    [House Hearing, 119 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                     FROM SERVICE TO STARTUP: EMPOWERING
                            VETERAN ENTREPRENEURS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                 UNITED STATES
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  HEARING HELD
                               DECEMBER 10, 2025

                                   __________

                   [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                Small Business Committee Document Number 119-025
                 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

                                     ______

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    62-205                       WASHINGTON : 2026

                       HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                        ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                            PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                            DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                             BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                               JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                             MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                             NICK LALOTA, New York
                            BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
                              TONY WIED, Wisconsin
                          ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
                              BRIAN JACK, Georgia
                             TROY DOWNING, Montana
                 KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
                             DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
                            JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
                   NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                           MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                           HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                          LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
                            GIL CISNEROS, California
                           KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
                            GEORGE LATIMER, New York
                             DEREK TRAN, California
                           LATEEFAH SIMON, California
                           JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
                            HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
                        MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

                     Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director
                     Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Roger Williams..............................................     1
    Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     2

                                   WITNESSES

    Mr. Kevin M. Schmiegel, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer,
      ZeroMils, Alexandria, VA.......................................     5
    Ms. Misty Fox, Director, Entrepreneurship and Small Business,
      D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families,
      Syracuse, NY...................................................     7
    Mr. Christopher Lefebvre, President and Chief Executive Officer,
      ISI Professional Services, Sterling, VA........................     9
    Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, Chief Executive Officer, The
      Veterans In Business (VIB) Network, San Diego, CA..............    11

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statements:
        Mr. Kevin M. Schmiegel, Co-Founder and Chief Executive
          Officer, ZeroMils, Alexandria, VA..........................    43
        Ms. Misty Fox, Director, Entrepreneurship and Small Business,
          D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families,
          Syracuse, NY...............................................    47
        Mr. Christopher Lefebvre, President and Chief Executive
          Officer, ISI Professional Services, Sterling, VA...........    57
        Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, Chief Executive Officer, The
          Veterans In Business (VIB) Network, San Diego, CA..........    73
    Questions for the Record:
        None.
    Answers for the Record:
        None.
    Additional Material for the Record:
        Defense Credit Union Council (DCUC) Letter...................    79
        American Legion (AL) Letter..................................    82

                       FROM SERVICE TO STARTUP: EMPOWERING
                              VETERAN ENTREPRENEURS

                                  ----------

                          WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2025

                      House of Representatives,
                   Committee on Small Business,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:08 a.m., in Room
    2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams
    [chairman of the Committee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van
    Duyne, Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Wied, Bresnahan, Jack, Downing,
    King-Hinds, Schmidt, Patronis, Velazquez, Scholten, McIver,
    Cisneros, Morrison, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, Conaway,
    and Goodlander.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to
    recognize Mr. Patronis for a prayer.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Please bow your heads. Dear God, we gather
    here today. We have to do the people's work. We need your
    wisdom. We need your guidance. We need your strength. The
    decisions that we are looking at making are going to affect
    millions of people. They aren't easy. I hope that we do this
    right by the folks we serve but also right by you. Please look
    out for our families, as we appreciate their sacrifices, as we
    are doing the work of the people, and let us make sure that we
    always realize what is important for those that we get to serve
    and never lose sight of that. Amen.
        Please face the flag. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of
    the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it
    stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and
    justice for all.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. A matter of personal privilege, real
    quick, I want to remind everybody we have our Christmas party
    reception tomorrow 4 o'clock to 6 o'clock. Everybody has got
    something going, but you need to be here because we are going
    to have a drawing. We are going to draw for new car. Okay.
    Everybody signed up for that. Right here.
        Good morning, everyone. I appreciate everybody being here.
    I want to now call the Committee on Small Business to order.
        Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
    recess of the Committee at any time.
        I now recognize for myself for my opening statement. I want
    to welcome, again, to today's hearing, ``From Service to
    Startup; Empowering Veteran Entrepreneurs.'' I want to thank
    our witnesses for joining us today.
        And, to our veteran witnesses and Committee Members, thank
    you for your service.
        In the United States, we believe in taking care of veterans
    and their families with real opportunities that honor their
    service. Today there is about 1.6 million veteran-owned small
    businesses across the nation, which represent 5.3 percent of
    all U.S. businesses. They generate more than $900 billion in
    revenue and employ 3.2 million Americans.
        Our servicemembers have been willing to sacrifice their
    time, opportunities, and even their very lives for our nation.
    Yet, when they return to civilian life, many feel they are
    playing catchup. While veterans were serving their country,
    their peers were going to school, gaining skills in
    apprenticeships, and expanding their professional experience.
    And, when returning from their life of service, veterans must
    navigate transferring their military skills to the workplace.
    And, unlike their civilian peers, veterans often lack the
    credit history to access capital they need to start a small
    business. And, when they leave the military, they lose the
    built-in support network and mission that shaped their daily
    lives, forcing them to rebuild community and connections from
    the ground up.
        Simply put, when returning to civilian life, veterans are
    searching for their new mission. Veterans and their families
    are some of the most capable, resilient, and driven people in
    this country. They are innovators, entrepreneurs and leaders,
    and with the right tools and opportunities, they can overcome
    their obstacle or setback.
        Over the years, a variety of programs have been established
    to support our veterans. The Department of Defense's Transition
    Assistance Program, or TAP, and the SBA's Boots to Business
    program play a crucial role, an important role in that mission.
        And Boots to Business, while helping returned
    servicemembers find their next mission, is entrepreneurs by
    teaching how to get started and grow a business. I am proud
    that this Committee led the way in the fiscal year 2025 NDAA to
    make Boots to Business a permanent resource for our veterans.
        And, like you will hear from our witnesses today, veteran
    leaders in the private sector continue to step up in ways
    government simply can't, offering peer mentorship, business
    guidance, and connections that make all the difference in the
    world. Their contributions demonstrate that veteran
    entrepreneurs thrive when they have success and access to
    structured training, strong peer networks, and pathways to
    capital.
        As a Committee, we have an important role in identifying
    gaps, demanding accountability, and ensuring federal programs
    deliver results for veteran entrepreneurs. By reinforcing this
    partnership between the federal government, the veteran
    community, and the private sector, we can continue innovating
    barriers and opening doors for every veteran entrepreneur
    seeking their next mission.
        So I want to thank all of you again. I want to thank you
    for joining us today. I want to thank you for what you have
    done for our country. I look forward to the conversation ahead.
        I now recognize my friend, the distinguished Ranking Member
    for this Committee, Ms. Velazquez from New York.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the
    committee convening this important hearing today on how we can
    better assist and empower the veteran business community.
        The committee has a long bipartisan tradition supporting
    veteran entrepreneurs as they start, build, and grow their
    businesses. I am working to create an environment that provides
    the opportunity for success.
        Last year, this Committee worked in a bipartisan fashion
    with our colleagues on the Armed Services Committee to codify
    the Boots to Business Program in the National Defense
    Authorization Act. Boots to Business is offered as part of the
    DOD's Transition Assistance Program to provide targeted
    information on training to help servicemembers turn an idea
    into a business plan. Boots to Business is an important and
    effective program: 22,000 veteran servicemembers and military
    spouses participated in fiscal year 2024.
        Unfortunately, many other programs and services that SBA
    provides are less secure, and veteran-owned firms are not
    exempt from the difficult environment created by this
    administration's policies, including, and especially, tariffs.
        In their first budget request, this administration
    attempted to eliminate funding for the SBA Veteran Business
    Outreach Centers. VBOCs are critical resources that provide
    entrepreneur development assistance to veteran-owned small
    businesses across the country.
        When I talk to veteran-owned small businesses and their
    advocates, I hear many of the same concerns as other small
    businesses, that access to capital and the ability to secure
    the amount of capital they need can be a challenge, as well as
    reaching new customers, hiring the right employees, and
    contracting with the federal government.
        We know that among veteran-owned firms there are
    underserved communities in particular, female veterans and
    veterans returning to rural communities.
        There are unique issues for veteran entrepreneurs,
    including accessing local resources after moving around the
    country and the world for so many years. VBOCs and other
    specific programs have targeted expertise and resources that
    can assist these firms in reaching their full potential. We
    must continue to ensure they have the necessary funding and
    support to provide assistance.
        I look forward to hearing from the panel about what is
    working for veteran-owned small businesses and what gaps we can
    fill to ensure that the right services are available and
    accessible when needed.
        I want to take this opportunity to welcome all of you, and
    to thank you for being here this morning. Thank you. I yield
    back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        And I will now introduce our witnesses. Our first witness
    here with us today is Mr. Kevin Schmiegel. Did I say it right?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Mitch Schmiegel is the co-founder
    and chief executive officer of ZeroMils in Alexandria,
    Virginia. Mr. Schmiegel spent 20 years in the Marine Corps
    holding senior operational leadership roles and training
    Marines for combat deployments, managing large-scale personal
    assignments, and supporting top military leaders in high-stakes
    environments.
        After returning from the Active Service, he founded Hiring
    Our Heroes at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, where he created a
    nationwide model to connect veterans and military spouses with
    meaningful employment.
        He later served as chief executive officer of Operation
    Gratitude, expanding the organization's mission to support
    servicemembers, veterans, and first-responders across the
    country.
        Mr. Schmiegel holds a bachelor of arts in English
    literature. And I am asking you how you say it. So make sure I
    say it right. Okay. From College of Holy Cross, and a master's
    of science in management from the Naval Postgraduate School. I
    want to thank you for being here and thank you for your
    service.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Chairman Williams.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Let me move--okay. You are fine. Let me
    finish this, and we will come back. Okay.
        Our next witness here with us today is Misty Fox. Ms. Fox
    is Director of Entrepreneurship and Small Business at Syracuse
    University, D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military
    Families in Syracuse, New York.
        Ms. Fox has spent nearly a decade building one of the
    nation's strongest ecosystems for veteran entrepreneurs,
    coordinating collaboration between Fortune 500 companies and
    more than 34,000 veteran-owned businesses.
        Prior to joining the Institute, Ms. Fox served as manager
    of Oklahoma State University's Riata Center for
    Entrepreneurship, where she established a multi-university
    consortium, secured grant funding, and developed accelerator
    programs.
        Ms. Fox holds a master of business administration and a
    bachelor of science in business management and marketing from
    Oklahoma State University and is an alumni of President George
    H. W. Bush Stand-To Veteran Leadership Program.
        We are looking forward to your testimony, and thank you for
    everything you have done.
        Our next witness is Mr. Christopher Lefebvre. Mr. Lefebvre
    is the president and chief executive officer of ISI
    Professional Services in Sterling, Virginia.
        Mr. Lefebvre manages a team of more than 50 professionals
    who support federal agencies across program and project
    management, professional, and administrative services,
    logistics, and facility support, and real estate consultation.
        As part of his work at ISI, Mr. Lefebvre served in the
    United States Marine Corps. His distinguished military service
    includes numerous declarations, among them the Joint Service
    Commendation Medal, the Navy Commendation Medal with Bronze
    Star, the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal, and campaign
    medals for service in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the global war on
    Terrorism.
        Mr. Lefebvre earned his master of business administration
    from the Robert H. School of Business at the University of
    Maryland and his bachelor of arts in government from Campbell
    University.
        I want to thank all of you for being here. I now recognize
    the Ranking Member from the great State of New York, Ms.
    Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing
    before us today.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my pleasure
    to introduce our witness, Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner--like
    Christina Aguilera, the singer.
        Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner is the CEO of the Veterans In
    Business Network. She brought more than 30 years of expertise
    from her family's second-generation SDVOSB printing business to
    the VIB Network.
        The network leads networking, matchmaking, and outreach
    initiatives designed to expand opportunities and strengthen
    engagement between veteran-owned businesses, corporations, and
    government agencies.
        The VIB Network has received numerous awards, including the
    2021 Calvert Award for Business Excellence and the 2019 Best in
    Class Trailblazer Award.
        Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner has been honored for her work
    championing veteran entrepreneurs with the Veteran's Business
    Enterprise Champion of the Year Award, the Leadership Award,
    and the Women of Excellence Awards, an appointment to serve on
    the SBA Advisory Committee on Veterans Business Affairs. Thank
    you for being here. Welcome.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
        I now, again, want to say thanks to all of you. And, before
    I recognize the witnesses, I would like to remind them that
    their whole testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. If
    you see the light turn red in front of you, it means your 5
    minutes has concluded, and you should wrap up your testimony.
    And you will hear this if you keep going. The louder this gets,
    it says you need to shut it down. Okay. And it will go fine.
        And, also, I want to say, you will see Members moving in
    and out. There are a lot of hearings going on today. And so, if
    one of them leaves while you are speaking, it has nothing to do
    with what you said or anything; it is just we will be moving
    around. So thank you for understanding that.
        So I now recognize Mr. Schmiegel for his 5 minutes for
    opening remarks.

     STATEMENTS OF KEVIN SCHMIEGEL, CO-FOUNDER AND CEO, ZEROMILS;
       MISTY FOX, DIRECTOR, ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND SMALL BUSINESS,
        D'ANIELLO INSTITUTE FOR VETERANS AND MILITARY FAMILIES;
       CHRISTOPHER LEFEBVRE, PRESIDENT AND CEO, ISI PROFESSIONAL
     SERVICES; AND REBECCA AGUILERA-GARDINER, CEO, THE VETERANS IN
                           BUSINESS NETWORK.

                      STATEMENT OF KEVIN SCHMIEGEL

        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
    Velazquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee. My name
    is Kevin Schmiegel, and I am the co-founder and CEO of a
    service-disabled veteran small business called ZeroMils.
        As a Marine veteran and entrepreneur, I am honored to
    represent the 1.6 million veteran small businesses owners in
    America. My transition from the military was seamless, not
    because of the Transition Assistance Program but through
    relationships built over 20 years in uniform.
        General Jim Jones, who I served with at NATO and in the
    Middle East, became my mentor and biggest advocate in
    transition. He introduced me to the president and CEO of the
    U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Tom Donohue, who gave me my first
    civilian job.
        Tom became my mentor, too. He taught me how to be a CEO,
    and he empowered me to start my own entrepreneur journey in
    2011 as the founder of Hiring Our Heroes at the U.S. Chamber's
    Foundation. HOH was just the beginning.
        After leaving the Chamber, I went on to lead two other
    national nonprofits. Over a decade, those three organizations
    impacted 4 million servicemembers, veterans, first-responders,
    and their families. All told, we raised $100 million in private
    sector investment.
        In March of 2022, my journey as an entrepreneur took a
    different path when I cofounded ZeroMils with a leader I have
    known for 30 years, retired Marine Colonel Paul Cucinotta. Paul
    and I started ZeroMils in response to growing trends in the
    public and private sectors that shaped a broken veteran
    narrative, one that has negatively impacted propensity to serve
    among American youth. Our mission at ZeroMils is to create
    military-thriving cultures and communities, not military-
    friendly.
        And veteran-owned small businesses are at the very heart of
    this movement because we fundamentally believe we must play a
    larger role in impacting our country, our economy, and our
    communities.
        According to the most recent SBA report, there are 1.6
    million veteran small businesses in America that generate
    nearly $1 trillion in revenue, employing 3.2 million people
    with a payroll of $179 billion.
        While these data tell a good news story, they represent an
    increasingly alarming trend: For the first time since the end
    of World War II, veterans are less likely to own a small
    business than civilians. 50 percent of World War II veterans
    went on to start or operate a business after returning home,
    defining a period of time that was not only an entrepreneurial
    boom for veterans, it marked an economic boom for the United
    States. This was the direct result of the GI bill providing
    low-interest business loans, along with educational and
    vocational training that helped veterans gain access to capital
    and the necessary skills to launch and grow their businesses.
        In stark contrast, less than 5 percent of post-9/11
    veterans have started a business, and the total number of VOSBs
    has declined dramatically from 11 percent of all businesses in
    2014 to an all-time low today.
        There are several factors causing this decline. First, the
    post-9/11 GI bill is structured to support education and
    training with no equivalent benefit for low-interest business
    loans, making it more challenging than ever for newer veterans
    to access capital.
        Second, there is a fundamental difference in the advice,
    support and services provided in transition. TAP is about
    entitlement, not empowerment.
        And finally, veteran small business owners don't have a
    seat at the table. We don't have a seat at the table at TAP. We
    don't have a seat at the table addressing systemic challenges
    that veterans face, even when we are best positioned to address
    them. And we don't have a seat at the table in forming
    legislation and policy decisions that impact our community.
        So, in the absence of these opportunities, my company,
    ZeroMils, is creating our own table for veteran small
    businesses. In 2026, with our military-thriving action
    coalition partners, we are hosting national and major events.
    We are modeling actionable community playbooks, and we are
    creating a military-thriving small business toolkit with the
    goal of reaching thousands of aspiring and current veteran
    entrepreneurs, helping them grow and thrive.
        To close, I have three suggested next steps for this
    Committee: One, explore ways to improve access to capital for
    veterans who want to start a business or franchise, including
    but not limited to the GI bill; two, encourage other Committees
    that impact veteran transition and quality of life to give
    veteran small businesses a seat at round tables and a voice in
    hearings; and, three, increase access for VOSBs on military
    installations, at TAP, at hiring fairs, and at career-level
    schools.
        Together these recommendations will educate and empower
    servicemembers and veteran entrepreneurs to make better, more
    informed decisions about the opportunities available to them.
    They will increase the number of post-9/11 veteran business
    owners, and they will enable current ones to play a larger role
    in making our country, our economy and our communities
    stronger.
        Thank you, again, for this opportunity to speak today and
    for giving veteran small businesses like ours a voice and a
    seat at the table. I look forward to your questions and
    continuing to serve this Committee in any way possible in the
    future.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        I now recognize Ms. Fox for her 5 minutes of opening
    remarks.

                         STATEMENT OF MISTY FOX

        Ms. FOX. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and
    Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity today
    to testify alongside my colleagues and friends here.
        I appreciate your leadership for empowering veterans to
    continue their life of service through entrepreneurship and, of
    course, your ongoing support for Boots to Business.
        My name is Misty Stutsman Fox, and I am the Director of
    Entrepreneurship and Small Business at the D'Aniello Institute
    for Veterans and Military Families at Syracuse University.
        Each year, we support tens of thousands of transitioning
    servicemembers, veterans, and military spouses as they build
    businesses, careers, and economic mobility. Veteran
    entrepreneurship isn't just an outcome; it is an identity.
        For many veterans, entrepreneurship is more than a career
    choice. It is a continuation of service. It provides renewed
    purpose, self-direction, and the ability to keep contributing
    after they transition to civilian life.
        Veterans are proven entrepreneurs. Historically they have
    been more likely than their civilian peers to start businesses,
    and when they do, they outperform.
        Veteran-owned businesses generate $1.3 trillion in annual
    receipts, employ more than 4.4 million Americans, and pay over
    $233 billion in payroll.
        Here is the bottom line: Veterans outperform their civilian
    counterparts when barriers are removed. Veteran-owned
    businesses are less likely to close. They have an 8.2 percent
    lower risk of failure, and nearly 98 percent of veterans credit
    their military developed skills, planning, leadership, and
    pressure-tested decision-making for helping them overcome
    business obstacle. Military service trains you to make critical
    decisions with incomplete information. That is exactly what
    entrepreneurs do every single day.
        Barriers are not about talent. They are about access. But,
    despite their strengths, veterans face barriers they shouldn't
    have to navigate alone.
        First, a fragmented support landscape. Veteran
    entrepreneurs often describe the ecosystem as a maze and not a
    map. Without coordination across federal agencies, VSOs, State
    programs and nonprofits, too many veterans are left to guess
    which door to enter.
        Second, rural challenges: 39 percent of veteran
    entrepreneurs serve in rural economies where the entrepreneur
    may be the employer, the mentor, the community anchor, but
    broadband gaps, fewer peer connections, and limited technical
    assistance stack the deck against growth.
        Third, access to market opportunities. Here is what keeps
    me up at night, veterans are ready to compete. They just need
    clear pathways and access to capital. But the bigger question
    is, are we creating policies that open doors or close them?
        Two-thirds of veterans use personal or family savings as
    their primary access to capital at the foundational phase--not
    loans, not SBA programs. 88 percent of those veterans find the
    procurement landscape difficult to navigate.
        Veterans know how to serve. What they need is a fair shot
    and not a shortcut. To meet this moment, I ask Congress to
    consider four solutions that unlock economic potential, rather
    than create new programs for programs' sake.
        First, strengthen SBA's Office of Veteran Business
    Development by fully funding VBOCs and public-private
    partnership grants. Boots to Business alone cannot meet veteran
    entrepreneur's needs.
        Second, strengthen capital readiness and access, coaching,
    credit repair and veteran-specific underwriting.
        Third, ensure policies expand opportunities rather than
    limit it. We need thoughtful policy that enables veteran-owned
    businesses to compete fairly in the procurement landscape,
    streamline compliance, expanded rule infrastructure,
    transparent requirements, and meaningful feedback loops that
    build capacity rather than create barriers.
        And, fourth, fund data collection that measures real
    outcomes from the SBA programs and resource partners, not just
    dependents. Veterans don't need guaranteed success. They need
    guaranteed access.
        At IVMF, we operate over 11 training programs and
    navigation services that have supported nearly 100,000 veteran
    entrepreneurs. We have helped with 35,000 entrepreneurs get to
    the navigation that they need. We know that programs like
    CEOcircle, EDGE, Entrepreneurship Bootcamp for Veterans
    illustrate what is possible when government, banks,
    corporations act as partners and not parallel efforts. We know
    that public-private partnerships work.
        Take Michael Bower, a Marine Corps veteran, through our
    program Michael connected with SCORE, SBDC, as well as CPAs to
    acquire Eagle Metalcraft, a sheet metal manufacturing company.
    He doubled sales and workforce in 3 years, and he was named the
    2023 SBA veteran small business of the year. He said, ``This
    help is really what changed our ability to add jobs.'' That is
    return on investment, measurable, and jobs created, businesses
    scaled, and community strengthened.
        Veteran entrepreneurs are not asking for special treatment.
    They are asking for systems that recognize their potential and
    remove avoidable barriers. They defended the American Dream;
    they deserve a fair chance to build it.
        I thank the Committee and look forward to your questions.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        And I now recognize Mr. Lefebvre for his 5 minutes of
    opening remarks.

                   STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER LEFEBVRE

        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Good morning, Chairman Williams, Ranking
    Member Velazquez, and esteemed Members of this Committee. Thank
    you for the opportunity to testify today. It is an honor to
    join you for a discussion that is not only vital to the
    economic strength of our country but to the future of the men
    and women who have served it.
        My name is Chris Lefebvre. I am a Marine Corps veteran and
    president and CEO of ISI Professional Services, a service-
    disabled veteran-owned small business.
        I appear before you today as a practitioner, someone who
    has lived the transition from military service and now
    employers and mentors veterans navigating similar paths.
        When I left the Marine Corps, I didn't plan to start a
    business. I didn't even know that that was an option. I joined
    ISI as an employee seeking stability and to make an impact.
    Less than 3 years later, I became president and CEO, and I
    quickly learned that, while the military prepared me to lead
    people, I didn't understand the fundamentals of running a
    business. I didn't know what I didn't know.
        What I encountered, and what so many veterans encounter,
    was not a lack of capability but a lack of clarity around the
    requirements that I stepped into and the resources available to
    me. Like me, veterans struggle because they enter an
    entrepreneurial ecosystem that is difficult to see. It is hard
    to navigate, and it is very easy to fall out of.
        And that is the central point of my testimony. This is a
    system design problem, not a talent problem. Veterans bringing
    the qualities that every successful entrepreneur needs, but
    they face an ecosystem built in pieces. Strong programs, but
    not a pathway. Resources, but not direction. Opportunities, but
    not continuity.
        From my experience, and from the data, four failures stand
    out. First is navigation. Awareness of resources can deeply
    depend on geography and structure, or, often, luck. Veterans
    often stumble into programs rather than being led or guided
    into them.
        Second, continuity. Even when veterans enter high-quality
    programs like Boots to Business or Focused Accelerators, the
    programs are not connected. There is no one handoff, no shared
    roadmap, no follow throughs, and momentum stalls.
        Third, capital access. Traditional underwriting models do
    not reflect the realities of service. Frequent moves,
    deployment, shorter credit histories, these are structural
    mismatches, not risk factors.
        Fourth, procurement volatility. Veteran-owned firms rely on
    a stable federal marketplace. When policies shift through
    reliance on category management, or consolidations that
    unintentionally limit participation, uncertainty rises,
    investment slows, and it becomes harder for veteran-led firms
    to complete and grow.
        These failures come at a cost. And, while 1.6 million
    veteran-owned businesses contribute significantly to the
    economic, millions more veterans have the capacity to build and
    grow companies if the system just better enabled them to move
    from interest to action.
        The good news is that targeted practical reforms can close
    these gaps. In my written testimony, I outline six
    recommendations that solve the fundamental problem--
    fragmentation--by building the unified continuum that veterans
    need.
        First, establish a national navigation hub, a single front
    door, digital and human, that triages veterans to the right
    programs at the right times.
        Second, standardized warm handoff between programs. This
    turns isolated touch points into a connected pathway, from
    ideation to launch, from growth to exit.
        Third, modernize entrepreneurship exposure within TAP.
    Entrepreneurship education through Boots to Business during TAP
    is a game changer, but it should be mandatory, not elective.
    Consistent high-quality exposure ensures that every
    servicemember understands that entrepreneurship is a viable
    post-service option.
        Fourth, modernize capital access. Implement the capital
    provisions in the Veteran Entrepreneurship Empowerment Act,
    expand early stage flexibility, and pilot structured uses of
    the GI bill for entrepreneurship training.
        Fifth, stabilize procurement conditions for veteran-owned
    firms. Small businesses struggle to make multiyear investments
    when goals fluctuate, rules shift, or opportunities consolidate
    beyond their reach.
        And, six, improve transparency across nonprofit and VSOs.
    Veterans deserve clarity about which programs produce outcomes,
    and which do not.
        Individually these recommendations address the major pain
    points that veterans face. Collectively, though, they build the
    continuum that the current system lacks.
        We as veterans do not need guarantees. We need a system
    that matches our capability: clear, coherent and built from
    momentum. If we modernize that system, they will continue to do
    what they have always done: lead with purpose, build with
    integrity, and strengthen the economic and strategic fabric of
    our nation.
        Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, Members of the
    Committee, thank you for your commitment to those who served. I
    appreciate the opportunity to testify today, and I am happy to
    answer any questions you have.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
        I now recognize Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner for her 5 minutes of
    opening remarks.

                 STATEMENT OF REBECCA AGUILERA-GARDINER

        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Thank you. Chairman Williams,
    Ranking Member Velazquez, and distinguish Members of the
    Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
        My name is Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, and I am the CEO of
    Veterans in Business, or VIB, Network. We are a crucial
    nonprofit organization specifically dedicated to advocating
    for, educating, and connecting veteran-owned small businesses
    and service-disabled veteran-owned businesses with real
    opportunities in the corporate and government marketplace. The
    VIB Network represents diverse coalition of veterans who have
    traded their uniforms for business suits, applying the
    discipline, resilience, and leadership learned in the military
    to the American marketplace.
        We execute our mission through impactful programs like our
    B.R.A.V.O. Corporate Mentor/Veteran Business Protege Program,
    which provides intensive mentoring and coaching at no cost to
    the veterans.
        There are nearly 1.6 million veteran-owned businesses in
    the United States. These firms employ over 5 million Americans
    and generate approximately $1 trillion in annual receipts. When
    a veteran succeeds in business, they hire other veterans,
    reinvest in their local communities, and strengthen the
    national supply chain.
        We started the VIB Network because corporations were saying
    it was difficult to find veterans for projects, and the VA
    search engine was challenging to navigate. However, the path to
    success is fraught with obstacles.
        Data from our 2023 veteran business survey indicates that
    the majority of veteran-owned businesses are small, nearly 90
    percent, with over 60 percent reporting annual revenues below
    $500,000.
        I would like to highlight three critical areas where this
    Committee's support is essential for veteran business success.
    First, the federal government has a statutory goal of awarding
    5 percent of all prime contract dollars to SDVOSBs. Yet the
    practice of category management, bundling small contracts into
    massive vehicles to save money, disproportionately harms
    veteran small businesses. This consolidation regulates capable
    veteran firms to permanent subcontractor status stripping them
    of past-performance rating necessary for growth.
        Furthermore, large prime contractors are often awarded
    billion dollar contracts with a stipulation that they utilize
    small veteran businesses. Currently, there is insufficient
    oversight and penalties when a prime fails to meet their
    veteran utilization goals. We need teeth in these regulations.
        We also strongly support updating the sole source threshold
    across SBA programs, including SDVOSBs, VOSBs, HUBZone and
    8(a), to align permanent tools with current realities and
    expand access for small businesses.
        Further, VIB supports H.R. 2804, the Protecting of Small
    Business Competition Act of 2025, which will help VOSBs remain
    competitive.
        Second, in the federal government, veterans have a setaside
    status. However, in corporate America, veteran-owned businesses
    are often not recognized as a diverse category in the same vein
    as minority or women-owned. Veterans are a diverse group by
    nature representing every race, gender, and background in
    America. We urge this Committee to encourage the private sector
    to standardize inclusion of VOSBs and SDVOSBs in their supply
    diversity goals.
        When major corporations open supply chains to veterans, it
    reduces reliance on government contracts and creates a more
    sustainable business ecosystem.
        Finally, you cannot start a business or scale a business
    without capital. Unfortunately, veterans have struggled to
    access traditional financing. Many transition out the service
    with gaps in their credit history due to deployment or lack of
    tangible collateral required by traditional banks. While SBA
    loan programs are vital, the fees and strict underwriting
    criteria often leave smaller veteran startups behind.
        Veterans have already signed a blank check to their country
    payable with their lives. When they return home and choose to
    start a business, they are asking for nothing more than an
    equal opportunity to compete. By removing bureaucratic barriers
    and ensuring fair access to capital and contracts, we do not
    just help veterans; we fuel the American economy.
        Thank you for your time, and for your continued commitment
    to the veteran business community.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        And we will now move to the Member questions under the 5-
    minute rule. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Schmiegel, as a veteran who has dedicated his civilian
    life to serving fellow veterans, you have first-hand experience
    in navigating the benefits and the resources. So my question
    is, how difficult is it to navigate the business resources
    available to veterans, and how can technology make it easier?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Chairman Williams, I have to say that when I
    first started my entrepreneurial business, ZeroMils, we had to
    do it on our own. So it was difficult to navigate. And I think
    the points being made about that navigation and consolidating
    it under larger nonprofits, larger VSOs is exactly the wrong
    direction to take.
        Figuring out how to run or how to start and run a business
    is part of the process. I think that the solution should lie
    with the private sector. I think it should be private-sector
    led, and I think the type of automation that we are working on
    through a military-thriving small business toolkit will be with
    companies that want small business owners to thrive, to make it
    seamless, to make a dashboard that they can use at the start of
    their business, and to carry them through so they not only have
    to start it, but they can grow and continue to grow.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Ms. Fox, your institution plays a vital
    role in helping veterans find their next mission as small
    business owners through programs like CEOcircle and Boots to
    Business, which you mentioned. And, last year, this Committee
    worked to make Boots to Business a course that gives a
    servicemember an introduction to entrepreneurship permanent.
        So the question would be, how important is the timing of
    taking the Boots to Business course before transitioning to
    civilian life?
        Ms. FOX. Thank you for that question, Chairman. It is
    extremely important. Quite frankly, Boots to Business is the
    language of entrepreneurship, and the fact that it is hosted
    both here and OCONUS is something that is extremely important
    as geography should never ration your opportunity. And I think
    the great thing about Boots to Business is that you have the
    ability to learn the 101 of entrepreneurship. We should expand
    it. It works. It works, but it needs to work for more people.
    We need to have it be more available online. We need to have it
    be more available with touch points even after transition
    because we know that veterans are starting businesses 11 years
    after transition. So to make sure that they can continue to
    check in and understand the resources that are there for them
    when they are ready is paramount. If we solve for transition,
    we will solve for small business. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And, Mr. Lefebvre, as a
    veteran, you both employ and mentor other veterans navigating
    similar circumstances and pathways. And can you share your
    approach to fostering veteran entrepreneurship and what others
    can learn from it.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Absolutely. Thank you, Chairman. My approach
    is multifold. The reality of what my testimony talked about is
    the continuum throughout this process. There is ideation. There
    is startup. There is growth. There is exit, and what any
    individual veteran, or any entrepreneur for that matter, needs
    at any given moment is fundamentally different.
        And so, whether it is mentoring employees of my current
    firm that are entrepreneurial in nature and how I can leverage
    SBA programs, like the Mentor Protege Program, and entering
    into joint ventures to help with real mentorship and support is
    fundamentally different than my advocacy and support that I
    give institutions like IVMF through EBV and other accelerators
    that can help, especially those veterans that are on the front
    end of that journey from ideation into building their business
    plan, actually letting boots hit the ground, to take it from
    momentum, I look at each step of that across the continuum very
    differently.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. In the time I got remaining,
    Mr. Schmiegel, veteran small business ownership has been
    decreasing over the years as fewer post-9/11 veterans are
    becoming entrepreneurs. You discussed that. However, some
    veterans have found that franchising has helped them achieve
    their dream of business ownership.
        So, from your perspective, what is contributing to the
    decline in veteran entrepreneurship?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the decline is largely due to the
    lack of access to capital. You mentioned franchising. Veterans
    are actually twice as likely to own a franchise than their
    civilian counterparts. It is across the other small businesses
    where they are on their own that they don't get to achieve
    their full potential.
        So I think we should really look at legislation that is out
    there that will improve access to capital, and, also, take off
    some of the onerous regulations that prohibit franchisers from
    engaging with the small business community, the veteran who
    wants to own a franchise. The reason they are most likely to
    succeed as a franchisee is that they have an SOP, they have a
    playbook, and they have easier capital, access to capital than
    a small business owner that is doing it on their own.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And I now yield my
    time back and recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of
    questions.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Aguilera-
    Gardiner, you were a Member of the SBA Advisory Committee on
    Veteran's Business Affairs previously, correct?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What is the status of that Committee?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. The status is I have no idea. I
    haven't heard back from them. And we did a lot of work when I
    was on the Committee, and, you know, I would love to find out
    what the next steps are for that Committee as well. But I have
    not heard any process, and I don't think that they have had any
    meetings since.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay. Did you see value in the Committee for
    both veteran business owners and for the SBA?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. There was a huge amount of
    value in that being able to speak to the SBA directly, talking
    about programs, talking about committees. We were actually on
    the verge of creating a committee that was there to help
    veterans connect more with corporations and leading that. And I
    really did see there was quite a bit of value, and we were able
    to connect with fellow veterans and organizations across the
    U.S. that are impacting veteran business' lives. So----
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What happened to the progress made by the
    Committee?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I do not know. I wish I knew. And I
    have reached out, but I haven't heard anything. But, you know,
    we worked--we had a couple committees, and we worked very hard
    on creating this opportunity, new opportunity for veteran
    businesses.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Well, Mr. Chairman, here we are listening to
    their stories and recommendations that you are making, but we
    don't have a way to channel those into SBA so that they could
    revisit, for example, the different SBA financing programs that
    they have.
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. And how to reach the veteran community. So I
    will suggest that we should send a bipartisan letter inquiring
    as to the status of that committee.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. So move.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, can you
    speak to the importance of mentorships for helping veteran
    business owners start and grow their business?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I think mentorship is key for anyone
    starting a business, you know, from the startups to people who
    have been in business 5 to 10 years. And veteran businesses who
    have been around for 5, 10, 20 years, having them mentor and
    share their experience with fellow veterans so that they can
    get past the red tape and understand which avenue to take, you
    know, really can help decrease a veteran's time of struggling
    when they are starting a business.
        I know, with our programs, so we have two programs, our
    Veteran-To-Veteran Business Cohort Program, which has a
    coaching section, a peer mentor group, and, also, our Corporate
    Mentor of Veteran Business Protege Program is very essential to
    helping veterans succeed in business.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Yes.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, ma'am. What I would say there is
    we, as veterans, we have discipline in abundance, and we are
    tenacious as can be. So we can succeed on our own, and we
    oftentimes do, but mentorship is a force multiplier. And what
    is lacking now is simple education around what mentorship
    avenues exist. And so a particular veteran that may be
    transitioning out of service or one that has transitioned 11
    years prior just doesn't know where to start.
        And so, whether it be commercially, within industry and
    certainly programs and policies that are put in place, what
    needs to happen is linking and connecting it all and making it
    accessible to everybody to better understand.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Ms. Fox, are there opportunities
    you see around any overlooked or underutilized ways of
    improving outreach to veterans?
        Ms. FOX. When improving outreach to veterans I go back to
    what I said earlier around connectivity. I think veterans are a
    high-trust group. They will often rely on word-of-mouth to
    understand what programs are out there. So making those who
    have succeeded within the ecosystem ambassadors for the
    ecosystem will be paramount.
        In addition, one thing that we have to understand is that
    it can be--someone should not have to be a subject-matter
    expert in the ecosystem to be able to navigate it. So I think,
    as we look through how we can do outreach, it is around trust,
    it is around timing and making sure that, as they continue to
    move forward, we have interventions, and, of course, it is
    around that connectivity.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
        Mr. Schmiegel.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I would just like to add that the answer
    lies with us. I think, if you listen to Mr. Lefebvre and Ms.
    Aguilera-Gardiner, that they said the same thing. We don't have
    a seat at the table. So how do you mobilize small businesses,
    the 1.6 million across the country, to provide that mentorship?
    This isn't going to be solved with big nonprofits, big VSOs,
    and big companies alone. This will be solved by us, veteran
    small business owners for veteran small business owners. TAP is
    broken.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Congressman Stauber from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you,
    veterans, for sharing your information with us. But, most
    importantly, thanks for your service to this nation.
        15 years ago my wife left service after 23 and a half years
    with the Minnesota Air National Guard, the first female command
    chief in the State's history. We struggled when we were
    considering opening up a small business with access to capital.
    That was 15 years ago.
        I don't think we need any more committees and any more
    meetings. You said it, sir, 2 minutes ago: The answer lies
    right here. You have lived it. You have breathed it. You have
    understood it. You have had some ups and downs. This is
    important, that we recognize your value to the veterans
    community. We know the answers because you have given us the
    answers. Now it is up to us to try to help you out.
        I don't know where we are from 15 years ago to today, but I
    am guessing access to capital, navigation, reintegration. We
    have been talking about that for a long time. You have the
    answers.
        And, Mr. Lefebvre, I will tell you that you said something
    that struck me: There needs to be one single front door, and it
    has got to be a double door for our veterans. Open those double
    doors, and they are going to be connected to your great
    programs. One single door for the veterans, double door, and
    you will all get the opportunity to serve.
        I don't understand how that is not done already. We have
    been talking about this. We have to put our talk into action by
    investing in your programs. And, when you talk about bringing
    veteran-owned businesses to all parts of our conference, you
    are exactly right. We need to take care of the veterans. We
    have always talked about, and we will always support our
    veterans. Now let's put that into action.
        You are all leading in your own respective rights in your
    own respective communities. I am listening. Usually I have
    something to pick on here. I don't have anything to pick on.
    You guys are awesome. This is a great--this panel is one of the
    best panels that I have seen in the 7 years on small business.
    Spectacular because you know what you are talking about. You
    have lived it. You know the hardships.
        39 percent of our veteran-owned businesses are in rural
    America. We can't forget rural America. That is where the
    veterans grew up, that is where they want to live and raise
    their family. That is where they are going to die, and that is
    where they are going to bring economic value.
        Veterans are so important. The boots that my wife wore in
    Iraq, her hat she wore in Iraq, and that funeral picture in
    case she didn't make it back are in my office today.
        And many Members--this is a bipartisan issue that we can
    get behind. And I thank the Chairman and the ranker for
    bringing the four of you professionals, the leaders in your
    respective communities. The time for talking is over. We need
    action to support our veterans. I ask each and every one of you
    to continue to do what you are doing. We have heard it now. In
    fact, we have heard it several times. It is time to put this
    into practice.
        That one front door for our veterans--and, sir, let it be a
    double door because we have got a lot of American heroes that
    can bring their entrepreneurship and their leadership to Main
    Street America, and to rural America. We have asked them to
    serve our country, given us the freedoms that we enjoy today,
    you know what I am talking about because you experienced it:
    Upon your exit there should be reintegration, that front door,
    and then all the options should be there. We shouldn't have to
    go down 55 lanes and figure out where you should end up at.
        I am committed, and I know the Chairman and both political
    parties are committed to making sure that our veterans are
    taken care of from start to finish. Thank you for being risk
    takers. Thank you for your service and sacrifice, and to your
    families.
        And I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of
    Michigan for 5 minutes.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        And thank you so much to our incredible witnesses today for
    taking the time to be here, helping us to do our jobs. For
    those who served, thank you for your service. To all of you who
    serve our veterans, thank you for your service to them.
        I am proud to chair the bipartisan Congressional Franchise
    Caucus, our goal is to ensure franchise businesses thrive
    locally, empower workers, and serve as a pathway to
    entrepreneurship for all.
        It is notable that, while veterans make up just 7 percent
    of the overall population, they account for 14 percent of
    franchise owners.
        Mr. Schmiegel, my first question is for you, can you speak
    to why franchising draws veteran entrepreneurs?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Representative Scholten. First of
    all, my wife grew up in Iron Mountain, Michigan. So, when we
    talk about rural communities and empowering veteran
    entrepreneurs to own businesses, we are living and breathing
    that right now. We are moving to northeast Wisconsin, and I can
    see how what we are doing to create military thriving cultures
    and communities right there where my wife grew up can really
    change the paradigm.
        And I don't care if I have to model it in the town that I
    live, work and serve. It is just like a veteran entrepreneur to
    do that.
        The phrase ``in business for yourself and not by yourself''
    is frequently cited because it perfectly encapsulates why the
    franchise model bridges the gap between military service and
    civilian entrepreneurship so effectively.
        In my experience, franchising provides veterans with the
    operational guardrails they are trained to respect while
    offering the autotomy and empowering them with the leadership
    skills they learned through service.
        The most daunting aspect of entrepreneurship for many
    veterans is the lack of structure. In the military, survival
    depends on adherence to SOPs, and franchising replicates this
    safety net.
        Finally, the data shows that, when a veteran goes into
    business for themselves, they rarely stay by themselves.
    Veteran franchises are 30 percent more likely to hire other
    veterans than nonveteran owners. Thank you.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. That is wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. And
    we are obviously a huge supporter, and if there is anything
    that we can do in the Franchise Caucus to elevate your issues,
    please reach out to me or my team.
        Moving onto some contracting issues, the Departments of
    Defense and Veterans Affairs are the largest source of federal
    contract dollars for both service-disabled veterans and
    veteran-owned small businesses.
        In fiscal year 2022, DOD awards accounted for over 42
    percent of contract dollars to VOSBs, while 39 percent were
    awarded to service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses.
        Similarly, 28 percent of VA contract dollars were awarded
    to veteran-owned small businesses, and 34 percent to service-
    disabled veteran-owned small businesses.
        Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, veteran entrepreneurs bring a skill
    set and knowledge base that is advantageous for defense-related
    contracts, but we all know these qualities can benefit
    contracting in every industry.
        What more can Congress do to ensure that these veteran-
    owned small businesses have the tools they need to compete for
    contracts in other industries?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Well, I think it is really important
    that a veteran actually wins these contracts. You know, just to
    say that they are available, but winning these contracts is
    really essential to a veteran's growth.
        And what also happens is, when a veteran wins a contract,
    that shouldn't be just a one-time thing. They should win
    contracts over and over, and, also, grow from that. Every
    business wants to grow. Every business wants to continue to win
    those contracts. So, by opening up the SDVOSBs and VOSBs and
    the Rule of Two, these are opportunities that any veteran, and
    a veteran can actually use these to access these certification
    to grow their business and to move to that next level.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you.
        Ms. Fox, you seem like you want to say something. Yeah. I
    want to hear from you. Yeah.
        Ms. FOX. So, since 2016, we have worked with the Coalition
    of Veteran Owned Business, which is a group of Fortune 500
    companies who have said, ``We will spend more with veterans
    than our supply chain,'' and when we see that--last year about
    $238 million were made from connections that we made to those
    Fortune 500 companies.
        What I will say is that training without market sets people
    up to fail, and being able to make sure that those businesses
    are trained and retooled and that it doesn't require an onerous
    amount of retooling between government and private sector is
    paramount. We see great training programs out there. We have
    them. The Veteran Institute for Procurement has them both in
    government contracting and newly now in corporate contracting,
    and that training and those peer networks of people who have
    been there, done that, and that connectivity, we will continue
    to see more success.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Very helpful. My time has expired.
    I yield back. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of
    Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
        Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thanks very much to our witnesses.
        And, particularly to our veterans, thank you for your
    service very much.
        So, yeah, like many, I have 45,000 veterans throughout my
    district. Many of them are entrepreneurs. We certainly want
    strong transition support, to reduce burdens on regulations,
    and ensure access to capital.
        You know, in my former business, we did our best to hire
    veterans. I mean, many businesses do. You go in. You see their
    support and their programs. And they talk about it. They kind
    of, you know, boast about it, which is great. You know, we want
    more of that.
        Nevertheless, I do sense, even though the dedication is
    clear from all of you in your care for our veterans, I also
    sense frustration. So, you know, we do; our government is
    bureaucratic. So we are really dealing with two agencies, I
    guess, right, SBA and Veterans Administration. We have Kelly
    Loeffler there at SBA, and we have got Doug Collins, who is a
    former Member, a good friend of all of ours, as the VA
    Secretary. We should be able to make some improvements here
    moving forward.
        So, as I am asking you questions, please just tell me what
    you want to do, what needs to be done. If you were here, what
    would you be doing as a priority to help TAP? Like, for
    instance, Mr. Schmiegel, Colonel Schmiegel, you mentioned that
    TAP is broken. Well, TAP is a pretty viable--or, actually, it
    doesn't sound viable, but it is listed as an important program.
    Maybe you could describe what we need to fix it.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think we need to start with why it is
    broken. Think about a servicemember at the end of their
    service: You don't have a captive audience. In 5 days, you are
    jamming a bunch of information to an audience that is not
    really listening.
        Mr. MEUSER. Right.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. And they have no context. How are they
    supposed to understand the fundamentals of owning a small
    business, or, in a gig economy, what job to have? We should be
    asking them fundamental questions so they discover for
    themselves: What brings me joy? What is my purpose? And what
    does my community need from me? Or how can I make money or make
    an impact with the next chapter of my life? They should ask
    themselves, what are the five things they need to thrive? In
    transition, we are just talking about education, benefits, and
    employment in a gig economy, instead of encouraging them to get
    these five things. Outside of meaningful employment, the second
    thing is a sense of purpose through continued service. The
    third is a connected community or a tribe. The fourth is good
    health outcomes, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional. And
    the fifth is the ``kit bag'', those things they need to
    constantly seek self-improvement so that they understand the
    strengths that they have and they apply those strengths going
    forward. All the other stuff that is part of a 5-day course is
    going right over their heads. So we need to prepare them with
    the fundamental questions that they have in their lives to
    succeed.
        Mr. MEUSER. Are those departments within the VA and SBA
    sufficiently supported, funded? Do they have enough people in
    TAP.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the programs are funded well. Where
    I think the common theme today that you heard was access to
    capital. Instead of investing taxpayer dollars in things that
    are not having the impact, as we see veteran small businesses
    decline, use some of that capital, use some of the funding to
    provide more access to capital.
        Mr. MEUSER. Ms. Fox--excuse me. Thank you. Access to
    capital, let's focus there. I am on Financial Services, access
    to capital is, you know, should be a specialty for small
    businesses. Tell me what problems there are and what you think
    we should do to make it better.
        Ms. FOX. Thank you for that question. 37 percent of veteran
    entrepreneurs basically say that access to capital is a barrier
    for them. And, if you look at it, typically they will need
    about $50,000 to start a business, but they are going to their
    personal savings. They are going to those areas instead of
    loans. And why, because as we look at TAP, we are not setting a
    solid foundation in terms of credit repair. What do you need to
    do to be successful so that you can then go start your
    business?
        And I said earlier, when we solve for transition, we will
    get there. 43 percent of veterans say, ``We have a tough time
    with transition.'' And, if you think about it, when someone
    gets out and they are looking at what their options are, we
    have more corporate hiring programs.
        Mr. MEUSER.--your community banks' cooperation.
        Ms. FOX. They do, yes, but 66 percent of veterans do not
    know about CDFIs, or any of those options as well. So the issue
    is not just access. It is readiness.
        Mr. MEUSER. All right. Thank you. Mr. Lefebvre, last word,
    I only have 15 seconds left, on access to capital.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, sir. I appreciate it. The only thing
    that I would continue is in the rest of my testimony is
    continuity across the entire continuum. It is not just about
    startups and access to capital at the front end. It also
    includes exit. The SBA 7(a) loan with a limit of $5 million
    from a loan is not going to help a veteran that actually wants
    to pay that forward to another veteran internally. If you are
    trying to look avenues outside of private equity or some
    venture capital firm----
        Mr. MEUSER. We are looking to raise that up, so thank you
    all very much.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. MEUSER. I appreciate it. And, again, thank you for your
    service.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New
    Jersey for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for
    convening this hearing, and thank you to our witnesses for
    their service in keeping our country safe and for sharing their
    expertise with the Committee today.
        The mission of supporting our military veterans as they
    transition to civilian life and pursue entrepreneurship--the
    heart of the American dream--unites every Member of this body.
    We all recognize that these men and women possess a foundation
    of leadership, discipline, and problem-solving skills that are
    invaluable assets in business. We must encourage and empower
    them to build and grow veteran-owned small businesses. This is
    one of the most meaningful ways we can honor their service and
    ensure our economy benefits from their exceptional talent.
        In my hometown in New Jersey's Tenth Congressional
    District, we see this potential every day through businesses
    like Dogwood Green Dispensary--there we go--a newly opened
    veteran-, Black-, and woman-owned business in West Orange.
    Dogwood Green is the product of three lifelong friends who
    joined together to build a business grounded in education,
    community empowerment, and their shared experiences, all while
    employing hardworking people and stimulating the local economy.
    When we equip veterans with tools to succeed as entrepreneurs,
    we uplift an entire community.
        To each of my witnesses, I have the same question for all
    of you. Veterans sometimes struggle to translate their
    specialized military experience into civilian business plans
    and projections when transitioning to business ownership. What
    procedures can the SBA standardize within the Transition
    Assistance Program, better known as TAP, to ensure veterans
    consistently and effectively translate their military skills
    into viable civilian business models? Anyone can jump in and
    start.
        Ms. FOX. Once we look at--or thank you for the question.
    Once we look at TAP, I think one thing that would really help
    there are those warm handoffs. Right now, we are expecting
    those who are transitioning and figuring out where they are
    moving to, what job they are getting, et cetera, to also
    navigate this landscape. As we look at warm handoffs and to
    resource partners and trusted grantees, we need to incentivize
    connectivity and referrals so that these resources are at their
    first best use and also capitalizing on the dollars that
    continue to shrink in the nonprofit world.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Ms. Fox.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the biggest answer, again, lies with
    us. Veteran small business owners aren't invited to
    installations to speak on bases and stations to have access to
    transitioning servicemembers at TAP. They just don't. It is the
    same big nonprofits with the big companies. And, in a lot of
    cases, the veteran small business owner is expected to pay to
    play to actually get on an installation. Not all of them get
    that access.
        So, again, if we want to solve this problem, the answer
    lies with us. Give veteran small business owners like the ones
    on this panel--give us more access. Give us more access so we
    can share our stories. You want to streamline frustration and
    confusion? Let the mentors who represent the veteran small
    business owners of America talk to the future entrepreneurs who
    want to be part of this movement.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, ma'am, for the question. I will
    narrow my answer specifically to entrepreneurship.
        We invest a tremendous amount into our servicemembers,
    whether that is in a unique specialty or a generalist. The
    problem with entrepreneurship is, even within TAP, it is still
    inconsistent. As great as Boots to Business is, the deployment
    and delivery of Boots to Business is highly inconsistent.
    Whether someone is redeploying from Japan, whether they had a
    ship at sea, how they receive the knowledge is inconsistent, so
    we cannot fundamentally expect to have a consistent outcome.
        The other thing that I would say for entrepreneurship is
    what if we introduced it before TAP? You have a servicemember
    that is riddled with questions about the future and the
    uncertainty, and so they may elect to receive a class on
    entrepreneurship, but really what they are wondering and
    worried about is what is next, period. So what if our military
    service branches--and we all say something to some degree that
    we want to return better citizens post service. And
    servicemembers go into service for education, for different
    reasons. What if one of those was this was actually a
    springboard into entrepreneurship to deploy their ideas that
    they have?
        Mrs. MCIVER. Got it. Thank you.
        Anything to add in 20 seconds? I am sorry.
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yeah. No problem. I think that
    entrepreneurship is valuable and having that mentorship and
    also making sure that the veterans who are leaving know about
    the different options that they have available to them like
    entrepreneurship and working in a variety of different avenues.
    Thank you.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you. Thank you all so much for your
    expertise. Thank you.
        With that, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Today's hearing focuses on a very important mission in my
    estimation. When our veterans return home, many of them want to
    start a business and continue serving their communities. They
    have the skills. They have the discipline. They have the
    leadership that makes them a natural fit for starting a small
    business in America. But we also know the reality is that
    veteran entrepreneurship has declined sharply. After World War
    II and Korea, nearly half of all returning veterans started a
    business. Today, that number is just more than 4 percent.
        Our veterans today are not less capable than they were 70
    years ago. In fact, I think they are more capable than they
    were 70 years ago, but we no longer support them in the way
    that we did 70 years ago. That is why I introduced the
    bipartisan SERVE Act with Representatives Davids and Conaway.
    The House passed it with overwhelming support. This legislation
    identifies the challenges veterans face when starting a small
    business and evaluates how military service deployment and
    transition affects the ability to access affordable credit. Our
    veterans deserve better. They deserve clear access to
    resources, to capital, and to the opportunities that they
    earned.
        Mr. Schmiegel, I want to start with you. Thank you for your
    testimony today. In your opinion, what is the driving force
    behind this precipitous decline, the shrinking rates of veteran
    entrepreneurship in the last 70 years?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think a lot of it has to do with the same
    organizations saying the same things with the same agendas in
    mind. Like, we are focused on the past. When I started Hiring
    Our Heroes in 2011, veteran employment was at a historic high
    at 10 percent. Over the last 2 years, it has been lower than 3
    percent. So why are we investing all of our resources on a
    problem that doesn't exist? Three percent unemployment for
    veterans, but we still think that it is a problem when it is
    not.
        How do we invest the same sort of energy, resources, time
    into getting servicemembers and veteran entrepreneurs to
    consider a different pathway? It really is a focus of emphasis.
    Look at HVAC, look at SVAC, and look at the same players
    talking about the same things. Do you see a veteran small
    business owner testifying before the HVAC and SVAC very often?
    Ask ourselves the question. If you really want to make change,
    put it in the hands of people who are living, breathing, and
    walking in the shoes of the future veteran entrepreneurs in
    America.
        Mr. ALFORD. What can the federal government do to better
    support veteran entrepreneurs?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think we start with investing--investing
    in them and make sure that they have access to capital. The
    difference in our environment right now in this culture is, in
    transition, servicemembers are entitled. We are talking about
    their benefits. We are talking about education. We are talking
    about employment. What happened in World War II and Korea was
    we invested and empowered veterans to come home and run
    businesses. We need more of that and less of what is going on
    now. It is as simple as that.
        Mr. ALFORD. And, Ms. Fox, I think I heard you say in your
    previous answer to Mr. Meuser's question that the issue is not
    access to capital. It is the readiness. Please expand on that.
        Ms. FOX. Yes. Thank you for the question. Veterans are
    turned down at a rate about 6 percent higher than their
    civilian counterparts when it comes to capital. The issue is
    that veterans will not go back. Unlike their civilian
    counterparts, once they are turned down, that is it.
        Mr. ALFORD. Why is that?
        Ms. FOX. So, typically, it goes back to a high-trust
    organization, meaning that once they feel like they are not
    able to access a resource, they don't feel as comfortable going
    back, whereas a civilian might feel a little bit more
    comfortable just trying it again.
        In addition, if you look at limited networks and limited
    mentoring, because of the nature of PCSs, you look at the fact
    that they don't have as many people to lean on to say what
    should I have done there. And that is why we have to create
    transparency and connectivity so that they are trying to figure
    out their business and not the system.
        Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you to all of our witnesses here
    today for coming here. This is a very important issue, and I am
    so glad that our Chair and Ranking Member are taking leadership
    in trying to fix this issue because it is an issue worth fixing
    in my estimation. There is no better person to be able to
    start, maintain, and lead our small business community than
    veterans.
        And, with that, sir, I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from the great State of
    California for 5 minutes.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you
    and the Ranking Member for this hearing today to try and shed
    some light on what our veteran entrepreneurs need to start and
    grow their businesses. I appreciate our witnesses for being
    here today.
        As a veteran and former small business owner, I stand with
    you and I want all our veteran-owned businesses to succeed. But
    yet again, we are having another hearing with no representation
    from the SBA, and I am concerned at the SBA's continued absence
    and silence on issues in this matter--on this matter. Concerns
    raised by Members of this Committee and by my esteemed
    witnesses--or esteemed witnesses should not be ignored by those
    tasked with carrying out the laws passed by Congress.
        I am the Ranking Member on the Contracting and
    Infrastructure Subcommittee, and I can't get a straight answer
    from the SBA about the SBA's contracting programs. Veterans
    have personally shared with me that their small business
    contracts were canceled due to the administration's policies,
    and there was no action by the SBA to support them. So I know
    the SBA either doesn't care or is actively ignoring them.
        I join my colleagues in requesting that the SBA and the VA
    provide Congress with accurate data on the cuts at the VA and
    the impacts they had on service-disabled veteran-owned small
    businesses, and we have been met with silence. When I asked the
    administrator directly about changes to the FAR and
    specifically the Rule of Two, there was no way to tell if the
    SBA had been involved.
        The SBA instead has touted workforce cuts of 43 percent,
    which has resulted in fewer SBA contracting staff to support
    our veterans. The SBA has touted leaving major metropolitan
    areas because of politics with no regard for the thousands of
    veterans that would be abandoned. The SBA should be here to
    answer questions, and I hope the SBA gets serious about
    becoming an active partner in our work to support our veterans,
    entrepreneurs, and small businesses across this country.
        And, with that, I will start with questions. Just real
    quick, do any of you know how many veteran-owned or service-
    disabled veteran-owned small businesses lost their federal
    contracts in 2025? No?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I think it was over 900.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Over 900. Thank you.
        Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, why is it important for veteran-
    owned businesses that sole-sourced contracting thresholds be
    increased across SBA programs?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Thank you. When it comes to the
    veteran growing their business, sole sourcing is vital for them
    to continue to grow, getting that opportunity that they may not
    have previously had before. So being able to sole source to a
    veteran business who is able and capable to do that helps them
    with the small businesses win those contracts and also that the
    larger billion-dollar contracts that go to these corporations
    and actually gives the opportunity to the small business to
    grow.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you. As you shared in your statement,
    veterans are often also women, minority, or are located in
    underutilized communities, and I want to ensure that the
    threshold for veterans and all small businesses reflects the
    current realities and that the tools to meet small business
    goals are available. That is why I am introducing legislation
    to streamline and increase the threshold across SBA programs.
        Is this something that veterans and business networks might
    consider supporting?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes.
        Mr. CISNEROS. All right. Thank you.
        Again, Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, we should all share the goals
    of supporting our veteran entrepreneurs in starting and growing
    their small businesses. Unfortunately, over the past year, the
    SBA has sought to drive a political wedge in that support and
    risks leaving veteran entrepreneurs in Democratic-led cities
    and States behind.
        When the SBA announced that it would leave Los Angeles,
    that meant moving away from over 35,000 veteran-owned
    businesses in the metropolitan area alone, according to the SBA
    Office of Advocacy. That is more than the State of Alabama, the
    State of Kentucky, and the State of Wyoming, as well as Iowa.
    35,000 veteran-owned businesses in Los Angeles alone.
        What is the potential impact on veteran entrepreneurs when
    the SBA seeks to abandon them in these cities?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Well, it would be devastating to the
    veteran business community. When you are taking away that
    instruction and that guidance to work with the federal
    government, it--you are putting a muzzle on the veteran
    business community so they can't find these opportunities or
    even find out how to find those opportunities.
        Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you.
        And just real quick, I also serve on Armed Services, and
    TAP needs to be fixed, and I want to work with all of you. So
    please come to my office and we can see how we can improve TAP.
    Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Wied from the great State of Wisconsin
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. WIED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of
    our witnesses for being here today and the important work that
    you do for our veterans. I would also like to thank Mr.
    Schmiegel and Mr. Lefebvre for your service to our country.
    Thank you.
        As veterans end their military service, many face
    difficulties entering the civilian workforce. In Wisconsin, we
    have over 300,000 veterans--with most being Vietnam war
    veterans, according to a 2022 study from the Wisconsin Veterans
    Chamber of Commerce--and over 1,700 nonprofits serving veterans
    in our State, which is eighth most out of any state in the
    nation. Despite the support that exists for veteran
    entrepreneurs from these organizations and from programs
    through the SBA and Department of War, many veterans have
    difficulty translating their military experience into the
    civilian world.
        I will start out with Mr. Schmiegel. I understand you are--
    you frequent the great State of Wisconsin on occasion. Florence
    County?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir. We are just building a house in
    Florence County, my wife and I.
        Mr. WIED. Oh, that is great. So would you say you like
    Wisconsin or Virginia better, sir?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. With my wife listening, I would say the
    great State of Wisconsin.
        Mr. WIED. That is a great answer.
        Ms. FOX. Good answer.
        Mr. WIED. Thank you. I want to make that for the record,
    Mr. Chair. All right.
        But you brought up a good point. Since veteran unemployment
    has dropped to 3 percent thanks to great people like you and
    Mr. Lefebvre, how would you in your--and we talked about TAPs
    and the issues that you addressed there. How would you--could
    you reorient existing federal programs to better address some
    of the issues that you as veterans--and I am going to open it
    up to both of you, you and Mr. Lefebvre. Is that a possibility?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yeah. I would just say the first three
    businesses I ran were nonprofits. I hate the word
    ``nonprofit.'' It is a for-purpose business. And I raised $100
    million in private sector capital. I don't think nonprofits
    should be funded by the government to do this work.
        I think, again, the answer lies with people like Mr.
    Lefebvre and myself who were Marines and are living and
    breathing the challenges that veteran entrepreneurs face. That
    is why we are creating, at the community level, a military-
    thriving community playbook. That is why we are automating a
    tool kit that small business owners who are veterans and
    military spouses can use. I think the answer, again, lies with
    us. If that is the one takeaway, we need to give more access to
    veteran small business owners.
        And I promise you this, Mr. Wied. In the great State of
    Wisconsin, we are going to bring veteran small business owners
    in great numbers.
        Mr. WIED. That is great.
        Mr. Lefebvre?
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, sir. Great question. And I would
    differ a bit from my colleague here. I don't believe there
    should be a single point of failure. We are a component of the
    solution in terms of private industry, but there is a long
    record of federal programs being highly effective. How we can
    support this is not the addition of more programs. It is making
    a coherent link between the programs that exist today. It is
    about defining outcome-based reports and results of what is
    working and what isn't, what needs to be retooled.
        And so I think we have a phenomenal capability right now.
    It is just not streamlined. It is not coherent. It is
    unconnected, not just disconnected, and that is why it is so
    difficult without, as I mentioned, a single front door to come
    in to understand what the pathway and the map looks like ahead
    of us.
        Mr. WIED. I tend to listen to business owners, people that
    are out in the world signing the fronts of checks. Tell me how
    do we do that as Members of Congress. What is your suggestion
    for us?
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. One, I think we need to have a defined
    playing field. When we look at VSOs or nonprofits, the
    accelerators, or any program that has a mission, what are the
    outcomes? Are we meeting the existing goals? Is there a clearly
    defined goal currently? And so how we can do that, I think,
    upfront is to create a study. We can no longer build the plane
    as we are flying it, right? I think we need to understand what
    we are seeking out to do, have a true mission and a purpose,
    and we back plan from there. But we first have to understand
    where is it broken, where are things not connected, how can we
    connect and have those handoffs upfront.
        Mr. WIED. Mr. Schmiegel, would you like to follow up on
    that?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yeah. I think we have studied the problem
    long enough. I actually think we agree. I am starting with the
    fundamental concept. So, if it weren't a problem that big
    nonprofits and the same big corporations and the same big
    VSOs--we wouldn't be here today talking about historically low
    rates of veteran small business ownership.
        All I am saying is veteran small business owners don't have
    a seat at the table, so start with that. If we are part of the
    study, if we are providing both anecdotal and real data on our
    own businesses, what the challenges were, great. But I don't
    think the government should fund another study. They should be
    looking at us for the answers.
        Mr. WIED. I could not agree more. You are the answer. You,
    the business owners, the veterans that are out in the field out
    every day doing the work, and you need to have a seat at the
    table. I am glad you are here today. Thank you for having this
    hearing. And if I can ever be of assistance, please let me
    know. I look forward to seeing you in Wisconsin.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Dr. Morrison from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking
    Member Velazquez, for holding the hearing. Thanks so much to
    our witnesses for being here today.
        In addition to serving on this Committee, I have the honor
    of serving on the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs. My
    husband and my father-in-law are both Army combat veterans, and
    I firmly believe it is our duty here in Congress to provide
    veterans with the resources that they have earned, including
    ensuring they are supported in the transition from military
    life to civilian life.
        As we have heard today, many veterans choose to pursue
    entrepreneurship to start their own business. However, making
    this transition can be challenging for some due to a lack of
    access to capital, difficulty acquiring the necessary and
    relevant training, and trouble receiving contracting
    opportunities.
        So, Mr. Schmiegel and Mr. Lefebvre, thank you both so much
    for your service to our country, and thanks for being here
    today. Would you be willing to speak a little bit more about
    making that transition from military service to working at a
    nonprofit or in the private sector and if there were any
    programs or resources that were particularly helpful to you in
    making this transition?
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. I can start. It has been some years since I
    transitioned from the Marine Corps. The system then was not
    helpful to me. It was a check in the box. And I would venture
    to say that, for many right now, that is a persistent issue. It
    is a gate before they leave active duty.
        And so what does that mean? There may be some meaningful
    information that is within TAP. Again, those that are leaving
    and electing to take the entrepreneurial track because they
    have that burning desire, that is fantastic. But, otherwise,
    most veterans are looking at their benefits and what is next.
        And so I think what is imperative is to have a handoff. TAP
    is a class. It is a gate. But what happens thereafter? And it
    should not be voluntary. There should be an actual handoff to
    another program, another link in the chain that can help them
    along that continuum; otherwise, it just falls off.
        Ms. MORRISON. Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you.
        Mr. Schmiegel?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I would just add that TAP did absolutely
    nothing to encourage me to be an entrepreneur. I was 42 years
    old when I left the Marine Corps in 2009. If someone had told
    me then what I know now, there would be no doubt that I would
    have run more than five small businesses--three nonprofits, and
    two for-profits. I think, fundamentally, we are talking about
    the same thing.
        So, if we are going to invest government money, create a
    network of veteran small business owners that become a resource
    for aspiring entrepreneurs who are leaving the military, let's
    be honest. Let's not create false expectations and create an
    entitled post 9/11 veteran mindset. Not every servicemember is
    capable of running a business right after they leave the
    military.
        I started Hiring Our Heroes for E-5s and below, for junior-
    enlisted Marines, soldiers, sailors, airmen to find meaningful
    employment. They are not going to have access to capital and
    they are not going to have the runway to own a business for the
    most part. Careerists, officers, staff NCOs--we should be
    talking to them at career-level schools, not only for
    themselves to become entrepreneurs and small business owners,
    but for them to educate and empower young enlisted men and
    women who are leaving the military about the opportunities that
    exist and open up their apertures. Ask them those three
    questions, the five things they need to thrive.
        We are not doing that because--when I was Lieutenant
    Colonel, even in the Marine Corps, I could not tell a young
    Marine what to do next. How could I know? I had never been in
    the private sector, which is the same reason a lot of nonprofit
    leaders who are talking about this who have never run a small
    business and have never been in the private sector aren't the
    solution either.
        So I think it is this network of mentors, of us veterans--
    by veterans, for veterans--by veteran small business owners,
    for veteran small business owners--that is going to solve this
    problem.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you for sharing. I think there is a
    real opportunity there. Thank you very much.
        Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, during your testimony, you mentioned
    that nearly 90 percent of veteran-owned businesses have between
    zero and 15 employees, meaning that the vast majority are small
    businesses. You also noted that when the federal government
    consolidates or bundles smaller contracts, it can put those
    contracts out of reach of some small businesses,
    disproportionately harming veteran small businesses.
        Could you elaborate on why this is detrimental to veteran-
    owned small businesses and what actions this Committee and SBA
    should take to ensure that federal contracts remain accessible
    to small businesses?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. Sure. Thank you. As small
    businesses are the backbone to America's economy, we feel that
    the veterans is the heart of that backbone. And so, with that,
    I think when you open up those opportunities and make them
    bite-sized contracts, that makes it more accessible for the
    smaller veteran business owner who is under a million dollars,
    which you find there is, I think, over--actually, 500,000--
    which is over 60 percent of when we surveyed our veteran
    businesses.
        So, in order to have those $500,000 businesses grow to that
    million, 2 million, 10 million, you need to make sure that
    those contracts are able to be a starting point for them so
    that they can go and access----
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady's time is up.
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Oh, sorry. Thank you.
        Ms. MORRISON. Thank you. Thank you so much.
        I have more questions, Mr. Chair, but I yield my time.
    Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields her time back.
        I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of
    Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the Ranking
    Member, and to all of our servicemembers and veterans. Thank
    you for your service, and thank you to each and every one of
    you for what you do for our military and families each and
    every day.
        I guess my first question would be for Mr. Schmiegel. You
    mentioned a few different occurrences about not having veterans
    at the table during those conversations. I am a new Member, so
    I mean this genuinely. What are some examples that we could be
    doing with the SBA and in Congress to make sure that those
    veterans are seen and heard when they are going through the
    entrepreneurialship process, which is daunting to begin with,
    let alone transitioning from your service to the country and
    now looking to be an entrepreneur? Is there any specific
    examples that you can point out?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. My point was addressing the fact that small
    business owners ourselves don't have the access to influence
    the decision-making process to help servicemembers who are
    transitioning and even veterans who are in transition. I have
    had seven jobs since I left the Marine Corps. So we are always
    in transition. We transform ourselves. We earn the title
    soldier, sailor, airmen, Marine. We need to earn the title
    veteran, too.
        The point I was making, if you--again, if you look at other
    committees that are part of the House and the Senate, you don't
    see small business owners like us creating a voice and having a
    seat at the table. If you look on installations, it is the same
    big players that have preferred access. Small business owners
    aren't at TAP, small business owners aren't generally at hiring
    fairs, and small business owners aren't influencing and
    empowering young servicemembers to consider these
    opportunities, whether it is when they are transitioning or
    later in life. We are not planting the right seeds because we
    don't have access. That was the point.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. So do you think it is that--you know, is it
    the access to lending opportunities? Is it the access to
    counsel? Like, you know, I am trying to think about--I was a
    highway contractor in my last life. I am new to political
    public service. But, you know, I was thinking about all the
    different hurdles and challenges that we had to go through to
    grow the company and to be able to expand at the different
    demographics, and it was daunting, and I can only imagine
    applying the same thing as a veteran. And thank you for your
    service once again.
        But is it, you know, making sure that we are driving and
    steering policies that are more inclusive to our veterans that
    are looking to take that next step?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes. And, to my point about committees like
    these on both the House and Senate side, including veteran
    small business owners routinely rather than the same
    nonprofits, the same VSOs, and the same big corporations that
    fund those same nonprofits and same VSOs. We should just have a
    seat at the table--at least one of us--on hearings like these.
    I think that would affect policy decisions. I think people
    would be more considerate about the problem that exists in this
    country.
        Listen, this is a national security imperative.
    Shipbuilding, sub building, semi-con, energy--the major
    industries have massive supplier diversity networks, and we are
    seeing veteran small business owners' ship crash. Not, like,
    decline. Crash. The reason this economy grew and the reason the
    United States realized excellence and became the strongest
    global power is because veteran small business owners came back
    from World War II, came back from Korea, and even came back
    from Vietnam, and they grew the economy. We need empowerment,
    not entitlement, and we need veteran small business owners as
    part of the solution.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, thank you for that.
        I am going to pivot over to Ms. Fox. Obviously, you work
    with a plethora of veterans that leave their time in service
    and then pivot into the private sector or to be entrepreneurs.
    How do you navigate some of the mental health challenges, or
    are there any specific repetitive trends that you have noticed
    for someone pivoting from a longer tenure of service into the
    private space?
        Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. Currently, some of the
    fastest growing areas of veteran small business are those that
    have spent 20 years in service and then starting. When we look
    at mental health, we at the IVMF have several pillars, and we
    have one that is around community-coordinated care. How do we
    get the right person to the right resource?
        One thing that we do is we are backing everything that we
    do by data. So, after a program, we look at how many new
    connections did you make. In our CEOcircle program and our EBV
    programs, typically, about 98 percent of our graduates will say
    they made seven or more connections. What does that mean? It
    means that now I have an expanded network. I have expanded
    cheerleaders. And, as you speak about mental health, we
    actually track that in our entrepreneurs, and they have a
    higher sense of wellness than those who are not serving in this
    area because of that connectivity.
        So I do think that, you know, data is extremely important,
    and I do think that that is another way that we can include
    veteran voices in it by understanding exactly their needs and
    wants and delivering on that in programming.
        Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, thank you, again, all for being here.
        And I think, Mr. Schmiegel, you are taking the first step
    on being in the SBA Committee here, and thanks for taking the
    time.
        And, with that, I yield, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        Now, I recognize Mr. Olszewski from the great State of
    Maryland for 5 minutes.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you
    to all of our witnesses today.
        I am just really passionate about this issue and grateful
    for the work that you all are doing in this really important
    space. I think that, across the board, we spend far too little
    time lifting up those who have given everything to this
    country, and I think it is high time that we do more to
    acknowledge that service instead of leaving people behind after
    that.
        So I guess, in addition to the conversation that we have
    been having today about what we can do from the business
    perspective, do you all have any thoughts about ways in which
    we can merge other veteran services with access to business so
    it sort of becomes a holistic approach to how we are meeting
    the needs of our veterans here in this country? And I am happy
    to just leave that as an open-ended question to anyone who
    wants to jump in there.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think what we are trying to model--I was
    part of the Presidential Leadership Scholars program, and my
    project as part of the PLS program was to model military-
    thriving communities. This is a very complex and visionary
    concept because, if you cross the border from Virginia to North
    Carolina, there is a sign that says ``the most military-
    friendly state in the nation.'' Well, what does friendly mean?
    Are you doing us a favor by giving us a job, letting us pay our
    taxes? Are you doing us a favor by letting us run our small
    businesses?
        So we are modeling military thriving across multiple
    stakeholder groups, across the public-private nonprofit sector,
    and really focused on outcomes. It is fine to attract people to
    your State. What really matters is you keep them there.
        And if you look at the State of Maryland, you have 14
    installations, right? So measuring how many servicemembers are
    transitioning each year from Maryland and how many are staying
    by creating a thriving community--not a friendly community, a
    thriving community--and measure what matters: Affordable
    housing, healthcare, dual incomes, not just the veteran but the
    military spouse.
        After ZeroMils did a Military Thriving National Change
    Forum at Georgetown in October of 2024, I went to 15
    communities. I can tell you what the best practices and lessons
    learned are. So we are modeling military-thriving communities,
    and the first State that executes that model will win the war
    for talent. They will win the war for business owners. They
    will win the war for civic assets. And I think this--this is a
    competition between governors, mayors, city councils. If they
    want our talent, if they want our revenue, they have to go from
    friendly to thriving.
        Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. Eighty two percent of
    entrepreneurs are still starting businesses because of
    opportunities, so ensuring that those opportunities still exist
    will be key.
        I think as we look at, again, how can we combine all these
    things, we host military entrepreneurship forums across the
    United States linking together nonprofits, corporations, and
    those who are not just VSOs in terms of how can we serve
    entrepreneurs, and we have to do so holistically, not only
    looking at social determinants of health, but challenges and
    connectivity as well. And I think that that is why we are
    launching a member council tomorrow that includes corporations,
    nonprofits, as well as veteran entrepreneurs to understand what
    can we be doing better from a policy ecosystem, connectivity,
    and collaboration.
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I was just going to agree with
    Misty. I mean, collaboration, working with other groups,
    knowing what other people are doing, you know, in a variety of
    different aspects, you know, from transitioning to start-ups to
    actually even succession planning is all valuable information
    that any veteran business needs to know. And if we work
    together, we can only help the veteran business community
    continue to thrive.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I appreciate that very much. And our office,
    as I am sure many Members of this Committee, look forward to
    working with you on that holistic thriving, certainly in this
    space with small business, but all the ways that we can win
    that war for talent for America and for our communities.
        Just to close, Mr. Chairman, on that point of partnership,
    I think that is a really important theme there. You know, in
    good faith, we do try to communicate with our partners in the
    administration, and I know that, you know, I have sent letters
    of concern to VA Secretary Collins and have joined myself and
    individually, and it is frustrating when we are trying to
    advocate for all of these services and all of these
    opportunities to not have a Secretary be responsive to Members
    of Congress. I think that is the only way that we can, in good
    faith and in that partnership, really understand what they are
    doing and ways in which we can do better and be better.
        And so to the extent, Mr. Chairman, you and others are able
    to help us get those answers, we certainly appreciate that so
    that we can take the lessons learned from panelists like today
    and really move forward together. And, with that, I yield.
    Thank you all very much.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want
    to thank our witnesses for your testimony today.
        And if I could start with you, Mr. Schmiegel, I am curious.
    I want to talk a little bit about--we have seen recruitment
    efforts expand under President Trump's administration and
    delightfully so. We see more people wanting to join our Armed
    Services. And I am just curious. As our military plans to
    capitalize on that positive momentum, do you think
    communicating the advantages and opportunities for veterans to
    become entrepreneurs should be emphasized as more of a benefit
    in our nation's recruitment efforts?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. A hundred percent. I think the challenge
    that we have with recruitment--I wrote about this in an op-ed
    in The Hill a few weeks ago, and I said November 11 is not
    about serving veterans. November 11 is about veterans serving
    America.
        I think over time, since the Global War on Terror began,
    this proliferation of a broken veteran narrative has shaped
    propensity to serve and the willingness of young people. We
    have to tell the stories of successful small business owners,
    veterans who have gone back into society and have contributed
    to this country, the economy, and their communities. The more
    you tell young people that service leads to positive outcomes,
    the more likely they are to serve in future wars.
        Mr. JACK. Thank you very much.
        I noticed a positive reaction from you as well, Ms. Fox. I
    welcome thoughts from you on that.
        Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. I think that anytime
    you can lead with opportunity will be great. As I mentioned, 82
    percent of veteran entrepreneurs see that as an opportunity.
    And what we know is that, as you get out of the military, that
    sense of service and those peer-to-peer networks are paramount.
        We have the CEOcircle program that we run. Chris Lefebvre
    is a part of it. We have seen those graduates through those
    peer-to-peer networks get over $1.3 billion in capital and
    create over 650 jobs. So there is a huge amount of opportunity
    not only in the small business area but also as employees for
    those firms.
        I think one important thing is to make sure that they are
    not burdened by the regulations and other items that are taking
    away from the attention to starting and growing businesses but,
    obviously--as I said at the end of mine--that veterans have
    defended and built the American dream. They need their
    opportunity to make sure they can live it.
        Mr. JACK. Well said.
        And, Mr. Lefebvre, I am curious. As a veteran business
    owner, what additional training or educational opportunities do
    you wish you had received when you were still in the military
    that would have made the transition to becoming a business
    owner easier and more approachable?
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. At the time, nothing. It wasn't an idea that
    I had. Again, I did not know it was in the realm of the
    possible. And so, for me, offering an idea in TAP is a step
    forward. It is. But it has to start before then, the
    communication, the narrative. But the reality of taking
    specialized training, integration among a team, all of the
    leadership experience that is built over any servicemember's
    time--it needs to be able to be communicated that it does
    translate to the private sector. It does. And this is a viable
    option. But the communication has to start far before they are
    about to take their first step out the door.
        Mr. JACK. I am curious. Just in closing, as we wrap this
    hearing, Mr. Schmiegel, any closing thoughts and comments that
    you think should be punctuated as it relates to what we can do
    better to help serve our veteran business owners?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think, as much as possible, to talk to
    other Members in Congress. Whatever committees they are on, I
    think there is a fundamental responsibility to include veteran
    small business owners in conversations to get their input, to
    get their feedback, and to get the struggles that they turned
    into strengths, the challenges that they turned into
    opportunity, the trials that they turned into triumphs.
        I struggled myself with mental health issues after I left
    purpose-driven work at Hiring Our Heroes, but I found my way
    back to thriving. I found those five things that I needed in
    life. Not just meaningful employment, but a sense of purpose
    through service, a connected community and my tribe. I took
    better care of my health like I did when I was a Marine, and I
    am constantly seeking self-improvement. I want the same thing
    for every servicemember and every veteran.
        So I think small business owners are at the heart of
    growth, change, and impact, and we--we need a voice. We need a
    seat at the table. So, as much as you can encourage the HVAC,
    the SVAC, the Small Business Committee on the Senate side,
    Appropriations, anywhere that people will listen to us, I think
    we are going to make leaps and bounds improvements in what is
    happening right now with the decrease in small business
    ownership.
        Mr. JACK. Well, we are blessed to have sitting beside me a
    colleague in my freshman class, a veteran who is an incredible
    entrepreneur himself and an incredible business owner. So I am
    privileged to have that leadership on our Committee, and I
    think as--to you note, I hope more and more people get elected
    to Congress like Mr. Downing who have that incredible
    experience not just in the military but also the business life
    as well.
        Thank you very much. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Dr. Conaway from the great State of New
    Jersey for 5 minutes.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        When looking to ensure that small businesses have access to
    capital, it is also important to study what barriers small
    businesses face when attempting to access that capital. As
    Members of Congress, it is essential that we find ways to
    remove those barriers in order to provide the equity of access
    for small businesses across the nation. One of the greatest
    obligations Congress has is to ensure that men and women who
    served our country have all the support that they need.
        As a veteran myself and a Member of the House Veterans'
    Affairs Committee, I was proud to introduce the SERVE Act
    alongside my colleagues Congresswoman Davids and Congressman
    Alford. This legislation commissions the Government
    Accountability Office to study and report on the ability of
    veteran and reservist small business owners to access credit.
    This bill additionally requires Interagency Task Force on
    Veterans Small Business Development and to--a report on an
    action plan to promote the programs available to veterans. It
    is important that this important piece of legislation passed
    the House on the 24th. However, much work needs to be done.
        Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, can you speak more on some of the
    unique issues that veterans face when starting the process to
    access capital?
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Access to capital is one of those
    funny things that when you need it, you can't find it, and when
    you don't need it, you know, you can get it. So, yeah, it is
    definitely something that a lot of our veteran businesses have
    struggled with, even ones that are quite successful.
        One of our veteran businesses was just telling us that he
    was--he has a $42-million business that he is trying to get
    access to capital to win more contracts, and he had a hard time
    actually accessing capital for these future contracts. He had
    to go several times and try different ways to access some more
    capital in order to win these contracts.
        So we cannot have access to capital be a barrier for the
    veteran and small business community when they need it. These
    are people who have--he has had a successful business. He has
    shown that he can, you know, repay these loans and this
    investment. So we do need to make sure that we are just not
    rejecting veteran businesses or any veteran businesses for
    capital on minor things. So we really do need to pay attention
    to what kind of veteran business or what kind of business it is
    and look at the bigger picture and access--and give them more
    access to capital when they need it.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Ms. Fox, you had a comment?
        Ms. FOX. I would just like to--yes. I would just like to
    add a few of the statistics behind it. Thirty seven percent of
    entrepreneurs do face difficulty accessing capital, but 52
    percent of all entrepreneurs say that they need more tailored
    financial products as their finances grow. And I think that
    that is really important, is that it will not be a one-size-
    fits-all model. That is why we like to say it is about capital
    readiness. How can I get you ready for the right capital at the
    right time so that you can find it?
        And I think that is, again, back to navigation and credit
    repair at an earlier time, including during transition, so that
    we have a solid foundation so that business opportunity and
    business start-up is more of an option earlier. Thank you.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Go ahead.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir. I actually grew up in the State of
    New Jersey. My dad, a Vietnam-era veteran. I moved back when I
    was young, and I spent my formative years in Toms River, New
    Jersey. So it is great to see you.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Oh, friends there.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. And thank you for your service, too.
        I would just say we probably should look at what is
    happening in franchising versus just small business ownership
    in general. I mean, I think there are a number of opportunities
    there. There is a reason veterans own franchises at twice the
    rate of their civilian counterparts. And across all other
    businesses, we are seeing this nosedive, so we should study the
    two and look at the difference.
        ZeroMils is working with a company called Neighborly. It is
    the largest home service and maintenance company in the world.
    They were modeling military-thriving cultures. They have a goal
    of 20 percent new veteran franchise owners across the
    enterprise. It is 19 domestic brands representing 5,500 small
    business owners. Five hundred of them are veterans right now.
    The reason their programs are so successful is they provide
    better access to capital than a normal business owner.
        So think about the Vietnam-era veterans who are leaving
    their small businesses right now. That is why we see this
    nosedive, too. Let's say there was a veteran named Joe who owns
    a plumbing company. He could be handing that off to a younger
    veteran in franchising called Mr. Rooter, right? We have to
    think about these things and think about how we can streamline
    these processes.
        But I think we should study the two. There is a reason
    there is a difference, and any legislation that supports the
    franchising community should be considered as well.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all
    for being here. This is a topic that is particularly
    interesting to me having been an entrepreneur, having served in
    the military, and having served on organizations that mentor
    transitioning servicemembers out of the military careers and
    into the private sector.
        And, you know, for me personally, you know, I am a little
    bit of an anomaly. I was building a national real estate
    company--a commercial real estate company when I got activated
    in 2005 and sent to Afghanistan. And I was in combat search-
    and-rescue. My day started at sunset and ended at sunrise. So,
    during daylight, I was having wet-ink signature documents
    FedEx'd to Kandahar from conduit lenders as I was building my
    portfolio. So, you know, I have been in the trenches, you know,
    in more ways than one.
        But a couple things I want to talk about, and anybody who
    has served in the military understands this. You know, the
    military members--servicemembers are particularly suited for
    building small business. I mean, what are the issues that you
    have in starting a company? First of all, you have to have some
    risk tolerance. I mean, military, you understand risk
    tolerance. The other thing is you have to understand the value
    of teamwork and having the ability to put together a team and
    to depend on your team.
        And that is another thing that I think about often with
    these opportunities with servicemembers. When you are serving,
    when you are at the peak of your military career, you are the
    best person on this planet that knows how to do what you know
    how to do. You know your place. You know how to do your job.
    You know that you can depend on your team, and your team knows
    that they can depend on you.
        And you come out of that. You transition out of the
    military. Let's just face it. Most military members are not
    going to thrive being a greeter at a department store. You have
    to have something that drives you, something that has that
    risk, something where you are building a team and working on
    that team.
        So I think that, you know, the service community, you know,
    post service is particularly suited for this. And, you know, we
    have got about 1.9 million businesses across the United States
    that are veteran-owned. I have got about 12,000 in my home
    State of Montana. And I just really love this topic because it
    is something that is near and dear to me.
        I want to transition a little bit to discussing some of the
    barriers that veterans face when looking to start a business.
        Mr. Schmiegel, in your testimony, you mentioned that, for
    the first time since the end of World War II, veterans are less
    likely to own a small business than their civilian
    counterparts. You know, from your experience advising aspiring
    veteran entrepreneurs, why do you think this decline has
    occurred? Why do you think this has happened?
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Excuse me. Representative Downing, thank you
    for your service, too, sir. I appreciate your perspectives as
    an entrepreneur as well.
        I talked a little bit about this in my oral testimony. I
    think if you look at the GI Bill--post-World War II GI Bill
    versus today's GI Bill--there is a difference in empowering
    veterans who are coming home to own a small business versus
    post-9/11 veterans, which is more entitled. We are talking
    about their benefits, we are talking about traditional
    employment, and we are talking about education for a 4-year
    degree. We are completely missing the mark with the younger
    servicemembers who are leaving and with veterans and the
    opportunities that exist for them.
        So, in post-World War II GI Bill, there were low interest
    business loans. It is as simple as that. So, as we are
    investing money from the GI Bill, is there an option--is there
    an option for veterans to use their GI benefits to get the
    education, the training, and the capital they need to start a
    business like they did in World War II when 50 percent of
    veterans came home and started and operated a small business?
    That is the fundamental question.
        Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Thank you.
        Mr. Lefebvre, from your perspective as a veteran business
    owner, what factors do you believe have contributed to this
    decrease?
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question, and
    thank you for your service, sir.
        As you mentioned, and as I said in my testimony, this is
    not a talent problem. It is not a capability problem. I mean,
    the entrepreneurial system itself has evolved in such a way. It
    is so vast. It is so complex. And you have the transitioning
    servicemember that understands a truly codified system with
    guardrails on it--from SOPs, from culture, from mission-
    driven--and they are leaving that completely scared of what is
    next.
        And so although we can operate in an environment that deals
    with volatility and uncertainty and combat, the thought of what
    happens in civilian life is fundamentally polar to that. And so
    I think the fact that there is not this road map, there is not
    a clear SOP or process--which, in the military, that is how we
    operate--it is even more uncertain. So I think that that fear
    and lack of certainty aids in it.
        Mr. DOWNING. Right. So I am going to move on a little bit
    in the interest of time.
        Despite developing skills in their time in the military,
    servicemembers often lack access to capital and networks needed
    for effective entrepreneurship when they retire. There are
    federal programs like the DOD's Transition Assistance Program,
    SBA's Office of Veterans Business Development, et cetera,
    helping this.
        So I am going to move to Ms. Fox. From your experience
    working with veterans through the Institute for Veterans and
    Military Families, how would you assess the current
    effectiveness of the SBA and its outreach to aspiring veteran
    entrepreneurs?
        Ms. FOX. I think right now, the challenge--thank you for
    the question. I think right now, the challenge with that
    outreach--in the interest of time--would be the connectivity.
    So making sure that veterans know about the resources and are
    ambassadors of the resources will be key.
        Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you. Unfortunately, I have run out
    of time. I can talk about this all day. But thank you all for
    your testimony.
        And, with that, Mr. Chair, I yield.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of New
    Hampshire for 5 minutes.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much
    to our witnesses for being here today.
        Mr. Schmiegel, Mr. Lefebvre--tell us how to pronounce your
    name. I have heard it seven different ways.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Lefebvre.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. Lefebvre. Thank you. I want to thank you
    both for your service to our country and your continued service
    to our country as entrepreneurs and what you are doing for our
    small businesses.
        This is such an important topic. I serve on the House Armed
    Services Committee, and I am really grateful that you are here
    today. When I think about the transition from service to start-
    up, it is really the ultimate expression and continuation of
    patriotism in its purest form, and I am very focused and
    committed to doing everything I can on this Committee and on
    the Armed Services Committee to make the changes that we know
    we need to see.
        You know, I am the proud daughter of a Navy veteran who
    went on to start a small business. I served in the Navy. And
    every single day on this job, I get to see in my great State of
    New Hampshire what veterans are doing for our small business--
    for our small businesses and for our economy in New Hampshire.
    And, in New Hampshire, we are very lucky. We are outperforming
    the national average of veteran-owned small businesses. We have
    got more than 8,000 of them across our State. They are 7
    percent of small businesses overall, which is above the
    national average.
        But, as you point out very powerfully, when we look over
    time and in our history, you know, at the height of just after
    the Second World War when the GI Bill was written in a way that
    was going to be most useful to us, 50 percent of servicemembers
    went on as veterans to start small businesses. We have talked
    about the reasons why that is the case. You know, this is--it
    is the teamwork, it is the ability to transform challenges into
    opportunities, it is the basic focus on problem-solving. You
    see a problem, and you find a way to fix it.
        And I just want to say I recently had a chance to spend
    some time with a veteran who started a small business in New
    Hampshire. He really put everything he learned and everything
    he did to serve our country in the military into starting a
    small business. He saw a problem, which is that our country
    relies on China and Russia for critical minerals in a way that
    is very dangerous to our national security. He saw specifically
    that germanium, a critical mineral that is used in optics that
    keeps our servicemembers equipped, could be recycled and in a
    way that was actually going to help our bottom line for our
    economy and for our national security. And he started a small
    business that actually recycles germanium and could be a huge--
    of huge value to our country. So this is one of many examples
    that we see.
        But one of the things I hear again and again is that the
    Transition Assistance Program--and I have heard it from both of
    you today--the Transition Assistance Program, or TAP, is of
    very little value to most veterans who go on to start small
    businesses.
        I want to ask you both, having gone through that program,
    was there anything that worked in it, and can we count on you
    to help us think through the changes that need to be made to
    TAP to really make it worth our while? This is a program that
    should be doing a lot more work than it is doing now for our
    country.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you for your question, and thank you
    for your service. As you also went through TAP, you likely have
    an individual experience.
        What I would offer--I did get some benefit out of it.
    Thinking back--and, again, I exited in 2008, 2009 timeframe--it
    was a very different TAP then than it is now. And so I did
    learn about education and benefits. And so for me looking back,
    in honesty, that was the sole benefit.
        And one of the primary challenges with the TAP program
    right now is it is a one-size-fits-all solution for every
    servicemember regardless of rank, specialty, and experience.
    And that is really challenging to be effective when it is
    simply a one-size-fits-all. What is for a lieutenant colonel
    when he is retiring and coming out of TAP and a PFC that is
    exiting after 3 years--those are two very different needs, and
    it just isn't an effective program as it is written now to
    cover that wide breadth.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think TAP has evolved a lot, to Mr.
    Lefebvre's point. There is an executive TAP course that kind of
    creates that differentiation so that careerists--officers and
    staff NCOs that serve for 20 or more years--have the
    opportunity to learn about these opportunities at greater rates
    than some of our junior-enlisted folks that are in the
    military.
        I think this is--again, I don't want to be contrarian, but
    closing apertures by allowing the same organizations to impact
    TAP with a GS-12 who had never been in the private sector or
    even a nonprofit leader--giving them access over people who are
    actually living and breathing the challenges is the problem. We
    need to open apertures. We need to help servicemembers make
    better, more informed decisions based on, like, what are their
    strengths? What are their weaknesses? Like CliftonStrengths,
    right? What do you want to do with the next chapter of your
    life?
        The problem that we have is we put in their brains that
    they need entitlements when they just need to be empowered.
    They earned the title just like you did, right? You earned the
    title sailor. You earned the title veteran, just like you are
    serving today. That is what I want them to know.
        And that directly relates to the next generation serving
    our country. They see us as broken, too. Sixty two percent of
    young people in America--this is DOD's figure from 2023--think
    that every veteran and every servicemember leaving the military
    will have a psychological disorder.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I thank our witnesses, and I yield
    back. I look forward to working with you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the great Northern
    Mariana Islands for 5 minutes.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to
    the witnesses for making time to be with us today. So as the
    Chairman has said, I am from the Northern Mariana Islands, and
    the GAO reports that we have the second highest enlistment rate
    in any State or territory, second only to Guam. Right.
        Which means that in a couple of years most of the people in
    my community are going to be veterans. And there isn't a single
    household in the CNMI now that does not have a veteran living
    in that household.
        I am sitting here and I was preparing for today's hearing
    and I was looking up some studies that have been done with
    regards to some of the barriers that vets face when it comes to
    financial literacy and small business lending.
        And this 2023 report states that the biggest barrier
    basically is building credit and financial history, challenges
    obtaining financing from large banks, limited networks,
    mentoring or business relationships, low representation in SBA
    back loans, weak program, oversight and inconsistent support
    from SBA.
        But when they conduct these reports there are no
    suggestions sometimes with regards to how do we fix it. What is
    the policy change. And I want to do less talking and hear from
    you, each of you to give your insight. And we will start with
    you, Mr. Schmiegel.
        Mr. SCHMIEGEL. First of all, I think you hit a really
    important point, like my dad was a Marine, my son is a Marine,
    I am a Marine, so this handoff from generation to generation
    needs to be addressed, too, and we need to make sure that we
    continue those legacies of service.
        You know, for me, the opportunity lies with actionable
    solutions. So I made a point earlier in my testimony that I am
    not crying in my milk, like I am literally creating actionable
    solutions with a number of stakeholders in communities. So we
    will be in Charlotte, we will be in Dallas, we will be in
    Southern California modeling the solution.
        I think small business owners are at the heart of this, and
    we are going to mobilize big businesses, nonprofits, government
    agencies at the State and local level where this will be
    solved, and then replicated in other places. So the solution,
    again, is the most important thing.
        And in the absence of anything changing, we are going to
    create a seat for veteran small business owners at the local
    level, model it, create the first military thriving region of
    the country, and then show people what right looks like. It
    will be the small business owners that will answer the problems
    that exist in this country.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you.
        Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. And to add to that a
    little bit, if you really look at what gives strength in
    capital readiness, credit and underwriting, coaching, I think
    that we have some opportunities to create veteran specific
    underwriting guidance that might look at nontraditional forms
    as capital and revenue streams as qualifying as income.
        I think that we also have to look at what are the amounts
    that veterans are going for. So if you look at startup, it is
    about $25,000. And if you look at scale, it is $50,000 or more.
    That is typically not a bankable amount. So there is a
    continuum of capital access that needs better education around
    when do you go to the right part of capital, and at what time
    so that we can lessen the amount of denial.
        As I mentioned earlier, veterans are denied at about 6
    percent higher than their civilian counterparts, and that right
    there is critical because once that denial happens, it starts
    to shut down the opportunity of business ownership.
        So I think through a connected network and through
    resources that can offer in-kind provisions so that veterans
    aren't having to spend every dollar on every small thing, and,
    also, shared peer-to-peer networks we will solve for capital
    access because veterans will then better understand what
    resource do I go to, how do I get ready for it, and how can I
    access it. And that is a big challenge that we have right now,
    that veterans will look for capital in the wrong places and
    that will hurt their chances to grow their businesses.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you. Mr. Lefebvre.
        Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, ma'am. I think the direct answer to your
    question is to look in the Veteran Entrepreneurship Empowerment
    Act already. I mean, there is a waiver of an SBA guarantee fee
    for loans less than or equal to a million dollars, there are
    lowered down payments and equity injection requirements for
    small loans, as Ms. Fox is talking about, and mandated data
    collection and transparency on those SBA loans, for the direct
    answer to the question.
        But you mentioned something that is potentially far more
    important when we think about the continuum here, it is
    financial literacy. And so what are we doing while veterans
    while still active duty are broadening the nature of what they
    know. It is too late when they have exited and now they are
    trying to figure out the parameters of a loan and why they are
    not qualifying for it.
        Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I was going to agree, pathway to
    credit repair, sometimes when you are looking for a loan as a
    small business and you don't have any options, you have to go
    to a nontraditional and the interest rates will kill you. So,
    you know, looking for financial literacy so you don't have to
    go to those nontraditional loan places. Thanks.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. I am out of time. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. And I want
    to thank our witnesses today. It has been a great panel, and we
    appreciate all of you for your testimony and for appearing
    before us today.
        Without objection, Members have five legislative days to
    submit additional materials and written questions for the
    witnesses to the Chair which will be forwarded to the
    witnesses. And I would like to ask the witnesses to please
    respond promptly if that happens.
        If there is no further business, without objection, this
    Committee is adjourned. May God bless, and have a great holiday
    and Christmas season for you.
        [Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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