[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





                    BEYOND THE IVY LEAGUE: STOPPING
                     THE SPREAD OF ANTISEMITISM ON
                           AMERICAN CAMPUSES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               Before The

                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________



              HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, MAY 7, 2025

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-11

                               __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Workforce






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        Available via: edworkforce.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
        
        
        
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                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
                 
61-619 PDF                   WASHINGTON : 2025  
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
                  COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE

                    TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Chairman

JOE WILSON, South Carolina           ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, 
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina            Virginia,
GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania           Ranking Member
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York          FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                MARK TAKANO, California
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            MARK DeSAULNIER, California
MARY E. MILLER, Illinois             DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana              LUCY McBATH, Georgia
KEVIN KILEY, California              JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio               ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam                HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan
ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       GREG CASAR, Texas
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania         SUMMER L. LEE, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington      JOHN W. MANNION, New York
MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          VACANCY
MARK B. MESSMER, Indiana
RANDY FINE, Florida

                     R.J. Laukitis, Staff Director
              Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                                                                   Page

Hearing held on May 7, 2025......................................     1

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

    Walberg, Hon. Tim, Chairman, Committee on Education and 
      Workforce..................................................     1
        Prepared statement of....................................    17
    Scott, Hon. Robert C. ``Bobby'', Ranking Member, Committee on 
      Education and Workforce....................................    19
        Prepared statement of....................................    22

                               WITNESSES

    Raymond, Dr. Wendy, President, Haverford College.............    24
        Prepared statement of....................................    26
    Manuel, Robert, President, DePaul University.................    32
        Prepared statement of....................................    34
    Cole, David, Professor in Law and Public Policy, Georgetown 
      University Law Center......................................    43
        Prepared statement of....................................    45
    Armstrong, Dr. Jeffrey, President, California Polytechnic 
      State University...........................................    55
        Prepared statement of....................................    57

                         ADDITIONAL SUBMISSIONS

    Walberg, Hon. Tim, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Michigan:
        Letter dated May 6, 2025, from the ROHR Center for Jewish 
          Life...................................................     4
        ADL Campus Antisemitism Report Cards for California 
          Polytechnic State University, DePaul University, and 
          Haverford College......................................   106
        Statement dated May 16, 2025, from Adira Fogelman........   134
        Letter dated May 5, 2025, from Jewish Federations of 
          North America..........................................   138
    Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Oregon:
        Letter dated May 1, 2025, from Northwestern University...    62
        Article from jewishpublicaffairs.org, titled ``Broad 
          Coalition of Mainstream Jewish Organizations Release 
          Statement Rejecting False Choice Between Jewish Safety 
          & Democracy''..........................................    68
    DeSaulnier, Hon. Mark, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of California:
        Letter dated May 2, 2025, from Jewish students attending 
          California Polytechnic State University................    99
        Letter of support from Jewish organizations..............   102
    Scott, Hon. Robert C. ``Bobby'', a Representative in Congress 
      from the State of Virginia:
        Press release from ADL, titled ``U.S. Antisemitic 
          Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in 
          Israel, according to Latest ADL Data''.................   129
        NBC article, titled ``Jan. 6 rioter in `Camp Auschwitz' 
          hoodie sentenced to 75 days in prison''................   130
    Omar, Hon. Ilhan, a Representative in Congress from the State 
      of Minnesota:
        Letter dated March 18, 2025, from Mahmoud Khalil.........   141
        Article dated May 2, 2025, from The New York Times, 
          titled ``I Was Detained for My Beliefs. Who Will Be 
          Next?''................................................   143
          
          
          
          
 
                    BEYOND THE IVY LEAGUE: STOPPING 
                     THE SPREAD OF ANTISEMITISM ON 
                           AMERICAN CAMPUSES 

                              ----------                              


                         Wednesday, May 7, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
              Committee on Education and Workforce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:16 a.m. in 
Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tim Walberg, 
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Walberg, Wilson, Foxx, Grothman, 
Stefanik, Allen, Owens, McClain, Miller, Kiley, Rulli, Onder, 
Mackenzie, Baumgartner, Harris, Messmer, Fine, Scott, Courtney, 
Bonamici, Takano, Adams, DeSaulnier, McBath, Hayes, Omar, 
Stevens, Casar, Lee, and Mannion.
    Staff present: Jenna Berger, Investigative Counsel; Lexi 
Boccuzzi, Investigator; Antonette Bowman, FDD Fellow; Vlad 
Cerga, Director of Information Technology; Maren Emmerson, 
Intern; Amy Raaf Jones, Director of Education and Human 
Services Policy; Libby Kearns, Press Assistant; Isaiah Knox, 
Legislative Assistant; Campbell Ladd, Clerk; R.J. Laukitis, 
Staff Director; Danny Marca, Director of Information 
Technology; Audra McGeorge, Communications Director; Daniel 
Nadel, Legislative Assistant; Ethan Pann, Deputy Press 
Secretary and Digital Director; Kane Riddell, Staff Assistant; 
Carl Rifino, Intern; Sara Robertson, Press Secretary; Kent 
Talbert, Investigative Counsel; Brad Thomas, Deputy Director of 
Education and Human Services Policy; Ann Vogel, Director of 
Operations; Ali Watson, Director of Member Services; James 
Whittaker, General Counsel; Ilana Brunner, Minority General 
Counsel; Ni'Aisha Banks, Minority Policy Aide & Internship 
Coordinator; Bryan Gonzalez, Minority Grad Intern; Rashage 
Green, Minority Director of Education Policy & Counsel; 
Christian Haines, Minority General Counsel; Stephanie Lalle, 
Minority Communications Director; Raiyana Malone, Minority 
Press Secretary; Marie McGrew, Minority Press Assistant; Ben 
Noenickx, Minority Intern; Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff 
Director; and Banyon Vassar, Minority Director of IT.
    Chairman Walberg. A quorum is present. The Committee meets 
today pursuant to notice. Without objecting, the Chair may 
recess the Committee at any point. Good morning. The Committee 
on Education and Workforce has been instrumental in exposing 
the antisemitism that has infected--I hate using that term, but 
it is true, infected our Nation's oldest and best-known 
institutions of higher education.
    Schools like Harvard and Columbia, Northwestern. We have 
held, and will continue to hold these universities accountable, 
as they choose to stand idly by, rather than meaningfully 
addressing the harassment and the discrimination against Jewish 
students on their campuses.
    As we will see today, the scourge of antisemitism has taken 
root far beyond the country's best-known ivory towers. It is 
our responsibility as a committee to unearth and address 
antisemitism at these schools too, and others, especially as 
antisemitism is at a historic high in the United States.
    Antisemitism is proliferating at colleges across the 
country, both private, public, rural, urban and suburban 
settings. What does antisemitism look like? It manifests in 
faculty, who create a hostile environment on campus, of all 
places, by expressing support for known terrorist groups, 
verbally harass Jewish students and call for the destruction of 
Israel.
    It manifests itself in students who lob antisemitic slurs 
at Jewish students, and display signs glorifying violence 
against Jews, while cowardly shielding their own identity 
behind masks. It manifests itself in organizations like Faculty 
and Staff for Justice in Palestine, Students for Justice in 
Palestine, and American Muslims for Palestine, which all 
support this infrastructure of hate.
    It manifests itself in administrators, some of whom appear 
antisemitic themselves, while others are complicit in creating 
a hostile environment through their indifference to the 
harassment of Jewish students. We will hear today about 
antisemitism at three institutions. Haverford College, DePaul 
University and California Polytechnic State University, San 
Luis Obispo.
    The incidents we will be discussing with our witnesses 
today are truly appalling and shameful. Take Haverford, for 
instance, a small liberal arts college located in suburbs 
outside of Philadelphia. From the time of October 7, 2023, 
terrorists attack in Israel to the present, the Haverford 
administration has consistently refused to act against severe 
antisemitic harassments on campus.
    It has refused to even condemn these incidents of 
harassment or hostility in a clear, unequivocal statement, much 
less meaningfully discipline the students responsible for these 
incidents. Instead, the University has exhibited an all-
consuming commitment to dialog, even when that dialog is 
dominated by antisemitic conspiracy theories or cause the 
violence.
    What is more, Haverford employs faculty members who engage 
in blatant antisemitism with no apparent consequences. For 
example, one professor declared online that Zionism is Nazism. 
The Haverford administrations' failure to address antisemitism 
on campus is taking a painful toll on students, faculty and 
staff.
    Without objection, I would like to enter into the record a 
letter from Haverford's Chabad House that was sent just 
yesterday, yesterday afternoon, to the Haverford Board of 
Managers. The letter says, ``Under this administration Jewish 
students have been marginalized, ostracized and at times 
outright attacked. Meanwhile, their pain has been met with 
indifference.''
    I was also caught with their early statement and letter 
where it says ``We've never spoken out against the college. 
We've never publicly criticized this leadership. We've simply 
tried to serve to support Haverford and its students in every 
way we could, but today we can no longer remain silent.''
    I submit this for the record, and without objection, it is 
submitted.
    [The Information of Chairman Walberg follows:]  
    
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    Chairman Walberg. At DePaul meanwhile, there have been 
multiple, yes multiple instances, of physical violence against 
Jewish students. Last May, the University permitted a multi-
week encampment that was so disruptive and violent that the 
nearby elementary school had to cancel recess.
    After finally forcibly shutting down the encampment, DePaul 
still ended up giving in to agitators' demands. We have a 
student here today who had surgery as a result of the attack on 
him, and a colleague. At Cal Poly, at least one faculty member 
has been complicit in harassing Jewish students who were trying 
to attend an Israel related special lecture.
    My colleagues and I are committed to holding these three 
universities, and others accountable for perpetuating 
antisemitism. We are committed to enacting policies that create 
a safe environment for Jewish students. One in which faculty, 
staff, and administrators are held accountable for the 
antisemitism that consumes their campuses.
    I look forward to hearing your testimony today, as it will 
certainly inform this Committee's future work. With that, I 
yield to the Ranking Member for an opening statement.
    [The Statement of Chairman Walberg follows:]
    
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    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our 
witnesses for being with us today. The month of May marks 
Jewish Heritage Month. It is when we celebrate the generations 
of Jewish Americans who have made incredible contributions to 
this country.
    This month we reaffirm our commitment to combat the rise of 
antisemitism, both on and off college campuses. No one should 
be discriminated against because of who they are, or how they 
worship. All students have the right to learn in a safe 
environment, free from discrimination in compliance with Title 
VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
    Unfortunately, instead of properly enforcing Title VI, this 
Committee is holding the eighth hearing describing the problem, 
and complaining about antisemitism on college campuses, instead 
of taking any meaningful action to actually solve the problem.
    Curiously, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle 
have not had any hearings addressing other forms of 
discrimination and hate, such as racism, Title IX gender 
violations, islamophobia, homophobia, or the challenges of 
meeting the needs of students with disabilities.
    This is particularly concerning since we know from reports 
from the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights that 
on January 11th of last year, there were 12,000 open cases 
alleging discrimination and violation of Title VI, 12,000. Of 
those 12,000 cases, only 144 could be Title VI violations 
involving antisemitism.
    We know the solution of this problem is better enforcement 
of Title VI, so instead of holding another problem, another 
hearing, talking about the problem, which complains about the 
problem, we ought to be holding a hearing on what is going on 
in the Office of Civil Rights, OCR, the Department of 
Education.
    This administration is in the process of dismantling the 
Office of Civil Rights, and it raises reasonable doubt about 
the plans for addressing antisemitism on campus, as well as 
racism, homophobia, sexism, Islamophobia, the needs of students 
with disabilities.
    Again, we should be focused on trying to solve the problem, 
rather than just complaining about it. For centuries college 
campuses have served as centers for debate and discussion on 
polarizing issues in our country. Unfortunately, this also 
means that they can become flashpoints for controversy.
    It is fundamental for us to understand that we must protect 
students' safety, while also fostering college campuses as a 
place of learning where difficult topics can be discussed 
civilly without fear of retribution.
    OCR has typically and historically played a vital role in 
preserving that balance. When a suspected incidence of 
discrimination occurs on college campuses, OCR can investigate 
the claim, and when I say investigate, you have produced a 
letter from Jewish students on campus, administration has 
letters from Jewish students on campus.
    It is nice to have an investigation to find out what the 
facts are, but the OCR could investigate the claim, and there 
is an established process.
    Should an institution be found to violate its duty to 
provide a safe learning environment, OCR's process is to work 
with the school, will allow it to address the harm. 
Specifically, the institution is expected to take appropriate 
action to ``end the harassment, eliminate the hostile 
environment, prevent its reoccurrence and address its affect as 
appropriate.''
    If this does not happen, the Department of Education can 
begin to withhold funds from the part of the institution which 
is in violation. Over the first 3 months of the Trump 
administration, it is closed out 7 of 12 OCR regional offices, 
all of which conduct investigations into discrimination, and 
all of which conduct investigations into the discrimination on 
campus whether based on antisemitism or race, national origin, 
gender or disability.
    According to public reports nearly half of the OCR staff 
has been laid off, and so one is left to wonder--how can OCR 
carry out its important responsibilities with half the staff? 
My concerns have been confirmed by other reporting of students 
struggling to get assistance with ongoing cases because their 
attorney has been laid off.
    Moreover, instead of conducting investigations according 
with the law, the Trump administration has taken a sledgehammer 
to due process rights of institutions. In fact, the public has 
seen broad reports of this administration taking action without 
any investigation, such as taking away Federal funding, 
students and professors having their international visas 
revoked, students who have disappeared into detention centers, 
and threats to revoke tax exempt status of multiple 
universities.
    Schools are also told to accept a list of the 
administration's demands, all without OCR first conducting a 
fact-finding investigation. In short, that is not due process. 
For some of us, this does not come as a surprise. After all, 
just this past weekend the President appeared on NBC News and 
was asked whether he believes that he should uphold the 
Constitution, and he responded, ``I don't know.''
    Of course, one could not forget that this is also the same 
President who thought that, ``There were very fine people on 
both sides,'' after a White Supremacists marched through 
Charlottesville in 2017 chanting, ``Jews will not replace us.'' 
What everyone, including people you may disagree with, everyone 
is entitled to due process, and all students should be able to 
seek recourse if they have been discriminated against.
    Similarly, institutions should be given a chance to address 
the harms on their campus without fear of political 
retribution, and perhaps we should be proactive and utilize 
agencies and Federal Government like the Community Relation 
Services at the Department of Justice, which can serve as a 
peacemaker when there are problems in communities.
    Of course, regrettably, the Community Relations Service is 
on the chopping block right now at the Department of Justice. 
We hope we can have a productive conversation today. The 
Centers of Students and higher education, but hopefully 1 day 
we will begin having a hearing on solutions, rather than 
continuing to complain about the problem.
    Now, before I yield back, when I said 12,000, that are the 
cases, total cases in the backlog, not the total number of 
cases, so that the point, obviously, is that the number of 
antisemitism cases of all of the cases is a very small number, 
and if we are going to investigate Title VI violations, we 
ought to be investigating all of them, and we ought to be 
looking at what is going on at OCR, because that will be 
ultimately the solution to the problem.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    [The Statement of Ranking Member Scott follows:]

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    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. Pursuant to 
Committee Rule 8-C, all members who wish to insert written 
statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the 
Committee Clerk electronically in Microsoft Word by 5 p.m., 14 
days after this hearing.
    Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 
14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material 
noted during the hearing to be submitted for the official 
hearing record.
    I will now turn to the introduction of our four witnesses. 
Our first witness is Dr. Wendy Raymond, the President of 
Haverford College in Haverford, Pennsylvania. Welcome. Our 
second witness is Dr. Robert Manuel, the President of DePaul 
University in Chicago, Illinois, welcome.
    Our third witness is Mr. David Cole, the George J. Mitchell 
Professor in Law and Public Policy at the Georgetown University 
Law Center in Washington, DC. Mr. Cole was formerly the 
National Legal Director for the American Civil Liberties Union, 
welcome.
    Our last witness is Dr. Jeffrey Armstrong, the President of 
California Polytechnic State University in San Luis Obispo, 
California. We thank the witnesses for being here today. 
Pursuant to the Committee Rules, I would ask that you each 
limit your oral presentation to a 3-minute summary of your 
written statement. The clock will countdown from 3 minutes, as 
Committee members have many questions for you, and we would 
like to spend as much time as possible on questions.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 8-D, the Committee practice, 
however, we will not cutoff your testimony until you reach the 
5-minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be 
aware of their responsibility to provide accurate information 
to the Committee.
    I will first recognize Dr. Raymond for your testimony.

 STATEMENT OF DR. WENDY RAYMOND, PRESIDENT, HAVERFORD COLLEGE, 
                    HAVERFORD, PENNSYLVANIA

    Ms. Raymond. Chairman Walberg, Ranking Member Scott, 
Committee members, thank you for the opportunity to testify 
today. Before I begin, I want to make it clear that Haverford 
condemns in the strongest, possible terms, antisemitism in all 
its forms.
    Haverford College is a liberal arts college outside 
Philadelphia, with about 1,500 undergraduate students. It has 
been a privilege to serve as President for the last 6 years.
    We are a secular institution established in 1833 by a group 
of Quakers, that Quaker history is one of the many qualifies 
that make Haverford the distinctive place it is today.
    Small and closeknit, the college encourages, and values 
open inquiry and free expression, core tenets of academic 
freedom. Education here is grounded in the Quaker assumption 
that intellectual and ethical growth are never complete. In the 
past few years, we have been tested like never before.
    The horrific terrorist attacks by Hamas against Israel 
caused unfathomable pain on our campus and around the world. 
Moreover, the ongoing war and loss of innocent lives in Israel 
and Gaza have left many shaken.
    In the wake of these events, we have seen a troubling rise 
in antisemitism in our communities, and on our campuses. In the 
days following the attacks, I was inspired by how the Haverford 
community came together.
    At the same time, events have occurred on our campus that 
are inconsistent with our values. I take these incidents and 
Haverford's response very seriously. We have taken significant 
steps to address these issues and strengthen our policies.
    That includes updating our policies, strengthening campus 
safety programs, deepening engagement with the Jewish 
community, launching programs to combat antisemitism, informing 
our ad hoc committee on free expression. I recognize that we 
have not always succeeded in living up to our ideals.
    Many have wished that the college, or I, as President, had 
responded differently to various actions, and we continue to 
make progress and invest in the quality of the campus 
experience for all Haverford students.
    In closing, I would like to address the Haverford community 
directly. You are the ones pushing us to be better. I hear you 
and acknowledge that we can do better, and I can do better. To 
our Jewish students, some of you who are here today, I wish to 
make it unmistakably clear that you are valued members of our 
community and on our campus.
    I am sorry that my actions and my leadership let you down. 
I remain committed to addressing antisemitism, and all issues 
that harm our community members.
    I am committed to getting this right. This is an 
unprecedented time in our college's history, and I continue to 
believe in the Haverford community.
    I thank you for demonstrating how together we can work 
toward creating a better and more peaceful world. Thank you, 
and I look forward to your questions.
    [The Statement of Dr. Raymond follows:]
    
    
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    Chairman Walberg. Thank you, President Raymond. Now Dr. 
Manuel, we recognize you for your testimony.

 STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT MANUEL, PRESIDENT, DEPAUL UNIVERSITY, 
                       CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

    Mr. Manuel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Walberg, 
Ranking Member Scott, members of the Committee, I want to thank 
you for this opportunity to discuss DePaul's efforts to combat 
antisemitism and keep our campus safe. More than 125 years, 
DePaul's Catholic Vincentian Mission has been grounded in the 
belief that every human being possesses inherent dignity, and 
worth.
    A belief that compels us to stand firmly against 
antisemitism in all its forms. Since the terrorist attacks by 
Hamas on October 7th, we have taken strong steps to support our 
Jewish community members, prioritizing campus safety and 
student well-being. We have made mistakes along the way. As 
DePaul's leader, I want to acknowledge that openly.
    To our students, our parents, our faculty, our staff, our 
alumni and our friends, I am deeply sorry. I know there are 
areas where we must and will do better. I also wish to speak 
directly to two of our students who were attacked last 
November. What happened to them was a hate crime. No one should 
ever be attacked because of who they are, and I am sorry for 
the pain that they are experiencing.
    For the past year and a half, we have taken concrete steps 
to ensure Jewish students, and all students are safe on our 
campus. For example, we just implemented a new ID verification 
and mask policy. We have introduced new limits on campus 
protests through our time, place and manner restrictions.
    We have enforced them. The operations for students for 
Justice in Palestine are currently suspended from the campus, 
and we banned a group, not a student group, Behind Enemy Lines 
from our campus. We have hired a former ADL professional to 
assist in our Jewish engagement on campus.
    We have created a dedicated task force on antisemitism. We 
supported the creation of the Jewish Faculty Staff Alliance, 
and now we are also launching a Jewish alumni group. We have 
also made substantial investments to increase security and 
safety across our urban Chicago campuses, and I commissioned an 
external review of our security programs to improve campus 
safety.
    As an institution founded on Catholic principles, we 
believe this moment demands moral clarity. Antisemitism is not 
only a threat to Jewish students, faculty and staff, it is a 
threat to the very fabric of our American society. I recognize 
that for many in our Jewish community, Israel is a core part of 
their identity.
    Those community members, and every community member 
deserves to feel safe on campus without exception. We began 
this work over a year and a half ago. While there is more work 
to be done, the changes we have made are already fostering a 
culture of accountability on our campus. We recognize the 
vigilance on this topic, and it will need to be focal point of 
our work going forward. You have my commitment that we are 
focused on continuing to make real progress and take action.
    As a person of faith, I am personally committed to 
confronting antisemitism wherever it appears in our 
institutions, in our communities, and in ourselves. I want to 
thank you for the opportunity to be here today, and I look 
forward to the questions.
    [The Statement of Dr. Manuel follows:]


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    Chairman Walberg. Thank you, Dr. Manuel, and now I 
recognize Mr. David Cole for your testimony.

 STATEMENT OF MR. DAVID COLE, GEORGE J. MITCHELL PROFESSOR IN 
 LAW AND PUBLIC POLICY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER, AND 
FORMER NATIONAL LEGAL DIRECTOR, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION, 
                        WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Chairman Walberg. Press the button and turn the mic on 
there, please.
    Mr. Cole. Sorry.
    Chairman Walberg. Thank you.
    Mr. Cole. Thank you, Chairman Walberg, much better, and 
Ranking Member Scott for inviting me to testify today. I come 
not so much to comment on the specifics of what happened in 
Haverford, DePaul or Cal Poly, but to provide a legal framework 
and a cautionary note.
    In my work with the ACLU and others, I have defended the 
speech rights of everyone from the National Rifle Association, 
which I represented successfully in the Supreme Court just last 
year, to fundamentalist Christians, to Palestinian students. I 
have also challenged discrimination on the basis of race, sex, 
and religion.
    I care deeply about both values, free speech and equality, 
and both are at stake here. I have three points. First, 
antisemitic speech, while lamentable, is constitutionally 
protected, just like racist speech, sexist speech, and 
homophobic speech is. The Supreme Court protected the rights of 
the Nazi party to march in Skokie, the home of Holocaust 
survivors. Sorry, I just turned my thing off.
    It protected the rights of the Westboro Baptist Church to 
hurl homophobic slurs at a military funeral, and it protected 
the rights of the Ku Klux Clan to burn crosses and engage in 
racist speech. As Chief Justice Roberts explained in the 
Westboro Baptist Church case, while such speech obviously 
causes deep harm, the greater danger is giving government 
officials the power to censor speech by labeling it 
antisemitic, racist or sexist.
    Second, Title VI does not prohibit antisemitic speech. It 
prohibits only the discriminatory denial of equal access to 
education. An antisemitic slogan at a protest, or online, does 
not deny equal access to education anymore than a sexist or a 
racist comment at a rally does.
    Antisemitic speech implicates Title VI in only two narrow 
circumstances. First, where it constitutes harassment targeted 
at an individual because of that individual's Jewish identity. 
Not because he supports Israel, but because of his Jewish 
identity specifically.
    Second, where the speech is not targeted, say at a rally, 
where it is so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that 
it denies equal access to an education. That is a very high 
standard. It has almost never been met in the case law. That 
means most antisemitic speech does not implicate Title VI at 
all. Therefore, a school committed to free speech should be 
tolerating it, not suppressing it, as this Committee would ask.
    Title VI governs only colleges, not students, so when a 
student harasses another student that student has not violated 
Title VI, and the college has not violated Title VI because the 
student does not speak for the college. The college only 
violates Title VI if it is deliberately indifferent to the act, 
deliberately indifferent, again, a very high standard set forth 
by the Supreme Court in the Davis case, and almost never met.
    That is basically you ignore what has happened rather than 
respond. Deliberate indifference is not responding to 
antisemitism in a way that this Committee does not think is 
sufficient. That leads me to my third and final point. The line 
between protected antisemitic speech and prohibited antisemitic 
discrimination is necessarily fact intensive.
    It requires a careful assessment of what was said to whom, 
and why it was said. As a result, it is not sufficient to make 
general accusations of antisemitism, as members of this 
Committee have repeatedly done in all of the prior hearings, 
and already today. Any more than it is sufficient under Title 
IX to label an encounter between two students' sexual 
harassment.
    You need to look at what happened, hear both sides of the 
encounter, and make a legal assessment, not a political 
harangue. Therefore, getting to the bottom of what happened 
here requires fair hearings where both sides are heard with 
about specific incidents.
    This Committee room is not the place to do that. This 
Committee has not held a single hearing looking into a specific 
incident, having the perpetrator and the complainant testify, 
and trying to figure out what has happened.
    Instead, it has engaged in broad based charges of 
antisemitism without any factual predicate. With all due 
respect, these proceedings have had more in common with those 
of the House American Un-Activities Committee----
    Chairman Walberg. I ask the gentleman to conclude. You have 
gone past the 5-minutes.
    Mr. Cole. Yes, I am sorry. If I could just--I have one 
final comment. It will take me a second.
    Chairman Walberg. Very quick.
    Mr. Cole. Yes. These proceedings, with all due respect, 
have more in common with those of the House Un-American 
Activities Committee. They are not an attempt to find out what 
happened, but an attempt to shield protected speech.
    Chairman Walberg. Thank you for your testimony.
    Mr. Cole. That was a mistake then, and it is a mistake now.
    [The Statement of Mr. Cole follows:]

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    Chairman Walberg. Thank you for your testimony, and I think 
we did not step on your testimony.
    Mr. Cole. Thank you.
    Chairman Walberg. Now, I recognize Dr. Armstrong for your 
testimony.

   STATEMENT OF DR. JEFFREY ARMSTRONG, PRESIDENT, CALIFORNIA 
   POLYTECHNIC STATE UNIVERSITY, SAN LUIS OBISPO, CALIFORNIA

    Mr. Armstrong. Good morning, Chairman Walberg, Ranking 
Member Scott, and members of the Committee. For the past 14 
years it has been my privilege to serve as President of Cal 
Poly in San Luis Obispo, California. At Cal Poly we emphasize a 
learn by doing approach, providing hands on, practical 
experience, learning from experiences, and constantly getting 
better.
    Over the past 18 months questions have been asked about how 
higher education institutions confront, prevent, and combat 
antisemitism that escalated after the 2023 Hamas attacks 
against Israeli citizens. The October 7 attacks on innocent 
men, women and children were horrific.
    The violence perpetrated that day must be condemned without 
equivocation. The targeting of Jewish students on campuses 
across the U.S. that followed was terrible and unacceptable. 
Both as a university President, and a human being, this is a 
matter I take particularly seriously. We have to do better. At 
Cal Poly, when people do not live up to our commitment to 
prohibit prejudice and bias, we hold them accountable.
    We have dealt with antisemitism and other forms of 
discrimination by faculty staff, visitors and students. We do 
not tolerate threatening activity. We deploy campus police 
whenever there is potential for threatening activity, or 
trouble, and they make arrests and file criminal charges when 
justified.
    In addition, when alleged antisemitism or harassment 
occurs, we investigate and impose immediate university 
discipline. At Cal Poly, we have enjoyed a vibrant Jewish 
community for many years. Stakeholders rate Jewish life on our 
campus at a high level, and the number of Jewish students has 
doubled since 2011.
    Hillel and Chabad are registered Cal Poly student 
organizations, and I and my wife have been invited to and 
proudly participated in some of their activities. I am grateful 
to the Jewish student leaders who traveled across the country 
to join me here today. In addition to those long-standing 
partnerships, we have been working with the ADL and other 
Jewish leaders on several ongoing and some new initiatives.
    First, we have continued to be certain to speak out to 
oppose antisemitism. Second, we are enhancing our mandatory 
student orientation and biannual employee training to provide 
greater education and awareness about antisemitism. Our team is 
participating in the fifth cohort of Hillel's Campus Climate 
Initiative.
    To date, our administrators have attended eight training 
sessions. Third, we are establishing a new Presidential 
Antisemitism Task Force that will develop an action plan 
focused on Jewish student life, antisemitism, education and 
cultural awareness.
    Fourth, we are continuing to fundraise to endow a Chair in 
Jewish Studies and build an interfaith center that includes 
Jewish students. Our efforts to support Jewish students and 
combat antisemitism have made progress.
    I want to emphasize that our goal is continuous 
improvement. We will work to give each student the safest 
possible environment, free from discrimination and religious 
intolerance, so they can learn, grow and succeed. We call it 
being ready day one. We will continue to strongly confront any 
antisemitic conducts or threats.
    In conclusion, I want to thank you for the important work 
on this issue and pledge our continuing support.
    [The Statement of Dr. Armstrong follows:]

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    Chairman Walberg. Thank you, Dr. Armstrong. Under Committee 
Rule 9, we will now question witnesses under the 5-minute rule. 
I will recognize myself for the first 5 minutes. This question 
is for all three Presidents. All of your schools have been hot 
beds of antisemitism at some point.
    Please tell me how many students at your schools have been 
suspended, and how many have been expelled for antisemitic 
conduct since October 7, 2023.
    President Raymond.
    Ms. Raymond. We do not publicize those numbers, and we use 
suspension and expelling as normal parts of our disciplinary 
process.
    Chairman Walberg. You do not have numbers to give us, so we 
assume there have been none.
    Ms. Raymond. We do not talk about those numbers publicly.
    Chairman Walberg. Mr. Manuel.
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you for the question. Post-October 7th, 
there were eight student groups investigated. Two were 
suspended and put on probation. I believe there were two 
arrests after the encampment dissolution, one of them I believe 
was a student.
    Chairman Walberg. Thank you.
    President Armstrong.
    Mr. Armstrong. As a result of events in 2024, we have had a 
total of six students disciplined, with the discipline ranging 
from two quarters suspension to deferred suspension to 
probation.
    Chairman Walberg. President Manuel, you say you are 
committed to addressing antisemitism on campus. The group, 
Students for Justice in Palestine or SJIP, is at the very 
center of your antisemitism problem. Students have been 
physically and verbally assaulted at multiple SJIP protests. 
SJIP was central to the May 2024 encampment, which caused 
$500,000 in damage.
    SJIP has also circulated deeply antisemitic posts on 
Instagram, including a recent post accusing Israel of being 
just like the Nazi's. President Manuel, considering SJIP's 
history of harassment and violence against Jewish students, and 
its repeated refusal to abide by university policies, will you 
commit to finally, permanently, permanently, banning SJIP from 
campus?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you for the question. SJIP has been 
suspended. They are on probation, and this post that I think 
you are referring to happened on Thursday. They were 
immediately suspended, and all their operations from campus 
pending a new hearing. The cumulative effect of their work will 
be considered in the results or the outcomes of that next 
hearing. I would be happy to report back to you on their 
findings.
    Chairman Walberg. I would be glad to receive that. The 
cumulative effects seems like it is gone on and on. I believe 
it would be a point in time for banning. President Raymond, in 
March the Haverford and Bryn Mawr group Faculty and Staff for 
Justice in Palestine, or FSJIP praised a Palestinian terrorist 
who led an attack in 1978 that killed 38 Israelis, including 13 
children.
    FSJIP claimed that the terrorists, and I quote, 
``Sacrificed herself for her country, and fought for the 
freedom of many Palestinians.'' Does praising the murder of 
Jews violate any Haverford policies?
    Ms. Raymond. Of course it does.
    Chairman Walberg. Thank you.
    Ms. Raymond. There is no place for that, ever, anywhere.
    Chairman Walberg. Thank you. Another FSJIP post applauded a 
member of the Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine, a U.S. 
designated terrorist group because she trained for military 
operations. Did Haverford professors in this group face any 
consequences whatsoever?
    Ms. Raymond. I am not aware of that particular post, and 
antisemitism in any of its forms is not tolerated at Haverford 
College.
    Chairman Walberg. Well, with these faculty it seems to have 
been. I am going to ask you a few questions about statements we 
have heard on Haverford's campus since the October 7th 
terrorist attack against Israel. Again, I will not display all 
that is in this book, but this reminds us that the attack was 
not from Israel. The attack was from Hamas, brutal, unprovoked 
attack as well.
    Is the phrase, ``Long Live the Intifada,'' protected speech 
on Haverford's campus? Yes, or no?
    Ms. Raymond. That is an antisemitic form of speech.
    Chairman Walberg. Is the phrase, ``From Gaza to Lebanon, 
Israel Will Soon Be Gone,'' protected speech on Haverford's 
campus?
    Ms. Raymond. That is repugnant speech. I disavow it. It is 
antisemitic.
    Chairman Walberg. Happening. Is the phrase, ``Resistance is 
not terrorism,'' protected speech on Haverford's campus?
    Ms. Raymond. Any antisemitic speech I will not defend, and 
at Haverford we do protect speech.
    Chairman Walberg. Do these statements call for the genocide 
of Jews?
    Ms. Raymond. There is no tolerance for any such speech that 
would call for that.
    Chairman Walberg. Well, we hope we see that soon to come. 
Hamas is gaining support and comfort from schools that allow 
this to go on, and these go beyond just simply words. They 
include faculty and students blocking the freedom of education, 
and life itself for Jewish students. I yield back, and now I 
recognize Representative Bonamici, the gentlelady from Oregon, 
for her questioning.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I have said 
before on this Committee, there has been an undeniable rise in 
antisemitism and hate speech across the country and around the 
globe. Antisemitism is a real problem that has existed for 
thousands of years and should be taken seriously by schools and 
universities, and by elected officials.
    Jewish students deserve to feel safe and be safe on campus 
and everywhere. No one should be afraid of harassment or 
discrimination because of their faith, and I strongly condemn 
acts of violence, and want to emphasize that people who break 
the law must be held accountable.
    Instead of engaging with this topic genuinely and 
constructively, we have another performative hearing, during 
which the majority will try to blame the left, and what they 
consider liberal or elitist institutions and college for acts 
of antisemitism. It is another chapter in the majority's battle 
against higher education.
    As we have discussed repeatedly, but it is worth restating, 
when white supremacists marched in Charlottesville with burning 
tiki torches chanting, ``Jews will not replace us,'' President 
Trump said there were fine people on both sides, and I do not 
recall the Republican majority calling that out.
    General Kelly, who served as Chief of Staff in the first 
Trump Administration said that Donald Trump spoke favorably 
about Hitler, saying that Hitler had done some good things. 
Some Republican Members of Congress have promoted conspiracy 
theories, like Jewish space lasers that control weather, and 
have accused ``Jewish globalist elites,'' of pulling strings 
behind the scenes of government.
    Another, a member of this Committee, quoted Hitler on the 
steps of the capitol. Several members of President Trump's 
inner circle have public and prominent ties to white 
nationalist and white supremacist groups, there are more 
examples, but I have made the point.
    If this Committee is going to tackle the rise in 
antisemitism, let us start there. Let us denounce and condemn 
all instances of antisemitism, including from colleagues and 
the administration. If we truly want to protect Jewish 
Americans, we need to speak out regardless of the source and 
not turn a blind eye when antisemitic attacks come from leaders 
of a political party.
    For those of us who do want to stop the rise of 
antisemitism on college campuses, I remind you that the Federal 
Government already has an entity in place to investigate and 
resolve antisemitic instances, the Office of Civil Rights. It 
is housed, at least for now, in the Department of Education.
    Unfortunately, Secretary McMahon has fired almost half of 
OCR's staff and closed 7 of their 12 regional offices. 
President Trump's recent budget called for a 35 percent cut to 
the Office of Civil Rights. Will any of the Republicans on this 
Committee stand against the dismantling of the Office of Civil 
Rights?
    I doubt it, because that would require a real commitment to 
combating antisemitism. If you truly want to stand up for the 
Jewish people, condemn the White Christian Nationalism seeping 
into the policy in the White House. Speak up against the 
attempts to end the separation of religion and government, show 
your support for freedom of religion.
    It is unconscionable to weaponize the real problems of the 
Jewish community for political gain, and I am not going to 
engage in more back and for in this hearing with people who 
call out antisemitism, when it is part of their Anti higher 
education agenda, but not when it is coming from their side of 
the aisle.
    Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to enter a 
statement into the record from Northwestern University, in 
which more than 100 Jewish faculty and staff members raised 
serious concerns about how Congress is addressing antisemitism.
    They say we come from different points on a political 
compass. We express our identities as Jews in a myriad of ways, 
but we are united by the conviction that our Jewishness must 
not be used as a cudgel to silence the vigorous exchange of 
ideas that lie at the heart of university life.
    I also request unanimous consent to insert into the record 
a statement from the Jewish Council on Public Affairs, and a 
broad coalition of Jewish groups in which they emphasize that 
they, ``firmly reject the false choice between confronting 
antisemitism, and upholding democracy.''
    Our safety as Jews has always been tied to the rule of law, 
to the safety of others, to the strength of civil society, and 
to the protection of rights and liberty for all. It continues, 
it is both possible and necessary to fight antisemitism on 
campus, in our communities, and across the country without 
abandoning the Democratic values that have allowed Jews and so 
many other vulnerable minorities to thrive.
    Mr. Chairman, as a mother who raised her children in the 
Jewish home----
    Chairman Walberg. Without objection, they will be received.
    [The Information of Ms. Bonamici follows:]

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    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the mother of 
children she raised in a Jewish home, and is an active member 
of my synagogue for more than 25 years, I can no longer pretend 
that this is a good faith effort to root out antisemitism, 
especially when the Trump administration and majority party are 
regularly undermining Jewish values, including justice, loving 
kindness, free speech, freedom of religion, and the Jewish 
responsibility of Tikkun Olam, to repair the world. I yield 
back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady, and I now 
recognize the gentleman from South Carolina, Representative 
Wilson.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Chairman Tim Walberg, and 
I appreciate your leadership for promoting real academic 
freedom with real diversity of ideology with equality and with 
real political inclusion. With that in mind, all Americans in 
good faith want college education to be uplifting for students, 
and to achieve the American dream.
    Unfortunately, the barbaric mass murder of October 7th by 
Iranian puppets of Hamas invading Israel, has shockingly 
revealed that many college campuses are antisemitic in 
defending the maniacal Hamas agenda.
    The world should know the Hamas covenant of August 18, 
1988, declares in the midst of insane provisions, Article VII, 
``The day of judgment will not come about until Muslims fight 
the Jews, killing the Jews. When the Jew will hide behind 
stones and trees.
    These stones and trees will say oh, Muslim, there is a Jew 
behind me, come and kill him.'' That's their ideology. Free 
Palestine from the river to the sea is a code for death to 
Israel, death to America. We know that anti-Zionism is 
antisemitism. I'm very grateful that I grew up in South 
Carolina and represent South Carolina.
    At the time of the American Revolution, the largest Jewish 
population in the New World was in Charleston, South Carolina. 
The very first Provincial Constitution recognized Judaism was 
the Provincial Constitution of South Carolina. The first Jewish 
American elected official in the New World was the Provincial 
Assembly of South Carolina, and sadly the first Jewish American 
killed in the Revolution was in Charleston, South Carolina.
    That is the environment I grew up. In South Carolina we do 
not tolerate antisemitism. We promote diversity of ideology, 
equality, and we promote--additionally, ideologically 
inclusion. President Raymond, we know that unfortunately 
antisemitism has existed long before the murderous atrocities 
of October 7th, and sadly, I had the--I visited Kibbutz Nir Oz.
    I visited the music site where the slaughters occurred, the 
mass slaughters. The Committee recently learned that in 2020 
you met with a Jewish student about the severe harassment and 
cyberbullying that he was experiencing at Haverford because of 
his Jewish identity.
    In response, you allegedly gave him a book by a Buddhist 
Monk, and told him that he should accept the harassment, and 
``let it wash over.'' Should Jewish students at Haverford 
simply let the experience of antisemitism wash over them?
    Ms. Raymond. Our Jewish students, and our Jewish community 
are highly valued at Haverford. They have been an important 
part of our community for a long time. My top priority is 
ensuring the well-being and safety of all of our students.
    Mr. Wilson. I am confident you had changed policies since 
then. With this, Dr. Armstrong, you identified as an outspoken 
DEI proponent. I believe that DEI, it chills, and actually 
restricts and restrains academic freedom. It has been my view 
that diversity means no ideological diversity, no conservative.
    I remember in college with my national review, I folded it 
in half, because I did not want my professors to see. I was 
reading the writings of William F. Buckley, Jr., Seditious, 
with the equity. What that means is that all are the same 
regardless of what is the achievement level, and it denies 
equality of opportunity.
    Inclusion, again, is so political. That means no 
Republicans. I remember that I have, in my undergraduate and 
law school, one Republican professor, Professor J.D. Fudge, 
III, of Baltimore, and I knew where the others were coming 
from, and so what is your interpretation of DEI because as it 
is being experienced, it is chilling, as Mr. Cole said. What is 
your experience?
    Mr. Armstrong. Well, thank you for your question. You know, 
I got back to Cal Poly, since I have been there, we have 
focused on student success and all student success, so we can--
--
    Mr. Wilson. Does that mean equity for everybody? They all 
get the same grade?
    Mr. Armstrong. Oh, no, sir. Cal Poly is a very competitive 
university.
    Mr. Wilson. You should be.
    Mr. Armstrong. We have been admitting students under Prop 
209 has been in existence for more than 25 years in California, 
so we have been operating under an affirmative action ban 
during that time, and we have had significant changes in the 
makeup of our population because we have increased financial 
aid, and made students more able to----
    Mr. Wilson. Perhaps we can conclude. I would really like to 
know the percentage of conservatives on your--of professors, 
the percentage of Republicans, because I am sadly concerned 
there are none, or very few. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I recognize the 
gentlemen from California, Representative Takano.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I want 
to associate myself with the remarks of my colleague, Suzanne 
Bonamici. I know of no member who exemplifies more the 
principle of Tikkun Olam than her, to repair the world. I saw 
some rolling of the eyes, which is of course, people are 
entitled to their opinions, and we are a country that have 
different viewpoints.
    We must seek not only tolerance, but encouragement of a 
difference of a point of view. I too condemn antisemitism. 
Unequivocally. I condemn Islamophobia unequivocally. I condemn 
all discrimination based on religion. Universities must set 
that principle, but you know, we have a system. We have in 
place legal mechanisms to hold the universities accountable who 
receive Federal money to hold them accountable for 
discrimination that occurs on the basis of religion.
    Mr. Cole, if a student or faculty member feels that their 
Title VI Civil Rights, their ability to not be discriminated 
based on their religion, that those Title VI rights have been 
violated, what Federal agency is tasked with the investigation 
of their claim, and enforcement of the Civil Rights law?
    Mr. Cole. The Office of Civil Rights of the Department of 
Education.
    Mr. Takano. The Department of Education's Office of Civil 
Rights, which prior to the Trump administration was the largest 
Federal agency tasked with the enforcement of civil rights in 
the country, and that would include Title VI rights, which 
involve religious discrimination?
    Mr. Cole. That is right.
    Mr. Takano. How many OCR field offices have been closed 
under the Trump administration?
    Mr. Cole. My understanding is 7 of the 12, so more than 
half have been closed.
    Mr. Takano. 7 of the 12, and the remaining offices we hear 
anecdotally that some attorneys are being tasked with up to 300 
cases per staffer. How long typically does one case take to get 
resolved?
    Mr. Cole. It can take a very long time to get resolved, and 
if you cut the staff in half, it is going to take twice as 
long.
    Mr. Takano. Why does it take so long? You mentioned earlier 
in your testimony----
    Mr. Cole. It takes so long for a couple of reasons. One, is 
you actually have to look at the facts, not make broad 
allegations as this Committee seems to do but rather look at 
the actual facts of what happened, assess both sides of the 
story, not just one, then make a determination as to whether it 
is actually discrimination. Then if it actually constitutes 
discrimination, then you go to the university and you say how 
did you respond?
    If the university responded by holding a hearing and making 
an assessment, no violation has occurred. Only if the 
university was deliberately indifferent--ignored the violation, 
an established violation, is it ultimately responsible. You 
have to actually have a fair hearing. You have to look at the 
facts.
    You have to hear both sides, not simply come into a 
committee room and make broad allegations without any 
assessment of what the actual facts are.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you, Mr. Cole. I note here that we have 
universities that are near San Francisco, Chicago and 
Philadelphia, all three of those offices of OCR, Office of 
Civil Rights for the Department of Education, those field 
offices have been closed, so what would happen to a student who 
had a claim of religious discrimination in any one of these 
three universities? What is their recourse now?
    Mr. Cole. I do not think they have much recourse.
    Mr. Takano. The concern over this Committee about 
antisemitism, in reality seems to be very hollow and empty 
because they are not concerned about how you actually 
investigate and adjudicate a claim of religious discrimination. 
Am I correct?
    Mr. Cole. Right. They should be calling Secretary of 
Education McMahon before the Committee and asking her why she 
has decimated the very office that is supposed to be enforcing 
antidiscrimination law.
    Mr. Takano. Mr. Cole, do you view universities as kind of 
places of independence that government should not be imposing 
its politics on a university? I mean, I heard implied here that 
maybe there should be some influence over who gets hired as 
faculty?
    Mr. Cole. Yes. Not only do I believe that, but the Supreme 
Court believes that. It has said that academic freedom is a 
special concern of the First Amendment. What academic freedom 
means is that government officials, including Members of 
Congress, do not have the power to decide that a particular 
university has too many liberal professors, or too many 
conservative professors. That is for the university to decide.
    It does not empower members of this Committee to complain 
about DEI programs that they do not like. That is for the 
university to decide under academic freedom, under the core 
principle of the First Amendment that universities make these 
decisions, not politicians.
    Mr. Takano. I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize 
the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Stefanik.
    Ms. Stefanik. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you. A 
question for each of you. Is calling for the genocide of Jews 
protected speech on your campus, starting with Haverford?
    Ms. Raymond: No. Of course not.
    Ms. Stefanik. What disciplinary action has been taken, or 
would be taken if someone made that call?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative, there have been no such calls, 
and we would use all of our disciplinary actions to follow 
through on any such call. I would never expect that to happen 
at Haverford, and if it would, we would deal with that swiftly.
    Ms. Stefanik. Well, let me ask you a specific question 
then. There was a student group on Haverford's campus who 
called for the complete dismantling of the Apartheid settler 
colonial State of Israel by all means necessary. What does by 
all means necessary mean to you?
    Ms. Raymond. Invoking that kind of terminology is repugnant 
because of what it can mean, and I will not----
    Ms. Stefanik. So, does that depend on the context?
    Ms. Raymond. I will not defend that statement.
    Ms. Stefanik. What disciplinary action was taken against 
that group for those individuals who made that call? Any 
disciplinary action? Was there any disciplinary action taken 
against that group, or those individuals?
    Ms. Raymond. Those kinds of statements are----
    Ms. Stefanik. I am not asking you if they are repugnant, I 
am asking about the disciplinary action. You were the one 
university President who failed to lay out if any disciplinary 
action has been taken, if any suspensions or expulsions, so I 
am asking you was there any disciplinary action taken?
    Ms. Raymond. Disciplinary action can include expulsion 
and----
    Ms. Stefanik. I am not asking what it can include. I am 
asking was it taken?
    Ms. Raymond. I will not be talking about individual cases 
here, and I am saying that that is----
    Ms. Stefanik. Have there been any disciplinary actions 
taken by Haverford related to antisemitism? Any?
    Ms. Raymond. Disciplinary actions are absolutely in our 
work----
    Ms. Stefanik. Have they been taken?
    Ms. Raymond [continuing]. Against antisemitism.
    Ms. Stefanik. Have they been taken by Haverford?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes, there have been some.
    Ms. Stefanik. I want to ask you another example. There was 
a professor of mathematics and statistics, who posted after the 
October 7th Hamas terrorist attacks, ``We should never have to 
apologize for celebrating these scenes of an imprisoned people 
breaking free from their chains. This was a historic moment to 
be recorded in their history books.''
    Jewish students have reported that you said this post could 
be ``perceived in many ways.'' Does this post simply depend on 
the context, President Raymond, and were there any disciplinary 
actions taken against this professor?
    Ms. Raymond. Such posts have been incredibly harmful to our 
entire community, and I disavow them, and that outcome for us.
    Ms. Stefanik. Was there an investigation of the professor?
    Ms. Raymond. Investigations happen in all such cases.
    Ms. Stefanik. Yes, in this case?
    Ms. Raymond. Investigations happen in all such cases, as I 
have said, and we follow----
    Ms. Stefanik. This is a simple question. The other 
Presidents are answering this straightforward as to 
disciplinary action. Again, these university Presidents who are 
former Presidents, failed to answer these direct questions. In 
this case, was there disciplinary action taken on investigation 
of this professor?
    Ms. Raymond. Respectfully, Representative, I will not be 
talking about individual cases.
    Ms. Stefanik. Respectfully, President of Haverford, many 
people have sat in this position who are no longer in the 
position as President of a university for their failure to 
answer straightforward questions. Another question I have, 
because this is a theme at Haverford. There was an 
administrator who said that ``Racial minority students have 
never felt safe at Haverford, and that Jewish perspective 
students should not expect to feel safe and should instead be 
brave.''
    This was according to litigation against your college. Was 
there any investigation into this administrator for making 
those statements?
    Ms. Raymond. That report does not reflect the 
administrators that I know who stand strongly with me, and the 
entire college, against antisemitism.
    Ms. Stefanik. That did not happen is your position? Was 
that statement not made by that administrator?
    Ms. Raymond. That statement does not comport with those 
administrators that I know. No.
    Ms. Stefanik. I am not asking if it comports with the 
administrators that you know. I am saying is it your testimony 
that that statement did not happen, even though it is coming 
out in litigation? Are you saying it did not happen?
    Ms. Raymond. What I am saying is that I cannot imagine that 
happening from those colleagues of mine.
    Ms. Stefanik. Well, let me ask you, if it did happen, what 
disciplinary action would Haverford take against that 
administrator?
    Ms. Raymond. At Haverford, we do not tolerate 
discrimination or harassment, or bias.
    Ms. Stefanik. What does that mean, ``not tolerate?'' Does 
that mean suspension, firing of that individual? What does that 
mean?
    Ms. Raymond. It means following all of our policies, which 
begin with investigation, and then can lead to any of the 
aspects that you listed.
    Ms. Stefanik. For the American people watching, you still 
do not get it, Haverford still does not get it. It is a very 
different testimony than the other Presidents who are here 
today who are coming with specifics, so again, this is 
completely unacceptable, and it is why this Committee has 
stepped in because higher education has failed to address the 
scourge of antisemitism, putting Jewish students at risk at 
Haverford and other campuses across the country. I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. I recognize now 
the gentlelady from North Carolina, Ranking Member Adams.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I mean as a former 
college professor, I really hate to see we are threatening our 
leadership of these schools, but thank you Mr. Chair. We are 
here today to discuss something that should never be up for 
debate. Every student, regardless of background deserves to 
feel safe and welcome and protected on campuses, on all 
campuses, and that includes Jewish students. That includes 
Muslim students. That includes every student.
    Antisemitism is real, it is rising, and it has no place in 
our schools, our communities, or in our country. I want to be 
real clear about that. This week my office and I met with a 
group of Jewish students from Columbia, students who came to 
Washington, not to cause controversy, but to be heard.
    They told me what they are living through. Jewish students 
denied housing after participating in a protest, religious 
observances disrupted, students locked out of dining halls 
during Kosher, Passover, or unable to gather for Shabbat.
    Others disciplined for simply wearing shirts that say ICE 
off campus. Perhaps most troubling, students forced into 
antisemitism training, led by someone who really was not even 
Jewish. I share these stories not to spark outrage, but because 
they are real.
    I believe that we cannot confront hate unless we listen to 
the people living with it. When Jewish students say that they 
feel unsafe, we have to take that seriously. That also means 
upholding civil rights under Title VI, not replacing legal 
standards with partisan scorecards. That means that resourcing 
the Office for Civil Rights, not cutting it.
    That means fostering interfaith efforts that build bridges, 
not eliminating DEI programs that were designed to create 
belonging for everyone. Let me just say that plainly, Jewish 
safety and free expression are not mutually exclusive. We can, 
and we must protect both, and that is why I was encouraged to 
hear about Cal Poly's interfaith center, a space designed to 
include Jewish students, not just in name, but in purpose.
    When students gather across faiths and backgrounds to talk, 
to grieve, to organize together, that is how we build 
resilience, and that is how we push back against hate. That is 
how we remind each other that the loudest voices are not always 
the ones speaking for all of us.
    Today I do want to urge our committee to move forward 
carefully. Let us not act on face, not fear. Let us not address 
hate, not weaponize it, or let us address hate and not 
weaponize it, and let us protect students, not politicize their 
pain. It is prevention, it is education, and it is showing 
every student from the Ivy League to the community college that 
they belong.
    Dr. Raymond, we have seen members of this Committee, and 
even the President, blame diversity, equity and inclusion 
efforts for the rise of antisemitism on college campuses, but I 
have always believed DEI when done right, help build 
understanding and safety for all students. My question, how is 
your campus making sure that antisemitism is directly 
addressing your inclusion efforts, not ignored or sidelined?
    How do you ensure that Jewish students feel seen, included 
and protected in these efforts? Have you found that this kind 
of work supports Jewish students' safety, rather than 
undermines it?
    Ms. Raymond. Inclusion work at Haverford is just that. It 
includes everyone. We are committed to supporting all students 
in our Jewish community, and all of our Jewish community, and 
our work in inclusion and belonging is exactly that.
    We have three Jewish student groups on the campus who are 
very active. We have an active staff and faculty Jewish group, 
and all those come under the arch and the arc of inclusion and 
belonging.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you very much. Dr. Armstrong, in your 
written testimony you noticed that Cal Poly is establishing an 
interfaith center, which includes participation from Jewish 
students, and I have heard from students across the country who 
said that their interfaith spaces, when done thoughtfully, can 
make a real difference.
    Could you share a little bit more about how that initiative 
was developed, who was involved, and how has it helped build 
trust, or provide support for students who may feel targeted, 
especially in this tense moment on so many campuses?
    Mr. Armstrong. Well, thank you for that question. We have 
been working over a number of years to make sure all students 
have a way to connect. We have been talking with Chabad and 
Hillel about this project, as well as other religious leaders 
for several years, and you know, COVID, like anything, slowed 
us down a bit, but we view that as an opportunity where 
students can come together, where they could have the dialog.
    We recently had a presentation that brought together a 
Palestinian and an Israeli view, and it was university and 
Chabad and Hillel participating in that.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you, sir. I am out of time, and Mr. 
Chairman, I am going to have to yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. She yields back, 
and I now recognize Representative Miller, the gentlelady from 
Illinois.
    Mrs. Miller. Thank you. President Manuel, of the three 
schools represented here today, DePaul had the worst 
encampment. From the days the tents went up, the encampment on 
DePaul's campus was a hotbed of antisemitism. Signs featuring 
terrible, antisemitic slogans and images glorifying terrorism 
were displayed in the encampment.
    We saw images of a flag depicting the spokesman of the 
terrorist group Hamas. We saw a sign that said, ``Jewish safety 
cannot be achieved until Palestine is free.'' There were 
reports of people at the encampment threatening to slit Jews 
throats. One student walking through the university--well, 
there were 1,000 complaints from students and the community.
    The encampment remained in place for 17 days. President 
Manuel, how many students were suspended for their conduct at 
the encampment?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you for the question. Security and safety 
of our students is the top priority in that moment, the moment 
we realized that safety was being jeopardized, we moved with 
Chicago Police Department to abandon the encampment. Please 
know that our public safety officers are not sworn officers, 
and we need to work with CPD to make that happen.
    In review of the encampment, there were eight groups, eight 
student groups that were brought in for investigation, two of 
them were immediately suspended, and put on probation, which 
means they cannot access university resources, including 
financial resources. There were two students--I am sorry, there 
were two people that were arrested. I believe one of them was a 
student in the aftermath of that.
    What happened in the aftermath of that is we realized our 
inadequacies in that moment and were able to put together a 
culture of accountability that includes new masking and ID 
policies, new time, place and manner policies. Since that 
moment, we have been able to repel four such efforts for 
outside entities to come and take over campus properties.
    Mrs. Miller. I am glad to know that you are moving forward 
on better policies. You are saying that this encampment 
remained in place for 17 days, and over $500,000 worth of 
property damage, and you were only able to suspend two 
students?
    Mr. Manuel. I am saying that the lessons we learned from 
that moment activated it.
    Mrs. Miller. Two students--two students were arrested. I 
mean not arrested, suspended?
    Mr. Manuel. Two student groups were suspended. Two people 
were arrested, I believe one was a student.
    Mrs. Miller. For $500,000 worth of damage in 17 days. You 
got two. Woo. OK. The DePaul Student Conduct Code also states 
dismissal is a permanent separation from the university. How 
many students were dismissed from DePaul as a result of the 
encampment?
    Mr. Manuel. Our codes have been updated as a result of what 
we have learned from the encampment. From that encampment, I do 
not believe any students were permanently dismissed or 
expelled, but the new accountability code we have has prevented 
these actions from happening again.
    Mrs. Miller. Before you have your new accountability code, 
you did not have anything in place where a student was--could 
be dismissed for violence, violent speech, and for causing 
$500,000 worth of damage?
    Mr. Manuel. Anybody who caused violence or damaged property 
could go through that process. Regarding the encampment, that 
is where we learned we need to do better at applying ourselves 
to those policies, and that is where the policy engagements 
came in place, that is where the changes.
    Mrs. Miller. There were 1,000 complaints, 16 instances of 
intimidation, 4 credible threats of violence, 77 reports of 
individual safety concerns, 4 allegations of battery, 13 
harassment allegations, and at least one death threat, and you 
allowed this encampment to continue for 17 days and two people 
were suspended, none were dismissed.
    Again, President Manuel, during the encampment, one Jewish 
student told our committee last month that when she reached her 
dorm lobby, two students shouted at her, ``We don't F with the 
Zionists,'' even though she was not wearing anything to 
publicly indicate a Jewish or Israeli identity.
    She did not know either of them, but the incident made her 
think that they knew who she was. Were these individuals 
disciplined?
    Mr. Manuel. Every individual that was reported that came 
through our system was investigated and results happened. I 
agree with you, Representative.
    Mrs. Miller. Were they disciplined, suspended or dismissed?
    Mr. Manuel. I gave you the result of our--of who was 
suspended and arrested. I do not know of all the incidents that 
were there. I will tell you that the numbers that you mentioned 
were on a website that I released, so that I could educate the 
community about the dangers of that encampment. That is when we 
learned we had to do better, and we had to create a culture of 
accountability.
    Mrs. Miller. Much of the information I read earlier 
regarding hundreds of complaints and violent antisemitic 
signage had been posted online, however, the university has 
taken that website down.
    Chairman Walberg. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Mrs. Miller. Thank you.
    Chairman Walberg. Let me move on. I recognize the 
gentlelady from Georgia, Mrs. McBath.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chair, 
and also Ranking Member Scott, and thank you to our witnesses 
for taking the time to be with us here today. I also want to 
thank the students, any students that are with us, any students 
that are watching this morning. I do say that I am very, very 
sorry to those who are victims of hate crimes.
    My son, Jordan, was unfortunately killed in a racially 
motivated shooting, so I know what it is like for your family 
to be attacked solely because of who you are, or how you were 
born.
    Antisemitism remains a growing threat on college campuses 
today, but the actions taken by President Trump and House 
Republicans seem to be motivated more by going viral on social 
media, than rooting out antisemitism and other forms of hatred 
on campus and in our society.
    The actions taken and supported by the majority will not 
improve this situation. They will only foster distrust between 
ethnic and religious groups on and both off campus. Instead of 
taking real steps to address antisemitism, the majority has 
chosen to cut the funding and fire the Federal employees that 
are tasked with responding to these incidents on our school 
grounds.
    They have paused, and threatened funding meant to protect 
synagogues, and other Jewish community centers from shootings 
and other threats through the nonprofit security and targeting 
violence and terrorism prevention grant programs.
    They have pardoned and defended the actions of violent 
felons and rabid antisemites, criminals that were directly 
involved in attacking police and killing an officer here on 
Capitol Hill January 6th.
    When white supremacists marched through the University of 
Virginia wielding torches with the purpose of publicly 
intimidating Jews and other minorities, the President said that 
they were very fine people on both sides. They are not the 
actions of a party or a President who is engaging in good faith 
to address this very real crisis and problem.
    Any attempt to explain away one of the oldest forms of 
ethnic and religious hatred, solely for political gain is truly 
a disservice to the American people. It cheapens and it 
undermines the centuries of sacrifice and interfaith struggle 
to build bridges, and take the difficult, but very necessary 
steps that will bring peace, and allow people to practice their 
faith free from intolerance.
    Fighting antisemitism should not be used as a political 
tool. The work is simply too important, and the stakes are 
simply too high. Today, my State is home to the largest Jewish 
population in the deep south. Georgia has become a beacon of 
prosperity for Jewish families, hoping to live together in 
peace, free from judgment regarding their faith, but it has not 
always been this way.
    I live just a few miles from the site of one of the most 
heinous and violent acts of antisemitism in the history of this 
country, the lynching of Leo Frank. I have been to the halls of 
names at Yad Beshim in Jerusalem a number of times. It takes 
commitment from every single one of us to ensure that the 
atrocities of the past never repeat themselves.
    I ask the American people, and all those who care, truly 
care about religious freedom in this country, all those who 
want this country to live up to the promise that all of us, 
every single one of us is created equal, to compare what they 
hear from my Republican colleagues today, to the actions that 
they take when the cameras are not rolling, and I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. I thank the 
gentlelady for her experience that informs her as well. Now, I 
recognize the gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms. McClain.
    Ms. McClain. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I happen to agree 
with my colleague, actions speak louder than words, and we need 
action. That is what I hope that we see here today, not just, 
you know, in the week leading up to this hearing we all of a 
sudden find a conscious and start action.
    Let me start with you, Dr. Manuel. On October 18th, 1923, 
DePaul Students for Justice in Palestine held a rally calling 
for the Intifada Revolution, encouraging terrorist attacks to 
be perpetuated against Jewish civilians.
    On the same day, Jewish student leaders contacted DePaul 
administrators, expressing feelings of increasingly--saying 
that they were increasingly scared that the safety, and for the 
safety of the Jewish community. Does that ring a bell?
    OK. The following day, October 19th, 2023, Pro Hamas 
rallies on campus resulted in the physical assault of a Jewish 
student. Sound familiar? Six months later, on April 29, 1924, a 
Pro Palestinian and Pro Hamas mob occupied DePaul's Lincoln 
Park Campus, so there was an encampment on April 29th, correct?
    Mr. Manuel. Correct.
    Ms. McClain. Did you remove or disable it on that day?
    Mr. Manuel. No, we did not.
    Ms. McClain. OK. Why?
    Mr. Manuel. Representative, we learned an awful lot from--
--
    Ms. McClain. I am not asking what you learned. I am asking 
why you made the decision because I am going to refer you to 
your policy that you have in place. Why did you not follow your 
policy?
    Mr. Manuel. Our immediate instinct was to work with our 
students, the reference----
    Ms. McClain. How did that go?
    Mr. Manuel. Not very well.
    Ms. McClain. Do you want to ask Michael how that went?
    Mr. Manuel. Yes. It did not go very well.
    Ms. McClain. Thank you.
    Mr. Manuel. I apologize for that.
    Ms. McClain. Your apologies are a little hollow. On May 
10th, you issued a statement, so the encampment is still there, 
April 29th, it is now May 10th. On May 10th you issued a 
statement titled quad safety concerns, so you knew there was a 
safety issue, hence, issuing the statement. Here was the 
statement, you urged all members of the DePaul community to 
avoid the quad.
    Well, that is great. Again, hey, let us make sure that we 
attack the law-abiding citizens, but not deal with the problem 
of the encampment. You knew yourself there was a problem but 
decided not to remove it. Why?
    Mr. Manuel. At that moment we realized that the security 
and safety of everybody was in jeopardy. That is the moment 
that we decided to work with CPD.
    Ms. McClain. It took you 6 days?
    Mr. Manuel. Our public safety officer----
    Ms. McClain. I mean no, it took you 6 days because you knew 
it was dangerous. You did not remove it on the 10th. You did 
not remove it until 6 days later, so it took you 6 days to 
coordinate an effort to remove an encampment?
    Mr. Manuel. It took us, the moment we realized, we went to 
CPD, and asked for their----
    Ms. McClain. Which was when? When did you realize you had a 
problem?
    Mr. Manuel. We started working with CPD from the first day, 
so that they were aware of those situations.
    Ms. McClain. OK, so 3 weeks. It took you 3 weeks?
    Mr. Manuel. It took us from the time you mentioned until 
the 16th or 17th to coordinate with CPD to get them.
    Ms. McClain. Do you think that is acceptable?
    Mr. Manuel. I do not.
    Ms. McClain. OK. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. I don't 
think the issue is more policies, I think the issue is action, 
so the people that are in charge, would you say that that is an 
acceptable amount of time for action?
    Mr. Manuel. I would agree with you that we need to do 
better.
    Ms. McClain. Great. Would you agree with me also that 
almost 3 weeks from the 29th to the 16th is not an acceptable 
time for security to take action to disassemble an encampment? 
Would you agree with me on that?
    Mr. Manuel. I would, and----
    Ms. McClain. Thank you very much. Who has been fired, or 
who has been replaced, because that does not seem real tough to 
me. Anybody?
    Mr. Manuel. What we have learned----
    Ms. McClain. Anybody been replaced?
    Mr. Manuel. There has been turnover.
    Ms. McClain. I am not asking turnover. What consequences 
happened for the people who were supposed to be in charge?
    Mr. Manuel. The development of our accountability----
    Ms. McClain. Any consequences? Yes? Were there--just, let 
us start with a simple, let us start with a simple one. Any 
consequences?
    Mr. Manuel. To student groups, yes.
    Ms. McClain. No, not just, I am talking to the people who 
did not follow your procedures of 3 weeks because let me just 
read it just in case you do not know your policy but let me 
read it. This is from your policy. ``May not impede passage in 
or out of any facility, may not involve activity that is 
violent, or otherwise threatens the safety of demonstrators, or 
any members of the community.
    May not interfere with business or academics of the 
university. These are your policies that--did anyone get like 
reprimanded for that?
    Mr. Manuel. What I mentioned is that we had done 
significant review and learned from this. Our----
    Ms. McClain. You do not need to do review. Did anyone, was 
anyone held accountable, other than Michael, and his friend 
that sustained a concussion and a broken wrist? What actions 
changed? You have got great policies, and you have got great 
lip service.
    The problem is you need action, and unless you, as the 
President of the university is willing to take action, not lip 
service, I can talk about working out all day long, but there 
is a lot of difference between me working out, and me talking 
about it.
    My question is----
    Chairman Walberg. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Ms. McClain. If there is another encampment on it, are you 
taking it down that next day?
    Chairman Walberg. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Mr. Manuel. Yes.
    Ms. McClain. Thank you.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady, now I recognize 
the gentlewoman from Connecticut, Representative Hayes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Good morning, and thank you to our witnesses 
for being here, and to all of the students who are following 
along and paying attention to this hearing. It is incredibly 
painful for me as a Member of Congress to sit and witness 
antisemitism and discrimination against students on college 
campuses being politicized over and over and over again.
    As the Ranking Member stated, we have had eight hearings on 
this topic. There are members on the other side who only show 
up for hearings on this topic, and yet, no real action has been 
done. When we talk about actions that are taken, I heard 
members talking about property damage.
    There was over 2 billion dollars in property damage and 
expenses to taxpayers as a result of the January 6th 
insurrection, and the President gave sweeping clemency to 1,600 
people, and it has been celebrated by the other side.
    A Confederate flag was flown inside of the United States 
Capitol for the first time in our history, and the people who 
did that are being celebrated. We have to take a stand against 
discrimination in all forms on this Committee, and all students 
on all campuses should feel free from discrimination, and 
protected, and have the right to learn in an environment.
    To the college Presidents, you will find no safe harbor 
here if you have not taken actions, and steps to ensure that 
students are safe on your campuses, all students. Hostility and 
prejudice against Jewish students is wrong, and similarly other 
students who are not feeling safe on campuses is also wrong, 
and this Committee has done nothing.
    Actually, some of the actions taken by this Committee have 
targeted some of those students and literally made them unsafe 
on campus. We need to all agree that discrimination is 
intolerable on college campuses, and you have a duty and a 
responsibility to ensure that the civil rights of students are 
protected.
    I have a bunch of questions, but because I want to know 
about actions, but just please yes, or no. I am going to just 
go down. Dr. Raymond, are you prioritizing the physical safety 
of students on your campus today?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes. Safety is top priority.
    Mrs. Hayes. Dr. Manuel, do you believe that teaching the 
history of discrimination, even when it is painful is 
incredibly important for our institutions of higher education?
    Mr. Manuel. Yes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Dr. Cole, have you clarified and publicized the 
rules surrounding campus protests for all students to see?
    Mr. Cole. I am not speaking here on behalf of Georgetown, 
but we have a clear policy at Georgetown.
    Mrs. Hayes. Is it publicized?
    Mr. Cole. Absolutely. It is on our website. I was the Chair 
of the working group on free speech and campus culture. We 
believe in free speech, and we believe in protecting people 
from discrimination, and we believe in making a distinction 
between the two, which unfortunately, many members of this 
Committee do not believe in.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. Dr. Armstrong, have you implemented 
reporting mechanisms for incidents of bias on your campus?
    Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Dr. Raymond, have you clarified and raised 
awareness around university standards for anti-discrimination 
educational programs?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes, we have.
    Mrs. Hayes. Dr. Manuel, do you believe that it is important 
that students see themselves reflected in the faculty at your 
university?
    Mr. Manuel. I do. Ideologically, and every other category 
as well, yes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Dr. Cole, not on behalf of your university, but 
are students allowed to connect and engage with members in 
faith-based groups on campus, so that they can express their 
ideas and ideologies in a protected way?
    Mr. Cole. On every campus that I am aware of, yes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. Dr. Armstrong, have you convened a 
task force to combat anti-discrimination on campus?
    Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Dr. Manuel, do you understand the role of the 
Office of Civil Rights--the role that the Office of Civil 
Rights at the Department of Education plays in protecting 
students from discrimination at colleges and universities, and 
do you think that this would be helpful as you move forward 
trying to keep students safe on campus?
    Mr. Manuel. I do, and the OCR has been very helpful in 
helping us understand how to comply with the law.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. With that, I think that this 
Committee should be working on keeping OCR together to help you 
enforce these policies moving forward, so that all students are 
protected on college campuses. With that I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. I now recognize 
the gentleman from North Carolina, Representative Harris.
    Mr. Harris. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you to all 
the panelists that have been a part of this day, for your 
perseverance and your time. I want to address a question to 
President Raymond. President Raymond, days after the October 
7th attack on Israel, Haverford College released a statement 
that highlighted tragedies across the globe that occurred, 
``since the start of the semester.''
    The email mentioned earthquakes in Morocco and Afghanistan, 
wildfires in the United States and Canada, and a 2-year long 
war in Ukraine. The email only made a passing reference, and I 
quote, ``The outbreak of war in Israel and Gaza that had taken 
place just 48 hours before.''
    We all know in this room October 7th, was not a mutual 
``outbreak of war between two countries.'' In fact, it was a 
terrorist attack by Hamas on Israel. Babies were butchered. 
Women were raped. 1,200 innocents were slaughtered, and over 
250 people were kidnapped.
    I have to ask, why did Haverford lack the moral clarity to 
immediately and clearly condemn the attack on Israel?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative Harris, we did condemn the 
attack by Hamas on Israel, and it was not--you are correct, in 
that email, which I was responsible for. I would do it 
differently now. This is an example of a difficult period of 
learning where I did not get it right.
    Mr. Harris. OK. You say in your testimony, and I have read 
your testimony beforehand, the written testimony we received, 
that ``any failures and fractures at Haverford are ultimately 
my responsibility as President.'' Do you take responsibility 
for this failure to call the attack what it was immediately?
    Ms. Raymond. I take responsibility for the judgment about 
that communication, that is right.
    Mr. Harris. OK. Well, on January 4th, 2024, an anonymous 
author, presumably a Haverford student, published an article on 
the political science department website, expressing dismay for 
the response of the campus to October 7th.
    The article highlights the morally bankrupt responses of 
students to the violence, for example, sharing how students 
posted phrases like, ``Freedom has only ever been achieved 
through resistance. Stand with Palestinian resistance.''
    The author wrote in reaction to seeing these statements 
posted on his or her classmates that, ``Up until October 7th, I 
had truly believed that at a liberal arts institution like 
Haverford, there was no place for antisemitism, but I do not 
know how else to label cheering the death of innocent Jews.''
    Many student activists across the country have used the 
slogan, ``Resistance is justified when people are occupied,'' 
as their motivation for praising the violence that was 
perpetrated against Israel. I ask you, President Raymond, yes 
or no, was the October 7th attack on Israel justified?
    Ms. Raymond. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Harris. Thank you, ma'am.
    Ms. Raymond. No.
    Mr. Harris. I agree, and it is good to hear you confirm 
that, and I certainly hope and pray that students around the 
country, including those enrolled at Haverford, come to realize 
this very thing as well. I want to turn in my last minute or so 
to President Manuel. I want to ask you a series of questions if 
I will.
    Have there been violent protests on your campus in response 
to the war in Sudan?
    Mr. Manuel. Not that I am aware of.
    Mr. Harris. Did DePaul experience encampments over the war 
in Ukraine?
    Mr. Manuel. Also, not that I am aware of.
    Mr. Harris. Have there been chants calling for the 
eradication of other people groups on your campus besides the 
Jewish people?
    Mr. Manuel. Again, not that I am aware of.
    Mr. Harris. Thank you, sir. I think we all know why there 
is no such focus on the world. Well, there is such a focus on 
the world's only Jewish State. Unfortunately, antisemitism has 
been spreading like wildfire among our Nation's campuses, and 
as a result, anything Israel does to defend itself and its 
people faces increased scrutiny that no other nation on earth 
seems to face.
    I am glad we are having this hearing today, and I commend 
our chairman for helping us shine a light on this very 
important problem that is plaquing American higher education. 
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back my time.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman, and I recognize 
the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Casar.
    Mr. Casar. The Republican majority has called a hearing on 
antisemitism, and so I have some questions for my colleagues on 
the Committee. Donald Trump said after neo-Nazis marched 
through Charlottesville that they were, ``very fine people on 
both sides.''
    If you condemn Donald Trump saying this, will you raise 
your hand? RFK, the head of Health and Human Services, spread 
an antisemitic conspiracy theory that COVID was engineered to 
target white and black people, but spare Jewish people. If you 
condemn the head of the U.S. Health and Human Services for 
spreading this antisemitic conspiracy theory, will you please 
raise your hand? Nobody.
    Chairman Walberg. I suggest the hearing is to question the 
witnesses that are here who have spent time and energy to come 
here today.
    Mr. Casar. I have a question for you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Walberg. I think the questioning is--I am not on 
the witness stand.
    Mr. Casar. Mr. Chairman, this is my time, and I am happy to 
ask you then. Would you condemn Donald Trump for pardoning a 
January 6th rioter who praised Hitler, and encouraged more 
killing of Jewish people? Mr. Chairman, since you just used 
some of my time, you can use more of it. Will you condemn Trump 
for pardoning an antisemitic rioter?
    Chairman Walberg. I am seeing four witnesses waiting for 
your question.
    Mr. Casar. I am asking you a question, Mr. Chairman. Your 
microphone works. Do you condemn this?
    Chairman Walberg. I will yield time to the witnesses to 
answer questions that are pertinent.
    Mr. Casar. Clearly, Mr. Chairman, not a single Republican 
today has been willing to condemn any of this antisemitism. 
Unfortunately, the party of very fine people on both sides, or 
Jewish space lasers, does not give a damn about stopping 
antisemitism.
    If my Republican colleagues want to stop the spread of 
antisemitism, maybe they should stop apologizing for and 
promoting antisemites. With all due respect to the 
Congresswoman from New York, who is back to join us, if 
Republicans want to fight antisemitism, they should not go 
groveling to the most antisemitic President in modern American 
history.
    They should not be trying to quell questions about the 
antisemitism that we see at the White House and in the cabinet 
at the Department of Health and Human Services. In my city of 
Austin, Swastikas have been drawn on the doors of schoolhouses. 
Synagogues have been firebombed. Antisemitism is an assault on 
our community safety, and on all of our values.
    We could do something to combat antisemitism. In Congress, 
we could strengthen the Department of Education's Office of 
Civil Rights, but instead, Trump has cut it, and my Republican 
colleagues have done nothing about it. Congress could 
strengthen anti-hate crime programs, to address antisemitic 
violence.
    Trump has cut those programs. Again, Republican Members of 
Congress have done nothing about it. We could fully fund the 
security programs we have for Jewish nonprofits and synagogues, 
but Trump has frozen those programs.
    Republicans have called this hearing on antisemitism, but 
they have cut back our ability to address hate crimes, have cut 
back our ability to protect synagogues, have cut back our 
ability to protect students from discrimination.
    What they have ramped up is deporting students for writing 
op-eds in their campus newspaper advocating for peace. What 
they have ramped up is arresting nonviolent professors and 
students, Jewish and not Jewish, just because they dare talk 
about the killing and starvation in Gaza.
    This hearing, called by the Republican majority, is all 
about Trump Republicans distorting the definition of 
antisemitism to silence anyone, including Jewish students, who 
speak out non-violently against what the Israeli government is 
doing. The Republican plan is not about keeping Jewish students 
safe. It is about keeping the Israeli government safe from any 
form of criticism.
    That is a disservice to the truth. It is a disservice to us 
and our job as Members of Congress, and it is a disservice to 
the safety of everyone, including and especially Jewish 
Americans. I yield back
    Chairman Walberg. The gentleman yields, and now I recognize 
the Chairman Emeritus of this Committee, the gentlelady from 
North Carolina, Ms. Foxx.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our 
witnesses for being here today. President Raymond, in August 
2024, Guangtian Ha, a religious professor at Haverford wrote on 
X that, ``The State of Israel must be dismantled, and the 
society denazified. Zionism is Nazism, it is Fascism, Zionists 
areracist.''
    Professor Ha also wrote, ``The only way to deal with 
Zionists is to stop talking to them and refuse to let them 
waste your time. Liberal Zionists, in particular. And I learned 
a new term, reluctant Zionist, and I guess there were plenty of 
reluctant Nazis too, perhaps the majority of them were.''
    Do you believe there is a distinction between anti-Zionism 
and antisemitism?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative Foxx, first I want to----
    Mrs. Foxx. Just a quick answer, yes or no.
    Ms. Raymond. I want to say that we support all of our 
Zionist students, staff and faculty at Haverford, and we are 
squarely against antisemitism.
    Mrs. Foxx. Do you believe anti-Zionism is any more 
acceptable than antisemitism?
    Ms. Raymond. Antisemitism is unacceptable. There is no 
place for it.
    Mrs. Foxx. How about anti-Zionism?
    Ms. Raymond. There is room for criticizing the government 
of any nation.
    Mrs. Foxx. The State of Israel has existed for almost 80 
years. Under the premise of anti-Zionism, the Jewish State as 
it exists today should not exist. Is that what you believe that 
Israel should not exist?
    Ms. Raymond. Pardon me, that is not at all what I said, or 
what I meant here.
    Mrs. Foxx. OK. What are anti-Zionists actually advocating 
for when the Jewish State has existed for nearly 80 years? 80 
decades, excuse me, 8 decades?
    Ms. Raymond. I do not support those statements at all.
    Mrs. Foxx. That is a professor at your university. On the 
extreme, this means the genocide of Israelis. At the very least 
it reveals national origin discrimination violations done in 
programs or activities in higher ed. Dr. Raymond, do you 
believe that Professor Ha's instance that Zionists should not 
be engaged with, and that they should be compared to Nazis, 
could be a violation of the Department of Education Civil 
Rights protections, yes or no?
    Ms. Raymond. We do not tolerate discrimination, harassment 
or bias at Haverford College, and----
    Mrs. Foxx. For Dr. Armstrong, according to reports, Cal 
Poly's history department hosted U.C. Berkeley Professor Ussama 
Makdisi, a self avowed anti-Zionist. Do you believe anti-
Zionism could constitute national origin discrimination, yes or 
no?
    Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
    Mrs. Foxx. Dr. Manuel, does DePaul University support BDS?
    Mr. Manuel. We do not, and we have come out strongly 
against it, at least in the two and half years that I have been 
there including a rebuke of a student government.
    Mrs. Foxx. Will you supply that statement to me after this?
    Mr. Manuel. I would be happy to.
    Mrs. Foxx. Dr. Armstrong, does Cal Poly support BDS?
    Mr. Armstrong. No.
    Mrs. Foxx. Dr. Manuel, it is my understanding you gave in 
to some demands made by the student coalition behind DePaul's 
violent antisemitic May 24 encampment, even though the 
encampment had to be forcibly removed. The encampment coalition 
demanded that DePaul eliminate, ``Discriminatory study abroad 
programs, trips to Israel, that propagandize and normalize that 
occupation.''
    As you may know, this has been a key goal of antisemitic 
BDS activists at universities across the U.S. In June, DePaul 
said it agreed to discuss inclusivity with regard to its Israel 
study abroad program. Does inclusivity mean--what does it mean 
in this context?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you for the question. The ten demands 
that were delivered by the students were rejected, and none of 
them were adhered to. None of them were agreed to.
    Mrs. Foxx. OK. What my question is, what does inclusivity 
mean?
    Mr. Manuel. I believe that the program you are talking 
about, students were concerned that there was a limitation on 
who could take it based on visas given from Israel, and we 
still support that program.
    Mrs. Foxx. Do you commit to continuing the university study 
abroad program in Israel?
    Mr. Manuel. I commit to studying--to continuing all study 
abroad programs through and compliant with the law.
    Mrs. Foxx. Do you reject--do you commit to rejecting 
changes that demonize or delegitimize Israel?
    Mr. Manuel. Yes.
    Mrs. Foxx. Do you commit to ensuring that the study abroad 
program affirms the Jewish people's right to self-
determination?
    Mr. Manuel. Yes. I believe self-determination and the right 
for Israel to exist is a primary function.
    Mrs. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady, and I recognize 
the gentleman from Georgia, Representative Allen.
    Mr. Allen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank our 
witnesses for being here today. Obviously, and you have heard 
this over and over, we are all extremely troubled by the 
antisemitic activities occurring on college campuses across the 
country. Our country has made tremendous strides in hopefully 
getting along with our friends from all over the world.
    Our institutions of higher education seem to be serving as 
breeding grounds for antisemitic activities. This antisemitic 
rhetoric has reached institutions beyond just the so-called 
elite schools, like Columbia or Harvard, which we had 
questioned some time ago.
    As I stated before, as the oldest and most established 
democracy in the region, Israel exemplifies the core values of 
freedom and democracy. Jerusalem is the center of the universe. 
A lot of people think Washington is, but that is where it is 
going to happen.
    Of course, you know, for those who are familiar with the 
Bible, the book of the Word of God, Gensis 12:3 states, ``I 
will bless those who bless you,'' talking about Israel. ``And 
whoever curses you I will curse.'' And that is a serious issue. 
In fact, it also goes on to say that all nations will be 
blessed through Israel.
    In fact, in John 4:22, Jesus said, ``Salvation, even for 
gentiles will come through the Jews.'' Dr. Cole, this is a 
serious, serious issue we are talking about. In fact, it has 
eternal consequences, and I mean DePaul President, Dr. Robert 
Manuel, with that being said, antisemitic extremist group 
behind enemy lines continues to trespass on DePaul's campus and 
harass Jewish students.
    This is the same group that made a wanted poster featuring 
a Jewish Israeli student at DePaul. In January, the group 
handed out flyers on campus that urged students to get 
dangerous. Then, just this past March the group was able to 
infiltrate a DePaul building as part of its week of defiance.
    Dr. Manuel, were any arrests made in either of these 
instances?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you for the question, Representative. 
Once we saw that post we immediately trespassed BEL from our 
campus. We are an urban campus with many public streets and 
right of ways. We are working with our elected officials to see 
if there is not more we can do to stop the harassment of BEL 
against our students.
    Mr. Allen. Were any of these students arrested?
    Mr. Manuel. We can be--we kept BEL from being on our 
campus. We had a number of occasions where they were involved 
in protests. Our relationship with CPD prevented them from 
coming onto our campus to engage our students.
    Mr. Allen. What are you doing to prevent this from 
happening again?
    Mr. Manuel. We are training our public safety officers. We 
are working with the aldermen, the elected officials in our 
area to see if we cannot get broader protections in the public 
space, and we continue to report things like you mentioned in 
social media both to the FBI and to the CPD, and to the Chicago 
Police.
    Mr. Allen. President Raymond let us talk about restorative 
practices, a group to resolve disciplinary issues in your 
university. Directors of the group, Dr. Mahn McHenry and Dr. 
Jill Stauffer, both publicly support the academic boycott of 
Israel, and Dr. McHenry is a member of the Haverford Faculty 
for Justice in Palestine.
    On December 24 liked an Instagram post glorifying a member 
of the popular front of the liberation of Palestine, a U.S. 
designed terrorist organization with a history of murdering 
Jews. The caption reading, ``From the River to the Sea, 
Palestine will be free.'' Would a Jewish student feel 
comfortable with Dr. McHenry leading restorative practice, 
given her glorification of violence against Israel?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative, we are committed to supporting 
our entire Jewish community. We are proud of it, and 
intersections with all aspects of our disciplinary processes 
are ones that I take very seriously. They must be done well.
    Mr. Allen. Well, it would seem that you would put into 
practice those things that I mean, your--I mean we are hearing, 
and it has been, if the testimony is correct about what is 
going on in these campuses, but you know, the action that we 
are hearing, you know, like I said we have got to fix this, and 
so with that I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize 
the gentleman from Utah, Vice Chairman of this Committee, 
Representative Owens.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is really 
unfortunate that it has been over a year since our first 
hearing on antisemitism, a year and a half since October 7th. 
It was talked about and still talk about rooting out 
antisemitism on our college campuses.
    The division of our educational institutions from our very 
founding has been taxed, and aspirations of our Nation State in 
the Preamble of the Constitution to become a more perfect 
union. We are failing our kids. What we are getting instead, 
students graduate with enormous debt, knowing nothing about our 
country's history, culture, vision, or sacrifices.
    Students are angry, lacking common sense and common decency 
toward anyone who looks different than them, or holds a 
different opinion. Our education institutions become the 
feeding grounds for Marxists, an ideology that abhors our 
culture of faith, family, the free market and wisdom through 
education. Young people who supposedly are our future leaders, 
are being taught to hate America, hate Israel.
    They have no shame in running around in gangs, hiding their 
faces as they burn and break other people's property. They 
intimidate, threaten and attack people who they do not know, 
because they have been taught to hate by their college 
professors. These cowardly bullies feel no threat about 
accountability because apparently the adults in charge have 
empowered them to negotiate the antisemitism, antisemitic views 
on their terms.
    We are seeing too many words, and too little action. As an 
observation as someone who grew up in the deep south, 1960's 
Jim Crow's deep south, the KKK will love the environment that 
we are now seeing on too many of our colleges. Many of them 
would have graduated with honors.
    With our new administration and a majority in the House and 
the Senate, this is going to come to a screeching halt. 
Accountability is back. Dr. Raymond, Haverford's social honor 
code, where students are required to place to the net, states 
that the acts of discrimination, micro-aggression and 
harassment, including and not limited to acts of racism, 
sexism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, ablism, which I have 
no idea what that is;
    Tokenism, coach or insensitivity, discrimination based on 
citizenship status, discrimination based on religion, and 
discrimination based on natural origin, accent, dialect, or 
usage of the English language are devoid of respect, and 
therefore by definition violate this code.
    First of all, Dr., who made this code? Who are the authors 
of this code of conduct?
    Ms. Raymond. Our Honor Code, which is both governing our 
social action and academics at Haverford, is written by 
students and approved by students, and I take responsibility.
    Mr. Owens. It sounds like it. OK, yes. Thank you. Thank 
you. It sounds like students that have been taught how to be 
Marxists by the way. Part of this--the uses of the English 
language, is that now a form of discrimination? I see this in 
the code. The usage of the English language. What does that 
have to do with the Code of Conduct?
    Ms. Raymond. We are actively revising that code to better 
meet the moment.
    Mr. Owens. All right. They also State that Haverford 
students commit to being--just a second here, commit to being 
actively anti-racist, and particularly commit to reject an 
anti-blackness, recognizing white privilege, challenging 
structures of whiteness and white comfort, and crediting the 
work of black, indigenous and people of color, and especially 
women of color.
    Are Jewish people considered white privileged by chance?
    Ms. Raymond. We do not tolerate any discrimination or bias 
at the college, and as I said, that code is under active 
revision.
    Mr. Owens. I would suggest that you put somebody in charge 
that are adults, all right, because obviously, this is from 
folks who have been trained how to hate. Now it is becoming a 
policy of the college, it should not be acceptable.
    Dr. Manuel, first of all I am impressed with the actions 
you are saying you are going to take. We look forward to 
following up on that. I think part of the problem is what is 
the teaching that is going on in between.
    You have someone, Terrin Webb, who made some very appalling 
statements about Jewish people--says, ``The historical fact 
that American Jewish immigrants have always been the 
foundational building block for white supremacist 
infrastructure in this country.''
    He also said, ``The State of Israel, much like U.S., is 
facilitating a white supremacist racial cast.'' Let me just say 
this. Leadership has to figure out how to get rid of this rot 
within your colleges. It is great to say these great things, 
but if you have people that hate our kids, and hate each other, 
and teach that, this has not changed.
    We will have to address it on the Federal level if we 
cannot change it on your area, OK, so with that I yield back. I 
yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize 
the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Messmer.
    Mr. Messmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the 
witnesses for being here today. President Raymond, despite your 
opening statement that you condemn antisemitism, multiple 
Jewish students on the campus you preside over report feeling 
ostracized by the sole fact they are Jewish. Do you think 
Haverford still has an antisemitic problem?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative, I know that the effects of 
what has happened at Haverford have been very concerning, to me 
and to many of our Jewish students, staff and faculty. It has 
been a troubling time for many of us, and we are working to 
combat antisemitism.
    Mr. Messmer. OK. Well, other than describing as being 
antisemitic, how else would you describe the campus where a 
Jewish student wrote that multiple classmates have refused to 
speak to me after learning I am Jewish, or how could you 
possibly interrupt signs at a protest that say, 
``Decolonization is not a metaphor.''
    Those Harvard faculty and students participating in these 
acts are sending a clear message to the Jewish student body, or 
anyone, any student with ties to Israel. You are not welcome 
here, and its termination of Israel and the Jewish people who 
sought refuge there is our goal.'' This is a very serious 
matter.
    One student said they felt safer in Israel, which is a 
combat zone, than attending your school in the fall. They 
wrote, ``I'm scared. I'm not going to learn, and I'm not going 
to be safe.'' President Raymond, are you comfortable with 
Haverford driving away Jewish students that have been accepted 
for admission, or are you going to establish more useless 
listening sessions, and ad hoc committees, or putting out bland 
statements approved by lawyers to cover your legal obligations?
    Is that really what your students at Haverford deserve?
    Ms. Raymond. What you read, Representative, pains me 
deeply. Those experiences of our Haverford students are not 
experiences that they should have on our campus or anywhere. I 
commit to the work of this campus to making it a much more 
welcoming place for all of our Jewish students, and staff and 
faculty.
    Mr. Messmer. Thank you. Are protests calling for the 
genocide of Jews a violation of your university's rules or code 
of ethics? If they are, and such statements are made, what is 
the repercussion for students and faculty who make them?
    Ms. Raymond. Such calls are horrific, and absolutely not 
acceptable anywhere in the world. No such calls have been made 
at Haverford College. Any such calls would be, of course, 
followed up immediately with all of our disciplinary processes.
    Mr. Messmer. What would that discipline be?
    Ms. Raymond. The discipline would be what that process 
would eventually call for.
    Mr. Messmer. All right. Dr. Manuel, how about at your 
university? If there is a protest calling for the genocide of 
Jews, what would be the repercussion for a student or faculty 
that made them?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you. Representative, anybody who would 
make those kinds of statements for the genocide or killing of 
anybody would be immediately brought in through our 
adjudication processes. The result would be anything up to and 
including an expulsion.
    Mr. Messmer. Dr. Armstrong, same thing?
    Mr. Armstrong. Yes, sir. Anyone calling for the deal of any 
group or harassing or discriminating would be subject to 
discipline.
    Mr. Messmer. What would that discipline be?
    Mr. Armstrong. Well, for students it could be suspension. 
It could be, if repeated, expulsion, and then we also have 
procedures for our faculty and staff that result in discipline.
    Mr. Messmer. Thank you. Dr. Manuel, instead of checking IDs 
for protectors that are wearing masks, why not prohibit the 
wearing of masks for those that are protesting? How is that 
part of their free speech rights?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you. We have people on our campus who are 
immunocompromised, folks have religious beliefs, we wanted to 
accommodate that. We also wanted to prevent people from evading 
identification during critical moments on campus.
    What I mentioned in my ID masking policy that we adopted, 
is part of the larger culture of creating accountability, the 
changes in our time, place and manner, the additional 30 
percent spent on our public safety, the bringing in of the ADL 
expert to help a Jewish engagement.
    Together they represent a changed action in the way that we 
hold ourselves accountable to our community.
    Mr. Messmer. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank you for all 
being here, and I yield back my time.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman, and I recognize 
the gentlelady from Minnesota, Ms. Omar.
    Ms. Omar. Thank you, Chairman. It is abundantly clear that 
the cynical work of the majority party on this Committee is now 
being expanded and weaponized by the administration seeking to 
squash dissent. We are seeing the heavy hand of the State 
through this administration and the body being brought down 
against students and faculty for engaging in protected speech.
    We saw this in the case of Mahmoud Khalil, who on March 8th 
became one of the first student activists to be detained by 
ICE, despite not being criminally charged, and despite the 
agents lying about having a warrant.
    We saw this in the case of Mohsen Mahdawi who was abducted 
by ICE at a citizenship neutralization interview for his role 
in campus protests. We saw this in the case of Rumeysa Ozturk 
who was accosted in broad daylight by a group of masked, and 
unidentified agents after writing a critical article in her 
student newspaper last year.
    There have been more. Georgetown Professor Badar Khan Suri, 
Ph.D. candidate, Ranjani, Sherif Ni Vassan, a 21 year-old 
student, Yu Son Jang, and many more. Political protests, 
antiwar protests, Pro-Palestinian protest.
    This is all protected speech under the First Amendment, 
regardless of citizenship status. Using immigration authorities 
to target, abduct, and illegally detain non-citizens for their 
activism is a clear violation of their rights and a hallmark of 
an authoritarian government.
    As Mahmoud Khalil wrote, from inside the Louisiana 
Detention Center where he remained for 60 days, who has the 
right to have rights? As Mohsen Mahdawi wrote after being freed 
from detention, when they look at my case all Americans should 
ask themselves what is left of our democracy, and who will be 
targeted next?
    In 1987, almost 40 years ago, eight immigrants in Los 
Angeles were arrested as a result of their pro-Palestinian 
activism. In a shockingly similar circumstances, as the arrests 
and abductions by ICE that we are seeing today. Professor Cole, 
you legally represented the LA8 for 20 years against the U.S. 
Government, as the charges were dismissed. The Judge called the 
proceedings an embarrassment to the rule of law.
    What similarities have you seen between that cold war Era 
case and the cases we are seeing today, and what findings were 
made at the time regarding the First Amendment rights of 
noncitizens?
    Mr. Cole. Thank you for that question. There are many 
parallels. The charges actually against the group of 
Palestinian students back then, the initial charges were being 
advocates of world communism. The McCarthyism trope was used 
against them at that time.
    We challenged that provision of the McCarran-Walter Act in 
Court, arguing that all people in the United States have First 
Amendment rights, whether you are a citizen or a noncitizen. 
The Supreme Court has said even corporations have speech rights 
because the First Amendment protects speech, not speakers, and 
the Court agreed, and struck down that provision of the 
McCarran-Walter Act, saying all persons, including foreign 
nationals in this country have the same First Amendment rights.
    Mahmoud Khalil has the same First Amendment rights. Badar 
Khan Suri has the same First Amendment rights, and yet this 
administration is targeting them for nothing more than speaking 
out in ways that the administration disagrees with. That is 
contrary to the core principle of the First Amendment.
    In the same way that the effort to use charges of 
antisemitism to target universities and try to micromanage how 
they discipline particular incidents is contrary to the core 
conception of the First Amendment.
    Ms. Omar. Mr. Cole, it is refreshing. Professor Cole, it is 
refreshing to have a witness who understands the legitimate 
McCarthy-like approach the majority is taking on this 
Committee. For them it is easy to target peoples' rights to 
speech and to assemble when they advocate for Palestine. It is 
easy to dismiss the rights of those who are not yet citizens.
    Professor Cole, from your decades of experience as a First 
Amendment scholar and champion, does it ever stop at the easy 
targets?
    Mr. Cole. No, it does not stop at the easy targets. You 
could again, look back at McCarthyism. It was targeted at a 
problem. There were Communists in this country that were spying 
for our enemy, but that is not what the McCarthyism was about. 
It was not about identifying those spies. It ultimately reached 
millions of Americans who were subjected to investigations.
    People lost their jobs, were black-listed merely for their 
ideas.
    Chairman Walberg. The gentlelady's time is expired.
    Ms. Omar. I will say those who do not learn from history 
repeat it, so thank you so much.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. Now, I recognize 
the gentleman from California, Mr. Kiley.
    Mr. Kiley. President Raymond, there is a professor in your 
faculty, Professor Mendelson, is that correct?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes.
    Mr. Kiley. He is an Israeli professor, and he has posted 
that Haverford College's study body is led by Hamas apologist 
and tainted by antisemitism. He said if I am a parent of a 
Jewish student, I will not send them to Haverford College. Do 
you think there is reality reflected in his sentiments?
    Ms. Raymond. I am sorry, I did not hear you. Do I----
    Mr. Kiley. Do his sentiments reflect the reality on that 
campus?
    Ms. Raymond. I think that Professor Mendelson has the right 
to express himself as he wishes, and I do not think that 
expresses the overall reality of Haverford.
    Mr. Kiley. Was he investigated by your administration?
    Ms. Raymond. I will not talk about individual 
investigations.
    Mr. Kiley. OK. I am not asking you the content of the 
investigation, I am saying yes or no, was this professor 
investigated?
    Ms. Raymond. I will not talk about whether an individual--
--
    Mr. Kiley. I think we will take that as a yes. You have 
professors who are making antisemitic comments, who are 
inciting violence, rather than investigate them, you 
investigate the Israeli professor who is calling attention to 
the horrors that are taking place on the campus.
    There was an incident in 2024 where you had posters for 
Chabad events, for other events in the Jewish community for 
antisemitism events that disappeared. You said that this was 
from benign mechanisms, and you said it was the wind. Was it 
the wind that caused the posters to come down?
    Ms. Raymond. We do not tolerate any discrimination or bias, 
which----
    Mr. Kiley. That was nowhere close to my question. Was it 
the wind that caused these posters to come down? What you said 
it was.
    Ms. Raymond. When posters are taken down intentionally, not 
by the wind, then that would be antisemitism.
    Mr. Kiley. Not the kind of wind that only goes after one 
particular type of poster. There was also an event on your 
campus that you have acknowledged by the ADL, the Anti-
Defamation League that was disrupted, at an event specifically 
designed to counter antisemitism. You had antisemites that came 
and disrupted it.
    Apparently, the only thing you had them do was write a 
letter of apology. Is that correct?
    Ms. Raymond. Having the disruption of that antisemitism 
awareness event was not acceptable, and a horrible moment.
    Mr. Kiley. All they had to do was write a letter of 
apology. There was also apparently doughnuts were going to be 
ordered for commencement from a Jewish bakery. A group of 
antisemites on campus asked for a boycott saying, ``Say no to 
blood doughnuts.'' Did you abide by their calls for a boycott?
    Ms. Raymond. We purchased and enjoyed those doughnuts.
    Mr. Kiley. Did the students receive the doughnuts?
    Ms. Raymond. They were eaten at commencement.
    Mr. Kiley. They were eaten. That is an odd passive way. Did 
the students get any?
    Ms. Raymond. Pardon me. They were available at 
commencement.
    Mr. Kiley. To students?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes, they were available during the 
commencement.
    Mr. Kiley. OK. To students. We also had a takeover of 
Founder's Hall take place on your campus, and you said that you 
negotiated with those who were involved in this, did you not?
    Ms. Raymond. I had conversations with those students when 
we brought that to a close.
    Mr. Kiley. Students who physically took over this building, 
and in fact you said that the only punishment, the only 
consequences for them were restorative, not punitive action. Is 
that right? Restorative, not punitive?
    Ms. Raymond. When that disruption disrupted our campus 
activities, according to our policies and our practices, we 
took--we closed that off and it ended.
    Mr. Kiley. There was also an antisemitism awareness 
basketball game that was organized, but the organizers were 
told that this might prove too antagonistic to the pro-
Palestinian students, and the game did not happen. Is that 
correct?
    Ms. Raymond. We are committed to fighting antisemitism.
    Mr. Kiley. That was not the question. Was the game 
canceled? Were the students told it would be too antagonistic 
to pro-Palestinian students?
    Ms. Raymond. That is not what happened.
    Mr. Kiley. Can you look--would you be able right now to 
look the parents of a perspective Jewish student in the eye, 
and assure them that their son or daughter would feel safe and 
welcome on your campus?
    Ms. Raymond. I can assure all applicants to Haverford 
College that we are a place that promotes inclusion and 
belonging for all.
    Mr. Kiley. Would you be able to look the parents of a 
perspective Jewish student and say your son or daughter will 
feel safe and welcome on my campus?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes, I would.
    Mr. Kiley. This is all, Mr. Cole, just McCarthyism to you, 
right? You have testified, you have likened our committee's 
antisemitism investigation to the House Un-American Activities 
Committee, is that right?
    Mr. Cole. That is absolutely right.
    Mr. Kiley. Have you forgotten the hearing with say the 
Columbia President where during her testimony there was an 
illegal encampment that had taken over that campus. The House 
Un-American Activities Committee's problem was that it was 
dredging up distant affiliations, real or imagined, in order to 
impugn people.
    Nothing could be more different than what is going on. I do 
not know if you have talked to the students at places like 
Haverford, or Harvard, or Northwestern, or UCLA, who are afraid 
to wear a Star of David, afraid to wear a Yarmulke, or are 
afraid to express their identity in any way because they will 
be ostracized.
    They will be subject to discrimination and potentially acts 
of violence, who have to face checkpoints from antisemitic 
lunatics on the campus, not letting them even access public 
facilities, or cross the quad. Nothing could be more different. 
This is a shocking problem that has engulfed much of higher 
education, and had been building for many years, but in 
particular, over the last year and a half.
    I simply cannot believe that you would say that, that the 
Democrat witness from the ACLU would come here and liken this 
to McCarthyism. We have a long way to go in reforming higher 
education. I yield back.
    Mr. Cole. Can I respond?
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlemen----
    Mr. Cole. Do I get to respond, or, no?
    Mr. Scott. Could the gentleman respond?
    Chairman Walberg. The gentleman can respond when he is 
given the opportunity. I now recognize the gentleman from 
California, Mr. DeSaulnier.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Mr. Cole, I want to give you a chance to 
respond on my time, and I just want to agree with your 
sentiment, and taken by a comment in that point of history, 
have you no shame, and sorry he is leaving.
    It is a shameless behavior, so I will give you a few 
minutes to explain.
    Mr. Cole. I guess he did not want to hear the answer.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Apparently, so go ahead. If you need more 
time, it is on me.
    Mr. Cole. The answer is of course there is a problem with 
antisemitism. There is a problem with Islamophobia. There is a 
problem with racism. There is a problem with sexism. This 
hearing, this set of hearings that this Committee has engaged 
in, is not a solution to that problem, just as there was a 
problem with Communist spies.
    We now have evidence that there were in fact Communist 
spies, but the McCarthy Era and the HUAC hearings were not 
about that. They were about bringing people in, condemning 
them, not looking into the facts, but making broad accusations, 
and I have heard that again here today, again and again.
    Lumping together criticism of Israel, which is protected 
speech, with antisemitism. Criticism of Zionism, which is 
protected speech, with antisemitism. No effort to discern the 
difference between protected speech and discrimination. Our 
Constitution requires that we make that distinction. This 
Committee has not made any effort to make that distinction.
    That is why I draw the comparison to HUAC.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. I completely agree with you, and that 
comment to Senator McCarthy at that time I think is appropriate 
today. ``After all this, sir, do you have no shame?'' Because I 
actually think it makes a higher risk for violence on the 
campuses.
    Mr. Cole. Exactly, and we did ultimately recognize that Joe 
McCarthy made a mistake, and I think history will show that 
this Committee followed and repeated that same mistake.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Absolutely, absolutely. Appreciate it. 
President Armstrong, I want to talk about what we have done in 
California in the University of California system that some of 
my colleagues are anxious to criticize.
    In your instance, as a member of the Transportation 
Committee, you are getting people out to help us spend that 
money that we did not in the Biden administration, to provide 
valuable resources to the economy and transportation. You have 
one of the highest returns on investment for students.
    When your graduates get out, they go out to work and make a 
good return on investment. Thank you for that, and you have 
done really good work on this instance. Mr. Chair, I would like 
to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record two letters 
from students and organizations at Cal Poly, St. Luis Obispo, 
which speak positively about President Armstrong's leadership 
and the atmosphere the school has created for Jewish students. 
I would ask unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, to submit those to 
the record.
    Chairman Walberg. Without objection, they will be 
submitted.
    [The Information of Mr. DeSaulnier follows:]

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    Mr. DeSaulnier. Can you followup on your work with local 
police, who have jurisdiction over this at Cal Poly, that has 
been successful to protecting all of your students, 
particularly Jewish students?
    Mr. Armstrong. Yes, thank you for that question. We work 
very hard to make sure all students have a safe learning 
environment. We want to make sure they are free from harassment 
and discrimination, but we also balance that with free speech. 
Our university policy partner with off campus, the city police 
in a very positive way.
    First, we make sure that our students who have invited 
speakers or departments that it is done properly, and everyone 
is safe, so that is with our time, place and manner rules. Then 
we have a great relationship with the city. They provide aid. 
We also support them, so I appreciate that question.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thanks. Mr. Cole, I want to ask you a 
question. In the area I represent, Region 9 in San Francisco, 
is being cutback all the departments, but the Department of 
Education, so its ability to defend vulnerable students, could 
you speak to that? If you do not have the staff in the regions, 
what does that do to potential violence or protections for 
interest of the disabled community?
    Mr. Cole. Well, it decimates the ability, the real ability 
of government to try to protect Jewish students. If this 
Committee really cared about Jewish students, it would be 
condemning the Department of Education. It would be bringing in 
the Secretary, as I suggested earlier, and saying why are you 
cutting in half the Office of Civil Rights? We have a problem 
with antisemitism, we have a problem with racism, we have a 
problem with sexism, let us deal with the problem.
    Instead, the Committee brings in Presidents, dredges up 
allegations that have not been determined to be true or false, 
and just throw them out as if that somehow is solving the 
problem. It is not solving the problem in any way shape or 
form. What would solve the problem----
    Chairman Walberg. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Cole [continuing]. Calling the Secretary of Education 
here.
    Chairman Walberg. I now recognize Mr. Fine.
    Mr. Fine. Thank you. This has been hard to sit through, and 
for all the Jews that are out there, I want to apologize to you 
because it has been tough for me listening to a lot of the 
repulsive and repugnant commentary that has been made both in 
those asking questions, and those answering them.
    God puts us where he wants us to be. My 17 year-old this 
morning told me to wear my kippa, which I do not do often, but 
that may change in honor of all of the students at these 
campuses that do not feel safe to wear it themselves. For 
anyone who doubts my commitment to fighting on these issues, no 
matter what side of the aisle they are on, they can go talk to 
the two Chairman of the Board, and the one university President 
in Florida who no longer have their jobs because of me.
    I encourage you to keep that in mind when you answer my 
questions. I think we heard a lot of lip service here, and Mr. 
Cole talked about the importance of free speech and equal 
access to education, so I am going to start with those 
questions with Dr. Raymond.
    Dr. Raymond, and I encourage you--this may be happening 
right now. If a student is on your campus right now with a sign 
that says, ``No Blacks on Campus,'' what will happen to that 
student?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative Fine, I first want to say----
    Mr. Fine. I do not want to hear that. I want you to answer 
my question. A student--if someone, a student on your campus 
right now walking around campus saying, ``No Blacks on 
Campus,'' what will happen to that student? They are--just 
allowed to walk around, ``Good job. Free Speech, we love 
that.'' Is that what would happen on your campus?
    Ms. Raymond. No.
    Mr. Fine. OK, good. Would they be invited to go get an 
education somewhere else, which is what I hope the answer is?
    Ms. Raymond. It would be the same as someone who is 
inappropriately and repugnantly----
    Mr. Fine. Would they be kicked out of campus if the student 
walked around your campus saying, ``No Blacks on Campus,'' or 
would we like sit around a drum circle and talk about how great 
it is? What would happen? Would they be kicked off, or is that 
free speech at Haverford College, no Blacks on campus?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative Fine, there is no room for 
discrimination, or----
    Mr. Fine. There is room, because at your campus in front of 
you at a protest, students held up a sign saying, ``No Zionists 
on Campus.'' They said--and there was no consequence for that, 
and you were at that event, and it happened on--it happened, 
sorry, it happened on September 30th, 2024. You were there.
    My second question, I am going to go to, do you believe the 
Jews are responsible for COVID? Is that some sort of conspiracy 
that we came up with to go after people, the Jewish students on 
your campus, and professors, we are responsible for COVID, and 
it was like unleashed on people. Is that what you believe?
    Ms. Raymond. Of course it is not.
    Mr. Fine. OK. Then why did you say when a group, a 
terrorist group, wanted to have a presentation called ``COVID 
in times of Genocide, How Israel uses COVID as a tool for 
Settler Colonialism in Palestine.'' Your response to that name 
was that it was thoughtful and considerate.
    See, we can talk about what other people did, I am 
interested in what you did, and in both of these instances you 
are the one that did it. Do you think that title, ``COVID in 
times of Genocide, how Israel uses COVID as a tool for Settler 
Colonialism in Palestine?'' Was that thoughtful and 
considerate? Do you still belief that today?
    Ms. Raymond. I did not say that about that title, and I do 
not believe that today, and Zionists are welcome on our campus, 
and Zionists are Jews and not Jews, and to go back to your 
other point, we do not tolerate discrimination against----
    Mr. Fine. Well, then let us get on to that. Zionists are 
welcome on your campus. We will now talk about a professor that 
is on your campus, and I am actually going to give some of my 
time to Mr. Cole on this one because he talked about equal 
access to education.
    You have a professor named Guangtian Ha, and I apologize, 
who said in August 2024, the only way to deal with Zionists is 
to stop talking to them and refuse to let them waste your time. 
Now, I do not know what Professor Ha teaches, but I would 
assume there are some students in his class that are actually 
Zionists.
    Would it be--would it reduce their access to education if 
their professor publicly says I should stop talking to 
Zionists, and I should not waste my time on them. How is that 
acceptable on your campus?
    Ms. Raymond. Discrimination of any form is not acceptable.
    Mr. Fine. OK. Does he still work on your campus? Does he 
still work there?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes, he does.
    Mr. Fine. He does, and he also said something, he said, 
``The State of Israel must be dismantled and society 
denazified. Zionism is Nazism, and is Fascism, Zionists or 
racists.'' That is OK, and you can continue to work on your 
campus when you make those statements, that is OK, keep the 
job.
    Ms. Raymond. Those statements are repugnant, and I do not 
defend those statements.
    Mr. Fine. You do because here is the last one I am going to 
do. You had a graduate student, let me see if I can find it 
here, you had a graduate student who before he was hired, made 
a statement--oh, can I find it here? The problem with your 
place is there are so many.
    October 7, 2023, you had a visiting assistant professor 
write, ``October 7th is a beautiful sight to wake up to this 
morning,'' and after this person made this statement, your 
school offered them another position in June 2024. Why would 
you hire someone who says that October 7th was a beautiful 
sight to wake up to. Why would you hire that person?
    Ms. Raymond. I am very sorry that I had someone on the 
faculty that would espouse those kinds of views.
    Mr. Fine. Good. You can go back, and you can fire him. I 
yield back the balance of my time.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman, and I would ask to 
submit for the record the most recent ADL Campus Antisemitism 
Card, that includes a report card that includes the three 
universities here, as well as others, including some that have 
been in front of us where if it is conjecture that this 
Committee in our activities with hearings are not having an 
impact, we will see that there has been impact and better 
grades that are coming on for some, still terrible grades for 
others.
    Without objection, I submit this for the record.
    [The Information of Chairman Walberg follows:]

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    Chairman Walberg. I now recognize the gentlelady from 
Michigan, Ms. Stevens.
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to give 
the first, you know, 15 to 20 seconds to Mr. Cole to finish 
your last thought from the previous question if you wanted to.
    Mr. Cole. From which question?
    Ms. Stevens. From Mr. DeSaulnier?
    Mr. Cole. I am not even remembering.
    Ms. Stevens. Oh, well, that is good.
    Mr. Cole. I think I did finish it.
    Ms. Stevens. I think the Committee wanted to make sure you 
could finish your thought, but if it is finished.
    Mr. Cole. I think I have said what I needed to say about 
the analogies between this Committee's work and HUAC 
Committee's work, and I think history will reflect that is 
exactly the analogy that we should draw.
    Ms. Stevens. Yes. Well, I think we can all agree that 
combatting antisemitism is a nonpartisan issue, and needs to be 
treated as such, and this is now the fourth or fifth Committee 
hearing that we have held on this topic of antisemitism on our 
college campuses.
    I do not believe it is a false obsession. We know in the 
United States of America that we have rising antisemitism, and 
it is actually exploding. Dr. Raymond, it was nice to hear you 
say that Zionists are welcome on campus, whether a Zionist is a 
Jewish student, or a non-Jewish student. That is important to 
hear. That is important to say and even displaying that more 
prominent I think for all of you, it would be certainly 
welcome.
    I am myself a Zionist, and I am not Jewish, and I am proud 
of that designation. Now, there might be some people who are 
not Zionists, and maybe you are going to say that non-Zionists 
are welcome as well, anti-Zionists are welcome.
    One of the challenges that those of us who have studied 
this issue have come across is that while it might sound good 
to say that non-Zionists, anti-Zionism, is not antisemitism. We 
have not yet really see that exist, and so we want to be very 
careful with, you know, embracing this modality of thinking 
that is anti-Zionism that very quickly bleeds into 
antisemitism.
    The other thing that we want to respect and recognize is 
universities, as places of free thought and deep thinking. I 
myself have a master's in philosophy. I did graduate this 
century, that is nice. In a different time where this level of 
antisemitism was not at its boiling point.
    We are having experiences from the Jewish community in 
particular, even pre 10/7 where we knew it was difficult for 
students--Jewish students, to be on college campuses. After 10/
7 it became on some of the campuses, very difficult, and 
students--we had testimony in another--it was a type of hearing 
that we had, where a student said he was wearing his yarmulke.
    He was raised by a single mother in Brooklyn, openly 
Jewish, had never been to Israel, and is now being attacked on 
his college campus. We all have to ask ourselves why that is 
happening, and we have to do the work to make sure that it does 
not happen.
    Now, I also want to devote my energy and my time as a 
Member of Congress who cares, I am a Cochair of the 
Antisemitism Task Force, so I do deeply care about this issue, 
tremendously. I am going to reflect on another period of 
hearing that we had where we shared the mental health resources 
that get made available to college campuses.
    We had a couple of terms ago, when the Democrats were in 
the majority, a hearing about this, and we were going to 
allocate more mental health resources on the college campuses. 
A colleague from the other side of the aisle put in an 
amendment that said if you are gay, you cannot access these 
mental health resources.
    I do not know why that would happen. I do not know why that 
was a vote we had to take in this Committee hearing. I found 
that really biased, and lacking in inclusion. To your point, 
Mr. Cole, about taking very seriously what our colleges need to 
combat hate, to combat antisemitism, we need a civil rights 
office, and we need a functioning Department of Education.
    Thank you to everybody in the audience who is here as well, 
wearing their yellow pins. I am also the Cochair of the Hostage 
Task Force. We need to bring the hostages home, we need to see 
this war come to an end, and Hamas needs to surrender. With 
that, Mr. Chair, thank you, I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentlelady. I recognize the 
gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Onder.
    Mr. Onder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you to the 
witnesses for coming to the Committee today. Ms.--President 
Raymond, as you mentioned in your testimony on September 30, 
2024, the Anti-Defamation League held a presentation on 
Haverford's campus entitled, ``Antisemitism 101,'' 
unfortunately many of your students decided to disrupt the 
event, for example, by chanting through a megaphone, ``From 
Gaza to Lebanon, Israel will still be gone--will soon be 
gone,'' banging pots and pans, and holding signs with 
statements, including, ``No Zionists on Campus.''
    President Raymond, yes or no, do you believe that is an 
incident of intimidating Jewish students, and an incident of 
antisemitism?
    Ms. Raymond. I do believe that is an act of intimidation, 
yes.
    Mr. Onder. You know, I understand that it is not 
necessarily antisemitic to condemn particular aspects of 
Israeli foreign policy, but in context, would you agree that 
using the term Zionist in that context, it is a synonym for 
Jew?
    Ms. Raymond. I am committed to supporting our Jewish 
community.
    Mr. Onder. Do you think those protestors knew the foreign 
policy views of every Jewish student on campus? I mean in 
context, no Zionists on campus. No Republicans on campus, no 
libertarians on campus. I do not think they are talking about 
Jews. They are talking--no Jews on campus is what those 
protestors mean.
    Ms. Raymond. The representative before me, and I said also 
myself, that Zionists, and I think you know this too, Zionists 
are Jews and not Jews, and we do not accept discrimination 
against anyone at Haverford.
    Mr. Onder. Were any students involved in that incident 
disciplined? Were any expelled, suspended, or otherwise subject 
to discipline?
    Ms. Raymond. We did put through discipline, some of the 
students that were involved in disrupting that event, and we 
learned from that event to have clearer policies, which we now 
have on what it means to disrupt through noise outside an 
event.
    Mr. Onder. Can you give us numbers of how many students 
were disciplined and in what ways?
    Ms. Raymond. I will not give numbers or specifics.
    Mr. Onder. Yes. You were similarly evasive with Chairman 
Walberg, but your colleagues, your colleagues gave us numbers. 
Why are you not? Can you cite a Federal law that does not allow 
you to do so, or are you more ethical than they are because you 
are protecting students' privacy better?
    We are not asking for names. We are not asking for social 
security numbers, or dates of birth, we are asking for numbers.
    Ms. Raymond. My top priority is the safety and well-being 
of our students.
    Mr. Onder. You are not going to give us the information?
    Ms. Raymond. We follow all of our disciplinary practices, 
which can, depending on what has happened, result in suspension 
or expulsion when appropriate.
    Mr. Onder. President Raymond, last year when Jewish 
community leaders pressed Haverford DI administrator, this is 
Nicky Young, VP for Institutional Equity and Access, and 
Professor of Gender Studies, when they asked her about the 
antisemitic climate on campus, she is quoted as saying, 
``Blacks and gays have in the past not felt safe on campus. It 
is now the turn of Jewish students to experience that 
feeling.''
    Were you aware of her making that statement?
    Ms. Raymond. That is not a statement that she made.
    Mr. Onder. She did not?
    Ms. Raymond. No, she did not, and that does not sound like 
the Dr. Young that I know who was committed against 
antisemitism as am I.
    Mr. Onder. If someone made such a statement, should they be 
fired?
    Ms. Raymond. We follow--when that--any such statement that 
is discriminatory----
    Mr. Onder. If someone made such a statement, should they be 
suspended?
    Ms. Raymond. We would follow our practices to, and have as 
a consequence, an appropriate outcome.
    Mr. Onder. If such a statement was made, should they be 
fired, suspended or disciplined in some other way? Are such 
statements unacceptable at Haverford?
    Ms. Raymond. Statements of discrimination and harassment 
are unacceptable.
    Mr. Onder. OK. Fine. I suppose it is your First Amendment 
right to be evasive, but it is also our right to decide that 
such institutions are not deserving of taxpayer money. Thank 
you, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman, and I recognize 
the gentlelady from Pennsylvania, Ms. Lee.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our nation is undoubtedly 
at an inflection point, politically, culturally, socially. 
College campuses have always been the place where those 
tensions collide more visibly, and more profoundly than almost 
anywhere else in our country.
    It is precisely because of that role that these 
institutions play in our society. Throughout history, college 
campuses have been the places where world views, politics, 
cultures, meet. Students are introduced to ideas and thoughts, 
some they accept and agree with, and others they vehemently 
disagree with, but it is where they encounter ideas that tests 
their values, where they are pushed out of the comfort zones, 
and where they begin to define not, just what they think, but 
who they are and who they want to be.
    Some of the most transformative movements for justice in 
this country were ignited by students on college campuses, from 
the citizens of the Civil Rights Movement, and the Antiwar 
Administrations to campaign against South African Apartheid, 
and the many other student-led movements for racial, gender and 
economic justice.
    Those movements did not just happen to take place on 
campuses, they happened because of what those campuses seek to 
foster, spaces for critical thinking, opportunities for 
students to learn, to meet with diverse people, to be 
empowered, and to question existing social and societal 
structures.
    Students will not get everything right, and we should all 
unequivocally say that antisemitism, anti-blackness, 
Islamophobia, homophobia, and any form of hatred, are not 
acceptable ways to engage on a college campus, and movement 
spaces and activism, or in any other existing place in our 
societies.
    Students will not get everything right, and we should also 
say unequivocally, or excuse me, but we should also recognize 
that discomfort is sometimes having your worldview question, 
and that it is sometimes conflated as being a threat to safety. 
There are differences.
    We all have a right to critique and disagree with the 
policies and actions of governments. It is in the Constitution. 
Students have a right to protest, and advocate on behalf of 
Palestinian existence, rights and self-determinations, just as 
students have the right to protest and advocate on behalf of 
Israel.
    Now, that tradition of protest, academic freedom, and the 
core principle of free speech is under attack, not genuinely in 
the name of safety or student well-being, but under the guise 
of control, used to suppress the voices of marginalized groups, 
and criminalized dissent.
    The colleges and universities before us today have a dual 
obligation to both ensure the safety of their students from 
antisemitism and all forms of hatred, while allowing critical 
discourse to continue. Suppressing student's right to protest 
is an entry point for the erosion of civil liberties, and that 
is how democracies die.
    That brings us to why we are here today. The majority in 
this Committee convened us because they, even if people who 
really are impacted by this, but they are further villainizing 
higher education while using Jewish students and antisemitism 
as a scapegoat.
    I have a question. It is imperative that we create a campus 
environment that is diverse, inclusive, safe, equitable without 
compromising free speech and academic freedom. Mr. Cole, do you 
agree that they can, that universities can and must do both?
    Mr. Cole. Absolutely. They can and must do both, and in 
some instances where there are State universities, they are 
compelled by the constitution to respect free speech and not 
treat every antisemitic comment as discrimination because most 
of them are protected speech.
    On private universities that are not bound by the 
Constitution, many and indeed most of them, have adopted free 
speech policies precisely for the reasons you suggest that it 
is critical to an education. For years, conservatives 
complained about universities not being open enough, not being 
tolerant enough, condemning speech, which was only racist or 
only sexist.
    Now, suddenly, they have switched entirely.
    Ms. Lee. All right. If I may, to add to that, every student 
deserves to be safe, and have their humanity recognized. This 
administration has done nothing to warrant that end. If they 
actually cared about campus safety and protecting students, 
then in addition to acknowledging the real rise in 
antisemitism, we would also be talking about the rise of 
Islamophobia, and the persistent anti-blackness, the 
degradation of rights of trans students.
    Since my tenure we have had zero hearings, resolutions or 
acknowledgements of any of the many intertwined ills that 
plaque our college campuses in larger society. Has anyone--just 
a yes or a no, is anyone on this Committee, from the majority 
on our committee, has anyone from the Trump administration 
asked you about racist, Islamophobic or Homophobic incidents on 
your campus, yes, or no? Probably not, just for time.
    I would say they probably have not because what has become 
clear is that the concern here is selective. Only appearing 
when it can be weaponized for political gain. Instead, what we 
are seeing is a deliberate effort to dividemarginalized people. 
My colleagues are weaponizing--attempts to weaponize learning 
is transparent and pathetic.
    It is clear that my colleagues have real issues with free 
speech and education, not antisemitism. We should not fall for 
it. It is clear that they do not care about it because they 
have dismantled and closed regional offices for the Office of 
Civil Rights, where we are tasked with investigating 
antisemitism.
    That they have not spoken out against the Nazi salutes of 
Elon Musk, or the Great Replacement Theory that led to the 
largest antisemitic massacre in my district, in the Pittsburgh 
Synagogue shooting, that they have done nothing about anti-
blackness, I will not hold my breath for a hearing on that.
    That we have not acknowledged that our safety and our 
liberation is tied together. That is not actually student 
safety that they care about. We have to fight back against our 
attempts to erode our civil liberties. We cannot allow them to 
use efforts to divide our marginalized communities against each 
other in that fight.
    Chairman Walberg. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Ms. Lee. We are the closest we have ever been--ever been to 
losing our civil liberties. We have to fight against it.
    Chairman Walberg. I recognize the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania, Mr. Mackenzie.
    Mr. Mackenzie. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
today's hearing on stopping the spread of antisemitism on 
American campuses because we do see a very real problem that is 
occurring all across the country. Antisemitism has been around 
for a long time, but ever since October 7th it has come out 
into the light in a much more shocking and offensive fashion, 
particularly on our university campuses.
    When it presents itself, we appreciate that some of the 
university Presidents are willing to identify those situations, 
and call them out, and when discrimination like this goes 
through a process that you have on you campus, and a violation 
is determined that it has actually occurred, appropriate 
punishment is being met out.
    That is important that we recognize that as well. Then 
accountability for us as legislators, is making sure that those 
institutions that actually go through that process, recognize 
the discrimination that is occurring on their campus, hand out 
punishment. We want to make sure that that is actually the 
course of events that is playing out.
    During the course of this testimony today, two of the 
university Presidents have been very transparent with the 
aggregate information that they were willing to share about the 
punishments that were handed out on their university campus. 
One was not. One has debated that conversation a number of 
times, saying that she was unable to provide that information.
    Under pressured testimony, twice though, you have 
acknowledged that punishment has occurred, so you have violated 
your own standard, that you would not disclose or discuss any 
punishments that were occurring on your university campus. My 
question to you, to the President, Dr. Raymond, from Haverford 
College, is will you go back to your college campus, collect 
that aggregate information.
    We do not need any personal information, and share it with 
this Committee about the punishments that have been handed out 
from your university to students, or others who were involved 
in this discriminatory practice on your college campus?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative Mackenzie, I appreciate your 
requesting that. I can commit to our practices around this. We 
do not share our results of our disciplinary processes on our 
campus or publicly.
    Mr. Mackenzie. That is a problem. That is a problem. You do 
receive Federal money, do you not? In some way, either directly 
or indirectly through student loans or grants to your 
university?
    Ms. Raymond. We do, in a wonderful partnership with the 
Federal Government.
    Mr. Mackenzie. Well, that partnership may be in jeopardy 
because if you will not provide transparency and accountability 
like your other colleagues here, it calls into question your 
actions on your campus. When people are concerned about 
discrimination that is happening on your college campus, which 
the list is pretty long at this point.
    It is very concerning the amount of incidents that are 
piled up at your college campus under your tenure, and yet you 
will not share any information about the punishment that has 
been handed out when discrimination that you acknowledged, has 
happened on your campus. You will not share that anybody has 
actually been punished for that?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative, the effects of what have 
happened at Haverford on our Jewish students and community are 
real, and deeply troubling to me, and I am in this work 
committed to getting it right. We have had many policy changes 
since October 7th in order to do this work better than we were 
able to do then.
    I commit to that work in an ongoing basis with deep empathy 
and care for all of our Jewish students, staff and faculty.
    Mr. Mackenzie. I appreciate that statement, but it is 
lacking in transparency and accountability about the end 
results of punishment that are handed out to students and 
faculty that are on your campus, that participate in 
discriminatory actions. That should just be a baseline for 
receiving Federal funding.
    You are willing to acknowledge that discriminatory actions 
have happened on your campus. You are willing to say that we 
are going to take some kind of action. When that does occur, 
you are going to go through a process, but then you will not 
actually show those of us that are responsible for providing 
Federal funding, that you have actually done anything at the 
end of the day.
    That is a very concerning course of action, and I think it 
is something that Congress should probably look into, saying 
that there needs to be transparency, there needs to be 
accountability, and those institutions that do not want to 
provide that, and want to be evasive in remarks before 
Congress, want to avoid transparency and accountability in the 
actual publishing of the results of in aggregate numbers.
    The fact that they have taken action against discriminatory 
behavior, I think that that probably warrants a further 
investigation. The Department of Education should be looking 
into that, and ultimately, they should be withholding funds 
from somebody who does not want to provide transparent and 
accurate information about how they are handling discrimination 
on their college campus. Thank you and I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. The gentleman's time has expired. I thank 
the gentleman. I recognize the gentleman from Washington, Mr. 
Baumgartner.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Raymond, how 
many Americans were killed on October 7th?
    Ms. Raymond. I do not know.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Dr. Raymond, how many----
    Ms. Raymond. There were some in Israel.
    Mr. Baumgartner. How many Americans were taken hostage on 
October 7th?
    Ms. Raymond. I know that some were, I do not know the 
number.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Do you know how many Americans are 
currently held hostage by Hamas?
    Ms. Raymond. No, I do not.
    Mr. Baumgartner. You do condemn Hamas as a terrorist group?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes, I do.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Well, do you think you do not know these 
numbers because these American victims are Jewish?
    Ms. Raymond. Of course, that is not the reason.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Do you think there has been sufficient 
sympathy for the Jewish Americans who have been killed and 
taken hostage by Hamas on your campus?
    Ms. Raymond. We are all bereft around what happened on 
October 7th in Israel, and for all that were impacted, whether 
it is a period--it is a horrific time in history, but yes, we 
have----
    Mr. Baumgartner. Well, see, October 7th was the greatest 
terrorist attack on American citizens since 9/11, and yet, you 
do not know how many Americans were killed, you do not know how 
many were taken hostage, and you have an antisemitism problem 
on your campus.
    It is hard to conclude, and I appreciate that you come here 
today acknowledging that you yourself have personally made 
mistakes when it comes to antisemitism, and that Haverford 
College has made mistakes, but those apologies ring a little 
hollow if we do not even know the basics of sympathy for how 
many American Jews were killed on October 7th.
    Do you--now, you did not write a letter, or make a strongly 
worded statement after October 7th, is that correct?
    Ms. Raymond. I would like to say to your last question, my 
empathy and my deep sorrow is to all of the victims of that 
day. You asked me questions about Americans.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Did you make a strongly worded statement, 
or something written after the attacks of October 7th?
    Ms. Raymond. Yes, I did.
    Mr. Baumgartner. You did. You also made--I want to question 
whether you actually understand what antisemitism is. Can you 
define antisemitism?
    Ms. Raymond. Antisemitism is hatred of Jews.
    Mr. Baumgartner. OK. Now, you did issue a statement very 
quickly after the protests and riots of January 6th, did you 
not?
    Ms. Raymond. I did.
    Mr. Baumgartner. You did. In those you described 
specifically the protestors on January 6th as being 
antisemitic. In that same statement, did you not? I can read it 
to you if you would like me to?
    Ms. Raymond. Pardon me. I am sorry. I thought I heard 
January 6th?
    Mr. Baumgartner. Yes, January 6th, so you did not issue a 
very strongly worded statement after October 7th, but you did 
after January 6th. You describe the January 6th protestors at 
the Nation's Capital as antisemitic. In that same statement you 
also said that Black Lives Matter is a peaceful organization. 
Is that true?
    Do you see Black Lives Matter as a peaceful organization?
    Ms. Raymond. I think that I am being misquoted by what you 
said.
    Mr. Baumgartner. I will read it to you. It says, ``Incited 
by the President's words and parading explicitly antisemitic 
symbols, these rioters violently attempted to add another 
obstruction to the Presidential election.'' You also said, 
``Many have noted the conduct of Capital employees and the 
contrast, the aggressive treatment of peaceful assemblies of 
Black Lives Matter protestors.''
    Is Black Lives Matter protestors, is Black Lives Matter a 
peaceful organization?
    Ms. Raymond. It is a non-violent organization.
    Mr. Baumgartner. Was there any antisemitism exhibited by 
Black Lives Matter?
    Ms. Raymond. I am not aware of that.
    Mr. Baumgartner. You are not aware. The President of a 
university that does not know how many American Jews were 
killed on October 7th, and a President who does not know of any 
antisemitic behavior by Black Lives Matter. Are you aware that 
Black Lives Matter committed over 2 billion dollars in damage?
    This is the organization that you describe as peaceful?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative, I may not know those facts 
that you have asked me about. What I do know, is that as 
President of Haverford College, I am committed to creating----
    Mr. Baumgartner. What I think is that your apology rings 
hollow. I think it is politically convenient for you now to 
come cap in hand to when folks like Republicans are serious 
about antisemitism, and you have Federal funding on the line, 
you will come here, and yet in your background you displayed 
behavior, failing to significantly condemn the attacks of 
October 7th.
    Not as a university President at a prestigious university, 
not being aware of the suffering that American Jews have 
suffered because, perhaps, because they are Jewish, and then 
describing an antisemitic group like Black Lives Matter as a 
peaceful group, when anybody who even turned on the television 
and watched the news, knew that they were committing billions 
of dollars in damage, and violence across this country, and 
they have deep antisemitic roots. I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. I recognize now 
the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Grothman.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Cole, if somebody issued statements which 
are critical of Islam as a religion, is that protected speech 
under the First Amendment?
    Mr. Cole. Sure.
    Mr. Grothman. If a Christian minister attacks the gay 
lifestyle, is that protected speech under the First Amendment?
    Mr. Cole. Yes. I am sorry?
    Mr. Grothman. I said wow. OK, thank you. Now, by the way 
you got those answers right.
    Mr. Cole. Thank you.
    Mr. Grothman. I would like to ask our professor something. 
I have had this job now a little over 10 years, and I get 
around to all sorts of groups, and talk to people. The number 
of people I talk to just beyond belief. I have yet to hear 
here, and I think I would have remembered if I heard it, any, 
what I would call, antisemitic remarks.
    Nevertheless, we seem to have a problem in all these 
universities in which antisemitism seems to be somewhat 
prevalent. Do you want to take a crack as to why antisemitism 
is I think right now tiny in the United States, but the only 
place it seems to be common is on university campuses.
    Mr. Cole. Well, I do not--I----
    Mr. Grothman. Not you. The experts, we are done with you, 
so that is it.
    Mr. Cole. Oh, I thought you said professor, I am sorry.
    Mr. Grothman. You passed your test. Any of the other three 
want to take a crack as why we seem to have antisemitism on 
American college campuses, but you know, we do not have 
antisemitism at, from what I can tell, I talk to people all the 
time, not, you now, a big problem in America as a whole? Nobody 
has a reason why that is so? You must think when these 
incidents happen on your campuses, why is this happening? You 
do not think at all? Your mind is a blank? I guess your mind is 
a blank.
    I do not really think of University Presidents, the mind is 
a blank, but apparently, they are. It is my belief that the 
reason you see more antisemitism on campuses is because there 
is a lack of thought on the campuses, and the campuses are the 
home to the hard left of this country.
    If there is an odd campus that is the home of the odd left, 
but you know, we have got some, you know, Presidents here of 
big, huge universities. I mean DePaul, Cal Poly, big 
universities. I think there is, for example, very little people 
could be described as Christian conservatives, or Republican, 
and I think that is the gist of the more liberal element right 
now in this country is including antisemitism, or a bizarre 
obsession with protecting Hamas, I guess I will put it that 
way.
    Do you feel--are you making--do you say if you had to take 
a shot, we will start out with Ms. Haverford here, or Ms. 
Raymond, Dr. Raymond. Do you have a crack of your professors, 
what percents you think would vote for say a Donald Trump, and 
what percent would vote for a Kamala Harris, or even further 
left-wing type candidate?
    Ms. Raymond. Representative, we do not ask----
    Mr. Grothman. You must have an idea. You must have an idea. 
You talk to people. You have no idea? No, no idea, we do not 
know, maybe 80 percent were for Trump. You have no idea? Not 
even in the individual departments, you have any idea?
    Ms. Raymond. I do not, and I am not interested in that kind 
of question.
    Mr. Grothman. I do not believe that, but, OK. You can say 
that. How about Mr. Manuel?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you. Like Haverford, we do not track----
    Mr. Grothman. I know you do not track, but you must have an 
opinion.
    Mr. Manuel. 1,200 faculty, on campus, and I can tell you 
that our practices are protected both conservative, and 
progressive voices in their work.
    Mr. Grothman. You have no idea, OK. Mr. Armstrong, you must 
talk to people. Everybody talks about the election last 
October. Do you feel you have kind of an angle into the left 
side big time on your campus there in California?
    Mr. Armstrong. We have the majority of--vast majority of 
our faculty and staff, they really focus on student success. We 
have a high STEM population.
    Mr. Grothman. Nobody wants to take a crack at it. Well, OK. 
I think the problem we have antisemitism on our campus is 
because odd, offbeat, hateful ideas fester in a place of 
extreme leftism, and I think universities in this country have 
become fanatical left wingers, and I do not know what we can do 
about it as a country.
    We are going to have to talk and see what we can do about 
it because we sure funnel money into the universities, and I do 
not think the----
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. His time has 
expired. Thank you. I now recognize the Ranking Member, the 
gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Scott.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Cole, can you say what the effect 
on effectively addressing antisemitism is when you ignore race, 
national origin, disability, gender, and other religion forms 
of hate?
    Mr. Cole. Well, you are not addressing the problem in a 
neutral, across the board way, and that calls into question the 
genuineness of your concern for discrimination.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you. You talked about the hearings like 
this being problematic because there has been no factual 
investigation, jobs have been threatened. Can you say another 
word about why we need an actual investigation, rather than 
hearings like this?
    Mr. Cole. Yes. The line between protected speech that is 
antisemitic, and discrimination that is antisemitic, is a hard 
line to draw. It is a line that our Constitution compels us to 
draw. It is not a line that I have heard a single Republican 
care about on this Committee, but it is a line that the 
Constitution requires us to draw.
    How do you draw that line? You engage in close 
consideration of all the facts and circumstances around an 
incident. You do not just take a letter from a student. You 
call in the student. You call in other people who witnessed the 
incident. You determine what actually happened based on 
competing, often competing accounts, and then you make a 
determination based upon those facts.
    That is what faculty committees do when they consider these 
kinds of complaints. That is what OCR did until it was 
decimated by this administration. That is not what I have seen 
this Committee do in eight hearings. I have not seen them do 
that in a single instance. Instead, all they have done is bring 
in Presidents, and berate them based on the Committee's version 
of the facts, which may or may not be true.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you. You have made the point that you have 
complain and blame without facts, cutbacks on the Office of 
Civil Rights. Are you familiar with the Community Relation 
Service at Department of Justice?
    Mr. Cole. Absolutely.
    Mr. Scott. How could they be helpful?
    Mr. Cole. They are helpful because they are--they were 
designed to get at to affirmatively proactively get at 
discrimination by getting people to work together by 
supporting, not by prosecuting, but by going in and 
affirmatively supporting areas and communities where there is 
division. That is what we need.
    We do not need, you know, speechifying by Republicans. We 
need actual efforts on the ground to deal with the problem.
    Mr. Scott. Of course that is under attack, and in the 
President's budget, it seems to be left out.
    Mr. Cole. Absolutely.
    Mr. Scott. I would ask the Presidents, the first question 
that was posed to you was something along the lines of in so 
far as each of your campuses are hotbeds of antisemitism. Can 
you give us some statistics. I forget what the rest of the 
question was. Each of you went right to the statistics and left 
us to assume that you agreed with the premise that your 
campuses were hotbeds of antisemitism.
    Does anybody want to make a quick comment on whether or not 
that assumption is accurate?
    Ms. Raymond. That is not a description that I would use.
    Mr. Scott. OK, thank you.
    Dr. Manuel.
    Mr. Manuel. I would not use that description either and I 
would note that our retention rates for Jewish students are up 
slightly over 5 years, as are our----
    Mr. Scott. Well, I am just talking about the question, you 
let it slide by.
    Dr. Armstrong.
    Mr. Armstrong. No. I would not agree with that statement.
    Mr. Scott. Mr. Cole, in the last minute, can you just say a 
word about the tension between free speech and when it gets 
into speech, can it get into criminal law, a violation of Title 
VI, and possible campus code violations?
    Mr. Cole. Again, the reason that Title VI has very high 
standards for when speech actually constitutes discrimination, 
is because the Constitution protects all kinds of hateful 
speech. We can condemn that speech. We should condemn that 
speech, but we cannot punish people for engaging in that 
speech.
    That is why Title VI says it is not discrimination to say 
something criticizing Israel at a protest. It is discrimination 
if you target a particular individual because of his Jewish 
identity, for individually targeted harassment, and it is a 
violation of Title VI if the university is deliberately 
indifferent to that, meaning they ignore the problem. I have 
not heard any evidence.
    Mr. Scott. What is a hostile environment?
    Mr. Cole. A hostile environment is only where the speech is 
so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that it denies 
equal access to education, a standard that is extraordinarily 
high, has rarely been met in any case in this country. Again, 
it is because if you define discrimination through speech too 
broadly, you chill speech.
    That is precisely what this effort of this Committee has 
done, is to chill speech. Speech that criticizes Israel, is 
protected----
    Chairman Walberg. The gentleman's time is expired again, 
and we will move on. Thank you, Mr. Cole. You have made your 
point pretty clear several times.
    Mr. Cole. Thank you.
    Chairman Walberg. So, I now recognize--I do not agree with 
it, but I now recognize the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Rulli.
    Mr. Rulli. Thank you, Chairman, and I want to thank all of 
you for coming. I know it cannot be easy to be on that side. 
This is not a persecution, this is a learning curve, and I have 
to condemn the other side of the aisle that they dilute the 
fact that this is about October 7th and antisemitism.
    I live about 38 miles away from Kent State University. We 
just had our observation of the anniversary of the shooting. 
The girl that was 18 that got killed, shopped through my 
family's stores. It is very personal to us. In my political 
world, and in my philosophy of life, we celebrate protesting.
    There is nothing wrong with protesting. It is what our 
country is based on by the founders. However, there is a 
difference between protesting and safety. There is a difference 
between protesting and highlighting antisemitism. I think that, 
you know, when we were raised and we are all probably close to 
the same age bracket.
    When we were raised, and we were in high school, and we 
were in college, we heard a phrase calling, ``Never again.'' 
Now the four of you are at the heights of power, and never 
again happens to be right now. We all saw the videos on TV, on 
YouTube, they are right now, I can pull them up on my phone, 
and Harvard Square, when I went to school at Emerson, so I was 
in Boston. I know Harvard Square really well, where literally 
Jewish kids were afraid to go to school. They were pushed on 
the ground, and they were harassed.
    Now, when I was in the Ohio Senate, I dealt with President 
Carter of the Ohio State University, and we had meetings with 
him before the protest, which he allowed to happen, which were 
very safe. Nobody was threatened. The campus was cleaned up, 
and I think the Palestinian protestors did a great job of their 
protesting.
    However, a lot of these universities throughout this 
country have not performed like that. My focus goes to Dr. 
Manuel. Like I said, this is more of a learning curve. I do not 
want you to feel that we are here to persecute you, but I do 
want to do better.
    When we look at, Mr. Manuel, and we look at your 
university, and we look at the reflection on it, police reports 
have that 17-day encampment was allowed, with over 1,000 
submitted complaints, including reports of safety concerns, 
harassment concerns, threats of violence to Jewish students, 
and even several death threats.
    Individuals allegedly threatened to slit the throats of 
Jewish students supporting Israel, allowed faculty members, if 
I am saying her name right, Lila Farrow, who supported the 
release of a terrorist that killed people in Jerusalem, and to 
serve as an advisory to SJB.
    It did not clear the encampments until 5 days after 
negotiations with the leaders broke down. Having said all that, 
what would you do different and from the heart, how can we do 
better because I think hey, listen. We all have concerns for 
everyone that goes to your school, both you know, if they are 
pro-Palestinian, or if they are pro-Jewish.
    How do we do better? How do we make Jewish kids feel safe 
to go to your school in the future?
    Mr. Manuel. Thank you for that question, and I appreciate 
the time to explain. We needed to do better. In our review, we 
understood that the length of time of that encampment created 
dangers. The numbers that you referenced in the end was a 
website that I released to show the community the dangers of 
what were happening in that space.
    We worked with, after the fact, we worked with the Jewish 
United Fund, with Chicago's Metro Halal, with many of our own 
Jewish faculty staff, and students to understand how we could 
be better at creating a culture of compliance. This included 
creating a Jewish alumni group, a Jewish faculty staff 
alliance, working on time, place and manner restrictions.
    Figuring out that we need to do training using that data 
and that website to help people understand the modern 
interpretation of the antisemitism. I admit thoroughly that we 
could do better, and I know that with our changes today, the 
results of a future encampment would be different.
    I would also add, if you give me the time, to say since 
that moment, we have prevented overtakes of our campus by 
outside protestors, and we have a better sense of how to manage 
the balance between the protest and the safety and the 
welcomeness of our campus.
    Mr. Rulli. Truly, I respect and appreciate that response, 
and with that I yield my time back to the Chair.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman, and I thank the 
panel for being here today. It is not whether we agree or 
disagree. It is the fact you are here. We appreciate that fact. 
It has been long. It has been arduous, it has been emotional. 
It has been purposeful, and I will get to that in my closing 
statement, but now I recognize the Ranking Member, my friend 
from Virginia, Mr. Scott, for his closing remarks.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Comments have been made 
about whether or not this is just happening on campus. I would 
like to enter into the record a press release from the ADL 
entitled, ``U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360 percent 
in the Aftermath of the Attack on Israel.''
    According to the latest ADL data, the release makes it 
clear the majority of incidents that ADL tracked, over 75 
percent, happened in places other than college campuses. I 
would like to enter into the record, an NBC News Article, 
``January 6th Rioter in Camp Auschwitz,'' sentenced to 75 days 
in prison.
    Chairman Walberg. Without objection, the articles will be 
accepted.
    [The Information of Mr. Scott follows:]

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    Mr. Scott. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I again 
thank our witnesses for being here today. Today marks the 
eighth time the Committee has held a hearing on antisemitism 
since October 7th. In all that time there has been no concrete 
action to actually protect any students from discrimination.
    Despite my multiple requests in that time, we have held no 
hearings on other forms of hate and discrimination, such as 
racism, Islamophobia, sexism, and violation of Title IX, 
homophobia, or challenges of students with disabilities, all of 
which also pose major problems for students.
    Here we are again, complaining about the problem without 
offering real solutions. All the while, the administration 
ignores due process and takes a chainsaw to the Office of Civil 
Rights, the very office responsible for investigating and 
addressing antisemitism, and putting the Community Relations 
Service at the Department of Justice, also on the chopping 
block.
    That could be very helpful under these circumstances. Our 
priorities must align with the students. The Trump 
administrations dismantling of the Office of Civil Rights, and 
relentless attacks on institutions of higher learning will not 
make students' lives better, and students will pay the price of 
these cuts as schools struggle to function without Federal 
funding.
    The last seven hearings, I will reiterate, physical 
violence, and verbal harassment directed toward students should 
not be tolerated. That said, college campuses have always been 
venues where individuals can debate difficult topics, or you 
might hear opinions which you disagree. It is vitally important 
to protect the sanctity of free speech, and ensure that 
students do not suffer from discrimination, and that is a 
difficult balance to achieve, and that is why dedicated 
investigators are key to keeping campuses both free and safe.
    As Professor Cole said in his written testimony, we must 
tolerate offensive speech, even when listeners experience it as 
deeply harmful, because giving government officials to 
determine whose views can be heard, and whose should be 
silenced, is a greater danger.
    I do not want you to be discriminated against who they are 
or how they worship, but ignoring due process and undermining 
the future of higher education will only make things worse, and 
it does not make Jewish students, or anyone else on campus 
safer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Walberg. I thank the gentleman. Let me State for 
the record, and I wish some of my Democrat colleagues were 
still here to hear me say this. I oppose discrimination of all 
kinds, antisemitism, racism, sexism, discrimination of all 
kinds. I believe this Committee will stand in that same light.
    We are here today talking about antisemitism that has 
wrapped up multiple college and university campuses, and it is 
not just speech. I support free speech and always will. The 
free speech sometimes leads to the results of actions, and that 
is why we are here today and the eight preceding times.
    When Jewish students cannot feel safe, or have the ability 
to experience all that they expect on their university or 
college campus because of antisemitism, anti-Zionism that 
blocks them, including faculty members, that will block them 
from having the meaningful experience that they paid for at the 
very least on their college campuses, or even worse, being beat 
upon and injured as a result of what? Being a Jew.
    That is what we are talking about. That is what these 
hearings are for. They are not for free speech. We believe in 
that. It is not too hard to tell when someone is injured, and 
has a surgery because of that, but it is actions that are 
impacting freedom of education.
    I would suggest as well that the entities that have been 
responsible for civil rights issues on campus have failed. This 
has been developing, OCR and others have not done their job. I 
hope in the process of what this administration is doing, and 
we will be asking questions. We will have an entity that will 
actually function for all students, all faculty on campuses. 
Remember, this happened before this administration took office.
    We want it to end. Any suggestion that this is McCarthy-
like is radically false. We are going to come to a solution, 
and thankfully, I can say as a result of these we are seeing 
campuses around the United States taking action. I thank the 
two campuses here today, DePaul, and Cal Poly, for being able 
to demonstrate, at least in words, and of course we were 
looking for the policy and the outcomes.
    You were able to tell us of mistakes, and now what you are 
doing to remedy that. We wish you all well. For the good of 
this country, we need academic institutions that allow freedom 
of speech, but opportunity to experience it equally like all 
other students on campus, regardless of who you are, where you 
come from, your nationality, your gender, your faith.
    It is sad that we have seen the education of college 
students hindered far too often. In this case the hearing was 
on antisemitic disruptions. The blocking of access to the 
buildings, interruption of lectures, hateful, violent slogans 
that were put in place to incite violence, not just free 
speech.
    We have heard today of some modest changes made in recent 
months. We want them to be meaningful, but meaningful 
accountability means taking the risk of being unpopular and 
asking hard questions. Yes, it was passionate today. Sometimes 
it was emotional, I get that.
    At least on this side of the aisle we are taking it in a 
significant, meaningful and purposeful way, and I would expect 
that a majority of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle 
take it purposeful as well. Hard decisions have to take place. 
We are wishing you success. We will be watching, and I hope we 
will be watching other universities and colleges around this 
country also saying I do not want to be part of the problem.
    I am going to take the example of what is going on in our 
eight hearings, and we will work for change as well, so that 
all students, those who come on a visa, or those who have been 
blessed, who have been blessed beyond measure to be born here 
as part of this great American experiment.
    We will all experience academic freedom and greater 
opportunity in the future. I thank you. I thank you for being 
here today. I thank you to my colleagues on both sides of the 
aisle and being that there is no further action to be taken, 
the hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 1:35 p.m., the Education and Workforce 
Committee was adjourned.]

    [Additional submissions from Chairman Walberg follows:]

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    [Additional submissions from Rep. Omar follows:]

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