[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                 FROM SERVICE TO STARTUP: EMPOWERING
                        VETERAN ENTREPRENEURS

=======================================================================



                                HEARING

                               before the

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                             UNITED STATES
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              HEARING HELD
                           DECEMBER 10, 2025

                               __________
                               
                               
                               
                               
               [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
               
               
               
                               
            Small Business Committee Document Number 119-025
             Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
             
             
             
             
             
             
                                 ______
                                 

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

62-205                       WASHINGTON : 2026
              
             
            
            
            
            
             

                   HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                    ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                        PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                        DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                         BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                           JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                         MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                         NICK LALOTA, New York
                        BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
                          TONY WIED, Wisconsin
                      ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
                          BRIAN JACK, Georgia
                         TROY DOWNING, Montana
             KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
                         DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
                        JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
               NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                       MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                       HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                      LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
                        GIL CISNEROS, California
                       KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
                        GEORGE LATIMER, New York
                         DEREK TRAN, California
                       LATEEFAH SIMON, California
                       JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
                        HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
                    MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

                 Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director
                 Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                            C O N T E N T S

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Roger Williams..............................................     1
Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     2

                               WITNESSES

Mr. Kevin M. Schmiegel, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, 
  ZeroMils, Alexandria, VA.......................................     5
Ms. Misty Fox, Director, Entrepreneurship and Small Business, 
  D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families, 
  Syracuse, NY...................................................     7
Mr. Christopher Lefebvre, President and Chief Executive Officer, 
  ISI Professional Services, Sterling, VA........................     9
Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, Chief Executive Officer, The 
  Veterans In Business (VIB) Network, San Diego, CA..............    11

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Mr. Kevin M. Schmiegel, Co-Founder and Chief Executive 
      Officer, ZeroMils, Alexandria, VA..........................    43
    Ms. Misty Fox, Director, Entrepreneurship and Small Business, 
      D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families, 
      Syracuse, NY...............................................    47
    Mr. Christopher Lefebvre, President and Chief Executive 
      Officer, ISI Professional Services, Sterling, VA...........    57
    Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, Chief Executive Officer, The 
      Veterans In Business (VIB) Network, San Diego, CA..........    73
Questions for the Record:
    None.
Answers for the Record:
    None.
Additional Material for the Record:
    Defense Credit Union Council (DCUC) Letter...................    79
    American Legion (AL) Letter..................................    82









 
                   FROM SERVICE TO STARTUP: EMPOWERING
                          VETERAN ENTREPRENEURS

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
               Committee on Small Business,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:08 a.m., in Room 
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams 
[chairman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van 
Duyne, Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Wied, Bresnahan, Jack, Downing, 
King-Hinds, Schmidt, Patronis, Velazquez, Scholten, McIver, 
Cisneros, Morrison, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, Conaway, 
and Goodlander.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to 
recognize Mr. Patronis for a prayer.
    Mr. PATRONIS. Please bow your heads. Dear God, we gather 
here today. We have to do the people's work. We need your 
wisdom. We need your guidance. We need your strength. The 
decisions that we are looking at making are going to affect 
millions of people. They aren't easy. I hope that we do this 
right by the folks we serve but also right by you. Please look 
out for our families, as we appreciate their sacrifices, as we 
are doing the work of the people, and let us make sure that we 
always realize what is important for those that we get to serve 
and never lose sight of that. Amen.
    Please face the flag. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of 
the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it 
stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and 
justice for all.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. A matter of personal privilege, real 
quick, I want to remind everybody we have our Christmas party 
reception tomorrow 4 o'clock to 6 o'clock. Everybody has got 
something going, but you need to be here because we are going 
to have a drawing. We are going to draw for new car. Okay. 
Everybody signed up for that. Right here.
    Good morning, everyone. I appreciate everybody being here. 
I want to now call the Committee on Small Business to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the Committee at any time.
    I now recognize for myself for my opening statement. I want 
to welcome, again, to today's hearing, ``From Service to 
Startup; Empowering Veteran Entrepreneurs.'' I want to thank 
our witnesses for joining us today.
    And, to our veteran witnesses and Committee Members, thank 
you for your service.
    In the United States, we believe in taking care of veterans 
and their families with real opportunities that honor their 
service. Today there is about 1.6 million veteran-owned small 
businesses across the nation, which represent 5.3 percent of 
all U.S. businesses. They generate more than $900 billion in 
revenue and employ 3.2 million Americans.
    Our servicemembers have been willing to sacrifice their 
time, opportunities, and even their very lives for our nation. 
Yet, when they return to civilian life, many feel they are 
playing catchup. While veterans were serving their country, 
their peers were going to school, gaining skills in 
apprenticeships, and expanding their professional experience. 
And, when returning from their life of service, veterans must 
navigate transferring their military skills to the workplace. 
And, unlike their civilian peers, veterans often lack the 
credit history to access capital they need to start a small 
business. And, when they leave the military, they lose the 
built-in support network and mission that shaped their daily 
lives, forcing them to rebuild community and connections from 
the ground up.
    Simply put, when returning to civilian life, veterans are 
searching for their new mission. Veterans and their families 
are some of the most capable, resilient, and driven people in 
this country. They are innovators, entrepreneurs and leaders, 
and with the right tools and opportunities, they can overcome 
their obstacle or setback.
    Over the years, a variety of programs have been established 
to support our veterans. The Department of Defense's Transition 
Assistance Program, or TAP, and the SBA's Boots to Business 
program play a crucial role, an important role in that mission.
    And Boots to Business, while helping returned 
servicemembers find their next mission, is entrepreneurs by 
teaching how to get started and grow a business. I am proud 
that this Committee led the way in the fiscal year 2025 NDAA to 
make Boots to Business a permanent resource for our veterans.
    And, like you will hear from our witnesses today, veteran 
leaders in the private sector continue to step up in ways 
government simply can't, offering peer mentorship, business 
guidance, and connections that make all the difference in the 
world. Their contributions demonstrate that veteran 
entrepreneurs thrive when they have success and access to 
structured training, strong peer networks, and pathways to 
capital.
    As a Committee, we have an important role in identifying 
gaps, demanding accountability, and ensuring federal programs 
deliver results for veteran entrepreneurs. By reinforcing this 
partnership between the federal government, the veteran 
community, and the private sector, we can continue innovating 
barriers and opening doors for every veteran entrepreneur 
seeking their next mission.
    So I want to thank all of you again. I want to thank you 
for joining us today. I want to thank you for what you have 
done for our country. I look forward to the conversation ahead.
    I now recognize my friend, the distinguished Ranking Member 
for this Committee, Ms. Velazquez from New York.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the 
committee convening this important hearing today on how we can 
better assist and empower the veteran business community.
    The committee has a long bipartisan tradition supporting 
veteran entrepreneurs as they start, build, and grow their 
businesses. I am working to create an environment that provides 
the opportunity for success.
    Last year, this Committee worked in a bipartisan fashion 
with our colleagues on the Armed Services Committee to codify 
the Boots to Business Program in the National Defense 
Authorization Act. Boots to Business is offered as part of the 
DOD's Transition Assistance Program to provide targeted 
information on training to help servicemembers turn an idea 
into a business plan. Boots to Business is an important and 
effective program: 22,000 veteran servicemembers and military 
spouses participated in fiscal year 2024.
    Unfortunately, many other programs and services that SBA 
provides are less secure, and veteran-owned firms are not 
exempt from the difficult environment created by this 
administration's policies, including, and especially, tariffs.
    In their first budget request, this administration 
attempted to eliminate funding for the SBA Veteran Business 
Outreach Centers. VBOCs are critical resources that provide 
entrepreneur development assistance to veteran-owned small 
businesses across the country.
    When I talk to veteran-owned small businesses and their 
advocates, I hear many of the same concerns as other small 
businesses, that access to capital and the ability to secure 
the amount of capital they need can be a challenge, as well as 
reaching new customers, hiring the right employees, and 
contracting with the federal government.
    We know that among veteran-owned firms there are 
underserved communities in particular, female veterans and 
veterans returning to rural communities.
    There are unique issues for veteran entrepreneurs, 
including accessing local resources after moving around the 
country and the world for so many years. VBOCs and other 
specific programs have targeted expertise and resources that 
can assist these firms in reaching their full potential. We 
must continue to ensure they have the necessary funding and 
support to provide assistance.
    I look forward to hearing from the panel about what is 
working for veteran-owned small businesses and what gaps we can 
fill to ensure that the right services are available and 
accessible when needed.
    I want to take this opportunity to welcome all of you, and 
to thank you for being here this morning. Thank you. I yield 
back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
    And I will now introduce our witnesses. Our first witness 
here with us today is Mr. Kevin Schmiegel. Did I say it right?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Mitch Schmiegel is the co-founder 
and chief executive officer of ZeroMils in Alexandria, 
Virginia. Mr. Schmiegel spent 20 years in the Marine Corps 
holding senior operational leadership roles and training 
Marines for combat deployments, managing large-scale personal 
assignments, and supporting top military leaders in high-stakes 
environments.
    After returning from the Active Service, he founded Hiring 
Our Heroes at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, where he created a 
nationwide model to connect veterans and military spouses with 
meaningful employment.
    He later served as chief executive officer of Operation 
Gratitude, expanding the organization's mission to support 
servicemembers, veterans, and first-responders across the 
country.
    Mr. Schmiegel holds a bachelor of arts in English 
literature. And I am asking you how you say it. So make sure I 
say it right. Okay. From College of Holy Cross, and a master's 
of science in management from the Naval Postgraduate School. I 
want to thank you for being here and thank you for your 
service.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Chairman Williams.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Let me move--okay. You are fine. Let me 
finish this, and we will come back. Okay.
    Our next witness here with us today is Misty Fox. Ms. Fox 
is Director of Entrepreneurship and Small Business at Syracuse 
University, D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military 
Families in Syracuse, New York.
    Ms. Fox has spent nearly a decade building one of the 
nation's strongest ecosystems for veteran entrepreneurs, 
coordinating collaboration between Fortune 500 companies and 
more than 34,000 veteran-owned businesses.
    Prior to joining the Institute, Ms. Fox served as manager 
of Oklahoma State University's Riata Center for 
Entrepreneurship, where she established a multi-university 
consortium, secured grant funding, and developed accelerator 
programs.
    Ms. Fox holds a master of business administration and a 
bachelor of science in business management and marketing from 
Oklahoma State University and is an alumni of President George 
H. W. Bush Stand-To Veteran Leadership Program.
    We are looking forward to your testimony, and thank you for 
everything you have done.
    Our next witness is Mr. Christopher Lefebvre. Mr. Lefebvre 
is the president and chief executive officer of ISI 
Professional Services in Sterling, Virginia.
    Mr. Lefebvre manages a team of more than 50 professionals 
who support federal agencies across program and project 
management, professional, and administrative services, 
logistics, and facility support, and real estate consultation.
    As part of his work at ISI, Mr. Lefebvre served in the 
United States Marine Corps. His distinguished military service 
includes numerous declarations, among them the Joint Service 
Commendation Medal, the Navy Commendation Medal with Bronze 
Star, the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal, and campaign 
medals for service in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the global war on 
Terrorism.
    Mr. Lefebvre earned his master of business administration 
from the Robert H. School of Business at the University of 
Maryland and his bachelor of arts in government from Campbell 
University.
    I want to thank all of you for being here. I now recognize 
the Ranking Member from the great State of New York, Ms. 
Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing 
before us today.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my pleasure 
to introduce our witness, Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner--like 
Christina Aguilera, the singer.
    Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner is the CEO of the Veterans In 
Business Network. She brought more than 30 years of expertise 
from her family's second-generation SDVOSB printing business to 
the VIB Network.
    The network leads networking, matchmaking, and outreach 
initiatives designed to expand opportunities and strengthen 
engagement between veteran-owned businesses, corporations, and 
government agencies.
    The VIB Network has received numerous awards, including the 
2021 Calvert Award for Business Excellence and the 2019 Best in 
Class Trailblazer Award.
    Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner has been honored for her work 
championing veteran entrepreneurs with the Veteran's Business 
Enterprise Champion of the Year Award, the Leadership Award, 
and the Women of Excellence Awards, an appointment to serve on 
the SBA Advisory Committee on Veterans Business Affairs. Thank 
you for being here. Welcome.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
    I now, again, want to say thanks to all of you. And, before 
I recognize the witnesses, I would like to remind them that 
their whole testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. If 
you see the light turn red in front of you, it means your 5 
minutes has concluded, and you should wrap up your testimony. 
And you will hear this if you keep going. The louder this gets, 
it says you need to shut it down. Okay. And it will go fine.
    And, also, I want to say, you will see Members moving in 
and out. There are a lot of hearings going on today. And so, if 
one of them leaves while you are speaking, it has nothing to do 
with what you said or anything; it is just we will be moving 
around. So thank you for understanding that.
    So I now recognize Mr. Schmiegel for his 5 minutes for 
opening remarks.

 STATEMENTS OF KEVIN SCHMIEGEL, CO-FOUNDER AND CEO, ZEROMILS; 
   MISTY FOX, DIRECTOR, ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND SMALL BUSINESS, 
    D'ANIELLO INSTITUTE FOR VETERANS AND MILITARY FAMILIES; 
   CHRISTOPHER LEFEBVRE, PRESIDENT AND CEO, ISI PROFESSIONAL 
 SERVICES; AND REBECCA AGUILERA-GARDINER, CEO, THE VETERANS IN 
                       BUSINESS NETWORK.

                  STATEMENT OF KEVIN SCHMIEGEL

    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member 
Velazquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee. My name 
is Kevin Schmiegel, and I am the co-founder and CEO of a 
service-disabled veteran small business called ZeroMils.
    As a Marine veteran and entrepreneur, I am honored to 
represent the 1.6 million veteran small businesses owners in 
America. My transition from the military was seamless, not 
because of the Transition Assistance Program but through 
relationships built over 20 years in uniform.
    General Jim Jones, who I served with at NATO and in the 
Middle East, became my mentor and biggest advocate in 
transition. He introduced me to the president and CEO of the 
U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Tom Donohue, who gave me my first 
civilian job.
    Tom became my mentor, too. He taught me how to be a CEO, 
and he empowered me to start my own entrepreneur journey in 
2011 as the founder of Hiring Our Heroes at the U.S. Chamber's 
Foundation. HOH was just the beginning.
    After leaving the Chamber, I went on to lead two other 
national nonprofits. Over a decade, those three organizations 
impacted 4 million servicemembers, veterans, first-responders, 
and their families. All told, we raised $100 million in private 
sector investment.
    In March of 2022, my journey as an entrepreneur took a 
different path when I cofounded ZeroMils with a leader I have 
known for 30 years, retired Marine Colonel Paul Cucinotta. Paul 
and I started ZeroMils in response to growing trends in the 
public and private sectors that shaped a broken veteran 
narrative, one that has negatively impacted propensity to serve 
among American youth. Our mission at ZeroMils is to create 
military-thriving cultures and communities, not military-
friendly.
    And veteran-owned small businesses are at the very heart of 
this movement because we fundamentally believe we must play a 
larger role in impacting our country, our economy, and our 
communities.
    According to the most recent SBA report, there are 1.6 
million veteran small businesses in America that generate 
nearly $1 trillion in revenue, employing 3.2 million people 
with a payroll of $179 billion.
    While these data tell a good news story, they represent an 
increasingly alarming trend: For the first time since the end 
of World War II, veterans are less likely to own a small 
business than civilians. 50 percent of World War II veterans 
went on to start or operate a business after returning home, 
defining a period of time that was not only an entrepreneurial 
boom for veterans, it marked an economic boom for the United 
States. This was the direct result of the GI bill providing 
low-interest business loans, along with educational and 
vocational training that helped veterans gain access to capital 
and the necessary skills to launch and grow their businesses.
    In stark contrast, less than 5 percent of post-9/11 
veterans have started a business, and the total number of VOSBs 
has declined dramatically from 11 percent of all businesses in 
2014 to an all-time low today.
    There are several factors causing this decline. First, the 
post-9/11 GI bill is structured to support education and 
training with no equivalent benefit for low-interest business 
loans, making it more challenging than ever for newer veterans 
to access capital.
    Second, there is a fundamental difference in the advice, 
support and services provided in transition. TAP is about 
entitlement, not empowerment.
    And finally, veteran small business owners don't have a 
seat at the table. We don't have a seat at the table at TAP. We 
don't have a seat at the table addressing systemic challenges 
that veterans face, even when we are best positioned to address 
them. And we don't have a seat at the table in forming 
legislation and policy decisions that impact our community.
    So, in the absence of these opportunities, my company, 
ZeroMils, is creating our own table for veteran small 
businesses. In 2026, with our military-thriving action 
coalition partners, we are hosting national and major events. 
We are modeling actionable community playbooks, and we are 
creating a military-thriving small business toolkit with the 
goal of reaching thousands of aspiring and current veteran 
entrepreneurs, helping them grow and thrive.
    To close, I have three suggested next steps for this 
Committee: One, explore ways to improve access to capital for 
veterans who want to start a business or franchise, including 
but not limited to the GI bill; two, encourage other Committees 
that impact veteran transition and quality of life to give 
veteran small businesses a seat at round tables and a voice in 
hearings; and, three, increase access for VOSBs on military 
installations, at TAP, at hiring fairs, and at career-level 
schools.
    Together these recommendations will educate and empower 
servicemembers and veteran entrepreneurs to make better, more 
informed decisions about the opportunities available to them. 
They will increase the number of post-9/11 veteran business 
owners, and they will enable current ones to play a larger role 
in making our country, our economy and our communities 
stronger.
    Thank you, again, for this opportunity to speak today and 
for giving veteran small businesses like ours a voice and a 
seat at the table. I look forward to your questions and 
continuing to serve this Committee in any way possible in the 
future.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
    I now recognize Ms. Fox for her 5 minutes of opening 
remarks.

                     STATEMENT OF MISTY FOX

    Ms. FOX. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and 
Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity today 
to testify alongside my colleagues and friends here.
    I appreciate your leadership for empowering veterans to 
continue their life of service through entrepreneurship and, of 
course, your ongoing support for Boots to Business.
    My name is Misty Stutsman Fox, and I am the Director of 
Entrepreneurship and Small Business at the D'Aniello Institute 
for Veterans and Military Families at Syracuse University.
    Each year, we support tens of thousands of transitioning 
servicemembers, veterans, and military spouses as they build 
businesses, careers, and economic mobility. Veteran 
entrepreneurship isn't just an outcome; it is an identity.
    For many veterans, entrepreneurship is more than a career 
choice. It is a continuation of service. It provides renewed 
purpose, self-direction, and the ability to keep contributing 
after they transition to civilian life.
    Veterans are proven entrepreneurs. Historically they have 
been more likely than their civilian peers to start businesses, 
and when they do, they outperform.
    Veteran-owned businesses generate $1.3 trillion in annual 
receipts, employ more than 4.4 million Americans, and pay over 
$233 billion in payroll.
    Here is the bottom line: Veterans outperform their civilian 
counterparts when barriers are removed. Veteran-owned 
businesses are less likely to close. They have an 8.2 percent 
lower risk of failure, and nearly 98 percent of veterans credit 
their military developed skills, planning, leadership, and 
pressure-tested decision-making for helping them overcome 
business obstacle. Military service trains you to make critical 
decisions with incomplete information. That is exactly what 
entrepreneurs do every single day.
    Barriers are not about talent. They are about access. But, 
despite their strengths, veterans face barriers they shouldn't 
have to navigate alone.
    First, a fragmented support landscape. Veteran 
entrepreneurs often describe the ecosystem as a maze and not a 
map. Without coordination across federal agencies, VSOs, State 
programs and nonprofits, too many veterans are left to guess 
which door to enter.
    Second, rural challenges: 39 percent of veteran 
entrepreneurs serve in rural economies where the entrepreneur 
may be the employer, the mentor, the community anchor, but 
broadband gaps, fewer peer connections, and limited technical 
assistance stack the deck against growth.
    Third, access to market opportunities. Here is what keeps 
me up at night, veterans are ready to compete. They just need 
clear pathways and access to capital. But the bigger question 
is, are we creating policies that open doors or close them?
    Two-thirds of veterans use personal or family savings as 
their primary access to capital at the foundational phase--not 
loans, not SBA programs. 88 percent of those veterans find the 
procurement landscape difficult to navigate.
    Veterans know how to serve. What they need is a fair shot 
and not a shortcut. To meet this moment, I ask Congress to 
consider four solutions that unlock economic potential, rather 
than create new programs for programs' sake.
    First, strengthen SBA's Office of Veteran Business 
Development by fully funding VBOCs and public-private 
partnership grants. Boots to Business alone cannot meet veteran 
entrepreneur's needs.
    Second, strengthen capital readiness and access, coaching, 
credit repair and veteran-specific underwriting.
    Third, ensure policies expand opportunities rather than 
limit it. We need thoughtful policy that enables veteran-owned 
businesses to compete fairly in the procurement landscape, 
streamline compliance, expanded rule infrastructure, 
transparent requirements, and meaningful feedback loops that 
build capacity rather than create barriers.
    And, fourth, fund data collection that measures real 
outcomes from the SBA programs and resource partners, not just 
dependents. Veterans don't need guaranteed success. They need 
guaranteed access.
    At IVMF, we operate over 11 training programs and 
navigation services that have supported nearly 100,000 veteran 
entrepreneurs. We have helped with 35,000 entrepreneurs get to 
the navigation that they need. We know that programs like 
CEOcircle, EDGE, Entrepreneurship Bootcamp for Veterans 
illustrate what is possible when government, banks, 
corporations act as partners and not parallel efforts. We know 
that public-private partnerships work.
    Take Michael Bower, a Marine Corps veteran, through our 
program Michael connected with SCORE, SBDC, as well as CPAs to 
acquire Eagle Metalcraft, a sheet metal manufacturing company. 
He doubled sales and workforce in 3 years, and he was named the 
2023 SBA veteran small business of the year. He said, ``This 
help is really what changed our ability to add jobs.'' That is 
return on investment, measurable, and jobs created, businesses 
scaled, and community strengthened.
    Veteran entrepreneurs are not asking for special treatment. 
They are asking for systems that recognize their potential and 
remove avoidable barriers. They defended the American Dream; 
they deserve a fair chance to build it.
    I thank the Committee and look forward to your questions.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
    And I now recognize Mr. Lefebvre for his 5 minutes of 
opening remarks.

               STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER LEFEBVRE

    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Good morning, Chairman Williams, Ranking 
Member Velazquez, and esteemed Members of this Committee. Thank 
you for the opportunity to testify today. It is an honor to 
join you for a discussion that is not only vital to the 
economic strength of our country but to the future of the men 
and women who have served it.
    My name is Chris Lefebvre. I am a Marine Corps veteran and 
president and CEO of ISI Professional Services, a service-
disabled veteran-owned small business.
    I appear before you today as a practitioner, someone who 
has lived the transition from military service and now 
employers and mentors veterans navigating similar paths.
    When I left the Marine Corps, I didn't plan to start a 
business. I didn't even know that that was an option. I joined 
ISI as an employee seeking stability and to make an impact. 
Less than 3 years later, I became president and CEO, and I 
quickly learned that, while the military prepared me to lead 
people, I didn't understand the fundamentals of running a 
business. I didn't know what I didn't know.
    What I encountered, and what so many veterans encounter, 
was not a lack of capability but a lack of clarity around the 
requirements that I stepped into and the resources available to 
me. Like me, veterans struggle because they enter an 
entrepreneurial ecosystem that is difficult to see. It is hard 
to navigate, and it is very easy to fall out of.
    And that is the central point of my testimony. This is a 
system design problem, not a talent problem. Veterans bringing 
the qualities that every successful entrepreneur needs, but 
they face an ecosystem built in pieces. Strong programs, but 
not a pathway. Resources, but not direction. Opportunities, but 
not continuity.
    From my experience, and from the data, four failures stand 
out. First is navigation. Awareness of resources can deeply 
depend on geography and structure, or, often, luck. Veterans 
often stumble into programs rather than being led or guided 
into them.
    Second, continuity. Even when veterans enter high-quality 
programs like Boots to Business or Focused Accelerators, the 
programs are not connected. There is no one handoff, no shared 
roadmap, no follow throughs, and momentum stalls.
    Third, capital access. Traditional underwriting models do 
not reflect the realities of service. Frequent moves, 
deployment, shorter credit histories, these are structural 
mismatches, not risk factors.
    Fourth, procurement volatility. Veteran-owned firms rely on 
a stable federal marketplace. When policies shift through 
reliance on category management, or consolidations that 
unintentionally limit participation, uncertainty rises, 
investment slows, and it becomes harder for veteran-led firms 
to complete and grow.
    These failures come at a cost. And, while 1.6 million 
veteran-owned businesses contribute significantly to the 
economic, millions more veterans have the capacity to build and 
grow companies if the system just better enabled them to move 
from interest to action.
    The good news is that targeted practical reforms can close 
these gaps. In my written testimony, I outline six 
recommendations that solve the fundamental problem--
fragmentation--by building the unified continuum that veterans 
need.
    First, establish a national navigation hub, a single front 
door, digital and human, that triages veterans to the right 
programs at the right times.
    Second, standardized warm handoff between programs. This 
turns isolated touch points into a connected pathway, from 
ideation to launch, from growth to exit.
    Third, modernize entrepreneurship exposure within TAP. 
Entrepreneurship education through Boots to Business during TAP 
is a game changer, but it should be mandatory, not elective. 
Consistent high-quality exposure ensures that every 
servicemember understands that entrepreneurship is a viable 
post-service option.
    Fourth, modernize capital access. Implement the capital 
provisions in the Veteran Entrepreneurship Empowerment Act, 
expand early stage flexibility, and pilot structured uses of 
the GI bill for entrepreneurship training.
    Fifth, stabilize procurement conditions for veteran-owned 
firms. Small businesses struggle to make multiyear investments 
when goals fluctuate, rules shift, or opportunities consolidate 
beyond their reach.
    And, six, improve transparency across nonprofit and VSOs. 
Veterans deserve clarity about which programs produce outcomes, 
and which do not.
    Individually these recommendations address the major pain 
points that veterans face. Collectively, though, they build the 
continuum that the current system lacks.
    We as veterans do not need guarantees. We need a system 
that matches our capability: clear, coherent and built from 
momentum. If we modernize that system, they will continue to do 
what they have always done: lead with purpose, build with 
integrity, and strengthen the economic and strategic fabric of 
our nation.
    Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, Members of the 
Committee, thank you for your commitment to those who served. I 
appreciate the opportunity to testify today, and I am happy to 
answer any questions you have.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
    I now recognize Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner for her 5 minutes of 
opening remarks.

             STATEMENT OF REBECCA AGUILERA-GARDINER

    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Thank you. Chairman Williams, 
Ranking Member Velazquez, and distinguish Members of the 
Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
    My name is Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, and I am the CEO of 
Veterans in Business, or VIB, Network. We are a crucial 
nonprofit organization specifically dedicated to advocating 
for, educating, and connecting veteran-owned small businesses 
and service-disabled veteran-owned businesses with real 
opportunities in the corporate and government marketplace. The 
VIB Network represents diverse coalition of veterans who have 
traded their uniforms for business suits, applying the 
discipline, resilience, and leadership learned in the military 
to the American marketplace.
    We execute our mission through impactful programs like our 
B.R.A.V.O. Corporate Mentor/Veteran Business Protege Program, 
which provides intensive mentoring and coaching at no cost to 
the veterans.
    There are nearly 1.6 million veteran-owned businesses in 
the United States. These firms employ over 5 million Americans 
and generate approximately $1 trillion in annual receipts. When 
a veteran succeeds in business, they hire other veterans, 
reinvest in their local communities, and strengthen the 
national supply chain.
    We started the VIB Network because corporations were saying 
it was difficult to find veterans for projects, and the VA 
search engine was challenging to navigate. However, the path to 
success is fraught with obstacles.
    Data from our 2023 veteran business survey indicates that 
the majority of veteran-owned businesses are small, nearly 90 
percent, with over 60 percent reporting annual revenues below 
$500,000.
    I would like to highlight three critical areas where this 
Committee's support is essential for veteran business success. 
First, the federal government has a statutory goal of awarding 
5 percent of all prime contract dollars to SDVOSBs. Yet the 
practice of category management, bundling small contracts into 
massive vehicles to save money, disproportionately harms 
veteran small businesses. This consolidation regulates capable 
veteran firms to permanent subcontractor status stripping them 
of past-performance rating necessary for growth.
    Furthermore, large prime contractors are often awarded 
billion dollar contracts with a stipulation that they utilize 
small veteran businesses. Currently, there is insufficient 
oversight and penalties when a prime fails to meet their 
veteran utilization goals. We need teeth in these regulations.
    We also strongly support updating the sole source threshold 
across SBA programs, including SDVOSBs, VOSBs, HUBZone and 
8(a), to align permanent tools with current realities and 
expand access for small businesses.
    Further, VIB supports H.R. 2804, the Protecting of Small 
Business Competition Act of 2025, which will help VOSBs remain 
competitive.
    Second, in the federal government, veterans have a setaside 
status. However, in corporate America, veteran-owned businesses 
are often not recognized as a diverse category in the same vein 
as minority or women-owned. Veterans are a diverse group by 
nature representing every race, gender, and background in 
America. We urge this Committee to encourage the private sector 
to standardize inclusion of VOSBs and SDVOSBs in their supply 
diversity goals.
    When major corporations open supply chains to veterans, it 
reduces reliance on government contracts and creates a more 
sustainable business ecosystem.
    Finally, you cannot start a business or scale a business 
without capital. Unfortunately, veterans have struggled to 
access traditional financing. Many transition out the service 
with gaps in their credit history due to deployment or lack of 
tangible collateral required by traditional banks. While SBA 
loan programs are vital, the fees and strict underwriting 
criteria often leave smaller veteran startups behind.
    Veterans have already signed a blank check to their country 
payable with their lives. When they return home and choose to 
start a business, they are asking for nothing more than an 
equal opportunity to compete. By removing bureaucratic barriers 
and ensuring fair access to capital and contracts, we do not 
just help veterans; we fuel the American economy.
    Thank you for your time, and for your continued commitment 
to the veteran business community.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
    And we will now move to the Member questions under the 5-
minute rule. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Schmiegel, as a veteran who has dedicated his civilian 
life to serving fellow veterans, you have first-hand experience 
in navigating the benefits and the resources. So my question 
is, how difficult is it to navigate the business resources 
available to veterans, and how can technology make it easier?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Chairman Williams, I have to say that when I 
first started my entrepreneurial business, ZeroMils, we had to 
do it on our own. So it was difficult to navigate. And I think 
the points being made about that navigation and consolidating 
it under larger nonprofits, larger VSOs is exactly the wrong 
direction to take.
    Figuring out how to run or how to start and run a business 
is part of the process. I think that the solution should lie 
with the private sector. I think it should be private-sector 
led, and I think the type of automation that we are working on 
through a military-thriving small business toolkit will be with 
companies that want small business owners to thrive, to make it 
seamless, to make a dashboard that they can use at the start of 
their business, and to carry them through so they not only have 
to start it, but they can grow and continue to grow.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Ms. Fox, your institution plays a vital 
role in helping veterans find their next mission as small 
business owners through programs like CEOcircle and Boots to 
Business, which you mentioned. And, last year, this Committee 
worked to make Boots to Business a course that gives a 
servicemember an introduction to entrepreneurship permanent.
    So the question would be, how important is the timing of 
taking the Boots to Business course before transitioning to 
civilian life?
    Ms. FOX. Thank you for that question, Chairman. It is 
extremely important. Quite frankly, Boots to Business is the 
language of entrepreneurship, and the fact that it is hosted 
both here and OCONUS is something that is extremely important 
as geography should never ration your opportunity. And I think 
the great thing about Boots to Business is that you have the 
ability to learn the 101 of entrepreneurship. We should expand 
it. It works. It works, but it needs to work for more people. 
We need to have it be more available online. We need to have it 
be more available with touch points even after transition 
because we know that veterans are starting businesses 11 years 
after transition. So to make sure that they can continue to 
check in and understand the resources that are there for them 
when they are ready is paramount. If we solve for transition, 
we will solve for small business. Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And, Mr. Lefebvre, as a 
veteran, you both employ and mentor other veterans navigating 
similar circumstances and pathways. And can you share your 
approach to fostering veteran entrepreneurship and what others 
can learn from it.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Absolutely. Thank you, Chairman. My approach 
is multifold. The reality of what my testimony talked about is 
the continuum throughout this process. There is ideation. There 
is startup. There is growth. There is exit, and what any 
individual veteran, or any entrepreneur for that matter, needs 
at any given moment is fundamentally different.
    And so, whether it is mentoring employees of my current 
firm that are entrepreneurial in nature and how I can leverage 
SBA programs, like the Mentor Protege Program, and entering 
into joint ventures to help with real mentorship and support is 
fundamentally different than my advocacy and support that I 
give institutions like IVMF through EBV and other accelerators 
that can help, especially those veterans that are on the front 
end of that journey from ideation into building their business 
plan, actually letting boots hit the ground, to take it from 
momentum, I look at each step of that across the continuum very 
differently.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. In the time I got remaining, 
Mr. Schmiegel, veteran small business ownership has been 
decreasing over the years as fewer post-9/11 veterans are 
becoming entrepreneurs. You discussed that. However, some 
veterans have found that franchising has helped them achieve 
their dream of business ownership.
    So, from your perspective, what is contributing to the 
decline in veteran entrepreneurship?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the decline is largely due to the 
lack of access to capital. You mentioned franchising. Veterans 
are actually twice as likely to own a franchise than their 
civilian counterparts. It is across the other small businesses 
where they are on their own that they don't get to achieve 
their full potential.
    So I think we should really look at legislation that is out 
there that will improve access to capital, and, also, take off 
some of the onerous regulations that prohibit franchisers from 
engaging with the small business community, the veteran who 
wants to own a franchise. The reason they are most likely to 
succeed as a franchisee is that they have an SOP, they have a 
playbook, and they have easier capital, access to capital than 
a small business owner that is doing it on their own.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And I now yield my 
time back and recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of 
questions.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Aguilera-
Gardiner, you were a Member of the SBA Advisory Committee on 
Veteran's Business Affairs previously, correct?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What is the status of that Committee?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. The status is I have no idea. I 
haven't heard back from them. And we did a lot of work when I 
was on the Committee, and, you know, I would love to find out 
what the next steps are for that Committee as well. But I have 
not heard any process, and I don't think that they have had any 
meetings since.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay. Did you see value in the Committee for 
both veteran business owners and for the SBA?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. There was a huge amount of 
value in that being able to speak to the SBA directly, talking 
about programs, talking about committees. We were actually on 
the verge of creating a committee that was there to help 
veterans connect more with corporations and leading that. And I 
really did see there was quite a bit of value, and we were able 
to connect with fellow veterans and organizations across the 
U.S. that are impacting veteran business' lives. So----
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What happened to the progress made by the 
Committee?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I do not know. I wish I knew. And I 
have reached out, but I haven't heard anything. But, you know, 
we worked--we had a couple committees, and we worked very hard 
on creating this opportunity, new opportunity for veteran 
businesses.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Well, Mr. Chairman, here we are listening to 
their stories and recommendations that you are making, but we 
don't have a way to channel those into SBA so that they could 
revisit, for example, the different SBA financing programs that 
they have.
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. And how to reach the veteran community. So I 
will suggest that we should send a bipartisan letter inquiring 
as to the status of that committee.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. So move.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, can you 
speak to the importance of mentorships for helping veteran 
business owners start and grow their business?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I think mentorship is key for anyone 
starting a business, you know, from the startups to people who 
have been in business 5 to 10 years. And veteran businesses who 
have been around for 5, 10, 20 years, having them mentor and 
share their experience with fellow veterans so that they can 
get past the red tape and understand which avenue to take, you 
know, really can help decrease a veteran's time of struggling 
when they are starting a business.
    I know, with our programs, so we have two programs, our 
Veteran-To-Veteran Business Cohort Program, which has a 
coaching section, a peer mentor group, and, also, our Corporate 
Mentor of Veteran Business Protege Program is very essential to 
helping veterans succeed in business.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Yes.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, ma'am. What I would say there is 
we, as veterans, we have discipline in abundance, and we are 
tenacious as can be. So we can succeed on our own, and we 
oftentimes do, but mentorship is a force multiplier. And what 
is lacking now is simple education around what mentorship 
avenues exist. And so a particular veteran that may be 
transitioning out of service or one that has transitioned 11 
years prior just doesn't know where to start.
    And so, whether it be commercially, within industry and 
certainly programs and policies that are put in place, what 
needs to happen is linking and connecting it all and making it 
accessible to everybody to better understand.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Ms. Fox, are there opportunities 
you see around any overlooked or underutilized ways of 
improving outreach to veterans?
    Ms. FOX. When improving outreach to veterans I go back to 
what I said earlier around connectivity. I think veterans are a 
high-trust group. They will often rely on word-of-mouth to 
understand what programs are out there. So making those who 
have succeeded within the ecosystem ambassadors for the 
ecosystem will be paramount.
    In addition, one thing that we have to understand is that 
it can be--someone should not have to be a subject-matter 
expert in the ecosystem to be able to navigate it. So I think, 
as we look through how we can do outreach, it is around trust, 
it is around timing and making sure that, as they continue to 
move forward, we have interventions, and, of course, it is 
around that connectivity.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
    Mr. Schmiegel.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I would just like to add that the answer 
lies with us. I think, if you listen to Mr. Lefebvre and Ms. 
Aguilera-Gardiner, that they said the same thing. We don't have 
a seat at the table. So how do you mobilize small businesses, 
the 1.6 million across the country, to provide that mentorship? 
This isn't going to be solved with big nonprofits, big VSOs, 
and big companies alone. This will be solved by us, veteran 
small business owners for veteran small business owners. TAP is 
broken.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I yield back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
    I now recognize Congressman Stauber from the great State of 
Minnesota for 5 minutes.
    Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you, 
veterans, for sharing your information with us. But, most 
importantly, thanks for your service to this nation.
    15 years ago my wife left service after 23 and a half years 
with the Minnesota Air National Guard, the first female command 
chief in the State's history. We struggled when we were 
considering opening up a small business with access to capital. 
That was 15 years ago.
    I don't think we need any more committees and any more 
meetings. You said it, sir, 2 minutes ago: The answer lies 
right here. You have lived it. You have breathed it. You have 
understood it. You have had some ups and downs. This is 
important, that we recognize your value to the veterans 
community. We know the answers because you have given us the 
answers. Now it is up to us to try to help you out.
    I don't know where we are from 15 years ago to today, but I 
am guessing access to capital, navigation, reintegration. We 
have been talking about that for a long time. You have the 
answers.
    And, Mr. Lefebvre, I will tell you that you said something 
that struck me: There needs to be one single front door, and it 
has got to be a double door for our veterans. Open those double 
doors, and they are going to be connected to your great 
programs. One single door for the veterans, double door, and 
you will all get the opportunity to serve.
    I don't understand how that is not done already. We have 
been talking about this. We have to put our talk into action by 
investing in your programs. And, when you talk about bringing 
veteran-owned businesses to all parts of our conference, you 
are exactly right. We need to take care of the veterans. We 
have always talked about, and we will always support our 
veterans. Now let's put that into action.
    You are all leading in your own respective rights in your 
own respective communities. I am listening. Usually I have 
something to pick on here. I don't have anything to pick on. 
You guys are awesome. This is a great--this panel is one of the 
best panels that I have seen in the 7 years on small business. 
Spectacular because you know what you are talking about. You 
have lived it. You know the hardships.
    39 percent of our veteran-owned businesses are in rural 
America. We can't forget rural America. That is where the 
veterans grew up, that is where they want to live and raise 
their family. That is where they are going to die, and that is 
where they are going to bring economic value.
    Veterans are so important. The boots that my wife wore in 
Iraq, her hat she wore in Iraq, and that funeral picture in 
case she didn't make it back are in my office today.
    And many Members--this is a bipartisan issue that we can 
get behind. And I thank the Chairman and the ranker for 
bringing the four of you professionals, the leaders in your 
respective communities. The time for talking is over. We need 
action to support our veterans. I ask each and every one of you 
to continue to do what you are doing. We have heard it now. In 
fact, we have heard it several times. It is time to put this 
into practice.
    That one front door for our veterans--and, sir, let it be a 
double door because we have got a lot of American heroes that 
can bring their entrepreneurship and their leadership to Main 
Street America, and to rural America. We have asked them to 
serve our country, given us the freedoms that we enjoy today, 
you know what I am talking about because you experienced it: 
Upon your exit there should be reintegration, that front door, 
and then all the options should be there. We shouldn't have to 
go down 55 lanes and figure out where you should end up at.
    I am committed, and I know the Chairman and both political 
parties are committed to making sure that our veterans are 
taken care of from start to finish. Thank you for being risk 
takers. Thank you for your service and sacrifice, and to your 
families.
    And I yield back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of 
Michigan for 5 minutes.
    Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    And thank you so much to our incredible witnesses today for 
taking the time to be here, helping us to do our jobs. For 
those who served, thank you for your service. To all of you who 
serve our veterans, thank you for your service to them.
    I am proud to chair the bipartisan Congressional Franchise 
Caucus, our goal is to ensure franchise businesses thrive 
locally, empower workers, and serve as a pathway to 
entrepreneurship for all.
    It is notable that, while veterans make up just 7 percent 
of the overall population, they account for 14 percent of 
franchise owners.
    Mr. Schmiegel, my first question is for you, can you speak 
to why franchising draws veteran entrepreneurs?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Representative Scholten. First of 
all, my wife grew up in Iron Mountain, Michigan. So, when we 
talk about rural communities and empowering veteran 
entrepreneurs to own businesses, we are living and breathing 
that right now. We are moving to northeast Wisconsin, and I can 
see how what we are doing to create military thriving cultures 
and communities right there where my wife grew up can really 
change the paradigm.
    And I don't care if I have to model it in the town that I 
live, work and serve. It is just like a veteran entrepreneur to 
do that.
    The phrase ``in business for yourself and not by yourself'' 
is frequently cited because it perfectly encapsulates why the 
franchise model bridges the gap between military service and 
civilian entrepreneurship so effectively.
    In my experience, franchising provides veterans with the 
operational guardrails they are trained to respect while 
offering the autotomy and empowering them with the leadership 
skills they learned through service.
    The most daunting aspect of entrepreneurship for many 
veterans is the lack of structure. In the military, survival 
depends on adherence to SOPs, and franchising replicates this 
safety net.
    Finally, the data shows that, when a veteran goes into 
business for themselves, they rarely stay by themselves. 
Veteran franchises are 30 percent more likely to hire other 
veterans than nonveteran owners. Thank you.
    Ms. SCHOLTEN. That is wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. And 
we are obviously a huge supporter, and if there is anything 
that we can do in the Franchise Caucus to elevate your issues, 
please reach out to me or my team.
    Moving onto some contracting issues, the Departments of 
Defense and Veterans Affairs are the largest source of federal 
contract dollars for both service-disabled veterans and 
veteran-owned small businesses.
    In fiscal year 2022, DOD awards accounted for over 42 
percent of contract dollars to VOSBs, while 39 percent were 
awarded to service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses.
    Similarly, 28 percent of VA contract dollars were awarded 
to veteran-owned small businesses, and 34 percent to service-
disabled veteran-owned small businesses.
    Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, veteran entrepreneurs bring a skill 
set and knowledge base that is advantageous for defense-related 
contracts, but we all know these qualities can benefit 
contracting in every industry.
    What more can Congress do to ensure that these veteran-
owned small businesses have the tools they need to compete for 
contracts in other industries?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Well, I think it is really important 
that a veteran actually wins these contracts. You know, just to 
say that they are available, but winning these contracts is 
really essential to a veteran's growth.
    And what also happens is, when a veteran wins a contract, 
that shouldn't be just a one-time thing. They should win 
contracts over and over, and, also, grow from that. Every 
business wants to grow. Every business wants to continue to win 
those contracts. So, by opening up the SDVOSBs and VOSBs and 
the Rule of Two, these are opportunities that any veteran, and 
a veteran can actually use these to access these certification 
to grow their business and to move to that next level.
    Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you.
    Ms. Fox, you seem like you want to say something. Yeah. I 
want to hear from you. Yeah.
    Ms. FOX. So, since 2016, we have worked with the Coalition 
of Veteran Owned Business, which is a group of Fortune 500 
companies who have said, ``We will spend more with veterans 
than our supply chain,'' and when we see that--last year about 
$238 million were made from connections that we made to those 
Fortune 500 companies.
    What I will say is that training without market sets people 
up to fail, and being able to make sure that those businesses 
are trained and retooled and that it doesn't require an onerous 
amount of retooling between government and private sector is 
paramount. We see great training programs out there. We have 
them. The Veteran Institute for Procurement has them both in 
government contracting and newly now in corporate contracting, 
and that training and those peer networks of people who have 
been there, done that, and that connectivity, we will continue 
to see more success.
    Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Very helpful. My time has expired. 
I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of 
Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thanks very much to our witnesses.
    And, particularly to our veterans, thank you for your 
service very much.
    So, yeah, like many, I have 45,000 veterans throughout my 
district. Many of them are entrepreneurs. We certainly want 
strong transition support, to reduce burdens on regulations, 
and ensure access to capital.
    You know, in my former business, we did our best to hire 
veterans. I mean, many businesses do. You go in. You see their 
support and their programs. And they talk about it. They kind 
of, you know, boast about it, which is great. You know, we want 
more of that.
    Nevertheless, I do sense, even though the dedication is 
clear from all of you in your care for our veterans, I also 
sense frustration. So, you know, we do; our government is 
bureaucratic. So we are really dealing with two agencies, I 
guess, right, SBA and Veterans Administration. We have Kelly 
Loeffler there at SBA, and we have got Doug Collins, who is a 
former Member, a good friend of all of ours, as the VA 
Secretary. We should be able to make some improvements here 
moving forward.
    So, as I am asking you questions, please just tell me what 
you want to do, what needs to be done. If you were here, what 
would you be doing as a priority to help TAP? Like, for 
instance, Mr. Schmiegel, Colonel Schmiegel, you mentioned that 
TAP is broken. Well, TAP is a pretty viable--or, actually, it 
doesn't sound viable, but it is listed as an important program. 
Maybe you could describe what we need to fix it.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think we need to start with why it is 
broken. Think about a servicemember at the end of their 
service: You don't have a captive audience. In 5 days, you are 
jamming a bunch of information to an audience that is not 
really listening.
    Mr. MEUSER. Right.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. And they have no context. How are they 
supposed to understand the fundamentals of owning a small 
business, or, in a gig economy, what job to have? We should be 
asking them fundamental questions so they discover for 
themselves: What brings me joy? What is my purpose? And what 
does my community need from me? Or how can I make money or make 
an impact with the next chapter of my life? They should ask 
themselves, what are the five things they need to thrive? In 
transition, we are just talking about education, benefits, and 
employment in a gig economy, instead of encouraging them to get 
these five things. Outside of meaningful employment, the second 
thing is a sense of purpose through continued service. The 
third is a connected community or a tribe. The fourth is good 
health outcomes, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional. And 
the fifth is the ``kit bag'', those things they need to 
constantly seek self-improvement so that they understand the 
strengths that they have and they apply those strengths going 
forward. All the other stuff that is part of a 5-day course is 
going right over their heads. So we need to prepare them with 
the fundamental questions that they have in their lives to 
succeed.
    Mr. MEUSER. Are those departments within the VA and SBA 
sufficiently supported, funded? Do they have enough people in 
TAP.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the programs are funded well. Where 
I think the common theme today that you heard was access to 
capital. Instead of investing taxpayer dollars in things that 
are not having the impact, as we see veteran small businesses 
decline, use some of that capital, use some of the funding to 
provide more access to capital.
    Mr. MEUSER. Ms. Fox--excuse me. Thank you. Access to 
capital, let's focus there. I am on Financial Services, access 
to capital is, you know, should be a specialty for small 
businesses. Tell me what problems there are and what you think 
we should do to make it better.
    Ms. FOX. Thank you for that question. 37 percent of veteran 
entrepreneurs basically say that access to capital is a barrier 
for them. And, if you look at it, typically they will need 
about $50,000 to start a business, but they are going to their 
personal savings. They are going to those areas instead of 
loans. And why, because as we look at TAP, we are not setting a 
solid foundation in terms of credit repair. What do you need to 
do to be successful so that you can then go start your 
business?
    And I said earlier, when we solve for transition, we will 
get there. 43 percent of veterans say, ``We have a tough time 
with transition.'' And, if you think about it, when someone 
gets out and they are looking at what their options are, we 
have more corporate hiring programs.
    Mr. MEUSER.--your community banks' cooperation.
    Ms. FOX. They do, yes, but 66 percent of veterans do not 
know about CDFIs, or any of those options as well. So the issue 
is not just access. It is readiness.
    Mr. MEUSER. All right. Thank you. Mr. Lefebvre, last word, 
I only have 15 seconds left, on access to capital.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, sir. I appreciate it. The only thing 
that I would continue is in the rest of my testimony is 
continuity across the entire continuum. It is not just about 
startups and access to capital at the front end. It also 
includes exit. The SBA 7(a) loan with a limit of $5 million 
from a loan is not going to help a veteran that actually wants 
to pay that forward to another veteran internally. If you are 
trying to look avenues outside of private equity or some 
venture capital firm----
    Mr. MEUSER. We are looking to raise that up, so thank you 
all very much.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. MEUSER. I appreciate it. And, again, thank you for your 
service.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New 
Jersey for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for 
convening this hearing, and thank you to our witnesses for 
their service in keeping our country safe and for sharing their 
expertise with the Committee today.
    The mission of supporting our military veterans as they 
transition to civilian life and pursue entrepreneurship--the 
heart of the American dream--unites every Member of this body. 
We all recognize that these men and women possess a foundation 
of leadership, discipline, and problem-solving skills that are 
invaluable assets in business. We must encourage and empower 
them to build and grow veteran-owned small businesses. This is 
one of the most meaningful ways we can honor their service and 
ensure our economy benefits from their exceptional talent.
    In my hometown in New Jersey's Tenth Congressional 
District, we see this potential every day through businesses 
like Dogwood Green Dispensary--there we go--a newly opened 
veteran-, Black-, and woman-owned business in West Orange. 
Dogwood Green is the product of three lifelong friends who 
joined together to build a business grounded in education, 
community empowerment, and their shared experiences, all while 
employing hardworking people and stimulating the local economy. 
When we equip veterans with tools to succeed as entrepreneurs, 
we uplift an entire community.
    To each of my witnesses, I have the same question for all 
of you. Veterans sometimes struggle to translate their 
specialized military experience into civilian business plans 
and projections when transitioning to business ownership. What 
procedures can the SBA standardize within the Transition 
Assistance Program, better known as TAP, to ensure veterans 
consistently and effectively translate their military skills 
into viable civilian business models? Anyone can jump in and 
start.
    Ms. FOX. Once we look at--or thank you for the question. 
Once we look at TAP, I think one thing that would really help 
there are those warm handoffs. Right now, we are expecting 
those who are transitioning and figuring out where they are 
moving to, what job they are getting, et cetera, to also 
navigate this landscape. As we look at warm handoffs and to 
resource partners and trusted grantees, we need to incentivize 
connectivity and referrals so that these resources are at their 
first best use and also capitalizing on the dollars that 
continue to shrink in the nonprofit world.
    Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Ms. Fox.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the biggest answer, again, lies with 
us. Veteran small business owners aren't invited to 
installations to speak on bases and stations to have access to 
transitioning servicemembers at TAP. They just don't. It is the 
same big nonprofits with the big companies. And, in a lot of 
cases, the veteran small business owner is expected to pay to 
play to actually get on an installation. Not all of them get 
that access.
    So, again, if we want to solve this problem, the answer 
lies with us. Give veteran small business owners like the ones 
on this panel--give us more access. Give us more access so we 
can share our stories. You want to streamline frustration and 
confusion? Let the mentors who represent the veteran small 
business owners of America talk to the future entrepreneurs who 
want to be part of this movement.
    Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, ma'am, for the question. I will 
narrow my answer specifically to entrepreneurship.
    We invest a tremendous amount into our servicemembers, 
whether that is in a unique specialty or a generalist. The 
problem with entrepreneurship is, even within TAP, it is still 
inconsistent. As great as Boots to Business is, the deployment 
and delivery of Boots to Business is highly inconsistent. 
Whether someone is redeploying from Japan, whether they had a 
ship at sea, how they receive the knowledge is inconsistent, so 
we cannot fundamentally expect to have a consistent outcome.
    The other thing that I would say for entrepreneurship is 
what if we introduced it before TAP? You have a servicemember 
that is riddled with questions about the future and the 
uncertainty, and so they may elect to receive a class on 
entrepreneurship, but really what they are wondering and 
worried about is what is next, period. So what if our military 
service branches--and we all say something to some degree that 
we want to return better citizens post service. And 
servicemembers go into service for education, for different 
reasons. What if one of those was this was actually a 
springboard into entrepreneurship to deploy their ideas that 
they have?
    Mrs. MCIVER. Got it. Thank you.
    Anything to add in 20 seconds? I am sorry.
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yeah. No problem. I think that 
entrepreneurship is valuable and having that mentorship and 
also making sure that the veterans who are leaving know about 
the different options that they have available to them like 
entrepreneurship and working in a variety of different avenues. 
Thank you.
    Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you. Thank you all so much for your 
expertise. Thank you.
    With that, I yield back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Today's hearing focuses on a very important mission in my 
estimation. When our veterans return home, many of them want to 
start a business and continue serving their communities. They 
have the skills. They have the discipline. They have the 
leadership that makes them a natural fit for starting a small 
business in America. But we also know the reality is that 
veteran entrepreneurship has declined sharply. After World War 
II and Korea, nearly half of all returning veterans started a 
business. Today, that number is just more than 4 percent.
    Our veterans today are not less capable than they were 70 
years ago. In fact, I think they are more capable than they 
were 70 years ago, but we no longer support them in the way 
that we did 70 years ago. That is why I introduced the 
bipartisan SERVE Act with Representatives Davids and Conaway. 
The House passed it with overwhelming support. This legislation 
identifies the challenges veterans face when starting a small 
business and evaluates how military service deployment and 
transition affects the ability to access affordable credit. Our 
veterans deserve better. They deserve clear access to 
resources, to capital, and to the opportunities that they 
earned.
    Mr. Schmiegel, I want to start with you. Thank you for your 
testimony today. In your opinion, what is the driving force 
behind this precipitous decline, the shrinking rates of veteran 
entrepreneurship in the last 70 years?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think a lot of it has to do with the same 
organizations saying the same things with the same agendas in 
mind. Like, we are focused on the past. When I started Hiring 
Our Heroes in 2011, veteran employment was at a historic high 
at 10 percent. Over the last 2 years, it has been lower than 3 
percent. So why are we investing all of our resources on a 
problem that doesn't exist? Three percent unemployment for 
veterans, but we still think that it is a problem when it is 
not.
    How do we invest the same sort of energy, resources, time 
into getting servicemembers and veteran entrepreneurs to 
consider a different pathway? It really is a focus of emphasis. 
Look at HVAC, look at SVAC, and look at the same players 
talking about the same things. Do you see a veteran small 
business owner testifying before the HVAC and SVAC very often? 
Ask ourselves the question. If you really want to make change, 
put it in the hands of people who are living, breathing, and 
walking in the shoes of the future veteran entrepreneurs in 
America.
    Mr. ALFORD. What can the federal government do to better 
support veteran entrepreneurs?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think we start with investing--investing 
in them and make sure that they have access to capital. The 
difference in our environment right now in this culture is, in 
transition, servicemembers are entitled. We are talking about 
their benefits. We are talking about education. We are talking 
about employment. What happened in World War II and Korea was 
we invested and empowered veterans to come home and run 
businesses. We need more of that and less of what is going on 
now. It is as simple as that.
    Mr. ALFORD. And, Ms. Fox, I think I heard you say in your 
previous answer to Mr. Meuser's question that the issue is not 
access to capital. It is the readiness. Please expand on that.
    Ms. FOX. Yes. Thank you for the question. Veterans are 
turned down at a rate about 6 percent higher than their 
civilian counterparts when it comes to capital. The issue is 
that veterans will not go back. Unlike their civilian 
counterparts, once they are turned down, that is it.
    Mr. ALFORD. Why is that?
    Ms. FOX. So, typically, it goes back to a high-trust 
organization, meaning that once they feel like they are not 
able to access a resource, they don't feel as comfortable going 
back, whereas a civilian might feel a little bit more 
comfortable just trying it again.
    In addition, if you look at limited networks and limited 
mentoring, because of the nature of PCSs, you look at the fact 
that they don't have as many people to lean on to say what 
should I have done there. And that is why we have to create 
transparency and connectivity so that they are trying to figure 
out their business and not the system.
    Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you to all of our witnesses here 
today for coming here. This is a very important issue, and I am 
so glad that our Chair and Ranking Member are taking leadership 
in trying to fix this issue because it is an issue worth fixing 
in my estimation. There is no better person to be able to 
start, maintain, and lead our small business community than 
veterans.
    And, with that, sir, I yield back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from the great State of 
California for 5 minutes.
    Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you 
and the Ranking Member for this hearing today to try and shed 
some light on what our veteran entrepreneurs need to start and 
grow their businesses. I appreciate our witnesses for being 
here today.
    As a veteran and former small business owner, I stand with 
you and I want all our veteran-owned businesses to succeed. But 
yet again, we are having another hearing with no representation 
from the SBA, and I am concerned at the SBA's continued absence 
and silence on issues in this matter--on this matter. Concerns 
raised by Members of this Committee and by my esteemed 
witnesses--or esteemed witnesses should not be ignored by those 
tasked with carrying out the laws passed by Congress.
    I am the Ranking Member on the Contracting and 
Infrastructure Subcommittee, and I can't get a straight answer 
from the SBA about the SBA's contracting programs. Veterans 
have personally shared with me that their small business 
contracts were canceled due to the administration's policies, 
and there was no action by the SBA to support them. So I know 
the SBA either doesn't care or is actively ignoring them.
    I join my colleagues in requesting that the SBA and the VA 
provide Congress with accurate data on the cuts at the VA and 
the impacts they had on service-disabled veteran-owned small 
businesses, and we have been met with silence. When I asked the 
administrator directly about changes to the FAR and 
specifically the Rule of Two, there was no way to tell if the 
SBA had been involved.
    The SBA instead has touted workforce cuts of 43 percent, 
which has resulted in fewer SBA contracting staff to support 
our veterans. The SBA has touted leaving major metropolitan 
areas because of politics with no regard for the thousands of 
veterans that would be abandoned. The SBA should be here to 
answer questions, and I hope the SBA gets serious about 
becoming an active partner in our work to support our veterans, 
entrepreneurs, and small businesses across this country.
    And, with that, I will start with questions. Just real 
quick, do any of you know how many veteran-owned or service-
disabled veteran-owned small businesses lost their federal 
contracts in 2025? No?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I think it was over 900.
    Mr. CISNEROS. Over 900. Thank you.
    Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, why is it important for veteran-
owned businesses that sole-sourced contracting thresholds be 
increased across SBA programs?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Thank you. When it comes to the 
veteran growing their business, sole sourcing is vital for them 
to continue to grow, getting that opportunity that they may not 
have previously had before. So being able to sole source to a 
veteran business who is able and capable to do that helps them 
with the small businesses win those contracts and also that the 
larger billion-dollar contracts that go to these corporations 
and actually gives the opportunity to the small business to 
grow.
    Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you. As you shared in your statement, 
veterans are often also women, minority, or are located in 
underutilized communities, and I want to ensure that the 
threshold for veterans and all small businesses reflects the 
current realities and that the tools to meet small business 
goals are available. That is why I am introducing legislation 
to streamline and increase the threshold across SBA programs.
    Is this something that veterans and business networks might 
consider supporting?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes.
    Mr. CISNEROS. All right. Thank you.
    Again, Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, we should all share the goals 
of supporting our veteran entrepreneurs in starting and growing 
their small businesses. Unfortunately, over the past year, the 
SBA has sought to drive a political wedge in that support and 
risks leaving veteran entrepreneurs in Democratic-led cities 
and States behind.
    When the SBA announced that it would leave Los Angeles, 
that meant moving away from over 35,000 veteran-owned 
businesses in the metropolitan area alone, according to the SBA 
Office of Advocacy. That is more than the State of Alabama, the 
State of Kentucky, and the State of Wyoming, as well as Iowa. 
35,000 veteran-owned businesses in Los Angeles alone.
    What is the potential impact on veteran entrepreneurs when 
the SBA seeks to abandon them in these cities?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Well, it would be devastating to the 
veteran business community. When you are taking away that 
instruction and that guidance to work with the federal 
government, it--you are putting a muzzle on the veteran 
business community so they can't find these opportunities or 
even find out how to find those opportunities.
    Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you.
    And just real quick, I also serve on Armed Services, and 
TAP needs to be fixed, and I want to work with all of you. So 
please come to my office and we can see how we can improve TAP. 
Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Wied from the great State of Wisconsin 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. WIED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of 
our witnesses for being here today and the important work that 
you do for our veterans. I would also like to thank Mr. 
Schmiegel and Mr. Lefebvre for your service to our country. 
Thank you.
    As veterans end their military service, many face 
difficulties entering the civilian workforce. In Wisconsin, we 
have over 300,000 veterans--with most being Vietnam war 
veterans, according to a 2022 study from the Wisconsin Veterans 
Chamber of Commerce--and over 1,700 nonprofits serving veterans 
in our State, which is eighth most out of any state in the 
nation. Despite the support that exists for veteran 
entrepreneurs from these organizations and from programs 
through the SBA and Department of War, many veterans have 
difficulty translating their military experience into the 
civilian world.
    I will start out with Mr. Schmiegel. I understand you are--
you frequent the great State of Wisconsin on occasion. Florence 
County?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir. We are just building a house in 
Florence County, my wife and I.
    Mr. WIED. Oh, that is great. So would you say you like 
Wisconsin or Virginia better, sir?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. With my wife listening, I would say the 
great State of Wisconsin.
    Mr. WIED. That is a great answer.
    Ms. FOX. Good answer.
    Mr. WIED. Thank you. I want to make that for the record, 
Mr. Chair. All right.
    But you brought up a good point. Since veteran unemployment 
has dropped to 3 percent thanks to great people like you and 
Mr. Lefebvre, how would you in your--and we talked about TAPs 
and the issues that you addressed there. How would you--could 
you reorient existing federal programs to better address some 
of the issues that you as veterans--and I am going to open it 
up to both of you, you and Mr. Lefebvre. Is that a possibility?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yeah. I would just say the first three 
businesses I ran were nonprofits. I hate the word 
``nonprofit.'' It is a for-purpose business. And I raised $100 
million in private sector capital. I don't think nonprofits 
should be funded by the government to do this work.
    I think, again, the answer lies with people like Mr. 
Lefebvre and myself who were Marines and are living and 
breathing the challenges that veteran entrepreneurs face. That 
is why we are creating, at the community level, a military-
thriving community playbook. That is why we are automating a 
tool kit that small business owners who are veterans and 
military spouses can use. I think the answer, again, lies with 
us. If that is the one takeaway, we need to give more access to 
veteran small business owners.
    And I promise you this, Mr. Wied. In the great State of 
Wisconsin, we are going to bring veteran small business owners 
in great numbers.
    Mr. WIED. That is great.
    Mr. Lefebvre?
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, sir. Great question. And I would 
differ a bit from my colleague here. I don't believe there 
should be a single point of failure. We are a component of the 
solution in terms of private industry, but there is a long 
record of federal programs being highly effective. How we can 
support this is not the addition of more programs. It is making 
a coherent link between the programs that exist today. It is 
about defining outcome-based reports and results of what is 
working and what isn't, what needs to be retooled.
    And so I think we have a phenomenal capability right now. 
It is just not streamlined. It is not coherent. It is 
unconnected, not just disconnected, and that is why it is so 
difficult without, as I mentioned, a single front door to come 
in to understand what the pathway and the map looks like ahead 
of us.
    Mr. WIED. I tend to listen to business owners, people that 
are out in the world signing the fronts of checks. Tell me how 
do we do that as Members of Congress. What is your suggestion 
for us?
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. One, I think we need to have a defined 
playing field. When we look at VSOs or nonprofits, the 
accelerators, or any program that has a mission, what are the 
outcomes? Are we meeting the existing goals? Is there a clearly 
defined goal currently? And so how we can do that, I think, 
upfront is to create a study. We can no longer build the plane 
as we are flying it, right? I think we need to understand what 
we are seeking out to do, have a true mission and a purpose, 
and we back plan from there. But we first have to understand 
where is it broken, where are things not connected, how can we 
connect and have those handoffs upfront.
    Mr. WIED. Mr. Schmiegel, would you like to follow up on 
that?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yeah. I think we have studied the problem 
long enough. I actually think we agree. I am starting with the 
fundamental concept. So, if it weren't a problem that big 
nonprofits and the same big corporations and the same big 
VSOs--we wouldn't be here today talking about historically low 
rates of veteran small business ownership.
    All I am saying is veteran small business owners don't have 
a seat at the table, so start with that. If we are part of the 
study, if we are providing both anecdotal and real data on our 
own businesses, what the challenges were, great. But I don't 
think the government should fund another study. They should be 
looking at us for the answers.
    Mr. WIED. I could not agree more. You are the answer. You, 
the business owners, the veterans that are out in the field out 
every day doing the work, and you need to have a seat at the 
table. I am glad you are here today. Thank you for having this 
hearing. And if I can ever be of assistance, please let me 
know. I look forward to seeing you in Wisconsin.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Dr. Morrison from the great State of 
Minnesota for 5 minutes.
    Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking 
Member Velazquez, for holding the hearing. Thanks so much to 
our witnesses for being here today.
    In addition to serving on this Committee, I have the honor 
of serving on the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs. My 
husband and my father-in-law are both Army combat veterans, and 
I firmly believe it is our duty here in Congress to provide 
veterans with the resources that they have earned, including 
ensuring they are supported in the transition from military 
life to civilian life.
    As we have heard today, many veterans choose to pursue 
entrepreneurship to start their own business. However, making 
this transition can be challenging for some due to a lack of 
access to capital, difficulty acquiring the necessary and 
relevant training, and trouble receiving contracting 
opportunities.
    So, Mr. Schmiegel and Mr. Lefebvre, thank you both so much 
for your service to our country, and thanks for being here 
today. Would you be willing to speak a little bit more about 
making that transition from military service to working at a 
nonprofit or in the private sector and if there were any 
programs or resources that were particularly helpful to you in 
making this transition?
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. I can start. It has been some years since I 
transitioned from the Marine Corps. The system then was not 
helpful to me. It was a check in the box. And I would venture 
to say that, for many right now, that is a persistent issue. It 
is a gate before they leave active duty.
    And so what does that mean? There may be some meaningful 
information that is within TAP. Again, those that are leaving 
and electing to take the entrepreneurial track because they 
have that burning desire, that is fantastic. But, otherwise, 
most veterans are looking at their benefits and what is next.
    And so I think what is imperative is to have a handoff. TAP 
is a class. It is a gate. But what happens thereafter? And it 
should not be voluntary. There should be an actual handoff to 
another program, another link in the chain that can help them 
along that continuum; otherwise, it just falls off.
    Ms. MORRISON. Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you.
    Mr. Schmiegel?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I would just add that TAP did absolutely 
nothing to encourage me to be an entrepreneur. I was 42 years 
old when I left the Marine Corps in 2009. If someone had told 
me then what I know now, there would be no doubt that I would 
have run more than five small businesses--three nonprofits, and 
two for-profits. I think, fundamentally, we are talking about 
the same thing.
    So, if we are going to invest government money, create a 
network of veteran small business owners that become a resource 
for aspiring entrepreneurs who are leaving the military, let's 
be honest. Let's not create false expectations and create an 
entitled post 9/11 veteran mindset. Not every servicemember is 
capable of running a business right after they leave the 
military.
    I started Hiring Our Heroes for E-5s and below, for junior-
enlisted Marines, soldiers, sailors, airmen to find meaningful 
employment. They are not going to have access to capital and 
they are not going to have the runway to own a business for the 
most part. Careerists, officers, staff NCOs--we should be 
talking to them at career-level schools, not only for 
themselves to become entrepreneurs and small business owners, 
but for them to educate and empower young enlisted men and 
women who are leaving the military about the opportunities that 
exist and open up their apertures. Ask them those three 
questions, the five things they need to thrive.
    We are not doing that because--when I was Lieutenant 
Colonel, even in the Marine Corps, I could not tell a young 
Marine what to do next. How could I know? I had never been in 
the private sector, which is the same reason a lot of nonprofit 
leaders who are talking about this who have never run a small 
business and have never been in the private sector aren't the 
solution either.
    So I think it is this network of mentors, of us veterans--
by veterans, for veterans--by veteran small business owners, 
for veteran small business owners--that is going to solve this 
problem.
    Ms. MORRISON. Thank you for sharing. I think there is a 
real opportunity there. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, during your testimony, you mentioned 
that nearly 90 percent of veteran-owned businesses have between 
zero and 15 employees, meaning that the vast majority are small 
businesses. You also noted that when the federal government 
consolidates or bundles smaller contracts, it can put those 
contracts out of reach of some small businesses, 
disproportionately harming veteran small businesses.
    Could you elaborate on why this is detrimental to veteran-
owned small businesses and what actions this Committee and SBA 
should take to ensure that federal contracts remain accessible 
to small businesses?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. Sure. Thank you. As small 
businesses are the backbone to America's economy, we feel that 
the veterans is the heart of that backbone. And so, with that, 
I think when you open up those opportunities and make them 
bite-sized contracts, that makes it more accessible for the 
smaller veteran business owner who is under a million dollars, 
which you find there is, I think, over--actually, 500,000--
which is over 60 percent of when we surveyed our veteran 
businesses.
    So, in order to have those $500,000 businesses grow to that 
million, 2 million, 10 million, you need to make sure that 
those contracts are able to be a starting point for them so 
that they can go and access----
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady's time is up.
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Oh, sorry. Thank you.
    Ms. MORRISON. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    I have more questions, Mr. Chair, but I yield my time. 
Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields her time back.
    I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of 
Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
    Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the Ranking 
Member, and to all of our servicemembers and veterans. Thank 
you for your service, and thank you to each and every one of 
you for what you do for our military and families each and 
every day.
    I guess my first question would be for Mr. Schmiegel. You 
mentioned a few different occurrences about not having veterans 
at the table during those conversations. I am a new Member, so 
I mean this genuinely. What are some examples that we could be 
doing with the SBA and in Congress to make sure that those 
veterans are seen and heard when they are going through the 
entrepreneurialship process, which is daunting to begin with, 
let alone transitioning from your service to the country and 
now looking to be an entrepreneur? Is there any specific 
examples that you can point out?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. My point was addressing the fact that small 
business owners ourselves don't have the access to influence 
the decision-making process to help servicemembers who are 
transitioning and even veterans who are in transition. I have 
had seven jobs since I left the Marine Corps. So we are always 
in transition. We transform ourselves. We earn the title 
soldier, sailor, airmen, Marine. We need to earn the title 
veteran, too.
    The point I was making, if you--again, if you look at other 
committees that are part of the House and the Senate, you don't 
see small business owners like us creating a voice and having a 
seat at the table. If you look on installations, it is the same 
big players that have preferred access. Small business owners 
aren't at TAP, small business owners aren't generally at hiring 
fairs, and small business owners aren't influencing and 
empowering young servicemembers to consider these 
opportunities, whether it is when they are transitioning or 
later in life. We are not planting the right seeds because we 
don't have access. That was the point.
    Mr. BRESNAHAN. So do you think it is that--you know, is it 
the access to lending opportunities? Is it the access to 
counsel? Like, you know, I am trying to think about--I was a 
highway contractor in my last life. I am new to political 
public service. But, you know, I was thinking about all the 
different hurdles and challenges that we had to go through to 
grow the company and to be able to expand at the different 
demographics, and it was daunting, and I can only imagine 
applying the same thing as a veteran. And thank you for your 
service once again.
    But is it, you know, making sure that we are driving and 
steering policies that are more inclusive to our veterans that 
are looking to take that next step?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes. And, to my point about committees like 
these on both the House and Senate side, including veteran 
small business owners routinely rather than the same 
nonprofits, the same VSOs, and the same big corporations that 
fund those same nonprofits and same VSOs. We should just have a 
seat at the table--at least one of us--on hearings like these. 
I think that would affect policy decisions. I think people 
would be more considerate about the problem that exists in this 
country.
    Listen, this is a national security imperative. 
Shipbuilding, sub building, semi-con, energy--the major 
industries have massive supplier diversity networks, and we are 
seeing veteran small business owners' ship crash. Not, like, 
decline. Crash. The reason this economy grew and the reason the 
United States realized excellence and became the strongest 
global power is because veteran small business owners came back 
from World War II, came back from Korea, and even came back 
from Vietnam, and they grew the economy. We need empowerment, 
not entitlement, and we need veteran small business owners as 
part of the solution.
    Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, thank you for that.
    I am going to pivot over to Ms. Fox. Obviously, you work 
with a plethora of veterans that leave their time in service 
and then pivot into the private sector or to be entrepreneurs. 
How do you navigate some of the mental health challenges, or 
are there any specific repetitive trends that you have noticed 
for someone pivoting from a longer tenure of service into the 
private space?
    Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. Currently, some of the 
fastest growing areas of veteran small business are those that 
have spent 20 years in service and then starting. When we look 
at mental health, we at the IVMF have several pillars, and we 
have one that is around community-coordinated care. How do we 
get the right person to the right resource?
    One thing that we do is we are backing everything that we 
do by data. So, after a program, we look at how many new 
connections did you make. In our CEOcircle program and our EBV 
programs, typically, about 98 percent of our graduates will say 
they made seven or more connections. What does that mean? It 
means that now I have an expanded network. I have expanded 
cheerleaders. And, as you speak about mental health, we 
actually track that in our entrepreneurs, and they have a 
higher sense of wellness than those who are not serving in this 
area because of that connectivity.
    So I do think that, you know, data is extremely important, 
and I do think that that is another way that we can include 
veteran voices in it by understanding exactly their needs and 
wants and delivering on that in programming.
    Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, thank you, again, all for being here.
    And I think, Mr. Schmiegel, you are taking the first step 
on being in the SBA Committee here, and thanks for taking the 
time.
    And, with that, I yield, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    Now, I recognize Mr. Olszewski from the great State of 
Maryland for 5 minutes.
    Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you 
to all of our witnesses today.
    I am just really passionate about this issue and grateful 
for the work that you all are doing in this really important 
space. I think that, across the board, we spend far too little 
time lifting up those who have given everything to this 
country, and I think it is high time that we do more to 
acknowledge that service instead of leaving people behind after 
that.
    So I guess, in addition to the conversation that we have 
been having today about what we can do from the business 
perspective, do you all have any thoughts about ways in which 
we can merge other veteran services with access to business so 
it sort of becomes a holistic approach to how we are meeting 
the needs of our veterans here in this country? And I am happy 
to just leave that as an open-ended question to anyone who 
wants to jump in there.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think what we are trying to model--I was 
part of the Presidential Leadership Scholars program, and my 
project as part of the PLS program was to model military-
thriving communities. This is a very complex and visionary 
concept because, if you cross the border from Virginia to North 
Carolina, there is a sign that says ``the most military-
friendly state in the nation.'' Well, what does friendly mean? 
Are you doing us a favor by giving us a job, letting us pay our 
taxes? Are you doing us a favor by letting us run our small 
businesses?
    So we are modeling military thriving across multiple 
stakeholder groups, across the public-private nonprofit sector, 
and really focused on outcomes. It is fine to attract people to 
your State. What really matters is you keep them there.
    And if you look at the State of Maryland, you have 14 
installations, right? So measuring how many servicemembers are 
transitioning each year from Maryland and how many are staying 
by creating a thriving community--not a friendly community, a 
thriving community--and measure what matters: Affordable 
housing, healthcare, dual incomes, not just the veteran but the 
military spouse.
    After ZeroMils did a Military Thriving National Change 
Forum at Georgetown in October of 2024, I went to 15 
communities. I can tell you what the best practices and lessons 
learned are. So we are modeling military-thriving communities, 
and the first State that executes that model will win the war 
for talent. They will win the war for business owners. They 
will win the war for civic assets. And I think this--this is a 
competition between governors, mayors, city councils. If they 
want our talent, if they want our revenue, they have to go from 
friendly to thriving.
    Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. Eighty two percent of 
entrepreneurs are still starting businesses because of 
opportunities, so ensuring that those opportunities still exist 
will be key.
    I think as we look at, again, how can we combine all these 
things, we host military entrepreneurship forums across the 
United States linking together nonprofits, corporations, and 
those who are not just VSOs in terms of how can we serve 
entrepreneurs, and we have to do so holistically, not only 
looking at social determinants of health, but challenges and 
connectivity as well. And I think that that is why we are 
launching a member council tomorrow that includes corporations, 
nonprofits, as well as veteran entrepreneurs to understand what 
can we be doing better from a policy ecosystem, connectivity, 
and collaboration.
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I was just going to agree with 
Misty. I mean, collaboration, working with other groups, 
knowing what other people are doing, you know, in a variety of 
different aspects, you know, from transitioning to start-ups to 
actually even succession planning is all valuable information 
that any veteran business needs to know. And if we work 
together, we can only help the veteran business community 
continue to thrive.
    Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I appreciate that very much. And our office, 
as I am sure many Members of this Committee, look forward to 
working with you on that holistic thriving, certainly in this 
space with small business, but all the ways that we can win 
that war for talent for America and for our communities.
    Just to close, Mr. Chairman, on that point of partnership, 
I think that is a really important theme there. You know, in 
good faith, we do try to communicate with our partners in the 
administration, and I know that, you know, I have sent letters 
of concern to VA Secretary Collins and have joined myself and 
individually, and it is frustrating when we are trying to 
advocate for all of these services and all of these 
opportunities to not have a Secretary be responsive to Members 
of Congress. I think that is the only way that we can, in good 
faith and in that partnership, really understand what they are 
doing and ways in which we can do better and be better.
    And so to the extent, Mr. Chairman, you and others are able 
to help us get those answers, we certainly appreciate that so 
that we can take the lessons learned from panelists like today 
and really move forward together. And, with that, I yield. 
Thank you all very much.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want 
to thank our witnesses for your testimony today.
    And if I could start with you, Mr. Schmiegel, I am curious. 
I want to talk a little bit about--we have seen recruitment 
efforts expand under President Trump's administration and 
delightfully so. We see more people wanting to join our Armed 
Services. And I am just curious. As our military plans to 
capitalize on that positive momentum, do you think 
communicating the advantages and opportunities for veterans to 
become entrepreneurs should be emphasized as more of a benefit 
in our nation's recruitment efforts?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. A hundred percent. I think the challenge 
that we have with recruitment--I wrote about this in an op-ed 
in The Hill a few weeks ago, and I said November 11 is not 
about serving veterans. November 11 is about veterans serving 
America.
    I think over time, since the Global War on Terror began, 
this proliferation of a broken veteran narrative has shaped 
propensity to serve and the willingness of young people. We 
have to tell the stories of successful small business owners, 
veterans who have gone back into society and have contributed 
to this country, the economy, and their communities. The more 
you tell young people that service leads to positive outcomes, 
the more likely they are to serve in future wars.
    Mr. JACK. Thank you very much.
    I noticed a positive reaction from you as well, Ms. Fox. I 
welcome thoughts from you on that.
    Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. I think that anytime 
you can lead with opportunity will be great. As I mentioned, 82 
percent of veteran entrepreneurs see that as an opportunity. 
And what we know is that, as you get out of the military, that 
sense of service and those peer-to-peer networks are paramount.
    We have the CEOcircle program that we run. Chris Lefebvre 
is a part of it. We have seen those graduates through those 
peer-to-peer networks get over $1.3 billion in capital and 
create over 650 jobs. So there is a huge amount of opportunity 
not only in the small business area but also as employees for 
those firms.
    I think one important thing is to make sure that they are 
not burdened by the regulations and other items that are taking 
away from the attention to starting and growing businesses but, 
obviously--as I said at the end of mine--that veterans have 
defended and built the American dream. They need their 
opportunity to make sure they can live it.
    Mr. JACK. Well said.
    And, Mr. Lefebvre, I am curious. As a veteran business 
owner, what additional training or educational opportunities do 
you wish you had received when you were still in the military 
that would have made the transition to becoming a business 
owner easier and more approachable?
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. At the time, nothing. It wasn't an idea that 
I had. Again, I did not know it was in the realm of the 
possible. And so, for me, offering an idea in TAP is a step 
forward. It is. But it has to start before then, the 
communication, the narrative. But the reality of taking 
specialized training, integration among a team, all of the 
leadership experience that is built over any servicemember's 
time--it needs to be able to be communicated that it does 
translate to the private sector. It does. And this is a viable 
option. But the communication has to start far before they are 
about to take their first step out the door.
    Mr. JACK. I am curious. Just in closing, as we wrap this 
hearing, Mr. Schmiegel, any closing thoughts and comments that 
you think should be punctuated as it relates to what we can do 
better to help serve our veteran business owners?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think, as much as possible, to talk to 
other Members in Congress. Whatever committees they are on, I 
think there is a fundamental responsibility to include veteran 
small business owners in conversations to get their input, to 
get their feedback, and to get the struggles that they turned 
into strengths, the challenges that they turned into 
opportunity, the trials that they turned into triumphs.
    I struggled myself with mental health issues after I left 
purpose-driven work at Hiring Our Heroes, but I found my way 
back to thriving. I found those five things that I needed in 
life. Not just meaningful employment, but a sense of purpose 
through service, a connected community and my tribe. I took 
better care of my health like I did when I was a Marine, and I 
am constantly seeking self-improvement. I want the same thing 
for every servicemember and every veteran.
    So I think small business owners are at the heart of 
growth, change, and impact, and we--we need a voice. We need a 
seat at the table. So, as much as you can encourage the HVAC, 
the SVAC, the Small Business Committee on the Senate side, 
Appropriations, anywhere that people will listen to us, I think 
we are going to make leaps and bounds improvements in what is 
happening right now with the decrease in small business 
ownership.
    Mr. JACK. Well, we are blessed to have sitting beside me a 
colleague in my freshman class, a veteran who is an incredible 
entrepreneur himself and an incredible business owner. So I am 
privileged to have that leadership on our Committee, and I 
think as--to you note, I hope more and more people get elected 
to Congress like Mr. Downing who have that incredible 
experience not just in the military but also the business life 
as well.
    Thank you very much. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Dr. Conaway from the great State of New 
Jersey for 5 minutes.
    Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    When looking to ensure that small businesses have access to 
capital, it is also important to study what barriers small 
businesses face when attempting to access that capital. As 
Members of Congress, it is essential that we find ways to 
remove those barriers in order to provide the equity of access 
for small businesses across the nation. One of the greatest 
obligations Congress has is to ensure that men and women who 
served our country have all the support that they need.
    As a veteran myself and a Member of the House Veterans' 
Affairs Committee, I was proud to introduce the SERVE Act 
alongside my colleagues Congresswoman Davids and Congressman 
Alford. This legislation commissions the Government 
Accountability Office to study and report on the ability of 
veteran and reservist small business owners to access credit. 
This bill additionally requires Interagency Task Force on 
Veterans Small Business Development and to--a report on an 
action plan to promote the programs available to veterans. It 
is important that this important piece of legislation passed 
the House on the 24th. However, much work needs to be done.
    Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, can you speak more on some of the 
unique issues that veterans face when starting the process to 
access capital?
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Access to capital is one of those 
funny things that when you need it, you can't find it, and when 
you don't need it, you know, you can get it. So, yeah, it is 
definitely something that a lot of our veteran businesses have 
struggled with, even ones that are quite successful.
    One of our veteran businesses was just telling us that he 
was--he has a $42-million business that he is trying to get 
access to capital to win more contracts, and he had a hard time 
actually accessing capital for these future contracts. He had 
to go several times and try different ways to access some more 
capital in order to win these contracts.
    So we cannot have access to capital be a barrier for the 
veteran and small business community when they need it. These 
are people who have--he has had a successful business. He has 
shown that he can, you know, repay these loans and this 
investment. So we do need to make sure that we are just not 
rejecting veteran businesses or any veteran businesses for 
capital on minor things. So we really do need to pay attention 
to what kind of veteran business or what kind of business it is 
and look at the bigger picture and access--and give them more 
access to capital when they need it.
    Mr. CONAWAY. Ms. Fox, you had a comment?
    Ms. FOX. I would just like to--yes. I would just like to 
add a few of the statistics behind it. Thirty seven percent of 
entrepreneurs do face difficulty accessing capital, but 52 
percent of all entrepreneurs say that they need more tailored 
financial products as their finances grow. And I think that 
that is really important, is that it will not be a one-size-
fits-all model. That is why we like to say it is about capital 
readiness. How can I get you ready for the right capital at the 
right time so that you can find it?
    And I think that is, again, back to navigation and credit 
repair at an earlier time, including during transition, so that 
we have a solid foundation so that business opportunity and 
business start-up is more of an option earlier. Thank you.
    Mr. CONAWAY. Go ahead.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir. I actually grew up in the State of 
New Jersey. My dad, a Vietnam-era veteran. I moved back when I 
was young, and I spent my formative years in Toms River, New 
Jersey. So it is great to see you.
    Mr. CONAWAY. Oh, friends there.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. And thank you for your service, too.
    I would just say we probably should look at what is 
happening in franchising versus just small business ownership 
in general. I mean, I think there are a number of opportunities 
there. There is a reason veterans own franchises at twice the 
rate of their civilian counterparts. And across all other 
businesses, we are seeing this nosedive, so we should study the 
two and look at the difference.
    ZeroMils is working with a company called Neighborly. It is 
the largest home service and maintenance company in the world. 
They were modeling military-thriving cultures. They have a goal 
of 20 percent new veteran franchise owners across the 
enterprise. It is 19 domestic brands representing 5,500 small 
business owners. Five hundred of them are veterans right now. 
The reason their programs are so successful is they provide 
better access to capital than a normal business owner.
    So think about the Vietnam-era veterans who are leaving 
their small businesses right now. That is why we see this 
nosedive, too. Let's say there was a veteran named Joe who owns 
a plumbing company. He could be handing that off to a younger 
veteran in franchising called Mr. Rooter, right? We have to 
think about these things and think about how we can streamline 
these processes.
    But I think we should study the two. There is a reason 
there is a difference, and any legislation that supports the 
franchising community should be considered as well.
    Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all 
for being here. This is a topic that is particularly 
interesting to me having been an entrepreneur, having served in 
the military, and having served on organizations that mentor 
transitioning servicemembers out of the military careers and 
into the private sector.
    And, you know, for me personally, you know, I am a little 
bit of an anomaly. I was building a national real estate 
company--a commercial real estate company when I got activated 
in 2005 and sent to Afghanistan. And I was in combat search-
and-rescue. My day started at sunset and ended at sunrise. So, 
during daylight, I was having wet-ink signature documents 
FedEx'd to Kandahar from conduit lenders as I was building my 
portfolio. So, you know, I have been in the trenches, you know, 
in more ways than one.
    But a couple things I want to talk about, and anybody who 
has served in the military understands this. You know, the 
military members--servicemembers are particularly suited for 
building small business. I mean, what are the issues that you 
have in starting a company? First of all, you have to have some 
risk tolerance. I mean, military, you understand risk 
tolerance. The other thing is you have to understand the value 
of teamwork and having the ability to put together a team and 
to depend on your team.
    And that is another thing that I think about often with 
these opportunities with servicemembers. When you are serving, 
when you are at the peak of your military career, you are the 
best person on this planet that knows how to do what you know 
how to do. You know your place. You know how to do your job. 
You know that you can depend on your team, and your team knows 
that they can depend on you.
    And you come out of that. You transition out of the 
military. Let's just face it. Most military members are not 
going to thrive being a greeter at a department store. You have 
to have something that drives you, something that has that 
risk, something where you are building a team and working on 
that team.
    So I think that, you know, the service community, you know, 
post service is particularly suited for this. And, you know, we 
have got about 1.9 million businesses across the United States 
that are veteran-owned. I have got about 12,000 in my home 
State of Montana. And I just really love this topic because it 
is something that is near and dear to me.
    I want to transition a little bit to discussing some of the 
barriers that veterans face when looking to start a business.
    Mr. Schmiegel, in your testimony, you mentioned that, for 
the first time since the end of World War II, veterans are less 
likely to own a small business than their civilian 
counterparts. You know, from your experience advising aspiring 
veteran entrepreneurs, why do you think this decline has 
occurred? Why do you think this has happened?
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Excuse me. Representative Downing, thank you 
for your service, too, sir. I appreciate your perspectives as 
an entrepreneur as well.
    I talked a little bit about this in my oral testimony. I 
think if you look at the GI Bill--post-World War II GI Bill 
versus today's GI Bill--there is a difference in empowering 
veterans who are coming home to own a small business versus 
post-9/11 veterans, which is more entitled. We are talking 
about their benefits, we are talking about traditional 
employment, and we are talking about education for a 4-year 
degree. We are completely missing the mark with the younger 
servicemembers who are leaving and with veterans and the 
opportunities that exist for them.
    So, in post-World War II GI Bill, there were low interest 
business loans. It is as simple as that. So, as we are 
investing money from the GI Bill, is there an option--is there 
an option for veterans to use their GI benefits to get the 
education, the training, and the capital they need to start a 
business like they did in World War II when 50 percent of 
veterans came home and started and operated a small business? 
That is the fundamental question.
    Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Thank you.
    Mr. Lefebvre, from your perspective as a veteran business 
owner, what factors do you believe have contributed to this 
decrease?
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question, and 
thank you for your service, sir.
    As you mentioned, and as I said in my testimony, this is 
not a talent problem. It is not a capability problem. I mean, 
the entrepreneurial system itself has evolved in such a way. It 
is so vast. It is so complex. And you have the transitioning 
servicemember that understands a truly codified system with 
guardrails on it--from SOPs, from culture, from mission-
driven--and they are leaving that completely scared of what is 
next.
    And so although we can operate in an environment that deals 
with volatility and uncertainty and combat, the thought of what 
happens in civilian life is fundamentally polar to that. And so 
I think the fact that there is not this road map, there is not 
a clear SOP or process--which, in the military, that is how we 
operate--it is even more uncertain. So I think that that fear 
and lack of certainty aids in it.
    Mr. DOWNING. Right. So I am going to move on a little bit 
in the interest of time.
    Despite developing skills in their time in the military, 
servicemembers often lack access to capital and networks needed 
for effective entrepreneurship when they retire. There are 
federal programs like the DOD's Transition Assistance Program, 
SBA's Office of Veterans Business Development, et cetera, 
helping this.
    So I am going to move to Ms. Fox. From your experience 
working with veterans through the Institute for Veterans and 
Military Families, how would you assess the current 
effectiveness of the SBA and its outreach to aspiring veteran 
entrepreneurs?
    Ms. FOX. I think right now, the challenge--thank you for 
the question. I think right now, the challenge with that 
outreach--in the interest of time--would be the connectivity. 
So making sure that veterans know about the resources and are 
ambassadors of the resources will be key.
    Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you. Unfortunately, I have run out 
of time. I can talk about this all day. But thank you all for 
your testimony.
    And, with that, Mr. Chair, I yield.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of New 
Hampshire for 5 minutes.
    Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much 
to our witnesses for being here today.
    Mr. Schmiegel, Mr. Lefebvre--tell us how to pronounce your 
name. I have heard it seven different ways.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Lefebvre.
    Ms. GOODLANDER. Lefebvre. Thank you. I want to thank you 
both for your service to our country and your continued service 
to our country as entrepreneurs and what you are doing for our 
small businesses.
    This is such an important topic. I serve on the House Armed 
Services Committee, and I am really grateful that you are here 
today. When I think about the transition from service to start-
up, it is really the ultimate expression and continuation of 
patriotism in its purest form, and I am very focused and 
committed to doing everything I can on this Committee and on 
the Armed Services Committee to make the changes that we know 
we need to see.
    You know, I am the proud daughter of a Navy veteran who 
went on to start a small business. I served in the Navy. And 
every single day on this job, I get to see in my great State of 
New Hampshire what veterans are doing for our small business--
for our small businesses and for our economy in New Hampshire. 
And, in New Hampshire, we are very lucky. We are outperforming 
the national average of veteran-owned small businesses. We have 
got more than 8,000 of them across our State. They are 7 
percent of small businesses overall, which is above the 
national average.
    But, as you point out very powerfully, when we look over 
time and in our history, you know, at the height of just after 
the Second World War when the GI Bill was written in a way that 
was going to be most useful to us, 50 percent of servicemembers 
went on as veterans to start small businesses. We have talked 
about the reasons why that is the case. You know, this is--it 
is the teamwork, it is the ability to transform challenges into 
opportunities, it is the basic focus on problem-solving. You 
see a problem, and you find a way to fix it.
    And I just want to say I recently had a chance to spend 
some time with a veteran who started a small business in New 
Hampshire. He really put everything he learned and everything 
he did to serve our country in the military into starting a 
small business. He saw a problem, which is that our country 
relies on China and Russia for critical minerals in a way that 
is very dangerous to our national security. He saw specifically 
that germanium, a critical mineral that is used in optics that 
keeps our servicemembers equipped, could be recycled and in a 
way that was actually going to help our bottom line for our 
economy and for our national security. And he started a small 
business that actually recycles germanium and could be a huge--
of huge value to our country. So this is one of many examples 
that we see.
    But one of the things I hear again and again is that the 
Transition Assistance Program--and I have heard it from both of 
you today--the Transition Assistance Program, or TAP, is of 
very little value to most veterans who go on to start small 
businesses.
    I want to ask you both, having gone through that program, 
was there anything that worked in it, and can we count on you 
to help us think through the changes that need to be made to 
TAP to really make it worth our while? This is a program that 
should be doing a lot more work than it is doing now for our 
country.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you for your question, and thank you 
for your service. As you also went through TAP, you likely have 
an individual experience.
    What I would offer--I did get some benefit out of it. 
Thinking back--and, again, I exited in 2008, 2009 timeframe--it 
was a very different TAP then than it is now. And so I did 
learn about education and benefits. And so for me looking back, 
in honesty, that was the sole benefit.
    And one of the primary challenges with the TAP program 
right now is it is a one-size-fits-all solution for every 
servicemember regardless of rank, specialty, and experience. 
And that is really challenging to be effective when it is 
simply a one-size-fits-all. What is for a lieutenant colonel 
when he is retiring and coming out of TAP and a PFC that is 
exiting after 3 years--those are two very different needs, and 
it just isn't an effective program as it is written now to 
cover that wide breadth.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think TAP has evolved a lot, to Mr. 
Lefebvre's point. There is an executive TAP course that kind of 
creates that differentiation so that careerists--officers and 
staff NCOs that serve for 20 or more years--have the 
opportunity to learn about these opportunities at greater rates 
than some of our junior-enlisted folks that are in the 
military.
    I think this is--again, I don't want to be contrarian, but 
closing apertures by allowing the same organizations to impact 
TAP with a GS-12 who had never been in the private sector or 
even a nonprofit leader--giving them access over people who are 
actually living and breathing the challenges is the problem. We 
need to open apertures. We need to help servicemembers make 
better, more informed decisions based on, like, what are their 
strengths? What are their weaknesses? Like CliftonStrengths, 
right? What do you want to do with the next chapter of your 
life?
    The problem that we have is we put in their brains that 
they need entitlements when they just need to be empowered. 
They earned the title just like you did, right? You earned the 
title sailor. You earned the title veteran, just like you are 
serving today. That is what I want them to know.
    And that directly relates to the next generation serving 
our country. They see us as broken, too. Sixty two percent of 
young people in America--this is DOD's figure from 2023--think 
that every veteran and every servicemember leaving the military 
will have a psychological disorder.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up.
    Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I thank our witnesses, and I yield 
back. I look forward to working with you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
    I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the great Northern 
Mariana Islands for 5 minutes.
    Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
the witnesses for making time to be with us today. So as the 
Chairman has said, I am from the Northern Mariana Islands, and 
the GAO reports that we have the second highest enlistment rate 
in any State or territory, second only to Guam. Right.
    Which means that in a couple of years most of the people in 
my community are going to be veterans. And there isn't a single 
household in the CNMI now that does not have a veteran living 
in that household.
    I am sitting here and I was preparing for today's hearing 
and I was looking up some studies that have been done with 
regards to some of the barriers that vets face when it comes to 
financial literacy and small business lending.
    And this 2023 report states that the biggest barrier 
basically is building credit and financial history, challenges 
obtaining financing from large banks, limited networks, 
mentoring or business relationships, low representation in SBA 
back loans, weak program, oversight and inconsistent support 
from SBA.
    But when they conduct these reports there are no 
suggestions sometimes with regards to how do we fix it. What is 
the policy change. And I want to do less talking and hear from 
you, each of you to give your insight. And we will start with 
you, Mr. Schmiegel.
    Mr. SCHMIEGEL. First of all, I think you hit a really 
important point, like my dad was a Marine, my son is a Marine, 
I am a Marine, so this handoff from generation to generation 
needs to be addressed, too, and we need to make sure that we 
continue those legacies of service.
    You know, for me, the opportunity lies with actionable 
solutions. So I made a point earlier in my testimony that I am 
not crying in my milk, like I am literally creating actionable 
solutions with a number of stakeholders in communities. So we 
will be in Charlotte, we will be in Dallas, we will be in 
Southern California modeling the solution.
    I think small business owners are at the heart of this, and 
we are going to mobilize big businesses, nonprofits, government 
agencies at the State and local level where this will be 
solved, and then replicated in other places. So the solution, 
again, is the most important thing.
    And in the absence of anything changing, we are going to 
create a seat for veteran small business owners at the local 
level, model it, create the first military thriving region of 
the country, and then show people what right looks like. It 
will be the small business owners that will answer the problems 
that exist in this country.
    Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you.
    Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. And to add to that a 
little bit, if you really look at what gives strength in 
capital readiness, credit and underwriting, coaching, I think 
that we have some opportunities to create veteran specific 
underwriting guidance that might look at nontraditional forms 
as capital and revenue streams as qualifying as income.
    I think that we also have to look at what are the amounts 
that veterans are going for. So if you look at startup, it is 
about $25,000. And if you look at scale, it is $50,000 or more. 
That is typically not a bankable amount. So there is a 
continuum of capital access that needs better education around 
when do you go to the right part of capital, and at what time 
so that we can lessen the amount of denial.
    As I mentioned earlier, veterans are denied at about 6 
percent higher than their civilian counterparts, and that right 
there is critical because once that denial happens, it starts 
to shut down the opportunity of business ownership.
    So I think through a connected network and through 
resources that can offer in-kind provisions so that veterans 
aren't having to spend every dollar on every small thing, and, 
also, shared peer-to-peer networks we will solve for capital 
access because veterans will then better understand what 
resource do I go to, how do I get ready for it, and how can I 
access it. And that is a big challenge that we have right now, 
that veterans will look for capital in the wrong places and 
that will hurt their chances to grow their businesses.
    Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you. Mr. Lefebvre.
    Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, ma'am. I think the direct answer to your 
question is to look in the Veteran Entrepreneurship Empowerment 
Act already. I mean, there is a waiver of an SBA guarantee fee 
for loans less than or equal to a million dollars, there are 
lowered down payments and equity injection requirements for 
small loans, as Ms. Fox is talking about, and mandated data 
collection and transparency on those SBA loans, for the direct 
answer to the question.
    But you mentioned something that is potentially far more 
important when we think about the continuum here, it is 
financial literacy. And so what are we doing while veterans 
while still active duty are broadening the nature of what they 
know. It is too late when they have exited and now they are 
trying to figure out the parameters of a loan and why they are 
not qualifying for it.
    Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I was going to agree, pathway to 
credit repair, sometimes when you are looking for a loan as a 
small business and you don't have any options, you have to go 
to a nontraditional and the interest rates will kill you. So, 
you know, looking for financial literacy so you don't have to 
go to those nontraditional loan places. Thanks.
    Ms. KING-HINDS. I am out of time. Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. And I want 
to thank our witnesses today. It has been a great panel, and we 
appreciate all of you for your testimony and for appearing 
before us today.
    Without objection, Members have five legislative days to 
submit additional materials and written questions for the 
witnesses to the Chair which will be forwarded to the 
witnesses. And I would like to ask the witnesses to please 
respond promptly if that happens.
    If there is no further business, without objection, this 
Committee is adjourned. May God bless, and have a great holiday 
and Christmas season for you.
    [Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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