[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
______
CATCH AND RELEASE, LOSE AND FORGET:
ADDRESSING THE CRISIS OF
UNACCOMPANIED ALIEN CHILDREN_PART I
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
JULY 23, 2025
__________
Serial No. 119-42
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Robert Garcia, California, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Gary Palmer, Alabama Ro Khanna, California
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Pete Sessions, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Andy Biggs, Arizona Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Maxwell Frost, Florida
Pat Fallon, Texas Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Byron Donalds, Florida Greg Casar, Texas
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Jasmine Crockett, Texas
William Timmons, South Carolina Emily Randall, Washington
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Yassamin Ansari, Arizona
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Wesley Bell, Missouri
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Lateefah Simon, California
Nick Langworthy, New York Dave Min, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Eli Crane, Arizona Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Brian Jack, Georgia Vacancy
John McGuire, Virginia
Brandon Gill, Texas
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
James Rust, Deputy Staff Director
Mitch Benzine, General Counsel
Alan Brubaker, Senior Advisor
Alex Rankin, Counsel
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement
Clay Higgins, Louisiana, Chairman
Paul Gosar, Arizona Summer Lee, Pennsylvania, Ranking
Andy Biggs, Arizona Member
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Wesley Bell, Missouri
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Lateefah Simon, California
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Ayanna Pressley, Massachussetts
Brian Jack, Georgia Vacancy
C O N T E N T S
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OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative, Chairman................. 1
Hon. Summer Lee, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member............. 2
WITNESSES
The Honorable Joseph Cuffari, Inspector General, U.S. Department
of Homeland Security
Oral Statement................................................... 5
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.
House of Representatives Document Repository at:
docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
* Article, POGO ``A Watchdog's War on Oversight''; submitted by
Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``DHS Watchdog Failed to Sound Alarm For
Months''; submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``DHS Watchdog Nixed Alert to Congress About
Purged January 6 Texts''; submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``DHS Watchdog Regularly Purges Texts'';
submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``DHS Watchdog Settles Whistleblower Reprisal
Case''; submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``Did Whistleblower Reprisal Help Set the
Stage''; submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``Pulling Punches--Trump-Appointed Watchdog
Suppressed WH Related Probes''; submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``Watchdog Repeatedly Misled Congress Federal
Probe Finds''; submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, POGO ``Whistleblower Reprisal Feared in Key Parts of
DHS Watchdog''; submitted by Rep. Bell.
* Article, NYT ``Alone and Exploited, Migrant Children Work
Brutal Jobs Across U.S.''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart ``Former Obama ICE Director, Homan's Right
that Keeping ICE Out of Jails Means More Arrests''; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Signal ``ICE Finds 10 Unaccompanied Migrant
Children at Marijuana Grow Sites''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, WUFT ``ICE Officers Granted Access to Unaccompanied
Minors Database''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller ``Tom Homan Details Search for 300k
Kids Biden Admin Lost''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, NYT ``U.S. Was Warned of Migrant Child Labor'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Signal ``What We Know About Unaccompanied
Children Arriving at Southern Border''; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Email Confirming Cuffari is Not Subject of Investigation -
CIGIE; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Email from IG Horowitz to Cuffari on Retirement; submitted by
Rep. Biggs.
* Letter, October 24, 2022, from Rep. Biggs to HHS; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Letter, December 6, 2019, from House and Senate
Congratulating Cuffari on Confirmation; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Letter, February 24, 2022, from HHS to Rep. Biggs; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Letter, March 3, 2021, to HHS; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Letter, May 31, 2013, from IG Horowitz to Cuffari; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Letter, July 15, 2022, to DHS and HHS; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Letter, September 10, 2021, from Rep. Biggs to HHS; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Notification of Personnel Action, Cuffari; submitted by Rep.
Biggs.
* Performance Report, Cuffari; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* FLE Epstein Mentions; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* 8 U.S. Code 1101(a)(3); submitted by Rep. Higgins.
* Report, Bureau of Justice Statistics, ``Parents in Prison and
Their Minor Children''; submitted by Rep. Higgins.
* ``Restoring Integrity and Efficiency to the Inspector General
Oversight Act of 2025''; submitted by Rep. Higgins.
* Article Boston Globe ``Families Separated due to ICE
Detentions in Massachusetts''; submitted by Rep. Pressley.
* Article Georgetown Law Library ``Raiding the Genome'';
submitted by Rep. Pressley.
* CIGIE ``Report on IG's Misconduct''; submitted by Rep. Simon.
The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.
CATCH AND RELEASE, LOSE AND FORGET:
ADDRESSING THE CRISIS OF
UNACCOMPANIED ALIEN CHILDREN--PART I
----------
WEDNESDAY, JULY 23, 2025
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:01 p.m.,
Room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Clay Higgins,
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Higgins, Biggs, Mace, Perry, Jack,
Lee, Garcia, Bell, Simon, and Pressley.
Mr. Higgins. The Committee on Oversight and Government
Reform Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement has convened. We
welcome our witness today, Mr. Joe Cuffari.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN CLAY HIGGINS REPRESENTATIVE FROM
LOUISIANA
Mr. Higgins. Today, the Subcommittee convenes to hear the
Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security
regarding his office's alarming report detailing the
Department's and the Department of Health and Human Services
failures to properly track, process, and safeguard nearly
448,000 unaccompanied alien children who entered the United
States illegally over the last four years. The Biden
Administration's open border policies led to severe
ramifications in which unaccompanied alien children were
destined to be trafficked and exploited.
President Trump has taken decisive action to close our
southern border, virtually eliminating the flood of illegal
immigrants entering our country. The executive has taken
action, and now it is up to us, the sitting Members of
Congress, to conduct essential oversight and codify security of
our border that cannot be exploited by future administrations.
Yet, the ramifications of the past four years continue to
unfold with lasting consequences and impact on hundreds of
thousands of young lives. The failures of the previous
Administration led to unaccompanied children who have been lost
in the system, the system that was established to protect them
and to protect the citizens of our country.
I have been meeting with Inspector General Cuffari for
years, and I have always been incensed at the failures and the
prior Administration's attitude toward ignoring the
responsibility to track and properly process tender age illegal
unaccompanied minors. We are talking about children of God that
have been waived into our country for 14 years and younger and
improperly processed into virtually unvetted sponsors destined
to be trafficked into some horror.
The findings of the report we are going to discuss today
are a double-edged sword. While some vulnerable children have
likely been trafficked, exploited, and subjected to forced
labor, the report also found that older teens had been in some
cases convicted of crimes in their country of origin and were
gang members.
While the hardworking men and women of U.S. Immigration and
Customs Enforcement (ICE) may want to do their best, the sheer
volume of cases enabled the prior Administration's open border
policies to simply overwhelm the system. The Inspector
General's report states that, as of September 2024, ICE has
just over 1,000 staff to monitor over 7.5 million non-detained
cases. It is literally impossible for ICE, with a 1,000 member
staff, to personally interact with these millions of tender age
illegal unaccompanied minors. The Inspector General shared with
my staff that almost 300,000 kids have unserved notices to
appear for their court date. Of that number, 58,000 are aged
twelve and under. I say again for Americans listening, 300,000
kids have failed to appear for court, 58,000 are twelve and
under. We have no idea in many cases where those kids are. We
are going to talk about that today with IG Cuffari.
I am glad that ICE under the Trump Administration has
accepted all of the IG's recommendations contained in their
report. Inspector General Cuffari is an honorable man, and I
know him personally to be incredibly focused on identifying,
locating, and rescuing these children. I look forward to his
testimony as we continue to examine this issue to ensure these
children are properly identified, cared for, and protected.
I recognize my colleague, Ms. Lee, the Ranking Member, for
5 minutes or the time she may consume for her opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER SUMMER LEE REPRESENTATIVE
FROM PENNSYLVANIA
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Over the last six months, President Trump, Kristi Noem, and
Stephen Miller have unleashed a brutal, reckless, and lawless
regime that targets innocent members of our communities,
parents dropping off their kids at the school or attending
church, legal immigrants who have been welcome in this country
for decades, international students, and even children who are
U.S. citizens. They are behaving without humanity, justice, or
decency.
Children are increasingly the target of President Trump's
anti-immigrant crusades. The Department of Homeland Security
(DHS) has failed to be transparent and publish any data since
January. But looking at the court cases has shown that children
have been increasingly and disproportionately marked for
deportation by Donald Trump. Over 53,000 children have been
ordered for deportation since the start of this Administration.
These are mostly elementary school kids or younger. How often
the court cases end in deportations has also climbed under
Trump, especially for kids. Over 75 percent of children eleven
or younger are now being ordered for deportation as a result of
their immigration court proceedings. Are these little kids the
dangerous criminals Trump vowed to go after?
President Trump is also kidnapping and illegally removing
U.S. citizens, including multiple children with cancer. We are
talking about unprecedented actions without due process against
U.S. citizens. The Trump Administration removed one 10-year-old
girl, a U.S. citizen, who was recovering from brain cancer with
her parents, even though she needed medical care. Another 4-
year-old boy was illegally removed, also a U.S. citizen, with a
rare form of cancer. The judge in that case said the Trump
Administration had ``just deported a U.S. citizen with no
meaningful process.''
Over 500 immigrant children have been removed from their
families and homes and thrown into government custody. Let us
call this what it is. Just like his first time as President,
Donald Trump and Stephen Miller are separating kids from their
parents. It is unconscionable.
And as the Trump Administration detains more human beings,
detention facilities are becoming even more overcrowded and
dangerous. The conditions that children and innocent people are
being held have been called unsanitary and inhumane. The
government has some bare minimum standards in place for
children in government custody, but Trump has attempted to roll
those protections back or simply violated them, all while
denying Members of Congress their lawful ability to conduct
oversight at these facilities.
Republicans are complicit in this. And increasingly,
children are being held in ICE facilities like Alligator
Alcatraz or newly reopened family detention centers like the
one in Dilley, Texas. This Administration is using every
resource at its disposal to target innocent people for
kidnapping and disappearance. And we call it that because a
deportation implies that you have gone through some process,
implies that you are following some standard that is set in
U.S. law, particularly due process.
We know that this Administration is even using data
collected to identify sponsors for unaccompanied children to
target those same sponsors, often the parents or other family
members for deportation, putting the very people who are able
to help these kids who are in danger.
These are unspeakable injustices that demand oversight, and
we have a witness here today who bears the responsibility of
conducting such oversight. Mr. Cuffari is the Inspector General
who is supposed to be rooting out misconduct at the Department
of Homeland Security. Instead, he is working with Republicans
to twist the facts so people ignore the cages and the kids with
cancer and other despicable actions.
He himself is guilty of committing serious misconduct
against the American people. This included spending taxpayer
money, retaliating against whistleblowers who called him out
for delaying a report about Donald Trump actually losing
children--this was when Trump's first Administration separated
immigrant kids from their parents and then failed to keep track
of them. As many as 1,360 of those kids were never reunited
with their parents. Inspector General Cuffari has made clear
that he is interested in protecting Donald Trump, not lost
children, and that he has no problem lying to Congress to
further his goals. On this issue he has absolutely zero
credibility.
So, when the Trump Administration creates a culture of
terror in which children are afraid to go to school or children
are afraid to speak to authorities for fear that they or
someone they love will be snatched and deported, children
suffer. These policies leave children at greater risk of
trafficking and exploitation.
I expect my Republican colleagues to care about this
because their constituents certainly care about child sex
trafficking, whether it is through the immigration system like
this hearing alleges or by a U.S. citizen facilitating other
powerful U.S. citizens. It is time for them to prove it. Right
now, Speaker Johnson is helping Donald Trump block the release
of all the files relating to child sex trafficker Jeffrey
Epstein.
If you want to take a stand against child trafficking, let
us do it together. When powerful people exploit children, they
must be held accountable for their actions. And if they try to
mislead the public and hide evidence, we cannot let them get
away with it. So, we cannot allow individuals, especially those
at the highest level of our government, to protect child sex
traffickers.
So, today, that is why I will be offering a motion to
subpoena the Department of Justice to release the Epstein
files. Numerous members of this Committee and this Subcommittee
have called for answers and transparency, so let us do
something about it. Rep. Biggs has said, ``We want to get to
the bottom of it.'' Rep. Mace has stated, ``I believe we need
answers on Epstein. If 1,000 kids were trafficked, how is there
only one accomplice?'' Rep. Perry has written to Pam Bondi on
Epstein saying, ``The American people deserve answers and
justice, particularly in matters involving grave allegations of
criminality and misconduct by influential figures.'' Rep.
Boebert said, ``We deserve the truth about the Epstein files.''
Yesterday, our Government Operations Subcommittee approved
the motion directing Chairman Comer to subpoena Ghislaine
Maxwell to appear for a deposition before this Committee. But
Ms. Maxwell is currently serving a 20-year Federal prison
sentence for her role in sex-trafficking children with Jeffrey
Epstein. She could have a motivation to protect powerful people
to get a lighter sentence. We need the actual Epstein files to
get the full truth. So, I hope my Republican colleagues will
join me in supporting a motion to subpoena the Department of
Justice to release the Epstein files.
With that, pursuant to clause 2(k)(6) of House Rule XI, I
move that the Subcommittee issue a subpoena to the Department
of Justice for the full, complete, unredacted Epstein files to
be delivered concurrently to the Majority and Minority of the
Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement of the Committee of the
Oversight and Government Reform.
Mr. Higgins. The Ranking Member has introduced a motion.
The Committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end
of today's hearing.
The Committee will now proceed with today's hearing.
I thank the honorable Joe Cuffari for joining us today. Let
me introduce him.
Before I introduce Mr. Cuffari, for the record, without
objection, Representative Crane of Arizona is waived onto the
Subcommittee for the purpose of questioning the witnesses at
today's Subcommittee hearing. Without objection.
Introducing our witness today, Joseph V. Cuffari was
confirmed by the U.S. Senate as the Department of Homeland
Security Inspector General on July 25, 2019. Dr. Cuffari
previously served as a policy advisor for military and veterans
affairs for Governor Doug Ducey of Arizona and previously for
Governor Jan Brewer. He served more than 40 years in the United
States Air Force on active duty in the Reserves and in the
Arizona National Guard. He began his military service after
graduating from high school and enlisted in the United States
Air Force in 1977.
He served in a variety of leadership positions with the Air
Force Office of Special Investigations, as well as with the
Department of Defense Office of Inspector General. He was a
commander in the Air Force Office of Inspector Commanders with
MacDill Air Force Base in Florida; England Air Force Base,
Louisiana; Naples, Italy; and with North Atlantic Treaty
Organization.
In 1989, he received the AFOSI Outstanding Officer of the
Year Award.
He also served for more than 20 years in the Department of
Justice in a multitude of roles dating back to 1993. In 2013,
he retired from his position as Assistant Special Agent in
Charge for the Office of the Inspector General in Tucson,
Arizona. In other capacities, he has augmented the U.S. Senate
and the House Intelligence Committee and the DOJ Office of
Overseas Prosecutorial Development.
Dr. Cuffari earned a Ph.D. in management in 2002, an MA in
management in 1995, and a bachelor of science in business
administration and management information systems in 1984. And
today, he sits before us. I welcome Inspector General Cuffari
to testify before us today.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witness will please
stand and raise his right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. Let the record show that the witness answered
in the affirmative.
Thank you. You may take your seat, Inspector General
Cuffari.
I recognize the Inspector General for 5 minutes to
summarize his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF JOSEPH CUFFARI, INSPECTOR GENERAL
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Mr. Cuffari. Thank you, Chairman Higgins, Ranking Member
Lee, and Ranking Member Garcia. Members of the Subcommittee,
thank you for inviting me here today to discuss my office's
recent audit report entitled ``ICE Cannot Effectively Monitor
the Location and Status of All Unaccompanied Alien Children
After Federal Custody.''
DHS plays a critical role in administering and enforcing
our national immigration laws. Among the most vulnerable
populations DHS encounters are unaccompanied alien children
referred to as UACs. A UAC is a person as to when they entered
the country and were encountered by DHS they have no lawful
immigration status in the United States. They have not attained
18 years of age and has no parent or legal guardian in the
country available to provide care and physical custody.
Each year, thousands of UACs have entered the United States
and are placed into Federal custody. The Federal Government has
a responsibility not just for enforcing immigration laws, but
for ensuring the safety and welfare of these at-risk children.
While ICE's immigration enforcement priorities typically weigh
the risk an alien poses to the public, but with UACs, the
agency must also ensure a vulnerable child does not become the
victim of trafficking or otherwise exploitation.
Our audit revealed significant gaps in how ICE monitors and
manages the cases of UACs once they are released from Federal
custody. The lack of reliable location data, persistent delays
in issuing notices to appear, and limited interagency
cooperation has led to potentially tens of thousands of
children effectively disappearing from DHS's oversight. This is
not simply an administrative or paperwork shortcoming. It is a
systemic breakdown that carries real risk to the children
themselves, to the integrity of the immigration system, and to
the public trust in our immigration system and law enforcement
institutions.
In 2023, my office initiated this audit after two key
events. The first was a change in a 2021 memorandum of
agreement between DHS and the Department of Health and Human
Services. Specifically, the parties removed the requirement for
HHS Office of Refugee Resettlement to provide ICE with
biographic and biometric information and all potential sponsors
and adult members of that household, which were then used for
vetting. The second was significant media reporting involving
UACs, which were potentially in dangerous conditions following
their placement into a sponsor's care by HHS.
Early into the audit, it became clear that the uncertainty
surrounding the whereabouts of such a large number of UACs
warranted a management alert to flag this matter for the
Department of Homeland Security, as well as Congress, and we
issued that in August 2024.
In our final report, which was published in March of this
year, my team found that between fiscal years 2019 and 2023,
ICE did not effectively monitor the location and status of all
UACs once released or transferred to HHS custody. In that time,
ICE transferred more than 448,000 UACs to HHS, most of whom
were released as sponsors. Of that population, ICE did not
issue more than 233,000 notices to appear to the UACs to
generate an assignment in their immigration court. Our auditors
discovered that more than 31,000 releases' addresses of
sponsors were blank, undeliverable, or missing apartment
numbers. We also learned more than 43,000 UACs who were served
with notices to appear, failed to actually appear for their
scheduled court date.
As I stated at the beginning of my testimony, ICE's posture
for monitoring UACs was insufficient. The shortcomings leave
children vulnerable to exploitation, trafficking, forced labor,
or involvement in criminal activities. Without sustained data-
sharing coordination at the Federal level and staffing and
overall policy guidance to DHS, they will not be able to
guarantee that UACs are safeguarded from harm while in the
United States. We made six recommendations to improve ICE's
monitoring, all of which they accepted.
In closing, thank you for the opportunity to testify. I
look forward to answering your questions.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Dr. Cuffari, for being here. I
recognize myself for 5 minutes for questioning.
Inspector General Cuffari, I would like to clarify for the
record that you and I have been working together since 2019
pretty closely, have we not?
Mr. Cuffari. Yes, sir.
Mr. Higgins. We have had many, many telephone
conversations. And back during the horrible COVID era, we had
virtual meetings, and we have had many personal meetings, have
we not, good sir?
Mr. Cuffari. Yes, sir.
Mr. Higgins. All right. So, let me clarify for the American
people watching that in all of my interactions with the Federal
Government--I have had hundreds and hundreds of interactions
with men and women that were embedded and serving within the
executive branch. It is a very small handful of those
individuals that I came to understand and know I could have
absolute confidence in, and at the top of that list is Joe
Cuffari. He was always accessible and honest and candid, yet
careful to protect the integrity of his office because, through
the years, I asked him some very challenging questions, and Joe
Cuffari was squared away.
He is here today, no doubt he is going to face some kind of
fire, but I am telling America, and Americans can tell when a
man is telling them the truth. Joe Cuffari is squared away, and
he is an honest and dedicated man.
So, when I ask you, Inspector General Cuffari, are you
personally invested in helping the Federal Government identify,
locate, and rescue these scores of thousands, hundreds of
thousands of missing tender age children in our country?
Mr. Cuffari. I am, both as an adult father, as well as a
grandfather.
Mr. Higgins. And will you share with the Committee what
that progress looks like regarding, say, the 200,000 young
teenagers that have been identified and how the 50,000 of those
were chosen to go after? Will you explain that process to us?
Mr. Cuffari. Chairman, from what we received in a briefing
from ICE, they have formed a team of ICE agents, HSI, Homeland
Security investigators, plus the----
Mr. Higgins. Pardon me, but that team is under the Trump
Administration?
Mr. Cuffari. Yes, sir, it was formed----
Mr. Higgins. Okay. Continue, please.
Mr. Cuffari. It was formed in February of this year----
Mr. Higgins. Thank you.
Mr. Cuffari [continuing]. 2025, by Secretary Noem. She
designated this unit to go out and identify, locate, and
provide health and welfare checks on unaccompanied alien
children who had been transferred from DHS custody to HHS. So,
a necessary component of that was for ICE and HHS to work
together, which we understand they are.
They are also working with other Federal law enforcement
agencies like the FBI and the U.S. Marshals Service to go out,
and they are selecting a group of 200,000, round numbers, of
unaccompanied alien children. They have gone to around 50,000
homes.
Mr. Higgins. And how has that subset--with 50,000 doors
knocked on--identified and knocked on? How was that 50,000
subset targeted out of the 200,000 initial selection?
Mr. Cuffari. Those were identified by HHS as households
where a sponsor had two or more unaccompanied alien children
designated to that address.
Mr. Higgins. So, listen to that, America. They identified
easily 200,000 kids that were at risk, had disappeared into the
system. Of those under the Trump Administration, they have
identified 50,000. Why? Because the 50,000 had multiple--
sponsors had multiple kids coming to the same address. So, out
of those 50,000, what happened, Joe?
Mr. Cuffari. They were able to, from what we understand,
they were able to identify and physically locate 12,000
unaccompanied alien children.
Mr. Higgins. And how many sponsors were arrested?
Mr. Cuffari. The number that we were given is about 400.
Mr. Higgins. About 400. You see where this is going,
America?
Mr. Cuffari, thank you for your testimony. Unfortunately,
my time has expired, and I am happy to recognize the Ranking
Member, Ms. Lee, for 5 minutes for questioning.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
An appreciation of the hearing that we are having today
about such an important topic as child sexual-trafficking and
sexual abuse,--I look forward to our colleagues joining us, of
course, in releasing the Epstein files and putting their money
where their mouth is.
In the meantime, I want to say that children, especially
unaccompanied ones entering this country alone and scared,
deserve our utmost attention and oversight. In normal times,
inspectors general act as the first line of defense, ensuring
that agencies follow the law and act in the public interest.
They are fiercely independent, or they should be fiercely
independent. They serve no Democratic or Republican
administration, and Presidents are careful not to interfere
with their work.
But these are not normal times. And the Trump
Administration has now unlawfully fired or demoted 20
inspectors general across the government. Oddly enough, though,
I noticed that he left you in place. Inspector General Cuffari,
that strikes me as a bit suspicious, given that this past
October, the Council of the Inspectors General on Integrity and
Efficiency released a 1,002-page report from its Integrity
Committee on your repeated and well-documented misconduct.
These are the inspectors of the inspectors general. Based on
the findings of this report, which included recommending
discipline up to and including your removal from office, I have
a lot of questions about whether we can trust you to conduct
independent oversight.
Inspector General Cuffari, yes or no, do you agree that it
is important for inspectors general to tell Congress the truth?
Mr. Cuffari. Absolutely.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. Yes or no, are you aware this report by
the Council of Inspectors General on Integrity and Efficiency
found you ``engaged in conduct undermining the independence of
integrity reasonably expected of your position''?
Mr. Cuffari. I understand that is what they wrote.
Ms. Lee. So, yes. Thank you. Yes or no, are you aware this
report found you expended nearly $1.4 million in taxpayers'
funds to hire a private law firm to investigate three former
senior members of your staff, most likely for your ``personal
interest and in order to retaliate'' against them?
Mr. Cuffari. Not for my personal interest, Ranking Member.
Ms. Lee. Are you aware that they found that in their
report?
Mr. Cuffari. That is what they wrote.
Ms. Lee. So, yes, you are. Thank you. Yes or no, are you
aware this report found that the Federal Government had to
spend an additional $1.17 million in taxpayer money to settle
the resulting retaliation case? Yes or no?
Mr. Cuffari. No.
Ms. Lee. You are not aware. Well, I am happy to have made
you aware. Thank you.
Are you aware this report concluded that you ``abused your
authority'' in the exercise of your official duties and engaged
in ``a gross waste of taxpayer funds''? Yes or no?
Mr. Cuffari. Just so I can clarify the issue, the question
that you raised, that was an MSPB, Merit Systems Promotion
Board, hearing that we made a settlement with a litigant.
Ms. Lee. So, you are aware of the--you are going back to
the $1.17 million in taxpayer dollars that you were indeed
aware of?
Mr. Cuffari. Correct.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. Yes or no, are you aware that the
Integrity Committee found three additional issues worth
investigating, but they chose to move forward because they had
enough evidence to recommend your removal?
Mr. Cuffari. That is what they wrote.
Ms. Lee. So, yes. The inspectors general oversight body has
already determined that this man has repeatedly lied to
Congress, but today, we are supposed to trust him as an
independent, objective, and forthcoming witness. This is a fox
guarding the hen house.
Children, especially unaccompanied immigrant children, need
our help. They need someone who can speak truth to power and
look out for them. Unfortunately, Inspector General Cuffari is
not that person, and we are left to wonder if there is any real
oversight going on at the Department of Homeland Security.
According to DHS employees--and they have rushed to round
up as many people as possible--they have abandoned other
critical duties like fighting drug-trafficking, human-
trafficking, and child exploitation. How is that good for
children? How is that good for this country? In a time when
mass ICE agents patrol the streets snatching up anyone they
think looks like an undocumented immigrant, and when Americans'
private data is being seized for unprecedented surveillance, we
desperately need oversight. Instead, we have a corrupt and
incompetent inspector general at DHS.
I yield back.
Mr. Higgins. The gentlelady yields.
The gentleman is recognized. Mr. Biggs seeks recognition.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent
to enter the following documents into the record related to a
smear campaign of Mr. Cuffari's character and career, which we
just heard from the other side.
I will say that I do trust Mr. Cuffari. I have read his
report, and he is very interested in saving and protecting
victims of human-trafficking.
So, the first one, Mr. Chairman, is this: an email from the
Council on Inspectors General on Integrity and Efficiency
Assistant Counsel Bryce Harrison confirming that Mr. Cuffari is
not under investigation by CIGIE.
A letter from former Department of Justice Inspector
General Michael Horowitz thanking Mr. Cuffari for his excellent
service to the DOJ IG's office.
An email from IG Horowitz again thanking Mr. Cuffari for
his outstanding contributions to the DOJ IG office.
A letter signed by the Chairmen and Ranking Members of the
House and Senate Homeland Security Committees congratulating
Mr. Cuffari on his unanimous confirmation and calling on him to
take decisive action to turn around a dysfunctional and
demoralized IG office.
Number five, Mr. Cuffari's performance report praising him
as an exemplary airman and noting his mentoring of future
leaders and the inventor of smart approaches to a critical
review of sexual assault.
Number six, Mr. Cuffari's personnel action report
confirming voluntary retirement from DOJ IG refuting reports of
his firing.
What I cannot enter into the record is any actions taken by
the Biden Administration against Mr. Cuffari related to a CIGIE
complaint because, despite receiving the report as his
appointing official, President Biden declined to take any
action against Mr. Cuffari, thus closing the matter without
action.
I would ask that those be admitted through unanimous
consent, sir.
Mr. Higgins. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Perry, the gentleman is recognized for 5
minutes for questioning.
Mr. Perry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Cuffari, thanks for being here. And I associate myself
with the comments regarding your career with Representative
Biggs and the Chairman himself. Thank you for what you do.
The numbers in this subject are staggering, 448,000 UACs
transferred to HHS of which 31,000 sponsors have sponsor
addresses that are blank, undeliverable, missing. It is 31,000
kids, at least, no clue where they are. We have reports of UACs
being placed in sponsors in gang-controlled areas, run-down
apartment complexes, dilapidated motels, 14,500 alone were
released to unrelated sponsors, unrelated meaning they did not
have family members. I mean, that is 14,500 souls.
Secretary Mayorkas in 2021 issued a memorandum that
deprioritized UAC cases, directing Federal officials to focus
enforcement resources on other categories of removable aliens.
Mr. Cuffari, the DHS Office of Inspector General
investigators have statutory law enforcement authority,
including the power to make arrests, execute warrants, and
carry firearms. I just wonder at what point, if there is a
point, did the Secretary's actions reach the level of child
endangerment, child abandonment, child abuse? Did anybody in
your office ever investigate or consider investigating
Secretary Mayorkas for criminal activity in this regard?
Mr. Cuffari. Not to my knowledge, Mr. Perry.
Mr. Perry. What would it take? Is there anything that it
would take? At what level--I mean, these are so-called
policies, but the result of which--if you as a parent, as a
guardian, took a child and abandoned it on the street--these
are thousands in any case that were abandoned somewhere by
policy. If you did that as an individual, you would likely be
charged with child endangerment. And I know it is a tough call
here because these are policies. Does the Office of Inspector
General (OIG) have the authority to make that call?
Mr. Cuffari. The OIG has the authority to do administrative
as well as criminal investigations of departmental employees or
contractors. The U.S. Attorney, the Department of Justice,
would be the entity that would decide whether those actions
were a criminal violation or prosecutable.
Mr. Perry. Did you or anybody in your office ever consider
a criminal referral in these cases? I know that the report, I
think, came out in March 2025 regarding most of this, but
obviously, the investigation was ongoing throughout the Biden
Administration. Was there ever a consideration, a discussion
whatsoever regarding the Secretary or those carrying out the
policies that led to 448,000 unaccompanied minors that would be
considered criminal activity relating to child endangerment?
Mr. Cuffari. Not to our knowledge. Not to my knowledge, Mr.
Perry.
Mr. Perry. Looking back, I mean, is that something that
should have been considered? Because it is policy, does that
mean it is okay, or that it is something that can never be
considered?
Mr. Cuffari. If it is policy, the Department of Homeland
Security IG's Office policy is not to look into policies or to
charge individuals with violations of policies that are
established by the Department.
Mr. Perry. Well, I would say this. Look, we appreciate your
service, and we know you were fighting for every child that was
out there, but I think that these activities do rise to the
level of at least consideration of criminal activity because
the results lead--the actions of the policy led to the results
of having these children, of which now many thousands are
literally unfindable and likely in the hands of traffickers and
have been since they have been here, those were policies that
were orchestrated by design, by individuals, primarily the
Secretary of Homeland Security, and gleaned these results. And
there has been no accountability. And without criminal
referrals, unfortunately, there is likely never to be
appropriate accountability.
With that, Mr. Chairman, for the time being, I yield.
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman yields.
Mr. Bell is recognized for 5 minutes for questioning.
A correction, Ms. Simon is recognized for 5 minutes for
questioning.
Ms. Simon. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
And I am glad we are having this conversation. For
approximately 30 years, I have been working on behalf of young,
trafficked children in the East Bay, and I cannot tell you how
timely this conversation is for the millions of children, I do
not care what administration. What they have had to suffer
because, for folks, if you have worked with trafficked
children, if you have seen the detention facilities that they
are warehoused in in this country, both in the Federal and
county level, you would be shocked. And so, I would actually
invite Members of this Committee, of this Subcommittee, we
should go see, we should hands-on the child detention
facilities of the Federal Government are operating. They are
heinous.
So, I am happy to have this conversation, and I know, you
know, for many reasons why I came to Congress, but one of them
was to fight for the health and safety and the well-being of
our families, our communities, and our children. I am clearly
not alone in this fight.
And when the Trump Administration abruptly terminated
funding for legal services for unaccompanied children, yes,
many of them trafficked, California's Attorney General, Rob
Bonta, led 20 attorneys general in challenging that decision.
President Trump is forcing toddlers--many have seen it--
toddlers, many of which who do not speak English, to represent
themselves in immigration court. I want to thank Attorney
General Rob Bonta for his leadership. California has a strong
intent and interest in protecting the legal rights of
unaccompanied children--children--over 10,800 children or 11
percent of all unaccompanied minors were released to sponsors
in the State of California, making it the highest after Texas.
Cutting resources to ensure that migrant children have access
to legal services is just one way that this Administration is
actively punishing and hurting children in their relentless and
inhumane immigration agenda that criminalizes and dehumanizes
asylum seekers.
In May 2025, the Trump Administration had filed a motion to
completely terminate a nearly 30-year agreement which dictates
the basic human rights of children, migrant children,
trafficked children, in detention, terminated that agreement.
The Flores agreement limits how long migrant children can be
detained, and it also requires that government provide children
with adequate food--seems like the floor, right--adequate food,
adequate water, and other necessities like clean clothing and
underwear. This Administration terminated that agreement.
The Trump Administration is also working to end the
requirement for those basic human rights of children who are
seeking asylum. These children are whom some would consider the
most vulnerable and at risk in our country. The Administration
also wants to keep migrant children in custody--in custody.
These children are shackled. These children are shackled. In
custody longer, which only compounds the physical and mental
health and long-term traumas and harms and will exacerbate
their pre-existing conditions to the trauma of their detention
by our government.
These harms to both unaccompanied children and families in
detention are not only heartbreaking, they are countless. ICE
is detaining children with cancer and pregnant women--that is
fact--without adequate medical care or due process. There are
migrant detainees being held without access to natural light or
recreation at Dilley Family Detention Center, which is a
warehouse for people in the great State of Texas. There is a
lack of clean water for children, and children are not eating.
And the Department of Homeland Security revoked humanitarian
parole for a 4-year-old baby girl receiving care for a life-
threatening condition.
I can go on and on. I can go on and on, but the reality is
that my community and communities across the Nation, we are not
this cruel. I do not care how you pray or how you vote. These
are facts. That is not hyperbole. Children of Abraham, we got
to look at the facts. We are detaining, warehousing, and
denying unaccompanied children who are seeking asylum, not only
due process, but access to medical care, access to clean
clothes, access to drinking water, access to attorneys.
I will yield back.
Mr. Higgins. The gentlelady yields.
Mr. Biggs, the gentleman from Arizona, is recognized for
questioning.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And so much of what I just heard is untrue, but what I
would say too is, you know, when you cast aspersions about the
Inspector General Cuffari, I wonder, did you read the report
that he submitted for this? Did you read the report that we are
discussing today?
Mr. Cuffari. I did.
Mr. Biggs. No, I know you did. I wonder about the people
who are telling lies about you, whether they did. And then they
say, we cannot believe a thing you said. Well, everything you
said undermines what I think everybody on this committee should
be worried about, and that is this horrible scourge of trying
to find these kids who were brought in and let in. I get, you
know, just absolutely mind-blown by people making these
assertions.
But have you been down to the border? I have been down to
the border many times. I know you have, Mr. Cuffari.
Ms. Simon. I have as well.
Mr. Biggs. And have you brought people to the border? Have
you interviewed people that are in detention? Have you
interviewed children who come across without parents?
This government, under Joe Biden--under Joe Biden--received
hundreds of thousands of unaccompanied children. Is that fair
to say, Mr. Cuffari?
Mr. Cuffari. So, the number is around 448,000.
Mr. Biggs. And of those, do we know where all those 448,000
unaccompanied children are?
Mr. Cuffari. As of the date of the report, we did not. Like
I mentioned, ICE and HHS are now going out in tandem to go and
identify where these children are located.
Mr. Biggs. Are you familiar with the case in Orlando,
Florida, where 22 children at one time or another were placed
with a strip club?
Mr. Cuffari. That is a new one.
Mr. Biggs. Yes. Well, that happened. That happened. And you
know what? That is not the only time that type of thing
happened. Multiple children going to the same address, which
turned out to be a vacant address. Is that right?
Mr. Cuffari. That is correct. There was one instance where
our audit team--and I have some of those senior members here
with me today--went physically out to look at addresses. There
was one address where 35 unaccompanied alien children were
designated to be, and it was a non-existing address.
Mr. Biggs. Were there records kept about the vetting of the
sponsors to where these children were being placed under the
Biden Administration?
Mr. Cuffari. The change in the Memorandum of Understanding
(MOU) between HHS and DHS in the summer of 2021 removed the
requirement for DHS to do the vetting. That vetting then fell
on HHS to do, but it was only for the adult sponsor, not for
all the individuals in the home.
Mr. Biggs. Are you referring to the Mayorkas 2021 memo that
deprioritized unaccompanied children cases, labeling them non-
criminal?
Mr. Cuffari. I think that he issued that memorandum in the
fall of 2021. This is a change in an MOU that happened in the
summer of 2021 that predated that.
Mr. Biggs. Okay. So, Mr. Perry brought up offenses against
children, and it does not take much to go to 18 USC section
2251 and then also the aid-and-abet statutes to realize that
the policies, when you are labeling what is happening, the
unaccompanied children as non-criminal, if you have ever stood
there and watched a 3-year-old and a 5-year-old come over in a
group put together by a coyote with a 10-year-old not related
to those two younger kids, bringing them across, you would have
to say there is some criminal conduct there. There is
absolutely abuse of children going on there. That is what was
going on wildly, often, under the previous Administration.
And I am sorry that you had to endure the BS that you have
had to today. Your report is right, and I hope my colleagues
read that report and tell me where any of it is untrue.
And I will yield the balance, but I do have some UCs after
you are done.
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman yields the balance.
I would just like to point out to my colleagues that at any
given time in American prisons, there are 750,000 to 850,000
incarcerated Americans that are parents of minor children. So,
when my colleagues discuss our efforts to keep families
together during the deportation process, that is important. The
gentleman yields.
Mr. Biggs. I have some UCs.
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman has unanimous consent.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. This is a letter to Assistant
Secretary Contreras from October 24, 2022. Another one, July
15, 2022, to Secretary Mayorkas and Secretary Becerra, signed
by many Members of Congress. Another to Secretary Becerra,
dated September 10, 2021. Another one to Secretary Mayorkas,
dated March 3, 2021. Another to ORR and the Administration for
Children and Families, dated February 24, 2022, all asking
questions about where these children were and the policies.
Another is an article entitled, ``Tom Homan details search for
300,000 kids the Biden administration lost.'' This is another
one from July 14. ``ICE finds 10 unaccompanied migrant children
at marijuana growth sites.'' Another one dated February 14 this
year, ``ICE officers granted access to unaccompanied minors
data base.'' Another one from the New York Times, stating,
``Alone and exploited migrant children work brutal jobs across
the U.S.'' dated February 25, 2023. Another one from April 17,
2023, from the New York Times, ``U.S. was warned of migrant
child labor but `didn't want to hear it.' ''. And another one
from May 8, 2023, ``What we know about unaccompanied children
arriving at the southern border.''
Mr. Higgins. Without objection, so entered into the record.
And the Chair recognizes Mr. Bell for 5 minutes for
questions.
Mr. Bell. Mr. Chair, before my time, I have some unanimous
consents.
Mr. Higgins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bell. With unanimous consent, I would like to enter the
following articles regarding Inspector General Cuffari's
conduct from the Project on Government Oversight into the
record. One is dated October 3, 2024, ``DHS Watchdog Repeatedly
Misled Congress.'' One is dated October 2, 2024, ``A Watchdog's
War on Oversight.'' One is dated April 20, 2021, ``Pulling
Punches: Trump-Appointed Watchdog Suppressed White House-
Related Probes.'' There is an article on July 1, 2021, ``The
Whistleblower Reprisal Helps Set the Stage for a January 6
Intelligence Failure.'' On July 21, 2022, an article entitled
``DHS Watchdog Failed to Sound Alarm for Months on Secret
Service's Purged January 6 Texts.'' On August 11, 2022, ``DHS
Watchdog Nixed Alert to Congress about Purged January 6 Texts,
New Docs Show.'' On March 8, 2023, ``Whistleblower Reprisal
Feared in Key Parts of DHS Watchdog.'' On January 6, 2023,
``DHS Watchdog Regularly Purges Texts on Government Phone
Despite Ongoing Investigation.'' And last, on July 27, 2023,
``DHS Watchdog Settles Whistleblower Reprisal Case for $1.17
million.''
Ms. Simon. Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into
unanimous consent.
Mr. Higgins. For Mr. Bell, entered without objection.
Ms. Simon is recognized.
Ms. Simon. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I ask for unanimous consent to enter into the record the
Council of the Inspectors General on Integrity and Efficiency's
1,000-page report on the Inspector General's misconduct.
Mr. Higgins. Without objection.
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair, unanimous consent, please.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Garcia is recognized.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to submit for unanimous consent--I just want to
introduce this document into the record listing all the calls
to release the Epstein files from Members of this Committee.
Mr. Higgins. Would you mind repeating your request to
enter, sir, the title of your entry?
Mr. Garcia. The title is--this is a document into the
record listing the Members of this Committee and their
individual calls to release the Epstein files.
Mr. Higgins. Sir, without objection.
Mr. Bell is recognized for questioning.
Mr. Bell. Thank you, Mr. Chair, Ranking Member, and our
witness for being here today.
Just for housekeeping, this report, which I did look at,
was starting from a time period in 2019, correct?
Mr. Cuffari. Fiscal year 2019 to 2023.
Mr. Bell. And who was the President in 2019?
Mr. Cuffari. 2019 was President Trump.
Mr. Bell. And who appointed you, Mr. Cuffari?
Mr. Cuffari. President Trump.
Mr. Bell. Mr. Cuffari, can you tell me which populations
are at the highest risk of being victims of human trafficking
or sexual exploitation?
Mr. Cuffari. Those who are not put--those who the Federal
Government track.
Mr. Bell. Let me chime in. The answers are youth, children.
Individuals under the age of 18 are the highest risk. And of
that population, of the most vulnerable, are unaccompanied,
unmonitored children. And that vulnerability caused by
instability and lack of support puts children at risk. And
unaccompanied minors often arrive alone from dangerous
conditions with no protection or guidance, which makes them
easy targets for trafficking and exploitation.
And Mr. Cuffari, do you know the most used tactic by human
traffickers and predators to lure victims in?
Mr. Cuffari. A promise of some better lifestyle.
Mr. Bell. Coercion, lying, usually coming from a figure of
authority, figures of authority who exploit those young people
who may not know and prey on victims' fears. I am a former
prosecutor and have extensive work in local government, and so
I understand the roles that figures of power play in
communities, figures like our law enforcement. And in many
communities, ICE is much more prevalent with respect to law
enforcement. And this role can shape an individual's actions
and how they respond, particularly when they are scared or
alone.
And so, I got a couple quick questions for you. Are you
familiar with reports in Philadelphia of a man posing as an ICE
agent who robbed people and actually falsely imprisoned them?
Are you aware of that?
Mr. Cuffari. I am a native of Philadelphia. I am aware of
that case.
Mr. Bell. In Houston, are you aware of a man who was
arrested after he robbed somebody while also impersonating an
ICE agent?
Mr. Cuffari. I do not know about that.
Mr. Bell. And in Florida, a 23-year-old man was arrested
and charged when police said that he claimed to be an ICE
officer and threatened to deport two men after he pulled their
vehicle over and demanded identification. Were you familiar
with that?
Mr. Cuffari. I am.
Mr. Bell. And so, the concern--our colleague talked about
things that we should be concerned about, talking about
previous administrations in the past. I think these are things
that we should be concerned about like right now. Would you
agree with that?
Mr. Cuffari. I do.
Mr. Bell. And when people are walking around with masks and
they are identifying themselves as law enforcement agents or,
more specifically, ICE agents, that is problematic, isn't it?
Mr. Cuffari. For whom?
Mr. Bell. Pick the person. The person who is there, the
victim, whomever. So, let me ask you this. So, you do not think
that it is a problem when someone who might be inclined to rob
someone, kidnap them, steal someone, now they know that they
can put a mask on, claim to be ICE, and people will not know?
Mr. Cuffari. Without proper identification.
Mr. Bell. So, is it your testimony today that all ICE
agents need to properly identify themselves?
Mr. Cuffari. That is a decision by the Department of
Homeland Security.
Mr. Bell. But what are your thoughts on that?
Mr. Cuffari. It is the decision of the Department of
Homeland Security how to deploy their law enforcement.
Mr. Bell. Okay. So, I have dealt with law enforcement. I
have worked with law enforcement. And they do not wear masks.
They show themselves. They identify themselves because it is
about the trust and accountability part.
So, here is a hypothetical. So, you have a good-faith
belief that this person who has approached you is not a law
enforcement figure or an ICE agent, and you resist, and you are
wrong. Do you know what will happen to you?
Mr. Cuffari. That is a hypothetical. I do not know what
would happen.
Mr. Bell. You would be prosecuted. So, I do not know if you
are an attorney. I am an attorney. When we are talking about
the law, we start with hypotheticals because when we are
discussing policy, we have to think about every situation that
could potentially happen. And so, you have masked people
walking around. And everyone knows that people can portray
themselves as ICE agents, and if you are wrong, you get
prosecuted, and that is a problem. And we have seen articles of
it in Los Angeles and other places that we mentioned all over
the country.
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Bell. I yield back.
Mr. Higgins. Ms. Pressley is recognized for 5 minutes for
questioning.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you. First, let me begin by saying
this. Republicans, you sound absolutely absurd. Stop calling
children aliens. This intentional--I mean, the cruelty is the
point. This intentional dehumanizing and persistent persecution
through your rhetoric is shameful. You are literally attacking
children. I cannot take seriously anyone who is using othering
language to bully babies and toddlers. Republicans do not want
us to see the humanity of immigrants--that is why they like
saying aliens--and even put it in the title of the hearing. And
that inhumane approach is consistent with the actions of the
Department of Homeland Security.
Dr. Cuffari, have you heard about the DHS policy of
collecting the DNA of children and storing it into the FBI
criminal data base? Yes or no?
Mr. Cuffari. I believe there is not a policy to do
children.
Ms. Pressley. There absolutely is.
Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record
this report from July 2025 titled ``Raiding the Genome: How the
U.S. Government is Abusing its Immigration Powers to Amass DNA
for Future Policing.''
Mr. Higgins. Without objection.
Ms. Pressley. This policy began under Donald Trump. In his
first term, he authorized DHS to begin mass DNA data collection
from immigrants, including children, and hand that data over to
an FBI data base designed to track violent offenders. Now that
he is back, Trump is taking this policy to new extremes, adding
more than a quarter million people to the data base in just
four months. I am right here. A quarter million people, okay,
in four months.
This Committee recently held a hearing on genetic data, and
there was bipartisan agreement that DNA is highly sensitive,
and its misuse is a violation of people's rights because
children as young as four years old could not possibly consent
to DNA collection.
So, I want to know what your office is doing about it, Dr.
Cuffari.
Mr. Cuffari. We actually wrote a report.
Ms. Pressley. One moment, let me ask the question.
Mr. Cuffari. Certainly.
Ms. Pressley. Is it the responsibility of your office to
investigate abuses of civil rights and civil liberties, yes or
no?
Mr. Cuffari. Yes.
Ms. Pressley. Has your office ever investigated concerns
about DHS agents stealing genetic information from children and
uploading it to the FBI's criminal data base?
Mr. Cuffari. Not to my knowledge during my tenure.
Ms. Pressley. Well, for an inspector general worthy of the
title, it should be a priority investigation. Do you agree?
Mr. Cuffari. I agree that we did a report----
Ms. Pressley. Thank you.
Mr. Cuffari. Thank you.
Ms. Pressley. You agree?
Mr. Cuffari. I agree that we did a report----
Ms. Pressley. It should be a priority investigation?
Mr. Cuffari [continuing]. On the matter you are discussing.
Ms. Pressley. For the record, I want to be clear. Do you
agree there should be a priority investigation by your office
to look into agents stealing genetic information from children
and uploading it to the FBI's criminal data base, yes or no?
Yes or no? Your office----
Mr. Cuffari. We have done the report----
Ms. Pressley. Let me just----
Mr. Cuffari [continuing]. That you are mentioning.
Ms. Pressley. Let me just say this. Your office, according
to Title V of the U.S. Code, chapter 4, section 417, this is
the responsibility you are charged with to investigate abuses
of civil rights and civil liberties. Children as young as four
years old have not consented to the collection of their DNA.
That is a violation of their civil rights and civil liberties.
So, this is not a trick question. Do you believe, given the
charge and jurisdiction of your office, that this should be a
priority investigation as their rights have been violated?
Mr. Cuffari. Unless the adult consented on the child's
behalf.
Ms. Pressley. Yes or no? Yes or no, Dr. Cuffari?
Mr. Cuffari. We just got done writing a report.
Ms. Pressley. On what?
Mr. Cuffari. On the DNA collection within the Department of
Homeland Security.
Ms. Pressley. I thought you said you were not even aware
that it was a policy. I am very confused.
Mr. Cuffari. There is not a policy.
Ms. Pressley. Dr. Cuffari, I am not going to, you know,
play these games here because we are talking about children, so
I do not want to circle the drain. But this should be a
priority investigation because we have children whose civil
rights have been violated with the collection of their DNA.
This Administration is turning childhood trauma into a
permanent record. Republicans on this Committee, you claim to
be focused on protecting children, yet you are ignoring actual
threats to their safety. You traumatize children with the
threat of disappearing their parents. You traumatize children
by disappearing their parents. You traumatize children by
collecting their DNA without their consent and criminalizing
them. You traumatize children by denying them food when they
are hungry. You traumatize children by denying them essential
healthcare, which is their human right. You traumatize them so
much that they are afraid to show up to school, afraid to show
up to church, afraid to go to doctor's appointments.
Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record
this July 2025 article from the Boston Globe titled, `` `I Want
Daddy', As ICE detains parents and children''--
Mr. Higgins. Without objection.
The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. Mace is recognized----
Ms. Pressley. Stop using children as pawns. This is the
real child abuse.
Mr. Higgins [continuing]. For 5 minutes for questions.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you. I yield.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the passion
this afternoon.
We talk a lot about the consequences of illegal immigration
on American citizens, and rightfully so. It was a nightmare for
the American people, many of whom were robbed, raped, and
murdered by illegal aliens. Today, we are examining the
humanitarian catastrophe for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris' open
borders caused for children.
And South Carolina is not alone. We have had children
killed by illegal aliens. We had a sanctuary sheriff in South
Carolina just last year who was letting out illegals, not
working with ICE, refused to work with ICE, and she was letting
out--Kristin Graziano was her name, and she lost her election,
rightfully so, in November. But she was letting out illegals
who were rapists, murderers, pedophiles, that sort of thing.
So, open borders are not compassionate. They are cruel. The
Biden Administration's decision to fling our border wide open
and institute catch and release put hundreds of thousands of
unaccompanied children at risk of exploitation through sex-
trafficking, child pornography, narco-trafficking, and modern-
day slavery.
So, Mr. Cuffari, a DHS Inspector General, you sounded the
alarm on this issue, and I know each and every American thanks
you. So, my question for you this afternoon is how many
unaccompanied children were lost by the Biden Administration?
Mr. Cuffari. I believe the figure is 233,000.
Ms. Mace. And how many unaccompanied children were
registered to non-existent addresses or had no address listed
at all?
Mr. Cuffari. I do not have the exact number on that. There
were 31,000 who had invalid addresses.
Ms. Mace. Okay. And in your review, how frequently did you
find numerous children registered to the same address?
Mr. Cuffari. Frequently.
Ms. Mace. And do you believe there were sufficient
safeguards in place to prevent these from happening?
Mr. Cuffari. No.
Ms. Mace. As you mentioned in 2021, the Biden
Administration removed a requirement HHS provide ICE with
biographic and biometric information to vet the sponsors and
adult members of the household of unaccompanied minors. They
made it easier to hand unaccompanied children to criminals. How
many unaccompanied minors did the Biden Administration hand
over to criminals or known cartel associates?
Mr. Cuffari. I know that the recent efforts between HHS and
DHS have identified 400 sponsors who have been arrested.
Ms. Mace. In your review, how many sponsors did you
identify who are criminals or known cartel associates?
Mr. Cuffari. I do not have that figure.
Ms. Mace. Was ICE able to properly vet sponsors of
unaccompanied children for criminal history or cartel ties
without biographic or biometric information from ICE?
Mr. Cuffari. No, they were prohibited from doing so.
Ms. Mace. Crazy. Did the Biden Administration conduct DNA
testing to verify sponsors claiming a familial relation were in
fact related to the unaccompanied child?
Mr. Cuffari. That is a report that we just published within
the last few days. I think the figure was 0.1 percent of
individuals who came to the border had DNA tested.
Ms. Mace. Did the Biden Administration--we did that. Okay.
So, are you aware DHS has a program called Intensive
Supervision Appearance Program, ISAP, to monitor the location
of illegal aliens on the non-detained docket, manage cases, and
ensure compliance?
Mr. Cuffari. Yes.
Ms. Mace. Okay. Do you believe a similar program to track
the location of unaccompanied children would reduce the risk of
unaccompanied minors being exploited?
Mr. Cuffari. It would certainly be very helpful.
Ms. Mace. Okay. I want to thank you for being here today.
And also, as someone who has spent a good part of my political
career protecting women and children, I want to say that
protecting them from illegals who are rapists, murderers, and
pedophiles is supremely important. I have authored dozens of
bills to protect women and kids. I am someone who found myself
accidentally uncovering possible child sexual abuse material in
November 2023, and I will fight like hell for women and kids
everywhere across the country.
And I want to be sure that when we are talking about
pedophiles, convicted, et cetera, that we think about making
sure that we do not expose who those victims are, who those
kids are, that if we are going to release files, that we redact
the names of the kids that were involved or the names of the
victims. I, myself, as a victim currently today, fighting for
justice for myself and other women, I cannot express how
important that is.
But also, how do you traffic 1,000 kids and only have one
accomplice? Like that just does not make sense to me. And I am
for full transparency of all pedophiles. I am for making sure
that we go after those who have raped kids, who have done the
worst of the worst.
So, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
Mr. Higgins. The gentlelady yields.
Ms. Simon. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, I have a UC.
Ms. Simon. I apologize, sir.
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. This is from today. ``Former Obama
ICE Director: Homan's Right that Keeping ICE out of Jails Means
More Collateral Arrests.'' Yield back.
Mr. Higgins. Without objection.
There is unanimous consent that I have entered into the
record a bill currently under consideration by this Committee,
my bill, that is titled ``Restoring Integrity and Efficiency to
the Inspector General Oversight Act of 2025,'' abolishing the
Council of the Inspectors General on Integrity and Efficiency
regarding abolishing CIGIE, which is considered by many to be a
rogue and politically driven and weaponized part of our
government.
Also, for unanimous consent to enter into the record 8 U.S.
Code 1101, under definitions, (a)(3), the term ``alien'' means
any person not a citizen or national of the United States. That
is the legal definition of that term. Without objection.
And I enter into the record or seek unanimous consent, the
Bureau of Justice Statistics that supports my earlier statement
that, at any given time, 700,000 to 800,000 American citizens
are incarcerated in American penitentiaries that are themselves
parents of minor children.
And without objection, pursuant to the previous order, the
Subcommittee stands in recess, subject to the call of the
Chair.
Ms. Lee. Point of order--are we not going to take the vote?
Mr. Higgins. We are in recess.
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chairman, are we going to take the vote for
the motion?
Mr. Higgins. We are in recess, subject to the previous
order which passed without objection. Sorry, this is out of
order conversation--I am just being polite.
[Recess.]
Mr. Higgins. The Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement,
Oversight and Reform, is back in session. Let me just announce
to the Members that we are going to get as much done as we can,
while votes are about to be called, so we can move forward with
these proceedings reflective of our rules.
I believe Mr. Perry had sought recognition.
Mr. Perry. That is right, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I have a motion to subpoena the following
individuals to expand the full Committee's investigation into
Ms. Maxwell, and the list reads as follows: William Jefferson
Clinton, Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton, James Brien Comey,
Loretta Elizabeth Lynch, Eric Hempton Holder Jr., Merrick Brian
Garland, Robert Swan Mueller III, William Pelham Barr,
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, and Alberto Gonzalez. That
is the full list, Mr. Chairman, and that is the motion.
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman has a motion.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. All those opposed signify by saying no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Mr. Higgins. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it,
and the motion is agreed to.
Ms. Lee. A recorded vote.
Mr. Higgins. A recorded vote is requested. The clerk will
call the roll.
Will the clerk, distribute a copy, please.
[Pause.]
Mr. Higgins. Does another Member have--I am not sure that
is within the rules, but does another Member have a request?
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Higgins. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it,
and the motion is agreed to.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Higgins. Does Mr. Biggs have a motion?
Mr. Biggs. I do, Mr. Chairman.
I move that at the bottom of the current motion that it
state the following: ``Additionally, all communications between
President Biden or the Biden officials and the prosecuting
agency related to the Epstein prosecutors also be released.''
Mr. Higgins. And that is at the bottom of which present
motion, sir?
Mr. Biggs. I am not sure. I never received a copy of the
motion, but----
Mr. Higgins. The amendment from Ms. Lee?
Mr. Biggs [continuing]. It is the Democrat's motion that we
are considering. It is----
Mr. Higgins. You are talking about amending the motion of
Ms. Lee?
Mr. Biggs. Yes, if it is Ms. Lee that made the motion for
the subpoena. I did not get a copy of that, sir.
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair, I think our preference and our
request is to have the clean motion that Ms. Lee made to
release the Epstein files. This is the vote that we will be
voting for.
Mr. Higgins. Yes, and the gentleman's argument is being
discussed. There is a parliamentarian discussion going on
between the Majority and the Minority right now. We are going
to follow the rules.
In the meantime, votes have been called, and pursuant to
the previous order, the Subcommittee stands in recess. We will
be returning as fast as possible after votes, so we are going
to call it a one-half hour window to return after votes.
[Recess.]
Mr. Higgins. The Subcommittee will come back to order. We
continue with the amendment--Ms. Lee's motion rather, and I
believe Mr. Biggs has a motion for amendment of Ms. Lee's
motion.
Mr. Biggs. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.
I move to amend Ms. Lee's motion to include the release of
all communications between President Joe Biden and/or the Biden
Administration officials in the Department of Justice related
to Jeffrey Epstein.
Mr. Higgins. Motion is offered.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. All opposed?
Do you have an amendment to the amendment?
Mr. Garcia. I do, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Garcia is recognized with an amendment to
the amendment that Mr. Biggs has offered----
Mr. Garcia. Thank you.
Mr. Higgins. To Ms. Lee's motion.
Mr. Garcia. I move to add a second amendment to the
amendment to Mr. Biggs' to strike ``President Joe Biden and/or
Biden Administration officials'' and replace with ``any
President or executive branch official.''
Mr. Higgins. We will dispense with Mr. Garcia's motion to
amend the amendment of Mr. Biggs before we vote by voice on Mr.
Biggs' amendment to Ms. Lee's motion.
All those in favor of Mr. Garcia's motion to amend Mr.
Biggs' motion, say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. All those opposed, no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Mr. Higgins. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it,
and the motion is not agreed to.
Mr. Garcia. Recorded vote, please, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Higgins. Recorded vote is requested. The clerk will
call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Gosar.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs votes no.
Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Mace votes no.
Mr. Perry.
Mr. Perry. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Perry votes no.
Ms. Boebert.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Jack.
Mr. Jack. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Jack votes no.
Ms. Lee.
Ms. Lee. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Lee votes yes.
Mr. Bell.
Mr. Bell. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Bell votes yes.
Ms. Simon.
Ms. Simon. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Simon votes yes.
Ms. Pressley.
Ms. Pressley. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Pressley votes yes.
Mr. Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Yes.
The Clerk. Mr. Garcia votes yes.
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Higgins. The Chairman votes no.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman votes no.
Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are five, the nays are
five.
Mr. Higgins. The vote is a tie. The motion fails.
We now will dispense with Mr. Biggs' motion to amend the
motion of Ms. Lee.
All those in favor of Mr. Biggs' amendment, say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. All those opposed?
[No response.]
Mr. Higgins. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it,
and the motion is agreed to.
We will now call up Ms. Lee's----
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Higgins. Yes.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Higgins. Yes.
Ms. Mace. Right here. I move to amend Ms. Lee's motion to
include the redacting of names of victims and any personally
identifying information of said victims and any possible child
sexual abuse material, or CSAM. I think it is very important
that we protect any potential victims.
Mr. Higgins. That is an amendment to Ms. Lee's motion.
All those in favor of Ms. Mace's amendment to Ms. Lee's
motion, say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. All those opposed, say no.
[No response.]
Mr. Higgins. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it,
and the motion is agreed to.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Higgins. Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. I move to amend Ms. Lee's motion to add the word
``credible'' before the word ``complete.''
Mr. Higgins. Ms. Mace has further amendment to Ms. Lee's
motion.
All those in favor----
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair?
Mr. Higgins [continuing]. Say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Garcia. We just want that in writing. We just want to
make sure we have the exact change of the motion, please.
Mr. Higgins. I believe she said she has added one word. Can
we dispense?
Ms. Mace. The word ``credible.''----
Mr. Higgins. The word ``credible.''
Ms. Mace. [continuing]. After the word ``complete.'' Sorry.
Mr. Higgins. We respect the gentleman's query. I am asking
to move forward.
Mr. Garcia. Yes, we want that in writing.
Mr. Higgins. Okay. A writ has been requested regarding Ms.
Mace's one-word amendment to Ms. Lee's motion. We will stand by
to move forward with the vote while the clerk prepares the
writ.
Mr. Bell. Mr. Chair, is there an opportunity to comment on
the motion?
Mr. Higgins. Not at this time. Are you asking to be
recognized for comment?
Mr. Bell. Yes.
Mr. Higgins. After we have dispensed with this, yes, sir.
Mr. Bell. Thank you.
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair?
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Garcia, you are recognized. The writ of
Ms. Mace's amendment to Ms. Lee's motion has been distributed.
Mr. Garcia, you are recognized for comment.
Mr. Garcia. Yes, my question, and perhaps the question to
Ms. Lee----
Mr. Higgins. Order.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. I think adding the word
``credible''--who makes the decision on what is credible? And I
am wondering, Ms. Mace, does the DOJ get an opportunity to make
that decision?
Ms. Mace. I believe in the bipartisan bill by
Representatives Massie and Khanna, they use language
``credible'' also. I think it is important that this does not
need to be a witch hunt. We all want transparency on this
Committee, and you are seeing that process in play in real time
right now. And I think it is really important that this is not
a witch hunt, that we are talking about credible information,
credible files, et cetera. And I believe it models the language
that is in the Massie-Khanna bill or discharge petition as it
is.
Mr. Garcia. I mean, we will definitely take a look at that.
I think that, obviously, we want to make sure, I think like all
of you, that we have a full release of the Epstein files and
that all pertinent information is released. I do not doubt that
all of you also want that same thing. I just think it is
important that the word ``credible'', I think, adds a concern
that who is making the decision of what is actually credible
within the actual file.
Ms. Mace. May I?
Mr. Garcia. Please.
Ms. Mace. I think it is important that we ensure that we
are not releasing unverified documents, that the documents that
we are subpoenaing to have released are actually verified. So,
we have all worked on--I have worked on many issues with women
and children. I happen to be a victim of a similar thing that I
uncovered. About one year, nine months ago, I discovered
possible child sexual abuse material on a device from someone
in my district, and I reported it to the feds. I reported it to
the state law enforcement division where there is an open and
active investigation right now based on that information.
And I understand when we are doing an investigation,
because of the experience that I have just been through the
last one year, nine months, one, protecting victims, which we
just did in my previous motion. But now I want to make sure
that the information that we do release is verified and is
credible, and I think that is fair. And you are watching us.
This is democracy in motion. This is a Republican motion. You
are seeing us work together to make sure that we are putting
verified information, verified documents forward. That is, in
my estimation, the best path forward to ensure that this is not
just some political witch hunt, that we are being actually very
thoughtful about it with all parties involved.
Mr. Garcia. I appreciate that. And I think our concern, and
certainly mine is that, you know, if it is the White House or
anyone else that is making a decision of what is actually
credible or not, or the DOJ, we want to----
Ms. Mace. Well, we, as a Committee, are doing that. We----
Mr. Garcia. I understand that. I just want to make sure
that we receive as much information as possible and that the
decision of what is actually credible is not being made by an
outside party.
Ms. Mace. Well, we are making that decision.
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman's time for----
Ms. Mace. We have----
Mr. Higgins [continuing]. Comment on this----
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, may I?
Mr. Higgins [continuing]. Has expired.
Ms. Mace. May I, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Higgins. I would ask that in the interest of all
Members, we are debating one word, one word on an amendment to
a motion that we have yet to vote on.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman, may I have 1 minute?
Mr. Higgins. I recognize Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. We, as an oversight committee, we have writ
authority over our subpoena, over this motion, over the
subpoena. So, there is no one from the White House in the room
today. There is no one from the DOJ in the room. This is us
operating as our own legislative vehicle doing this
independently of anybody. And I think we want to be sure that
this is structured in a way that is taken seriously, is real,
and that it is verified. And we, as a committee, have that writ
authority, Mr. Chairman, as you know.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Mr. Higgins. The gentlelady yields.
Let me say again, we are debating one word. I would suggest
that we move forward with a vote. If you oppose a motion,
oppose a motion.
Ms. Simon. Mr. Chairman, may I be recognized?
Mr. Higgins. The good lady is recognized.
Ms. Simon. Thank you, sir. I would like to yield my time to
Ranking Member Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. And I appreciate the back-and-forth,
and I know we are going to vote here real soon. You know, we
are scanning the resolution. We do not see right now the word
``credible'' in there. Maybe it is there. We have not seen it
yet, but it is not something that we are seeing in the Massie
resolution.
Ms. Mace. Okay.
Mr. Garcia. And so----
Ms. Mace. I am a cosponsor. I thought that was in there, so
my apologies to the Committee.
Mr. Garcia. And so, I think your initial motion, I think
is, is one that we obviously supported with the redacting of
those names and information. I think if we can just move on
from that ``credible'' word and allow the files to be released
as intended. I think the motion as-is was appropriate.
Ms. Mace. May I? So, you are okay with having unverified,
undocumented files released to the public? I mean----
Mr. Garcia. But they are being released to the Committee.
Ms. Mace. To the Committee.
Mr. Garcia. They will be released to us.
Ms. Mace. But you want unverified, undocumented----
Mr. Garcia. Yes. Let us take all the information, Ms. Mace,
and then, at that point, this Committee can make those
decisions. You are going to have that information. We will all
have it. As far as what is released to the public is a separate
question.
Ms. Mace. Right. I just think it is very important for this
to be taken seriously, that we are using legitimate documents,
that they are verified. I am going to yield to Mr. Biggs who
would like to--is that okay?
Mr. Biggs. Thanks.
Ms. Simon. I believe that I have yielded my time, Mr.
Chairman, to Mr. Garcia, so if he wants to yield it back to me?
Mr. Garcia. What I would do is I would----
Mr. Higgins. Hold on. I had recognized Ms. Mace. Did Mr.
Garcia? There is a lot of recognition here.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir. Last piece. I think, look, if
you want to adopt the language that is actually in the Massie
resolution as it relates to the information and what
information we want to get back, I think we would be okay with
that.
Ms. Mace. Well, let us do that.
Mr. Garcia. Let us do that. We are happy to do that. OK.
There is language in the Massie resolution that we will have to
write it out, so you will need to give us some time, but we are
happy to do that with our two teams.
Mr. Higgins. All right. Mr. Bell had sought recognition, I
believe. You are recognized for comment, Mr. Bell.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman?
Ms. Mace. I am not going to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Higgins. On Ms. Mace--pardon?
Ms. Mace. I am not withdrawing amendment.
Mr. Higgins. I understand. On Ms. Mace's amendment to Ms.
Lee's motion, Ms. Mace's amendment being adding the word
``credible'' to Ms. Lee's motion. Mr. Bell is recognized, and
let us move forward, please.
Mr. Bell. With respect to how the legalese of this is that
when you introduce a word like ``credible,'' essentially what
you are saying is that someone is going to make a decision on
what is credible and what is not credible. And when we are
talking about due process, and I do not care whether--I do not
care whose name is in this report, Democrat, Republican, or
whomever, the public has a right, folks have a right to know,
particularly when we are dealing with folks who have been
preying on children. And it is disappointing to me that people
on this Committee do not want to see all of the information
regarding potential trafficking, potential or alleged, preying
on children.
We saw an amendment that limited to President Biden and his
communications, but yet Members on this community want to claim
that they do not want a political witch hunt. Well, you just
made it a political witch hunt. And what we are saying is, let
us just release the files. Let us find out what is in there.
You know, whoever is in there, let us find out what is in
there. Let us get to the bottom of it. That is what justice is
about.
And so, it disappoints me. And I am glad that we are not
doing this vote in the middle of the night as some of these
other controversial votes have been brought up. This is in
broad daylight, and whoever votes, how you vote is right here
and for everyone to see. And so, if you want to add language
that could potentially protect predators, just know you are
going to be held accountable for that, and we are not going to
forget about it because I do not care if my mother's name was
in there. I am sorry, Ma, for throwing you in there. We need to
find out what the information is in that document because, keep
in mind, there might be other victims. There might be other
victims out there who may not feel empowered to stand up
because they do not feel that we are supporting them. And so--
--
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Bell. All right. I will yield my time.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chair?
Mr. Bell. I will yield my time back to the Ranking Member.
Mr. Garcia. I think we are ready to vote, and then we will
move forward.
Ms. Mace. Mr. Chairman? No, the importance of the word----
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Biggs is recognized, yields his time to
Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. It is important that we--I am currently now, I
mean, I have actively reported child sexual abuse material that
I uncovered one year, nine months ago, November 5, 2023. And I
am working with victims. And so, to sit here and say that
Members of this Committee, like myself, do not want information
out about possible crimes against children, we are literally
voting on that right now. It is going to be a bipartisan vote.
So, I take issue with that.
But also, we are in a political environment where the
Steele dossier was touted out there as something that was
credible. It was not credible. We were told that the Hunter
Biden laptop was not credible when it ended up, it was
credible.
And so, you know, we are in this environment. I want to be
as transparent as possible. You are going to see me vote for
this and the other Republicans on this Subcommittee, but it is
important that we treat this with the dignity, the respect, the
transparency, and that we are not going down the conspiracy
rabbit hole that our country has been through for the last four
years. Like we are trying to instill trust in an institution.
And regardless of what is in the files, who is in the files,
all of that, we want to, I think, as a body, this body on this
Committee, this Subcommittee, show that we can be trusted and
that we are not going to play these games. And I think it is
just really important that we are talking about verified
documents. That is why I want the word ``credible'' in there.
I am living this nightmare in real-time with some of my
constituents because of evidence that I personally uncovered,
and I am fighting like hell, tooth and nail for those victims.
And I cannot tell you, when you see possible child sexual abuse
material, what it does to your soul and how awful. And you are
right there with me shaking your head. I cannot tell you how
devastating it is, how devastating it has been to me, the
trauma that I have endured, the vicarious trauma that I have
endured dealing with victims. So, I take this issue very
seriously, and I want to see us do this work, but do it in a
way that is not going to be tainted.
I am sick of the political games. I am sick of it. Let us
do something that is real. Let us do something that is right.
Let us do something that is verified so that we can be trusted.
No one trusts us up here, but we are doing the work now. And
that is why I am very passionate about this and doing it the
right way, not the political way, not the easy way, not the way
that some people in this Committee might go fundraise on this
afterwards, how everyone is eager to take this vote to go make
money for their campaigns next year or use it as a wedge in a
political campaign in the midterms next year.
Let us do it real. Let us do it real. Let us do it right.
Let us do it with dignity. Let us do it with verified
information and documents and do it the right way for the
American people, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
Mr. Higgins. The gentlelady yields. Mr. Biggs yields back
his time.
We call up Ms. Mace's amendment number two for vote.
All those in favor, say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. All those opposed, say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Mr. Higgins. In the opinion of Chair, the ayes have it.
Mr. Garcia. A recorded vote, please.
Mr. Higgins. A recorded vote is called for. The clerk will
call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Gosar.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs votes aye.
Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Mace votes aye.
Mr. Perry.
Mr. Perry. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Perry votes aye.
Ms. Boebert.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Jack.
Mr. Jack. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Jack votes aye.
Ms. Lee.
Ms. Lee. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Lee votes no.
Mr. Bell.
Mr. Bell. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Bell votes no.
Ms. Simon.
Ms. Simon. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Simon votes no.
Ms. Pressley.
Ms. Pressley. No.
The Clerk. Ms. Pressley votes no.
Mr. Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Garcia votes no.
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Higgins. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman votes aye.
Mr. Higgins. The clerk will read the tally.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are five,
the nays are five.
Mr. Higgins. There being a tie, the ayes have it. The
motion fails. There being a tie, the motion fails.
And now, we will be calling up Ms. Lee's motion, as
amended.
All those in favor, say aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Higgins. All those opposed, no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Ms. Lee. The ayes?
Mr. Higgins. Pardon?
Ms. Lee. The ayes have it?
Mr. Higgins. In the opinion of the Chair, the no has it.
Mr. Garcia. Recorded vote, sir.
Mr. Higgins. A recorded vote is called for. The clerk will
call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Gosar.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ms. Mace.
Ms. Mace. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Mace votes aye.
Mr. Perry.
Mr. Perry. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Perry votes aye.
Ms. Boebert.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Mr. Jack.
Mr. Jack. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Jack votes aye.
Ms. Lee.
Ms. Lee. Yes.
The Clerk. Ms. Lee votes yes.
Mr. Bell.
Mr. Bell. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Bell votes aye.
Ms. Simon.
Ms. Simon. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Simon votes aye.
Ms. Pressley.
Ms. Pressley. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Pressley votes aye.
Mr. Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Garcia votes aye.
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Higgins. No.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman votes no.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Biggs is not recorded?
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs is not recorded.
Mr. Biggs. Nay.
The Clerk. Mr. Biggs votes nay.
Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are eight, the nays
are two.
Mr. Higgins. The ayes have it and the motion is agreed to.
The Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 5:17 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]