know, ``Unnamed Source in Viral Minnesota Somali
Fraud Video is Right-Wing Lobbyist Who Called Muslims
`Demons'.''
But why this is more disturbing--and I do not know if any
of you shared it--but I want you to know who shared it despite
this and all the falsehoods that my colleagues have already
highlighted in a very, very shameful way, that this video has
been shared widely and proudly by Attorney General Pam Bondi,
by FBI Director Kash Patel, by Vice President JD Vance, who
actually called the video, quote, ``far more useful journalism
than any of the winners of the 2024 Pulitzer Prizes.''
The video creator, Nick Shirley, has built this career,
right, on a lot of Islamophobia and dehumanization that I just
feel, as public servants, as you root out fraud--and you have
to--that you do not make it out that it is about the Somali
community. It is about maybe not having the checks and balances
and maybe, again, wanting to do that.
But I urge you all, because this is the same person that
also talked about a community I represent in the city of
Dearborn. And, again, there are children watching. And I say
this: that racist rhetoric, no matter faith or ethnicity,
against any of our neighbors is not going to prevent fraud.
Doing this will not prevent fraud.
We already saw, like, Trump Administration using this story
to pretext sending 2,000 Federal agents to target and harass
the Somali-American community. I mean, do you agree with that,
sending troops in?
Ms. Robbins. I do not think ICE agents are troops. And ICE
agents should be able to do their job anywhere in America.
Ms. Tlaib. I am so sorry. I meant Federal agents. You are
right. I meant Federal agents, ma'am.
Do you believe Federal agents should come in and--2,000
Federal agents should come into your state?
Ms. Robbins. I think ICE agents should be doing their job
anywhere in America. It is their jurisdiction, and if there are
criminals----
Ms. Tlaib. But that is not the response of the President.
So, if you----
Ms. Robbins. If there are criminals who need to be
deported----
Ms. Tlaib. I understand.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. They should be deported.
Ms. Tlaib. But that is not what is going to happen.
Representative Hudson?
Mr. Hudson. I absolutely welcome immigration enforcement in
the State of Minnesota.
Ms. Tlaib. Yes, but do you think it is really immigration
enforcement? Because they are racially profiling. They are
going to just stop people that look Somali or look Muslim or
ethnic and just harass them.
And I am telling you as somebody that, for the first time
ever, my mother, in 50 years being here--and the sweetest
woman. She would feed anybody. She does not care if you are a
Republican, Democrat, she would make sure you are not hungry
and fed. And she is carrying a passport for the first time in
her life here because she knows because she wears a hijab she
might be stopped by ICE agents.
Is that the kind of militarization--I know you will not get
stopped. But somebody like my mother and somebody like your
Somali-American neighbors in Minnesota will be stopped in a way
that is dehumanizing. They do it in front of kids. They do not
care.
And I am saying this to you and asking all of you: do your
job, but do not allow your job and what you are doing to be
utilized as a racist trope, that all Somali-Americans are
criminals, that Muslims are demons. It is incredibly dangerous.
And so, you know, Representatives Robbins, Hudson, Rarick,
you know, one of the things that--the collective punishment,
right? I mean, the fact that now I am seeing the Trump
Administration say, ``Okay, we are going to cut childcare and
social services to California, Illinois, New York, Minnesota,
Colorado.'' Like, is that really the answer? Is that going to
prevent fraud? Do you believe cutting 23,000 kids from
childcare--do you think that is going to prevent fraud?
Ms. Robbins. To my understanding, it is not being cut. If
they can document that the actual children are there and that
they have attendance records, they will get the funding. So,
this is a misnomer----
Ms. Tlaib. All right.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. Saying it is all going to be cut.
Ms. Tlaib. Okay.
Ms. Robbins. It is not true.
Ms. Tlaib. We will see.
Representative Hudson?
Mr. Hudson. I tend not to blame firemen for water damage
when they put out a fire.
Ms. Tlaib. Okay.
Mr. Hudson. And that is what is going on.
Ms. Tlaib. So, you are good with them cut--okay.
How about you?
Ms. Rarick. I believe in the due process of law. And so,
back to your comment about your dear mother----
Ms. Tlaib. Yes.
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. Because she wears a hijab and she
has to carry her passport. So, I think that every person has
value. Everyone is a child of God, right? And we may have a
different name, but here is the thing, is that they all deserve
respect.
Ms. Tlaib. Absolutely.
Ms. Rarick. They all deserve kindness, they all deserve the
process of law----
Ms. Tlaib. Absolutely.
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. And due process. And so----
Ms. Tlaib. And I will tell you----
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. That is what we believe in.
Ms. Tlaib. And I see it among my community. It is a very
diverse community. We are calling people on other, you know,
folks that are--no matter what their background is--because we
do not want any criminal activity or fraud, because we know it
hurts everybody. But I am asking all of you, as you do this,
your job, call out against the racist comments. Protect
everyone in Minnesota, no matter their faith or ethnicity.
Chairman Comer. The gentle----
Ms. Tlaib. So, be careful in sharing these--I am sorry,
Chairman. This is important.
Be careful, as you do your job, not to allow people that
you all are trying to root out fraud to be used as a ploy to go
after Muslims and Somali-Americans.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady's time has expired. Thank
you.
Before I recognize Mr. Cloud, Mr. Gill has a unanimous
consent request.
Mr. Gill. Sure. Yup. This is from the Minnesota Reformer.
``A Somali-American Former Investigator: Why You are Hearing
About Fraud in My Community.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now--do you have another one?
Mr. Gill. No, Mr. Chairman, just one.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Cloud from Texas for 5 minutes.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chairman.
And I appreciate you holding this hearing. It is important,
as you have mentioned at the outset, that we continue our work
to uncover waste, fraud, and abuse, and, especially in holding
this hearing, kind of bring some light to this issue that the
media--really, they were scooped. And so--in the sense that
they are having to cover this issue when really they should
have been the ones to investigate and reveal this is telling.
No doubt there is fraud everywhere. When you are spending
trillions of dollars, there are going to be pockets of fraud.
But one of the things that has been revealing this year as we
worked through the DOGE process is uncovering the extent of the
fraud, how it has been systemized, weaponized, and how it is--
we have really unveiled that it is the world's, history's,
largest money-laundering scheme.
Much of this should be a bipartisan issue to go after the
waste, fraud, and abuse, but what we found out is, much of the
taxpayer funding is going to uphold leftist organizations and
their campaign practices and the like.
What is particularly telling about this issue in Minnesota
is not the fact that there is waste, fraud, and abuse. No doubt
that is happening in a number of states, and we need to
continue the work to clean it up. But the way that this has
been systemized, institutionalized, and the corrupt and
corrosive nature and even criminal coercion that went on from
the Governor's office and his Administration is particularly
troubling.
I think it is notable that the Biden Administration was
aware of this even as they tried to sell the Harris-Walz
Administration on the American people. And perhaps that is, you
know, why we did not see this come to light as we should.
But, Representative Hudson, I appreciated something you
said in your testimony, in the sense that these--you said how
the structure of these programs creates incentives that
reliably produce the waste, fraud, and abuse across multiple
service areas regardless of the program or intent.
And this is kind of what we see oftentimes, that, you know,
for good intentions maybe, Congress upstands these programs.
Over the decades, what we have seen is they have expanded to
where many of them almost end up being a system of waste,
fraud, and abuse with a veneer of care and concern for people.
And our job in Congress is to help bring the tools to make sure
that that does not happen.
And so, the Ranking Member said, you know, where fraud
existed, we should look into it and we should hold people
accountable. What we see coming from the left a lot of times
is, they are fine with the reactionary--``We are fine in
bringing prosecutions after the fact because the money's
already gone out. We are fine with prosecuting people who do
ballot harvesting once the ballots are in the pot and we cannot
separate them.'' But it is far better for us to prevent it.
I would like to talk to--I will start with you, Mr. Hudson,
but if y'all want to jump in--what controls states should be
putting in, but really it comes down to us in saying, whatever
Federal dollars you are receiving, you should be getting these
controls in place.
So, could you speak to the institutionalization of this
fraud and the schemes that are in place and maybe list some
examples and then speak to some of the controls that you would
recommend that we take on legislatively to make sure states are
doing their job?
Mr. Hudson. It is a very big question, and I will try to be
concise.
So, I have not put a whole lot of thought into what
Congress should do, given my state legislative role, but I can
tell you that states are primarily responsible for the
administration of these programs--for setting up rules, for
engaging in verification and compliance. And so, what I imagine
Congress can do is provide either incentive or some form of,
for lack of a better term, punishment to states who fail to do
that properly.
Mr. Cloud. Currently, states are actually incentivized, in
a sense, to game the system against the American taxpayer.
Mr. Hudson. A hundred percent.
Mr. Cloud. Yes.
Mr. Hudson. Absolutely.
And so, the program in--the programs in Minnesota need to
be redesigned from top to bottom. I mean, there needs to be,
like, a demolition and a rebuild.
Because the way they are currently structured, I think most
Americans, when they think about benefit programs, they think
about, like, their neighbor and how they would help out their
neighbor. But that is not how these programs work. It is not
relational. It does not come with expectations or gratitude or
an incentive to make your life better. It is set up to create a
perpetual industry out of taking money from taxpayers.
Mr. Cloud. Yes, that is, that is troubling.
Would you like to speak to that?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. I think one of the most practical things
you can do is to require documentation from the recipient and
from the provider.
In Minnesota, most of these providers are set up--and the
recipients--based on attestation, and nobody then goes and
checks, are they really eligible? Are the services actually
being provided? We had the Housing Stabilization Program, they
estimate 90 percent of it was fraud. Nobody checked if services
were actually being provided.
And I think you could also require repayment to the feds if
there is fraud. And that would make states pay attention to
administration, if they had to repay the money if it was not
spent on the proper services.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you. Those are a few good tips. We will
hopefully stay in communication.
My time is up.
Chairman Comer. The Chair----
Mr. Cloud. I know we opened up a can of worms there that
could take another hour or two, but thank you, Chairman. I
yield back.
Chairman Comer. Thank you.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Min.
Mr. Min. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Appreciate today's hearing.
And I am deeply concerned about the allegations of fraud
that we are learning about around the disbursement of social
services funding in Minnesota. This is fraud of the worst kind.
It is literally taking food out of the mouths of hungry kids so
that people can enrich themselves.
And just for your clarification, I have spent--actually,
spent my career fighting fraud. My first job out of law school
was at the SEC. This was in the aftermath of another major set
of frauds, the Enron and WorldCom accounting scandals, which,
of course, were in the private sector, not the public sector.
In Congress, this has been my, just over a year at this
point, but I was happy to sponsor H.R. 1156, a Republican-led
bill that came before this Committee last year. And I think
that we need aggressive enforcement and accountability when it
comes to taxpayer dollars and their disbursement.
That being said, I have concerns about this hearing as well
as recent actions taken by the Trump Administration. And it is
hard for me not to look at this hearing and the context in
which it is taking place and not see this as a partisan and
racist hearing, and for the reasons mentioned by my colleague.
But we have not had other hearings when it comes to fraud
that takes place in Republican-led states. We have not had
hearings in this Committee, as far as I am aware, and on
another committee this year, as long as I have been in
Congress, that go after those who are not Somali-American.
And so, I hope you all can appreciate that by holding this
hearing in isolation of any other hearings around oversight or
fraud, that it looks like we are going after one community in
one state when we know it is rampant.
So, I guess, my first question to y'all--and you all can
raise your hand, or if you do not want to raise your hand, feel
free to not raise your hand, but--do you believe that fraud
only takes place in Democratic-led states?
Ms. Robbins. No.
Mr. Hudson. No.
Mr. Min. And do you believe that fraud only takes place in
Somali communities?
Mr. Hudson. No.
Ms. Rarick. Absolutely not.
Ms. Robbins. No.
Mr. Min. And would it surprise you to know that the
Congress has not done hearings on either frauds that have taken
place in Republican-led states or on frauds that have taken
place in non-Somalian communities----
Ms. Rarick. So----
Mr. Min [continuing]. This year, since I have taken
Congress, this Oversight Committee in particular, in this
session?
Ms. Rarick. The Minnesota legislature, we are literally
drowning in fraud.
Mr. Min. That was a yes/no question, so I am going to
reclaim my time, so thank you very much.
Ms. Rarick. And, so, we spend all of our time doing that.
Mr. Min. And so, I would just say that if this was a
serious hearing, if this was a more serious attempt at
oversight, we would be looking across the board.
And this is also hard to not take in the context of
President Trump's announcement, I think just yesterday, that he
would be--illegally, I would add--withholding funds for
childcare and other purposes from states led by Democratic
Governors, including not only Minnesota but my home state of
California as well as several others.
Kids are going to go hungry in my district, when we have
not seen evidence of any type of fraud on the scale we are
talking about in California, in Colorado, in Illinois. And yet
Donald Trump is withholding funds from those states. And so, it
looks like a very partisan effort here to go after blue states.
Ten billion dollars is being withheld--$10 billion. And we
already have struggling people right now trying to pay the
bills because of rising healthcare costs, inflation, et cetera.
It is cruel and vindictive.
It is also, I think, another example of the ways in which
President Trump and this Committee and this Republican-led
Congress look increasingly like they are weaponizing the
government to go after Democrats and people they perceive as
their political critics, rather than going out and trying to
address fraud in all ways, shapes, and forms.
We know, for example, that there have been massive frauds
that have been uncovered in places like Florida, Texas,
Louisiana, and Mississippi. And I want to highlight Mississippi
because Mississippi has made a lot of news recently because
they have had the largest public corruption scandal in their
history. And yet, this Committee has not addressed that once.
We have not done a hearing on it. There have been no letters or
inquiries, as far as I understand, this year in my time in
Congress. So, this is quite problematic. It includes
celebrities like Brett Favre, we all know about. And so, it is
very problematic to me that we are not actually doing this.
Now, Mr. Ballou, you mentioned earlier that, you know, it
is hard to uncover fraud or know about fraud or learn the
motivations when we are getting rid of Inspectors General. I
think that was your implication.
And I just want to lean into that just a little bit,
because I think what the Republicans have done in your state
actually makes a lot of sense to me--receiving tips from the
public, investigating those tips, and then trying to provide
transparency around your findings. And yet that is, Mr. Ballou,
that is what Inspectors General do, right?
Mr. Ballou. That is precisely their job.
Mr. Min. And would it surprise you to know that this
Committee, which is tasked with overseeing the Federal
Government, has done zero hearings since Donald Trump fired all
the Inspectors General at the beginning of his term?
Mr. Ballou. That is unfortunate.
Mr. Min. We really cannot have a discussion around fraud,
misuse of taxpayer dollars, or waste, if we are not talking
about the fact that we just got rid of all the people that are
supposed to oversee that.
So, I have one last question here and----
Chairman Comer. Your time is expired.
Mr. Min. Okay.
Chairman Comer. You have gone over a minute. But you----
Mr. Min. No, I did not go over a minute. I went seven
seconds over.
[Crosstalk.]
Chairman Comer [continuing]. Criticize firing the
Inspectors General when you admit there is massive fraud in
Republican states too. The IGs have failed.
Mr. Min. Can I ask you----
Chairman Comer. Why should we keep funding these agencies
when there is evidence that the money has been defrauded?
Mr. Min. I have a parliamentary inquiry for you, sir.
Chairman Comer. Well, go ahead.
Mr. Min. Are we allowed to use this Committee's resources
to only go after fraud or states of one party?
Chairman Comer. No. We can go after fraud in any party.
Mr. Min. So, are we going to go after--are we going to look
into Mississippi the way that we are looking into Minnesota?
Chairman Comer. If you bring stuff forward, you have
whistleblowers come forward, we will look after it in any
state.
Mr. Min. You will hold a hearing. Do I have your commitment
on that?
Chairman Comer. Well, it depends on the evidence.
Mr. Min. There is clear evidence out there.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Burlison from
Missouri.
Mr. Min. I ask unanimous consent to introduce----
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Min [continuing]. An article----
Chairman Comer. I have already recognized Mr. Burlison.
Mr. Min [continuing]. Which is----
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it.
And, actually, I would like to remind the Committee that
this party, this side of the aisle, has dedicated tremendous
resources to rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. In fact, the
Chairman set up a Committee called ``DOGE'' that the other side
of the aisle, you know, demonized and criticized our efforts,
in which we had multiple hearings to identify waste, fraud, and
abuse throughout all of the government agencies.
And so, I applaud the Chairman and this side for the work
that we have been doing.
But, you know, sadly, Minnesota has become an example
because of the extent of the waste and the fraud. I have to
ask. It must be embarrassing for the citizens of Minnesota,
Chairwoman Robbins.
Ms. Robbins. So, I am not embarrassed to be from Minnesota,
but I am frustrated and angry about the theft of taxpayer
money.
Mr. Burlison. My--I have family that live in Minnesota. It
is a wonderful state. And I know that they are angry, that they
are very frustrated.
So, I think that--we talk about the amount of money that is
being wasted, $9 billion. That seems like an abstract amount,
but let us break that down. Nine billion dollars stolen from
less than six million citizens of Minnesota, correct?
That is, per individual--imagine, right?--you know, every
citizen of Minnesota, your bank account, suddenly someone took
$1,500 out of your bank account. Every taxpayer--there are
around three million citizens--or, taxpayers in Minnesota.
Every taxpayer just had $3,000 stolen from their bank account.
How does that feel to a citizen of Minnesota?
Ms. Robbins. Minnesotans are so frustrated because not only
have we had that money stolen from us, but we had an $18-
billion surplus that Tim Walz spent and then raised our taxes
$11 billion and left us with a $6-billion deficit. So, we have
had the fiscal mismanagement on top of the fraud, and
Minnesotans are completely fed up.
Mr. Burlison. You know, in Missouri--there is also an
opportunity cost to all that money. So, in Missouri, we just,
you know, green-lit a project to add more lanes to I-70, which
runs from one end of the state to the other, and it was only--
it was less than $3 billion.
You could imagine: People in Minnesota could enjoy adding
additional lanes on Interstate--on three of your interstates--
I-35, I-94, I-90. Don't you think the people of Minnesota would
love to have wider lanes--or, more lanes added to their highway
infrastructure?
Ms. Robbins. They absolutely would.
But even if we stayed in the social service realm, there
was $104 million in one year that was fraudulent in the Housing
Stabilization Service. If we could have taken that $104 million
and put it into supportive housing, we would have done a lot to
solve the homelessness problem.
So, every time these dollars are fraudulently stolen, it is
a huge opportunity cost for Minnesotans.
Mr. Burlison. Absolutely.
And you have been sounding the alarm for quite some time.
Why has it taken until 2025 for these to fully come to light?
Ms. Robbins. The Fraud Prevention and State Oversight
Committee was formed in 2025 once we----
Mr. Burlison. Okay.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. Had a tie in the House.
Mr. Burlison. So, when the Republicans took majority, you
finally--or, you were able to actually root out the waste,
fraud, and abuse in Minnesota, which is why we now know about
it.
Ms. Robbins. Yes. We are in a tie, technically, but we were
able to negotiate this as part of the power-sharing agreement.
Mr. Burlison. I seek unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, to
enter into the record an article from the New York Post,
``Former Homeland Security Agent Claims Prosecutors Ignored
Minnesota Day Care Fraud Cases: `Just Evaporated.' ''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
So, there has been investigations been going on for some
time. I understand you do not report them--or, have really kind
of bypassed the state agencies. You report directly to the
Federal Government. Can you elaborate on why that is? It is
pretty obvious why, but.
Ms. Robbins. So, when my staff--we have a very small staff.
We have one researcher on our Committee, and then we as members
also do a lot of our own research. And when we get an
investigation that is credible, we do as much research as we
can, but, as I said earlier, we do not have access to bank
records, health records, or the state payments system. And so,
based on that, when we get something that is credible, we turn
it over to the Office of Legislative Auditor and to the U.S.
Attorney's Office.
I have been accused of hiding whistleblower data from the
department, but when the department comes to hearings, we
provide documents every time. I have flagged 72 childcare
centers. We have given them lists of all of the housing--
multiple addresses where there are more than five providers,
sometimes up to 22 providers, at the same address. They have
done nothing with it.
But what I do not give them is the whistleblower
information, because I am protecting our whistleblowers in
Minnesota. They finally are stepping up, and I have their back.
Mr. Burlison. Good for you. And I appreciate you for doing
that.
And then, finally, with that, I will end. I have more
articles to submit for the record, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Do you want to submit them now, or are you
going to submit them--okay. Proceed.
Mr. Burlison. Okay. One is an article produced that was
about childcare welfare fraud.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Burlison. A report produced by the Office of the
Legislative Auditor of Minnesota, ``Child Care Assistance
Program: Assessment of Fraud Allegations.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Burlison. And then from the Minnesota House Research
Group, ``The Child Care Assistance Program and the Fraud
Within.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost from
Florida.
Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is very important that we eliminate fraud in our social
programs, and I am glad that Governor Walz has taken real,
concrete steps in Minnesota to combat fraud, like signing
legislation that strengthens the state agencies' ability to
detect, prevent, and prosecute fraud, and establishing a
statewide Inspector General Coordinating Council and appointing
an independent state auditor to investigate claims.
Mr. Ballou, how will these actions help uncover and prevent
fraud in the state?
Mr. Ballou. Well, it is the funding and staffing that is
necessary to uncover fraud that is happening at a state level.
But that staffing is not being mirrored at the Federal level.
Mr. Frost. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Ballou. Well, bluntly, most of the enforcement
mechanisms for going after white-collar crime are being
decimated, especially in the Justice Department but also the
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Securities and
Exchange Commission.
Mr. Frost. Of course.
As you have pointed out, you know, it is important for
Governors to play a big role in fighting fraud in their state.
I want to give you a hypothetical. Let us say that you have
a state's Governor that funnels millions of dollars from the
state's money over to the Governor's wife's nonprofit. Let us
say then that nonprofit takes that same money and gives it to
political action committees that help her husband's causes.
Would that be worth investigating?
Mr. Ballou. Absolutely.
Mr. Frost. Well, what say the rest of the witnesses? In
that hypothetical, is that something we should also
investigate?
Ms. Rarick. So, I do not think we are in a place to talk
about hypotheticals, but thank you for the question.
Mr. Frost. The rest of the witnesses, you do not think we
should investigate fraud?
What do you think?
Mr. Hudson. I think I came here prepared to talk about the
fraud that is taking place in my state----
Mr. Frost. Okay.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. And I want to contain my testimony
to the purpose of the hearing.
Mr. Frost. Representative Robbins?
Ms. Robbins. I think we should investigate credible
allegations of fraud wherever they are. But we do not----
Mr. Frost. Thank you. I 100 percent----
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. Know the specifics of that----
Mr. Frost [continuing]. Agree with you, Representative.
Ms. Robbins [continuing]. Circumstance.
Mr. Frost. And, actually, you know, I want to talk about
something that is really important, because my colleague Dave
Min just brought up something. And, you know, Chair Comer, you
had said, if there are credible allegations, if there is
evidence, we should look into it, and I have something for us
to look into.
This is not a hypothetical. This happened in my State of
Florida. Governor Ron DeSantis, Casey DeSantis, and the Hope
Florida Foundation have been subject to a bipartisan
investigation and now a criminal investigation for this exact
same thing I just talked about.
So, if we are going to be here going state by state in this
Committee talking about fraud, I am okay with doing that, but
let us make sure it is not just Democratic states, like Dave
Min said, and let us also look at Republican-led states as
well.
Because what happened in my State of Florida is, $10
million of Medicaid money was funneled to the Governor's wife's
nonprofit. Then that nonprofit took that money and gave it to
political action committees helping her husband.
I would like to enter for the record a unanimous consent
for The New York Times' ``Why Did a Charity Tied to Casey
DeSantis Suddenly Get a $10 Million Boost?''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Frost. Chair Comer, will you commit to working with me
to schedule a hearing on this?
Chairman Comer. Get the stuff to me, and we will definitely
look at. Ten million dollars. We are talking about $9 billion
today.
Mr. Frost. So, does the $10 million----
Chairman Comer. Yes, get that to me. Appreciate it.
Mr. Frost. Yes, I will get it to you. I will get it to you.
Definitely a lower amount of money, but $10 million in Medicaid
money going to--being funneled from taxpayer Floridians to
political action committees is fraud and is criminal. And this
is a bipartisan investigation looked at by both Democrats and
Republicans, and I definitely expect this Committee to do the
same thing.
And I have one more thing I want to talk about that
Representative Ansari brought up. President Trump reposted
conspiracy theories on his Truth Social account about the
murder of Minnesota State legislators Mark and Melissa Hortman
that suggest that Minnesota Governor Tim Walz had the Hortmans
assassinated.
Governor Walz says this behavior will get more innocent
people killed. And the Hortman children have come out on the
President and called on the President to take the statements
down.
I think it is very important that we are very clear that we
condemn this type of behavior. So, I just want to go down the
line and hear if you agree with the Hortman children that we
should condemn and we ask the President to take down this post.
Mr. Ballou?
Mr. Ballou. Yes.
Mr. Frost. Representative?
Ms. Rarick. So, as the longest-serving member on this panel
of Minnesota, I am so offended that anybody would accuse
anybody of the assassination other than Lance Boelter, because
this was----
Mr. Frost. So, do you agree with the----
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. A deep, deep scar in the State of
Minnesota and----
Mr. Frost. Yes.
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. All of us personally. I served
with Melissa----
Mr. Frost. I understand.
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. Hortman my entire 13 years.
Mr. Frost. Ma'am, but do you agree----
Ms. Rarick. And it is just unbelievably beyond the pale----
Mr. Frost. Do you agree that----
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. That we are talking about that
right now.
Mr. Frost [continuing]. We should call on the President to
take down the post? That is it.
Ms. Rarick. I said what I said. I think that it is beyond
the pale that anybody talk about anyone or----
Mr. Frost. Okay. You cannot come to call on the President
to take down the post. So, it is okay. We will move on.
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. Anybody assassinating Melissa
Hortman----
Mr. Frost. Representative Hudson?
We will move on. Thank you, ma'am.
Ms. Rarick [continuing]. Except for Lance Boelter.
Mr. Frost. Thank you, ma'am. We will move on. You cannot
call on the President to take down this post. We will move on
to Representative Hudson.
It is just a yes or no.
Mr. Hudson. I cannot deceive the Committee by giving it a
binary. I have spoken to this many times. I have renounced the
content of these ridiculous conspiracy theories, and I have
called them ``ridiculous'' on multiple occasions, but----
Mr. Frost. That is great. Do you think it is appropriate
for the President of the United States to repost it?
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. I am not going to engage in this
silly condemnation game----
Mr. Frost. No. No, no, no. This is not----
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. In a context----
Mr. Frost. No, no, no, no, no.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. In a context----
Mr. Frost. This is not silly. This is the President----
Mr. Hudson. What did you have to say----
Mr. Frost. It is my time. I will reclaim my time.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. About the assassination of Charlie
Kirk?
Mr. Frost. I will reclaim my time.
Mr. Hudson. What did you have to say----
Mr. Frost. I will reclaim my time.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. About Jay Jones----
Mr. Frost. I will reclaim my time.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. Who is the chief law enforcement
officer----
Mr. Frost. I will reclaim my time.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. In the State of Virginia----
Mr. Frost. I will reclaim my time.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. Fantasizing about----
Mr. Frost. I will reclaim my time.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. Shooting Republicans and watching
kids die----
Mr. Frost. I will reclaim my time.
[Crosstalk.]
Mr. Frost. The gentleman will----
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. In their mothers' arms?
Mr. Frost [continuing]. Stop talking on my time.
Mr. Hudson. I am not playing this game----
Mr. Frost. The gentleman will stop talking----
Chairman Comer. Order.
Mr. Hudson [continuing]. In that context, ever.
Mr. Frost [continuing]. On my time.
Chairman Comer. Order, order, order.
We will give you a few seconds----
Mr. Frost. A few seconds.
Chairman Comer [continuing]. To close, Mr. Frost.
Mr. Frost. I have to comment on this because this is not
silly. It is not silly to expect good behavior from the people
at the highest levels of our government, including----
Mr. Hudson. You expect it from Jay Jones?
Mr. Frost. No, not your time.
Mr. Hudson. Do you expect it from Jay Jones?
Mr. Frost. Not your time. Including the President of the
United States.
Mr. Gill. Order.
Mr. Frost. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Timmons from South Carolina. Is
that right? Yes, Mr. Timmons.
Mr. Timmons. Mr. Chairman, we are only one week in to 2026,
and the Democrats are having a tough year. Here we are--this
should not be a partisan issue.
We have uncovered $9 billion in fraud. It does not matter
if it is a red state or a blue state. That is $9 billion. And
you got to remember, the purpose of these social safety nets is
to help people that need help. And when we have that amount of
fraud, it undermines the purpose of the social safety nets. The
people that want and need the benefits that they are deserving
because they are American citizens, they are unable to get them
because people are stealing money.
And it is even somewhat comical because, just a few days
ago when the Trump Administration executed the most
incredible--I mean, they technically executed--a warrant on
Maduro, a narcoterrorist. They were able to not have a single
casualty from our military, they limited collateral damage, and
they executed what is truly just a perfect tactical military
operation. And the Democrats have gone ballistic over it, gone
ballistic.
This man has had warrants out for his arrest for five
years. He has had a $25 million bounty, which was increased to
a $50 million bounty. This is not a partisan issue. He has
killed hundreds of thousands of Americans over the last few
decades because he has sent drugs here for Americans to use and
they have died from it. This is not a partisan issue.
Venezuela was a huge step in the right direction. Peace
through strength works. We got to get together and we got to
work on the issues that the American people want us to work on.
And seeking out waste, fraud, and abuse, seeking out $9 billion
in theft of social safety net money is something that should
not be partisan. And the fact that my colleagues across the
aisle are going ballistic over these ridiculous ancillary
issues and trying to cast shade over what should not be a
partisan issue is just ridiculous.
So, get it together. We need to do the job that the
American people sent us here to do.
I want to actually point something out. So, Representative
Robbins, my understanding is that around $250 million in fraud
was found in the four years of the Biden Administration. There
were a number of indictments, dozens of indictments. Is that
number about right?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. I think now they are up to about $310
million for the Feeding Our Future.
Mr. Timmons. All right. Thank you. So, in the last year, in
the last year, we are at $9 billion. Is that the number you
got?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. The U.S. Attorney has estimated that the
total fraud in the Medicaid portion, which has nothing to do
with Feeding Our Future--so, it is on top of that $310
million--half of it is fraud.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you.
Mr. Ballou, you see where I am going with this? So, you are
saying that we have had--we have decimated the budget of the
IGs--which, by the way, were not doing their jobs because we
have uncovered, I mean, $8.5, $8.6 billion more dollars in
fraud with less resources.
So, how do you explain your testimony earlier that we have
decimated the entities that are designed to investigate fraud
when we have uncovered exponentially more fraud with less
resources? How do you explain that?
Mr. Ballou. You know, what we have been talking about today
is not just regular fraud, the public corruption. So, the
challenge that we have now is that the public corruption
office----
Mr. Timmons. So, here is the thing. We are not having a
hearing on public corruption. We are having a hearing on $9
billion in fraud associated with Minnesota social safety nets.
And so, you keep pushing back on that. You keep pushing back on
this narrative that we should be seeking out waste, fraud, and
abuse everywhere by saying that the Trump Administration has
decimated the entities that are designed to seek out waste,
fraud, and abuse, and yet those same entities have uncovered
exponentially more fraud.
Mr. Ballou. The problem is that they have not charged any
public officials----
Mr. Timmons. There is no problem. Your logic is flawed, and
you know your logic is flawed.
Mr. Ballou [continuing]. And the public integrity function
has been----
Mr. Timmons. Your logic is flawed, and you know your logic
is flawed. I just wanted to point it out. It is okay.
So, I guess I want to get to this. We have a limited amount
of money. We have $37 trillion in debt. We run a $2 trillion
annual deficit. And we have spent much of this year seeking out
waste, fraud, and abuse trying to get our fiscal house back in
order because we are running out of time.
So, this cannot be a partisan issue. We cannot solve these
problems without a bipartisan approach. So, I have a bill that
I filed called the TABS Act. And what it does, is it uses
technology to confirm income eligibility.
So, $1.5 trillion every year go to social safety nets that
are means tested, meaning depending on where you live, if you
make too much money, you do not get them. And so, if we use
technology to real-time verify, you can actually give the
social safety net, the person that is seeking it, way faster,
in most cases immediately, and then you can remove them from
that social safety net in real time.
In the Big Beautiful Bill, we changed it from once a year
to twice a year, and that saved $10 billion. If you do it in
real time, you are going to save 20 percent of the money. So,
if you extrapolate that over ten years, it is about $2.5
trillion in savings for means-tested social safety nets.
These are the kind of things we need to be doing. This is
not a partisan issue. We all agree that people fall on hard
times and we need to help them up. We need to help them up.
But if we have $9 billion of fraud in Minnesota, imagine
what we have in California, imagine what we have in New York,
imagine what we have across this country, and we have got to
get a handle on it because we are running out of time. We
cannot keep spending money we do not have.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Palmer from Alabama.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Robbins, how long do you think the corrupt activity has
been going on in Minnesota?
Ms. Robbins. We have whistleblower reports dating back from
2013 or 2014, so through the Dayton Administration and the Walz
Administration.
Mr. Palmer. Over a decade. Over a decade.
Why is it that we are just now seeing--having this fully
uncovered? And I am not sure it is fully uncovered yet. Why is
it--I mean, you have got an Attorney General, you have got a
Governor who claims to be pure as the driven snow. And you get
a lot of snow in Minnesota. Why is it just now coming out?
Ms. Robbins. Well, because it has been a failure of the
Administration, particularly our Office of Management and
Budget, who has responsibility constitutionally for this, and
they have not been doing their job. But because we were able to
create this oversight Committee, it is the first time in the
history of our legislature we have had an oversight Committee.
Mr. Palmer. Would you agree that with this fraud going on
over a decade and, basically, the lackadaisical or
disinterested approach from your government, that that is why
it is necessary for the Oversight Committee here in Congress to
take this up? Would you agree with that?
Ms. Robbins. I do. We are grateful for your help, because
we do not have the resources and we do not have subpoena power
and some of the tools that you have.
Mr. Palmer. Well, the reason that--one of the reasons that
I do not think we need to bring Mississippi in here is because
they have been very aggressive in their investigation and
prosecution, along with the U.S. Attorney's Office.
And I just want to point that out, Mr. Chairman, that we
would not be sitting here today asking the questions that we
are having to ask if the Governor of Minnesota, Walz, and the
Attorney General, and the other people that are responsible for
oversight had acted expeditiously in investigating this
themselves.
So, that is why we are here, isn't it?
Ms. Robbins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Palmer. I appreciate all of you being here.
The charges and reports of fraudulent autism centers in
Minnesota are shocking to me. Could you describe to us your
Committee's findings in this area, Ms. Robbins, and how these
fraudsters were operating?
Ms. Robbins. It is really shocking. So, there were autism
centers that are Medicaid waiver program, and people were
getting paid kickbacks to sign their kids up to participate in
the autism center so they could build Medicaid, and these
children did not necessarily have autism.
We have substantiated, court-documented by the U.S.
attorney, how the parents were getting their kids falsely
diagnosed with autism so that then they could get a kickback to
participate in billing Medicaid for autism services.
Mr. Palmer. It is not just the fraud in terms of money. It
is the abuse of children by their parents that has taken place
here. And they were able to defraud the Early Intensive
Development and Behavioral Intervention (EDIBI) program
millions?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. I think we are just at the tip of the
iceberg in understanding it. There has been a handful of
charges, but we expect more.
Mr. Palmer. Mr. Hudson, do you think General Ellison or
Governor Walz was aware of the fraud prior to the exposure that
has been brought now?
Mr. Hudson. Oh, there is simply no doubt. I mean, again,
referring to the exhibit that I submitted with my testimony,
2,500 pages of OLA reports citing all of the red flags and risk
factors, and they did not take appropriate action.
Mr. Palmer. Why do you think they did that, Mr. Hudson and
Ms. Rarick? She is about to hit her button, so go ahead.
Mr. Hudson. In my opinion, the simplest answer, the most
logical answer is that they did not want to know the answer to
the question. Because the answer to the question was going to
require them to take action against one of their favorite
political constituents.
Mr. Palmer. It has also been alleged that they may have
benefited.
Mr. Hudson. Yes, that has been alleged. And I hope the
evidence is entered into the record through investigation and
prosecution.
Mr. Palmer. Well, it is going to be a thorough
investigation.
Ms. Rarick, you were about to say something?
Ms. Rarick. Just really quickly. So, I think it should be
noted--we have not said this yet--but Jim Nobles was our
legislative auditor for 38 years, and he did a statement in the
Star Tribune on December 29 of 2025. And he said, literally,
all the state needed to do was implement standard financial
controls and oversight.
Why the Walz Administration did not do that is still a
mystery, but it is disturbing.
Mr. Palmer. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I think we just heard full
justification for why we are having to have this hearing and
why we will have to followup. Because, clearly, the State of
Minnesota had almost a lack of interest, maybe even an interest
in covering it up.
And so, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back, and look
forward to further investigating this massive problem.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Mr. Palmer. I think the evidence
is clear as well.
The Chair now recognizes Mrs. Luna from Florida.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Chairman Comer.
Before I get to the questioning of some of our witnesses
today--and thank you again for being here--I would like to make
a motion to subpoena journalist Seth Harp for leaking
classified information, including doxxing a Delta Force
commander on Operation Absolute Resolve, which liberated the
Venezuelan people and brought a terrorist dictator to the
United States to face justice for his crimes against American
citizens.
Chairman Comer. A motion has been made, another motion by
Mrs. Luna. The Committee will hold this motion in abeyance till
the end of today's hearing.
The Committee will now proceed.
Mr. Frost. Mr. Chair?
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes----
Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Chairman Comer.
Mr. Frost. I make a motion to request this in writing.
Chairman Comer. Hold on. Hold on. There has been a
parliamentary inquiry.
Mr. Frost. Parliamentary inquiry. We would like to request
this in writing.
Chairman Comer. Okay.
Mrs. Luna. I can submit that. If I can just, right after
this, I will totally submit that to you guys. Because I have
some other motions that we are voting on at the end.
This is a great motion in writing.
Mr. Frost. Okay. Thank you.
Mrs. Luna. We want everyone on record for this one. Thank
you.
Chairman Comer. All right. The Chair recognizes Mrs. Luna.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Chairman Comer.
Honorable Robbins, based on your record before your
committee, when did Governor Walz first become aware of
widespread fraud in Minnesota's social service programs?
Ms. Robbins. I would assume that he has been aware of it
since he ran for office for Governor in 2018.
Mrs. Luna. By 2017, DHS investigators warned CCAP fraud
could exceed 50 percent. Was that information elevated to the
Governor's office?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. There was an OLA report.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you, ma'am.
By 2020, state officials knew Feeding Our Future invoices
were fraudulent. We know that payments continued to the AG's
knowledge. Did they continue to the Governor's knowledge as
well?
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Mrs. Luna. Attorney General Ellison agreed on tape to fight
Minnesota's own Department of Human and Health Services in
exchange for Somali political and financial support.
In your personal opinion, do you believe it is a
possibility that Governor Walz also made that personal deal or
that he at least knew about the Attorney General's agreement?
Ms. Robbins. I do not know.
Mrs. Luna. Okay. I do not want to rehash what you guys have
spent hours answering. We know that there is a big issue with
the fraud in Minnesota.
So, on a number of things, I would first like to point out
thank you for being here today. But because of your testimony
and because of some of the evidence that we have seen brought
forward, as well as, I am sure, the fact that this Committee, I
assume, at Chairman Comer's direction, will be soon subpoenaing
AG Ellison, I would like to make criminal referrals regarding
Governor Walz as well as AG Ellison.
As you know, U.S. Code 371 and U.S. Code 2, which deals
with criminalized conspiracies to defraud the United States and
establishes liability for individuals who knowingly aid or abet
the commission a Federal offense, includes willingful blindness
or deliberate inaction where duties to act exist. So, I will be
referring them later on today.
Now, aside from that, I do just want to point out that
there is a statute that you can denaturalize citizens if their
applications were fraudulent and also, too, if within ten years
of their naturalization that they committed fraud in the United
States.
And so, I take this very seriously, and it is very
unfortunate that these people chose to do this, because being
an American citizen is not a right; it is a privilege,
especially if you were not born here.
And so, with that idea in mind, I would like to say that
these criminals took advantage of the very country that gave
them refuge. They do not deserve the privilege of remaining
here, and, frankly, they do not deserve to even be imprisoned
here, which is why, as the Chairwoman of the El Salvador
Caucus, I work very strongly with President Bukele. And we also
know that CECOT has proven to be a great facility to house
people that are denaturalized and deemed not worthy of U.S.
citizenship, and I will be making referrals for those
individuals if they are found guilty.
Thank you for being here today.
Chairman, I yield my time.
Chairman Comer. Will you yield the last 2 minutes you had?
Mrs. Luna. Yes, sir, to you.
Chairman Comer. All right. So, we have talked a lot about
Governor Walz. I think you have all done a tremendous job
codifying the fact that there is massive amounts of waste in
Minnesota. This has been taking place for years, and yet
nothing has been done.
The Democrats want to keep spending more money. They are
like, why are we cutting off funding temporarily? We need to
spend more money, throw more money at the problem. That is not
working. The American people are not going to have it.
Thank you all for being here today to talk about this. I
know it takes a lot of courage, and I am sure you are probably
getting threats from certain people that have benefited from
this and others that are misinformed by the, you know, some of
the--my colleagues on the other side of the aisle.
We have talked about Walz. You have stated that Walz has
been well aware of this, but we have not talked a lot about
Attorney General Ellison. Very quickly, do you all have
anything to add about his knowledge? Was he aware of this?
Go ahead, Ms. Rarick.
Ms. Rarick. Thank you. I actually have that document in
front of me that I wanted to share.
So, this is from a press release that we actually
confronted him with when we had a hearing and he was in front
of us. And the press release is from September 26 of 2022, and
this is press release from his office.
And it says, ``Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison and
his office have been deeply involved for two years in holding
Feeding Our Future accountable.'' Now, the tape that we have
been talking about as well where he said he would go to bat for
the fraudsters against state agencies which, by the way, were
his clients, happened one year prior to this press release.
So, if he had been working to oust the fraudsters for
Feeding Our Future, he would have known who they were at the
time of that meeting. He claimed in front of us that he did not
know who they were. That was his reason to meet with them.
And, by the way, I would say that he did not meet with them
in his official office, which is highly suspect. He met with
them at a strip mall, I think, something like that.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Well, we have invited him to be at
our next hearing on this. If he does not respond very soon, he
will be receiving a subpoena to be here at the next hearing.
And we look forward to working with you and any other
whistleblowers who want to come forward to ask Mr. Ellison
specific questions.
Now, the Chair recognizes Mr. Gill for a unanimous consent.
Mr. Gill. I have got a unanimous consent request to enter
into the record, ``Former legislative auditor: Is the Walz
Administration Finally Awake about Fraud?''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr.--are you
ready, Mr. Langworthy or?
Mr. Langworthy. No. Please go to the next.
Chairman Comer. So, Mr. McGuire. The Chair recognizes Mr.
McGuire from Virginia for 5 minutes.
Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our
witnesses for being here today and for your tireless work on
your committee to investigate and sound the alarm for fraud in
your state.
After receiving a mandate from the American people and
taking office, President Trump and this Administration have
worked tirelessly to root out and put an end to waste, fraud,
and abuse in our Federal Government.
The recent childcare fraud that has come to light in
Minnesota is just the latest example of why the American people
deserve to have oversight in how their taxpayer dollars are
being spent.
Talking with constituents in my district, I had one guy say
to me, he said, ``John, why, why should we even pay taxes?''
The signal that we are getting around our country is that you
do everything right and you pay your taxes, and these folks are
buying homes in foreign countries. These fraudsters are
stealing from the American people, we, the people.
And one constituent said, ``We are not paying taxes, we are
paying criminals.'' We need to know where our taxpayer dollars
are going.
The 20 million or so illegal aliens that came into our
country have come here to break the donkey's back. You know, if
you want to break a donkey's back, you keep loading it on and
loading it on until its back breaks. And we are sick and tired
of the waste, fraud, and abuse.
For some reason, it seems like our friends on the other
side of the aisle partner with the fraudsters and not those
people that are identifying the fraud.
You may remember during the summer of love when they were
burning our cities for 80 days. Instead of supporting the
police, they wanted to defund the police and use their dollars
to bail them out of jail so they continue burning our cities.
Makes no sense.
Recently, we got Maduro out of his country to stand trial
for killing and terrorizing thousands of American citizens. And
instead of telling the military what a great job they did, they
had protests around the country for Maduro.
And by the way, I had a friend in the airport in Buenos
Aires when it was announced. The entire airport cheered. And
people in Venezuela say that they have been eating out of trash
cans, and family members got into prostitution because their
family was starving, they are trying to survive.
As a Navy SEAL veteran, I served in Venezuela during the
nineties, and it was one of the most prosperous, strongest
economic countries, safest places in South America, and they
have ruined it. So, anyway, the people are sick and tired of
the waste, fraud, and abuse.
In reference to the most recent childcare fraud scandal
coming to light, a spokesperson for Governor Walz said, the
Governor has worked for years to crack down on fraud and asked
the state legislature for more authority to take aggression on
this action. He has strengthened oversight.
Ms. Robbins and Mr. Hudson and Ms. Rarick, as members of
the Fraud Prevention and State Agency Oversight Committee, do
you agree that Governor Walz has strengthened oversight in the
State of Minnesota, yes or no?
Ms. Robbins. No. He belatedly took action this fall because
of the enormous pressure that is coming to bear. But his agency
has always had the authority that he trumpeted now.
Mr. Hudson. No. He simplified the problem by pretending
that you can solve it by appointing somebody to look at it.
This needs systemic reform.
Ms. Rarick. He absolutely shredded oversight, simply.
Mr. McGuire. I heard their testimony that it was career
suicide to speak up.
But, Ms. Robbins, you have been very vocal about the
mistreatment of whistleblowers by Governor Walz. Can you speak
to some of the ways that Governor Walz and his Administration
have retaliated against whistleblowers?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. I have met with many whistleblowers who
have spoken about how they were told that they would be demoted
or reassigned. I know of people who were reassigned. We also
know that they were surveilled in their place of work when
people thought they might be the, quote, leaker. Their email
and their chat functions were surveilled electronically for
words like ``fraud'' or ``whistleblower'' or ``compliance'' or
``overbilling''.
So, they are under a great deal of stress in the Department
of Human Services, and we are grateful for the whistleblowers
who have spoken out to us.
Mr. McGuire. So, based on all of your knowledge about this
scandal or this fraud in Minnesota, I think it is the tip of
the iceberg. We are like $37 trillion in debt, and now, I do
not know what it is about Somali, but apparently they are using
that for Somali daycare centers in Washington State now. And it
has come to light that there is some daycare center fraud in
Ohio as well associated with Somalis.
So, I think we are just the tip of the iceberg, and there
is waste, fraud, and abuse everywhere. Maybe a big chunk of our
national debt comes from waste, fraud, and abuse.
So, I do not care if it is a red state or a blue state. We
need to have oversight, and we need to protect the American
people's taxpayer dollars.
The childcare fraud brought to light by Nick Shirley is
just the latest scandal. In 2022, Federal prosecutors charged
47 defendants, majority of whom were from the Minnesota Somali
community, for the role they played in Feeding Our Future.
Are they still in power in Minnesota?
Ms. Robbins. The Democrats?
Mr. McGuire. No. The Feeding Our Future. What is going on
with them now?
Ms. Robbins. So, that program was a COVID-era child
nutrition program, and that is over. But there are ongoing
child nutrition programs that could be fraudulent.
So, I think they are still working their way through the
Feeding Our Future case, but I think there will be need for
ongoing oversight of child nutrition programs.
Mr. McGuire. With that, I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Langworthy
from Buffalo, New York. Okay.
The Chair recognizes--we will go to--is Mr. Stauber, are
you ready, prepared, or Mrs. Fischbach?
Mr. Stauber. Representative Fischbach prior to me. Thank
you.
Chairman Comer. Okay. The Chair recog--we are going to get
to our waive-ons, and we may have a few more that will come in.
We have a few more Republicans have not asked questions yet.
But, Mrs. Fischbach, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Fischbach. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
And before I begin my remarks, I want to enter into the
record an email shared by DHS whistleblowers. The email was
written by a senior DHS official and sent to other DHS leaders.
In the email, the DHS official talks about using military
intelligence resources to track down whistleblowers' exact
location in this issue, and I believe this email was alluded to
by Representative Rarick in her testimony.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mrs. Fischbach. Thank you so much.
And I have one more. And I ask for unanimous consent to
enter into the record an article titled, ``Minnesota Government
Whistleblowers Claim They Were `Electronically Surveilled', Had
Promotions Denied,'' in the New York Post dated January 3,
2026.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mrs. Fischbach. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And, first, I would like to say thank you, Mr. Chair, for
allowing us to waive on. This is an incredibly important issue
in our state and across the country, and it is something that
comes up all the time when we are out in the district.
And so, I thank--and I thank all of the legislators for
being here and for all of your work that you do in order to
expose this and dig into it and really figure out what is going
on.
I think it was Mr. Burlison who asked if we were
embarrassed, but I am not embarrassed to be from Minnesota.
What I am is really sad, that this is happening and this is
what Minnesota is known for now, this horrible fraud, because
there are wonderful things that Minnesota does have to offer.
And so, as a lifelong Minnesotan, it makes me sad that this is
what we are having to talk about.
And while some may want to downplay this fraud, I want to
be clear, this is an explicit and egregious coverup on the
theft of taxpayer dollars and hundreds of millions stolen from
programs intended to help feed children, provide housing,
provide childcare, even help individuals with autism. And we
also have reports that some of this funding is going to
terrorist organizations, like was mentioned earlier.
Democrats have been in charge in Minnesota for years. And I
was in the Minnesota Legislature. I know. And they specifically
wrote and passed legislation that reduced oversight when
handing out Federal funds. Democrats seized on COVID, in
particular, to yank back fraud protections just so that they
could hand out money as fast as possible. That was the whole
thing. That was the mantra during COVID is we have got to get
it out fast, so we cannot have all these regulations and checks
and balances on them.
Unfortunately, though, this problem is not new, and it was
not just from COVID in Minnesota. Whistleblowers report that
they have been making reports for years. The Democrat
leadership at the state level in Minnesota has been actively
suppressing whistleblowers, and I think some of the testimony
that you have all given today is pointing that out. And that is
not an opinion. It is fact. It is fact.
So, I am going to ask--maybe we are going to go over some
of this a little once again, but I want to make sure that
everybody understands that there is a clear answer.
Representative Rarick, the tweet--where did my sign go? I
have a sign. Maybe we do not.
But there is an account that is working--that is, I
believe, from the whistleblowers, and I just wanted to note--
there we go. Thank you.
This behind me is the account. Is it run by one
whistleblower?
Ms. Rarick. Madam Congressman, no. It actually is comprised
of over 1,000 state employees across multiple state agencies.
Mrs. Fischbach. So, this is not just a couple of people.
This is a lot, a lot of people bringing this to light.
And were the whistleblowers ever made to feel unsafe on
their attempts to report fraud?
Ms. Rarick. Yes, absolutely. I can give you two quotes that
they have in the seven-page document that was submitted for
this Committee hearing.
Two things that they said is, think about your home, and
what if you lose your job? So, these are things said to
whistleblowers. Second thing was, we need information about
where your kids go to school and where their bus stops are.
Mrs. Fischbach. And, Representative Rarick, that is just
incredible stuff. And I know you mentioned it before, but I do
think it is worth repeating. Because we had whistleblowers,
this could have been happening, but there has been Democrat
administration after Democrat administration, including Walz
and including--and the newer--they have not addressed these
things. And they have not said, hey, whistleblowers, we believe
you, and we are going to do something about it. And so that is
the concern.
And I just want to--I am running low on time, but I wanted
to just ask Representative Robbins. And I am sorry, Mr. Hudson,
but you have had some really good, good moments today, so I
will go to Representative Robbins.
As Chair of the Committee, if these claims of retaliatory
action are true, then it violates the law. So, if these claims
are true, then a state agency is violating our own state
whistleblowers laws. Is that correct?
Ms. Robbins. So, the whistleblower statute is for civil
penalties. There is no criminal penalty for whistleblower
retaliation in statute currently, but we are looking at that
for the next session.
But that is why, when people say why haven't these people
who have retaliated against the whistleblowers been prosecuted,
it is because there is no criminal penalty in statute.
Mrs. Fischbach. Has there been anything by the Attorney
General's Office? And this is maybe a question that I will ask
if he comes. Anything by the Attorney General's Office that
would deal with that?
Ms. Robbins. No. We have passed a law this session to
expand whistleblower protection because, prior to this session,
they could only report up through their supervisor or to the
state attorney general. And when they did, they were either
ghosted or they were retaliated against.
So, we expanded it, so now they can report to legislators
and they can report to law enforcement. And that is how we got
this just deluge of whistleblower reports, because now they
have somewhere safe to report.
Mrs. Fischbach. And you have been very indulgent. And I
will just say, after 15 years of Democrat administration in
Minnesota, this massive fraud is coming to an end because we
are going to get to it.
And I appreciate the work that you have done on your
committee, and we will do whatever we can to continue to bring
it to light and prosecute those folks involved. So, thank you
very much.
And, Mr. Chair, I thank you very much for your indulgence.
Chairman Comer. Thank you, Mrs.----
Mr. Bell. Chair, I ask unanimous consent.
Chairman Comer. Who said that? Mr. Bell.
Mr. Bell. Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into
the record this May 2025 report from the Senate Committee on
Homeland Security and Government Affairs entitled,
``Undermining the Watchdogs: The 19 Independent Inspectors
General Fired by President Trump Uncovered Billions in Fraud,
Waste, and Abuse.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
All right. Our next Minnesota waive-on is Mr. Finstad from
Minnesota.
Mr. Finstad. Thank you, Chairman Comer. Thank you for
holding this important hearing today. And thank you to our
great Minnesota legislators for being here. God bless you and
your work. It has been so needed, and you have amplified and
created such a voice and opportunity for us to get to the
bottom of this. So, thank you.
Governor Walz' incompetence has put a spotlight on our
state by enabling rampant fraud across federally funded state-
administered programs.
And for those that are not from Minnesota, in Minnesota the
Democrat Party goes by the DFL, Democrat-Farmer-Labor. Well, I
will tell you what, they kicked the farmer out a long time ago,
and that F now stands for fraud. And that is wholly owned by
Governor Walz, Lieutenant Governor Flanagan, and it is on them,
and it will be on them forever.
Minnesota taxpayers have had more than $9 billion and
counting taken from their pockets, yet the Walz Administration
has failed to take meaningful action to stop this. Since
Feeding Our Future's scandal came to light, not a single
individual responsible for ensuring accountability to these
federally funded programs has been fired, not a single.
This would not stand a second in the private sector. I do
not care if you are a bank CEO, I do not care if you are a
greeter at Walmart. You would not have your job with the
incompetence that Governor Walz has displayed in Minnesota.
Since I was first elected in 2022, I have joined my
Republican colleagues and the congressional delegation sending
numerous letters to Governor Walz and his Administration to
expose the lawlessness occurring in our state, with no
response.
The Minnesota State legislators here testifying have been
on the front lines working to combat this failure and Governor
Walz' failure to responsibly steward over the $9 billion in
taxpayer money. I thank you for appearing here today.
With that being said, you know, we are talking about
programs--housing stabilization, daycare, autism centers,
Feeding Our Future. I mean, these are all compassionate, good
Minnesota values. We want to take care of our neighbors in
need. If our neighbors--if they are struggling to find the
amount of money to put food on their table, we will take the
shirt off our back to help our neighbors in need.
These fraudsters preyed on the goodwill of Minnesotans.
Minnesota is Minnesota nice, and these fraudsters knew it, and
they took advantage of us.
So, I am going to start with you, Representative Rarick.
Thank you again for your leadership. During your tenure in
Minnesota State Government, how long have you been working on
this issue, and what are some of the craziest, most egregious
things that you have seen really that have been identified by
the incompetency of our CEO/Governor of our state?
Ms. Rarick. Right. So, I was elected in 2013, started
serving then, and I literally have heard about fraud since
2013. And I will tell you, every time that it was raised in a
committee by myself or my colleagues, we were essentially
called racist and Islamophobic or that the fraud really was not
happening.
I remember with the daycare fraud when there was credible
allegations that it was $100 million back in 2013, 2014, 2015,
somewhere in there, they prosecuted closer to $5 to $10
million. And so instead of the $100 million, that was what was
prosecuted. And so, Democrats would say, well, it is really
not. It is really not 100 million. It is really just a couple.
And so, I know that we had a gentleman behind us come and
testify in front of us, and he had a tracker, and they spent
the entire time besmirching his good character as opposed to
actually talking about the fraud. And that is what we have
experienced nonstop every day.
Mr. Finstad. Yes. So, thank you for that testimony, but
also thank you for being strong. Because the politics of
intimidation, name-calling, race-baiting, they want us to shut
up. They want this fraud to continue. And so, thank you for
being strong.
You know, I represent 750,000 of our neighbors in southern
Minnesota. It is God's country down there. And, you know, I
hear from my neighbors, the Democrat control and what it has
done to decimate our daycare industry, the affordability, the
access. We just struggle with daycare in southern Minnesota.
And I cannot help but think that, wow, $9 billion sure would go
a long ways to help our neighbors in southern Minnesota.
You know, the Walz Administration has done crazy things.
They weaponized the Administration. Heck, we have daycares in
southern Minnesota getting fined for leaving ChapStick on their
office desk. They can find the time to do that, but they cannot
find the $9 billion. Ridiculous.
Representative Robbins, the Democrats at the state and
Federal level--so we are talking everyone from Angie Craig,
Ilhan Omar, Tina Smith, Amy Klobuchar, Tim Walz, Lieutenant
Governor Flanagan--have they helped at all in your committee
work? Have they been a part of it? Have they said, hey, we want
to help try to get rid of this fraud?
Ms. Robbins. No. I do not know of any Democrats who have
called out the Walz Administration for their absolute failure
to protect taxpayer dollars and our vulnerable citizens.
Mr. Finstad. So, this is just unbelievable to me that we
cannot, in the face of this horrific fraud and crime that is
going on, we cannot for a brief moment rip the R and the D off
our sweatshirt and put the USA on and say enough is enough.
And so, what you are doing and by being here today, helping
us understand the details and the level of fraud in Minnesota
is so important, we cannot thank you enough.
And, Chairman Comer, we stand ready to help you and this
Committee however we can to put an end to this.
Chairman Comer. We are serious about it, and we want to
work with you.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Langworthy from Buffalo.
Mr. Langworthy. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman,
and thank you for putting this hearing together so promptly
after all of this fraud was unveiled.
I am not going to get into belaboring all the facts that
have been revealed here already today. But, Representative
Robbins, how long do you believe that this fraud was allowed to
operate in Minnesota before anyone in state government actually
decided to act?
Ms. Robbins. Well, we have had all this going on since 2014
at least, and the Walz Administration has been in office seven
years, and they very belatedly took a few actions this fall.
So, they only came to the table to help pause programs and
have required audits because of the public pressure.
Mr. Langworthy. So, we are looking at fraud going back 11
years at this point in untold sums of money.
And with the years that this has gone on, who in your mind
knew about this fraud and who do you think looked the other
way?
Ms. Robbins. I think everybody in Minnesota knew about it.
There have been so many great local investigative journalistic
stories on this, and I think the Governor, the Lieutenant
Governor, the Attorney General, and all of the agency heads
have looked the other way.
Mr. Langworthy. I really want to salute you and your
colleagues that were on the front end of this trying to get
people to pay attention to this.
And when you raised attention to this fraud, long before
Nick Shirley's outstanding reporting, Governor Walz and
Attorney General Ellison actually refused to take your claim
seriously. Isn't that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. We gave them a list in February of last
year of 72 childcare centers we thought were problematic that
should be investigated. And to my knowledge, they did not do
anything with the list we provided.
Mr. Langworthy. Now, as an elected official, you obviously
are out in the community. Is this blatant fraud something that
people on the street are talking about?
Ms. Robbins. All the time. They are furious.
Mr. Langworthy. And they know it. It is in plain sight.
Everyone knows what is going on, but no one will act?
Ms. Robbins. Well, we are doing our best to act at the
committee.
Mr. Langworthy. You are. You are. But the people that are
actually in power--you know, I come from New York, so I
understand what blue state living is all about.
But I--it is infuriating, because we see the same thing in
our home state. And when you have people in power that refuse
to do the right thing, even though the problem is an obvious
one, it is really disheartening to the constituents and the
taxpayers, the hardworking men and women paying the bills.
And, Representative Robbins, do you think that there was a
political calculation that was made by the people that turn a
blind eye, that it was more beneficial for them to allow and
kind of green light the fraud, or were they afraid of political
consequences if they actually did something about that from a
constituency of Somalis?
Ms. Robbins. Yes. I think they chose to protect the
fraudsters and the criminals over the whistleblowers and the
taxpayers because, as the Somali investigator said, that
feckless fear--they had feckless fear from the establishment
politicians and state agencies when they were confronted with
charges of racism and Islamophobic.
So, they were afraid of being called racist or
Islamophobic, the Democrat politicians, and standing up to
their base, so they just turned a blind eye.
Mr. Langworthy. And with this, you know, Somali population,
this is part of the Democrat Party's base at this point in
Minnesota. Isn't that correct?
Ms. Robbins. Largely.
Mr. Langworthy. Largely. So, they were basically renting a
constituency through the fraud at the expense of the taxpayer.
That is wild.
Ms. Robbins. Yes.
Mr. Langworthy. You do not have to answer that. I think
that we all know the answer to that.
And, Representative Hudson, there is a childcare
affordability crisis right now, and young families in my
district and across the country are making really tough choices
to afford quality care. What impact has this fraud had on
waitlists and staffing and simply making resources available
for legitimate childcare centers in your constituency?
Mr. Hudson. Well, as Mr. Finstad pointed out, in Minnesota,
there has been a longstanding attack upon family based
childcare where folks would run businesses out of their homes.
And when you are out of the city, that is usually the type of
childcare you would have access to.
And so in a climate where there have already been
reductions in the availability of people to be able to receive
childcare, again, going back to the firefighter putting out the
fire analogy, yes, it causes damage with the water, but it is
necessary in this time even though it hurts because of the
blaze that Walz allowed to explode.
Mr. Langworthy. It is amazing. This $9 billion in fraud
went uninvestigated, ignored, swept aside for years, not a
single rogue bureaucrat, but by every Democrat official in the
State of Minnesota who presented with clear, damning evidence
chose to look the other way blindly.
I cannot wait to see Tim Walz and Keith Ellison in those
seats where you are sitting right now. But to everyone here, we
cannot ignore who truly benefited from this failure beyond the
perpetrators of the fraud. And as Governor Tim Walz and the
entire Democratic leadership throughout a constituency's votes
that they bought by looking the other way and letting this
happen, they effectively green-lit this theft of billions of
dollars in taxpayer money through years of willful ignorance.
And every single American taxpayer deserves full
accountability, because this is not limited to just Minnesota.
We have a lot of other states to start to look at. I mean, all
the big blue handout states--I live in one of them--we have to
open the Pandora's Box here and find out how much money has
been siphoned off from America's taxpayers.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Well said.
The Chair recognizes Congressman Jack from Georgia.
Mr. Jack. I also want to echo my support for Congressman
Langworthy's remarks. Certainly associate myself with them. It
is all political, and it is very unfortunate.
I want to thank the witnesses for testifying today, and I
would also like to thank our Chairman for convening this
hearing so expeditiously. Less than two weeks have passed since
the Nation was caught in this just horrible, horrible crisis
watching this unfold, and here we are with action today.
We have talked a lot about the $9 billion in fraud. I like
quantifying it because, you know, more often than not, we throw
around the biggest numbers here in Washington and sometimes it
is hard to--sometimes it is hard to quantify it.
It takes about a second to count a dollar bill, and that is
nine billion seconds, means that if we started counting in
1741, 285 years ago, we would just now be finishing $9 billion
worth of a count. So, take that data point to heart.
But I want to concentrate my line of questioning today on
the whistleblowers. And I know a lot has been discussed, but as
we near the end of this hearing, I want to start with
Representative Rarick. And it is our understanding, as has been
discussed today, the Department of Human Services
whistleblowers claim that they have faced retaliation from
senior Minnesota Department of Human Services officials,
including appointees on behalf of Governor Walz. And I just
want you to explain to us again how these administrators have
retaliated against whistleblowers.
Ms. Rarick. Right. So, the threats were pretty intense. And
as I have said, their jobs were threatened, they had strange
questions demanding answers about where their children went to
school, where their bus stops were. They were told that if you
do not do what we tell you to do or not do what we tell you to
do, you will lose your job, you will lose that job with cause,
which means, in Minnesota, that you do not get unemployment
insurance, you also could lose your retirement plan.
Also, you would be blacklisted off of all state agencies.
And I would note that that also includes Hennepin and Ramsey
Counties, our biggest counties, because they are Democrat run,
and maybe even the University of Minnesota. I am going to throw
that in too.
Probably some of our biggest cities, like Rochester,
Duluth, that are very Democrat leaning. So, it is a very vast
threat. They have also threatened them with sort of a vague
military intelligence.
So, there was one--I have the email right here that was
just submitted, I believe, by Congresswoman Fischbach, and it
says things like, I would like to use my former colleagues in
the Army to locate where you are using your IP address, and I
do not have that--he says, I do not have that technology
anymore, but I can get it in a heartbeat.
So, there were vague threats, and I believe there was more
threats beyond that, but it was very expansive threats.
Mr. Jack. Well, I am glad you mentioned that. I actually
wanted to talk about that. As I understand it, it was the, and
I think, to your point, she entered it into the record. But the
interim Deputy Assistant Commissioner of Operations--for the
folks watching at home--of the Department of Human Services in
Minnesota allegedly was trying to use a contact in the military
during the Biden Administration to track whistleblowers'
whereabouts.
I presume this is illegal under Minnesota law, but would
love for you to indulge us as to whether or not it is.
Ms. Rarick. You know, I do not know for sure if it is
illegal in Minnesota. If it is not, it certainly should be. I
think most of what happened to the whistleblowers is illegal.
But the control over the state, the control over the largest
counties, the control over some of our largest cities is
controlled by Democrats, and so this was allowed to continue.
Mr. Jack. And to the best of your knowledge, whether it be
Governor Dayton or Governor Pawlenty before, were
whistleblowers treated in such a manner under those
administrations or is this unique to the Walz Administration?
Ms. Rarick. I do not have any reports particularly through
the Pawlenty Administration. I know that fraud was beginning to
be uncovered at the very tail end of his Administration but
mostly under Democrat rule. But I do not know of this kind of
retaliation in any other administration besides the Walz
Administration.
Mr. Jack. Thank you for sharing that with us.
And I just want to close out, some Minnesota officials
claim they had no knowledge of this fraud, just found out about
it, which I think we all know is demonstrably false. But I am
just curious, could you elaborate for this Committee on the
many ways by which Governor Walz could have been made aware of
this? I mean, he certainly was made aware of this, turned a
blind eye. I just want to make sure that we understand, as a
Committee, the many methods by which he was informed.
Ms. Rarick. So, there were a multitude of legislative
auditor reports, so much so that I had read into the record
what Jim Nobles, the last legislative auditor before Judy
Randall--he had been the legislative auditor for 38 years, and
he was so disgusted by the actions of Governor Walz that he
wrote a couple comments in the Star Tribune saying that they
literally just needed to do basic financial controls, and it is
behooving to him--or confounding to him, I should say, as to
why they did not.
So, he is a very much a nonpartisan, nonpolitical person,
and he was shocked at what he found.
Mr. Jack. I want to thank all of our witnesses for
testimony today.
And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
And I believe our last questioner is our last waive-on from
Minnesota, Representative Stauber.
Mr. Stauber. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
And after all the--after all the conversations today, you
wonder why the Department of Justice cannot get the voter rolls
out of Minnesota and the Secretary of Ag cannot get the SNAP
benefits from Minnesota to make sure there is no fraud.
Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for holding this hearing.
And I also want to thank our witnesses, whose years of hard
work in Minnesota are exposing these revelations, are finally
garnering the national attention that they deserve.
And finally, I want to thank the numerous whistleblowers
who are exposing Tim Walz' failures as Governor. As we have
heard today, these brave men and women are risking their
careers to reveal the truth, while Tim Walz is actively
attempting to threaten and suppress them. I am here to say it
will not work, and we stand with the whistleblowers.
I am going to shift gears and ask you about Minnesota's new
paid family leave program that the Governor has been touting
during this fraud scandal.
Representative Rarick, under the paid family leave program
in Minnesota, who can I take leave or care for, and is it
limited to family or dependents?
Ms. Rarick. Thank you, Congressman Stauber. No, it is not
limited to just family. One would think that it was, but there
is something that the Democrats built into the law that said,
if I set up an expectation of care, with no documentation, by
the way, no attestation, absolutely no documentation, then that
is good enough in Minnesota.
Mr. Stauber. So, I could take care of somebody that is just
a friend of mine?
Ms. Rarick. Congressman, absolutely.
Mr. Stauber. So, it does not matter if they are related, if
I have had a past relationship or closer, I can just go and ask
my--or tell my employer I am leaving for 12 weeks or eight
weeks and get 90 percent of my pay and take care of that
person, right?
Ms. Rarick. You could do that, yes. And so, it is a sliding
scale. It is not all of the people would get 90 percent, but
the vast majority, I believe, depending on your salary, would
get 90 percent. And, yes, you could go take care of anybody
because there is no documentation.
Mr. Stauber. What kind of proof of care would I have to
provide to the state to demonstrate that I am actually taking
care of you during my paid family leave?
Ms. Rarick. No, there is absolutely no documentation. So,
you have to provide and prove absolutely nothing.
Mr. Stauber. So, if I do not show up and take care of who I
say I am taking care of, nothing is going to happen to me?
Ms. Rarick. That is correct. You could go to Puerto Rico,
you could go to Istanbul. It does not matter where you go or
what you do, there is no requirement to document.
Mr. Stauber. So, I can say that I am just caring for
anyone, and the State of Minnesota would require my boss to
give me a 12-week vacation without any proof?
Ms. Rarick. That is exactly how the Democrats wrote that
law, that is correct.
Mr. Stauber. Is a licensed American doctor required to
certify that this person needs my immediate and uninterrupted
care?
Ms. Rarick. So, the people--the medical professionals, it
is a very, very broad category. And, no, they do not have to be
an American, midwife, doctor, chiropractor, orthopedic surgeon,
none of those things. It can be in any country.
Mr. Stauber. Does the state require the person I am
claiming to care for to be present in Minnesota or even in the
United States of America?
Ms. Rarick. No, Congressman. That person could be anywhere.
Mr. Stauber. Somalia?
Ms. Rarick. Absolutely.
Mr. Stauber. So, you are telling me I can get a foreign
doctor without an American license to just check a box, and I
get a state-mandated paid vacation to Somalia or any other
country. Is that correct?
Ms. Rarick. That is how the law was written by Democrats in
Minnesota, yes.
Mr. Stauber. This is incredibly concerning.
With what little time I have left, I want to open this up
to the entire panel. Is there anything else you would like to
address regarding the paid family leave program? And I will
start with Representative Robbins.
Ms. Robbins. Thank you. We always talk about how important
it is to stop fraud on the front end. So, our committee held a
hearing on this paid family leave law that took effect January
1 back in November. And we grilled the Department of Employment
and Economic Development trying to get them to shore up some of
these definitions, trying to put some guardrails on this
program. And they just assured us over and over, they have got
it covered, there will not be any fraud, do not worry about it.
But I have already had whistleblower reports since the program
started January 1 of fraud.
So, we are going to have to get a handle on this, and I
think it is the next fraud frontier in Minnesota.
Mr. Stauber. Representative Hudson, anything you would like
to add on the paid family leave program in Minnesota?
Mr. Hudson. Just to put points that Representative Rarick
put as concisely as possible. It is humorous but true that you
could quite literally have a witch doctor approve your vacation
to Somalia. That is how loose the rules are written.
Mr. Stauber. Listen, I am proud to be from Minnesota. I was
born, raised, and living in Minnesota, raising my family there.
This is going to stop, and you folks are at the front of it.
Minnesotans have had enough. We are hardworking people. We will
not allow our tax dollars to go to fraud. And I commend that
the three of you and other folks back in Minnesota that want to
stop this.
And, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
Ms. Pressley. Mr. Chair, I seek recognition to make motion
for a subpoena.
Chairman Comer. State your motion.
Ms. Pressley. I would like to make a motion to subpoena the
Department of Homeland Security for all documents and footage
related to the murder of a woman by ICE that took place in
Minneapolis, Minnesota, today.
Chairman Comer. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance till the end of today's hearing.
And we will prepare to close now. That concludes all of our
questions.
In closing, I want to again thank our witnesses for being
here today. Welcome to the House Oversight Committee. This was
a pretty cordial committee hearing for us, so we--and very
important.
Before we adjourn, I want to yield to Ranking Member Garcia
for his closing remarks, and then I will give my closing
remarks.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Just before we close, I also want to mention the news of
this horrific killing in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We are talking
about Minnesota right now. This was a killing by an ICE agent.
There are videos that are now online. There is testimony that
is being brought to light. It is horrific. I encourage folks to
watch those videos and see what has happened for themselves.
And I am hopeful that this Committee investigates this incident
and that we have full accountability. So, I want to thank
Representative Pressley for her motion.
Now, we have heard a lot today and particularly a lot of
bigoted smears against an entire community. Now, some
Republican Members of this Committee said or implied that
somehow all Somalis are now suspected fraudsters or terrorists.
Now, Somali Americans are overwhelmingly U.S. citizens with
the same rights as any Member of this Committee. And the rest
and a vast majority of them are just hardworking folks who are
trying to take care of their families and playing by the rules.
And we should be clear that if we want to investigate
fraud, we should start by investigating 1600 Pennsylvania. We
all know that fraud is a betrayal of the public's trust, and
Democrats agree that we must be rigorous in conducting
oversight wherever it exists.
But conducting rigorous oversight does not somehow exclude
the President or the administration or the DOJ and what is
happening there or the rampant crimes that are happening right
now all across other agencies. We know that holding fraudsters
accountable does not mean granting them full and unconditional
Presidential pardons because they are wealthy supporters of the
President.
President Trump last year gave out 25 get out of jail free
cards from fraudsters alone, 25. He pardoned them from paying
back more than $1 billion they owed to their victims. This is
wrong and it is un-American. We have to make sure the victims
of fraud are not forced to suffer any more.
And we also know that cutting off childcare and family
support for thousands of innocent families is not the way to
protect victims. In fact, it punishes victims. These attacks
are harming parents, children, and childcare providers as we
speak.
Many childcare providers, not just in Minnesota but across
the country, are receiving death threats. Childcare centers
have been vandalized, and the children's information has been
stolen in some cases. Childcare providers in states across the
country have reported that they will have to close if they lose
Federal funding.
Parents are saying they have to quit their jobs because
they will no longer be able to have childcare for their
families and while they are at work. These cuts will make it
harder for families to put food on the table as grocery costs
continue to increase. We should be protecting those families
and children who are being hurt by all of this.
Let us go after the big fraud in our government, and that
includes the fraud and corruption at the White House.
And with that, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Ranking Member yields back.
And I will conclude by saying today we have heard about the
shocking, rampant, and long ongoing fraud in Minnesota's social
service programs. This fraud has shocked and outraged the
American people, and rightfully so. The scale of this fraud is
not just something we have seen before, and I am pretty
confident this is just the tip of the iceberg.
The Trump Administration has taken a whole-of-government
approach to rooting out fraud. The Trump Administration has
already uncovered at least $9 billion in fraud. These criminals
have stolen taxpayer dollars from all Americans to fund lavish
cars, homes, and vacations here in the United States and
abroad. Some of the stolen money is even allegedly going
overseas to support terrorists.
Our witnesses--the Chairwoman and two members of the
Minnesota House of Representatives Fraud Prevention and State
Agency Oversight Policy Committee--have been sounding the alarm
on this fraud for years. Democrats have attempted to distract
the American people from this widespread fraud and accuse
investigators of racism. This should not be a partisan issue,
but they clearly do not take this issue seriously. Either they
do not take fraud seriously or they just do not care. It is one
or the other.
The most vulnerable are suffering as a result. These
programs are meant to feed needy kids, provide services to
autistic children, house low-income and disabled Americans, and
provide healthcare to vulnerable Medicaid recipients. The Walz
Administration has kept this money flowing for years,
oftentimes behind closed doors.
When whistleblowers came forward about this fraud, the Walz
Administration retaliated against employees who warned and
alerted the Administration to fraud occurring within these
social programs.
There are supposed to be checks and balances in our system
to prevent this, both on the Federal and state levels. Every
agency that lost hundreds of millions and even billions of
dollars has well-paid staff that are supposed to prevent this.
That is their job. They are Inspectors General. That is their
job. They have huge staff. We have jurisdiction over the IGs.
Many have failed, and they need to be held accountable.
Now, I want to close by saying we have had four Minnesota
Republicans to waive on this Committee. If there was a
Committee hearing about fraud in Kentucky and I was not on the
Committee, I would want to waive on the Committee. But not a
single Democrat requested to waive on the Committee from the
State of Minnesota.
And there is one member of the Minnesota delegation,
Representative Omar, who coincidentally is of Somali descent,
did not request to be in this hearing. I will publicly invite
her to come to the next hearing. And she does not have to, but
she can request to be waived on, and I will gladly grant that
request.
I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an
application unsealed by the United States District Court for
the District of Minnesota on December 18, 2025, for law
enforcement to execute a search warrant on Ultimate Home Health
Services, LLC, for defrauding Minnesota's Independent Community
Supports Medicaid Program. This fraudulent provider's
negligence resulted in the death of a man who suffered from
severe mental health. I referenced this tragedy in my opening
statement.
We are not going to--this is not it. This is just the
beginning. We want to again thank you for being here. We are
going to work with you to see that these Federal funds go to
people in Minnesota who they are supposed to go to. I support
President Trump putting a halt on all Federal funding to these
government social programs in Minnesota until we get a handle
on where this is going.
And thank you all for doing that. We will work with you and
do everything we can to hold people accountable and to stop the
fraud and get the backs of the American taxpayers.
Pursuant to the previous order, the Chair declares the
Committee in recess, subject to the call of the Chair. We plan
to reconvene at 4 p.m.
The Committee now stands in recess, and the witnesses may
be excused. Thank you all.
[Recess.]
Chairman Comer. The Committee will reconvene. I know we
have votes very quickly on the House Floor. If we do not get
this done, we are going to have to come back and vote after the
Floor votes, however long that lasts.
So, the first motion is the Luna motion to subpoena Neville
Singham. It is now brought under consideration.
Does any Member wish to speak on the motion?
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment to the
motion.
Chairman Comer. State your amendment.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. Pursuant to clause 2(k)(6) of House
Rule XI, the Committee shall subpoena Les Wexner to sit for a
deposition before the House Committee on Oversight and
Government Reform.
And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to be recognized to explain
the amendment briefly.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Explain your amendment.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This is an amendment, of course, to Representative Luna's
motion. Les Wexner is a long-time benefactor of Jeffrey
Epstein, and at one point was Epstein's only documented client.
Maria Farmer was abused in a house attached to Wexner's Ohio
property and guarded by Wexner's security staff.
Virginia Giuffre named Wexner in a deposition as one of the
men she was trafficked to. Wexner also paid for Epstein's home
in New York City. There is probably no one more important as
relates to the financing and the work of this investigation,
which both sides of the aisle are interested in, have voted to
move forward, than ensuring that we bring Mr. Wexner in to come
and be deposed by this Committee.
Public reporting has documented their longstanding ties. He
should answer our questions in a nonpartisan way to get the
truth to the Epstein investigation, and that is the motion.
Chairman Comer. Would you--let us see. So, I guess we are
going to debate the amendment to the motion.
Would you yield the question?
Mr. Garcia. Sure.
Chairman Comer. We are serious about the Epstein
investigation, and I think you have seen a lot of our Members
stand up and make it very clear they want to get to the bottom
of Epstein. Nobody wants to do it more than I do.
We also want to hear from Bill Clinton, and you all--we
voted in a bipartisan manner to subpoena Bill Clinton, but we
have not gotten confirmation for President Clinton to come in
for a transcribed interview or now a deposition.
So, do you all--are you all going to help us try to get
Clinton in? I figure you guys have his number--I do not.
Mr. Garcia. I have been very clear, and I think the
Committee agrees, that we are willing to talk to anyone,
including the former President, if they have information
regarding the Epstein investigation.
And so, the motion in front of us right now is on Les
Wexner, who is central to the Epstein investigation and
probably knows more than anyone else about the financing and
has been named by survivors.
That is in addition to Luna's motion, which if part of the
amendment, we can certainly take that vote.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Any other discussion on the Garcia
amendment? Ms. Stansbury.
Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to echo my support for this subpoena and say
two things: One, this is not a quid pro quo. This is an
investigation. And so, we will subpoena and support subpoenas
for any coconspirator and anyone who has evidence that is
important in this case.
Second, I want to note that this individual is actually
named in the Department of Justice emails that were released in
the partial release by the Administration as one of the ten
coconspirators the Department of Justice was investigating and
was actually named.
And finally, I just want to say this, Mr. Chairman: The
Department of Justice has released, as we understand it, only
one percent of the files in their possession. And I think we
really want to know why this Committee is not demanding that
DOJ come in front of us immediately to account for this.
And, with that, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Any other--Mrs. Luna, your request to speak
on the Garcia amendment to your motion.
Mrs. Luna. Yes. I think that this is a sound motion for
subpoena because Les Wexner has been named by victims and also,
too, is in a number of documentaries.
But I would like to at least offer my opinion and refute
what Ms. Stansbury said regarding some of the files that have
been released regarding some of the files that have been
released. There have been thousands of files released, so much
so that, yes, there have been redactions, but most of the
redactions, to my knowledge, have been pertaining to either
Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) materials and/or victim
information.
I know that in one instance there was potentially a breach
of that, of which the DOJ immediately corrected. But we have
also been working, at least my office has, with the Department
of Justice to make sure that victims have received their direct
information.
So, please understand, at least from my perspective, that
it is not our opinion that there have been a holdback. I do
know that the documents are on a rolling basis as well, similar
to the other declassified files. However, aside from that, I do
support Garcia's amendment and I would encourage my colleagues
to do so.
Chairman Comer. All right. Any other discussion on the
Garcia amendment? Seeing none, all those in favor of the
amendment, of the Garcia amendment to the Luna motion signify
by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, say no.
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it and the amendment is agreed to.
Mr. Garcia. We want a recorded vote. Actually, no, we do
not.
Chairman Comer. Now, the debate is on the--does any Member
wish to speak on the Luna motion, as amended?
Representative Luna.
Mrs. Luna. Just if someone is tracking, Neville Singham was
referred to the Department of Justice, I believe, for Foreign
Agents Registration Act (FARA) violations by then-Senator Rubio
when he served on the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Neville Singham, regardless of what you might feel about
your colleagues, has been a mechanism and funding arm of the
Chinese Communist Party. He is not a registered agent by FARA,
and has been connected to a number of riots, to include the
anti-ICE riots being funded in Los Angeles as well as a group
that was tied to and being investigated for the assassination
of Charlie Kirk, known as--I think it was a group of Socialism
and Liberation, and then also to--has been avoiding our
requests for him to come bring information to Congress.
He is definitely someone that is anti-American in ideology.
And regardless of where you might stand, even on topics like
Israel versus Palestine, is funding certain groups that
actually sow discord in this country with no efforts to
actually resolve the issues, only to get us to fight one
another.
So, I would encourage you all, at least if you do not
politically agree with one another, to at least respect the
fact that he is a known foreign agent to China, has not been
registered as such, has been made to fund riots and has been
known to be the result of many of our own Americans being
targeted with violence. And as a result of that, I do think
that he should face subpoena.
In the event that he is not subpoenaed or that he does not
answer the subpoena, I will be making a motion for inherent
contempt, and I encourage my colleagues to support this motion.
Chairman Comer. Luna yields back.
Min, Representative Min.
Mr. Min. Thank you. Being new to this Committee, I guess I
am just curious why this is happening in this hearing, and why
we did not have a chance to review the subpoena with some
notice. You know, as much as I want to appreciate what you say
and just take it at face value, we are all learning this right
now, and it does not really give us a lot of time to do our
research to determine the validity of your subpoena request.
And so, I just really--from a procedural perspective, I am just
curious if this is normal.
Mrs. Luna. If I can respond and answer.
Chairman Comer. Do you yield to Luna or Garcia?
Mr. Min. I yield to Garcia first.
Mr. Garcia. No, I just want to add that I understand his
concerns. I am going to recommend that we vote yes on the Luna
motion. I think the Representative made clear her support for
the deposition that we are going to have with Mr. Wexner, and
so, that is going to be my recommendation for our Committee.
Mrs. Luna. And if I could just answer the question. So, as
part of the rules, if subpoenas are not sent in the traditional
fashion through the Chairman, individual Members can actually
make motions where the Committee as a whole can vote on it.
And so, because Neville Singham has been avoiding receipt
of our request for him to come in and just give basic
information, it is because he has been known to be funding
these groups that are literally causing us to eat each other
alive, even sometimes within the House of Representatives.
I do think that he needs to answer for that. And so, to
answer your question, that is why I made the motion today.
Chairman Comer. Any other Members wish to speak?
Seeing none, all those in favor of the Luna motion, as
amended by the Garcia amendment, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, say no.
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it and the motion, as amended, is agreed to.
Next up is the Luna motion number two to subpoena Jonathan
Greenblatt.
Does any Member wish to speak on the motion? Mrs. Luna.
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment.
Chairman Comer. We will do your amendment first. Okay.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. I have an amendment to
Representative Luna. Pursuant to clause 2(k)(6) of House Rule
XI, the Committee shall subpoena Governor Tate Reeves of
Mississippi to testify in a hearing before the House Committee
on Oversight and Government Reform.
And I have some comments if you would like to recognize
those now.
Chairman Comer. All right. State your comments.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to recognize a motion. We, of course, had a big
hearing today. And we certainly should not just be concerned
with fraud that could be happening in states with Democratic
Governors but also those with Republican Governors. Fraud
should be looked at anywhere it happens.
The Wall Street Journal on Monday reported a massive
Mississippi welfare scandal. Mississippi has seen years of
scandals under multiple Governors, but we have been silent as a
Committee. We did not have any witnesses from Mississippi here
today and Oversight Republicans are not calling in Governor
Tate.
So, this is an opportunity for the American people to hear
about fraud wherever it occurs, and this motion will do just
that. And I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Now, the Chair recognize Mrs. Luna to
speak on the Garcia amendment to your motion number two.
Mrs. Luna. Fraud is fraud. I support this. I encourage my
colleagues to do it. It does not matter if they are Republican
or not. If he is guilty of it, bring him in.
Chairman Comer. Any other debate?
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, I am wondering if the gentlemen
would allow me to move to amend his amendment to include the
Governor of Arizona, who admitted that they had $2.5 billion
worth of fraud in Medicaid fraud just a year ago. The Attorney
General did.
Chairman Comer. Okay. This is where my Future Farmers of
America (FFA) parliamentary procedure came in place. Ellie, you
can back me up. Amendment--there is a motion to amend the
amendment. Do we go into that a motion? All right.
So, Mr. Biggs has made an amendment to the Garcia amendment
to the Luna motion. Does anyone wish to speak on the Biggs
amendment to the amendment? And his is to subpoena the Arizona
Governor. Right. Okay.
Mr. Garcia. Look, I am glad that the Representative wants
to subpoena his opponent in the Governor's race. Just to be
clear.
Mr. Biggs. If it makes you happy, I will say not her. Let
us bring in the AG.
Mr. Garcia. No, I mean just to be clear.
Mr. Biggs. Bring in the AG.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir, since I have the floor, I just
want to say that my amendment is clear. We heard from one state
today. I think it is important that we hear from Governor Tate
of Mississippi. That is the amendment that I am going to let
stand as presented. If other motions are made, we can vote on
those as appropriate.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs to specify
his amendment to the amendment on who we are----
Mr. Biggs. Yes, thanks, Mr. Chairman.
I am happy to reword my amendment to instead of the
Governor of Arizona if you want the Attorney General, because
the Attorney General is the one who stood up a year and a half
ago and said that she discovered $2.5 billion worth of waste in
Arizona's Medicaid program, and that we need to find out more
about that. So, I am content with doing that.
And I just find it hilariously hypocritical to say, well,
we want the dude from Mississippi because he is a Republican.
But when you want to bring in someone from my home state, not
even running against me, okay, that is why I moved it. And to
say, well, we cannot do that. We cannot do that because that
would be--I do not know.
It is just--because this is the cycle you guys chose to get
on. She has admitted--she has admitted, the Attorney General,
that there is $2.5 billion worth of waste in the Medicaid
program. I submitted that for the record earlier today. And,
well, let us have at it.
Ms. Crockett. Will the gentleman yield?
Chairman Comer. Okay. Okay. So, the amendment to the
amendment is to subpoena the Arizona Attorney General. Does
anyone wish to speak on the amendment to the amendment? Mr.?
Mr. Garcia. I will speak after Ms. Crockett.
Chairman Comer. Ms. Crockett.
Ms. Crockett. I just wanted to clarify, because I think the
gentleman from Arizona said that this was over a year ago, a
year and a half ago, if I am correct. Is that correct?
Mr. Biggs. Are you asking me to yield? Yes, I will yield.
What is the question?
Ms. Crockett. So, you said over a year and a half ago?
Mr. Biggs. No, it was--I believe it was last summer, about
a year ago.
Ms. Crockett. Okay. So, about a year ago, there was an
opportunity for you as a Representative and presumably before
you were actually running for office. I think the concern is
about using Federal dollars to further political aspirations.
And as someone who was representing Arizona, there should
have been an opportunity for you to do something to try to
subpoena. You could have tried to open an investigation.
We know that the Republicans are the ones that control this
Committee and have controlled this Committee for some time. So,
I just wanted to say that I definitely am opposed to this
particular portion of the--I guess it is the amendment to the
amendment.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Fallon to speak on
the amendment to the amendment.
Mr. Fallon. Yes, I support the amendment to the amendment
because, I mean, just--a lot of us served in the state
legislature, and I did for eight years in the House and Senate
in Texas.
This is a systemic problem across all states. I want to--I
mean, we are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars, of
criminals and scum bags stealing money that is not going to
where it is intended. So, I do not give a rat's nuggets if it
is Arizona, Mississippi, wherever. We need to be rooting this
stuff out. So, I am fully in support of Mr. Biggs, and I think
your efforts are noble.
I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Any other Members wish to----
Mr. Fallon. Or I yield to Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. Yes, I appreciate the gentleman for yielding. I
do find it rich to say, oh, you should have subpoenaed this a
year ago. Just like you guys could have subpoenaed anybody you
wanted to a year ago as well.
So, let me just add to this by saying our current Governor
is being investigated, and I do not want to get into that
because she is currently being investigated for corruption and
abuse.--I am not trying to get into that.
What I am trying to get into is what I thought--I thought
we would reached some comity here that we are going to be going
after fraud wherever it sits in these social welfare programs.
And so, you did not like it. You thought I might be doing
it for political purposes. It is not for political purposes.
This is because Arizona has a systemic problem in their
Medicaid program of $2.5 billion fraud that the Democrat
Attorney General pointed out. Let us have her come in and
explain how this has happened and what needs to be done to fix
the systemic problems in Arizona. Maybe that would be helpful
to fix the problems nationwide. That is all.
I yield back to the gentleman from Texas. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman from Texas.
Mr. Fallon. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Garcia for the
amendment on the amendment.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. Just a final comment on this. I
oppose the amendment. And here is--to be very clear, today we
talked about five states, all states with Democratic Governors.
Focused on one. The motion that we are making as an amendment
is very clear. It is to bring in one Republican Governor in
comparison to what the Majority has proposed in the past, and
that is where we are leaving it.
And so, at a minimum, the Majority should want to bring in
one Republican compared to the six that we discussed today. And
so, we are going to--I am going to close.
Chairman Comer. Would you yield?
Mr. Garcia. Sure.
Chairman Comer. So, I am fine if there is fraud in any
state--will you work with us to get Walz back in here so he can
have an opportunity to defend what was stated today and to work
with us on that?
Mr. Garcia. I think that Governor Walz right now is looking
at coming in to the Committee. Obviously, I am happy to have
anyone in front of us that is willing to explain.
Chairman Comer. Well, a lot of people are looking, but, I
mean, are they going to do it?
Mr. Garcia. We are willing--Oversight Democrats are willing
to talk to any person, any Governor, any person that can be in
front of us that we can explain issues that are important to
the American public. We have no issue with Governor Walz coming
in to testify.
Chairman Comer. Any other Members seek recognition on the
Biggs amendment to the Garcia amendment?
Mr. Perry.
Mr. Perry. Mr. Chairman, if it will make it less political,
if the maker of the secondary amendment would like me to offer
it in his name, coming from nowhere close to Arizona, to
subpoena the Arizona Attorney General regarding her statements
about known fraud in Arizona, I would be happy to do that.
Mr. Biggs. I will let you do it. Have at it.
Mr. Perry. Well, then, since he is willing to do it, we can
then----
Chairman Comer. He would have to--Mr. Biggs would have to
withdraw his amendment to the amendment.
Mrs. Luna. Can we get back to Greenblatt?
Mr. Biggs. Then I will withdraw and leave it in your
capable hands.
Mr. Perry. The gentleman has withdrawn. And then we can--I
will make the same motion to subpoena, as a secondary amendment
to the primary amendment to the primary resolution, the
Attorney General from Arizona regarding her position and
statements on fraud in Arizona in the Medicaid program.
Chairman Comer. I want to make sure everybody understands
this. Representative Biggs has withdrawn his amendment to the
amendment, and now Mr. Perry has filed an amendment to the
amendment in the same language to subpoena the Arizona Attorney
General.
Does everyone understand that?
Okay. Now, do any Democrats--Mr. Min, you have had your
hand up over there.
Mr. Min. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I appreciated our
conversation earlier today when you expressed very clearly that
this should not be a partisan committee, that we should go
after fraud in all forms, and at which point you also agreed
that having some kind of investigative hearing into Mississippi
might be appropriate.
I appreciate your support of this amendment to the bill. If
we are going to have amendments to amendments, I guess the one
question I have, and this might be a proposal, the Inspectors
General were all fired at the beginning of Trump's term in his
second term. Those are the primary watchdogs for protecting the
American taxpayer from waste, fraud, and abuse of this kind.
So, why are we not calling in Pam Bondi and anybody else
who might have had knowledge and input into the decision to
fire these Inspectors General as well as their staffs?
And so, I guess I would propose an amendment to the
amendment to the amendment that we have a hearing and subpoena
Pam Bondi and others in this regard.
Chairman Comer. Are you making an official motion to amend
the amendment?
Mr. Min. Yes, I am.
Chairman Comer. And what is your motion?
Mr. Min. That we subpoena Pam Bondi.
Chairman Comer. You are making a motion to subpoena Pam
Bondi.
Mr. Min. And anyone else with knowledge around the
decisions and input on the decisions to fire and terminate the
Inspectors General.
Chairman Comer. Now, I want to remind everybody they have
called votes, and I have a feeling this is going to keep going
on and on and on. But you have made a motion to amend the
amendment to the amendment. Yes, you can only do that twice.
That is a parliamentary rule. Okay. So, you are done speaking.
All right.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Donalds.
Mr. Donalds. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee
recess--or the Committee--do you want to call the question or
do you just want to recess so we can go vote and come back and
finish this up?
Chairman Comer. Okay, because we have votes called.
Mr. Donalds. I am flexible either way.
Chairman Comer. Right. I think that is a fair--they called
votes about ten minutes ago.
So, pursuant to the previous order, the Committee will
recess until immediately following the votes.
The Committee stands in recess.
[Recess.]
Chairman Comer. The Committee will reconvene. And the Chair
recognizes Mrs. Luna to talk about her motion that has been
amended a couple of times.
The Chair recognizes Mrs. Luna.
Mrs. Luna. So, in the name of avoiding watering down our
initial amendment, I am going to withdraw the initial motion,
Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Without objection, so ordered.
Okay. So, now the Chair recognizes Mrs. Luna for Luna
motion three.
Mrs. Luna. I think that was a Mace motion, sir. Oh, we are
doing the next one? Okay.
Chairman Comer. So, all right. We are going to go ahead and
do--the Chair recognizes Mrs. Luna from Florida for her third
motion.
Mrs. Luna. Yes. I do encourage all of my colleagues to
support this. As you know, with what happened with recent
events in Venezuela, there was a leak of classified information
as well as resulting in one of the journalists that obtained
that information--and I will say credits to the news agencies
for realizing that American lives could be put in jeopardy if
this leaked information was published. They did put the kibosh
on it.
But after the fact, Seth Hart proceeded to dox the Delta
Force commander, or a Delta Force commander, associated or
thinking that they were associated with the mission in
Venezuela, resulting in his children and his family being
harassed and targeted, not just by activists here in the United
States, but potentially by narco-terrorists.
I do encourage the entire Committee to issue the subpoena
of Seth Harp, as he should be held accountable for potentially
leaking classified information and doxxing servicemembers,
putting their lives and their family members at jeopardy by
narco-terrorists.
Chairman Comer. Okay. So, Mrs. Luna has made that motion.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Garcia for an amendment.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I do have an amendment to the motion made by Representative
Luna. And to make that amendment, I just want to say, pursuant
to clause 2(k)(6) of House Rule XI, the Committee shall
subpoena co-executors of the Epstein estate, Darren Indyke and
Richard Kahn to sit for depositions before the House Committee
on Oversight and Government Reform.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to explain the amendment.
Chairman Comer. Proceed.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I know as you and so many others now--and surely Mrs.
Luna is aware--Darren Indyke and Richard Kahn were Jeffrey
Epstein's longtime lawyer and accountant.
Few people know more about what Epstein did and who he met
with, and certainly his crimes, then the co-executors and
beneficiaries of Epstein's estate.
We have heard directly from survivors, as we all know,
about both of those gentlemen. And to get justice for the
survivors, which I think all of us on this Committee want to
get, we certainly should hear from these two men.
And, with that, I would like to both support Representative
Luna's motion and make this amendment.
Chairman Comer. Does anyone else seek recognition on the
Garcia amendment to the Luna motion?
The Chair recognizes Mrs. Luna.
Mrs. Luna. I also encourage my colleagues to support this.
These individuals can potentially give the Oversight Committee
access to financial records and potentially name names.
Chairman Comer. Okay. Any other Member seek recognition?
Seeing--okay. Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire. Yes, I just want to speak to the amendment.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead. Proceed. McGuire.
Mr. McGuire. Just I think we all know in the military it
should be apolitical. If somebody saved your life on the
battlefield, you would not care if they were Black or White,
Democrat, Republican, Independent, male or female. It should be
apolitical.
And some people risk their time, some people risk their
money, but our men and women in the military oftentimes risk
their life or give their life for their freedom. And doxxing
anyone in the military for any reason, it just goes against the
founding principles of this country. It goes against everything
that is great about our country, and it is totally wrong. And
we should bring this guy in and hold him accountable.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
Any other Members seek recognition?
Seeing none, we are going to vote by voice on the Garcia
amendment to the Luna motion.
All those in favor of the Garcia amendment, signify by
saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, say no.
[No response.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it and the Garcia amendment to the Luna motion is agreed to.
Now, would anyone want to discuss the Luna motion, as
amended?
Mr. Garcia. I would just like to add, Mr. Chair, that I
support and certainly recommend House Democrats to support the
Luna amendment.
Chairman Comer. Any other Member seek recognition?
Seeing none, all those in favor of the Luna motion, as
amended with the Garcia amendment, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it and the motion is agreed to.
The Committee will now proceed with the Mace motion to
subpoena the Department of I will recognize Ms. Mace to explain
her motion.
Ms. Mace. Yes. This is to subpoena the immigration records
of Ilhan Omar and her alleged brother-husband, and another
husband whose names I cannot pronounce. The Committee on
Oversight and Government Reform is the principal oversight
Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives and has broad
authority to investigate any manner at any time under House
Rule X.
And this particularly, the legislative thing that this
would inform would identify reforms regarding immigration fraud
and denaturalization processes, potential criminal liability,
things that we need to address statutorily and legislatively,
Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Thank you.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Garcia to speak on the Mace
amendment.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do have an amendment
to the motion made by Representative Mace.
Chairman Comer. State your amendment.
Mr. Garcia. At the end of the motion, I would like to add:
Pursuant to clause 2(k)(6) of House Rule XI, the Committee
shall subpoena all documents and communications from the
Department of Defense regarding the military service record of
Representative Cory Mills of Florida; all documents,
communications, and contracts from the Department of Defense,
Department of Justice, of Interior, of Homeland Security and
Department of State related to Representative Cory Mills of
Florida; and any business in which he or any relative has a
financial or controlling interest, including Pacem Defense,
Pacem Solutions International LLC, ALS LLC; and any documents
and communications from the Department of Justice, the U.S.
Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia, Ed Martin in
his personal capacity, and the White House regarding any
communications around the February 2025 domestic violence
incident in Washington, D.C., involving Representative Cory
Mills of Florida.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to be recognized
to explain the amendment.
Chairman Comer. Mr. Garcia amended the Mace motion.
Does any other Member seek recognition?
Mr. Garcia. I would like to just comment on the motion.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead.
Ms. Mace. And then if I can comment after.
Chairman Comer. I will recognize Garcia, then Mace. Go
ahead.
Mr. Garcia. I just want to just begin by saying, broadly
speaking, on the initial motion, Congresswoman Omar is a proud
Member of this body and an American and as American as any
Member of this body.
She is a public servant and a fighter for her constituents,
and she represents the American Dream. And I know I, and House
Democrats, are honored and proud to support her and to serve
with her.
Congresswoman Ilhan Omar has endured horrific attacks her
entire time in public office, and we admire her courage. My
motion requests documents on Cory Mills, a Republican from
Florida.
And I just want to note that this is not the best way of
handling these types of issues, and we are introducing this
only because this is being introduced on Representative Ilhan
Omar. And so, we are forced to make this motion and this
amendment to Representative Mace's, Nancy Mace's, motion.
So, with that, I conclude.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back.
Now, the Chair recognizes Ms. Mace to speak on the Garcia
amendment to her motion.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I support
Representative Garcia's amendment. And you beat me to it. I was
going to do this on the House Armed Services Committee, and I
am a little jealous that you beat me to it.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. It is the best sunshine.
And if there are individuals, I do not care about party. I do
not care about affiliation. This needs to be getting--we need
to get to the bottom of it and what is going on.
And, quite frankly, I do not think someone that allegedly
is doing arms deals should be sitting on the Foreign Affairs
Committee or the House Armed Services Committee. And if this is
what gets to the bottom of what is happening over there, then I
support it and I support the amendment, and let us do it.
Chairman Comer. Do you yield back? Do you yield to me?
Ms. Mace. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. So, I have had several Members request
information about trying to determine if Ms. Omar was involved
in any of the Somali fraud and this and that. The thing that I
have told people is the Ethics Committee is set up to do that.
That is what the Ethics Committee's sole purpose is, is to
investigate Members.
So, we have got a motion by Mr. Garcia to amend Ms. Mace's
motion. Both the amendment and the motion seek this Committee
to investigate sitting Members of Congress. That is not
something the Oversight Committee does, but, you know, we are a
democratic committee and I am not telling anybody in here how
to vote. You vote however you want.
But that is what the Ethics Committee's role is. That is
their jurisdiction. And I just wanted to state that. And,
again, look, I am for whatever. I am for transparency. You all
vote the way you want. This Committee is wired, you are going
to vote the way you want anyway.
I do not think the Ranking Member can tell his Members how
to vote, and I cannot tell my Members how to vote. I am just
telling you, that is what the Ethics Committee's sole purpose
in life is. So, I am just stating that.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.
Chairman Comer. Which one do we want----
Mr. Lynch.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Chairman, I believe you are correct in your
assessment that that is not something within our jurisdiction.
That would mean that that motion would be out of order, not
subject to a vote and let us do this anyway, even though it is
not within our jurisdiction.
That is a jurisdiction of another committee, and we
normally and regularly refer matters that are not within our
jurisdiction to other committees. And that is how that should
be handled, sir. That is my thought.
Chairman Comer. The previous Chairman of the--I am going to
respond to Mr. Lynch's inquiry. The previous Chairwoman of the
Committee, from New York--remind me--Maloney, she said the
Oversight Committee has jurisdiction over anything and
everything, and I kind of tend to believe that.
But now, the Ethics Committee has primary jurisdiction.
There is no question about that. Now, do we have secondary
jurisdiction? Possibly, probably, whatever. I am not----
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, under Rule X, we have the ability.
We have full oversight of the U.S. House of Representatives.
Chairman Comer. We can do pretty much what we want in this
Committee, but I just want to make it very clear so we do not
start going down this road or this Committee will just turn
into, you know, investigating other Members, whoever is in
control.
That is what the Ethics Committee is set up to do. And I am
not--look, Ms. Mace, you can file any motion you want.
Ms. Mace. If someone beat their wife and it was covered up,
you should find out. If someone married their brother to commit
immigration fraud, we should find out. That is what this
Committee can do.
Chairman Comer. I understand.
Mr. Garcia. Let us not defame Members of Congress. Mr.
Chairman, I just want to agree, first of all. I think Oversight
Democrats, we do not believe either of these motions should be
discussed. This is not the place to be going after Members in
this way. If there is a concern about a Member, it should be at
the Ethics Committee.
But if Members on the Majority are going to go after
Members in our caucus, we are going to do the same. And so, if
the Republican Majority wants to remove this amendment or vote
this amendment down completely, we would join you on that, but
what we are not going to do is allow the attack on one of our
Members.
Chairman Comer. And I am not defending or opposing. I am
just saying that is what that Committee is supposed to do.
The Chair recognizes----
Ms. Mace. This is what we do up here. We just protect each
other, protect our own, and nobody ever gets held accountable
for anything up here. This whole thing is BS.
Mr. Lynch. It goes to the Ethics Committee and they will
handle it.
Ms. Mace. Which then it dies in a black hole.
Chairman Comer. We are going to vote on this. Everybody is
going to vote on this. We are going to vote on this because
there has been a motion and an amendment. We are going to vote
on the amendment and the motion. I am just saying that is what
the Ethics Committee is supposed to do.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Perry.
Mr. Perry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
There are few times that myself and Mr. Lynch agree on
things. I think he would admit that as I have. But on this
occasion, I feel he is correct.
And while this Committee may have the jurisdiction to do
all manner of things, I think this is a dangerous precedent to
set. The Ethics Committee is set up specifically for this task.
And I empathize with Representative Mace that it seems like
there is no accountability over and over again. And maybe in
the case of Representative Omar and Representative Mills, I
might even feel that way. But we have a process here for a
reason, and the Ethics Committee is set up the way it is for a
reason so that there is equal representation in a place that is
hyper partisan over the smallest of things.
And so that there is a due process where American citizens,
individuals in this body and serving Members are treated
fairly. That is why we have that committee. And if we are going
to run Members through a partisan committee, which all the
other ones are set up to be so, I think that that is going to
be something that we might enjoy the outcome of at the moment,
but will not enjoy the outcome at some future time when we are
in the Minority.
And so, on this occasion, I agree with Mr. Lynch. And I
would encourage the Chair to render this motion out of order.
And with my remaining time, I would cede some time to Mr.
Lynch.
Mr. Lynch. I thank the gentleman. And he is correct, we do
not agree that often, but I respect the gentleman.
The other piece is this, is that anyone in the public can
make an allegation of any Member here for any reason, political
or personal or otherwise.
And if we are going to debate allegations from the public
against Members on this Committee, then you are just exposed to
whatever anyone throws at you. And all you got to do is spend
about one minute on social media and think about the cruelty
and falsity that can be tossed against any Member.
And then, what the gentlelady is saying is that we want to
debate the merits and the veracity of those allegations against
us here in an open committee rather than having it go to the
Ethics Committee, who will be able to vet those allegations,
and then if they are meaningful, bring something before the
entire body.
But we open every Member now and in the future to terrible
exposure to your reputation if you are going to handle every
single allegation here in open public, regardless of how
credible that allegation against a Member might be. I just
think it is bad for the institution and there is another
process that has worked in the past.
Thank you. I yield back to the gentleman.
Mr. Perry. And I yield, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Who has got the floor, Mr. Perry?
Mr. Perry. I yield.
Chairman Comer. And would you yield to me for a minute?
Mr. Perry. If you want to engage in a colloquy, absolutely.
Chairman Comer. I do not disagree with what Ms. Mace is
trying to do. I do not disagree with what Mr. Garcia is trying
to do. And I do not know--I have no idea what the Ethics
Committee is doing on either of these. But I think it is
disappointing that Ms. Omar was not here for the Minnesota
Somalia hearing. I mean, that is something I think she should
have attended. And I think Mills should, you know, answer
questions on the House Floor.
I think they both--there are a lot of questions the
American people have for both of them. So, I am just saying
that is what the Ethics Committee is for.
Mr. Frost. Mr. Chair, did you just refer to it as a Somalia
hearing?
Chairman Comer. Hold on. It was a hearing on Minnesota,
fraud in the welfare system.
Ms. Mace. Somalians committed billions dollars of fraud. It
was a Somali hearing.
Chairman Comer. There was Somali fraud. There was Somalia
fraud. There were lots of Somalia fraud allegations today.
Mr. Perry. Mr. Chairman, if we can continue our colloquy,
you are the Chairman of the Committee and you can make a
ruling. Now, we might disagree with the ruling of the Chair,
but I would tell you it is my position and my recommendation,
humbly and respectfully, to the Chair that the Chair should
render this motion invalid.
And if we want to challenge the ruling of the Chair, then
we can do that and have a vote on that. But I think this is of
substance enough and import enough that we treat it with the
gravity that Mr. Lynch and others have suggested, not only in
this circumstance, feeling the same way you do and in total
honesty, quite honestly, the same way that Representative Mace
does about whether this has been adjudicated appropriately or
timely or what have you.
The point is, is this the place, is this the process, to do
those things? And I would agree with my colleagues on either
side of the aisle that this is not the place to do what is
being implied here in this motion. And with that----
Chairman Comer. And to answer your question on the ruling
of the Chair, you can ask the question. That was what Mr. Lynch
started with. We can vote on whatever we want. In consulting
with the parliamentarian, we can vote for this. We can do this.
I am just saying that that is what the Ethics Committee is for.
Mr. Perry. I understand.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Garcia, then----
Mr. Garcia. I think we may have--I understand--first, I
want to also, I am associating myself with the comments that
were just made, and particularly with Representative Lynch.
I think, again, this is not the appropriate place for this,
and we have filed a substitute motion because of the main
motion that was filed.
What I would like to do at this time is I am going to
withdraw my motion, and instead, do a motion to table the Mace
motion. And if that motion does not pass successfully, then I
will bring my substitute motion on Representative Mills back to
the floor.
But now we have an opportunity with this additional
amendment, I am withdrawing the Mills amendment, and my new
motion amendment is to table the initial Mace motion.
I hope everyone votes yes on that. I think that solves the
issues that a majority of us are trying to solve, and we can
move on to the next item. So, that is the new motion.
Chairman Comer. So, Mr. Garcia made a motion to table. That
is not debatable.
Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I do have a question.
Chairman Comer. It is not debatable. I am sorry. But state
your request. You are a good Member, Mr. Palmer.
Mr. Palmer. I just have a question and----
Chairman Comer. Do it quick because it is not debatable,
but anyway, go ahead.
Mr. Palmer. It is not about the motion to table. It is
about under the Ethics Committee, if they find evidence against
a Member, they can make recommendations for censure, for
removal.
If we were to conduct something like that here, what power
does this Committee have? Is it the same power as the Ethics
Committee? I really--I agree with Mr. Perry and Mr. Lynch that
this might be a bridge too far. And if we are going to do this,
then we need to know what the consequences are going forward
for any other Member who might, including a Member of this
Committee, who might have issues raised.
How far does this go other than just, you know, a public
trial?
I yield back.
Chairman Comer. All right. So, all those in favor of the
motion to table signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it and the motion to table is agreed to.
Is there any other business which needs to come before the
Committee? The Chair recognizes Mr. Higgins and then we will
recognize Ms. Pressley.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Chairman, I had sought recognition.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead. You are recognized.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Chairman, I had endeavored to remain
silent, but I am compelled to clarify for the citizenry
watching and remind my colleagues.
Let me just ask you, Mr. Chairman, you are Chairman of the
Oversight Committee. Does this Committee enjoy and do you
possess the power to subpoena?
Chairman Comer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you very much. Does that authority to
subpoena require a vote by this entire Committee or debate
regarding votes for a subpoena of material or----
Chairman Comer. No.
Mr. Higgins [continuing]. People?
Chairman Comer. No.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you. So we are a serious investigative
committee body, and yet, we are presenting to the American
people the concept that this is our subpoena procedure, that a
Member has to present a motion and there has to be a vote and
absurd debate back and forth, that this is the means by which
we determine whether or not a subpoena is issued in the
Oversight Committee?
I think it is insulting to the seriousness of the work that
we do and that the staff of this Committee performs every day.
Every day.
And seeking a subpoena, might I add, let me just put this
out there, it is a furtherance of compulsion. Listen to your
Uncle Clay, America. You do not just normally start out with a
subpoena introduced as a vote by a Member on a guy. This poor
guy, Seth Harp, I do not know who he is. I had to Google him.
We have not reached out to him and asked him to come before
this Committee and he said no. That is normally the first step.
You call and email. You have an official communication from the
Committee reaching out to an American citizen, say, we would
like to talk to you. As part of our legislative purpose, we are
conducting investigative work. You are included. Will you come
talk to us? Then if they say no, you take the next step, which
is usually a more strongly worded letter. And then you get to
the point where you can rightfully use your subpoena authority
in a judicious and conservative manner.
And yet, because of the behavior of this Committee in
recent months, it has been presented to the American people via
C-SPAN that the way we pursue a subpoena in this Committee is
by the introduction of a motion for a vote to subpoena
something or someone. That is not the way it is done.
Mr. Chairman, I am voting no on all of this, because I
object to this process that is false and not reflective of the
serious investigative work that the Oversight Committee
performs day in and day out.
And I yield to the Chairman.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. Thank you, Clay, very well said.
Very well said.
The Chair recognizes Ms. Pressley.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My motion to subpoena is pretty straightforward. It is
timely and also germane. It is the only subpoena that is
relevant to today's hearing.
Earlier today, a woman was shot multiple times and killed
by immigration enforcement agents in Minnesota while we were
holding a hearing on the state. And while there are claims that
ICE did nothing wrong, the officials in Minnesota say
otherwise. And since this Committee is responsible for
oversight of Federal law enforcement, we must investigate.
This subpoena will help us get to the truth, and it should
have bipartisan support and I urge my colleagues to vote yes.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back.
Any other Member seek recognition on the Pressley motion?
Mr. Garcia. Yes.
Chairman Comer. Who said--do we have anybody on our side?
Okay, Mr. Ranking Member. And then I will go to----
Mr. Garcia. I will actually--I just want to add that I
obviously support the Pressley motion. I think it is relevant
to today's conversation, so I want to thank her for the motion.
I want to yield the rest of my time to Congressman
Krishnamoorthi, please.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. I just wanted to give a little context
to Ms. Pressley's excellent motion for those who have not had a
chance to see this video.
This video from Minnesota is deeply, deeply disturbing. It
shows a Federal immigration enforcement operation on a
residential street in south Minneapolis where families live.
Agents move in on a civilian vehicle. Weapons are drawn. The
car is boxed in. Shots are fired. A woman is struck and dies.
And if you look at the video, you can see that the officer
actually shoots the woman point-blank in front of the
windshield.
The footage does not show an unavoidable imminent threat or
that lethal force was the only option. From what can be seen,
the woman was trying to drive away. That raises serious
questions about judgment and deescalation.
A woman is dead. Her family now carries a permanent loss.
This should never have happened. When Federal agents use deadly
force, the burden of justification is extraordinarily high,
regardless of the mission.
Oversight requires sworn testimony. Secretary of Homeland
Security, Kristi Noem, must appear before this Committee. I
will press to subpoena Secretary Noem and force a vote again
and again until she explains on the record why a woman is dead
following a Federal operation captured on video in a
residential neighborhood.
If Secretary Noem has nothing to hide, she should have
nothing to fear from testifying before this Committee. I hope
she will come before this Committee voluntarily. This Committee
must do its duty. Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Yield back. Any other Member seek
recognition?
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Gosar, and then I
will get to Clay.
Mr. Gosar. Yes. You know, I think the air of what the
gentleman is talking about is good, but I think it has to be
across the board. And what I mean by that is that there were
instigating factors by the mayor that antagonized the
situation.
And anybody that--if it was found that there is innocence
here, then we should presume everybody is innocent until proven
guilty, that they also are on the line, that if they
combatively took on the police or the--not the police, but the
folks from immigration--they should be charged as well. So, I
think it should be open all the way across the board so that it
is equal and adjudicated.
Chairman Comer. Do you yield to Mr. Higgins? Would you
yield to Mr. Higgins?
Mr. Gosar. Yes.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you. I thank my colleague.
Mr. Chairman, the split-second decisions that an officer
has to make on the street and--everything is on the line,
literally.
And whereas I fully support a thorough investigation of
this officer-involved shooting and every officer-involved
shooting, I ask my colleagues to back up from this request, and
I am going to oppose this motion but, actually, I think it
should be withdrawn, because I ask that my colleagues look at
this motion within the context of what you are actually asking
for.
You are asking for a slice of evidence void of the full
spectrum of the required investigation. This is the sort of
thing that we should absolutely, as a Republic well-rooted in
criminal justice procedure over the course of 250 years of
learning and growing and developing as a Nation regarding the
protection of the innocent, which is every American accused of
a crime until proven guilty.
And the process for investigation should be thorough and
slow and calm. And here we are again. We are leaning toward
``show me the video.''
Ms. Ansari. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Pressley. Would the gentleman yield for a question?
Mr. Higgins. And I will close by saying--I am going to
yield my time back to Mr. Gosar, but I will close with the time
that has been yielded to me by saying, maybe I am the only guy
in here that has brought----
Ms. Ansari. Would you yield for a question, Mr. Higgins?
Mr. Higgins. No, madam. The time was yielded to me. You can
be recognized. When you are recognized, you can ask me the
question. I am happy to answer.
Ms. Ansari. Okay.
Mr. Higgins. Maybe I am the only guy in here that has
brought many people in the back of my squad car to jail to be
booked for the initial arrest. It was not uncommon,--hear me,
my colleagues. It was not uncommon from the back seat of my
unit, they would say, show me the video, man. Show me the
proof, man. And I would say, sir, this is the arrest part.
Later comes the trial part, and you will have a shot to look at
all the evidence that the prosecution has.
So, we are falling into that category of being too quick
and cute for our own good here. We should allow the
investigative authority under thorough and complete and
vigorous oversight by Congress, yes, but not to the extent that
we are interfering with the investigative authority by voting
and mandating that evidence of an investigation, a small slice
of it be presented for public review. We should be calm and
judicious.
And I yield the time that was kindly yielded to me back to
Mr. Gosar.
Mr. Gosar. I thank the gentleman. And I move to table the
motion.
Ms. Ansari. Mr. Chairman, can I speak on the motion?
Chairman Comer. Not debatable. Motion has been made by Mr.
Gosar of tabling the Pressley motion.
All those in favor of tabling, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. All those opposed, no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman Comer. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have
it and the motion to table is agreed to.
Mr. Garcia. Can we get a recorded vote on this?
Chairman Comer. A recorded vote has been ordered. The clerk
will call the role.
The Clerk. Mr. Jordan?
Mr. Jordan. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Jordan votes yes.
Mr. Turner?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Gosar?
Mr. Gosar. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Gosar votes yes.
Ms. Foxx?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Grothman?
Mr. Grothman. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Grothman votes yes.
Mr. Cloud?
Mr. Cloud. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Cloud votes yes.
Mr. Palmer?
Mr. Palmer. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Palmer votes yes.
Mr. Higgins?
Mr. Higgins. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Higgins votes yes.
Mr. Sessions?
Mr. Sessions. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Sessions votes yes.
Mr. Biggs?
Mr. Biggs. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs votes aye.
Ms. Mace?
Ms. Mace. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Mace votes no.
Mr. Fallon?
Mr. Fallon. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Fallon votes aye.
Mr. Donalds?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Perry?
Mr. Perry. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Perry votes aye.
Mr. Timmons?
Mr. Timmons. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Timmons votes aye.
Mr. Burchett?
Mr. Burchett. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Burchett votes aye.
Ms. Boebert?
Ms. Boebert. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Boebert votes aye.
Mrs. Luna?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Langworthy?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Burlison?
Mr. Burlison. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Burlison votes aye.
Mr. Crane?
Mr. Crane. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Crane votes aye.
Mr. Jack?
Mr. Jack. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Jack votes aye.
Mr. McGuire?
Mr. McGuire. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. McGuire votes aye.
Mr. Gill?
Mr. Gill. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Gill votes aye.
Mr. Garcia?
Mr. Garcia. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Garcia votes no.
Ms. Norton?
Ms. Norton. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Norton votes no.
Mr. Lynch?
Mr. Lynch. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Lynch votes no.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi?
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Krishnamoorthi votes no.
Mr. Khanna?
Mr. Khanna. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Khanna votes no.
Mr. Mfume?
Mr. Mfume. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Mfume votes no.
Ms. Brown?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ms. Stansbury?
Ms. Stansbury. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Stansbury votes no.
Mr. Frost?
Mr. Frost. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Frost votes no.
Ms. Lee?
Ms. Lee. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Lee votes no.
Mr. Casar?
Mr. Casar. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Casar votes no.
Ms. Crockett?
Ms. Crockett. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Crockett votes no.
Ms. Randall?
Ms. Randall. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Randall votes no.
Mr. Subramanyam?
Mr. Subramanyam. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Subramanyam votes no.
Ms. Ansari?
Ms. Ansari. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Ansari votes no.
Mr. Bell?
Mr. Bell. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Bell votes no.
Ms. Simon?
Ms. Simon. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Simon votes no.
Mr. Min?
Mr. Min. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Min votes no.
Mr. Walkinshaw?
Mr. Walkinshaw. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Walkinshaw votes no.
Ms. Pressley?
Ms. Pressley. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Pressley votes no.
Ms. Tlaib?
Ms. Tlaib. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Tlaib votes no.
Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman votes yes.
Chairman Comer. Has any Member not voted or any Member wish
to change your vote?
Seeing none, will the clerk tally the votes?
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 19, the
nays are 21.
Chairman Comer. The motion to table fails. And we will
proceed to, I assume, vote, unless people want to debate this
more.
Mr. Fallon. Mr. Chair?
Chairman Comer. Any other Member seek recognition?
Ms. Pressley. Mr. Chair?
Chairman Comer. Mr. Fallon, go ahead.
Mr. Fallon. Chairman, I will be very brief because it has
been a long day for all of us. Listen, I am all for
transparency. This incident, as the Member from Massachusetts
said, this incident just happened today. I would like to give
DHS a chance to release anything related to this. This is a
very serious matter. I have only seen one video myself. I have
heard that there are other angles. So, I would like to see the
process play out.
And this is--I think this is out of order and it is not our
role. So, I agree, yes, that we need to learn the truth and see
all the evidence, but I am going to trust the process.
And I yield back.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Do you yield to Ms. Mace?
Mr. Fallon. Yes, I yield to Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. And I will be fairly quick. I support the
subpoena. After the first two videos went viral, there is a
third video that appeared to show the ICE agent being struck by
the vehicle. My understanding, he is in the hospital now. And
so, I think getting it out there on what happened--again,
sunlight is the best disinfectant.
But I also want to recognize, as I am supporting this
subpoena, why this happened. Why we are here today is because,
for years now, ICE agents, police officers, conservatives,
Republicans, have been dehumanized. ICE agents have been called
Nazis, fascists. Today, we heard the Governor of Minnesota, Tim
Walz, literally try to incite violence and a riot and war
against the Federal Government today. You heard the Mayor of
Minneapolis drop the ``F'' bomb.
And so, when I hear my colleagues across the other side of
the aisle talk about judgment and deescalation, we are the ones
that have been judged. ICE officers have been judged. The
deescalation is not happening. This violent rhetoric is causing
violence, and people feel emboldened to be violent.
The other thing I want to mention is that today Kristi
Noem--bring her to the Committee. I support that. She did
address this today, what happened in public. It was one of the
first things she talked about this afternoon, right after it
happened, I believe within an hour or two. She very publicly
provided an answer that was very clear and detailed on what
happened and why.
But I would encourage everyone to think about why we are
here today. I mean, and this kind of rhetoric has just got to
stop. But release it all. Release all the camera footage, body
cam. I am all for it, and I will be voting for it.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back.
The Chair recog----
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Okay. We will recognize Ranking Member,
then we will go to Burchett.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you.
No, I was just going to say that obviously the motion to
table did not go through, and Oversight Democrats are ready to
vote on the motion.
Chairman Comer. Burchett.
Mr. Burchett. Point of clarification. What exactly are we
voting on?
Chairman Comer. We are voting on a motion to subpoena--a
Pressley motion to subpoena the Department of Homeland Security
for all documents and footage related to the murder of a woman
by ICE in Minneapolis, Minnesota, today.
Mr. Timmons. Mr. Chairman, I want to clarify that word.
Chairman Comer. Go ahead.
Mr. Timmons. The ``death'' of a woman.
Chairman Comer. Well, it says ``murder'' on the motion.
Mr. Timmons. Okay. Well.
Ms. Crockett. And, Mr. Chair? Mr. Chair?
Chairman Comer. Question.
Ms. Crockett. Mr. Chair, I just want to be clear, because I
am not sure if it is stated in the motion and you failed to
read it, but I would like the record to reflect that the woman
who was killed, her name is Renee Nicole Good, so that
hopefully we will not have any confusion about----
Chairman Comer. It is not in the motion. But question has
been called for. We are going to vote on this.
The clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Jordan?
Mr. Jordan. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Jordan votes no.
Mr. Turner?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Gosar?
Mr. Gosar. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Gosar votes no.
Ms. Foxx?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Grothman?
Mr. Grothman. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Grothman votes no.
Mr. Cloud?
Mr. Cloud. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Cloud votes no.
Mr. Palmer?
Mr. Palmer. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Palmer votes no.
Mr. Higgins? Mr. Higgins?
Mr. Higgins. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Higgins votes no.
Mr. Sessions?
Mr. Sessions. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Sessions votes no.
Mr. Biggs?
Mr. Biggs. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs votes no.
Ms. Mace?
Ms. Mace. I did not realize it said ``murder.'' I am a no.
This was not murder.
The Clerk. Ms. Mace votes no.
Mr. Fallon?
Mr. Fallon. Nay.
The Clerk. Mr. Fallon votes nay.
Mr. Donalds?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Perry?
Mr. Perry. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Perry votes no.
Mr. Timmons?
Mr. Timmons. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Timmons votes no.
Mr. Burchett?
Mr. Burchett. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Burchett votes no.
Ms. Boebert?
Ms. Boebert. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Boebert votes no.
Mrs. Luna?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Langworthy?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Burlison?
Mr. Burlison. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Burlison votes no.
Mr. Crane?
Mr. Crane. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Crane votes no.
Mr. Jack?
Mr. Jack. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Jack votes no.
Mr. McGuire?
Mr. McGuire. No.
The Clerk. Mr. McGuire votes no.
Mr. Gill?
Mr. Gill. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Gill votes no.
Mr. Garcia?
Mr. Garcia. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Garcia votes yes.
Ms. Norton?
Ms. Norton. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Norton votes yes.
Mr. Lynch?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Lynch votes yes.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi?
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Krishnamoorthi votes yes.
Mr. Khanna?
Mr. Khanna. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Khanna votes yes.
Mr. Mfume?
Mr. Mfume. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Mfume votes yes.
Ms. Brown?
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ms. Stansbury?
Ms. Stansbury. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Stansbury votes yes.
Mr. Frost?
Mr. Frost. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Frost votes yes.
Ms. Lee?
Ms. Lee. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Lee votes yes.
Mr. Casar?
Mr. Casar. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Casar votes yes.
Ms. Crockett?
Ms. Crockett. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Crockett votes yes.
Ms. Randall?
Ms. Randall. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Randall votes yes.
Mr. Subramanyam?
Mr. Subramanyam. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Subramanyam votes yes.
Ms. Ansari?
Ms. Ansari. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Ansari votes yes.
Mr. Bell?
Mr. Bell. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Bell votes yes.
Ms. Simon?
Ms. Simon. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Simon votes yes.
Mr. Min?
Mr. Min. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Min votes yes.
Mr. Walkinshaw?
Mr. Walkinshaw. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Walkinshaw votes yes.
Ms. Pressley?
Ms. Pressley. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Pressley votes yes.
Ms. Tlaib?
Ms. Tlaib. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Tlaib votes yes.
Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman votes no.
Chairman Comer. Has any other Member--does any other Member
wish to vote? If not, any Member wish to change your vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will tally the vote.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 20, the
nays are 20.
Chairman Comer. It is a tie, so the motion fails.
Does any other Member have any business before the
Committee?
Seeing none, with that and without objection, all Members
have five legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for the witnesses which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, the
Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 6:39 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
[all]