[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
OPENING DOORS TO OPPORTUNITY:
THE PROMISE OF EXPANDED SCHOOL CHOICE
AND ALTERNATIVES TO
FOUR-YEAR COLLEGE DEGREES
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC GROWTH, ENERGY
POLICY, AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND
GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
SEPTEMBER 17, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-48
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
61-737 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Robert Garcia, California, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Maxwell Frost, Florida
Pat Fallon, Texas Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Byron Donalds, Florida Greg Casar, Texas
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Jasmine Crockett, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Emily Randall, Washington
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Wesley Bell, Missouri
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Lateefah Simon, California
Nick Langworthy, New York Dave Min, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Eli Crane, Arizona Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Brian Jack, Georgia Vacancy
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Mitch Benzine, General Counsel
Daniel Flores, Senior Counsel
Kyle Martin, Counsel
Charles Donahue, Professional Staff Member
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Energy Policy, and Regulatory Affairs
Eric Burlison, Missouri, Chairman
Gary Palmer, Alabama Maxwell Frost, Florida, Ranking
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Member
Byron Donalds, Florida Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Dave Min, California
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Ro Khanna, California
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Eric Burlison, U.S. Representative, Chairman................ 1
Hon. Maxwell Frost, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member.......... 2
WITNESSES
Mr. Shaka Mitchell, Senior Fellow, American Federation for
Children
Oral Statement................................................... 5
Dr. Cody Hirschi, Superintendent, Reeds Spring School District
Oral Statement................................................... 6
Mr. Todd Dillender, Chief Operating Officer, Caliber Collision
Centers
Oral Statement................................................... 8
Ms. Rachel Greszler, Visiting Fellow in Workforce, Economic
Policy Innovation Center, Senior Policy Analyst, The Heritage
Foundation
Oral Statement................................................... 9
Ms. Stephanie Vanos (Minority Witness), School Board Member,
District 6 Orange County Public Schools (Florida)
Oral Statement................................................... 11
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
* Article, City Journal, ``Blue States Used to Lead in
Education, Not Anymore''; submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* Article, Journal of School Choice, ``Is More School Choice
Associated with Higher State-Level Performance on the NAEP'';
submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* Statement, September 17, 2025, Defending Education; submitted
by Rep. Burlison.
* Bill Text, H.R. 3345--119th Congress; submitted by Rep.
Higgins.
* Letter, from Americans United for Separation of Church and
State, to Subcommittee on September 16, 2025; submitted by Rep.
Min.
* Letter, from National Parents Union to Subcommittee;
submitted by Rep. Min.
* Statement from Christy Moreno of National Parents Union,
September 17, 2025; submitted by Rep. Min.
* Statement from The Arc, September 17, 2025; submitted by Rep.
Min.
The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.
ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS
* Questions for the Record: Ms. Rachel Greszler; submitted by
Rep. Burlison.
* Questions for the Record: Mr. Shaka Mitchell; submitted by
Rep. Burlison.
These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be
available upon request.
OPENING DOORS TO OPPORTUNITY:
THE PROMISE OF EXPANDED SCHOOL CHOICE
AND ALTERNATIVES TO
FOUR-YEAR COLLEGE DEGREES
----------
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2025
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Energy Policy, and Regulatory Affairs
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in
room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Eric Burlison
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Burlison, Higgins, Boebert, Frost,
Ansari, and Min.
Mr. Burlison. This hearing of the Subcommittee on Economic
Growth, Energy Policy, and Regulatory Affairs will come to
order.
I want to welcome everyone to today's hearing.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN ERIC BURLISON
REPRESENTATIVE FROM MISSOURI
Mr. Burlison. Plato once said, ``the direction in which
education starts, a man will determine his future in life.''
This truth echoes across the millennia for our youth today.
Education is a foundation of a flourishing society and
individual, and yet in America today our education foundation
has seen cracks and has been crumbling for years. That
jeopardizes American prosperity.
For 25 years, reading and math proficiency has flatlined,
our children are not flourishing. They are falling behind.
Meanwhile, the bureaucratic behemoth of traditional, and I
stress traditional, K through 12 education has only grown
larger measuring its success only by the outcomes of one
metric: college admissions.
For many decades, college has been thought of as the key to
success in American. College degrees guaranteed high-paying
comfortable jobs, but the promise of college as a guaranteed
path to prosperity is now waning. Half of the graduate class of
2023 now works in jobs that do not even require a degree.
Entry-level white-collar positions are disappearing as our
economy changes and the use of artificial intelligence rises.
The United States faces an unprecedented surplus of college
graduates, many buried in debt for decades, many holding
degrees of little value to the marketplace.
At the same time, our economy is starved for what higher
education refuses to supply, which is manufacturing
technicians, skilled tradesmen, engineers, and tradeswomen, and
workers who can build to maintain the backbone of this great
nation. It is time that we re-evaluate our education system.
Fortunately, President Trump and Congressional Republicans
have made considerable efforts to challenge the traditional
model. The One Big Beautiful Bill Act that was signed into law
earlier this year incentivizes funding of scholarships and
offers an opportunity for parents to send their children to the
best schools.
School choice is not a theory. It is freedom and it is
competition and it is accountability. It is vital to our
economy, and it should be as American as apple pie and
baseball. And alternative choices are not just needed at the K
through 12 level. They are also needed at the postsecondary
level. Recent reporting from the Department of Labor highlights
that in the trades the average salary after completion of an
apprenticeship is $11,000 more than that of recent college
graduates.
Career in trades, as we will hear today from our witnesses,
are vital. They offer high-paying jobs and provide ample
opportunities across our education and training programs, and
they are vital to prepare young people to take advantage of
these opportunities. They pass on critical learning that
upholds and strengthens businesses and local economies. America
needs more postsecondary educational alternatives to prepare
young people for these rewarding careers, alternatives that
offer clear cut and viable opportunities compared to
underperforming 4-year college programs.
America's youth and families deserve and America's economy
demands educational and career training choices that better fit
students, families, and the needs of our communities. And with
that, I yield to Ranking Member Frost for his opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER
MAXWELL FROST, REPRESENTATIVE FROM FLORIDA
Mr. Frost. Thank you, Chairman Burlison, and thank you so
much to the witnesses for being here this morning. In America,
every student's school should set them up for success in life
and a plan after graduation whether it is 4-year college, trade
school, apprenticeship, or going straight into the workforce so
that a student can survive in the 21st century in our country.
But in the richest country in the world, every child should
be able to unleash their potential and flourish. It is a
promise that we are failing to keep: 2025 test scores in high
school reading and math shows the lowest results in decades.
Too many schools are not paying their teachers enough or do
not have strong extracurricular programs. More than half of the
school districts need major upgrades or renovations to their
buildings, and too many students are graduating high school
without a concrete plan for what comes next, and for many it is
a problem of opportunity.
Communities of color, rural communities, working class
families have systemically been excluded from quality education
and a better future.
House Democrats have been fighting to fix this. We worked
with President Biden to help schools recover from the pandemic.
We pushed for robust child nutritional programs because kids
cannot learn when they are hungry. We worked to ensure that
schools have clean drinking water free from led contamination,
and we have consistently stood with children when fighting to
enact gun violence prevention measures, actions that Americans
overwhelmingly support.
Democrats will continue to fight so that every student,
regardless of where they live or their family's income, has
unlimited potential.
But we have got to be clear about what we are up against.
Congressional Republicans are pushing policies that would make
this vision harder to reach and not easier. Their so-called
solution of using government taxpayer money to subsidize
private schools drains resources from the vast majority of
students, 90 percent of whom attend public school.
The proposed nationwide voucher program would starve public
schools of up to $5 billion annually taking money from public
schools that have an obligation to educate every student and
instead give it to private schools that can in many cases only
take a select few.
Republicans call this school choice, but it is not a choice
for families, because it is the charter school or private
school that ultimately gets to decide which students they take
and which students they keep.
Our public schools are tasked with educating all students,
no matter who they are. And private schools are not held to the
same standards as public schools.
Private schools that take public dollars through voucher
programs do not even have basic protections for students with
disabilities. While Republicans claim--while congressional
Republicans claim that you can access a better education with
vouchers, evidence shows that no improvement or even worst test
scores and achievement outcomes for children who attend private
schools using vouchers, essentially taking taxpayer government
money and funneling it to corporations, a lot of same story we
saw in the Big Beautiful Bill for billionaires.
We know this is true in Florida. Private school vouchers
are expected to cost the state $3.9 billion for the most recent
school year. Meanwhile, student achievement in Florida
continues to decline. When a child's education is nurtured,
they can flourish whatever career they choose, and I think
about my own story as someone who attended and benefited from
Florida public schools.
I attended a public arts high school and middle school, the
Osceola County School for the Arts, very underfunded public
arts school. We had instruments falling apart, but we made do
with what we had. And as a kid, I often got in trouble. I was a
bit of a troublemaker, believe it or not. But it was my
teachers who invested in me and sent me on a path that I
followed all the way to the U.S. Congress.
In Florida public schools, I learned how to advocate. I
even sat on my local school board in the Osceola County School
District representing all the students of Osceola County for
two years, my junior and senior year of high school, and
sitting on that school board I got to see what it meant to
stand up for what you believe in during public comment, see the
lines and rows of teachers and students and families lining up
to say something to the school board. They even let me sit on
the dais.
I bring this up--oh, and I also learned how to explore
different paths. I was a drummer. Obviously, something went
wrong, because I went from drumming into politics, but I was a
jazz drummer.
Without a strong public school and without an education
system that valued the arts, I would not be where I am today.
And as someone who did not graduate college, yes, I am one of
the few Members of Congress without a 4-year degree, I went
straight into working. But I understand the need to invest in
all students futures, even those who do not have a 4-year
degree.
Democrats worked with the Biden Harris Administration to
invest in thousands of new apprenticeship opportunities through
the Inflation Reduction Act and the CHIPS and Science Act, and
for students who chose to go to college, the previous
Administration removed some of the crippling student debt that
was holding them back from financial success.
House Democrats will continue to work to improve college
affordability to ensure that every student that wants an
education can get an education and a quality college degree.
Meanwhile, we see the Trump Administration, they are
gutting the Department of Education, ending Federal student
loan programs, and creating a backlog of civil rights
enforcement cases. Trump has also undermined workplace
protections by crippling the National Labor Relations Board,
gutting the work of the Equal Opportunities Employment
Commission, and destroying the unions that fight for safe and
fair working conditions for more than one million Federal
employees. Now, for the first time since 2021, in the direct
aftermath after COVID pandemic, there are more people looking
for jobs than there are jobs available in this country.
This is where the Trump policies have led us. The
government has a critical role in changing course and setting
every child up for success. This means fully funding our public
schools, expanding access to apprenticeship and job training
opportunities, and addressing the college affordability crisis
that prices too many families from opportunities. I look
forward to our witness testimony on how Congress can restore
the American dream, and I yield back.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Ranking Member Frost.
I am pleased to welcome a panel of witnesses who each bring
their experience and expertise that we will find valuable for
today's discussion. First, we have Shaka Mitchell, who is a
Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children. Next, we
have Dr. Cody Hirschi, Superintendent of Reed Springs School
District, which is in my district in Stone County, Missouri.
Dr. Hirschi has worked in education for over 15 years, and not
only is he Superintendent, but he helps to oversee the Reed
Springs High School Table Rock Career Center.
Next, we have Todd Dillender who is the Chief Operating
Officer of Caliber Collision Centers. And next I would like to
welcome Rachel Greszler who is a Visiting Fellow at the
Economic Policy Innovation Center and Research Fellow at the
Heritage Foundation. And finally, we have Stephanie Vanos who
is a School Board Member for District Six in Orange County,
Florida. I want to say thank you to each of you for being here
today and we all look forward to your testimony.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please
stand and raise their right hands.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God.
Let the record show that the witnesses all answered in the
affirmative. You may take your seats.
We appreciate all of you being here and look forward to
your testimony. Let me remind you how this works. You have
provided written statements. Each of you gets 5 minutes. In
front of you there is a light, and when it turns yellow, it is
time to start wrapping up. When it turns red, it is time to
complete your thoughts.
And with that, I now recognize Mr. Mitchell for his 5
minute opening statement.
STATEMENT OF SHAKA MITCHELL, SENIOR FELLOW
AMERICAN FEDERATION FOR CHILDREN
Mr. Mitchell. Thank you, Chairman, Members of the
Subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you
today. My name is Shaka Mitchell, and I serve as a Senior
Fellow at the American Federation For Children, the Nation's
largest school choice advocacy organization. Our mission is
simple. To ensure that families, especially lower income
families, have the freedom to choose the education that best
fits the needs of their child.
Education is a foundation of opportunity in America, but
today too many children are being denied the opportunity. The
most recent national assessment of educational progress scores
show historic lows in reading, math, and science among high
school students. These declines began long before the pandemic,
but COVID-19 accelerated the crisis.
The result is millions of young people graduating without
the skills they need for college, the workforce, or civic life.
This is not just an education problem. It is a workforce
problem, a civic problem, and ultimately an economic problem.
School choice provides a path forward. Today over 1.3
million students are enrolled in one of 74 publicly funded
choice programs across the country. This is not about
abandoning public education. It is about expanding options,
fostering innovation, and holding every school accountable for
results.
And evidence is clear, school choice improves outcomes for
students who participate and for those who remain in
traditional public schools. In fact, 27 out of 30 studies have
shown positive or neutral effects on the achievement of
students who stay in their local public schools.
Perhaps the most striking data comes from Ohio's Ed Choice
Program. Students in that program were not just more likely to
graduate high school. They were 30 percent more likely to
enroll in college and 60 percent more likely to earn a
bachelor's degree than their peers. For the lowest income
students, the effect was even greater. They were 175 percent
more likely to graduate from college. These are not incremental
gains. These are life-changing outcomes.
And behind every statistic is a student. I think of Izzy, a
young woman I met in St. Louis. Izzy was born with spina
bifida, and her public school could not or would not provide
accommodations because they said they could not do it for a
single child.
With financial assistance, her mom, a former public-school
teacher, enrolled her in a private school. Today Izzy is
thriving academically and socially, and alongside her mom
Becky, she advocates for other students who need options. That
is the power of giving families education freedom.
Critics often say we should simply spend more on
traditional systems, but Florida offers a powerful counter
example. Between 2003 and 2017, Florida invested about $2.5
billion in its tax credit scholarship program. That investment
generated achievement gains for public school students 11 times
greater than what equivalent spending increases would have
produced in the public system.
In other words, choice does not just work. It provides a
higher return on investment than other educational
interventions.
Education is also about cultivating citizens. Research
shows that students in choice programs are more likely to
volunteer, vote, and engage civically, and school choice
fosters community renewal. I have seen it firsthand in
Nashville where high performing charter schools do not just
educate children, they attract investment, create jobs, and
stabilize neighborhoods.
Members of the Subcommittee, this ought not be a debate
about dollars. It is about human potential. It is about being
college career and military ready. And so, the question before
us is whether we will give every family, regardless of income
or zip code, the freedom to choose the education that helps
their child flourish. Thanks to this Congress, school choice
will be coming to every state soon.
On behalf of the American Federation for Children, I thank
you for your leadership and urge Congress to support families
by supporting policies that expand educational freedom. Thank
you.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
I now recognize Dr. Hirschi for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF DR. CODY HIRSCHI, SUPERINTENDENT REEDS
SPRING SCHOOL DISTRICT
Dr. Hirschi. Good morning, Chairman Burlison, Ranking
Member Frost, and Members of the Committee. My name is Cody
Hirschi. I am the Superintendent of the Reed Springs School
District in southwest Missouri. We are a rural school similar
to many found across our great state and throughout our
country, and our students come to school having experienced
trauma, food insecurity, and a lack of stable adult guidance.
We educate them all while helping each child envision and
pursue the full potential control of who they can become.
I believe this is the greatest time to be an educator in
that we are raising the greatest generation of children our
country has seen. I am here because we are working to build a
stronger and more resilient America. Each child deserves a
personalized learning experience that prepares them for the
workforce, family life, and active responsible citizenship.
At Reed Springs Schools we are partnering with parents and
the community to move beyond the 19th century model of
education to create a system that builds durable skills and
real-world experiences. This shared vision drives our expansion
of career pathways, internships, and other real-world
opportunities. We chose to invest in real-world learning
because we see every day how students thrive when their
education connects directly to authentic career paths. We have
implemented several key initiatives to provide our students
with choice and options.
First, we created a regional internship program called
RSWorks. This internship experience serves three counties and
11 school districts. We strategically invested in a full-time
internship coordinator who develops partnerships with our area
chamber of commerce and business community to create placement
opportunities for our high school students. Our students spend
a portion of their school day working in mostly paid
internships with experts in their field of interest.
These business partners collaborate with our internship
coordinator to create meaningful exposure to their industry.
Most of our interns secure full-time employment in their
internship field after high school or continue postsecondary
studies in related area.
Here are two examples of how our internship program is
impacting our students. Max, as a junior, was ready to extend
his learning beyond the regular curriculum. Our team worked
with Max to create a schedule that allowed him to take 33
college credit hours his junior year.
Max entered his senior year thinking he wanted to go into
dentistry. Through our RSWorks program, Max obtained a paid
internship with a local dentist where he received on-the-job
training and could now determine if this is a path he wants to
pursue.
Another student, Emma, was deciding between a career in law
and working with animals. During her law internship, she
quickly realized that being an attorney was not the route for
her. She fell in love with working with animals and is now
going into--is now in a pre-veterinary program at Missouri
State University. In Emma's case, she was able to quickly learn
that going into law was not for her well before she wasted
money and time in college.
Another area where we are innovating and providing real
world experiences is our new Table Rock Career Center partly
funded by Federal Perkins dollars. Our career center gives
students across the region real world hands-on training in
fields such as Emergency Medical Technician (EMT), health
occupations, automotive and collision repair, culinary arts,
welding and construction, graphic design and technology,
education, marine technology, engineering, and criminal
justice.
Before launching these programs, we surveyed students,
analyzed regional labor market data, and collaborated with
local employers to design pathways that align with both student
goals and workforce needs. Students build homes, repair cars,
and serve in nursing homes and on ambulances among several
other real world learning opportunities. Each program is guided
by an advisory team of experts working in our community in
those related fields.
Not only do our students gain incredible experience, but
they are also earning industry recognized credentials growing
from 28 earned when I arrived to 226 earned last year. Eighty-
eight percent of our students who attend Table Rock Career
Center and are in an internship have a positive placement in a
career path in the related field or postsecondary institution
offered to them.
Through our portrait of graduate framework, we emphasize
durable skills such as communication, critical thinking,
adaptability, integrity, perseverance, and emotional
resilience. We are implementing student pathways, strength-
based assessments, and competency-based learning giving
students voice and agency in their education. Families who
might otherwise look outside the public system for
individualized programs can find those very opportunities right
in their neighborhood public school.
We are working tremendously hard in southwest Missouri to
provide the diversity and quality of options that parents and
students seek with the hope that they leave our campus really
prepared for life. By building a world-class, student-centered
system that offers meaningful pathways and personalized
learning, we ensure that are schools embody the very best
education has to offer. Thank you for the opportunity to share
our story and for your commitment to America's children.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Dr. Hirschi.
I now recognize Mr. Dillender for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF TODD DILLENDER
CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, CALIBER COLLISION CENTERS
Mr. Dillender. Thank you. Chairman Burlison, Ranking Member
Frost, and Members of the Committee, thank you for the
opportunity to testify here today.
For me, this is not just business. It is personal. I
started in the collision repair more than 30 years ago as a
technician apprenticeship. I have been a detailer, a Service
Advisor, a General Manager, and today I serve as Chief
Operating Officer at Caliber Collision.
I have lived what this career can offer and I know
firsthand how life changing it is when someone gets a chance to
learn a trade. That is why the shortage of technicians weighs
heavily on me. Tech force estimates we need nearly 100,000 new
technicians between 2024 and 2028. And the reality is our
traditional pipelines, high school and trade school graduates,
simply are not producing enough people to keep up.
This shortage ripples across the economy. When repairs are
delayed, costs rise, insurers feel it, consumers feel it, and
road safety is at risk, and the challenge is only growing.
Vehicles are more complex than ever with advanced safety
systems that must be calibrated and tested before they go back
on the road. That makes every repair more critical and every
technician more essential.
This is why we built TAP, our Technician Apprentice
Program. TAP takes people, many with no prior experience, and
provides structured training, mentorship, and a clear path to
certification. It is competency based, typically completed
within 12 to 18 months. Apprentices are paid day one. They
receive benefits and they are given tools early in the program,
and they graduate debt free. It is life changing. They walk
away with a career and a future they may have never imagined.
And the impact is real. Since 2023, we have graduated more
than 2,300 apprentices and at any given time we have another
1,300 to 1,800 in training. Those graduates are out in the
field today repairing tens of thousands of vehicles, keeping
families safe, and restoring the rhythm of their lives.
We celebrate every milestone. Graduations are big moments.
Families are invited, mentors are recognized, and apprentices
are honored for their achievement. For many families, this is
the very first graduation that they have ever attended. I have
stood in the rooms. I have seen the pride, the tears, and the
joy, and it proves what programs like this can do, not just for
an apprentice, but for an entire family.
And mentorship is the heartbeat of TAP. Our most seasoned
technicians, true craftsmen with decades of experience, serve
as mentors. For them it is more than training. As the physical
demands in trade increase with age, mentoring gives them a way
to extend their careers, pass down their knowledge, and shape
the future of the profession.
We have proven this model works, but here is the truth. One
company or even one industry, we cannot solve this alone. The
need spans every skilled trade, automotive, diesel, aviation,
and beyond. If more employers had the resources to launch and
sustain programs like TAP, we could transform the workforce
across this country.
Too often grants and incentives help with startup costs,
but sustaining programs like this is expensive. Companies like
ours are making long-term investments, but to scale nationally,
we need help. And this is where you come in.
By expanding workforce funding, offering tax incentives,
and reducing regulatory barriers, you can help more companies
create, sustain, and scale apprenticeship programs. We have
shown what is possible. Now we need to multiply it. And with
your support, apprenticeships can become the engine that
rebuilds America's skilled workforce across collision, across
trade, and across industries.
Chairman Burlison, Ranking Member Frost, and Members of the
Committee, thank you again for allowing me to share our
experience. For me, this started as an apprentice turning
wrenches, and today it is about ensuring the next generation
has the same chance. I am grateful for your leadership in
helping make that possible.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Dillender.
I now recognize Ms. Greszler for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF RACHEL GRESZLER, VISITING FELLOW
IN WORKFORCE, ECONOMIC POLICY INNOVATION CENTER
SENIOR POLICY ANALYST, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION
Ms. Greszler. Mr. Burlison, Mr. Frost, and other Members of
the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today.
In my testimony I will provide a snapshot of younger Americans'
employment, identify government policies that are holding
younger people back, highlight some positive momentum and
further solutions, and last, note the high stakes for younger
Americans.
Twenty-five years ago, the majority of younger Americans
were working. Today, fewer than half of younger Americans are
employed. That is a gap of 4.5 million young people who are not
working. This matters because whether working in fast food or
retail or an entry-level office job, those first jobs teach
important life skills like showing up on time, getting along
with co-workers, and sticking with a task, even when it is
boring or difficult.
Unfortunately, many schools are not doing their part to
prepare young people to be reliable workers and responsible
adults. Test scores have stagnated, grade inflation is rampant,
and discipline and accountability are lacking. The result, as
scholar Samuel Abrams put it, is the quiet unraveling of a
trait, conscientiousness, that built civilization. Younger
Americans are more careless and distracted. They are less
tenacious and resilient. They make fewer commitments and fail
to follow through on their commitments they do make.
Families play the most important role, but they are having
to push back against school, culture, and government policies.
Washington has poured hundreds of billions of dollars into
Federal higher education subsidies. They have created a near
monopoly on student lending, but instead of better outcomes for
students, they face higher tuition, ballooning debt, and too
many degrees that do not pay off. More than a third of
undergraduate programs today have a negative return on
investment, and only 60 percent of students who enter a college
graduate with a degree within six years.
Meanwhile, red tape is holding back proven alternatives
like apprenticeships. A Harvard study found that we could be
using apprenticeships to fill three times as many occupations
and eight times as many job openings. The good news is that
states, communities, and employers are showing what works.
Florida and Arizona have led the way in demonstrating school
choice success. And now as more states are following suit, we
are seeing increasing numbers.
Half of U.S. students are eligible for some form of private
choice program. Also, over just the past two years, a majority
of states have passed laws limiting cell phone use in schools.
When students are not glued to screens, they learn better, they
feel safer, and they can become more conscientious.
In Alabama, the west Alabama partnership brings schools and
employers together. Ninth graders are required to attend a
Worlds of Work Career Expo and seniors can attend these expos
and leave with a guaranteed job after graduation.
Employers and industries are taking action too. In 2010,
Toyota started the Federation for Advanced Manufacturing
Education Apprenticeship Program. Now Fame U.S.A. as it is
known has become an industry-run program in which students
participate in both paid on-the-job training and classroom
education. They earn an associate's degree in advanced
manufacturing and 90 percent of participants find employment
with their sponsoring employers. Moreover, they earn up to 86
percent more than their peers. We need more of these bridges
from education to work.
Congress has already taken significant steps in the One Big
Beautiful Bill Act expanding 529 accounts, creating workforce
Pell Grants, limiting Federal subsidies for low value degrees,
and imposing work requirements in SNAP and Medicaid. But more
can be done. Policymakers should expand apprenticeships, phase
down Federal subsidies that fuel higher tuition, replace failed
Federal job training programs with employer-led initiatives,
and make welfare more work oriented.
And lastly, I want to give a strong word of caution. The
stakes are high. America is quickly aging. By 2034, there will
be more seniors than children for the first time in history. At
the same time, the Federal debt is rapidly rising with no clear
plan to confront it. Our debt is the equivalent of a second
mortgage for today's younger Americans.
Today's young people will be called on to produce more, to
support an aging population, and they will be required to pay
more to cover past and current spending largesse. America
cannot afford to let millions of young people drift without the
skills, discipline, and opportunity that they need to obtain
good jobs, rising incomes, and the dignity of work. Our
nation's long-term strength and stability depend upon it. Thank
you.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Ms. Greszler.
I now recognize Ms. Vanos for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF STEPHANIE VANOS (MINORITY WITNESS)
SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER, DISTRICT 6
ORANGE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS (FLORIDA)
Ms. Vanos. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Burlison,
Ranking Member Frost, Subcommittee Members. I appreciate the
opportunity to speak here today. My name is Stephanie Vanos. I
am a mom of three children in Orange County Public Schools in
Florida. I am also a school board member for District Six, and
my testimony today reflects my experiences from what I see and
know within Orange County Public Schools.
I want to begin with a story about a recent OCPS graduate.
Adam has been an OCPS student since he was in kindergarten.
Recognizing the impact of funding deficits and the need to
provide additional academic support for students, he started
his own nonprofit while he was in high school which provided
free afterschool tutoring to middle school students. The
program was such a success, and he has the data to prove it,
that he expanded the program not only at his school but other
OCPS high schools.
During his senior year, Adam also created an immersive
experience for students to learn about the Holocaust and fund-
raised over $40,000 to bring a replica of a Holocaust train car
to his high school. With the encouragement of his school
principal, 1,500 students and over 500 community members went
through the exhibit.
In his spare time, this OCPS graduate also created a free
mobile app, which has an international platform, is exclusive
sponsor of the UF Club Pickleball team for the 2025/2026
season, and is partnered with other major universities. After a
year of Adam will attend the University of Florida next year.
Adam is an impressive student, but OCPS students and
graduates are doing incredible things every day. Just this past
weekend, a group of middle school students in my district
competed in a girls with energy hackathon sponsored by Siemens
Energy and won first place with their project titled ``The
Hive'' in which they devised a solution to bring energy to
sandstorm shelters in desert environments.
Students in the guitar class at another middle school in my
district have secured 22 of the 23 Orange County audition slots
for All-State Guitar this weekend. Meanwhile, finance students
at my neighborhood high school are becoming certified to give
free tax return assistance to community members.
In the classroom, our OCPS students are pursuing advanced
classes at higher rates, gaining critical thinking skills, and
saving money on college credits. Just last year OCPS introduced
a new AP precalculus course which over 2,500 students took and
72 percent passed the AP exam.
When it comes to choices and options, our public schools
are excelling. Our students are building a strong academic
foundation and have access to options whether they pursue a 4-
year degree, a 2-year degree, or a trade. For no cost, high
school students can pursue dual enrollment and can earn
credentials in construction, transportation, healthcare,
advanced manufacturing, information technology, or welding
while also earning credits toward a high school diploma.
Unlike the private school counterparts, all students have
access to a high-quality education at OCPS, not just students
who pass an entrance exam or are specially selected. This
includes students with disabilities, students from all
socioeconomic backgrounds, and English language learners. They
all graduate OCPS with options. Our public schools do the most
work for the most people despite chronic underfunding by the
State of Florida.
Voucher and charter school proponents often highlight the
importance of school choice as if it is a new concept, but
choice is nothing new in the public school arena. Choices
abound in our public schools in the form of elective courses,
magnet programs, advanced studies, dual enrollment, career and
technical education, and certificate programs as well as
extensive extracurricular clubs and sports programs. In fact,
charter, home school, and private school students often choose
to take advantage of the extensive array of public school
options and choices.
Public school families love public school choices, but
these choices cannot be sustained with current funding
constraints, much less grow to meet the evolving needs of our
students. Our communities understand this, which is why parents
and stakeholders are so frustrated and concerned when they see
public tax dollars in Florida, to the tune of $3.9 billion,
being diverted away from our public schools into a shadow
system of unregulated, unaccountable, and untransparent private
schools.
How is this fiscally responsible? How is this in the best
interest of our children, students, and communities? All
students deserve highly qualified, well-paid teachers in their
classroom. My high school daughters have lost three of their AP
teachers to higher paying careers since last spring. I
regularly see one of the teachers in my district working a
second shift at target to make ends meet.
Teachers can no longer afford to provide after-school
tutoring to students because their schools cannot pay them
enough to make it financially worth their off-duty time.
Academic counselors are so overworked that students are not
getting the personal attention they need.
At a performing arts magnet school, students and parents
are fundraising for the performing arts, for theater
productions, instruments, and dance recitals. We are not even
funding the choices that we have. Even school safety is
implicated in this disinvestment as OCPS seriously considers
resorting to lesser trained guardians in place of our highly
trained and connected school resource officers.
Our transportation needs are woefully underfunded by our
state, and as the funding does not keep up, our class sizes
increase.
90 percent of American families choose public schools. Let
us fund their choice. Let us invest in schools that are
transparent and accountable to the public. Let us invest in
options that can serve all of our children and will prepare
them for whatever their future holds. Thank you for the
opportunity to speak today.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Ms. Vanos.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of questions. Ms.
Greszler, the research that was quoted earlier suggests that
one out of every two college graduates in the United States is
employed in a job that does not require a degree. Is it fair to
say that the postsecondary education system is not meeting
students' needs?
Ms. Greszler. I think in many instances it is not, and that
is due to this massive amount of subsidies that are pushing too
many people into college 4-year degrees and also graduate
degrees, but also a lack of awareness about what is the outcome
of those degrees, and that is why I think it has been a good
thing that Congress has instituted those restrictions so that
funding are not going to go to programs that do not produce an
outcome of earnings that are higher than a high school
graduate.
And that is exactly what we need more of is more of these
market-based solutions, but we are lacking that with the
enormous amount of Federal money that is in higher education.
Mr. Burlison. When I hear the testimony of Dr. Hirschi
about what is happening in Reed Springs, it seems promising
that they are figuring out how to meet the needs of the
community. Is that rare? Is that happening across the country,
or is this rare?
Ms. Greszler. It is fortunate that we are seeing more of it
happening, but this is a recent uptake, and I think that
hopefully we will continue to see more and more of that, but
that is really where students are getting the education while
being paid that is leading to the same or higher level earnings
as they would get from a college degree, and yet they are
coming out without mountains of debt, and so hopefully we will
continue to see more of that.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
Mr. Dillender, when it comes to your industry, I really was
intrigued by learning about your TAP program, the Technician
Apprenticeship Program. So, my question is, without a program
like that, many young people feel compelled to take out loans
and pursue a 4-year degree during a crucially formative time in
their life.
Could you speak to the transformative effect that the TAP
program has on helping people achieve their milestones for
apprenticeships.
Mr. Dillender. So, I think what I have witnessed and what I
have seen at many of the graduations, if you are thinking
specifically about the apprentice and kind of the opportunities
as they graduate that that kind of promotes and number of
stories of obviously first homes, first cars, those things
being purchased and, you know, really having an opportunity to
support their families very, very differently, so that is one
of the key things that we see as a result of this is as you
look at the families and you spend time with them and
understand the impact, you know, that you have made with them.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
Dr. Hirschi, how has the Table Rock Career Center's newer
programs helped students to flourish?
Dr. Hirschi. It has been significant. Getting our kids to
begin at a young age to understand their workforce, what those
options are, we are really shifting the narrative in southwest
Missouri around entering the workforce rather than just
focusing on a college career path, and so we are seeing kids
that are having a really strong experiences at a young age
where they are not----
Mr. Burlison. Are you seeing that they are excited to come
to school or go into the----
Dr. Hirschi. You can take a kid that maybe is in a
classroom prior to having this workforce connection and they
are just not seeing relevance to the work that they are doing.
And then as soon as they get into an internship or they are
at our career center in one of these trades, the light just
ignites, and so we see a drastic shift in engagement.
That is why these kids, once they leave our career center,
they are going off and entering into a field because they found
a passion.
Mr. Burlison. Would you say--so you kind of integrate with
the business needs of the community. Would it be fair to say
that you both enhance the outcomes for the students but also
are providing value to the local community?
Dr. Hirschi. Absolutely. Our local chamber of commerce is a
significant partner for us, and so we are creating a workforce
path for our own local community. Many of our students are
going off to pursue other career paths, but then coming back
into our local economy, so it is really starting to gain a lot
of momentum, the work that we are doing.
Mr. Burlison. What kind of feedback do you generally get
from the employers?
Dr. Hirschi. It is absolutely amazing. We are actually
adding more and more employers, because the word of mouth
spreads within our community, and so we actually have so many
employers that are wanting interns that we are trying to just
find placement for them, and so they are kind of biting at the
bit just waiting to get a student placed in their employment.
Mr. Burlison. Wow.
Dr. Hirschi. In their business.
Mr. Burlison. That is fantastic. Thank you, and I yield
back the remainder of my time. I now recognize Ms. Ansari for
her 5 minutes of questions.
Ms. Ansari. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
School choice is a convenient euphemism. We know from
history and from reality that what it really means is siphoning
taxpayer dollars away from public schools and handing them over
to private institutions that do not have the same
accountability or transparency. We do not have to look very far
to see the consequences.
Ms. Greszler, I know you represent the Heritage Foundation,
of course the architect of Project 2025, openly antipublic
education, and you referenced Arizona as a success story when
it comes to voucher programs. I actually represent Phoenix,
Arizona.
I can tell you firsthand that our voucher program has been
a catastrophic failure in our state. We have seen ballooning
costs, rampant misuse, and absolutely zero evidence that
student outcomes have improved. Our so-called empowerment
scholarship accounts were sold as a lifeline to our low-income
families in the state.
In reality, the majority of funds, about 70 percent, are
being used by families coming from the wealthiest zip codes in
Arizona. These are families already sending their kids to
private schools while public schools in Arizona are left with
fewer resources to serve the vast majority of students.
The oversight also has been a disaster. We had a hearing on
this with Secretary McMahon and she was unaware of the rampant
misuse. We have seen in Arizona families use voucher dollars on
luxury items, pianos, ski trips, and even video game consoles.
This disaster of a policy has also led to over a billion
dollars of a budget deficit in our Arizona State budget.
It is an issue every single year that the legislature has
to deal with, and that budget shortfall has meant that we have
had to make really, really harmful cuts to a wide range of
other critical programs. I am sure everyone knows that Arizona
has a major water security issue. Last year we had to cut $333
million from our water infrastructure projects to account for
this rampant misuse and abuse of the voucher program.
Meanwhile, our public school teachers are paying out of
their own pockets for classroom supplies, which is shameful.
Students with disabilities, English language learners, and low-
income students who are getting left behind. Private schools
can pick and choose who they admit. Public schools serve
everyone. And voucher programs only widen inequities as opposed
to solving them.
Ms. Greszler, you stated in your opening that the number of
students benefiting from private K12 choice more than doubled
between 2020 and 2025. Yes or no, just because more students
are using school choice vouchers, does that mean that the
program is a success?
Ms. Greszler. By nature of it being a choice, that is
because unlike a public school where you do not have another
option if there is not a choice there, if the people who are
choosing school vouchers are not happy with them, they can
always go back to the public schools.
Ms. Ansari. So, the numbers have gone up, but the answer is
most certainly no, because prolific data shows that test scores
and achievement standards are either the same or lower with
school choice vouchers than non-voucher schools. In fact,
established research shows that investing in public schools is
a better investment providing a higher overall return than
voucher programs.
It just makes sense. We have to invest and strengthen our
public schools, the schools that educate, as our other witness
mentioned, nine out of ten children in this country, not
undermine them with unaccountable voucher programs.
Unfortunately, in so many other ways, the Trump
Administration is leaving students and kids and families
behind. Trump's Big Ugly Bill instituted sweeping cuts to SNAP,
which will make it more difficult for kids to get school
lunches, and if the health and well-being of America's new
generation are not important enough, the provision creating a
Federal tax credit scholarship program has shown to
redistribute funding from the Nation's poorest families and
rural communities to the wealthiest families in this country.
Ms. Greszler, yes or no, when kids are hungry, do they
perform better or worse in school?
Ms. Greszler. Worse.
Ms. Ansari. And yes or no, when kids do not get the
healthcare they need when they are sick, as Trump's cuts to
Medicaid will make sure happens to millions of families in this
country, do they perform better or worse in school?
Ms. Greszler. There were no cuts to Medicaid for children
in the One Big Beautiful Bill. There were actually limits to
able-bodied dependents without children.
Ms. Ansari. 17 million Americans will be impacted. We also
know that rural hospitals will close as a result. The medical
community across the board has sounded the alarm on how this
will impact children in this country as a result.
I think it is important to look at the holistic picture.
Clearly, Republicans have invited witnesses to this hearing
that are unprepared to engage seriously or unaware of all of
the other consequences and all of the other dynamics at play
with the budgets that Congress and Trump are signing into law.
I really hope that we can refocus on solutions for working
people, for students, for families rather than attacking our
public education system as the Trump Administration seems
intent on doing.
Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Ms. Ansari.
I now recognize Mr. Higgins for 5 minutes of questions.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The line of questioning here for our panelists, we
appreciate them all being here, conservative and liberal alike.
The line of questioning from my Democrat colleague essentially
attacking a Republican position and President Trump's
Administration's willingness to embrace this generational issue
or the failure of our education system, that is out of line.
It is very clear for every American that has rubbed two
brain cells together over the course of the last 50 years, Mr.
Chairman, that the funding that we have dumped into education
at the Federal level has not resulted in excellent results for
our kids, and the expense is tremendous. When I started college
in 1979, tuition for a year at LSU was $1,500. Tuition for a
year now at LSU is $12,000. So, there was--and books were 100,
$200 a semester. We bought used books.
As far as living expenses, you know, shelter and food, the
cost of life, you had that expense if you were in college or
not. It is not intellectually sound to say that is a cost of
education. You have to pay your rent. You have to buy your
groceries whether you go to college or not. So, we manage.
Very few students back then had student loans, and the
value of that education was tremendous. It was almost
guaranteed you were going to get a better job, better paying
job if you--if it was your decision to go through college, but
the difference was the expense of college was so low, the value
so high, and the culture of our country produced young American
citizens that made choices with their families to go into a 4-
year education degree or not because we had been well-prepared
to decide not to go to college.
Beginning in the seventh grade, across the country, public
schools, young Americans were trained with a trade. In
Louisiana, we learned agriculture, carpentry, auto repair,
mechanics, welding, equipment operation, timber and logging,
and interestingly, parliamentary procedure. We were expected as
young Americans to learn a trade and have found a sweet-spot as
a young American.
By the time you graduated high school, you better be able
to go to work and you better understand parliamentary
procedure. You have to understand your Constitution, your
founding documents, because you were expected to participate in
society.
This was our country. This was the way our education system
plugged into our communities and our citizenry for generations
until we got so wise at the Federal level and so unionized
throughout our education system that we decided that is it, you
have to have a 4-year degree and it is going to cost more and
more and more.
Now we are crippling young Americans with debt for degrees
that they do not use, and in many cases when they do get their
degree, they come out of school, they have to interview for a
job with somebody that never went to college, because that is
going to be their supervisor. So, we have to address this. We
have to train our young people.
Mr. Mitchell, if we shifted back to the way we did things
before, what would happen for our young Americans in our
country?
Mr. Mitchell. Thank you, Congressman, for the question and
for, you know, the information about what our education system
used to set our children up for, and I think you are right to
acknowledge that we have become too fixated on 4-year college
degrees today. One of the things that I believe school choice
actually helps with is showing families that there is a menu of
options for their students, because what we know, and I know
this as a parent of three girls, there is range and diversity
even among the daughters in my own household.
They have different interests. They have different
affinities and talents and skills. It would be crazy to think
that the exact same path is going to work for each one of them.
So, we have got to have an environment where we are
allowing families to access a pathway that best meets the needs
of their unique children.
For some kids, that is going to be college. For some, it
can be career, maybe getting into the trades as some of the
other witnesses up here have discussed. Graduating high school
with certifications that allow you to get right into the
workforce is a tremendous thing and means that you do not have
to go into debt pursuing a degree that you may not be
interested in in the first place, and choice really opens up
the aperture, widens the aperture so that families have
options.
Mr. Higgins. I thank you for that answer, and I appreciate
the indulgence, Mr. Chairman. I yield.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
I now recognize Ranking Member Frost for his 5 minutes.
Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
No two students are the same, and students across our
diverse country do need options when it comes to education, but
these options have to be proven to work. Some of the proposals
being uplifted today have been implemented in my state of
Florida for the last 20 years while enriching private school
executives, while failing students. Specifically, diverting
funds from public school to poorly regulated charter and
private schools.
One of my colleagues just, you know, went on a rant a
little bit about how things were before. I do not want things
to go completely how they were before for people like me, but I
will say that I think part of what was left out of that that I
think is really important to know is how much wealth and
equality we have in this country versus what we had before.
That every presidency, Democrat and Republican since Ronald
Reagan, the wealth and equality in this country has gotten
worse and worse and worse and worse, and yes, it has put
students at a disadvantage. And I know this very freshly as a
28-year-old member of the U.S. Congress, coming out, seeing the
friends around me who I went to school with struggle to find
work, struggle to put that 4-year degree that they have
crushing student debt with to work.
Last presidency, we said you know what? You are right. My
colleague is right. So many people have been sold this lie.
They got the 4-year degree and now they cannot find work and
they have crushing student debt. Let us alleviate some of that
student debt to help them so they can start their business, so
they can go to trade school, so they can do what they want to
do, and it was my Republican colleagues that fought against us.
It was people--it was conservative organizations like the
Heritage Foundation and attorney generals across this country
that sued and sued to stop us from being able to give some
relief to students in this country because of the lie that we
sold them.
Ms. Vanos, you know, you are someone who started your
education attending K through 12 public school. You went to law
school. You are currently in the middle of your first term as a
member of the Orange County School Board, and most importantly,
you have two children in public schools. Three, my bad. Three
students in Orange County Public Schools. Even better.
And I remember when you were talking about Adam and the
amazing work he did. I actually was one of the community
leaders that went to the Holocaust exhibit that he made, which
I think was really important for students to go through to
learn about hate, to learn about bigotry, to learn what it
looks like and what it sounds like as well, and so Adam is
great and the product of a public school education.
But Ms. Vanos, as someone who grapples with the on-the-
ground education issues like test scores, class size, keeping
textbooks up to date, what does defunding public schools mean
for our students, including your own daughters, as they
progress through their education?
Ms. Vanos. Yes. I think defunding public schools has vast
consequences for our public school students. I think it looks
like, number one, losing highly qualified experienced teachers.
I mean, our schools are nothing without our teachers, and when
we cannot pay our teachers a living wage, like I said, you
know, there is a teacher in my district who works a second job
at Target. I see her there.
So, when we cannot retain and recruit the best teachers and
minimize that teacher turnover in school, that directly impacts
our students, because they build relationships with teachers.
That is what keeps them coming to school.
It also looks, again, like not being able to offer
extracurricular programs and sports, and I would add that a lot
of our private school and home school students take advantage
of those options for free.
Mr. Frost. I was going to bring up, I was just at a middle
school in my district, in Orange County Public Schools, and the
principal said let me show you something, and took me outside
and he pointed to a private school across the street. He said
we are losing students to that school because of the voucher
program.
But guess what? When the school bell rings and our sports
programs are out there, we are going to take a ton of those
students. They are going to come over, because we are required
to let them play sports at our schools, be in our school band,
and we receive zip, zero for those students taking some of the
resources from the public school.
Ms. Vanos. Right. Absolutely. That impacts all of our
students. I mean, I could go on. Our students with disabilities
can always use more help, more people. When it comes to safety,
again, we pay a lot of money to have trained law enforcement
officers in our school. We--parents resoundingly do not want
armed guardians in our schools, and it costs money to have, you
know, trained law enforcement, so that takes money.
Mr. Frost. Explain the guardian thing. Everyone might not
be familiar.
Ms. Vanos. Okay. So, in Florida, you can either have a
trained law enforcement officer in your school. You are
required to have some kind of officer in your school. We
choose, again, people from our police departments, but you
could also arm someone else who has, you know, under those--
some certain number of hours of training. This could be,
really----
Mr. Frost. Arm a teacher?
Ms. Vanos. It could be a teacher. It could be anyone, but--
yes, it can be a teacher.
Mr. Frost. A teacher, a custodian?
Ms. Vanos. Exactly.
Mr. Frost. Or someone working in the office?
Ms. Vanos. Right, right. Or a community member volunteering
to do it. They have much less training.
So, unfortunately, we are having to look to other options
because we are so underfunded in our state. We spend an extra
$16 million every single year just to keep our students safe in
school.
Mr. Frost. Thank you. And it is obvious the Trump
Administration policies are putting our students in a worse
place. We heard the Superintendent talk about a lot of the
students dealing with food insecurity. Well, the Big Beautiful
Bill Act that was just passed, they gut nutritional assistance
for our students. It is going to gut the free school meals
program for many schools. That means more hungry students.
I agree with a lot of what you said on the trades. The
Department of Labor, unfortunately right now, is deprioritizing
important programs that help young people get into the trades.
It is Workforce Innovation, Opportunity Act, and Youth Build,
which I think Youth Build is one of the most important programs
our country has put forth to give our students the skills they
need to get into the trades.
So, I really appreciate your time, and I yield back.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Burlison. Yes.
Mr. Higgins. Request unanimous consent to enter into the
record H.R. 3345, a bill I introduced in May of this year that
abolishes a Department of Education and transitions the Federal
Department of Education Services to the sovereign states funded
through block grants at 50 percent of the 2019 pre-COVID
levels. Request unanimous consent.
Mr. Burlison. Without objection.
Mr. Burlison. I now recognize the gentlelady from Colorado,
Ms. Boebert, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our
witnesses for joining us here today.
Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the life and
legacy of my good friend, Charlie Kirk. He was absolutely
unafraid to say what millions of young Americans were starting
to realize, that college for many has become a costly scam that
leaves students in debt and unprepared for the real world that
they are entering into.
His advocacy helped spark a national conversation about
educational freedom and the need for alternatives. Today's
hearing continues that work by examining how school choice and
career focus pathways like apprenticeships can give students a
real opportunity without the baggage of broken institutions and
what they bring.
Ms. Greszler, do you agree with Charlie Kirk's statement
that college has become a multitrillion dollar scam for many of
the students who are left with debt and indoctrination and no
job after completing those courses?
Ms. Greszler. Yes, for many of them it has. That is because
we have a situation where the government is not creating a
level playing field, but instead putting hundreds of billions
of dollars a year into subsidies that the Federal Reserve has
said have done more to increase tuition than to have any
positive outcomes. And at the same time as doing that, they are
hampering apprenticeship programs.
When Congress created the National Apprenticeship Program,
it was two pages of legislation. There are hundreds of pages of
regulations that are imposed on anybody that wants to start an
apprenticeship program, and the Biden Administration proposed
hundreds more pages of regulations. They, fortunately, did not
finalize that. But we do not need a situation like this. We
need to remove the barriers and put equal playing field.
Ms. Boebert. Hundreds and hundreds of regulations for a
two-page bill for apprenticeships. That is interesting.
It seems like something that we need to address right away.
President Trump certainly has a record of deregulation.
So, are you concerned that nearly half of recent graduates
are underemployed, often working jobs that never required a
college degree in the first place?
Ms. Greszler. Absolutely, because the investment is not
paying off for them. Not only are taxpayer dollars being
wasted, but also those individuals are taking out tens of
thousands of dollars in debt and not being able to repay it
because we are lacking the market incentives to let them know
what is actually a positive return on your investment.
And so, if we could get rid of the barriers that are out
there, get rid of the subsidies, then more programs would be
forced to not only provide a education that has positive
returns, but also you would not need the Federal loans. Those
programs themselves could have income-driven repayment plans.
And so, they would be willing to partner with students and say,
you do not have to pay tuition upfront. We are going to partner
with you and we get a percentage of your earnings for a certain
number of years afterwards, and that can take the Federal
Government out of it completely.
Ms. Boebert. Interesting. And so, then it sounds like you
would agree that the Federal Government has made the student
debt crisis worse by prioritizing college loans over support
for apprenticeships and skilled trade?
Ms. Greszler. Absolutely.
Ms. Boebert. Yes. Thank you.
Mr. Mitchell, would you say that today's 4-year colleges
are more focused on pushing political agendas than preparing
our students for real-world, marketable skills?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes. Thank you for the question. I think,
unfortunately, what you see across the educational spectrum is
that much of education, whether or not that is K-12 or even at
the higher ed levels, it is not yielding the results for
students that they need to be productive citizens, right?
So, the NAEP scores that were just released--the National
Assessment of Educational Progress scores show that our
graduating seniors are performing academically at the lowest
levels in history. Now, many of those are matriculating still
into colleges, and we have got to ask the question, where did
all of that money get used? Because the dollars have been--you
know, have increased over time.
The academic results are decreasing over time. And as we
have heard from other members of this panel today, kids are
leaving with more debt than they are opportunity. And so, we
have got to ask some really hard questions, I think, about the
entire education system and how we give families and kids more
options.
Ms. Boebert. Yes. And would you say that many of today's
college graduates are more ideologically rigid than they are
job ready after leaving?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes. One of the things that is really
interesting, some research comes out of the University of
Arkansas, shows that students who participate in choice
programs when they are in K through 12 are actually more
civically engaged, right? They have greater exposure to civil
discourse, for instance, which we are in dire need of,
especially on campus.
And so, I am hopeful that, as we increase choice among K-12
students, that those young adults will be more prepared to
engage with the world, to engage even with others who have
different views from themselves in a civil manner.
Ms. Boebert. Thank you very much, Mr. Mitchell.
Dr. Hirschi, should more rural students be encouraged to
pursue apprenticeships or trade careers instead of taking on
debt for these 4-year degrees like they have been?
Dr. Hirschi. That is a hundred percent our mission. We feel
like it is one of the most critical needs for our rural kids to
be able to get exposed to real-world experiences and have those
internship opportunities so that they can get integrated right
in.
I mean, I had a kid come back who earned a welding
certificate, and he was making six figures in half a year. So,
there is definitely significant opportunity, which is why here
in our district we are really focusing on that internship work.
Mr. Burlison. The lady's time has expired.
Ms. Boebert. Oh, I am so sorry. I thought I had a minute
left, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for that.
Well, thank you all for being here.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Min for 5
minutes--actually, 6 minutes.
Mr. Min. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity
to discuss this very important issue.
I think we know that this is an important hearing, it
touches on a number of very important issues, including the
future health of our economy and how we can ensure high-paying
jobs for Americans as technology continues to accelerate as we
become an increasingly global economy.
I just want to say at the outset, however, that this
Committee continues and this Subcommittee continues to dodge
real oversight. We have let serious allegations of corruption,
lawlessness, and blatant violations of the Constitution by
Members of this Administration go completely unaddressed. My
phone lines, like every other Member I know, have been
inundated every day for months with concerns around the
activities of DOGE, ICE, impoundments, emoluments, and so much
more.
And these issues covered today, while important, are not
issues that the public is demanding oversight on right now. In
particular, this Committee keeps stonewalling a legitimate
investigation into Jeffrey Epstein, denying the survivor's
justice. Many of our Committee Members, despite having called
for greater transparency in public, have appeared to be afraid
to sign a Massie-Khanna Epstein discharge petition. It needs
one more vote to advance, and I would urge my colleagues on the
Oversight Committee who have not signed on that petition to
consider signing onto it. It is important.
This is a central issue in the minds of many Americans
right now. It is a dereliction of our constitutional duty to
not investigate this. It is a matter of very, very clear
importance, as we learned when we talked with the survivors the
other day.
On this topic, I want to start with a discussion of trades
and some of the things that are at issue here. I would say
with--first, maybe I will just ask a question here.
Ms. Vanos and Dr. Hirschi, do you believe every American
needs to attend a two-or 4-year college to succeed? Are there
alternative pathways that might allow them to achieve high-
paying jobs and pathways to middle class?
I will start with Ms. Vanos.
Ms. Vanos. Answer to your question, no. I do not think
every student needs to attend a 4-year--or to get a 4-year
degree, a 2-year degree. I think that pursuing the trades is a
great option for many, many students. And OCPS has--about 20
percent of our students take part in our college and career
technical education. They can pursue industry certifications
while they are also earning their high school diploma. So, I
think that is a great option for many of our students.
We also have an apprenticeship program for post-secondary
students where they take what they learned in high school and
then they are able to work in many different industries, be
able to get progressive, you know, hourly increases as they are
working, gaining more skills. So, I think it is a very
important part.
Mr. Min. And Dr. Hirschi?
Dr. Hirschi. No. Absolutely not. We feel like there are
multiple opportunities for kids to be successful in life,
multiple avenues, which is why in our district we focus on
making sure that every kid--we have a hundred percent of our
graduating seniors have a post-high school success plan to
ensure that they have a pathway and they know where they are
headed.
Mr. Min. I agree completely with what you have stated. And
I would just note in our district in California, we have a
number of different programs in our high schools. We have
encouraged our community colleges to consider expanding here.
There are going to be a lot of needs in the 21st century
for people who work with their hands, whether it is installing
solar panels, whether it is serving as sous-chefs, whether it
is repairing servers. There is a lot of work that we are going
to need, and these can potentially be high-paying jobs.
And the best part about a lot of these jobs is that they
are AI-resistant. No algorithm can install drywall or wire a
breaker box. In California, the demand for skilled trades and
labor is growing dramatically.
As an example of this, the California Employment
Development Corporation projects significant growth in the
construction sector between the years 2022 and 2032. California
is not alone in this regard, of course. Florida and Texas are
seeing similar trends and projections.
So, Mr. Dillender, I guess my question to you is, do you
anticipate that the surge in demand for skilled trades and
labor will continue as more Baby Boomers retire?
Mr. Dillender. Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Min. Fantastic. So, that, I guess, is why the Trump
Administration's April 23 executive order, preparing Americans
for high-paying skilled trade jobs of the future, troubles me.
I think it is directionally right. It encourages more skilled
trade and labor.
It is trying to increase apprenticeship programs, but the
cuts to Department of Labor staff and funding, the
consolidation of programs that it contains, I am told by many
of my trade unions it is going to be very, very problematic for
trying to achieve these goals.
Mr. Dillender, I just want to followup with you. What value
do you think high school partnerships offer to students who are
not planning to attend college?
Mr. Dillender. Look, high schools are kind of one of the
areas we really focus on, especially those schools that have
those trade programs that still exist. We partner with them
with either materials, even equipment to make sure that the
curriculum really is preparing them to come into the industry
and be successful.
And so, from the high schools, it is a great opportunity.
Frankly, I wish more had those type of trade programs in place.
But that is where the apprentice--our program comes in. If they
do not have that type of background, regardless, they can still
come in, and we can still provide that apprenticeship for them
and that career opportunity.
Mr. Min. Yes. I think for a generation or two now, we have
been telling students, young people, that they have to go to a
4-year college to have a chance at the middle class. I think
that is wrong. It is something that we need to invest in to
make sure there are pathways to the middle class for folks who
do not go to a 4-year college. And I fully support these types
of programs.
I want to switch topics here to the school choice question.
And so, I want to turn to Ms. Vanos and Dr. Hirschi again.
Do you believe that our public schools are adequately
funded? I will start with you, Dr. Hirschi.
Dr. Hirschi. I know that with our career center, we would
not have been able to do it without the support of state and
Federal funding. To bring these kind of experiences, it is
essential. And, fortunately, we had a state that has invested
in us. But there is no way we can provide these kind of quality
experiences without having adequate funding.
Mr. Min. Ms. Vanos?
Ms. Vanos. No. Our public schools are not fully funded. In
Florida, our teachers are paid 50th in the state. When it comes
to buying power of our district, we are about $1,374 behind
where we were in 2007. We are struggling, and we need help.
Mr. Min. The Century Foundation agrees with you. They
believe that the U.S. school system as an aggregate is
underfunded by $150 billion a year.
I will tell you, in California, even though we have made
dramatic strides in increasing funding, we are having a teacher
problem right now. We are having trouble retaining and
recruiting teachers. Class sizes are increasing to about 32
kids per classroom right now.
And we know--and I will just say as an editorial comment--
when I was a law school professor at UC Irvine, we are next
door to the education department. And I learned very clearly at
that point in time that two variables that matter most for
student outcomes. They are not about choice. They are about
class size and teacher quality.
Any policies we make that drain resources from our public
schools and impact teacher quality and class size are going to
be detrimental to the outcomes of students.
But with that, I yield back.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Min. I have three----
Mr. Min. I would like to ask unanimous consent to enter
into the record the following: A letter from Arc, a community
organization advocating for and serving people with
intellectual and developmental disabilities and their families;
a letter from Americans United for Separation of Church and
State; a letter from the National Parents Union; and testimony
from Christy Moreno, National Organizing Director for the
National Parents Union.
Mr. Burlison. Without objection.
Mr. Min. Thank you.
Mr. Burlison. I also have articles to submit to the record.
Article by Neetu Arnold, ``Blue States Used to Lead in
Education, Not Anymore''; a piece from the Journal of School
Choice, the ``Education Freedom and Student Achievement: Is
More School Choice Associated with Higher State-Level
Performance.'' And then finally, a statement that was submitted
by the Defending Education Group.
And with that, without objection, all Members have five
legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, this
Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:16 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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