[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                  PROTECTING CONSUMERS AND BUSINESSES:
                   CONFRONTING ORGANIZED RETAIL CRIME

=======================================================================





                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL  
                         GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE 

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                      WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2025
                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-46
                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary




               [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 




               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov 
                                ______
                                
                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

62-401                    WASHINGTON : 2026                
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               





               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking 
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                    Member
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York
THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin            Georgia
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California
JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia
LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina
WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York
ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
BRANDON GILL, Texas
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington

                                 ------                                

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
                        GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                       ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Chair

TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               LUCY McBATH, Georgia, Ranking 
TROY NEHLS, Texas                      Member
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
KEVIN KILEY, California              DAN GOLDMAN, New York
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           ERIC SWALWELL, California

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
                ARTHUR EWENCZYK, Minority Staff Director 
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                      Wednesday, December 17, 2025

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
The Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and 
  Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona......     1
The Honorable Steve Cohen, a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime 
  and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Tennessee     3
The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     4

                               WITNESSES

Shane Bennett, Principal of Cyber Defense--Theft, Fraud & Abuse, 
  Target
  Oral Testimony.................................................     8
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    10
The Hon. Summer Stephan, District Attorney, San Diego County, 
  California
  Oral Testimony.................................................    16
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    18
Chris Spear, President and Chief Executive Officer, American 
  Trucking Association
  Oral Testimony.................................................    26
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    28
Scott McBride, Chief Global Asset Protection Officer & CSO, 
  American Eagle Outfitters Inc.
  Oral Testimony.................................................    42
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    44

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted by the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal 
  Government Surveillance, for the record........................    49

A statement from the International Council of Shopping Centers 
  (ICSC), Dec. 17, 2025, submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin, 
  Ranking Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State 
  of Maryland, for the record
A letter to the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee 
  on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of 
  Arizona, and the Honorable Lucy McBath, Ranking Member of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Georgia, from the National Association of 
  Convenience Stores (NACS), Dec. 17, 2025, submitted by the 
  Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and 
  Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona, for 
  the record

                                APPENDIX

Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Arizona, for the record
    A statement from the Intermodal Association of North America 
        (IANA), Dec. 17, 2025
    A statement from The Home Depot, Dec. 17, 2025
    An article entitled, ``Walmart store closings 2024: See the 
        full list of all the stores that closed this year,'' Jan. 
        21, 2025, NJ.com
A statement from the National Retail Federation, Dec. 17, 2025, 
  submitted by the Honorable Troy Nehls, a Member of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Texas, for the record

 
                  PROTECTING CONSUMERS AND BUSINESSES:  
                   CONFRONTING ORGANIZED RETAIL CRIME 

                              ----------                              

                      Wednesday, December 17, 2025

                        House of Representatives

              Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government  
                              Surveillance 

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:05 a.m., in 
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Andy Biggs 
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Biggs, Tiffany, Nehls, 
Moore, Kiley, Lee, Knott, Issa, Cohen, and Raskin.
    Mr. Biggs. The Committee, Subcommittee on Crime and 
Government Surveillance, is called to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess at any time. Without objection, Mr. Correa will be 
permitted to participate in today's hearing for the purpose of 
questioning witnesses. He will receive five minutes for that 
purpose.
    I thank our Democratic colleagues for working with us to 
get started at 9:00 this morning.
    I now recognize the gentlewoman from Florida to lead us in 
the Pledge of Allegiance. Ms. Lee.
    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States 
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one 
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for 
all.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I now recognize myself for an opening 
statement.
    I am pleased to be here at the Subcommittee hearing this 
morning. The business before us today is the hearing entitled 
``Protecting Consumers and Businesses Confronting Organized 
Retail Crime.''
    Organized retail crime is a growing threat to our retailers 
and their employers, our law enforcement, and our communities. 
The crisis is not going away; in fact, it is on the rise. In 
fact, we held a hearing on this very topic a little more than 
two years ago. Today we will have the opportunity to see how 
the crisis has evolved.
    The rise in organized retail crime and cargo theft is 
causing businesses to close and is endangering the public, 
where it goes beyond simple shoplifting. Organized theft groups 
strategically steal with the specific intent to resell for 
profit.
    Let's look at a recent example that occurred just a few 
miles from where we sat today.
    In March 2025, authorities in Virginia and Maryland 
arrested two adults and a teenager responsible for allegedly 
stealing over $190,000 in a series of organized retail 
robberies, including $50,000 taken in Fairfax County.
    The suspects first stole perfume. When Ultra secured it 
behind glass, they allegedly began smashing the cases with a 
hammer to access the products.
    For larger OTG, ORC is another business in a portfolio that 
may also include narcotics distribution, human trafficking, and 
other illicit activities. In the United States in 2023, Walmart 
lost $6.5 billion in revenue due to theft and was forced to 
close 11 stores in 2024 due to the severity of theft across the 
country.
    Victims are not only big box stores. Eight in ten retailers 
have said the violence and aggression associated with ORC 
incidents increased in the past year. Additionally, ORC groups 
have increasingly engaged in cargo theft, targeting the 
trucking and railroad industries as lucrative new sources of 
stolen goods.
    According to the American Trucking Associations, that is 
ATA, cargo theft has cost the U.S. trucking industry 
approximately $7 billion per year.
    Rogue prosecutors and soft-on-crime policies in some 
jurisdictions are fueling a rise in ORC. Criminals emboldened 
by soft-on-crime prosecutions and progressive bail reform laws 
know that they can avoid prosecution and incarceration if they 
stay below the felony threshold. Thus, criminals intentionally 
steal products valued just below the dollar amount required for 
the crime to become a felony, knowing that those crimes are not 
prosecuted.
    Furthermore, with some states passing irresponsible 
progressive bail reform laws, these criminals know that they 
will be immediately released. Once they are released, they go 
on to commit similar or more serious crimes without facing any 
consequences.
    It is time we fight back. Organized retail crime must be 
stopped, criminals must be penalized, and shoppers and retail 
employees must not live in fear. I want to give some key 
statistics and impacts.
    Cargo theft costs the trucking industry $18 million per 
day. That is about $7 billion annually.
    Retail theft is estimated at $45 billion in 2024, and is 
projected to exceed $53 billion by 2027. nationwide job losses 
are attributed to ORC, more than $650,000.
    Merchandise thefts, shoplifting, are up 19 percent in the 
past year, on top of a 24 percent increase in 2022 and 2023.
    External shoplifting incidents are up 18 percent; overall 
merchandise theft up 12 percent.
    Fifty-one percent of retailers report thieves are more 
aggressive in that past year, after a 73 reported increase in 
the prior year.
    Seventy percent of retailers saw increases in phone scams; 
55 percent in digital e-commerce fraud.
    Fifty percent of cargo supply chain theft tied to ORC.
    Sixty-six percent of retailers report transnational ORC 
involvement since 2024.
    As someone who lives in Arizona, I can tell you 
transnational theft is a big issue.
    I look forward to hearing from our top-flight list of 
witnesses today, our panel of witnesses today. I am grateful 
for you being here. Grateful to you and the audience who are 
here, and grateful to each Member of the Committee who is here, 
and our staff as well.
    With that, I yield back on my opening statement. Now, I 
recognize my friend from Tennessee, Mr. Cohen, for his opening 
statement.
    Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am sitting in for Ms. 
Lucy McBath who is a good friend and an outstanding Member from 
Atlanta, Georgia. She is, unfortunately, or fortunately she is 
there to help her husband through surgery, and she asked me to 
come in. I am not necessarily known for great activity at 9:00 
in the morning, but Ms. McBath is not here.
    Thank you. I am honored to be here with Mr. Nehls, a hawk 
on law enforcement against retail crime. Thank you.
    Organized retail crime is a very real problem and occurs in 
every corner of our country. When I was young--and I don't 
think it necessarily has anything to do with religion--but my 
grandmother told me to buy wholesale. We are concerned about 
wholesale crime, too. It is out there.
    I discussed our situation with Steve Mulroy, who is our 
Shelby County District Attorney. I hope he has met you, 
Stephan. He is District Attorney of Shelby County.
    We shared examples of recent cases and how State lines 
affect law enforcement. Arkansas, we are cornered, Southwest 
corner of Tennessee. To the West is Arkansas, and to the South 
is Mississippi. The other two corners or our city or county 
touch Tennessee.
    We are a major transportation and logistics stop, and we 
have related cargo and freight theft. One of our Senators, 
Marsha Blackburn, is introducing a bill with Senator Amy 
Klobuchar called the Cargo Security Innovation Act. I intend to 
support that with her, because that will be a way to go after 
the theft that we have had on the railroads, which is a serious 
problem when they take cargo, threaten the trains, and take the 
cargo out.
    They also hit trucks. That is important. This all threatens 
the safety of the public, employees of the myriad companies 
that are targeted, and drives up costs for consumers. At a time 
when everyone is feeling the affordability crunch, for many the 
American dream is getting pushed further away; it is being 
stolen from them.
    We don't need to talk about hoaxes or anecdotes, as I am 
sure you, all of us here, have believable stories to share. We 
need to talk about solutions, which we will do today.
    It is always best to start with data. That is how we ensure 
to identify and attack our problems with a solution that works. 
This is one of the difficult parts of the conversation in that 
it is incomplete and bogged down by different definitions and 
ways of accounting.
    We know we have a problem, but its extent and implications 
are somewhat unclear. It touches on a fundamental principle of 
American Government: Federalism. I imagine District Attorney 
Stephan will discuss that.
    We feel this acutely in Memphis because of our location.
    The President created the Crime in Memphis Task Force 
designed to surge Federal law enforcement resources in Memphis 
and improve coordination across agencies. I support the 
additional FBI, DEA, and AFT agents that come into Memphis. We 
already had them in Memphis. They are finding guns, illegal 
guns, and they are finding drugs and finding other crimes that 
are against Federal law.
    He also put the National Guard in. He put a lot of ICE 
agents in. Memphis is not an immigration center of crimes. Most 
of the people that are there that are immigrants, even if they 
did come into the country illegally, most of them are working 
legally doing a lot of important work in Memphis: Construction 
industry and the tourism industry. They are necessary and 
needed.
    If we build that 990-person ballroom, we need waiters. 
Thinking they will all be Salvadoran. We need to be concerned 
about that.
    The National Guard faces this. They are present, and patrol 
is important in law enforcement. They are not doing much in the 
way of crime fighting. That is, of course, intended, I think.
    It somewhat changed the relation between Federal, State, 
and local law enforcement. The order is focused on street and 
violent crime. Memphis hasn't had too much, and it has gone 
down. It went down before the Federal Task Force came in, but 
it has gone down a little bit more.
    We don't know exactly what street crime is, but we know 
when we say we are going to go in with ICE and take out the 
people that committed the most serious offenses, the worst of 
the worst, mention crime, homicide, we mention rape, and we 
mention pedophiles. We know who those people are.
    They are arresting people simply for the offense of being 
in the country illegally. It is not right. It not necessarily 
something which should cause deportation when they are not 
committing crimes and they are contributing to the economy. 
That is a concern we have.
    The U.S. Marshals are in charge of the situation in 
Memphis. We understand that, and they are doing a good job.
    All of this is to say we are developing policies to address 
organized retail crime. It must be well-designed with thoughts 
of resources, allocation, roles, and responsibilities. Federal 
assistance is good, but especially an interstate problem. 
Local, strictly local problems we need to be concerned about 
the separation of powers.
    That is a question I hope we will get into and understand 
there is a place for Federal law enforcement, and a place for 
the State and the local law enforcement.
    With that, I yield back my time.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize the 
Ranking Member of the Full Committee, Mr. Raskin, for his 
opening statement.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks to all 
the witnesses for coming to be with us today.
    In recent years, retailers have emphasized that organized 
retail crime has become a significant threat, both to public 
safety and the retail economy, threatening the viability of 
businesses like cargo brokers, shippers, big box stores, online 
marketplaces, as well as the physical safety of people who work 
at these different businesses.
    Although we lack one clear definition of organized retail 
crime, we know that the essential problem is now continuing 
criminal enterprises that operate in a coordinated way to 
commit large-scale theft of merchandise for resale, or to 
defraud retailers and convert the proceeds into cash or crypto 
currency.
    This is not petty shoplifting by middle school students. It 
is a multibillion-dollar industry that evolves and adapts 
almost daily to the latest technological trends, security 
improvements, and modified business operations. Social media 
and local news reports are filled with videos of smash-and-
grabs and mobs raiding cargo containers. These accounts are 
shocking but they are the tip of the iceberg.
    Criminal networks recruit people to steal or boost 
specified merchandise from retailers, sometimes paying the 
boosters' travel expenses, then fence these stolen goods 
online, shipping them across State and sometimes national 
borders, and arranging for resale of the merchandise to other 
stores, or even returning them to the retailer that they had 
stolen from in the first place.
    Others steal hundreds of gift cards from retailers. They 
then peel off the label to obtain the unique code on each card 
before doctoring them up to look new, returning them back to 
the store shelves, and using customized software to track the 
card numbers online. When unsuspecting customers eventually 
purchase the cards and load them with value, $50 or $100, for a 
nephew's holiday gift or $500 for a wedding present, the 
thieves can drain all the money off the cards for themselves 
remotely in this diabolically clever scam.
    The customer only finds out what happened if their 
disappointed nephew or the newlyweds complain about getting a 
gift card that has no value on it.
    It is increasingly clear that these kinds of operations at 
this scale are coordinated and enabled by the most up-to-date 
technology and communication tools; very hard to stop.
    The State and local law enforcement are our first line of 
defense against organized retail crime, but State and local 
officials have limited resources and authorities to investigate 
and prosecute crimes across State lines and even international 
borders.
    In recent years, Federal agencies have taken some interest 
in confronting this problem. The Federal prosecutors tend to 
focus their own limited resources on the largest and most 
brazen schemes, especially those involving theft of large 
amounts of cargo or thefts involving losses in tens of 
thousands of dollars.
    Many organized retail theft schemes are too complex for 
State prosecutors and too modest for Federal prosecutors, 
creating a growing enforcement gap.
    As this Committee grapples with the problem I see two basic 
challenges: First, we need better data. Because retailers, 
retail organizations, and law enforcement all track organized 
retail crime using different definitions and different methods, 
we have got a hard time canvassing the real scope and 
dimensions of the problem or formulating an effective targeted 
response.
    In some cases, retailers are targeted by the gangs for 
weeks or even months before it becomes clear that the crime is 
even taking place. If we are going to tackle this problem we 
need standardized national data, utilizing a consistent, and 
widely accepted definition of organized retail crime. We cannot 
dismantle these criminal networks until we have a real 
understanding of how they operate and how much damage they are 
causing.
    Second, we need to see better coordination between Federal 
law enforcement agencies and their State and local 
counterparts. A national task force could be very useful in 
finding the broader patterns in local incidents and conducting 
complex investigations across State lines. I would hope any 
such task force would be nimble enough to follow organized 
retail crime as their methods evolve.
    In 2022, Congress passed the Informed Consumers Act to 
bring more transparency to online transactions on certain 
platforms. Perpetrators of organized retail crime took note and 
moved their operations to smaller platforms not covered by the 
law.
    A nationwide task force would help us make sure our laws 
are being kept up with criminals and to ensure law enforcement 
at all levels is empowered to counter organized retail crime.
    I am glad that we have a very strong panel here today to 
share their expert knowledge and experience, and to discuss 
solutions that will better protect employees, consumers, and 
communities across the country.
    I thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. Without objection, 
all other opening statements will be included in the record.
    We will now introduce today's witnesses. I recognize the 
gentleman from California, Mr. Issa, for the purpose of 
introducing Hon. Summer Stephan, without objection.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    This is truly a great pleasure. There is not enough you can 
say about Summer's tenure as District Attorney. She came into 
an organization that needed help. She rebuilt it and then 
fought off those time and time again who tried to undercut her 
ability to prosecute and keep San Diego a city that, in fact, 
has recent one of the safest large cities in America.
    Particularly, she fought for Prop. 36. For those who don't 
know Prop. 36 in California, we had created a situation at the 
State level in which there was no crime for shoplifting. 
Effectively, the $900 rule couldn't even be implemented because 
you couldn't find out how much they were leaving with.
    If they left with a case of high-end liquor, you couldn't 
stop them finding out if there was over $900 of high-end 
liquor. At the end of the day they didn't just steal $900 for 
10-15 times a day, they in fact may have been stealing more but 
with impunity.
    As many of the others in their opening statements 
mentioned, there was a gap between the Federal and the State. 
Summer worked very hard with U.S. attorneys of both parties to 
try to narrow that gap and begin some prosecution.
    She particularly, unlike many district attorneys, was 
willing to go to the field. Whether it is dealing with the 
retailers, or going into homeless encampments to see those 
goods being dumped in massive amounts after being stolen, she 
has been there. Her advocacy made a difference in the outcome 
of Prop. 36.
    Since the time of its input, its passage, she has 
prosecuted more than 2,000 repeat felons, created a situation 
in which San Diego is once again a place where retailers can 
operate and work with the Federal Government on organized crime 
that ultimately is the back end of much of that theft.
    I am thrilled to see my longtime friend and our ally in San 
Diego and welcome her. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes. At this moment I will recognize the Ranking 
Member Mr. Raskin for a U.C. request.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you kindly, Mr. Chair. I ask U.C. to 
enter a statement for the record, dated today, December 17, 
2025, from ICSC, representing 50,000 North American marketplace 
professionals, including owners and developers of retail 
centers, as well as retail tenants, investors, and developers.
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection. I will now introduce the rest 
of the witnesses.
    Mr. Scott McBride is the Chief Global Asset Protection 
Officer of American Eagle Outfitters, a lifestyle brand and 
retailer with locations worldwide. In his role, Mr. McBride is 
responsible for the comprehensive protection of the company's 
assets across five continents.
    Mr. Chris Spear is the President and Chief Executive 
Officer of the American Trucking Association, an organization 
made up of trucking companies. He also serves on the Board of 
Directors for the American Transportation Research Institute 
and the Trucking Cares Foundation.
    Mr. Shane Bennett is the Principal of Theft, Fraud, and 
Abuse at Target. He previously was the Director of Assets 
Protection and Field Investigations for Target where he led 
strategy and personnel who addressed organized retail crime.
    We welcome our witnesses. Thank you for appearing today.
    Will you each stand so we can swear you in. Please raise 
your right hands.
    Do each of you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury 
that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to 
the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help 
you God?
    [Affirmative response.]
    Mr. Biggs. Let the record reflect the witnesses have 
answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. Thank you.
    I want you to know that your written testimony will be 
entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we are 
asking you to summarize your testimony in five minutes. If you 
get close you will hear this at first. Then, if you get really 
long you will hear a whack with the gavel to remind you that 
time has expired.
    I will remind; I will try to remind you so you can turn on 
your microphone when you speak.
    We will now recognize Mr. Bennett for his five-minute 
opening statement.

                   STATEMENT OF SHANE BENNETT

    Mr. Bennett. Chair Biggs, Ranking Member Cohen, and the 
esteemed Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to address the Committee today on a very pressing 
issue.
    My name is Shane Bennett, and I have nearly 40 years of 
experience in assets protection and fraud prevention. 
Currently, I lead retail crime strategy for Target 
Corporation's Fraud and Abuse Team, focused on large-scale 
organized retail crime, or ORC.
    Target is a great American company with more than 400,000 
team members and 2,000 stores, all here in the U.S.
    Over my career I have worked in stores, in the field as an 
ORC investigation, and in my current role in fraud and abuse. I 
have witnessed first-hand how dangerous and highly coordinated 
ORC has become and the impact it has had on both consumers and 
businesses.
    This isn't about casual shoplifters. Organized retail crime 
is far more advanced. No single State or retailer can see the 
full picture. Retail crime enterprises deliberately operate 
across jurisdictions to evade detection and prosecution. This 
makes it very difficult for State and local agencies to 
investigate their activities without the help of Federal 
partners.
    The Combating Organized Retail Crime Act, or CORCA, would 
help bridge that gap.
    The impact on consumers, your constituents, is significant. 
These criminal enterprises contribute to lower product 
availability on shelves, increased safety risks for both our 
team members and guests, and disrupt supply chains, and 
ultimately fuels widespread financial fraud which funds 
criminal activities impacting our communities.
    More recently, gift card scams have surged. I am certain 
that many of your constituents have been or know a victim. The 
Department of Homeland Security has estimated more than $1 
billion in fraud losses over the past two years. A 2022 AARP 
study found that one out of every three Americans have either 
experienced gift card fraud themselves or know someone who has.
    This issue becomes even more urgent during the holiday 
season when gift card purchases spike, as people turn to them 
as easy last-minute gifts. Although there are several fraud 
vectors involving gift cards targeting consumers and 
businesses, one example is gift card tampering.
    Criminals steal inactive gift cards off retail shelves, 
tamper with the card by copying the activation data, then 
reseal them before putting them back on store shelves. Once an 
unsuspecting shopper loads money onto that card at checkout, 
fraudsters use sophisticated methods to detect the balance and 
drain the funds. Ultimately, profits funding criminal 
organizations.
    At Target we have built a multilayered prevention model to 
combat this fraud. This includes real-time analytics, increased 
training and education for our team members, and an industry-
leading innovation like our decoupled gift card technology. 
This helps prevent fraud activation and protects our guests and 
your constituents from being targeted by criminals.
    Retailers cannot combat gift card fraud alone. We work 
closely with partners through the Gift Card Fraud Prevention 
Alliance educating consumers, sharing data, and identifying 
interstate trends. Additionally, our partnerships with Federal 
agencies are essential.
    For example, Target and industry partners coordinate with 
Federal law enforcement through Project Red Hook, an initiative 
with Homeland Security investigations. This collaboration 
traces elicit financial flows, identifies transnational fraud 
networks, and disrupts organized retail crime operations that 
span multiple States.
    In the past two years there have been 232 arrests, with 
asset seizures totaling approximately $8 million. This 
partnership shows that we can dismantle criminal groups. The 
Combating Organized Retail Crime Act would strengthen and 
expand the model by providing tools needed to disrupt the 
sophisticated criminal networks and protect consumers.
    Target, along with the entire retail community strongly 
supporting CORCA, urges Congress to pass this bipartisan 
legislation quickly.
    Thank you for your leadership on this issue. I look forward 
to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Shane Bennett follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. We appreciate your testimony. Now, I 
recognize District Attorney Stephan for her five-minute opening 
statement.

              STATEMENT OF THE HON. SUMMER STEPHAN

    Ms. Stephan. Thank you, Chair Biggs, Ranking Member Cohen, 
Ranking Member Raskin, and the Members of the Subcommittee for 
this opportunity to speak before you.
    I am before you as a 35-year prosecutor. For the record, 
that
is longer than I have been alive not a prosecutor. I rose 
through
the ranks to become the elected District Attorney for San Diego 
County.
    For perspective, San Diego County is the fifth largest 
county in the United States. I have the honor of serving 3.3 
million people that call San Diego home. I am also the Chair of 
the National District Attorney's Association, one of the oldest 
prosecutor associations in the Nation.
    A few years ago, we saw that organized retail theft was not 
what it used to be, that it was highly organized and highly 
sophisticated. To keep up with it, we needed to get organized. 
I formed within my office an Organized Retail Theft Task Force 
and worked with our police departments on combating this crime.
    With that we have had great success. I believe that we may 
be the office that has prosecuted more organized retail theft. 
In three years, we brought 336 defendants who were responsible 
for organized-retail theft to justice, with losses to stores of 
$3,208,000.
    This is just the tip of the iceberg. One of the reasons 
that I am so grateful for the work of this Committee is because 
despite all the resources where I put this task force, and the 
number of people we have prosecuted, we have not been able to 
get past the booster level--that is the people who are 
conducting the theft. Then, in many cases where we were able to 
build through search warrants, cell phone evidence, capturing 
camera evidence, we were able to go up the chain to the fence 
level.
    We recognized very quickly that we did not get through as a 
county prosecutor to the level of the organized criminals that 
are pulling the strings and that area responsible for reselling 
the products or shipping them overseas to never be found again.
    I am going to give you an example of a case that we did 
recently that I think really illustrates this point.
    We had a very sophisticated heist at a chain jewelry store. 
They targeted Rolex watches. Within a couple of days, as we 
were putting the case together, we were able to make some 
arrests and discovered that the Rolex watches were all already 
shipped overseas.
    What really made me more passionate about the fact that 
this needs to be a whole-nation effort is because we discovered 
that the same crew was also responsible for the same type of 
thing in the State of Washington. We had no alert system or a 
data bank of Federal, State, and locals to address and to get 
an alert that they might be coming for us because we have a 
very fancy store just like the one in Washington.
    That is just one example. We have had many cases, 
especially in the crews that target commercial and home 
burglaries that we have discovered have committed a chain of 
those across the United States.
    When we got them, we were able to get the group, but we 
were not able to recover the product nor to get up to the 
chain, the international and national chain that is involved.
    I also want to tell you that another thing about being on 
the ground is that this is such a victim-centered crime. When 
we prosecuted the Ultra store $700,000 heist, looking in the 
eyes of those young workers that expected to have a safe place 
to work and found out that they couldn't even look at the 
thieves because they would look at them, like, ``What are you 
looking at? You can't do anything about it.''
    That really made it clear that we need a national data bank 
so that we can really go after this sophisticated crime, these 
criminals, and protect our employees and our community.
    Thank you very much for this opportunity.
    [The prepared statement of the Hon. Summer Stephan 
follows:]

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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thank you. Now, we recognize Mr. 
Spear for his five minutes of testimony.

                    STATEMENT OF CHRIS SPEAR

    Mr. Spear. Chair Biggs, Congressman Cohen, and the 
Subcommittee Members, thank you for the opportunity to testify 
about the rapid rise in cargo theft and the threat that it 
poses to our economy as well as our national security.
    For over 90 years the American Trucking Associations has 
represented an industry that now employs 8.4 million of the 
hardest working men and women in the country. Today these 
Americans are on the front lines of an escalating crisis, and 
they need backup from Congress.
    Brazen thieves are robbing our industry to the tune of $18 
million a day. Motor carriers not only have to replace stolen 
products, but shoulder higher insurance premiums and invest in 
new security measures. These added expenses put jobs and 
businesses at risk. Those elevated costs for fleets are felt by 
consumers at the store.
    Plainly, there is a direct connection to rampant cargo 
theft and what Americans are paying at grocery stores. Across 
the supply chain cargo theft is estimated to cost up to $35 
billion annually. This is money that belongs in consumers' 
wallets, not criminals' pockets.
    There are two categories of cargo theft: Straight theft and 
strategic theft.
    Straight theft has been around since trucks have been on a 
road a century ago. It involves the physical theft of cargo 
from a distribution center or the back of a truck. Crews will 
stop tractor trailers and strike when they are stopped at a 
rest area or even a traffic light, putting truck drivers and 
other essential supply chain workers directly in harm's way.
    In Arizona police recently arrested several individuals who 
had stolen six figures worth of energy drinks. They were later 
linked to a $3 million heist of electronics.
    In Georgia four men were recently convicted for multiple 
thefts of electronics, copper, and apparel, totaling more than 
$1.7 million across the entire Southeast.
    These incidents are happening in every State and in every 
district.
    In contrast, strategic theft involved the use of advanced 
cyber tactics to trick shippers, brokers, and carriers to 
divert and hand over their loads. This hi-tech form of cargo 
theft has become a digital renaissance for thieves, surging 
1,500 percent since 2021.
    Over 90 percent of fleets are small businesses operating 10 
trucks or fewer, but they are forced to compete in an arms race 
trying to match the formidable technological capabilities of 
sophisticated criminals who are often based overseas.
    Transnational aspects of cargo theft also make it a 
national security issue. Proceeds from stolen goods finance 
other criminal activities, including drug trafficking, 
organized crime, and even potentially terrorism. In just one 
example, shipments of high-end refrigerators were stolen from 
one of our Memphis, Tennessee, members in St. Louis. The local 
police filed a report but declined to investigate further.
    Several months later the ATF stumbled across the 
refrigerators when they raided a warehouse. They were being 
stuffed with U.S. drug profits before being sent back across 
the Southern border.
    What the local police dismissed as a simple insurance 
matter turned out to be a pivotal piece of a Mexican cartel's 
operation.
    Trucking is interstate by nature, which means the thieves 
targeting the cargo we haul are interstate as well. The State 
and local law enforcement often lack the resources and the 
jurisdiction to adequately investigate cross-border crimes. 
This is clearly a Federal responsibility. Only the U.S. 
Government is equipped with the capability and the 
constitutional authority to pursue criminals across State and 
international lines.
    For these reasons ATA strongly supports the enactment of 
the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act. This legislation will 
provide law enforcement with tools and enhanced legal 
frameworks to combat this highly complex national and 
international threat.
    Rather than ignoring what our economy needs, CORCA would 
centralize data in coordination with Federal, State, local, and 
industry, and proactively unravel schemes orchestrated by 
transna-
tional crimes.
    The theft of cargo is a nationwide problem, and it requires 
a national solution. By bringing the fight to organized theft 
groups, CORCA would help safeguard Americans who work in our 
supply chain, and it would protect national security.
    Thank you. I look forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Chris Spear follows:]
    
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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. The Chair next recognizes Mr. McBride 
for his five-minutes opening statement.

                   STATEMENT OF SCOTT McBRIDE

    Mr. McBride. Chair Biggs, Congressman Cohen, and the 
esteemed Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to address the critical issues of organized retail 
crime.
    ORC is not new. What is new is the ferocity, 
sophistication, frequency, and geographic reach that has 
escalated dramatically in the last five years. These criminal 
networks exploit the internet and encrypted messaging apps to 
recruit thieves, coordinate consolidation of stolen goods, and 
liquidate them through illicit online marketplaces or black-
market sites.
    They even exfiltrated stolen products out of the country.
    Simultaneously, retailers have invested in new technologies 
and provided clear insights into the scope of these thefts: 
Time stamping video evidence, pinpointing locations of the 
missing items, and enhanced collaboration with law enforcement. 
Despite our efforts, the problem continues to grow.
    ORC is far more than simple shoplifting. It represents a 
sophisticated criminal network and enterprises perpetrating 
massive thefts and escalating violence against our associates 
and customers.
    These groups cross jurisdictional lines to avoid 
prosecution, deploy professional-style tactics to field their 
nefarious operations, including diverse logistics, illicit 
liquidation, financial crimes, and recruitment.
    They repeatedly victimize retail stores of all sizes, from 
the mall, to the strip center, to the big box, and Main Street; 
and from home improvement, to grocery, to apparel, and sporting 
goods. They interrupt the normal shopping experience for our 
customers, demoralize our associates, and disrupt our supply 
chains.
    The rise in retail theft and violence is highlighted in the 
NRF's annual Impact of Violence and Theft report. This year's 
data reveals that retailers have experienced a 19 percent 
increase in merchandise thefts over the past year, compounding 
on the reported 24 percent increase from 2022-2023.
    On violence, 51 percent of retailers report thieves are 
more aggressive this year than the following 73--and in 
addition to the 73 percent increase from last year.
    In-store theft is only one aspect of organized retail 
crime. Groups have become more sophisticated in both method and 
tactic. Over the past year, 70 percent of retailers have 
reported increases in phone scams; 55 percent increased the 
digital and e-commerce fraud; and over 50 percent saw increases 
in cargo theft.
    Criminal groups utilize military-style tactics, counter-
surveillance to commit cargo thefts on railroads, complex 
deception tactics to obtain gift cards, and cybercriminals' 
activities to steal freight across the supply chain.
    Consider one of my most recent cases where Homeland 
Security Investigations worked alongside State and local police 
to investigate and interdict a consolidation and exfiltration 
scheme:
    Stolen apparel was being prepared for packing into sea-land 
containers destined to cross the Texas border into Mexico. With 
the assistance of corporate investigators, HSI recovered 
approximately 2,000 pairs of American Eagle jeans, retail value 
of $100,000, inside of nearly $2 million in other apparel.
    RFID research revealed my items were stolen from 35 stores 
across 13 States within the past four weeks of that time. The 
group was tied to a group out of Houston and Katy, Texas, that 
linked to transnational criminal organizations in Mexico.
    Another example is when 35--I am sorry. A further example 
is when 20 stolen vehicles arrived with more than 40 
individuals suddenly converging on a suburban mall. Armed with 
implements of destruction ranging from tire irons to firearms 
that endangered customers and threatened staff to commit theft. 
This was a coordinated attack with premeditated malice and a 
determination to plunder and escape. The stolen items were not 
necessities. This group operated under the direction of a 
larger entity, with the means to mobilize and monetize their 
illicit gains.
    In conclusion, the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act, 
CORCA, is an essential missing layer. It would establish a 
Cargo Theft and Retail Crime Coordination Center, bringing 
together Federal, State, and local law enforcement with private 
sector experts to share vital information. As a professional 
dedicated to protecting consumers and associates, I implore all 
the Members of Congress to work together to ensure the 
Combating Organized Retail Act urgently becomes law.
    Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to 
testify. I look forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Scott McBride follows:]
    
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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I recognize myself now to enter a 
U.C. We have a letter from the National Association of 
Convenience Stores about this issue and about this topic. I 
will admit that into the record without objection.
    Now, I recognize the gentleman from North Carolina Mr. 
Knott for his five minutes.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for holding this 
an important hearing.
    To the witnesses who are here, I look forward to this 
conversation.
    We are very excited to have this hearing because it 
addresses a very real problem. It addresses just one more area 
of American life that organized crime is really striking at the 
heart. When you step back and look at the effect of organized 
crime, for a variety of reasons, including unchecked migration 
from people all over the world coming to this country, some of 
whom are coming with bad intent. If you look at weak law 
enforcement policies, antilaw enforcement policies.
    You look at former drug dealers are now cartel operatives. 
If you look at former welfare chiefs are now international 
fraudsters. Old neighborhood brawls have turned into war zones, 
gun battles. If you look at local gangs are now being replaced 
with international crime syndicates.
    That extension has certainly gone into retail crime. Many 
of you have mentioned that already. In my experience in law 
enforcement, of all those particular types of crime, most 
Americans are least familiar with organized retail crime even 
though organized retail crime affects, arguably, every single 
American the most.
    By some estimates, I've seen that the direct cost for 
organized retail theft is over $100 billion a year in this 
country. It is growing. The indirect costs are many multiples 
higher than that.
    In regard to my observations as a former prosecutor, often 
when you observed a petty crime, an individual crime, it was 
one spoken in a much larger wheel.
    To that extent, Ms. Stephan, I want to start with you. A 
lot of people who are questioning this bill have a fear that it 
is going to take away local law enforcement's ability to fight 
this crime.
    As a former Federal prosecutor, I used to work with local 
law enforcement to attack crime.
    Please tell us why Federal assistance in tackling organized 
retail theft is needed from a district attorney's perspective?
    Ms. Stephan. Thank you for that question. Absolutely there 
is a role for State prosecutors, like I talked about. There is 
a role for Federal prosecutors.
    One great example of how you can split, conquer, and make 
your community safe is an elder justice task force where we 
were able to take real action against these scammers that are 
going after our elderly. We could only, again, get to the 
people that were showing up at the doorstep of our elderly and 
prosecute them.
    By teaming up in a task force that included the U.S. 
Attorney, we were able, the Federal Government was able to do a 
RICO action. You know what that is?
    Mr. Knott. Sure.
    Ms. Stephan. There is a lot of power to bring the higher-
ups of these terrible scammers that are abusing our seniors.
    Mr. Knott. Sure.
    Ms. Stephan. I envision the same thing for retail theft.
    Mr. Knott. Organized retail crime does not stop at your 
jurisdictional boundary, does it?
    Ms. Stephan. Not at all.
    Mr. Knott. In regard to the crimes I mentioned--gangs, 
drugs, violent criminals, and fraudsters--there is a Federal 
forum for those criminals?
    Ms. Stephan. Absolutely.
    Mr. Knott. If it is a logical extension, why would we not 
have a Federal forum for organized retail thieves?
    Ms. Stephan. These criminals travel across county lines and 
State lines, and international lines, so the only way that you 
can defeat a big monster like that is to come together and 
leverage our individual power set to take care of our 
communities.
    Mr. Knott. It's safe to say it would be a partnership, not 
a replacement, in the Federal law enforcement?
    Ms. Stephan. Absolutely. I don't plan on being replaced.
    Mr. Knott. Right. Yes, ma'am. Mr. McBride, I want to talk 
to you briefly.
    You talked about the levels of sophistication of these 
international crime syndicates. Can you describe who these 
people are and what type of mechanisms they utilize to further 
their criminal activity?
    Mr. McBride. Thank you for the question, Congressman. I 
cannot speak to exactly who they are. That is more of a 
question for HSI and the law enforcement agencies that have 
ties or information on that.
    Mr. Knott. In your experience, what have you observed?
    Mr. McBride. In my experience, we know that exfiltration 
schemes, and we are getting a clearer and clearer picture 
because of data that we are able to collect on our own product, 
that is showing there is a highly sophisticated levels of roles 
and responsibilities within these organizations.
    Some people do not leave the State. They commit the crime 
but they are working for someone that is outside the State, or 
even outside the country, who might be a shot-caller that is 
developing this mechanism and is employing--and I say that 
loosely as a term--employing them to do these crimes at 
different levels for different jobs, whether it is the 
boosting, the muling or moving the product, cleaning it and 
consolidating it, and reshipping it to a central location and 
then the exfiltration abroad.
    Mr. Knott. It is safe to say this is not just an interstate 
issue, it is an international issue, is it not?
    Mr. McBride. It is. Transnational polycriminal 
organizations are the ones that are really calling the shots 
here.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. Thank you.
    Mr. Knott. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. McBride. Thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Tennessee, Mr. Cohen.
    Mr. Cohen. Thank you, sir. I want to followup on Mr. 
Knott's question. I am going to start with District Attorney 
Stephan, Darrell Issa's friend.
    Is this deterrent-based car theft devices, does that help 
your situation? They can't get into the cars with these devices 
on them, can they?
    Ms. Stephan. Well, innovations like that have been very 
helpful in auto thefts; that's correct.
    Mr. Cohen. Darrell's fighting crime?
    Ms. Stephan. Pardon me?
    Mr. Cohen. Darrell's fighting crime was we speak. As you 
speak, right?
    Mr. McBride couldn't give us any names. Mr. Knott wanted 
some names. I'd like some.
    Who? Who are we talking about? In drugs we know it is El 
Chapo, and Pablo Escobar, and blah-blah-blah. Who is it in this 
situation? Who are the big names? Do you get any of them ever?
    Ms. Stephan. Well, we know some names, yes. We know that, 
for example, when it comes to what I talked about, the 
commercial burglaries and the home burglary crews, those we 
have been able to identify with a group that is abusing what is 
called an ESTA visa. That is coming from a variety of 
countries.
    They are coming in, and then getting replaced and another 
group comes in and just follows through with what they have 
been doing. That has been identified.
    Mr. Cohen. Can you tell us the names? Are they big crime 
syndicates or are they just crime?
    Ms. Stephan. Well, I think it is big crime because it is 
affecting a lot of people, victims in my community.
    Mr. Cohen. Right.
    Ms. Stephan. I go by what the Federal Government is what 
does the designations. I know that the FBI has designated them 
as a crossnational, transnational crime group.
    Mr. Cohen. San Diego is different than Memphis and Kansas 
City. You are on the international border.
    Ms. Stephan. Yes.
    Mr. Cohen. Are cities in the interior of the United States 
getting the same type of crimes? Are they people from outside 
the country that are doing this predominantly?
    I see some bobbing heads in the crowd. Do you bob, too?
    Ms. Stephan. From the people that we have captured in these 
commercial and residential burglary crews, they have hit 
multiple States. I don't think that they are traveling from 
State-to-State very easily. I can't tell you they are in your 
State. We have had cases where they have Arizona, they have got 
the State of Washington. They have got Colorado.
    We have had several sophisticated crews that have come 
across multiple countries. How do we know? It is when we arrest 
them and we download their phones using the proper search 
warrant. We are able to track their communications and their 
movements.
    They usually rent cars in different locations and start 
over. This is very sophisticated. It is not like the fentanyl 
where I can tell you exactly where it is coming from and who is 
producing it. It is much more distributed.
    My answer to you would be this: That without a database we 
are not going to be able to connect the dots.
    Mr. Cohen. That in the CORCA bill, that they would be one?
    Ms. Stephan. Exactly. In the CORCA bill, Section 17, Number 
6, it talks specifically about that part of what it is going to 
uncover is connections with intersections with other criminal 
activity, like potentially elder scams, like human trafficking.
    Mr. Cohen. I have only got about a minute left. Let me ask 
you this, and if anybody else can answer me, too.
    What I am trying, and I don't know if I know the names 
anyway, but is there an Al Capone out there? Is there some big 
criminal type that is in charge of this whole deal?
    Ms. Stephan. Not that I know of.
    Mr. Cohen. OK.
    Ms. Stephan. What I do know is we haven't done enough to 
get the answer. We won't get the answer without a task force.
    Mr. Cohen. Right.
    Mr. McBride. Congressman, I can only speak to following our 
product. Our product is being exfiltrated across the Texas 
border into Mexico. Our product is being interdicted in the 
Port of Long Beach, headed for Colombia, South America.
    We have also been involved in investigations with HSI on 
container shipments outside of the port of New Jersey.
    Those products are being loaded into a container. That 
container is being manifested to leave the country. All of the 
products is stolen from multiple retailers, mine included, 
inside of those containers.
    We have recovered many of them. Some have slipped through 
and not been able to be stopped.
    From a transnational perspective there are kingpins out 
there. I do not know their names. I am not privy to that law 
enforcement side. There is probably confidential information 
that is not being shared with the retailers where those--
    Mr. Cohen. We need to talk--we need to talk to the FBI and 
Kash Patel. This should be his area of jurisdiction; is that 
correct?
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. You may answer 
the question, Mr. McBride.
    Mr. McBride. I believe that it is a Federal issue and that 
we need national link analysis. The HSI has been the most 
helpful so far. We would expect that they would be able to lead 
this charge.
    The FBI is certainly involved as a partner, along with 
other Federal agencies.
    Mr. Cohen. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from 
Florida, Ms. Lee, for five minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this important 
hearing.
    Thank you to all our witnesses for being here with us 
today. You have highlighted something that is so important for 
us in Congress to recognize, and that is that the threat of 
organized retail crime has grown exponentially. Today we are 
seeing such sophisticated schemes involving fraud, 
impersonation, and also cyber-related tactics. That 
necessitates, in my ways, a Federal coordinated response.
    In my home State of Florida we have seen an increase in 
cargo theft. It is impacting freight hubs all over our State. 
The increasing sophistication of these criminal networks 
highlights that need for greater Federal law enforcement 
support.
    Mr. Spear, I would like to go back to you and your 
testimony.
    One of the things that you noted is that there is in some 
State and local law enforcement areas a lack of resources in 
jurisdiction. You noted that this was clearly a Federal 
responsibility.
    I would like to hear a bit more from you about that lack of 
resources in jurisdiction, how it is affecting crime prevention 
in this way and, also, the advanced cyber tactics that are 
being used to disrupt our cargo transport and, also, the safe 
containment of these retail products.
    Mr. Spear. Thank you, Congresswoman. Yes, I would be happy 
to.
    Trucking obviously operates in all 50 States, every 
congressional district. We see the panoramic view of the 
Nation. Moving freight State-to-State is a daily experience for 
us.
    We work with State law enforcement, we work with local law 
enforcement. The problem with this is that you are obviously 
moving from one point to another, this freight can get taken at 
any point in time, in any State. It is that sporadic.
    Obviously, we will work with local law enforcement if they 
are first on the scene, State law enforcement. That freight 
can, obviously, be in another State before we can even figure 
out that it was taken.
    The speed of our response the ability to share information 
quickly, Federal databases could be a harbinger for that to 
really understand the broader ramifications, not just about 
where the freight could be headed in different States, but 
also, other links and organizations that might be responsible 
for it.
    The local and State law enforcement aren't going to have 
that ability to see State-to-State, see Federal. That panoramic 
view is the missing piece of the puzzle. OK? We are working 
just fine local and State. It is getting the national fabric, 
that interstate fabric into the puzzle to make it complete and 
actually be able to go after these criminal organizations 
effectively with the speed that we need to tackle the problem.
    The transnational criminal organizations, that is an 
international element. That is the strategic theft that we are 
speaking to. These groups are operating out of Eastern Europe, 
Russia, South Africa, and China. These are places where if you 
have a laptop, you have access to a process, a system. You can 
go into a bill of lading and redirect freight as it is in 
motion.
    We have had members that the driver thinks it is 
legitimate, it is the company's system that is telling them to 
redirect, drop the freight to a dummy site. That freight is 
long gone before they even figure out that it was taken. That 
is going to require multiple States being part of a Federal 
fabric to be able to understand where that threat is coming 
from and how to prevent it.
    The State and local governments do not have the capability 
to attack transnational organizations. That is a Federal 
responsibility. It is the missing piece of the puzzle. If you 
put it in under CORCA, then you really have a full solution to 
tackling this problem quickly.
    Ms. Lee. Mr. Bennett, I would like to go back to you on 
this subject. I know that you also work a lot in digital and 
cyber defense in your position.
    Would you please comment on the that organized retail crime 
is no longer limited to in-store theft. You touched on a couple 
of these other digital consequences, things that are happening.
    What are you working on? What are you seeing from a cyber 
defenses perspective and how technology is being used to help 
promote and perpetrate these schemes?
    Mr. Bennett. Representative Lee, thank you very much for 
the question.
    From my perspective, the work that we do on our team, this 
is a really important element from a technological perspective. 
Advanced analytics, identifying atoms of behavior, all these 
things are critically important.
    I am sure everyone on the panel has received a text message 
that says you didn't pay--you need to pay a fee or a fine in 
EZPass. At first glance that doesn't seem like organized retail 
crime. You might not connect it to organized retail crime. That 
is a fraudster fishing information from you that ultimately is 
going to turn into some sort of laundering activity, in large 
part in the retail environment.
    Those are examples of how consumers see ORC, and they don't 
realize it. It might look like an individual issue. It is 
connected to a much larger scheme and scam. I know I mentioned 
our gift cards early on. We could talk about that.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, thank you. Time has expired. Thank you.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, 
Mr. Nehls.
    Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for being 
here.
    As a former sheriff for Fort Bend County, Texas, in law 
enforcement for 30 years, back in 2017-2018 already we were 
experiencing organized crime in the greater Houston area. We 
arrested several individuals from Venezuela coming in, 
creating, committing many, many burglaries, and residential 
burglaries. We had them coming in from Honduras and everywhere 
else.
    I believe that many of these burglars would come into our 
country having been deported previously several times for 
previous crimes. Personally, I believe what you guys are 
experiencing right now and the increase of crime is because of 
our Southern border, and that porous Southern border over the 
past several years.
    Would you agree--if I can go down the line, would you agree 
that our policies at the Southern border have contributed to 
this chaos we see in organized theft and retail theft across 
the country? Just a yes or no.
    Ms. Stephan. I can't answer that.
    Mr. Nehls. OK, then we will go to the next. Mr. Bennett, 
yes or no?
    Mr. Bennett. The view that we often have in retail is 
limited, so I can't really answer that.
    Mr. Nehls. OK.
    Mr. Spear. We move 76 percent of the USMCA freight. Yes, it 
is definitely an issue. We are a moving target.
    Mr. Nehls. Yes. You highlighted the fact that they were--
you are the one who talked about the refrigerators?
    Mr. Spear. That is correct.
    Mr. Nehls. They were going back across to Mexico and 
everybody else.
    Mr. Spear. That is correct. How about you, Mr. McBride?
    Mr. McBride. I do not have any data that would lead me to 
be able to say yes or no.
    Mr. Nehls. Well, the average person that has served in law 
enforcement for all the years, you are seeing what Tren de 
Aragua was doing. I am assuming that they are probably involved 
with some of this.
    In just my experience as a sheriff, I think over the past 
several years our Southern border policies has contributed to 
this chaos, whether it is in just retail or just part one 
crimes, everything. Assault, all of it is a result of our 
Southern border. I am going to make a prediction.
    You have seen an increase in crime. The numbers you said 
that over the past several years these crimes have become 
increasing. Do you believe that with our position now at the 
Southern border with Donald J. Trump, are you optimistic that 
we are going to see a reduction in some of this organized 
retail crime as a result of our position at the Southern border 
with they are just not letting anybody in anymore?
    Just yes or no, ma'am.
    Ms. Stephan. I can tell you definitively when it comes to 
drugs and fentanyl, yes. I cannot tell you with regard to 
retail theft.
    Mr. Nehls. I am assuming retail theft would probably help 
them with their drug addiction.
    Mr. Bennett. My perspective would be that we need the 
support from the Federal Government to help solve this issue.
    Mr. Spear. If he signs this bill, CORCA, absolutely. We 
will have the piece of the puzzle that we need to combat it, 
not just domestically but internationally.
    Mr. McBride. My position is that organized retail crime is 
recruiting and has recruited more than we know across all 
States, and that CORCA is the only way that we are going to get 
visibility to this type of crime in this country.
    Mr. Nehls. Well, again, through my experience as a sheriff 
and arresting some of these bad hombres, knowing that after we 
have arrested them they have been deported four, five, six 
times for some of the same damn crimes they have committed 
before, we have arrested but they keep coming back, I will just 
say this, Mr. Bennett, the Federal Government is getting 
involved because Donald J. Trump has secured the Southern 
border. He secured the Southern border.
    The way you reduce all this recidivism is by keep them out 
of our country; right? Keep them out.
    I support the idea of a task force, by the way, Mr. Chair. 
I think it is a great idea. I believe that we are going to come 
back, maybe have a hearing in another year or so, and you are 
going to have a better attitude about this, because that the 
Southern border is a serious, serious issue. Now that it has 
been solved by keeping the bad hombres out, help is on its way 
is what I say.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. I recognize the 
gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Tiffany.
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Bennett, the leading home improvement retailer in the 
Midwest, they gave me an example of theft that has happened in 
their stores. Does this sound plausible? The numbers are really 
staggering.
    In 2022, a husband-and-wife team stoled over $33,000 worth 
of goods. They have stolen half a million dollars from other 
retailers.
    Nineteen different teams of Romani suspects--some people 
referred, or some people refer to them as Gypsies--crossed the 
Midwest stealing electrical breakers, $165,000.
    In 2024, eight different suspects committed theft via 
credit card to the tune of $224,000 at 46 locations. A total of 
107 individual police reports, only three have been arrested.
    In 2025, 209 separate instances of rental equipment theft, 
128 different stores, $350,000 loss. Is this plausible?
    Mr. Bennett. Representative Tiffany, thank you for the 
question.
    I am not familiar with all those cases, obviously, with a 
partner retailer, but certainly it is plausible.
    Mr. Tiffany. I mean, $165,000 of electrical breakers? What 
the heck are they doing with them?
    Mr. Bennett. Well, I can speak to my space here on fraud. I 
can tell you that there are numbers of consumers that are 
victimized.
    I have worked on cases where we have had 38 victims from 38 
different States all linked to one investigation. These sort of 
complex, structured activities are certainly, certainly 
plausible.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Spear, I am going to followup on Mr. 
Nehls' questioning here.
    About the Southern border, doesn't it make sense if we are 
being diligent as a Federal Government on our Southern border 
about who is coming in and out of the country, that some of 
these bad actors are transnational; is that correct?
    Mr. Spear. That is correct.
    Mr. Tiffany. The best way to access us is oftentimes the 
Southern border; correct?
    Mr. Spear. It's a contributing factor.
    Mr. Tiffany. Doesn't it just make sense, then, that by 
securing the Southern border for this particular issue that it 
is going to be helpful?
    Mr. Spear. There is no question about that. The Southern 
border is certainly an element to it. It is a very complex 
problem. It is not just the Southern border. It is legit, no 
doubt, but this is happening electronically, the strategic 
theft that I have spoken about. That is the 1,500 percent rise 
since 2021.
    Again, if you have a laptop you can access. A lot of these 
groups want to fly under the radar.
    I understand Congressman Cohen's question about names. I 
wouldn't focus on names; I would focus on numbers. This is a 
vast volume of freight being stolen electronically and 
redirected. A lot of it is getting shipped out of the country.
    This goes way beyond hit and run type of theft, the 
straight theft that we have seen over 100 years with trucks. 
This is a very complex, digitally driven renaissance. This is 
really sophisticated stuff. A lot of it is being handled out of 
Eastern Europe.
    I was just over meeting with the European Parliament, 
educating them on the problem in their backyard. They were 
oblivious. They had absolutely no idea that a lot of the theft 
that is occurring here in the United States is originating in 
their backyard.
    There needs to be an element, a Federal element that 
coordinates that. The States' localities do not coordinate with 
INTER-POL. That is a Federal responsibility between DHS, DOJ, 
and DOT. Bringing them into the puzzle, completing that fabric 
and being able to coordinate the broader implication beyond the 
Southern border is really what we are looking for.
    Mr. Tiffany. You are talking about all elements need to 
work together; right?
    Mr. Spear. All elements.
    Mr. Tiffany. As Mr. Cohen or, no, Mr. Raskin commented 
about this is not your average shoplifter. There are some 
prosecutors who are going to have to up their game; right? I am 
not referring to you. Mr. Issa gave a glowing review of the 
work that you have done, District Attorney.
    Isn't it correct that prosecutors need to do their job 
also; is that correct?
    Mr. Spear. Absolutely. It is just all the pieces have to 
work. Nobody is trying to take jurisdiction from the others; it 
is just fulfilling those parts and pieces.
    Sharing information is step one. You have got to be able to 
understand beyond one State where the cargo is moving. Is it 
the origin where it originated? Is it in motion? Is it the 
destination? That could, that could canvas multiple States.
    Who do you file it with? Where does it go? That depository 
is really needed.
    Mr. Tiffany. I want to get one final question in for Mr. 
McBride.
    Which State policies targeting organized crime in your 
opinion have been effective? What State policies have been 
effective?
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. You may 
answer, Mr. McBride.
    Mr. McBride. Yes, Congressman. Thank you for the question.
    There is multiple States that have enacted organized retail 
crime laws. Those are being very, very effective within those 
States. The challenge is we need that national level link 
analysis and coordination center to be able to tie those 
together. Thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. I now 
recognize the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore, for his five 
minutes.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. McBride, have there 
been changes in the types of merchandise targeted by criminals 
in ORC?
    Mr. McBride. Every single retailer--thank you for the 
question, Congressman--every single retailer has a key set of 
products that are being targeted by the organized retail crime 
groups. In my case it is denim, it is jeans from American Eagle 
Outfitters. It is the highly lucrative, most expensive item 
that we sell on a regular basis.
    Other retailers have their own products that are being 
targeted. There were some photographs in the hearing room 
earlier of those products that are being recovered on a daily 
basis from law enforcement agencies at the local-State levels 
all over the country.
    Mr. Moore. Can you explain how certain policies led to an 
increase in ORC?
    Mr. McBride. In the post-COVID era--
    Mr. Moore. The ones you feel that.
    Mr. McBride. Yes. In the post-COVID era, the organized 
retail crime groups took the time to retool. They have used the 
internet encrypted apps to recruit known associates.
    They have used leverage techniques and social engineering 
to gain the upper hand on folks within the--armed citizens 
within the United States to do the dirty work at the lowest 
levels. They are sometimes minor. They are recruited and they 
are expendable to those organizations. They will roll up the 
next one to commit those crimes.
    They have a multilevel organized set of command structures 
that they use to boost, move, consolidate, and clean. Because 
they will remove tickets, they will remove sensor antitheft 
devices. They will throw away any GPS trackers that we insert 
inside this cargo to try to be able to get eyes on the 
movements. Then, they will exfiltrate that product out of the 
country.
    Mr. Moore. Are the jeans being lifted off the shelves? Or 
how is that happening when you say they just, they come into 
the stores themselves?
    Mr. McBride. Correct. Correct, Congressman. In the retail 
stores they are being boosted by what we call boosters; right? 
They come in and commit mass thefts. They may come in and 
overwhelm a staff in a store that may only have a few 
associates working. They use intimidation tactics to try to 
come back and revictimize the same locations over and over 
again because it is easier for them.
    We are also experiencing cargo theft. We had some of our 
shipments interdicted. We have, as my fellow witness stated, 
trucks that are broken into at truck stops, at red lights, in 
the mall parking lot they will be removed.
    Mr. Moore. Mr. Spear, I remember we were in the trucking 
business growing up. I was in New York one night. We were in 
the sleeper asleep and the truck started shaking.
    All of a sudden we go back and they have cut the lock, and 
they are stealing out the back of the truck. Now, it sounds 
like it is almost and it is a technological advantage for the 
criminal element; right?
    How do they reroute this? Is that something they are doing 
with the GPS system, or how are they sending these trucks?
    Do they look official and then they send them an email and 
say, hey, you are going here? How does that happen?
    Mr. Spear. Yes, hackers will get into the systems. Bill of 
ladings they can see, actually, the most expensive cargo.
    That is what is different here. It is not just a hit and 
run and we roll the dice, did we get something valuable? They 
know what is in the truck. It could be pharmaceuticals. It 
could be munitions. It could be a whole host of things that we 
don't want criminals to even know is in the truck.
    You can see that when you get into the system. They double 
broker. They work with brokers. They are a facade. They are 
going as a legitimate motor carrier. They are a front, they are 
a false front. They intervene in that process as the broker 
that's handling the freight from the shipper to the motor 
carrier. They pose as a false carrier, basically.
    Mr. Moore. Will they take it to a dock or a warehouse 
somewhere normally or?
    Mr. Spear. Yes, it will move in, generally, multiple 
States. These are products that often end up going overseas. 
Energy drinks are banned in multiple countries. Didn't know 
that, actually?
    Mr. Moore. It is like Coors beer used to be banned. In 
Smokey and the Bandit they would move them East in the State.
    Mr. Spear. Growing up in Wyoming I can understand.
    Mr. Moore. You know all about that, don't you?
    Mr. Spear. Yes, I do. Energy drinks they put them on the 
black market in these banned countries. It is a very 
sophisticated crime. It is not just the hit and run type of 
crime that we have been familiar with for the last 100 years. 
This is very crypto-driven criminal activity that is done 
overseas, well abroad.
    Mr. Moore. Yes. I was in New York that night, they stole 
shrimp from our reefer unit. The thing was, they didn't know 
what was in it. I am amazed now that they actually get the bill 
of lading and know what they are stealing.
    Mr. Bennett, one last question here. Do you think soft-on-
crime policies affect the safety of the employees and customers 
inside Target stores?
    Mr. Bennett. My experience is that we have seen violence in 
our stores. That crime in our communities is problematic.
    What is most important to us at Target is protecting our 
teams and our guests. We certainly focus on that from the 
strategy perspective.
    Mr. Moore. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. The Chair recognizes 
the gentleman from California, Mr. Kiley for his five minutes.
    Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In California, we have 
had probably the worst retail crime problem in the country. You 
go to our major cities, most of the things in basic convenience 
stores are behind lock and key.
    The cause of this is probably threefold: A lack of 
resources for police; some rogue district attorneys like George 
Gascon in L.A. who, fortunately, has been removed by the 
voters; and then very weak laws when it comes to punishing 
retail theft.
    Things got so bad--we have a witness from Target here 
today--that last year our Governor Gavin Newsom was visiting a 
Target when a thief absconded with a variety of merchandise. 
The Governor starts berating one of the Target employees, 
saying, ``Why aren't you stopping them?''
    Apparently the employee didn't recognize who she was 
talking to and she said, ``Well, we can't because of the 
Governor.''
    Despite this, the Governor himself opposed an initiative 
that I was part of last year to actually restore some real 
consequences for retail theft in California. It eventually 
became known as Prop. 36. The Governor led the opposition 
against it. The State's political class closed ranks in 
opposing Prop. 36.
    Yet, at the end of the day it passed with 68 percent of the 
vote. It passed in every single one of California's 58 
counties, even Governor Newsom's San Francisco. It got more 
votes than any other measure on the ballot, showing just how 
fed up the people of California are with the rampant 
lawlessness that is proving such a threat to business and to 
safety.
    We have a district attorney with us today. District 
Attorney Stephan, I know that you are a supporter or at least 
are grateful for the passage of Prop. 36. Can you just let us 
know how it has improved the ability of your office to actually 
hold criminals accountable and deter crime?
    Ms. Stephan. Thank you, Representative Kiley, for your help 
with this proposition. It has been a game changer for us.
    We have been able to prosecute. It targets, as you know, 
habitual offenders. It doesn't target the kid who makes a 
mistake, but we are targeting the habitual offenders.
    San Diego has already seen a 23 percent reduction in 
property crimes. It still doesn't get to that high level 
organized criminals that we need this legislation, the CORCA 
legislation, for. It certainly has given us the tools to act.
    Of course, something that I worked on for a whole year 
alongside you and other leaders.
    Mr. Kiley. That is right. The DA's Association really led 
the charge on that. Thank you for all your work on it and what 
you are doing now. We certainly need these measures at the 
Federal level to supplement those new consequences.
    Just out of curiosity, if you could have your wish as to 
any other changes that we could work for in California to make 
your office better able to protect the people of San Diego, 
anything come to mind?
    Ms. Stephan. Well, for now my wish is for the CORCA bill 
that the national DA's Association supports and I support. We 
don't know what we don't know. By having a database we will 
learn information, connect the dots, and be able to go after 
organized crime. There is really no other way to do it.
    Mr. Kiley. Right. Well, thanks very much. We have made 
crime illegal again, as say now in California, with this 
initiative. We still have a long way to go. We have seen a real 
improvement in no small part because of dedicated prosecutors 
like yourself.
    Thanks very much. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. Will you yield to Mr. Knott?
    Mr. Kiley. I would be happy to, yes.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you, Mr. Kiley. I want to be sure we are 
clarifying something here.
    There is a lot of talk about names, organizations, and so 
forth. In my experience as a prosecutor you have a local 
incident, like a drug seizure. Then, you have repeated local 
incidents, the same seizure, and the same person. There is a 
search warrant for a device or a car and international contacts 
are discovered.
    You go up the chain, and you realize this is part of a much 
larger operation. It is not every stop. It is not every 
seizure. When you uncover an international organization with a 
more sophisticated wheel, you have a forum in Federal law 
enforcement to hand that case over to.
    That is where I received the cases. We are talking about 
whether it is drugs, whether it is firearms, whether it is 
human trafficking, there is a forum when those incidents occur.
    There is not a forum for retail theft. The retail theft is 
occurring over, and over, and over with impunity. I just wanted 
to clarify that. Is that consistent with what you have 
experienced, Madam DA?
    Ms. Stephan. That is absolutely the right description. We 
have that. We have a forum for fentanyl where we handle some 
cases, the Feds handle international cases. We have it for 
scams. We have it for gang violence.
    Mr. Knott. Yes.
    Ms. Stephan. We do not have it for something that is 
ripping off the places that are the heartbeat of America.
    Mr. Knott. Right.
    Ms. Stephan. Small businesses and large businesses.
    Mr. Knott. That is right. It is literally--one more point, 
Mr. Chair--it is literally I would get a--
    Mr. Biggs. Quickly. Quickly.
    Mr. Knott. --notebook of a Case Summary that said this 
started local and now it is clearly international. Then, I 
would work with local law enforcement to prosecute that case. 
You can't do that with retail theft. We need to fix that.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Knott. Those are great points. I 
appreciate that. I recognize myself for, for five minutes.
    This kind of reminds me of the pre-1972ish idea in America 
that there was no such thing as the Mafia. If you remember 
that. Hard to believe that we went into the Seventies, the 
movie The Godfather was required to remove the term Cosa Nostra 
or Mafia from it by Joe Colombo, who was the head of New York 
crime families, one of the five families.
    This reminds me of that because no one know who the kingpin 
is. We know that it involves international manipulation. We 
know and suspect that, in my opinion, you also have South of 
the border cartel activity as well directing this. Because I 
live in Arizona and we see evidence of this.
    This is a big thing that is happening. It is spreading and 
it is growing. Even though I am certain that South of the 
border cartels are involved, I am also just as certain that 
there are other international kingpins that we have got to 
reach out that are in China, Asia, Russia, Russia, and Europe.
    I just want to report that not too many months ago I took a 
tour of my local Walmart, big super Walmart place. I have been 
to Target, too, but I didn't take the tour there. I just, I 
have been to Target, too, so.
    What do we find is they said, ``let us show you the aisle 
from which we have had to take really decisive action because 
it is the aisle from which most of our stuff was getting ripped 
off. It is the Lego aisle.'' Everything is--that is hard to 
believe. Nonetheless, they were stealing it.
    They were doing exactly what you are saying, they are 
ripping off a whole--like what you were describing with jeans--
somebody is coming in, they are boosting a whole bunch, getting 
it out of there. Overwhelming the staff and moving it on some 
marketplace, extraneous marketplace.
    There is a definite need to resolve some of this issue.
    I am going to ask you a question in a second, Mr. Spear. I 
want to say that one of the things that has to happen at the 
Federal level besides this national law that you are looking 
for, which is CORCA, is you are going to have--the Feds have 
got to do Southbound operations on the border.
    We do Northbound operations endlessly. We send people back. 
That is why you are seeing the slowdown. We don't do Southbound 
operations very often. That dearth, that void allows truckloads 
of various items to go South of the border without ever being 
detected because we just don't have the personnel, nor the 
strategy to interdict going South. Southbound operations it is 
going to have to step up if we are going to really close this 
thing down.
    Mr. Spear, I wanted to ask you a question with regard to 
your testimony on page 10 of your testimony. I am trying to 
figure out your tables, Tables 8 and 9. I want you to explain 
those to us.
    Then, I also want you to talk about the large trucking 
companies versus the smaller or 10 units and below trucking 
companies because I am wondering is there a distinction.
    Are the big companies sharing the ripoffs as much as the 
smaller companies are?
    Mr. Spear. Yes. If you look at page 10 of the written 
testimony, Tables 8 and 9. Table 8 is centered on motor 
carriers. These are actual trucking companies that are, are 
moving the product. These are the States where we are 
witnessing the most activity year over year.
    As you can see, there is a lot of States in here that are 
ports. We also have several that are inside the U.S. that also 
have access to riverways like Tennessee.
    It is the type of cargo. It is usually occurring in larger 
cities, areas where there are ports, where there are ways that 
you can move very quickly. That is the motor carrier chart.
    Then, if you go into Table 9, that is the logistics service 
provider chart. This is the strategic theft that I was speaking 
about. This is the brokers, the third-party folks that handle, 
intervene, that handle the shipments on behalf of the shipper, 
the motor carrier. They are the brokers.
    This is where the electronic element comes in, masking as a 
motor carrier or a false business. Obtains the cargo and is 
able to move it from State-to-State, even abroad. This is where 
we have seen the 1,500 percent surge since 2021. This is the 
escalating type of crime that is not just on the Southern 
border, it is around the world.
    The access through a laptop is the catalyst for doing that. 
If you look at these States, you are also seeing a pretty 
similar pattern to what you see for motor carriers. This is 
where we really see the surge of cargo theft.
    Mr. Biggs. Is there any distinction between large trucking 
companies, particularly in the logistics portion, in the 
hijacking the technology?
    Mr. Spear. Yes. Some of our largest members have 
experienced it in various ways. They have more interaction with 
other modes with rail, for instance, who are listed in the 90-
plus supply chain sponsors supporting CORCA. They have a lot of 
interaction, intermodal interaction with other modes as well.
    There is a lot of connectivity and they are going to have a 
lot more robust systems to see what is happening and track it. 
They also have a lot more technology in the trucks, as well as 
the trailers, to track that cargo.
    To get down to 10 trucks or less operations, they are not 
going to have the wherewithal to combat this, let alone the 
ability to ``who do I call?'' Do I call it where the cargo 
originated, where it is headed, or where the crime occurred? 
Who do I call beyond State and local law enforcement?
    There is no centerpiece to coordinate that. There is no 
sharing and there is no understanding. That is the missing 
piece of the puzzle that I think will bring in more capability 
for the 10 trucks or less businesses.
    We don't want to see those folks go under. They are very 
important to local communities. They are doing the hard work 
day-to-day. They are just as important as the largest members 
of ATA.
    Obviously, that is a direct interaction, too, with truck 
drivers. We really do care about their safety as well.
    Being able to train up and have that capability, we want 
that to happen across all members, large and small. Giving them 
that capability would be a huge step up. We believe CORCA does 
that.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I appreciate each Member of our 
panel, and your testimony, and your statement that is written 
and incorporated into the record. We appreciate it.
    This is an important topic to us. As I spoke to all of you 
beforehand, this is necessary before you can even begin to move 
a markup bill.
    We have been called to vote. I am going to yield about 30 
seconds max to my friend from North Carolina who is just 
itching to ask another question, so.
    Mr. Knott. Mr. Spear, just briefly, is there anything we 
can do besides the criminal enforcement to assist in protecting 
the marketplace from these sophisticated scams?
    Mr. Spear. Yes. The enhanced enforcement, Federal, State, 
local, and working with us. We have to invest in this. We have 
got to train our employees just as much. That is all-important. 
It is multiple pieces at the same time. What is missing is the 
Federal.
    The enforcement piece is important. I think better 
information sharing is really, really critical.
    We talked about that. Deputy District Attorney talked about 
that in terms of other States and being able to see the 
broader, bigger picture. That is where you are going to see 
some of the bigger names and maybe who is behind this.
    Mr. Knott. Yes.
    Mr. Spear. Like I said, a lot of these folks want to stay 
low on the radar. They don't want to be tracked.
    Mr. Knott. The best criminals are the hardest to catch.
    Mr. Spear. That is exactly right. You are seeing them grow 
exponentially.
    We think the information, the reporting, and the ability to 
harbor that information is going to really, really help 
Federal, State, local, as well as our industry understand the 
bigger problem, connect the dots faster.
    Again, this is all about speed.
    Mr. Knott. Yes.
    Mr. Spear. It is being able to act quickly and understand 
that. You get this extra piece of the puzzle in there; we will 
be in a better place to do that.
    Mr. Knott. Thank you so much.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Knott. Thank you, Members of the 
panel. Everyone will have five days to ask additional questions 
or submit statements for the record.
    With that, we are adjourned. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 10:32 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance can
be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent 
.aspx?EventID=118765.

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