    [House Hearing, 119 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                    STREAMING SUCCESS: SMALL BUSINESSES IN THE
                            AGE OF DIGITAL INFLUENCE

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                 UNITED STATES
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  HEARING HELD

                               SEPTEMBER 17, 2025

                                   __________

                     [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                Small Business Committee Document Number 119-021
                 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

                                   ______

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    61-899                    WASHINGTON : 2026

                       HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                        ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                            PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                            DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                             BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                               JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                             MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                             NICK LALOTA, New York
                            BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
                              TONY WIED, Wisconsin
                          ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
                              BRIAN JACK, Georgia
                             TROY DOWNING, Montana
                 KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
                             DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
                            JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
                   NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                           MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                           HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                          LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
                            GIL CISNEROS, California
                           KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
                            GEORGE LATIMER, New York
                             DEREK TRAN, California
                           LATEEFAH SIMON, California
                           JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
                            HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
                        MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

                     Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director
                     Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                       Page
    Hon. Roger Williams..............................................     1
    Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     2

                                   WITNESSES

    Ms. Kayla Moran, Founder and Attorney, Kayla Moran Law, Coral
      Gables, FL.....................................................     5
    Ms. Christina Brennan, President, Renegade Talent Mgmt/
      CelebExperts LLC, Endicott, NY.................................     7
    Mr. Nicholas Luciano, Founder and Chief Executive Officer,
      Tratter House, Millsap, TX.....................................     8
    Mr. Jesse Appell, Founder and Owner, Jesse's Tea House, Los
      Angeles, CA....................................................    10

                                    APPENDIX

    Prepared Statements:
        Ms. Kayla Moran, Founder and Attorney, Kayla Moran Law, Coral
          Gables, FL.................................................    39
        Ms. Christina Brennan, President, Renegade Talent Mgmt/
          CelebExperts LLC, Endicott, NY.............................    47
        Mr. Nicholas Luciano, Founder and Chief Executive Officer,
          Tratter House, Millsap, TX.................................    49
        Mr. Jesse Appell, Founder and Owner, Jesse's Tea House, Los
          Angeles, CA................................................    51
    Questions for the Record:
        None.
    Answers for the Record:
        None.
    Additional Material for the Record:
        Cornell University...........................................    54
        Engine Letter................................................    57
        House Committee on Small Business Democratic Staff Letter....    60
        House Committee on Small Business Democratic Staff Letter 2..    79

                    STREAMING SUCCESS: SMALL BUSINESSES IN THE
                            AGE OF DIGITAL INFLUENCE

                                  ----------

                         WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2025

                      House of Representatives,
                   Committee on Small Business,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 2:04 p.m., in Room
    2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams
    [chairman of the Committee] presiding.
        Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Alford, LaLota,
    Jack, Downing, King-Hinds, Schmidt, Patronis, Velazquez,
    McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros, Olszewski, Conaway, and
    Goodlander.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to
    recognize Congressman Alford from the great State of Missouri
    to lead us in the pledge and the prayer. Would you please
    stand.
        Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Chair.
        Let's go in that order. We'll start with the Pledge of
    Allegiance.
        I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of
    America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation,
    under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
        Our dear Father in Heaven, we just thank you for this day.
    Thank you that we have it to be here to make positive change
    for America in small businesses. God, we thank you for our
    Chair and our Ranking Member, for their leadership, and
    bringing this Committee together for the common purpose of
    supporting small businesses and making those improvements to
    the SBA where we can.
        God, I thank you for the witnesses here today. Give them
    patience with us sometimes and us with them, and just help us
    to learn something, that we can take that knowledge for the
    betterment of America, and give them a safe trip home. It is
    through Jesus Christ we pray. Amen.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Amen.
        Good afternoon, everyone. I now call the Committee on Small
    Business to order.
        And without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
    recess of the Committee at any time.
        I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
        Welcome to today's hearing, titled ``Streaming Success:
    Small Business in the Age of Digital Influence.'' Today we will
    examine one of the fastest growing sectors of our economy:
    content creation. While some may think of content creators only
    as online personalities, they really are a new generation of
    entrepreneurs taking risk in navigating the rapidly growing
    industry.
        Content creators are more than just entertainers. They are
    small business owners, entrepreneurs, and job creators. They
    have transformed digital influence into sustainable careers by
    launching product lines, providing education, and creating
    loyal communities around everything from sports to law.
        In fact, more than 1.5 million Americans now earn a full-
    time living as creators. Americans are building small
    businesses through platforms like YouTube. YouTube itself
    contributes $55 billion and half a million jobs to the American
    economy. Globally, this sector is already valued over $250
    billion, and it is projected to drive $2 trillion in social
    commerce by 2026.
        The impact of this economy goes far beyond the creators
    themselves. A single successful creator fuels jobs for editors,
    designers, video producers, product manufacturers, and
    countless other small businesses. This superb--or this
    spiderweb effect shows what content creators aren't just
    building brands but powering an entire ecosystem of small
    business growth. But as with any small business, they face real
    challenges. Unique tax situations, unpredictable revenue
    streams, and costly intellectual property protections create
    barriers for these small business owners. Like this Committee
    has seen too often, red tape makes it difficult for these
    entrepreneurs.
        So the creator economy is a prime example of the American
    entrepreneur spirit. Creators are innovative, they are fiercely
    competitive, and contribute greatly to America's economy. By
    reducing barriers and ensuring the government does not stand in
    the way, we can ensure that these small businesses have the
    freedom to thrive and grow in a digital economy. So I look
    forward to today's discussion.
        I now recognize my distinguished Ranking Member and my
    friend for her opening remarks, Ms. Velazquez from New York.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman--and good afternoon,
    everyone--for calling this important hearing.
        Like with any emerging technology, nobody could fully
    foresee the economic and social implications of social media as
    it has been. Since then, the landscape of social media has
    evolved. America is now home to a novel content creation
    industry worth billions of dollars.
        Content creators come from assorted backgrounds, and their
    paths to content creation are just as diverse. Many are owners
    of traditional small businesses, looking to advertise their
    goods and services to new audiences. Others post about topics
    that they are passionate in, go viral, and connect with their
    devout following, and a golden opportunity for ad revenue
    develops almost overnight. With the low to nonexistent capital
    requirements and cost of starting and operating a social media
    page, coupled with the prospects of instant fame, it is no
    wonder so many American youths today dream of becoming content
    creators.
        America's content creators often encounter longstanding
    issues that this Committee has addressed time and time again.
    As the world becomes more interconnected, especially in the
    online sphere, tariffs are an outside barrier to content
    creators looking to grow their small businesses through product
    and merchandise sales.
        This spring, I led 67 colleagues in sending a letter to the
    Trump administration's U.S. Trade Representative, Treasury
    Department, Commerce Department, and SBA, calling on them to
    consider and address the needs of small businesses in their
    tariff decisions. I still have not received a response from the
    Trade Representative or Commerce Secretary.
        Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter the letter
    into the record.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. With the new technologies and new industry
    come new challenges. The rise of social media has also seen the
    rise of online hate and harassment, the side effects of
    algorithmic content creation, the proliferation of content
    harmful to children, and the drowning of our discourse with AI
    slop. I would also be remiss if I did not address the elephant
    in the room: the ban on one of America's most important social
    media platforms, TikTok.
        TikTok has given small businesses a lifeline in a sea of
    inflation, labor shortages, and ever-changing consumer
    preferences. With this tool in their toolboxes, small business
    owners can expand their reach and sales far beyond their
    hometowns, making them profitable and sustainable. Now we are
    in TikTok limbo. After President Trump's attempt to ban TikTok
    through executive action and Congress' subsequent legislative
    action, he has suddenly U-turned and is repeatedly delaying the
    ban's enforcement for short periods of time. In fact, the last
    delay was supposed to expire today and was only reextended
    yesterday by 3 months.
        President Trump claims he will reach a deal to keep TikTok
    available in America within 30 to 45 days, but it hasn't been
    finalized. Such short timeframes create uncertainty for the
    content creators that rely on this platform, rendering them
    unable to plan beyond a 2-month horizon and adding immeasurable
    pressure to their business models.
        America's content creators deserve a federal government
    that is willing and able to support their endeavors. That
    requires responsive agency and strong, stable public policy
    conducive to a prosperous business environment. It also means
    enacting thoughtful policies to rein in harmful content when
    necessary.
        With that, I thank all the witnesses for your presence
    today, and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now will introduce our witnesses. First witness here with
    us today is Ms. Kayla Moran. Ms. Moran is an attorney and the
    founder of Kayla Moran Law based in Miami, Florida. Ms. Moran
    began her career as a personal injury attorney before finding
    her own firm--founding her own firm to represent creators and
    entrepreneurs in the growing creator economy. She is also the
    host of ``The Let's Get Candid'' podcast, where she inspires
    young women to pursue their passions and build careers on their
    own terms. Ms. Moran earned her J.D. from the University of
    Tennessee College of Law, and holds a bachelor's degree from
    the University of Central Florida. We are looking to your
    testimony this morning--or today.
        Our next witness here with us today is Ms. Christina
    Brennan. Ms. Brennan is the president of CelebExperts located
    in New York City. She began her career in sales with the New
    York Yankees----
        Did you sell them out?
        Ms. BRENNAN. You know it. Top of the board.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay.--and quickly rose to the talent
    industry, becoming the youngest vice president of CelebExperts
    history, while growing a roster of over 30 exclusive
    influencers with a reach of more than 46 million followers. Ms.
    Brennan now oversees partnerships, brand strategy, and talent
    management for top-tier clients across the sports, food, and
    digital career industries, having aggregated tens of millions
    of dollars for both startups and Fortune 500 companies. Ms.
    Brennan earned her bachelor of science in sports management
    from Syracuse University.
        Thank you for joining us today.
        The next witness we welcome today is a constituent of mine,
    Mr. Nicholas Luciano from Weatherford, Texas. Mr. Luciano is
    the founder and chief executive officer of Tratter House
    located in Weatherford, as I spoke. Mr. Luciano worked as a
    mechanical engineer for the U.S. Department of Defense before
    making a pivot in 2020 to launch his own brand and media
    company. Since then, he has grown a digital audience of over 8
    million, generated a 7-figure revenue through brand deals and
    merchandise, and helped companies expand their online presence.
    Nicholas earned his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering
    technology from the University of North Texas, the Mean Green.
        And thank you for traveling here from the great State of
    Texas to testify for us today, Nicholas.
        I now recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms.
    Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing
    before us today.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Jesse Appell is a comedian and entrepreneur, owning and
    operating Jesse's Teahouse, an e-commerce business specializing
    in high-quality tea and tea accessories. Born and raised in the
    Boston area, Mr. Appell became a Fulbright scholar, studying
    standup comedy in China, an experience he leveraged to begin
    posting about Chinese tea on TikTok during the COVID pandemic.
    Later, he went viral, used the attention to launch a tea
    business, and still posts today about his products,
    intercultural exchange, and his greatest standup hits. His work
    has also been featured on TEDx, PBS, NPR, and Chinese media.
    Mr. Appell holds a bachelor's degree in East Asian studies and
    international and global studies from Brandeis University.
        Welcome, Mr. Appell.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. If you are a comedian, you are going to
    do great up here.
        We appreciate all of you being here again before us. And
    before recognizing, I want to--I would like to remind that oral
    testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. And if you see
    the light turn on in front of you, if it is red, if it turns
    on, it means your 5 minutes has concluded and you should wrap
    up your testimony. And if you keep going, you are going to hear
    this, and it will just get louder and louder, and finally you
    are going to have to stop, okay. I know you will do it just
    right. So anyways, it will be easy.
        I now recognize Ms. Moran for her 5-minute opening remarks.

    STATEMENTS OF MS. KAYLA MORAN, FOUNDER & ATTORNEY, KAYLA MORAN
     LAW; MS. CHRISTINA BRENNAN, PRESIDENT, CELEBEXPERTS LLC; MR.
     NICHOLAS LUCIANO, FOUNDER & CEO, TRATTER HOUSE; AND MR. JESSE
               APPELL, FOUNDER & OWNER, JESSE'S TEAHOUSE

                        STATEMENT OF KAYLA MORAN

        Ms. MORAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ms. Ranking Member
    of the Committee, for the opportunity to speak with you today.
    And thank you to my fellow experts for joining me in giving
    creators in the creator economy a platform.
        My name is Kayla Moran, and I am the founder and managing
    attorney of Kayla Moran Law, a dedicated creator economy firm
    with an innovative creator-first approach to help influencers
    and entrepreneurs build, scale, and protect their businesses. I
    am a first-generation American born to a Latin family in Miami.
    My father is a Marine Corps veteran turned banker, and my
    mother is an operations executive.
        I entered this industry as a creator myself in 2018, and
    during the rise of TikTok, I realized creators need lawyers who
    understand their perspective. I have been a small business
    owner in the creator economy for over 4 years, first as a
    blogger and podcast host, then as an influencer manager, and
    now as an attorney.
        The story of American entrepreneurship is changing. Today,
    the storefronts of main street have moved online. The creator
    economy with its low barriers to entry and flexibility open new
    career paths for Americans. Starting in its early years with
    bloggers and evolving into marketing agencies hiring social
    media influencers, the creator economy has disrupted
    traditional and costly multimillion dollar marketing
    productions. It has become a very lucrative career path, and
    now creators need Congressional backed support and protection
    to support and protect them as they navigate the industry as it
    continues to grow.
        Running a business from a phone allows millions of
    Americans to turn their skills, voices, and ideas into
    businesses. Creators can turn side hustles into careers, stay
    at home while still putting food on the table, and students can
    even pay their way through college.
        While the average American may discredit influencing as a
    hobby, Goldman Sachs, in their 2023 creator economy report,
    projected the industry could grow to almost $0.5 trillion by
    2027. In the U.S., there are full strategic teams at marketing
    agencies sourcing the right influencer for their client's
    marketing goals and allocating million-dollar budgets. And
    these businesses, at the heart of economic growth, deserve the
    same protections as traditional ones.
        The Small Business Administration's mission of providing
    aid and protecting the interest of small business owners should
    be extended to this industry. Creative entrepreneurs need
    access to dedicated creator economy experts, including lawyers,
    accountants, and wealth management services, to give them the
    same level of support and protection the SBA provides to
    restaurants and mechanic shops so they feel equally valued and
    respected.
        The rise of the creator economy has elevated the importance
    of the right of publicity, the ability to commercialize your
    name, image, and likeness, and it requires federal attention.
    Currently this right is governed by a patchwork of inconsistent
    State laws originally designed to protect privacy, which gives
    little guidance to creators across State lines. Federal
    statutory guidance would be helpful to us as service
    professionals seeking to standardize a very cyclical industry.
        Managers are not always equipped with the resources to
    support their clients. Perhaps creator economy lawyers having a
    federal license similar to the patent bar could be a solution.
    If creators know to hire an attorney, they turn to their
    neighborhood lawyer, but the issues impacting this growing
    cohort of American entrepreneurs needs dedicated and tailored
    support, which we could provide if we were not in fear of
    triggering unauthorized practice-of-law issues.
        Another growing concern is the concentration of power among
    a few large marketing agencies. This trend toward
    monopolization is creating a severe imbalance in bargaining
    power between contracting parties. Due to the overall lack of
    education and the legal implications of intellectual property
    ownership and other deal terms, marketing agencies are
    restricting a creator's ability to negotiate their rights while
    continuing to offload their responsibilities of production and
    distribution, leaving all parties frustrated.
        Similarly, the one-sided payment terms marketing agencies
    rely on hinder a creator's ability to earn a steady income.
    Often payment terms are net 60 or net 90, meaning a creator
    won't be paid for their work for up to 3 months, and payments
    are still late or they never come. Unfortunately, creators are
    unaware that they can sue in small claims court. And the
    ineffective governing law clauses in these agreements, if they
    are present at all, are yet another disadvantage they face.
        While Congress is currently acknowledging the mental health
    of minors on social media, and there are a few scattered State
    laws that require protective financial trust for children
    performers, another issue is the lack of national oversight
    enabling forum shopping and exploitation of child creators
    where no regulations exist.
        And, lastly, there are growing platform volatility issues
    creators face with the rise of AI and account hacking. Right
    now, a creator's only mechanism to recover their account and
    loss of income is a Digital Millennium Copyright Act takedown.
    However, because a DMCA takedown action often requires
    registration of an account holder's trademarks and/or
    copyright, which is cost prohibitive at volume, and creators
    are often unaware these traditional IP protections are
    available to them, it is not the most feasible option. This
    impacts small businesses using social media as well, where
    there is a growing practice of bigger companies using the DMCA
    takedown tools built into platforms to restrict and shut down
    their competition, what are traditionally considered unfair
    trade practices.
        I hope I have demonstrated today how creators are small
    business owners and how they need the same infrastructure of
    support and protection that other American entrepreneurs
    receive. This is a pivotal moment, and I am honored to be here.
    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Great job.
        And I now recognize Ms. Brennan for her 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                     STATEMENT OF CHRISTINA BRENNAN

        Ms. BRENNAN. Good afternoon, Chairman Williams, Ranking
    Member Velazquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee.
    My name is Christina Brennan, and I am honored to appear before
    you today to discuss the impact of social media on small
    businesses, entrepreneurs, and local economies.
        When people think of social media, they often picture a
    feed of birthday photos, vacation selfies, or the occasional
    ``no excuses'' gym post. But beneath the surface is an entire
    web and ecosystem of commerce. Social media is a marketplace, a
    workplace, and in many cases, a lifeline for small and large
    businesses alike.
        In the United States, the social media industry has grown
    into a multihundred-billion-dollar industry, touching
    everything from advertising and publishing to retail and
    entertainment. But its impact is perhaps most deeply felt by
    small businesses. For a restaurant owner, a craftsman, or a
    young college athlete building her brand, social media isn't
    just marketing, it is survival and it is scale.
        For influencers, whether they have a few hundred followers
    or millions, revenue streams are diverse: brand partnerships,
    affiliate revenue, platform payments, merchandise, and even
    their own product lines. Every influencer fuels an ecosystem of
    offshoot businesses: attorneys, assistants, editors, publishing
    houses, and managers like myself. Some even play strategic
    roles in fundraising and acquisitions for emerging startups.
        Consider Azuna, a Buffalo-based brand whose digital
    strategy helped it scale to 25 employees, a Buffalo Bills
    partnership, and four agencies. Additionally, they have
    contracted over 100 influencers, some of which sit on their cap
    table. Or Chef Darian Bryan, an immigrant entrepreneur with
    multiple restaurants and a recent Snickers campaign at Highmark
    Stadium creating food so delicious it would make you want to
    break a table. These are local economic engines powered by
    digital reach.
        And the beauty of social media is its accessibility. I
    helped scale CelebExperts and Renegade Talent Management while
    living outside Fort Bragg, North Carolina, as a proud military
    spouse. Unlike many in my community who face staggering
    unemployment rates, I was fortunate to continue my career
    remotely. Social media allows for people to earn a living,
    contribute to their families, and bring economic opportunity to
    their hometowns in various locations, whether that is Buffalo,
    Fayetteville, or Endicott, New York.
        Most recently, our organization has begun work in the NIL
    space, specifically, young, dynamic women who are learning to
    build long-lasting businesses around passions that they love.
    This next generation represents not just a cultural shift but a
    chance to democratize entrepreneurship itself.
        But as powerful as this industry is, it faces real
    challenges. Today, I would like to highlight three. First, cash
    flow. Too often, influencer partnerships are paid months after
    services are delivered. For many creators and small businesses,
    waiting that long is not just difficult, it is unsustainable. I
    do want to add, we were one of the first ever influencer
    agencies, and that is not how it was when this originally
    started.
        Second, the rise of AI. We are entering a world where it is
    increasingly difficult to know what is real and what is fake.
    Bot influencers, content theft, dubbing, and misrepresentations
    don't just hurt credibility, but it can have dangerous
    consequences.
        Third, the resource gap. Many new entrepreneurs lack the
    knowledge to navigate contracts and offers. Education and
    transparency in this space are critical. This isn't just about
    the creators I manage, it is about the creators I don't.
        Social media is no longer just about pictures and posts. It
    is about people, jobs, and communities. It deserves thoughtful
    consideration, protection, and support as we navigate its
    future together.
        Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Luciano for his 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                     STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS LUCIANO

        Mr. LUCIANO. Good afternoon, Chairman, Ranking Member, and
    Members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to
    speak with you all today. My name is Nick Luciano. I grew up in
    Maryland, not far from here, but for the last 10 years, I have
    called Weatherford, Texas home. I came to Texas, fell in love
    with the western lifestyle--riding, roping, and rodeo--and I
    built my life there.
        Before I ever made a piece of content, I earned a degree in
    mechanical engineering technology from the University of North
    Texas, and worked for 3 years as a mechanical engineer for the
    Department of Defense. My job was to design protective systems
    and run high-speed cameras to safeguard our soldiers. That
    experience taught me problem solving, systems thinking, and
    responsibility at the highest level.
        I bring that same mindset to the digital space. Along the
    way, I have built an audience of over 8 million followers
    across platforms, and I have created the third most-liked
    TikTok in the entire world. That moment showed me that, not
    only the global impact of this new digital landscape, but also
    that I have played a role in help crafting and shape it.
        I first started posting content not to get famous but to
    help people. I realized that something as simple as a video
    could reach someone at just the right time. In college, I would
    get messages from classmates saying my posts encouraged them to
    keep pushing forward. But years later, I have received messages
    from people saying that my videos have literally saved their
    lives.
        One man wrote--he actually emailed me while he was sitting
    on the tailgate of his truck, ready to end it all, but after
    coming across my video, he didn't pull the trigger. I was
    crying in an airport when that happened. Moments like that
    showed me that this work is bigger than clicks and likes. It is
    about impact. It is about using digital platforms to reach
    people, to build trust, and to create positive changes.
        That is where my journey shifted from being ``just an
    influencer'' to becoming what I call a creatorpreneur.
    Influencers chase trends and attention, but creatorpreneurs
    like me build businesses, solve problems, create jobs, while
    still connecting with millions of people online. For me that
    meant founding Tratter House, the first western lifestyle
    content house. What started as a group of creators under one
    roof, grown into a business that partners with major brands
    like Ariat, Spotify, Red Bull, et cetera; and we support
    artists like Bailey Zimmerman and Will Moseley; and now we are
    focused on artist development and marketing strategy.
        We don't just post videos, we roadmap careers. We help
    artists build merchandise lines, manage online stores, and
    craft content strategies that cut through the noise. We also
    run a nonprofit, the Tratter Foundation, where every year we
    fly a family to Texas to give them a once-in-a-lifetime western
    experience.
        Tratter House has created jobs directly--my cofounders,
    full-time team members, editors, accountants, merch members--
    and indirectly, through partnerships with printers, fulfilment
    companies, record labels, rodeos, and a bunch of small
    businesses across the country.
        Our biggest win to date has been helping our new artist,
    Tyce Delk. We launched his debut single. And with our strategy,
    his very first release hit over 5 million streams in just under
    a month, reached number one on Spotify Viral 50 in both the USA
    and Canada, climbed to number six on Texas radio, and charted
    globally. That is not just a viral moment, that is building a
    foundation for a sustainable career, and it is proof that
    digital creators like me can generate real economic results.
        But here is the challenge. When many people hear the word
    ``influencer,'' they picture kids making silly videos for
    clicks, and that is a stigma that I want to break. Behind the
    scenes, many of us are educated, disciplined, and purpose-
    driven. We are running teams, managing payrolls, filing taxes,
    and partnering with brands and other small businesses. We are
    contributing to the economy just like any other entrepreneur.
    That is why the term I prefer is ``creatorpreneur,'' because,
    yes, I create content, but I also employ people, serve clients,
    and build businesses.
        My vision for the future is clear. The creators who
    endure--who build trust, and serve their audiences, and
    innovate in business--are the next generation of entrepreneurs.
    We are not just chasing clicks; we are building foundations. We
    understand how to attract millions of people online, nurture
    those relationships, and channel that trust into businesses,
    nonprofits, and movements that make a real difference.
        And if I could leave you with one takeaway, it is this:
    People like me aren't in it for the money and fame. We are in
    it to change lives, build businesses, and strengthen
    communities. We are part of a new economy, one rooted in trust,
    creativity, and purpose. So when you think about influencers, I
    ask you to see us not as just entertainers but
    creatorpreneurs--innovators, small business owners, and job
    creators who are here to stay.
        Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your
    questions.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        I now recognize Mr. Appell for his 5-minute opening
    remarks.

                       STATEMENT OF JESSE APPELL

        Mr. APPELL. Good afternoon, Chairman Williams, Ranking
    Member Velazquez, and Members of the Small Business Committee,
    and to everybody watching on YouTube. I want to thank you all
    for the honor and opportunity to represent my fellow creator
    small businesses and to farm the aura of this esteemed chamber.
        My name is Jesse Appell. I am the founder of Jesse's
    Teahouse. I run an online teahouse, which is really two
    businesses--it is a media company and an e-commerce business.
    Every day, my 1.5 million followers watch me make and drink
    tea, and some of these followers actually buy the tea that I
    drink. As of today, we have sent over 80,000 orders to
    customers all over the country.
        I source my teas from farmers in China and Taiwan, many of
    whom I met during my time as a Fulbright research fellow in
    China. My work as a cultural ambassador has now moved online,
    and I spend several months a year in Asia, going to tea
    mountains, filming videos with our farmers so people can see
    the tea that they are drinking and know the people who grow it.
    I started this business with my own savings from my dad's
    kitchen during COVID, and it has just been amazing to see how
    it has grown.
        I get tons of messages from customers who have shared a tea
    time with their spouse or kids or parents, but sometimes emails
    even go deeper. One customer was a veteran who told me that the
    ritual of tea making, along with the socialization of inviting
    people over, was the best treatment for PTSD that he had found
    so far. Another told me that he had replaced hard drugs with
    tea, swapping one habit for another and the mantra, ``Only tea
    in the house.''
        All of this good is possible because of two uniquely
    American pillars: a free internet, where I can share my story;
    and a free market that allows me to sell the best tea in the
    world. It is to the protection and improvement of those free
    systems that I hope to call the committee's attention today.
        On challenges related to internet freedoms, the most
    immediate issue for my business is the potential banning of
    TikTok. A few hours before this statement was due, news broke
    that there was a TikTok deal. And if there is a good deal, I
    think that is excellent news for creators. If TikTok is banned,
    I lose 600,000 followers and sales losses likely in the
    hundreds of thousands.
        But even if the TikTok deal is perfect, this process was
    not comfortable for creators. There was a real chance that
    creating what amounts to an American version of the great
    firewall, which would have solved this problem with reactive
    isolation rather than the American ideals of openness, law, and
    transparency. And in the end, a deal is not a law and deals can
    be undone, so I urge Congress to codify any deal.
        Because even if every national security issue with TikTok
    were resolved, the battle on copyright enforcement, on data
    privacy, and algorithm manipulation, these all continue. And as
    Congress considers these issues, I hope that you will consult
    us creators. I definitely don't want foreign powers
    manipulating my algorithm, but I also don't want domestic CEOs
    or even a for-profit board manipulating my algorithm. Creators
    want clearly defined rules which all platforms will play by,
    not just foreign ones.
        As for challenges in the free market, the recent tariffs
    have had a devastating impact on my business. I estimate that
    we have lost approximately $250,000 in sales as a direct result
    of the most recent trade war. I run a subscription tea club
    where every 3 months I send new teas to all the subscribers,
    but our May subscription box just sat in the port during the
    trade war, and we couldn't send it. We had to skip it all
    together. We also couldn't get a single restock shipment in
    from the entire time between January and August. This is all in
    addition to the increased taxes.
        Further, the chaotic nature of the policy changes has also
    been a challenge. I woke up one day to find the de-minimis
    clause had been closed completely, without exception. The
    Postal Service had to shut down all packages coming from China
    while they awaited further instructions. Then it was reversed,
    and then it was reinstated. And will it be reversed again? It
    is hard to tell.
        Developing a new product takes 6 to 9 months, and it is
    hard for me to know what U.S. trade policy will be in 6 to 9
    months. And beyond my personal stake, should it really be
    necessary for small business owners to need day-to-day updates
    on my new trade policy issues in order to run a small business?
        In the end, I sell tea. I am a tea guy. There are no
    national security implications and no jobs to be gained from a
    tariff. And yet the real jobs that I have created for myself
    and my five American employees have been staked as leverage and
    are being treated as less important than hypothetical jobs that
    might come from a hypothetical success of the tariff. I urge
    the Members to consider exempting small businesses from these
    tariffs. As small business, we simply do not have the resources
    to withstand these added costs and uncertainties.
        Finally, I want to thank the Members for their time and
    attention. I paid for my own ticket to come here and share my
    experiences in good faith. If any Members believe I can be of
    help in any way going forward, please contact me. I am here to
    try to solve these problems.
        A wise man once said, Do it for the 'gram. Today, I do not
    just for the 'gram, but for America and all creators.
        Thank you very much.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        Thank you all for that, and we will now move to the Member
    questions under the 5-minute rule.
        I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Luciano, you left your career at the Department of
    Defense to pursue content creation full time, as you said, in a
    leap that many would see as unconventional. But today, we are
    seeing more people make that jump. So the question is, what
    aspects of the content creator industry inspired you to make
    that transition? What opportunities motivated your decision?
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
    Honestly, what motivated me was to start a purpose-driven
    career. I loved working for the Department of Defense, but
    there was always a fire in me to help people. And I felt like
    me, myself, as a Christian, it gave me the reach to talk about
    my faith and talk about mental health in ways that were
    unconventional, especially with the start of TikTok.
        I realized very quickly, me being a systems guy, that the
    systems of this algorithm were built different and I wanted to
    use it for good. So I downloaded TikTok at my desk in 2019, and
    the rest is history. And I have been able to work with dream
    brands and start my own businesses, and I feel like I am
    walking in a path of purpose. So that is really the main driver
    behind it.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
        Ms. Brennan, the rise of name, image, and likeness--
    something we are all interested in--has changed the landscape
    for athletes and creators, opening new doors for entrepreneurs,
    and establishing a lasting market presence. So the question is,
    how have you worked with your clients to navigate this space
    when it comes to protecting and strengthening their personal
    brands?
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. You know,
    it is a really cool time to be involved with, you know, young
    athletes, because they are able to finally monetize their
    brands and build businesses beyond just what they do. They can
    explore passions and build out big programs. I mean, we are
    talking about equity programs and things like that, interests
    outside of their sports.
        I have worked with companies like IPSY Beauty Box, and that
    is really exciting, because you think athlete, okay, you think
    ball and stick, things like that, but you don't necessarily
    think about the offshoot businesses created because of that.
    And that has just been a honor and a blessing. We work with--
    our firm works with both NIL athletes and pros, and it has just
    been incredible to see these young women grow, learn more about
    business, and have real passions and goals outside of their
    sport as well, further extending their longevity, may I add, as
    well. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. This question will be to all of
    you in my remaining time, so we will start down here and move.
    Content creation has become a powerful driver in today's
    economy, expanding opportunities for entrepreneurship. So from
    each of your perspectives, how important are creators to the
    American economy and their communities?
        Ms. MORAN. Thank you for the question. I think as many of
    us have said, it creates jobs not only for ourselves, but I
    have my staff here with me, some of them, my family helps me
    out, and I do pay them when they create content for me. I think
    also, as Jesse has said, you know, they create sales. They are
    creating product lines and merch and beauty companies and
    service businesses and product-based businesses as well. So I
    think they are a driver of the economy because, as we are here,
    it is a small business, and at the end of the day, this country
    is built on small businesses.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. That is right. Thanks.
        Ms. BRENNAN. Seventy-seven percent of small businesses in
    the United States use social media for essential functions,
    such as sales, marketing, and customer service, according to
    BusinessDasher. That is significant, and I would argue that
    that is a dated number. Social media is not just a vehicle for
    sales; it is branding, it is voice, and it is connecting with
    the consumer.
        Small businesses have the opportunity to geo tag where they
    are and have this plethora of, you know, new views and new
    opportunities that come from that. I work with Azuna, the
    Buffalo-based company, and they are expanding like wildfire due
    to their digital strategy. It is impressive and it is
    incredible. And they are intertwined with the creator economy.
    It is a really exciting time, and I am looking forward to, you
    know, finding additional ways that these creators can expand.
    Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. We have got 50 seconds, so, Mr.
    Luciano, if you could come and then we will finish up----
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yes, sir. I will make it brief. I will just
    reference a video of mine where I adopted a dog at a local
    shelter in Stephenville, went viral, and we started an annual
    event called K-9s and Coffee, where we brought all small
    businesses together to help raise money to fund a new shelter
    because they are underfunded in the local community.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Good.
        Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Chairman. For my part, I just want
    to add more of a spiritual addition here. The enjoyment that I
    get out of life of being my own boss, going in my own
    direction, doing what I love to do, this is, I think, what
    really is making creators so eager to find a way to make a
    living so that they can live this kind of lifestyle. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Great. Well, I will yield my time back.
        I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of
    questions.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Appell, how do small businesses and content creators
    earn money and grow on social media?
        Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Congresswoman. There is a couple
    ways you can make money. One of them is you can make money off
    of views. If you get enough views, they will pay you for the
    views, different platforms will. People can do branding deals
    and merchandising deals; the other witnesses have talked about
    that. Another way is by creating your own brand and essentially
    going way beyond merch, so rather than just the T-shirt or a
    hat with my name on it, to be able to sell tea pots and
    equipment and specialized teas and stuff like that. So there
    are various ways that creators can make money.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. And you mentioned the tariff
    wars. President Trump's escalating trade wars have caused
    tariff rates to change often. What business uncertainty did
    that pose?
        Mr. APPELL. Thank you. It adds a lot of uncertainty. It is
    very difficult to price items when I don't know how much I am
    paying for them. During the--kind of the worst parts of the
    tariff war, I had already had boats with tea that had left the
    port, and I didn't know what I would be paying for them when
    they would arrive. That was an extreme version of this. But
    even beyond it, if a tax is raised, I can kind of adjust, but
    it is difficult to know how much extra I should adjust based
    off of future uncertainty given that we are working on 60- or
    90-day schedules until the next deal.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What knowledge do you need to navigate the
    tax tariffs?
        Mr. APPELL. Obviously, we need to spend a lot of time, a
    lot more than before, keeping our eyes on the news, keeping our
    eyes on tweets where a lot of times the news breaks earlier
    than other places. And also, I need to spend a lot more time
    communicating with my suppliers in China. They are ready to go.
    I am ready to go. They message me asking what is going on, and
    I feel like I owe them at least an explanation of my best
    understanding of what is going on with the U.S. trade policy.
    They are not going to get it anywhere else. So there is a lot
    of extra communication that comes into effect that is
    completely unrelated to the tax price.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. The President says that China will move
    TikTok to U.S. ownership, but he hasn't closed a deal. Instead,
    he paused the TikTok ban for 3 months. Do you feel whiplash
    from the constantly changing news?
        Mr. APPELL. Yeah. I mean, we don't know what is going to
    happen with the platform. As a creator and an artist, my
    reaction has been to put my head down and try to keep creating.
    But that could mean, if it is banned, I have just put more time
    and energy into a platform that is now destroyed.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Secretary Bessent says President Trump was
    willing to let TikTok go dark today. Does that scare you?
        Mr. APPELL. Yes.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Last year, Committee staff issued a report
    warning that AI-made content is unfairly crowding out human
    creators.
        Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter the report into the
    record.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. How does AI slop compete with your content?
        Mr. APPELL. Sure. So the most basic thing is when you are
    on an app, which is primarily recommendation based, they have a
    mix of things that come up on that feed, and a lot of that
    stuff can be determined to be AI slop, or at the very least is
    perhaps not the best, like, you know, real creator content that
    is out there. That gums up the air waves. It makes a very bad
    user experience for people who are trying to watch quality
    media. And for some industries, it is much worse than others.
        I am here today as a tea guy, but I will say as a standup
    comedian, go and check when you see a standup video, check to
    see if it is the actual standup comedian posting. I would say 9
    out of 10 times it is all stolen, and we work for a long time
    to get a couple jokes onto a TV show. To have that just stolen
    and repeated or to have the video on the top while somebody
    plays Subway Surfer on the bottom, you know, this is very
    discouraging to people who really want to put time and energy
    into making really good content.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Ms. Brennan, anything to add on AI risk for
    creators?
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. Yes. The
    content theft and dubbing over words is extremely dangerous. I
    represent a number of medical professionals, including a
    surgeon. At one point his content was taken and they dubbed
    over a completely different ad, were using it in whitelisting
    and targeting, and people were buying this product. Now, this
    was an overseas company selling it, so that adds additional
    complications. But that is dangerous. They know this doctor
    because he has millions of followers and he is a practicing
    surgeon. So, you know, that is a very, very big problem.
        I think AI can be helpful as well. When we are talking
    about content scraping from, you know--for children's sake, I
    think it can be a very, very helpful tool. But it has to have a
    human element to it, and it always has to be checked. Thank
    you.
        Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Stauber from the great State of
    Minnesota for 5 minutes.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Chair Williams and Ranking Member
    Velazquez, for holding the hearing today, and all the witnesses
    for your testimony.
        In northern Minnesota, small businesses are the backbone of
    our economy, and many of these entrepreneurs are blending
    online content with traditional operations to expand their
    customer base, build brand recognition, and reach markets well
    beyond Minnesota's Eighth Congressional District.
        The digital economy isn't just about influencers in Los
    Angeles. It is the real estate agent in Brainerd, Minnesota,
    looking to reach new buyers. It is the photographer in Duluth
    who is looking to share their portfolio capturing the beauty of
    northern Minnesota. These creators are building something real,
    and like every other small business, they face red tape that
    Washington is too slow to recognize.
        Mr. Luciano, you have turned your platform into a full-
    fledged business. Can you talk about the biggest challenges to
    formalizing your operation, particularly in accessing capital?
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. I mean, the biggest challenge as far as
    accessing capital is just education, the misrepresentation of
    what we do. So a lot of the times you are having to tell people
    that I am not just an influencer in it for clicks and likes,
    that I am actually like these small businesses in the squares.
    And just because you can't see it on a storefront doesn't mean
    we are not in our houses doing live streams and trying to build
    revenue.
        And luckily, I have partnered with CrowdSurf to explore the
    funding side of things, so I am taking investments in my
    business as well. So it has been really interesting to explore,
    and I am looking forward to actually having people in my back
    pocket to make them proud when I make Tratter House a
    flourishing company.
        Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Brennan, what risk do creators face when
    handling contracts and business deals on their own, and what
    protections do they need to avoid exploitation?
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. When
    creators start, it is not necessarily given that they have a
    business degree from Harvard. So there is a inherent lack of
    education in the creator economy, and they deserve to receive
    that education, whether that is through the platforms or
    something else. Education is fundamental to decision-making
    processes. You know, you have to be informed to be able to make
    the decision if you want to go forward or not and understand
    the implications that come to that.
        As far as management, oftentimes creators, especially when
    they are first starting, have not quite hit their revenue where
    it makes sense from a business perspective to pursue. So they
    are doing it on their own, and that can have longstanding
    implications to their business. Thank you.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you. I am glad you said you don't have
    to have a business degree from Harvard, because you are looking
    at two Lake Superior State University grads out of Sault Ste.
    Marie, Michigan.
        Ms. Moran, as not only a creator but someone who advises
    creators, are there specific legal or tax hurdles that
    disproportionately impact new digital entrepreneurs, especially
    those who are just starting to grow their digital business?
        Ms. MORAN. Thank you for the question. As Ms. Brennan said,
    I think a lot of times they think I need to have a manager to
    help me make a business and make more money, but they don't
    think of the legal implications of the contracts that they are
    signing or if there is a contract at all, especially when the
    tax season comes around. On Monday, the Q3 estimated taxes were
    due. I paid mine. I don't know if a lot of these creators know
    that they need to be doing that, and then come April, there is
    a really large tax bill that they are frightened by.
        And, you know, having advisers and people who can assist
    them in understanding what a business is--because as we said, a
    lot of them, they know they are small businesses. Even when
    they start out, once you start making money, you are a
    business, and I think we know that inherently. We don't
    necessarily think of, you know, the formalization of it,
    starting an LLC to protect their intellectual property, you
    know, having a lend-out company, who is the contracting party.
    A lot of them let their managers sign for them, which isn't
    necessarily bad, but having an understanding of what that
    means. Yeah, there is a lot of things to consider, honestly.
        Mr. STAUBER. With my last 50 seconds, I would like to take
    a quick poll of all of our entire panel. Within the last year,
    has your content creator business hired another small business
    to help your business in any way? Ms. Moran?
        Ms. MORAN. An accountant and employees.
        Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Brennan?
        Ms. BRENNAN. We have been established for a long time, so
    we do have parties we work with. We continue to expand our
    creator roster, which expands our business. Thank you.
        Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Luciano?
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yes. And I am proud to shout out my tax team,
    Decipher Financials.
        Mr. STAUBER. Perfect.
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, because they have helped--they
    understand me as a creator to get my taxes right.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you.
        Mr. Appell?
        Mr. APPELL. Yes. We have been working with Rare Flower
    Media in Los Angeles for additional editing help and social
    media posting.
        Mr. STAUBER. Perfect. Good shout-out to those folks.
        Mr. APPELL. Represent.
        Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, all. I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of
    Michigan for 5 minutes.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
        And thank you so much to our incredible, young
    entrepreneurs for being here today. We recognize the work that
    you do is a part of generating not only important content but
    drawing others to incredible products that are already in the
    market. We know increasingly businesses rely on content
    creators to help elevate their products in the absence of a
    traditional advertising market space. You all can help get this
    content out to where it needs to be.
        As the mom of two pre-teen and teen boys, who are
    constantly telling me all about the latest trends that they see
    online, I can tell you, I know firsthand about the importance
    of your work.
        Ms. Appell [sic], I want to thank you for joining us here
    today and giving us an idea of what it is like to be a content
    creator in an ever-changing economic and social landscape. As
    social media continues to evolve with technology, I am curious
    about your thoughts on the use of Generative AI in content
    creation. We know Gen AI can be used to augment a wide variety
    of online content. Have you used or considered using Gen AI for
    your business, and are you concerned about the potential for
    Gen AI to pose unfair competition for human creators?
        Ms. MORAN. Are you speaking to me or to Ms. Brennan?
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. To you.
        Ms. MORAN. Me, okay.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah.
        Ms. MORAN. I just wanted to double-check. I have actually
    considered using AI in my business. I think sometimes there is
    a lot of concern with the open-source/close-source situation in
    a legal capacity. Actually, one of my associates was telling me
    about a new AI legal tool, so I have some research to do when I
    get back to my hotel room.
        But I think--yeah, I mean, I am not going to say I don't
    use ChatGPT or Claude. I do prefer Claude sometimes. I think it
    is just educating creators on not putting a full contract with
    personally identifying information into ChatGPT--no names, no
    addresses, company names, things like that.
        For creators using AI, I think making sure they understand
    where they are getting their information from and always
    checking sources when they get an output, making sure that the
    information that ChatGPT or whatever AI tool they are using is,
    you know, it is accurate and correct information. There is
    history of it making up case law or stories and facts.
        I think also for creators, I get clients asking me all the
    time, when I create content for my clients as a social media
    manager, can I use a Pinterest image in a graphic that I make?
    You know, they want to understand the licensing. I think
    understanding, most of us, when we sign up for a new account,
    we check, yes, we read the terms of service. None of us
    actually read the terms and conditions of anything, because
    they are really long, but I think making sure you understand
    what you are agreeing to.
        When CapCut changed the terms a couple months ago, you
    know, I created a video explaining what these terms of service
    changes are and what they mean for you as creators. And I think
    a lot of people are really upset by them, but no one has
    stopped using CapCut. So I think making sure you know what you
    are using.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Do you think--I want to stick on this
    question line just a second, because it is such a new and
    emerging technology. And I--you know, I agree with the gist of
    what you were saying, which is it can be such a helpful and
    important tool for content creators, but there is a lot of
    parameters and rules of the road people need to understand.
        Do you think content creators and young people in
    particular are getting the education they need around how best
    to use these tools, whether in school or, you know, is that
    potentially a lane for, you know, the SBA?
        Ms. MORAN. I think both. I think there is room for
    education from fellow creators. I think knowledge creators are
    a really growing community of creators. Professionals
    ourselves, we are content creators. That is how we market our
    services to other creators. I think having the SBA provide
    guidance, you know, resources, you know, having a database of
    experts to go to, not just lawyers and accountants but also,
    you know, an AI expert, someone explaining what these terms
    mean.
        But I think there is also--the issue is a lot of
    misinformation. There is, myself included, multiple creators,
    every single time a new status update changes or something, we
    are sharing what this actually means in a video, but then
    someone is discrediting us because they don't want that to be
    true.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah.
        Ms. MORAN. And I think, again, flagging ``is this correct
    information?'' is important.
        Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Thank you. My time is expiring here,
    but really, really appreciate your comments. Thank you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ranking
    Member Velazquez, for this important hearing.
        Today's hearing is about more than social media. It is
    about recognizing that digital creators are America's next
    generation of small business owners. Whether it is a farm
    family sharing their story on YouTube--we have several of those
    in my district, Missouri--a veteran teaching lessons on
    Instagram, or young entrepreneurs selling products online,
    creators are turning influence into real businesses that drive
    jobs and growth, some 1.5 million content creators in America.
    Social commerce projected to reach $2 trillion by 2026.
        But like many small businesses, they are running into
    barriers, from confusing tax rules to trouble accessing
    capital, simply because their income looks different on paper.
    Our job on this Committee is to make sure that Washington does
    not hold back innovation. Supporting creators is not about
    promoting trends. It is about empowering small business owners,
    like yourselves, who are driving economic growth in the digital
    age.
        My mom is 84 years old. She is in assisted living down in
    Houston, Texas, area, and we spend a lot of time on the phone
    now talking about her memories as a child. She talks a lot
    about the family sitting around listening and watching the
    radio, before there was television, and then her dad going to
    the town square to the radio store where they had just put a
    television in the window, and they would stand around and watch
    a test pattern.
        We have gone a remarkable way in the last 80 years in
    America. From the Founding Fathers, the money was in
    independent printing presses, then it transitioned to
    newspapers, then the money followed radio when it was invented,
    and then television and then cable, and now social media. And I
    look forward to telling my granddaughter, who is only 9 months
    old--her name is Naomi--about when social media came on to the
    scene and content creators and the difference that it made in
    our society and in our economy.
        So I applaud what you are doing. And I think our job here
    is to try to find ways that we can help you be even more
    successful than you are. It is an inspiration to me and I think
    the Chair and the Ranking Member and others on this Committee
    just the spirit of entrepreneurism that you guys have captured,
    that you have reached beyond the boundaries that some have been
    standing in your way to find a way to do business online, and
    seeking out these guardrails for protecting your business, to
    make more money, and to make sure that we stay in these lanes,
    especially with the advent of AI.
        So I just want to know, Ms. Brennan, how can we--there is a
    lot of generalities out there, but what do we need to be look--
    we probably should have looked 10 years ago at this, but what
    can we do now to help you and the industry be even more
    successful for the economy of America and main street?
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you for that question. And I think it
    comes back to education. I think, you know, tax breaks are
    always helpful for new businesses that are starting and coming
    up, specifically creator-led businesses. If we are identifying
    these individuals--and they are--as the next generation of
    entrepreneurs, they deserve the same protections and education
    on how to grow. I think that is a really dynamic way.
        And then looking at it from perhaps the NIL standpoint,
    where there is a lot of marketing deals. And I am going to
    speak to marketing deals. I am not going to speak to the actual
    contracts with the universities. Right now, it is not a
    national registration for agents. Right now, it is segmented by
    the States and it varies, and it becomes costly for small
    businesses. For the big guys, it is no problem, but you start
    adding up those bills and start swiping those credit cards and
    it adds up. These athletes deserve to be protected. However,
    you know, let's kind of avoid the barriers to entry that aren't
    necessary. Thank you.
        Mr. ALFORD. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Luciano, appreciate your work. I have seen a little bit
    online. What drives you to do this? You said you wanted to give
    something back, you wanted to make a difference. Expound on
    that just a little bit.
        Mr. LUCIANO. For me, I refer to the younger you principle.
    When I was 16 years old, I really struggled with my mental
    health. And I go around to FFA events across the country, and I
    speak to 16-year-olds on the daily. And to see them do what I
    want to do is amazing, but I also want to protect them and
    their mental health, and as these ladies were saying, the
    misinformation that can be harmful. So I just want to put a
    good message out into the world and protect these kids as they
    take in this media.
        Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you. There is a lot of hate out
    there right now, especially after last week. And I applaud what
    you are doing. Thank you. God bless you.
        And I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New
    Jersey for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much, Chairman, and thank you to
    the Ranking Member. Thank you so much for holding this hearing.
    I want to thank our witnesses today for joining us.
        Online content creators are not just influencers. They are
    entrepreneurs, job creators, innovators, and small business
    owners. They deal with money management, taxes, compliance, and
    marketing engagement like any other business. But they face
    unique challenges, as we have heard already from some of our
    testimony today, unique challenges when their primary
    storefronts are intangible online platforms.
        Content creation can often make or break a small business.
    Congress must identify where federal policy can help creators
    operate on a level playing field, protect their business
    revenues, and compete fairly in a consolidated and often crazy
    online marketplace.
        With that, we heard some testimony from Mr. Appell about
    how the tariffs have, you know, definitely disrupted your
    regular, normal process. And I am sorry to hear that,
    especially when you talk about $250,000, that is a lot of
    money, and even the unsettledness of where your business is
    going and how to plan for that.
        I would love to hear more from some of the other panel
    members. Based on your experience, how have the tariffs
    impacted content creators' ability to maintain product quality,
    affordable pricing, and customer satisfaction? We can start at
    the end.
        Ms. MORAN. For me, I am in the service-based business and
    my clients as well, digital content creation, but I think
    access to personal capital. You know, income isn't coming in.
    Money isn't going as far as it used to, so not having the
    ability to hire service professionals to guide them.
        I heard from a lot of my creator friends. They, you know,
    filed their own taxes this year instead of hiring an accountant
    last year. Hopefully things went well. We won't know until, you
    know, refunds come through or things like that.
        Yeah, I just don't think money is going as far as it used
    to, and so people are skipping steps where they can--to cut
    costs. And I understand that, but it is also worrisome. You
    know, people don't want to hire a lawyer to read their
    contracts, but these are really bad contracts. Sometimes they
    are very one-sided. They are very favorable to the marketing
    agencies or to the brands directly if they are the contracting
    party.
        So I think, you know, skipping steps is dangerous.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you.
        Ms. Brennan?
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. With the tariffs came uncertainty,
    and I think it is going to go back to education and how to
    mitigate risk as a business owner because, again, that is what
    these people are, they are business owners.
        How do you mitigate risk? How do you have multiple streams
    of income coming from everywhere? And again, I will hit on it
    again. It is about the creators I don't manage, the creators
    that maybe don't have a manager in their corner with, you know,
    tons of different services.
        As far as the tariffs and small businesses, I did hear from
    one small business that due to the, I guess you could say the
    exit of two very, very big ad buyers, it actually led to less
    competition as far as ad buying and ad auction, giving them a
    really interesting opportunity to grow. And if we can build off
    of that in a very unique way, right, hiring more influencers
    and local creators and things like that, I think that is a home
    run.
        So, yes, tariffs definitely cause uncertainty, and I can't
    say what the impact will be year-to-date, but, again, it is
    going to go back to education and mitigating risk as a business
    owner. Thank you.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much.
        Mr. Luciano?
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. For me, I have built my brand, and we go
    around the country. We set up booths from FFA events to the
    NFR, and just over the years, we have had to hike up prices. So
    we see people come by the booth and go, $40 for a cap? No way.
    When I used to be able to sell it for $29 4 years ago, right.
        So it has just been me seeing the prices hike up, and then,
    in turn, that affects my top line, and then I am not able to,
    you know, reinvest as much as I can back into that revenue
    stream.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Yeah. Thank you so much for that.
        Anything you want to add to that? I know you already spent
    some time talking about it, but anything else you might want to
    add, I would love to hear.
        Mr. APPELL. Sure. I would just like to add, I mean, I came
    to tea through being a full-bred scholar in China and drinking
    tea and meeting tea farmers there and speak Chinese. For me,
    this is not a matter of, oh, if the market is cheaper to sell
    Japanese tea or Indian tea, oh, we will just switch it. On
    paper, you might be able to do that, and maybe to the country
    it will look on paper like there is a similarity between the
    business.
        For me, that would be not only just a total upheaval of my
    life, and I would have to learn Japanese, but it is also--
    again, spiritually, the best part of being a creator is I get
    to chase what I really care about, and I get to do it with the
    people that I love, and I get to do it with the people who have
    been good to me, and I can be good to them, and sometimes they
    are in China.
        Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much for sharing, to each of you.
        With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        And now I recognize Mr. LaLota from the great State of New
    York for 5 minutes.
        Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your
    leadership on this issue.
        Ms. Moran, how are you doing?
        Ms. MORAN. Good. How are you?
        Mr. LALOTA. Good. My memo here says that the internet
    content creation industry is a $250 billion industry as of
    2023, but it is expected to grow to $500 billion by 2030.
        And you are an attorney who represents a lot of internet
    content creators?
        Ms. MORAN. Yes. Most of my clients are talent directly or
    talent management agencies, like Ms. Brennan here. So there are
    hundreds of creators and hundreds of talent managers in this
    country, and there is a lot of money circulating.
        Mr. LALOTA. Yeah. And about what kind of content do they
    often create?
        Ms. MORAN. Anything from fashion and beauty to educational
    content, mental health, sports, anything. It could be anything
    you want.
        Mr. LALOTA. Cool. And on what platforms do they usually
    place this content?
        Ms. MORAN. I think the majority of creators use your main
    three: TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. But there is Twitch,
    streamers, gamers. There is--I can't think of any right now. I
    am blanking. Lemon 8, which is owned by ByleDance as well.
    Facebook is still a primary source for some companies. Yeah,
    there is--Pinterest is another one. There are several.
        Mr. LALOTA. This hearing is enlightening for me because I
    didn't realize how big this industry is, and you four are able
    to tell us exactly how big it is and where it reaches and
    whatnot.
        I take it that because you are an attorney, you probably
    don't work for free?
        Ms. MORAN. No, I do not.
        Mr. LALOTA. Good. Good for you. You should charge.
        Nevertheless, so the clients that pay you, they are
    profitable too. They are paying taxes. They are feeding their
    families. They are contributing to society?
        Ms. MORAN. I would hope so.
        Mr. LALOTA. Good.
        Ms. MORAN. I always advise them to do so, yes.
        Mr. LALOTA. Smart. That wasn't a trick question, I promise.
        Ms. Brennan, I really want to spend my time talking to you
    about the New York Yankees, the greatest sports franchise we
    have ever seen on the face of this Earth. I am going to try to
    stay a little focused here and not spend my time on that.
        But knowing how economically viable the industry that you
    are involved in is, when a entrepreneur's content gets stolen
    or copied, how damaging could it be to that person's ability to
    operate as a small business?
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. It can be
    extraordinarily damaging. I gave the example of a surgeon who
    had his content stolen, and it was used by a offshore brand to
    sell a supplement that wasn't even third-party tested. He got
    DMs from people who follow him saying they bought it because
    they saw he endorsed it. And that is scary.
        So that is a very, very, very big issue, because that is
    not just an issue of, you know, credibility; that is an issue
    that maybe has safety implications. So those situations should
    be, you know, thought of in high regard. Thank you.
        Mr. LALOTA. Great. So when an individual's work product
    gets stolen, it is damaging to the individual. What about the
    rest of the industry? Does it have a chilling effect on the
    rest of the industry? Do people then want to put less resources
    into creating the content because they anticipate, perhaps
    reasonably, that their stuff is going to be stolen?
        Ms. BRENNAN. That is a great question, and I don't
    necessarily have a full answer for you. What I can say is, from
    a consumer standpoint, if we are seeing content that is stolen
    with AI dubbing, and there are no disclosures, that is a big
    issue. So from a consumer standpoint, when we go to purchase
    products, what is it doing to that consumer's psyche? Is it
    real? Is it fake?
        I believe right now as far as the disclosures go, they are
    optional for the parties using it, but as a consumer, I would
    like to know if something is heavily edited using AI. I would
    like to know if it is a CGI influencer who are taking brand
    deals that are valued at a lot of money when they are not real
    people or groups of people, and that needs to be clearly
    disclosed.
        Mr. LALOTA. Great.
        Mr. Appell, I am going to go to you now.
        Mr. APPELL. Yes.
        Mr. LALOTA. What are you drinking over there?
        Mr. APPELL. I am drinking ancient tree red tea with roses
    in it from Yunnan, China. It is great.
        Mr. LALOTA. You are welcome. I know you did the----
        Mr. APPELL. I can make you some if you would like.
        Mr. LALOTA. I wanted to make sure we got the YouTube
    version of it.
        Mr. APPELL. Thank you.
        Mr. LALOTA. Tell me, piggybacking on what I just said
    before, how does a lack of consistent right of publicity
    protection leave small creators especially vulnerable?
        Mr. APPELL. Yes. So my business is called Jesse's Teahouse.
    So one of the reasons I did that is because it is very hard to
    fake Jesse. I make the tea myself. I show the farmers we work
    with. All of these things really are antipiracy ways of going
    about business.
        You know, I learned definitely from my career as a comedian
    online the content will be stolen. The question is not whether
    it will be stolen. The question is when they steal the content,
    does it help your business or hurt you?
        If people decide to steal Jesse's Teahouse videos with
    Jesse hosting, they are really kind of advertising for me. But
    this was a long workaround that it took really a decade of
    dealing with a very leaky rights protection system for creators
    that led me to figure out this very specific way I could try to
    protect my rights without any additional regulation.
        Mr. LALOTA. Great. Thanks.
        Mr. APPELL. Thank you.
        Mr. LALOTA. Mr. Luciano, great that you are here. My time
    has expired. Thanks for being here, sir.
        I yield.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Dr. Conaway from the great State of New
    Jersey for 5 minutes.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And thank you, Messrs. and Mrs. for--not Mrs. Mrs.? Anyway,
    thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for presenting yourself here
    today and giving very important information at least to yours
    truly who is not involved very much with social media at all,
    believe it or not. But it has not passed me by exactly, but I
    don't spend a lot of time there because I don't have that much
    time, but I am glad you are doing very well at the work that
    you are doing, and clearly it is work that you love doing, and
    it is always nice to hear from people who are enjoying their
    work.
        One of the things that struck me as I listened to your
    comments as small business persons and understanding the
    environment in which we all operate today, how has Big Tech, if
    you will, how does that impact you? And do you have some
    suggestions about how we defend your space and your purchase in
    this economy?
        Anybody can take it. That is a round-robin question.
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I will go for it. I like to specifically
    speak to like Meta and how these certain platforms offer
    verification processes through our actual identity and through
    our government paperwork, but when--specifically me, there are
    thousands of fake accounts of me, but I am paying this platform
    with my government ID to say that I am who I say I am. So when
    I report an account, why isn't it not taken down immediately?
        So that is one of the big things where I was like, you
    know, people are DM-ing me about crazy things that have
    happened from a fake profile of mine.
        Mr. CONAWAY. So more focus by the Justice Department, I
    presume, on this kind of trade violation, I suppose.
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. Yeah, it is just very easy to steal
    someone's content.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Ms. Moran?
        Ms. MORAN. Yes. To piggyback off that, I think also there
    is a lot of disincentivizing of creators disclosing with the
    FTC guidelines that they are monetizing their content because
    the platforms don't push it out. So not only is there fake
    accounts being made and harassment and bullying, but also
    creators don't want to put these disclosures on, that they are
    contractually obligated to do so and legally obligated to do
    so, because then the content won't get pushed out and then the
    views won't be as high and then they might not hit the targets
    that the contract set to get bonus money.
        So Big Tech disincentivizing disclosures is a big issue. I
    think also these big companies, not just tech but any big
    company, there is this trend of monopolization. So these
    contracts are very one-sided. They are very unfavorable to the
    small businesses, to the creators.
        And, again, there is not a lot of education on what these
    contract terms mean. Also, arbitration. A lot of these
    contracts have arbitration clauses in it instead of a mediation
    clause or suing in small claims court.
        These contracts are not that big. Some of them are. Some of
    them can be very lucrative, but a lot of times being lucrative
    is at volume. But these deals are, for the most part, 2 to 5 to
    10 to $20,000, and arbitration is just not feasible at that
    point.
        Mr. CONAWAY. That is another issue.
        Ms. Brennan, just quickly, if you can, because I do want to
    get to another question.
        Ms. BRENNAN. So I like the saying, if you can't play nice,
    you can't play at all. So these companies that are stealing
    this data, and perhaps they didn't know, right. Let's assume
    the positive and they didn't know. Have some sort of step and
    education where they have to complete it. Similarly to, you
    know, if you commit a crime, you have to go through some sort
    of program, right. And if you can't play nice, you can't play
    at all because this is a serious issue.
        Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you.
        Mr. Appell?
        Mr. APPELL. Yes. And just really briefly on that. I think
    the algorithm and the lack of control about what legally you
    can do with a recommendation algorithm is something that can be
    looked at.
        I have 1.5 million followers, but there is no law that says
    they have to show my video to anyone. I have worked on it for
    years to build the accounts, but will they show it? Maybe not.
        Additionally, if, you know, any given tech company realizes
    that they make marginally more money showing coffee videos
    rather than tea videos, they could just only show coffee videos
    and never show tea videos, and I would never know. I have to
    work endlessly hoping they show it.
        Mr. CONAWAY. And just for the record, you know, hate speech
    has been mentioned. It is certainly something that is top of
    mind. Many persons in minority communities face discrimination
    online. If they say something that is unpopular or perceived as
    being unpopular, the Big Tech companies, those who are sort of
    controlling access to the world digitally, can censor them,
    quite frankly.
        Have any of you experienced hate speech or censorship in
    the things that you have been doing?
        And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the
    witnesses for being here.
        You know, this is an exciting topic for me. You are coming
    out of technology. This has been something that we have been
    talking about since my formative years.
        And my last job before I was in Congress, I was a regulator
    of the insurance and securities industries in the State of
    Montana, and artificial intelligence, machine learning, big
    data all became a big part of the conversation on how we make
    use of this as a tool and understand really where, you know,
    reasonable sideboards are so you inspire and, you know, invoke
    innovation in the United States of America. Make sure that we
    continue to be innovators there but understanding what the
    implications are, and some of these conversations have just
    been really, really intriguing.
        You know, a couple of top line comments. Artificial
    intelligence is really set to transform the whole scope of the
    American economy, you know, including revolutionizing how
    business owners invest in their ventures, employ workers,
    manufacture products, and, you know, as I mentioned before,
    even, you know, how it rates insurance.
        There are so many opportunities there, and a lot of folks
    are, you know, excited about the opportunity but concerned
    about what it means, because a lot of folks just want to be
    able to look into that black box. And, you know, I always say,
    well, once that black box has an N equals infinity matrix, you
    know, network in there, how does any human understand it. So
    there are interesting problems before us.
        Ms. Moran, in your testimony, you discussed the growing
    role that artificial intelligence will play in the digital
    creator economy. Notably, you highlight some AI-associated
    challenges that online content creators face in forwarding
    their brands, including, you know, deepfakes and account
    hacking.
        So with computing and machine learning capabilities set to
    become more and more powerful in the coming years, how do you
    think online small businesses and creators are positioned to
    deal with these AI-associated challenges going forward?
        Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I think as we have all said,
    education, and I think disclosure, disclosing that AI is being
    used and in what capacity it is being used, to the extent.
    Having a percentage of how much AI can be used or how much is
    inputted versus output. I mean, I don't know how feasible that
    really is, but I think education and disclosure are primary
    things with deepfakes.
        I know there are countries, in Europe primarily passing
    copyright laws. Denmark passed a law that you could copyright
    your face, basically, so they can't make deepfakes. I don't
    know if that is feasible here but some sort of regulations.
        Mr. DOWNING. So I am glad you brought up, you know, foreign
    countries. So from your experience, what foreign countries and
    actors are the most culpable for promulgating malicious
    activities like hacking and spam accounts and, you know, target
    online creators?
        Ms. MORAN. I think there is a big--I don't know if I
    necessarily want to call out specific countries, but there are
    countries that are associated with bot followers. So a lot of
    times companies or people will maliciously purchase followers
    for an account that they want to blow up to then try to steal
    the account, or, you know, I will offer you $500,000 to buy
    your account from you, and, you know, you have to--you should
    sell it because now it is no longer yours.
        Mr. DOWNING. Right.
        Ms. MORAN. And so that is a business model that also needs
    regulation, but a lot of times these followers are coming from
    who knows where.
        Mr. DOWNING. Right. So despite these challenges, the
    growing power of AI also has incredible potential to assist
    entrepreneurs as well, including those based online. So what do
    you think could be some positive developments that could come
    from AI that could help digital creators generate better
    content to better compete in the online economy?
        Ms. MORAN. Efficiency. AI is a great tool for efficiency.
    You know, I have friends who have created tech apps with closed
    source AI tools where I can upload a video. It can watch my
    video and create a script for me----
        Mr. DOWNING. Thank you.
        Ms. MORAN.--instead of me sitting and scripting out the
    video itself. So things like that are really helpful.
        Mr. DOWNING. Thank you.
        Ms. Brennan, from your experience managing your clients'
    online presence, what has your experience been with AI? How has
    it factored into your firm's business strategy and operations?
        Ms. BRENNAN. I think that is a great and multifaceted
    answer. As far as the pros, it can, you know, detect, you know,
    potentially harmful content as far as the user experience, so
    that is great. We want everyone safe online, including our
    children. And then as far as efficiency and accessibility, that
    is quite helpful if you are a small business and you don't have
    the resources to, you know, produce more jobs at the time.
        As far as cons, the fake AI influencers, that is scary, and
    the content theft and dubbing over people's name, image, and
    likeness and creating false ads with faulty supplements--and I
    can go on and on with that--that needs to be regulated. There
    has got to be clear disclosures, and when there is a concern,
    it has to be escalated and escalated quickly to remedy that.
        Mr. DOWNING. Right. Unfortunately, I have run out of time,
    but I really appreciate you all participating.
        And I yield my time, Mr. Chair.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. [Presiding.] Thank you.
        I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from New Hampshire for 5
    minutes.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. Madam Chair, thank you.
        To our witnesses, I just want to thank you so much for
    being here today. I know you are not doing it for the 'gram.
    And I have a confession to make. Herb and I had to Google what
    that meant, but now we know, and we know you are not doing it
    for the 'gram. You are doing it for America.
        And so I am farming your aura, another phrase I didn't know
    about until today, so thank you for that. Because you are
    talking about freedom; you are talking about fairness; you are
    talking about public safety in the most important arena of the
    present and the future, and that is the digital world.
        Much of what has been discussed today really cuts across
    small businesses across our country. You know, you have talked
    about the high cost of doing business both because of
    regulatory red tape, and I am making lists and taking names.
    You show me red tape. Let's work together to cut it. That is
    why I am on this Committee.
        You have talked about the high cost of lawless trade wars,
    and I want to thank you, Mr. Appell--am I pronouncing that
    right?
        Mr. APPELL. Appell.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. Appell. Jesse.
        Mr. APPELL. Yes.
        Ms. GOODLANDER.--for quantifying just part of the invoice
    that you are paying as a result of these trade wars.
        We have got a bill, the Small Business Liberation Act, that
    would protect small businesses from these lawless trade wars,
    and, look, this is basic fairness. You shouldn't be paying this
    kind of tax, and it is especially ironic for someone who has
    got a tea shop, because we all know how this great experiment,
    the United States of America, began.
        But I want to say, you know, the creator economy, when we
    talk about the creator economy, Ms. Brennan, you mentioned 77
    percent of small businesses use social media. I agree with you.
    That is, I would think, a real undercount, and I see it every
    day on this job.
        You know, I was in a great town in my district, Littleton,
    New Hampshire. I met a fellow millennial who owns a small
    business called Tailswag, and it is an amazing--it is right on
    main street in Littleton, New Hampshire. It is a pet boutique,
    a treat bar. I had never been to a small business quite like
    this.
        You know, she has used social media so effectively, and I
    will give you all a pitch. Dachtoberfest is happening.
    Littleton, New Hampshire, October 4, 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. She
    advertised this on the 'gram, among other social media
    platforms. And as a direct result of this one post, we saw a
    booming business in Littleton, New Hampshire.
        It is a win, win, win. Everyone wins when these platforms
    can be used to the effect that we all want to see them being
    used for.
        Now, I came to Congress having worked in the Department of
    Justice in the Antitrust Division. So I spent a lot of time
    thinking about the harms and abuses of power we see from Big
    Tech monopolists. And, you know, you have touched on so many
    today, but I really want to invite you--and I am going to be
    sending you, I hope it is okay, questions for the record,
    because there is so much in your testimony that I think we
    could really benefit from in this Committee.
        But I wanted to just put the question out. You know, part
    of the challenge with Big Tech monopolists is they are really
    these days getting to make big decisions about who gets heard
    and who gets paid and how much. And I just--I want to throw
    this out to the panel.
        And I am sorry I have taken up so much time in my questions
    because I am just so grateful that you are here, and I hope we
    can stay in close touch.
        When you think about--you mentioned there are many methods
    of being paid, but when you think about how Big Tech
    gatekeepers, Big Tech monopolists are actually controlling the
    purse strings and controlling the microphones, what would you
    point us to as your top priorities for barriers that you are
    facing that you really believe Congress has got to tackle?
        Ms. MORAN. I can start.
        I think payment terms. I think, a lot of these payment
    terms are net 60 and net 90, meaning creators aren't being paid
    for 2 or 3 months after the work, if they even get paid at all.
    I think having thresholds. Maybe if it is under a certain
    amount, it needs to be net 30.
        I don't know. There are so many different ways that this
    could be framed, but having some sort of regulation on payment
    terms would be really, really helpful. And I think also having,
    you know, in our termination clauses that if the creator
    terminates for whatever reason--life happens, things happen--
    force majeure clauses and pro rata shares in our termination
    clauses are really helpful. I think also indemnification
    clauses, limitations of liability, caps on damages. Creators
    are small businesses. We can't go up against a Big Tech company
    and have unlimited damages. We don't have that money.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. And you don't have an army of lawyers to do
    it.
        Ms. MORAN. No.
        Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, my time has passed, but I want to
    thank you all and really look forward to working with you.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The gentlelady yields back.
        I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the Northern Mariana
    Islands, the great Northern Mariana Islands for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. KING-HINDS. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair and
    Ranking Member, and Hafa Adai.
        So I credit my election to my relationship with social
    media influencers. I come from the island of Tinian, and the
    island of Tinian has one of the smallest population in the
    Northern Mariana Islands. And no one from my island ever wins a
    commonwealth-wide election. I am the first, and I credit that,
    basically, to the work that was put in by Palm Treo. I have to
    give them a shout-out because they totally helped out.
        And I also had the privilege of hosting the first ever Palm
    Treo social media awards. And this is where I kind of learned,
    you know, the value and the importance and all the work that
    goes behind content creating.
        And as I sit here and as I listen to what Ms. Goodlander
    was talking about, right, you know, just the intricacies of
    these conversations, and I think about the social media
    influencers back home who are struggling to go, you know, from
    having an online presence into actually developing a
    sustainable business, and as I tie in Mr. Luciano's statement
    about, you know, just the challenge in terms of classification,
    right, and what all this means with regards to regulations, IRS
    taxes, and so that is the kind of conversation that I want to
    have with all of you today.
        And I want to hear more from you, Ms. Moran, because you
    are an attorney and, obviously, you have helped a lot of these
    people get through some of these legal hurdles. And so if you
    could just start off by kind of sharing, you know, what are
    those--what are a couple of the top barriers that these entries
    to the market are--that Congress can assist with in terms of
    regulations?
        Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I think to Nick's point earlier about
    not knowing how to classify yourself on a cap table, I think a
    lot of times the mindset of an entrepreneur as a small
    business, once you start making money, you are now a business.
    So I think having them have guidance from the SBA and other
    organizations. You know, access to lawyers who can help them
    draft an operating agreement or file for their LLC. Knowing
    what address to put on an LLC, because some States don't let
    you put a P.O. box, but you don't want your address publicly
    out there because for mental health and safety concerns.
        So I think having guidance on when and how to formalize a
    business could be really helpful.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. Okay. How about we just move down the line
    and get your thoughts on the matter.
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. Yeah, I would agree with Ms. Moran.
    Education is a huge component to this. You know, how do you
    classify yourself? It is for the people who don't have access
    to all the things a management firm may bring--attorneys,
    accountants, things like that. So really education on what they
    can do to build their business would be crucial. Thank you.
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I will touch on what Kayla said, but
    just classifying yourself. Like, there were no resources for me
    to understand in order to go from once I am making money to
    this threshold to now I am making this amount of money, okay, I
    need to be classified as an S corp and pay myself a proper
    payroll, right. So I had to learn all of that myself.
        And then I have had to seek out resources to understand
    what I am actually trying to do. So that is why my whole
    accountant team, their entire team just works with creators
    alone, because I have actually had the other--my other
    accountant team, they didn't know how to classify me, and I had
    to go re-amend all my taxes from the past couple of years.
        So those are some challenges I face as a creator.
        Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Congresswoman. I agree with
    everything that they have said as well. I would add an extra
    loop, an extra element to this.
        I sell a physical item, and so I sell my tea in every State
    in the country. You know, even in like, you know, big cities,
    you would be surprised how hard it is to find really good
    Chinese tea. So that means that I have to pay State sales tax
    in every State in the country. That means a separate
    registration in every State income tax board.
        I hire a third-party company to do this, which is just a
    total loss to the business in terms of the processing fee that
    I need to pay them to be able to register 50 different times.
    Some are quarterly. Some are every year. Some are, you know,
    biannually.
        There are different definitions of what makes a nexus of
    sales that requires me to register. Every State has different
    amounts that you have to pass before you have to register. It
    is a very confusing system, and I am not sure federally what
    can be done about that, but as a small business who is trying
    to pay their State sales taxes, it is incredibly difficult. And
    if I didn't, basically, just pay somebody else to solve that
    problem for me, there is absolutely no way I could do it.
        Ms. KING-HINDS. All right. I am about to run out of time,
    but before I do, I want to give a shout-out to Zori Talks and
    Eddie C who are amazing content creators from the CNMI.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now ask Mr. Olszewski from the great State of Maryland
    for 5 minutes.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Chairman Williams. I
    want to thank our Ranking Member Velazquez, and to our
    witnesses, for your time today. It is truly exciting to be with
    you to discuss the social media landscape that has led many
    Americans to entrepreneurial adventures beyond their wildest
    dreams.
        Back home in Maryland's Second, local social media accounts
    like Marianne Mehrer's Home Sweet Baltimore are helping to
    contribute to the success of businesses in our region. Marianne
    provides amazing real estate advice through her content while
    also shouting out some great small businesses that stimulate
    Maryland's economy. Douglas Clayton has a Charm City Food
    Adventures account that uplifts local restaurants and food
    festivals. And these are the constituents, like all of you, who
    are creating business opportunities for themselves while also
    boosting brick and mortar businesses and small businesses in
    our district. It is such a positive thing.
        But we know that as these industries arise, the federal
    government has to make sure that we are working harder to
    support and protect our constituents from the harms that can
    and do exist online. As the father of a young daughter who just
    started fourth grade this year, I am especially acutely aware
    of the dangers that our children are exposed to online in
    particular.
        In Maryland, our State police have launched the Internet
    Crimes Against Children Task Force, alongside 61 task forces
    across the nation. They have partnered with State, local, and
    federal law enforcement on a month-long initiative to combat
    online child exploitation. The task force has initiated 595
    investigations, resulting in 41 arrests and 17 child victims
    rescued from ongoing abuse.
        While it is horrific that resources even need to be used to
    combat these crimes, there is no excuse not to battle this
    epidemic head-on in a bipartisan way.
        So I look forward to advancing bipartisan legislation that
    works to protect everyone online, both from crimes as well as
    the hate speech which is so pervasive today. We know the web is
    a powerful tool that can connect Americans in positive ways,
    and that is needed now more than ever.
        So with that, I will ask a question of all the panelists,
    and I hope I can save time for one other issue for Ms. Moran.
    But I just want to ask everyone, what actions might you
    recommend Congress take that can both help us better protect
    children from being exposed to violence, harassment, hate
    speech, and more, while also ensuring that you can do your jobs
    and grow your businesses effectively? I think there is a
    balance to be struck, but we want to be doing both.
        So I just want to open it up for the panel.
        Mr. APPELL. I think from my perspective, I really like the
    idea of saying--you know, looking at the internet as a village,
    and if somebody breaks the law in the village once, do you let
    them create another account? Do you let them create another
    hundred accounts? Do you have some sort of thing that they have
    to go through where they recognize the problem that they had
    with the first account and with the first speech before they
    are able to go on and then continue to speak?
        I think different issues should be dealt with differently,
    but I like the idea of having the internet be full of people
    that are, you know, being righteous actors. And if there are
    people that are problematic actors, that they are just not
    allowed right back onto the internet immediately with no
    problem after they have been caught.
        Mr. LUCIANO. I would say for me it starts with, like, the
    parents at home, with really just filtering the amount of
    screen time that kids have because that can--down the line,
    especially because I am really big into mental health, that
    can, you know, carry down through generations. So just starting
    with the parents and really educating on what it means to limit
    screen time and--yeah.
        Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah, I would agree with Mr. Appell. Repeat
    offenders cannot be on those platforms. If there is an issue,
    whether it is dealing with a child or whether it is dealing
    with an adult getting harassed, and there is, you know, a
    process where it goes through discovery beyond just AI, because
    I know some of the platforms just look at AI and there is no
    human interaction, that needs to be dealt with, and it needs to
    be dealt with and addressed by another human being. It can't
    just be banned, here we go, we are done. Maybe some
    intervention further than that would be helpful. Thank you.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Ms. Moran, in addition to your answer on
    this, if you can also respond to--I know that you have called
    the TikTok ban and President Trump's repeated short-term delays
    an emotional roller coaster. In your 30 seconds, if you can
    both answer that question and elaborate on what you mean by
    that roller coaster.
        Ms. MORAN. Sure. I think the Coogan laws--you know, States
    like California, Utah, Illinois have passed Coogan laws for
    child performers having trust accounts. Parents have to put a
    percentage away that is in a trust for children that when they
    turn 18 they can access.
        We have seen this a lot with actors like Jennette McCurdy
    from iCarly. You know, when her mom passed away, she got access
    to her income and realized that it was all gone. Her parents
    took it. And she is not the only one.
        Children performers', family vlog channels are very popular
    on YouTube and TikTok, and these creators are being exploited
    by their own parents for money, and they are not getting to see
    any of that. So I think federalizing Coogan laws or
    incentivizing States to pass Coogan-type laws would be really,
    really helpful.
        And then with the TikTok ban, I think--I mean, Jesse and
    Nick have said it too, but it hurts not knowing, you know, can
    I post content today? Is anyone going to see it? You know, not
    knowing that TikTok got pushed back, I created a lot of content
    during the ban in December and January. I was abroad. I was in
    Europe, and I was waking up early to talk about it.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up.
        Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you for that.
        I thank the Chairman for his indulgence.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Next, I now recognize Mr. Jack from the
    great State of Georgia for 5 minutes.
        Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I
    want to commend you and the staff of this incredible Committee
    on convening this hearing. It is exciting. As a member of the
    generation of many of our panelists, it is exciting to see you
    all accomplishing incredible things.
        And I am curious. One of the questions I would love to
    start with is, as somebody who obviously follows, you know,
    content creators that are working to generate small business
    leads for people across my community, I am interested in
    talking about search engine optimization. I am interested in
    learning how you all navigate that.
        So we can go down the line, and we will start with Ms.
    Moran. I would love for you to explain to this Committee how
    you navigate the topic of SEO.
        Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I mean, I wouldn't be here if it
    wasn't for SEO. You know, Danielle found me through Instagram,
    and now Instagram is searchable. When you Google someone, you
    know, whatever was in the caption of your post or your video on
    Instagram now comes up on Google. That was recent as of like I
    think 2 weeks ago.
        So I think, you know, platforms are starting to understand
    that search engine optimization is not just for small
    businesses and marketing of products and service-based
    businesses but also creator content, because there is a lot of
    really great education, and there are a lot of really great
    businesses using social media because it is cost-effective. It
    is more affordable for businesses to use digital marketing than
    traditional multimillion dollar productions and commercials.
        Mr. JACK. Wonderful. Thank you.
        Please.
        Ms. BRENNAN. I think we are seeing the rise of blogging
    again, which is an interesting platform that kind of took a
    little bit of a break. And as there is more competition in SEO,
    it will become costlier. So going back to education and
    resources, as well as funding for these small businesses will
    help them compete in an ever-growing landscape.
        Mr. JACK. On what platforms are you seeing that expansion
    of blogging? Is it now that X has long-form posts, or are you
    seeing it in different--I mean, it used to be Tumblr, but I am
    curious what it is now.
        Ms. BRENNAN. That is a great question. So there is SEO on
    the platforms and then there is traditional blogs. So a lot of
    these creators have their own websites where they are SEO-ing
    various things. And Substack, yes. Thank you. Substack as well.
        Mr. JACK. Sure. Thank you.
        Please.
        Mr. LUCIANO. So me personally, as a creator, I rely more on
    SEO with optimizing my landing pages for where I am trying to
    drive traffic, but as far as online creation, I am really in
    the space of like audience retention. So I build my platforms
    as far as like strong hooks, ping points, et cetera, going down
    to the bare bones of marketing.
        So the SEO for me is literally just trying to optimize my
    pages of where I am driving traffic online. But organically, I
    want people to connect with me with strong hooks, ping points,
    resolutions, calls to actions, stuff like that.
        Mr. JACK. Helpful context.
        Please.
        Mr. APPELL. Yes. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
        I agree with Mr. Luciano. I feel like as a creator, if I do
    a really good job of making awesome content, making videos,
    sharing what I know and what I care about, that those people
    will fight through bad searches to find my website. But if I
    just have a mediocre--mediocre at everything, SEO will not save
    me.
        Now, that is kind of my mentality. I don't know if that is
    literally true, like, in the numbers, but I think that is a
    healthy mentality to have as a creator, to try to focus on the
    video.
        We do do SEO now, especially as the business has gotten
    bigger, to try to get more people who may have seen a video of
    mine once on a train 7 months ago and now they want tea. You
    know, that can help that person find my website if they have
    already had a real interaction with me online.
        But I think that as a business owner, you are asking--I
    would be asking a lot of SEO to convert somebody who has like
    never seen me, doesn't know the brand, doesn't know the tea.
    That is not really how I would look to use it. I think it is
    that final push to get somebody who already does know you up to
    the top of the list.
        Mr. JACK. Wonderful. And I have got just a minute left. So
    I am curious, on an analytics perspective, if you could share
    with the Committee, are you using Google Trend? What analytic
    structure are you using to help at least see how successful
    your advertising has been?
        And we can start with you and go as far as we can.
        Ms. MORAN. I mean, each platform has its own analytics
    tools. I think Google Alerts are great to see, you know, what
    people are searching for and what comes up when they are
    searching. But I have a newsletter on beehiiv, and beehiiv has
    really great analytics for email open rates and, you know,
    click rates within an email, but each platform has its own
    tools.
        Mr. JACK. Thank you.
        Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah, I think it is really important to look
    at the platform specifically, but I do want to voice that there
    are aggregate platforms that companies can buy, and I hate to
    say it but a lot of times they are wrong. So businesses are
    then getting this data, and it is based on things that aren't
    correct.
        So there is another, I guess you could say, issue that
    needs to be addressed there. Thank you.
        Mr. JACK. Thank you.
        Please.
        Mr. LUCIANO. My bread and butter has always been audience
    retention, so I look at retention curves and I look at, you
    know--I mean, TikTok specifically has done a great job of
    including more analytics of where we can improve our videos.
        Mr. JACK. Thank you.
        Lastly.
        Mr. APPELL. Yeah. I also look at creator--like, the
    interaction. If I am getting great comments from people that
    really care about what I am talking about, I kind of hope that
    the rest of it is going well. But, you know, in terms of raw
    analytics, I use the Google Analytics platform.
        Mr. JACK. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Chairman, I think this is a great hearing. I appreciate
    you for convening it, and I yield back my time.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Schmidt for 5 minutes.
        Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you
    for convening this, thank the witnesses, and express my
    apologies for my late arrival. It wasn't a lack of interest. I
    will never get back the last 5 hours of my life in the
    Judiciary Committee with Director Patel. And it was a--let's
    just say I am in the mindset where sort of the darkness of
    human nature is currently on my mind. So this is uplifting.
        Tea would do it. That would be fantastic, yeah. Although
    Kash would say it is spiked with something we imported from
    China. So, you know, it is a whole different deal.
        So sort of in that spirit, let me ask you a question. It is
    kind of the flip side of what our colleague from Maryland asked
    you. He asked you your initial thoughts using the illustration
    of child exploitation and ICAC work online, you know, what can
    be done to make things safe. Let me ask you the flip side of
    that.
        One of the things the Director said to us repeatedly today
    in multiple contexts--and it wasn't an internet hearing. It was
    a wide-ranging around the world, and yet he came back I think
    four or five times when asked, you know, what is the one thing
    we could do in Congress that would make America safer. And he
    said, give us more eyes and tools to find bad guys doing bad
    things online. It was a constant theme.
        Let's assume for the sake of discussion we take that advice
    and try to figure out from very smart people what things we
    could do that would be helpful. From your vantage point, what
    should we be keeping in mind so that we don't throw the baby
    out with the bath water, kill the goose that laid the golden
    egg--pick the metaphor that you want--but so we don't foul up
    the good things you are doing online while we are trying to
    address the really awful things a lot of folks are doing
    online?
        We can just go down the line.
        Mr. APPELL. I may have a little unconventional angle on
    this because I spent 10 years in China doing Chinese social
    media. And in China, political interests were always the thing
    that was dictating what the people who are regulating the
    internet were doing. It wasn't business. It wasn't art. It was
    politics.
        And so I think finding a way that if we have the eyes and
    the ears to be able to go and catch bad people on the internet,
    that it can be done in a data-forward way as opposed to a
    politics-forward way. And make sure that those tools are used
    and people know that they are being adjudicated fairly and not
    because of any given political cycle. Thank you.
        Mr. LUCIANO. I will actually give you an interesting story
    on this topic of the bad guys. My dad was robbed. I am from
    Maryland. My dad lives in Maryland, and his Side-by-Side was
    stolen. And me as a creator, I went to the internet and was
    like, hey, this is the footage. This is what happened. And
    literally the entire--I am from Cecil County, Maryland. Cecil
    County came together through comments and through--like
    singular comments of people going to work at 4 a.m. in the
    morning, I saw that Side-by-Side riding down the road. And
    through that we were able to catch the guy.
        So I think things like that are really great, and social
    media has that community aspect where, even if it is not
    regulated, like, single comments can help things like that go a
    long way to catch the bad guys.
        Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. And I think there was a documentary
    around cats that did something similar where there were
    internet sleuths around there. I won't say the name of the
    documentary. You will have to look that one up.
        But as far as, you know, using AI for good, scraping is
    wonderful, because if we can catch these guys before the
    content even airs, and I am talking about explicit images,
    things that have to do with children, I mean, that is a win.
        Now, the guidelines need to be clear and explicit. So that
    is a very, very, very important factor in this sort of, I guess
    you could say, content policing and, you know, the safety of
    our kids. Thank you.
        Ms. MORAN. And I will zoom out a little bit from just the
    AI aspect of it, but I think mental health, which I think we
    can all attest to, community. Brands can build businesses using
    community. They can build community first and then launch a
    product, and then they have sales immediately built into that.
        But I think also, at least for me, I wouldn't be here today
    if I hadn't had a community online when I was in law school in
    my darkest days, and the rise of social media really allowed me
    to have a voice and share it and find like-minded people.
        And I think for children as well, there are really great
    tools. There are a lot of, you know, learn how to read, learn
    how to color, learn your numbers, online educational
    programming using social media that could be really, really
    helpful.
        And I think if we regulate and disclose when AI or bad
    actors are being, you know--when they are caught and they are
    taken down and banned from using the platform so more good
    content can keep coming up.
        Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you.
        Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. The gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize Mr. Patronis from the great State of
    Florida for 5 minutes.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Thank you, Chairman. Thank y'all for being
    here.
        I am not going to try to lead with questions--or lead you
    with my questions I am asking, but let's talk Section 230. How
    important is its existence to each of you?
        Ms. MORAN. Can you expand on the section, please?
        Mr. PATRONIS. If we repealed Section 230, would your life
    change?
        Ms. MORAN. Can you expand what the section is for those who
    don't know?
        Mr. PATRONIS. Oh, Section 230 is providing liability
    protection to social media companies.
        Ms. MORAN. I mean, I think that would be really helpful,
    especially from the legal perspective. I think, again, the
    education, the regulation, the disclosure, limiting liability
    for creators if they are, you know, being the one violating
    these platforms. But I think the platforms being regulated and
    held accountable.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Sure.
        Ms. BRENNAN. I don't know enough about the section to be
    able to talk about it. As far as limitation of liability as far
    as creators are concerned, that would be very helpful in
    navigating the business and the landscape that is ever
    changing. Thank you.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Great. Thank you.
        Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I don't know enough about the section to
    form an opinion on it.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Got you.
        Mr. APPELL. I don't know specifically about that section
    either, other than I think the responsibility on the side of
    both the platforms and the creators is important. If we all
    know that everybody has responsibility for what they are
    putting up, you generally will get better actions, I think.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Cool. So parent of a 14-year-old and a 17-
    year-old. It is fascinating. When I was a kid, I would open up
    this catalog called JCPenney, and I would circle all the things
    I wanted for Christmas in it. Now, because of what my children
    now are able to find, they are writing very detailed lists
    because of how they have been influenced on social media of the
    exact model, color, style, model number of what they want. It
    is crazy. Their desire for different colognes and how social
    media has steered--you are laughing because you know exactly
    what I am talking about, and it is so stinking powerful.
        So now here is my concern. Should the liability--if we were
    going to try to regulate this for the health of our kids, is it
    easier for us to say, all right, Congress, if you want to fix
    this, why don't you just fix it with two players, and that is
    Apple and Google, or do you go out there and create a solution
    that is going to affect every social media company, or do you
    do both?
        I would love any input you have about that.
        Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah. Thank you for that question. I think it
    needs to be everything, because we don't know the next social
    media platform and how fast it is going to grow. So instead of
    being, you know, perhaps, behind, we get ahead. And I also
    think it is really important to look at biometric information
    and how that is being collected and how that is being used.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Elaborate.
        Ms. BRENNAN. So I know Illinois, I think back in 2008,
    passed the Biometric Information Privacy Act, and that has to
    deal with--and, again, please look into this, but to my
    understanding, it dealt with written consent, clear consent.
    And as soon as the content or the information that was being,
    you know, collected was done with, they delete it and it
    couldn't be sold.
        So I think we need to look into that as far as, not only
    collecting content, but when companies buy it, can they pair it
    up with the users there so they can create a full, you know,
    image.
        And I know the EU--I will let Ms. Moran speak to that. And
    the legal implications did pass some, you know, data protection
    acts.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Yeah, I think they are a little more--a
    little stronger in their protections than here.
        Ms. MORAN. I mean, in general, the EU has a lot stronger
    protections for things, even beauty products and chemicals and
    things. So, yeah, I think looking to other countries that have
    done similar things.
        I like the idea of biometric regulation. You know,
    companies, you know--an influencer's swimwear line, they use
    where their customers are coming from. You know, how many times
    did they shop this year? What colors do they like? What prints
    do they like to, you know, design new collections. But how much
    information are they really getting? And, yeah, what are they
    doing with it? Maybe they are not selling it, but bad actors
    are coming in and hacking into it and selling it.
        Mr. PATRONIS. So do you think--again, getting back to the
    question, do you think, if Congress was going to act on trying
    to create some protections, do we just put the expectations on
    Google and Apple because they have the market share, or do you
    go and pivot to Facebook, Meta, Twitter, TikTok?
        Ms. MORAN. I think, as Christina said, I think everybody. I
    think those two for sure, Apple, Google. Start there. Meta,
    they are a monolith. You know, they own Instagram, they own
    Edits, they own--what is the other one? They own WhatsApp. You
    know, they are huge.
        So I think going after Meta as well, and then through
    TikTok and Snap Inc. Even Uber and Lyft, you know, they are
    using social media as well. The dating apps. Like, everybody.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Yeah. Don't get me started on dating apps.
        Mr. APPELL. And then just very briefly, I think it is a
    good thing for the country if everybody plays by the same
    rules. But that being said, if we do have one or two parties
    that are just bigger, making sure those people play by the
    rules as a way to make sure everybody else knows the rules have
    changed would be great.
        Mr. PATRONIS. Great. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is up. I appreciate you
    all.
        Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
        What a great hearing this has been. We appreciate all of
    you, and I would like to thank all of our witnesses for your
    testimony and for appearing before us today.
        Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to
    submit additional materials and written questions for the
    witnesses to the Chair which will be forwarded to the
    witnesses. So I ask the witnesses to please respond promptly if
    that happens.
        And if there is no further business, without objection, the
    Committee is adjourned. And we want to come down and shake your
    hand, so don't leave yet.
        Thank you.
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