[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                EXAMINING POTENTIAL UPDATES TO THE NVRA
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS

                                 OF THE

                   COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                           DECEMBER 10, 2025

                               __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration
      
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                           
                   COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

                    BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin, Chairman

LAUREL LEE, Florida, Vice Chair      JOSEPH MORELLE, New York,
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia                 Ranking Member
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia         TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina          NORMA TORRES, California
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             JULIE JOHNSON, Texas
MARY MILLER, Illinois
MIKE CAREY, Ohio

                       Mike Platt, Staff Director
                  Jamie Fleet, Minority Staff Director

                                 ------                                

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS

                       LAUREL LEE, Florida, Chair

BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama,
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina               Ranking Member
MARY MILLER, Illinois                JULIE JOHNSON, Texas

                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                           Opening Statements

Chair Laurel Lee, Representative from the State of Florida.......     1
    Prepared statement of Chair Laurel Lee.......................     3
Ranking Member Terri A. Sewell, Representative from the State of 
  Alabama........................................................     4
    Prepared statement of Ranking Member Terri A. Sewell.........     6
Prepared statement of Ranking Member of the Committee on House 
  Administration Joseph Morelle..................................    55

                               Witnesses

Mark Braden, of counsel, Baker Hostetler.........................     7
    Prepared statement of Mark Braden............................     9
Michael Morley, faculty director of the Election Law Center, 
  Sheila M. McDevitt Professor of Law............................    15
    Prepared statement of Michael Morley.........................    17
Sophia Lin Lakin, director, Voting Rights Project, American Civil 
  Liberties Union................................................    24
    Prepared statement of Sophia Lin Lakin.......................    26

                       Submissions for the Record

League of Women Voters statement.................................    51
Southern Poverty Law Center written statement....................    72

 
                          EXAMINING POTENTIAL
                          UPDATES TO THE NVRA

                              ----------                              


                           December 10, 2025

                 Subcommittee on Elections,
                 Committee on House Administration,
                                  House of Representatives,
                                                   Washington, D.C.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:38 p.m., in 
room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Laurel Lee 
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Lee, Miller, Sewell, Morelle, and 
Johnson.
    Staff present: Mike Platt, Staff Director; Rachel Collins, 
General Counsel; Abby Salter, Deputy General Counsel; Jordan 
Wilson, Director of Member Services; Kristen Monterroso, 
Director of Operations; Josh Weber, Counsel; Annemarie Cake, 
Professional Staff and Deputy Clerk; Jamie Fleet, Minority 
Staff Director; Khalil Abboud, Minority Deputy Staff Director; 
Nikolas Youngsmith, Minority Elections Counsel; Sarah Nasta, 
Minority Senior Advisor and Director of Outreach; and Owen 
Reilly, Minority Professional Staff.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LAUREL LEE, CHAIR OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE 
        ON ELECTIONS, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM FLORIDA

    Chair Lee. The Subcommittee on Elections of the Committee 
on House Administration will come to order.
    The title of today's hearing is ``Examining Potential 
Updates to the NVRA.''
    I note that a quorum is present. Without objection, the 
Chair may declare a recess at any time. Also, without 
objection, the hearing record will remain open for five 
legislative days so Members may submit any materials they wish 
to be included therein.
    Today the Committee on House Administration's Subcommittee 
on Elections will continue its oversight of Federal election 
law.
    Thirty-two years ago, the National Voter Registration Act, 
or the NVRA, was passed with the goal of increasing voter 
registration, removing bureaucratic barriers, and ensuring 
States accurately maintain their voter rolls. Today we will 
discuss ways to strengthen those original goals of the NVRA.
    According to the Election Assistance Commission, today over 
86 percent of the eligible voting population are active 
registered voters. Contrast that to 1992, right before the 
law's passage, when registration was at 68 percent. That is a 
great thing for our democracy.
    As a former secretary of state, I believe it is incumbent 
on us as policymakers to continuously seek feedback from 
elections officials on the ground about what works, what can be 
improved, and how changes in technology and resources affect 
elections administration.
    Throughout my time as Florida's Secretary of State and as a 
Member of Congress, I have had many of those discussions, 
including with other secretaries of state and local elections 
officials.
    This hearing will examine opportunities to update the NVRA, 
to strengthen voter confidence in our election laws, and 
improve election administration.
    Thoughtful review and modernization of the NVRA will 
improve elections administration and remove barriers to 
efficiency.
    Currently, the NVRA requires that States conduct a general 
program that makes reasonable efforts to remove the names of 
ineligible voters from the official list of eligible voters.
    This ambiguous language has left courts to issue broad 
rulings about what constitutes general and reasonable. This 
ultimately means States are not required and sometimes not even 
permitted to remove ineligible voters due to errors on their 
registration form, lack of U.S. citizenship, criminal 
conviction, mental incapacity, or other reasons consistent with 
their State laws for which a registration may be invalid.
    Election officials benefit from clear and unambiguous laws 
which will help them to carry out their duties and to ensure 
voter lists are accurate and up-to-date.
    We have had witnesses testify in this very room about how 
the NVRA's language actually prevents election officials from 
conducting robust list maintenance in the manner they think 
appropriate.
    Examples include the blackout period for list maintenance 
and delays in removing voters who have moved to a new 
jurisdiction. In some cases a voter who has moved must request 
removal, and an election official must wait two general 
election cycles to remove a now ineligible or relocated voter.
    We must also recognize that modern technology has made 
certain provisions of the NVRA obsolete. While 30 years have 
passed since the NVRA's enactment, many of the functions that 
still need to be performed can now be done more efficiently.
    As another example, the NVRA's language requires States to 
make voter rolls available for inspection by photocopying. As a 
result, a court of appeals has found that the State of Alabama 
can charge enormous amounts for printing copies of its voter 
rolls, as opposed to producing and delivering digital copies 
for a fraction of that cost.
    This is another example of how evolving technology has 
highlighted the need for updating the NVRA to better reflect 
the practical realities of today.
    Before concluding, I would also like to touch on the 
importance of reviewing and clarifying the NVRA when it comes 
to confirming a registrant's citizenship. The NVRA does not 
currently require an applicant to prove their citizenship 
beyond an attestation clause and a signature.
    One recent example of this which generated significant 
media headlines is the recent arrest of Ian Roberts, an illegal 
immigrant who successfully registered to vote in Maryland 
twice.
    Last week, Chairman Steil and I sent a letter to the 
Maryland State Board of elections seeking a detailed assessment 
of how a non-U.S. citizen was able to register to vote, and 
that letter was sent in furtherance of protecting the integrity 
of the franchise.
    The Committee will continue to review this case or any case 
happening across the country.
    Let me end with something I think we can all agree on: 
Improving the administration of our elections and ensuring 
voters' voices remain heard should be central to all of these 
discussions. Elections officials on the ground need access to 
the right tools and clear direction in order to do this.
    I look forward to further discussing ways to improve our 
system to bolster election integrity and efficiency across the 
country.
    I thank our witnesses for being here today, and I look 
forward to our conversation.
    With that, I yield to Ranking Member Sewell for an opening 
statement.
    [The prepared statement of Chair Lee follows:]

 PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIR OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS 
                           LAUREL LEE

    Today, the Committee on House Administration's Subcommittee 
on Elections will continue its oversight of Federal election 
law. 32 years ago, the National Voter Registration Act, or the 
NVRA, was passed with the goal of increasing voter 
registration, removing bureaucratic barriers, and ensuring 
States accurately maintain their voter rolls. Today we will 
discuss ways to strengthen the original goals of the NVRA. Let 
me begin with the great news: According to the Election 
Assistance Commission, today, over 86 percent of the eligible 
voting population are active registered voters. Contrast that 
to 1992--right before the law's passage--when registration was 
at 68 percent. That is a great thing for our democracy.
    As a former secretary of state, it is incumbent on us as 
policymakers to continuously seek feedback from election 
officials on the ground about what works, what can be improved, 
and how changes in technology and resources affect elections 
administration. Throughout my time as Florida's Secretary of 
State and as a Member of Congress, I have had many of those 
discussions--including with other secretaries of state.
    My goal with this hearing is to examine ways we can update 
the NVRA to strengthen voter confidence in our election laws 
and improve election administration. It is my view, and I 
believe that of countless other State and local election 
officials, that thoughtful review and modernization of the NVRA 
will improve elections administration and remove barriers to 
efficiency. The NVRA requires that States conduct a ``general 
program that makes a reasonable effort to remove the names of 
ineligible voters from the official list of eligible voters.'' 
This ambiguous language has left courts to issue broad rulings 
about what constitutes general and reasonable. This ultimately 
means States are not required, and sometimes not even 
permitted, to remove ineligible voters due to errors on their 
registration form, lack of U.S. citizenship, criminal 
conviction, mental incapacity, or other reasons consistent with 
State law for which a registration may be invalid.
    Election officials benefit from clear and unambiguous laws, 
which both help them to carry out their duties and ensure voter 
lists are accurate and up to date. We have had witnesses 
testify in this very room about how the NVRA's language 
actually prevents election officials from conducting robust 
list maintenance in the manner they think appropriate. Examples 
include the blackout period for list maintenance, and delays in 
removing voters who have moved to a new jurisdiction. In some 
cases, a voter who has moved must (1) request removal and (2) 
an election official must wait two general election cycles to 
remove the now ineligible voter. We must also recognize that 
modern technology has made certain provisions of the NVRA 
obsolete. While 30 years have passed since the NVRA's 
enactment, many of the functions that still need to be 
performed can now be done more efficiently.
    As another example, the NVRA's language requires States to 
make voter rolls available for inspection by ``photocopying.'' 
As a result, a Court of Appeals has found that the State of 
Alabama can charge enormous amounts for printing copies of its 
voter rolls, as opposed to producing and delivering digital 
copies for a fraction of the cost. This is one example of how 
evolving technology has highlighted the need for updating the 
NVRA to better reflect practical realities today.
    Before concluding, I would also like to touch on the 
importance of reviewing and the NVRA when it comes to 
confirming a registrant's citizenship. The NVRA does not 
currently require an applicant to prove their citizenship 
beyond an attestation clause and a signature. One eye-opening 
example of this--which generated significant media headlines--
is the recent arrest of Ian Roberts, an illegal immigrant who 
successfully registered to vote in Maryland--twice. Last week, 
Chairman Steil and I sent a letter to the Maryland State Board 
of Elections seeking a detailed assessment of how non-U.S. 
citizens are able to register to vote, in furtherance of 
protecting the integrity of the franchise. The Committee will 
continue to investigate cases of this happening across the 
country. Let me end with something I think we all can agree on: 
improving the administration of our elections and ensuring 
voters' voices remain heard should be central to any of these 
discussions. Election officials on the ground need access to 
the right tools and clear direction to do this. I look forward 
to further discussing ways to improve our system to bolster 
election integrity and efficiency in our country.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. TERRI A. SEWELL, RANKING MEMBER OF 
   THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                            ALABAMA

    Ms. Sewell. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    As Ranking Member of the Elections Subcommittee and the 
Representative of Alabama's civil rights district, there is 
nothing more important to me than ensuring that every eligible 
voter can register to vote and cast their ballot without facing 
unnecessary barriers. Far too often Americans have to jump 
through unnecessary hurdles to try to make their voices heard.
    Ever since the 2020 election, the American people have been 
bombarded with misinformation and disinformation about the 
integrity of our elections, lied to about the rampant voter 
fraud, and misled by false claims that the 2020 election was 
stolen.
    To make matters worse, State legislatures have used every 
tool in their toolkit at their disposal to enact new barriers 
to the ballot box. Just this year, 47 State legislatures 
attempted to pass 469 restrictive bills to make it even harder 
to vote. Many of these new laws were created to fuel the false 
narrative that our elections are not secure.
    Today, we are here to talk about the potential updates to 
the National Voter Registration Act, a law passed in 1993 with 
the goal to increase voter participation.
    The NVRA is a critical component to our Federal voting 
legislation, and it provides vital access and protections to 
voters as well as guardrails for election officials to conduct 
voter maintenance.
    I believe that proper voter list maintenance is an integral 
part of an election administration, but too often we have seen 
anti-democratic purges of eligible voters conducted in the name 
of valid list maintenance.
    An extremist will stop at nothing to try to convince the 
American people that noncitizens and dead people are voting. 
For example, in my home State of Alabama, our Secretary of 
State proudly proclaimed one day, day one of his 
administration, that he was removing Alabama from the 
Electronic Voter Registration Information Center, or ERIC, a 
nonprofit, nonpartisan membership organization of States that 
has proven to be one of the most effective tools for helping 
election officials maintain accurate rolls.
    Unfortunately, our Secretary of State gave into conspiracy 
theories and withdrew Alabama from that organization with no 
plans for how he was going to replace that level of voter list 
maintenance information.
    To make matters worse, Secretary Allen was sued in the fall 
of 2024 after he attempted to conduct an illegal voter purge 
program ahead of the 2024 election, one that threatened to deny 
thousands of qualified citizens in Alabama their right to vote.
    As we discuss any potential updates to the NVRA, we must 
ensure that they are balanced and that we ensure that we 
balance protecting access to the variety of voter registration 
opportunities and ensuring eligible voters are not purged from 
the rolls with proper voter list maintenance.
    We all want cleaner voter rolls, and that requires a 
thoughtful and deliberate approach.
    In July, this Committee held a hearing reviewing voter list 
maintenance standards, during which one of the Republican 
witnesses stated that, quote: ``It has never been easier in the 
United States to register to vote as it is today.''
    It is true that it is easier to register to vote today than 
it was in 1993 when the NVRA was passed. However, at the same 
time, in that hearing we heard from Mary Kay Helling of North 
Carolina about just how many barriers she faced in trying to 
remain on the voter rolls. Despite being a lawfully registered 
voter, Mary Kay told us the story of how long it took her to be 
counted to stay on the voter registration rolls.
    I say all this to say that while there are many ways in 
which we can update the NVRA, we must first acknowledge the 
fact that there is no widespread voter fraud and that the 2020 
election was secure and that too many voters still face 
barriers to the ballot box.
    In fact, instead of making sure every voter can register to 
vote and cast their ballot, the President and this 
administration continue to undermine voter confidence in our 
elections while attempting to circumvent the Constitution and 
erect barriers to voting.
    Voters in Alabama, like everywhere else, continue to face 
many barriers to the ballot box than voters in other States, 
and that is not democracy at work.
    No one benefits when eligible voters are unlawfully purged 
from the rolls. Every effort should be made to ensure before 
anyone is deprived of their right to vote that all laws are 
followed and that the person being removed is a person who 
should be removed.
    I look forward to the hearing today, and I do look forward 
to talking about some updates that we can have, like automatic 
voter registration and same-day registration in States like 
Alabama which will not have it unless we actually mandate it 
nationally.
    I want to commend the Chairwoman for having today's hearing 
and thank all the witnesses for being here. I welcome your 
testimony. Thanks.
    [The prepared statement of Ranking Member Sewell follows:]

  PREPARED STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
                   ELECTIONS TERRI A. SEWELL

    As Ranking Member of the Elections Subcommittee and the 
Representative of Alabama's civil rights district, there is 
nothing more important to me than ensuring that every eligible 
voter can register to vote and cast their ballot without facing 
unnecessary barriers. Far too often Americans have to jump 
through unnecessary hurdles to try to make their voices heard.
    Ever since the 2020 election, the American people have been 
bombarded with misinformation and disinformation about the 
integrity of our elections, lied to about the rampant voter 
fraud, and misled by false claims that the 2020 election was 
stolen. To make matters worse, State legislatures have used 
every tool in their toolkit at their disposal to enact new 
barriers to the ballot box. Just this year, 47 State 
legislatures attempted to pass 469 restrictive bills to make it 
even harder to vote. Many of these new laws were created to 
fuel the false narrative that our elections are not secure.
    Today, we are here to talk about the potential updates to 
the National Voter Registration Act, a law passed in 1993 with 
the goal to increase voter participation. The NVRA is a 
critical component to our Federal voting legislation, and it 
provides vital access and protections to voters as well as 
guardrails for election officials to conduct voter maintenance. 
I believe that proper voter list maintenance is an integral 
part of an election administration, but too often we have seen 
anti democratic purges of eligible voters conducted in the name 
of valid list maintenance.
    An extremist will stop at nothing to try to convince the 
American people that noncitizens and dead people are voting. 
For example, in my home State of Alabama, our Secretary of 
State proudly proclaimed one day, day one of his 
administration, that he was removing Alabama from the 
Electronic Voter Registration Information Center, or ERIC, a 
nonprofit, nonpartisan membership organization of States that 
has proven to be one of the most effective tools for helping 
election officials maintain accurate rolls. Unfortunately, our 
Secretary of State gave into conspiracy theories and withdrew 
Alabama from that organization with no plans for how he was 
going to replace that level of voter list maintenance 
information. To make matters worse, Secretary Allen was sued in 
the fall of 2024 after he attempted to conduct an illegal voter 
purge program ahead of the 2024 election, one that threatened 
to deny thousands of qualified citizens in Alabama their right 
to vote.
    As we discuss any potential updates to the NVRA, we must 
ensure that they are balanced and that we ensure that we 
balance protecting access to the variety of voter registration 
opportunities and ensuring eligible voters are not purged from 
the rolls with proper voter list maintenance. We all want 
cleaner voter rolls, and that requires a thoughtful and 
deliberate approach. In July, this Committee held a hearing 
reviewing voter list maintenance standards, during which one of 
the Republican witnesses stated that, quote: ``It has never 
been easier in the United States to register to vote as it is 
today.''
    It is true that it is easier to register to vote today than 
it was in 1993 when the NVRA was passed. However, at the same 
time, in that hearing we heard from Mary Kay Helling of North 
Carolina about just how many barriers she faced in trying to 
remain on the voter rolls. Despite being a lawfully registered 
voter, Mary Kay told us the story of how long it took her to be 
counted to stay on the voter registration rolls. I say all this 
to say that while there are many ways in which we can update 
the NVRA, we must first acknowledge the fact that there is no 
widespread voter fraud and that the 2020 election was secure 
and that too many voters still face barriers to the ballot box. 
In fact, instead of making sure every voter can register to 
vote and cast their ballot, the President and this 
administration continue to undermine voter confidence in our 
elections while attempting to circumvent the Constitution and 
erect barriers to voting. Voters in Alabama, like everywhere 
else, continue to face many barriers to the ballot box than 
voters in other States, and that is not democracy at work.
    No one benefits when eligible voters are unlawfully purged 
from the rolls. Every effort should be made to ensure before 
anyone is deprived of their right to vote that all laws are 
followed and that the person being removed is a person who 
should be removed. I look forward to the hearing today, and I 
do look forward to talking about some updates that we can have, 
like automatic voter registration and same day registration in 
States like Alabama which will not have it unless we actually 
mandate it nationally.

    Chair Lee. Without objection, all other Members' opening 
statements will be made part of the hearing record if they are 
submitted to the Committee clerk by 5 p.m. today.
    Today we have one witness panel. I will now introduce our 
witnesses.
    First, we have Mark Braden, of counsel at Baker and 
Hostetler LLP. Then we have Professor Michael Morley, a 
professor of law and the faculty director of the Election Law 
Center at Florida State University College of Law. Finally, we 
have Sophia Lin Lakin, the director of the ACLU's Voting Rights 
Projects.
    Each witness will have 5 minutes to provide an opening 
statement.
    I now recognize Mr. Braden for the purpose of giving an 
opening statement.

STATEMENTS OF MR. MARK BRADEN, OF COUNSEL, BAKER HOSTETLER; MR. 
 MICHAEL MORLEY, FACULTY DIRECTOR OF THE ELECTION LAW CENTER, 
  SHEILA M. MCDEVITT PROFESSOR OF LAW; AND SOPHIA LIN LAKIN, 
DIRECTOR, VOTING RIGHTS PROJECT, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION

                    STATEMENT OF MARK BRADEN

    Mr. Braden. I am looking at this room and I see a couple of 
people that I used to work for, Bill Thomas and our rocket 
scientist Vern Ehlers.
    I have spent 50 years working on election-related law 
questions, and it is certainly a pleasure to be invited to 
testify for this Committee on an interest in an area where I 
have basically spent my whole professional life on.
    I used to be counsel to the Ohio Elections Commission, the 
Secretary of State. I used to work for the RNC. Then I was in 
private practice for a long time as outside counsel to this 
Committee on election law matters and contests.
    This Committee has always been composed of very serious 
individuals. Some of the most prominent individuals in the 
history of the Congress have served on this Committee. Many 
former Speakers of the House. In fact, most recently, there was 
a Republican Speaker who used to be a staff director of this 
Committee, Kevin McCarthy.
    This is a very distinguished Committee, and I am very happy 
to have the opportunity to be here.
    There was a time when election laws were viewed as an area 
of cooperation between the two political parties. If you look 
back at history, the most important election changes in my 
lifetime was the 1964 Voting Rights Act, which was supported by 
a majority of Republicans and a majority of Democrats. It had 
Democrat and Republican sponsors.
    All the revisions to that Act received substantial 
bipartisan support. HAVA to a large degree had bipartisan 
support. We have even had campaign financing regulation, H.R. 
5010, that came out of this Committee, that was a bipartisan 
bill.
    Unfortunately, the Motor Voter bill was not. It ended up 
being passed on a partisan line.
    What I would suggest to you is the value of cooperation 
between the two political parties, because as a starting point 
that cooperation is vital to the confidence in the process.
    Two, as you have mentioned, there are really basically two 
things we are talking about here, which is increasing the level 
of voter registration and improving the quality of the 
registration lists. I have no dispute with the notion that the 
Motor Voter increased the number of people registered to vote. 
You have more people registering to vote post-Motor Voter.
    Of course, there is a balance there. What Motor Voter did 
was invite into the registration business a whole variety of 
locations where it was secondary to their principal purpose. By 
definition, by putting voter registration activities in 
locations other than county clerks, secretaries of state, and 
other election officers, you are going to have people who have 
other things to do. Then, when they get to voter registration, 
they will have to transmit that to the election authorities.
    Those two present problems. I would say that one can look 
at Motor Voter and be comfortable that it has increased the 
number of people registered to vote. I am not so sure you can 
be sure what its impact is on the actual voter turnout.
    Now, the quality of voter State lists is a mixed bag. Some 
States have very high-quality voter lists and some do not. This 
Committee needs to continue to be concerned about the quality 
of the voter lists because of the changes in our system.
    Our system is much more mail-centric than it used to be. 
The mail systems all arise from a central core. The spine of 
that process are voter lists. If you have bad voter lists, then 
you have bad voting processes. We need to be more concerned 
about the quality of voter lists than we might have been in the 
past.
    The additional big change has been in the number of people 
who live in the country who are resident aliens.
    Now, I personally have no knowledge of any significant 
number of nonresident aliens or illegal aliens, resident aliens 
or illegal aliens voting. I absolutely have knowledge that 
there are many people concerned about this issue. I have no 
doubt that it occasionally occurs.
    We need to be concerned about the lists. Whether it is 
simply a question of perception or reality, frankly, makes no 
difference.
    We need to have an election system with two prime 
directives: one, that the winner wins, the person with the most 
vote wins; and, two, that rational supporters of the loser 
believe the winner won.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Braden follows:]

               PREPARED STATEMENT OF MARK BRADEN
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chair Lee. Mr. Braden, with that you are out of time.
    Mr. Braden. OK.
    Chair Lee. We will go back to further discussion during 
questions.
    I now recognize Professor Morley for the purpose of giving 
an opening statement.

                  STATEMENT OF MICHAEL MORLEY

    Mr. Morley. Thank you very much. It is an honor to testify 
before this Committee, and I would be happy to assist the 
Committee's important work however I can.
    A sound electoral system is based on three principles.
    First, all eligible voters must have a reasonable 
opportunity to safely cast their ballots and have them counted 
without facing substantial burdens.
    Second, the system must ensure accurate results by 
minimizing the possibility of mistake, irregularity, 
illegality, or fraud.
    Third, the system should bolster public confidence in the 
integrity of the election's results.
    The NVRA and HAVA have promoted voter registration by 
requiring States to offer a range of convenient ways to 
register. They have also enhanced the system's accuracy and 
boosted public confidence by requiring election officials to 
ensure the accuracy of their voter rolls.
    Over the years, opportunities for further improvement have 
become apparent. There are three main types of issues this 
Committee could address.
    First, the NVRA allows States to seek only information 
which is, quote, ``necessary to determine a voter's eligibility 
and administer the election process.'' The NVRA also specifies 
registration forms shall require voters to attest under penalty 
of perjury that they satisfy the State's eligibility 
requirements, including U.S. citizenship.
    Several courts have held that because applicants swear they 
are citizens, it is presumptively unnecessary and therefore 
illegal for States to require them to submit additional 
information concerning their eligibility or citizenship status.
    To be sure, the extent to which noncitizen voting occurs 
has been exaggerated in many public debates. When States have 
identified potential cases of noncitizens being registered to 
vote, they invariably involve a fraction of 1 percent of all 
voter registration from the jurisdiction.
    In a Nation with approximately 28 million noncitizen 
residents, however, it is reasonable for the public to expect 
steps to be taken to ensure noncitizens are not inadvertently 
added to the voter registration rolls.
    A noncitizen might be registered, particularly through a 
lawful transaction at a motor vehicle agency or other 
Government office where voter registration is a potential part 
of the process, for a variety of reasons, such as scrivener's 
errors, language barriers, errors in automatic voter 
registration systems, erroneous assistance, and 
misunderstandings. HAVA allows a person to register even if 
they lack both a Social Security number and a driver's license.
    Even a few hundred or thousand votes can impact the outcome 
of the election, as we from Florida know well as a result of 
Bush v. Gore, to say nothing, of course, of State-level races.
    The NVRA's necessity standard seems unnecessarily 
stringent. The statute should be amended to instead allow 
States to request information reasonably related to confirming 
an applicant's eligibility.
    Second, relatedly, the NVRA and HAVA do not currently 
appear to contemplate the possibility that voter registration 
records will erroneously be added to the database.
    The NVRA currently allows records to be removed only when 
circumstances change. A person must ask for their registration 
to be canceled, be convicted of a crime or declared 
incompetent, move, or die.
    The NVRA does not expressly provide for the removal of 
records of people who were ineligible at the outset and should 
not have been registered in the first place.
    This Committee should amend the NVRA to allow election 
officials to remove ineligible voters, as well as people who 
have subsequently registered to vote in another State after 
affording them due process through notice and an opportunity to 
submit evidence.
    Likewise, when States conduct their NVRA-mandated list 
maintenance programs, they should be required to identify 
voters who are ineligible on any basis rather than only people 
who have died or moved as the NVRA currently requires.
    Finally, the NVRA and HAVA fail to define some key terms. 
For example, the NVRA prohibits election officials from 
implementing a program to, quote, ``systematically remove the 
names of ineligible voters'' during the 90-day so-called quiet 
period before a Federal election.
    This Committee could clarify that the term ``removal'' does 
not include shifting a voter to the inactive list. A voter who 
was recently moved to an inactive list may still vote in an 
impending election so long as they confirm their identity, 
address citizenship or eligibility, depending on what the 
concern is, including at the polling place.
    The Committee could likewise specify that 
``systematically'' does not include measures that election 
officials take in response to information suggesting that 
particular voters might be ineligible.
    I see my time is drawing to an end, so I will simply say 
other terms in the statute, such as ``uniform and 
nondiscriminatory'' are also undefined, and courts have defined 
them in a variety of ways that this Committee could provide 
definitions for as well.
    Thank you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Morley follows:]

              PREPARED STATEMENT OF MICHAEL MORLEY
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    Chair Lee. Thank you, Professor Morley.
    I now recognize Ms. Lakin for the purpose of giving an 
opening statement.

                 STATEMENT OF SOPHIA LIN LAKIN

    Ms. Lakin. Chairwoman Lee, Ranking Member Sewell, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to 
testify today. I am Sophia Lakin, director of the ACLU's Voting 
Rights Project.
    The National Voter Registration Act is a landmark piece of 
bipartisan legislation. Since Congress enacted it over 30 years 
ago it has transformed voter registration in this country for 
the better.
    The NVRA makes registration easier for eligible Americans 
by requiring registration opportunities via the DMVs, public 
assistance agencies, and by mail.
    It has been an extraordinary success. Today more than 50 
million Americans register or update their registration through 
NVRA-established processes every year.
    As the NVRA expanded access, it also promoted more accurate 
voter rolls. In doing so, it struck a careful balance in 
creating processes for list maintenance while establishing 
critical safeguards to ensure that eligible voters are not 
wrongly removed.
    We all want secure, free, and fair elections. That means 
both maintaining accurate rolls and ensuring eligible voters 
can cast ballots that count.
    One of these central safeguards is requiring States to 
complete systematic list maintenance programs no later than 90 
days before Federal elections. This prevents last-minute purges 
that leave voters little time to discover they have been 
removed and get back on the rolls in time to cast a ballot that 
will count.
    States have ample tools to keep their rolls accurate, and 
they are using them. Elections officials removed more than 21 
million voters from the rolls in the last 2 years through 
routine, lawful maintenance. At the same time, almost 1 million 
voters have received NVRA confirmation notices asking if they 
have moved, responded that they hadn't, and were properly 
registered and kept on the rolls. The system works.
    Too often officials launch aggressive, sloppy, or poorly 
timed purges that sweep in large swaths of eligible voters. 
These programs often rely on outdated data, dubious 
methodologies, and inflammatory claims about rampant fraud that 
does not exist.
    For example, in 2024, just 84 days before the election, 
Alabama's Secretary of State announced a purge targeting 
alleged noncitizens using a process he admitted would sweep in 
naturalized citizens. A Federal court stopped it, and it was 
clear right off the bat that well over half of the targeted 
voters were eligible citizens. Most of these wrongly targeted 
were people of color.
    In Virginia, that same year, the Governor ordered a purge 
based on DMV data up to 20 years old, data that failed to 
reflect voters' subsequent naturalization. A Federal court 
found that many removed were eligible citizens who were never 
even informed that they had been purged.
    In Texas in 2019, State officials claimed nearly 100,000 
registered voters were noncitizens. Within a week that number 
collapsed. In Harris County alone, more than half the flagged 
voters were confirmed naturalized citizens, and an audit of the 
remaining names found no noncitizens at all.
    A Federal court found that Texas had, quote, ``created a 
mess'' meant to, quote, ``intimidate the least powerful among 
us.''
    Despite the NVRA's success, the same voices who foment 
disinformation and undermine voter confidence seek to undermine 
the careful balance the NVRA strikes, whether by erecting new 
registration barriers or weakening safeguards that protect 
voters from erroneous removal.
    One example is the so-called SAVE Act which would require 
every eligible American to show up in person with documents 
like a passport just to register to vote. This and any similar 
effort could disenfranchise tens of millions of eligible 
voters, Republicans and Democrats alike.
    Instead, I urge Congress to return to its bipartisan 
tradition of strengthening our voting system by advancing 
measures that expand access and improve accuracy, like online, 
same-day, and automatic voter registration, all of which have 
been proposed in the Freedom to Vote Act, and to provide 
election officials with the stable Federal funding they need to 
administer elections effectively.
    The integrity of our elections is not threatened by 
widespread noncitizen voting, a problem that simply does not 
exist. It is threatened by unnecessary aggressive purges that 
strike eligible voters from the rolls and by barriers that 
prevent eligible Americans from registering in the first place.
    Congress should reject measures that would weaken the 
NVRA's protections and instead strengthen the systems that make 
our democracy work.
    Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Lakin follows:]

             PREPARED STATEMENT OF SOPHIA LIN LAKIN
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chair Lee. Thank you, Ms. Lakin.
    I will begin our questions today, followed by the Ranking 
Member. I now recognize myself for the purpose of questioning 
our witnesses.
    Professor Morley, I would like to begin by going back to 
you. You touched on something there at the end of your 
testimony that related to other terms in the NVRA that you have 
observed to be interpreted differently or inconsistently by the 
courts. Would you elaborate, please?
    Mr. Morley. Yes. Thank you very much, Chairwoman.
    The NVRA and HAVA in various places require uniform and 
nondiscriminatory treatment of voters but have left those two 
key terms, ``uniform and nondiscriminatory,'' undefined.
    There have been cases in which election officials have 
received information about particular voters suggesting either 
they were ineligible or there was some other concern with 
regard to a particular group of voters and subjected them to 
additional information requests, attempting to confirm their 
eligibility, and this was held to violate the ``uniform and 
nondiscriminatory'' requirements in HAVA and the NVRA because 
certain voters were being asked for information, or certain 
voters were being subjected to additional procedures to confirm 
their eligibility, rather than all voters, and so they were 
enjoined.
    In part, I suggest that the term ``uniform'' specify that 
similarly situated voters need to be treated similarly, but 
nothing in the statute is meant to preclude election officials 
from confirming the eligibility of a particular voter or 
particular voters if there is reason to believe that there 
might be a concern about their status.
    Likewise, the term ``nondiscriminatory,'' in order to be 
given an independent definition, an independent meaning, not 
just being redundant, should be defined in terms of the 
Constitution's prohibitions on discrimination against various 
groups of voters, the 15th Amendment, the 19th Amendment, et 
cetera.
    Thank you very much.
    Chair Lee. Thank you, Professor Morley.
    Mr. Braden, I would like to go back to something you 
touched on during your testimony as well, and it was the notion 
that as mail voting, voting by mail, becomes more and more 
common, that the quality and accuracy of lists is all the more 
important.
    Would you please elaborate on the points you were making 
during that part of your testimony and why in today's date that 
the accuracy of those lists is so important?
    Mr. Braden. Well, mail voting is pieces of mail go out to 
lists. If the list is not any good, the people being asked to 
vote or trying to vote by mail will be bad. It is not more 
complicated than that.
    Mail voting is definitely a more dangerous process for the 
security of the ballot process than in-person voting, there is 
just no question about that, because you do not have the 
secrecy of the ballot, you do not have a polling place where 
you can be sure there is not undue influence or there is not 
coercion. By voting from mail we get rid of those safeguards.
    Then we are dependent upon the U.S. mail. The State of 
California sends out million of ballots. What percentage of 
first-class mail does not get delivered or does not get 
delivered timely?
    I have had a difficult time figuring out what that number 
is. I have seen everything from half a percent to 4 percent.
    What does that mean? That means tens of thousands of 
ballots in California sent--hopefully to registered voters who 
are qualified to vote--will not make an appearance and will not 
get counted. That is a big problem.
    There is a reason why almost all the other Western-style 
democracies do not use mail voting. They only use mail voting 
for absentee. A mail voting system has problems.
    Now, the President of the United States issued an executive 
order attempting to ban mail voting. It did not appear to me 
why he had authority to do that. I do not believe I can figure 
out where that authority is.
    I do think that authority resides here with the Congress 
and/or with the State. I am realistic. I do not think you can 
politically make that happen, as much as I would like.
    Chair Lee. Thank you, Mr. Braden.
    Professor Morley, back to you. If you would tell us--you 
touched on the concept of the blackout period and ways in which 
you believe the blackout period could be improved. Would you 
specify what you think we could do as Congress to improve the 
clarity or process or timing of the blackout period?
    Mr. Morley. Thank you very much.
    One of the issues which I had already raised is clarifying 
what does removal mean, right? Congress' original goal was to 
prevent a voter from being removed from the list at the very 
last minute. They had no notice, they no opportunity to prove 
their eligibility to vote.
    One potential issue is, is the current blackout period too 
long? Currently, because it is based on each Federal election, 
primary elections is treated separate from the general 
elections. In every even-numbered year, 180 days of that year 
is a blackout period. It is literally illegal for election 
officials for half of the year, every Federal election year, to 
engage in a program to confirm that their rolls are----
    Chair Lee. Thank you, Professor Morley. I asked you a 
question at the end of my 5 minutes. We are out of time.
    At this point, I now recognize Ranking Member Sewell for 5 
minutes for the purpose of questioning our witnesses.
    Ms. Sewell. Ms. Lakin, I know that Section 8 of the NVRA 
basically gives States a certain number of days to finalize 
their voter list maintenance before the primaries and before a 
general election. I think it is 90 days.
    You mentioned in your testimony that far too often that 
States take advantage of this voter protection by conducting 
aggressive voter purges to remove certain groups of citizens 
from voting.
    Can you talk to us about the ways in which the NVRA's 
protections have been used to stop improper voter purges?
    Ms. Lakin. Yes, absolutely.
    We have, unfortunately, seen overzealous list maintenance 
efforts often framed as simple enforcement of existing voter--
of requirements. In practice they rely on outdated data, fraud 
methodologies, and bad proxies for eligibility.
    For example, States often use Government databases 
indicating that someone is not a citizen, but that data can be 
decades old, and critically can fail to reflect someone's 
naturalization.
    We have seen this time and time again. Unfortunately, we 
have needed to have concrete protections for this. For example, 
the 90-day quiet period that you were mentioning ensures that 
this type of database systemic list maintenance is not 
occurring so close to the election such that voters are not 
able to get notice of a problem, that they have been removed, 
and then subsequently fix the problem and therefore be able to 
vote.
    Ms. Sewell. You know, you have mentioned my State--I did in 
my opening remarks as well--the fact that my Secretary of State 
conducted a voter purge of lists. It turns out that half of the 
voters that were on there were actually eligible voters.
    Can you talk to us a little bit about how the National 
Voter Registration Act has protections against that kind of 
illegal purging?
    Ms. Lakin. Well, exactly it is the case. You gave the 
example of Alabama. I mentioned a similar situation in 
Virginia, a similar situation in many other States in my 
written testimony.
    Because of this quiet period that is in place, individuals, 
organizations, civil rights organizations, the United States 
Department of Justice at the time actually went into court to 
sue and say, actually, you cannot engage in this kind of 
systematic list maintenance during this period of time and it 
needs to be halted.
    That was good for voters because, as I mentioned, these 
particular flawed, aggressive purges inevitably flagged 
eligible voters, sometimes a very substantial number.
    Ms. Sewell. Like in Alabama.
    Ms. Lakin. Absolutely.
    Ms. Sewell. Now, this hearing is about how we can update 
the National Voter Registration Act. Can you suggest--I think 
that access to the ballot box is critically important. Frankly, 
all examples you gave also suggest that what we really should 
be focusing on is to make sure that people have access to the 
ballot box and not barriers and voter suppression.
    Can you talk a little bit about what kinds of updates you 
would do if you were sitting where we are sitting.
    Ms. Lakin. Absolutely. I completely agree. We should be 
focused on ensuring that voters are able--eligible voters, 
every single one is able to cast a ballot that is counted.
    Instead of focusing on policies that potentially could 
disenfranchise millions of voters, we should be focused on 
making it easier for Americans to vote with measures like same-
day registration, online voter registration, automatic voter 
registration.
    I would also add that Congress should be prioritizing 
providing funding for election officials to be able to 
administer their elections.
    Ms. Sewell. I could not agree more. We need to definitely 
give more funding for election procedures and administration.
    I think that there are eight States that actually have vote 
by mail. From what I can tell, Oregon is one of them. They have 
84 percent returns of their voting. I know that in this hearing 
there has been an indictment against vote by mail, but I was 
wondering if you could add your take on this.
    Ms. Lakin. Yes, absolutely. Mail voting has been a critical 
form of voting for many, many voters who otherwise it is very, 
very difficult for them to be able to cast a ballot, including 
voters with disabilities, voters who live in rural areas, and 
have been used increasingly by voters of color and the like to 
be able to exercise their right to vote.
    We have not seen problems with this in great numbers and 
certainly nothing to justify a mass removal of this really 
critical tool to vote.
    Ms. Sewell. Absolutely.
    I just think that at the end of the day there are updates 
that we can make. Madam Chairwoman, I look forward to working 
with you on trying to make sure that we have a balance between 
making sure that we are providing access and at the same time 
making sure that no one who is ineligible cannot vote.
    Before I yield back, I want to ask for unanimous consent to 
enter into the record a statement from the League of Women 
Voters, which highlights that the NVRA must maintain its power 
to protect voters and facilitate voter registration.
    Chair Lee. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The League of Women Voters statement referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]   

    Chair Lee. I now recognize the Representative from 
Illinois, Mrs. Miller, for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Miller. Thank you, Chairwoman Lee and Chairman Steil, 
for convening this hearing on the NVRA, also known as the Motor 
Vehicle Act.
    As a Member of Congress from a State that has a long 
history of election fraud and irregularities--that would be 
Illinois--I am deeply concerned about the integrity of our 
elections, both in my State and nationally.
    As we discussed in a previous hearing, States like Illinois 
systematically refuse to establish standards to maintain clean 
voter rolls and prevent noncitizens from voting.
    As States give driver's licenses and CDLs to noncitizens 
and illegal aliens at record rates, I believe that NVRA's 
safeguards against these noncitizens being registered to vote 
are inadequate and need significant reforms.
    Congress must act to update the NVRA to account for States 
that refuse to follow the law, and I appreciate the opportunity 
to speak with our witnesses about this critical issue.
    First, Professor Morley, this past July our full Committee 
held a hearing on how the NVRA can restrict best practices for 
clean voter rolls. In today's hearing, we want to look at which 
parts of the NVRA should be amended to bring greater confidence 
to our elections. The case of Ian Roberts makes this all the 
more pressing.
    In your opinion, what should be our highest priority in 
fixing Motor Voter?
    Mr. Morley. Thank you very much, Congresswoman.
    Specifically with regard to list maintenance, as I 
mentioned before, one of the main reforms that the Committee 
could consider making to the NVRA would be expanding the list 
of criteria that election officials are required to use when 
conducting the federally mandated list maintenance. As of right 
now, they are only required to identify voters who have died 
or, I believe, who have moved.
    There are a variety of circumstances under which a person 
could be ineligible to vote; particularly they have registered 
somewhere else; they are not a citizen, so should not have been 
put on the list to begin with.
    The NVRA could be amended in order to require election 
officials during this already mandated list maintenance to 
identify voters who are ineligible for any reason rather than 
just two particular reasons, as the statute is currently 
drafted.
    One other thing is to improve the quality of information. 
This Committee could consider expanding the databases to which 
election officials are required to interact. This was something 
more on the HAVA end than on the NVRA end. Currently, HAVA 
requires election officials to enter into agreements with their 
State motor vehicle agency in order to exchange data. They also 
require agreements with the Social Security Administration to 
exchange data.
    There is at least one major source of information, the 
Federal SAVE database, which has citizenship information. The 
State of Florida was actually recently in litigation with the 
Federal Government to try to expand access to that.
    This Committee could look at the possibility of either 
requiring States to enter into agreements to receive 
information from the SAVE database, or potentially even other 
databases to the extent that there are other agencies that have 
information concerning citizenship that could be shared with 
States.
    Alternatively, cross-checking against such databases could 
be part of the mandatory list maintenance process that States 
are required to engage in on an ongoing basis.
    When election officials are updating their databases, they 
are not looking to throw eligible voters off the rolls. To the 
extent this Committee can make better quality information 
available to them, to the extent this Committee could require 
the Government to share citizenship-related data with them, 
that will both help officials remove ineligible voters while 
protecting vulnerable voters, while protecting people from 
erroneously being flagged as potentially ineligible.
    Mrs. Miller. Thank you. Those are very helpful suggestions.
    Mr. Braden, when first considered, Motor Voter was written 
to remove barriers and facilitate voter registration. This, 
unfortunately, led some States to remove verification 
requirements for the answers that applicants provided.
    Just this year, the Maryland State Board of Elections found 
that an illegal immigrant named Ian Roberts successfully 
registered to vote and requested absentee ballots in three 
different elections.
    Would verification requirements such as documentary proof 
of citizenship have prevented Ian Roberts from illegally 
voting?
    Mr. Braden. The answer to that is probably yes. It depends 
on the details. We have a variety of technologies available to 
us that we are not using which this Committee could statutorily 
encourage or require.
    Mrs. Miller. Thank you very much, and I yield back.
    Chair Lee. Thank you.
    I now recognize the Ranking Member of the full Committee, 
Mr. Morelle, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Thank the witnesses for being here and for your interest in 
this important subject. It is an important subject.
    I had an opening statement. I apologize for being delayed 
with other matters. I will just submit that to the record, if I 
might.

 PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH MORELLE, RANKING MEMBER OF 
 THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE 
                         FROM NEW YORK 
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    Mr. Morelle. I do want to just start. Fundamentally, this 
voting rights legislation which we are talking about, when it 
was signed into law, President Clinton said: ``The principle 
behind the legislation is clear: Voting should be about 
discerning the will of the majority''--and, presumably, of the 
people--``not about testing the administrative capacity of a 
citizen.''
    It is sort of interesting that the whole notion of this is 
about making sure we make it as easy as possible for citizens 
to be able to discharge their rights to be able to vote. It is 
fundamental to what we do as Americans, fundamental to our 
democracy.
    I want to continue to send the message that American 
elections are secure. State election officials, local election 
officials, I have not found one Democrat or Republican who is 
not so devoted to the work that they do and recognize the 
serious role that they play in making sure that the democracy 
functions.
    There is no one who wants people voting fraudulently. I 
will say, the degree to which we look behind every tree and 
behind everything and make assumptions that fraud occurs I find 
somewhat astonishing. I mean, I feel like there is a boogeyman 
everywhere, and the obsession with it, the fascination with 
it--or, if you are more cynical, the darkness behind it--is 
really about limiting access that people might have to vote.
    I note, for instance, I was recently with a number of 
Members from Oregon where voting by mail has been the case for 
decades. There are no widespread accusations that in Oregon 
elections are not fair. Almost everyone votes by mail. I think 
that is true in the State of Washington. It is true in the 
State of Colorado. It is largely true in the State of Arizona. 
It is all of a sudden they say, oh, we have to be careful, all 
these people are voting fraudulently.
    No one can ever identify anyone who is. Even when it comes 
to the notion that undocumented folks are voting in massive 
numbers to corrupt elections, it is extraordinary, because you 
cannot find any evidence that it happens.
    I remember as a kid, say, have you ever seen a pink 
elephant? Say, well, there is no such thing as pink elephants. 
I do not know. Have you ever seen one? Somehow that proves that 
there are pink elephants, the fact that no one has ever seen 
one. It is kind of the same thing.
    We should just remember that the point of this is to make 
it easy for people to use technology, use the mail.
    Frankly, we file taxes by mail, that is one of the most 
important things we do, and people verify it. There are a 
hundred things we do by mail where no one has ever suggested we 
should go--could you imagine if we made every single American 
file their taxes in person at a registrar somewhere in our 
local county? No one would even consider it. It would be 
absurd.
    Having said that, mail is safe. Frankly, some of the 
arguments for doing some of the things that we have talked 
about sound awfully reminiscent of the 1930's and 1940's and 
1950's where people were given simple literacy tests before 
they could vote. It turned out it was like reciting word for 
word the United States Constitution or guessing the number of 
jelly beans in a jar, because it was really certain people we 
did not want to vote. I would certainly hope that is not what 
we are doing.
    I would always join with my colleagues in efforts to make 
sure that we make clear that there is no double voting, that we 
know who is voting, but to the greatest extent possible make 
sure that every single American uses not only their right, but 
their God-given inalienable right to be able to cast a vote.
    I do have a question. I am sorry I am down to my last 
minute, but I wanted to get that off my chest.
    I appreciate what you said, Mr. Braden, about your belief 
that there is no Presidential authority to use an executive 
order. I do not want to misquote you. I think that is what you 
said, that you thought it was Congress as well.
    Mr. Braden. That is correct. I do not believe there is.
    Mr. Morelle. Yes. Thank you all for your testimony, for 
being here.
    Ms. Lakin, would you agree with that as well, that it is 
the States and the Congress have the authority, but not the 
President?
    Ms. Lakin. Yes, absolutely. The Constitution is clear on 
that score. Only Congress and the States can set the rules for 
elections. The President has no role in that.
    Mr. Morelle. Mr. Morley, would you concur, or do you have a 
different opinion?
    Mr. Morley. I agree.
    Mr. Morelle. Yes, thank you.
    Let me--well, I am running out of time. Five minutes goes 
by so quickly, does not it, Madam Chair? I will follow up with 
our witnesses.
    Again, very much appreciate you being here and appreciate 
the hearing and all the good work. Thanks so much.
    I yield back.
    Chair Lee. Thank you.
    I now recognize the Representative from Texas, Ms. Johnson, 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Johnson. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
    I am so happy that we are having this hearing today. Voting 
is a fundamental and most important right that we have in this 
country.
    I come from--I hail from the State of Texas and we have had 
our own fair share of challenges in voting. I can see by the 
expressions on your face that you all agree that voting and the 
access to the ballot is particularly difficult in Texas.
    I want to acknowledge none of us want voter fraud. I do not 
think any Republican or Democrat or anyone in this country 
supports voter fraud. Only those who are eligible to vote 
should be able to vote.
    Just like my colleague was just saying, there is no 
evidence that there is widespread voter fraud, and that 
certainly has been the case in Texas.
    I want to reframe this notion of election integrity. 
Election integrity should be about making sure, ensuring that 
every eligible voter has the right to vote, not focusing on 
making sure that people who do not have access to vote vote.
    It is the reverse of thought. It is the reverse of 
priority. It is making sure that those in rural Texas can get 
access to a ballot box; making sure that those that do not have 
access to transportation can get to the ballot box; making sure 
that those who have disabilities or who are just working can 
get to the ballot box; making sure that young people can get 
registered to vote; that they are not disenfranchised from 
that.
    Our rules and our system of laws seem to focus more on how 
can we exclude people from participating in the process more so 
than how can we encourage people from participating in the 
process.
    I was part of the Texas Legislature, and I broke quorum 
over an elections bill. We had a big old fight over election 
integrity. One of the big issues was that Republicans put in 
this bill a provision to make it a felony, equal to kidnapping, 
rape, murder, a felony for driving more than three people to 
the polls. How is that even remotely appropriate?
    Now, we ultimately got that bill, that provision struck, 
because we had to leave the State for 6 weeks and make a big 
old thing about it.
    That should have never been in a voting integrity bill. In 
fact, we should have had provisions of how can we make it for 
coworkers to get to the polls? How can we have voting hours? 
How can we have an online national registration? Because we had 
a hearing in this very Committee over voter registration 
purges, roll purges, when people move State to State. There was 
not any meaningful solution to how to address that.
    I think we should have a national voting registration act, 
where you can register to vote, and that is just good. If you 
are an American citizen you can register to vote in this 
country and you should be able to do it online.
    If we have the ability to pay our taxes online, if the 
Government can accept--if it is safe enough to accept our 
money, it should be safe enough to accept our vote.
    I digress. Again, you are right, Mr. Chairman--Mr. Ranking 
Member--time goes by way too fast.
    I guess my question is to you, Ms. Lakin. I mean, you were 
part of the voter purge case in Texas where our Governor tried 
to kick hundreds of thousands of people wrongfully off the 
poll.
    What would online voter registration do to enable greater 
participation? Because one of the things I am most concerned 
about is we do not have enough percentage of our country that 
actually votes, because we make it too hard for young people to 
go. If you cannot do it on your phone, and if you are under 25, 
you are incompetent to function outside of that.
    I mean, what can we do? What is your sense on voter 
registration online? How could that improve our process?
    Ms. Lakin. Thank you for the question.
    Online voter registration would expand the opportunity for 
voters to both register to vote in the first instance and 
update their registration. I think that is also critical, just 
giving people more and more opportunities, more touch points to 
be able to get registered.
    By allowing voters to have that opportunity to also provide 
their updated information and the like, it has the benefit of, 
like the NVRA asks for, also improving list--accurate list 
maintenance, accurate voter rolls, and the like. You get both 
in this type of reform.
    Ms. Johnson. Thank you so much.
    Unfortunately, I am out of time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Chair Lee. Thank you.
    I would like to thank our witnesses for appearing before us 
today. Members of the Committee may have additional questions 
for you, and we ask that you please respond to those questions 
in writing.
    Without objection, each Member will have five legislative 
days to insert additional material into the record or to revise 
and extend their remarks.
    [The written statement of the Southern Poverty Law Center 
referred to follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chair Lee. If there is no further business, I thank the 
Members for their participation.
    Without objection, the Committee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:33 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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