    [House Hearing, 119 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                      PROTECTING CONSUMERS AND BUSINESSES:
                       CONFRONTING ORGANIZED RETAIL CRIME

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
                             GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                         U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION
                                   __________

                          WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2025
                                   __________

                               Serial No. 119-46
                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

                   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                   Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
                                    ______

                      U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    62-401                    WASHINGTON : 2026

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                            JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

    DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking
    ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                    Member
    TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York
    THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California
    THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
    CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
    SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin            Georgia
    BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California
    LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California
    JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
    TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California
    BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
    KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
    HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia
    LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina
    WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont
    RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
    GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
    BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
    MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York
    ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
    DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
    BRANDON GILL, Texas
    MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington

                                     ------

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
                            GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                           ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Chair

    TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               LUCY McBATH, Georgia, Ranking
    TROY NEHLS, Texas                      Member
    BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
    KEVIN KILEY, California              DAN GOLDMAN, New York
    LAUREL LEE, Florida                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
    BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           ERIC SWALWELL, California

                   CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
                    ARTHUR EWENCZYK, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                          Wednesday, December 17, 2025

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    The Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and
      Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona......     1
    The Honorable Steve Cohen, a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime
      and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Tennessee     3
    The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on
      the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     4

                                   WITNESSES

    Shane Bennett, Principal of Cyber Defense--Theft, Fraud & Abuse,
      Target
      Oral Testimony.................................................     8
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    10
    The Hon. Summer Stephan, District Attorney, San Diego County,
      California
      Oral Testimony.................................................    16
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    18
    Chris Spear, President and Chief Executive Officer, American
      Trucking Association
      Oral Testimony.................................................    26
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    28
    Scott McBride, Chief Global Asset Protection Officer & CSO,
      American Eagle Outfitters Inc.
      Oral Testimony.................................................    42
      Prepared Testimony.............................................    44

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    All materials submitted by the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal
      Government Surveillance, for the record........................    49

    A statement from the International Council of Shopping Centers
      (ICSC), Dec. 17, 2025, submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin,
      Ranking Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State
      of Maryland, for the record
    A letter to the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee
      on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of
      Arizona, and the Honorable Lucy McBath, Ranking Member of the
      Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from
      the State of Georgia, from the National Association of
      Convenience Stores (NACS), Dec. 17, 2025, submitted by the
      Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and
      Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona, for
      the record

                                    APPENDIX

    Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the
      Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from
      the State of Arizona, for the record
        A statement from the Intermodal Association of North America
            (IANA), Dec. 17, 2025
        A statement from The Home Depot, Dec. 17, 2025
        An article entitled, ``Walmart store closings 2024: See the
            full list of all the stores that closed this year,'' Jan.
            21, 2025, NJ.com
    A statement from the National Retail Federation, Dec. 17, 2025,
      submitted by the Honorable Troy Nehls, a Member of the
      Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from
      the State of Texas, for the record

                      PROTECTING CONSUMERS AND BUSINESSES:
                       CONFRONTING ORGANIZED RETAIL CRIME

                                  ----------

                          Wednesday, December 17, 2025

                            House of Representatives

                  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government
                                  Surveillance

                           Committee on the Judiciary

                                 Washington, DC

        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:05 a.m., in
    Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Andy Biggs
    [Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
        Members present: Representatives Biggs, Tiffany, Nehls,
    Moore, Kiley, Lee, Knott, Issa, Cohen, and Raskin.
        Mr. Biggs. The Committee, Subcommittee on Crime and
    Government Surveillance, is called to order.
        Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
    recess at any time. Without objection, Mr. Correa will be
    permitted to participate in today's hearing for the purpose of
    questioning witnesses. He will receive five minutes for that
    purpose.
        I thank our Democratic colleagues for working with us to
    get started at 9:00 this morning.
        I now recognize the gentlewoman from Florida to lead us in
    the Pledge of Allegiance. Ms. Lee.
        All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
    of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
    Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
    all.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I now recognize myself for an opening
    statement.
        I am pleased to be here at the Subcommittee hearing this
    morning. The business before us today is the hearing entitled
    ``Protecting Consumers and Businesses Confronting Organized
    Retail Crime.''
        Organized retail crime is a growing threat to our retailers
    and their employers, our law enforcement, and our communities.
    The crisis is not going away; in fact, it is on the rise. In
    fact, we held a hearing on this very topic a little more than
    two years ago. Today we will have the opportunity to see how
    the crisis has evolved.
        The rise in organized retail crime and cargo theft is
    causing businesses to close and is endangering the public,
    where it goes beyond simple shoplifting. Organized theft groups
    strategically steal with the specific intent to resell for
    profit.
        Let's look at a recent example that occurred just a few
    miles from where we sat today.
        In March 2025, authorities in Virginia and Maryland
    arrested two adults and a teenager responsible for allegedly
    stealing over $190,000 in a series of organized retail
    robberies, including $50,000 taken in Fairfax County.
        The suspects first stole perfume. When Ultra secured it
    behind glass, they allegedly began smashing the cases with a
    hammer to access the products.
        For larger OTG, ORC is another business in a portfolio that
    may also include narcotics distribution, human trafficking, and
    other illicit activities. In the United States in 2023, Walmart
    lost $6.5 billion in revenue due to theft and was forced to
    close 11 stores in 2024 due to the severity of theft across the
    country.
        Victims are not only big box stores. Eight in ten retailers
    have said the violence and aggression associated with ORC
    incidents increased in the past year. Additionally, ORC groups
    have increasingly engaged in cargo theft, targeting the
    trucking and railroad industries as lucrative new sources of
    stolen goods.
        According to the American Trucking Associations, that is
    ATA, cargo theft has cost the U.S. trucking industry
    approximately $7 billion per year.
        Rogue prosecutors and soft-on-crime policies in some
    jurisdictions are fueling a rise in ORC. Criminals emboldened
    by soft-on-crime prosecutions and progressive bail reform laws
    know that they can avoid prosecution and incarceration if they
    stay below the felony threshold. Thus, criminals intentionally
    steal products valued just below the dollar amount required for
    the crime to become a felony, knowing that those crimes are not
    prosecuted.
        Furthermore, with some states passing irresponsible
    progressive bail reform laws, these criminals know that they
    will be immediately released. Once they are released, they go
    on to commit similar or more serious crimes without facing any
    consequences.
        It is time we fight back. Organized retail crime must be
    stopped, criminals must be penalized, and shoppers and retail
    employees must not live in fear. I want to give some key
    statistics and impacts.
        Cargo theft costs the trucking industry $18 million per
    day. That is about $7 billion annually.
        Retail theft is estimated at $45 billion in 2024, and is
    projected to exceed $53 billion by 2027. nationwide job losses
    are attributed to ORC, more than $650,000.
        Merchandise thefts, shoplifting, are up 19 percent in the
    past year, on top of a 24 percent increase in 2022 and 2023.
        External shoplifting incidents are up 18 percent; overall
    merchandise theft up 12 percent.
        Fifty-one percent of retailers report thieves are more
    aggressive in that past year, after a 73 reported increase in
    the prior year.
        Seventy percent of retailers saw increases in phone scams;
    55 percent in digital e-commerce fraud.
        Fifty percent of cargo supply chain theft tied to ORC.
        Sixty-six percent of retailers report transnational ORC
    involvement since 2024.
        As someone who lives in Arizona, I can tell you
    transnational theft is a big issue.
        I look forward to hearing from our top-flight list of
    witnesses today, our panel of witnesses today. I am grateful
    for you being here. Grateful to you and the audience who are
    here, and grateful to each Member of the Committee who is here,
    and our staff as well.
        With that, I yield back on my opening statement. Now, I
    recognize my friend from Tennessee, Mr. Cohen, for his opening
    statement.
        Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am sitting in for Ms.
    Lucy McBath who is a good friend and an outstanding Member from
    Atlanta, Georgia. She is, unfortunately, or fortunately she is
    there to help her husband through surgery, and she asked me to
    come in. I am not necessarily known for great activity at 9:00
    in the morning, but Ms. McBath is not here.
        Thank you. I am honored to be here with Mr. Nehls, a hawk
    on law enforcement against retail crime. Thank you.
        Organized retail crime is a very real problem and occurs in
    every corner of our country. When I was young--and I don't
    think it necessarily has anything to do with religion--but my
    grandmother told me to buy wholesale. We are concerned about
    wholesale crime, too. It is out there.
        I discussed our situation with Steve Mulroy, who is our
    Shelby County District Attorney. I hope he has met you,
    Stephan. He is District Attorney of Shelby County.
        We shared examples of recent cases and how State lines
    affect law enforcement. Arkansas, we are cornered, Southwest
    corner of Tennessee. To the West is Arkansas, and to the South
    is Mississippi. The other two corners or our city or county
    touch Tennessee.
        We are a major transportation and logistics stop, and we
    have related cargo and freight theft. One of our Senators,
    Marsha Blackburn, is introducing a bill with Senator Amy
    Klobuchar called the Cargo Security Innovation Act. I intend to
    support that with her, because that will be a way to go after
    the theft that we have had on the railroads, which is a serious
    problem when they take cargo, threaten the trains, and take the
    cargo out.
        They also hit trucks. That is important. This all threatens
    the safety of the public, employees of the myriad companies
    that are targeted, and drives up costs for consumers. At a time
    when everyone is feeling the affordability crunch, for many the
    American dream is getting pushed further away; it is being
    stolen from them.
        We don't need to talk about hoaxes or anecdotes, as I am
    sure you, all of us here, have believable stories to share. We
    need to talk about solutions, which we will do today.
        It is always best to start with data. That is how we ensure
    to identify and attack our problems with a solution that works.
    This is one of the difficult parts of the conversation in that
    it is incomplete and bogged down by different definitions and
    ways of accounting.
        We know we have a problem, but its extent and implications
    are somewhat unclear. It touches on a fundamental principle of
    American Government: Federalism. I imagine District Attorney
    Stephan will discuss that.
        We feel this acutely in Memphis because of our location.
        The President created the Crime in Memphis Task Force
    designed to surge Federal law enforcement resources in Memphis
    and improve coordination across agencies. I support the
    additional FBI, DEA, and AFT agents that come into Memphis. We
    already had them in Memphis. They are finding guns, illegal
    guns, and they are finding drugs and finding other crimes that
    are against Federal law.
        He also put the National Guard in. He put a lot of ICE
    agents in. Memphis is not an immigration center of crimes. Most
    of the people that are there that are immigrants, even if they
    did come into the country illegally, most of them are working
    legally doing a lot of important work in Memphis: Construction
    industry and the tourism industry. They are necessary and
    needed.
        If we build that 990-person ballroom, we need waiters.
    Thinking they will all be Salvadoran. We need to be concerned
    about that.
        The National Guard faces this. They are present, and patrol
    is important in law enforcement. They are not doing much in the
    way of crime fighting. That is, of course, intended, I think.
        It somewhat changed the relation between Federal, State,
    and local law enforcement. The order is focused on street and
    violent crime. Memphis hasn't had too much, and it has gone
    down. It went down before the Federal Task Force came in, but
    it has gone down a little bit more.
        We don't know exactly what street crime is, but we know
    when we say we are going to go in with ICE and take out the
    people that committed the most serious offenses, the worst of
    the worst, mention crime, homicide, we mention rape, and we
    mention pedophiles. We know who those people are.
        They are arresting people simply for the offense of being
    in the country illegally. It is not right. It not necessarily
    something which should cause deportation when they are not
    committing crimes and they are contributing to the economy.
    That is a concern we have.
        The U.S. Marshals are in charge of the situation in
    Memphis. We understand that, and they are doing a good job.
        All of this is to say we are developing policies to address
    organized retail crime. It must be well-designed with thoughts
    of resources, allocation, roles, and responsibilities. Federal
    assistance is good, but especially an interstate problem.
    Local, strictly local problems we need to be concerned about
    the separation of powers.
        That is a question I hope we will get into and understand
    there is a place for Federal law enforcement, and a place for
    the State and the local law enforcement.
        With that, I yield back my time.
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize the
    Ranking Member of the Full Committee, Mr. Raskin, for his
    opening statement.
        Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks to all
    the witnesses for coming to be with us today.
        In recent years, retailers have emphasized that organized
    retail crime has become a significant threat, both to public
    safety and the retail economy, threatening the viability of
    businesses like cargo brokers, shippers, big box stores, online
    marketplaces, as well as the physical safety of people who work
    at these different businesses.
        Although we lack one clear definition of organized retail
    crime, we know that the essential problem is now continuing
    criminal enterprises that operate in a coordinated way to
    commit large-scale theft of merchandise for resale, or to
    defraud retailers and convert the proceeds into cash or crypto
    currency.
        This is not petty shoplifting by middle school students. It
    is a multibillion-dollar industry that evolves and adapts
    almost daily to the latest technological trends, security
    improvements, and modified business operations. Social media
    and local news reports are filled with videos of smash-and-
    grabs and mobs raiding cargo containers. These accounts are
    shocking but they are the tip of the iceberg.
        Criminal networks recruit people to steal or boost
    specified merchandise from retailers, sometimes paying the
    boosters' travel expenses, then fence these stolen goods
    online, shipping them across State and sometimes national
    borders, and arranging for resale of the merchandise to other
    stores, or even returning them to the retailer that they had
    stolen from in the first place.
        Others steal hundreds of gift cards from retailers. They
    then peel off the label to obtain the unique code on each card
    before doctoring them up to look new, returning them back to
    the store shelves, and using customized software to track the
    card numbers online. When unsuspecting customers eventually
    purchase the cards and load them with value, $50 or $100, for a
    nephew's holiday gift or $500 for a wedding present, the
    thieves can drain all the money off the cards for themselves
    remotely in this diabolically clever scam.
        The customer only finds out what happened if their
    disappointed nephew or the newlyweds complain about getting a
    gift card that has no value on it.
        It is increasingly clear that these kinds of operations at
    this scale are coordinated and enabled by the most up-to-date
    technology and communication tools; very hard to stop.
        The State and local law enforcement are our first line of
    defense against organized retail crime, but State and local
    officials have limited resources and authorities to investigate
    and prosecute crimes across State lines and even international
    borders.
        In recent years, Federal agencies have taken some interest
    in confronting this problem. The Federal prosecutors tend to
    focus their own limited resources on the largest and most
    brazen schemes, especially those involving theft of large
    amounts of cargo or thefts involving losses in tens of
    thousands of dollars.
        Many organized retail theft schemes are too complex for
    State prosecutors and too modest for Federal prosecutors,
    creating a growing enforcement gap.
        As this Committee grapples with the problem I see two basic
    challenges: First, we need better data. Because retailers,
    retail organizations, and law enforcement all track organized
    retail crime using different definitions and different methods,
    we have got a hard time canvassing the real scope and
    dimensions of the problem or formulating an effective targeted
    response.
        In some cases, retailers are targeted by the gangs for
    weeks or even months before it becomes clear that the crime is
    even taking place. If we are going to tackle this problem we
    need standardized national data, utilizing a consistent, and
    widely accepted definition of organized retail crime. We cannot
    dismantle these criminal networks until we have a real
    understanding of how they operate and how much damage they are
    causing.
        Second, we need to see better coordination between Federal
    law enforcement agencies and their State and local
    counterparts. A national task force could be very useful in
    finding the broader patterns in local incidents and conducting
    complex investigations across State lines. I would hope any
    such task force would be nimble enough to follow organized
    retail crime as their methods evolve.
        In 2022, Congress passed the Informed Consumers Act to
    bring more transparency to online transactions on certain
    platforms. Perpetrators of organized retail crime took note and
    moved their operations to smaller platforms not covered by the
    law.
        A nationwide task force would help us make sure our laws
    are being kept up with criminals and to ensure law enforcement
    at all levels is empowered to counter organized retail crime.
        I am glad that we have a very strong panel here today to
    share their expert knowledge and experience, and to discuss
    solutions that will better protect employees, consumers, and
    communities across the country.
        I thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back.
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. Without objection,
    all other opening statements will be included in the record.
        We will now introduce today's witnesses. I recognize the
    gentleman from California, Mr. Issa, for the purpose of
    introducing Hon. Summer Stephan, without objection.
        Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        This is truly a great pleasure. There is not enough you can
    say about Summer's tenure as District Attorney. She came into
    an organization that needed help. She rebuilt it and then
    fought off those time and time again who tried to undercut her
    ability to prosecute and keep San Diego a city that, in fact,
    has recent one of the safest large cities in America.
        Particularly, she fought for Prop. 36. For those who don't
    know Prop. 36 in California, we had created a situation at the
    State level in which there was no crime for shoplifting.
    Effectively, the $900 rule couldn't even be implemented because
    you couldn't find out how much they were leaving with.
        If they left with a case of high-end liquor, you couldn't
    stop them finding out if there was over $900 of high-end
    liquor. At the end of the day they didn't just steal $900 for
    10-15 times a day, they in fact may have been stealing more but
    with impunity.
        As many of the others in their opening statements
    mentioned, there was a gap between the Federal and the State.
    Summer worked very hard with U.S. attorneys of both parties to
    try to narrow that gap and begin some prosecution.
        She particularly, unlike many district attorneys, was
    willing to go to the field. Whether it is dealing with the
    retailers, or going into homeless encampments to see those
    goods being dumped in massive amounts after being stolen, she
    has been there. Her advocacy made a difference in the outcome
    of Prop. 36.
        Since the time of its input, its passage, she has
    prosecuted more than 2,000 repeat felons, created a situation
    in which San Diego is once again a place where retailers can
    operate and work with the Federal Government on organized crime
    that ultimately is the back end of much of that theft.
        I am thrilled to see my longtime friend and our ally in San
    Diego and welcome her. I yield back.
        Mr. Biggs. Yes. At this moment I will recognize the Ranking
    Member Mr. Raskin for a U.C. request.
        Mr. Raskin. Thank you kindly, Mr. Chair. I ask U.C. to
    enter a statement for the record, dated today, December 17,
    2025, from ICSC, representing 50,000 North American marketplace
    professionals, including owners and developers of retail
    centers, as well as retail tenants, investors, and developers.
        Mr. Biggs. Without objection. I will now introduce the rest
    of the witnesses.
        Mr. Scott McBride is the Chief Global Asset Protection
    Officer of American Eagle Outfitters, a lifestyle brand and
    retailer with locations worldwide. In his role, Mr. McBride is
    responsible for the comprehensive protection of the company's
    assets across five continents.
        Mr. Chris Spear is the President and Chief Executive
    Officer of the American Trucking Association, an organization
    made up of trucking companies. He also serves on the Board of
    Directors for the American Transportation Research Institute
    and the Trucking Cares Foundation.
        Mr. Shane Bennett is the Principal of Theft, Fraud, and
    Abuse at Target. He previously was the Director of Assets
    Protection and Field Investigations for Target where he led
    strategy and personnel who addressed organized retail crime.
        We welcome our witnesses. Thank you for appearing today.
        Will you each stand so we can swear you in. Please raise
    your right hands.
        Do each of you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury
    that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to
    the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help
    you God?
        [Affirmative response.]
        Mr. Biggs. Let the record reflect the witnesses have
    answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. Thank you.
        I want you to know that your written testimony will be
    entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we are
    asking you to summarize your testimony in five minutes. If you
    get close you will hear this at first. Then, if you get really
    long you will hear a whack with the gavel to remind you that
    time has expired.
        I will remind; I will try to remind you so you can turn on
    your microphone when you speak.
        We will now recognize Mr. Bennett for his five-minute
    opening statement.

                       STATEMENT OF SHANE BENNETT

        Mr. Bennett. Chair Biggs, Ranking Member Cohen, and the
    esteemed Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the
    opportunity to address the Committee today on a very pressing
    issue.
        My name is Shane Bennett, and I have nearly 40 years of
    experience in assets protection and fraud prevention.
    Currently, I lead retail crime strategy for Target
    Corporation's Fraud and Abuse Team, focused on large-scale
    organized retail crime, or ORC.
        Target is a great American company with more than 400,000
    team members and 2,000 stores, all here in the U.S.
        Over my career I have worked in stores, in the field as an
    ORC investigation, and in my current role in fraud and abuse. I
    have witnessed first-hand how dangerous and highly coordinated
    ORC has become and the impact it has had on both consumers and
    businesses.
        This isn't about casual shoplifters. Organized retail crime
    is far more advanced. No single State or retailer can see the
    full picture. Retail crime enterprises deliberately operate
    across jurisdictions to evade detection and prosecution. This
    makes it very difficult for State and local agencies to
    investigate their activities without the help of Federal
    partners.
        The Combating Organized Retail Crime Act, or CORCA, would
    help bridge that gap.
        The impact on consumers, your constituents, is significant.
    These criminal enterprises contribute to lower product
    availability on shelves, increased safety risks for both our
    team members and guests, and disrupt supply chains, and
    ultimately fuels widespread financial fraud which funds
    criminal activities impacting our communities.
        More recently, gift card scams have surged. I am certain
    that many of your constituents have been or know a victim. The
    Department of Homeland Security has estimated more than $1
    billion in fraud losses over the past two years. A 2022 AARP
    study found that one out of every three Americans have either
    experienced gift card fraud themselves or know someone who has.
        This issue becomes even more urgent during the holiday
    season when gift card purchases spike, as people turn to them
    as easy last-minute gifts. Although there are several fraud
    vectors involving gift cards targeting consumers and
    businesses, one example is gift card tampering.
        Criminals steal inactive gift cards off retail shelves,
    tamper with the card by copying the activation data, then
    reseal them before putting them back on store shelves. Once an
    unsuspecting shopper loads money onto that card at checkout,
    fraudsters use sophisticated methods to detect the balance and
    drain the funds. Ultimately, profits funding criminal
    organizations.
        At Target we have built a multilayered prevention model to
    combat this fraud. This includes real-time analytics, increased
    training and education for our team members, and an industry-
    leading innovation like our decoupled gift card technology.
    This helps prevent fraud activation and protects our guests and
    your constituents from being targeted by criminals.
        Retailers cannot combat gift card fraud alone. We work
    closely with partners through the Gift Card Fraud Prevention
    Alliance educating consumers, sharing data, and identifying
    interstate trends. Additionally, our partnerships with Federal
    agencies are essential.
        For example, Target and industry partners coordinate with
    Federal law enforcement through Project Red Hook, an initiative
    with Homeland Security investigations. This collaboration
    traces elicit financial flows, identifies transnational fraud
    networks, and disrupts organized retail crime operations that
    span multiple States.
        In the past two years there have been 232 arrests, with
    asset seizures totaling approximately $8 million. This
    partnership shows that we can dismantle criminal groups. The
    Combating Organized Retail Crime Act would strengthen and
    expand the model by providing tools needed to disrupt the
    sophisticated criminal networks and protect consumers.
        Target, along with the entire retail community strongly
    supporting CORCA, urges Congress to pass this bipartisan
    legislation quickly.
        Thank you for your leadership on this issue. I look forward
    to your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Shane Bennett follows:]

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        Mr. Biggs. Thank you. We appreciate your testimony. Now, I
    recognize District Attorney Stephan for her five-minute opening
    statement.

                  STATEMENT OF THE HON. SUMMER STEPHAN

        Ms. Stephan. Thank you, Chair Biggs, Ranking Member Cohen,
    Ranking Member Raskin, and the Members of the Subcommittee for
    this opportunity to speak before you.
        I am before you as a 35-year prosecutor. For the record,
    that
    is longer than I have been alive not a prosecutor. I rose
    through
    the ranks to become the elected District Attorney for San Diego
    County.
        For perspective, San Diego County is the fifth largest
    county in the United States. I have the honor of serving 3.3
    million people that call San Diego home. I am also the Chair of
    the National District Attorney's Association, one of the oldest
    prosecutor associations in the Nation.
        A few years ago, we saw that organized retail theft was not
    what it used to be, that it was highly organized and highly
    sophisticated. To keep up with it, we needed to get organized.
    I formed within my office an Organized Retail Theft Task Force
    and worked with our police departments on combating this crime.
        With that we have had great success. I believe that we may
    be the office that has prosecuted more organized retail theft.
    In three years, we brought 336 defendants who were responsible
    for organized-retail theft to justice, with losses to stores of
    $3,208,000.
        This is just the tip of the iceberg. One of the reasons
    that I am so grateful for the work of this Committee is because
    despite all the resources where I put this task force, and the
    number of people we have prosecuted, we have not been able to
    get past the booster level--that is the people who are
    conducting the theft. Then, in many cases where we were able to
    build through search warrants, cell phone evidence, capturing
    camera evidence, we were able to go up the chain to the fence
    level.
        We recognized very quickly that we did not get through as a
    county prosecutor to the level of the organized criminals that
    are pulling the strings and that area responsible for reselling
    the products or shipping them overseas to never be found again.
        I am going to give you an example of a case that we did
    recently that I think really illustrates this point.
        We had a very sophisticated heist at a chain jewelry store.
    They targeted Rolex watches. Within a couple of days, as we
    were putting the case together, we were able to make some
    arrests and discovered that the Rolex watches were all already
    shipped overseas.
        What really made me more passionate about the fact that
    this needs to be a whole-nation effort is because we discovered
    that the same crew was also responsible for the same type of
    thing in the State of Washington. We had no alert system or a
    data bank of Federal, State, and locals to address and to get
    an alert that they might be coming for us because we have a
    very fancy store just like the one in Washington.
        That is just one example. We have had many cases,
    especially in the crews that target commercial and home
    burglaries that we have discovered have committed a chain of
    those across the United States.
        When we got them, we were able to get the group, but we
    were not able to recover the product nor to get up to the
    chain, the international and national chain that is involved.
        I also want to tell you that another thing about being on
    the ground is that this is such a victim-centered crime. When
    we prosecuted the Ultra store $700,000 heist, looking in the
    eyes of those young workers that expected to have a safe place
    to work and found out that they couldn't even look at the
    thieves because they would look at them, like, ``What are you
    looking at? You can't do anything about it.''
        That really made it clear that we need a national data bank
    so that we can really go after this sophisticated crime, these
    criminals, and protect our employees and our community.
        Thank you very much for this opportunity.
        [The prepared statement of the Hon. Summer Stephan
    follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thank you. Now, we recognize Mr.
    Spear for his five minutes of testimony.

                        STATEMENT OF CHRIS SPEAR

        Mr. Spear. Chair Biggs, Congressman Cohen, and the
    Subcommittee Members, thank you for the opportunity to testify
    about the rapid rise in cargo theft and the threat that it
    poses to our economy as well as our national security.
        For over 90 years the American Trucking Associations has
    represented an industry that now employs 8.4 million of the
    hardest working men and women in the country. Today these
    Americans are on the front lines of an escalating crisis, and
    they need backup from Congress.
        Brazen thieves are robbing our industry to the tune of $18
    million a day. Motor carriers not only have to replace stolen
    products, but shoulder higher insurance premiums and invest in
    new security measures. These added expenses put jobs and
    businesses at risk. Those elevated costs for fleets are felt by
    consumers at the store.
        Plainly, there is a direct connection to rampant cargo
    theft and what Americans are paying at grocery stores. Across
    the supply chain cargo theft is estimated to cost up to $35
    billion annually. This is money that belongs in consumers'
    wallets, not criminals' pockets.
        There are two categories of cargo theft: Straight theft and
    strategic theft.
        Straight theft has been around since trucks have been on a
    road a century ago. It involves the physical theft of cargo
    from a distribution center or the back of a truck. Crews will
    stop tractor trailers and strike when they are stopped at a
    rest area or even a traffic light, putting truck drivers and
    other essential supply chain workers directly in harm's way.
        In Arizona police recently arrested several individuals who
    had stolen six figures worth of energy drinks. They were later
    linked to a $3 million heist of electronics.
        In Georgia four men were recently convicted for multiple
    thefts of electronics, copper, and apparel, totaling more than
    $1.7 million across the entire Southeast.
        These incidents are happening in every State and in every
    district.
        In contrast, strategic theft involved the use of advanced
    cyber tactics to trick shippers, brokers, and carriers to
    divert and hand over their loads. This hi-tech form of cargo
    theft has become a digital renaissance for thieves, surging
    1,500 percent since 2021.
        Over 90 percent of fleets are small businesses operating 10
    trucks or fewer, but they are forced to compete in an arms race
    trying to match the formidable technological capabilities of
    sophisticated criminals who are often based overseas.
        Transnational aspects of cargo theft also make it a
    national security issue. Proceeds from stolen goods finance
    other criminal activities, including drug trafficking,
    organized crime, and even potentially terrorism. In just one
    example, shipments of high-end refrigerators were stolen from
    one of our Memphis, Tennessee, members in St. Louis. The local
    police filed a report but declined to investigate further.
        Several months later the ATF stumbled across the
    refrigerators when they raided a warehouse. They were being
    stuffed with U.S. drug profits before being sent back across
    the Southern border.
        What the local police dismissed as a simple insurance
    matter turned out to be a pivotal piece of a Mexican cartel's
    operation.
        Trucking is interstate by nature, which means the thieves
    targeting the cargo we haul are interstate as well. The State
    and local law enforcement often lack the resources and the
    jurisdiction to adequately investigate cross-border crimes.
    This is clearly a Federal responsibility. Only the U.S.
    Government is equipped with the capability and the
    constitutional authority to pursue criminals across State and
    international lines.
        For these reasons ATA strongly supports the enactment of
    the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act. This legislation will
    provide law enforcement with tools and enhanced legal
    frameworks to combat this highly complex national and
    international threat.
        Rather than ignoring what our economy needs, CORCA would
    centralize data in coordination with Federal, State, local, and
    industry, and proactively unravel schemes orchestrated by
    transna-
    tional crimes.
        The theft of cargo is a nationwide problem, and it requires
    a national solution. By bringing the fight to organized theft
    groups, CORCA would help safeguard Americans who work in our
    supply chain, and it would protect national security.
        Thank you. I look forward to answering your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Chris Spear follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Biggs. Thank you. The Chair next recognizes Mr. McBride
    for his five-minutes opening statement.

                       STATEMENT OF SCOTT McBRIDE

        Mr. McBride. Chair Biggs, Congressman Cohen, and the
    esteemed Members of the Committee, thank you for the
    opportunity to address the critical issues of organized retail
    crime.
        ORC is not new. What is new is the ferocity,
    sophistication, frequency, and geographic reach that has
    escalated dramatically in the last five years. These criminal
    networks exploit the internet and encrypted messaging apps to
    recruit thieves, coordinate consolidation of stolen goods, and
    liquidate them through illicit online marketplaces or black-
    market sites.
        They even exfiltrated stolen products out of the country.
        Simultaneously, retailers have invested in new technologies
    and provided clear insights into the scope of these thefts:
    Time stamping video evidence, pinpointing locations of the
    missing items, and enhanced collaboration with law enforcement.
    Despite our efforts, the problem continues to grow.
        ORC is far more than simple shoplifting. It represents a
    sophisticated criminal network and enterprises perpetrating
    massive thefts and escalating violence against our associates
    and customers.
        These groups cross jurisdictional lines to avoid
    prosecution, deploy professional-style tactics to field their
    nefarious operations, including diverse logistics, illicit
    liquidation, financial crimes, and recruitment.
        They repeatedly victimize retail stores of all sizes, from
    the mall, to the strip center, to the big box, and Main Street;
    and from home improvement, to grocery, to apparel, and sporting
    goods. They interrupt the normal shopping experience for our
    customers, demoralize our associates, and disrupt our supply
    chains.
        The rise in retail theft and violence is highlighted in the
    NRF's annual Impact of Violence and Theft report. This year's
    data reveals that retailers have experienced a 19 percent
    increase in merchandise thefts over the past year, compounding
    on the reported 24 percent increase from 2022-2023.
        On violence, 51 percent of retailers report thieves are
    more aggressive this year than the following 73--and in
    addition to the 73 percent increase from last year.
        In-store theft is only one aspect of organized retail
    crime. Groups have become more sophisticated in both method and
    tactic. Over the past year, 70 percent of retailers have
    reported increases in phone scams; 55 percent increased the
    digital and e-commerce fraud; and over 50 percent saw increases
    in cargo theft.
        Criminal groups utilize military-style tactics, counter-
    surveillance to commit cargo thefts on railroads, complex
    deception tactics to obtain gift cards, and cybercriminals'
    activities to steal freight across the supply chain.
        Consider one of my most recent cases where Homeland
    Security Investigations worked alongside State and local police
    to investigate and interdict a consolidation and exfiltration
    scheme:
        Stolen apparel was being prepared for packing into sea-land
    containers destined to cross the Texas border into Mexico. With
    the assistance of corporate investigators, HSI recovered
    approximately 2,000 pairs of American Eagle jeans, retail value
    of $100,000, inside of nearly $2 million in other apparel.
        RFID research revealed my items were stolen from 35 stores
    across 13 States within the past four weeks of that time. The
    group was tied to a group out of Houston and Katy, Texas, that
    linked to transnational criminal organizations in Mexico.
        Another example is when 35--I am sorry. A further example
    is when 20 stolen vehicles arrived with more than 40
    individuals suddenly converging on a suburban mall. Armed with
    implements of destruction ranging from tire irons to firearms
    that endangered customers and threatened staff to commit theft.
    This was a coordinated attack with premeditated malice and a
    determination to plunder and escape. The stolen items were not
    necessities. This group operated under the direction of a
    larger entity, with the means to mobilize and monetize their
    illicit gains.
        In conclusion, the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act,
    CORCA, is an essential missing layer. It would establish a
    Cargo Theft and Retail Crime Coordination Center, bringing
    together Federal, State, and local law enforcement with private
    sector experts to share vital information. As a professional
    dedicated to protecting consumers and associates, I implore all
    the Members of Congress to work together to ensure the
    Combating Organized Retail Act urgently becomes law.
        Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to
    testify. I look forward to answering your questions.
        [The prepared statement of Scott McBride follows:]

        [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I recognize myself now to enter a
    U.C. We have a letter from the National Association of
    Convenience Stores about this issue and about this topic. I
    will admit that into the record without objection.
        Now, I recognize the gentleman from North Carolina Mr.
    Knott for his five minutes.
        Mr. Knott. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for holding this
    an important hearing.
        To the witnesses who are here, I look forward to this
    conversation.
        We are very excited to have this hearing because it
    addresses a very real problem. It addresses just one more area
    of American life that organized crime is really striking at the
    heart. When you step back and look at the effect of organized
    crime, for a variety of reasons, including unchecked migration
    from people all over the world coming to this country, some of
    whom are coming with bad intent. If you look at weak law
    enforcement policies, antilaw enforcement policies.
        You look at former drug dealers are now cartel operatives.
    If you look at former welfare chiefs are now international
    fraudsters. Old neighborhood brawls have turned into war zones,
    gun battles. If you look at local gangs are now being replaced
    with international crime syndicates.
        That extension has certainly gone into retail crime. Many
    of you have mentioned that already. In my experience in law
    enforcement, of all those particular types of crime, most
    Americans are least familiar with organized retail crime even
    though organized retail crime affects, arguably, every single
    American the most.
        By some estimates, I've seen that the direct cost for
    organized retail theft is over $100 billion a year in this
    country. It is growing. The indirect costs are many multiples
    higher than that.
        In regard to my observations as a former prosecutor, often
    when you observed a petty crime, an individual crime, it was
    one spoken in a much larger wheel.
        To that extent, Ms. Stephan, I want to start with you. A
    lot of people who are questioning this bill have a fear that it
    is going to take away local law enforcement's ability to fight
    this crime.
        As a former Federal prosecutor, I used to work with local
    law enforcement to attack crime.
        Please tell us why Federal assistance in tackling organized
    retail theft is needed from a district attorney's perspective?
        Ms. Stephan. Thank you for that question. Absolutely there
    is a role for State prosecutors, like I talked about. There is
    a role for Federal prosecutors.
        One great example of how you can split, conquer, and make
    your community safe is an elder justice task force where we
    were able to take real action against these scammers that are
    going after our elderly. We could only, again, get to the
    people that were showing up at the doorstep of our elderly and
    prosecute them.
        By teaming up in a task force that included the U.S.
    Attorney, we were able, the Federal Government was able to do a
    RICO action. You know what that is?
        Mr. Knott. Sure.
        Ms. Stephan. There is a lot of power to bring the higher-
    ups of these terrible scammers that are abusing our seniors.
        Mr. Knott. Sure.
        Ms. Stephan. I envision the same thing for retail theft.
        Mr. Knott. Organized retail crime does not stop at your
    jurisdictional boundary, does it?
        Ms. Stephan. Not at all.
        Mr. Knott. In regard to the crimes I mentioned--gangs,
    drugs, violent criminals, and fraudsters--there is a Federal
    forum for those criminals?
        Ms. Stephan. Absolutely.
        Mr. Knott. If it is a logical extension, why would we not
    have a Federal forum for organized retail thieves?
        Ms. Stephan. These criminals travel across county lines and
    State lines, and international lines, so the only way that you
    can defeat a big monster like that is to come together and
    leverage our individual power set to take care of our
    communities.
        Mr. Knott. It's safe to say it would be a partnership, not
    a replacement, in the Federal law enforcement?
        Ms. Stephan. Absolutely. I don't plan on being replaced.
        Mr. Knott. Right. Yes, ma'am. Mr. McBride, I want to talk
    to you briefly.
        You talked about the levels of sophistication of these
    international crime syndicates. Can you describe who these
    people are and what type of mechanisms they utilize to further
    their criminal activity?
        Mr. McBride. Thank you for the question, Congressman. I
    cannot speak to exactly who they are. That is more of a
    question for HSI and the law enforcement agencies that have
    ties or information on that.
        Mr. Knott. In your experience, what have you observed?
        Mr. McBride. In my experience, we know that exfiltration
    schemes, and we are getting a clearer and clearer picture
    because of data that we are able to collect on our own product,
    that is showing there is a highly sophisticated levels of roles
    and responsibilities within these organizations.
        Some people do not leave the State. They commit the crime
    but they are working for someone that is outside the State, or
    even outside the country, who might be a shot-caller that is
    developing this mechanism and is employing--and I say that
    loosely as a term--employing them to do these crimes at
    different levels for different jobs, whether it is the
    boosting, the muling or moving the product, cleaning it and
    consolidating it, and reshipping it to a central location and
    then the exfiltration abroad.
        Mr. Knott. It is safe to say this is not just an interstate
    issue, it is an international issue, is it not?
        Mr. McBride. It is. Transnational polycriminal
    organizations are the ones that are really calling the shots
    here.
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. Thank you.
        Mr. Knott. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. McBride. Thank you.
        Mr. Biggs. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from
    Tennessee, Mr. Cohen.
        Mr. Cohen. Thank you, sir. I want to followup on Mr.
    Knott's question. I am going to start with District Attorney
    Stephan, Darrell Issa's friend.
        Is this deterrent-based car theft devices, does that help
    your situation? They can't get into the cars with these devices
    on them, can they?
        Ms. Stephan. Well, innovations like that have been very
    helpful in auto thefts; that's correct.
        Mr. Cohen. Darrell's fighting crime?
        Ms. Stephan. Pardon me?
        Mr. Cohen. Darrell's fighting crime was we speak. As you
    speak, right?
        Mr. McBride couldn't give us any names. Mr. Knott wanted
    some names. I'd like some.
        Who? Who are we talking about? In drugs we know it is El
    Chapo, and Pablo Escobar, and blah-blah-blah. Who is it in this
    situation? Who are the big names? Do you get any of them ever?
        Ms. Stephan. Well, we know some names, yes. We know that,
    for example, when it comes to what I talked about, the
    commercial burglaries and the home burglary crews, those we
    have been able to identify with a group that is abusing what is
    called an ESTA visa. That is coming from a variety of
    countries.
        They are coming in, and then getting replaced and another
    group comes in and just follows through with what they have
    been doing. That has been identified.
        Mr. Cohen. Can you tell us the names? Are they big crime
    syndicates or are they just crime?
        Ms. Stephan. Well, I think it is big crime because it is
    affecting a lot of people, victims in my community.
        Mr. Cohen. Right.
        Ms. Stephan. I go by what the Federal Government is what
    does the designations. I know that the FBI has designated them
    as a crossnational, transnational crime group.
        Mr. Cohen. San Diego is different than Memphis and Kansas
    City. You are on the international border.
        Ms. Stephan. Yes.
        Mr. Cohen. Are cities in the interior of the United States
    getting the same type of crimes? Are they people from outside
    the country that are doing this predominantly?
        I see some bobbing heads in the crowd. Do you bob, too?
        Ms. Stephan. From the people that we have captured in these
    commercial and residential burglary crews, they have hit
    multiple States. I don't think that they are traveling from
    State-to-State very easily. I can't tell you they are in your
    State. We have had cases where they have Arizona, they have got
    the State of Washington. They have got Colorado.
        We have had several sophisticated crews that have come
    across multiple countries. How do we know? It is when we arrest
    them and we download their phones using the proper search
    warrant. We are able to track their communications and their
    movements.
        They usually rent cars in different locations and start
    over. This is very sophisticated. It is not like the fentanyl
    where I can tell you exactly where it is coming from and who is
    producing it. It is much more distributed.
        My answer to you would be this: That without a database we
    are not going to be able to connect the dots.
        Mr. Cohen. That in the CORCA bill, that they would be one?
        Ms. Stephan. Exactly. In the CORCA bill, Section 17, Number
    6, it talks specifically about that part of what it is going to
    uncover is connections with intersections with other criminal
    activity, like potentially elder scams, like human trafficking.
        Mr. Cohen. I have only got about a minute left. Let me ask
    you this, and if anybody else can answer me, too.
        What I am trying, and I don't know if I know the names
    anyway, but is there an Al Capone out there? Is there some big
    criminal type that is in charge of this whole deal?
        Ms. Stephan. Not that I know of.
        Mr. Cohen. OK.
        Ms. Stephan. What I do know is we haven't done enough to
    get the answer. We won't get the answer without a task force.
        Mr. Cohen. Right.
        Mr. McBride. Congressman, I can only speak to following our
    product. Our product is being exfiltrated across the Texas
    border into Mexico. Our product is being interdicted in the
    Port of Long Beach, headed for Colombia, South America.
        We have also been involved in investigations with HSI on
    container shipments outside of the port of New Jersey.
        Those products are being loaded into a container. That
    container is being manifested to leave the country. All of the
    products is stolen from multiple retailers, mine included,
    inside of those containers.
        We have recovered many of them. Some have slipped through
    and not been able to be stopped.
        From a transnational perspective there are kingpins out
    there. I do not know their names. I am not privy to that law
    enforcement side. There is probably confidential information
    that is not being shared with the retailers where those--
        Mr. Cohen. We need to talk--we need to talk to the FBI and
    Kash Patel. This should be his area of jurisdiction; is that
    correct?
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. You may answer
    the question, Mr. McBride.
        Mr. McBride. I believe that it is a Federal issue and that
    we need national link analysis. The HSI has been the most
    helpful so far. We would expect that they would be able to lead
    this charge.
        The FBI is certainly involved as a partner, along with
    other Federal agencies.
        Mr. Cohen. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Biggs. The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from
    Florida, Ms. Lee, for five minutes.
        Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this important
    hearing.
        Thank you to all our witnesses for being here with us
    today. You have highlighted something that is so important for
    us in Congress to recognize, and that is that the threat of
    organized retail crime has grown exponentially. Today we are
    seeing such sophisticated schemes involving fraud,
    impersonation, and also cyber-related tactics. That
    necessitates, in my ways, a Federal coordinated response.
        In my home State of Florida we have seen an increase in
    cargo theft. It is impacting freight hubs all over our State.
    The increasing sophistication of these criminal networks
    highlights that need for greater Federal law enforcement
    support.
        Mr. Spear, I would like to go back to you and your
    testimony.
        One of the things that you noted is that there is in some
    State and local law enforcement areas a lack of resources in
    jurisdiction. You noted that this was clearly a Federal
    responsibility.
        I would like to hear a bit more from you about that lack of
    resources in jurisdiction, how it is affecting crime prevention
    in this way and, also, the advanced cyber tactics that are
    being used to disrupt our cargo transport and, also, the safe
    containment of these retail products.
        Mr. Spear. Thank you, Congresswoman. Yes, I would be happy
    to.
        Trucking obviously operates in all 50 States, every
    congressional district. We see the panoramic view of the
    Nation. Moving freight State-to-State is a daily experience for
    us.
        We work with State law enforcement, we work with local law
    enforcement. The problem with this is that you are obviously
    moving from one point to another, this freight can get taken at
    any point in time, in any State. It is that sporadic.
        Obviously, we will work with local law enforcement if they
    are first on the scene, State law enforcement. That freight
    can, obviously, be in another State before we can even figure
    out that it was taken.
        The speed of our response the ability to share information
    quickly, Federal databases could be a harbinger for that to
    really understand the broader ramifications, not just about
    where the freight could be headed in different States, but
    also, other links and organizations that might be responsible
    for it.
        The local and State law enforcement aren't going to have
    that ability to see State-to-State, see Federal. That panoramic
    view is the missing piece of the puzzle. OK? We are working
    just fine local and State. It is getting the national fabric,
    that interstate fabric into the puzzle to make it complete and
    actually be able to go after these criminal organizations
    effectively with the speed that we need to tackle the problem.
        The transnational criminal organizations, that is an
    international element. That is the strategic theft that we are
    speaking to. These groups are operating out of Eastern Europe,
    Russia, South Africa, and China. These are places where if you
    have a laptop, you have access to a process, a system. You can
    go into a bill of lading and redirect freight as it is in
    motion.
        We have had members that the driver thinks it is
    legitimate, it is the company's system that is telling them to
    redirect, drop the freight to a dummy site. That freight is
    long gone before they even figure out that it was taken. That
    is going to require multiple States being part of a Federal
    fabric to be able to understand where that threat is coming
    from and how to prevent it.
        The State and local governments do not have the capability
    to attack transnational organizations. That is a Federal
    responsibility. It is the missing piece of the puzzle. If you
    put it in under CORCA, then you really have a full solution to
    tackling this problem quickly.
        Ms. Lee. Mr. Bennett, I would like to go back to you on
    this subject. I know that you also work a lot in digital and
    cyber defense in your position.
        Would you please comment on the that organized retail crime
    is no longer limited to in-store theft. You touched on a couple
    of these other digital consequences, things that are happening.
        What are you working on? What are you seeing from a cyber
    defenses perspective and how technology is being used to help
    promote and perpetrate these schemes?
        Mr. Bennett. Representative Lee, thank you very much for
    the question.
        From my perspective, the work that we do on our team, this
    is a really important element from a technological perspective.
    Advanced analytics, identifying atoms of behavior, all these
    things are critically important.
        I am sure everyone on the panel has received a text message
    that says you didn't pay--you need to pay a fee or a fine in
    EZPass. At first glance that doesn't seem like organized retail
    crime. You might not connect it to organized retail crime. That
    is a fraudster fishing information from you that ultimately is
    going to turn into some sort of laundering activity, in large
    part in the retail environment.
        Those are examples of how consumers see ORC, and they don't
    realize it. It might look like an individual issue. It is
    connected to a much larger scheme and scam. I know I mentioned
    our gift cards early on. We could talk about that.
        Mr. Biggs. Yes, thank you. Time has expired. Thank you.
        Ms. Lee. Thank you.
        Mr. Biggs. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas,
    Mr. Nehls.
        Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for being
    here.
        As a former sheriff for Fort Bend County, Texas, in law
    enforcement for 30 years, back in 2017-2018 already we were
    experiencing organized crime in the greater Houston area. We
    arrested several individuals from Venezuela coming in,
    creating, committing many, many burglaries, and residential
    burglaries. We had them coming in from Honduras and everywhere
    else.
        I believe that many of these burglars would come into our
    country having been deported previously several times for
    previous crimes. Personally, I believe what you guys are
    experiencing right now and the increase of crime is because of
    our Southern border, and that porous Southern border over the
    past several years.
        Would you agree--if I can go down the line, would you agree
    that our policies at the Southern border have contributed to
    this chaos we see in organized theft and retail theft across
    the country? Just a yes or no.
        Ms. Stephan. I can't answer that.
        Mr. Nehls. OK, then we will go to the next. Mr. Bennett,
    yes or no?
        Mr. Bennett. The view that we often have in retail is
    limited, so I can't really answer that.
        Mr. Nehls. OK.
        Mr. Spear. We move 76 percent of the USMCA freight. Yes, it
    is definitely an issue. We are a moving target.
        Mr. Nehls. Yes. You highlighted the fact that they were--
    you are the one who talked about the refrigerators?
        Mr. Spear. That is correct.
        Mr. Nehls. They were going back across to Mexico and
    everybody else.
        Mr. Spear. That is correct. How about you, Mr. McBride?
        Mr. McBride. I do not have any data that would lead me to
    be able to say yes or no.
        Mr. Nehls. Well, the average person that has served in law
    enforcement for all the years, you are seeing what Tren de
    Aragua was doing. I am assuming that they are probably involved
    with some of this.
        In just my experience as a sheriff, I think over the past
    several years our Southern border policies has contributed to
    this chaos, whether it is in just retail or just part one
    crimes, everything. Assault, all of it is a result of our
    Southern border. I am going to make a prediction.
        You have seen an increase in crime. The numbers you said
    that over the past several years these crimes have become
    increasing. Do you believe that with our position now at the
    Southern border with Donald J. Trump, are you optimistic that
    we are going to see a reduction in some of this organized
    retail crime as a result of our position at the Southern border
    with they are just not letting anybody in anymore?
        Just yes or no, ma'am.
        Ms. Stephan. I can tell you definitively when it comes to
    drugs and fentanyl, yes. I cannot tell you with regard to
    retail theft.
        Mr. Nehls. I am assuming retail theft would probably help
    them with their drug addiction.
        Mr. Bennett. My perspective would be that we need the
    support from the Federal Government to help solve this issue.
        Mr. Spear. If he signs this bill, CORCA, absolutely. We
    will have the piece of the puzzle that we need to combat it,
    not just domestically but internationally.
        Mr. McBride. My position is that organized retail crime is
    recruiting and has recruited more than we know across all
    States, and that CORCA is the only way that we are going to get
    visibility to this type of crime in this country.
        Mr. Nehls. Well, again, through my experience as a sheriff
    and arresting some of these bad hombres, knowing that after we
    have arrested them they have been deported four, five, six
    times for some of the same damn crimes they have committed
    before, we have arrested but they keep coming back, I will just
    say this, Mr. Bennett, the Federal Government is getting
    involved because Donald J. Trump has secured the Southern
    border. He secured the Southern border.
        The way you reduce all this recidivism is by keep them out
    of our country; right? Keep them out.
        I support the idea of a task force, by the way, Mr. Chair.
    I think it is a great idea. I believe that we are going to come
    back, maybe have a hearing in another year or so, and you are
    going to have a better attitude about this, because that the
    Southern border is a serious, serious issue. Now that it has
    been solved by keeping the bad hombres out, help is on its way
    is what I say.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. I recognize the
    gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Tiffany.
        Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Mr. Bennett, the leading home improvement retailer in the
    Midwest, they gave me an example of theft that has happened in
    their stores. Does this sound plausible? The numbers are really
    staggering.
        In 2022, a husband-and-wife team stoled over $33,000 worth
    of goods. They have stolen half a million dollars from other
    retailers.
        Nineteen different teams of Romani suspects--some people
    referred, or some people refer to them as Gypsies--crossed the
    Midwest stealing electrical breakers, $165,000.
        In 2024, eight different suspects committed theft via
    credit card to the tune of $224,000 at 46 locations. A total of
    107 individual police reports, only three have been arrested.
        In 2025, 209 separate instances of rental equipment theft,
    128 different stores, $350,000 loss. Is this plausible?
        Mr. Bennett. Representative Tiffany, thank you for the
    question.
        I am not familiar with all those cases, obviously, with a
    partner retailer, but certainly it is plausible.
        Mr. Tiffany. I mean, $165,000 of electrical breakers? What
    the heck are they doing with them?
        Mr. Bennett. Well, I can speak to my space here on fraud. I
    can tell you that there are numbers of consumers that are
    victimized.
        I have worked on cases where we have had 38 victims from 38
    different States all linked to one investigation. These sort of
    complex, structured activities are certainly, certainly
    plausible.
        Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Spear, I am going to followup on Mr.
    Nehls' questioning here.
        About the Southern border, doesn't it make sense if we are
    being diligent as a Federal Government on our Southern border
    about who is coming in and out of the country, that some of
    these bad actors are transnational; is that correct?
        Mr. Spear. That is correct.
        Mr. Tiffany. The best way to access us is oftentimes the
    Southern border; correct?
        Mr. Spear. It's a contributing factor.
        Mr. Tiffany. Doesn't it just make sense, then, that by
    securing the Southern border for this particular issue that it
    is going to be helpful?
        Mr. Spear. There is no question about that. The Southern
    border is certainly an element to it. It is a very complex
    problem. It is not just the Southern border. It is legit, no
    doubt, but this is happening electronically, the strategic
    theft that I have spoken about. That is the 1,500 percent rise
    since 2021.
        Again, if you have a laptop you can access. A lot of these
    groups want to fly under the radar.
        I understand Congressman Cohen's question about names. I
    wouldn't focus on names; I would focus on numbers. This is a
    vast volume of freight being stolen electronically and
    redirected. A lot of it is getting shipped out of the country.
        This goes way beyond hit and run type of theft, the
    straight theft that we have seen over 100 years with trucks.
    This is a very complex, digitally driven renaissance. This is
    really sophisticated stuff. A lot of it is being handled out of
    Eastern Europe.
        I was just over meeting with the European Parliament,
    educating them on the problem in their backyard. They were
    oblivious. They had absolutely no idea that a lot of the theft
    that is occurring here in the United States is originating in
    their backyard.
        There needs to be an element, a Federal element that
    coordinates that. The States' localities do not coordinate with
    INTER-POL. That is a Federal responsibility between DHS, DOJ,
    and DOT. Bringing them into the puzzle, completing that fabric
    and being able to coordinate the broader implication beyond the
    Southern border is really what we are looking for.
        Mr. Tiffany. You are talking about all elements need to
    work together; right?
        Mr. Spear. All elements.
        Mr. Tiffany. As Mr. Cohen or, no, Mr. Raskin commented
    about this is not your average shoplifter. There are some
    prosecutors who are going to have to up their game; right? I am
    not referring to you. Mr. Issa gave a glowing review of the
    work that you have done, District Attorney.
        Isn't it correct that prosecutors need to do their job
    also; is that correct?
        Mr. Spear. Absolutely. It is just all the pieces have to
    work. Nobody is trying to take jurisdiction from the others; it
    is just fulfilling those parts and pieces.
        Sharing information is step one. You have got to be able to
    understand beyond one State where the cargo is moving. Is it
    the origin where it originated? Is it in motion? Is it the
    destination? That could, that could canvas multiple States.
        Who do you file it with? Where does it go? That depository
    is really needed.
        Mr. Tiffany. I want to get one final question in for Mr.
    McBride.
        Which State policies targeting organized crime in your
    opinion have been effective? What State policies have been
    effective?
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. You may
    answer, Mr. McBride.
        Mr. McBride. Yes, Congressman. Thank you for the question.
        There is multiple States that have enacted organized retail
    crime laws. Those are being very, very effective within those
    States. The challenge is we need that national level link
    analysis and coordination center to be able to tie those
    together. Thank you.
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired. I now
    recognize the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore, for his five
    minutes.
        Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. McBride, have there
    been changes in the types of merchandise targeted by criminals
    in ORC?
        Mr. McBride. Every single retailer--thank you for the
    question, Congressman--every single retailer has a key set of
    products that are being targeted by the organized retail crime
    groups. In my case it is denim, it is jeans from American Eagle
    Outfitters. It is the highly lucrative, most expensive item
    that we sell on a regular basis.
        Other retailers have their own products that are being
    targeted. There were some photographs in the hearing room
    earlier of those products that are being recovered on a daily
    basis from law enforcement agencies at the local-State levels
    all over the country.
        Mr. Moore. Can you explain how certain policies led to an
    increase in ORC?
        Mr. McBride. In the post-COVID era--
        Mr. Moore. The ones you feel that.
        Mr. McBride. Yes. In the post-COVID era, the organized
    retail crime groups took the time to retool. They have used the
    internet encrypted apps to recruit known associates.
        They have used leverage techniques and social engineering
    to gain the upper hand on folks within the--armed citizens
    within the United States to do the dirty work at the lowest
    levels. They are sometimes minor. They are recruited and they
    are expendable to those organizations. They will roll up the
    next one to commit those crimes.
        They have a multilevel organized set of command structures
    that they use to boost, move, consolidate, and clean. Because
    they will remove tickets, they will remove sensor antitheft
    devices. They will throw away any GPS trackers that we insert
    inside this cargo to try to be able to get eyes on the
    movements. Then, they will exfiltrate that product out of the
    country.
        Mr. Moore. Are the jeans being lifted off the shelves? Or
    how is that happening when you say they just, they come into
    the stores themselves?
        Mr. McBride. Correct. Correct, Congressman. In the retail
    stores they are being boosted by what we call boosters; right?
    They come in and commit mass thefts. They may come in and
    overwhelm a staff in a store that may only have a few
    associates working. They use intimidation tactics to try to
    come back and revictimize the same locations over and over
    again because it is easier for them.
        We are also experiencing cargo theft. We had some of our
    shipments interdicted. We have, as my fellow witness stated,
    trucks that are broken into at truck stops, at red lights, in
    the mall parking lot they will be removed.
        Mr. Moore. Mr. Spear, I remember we were in the trucking
    business growing up. I was in New York one night. We were in
    the sleeper asleep and the truck started shaking.
        All of a sudden we go back and they have cut the lock, and
    they are stealing out the back of the truck. Now, it sounds
    like it is almost and it is a technological advantage for the
    criminal element; right?
        How do they reroute this? Is that something they are doing
    with the GPS system, or how are they sending these trucks?
        Do they look official and then they send them an email and
    say, hey, you are going here? How does that happen?
        Mr. Spear. Yes, hackers will get into the systems. Bill of
    ladings they can see, actually, the most expensive cargo.
        That is what is different here. It is not just a hit and
    run and we roll the dice, did we get something valuable? They
    know what is in the truck. It could be pharmaceuticals. It
    could be munitions. It could be a whole host of things that we
    don't want criminals to even know is in the truck.
        You can see that when you get into the system. They double
    broker. They work with brokers. They are a facade. They are
    going as a legitimate motor carrier. They are a front, they are
    a false front. They intervene in that process as the broker
    that's handling the freight from the shipper to the motor
    carrier. They pose as a false carrier, basically.
        Mr. Moore. Will they take it to a dock or a warehouse
    somewhere normally or?
        Mr. Spear. Yes, it will move in, generally, multiple
    States. These are products that often end up going overseas.
    Energy drinks are banned in multiple countries. Didn't know
    that, actually?
        Mr. Moore. It is like Coors beer used to be banned. In
    Smokey and the Bandit they would move them East in the State.
        Mr. Spear. Growing up in Wyoming I can understand.
        Mr. Moore. You know all about that, don't you?
        Mr. Spear. Yes, I do. Energy drinks they put them on the
    black market in these banned countries. It is a very
    sophisticated crime. It is not just the hit and run type of
    crime that we have been familiar with for the last 100 years.
    This is very crypto-driven criminal activity that is done
    overseas, well abroad.
        Mr. Moore. Yes. I was in New York that night, they stole
    shrimp from our reefer unit. The thing was, they didn't know
    what was in it. I am amazed now that they actually get the bill
    of lading and know what they are stealing.
        Mr. Bennett, one last question here. Do you think soft-on-
    crime policies affect the safety of the employees and customers
    inside Target stores?
        Mr. Bennett. My experience is that we have seen violence in
    our stores. That crime in our communities is problematic.
        What is most important to us at Target is protecting our
    teams and our guests. We certainly focus on that from the
    strategy perspective.
        Mr. Moore. I yield back.
        Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. The Chair recognizes
    the gentleman from California, Mr. Kiley for his five minutes.
        Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In California, we have
    had probably the worst retail crime problem in the country. You
    go to our major cities, most of the things in basic convenience
    stores are behind lock and key.
        The cause of this is probably threefold: A lack of
    resources for police; some rogue district attorneys like George
    Gascon in L.A. who, fortunately, has been removed by the
    voters; and then very weak laws when it comes to punishing
    retail theft.
        Things got so bad--we have a witness from Target here
    today--that last year our Governor Gavin Newsom was visiting a
    Target when a thief absconded with a variety of merchandise.
    The Governor starts berating one of the Target employees,
    saying, ``Why aren't you stopping them?''
        Apparently the employee didn't recognize who she was
    talking to and she said, ``Well, we can't because of the
    Governor.''
        Despite this, the Governor himself opposed an initiative
    that I was part of last year to actually restore some real
    consequences for retail theft in California. It eventually
    became known as Prop. 36. The Governor led the opposition
    against it. The State's political class closed ranks in
    opposing Prop. 36.
        Yet, at the end of the day it passed with 68 percent of the
    vote. It passed in every single one of California's 58
    counties, even Governor Newsom's San Francisco. It got more
    votes than any other measure on the ballot, showing just how
    fed up the people of California are with the rampant
    lawlessness that is proving such a threat to business and to
    safety.
        We have a district attorney with us today. District
    Attorney Stephan, I know that you are a supporter or at least
    are grateful for the passage of Prop. 36. Can you just let us
    know how it has improved the ability of your office to actually
    hold criminals accountable and deter crime?
        Ms. Stephan. Thank you, Representative Kiley, for your help
    with this proposition. It has been a game changer for us.
        We have been able to prosecute. It targets, as you know,
    habitual offenders. It doesn't target the kid who makes a
    mistake, but we are targeting the habitual offenders.
        San Diego has already seen a 23 percent reduction in
    property crimes. It still doesn't get to that high level
    organized criminals that we need this legislation, the CORCA
    legislation, for. It certainly has given us the tools to act.
        Of course, something that I worked on for a whole year
    alongside you and other leaders.
        Mr. Kiley. That is right. The DA's Association really led
    the charge on that. Thank you for all your work on it and what
    you are doing now. We certainly need these measures at the
    Federal level to supplement those new consequences.
        Just out of curiosity, if you could have your wish as to
    any other changes that we could work for in California to make
    your office better able to protect the people of San Diego,
    anything come to mind?
        Ms. Stephan. Well, for now my wish is for the CORCA bill
    that the national DA's Association supports and I support. We
    don't know what we don't know. By having a database we will
    learn information, connect the dots, and be able to go after
    organized crime. There is really no other way to do it.
        Mr. Kiley. Right. Well, thanks very much. We have made
    crime illegal again, as say now in California, with this
    initiative. We still have a long way to go. We have seen a real
    improvement in no small part because of dedicated prosecutors
    like yourself.
        Thanks very much. I yield back.
        Mr. Biggs. Will you yield to Mr. Knott?
        Mr. Kiley. I would be happy to, yes.
        Mr. Knott. Thank you, Mr. Kiley. I want to be sure we are
    clarifying something here.
        There is a lot of talk about names, organizations, and so
    forth. In my experience as a prosecutor you have a local
    incident, like a drug seizure. Then, you have repeated local
    incidents, the same seizure, and the same person. There is a
    search warrant for a device or a car and international contacts
    are discovered.
        You go up the chain, and you realize this is part of a much
    larger operation. It is not every stop. It is not every
    seizure. When you uncover an international organization with a
    more sophisticated wheel, you have a forum in Federal law
    enforcement to hand that case over to.
        That is where I received the cases. We are talking about
    whether it is drugs, whether it is firearms, whether it is
    human trafficking, there is a forum when those incidents occur.
        There is not a forum for retail theft. The retail theft is
    occurring over, and over, and over with impunity. I just wanted
    to clarify that. Is that consistent with what you have
    experienced, Madam DA?
        Ms. Stephan. That is absolutely the right description. We
    have that. We have a forum for fentanyl where we handle some
    cases, the Feds handle international cases. We have it for
    scams. We have it for gang violence.
        Mr. Knott. Yes.
        Ms. Stephan. We do not have it for something that is
    ripping off the places that are the heartbeat of America.
        Mr. Knott. Right.
        Ms. Stephan. Small businesses and large businesses.
        Mr. Knott. That is right. It is literally--one more point,
    Mr. Chair--it is literally I would get a--
        Mr. Biggs. Quickly. Quickly.
        Mr. Knott. --notebook of a Case Summary that said this
    started local and now it is clearly international. Then, I
    would work with local law enforcement to prosecute that case.
    You can't do that with retail theft. We need to fix that.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Knott. Those are great points. I
    appreciate that. I recognize myself for, for five minutes.
        This kind of reminds me of the pre-1972ish idea in America
    that there was no such thing as the Mafia. If you remember
    that. Hard to believe that we went into the Seventies, the
    movie The Godfather was required to remove the term Cosa Nostra
    or Mafia from it by Joe Colombo, who was the head of New York
    crime families, one of the five families.
        This reminds me of that because no one know who the kingpin
    is. We know that it involves international manipulation. We
    know and suspect that, in my opinion, you also have South of
    the border cartel activity as well directing this. Because I
    live in Arizona and we see evidence of this.
        This is a big thing that is happening. It is spreading and
    it is growing. Even though I am certain that South of the
    border cartels are involved, I am also just as certain that
    there are other international kingpins that we have got to
    reach out that are in China, Asia, Russia, Russia, and Europe.
        I just want to report that not too many months ago I took a
    tour of my local Walmart, big super Walmart place. I have been
    to Target, too, but I didn't take the tour there. I just, I
    have been to Target, too, so.
        What do we find is they said, ``let us show you the aisle
    from which we have had to take really decisive action because
    it is the aisle from which most of our stuff was getting ripped
    off. It is the Lego aisle.'' Everything is--that is hard to
    believe. Nonetheless, they were stealing it.
        They were doing exactly what you are saying, they are
    ripping off a whole--like what you were describing with jeans--
    somebody is coming in, they are boosting a whole bunch, getting
    it out of there. Overwhelming the staff and moving it on some
    marketplace, extraneous marketplace.
        There is a definite need to resolve some of this issue.
        I am going to ask you a question in a second, Mr. Spear. I
    want to say that one of the things that has to happen at the
    Federal level besides this national law that you are looking
    for, which is CORCA, is you are going to have--the Feds have
    got to do Southbound operations on the border.
        We do Northbound operations endlessly. We send people back.
    That is why you are seeing the slowdown. We don't do Southbound
    operations very often. That dearth, that void allows truckloads
    of various items to go South of the border without ever being
    detected because we just don't have the personnel, nor the
    strategy to interdict going South. Southbound operations it is
    going to have to step up if we are going to really close this
    thing down.
        Mr. Spear, I wanted to ask you a question with regard to
    your testimony on page 10 of your testimony. I am trying to
    figure out your tables, Tables 8 and 9. I want you to explain
    those to us.
        Then, I also want you to talk about the large trucking
    companies versus the smaller or 10 units and below trucking
    companies because I am wondering is there a distinction.
        Are the big companies sharing the ripoffs as much as the
    smaller companies are?
        Mr. Spear. Yes. If you look at page 10 of the written
    testimony, Tables 8 and 9. Table 8 is centered on motor
    carriers. These are actual trucking companies that are, are
    moving the product. These are the States where we are
    witnessing the most activity year over year.
        As you can see, there is a lot of States in here that are
    ports. We also have several that are inside the U.S. that also
    have access to riverways like Tennessee.
        It is the type of cargo. It is usually occurring in larger
    cities, areas where there are ports, where there are ways that
    you can move very quickly. That is the motor carrier chart.
        Then, if you go into Table 9, that is the logistics service
    provider chart. This is the strategic theft that I was speaking
    about. This is the brokers, the third-party folks that handle,
    intervene, that handle the shipments on behalf of the shipper,
    the motor carrier. They are the brokers.
        This is where the electronic element comes in, masking as a
    motor carrier or a false business. Obtains the cargo and is
    able to move it from State-to-State, even abroad. This is where
    we have seen the 1,500 percent surge since 2021. This is the
    escalating type of crime that is not just on the Southern
    border, it is around the world.
        The access through a laptop is the catalyst for doing that.
    If you look at these States, you are also seeing a pretty
    similar pattern to what you see for motor carriers. This is
    where we really see the surge of cargo theft.
        Mr. Biggs. Is there any distinction between large trucking
    companies, particularly in the logistics portion, in the
    hijacking the technology?
        Mr. Spear. Yes. Some of our largest members have
    experienced it in various ways. They have more interaction with
    other modes with rail, for instance, who are listed in the 90-
    plus supply chain sponsors supporting CORCA. They have a lot of
    interaction, intermodal interaction with other modes as well.
        There is a lot of connectivity and they are going to have a
    lot more robust systems to see what is happening and track it.
    They also have a lot more technology in the trucks, as well as
    the trailers, to track that cargo.
        To get down to 10 trucks or less operations, they are not
    going to have the wherewithal to combat this, let alone the
    ability to ``who do I call?'' Do I call it where the cargo
    originated, where it is headed, or where the crime occurred?
    Who do I call beyond State and local law enforcement?
        There is no centerpiece to coordinate that. There is no
    sharing and there is no understanding. That is the missing
    piece of the puzzle that I think will bring in more capability
    for the 10 trucks or less businesses.
        We don't want to see those folks go under. They are very
    important to local communities. They are doing the hard work
    day-to-day. They are just as important as the largest members
    of ATA.
        Obviously, that is a direct interaction, too, with truck
    drivers. We really do care about their safety as well.
        Being able to train up and have that capability, we want
    that to happen across all members, large and small. Giving them
    that capability would be a huge step up. We believe CORCA does
    that.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I appreciate each Member of our
    panel, and your testimony, and your statement that is written
    and incorporated into the record. We appreciate it.
        This is an important topic to us. As I spoke to all of you
    beforehand, this is necessary before you can even begin to move
    a markup bill.
        We have been called to vote. I am going to yield about 30
    seconds max to my friend from North Carolina who is just
    itching to ask another question, so.
        Mr. Knott. Mr. Spear, just briefly, is there anything we
    can do besides the criminal enforcement to assist in protecting
    the marketplace from these sophisticated scams?
        Mr. Spear. Yes. The enhanced enforcement, Federal, State,
    local, and working with us. We have to invest in this. We have
    got to train our employees just as much. That is all-important.
    It is multiple pieces at the same time. What is missing is the
    Federal.
        The enforcement piece is important. I think better
    information sharing is really, really critical.
        We talked about that. Deputy District Attorney talked about
    that in terms of other States and being able to see the
    broader, bigger picture. That is where you are going to see
    some of the bigger names and maybe who is behind this.
        Mr. Knott. Yes.
        Mr. Spear. Like I said, a lot of these folks want to stay
    low on the radar. They don't want to be tracked.
        Mr. Knott. The best criminals are the hardest to catch.
        Mr. Spear. That is exactly right. You are seeing them grow
    exponentially.
        We think the information, the reporting, and the ability to
    harbor that information is going to really, really help
    Federal, State, local, as well as our industry understand the
    bigger problem, connect the dots faster.
        Again, this is all about speed.
        Mr. Knott. Yes.
        Mr. Spear. It is being able to act quickly and understand
    that. You get this extra piece of the puzzle in there; we will
    be in a better place to do that.
        Mr. Knott. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Knott. Thank you, Members of the
    panel. Everyone will have five days to ask additional questions
    or submit statements for the record.
        With that, we are adjourned. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 10:32 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

        All materials submitted for the record by Members of the
    Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance can
    be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent
    .aspx?EventID=118765.

                                     [all]